S5:08:121: The Mysterious Death of Rebecca Zahou

Season 5 Episode 8: The Mysterious Death of Rebecca Zahou

[00:00:00] 

Welcome to a day with crime podcast, where a crime a day keeps the doctor away. All your host David and Geneva McClam 

going on everybody. And welcome to another episode of a day where crime we are. Your hosts, David, 

And Geneva, 

you are listening to season five, episode eight, total case number 121 Geneva. How are you doing?

I'm doing?

great that, oh, then it's very rainy outside, which is gross. Could you not warmed up? But now it's raining. So I can't even go outside. How are you? 

Doing just fine. I don't have no rain. You know, Tony, Tony, Tony wrote a song years ago, said it never rains in Southern California. I still say, I said Sue them for that. Cause it does rain down here sometimes. [00:01:00] Otherwise we all doing well. Waiting for this summer heat to come in, which is rolling in fast.

So in for another desert summer. All right guys. So we hope you are doing well today, today, we are going to talk about a case that is still in the headlines because it is very controversial. There has been a number of stories written about it and shows. Hulu, or I should say 2020 did one called mystery at the mansion oxygen did one called death at the mansion.

And one of my favorite true crime writers, which if you are a true crime reader, you guys will know who she is. That is Ann Rule.. She's also written a book about it. which is called fatal friends and [00:02:00] deadly neighbors and other true cases. There's a number of true cases in that book, but she does talk about this case we're doing today case today is the mysterious death of Rebecca Zahou Geneva.

You ready to tackle Rebecca Zahou today?

As ready as i'll ever be 

always the answer. All right , you guys are already know, we do use Wikipedia. You guys can follow along and then we'll fill in anything that seems to be missing. So Rebecca Zahou was born March 15th, 1979. She was of Burmese immigrant origin, and she was born and follow them. Chin, state, a town in the chin Hills and Northwestern Burma to her father.

Thing. And mother Zune, 10 of par, who was also was known as Pari after living in Nepal and Germany. [00:03:00] Rebecca moved to the United States about 10 years before her death. So also was reported that Rebecca Zahou's family was pretty much royalty over in Burmese as well. Rebecca came from a family of 10 ethnicity and was raised as a Protestant, her parents and most family members live in St.

Joseph, Missouri. She has an older sister. Mary Zahou Larner a younger sister show him harass who lives in Germany in a teenage sister, Zina Zahou among other siblings. Unfortunately there a little bit of bad that went along with Rebecca because in 2009 in August, she was arrested for shoplifting after stealing a $1,000 worth of jewelry from a Macy's in Phoenix, Arizona, to which she did plead guilty in 2002, she married then 36 year old nursing student, Neil [00:04:00] Lipa of Scottsdale Arizona.

They divorced February of 2011. And she worked as an ophthalmology technician until quitting in December of 2010. In 2008, Rebecca did begin dating Jonah Shacknai, who is the CEO of Medix pharmaceutical. And while she was still married to the Lupa Shacknai position that medics made him the ninth highest paid CEO in Arizona, which earned him $6.4 million in 2010.

He had two previous marriages, his first marriage to Kimberley James resulted in divorce and the three-year-old custody fight over the couple's two children, which he had a son named Maxfield, Aaron Shacknai, who was born June 7th, 2005 with his second wife, Dena Romano Maxfield was also known as max.

All of that was important. [00:05:00] Because of what happened to Rebecca and what happened before, what took place with her? So it all began with, unfortunately Max's death. The little man we just talked about up here on July 11th, 2011, Rebecca max, and Rebecca's teenage sister Zena were at the sprinkles mansion in Coronado, California, which Jonah Shacknai use as a summer estate.

Yeah. At some point during that day, Maxfield face first over a second floor, Bannister suffering injuries to his spinal cord and facial bones. The former of which affected his heart rate and breathing. Rebecca said she was in the bathroom at the time and she found max moments later and Zina called 9 1 1 max was not breathing and unresponsive and was taken to Rady children's hospital in San Diego.

Unfortunately, he passed away on July [00:06:00] 16th due to brain damage caused by oxygen deprivation resulting from his injuries on July 26. Investigators ruled Max's death as an accident, speculating that he somehow. However, a trauma doctor who examined the child prior to his death and autopsy stated to police that he did not believe the injuries from his fall were consistent with the cardiac arrest and brain swelling experienced by him.

suggesting that max may have suffocated prior to his fault. Now let's talk a little bit about max and what happened there. Now, max was in. Rebecca's care at the time. I believe Jonah had already went off to do his thing at the gym. The mom did not live there being Dena and Zina, who is Rebecca sister that keeps coming up, was visiting in town at that point.

