103. A Pulse Check on LGBTQ+ Healthcare (with Max Austin)

Guest Opener (0:00)

Max Austin

My partner at the time was training as the first male midwife in the area. It was really high profile actually. And everyone knew him and they knew me.

And then one night, he met me after a late shift and said only three things: I'm HIV positive, the hospital had found out, and we've got to go into hiding for our own protection.

Episode Introduction (0:44)

Rob Loveless

Hello, my LGBTQuties, and welcome back to another episode of A Jaded Gay. I'm Rob Loveless and today I am a non-jaded gay because I recently joined Stonewall in Motion in Philly, which is the local gay running group here.

I was a little nervous, because I've never really done like rec sports or, like, you know, group exercise, stuff like that. I have terrible hand-eye coordination, but I can run. So yesterday was actually our first run. And it was really great.

One, it was great to get outside and run again. Because it's been about two years since I ran outside. You know, when I was in Pittsburgh, I'd run outside. But with the move last year and living in an area that was kind of like unfamiliar and trying to buy a house and all those things, running just did not pan out. So, I was excited to actually, you know, one, run again, but two, meet other people in the community here in Philly.

Everyone was super nice. Great run. Afterwards, we all got coffee and just hung out. And funny enough, there was a guy there that I was talking to who was super nice. And he was telling me that two of his friends live in a certain neighborhood that we were in. And when he kind of told me about like the vicinity of where they were at, I realized, I'm like, oh, are you talking about so and so? Who are friends of mine.

Not only do we have the same friends in common, he and I actually met each other at their Fourth of July party last year. So small world in Philadelphia. But like I said, it was a great time. I'm really excited for the season and to continue running and getting to know other people in the community here. So yeah.

But shifting gears a bit getting into today's episode. I am very excited to have a special guest on today.

He is a debut author here to talk about his book, which details his experiences as an LGBTQ+ healthcare professional of over 30 years and through the HIV and AIDS epidemic. So very excited to bring him on to talk about that.

But before we get into it, let's pull our tarot card.

Tarot (2:35)

Rob Loveless

So, the card for this episode is the King of Cups in reverse. It's a Minor Arcana card. So, it's more about the day-to-day changes. Cups is tied to the element of water, which is representative of emotions. So, you can think about letting your emotions flow like water.

It's feminine energy, so it's asking us to reflect and meditate. And the king is the final card in this suit. So, it's representing the end or completion of a cycle.

It's also the fourteenth card in the Cups suit. So, when we add those together, we get five, which is tied to change, instability, and loss. And five is sometimes considered to be the conflict number.

So, when we draw the King of Cups in reverse, it's signaling that there might be shaky boundaries or emotional instability around us. Specifically, we may be working through emotions stored in our subconscious. So, we may be more prone to emotional upset and drama.

You know, we might be more sensitive, and others may push our buttons too easily or annoy us because of that. But it's important that we don't withdraw emotionally and shut everyone out. Instead, we need to reflect on what we need and what boundaries we need to set. So that way, we can continue working through our emotions without being hurt by those around us.

But doing so in a way that we're not repressing our emotions or isolating ourselves.

Guest Introduction (3:48)

Rob Loveless

So, with that being said, let's get into the episode. He is a fellow Spectrum Books author, and his memoir, How Can We Be Wrong?, was recently published.

Please welcome Max Austin.

Hi, Max. How are you?

Max Austin

Hi, it's good to meet you. How are you?

Rob Loveless 

Doing well, thank you. It's been a relaxing weekend. So always a good thing here.

Max Austin

Oh, fantastic. I'm so excited to be here and talking to you. And thank you for listening to me.

Rob Loveless

Of course. Well, I'm very excited to have you on here and have you share your story and everything about your book to the audience here.

But before we kick that off, can you tell everyone a little bit about yourself, how you identify, your career, all that fun stuff?

Max Austin

Of course, I can. My name is Max Austin. And I'm really excited to be here, as I've said. And thank you for listening to me. I identify as a gay man; my pronouns are he and him.

I'm a frontline nurse, dad, and adopter of two amazing children. And my husband, my long-suffering husband, of over 30 years is Wayne; bless him. And we live in the UK in Staffordshire.

And I found myself as a debut author of How Can We Be Wrong? and that came out with the wonderful Spectrum Books on the twenty-third of March. So, my story describes my experiences of coming out in the early 1990s while I was working as a nurse in the health service following the aftermath of the HIV and AIDS period.

Oh, Rob, it was dreadful. I was served an almost lethal prescription of bullying, bigotry, and hate from the very nursing community that I represent today. And it nearly killed me.

Rob Loveless 

Well, thank you for coming on today. There's obviously a lot to unpack in the book, How Can We Be Wrong? Which, congratulations on your debut. I'm really excited to share that information with everybody here.

But before we get too far into it, can you tell everyone today, are you a jaded or non-jaded gay and why?

Max Austin

I'm absolutely a non-jaded, gay. I'm so happy to be here and have these opportunities. My life is full, my life is full of my children, my work as a nurse, and now as an author. I love it.

Max’s Career (5:56)

Rob Loveless

That's awesome. We're always happy to have a non-jaded gay in the house.

Well, you kind of touched upon this in your intro about your career as a frontline nurse. So, can you tell us more about how you got into the health care profession?

Max Austin

Of course. You know, I fell into it. I started as a cleaner in the late 80s at a local hospital and I loved it. I loved the sense of belonging that this grand old Victorian lady or this building gave me.

She actually transfused me with kindness and protection for the first time in my life. And the hospital culture just ran through my veins.