Now at the time of Max's death, they were in two separate places in the [00:07:00] house. The sparkles mansion is huge. So you can be on one end of that mansion and not know what's going on on the other end. And that's what happened. So Zina never saw anything that happened that led up to his death. Now, Rebecca is reported to be a very gentle soul.

She loved max to death. She had no children of her own. They were joined at the bone and it is good to say that Dina who was Max's mother.. Well, really didn't approve of that. And after max fell to his death, or got him out and sent him to the hospital, Rebecca was known to have said that Dina is going to kill me.

So Geneva, knowing that we know about Rebecca and Max's death, do you feel that she did anything to max to cause his death because he remember his mother has come out and said that she does not believe it was an accident that she believes that [00:08:00] max was killed. What's your thoughts on that?

I don't know. I'm conflicted on this because we have one doctor that?

says that there was evidence of suffocation before death. Right. 

Correct.

Right. But I feel like we also have to remember that there was a whole other person in the house, so. I think we had to ask ourselves if Rebecca would have been able to get away with doing something to max, her sister in the house. 

Well, what they're speculating too is if she did kill him now, the, the strangulation could have happened either way, right? Because one doctor saying that it was a trip, he tripped over something. So some people will say, well, he tripped to someone around his neck and it strangled him. And then again, remember Zena, who was the only other person in the house was across the mansion, according to her.

So they're saying that, well, she could have just choked him,[00:09:00] and suffocated him before Zina came over and then she calls the uproar. I don't see it because Rebecca Zahou was very, I don't wanna say fragile, but she was a small person. And to suffocate somebody. I would think that there would be evidence of something if she used anything, right?

Say like a pillow or something of that nature. If, even if she was to cover his mouth with her hand, I mean, I just think that takes a long time to do, you know, you gotta have that down, perfectly things of that nature. I don't feel like max was murdered. I do think that it was an accident. We will never know how that accident happend

 Somebody saying that he tripped and went over the banister, but his mother is alluding to, he was pushed over. So do you feel like that she could have killed him? knowing we know.

Anything is possible. I feel like we're not going to get true answers to Max's death so [00:10:00] I just don't feel like I have and I did look into his desk because I was like, well, I need to have like a definitive answer to this. I don't know how I feel. I don't feel like I have enough information to say she definitely did it, or she definitely did it.

don't know. 

Well, I will go ahead and be the on Poplar one. There's no way she killed Max. For one, you gotta have something against a child to want to kill a child that way they use the term suffocation. So, and there was nothing around. We want to look at all the evidence that we bought to talk about.

There was nothing around that suggested that there was any type of suffocation tool, no plastic bag, no sheet, no pillow, none of that. I think that it was an accident, which kind of led to this. So what happened to Rebecca on July 12th 2010 Rebecca dropped off Zina at the airport for her flight back to Missouri and then picked up Joseph Shacknai's brother, Adam. No. What you need to understand about that is after [00:11:00] Max fell here's another reason why I say I don't believe she killed him. She was very, very, very grief stricken. She actually ended Zena's visit to her early. So she dropped her off at the airport the next day and told her that she needed to go back home because she needed to be with Jonah at this time.

And with max to figure out what is going on. So from that point on, she went and dropped her off at the airport.

Then she went and picked up Jonah's brother Adam. Now who just arrived on a flight from Memphis, Tennessee, Rebecca, Jonah, and Adam ate dinner with a friend named Howard that evening, Rebecca and Adam returned to the sprinkles mansion. While Jonah reportedly kept a vigil at Max's bedside with the child's mother.

Dina Romano. He would leave the hospital to [00:12:00] recuperate at a nearby or Ronald McDonald house. And there were reports of loud music coming from the sprinkles mansion later that night. So another part that they leave out is yes, Adam flew in or right away after he was called about max had had a fall Dina.

 Max's mother also flew in right away around that same time. On the morning of July 13th at roughly 6:45 AM. Adam stated that he found Rebecca's nude body hanging from a balcony with her wrists and ankles bound in her hands behind her back. He called 9 1 1 at 6:48 AM. Then sent a text message to his brother to inform him of the news.

He cut down Rebecca's body before the police arrived and medics attempted to revive her, but pronounced her dead at the scene. Police initiated forensic and toxicology testing on her body as part of an autopsy to determine the [00:13:00] cause of death, speculations of foul play began early on in the case.

However, investigators weren't able to find any other DNA at the scene besides Rebecca's I, September 2nd, the San Diego county Sheriff's department formally announced their founding that Rebecca. commited Suicide. Now, this is where we're going to probably spend the bulk of our discussion that, because that ladies and gentlemen is the controversy that has been the controversy since 2011, is whether Rebecca committed suicide.

Her sister, Mary has been living in dying to prove and get her case reopened to prove that it was not suicide, that it was a murder so before I give you my thoughts on that Geneva, let's start with you. So we've done a deep dive into this case. I don't know about you, but I've watched both oxygen and [00:14:00] 2020 account.

Haven't gotten a chance to read my favorite authors book yet, but I will, but I read many, many, many articles on this as I'm sure you have. What do you think? So with the way she was killed, The way she committed suicide, quote, unquote, the note on the door that said she saved him. Can you save her that mysteriously appeared there.

Do you think from the way her hands was tied, her feet was bound. And for what certain forensic people were saying, which I'll get to that in a minute, do you think Rebecca is, or how committed to it?

No. Okay. So first of all, how are you going to commit suicide with your hands tied behind your back? That's first? My other thing is this. I did quite a bit of research on this and apparently women have a tendency women with long hair. Okay. Or people with long hair. [00:15:00] We have a tendency to. Like if we put a shirt on or a, a jacket or a purse or something that goes over our neck, that would catch our hair, we tend to pull our hair out whatever that is.

 reportedly her hair was still underneath the noose, so. But also her hands were behind her back. 

So, what I'll say is I do not believe that there's any way she committed suicide. Let me tell you why I say that. So strongly. So when the oxygen series was done on her, they set out to prove that there was no way that she could do this. So to do this, they called in a couple of experts. I'll give you one of the name of the experts.

Now, his name was Paul holes. Now, if you don't know who Paul holes is, I'm actually reading his book right now called unmatched my life solving [00:16:00] America's cold cases it is not out yet until, the next couple of weeks. So our middle of April, but I got it on an arc for those who don't read an arc is an advanced readers copy.

We're just sometime where we get so that authors can know what the public is thinking about their book before it's released. Paul holes is a very well-known criminologist. He also was instrumental in catching the golden state killer. So when they called him in. He said there is absolutely no way that she would have been able to do that.

Especially if you look at the knots that was tied. Now the state set out to try to prove, or to say the Sheriff's department, that it is very possible that someone could tie their hands behind their back and lead to the death. So they had a woman sit down with a red rope. And tie our hands together and then she slipped her hands out and then put her hands behind her back and then put her hands in and then synched it up.

Okay. And they said, this [00:17:00] is what Rebecca Zahou did, what, if you look at the knot that she tied versus the knots that was tied, no way you can do that. The other thing that throws people off is that Rebecca Zahou was completely nude when she lived to her death. Okay. Asian people is very, very personal.

Even her sister said in our culture, she would have never done that because she would know somebody from the family would have had to find that or see that. And she would have been mortified that that would have happened. So I don't believe it for that way. They also tried to use a book that said that I guess something to do with witchcraft.

And in this book it had a nude lady who was tying these same knots, supposedly behind her back and then jumped off to her death. That was also there. So they think it was staged. So if it wasn't her that committed suicide, what happened to her? Well, in my belief, in the belief of her family and believe of [00:18:00] anybody else who's watched this case, I believe Adam Shacknai is the one who committed this murder.

Is that what you believe Geneva, do you think Adam Shacknai has something to do with Rebecca Zahou's murder.

Me either had to be him or the mom. I feel, I don't feel like anyone else had a motive do it. 

Also been both of them, 

but I feel like he had the most, access. 

I thought it was both of them too until okay. Right. Because let's go back. Dina. Didn't like Rebecca, she was jealous of the fact that she was spending time with max the accident with max happend up under Rebecca's watch. And Rebecca repeatedly said, well, she's going to kill me. I thought that her and Nina talk about her.

Dina has a twin sister named Nina, both came down. I thought Dina. And Adam has something to do with it [00:19:00] until they cleared Dina and the way they cleared Dina wasn't by word of mouth. It was by video tape. So at the time of Rebecca's death, they showed that she was walking into the hospital and that she was with max and Jonah.

So there was no way that she could committed the murder of Rebecca Zahou and that's how come the Sheriff's department cleared her.

Okay. So now I saw that, but did we believe she didn't know about it? See, because there's a difference between things and actually doing them. 

Cause that's where I'm a little conflicted. Now the twin sister, I didn't really necessarily think she had anything to do with it. It was, you know, the mom and then that the mom and the husband, right.

 But like, do we think that she knew what was going to happen? 

That's been conflicting to me too, because she did jump on Adam's side rather quick. The one thing that people need to know is that they tried to brush Rebecca's death away as quickly as possible. So it is very possible she could have known [00:20:00] do I think though, looking at Dina's personality, that she would have known that she would have not been prone to give up something.

That's the only thing that makes me think maybe she didn't know because they went after her and Nina real hard I mean, they pretty much was like gonna get ready to put one, to put cuffs on and wrap them up and put them in there. So I'm like if they wouldn't have found out that she came into that camera, if she did know what she had given Adam up,

 But here, the thing that we do, we would do crazy things for our kids. 

That's true.

because here's what I had to think about, because I was like, okay, our mom. So if someone diesel, if I thought that someone did something to my child, there was also in their death. And then someone else did something to the person that I thought did something to my child that resulted in my child's death. Would I give them up so easily? And I have a listen y'all I'm gonna tell you now, like my conscience, is weak. Okay. I see, I don't think I could even [00:21:00] commit a murder, in self-defense it's like an accidental harming someone without turning myself in. Okay. I'm coming from that, from that perspective. Cause I feel like when it comes to your kids, like if you really think someone did something to your kids, that's a whole different thing. Like, I don't want to be married to Rebecca anymore, I don't want to pay for a divorce. So I'm going to kill her.

 This would be more of a like, well, we are convinced that she did something to max, so I'm going to do something to her. Like revenge That's the only reason that I willing to even be like, even with her personality. Cause I agree with you, but I feel like because it involved her kid and she already harbored feelings around being around max and all that stuff. I don't know, man. I don't know. 

Here's the other thing [00:22:00] to look at, uh, if she was murdered or not, and then I'm gonna put a theory out there that I know is going to sound cold, but we gotta look at this theory because of how things. So everybody that wants to say Rebecca committed suicide is saying, because she was so overwhelmed with grief or what happened to max and she felt responsible that she committed suicide.

Max didn't die until after Rebecca committed suicide. So how was it that she did not know that he could have recovered. Max died three days after Rebecca committed suicide. So to me, that strikes me odd. Even if an accident did take place and I was going to commit suicide, I would say, man, it's my fault.

And if he dies, he was going to take my life, but I'm wait to see if he going to die. First. He was still on machines and he was still alive at that point. [00:23:00] That's what makes a suspicious. When you think that she would wait to see what the outcome would be before she decided to do something that permanent.

Okay, so correct me if I'm wrong, but I'm pretty sure he was on my support and was brain dead. By the time that she died, so yeah, like there was a slim chance that he could have recovered.

That's why I'm saying, I feel like Jonah and right? feel like they were like, well, he's going to die. So we should just get rid of her. But like, then we have asked ourselves, would they have felt any remorse if he had survived? 

Okay. So as messed up as this sounds, if the investigators and the Sheriff's department did their job, the theory I'm about to give you would have had to pop up. One of both max and Rebecca was killed. Now, hear this out. Max gets killed first by quote unquote and action. [00:24:00] Person feeling that Rebecca is going because the way she feels about max would be so grief stricken behind it, that it would not be impossible for anybody to believe that maybe she took her all life because she felt responsible.

If you look at the days with this happens, max goes down first. The next day, they're calling the ambulance for. And Adam shacked down his nine one, one call said, you know, the place, the same house you came and got the little boy yesterday. So as gruesome as the sound, whatever, it was an elaborate plan that they wanted to get rid of Rebecca.

But poor max was collateral damage because they had to come up with some way of saying she committed suicide. And everybody knew that she wouldn't be just jumping off a balcony. If there was nothing wrong, do you think that could be a possibility that somebody set up to take [00:25:00] max and Rebecca out, but to put it down that Rebecca committed suicide, because she felt responsible the way it was done, Max's death comes out as an accident.

Nobody's even questioning that anymore. They're just saying flight accident, what you think.

Okay. Well, the whole motive of taking max out is to what hope that he survives getting thrown off a balcony or smothered or whatever happened because here's my problem with this. What is the motive of killing max other than to try to set up Rebecca, because that's risky,

That means you have to have some kind of, anamosity towards that child. This is why like I'm on the fence about whether I think.

Rebecca did anything to him because I don't feel like she had that much anamosity towards this kid to do that. You know what I'm saying? So, that's where I'm conflicted.

Do. I think we're going to get answers to what happened to me. [00:26:00] Absolutely not, but I don't have enough information to say for sure that it was an accident or someone did something to him. My problem with this is it. You would have to be callous enough to be able to risk the child, not surviving order to set up the adult.

That's where I'm having a problem 

so switch your mind to do. One of max was collateral damage. What of the accident with horribly wrong? Whatever. He was only meant to trip hurt himself to a degree on the banister without going over the banister. But whoever did this over calculated that. So in the end, max was only supposed to come up injured, not injured for life, no brain damage, no spinal cord there.

None of that just injured from a fall. But Rebecca would feel guilty enough to kill herself. So that would give them room to go in and take her out and use the accident.

I [00:27:00] still feel like you have to calculate for risk. If you're going to set someone else up, like if you're going to set someone up by using someone else, whether that's an adult, a child, a dog, it doesn't matter if you're going to set someone up by using someone or something else you have to calculate for risks.

So either way person had you calculate that there was going to be some kind of risk taken on this child's life. 

Now be honest, other than the most notorious serial killers that we did. How many criminals do, you know, sit down and 

calculate risk. They dumped to the point to where they 

never do.

 Okay. But it, but if we believe that it was his father or his mother that was involved in this. 

I don't believe Jonah was involved. 

I think it was all dina

okay. But, okay. So we're going to believe that the mother was involved in the max part. She would have to hate her kid, not Rebecca in order [00:28:00] to do it that way and not calculate. 

See because the only motive for anyone to want to take Rebecca out would have been Dina or the other one I'll give you when we get to the end about Adam, but because Dina was known to be jealous of Rebecca. Even Jonah himself said they didn't really get along. It wasn't a good relationship. And the remark that she made, that she was going to kill her.

Alright. That's only theory one, before we go to theory 2 let me preface it with this. So if you guys didn't know the case, she was bound by her ankles. He was bound by her wrist. She had to hop her way to the balcony here comes point number two, that makes it a little bit. She had to hop her way to the balcony while her feet was bound.

Okay. So I want you guys to get this pigeon in head. She was completely bound hands behind, back ankles bound by the same rope. Totally [00:29:00] nude has to hop over to the balcony and throw herself over the balcony. Now, everybody that I've watched that looked at this case said that she would have had no other option

but to go head first, which is true. So she'd have to lean over the balcony and let herself go head first. Her skull was not crushed. Okay. Even from 10 feet, full body weight coming down, if you're going to good dump directly on your head, first, there should be some type of brain trauma or fractures in the skull or whatever that somebody like, uh, autopsy could come back and say, or corner.

She died the head trauma, because here's what happened. She failed. Do you think that she's able to throw herself over the balcony like that completely bound and let's point out that the knots were nautical knots. Okay. And they were tight. So I don't see [00:30:00] nobody being able to tie themselves up nautical, meaning that somebody who ran a boat or a captain of a boat or worked on a dock

these are the knots they would use to ensure that the boat that they're anchoring is not going to light on tie stuff and go away. These are very complex knots and they were all the way through her ropes on her wrist and her legs that further must be know or makes me believe she didn't next kill herself.

So do you think that not that you saw any person would be able to tie those on their own self, still make it to a balcony window and just throw them.

No. I believe that she killed herself to begin with. 

Okay. So then that brings up brother, Adam Shacknai. Now Adam Shacknai was there that night. He was supposedly in another area of the house. According to him, he didn't know what happened to he came over and found Rebecca there with which he called 911 so, let me give you a little things about [00:31:00] Rebecca and Adam.

It has been said that Adam has made sexual advances towards Rebecca and was rebuffed before in the past. Some people think that this could have led up to the murder of Rebecca. What do you think about that? You think.

 So as possible, there are putting them in. They don't know how to take no for an answer. 

so to further on with that, before we get back to Adam, speaking of head trauma, so like me, you watch the Dr. Phil show when Dina was. The one part that nobody talks about is what also happened during that show, which is Mary, Rebecca sister, and Rebecca's family had her body exumed live on TV. So on that Dr.

Phil special, they wouldn't have her body exume they called in my man. If you guys don't know him, look him up. He's been all over the place. His name is Cyril Wecht. He is the most known. [00:32:00] In his business for looking at bodies and telling you what happened. Cyril Wecht came back and said due to the autopsy, there was four cracks in her skull that resembled that somebody had hit her in the back of the head after looking at her whole body.

Again, he's coming back now and said that there is no way he would be able to classify that as a suicide. It looked like that she was killed. I agree with Cyril Wecht now I'm not. So also Dena may no qualms to tell the world that she really felt like max was killed. She would never say Rebecca did it, but if you look at her demeanor, that's what she was alluding to in my opinion.

So here is. One of the detectives who didn't work this case, but they asked him what he thinks happened. Here's what he said. And I kind of [00:33:00] agreed. He thinks that that night, Adam Shacknai and I went over to the other side of the house where Rebecca was something went down in a fight ensued. Now being that she was naked, as he said, we will never know what the true facts is, but being that she was naked either.

She was in the middle of changing clothes and had a rope. And get ready to go to the shower or she was coming out of the shower. Their belief is some type of sexual path was made. It was rebuffed, a fight broke out. Adam Shacknai hits her in the back of the head with a blunt object was knocks her down and knocks her out.

Then he proceeds to tie her up and throws her off of the balcony to make it look like that it was a suicide. Also, there was a book that dealt with witchcraft in her room. As I said, that did have a woman being tied. He tried to resemble those knots, but [00:34:00] use not uncle knots for, he threw her over when they did a scrub, the computers that Adam Shacknai use there was various, searches done for Asian women being bound, as well as porn that dealt with that subject.

So they think that he was already planning that. So being that that's what they feel that happened to Rebecca. Do you agree with that? Or what do you think the version would be.

I mean, I think that that works fine. It's just that, I don't know. Like I, but if that's the version of events That we're using, then what was, what was Max?

 That is a part of this case that irritates me the most is. No one is talking about Max's case anymore. So it's been accepted that max was just done up by an accident. And when they came back with that, everybody's accepted that and then kind of Rebecca's death kind of overshadowed that because of the [00:35:00] manner in which she was taken out.

So in the record books, it has went down that Max's death was completely 100% an accident. And they want to classify Zahou's as a suicide. Because if, if you watch it, I don't know if you've seen the 20, 21, but I wanted to smack the dude. The guy from the Sheriff's department was actually had a board with a pointer and he was pointing out all of the reasons why this was a suicidal situation and everybody was sitting there going everything you just said makes absolutely no sense

so max has ruled forever as an accident. Like the lady at the end of the things that we will never know what really happened with max or Rebecca's death, unless somebody comes forward and says, this is what happened.

So being in that evidence, like I said, she also had throat trauma. So the second autopsy, as I said, was done by Cyril Wecht. He's a pathology. And then I was at her family's request and he testified that he believed fractures in [00:36:00] Rebecca's throat were caused by manual strangulation, not by suicidal hanging.

He further stated that he thought Rebecca's death was a homicide and attorney for Rebecca's family stated that other inaccuracies were found with the Sheriff's department investigation, including evidence that indicated that Rebecca was sexually assaulted before her death. She was not sexually assaulted.

Okay. So it never got that far that didn't take place. And even, so that means that he wasn't that sick, that he tried to do something after the fact. But here is the reason why they say she committed suicide and see if this makes any sense to you. According to the Sheriff's department, they had to rule it a suicide because there was no prints of anybody else in the room.

But Rebecca's now let this strike you. How was there no prints of Adam Shacknai I in the room [00:37:00] when he told the 911 operator that he found her and he cut her down before the Sheriff's office came, when there be prints on the rope and the knife that was still in the room that he used.

 But they believed him that he 

cut her 

down. Right. So they're just saying in the room 

immediately, there 

were

yeah, they, they found no praise when they got. And on the nine 11 call, he said, I have cut her down. Also, there are shoes that you can buy, especially if you know anything about martial arts supplies that will leave no prints on the ground or no prints in the house. There are solid black shoes. I call them ninja shoes and what people use, you know, they say they ninja, they sneak in behind people.

Those won't leave any prints. But no prints at all, except of Rebecca's. How does that grab you?

I get it smell like bleach when they 

They found [00:38:00] no bleach, but the investigator who is saying that he thinks that she, that he killed her, says that he thinks that Adam Shacknai wiped down road. The reason why that don't make any sense unless he was this careful is then why would Rebecca's prints remain? 

He could've. 

right. You wore gloves at the time that he tied the rope. He had Rebecca touched the rope somehow beforehand, because her fingers are found on the rope and he's wearing gloves all the way through the rest of that. When he came over to do that, ' cause the other weird thing too, is if I came to your house just to visit and I was there just a couple of hours, my DNA would be in that house somewhere.

 Unless you guys went through with Clorox and cleaned everything. I've touched your door knobs. I've been sitting on your couch, I've opened your front door. So somehow, if something went down, they going say, Hey, we got these prints from somebody. We gotta check. It's just not going to be.

My prints are [00:39:00] gone. He's been in Rebecca's room before this time and that side of the house. Hey fine. No prints at all.

He would've had to either worn gloves or. We've wiped stuff down and been skilled enough to wipe it down in such a way that her stuff was still that her prints were still there. I'm thinking he wore gloves and just discarded the gloves before they got.

So unfortunately folks, we can speculate about it all day, but we're never going to know what truly happened but to me, it makes a bunch of nonsense that somebody is going to tie themselves up. Plus if you look at the way that suicide usually is done, the person committing suicide does not want to really create any situation, that's going to bring attention to themselves.

They kind of want to do it and be gone. They don't want nobody to be Ooh, and on and all this kind of stuff. The second thing is they definitely don't want anybody to feel like they're responsible for what. And the only note that was left behind is that cryptic one that was on the wall [00:40:00] that was written in paint, which was smart because there has been some handwriting experts that said that you can't compare what was written in paint to what somebody would write with a pen or a pencil is not going to come out. So the last part about that is what if I told you that Adam Shacknai took a lie detector test and the lie detector test came out in conclusive.

What a surprise. 

So somehow that means folks that he was right on the line of where they can't determine he was lying or telling the truth. So it was inconclusive as means there is a possibility. That he knew exactly what was going on. All right. So what happened after these two individuals unfortunately passed away? So on the public and the media both their dares to intense public and media scrutiny on July 14th, 2011 MediSYS, which is Jonah's [00:41:00] company had his sharpers one day declining stock prices February.

News of the investigations received international coverage in various countries, including Brazil, New Zealand, Finland, Spain, and the UK, and through all July and August and September various Forbes writers, including true crime writer, Kathy Scott and lawyer Victoria pinch on express doubts about the investigations conclusions pinch on described the ruling as an embarrassing public blunder.

And the daily beast publish a column by trial lawyer, Roy Black, in which he criticized half-baked theories about Rebecca's death in particular stating the lack of DNA evidence. And he said, quote, how could anyone do all this without leaving behind a scintilla, a microscopic evidence in quote.

And then he comes back to say that they would have had to been wearing a full rubber. Or some sort of [00:42:00] spacesuit and levitated over the scene on September 19th, 2011, it was reported that the local Cornado author, Kathleen McKenna would be writing a book on the case or can express doubts. Deborah Rebecca's death was a suicide.

The other thing with that is we have to understand who we're dealing with. We're dealing with Jonah Shaknai. He was very rich. Down there. And it said because of his money and influence, this is why this got swept up so quickly, to be honest with each other, the police did a horrible job. They didn't do half of what they should've done in investigating this murder.

They wanted to run with the suicide theory and they did everything they could to convince everybody that it was suicide. I do believe in myself that the people down there really don't believe that she committed suicide. Because if you look at how it was done there, no way that took place. So Geneva, what is your final thoughts on the mysterious death [00:43:00] of Rebecca Zahou 

Honestly, I ain't nothing mysterious about it. I mean, I feel like she was murdered, but I also feel like she's not going to get justice. So I also feel like we're not really going to know ever what actually happened to max, which that's sad cause he was a child. So if he was used collateral damage, I hope that whoever did that, I hope there's an. Warm spot in the underworld for them just saying. But you know, I'm sad for max because like, why did he die? If it was an accident that's tragic. If somebody did it on purpose, like I said, there's a special place for you as far as Rebecca. I feel like, regardless of whether what happened to Max's is an accident or not or not, that was the catalyst to why she is dead. What are your 

final thoughts? 

Well, I definitely do not believe that Rebecca is a, how had [00:44:00] anything to do with Max's death? I do believe no matter how it happened, he was killed by a freak accident that she had no control over. The one part, I didn't say I say now, 

Adam Shacknai was found guilty of Rebecca's death in a civil case. Now, the one thing I don't understand about that is after he was convicted of it and he was ordered to pay $5.1 million judgment to Rebecca's family. Rebecca, his family came back and made a settlement deal with insurance company that totally removed the verdict off of Adam Shacknai

they don't say how much that they settled for some people saying that they still have $1 million, but we don't know that for sure. But all we do know is that Adam Shacknai is no longer responsible for that because that erased the verdict from him. I do believe that [00:45:00] Rebecca Zahou was murdered. Anybody that has done into this case, I don't think there's any of the verdict.

You can come. Adam Shacknai got away with it. I don't really know what Dina's part of it is. I hope to God that she didn't know anything about it, but like you heard me and Geneva discuss anything is possible, especially with the way the relationship between her and Rebecca went in the fear that came across Rebecca's eyes and my mouth, when she said she's going to kill me.

Totally understand that if something happened to one of my kids too, and they fell from banister on y'all care, I'm gonna want to know what happened. But I'm not, hopefully you don't put the fear in you that I'm going to come back and kill you. And Rebecca was very petrified of that when it came to Dina.

So. It's not considered a cold case because since the police department said that Max died of an accident and Rebecca died of suicide. As far as they're concerned, the case is closed. Her sister, Mary is still pushing for them to reopen the case. So don't be surprised if this is not the last [00:46:00] time that we talk about Rebecca's, Zahou, because, the way that Mary's going as strong as she is eventually, I think somebody is going to look at it and say, reopen the case.

And she wants it to be reclassified as what we believe that it is a homicide, but for all intents and purposes, right now, we used to get a dipstick, get of Rebecca's a, how it would say suicide. So I hope that whoever is responsible for this gets found out and I hope they get what they justly deserve to get may Rebecca and max rest in peace.

All right guys. Well, that does it for this case this week. We hope that you enjoyed it as much as you could. Geneva, do you have any shout outs this week?

Not this week?

Do you have any shadows? 

I actually do

shout out a book. Y'all. I know that we've been doing a lot of books lately, but that's because, and [00:47:00] even I, we read a whole lot. We come across these great books that we feel like we should let you guys know. So the book today is called madman in the woods by Jamie Gehring at the time that you hear this, it will only be a few days before the book is actually released.

It releases April 19th. I have it on an advanced readers. And it is about what I think is clearly the best account of what Ted Kaczynski, the Unabomber was like, you see Jamie Gehring the author actually lived just feet from Ted Kaczynski, her grandfather actually rented land to Ted way back in the seventies.

Before he was the Unabomber, but he was very odd even then. So if you guys want to know more about Ted Kaczynski, what it's like to live next to him, what it was really like when they finally [00:48:00] captured him from somebody who was there or who spent more than 20 years with this guy on their property, you guys want to go pick up madman in the woods by Jamie, Gehring for what I can tell this is her first book.

Boy, let me tell you. I've learned more about Ted Kaczynski reading her book than I have anything else. And she goes so deep into it that she actually has pages of his journal that he was writing that's in this book, police reports, things that he said about certain bombings that he actually did.

So go check that out. Madman in the woods, coming out. April 19th.

Yeah. All right, Godspeed. Thank you for tuning in this one. We know you have many, many, many choices and true crime podcasts. We are just happy that for the last three and a half years, [00:49:00] we have been one of your choices. Don't forget if you want the easiest way to get ahold of Geneva and myself and find out everything else about these wonderful cases, make sure that you do.

Go sign up and it has to be a part of our discord. Once again, we thank you for tuning in. We could not do this podcast without you. We appreciate every one of you that listens to us each and every week. And if you are new, welcome, we hope you are being safe out there. Take care of yourself. Be good to yourself and to each other.

And as always don't commit any crimes out there. 

So you don't end up on our podcast. Thank you for listening to a deal with crime artwork created by Geneva McClam mixing and editing done by David McClam. Join us on our website, www.adaywithcrime.com and email us at, A, adaywithcrime@gmail.Com where you can subscribe, [00:50:00] learn ways to support the show and get access to our social media networks.

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