So, I applied for a healthcare assistant job and then applied for my nurse training. And as they say, the rest is history. I'm here after 35 years later, and I'm still doing it.

Rob Loveless

So, with 30 years, I'm sure you've seen and experienced a lot. So, what have your experiences been as a gay man in the healthcare profession?

Max Austin

Oh, goodness, me. In some respect, life as a gay man was really tough when I was young, and it still can be today. We were living under the shadow of Section 28 and the HIV/AIDS hysteria of don't die of ignorance under Mrs. Thatcher in the UK. It was awful.

You know, I was served an almost lethal injection of bigotry, bullying, and hate from my very nursing family, as I said. And no one should feel so desperate that there's no way out. Even now. I can still taste that sea salt on my breath and see that cliff face where it put me.

Section 28 (7:33)

Rob Loveless

And I'm not familiar. Can you tell us what Section 28 is?

Max Austin

Of course. It was Margaret Thatcher's response to try to marginalize an even marginalized community of LBGT at a time when the LBGT community was rightly wanting rights and to be treated like everybody else.

Rob Loveless

So, what did it entail?

Max Austin

So, it entailed, really, laws that prohibited the words gay being talked about in schools. Okay. And that gay relationships weren't recognized. There was no legal status to them. And we were treated like a third-class citizen.

Rob Loveless

That's awful. And it sounds like some of the erasure going on there under Section 28 sounds somewhat similar to some of the Don't Say Gay bills we're seeing here in the United States today.

Max Austin

Absolutely. Yeah, absolutely. And it just breaks my heart. It really does. Because it's so important to me that everybody, in our community is equally welcome.

The HIV/AIDS Epidemic (8:44)

Rob Loveless

You said you've been in your career about 30 years. So that takes us back to around the early to mid-90s where still, I think, antiretroviral treatment wasn't readily available at the time or hadn't been, you know, introduced to the health care system. So, at the time, HIV and AIDS was still very much a death sentence.

Max Austin

Yes, it really was.

Rob Loveless

Through that 30-plus career, I'm hoping that maybe in more recent years, you've seen more tolerance, more acceptance, and more inclusive health care.

But going through your career, especially back in the early days when there was still very much a stigma around HIV and AIDS, what specific challenges or discrimination in the workplace as a gay healthcare professional did you experience, and how did you navigate those situations?

Max Austin

Oh, thank you. Let me explain. From my personal perspective of what happened.

My partner at the time, not my husband who I've been with for 30 years, but my partner at the time was training as the first male midwife in the area. It was really high profile actually. And everyone knew him, and they knew me.

And then, one night, he met me after a late shift and said only three things: I'm HIV positive, the hospital had found out, and we've got to go into hiding for our own protection.

I never got to hear the fourth thing that I really needed him to say: he never told me that he loved me. And I had no idea about any of it. So, it was a real shock.

Rob Loveless

I'm sure. And especially when healthcare should be helping to take care of people with, you know, viruses, illnesses, what have you. But instead of being able to feel like you can go to your employer or go to a health care professional to be treated for your diagnosis, you feel like you have to hide to go into protection.

Max Austin

Yes, we were, we were stigmatized. And good God, how I survived, I'll never know. It was just horrendous when we got back from hiding. And sadly, that same stigma followed me around for years. And it still does now in some circles.

I won't tell you the words that some of our staff used. You couldn't broadcast this otherwise, you really couldn't. And there were lots of examples of the pain that I suffered at the hands of the management and these so-called nurses.

I remembered that I wasn't allowed to use the toilets. And, all of a sudden, everyone had their cup, their own cup with a name on it. How I dealt with that is I accessed mental health support to deal with my trauma and rejection.

And from that, I'm like a phoenix. I'm now actually trained as a counselor myself through that lived experience.

But we know from the research that I'm sadly not the first, and I won't be the last person who identifies onto our LBGTQIA umbrella to suffer discrimination when accessing health care or to suffer from mental health problems. But the more we talk about it, the better it becomes.

Providing Inclusive Healthcare to LGBTQ+ Patients (11:49)

Rob Loveless

I think it's really powerful because I think for so long, people didn't have those conversations within the LGBTQ+ community. You know, HIV and AIDS was something that obviously there was a lot of stigma around.

So, people felt they had to hide who they were, you know, even if somebody was not HIV positive, they felt that they needed to hide that they were a gay person because people were going to assume that they were HIV positive just by being gay when clearly, that's not the case.

And then even further, you know, things like mental health and general health, people just didn't talk about. So, I think today having those conversations, and again, having the treatment in place where HIV does not need to be a terminal illness, but it's a chronic one. We're moving in the right direction of having these conversations of putting, you know, emphasis on our health and being aware of our health conditions.

So that being said, what kind of impact can a healthcare provider's sexual orientation have on the patient-provider relationship? And how do you, as a kind of a part two to that question too, how do you ensure a supportive and inclusive environment for your patients?

Max Austin

Well, can I answer that one from a personal perspective as a nurse, please Rob?

My experiences have told me over the last 30-odd years that healthcare professional professionals, I can't get me words out, I'm sorry, just need to be kind and celebrate difference.

Because I'm a living life, living, breathing example of what happens to people's physical and mental health in our community when inclusion just doesn't happen.

And let me tell you, as a senior nurse, none of that is happening on my watch. I'm on a mission to make sure that everybody's welcome.

Rob Loveless

My sister's actually a nurse, and she's younger than me. So, you know, very, even a different, not a literal different generation than me, but just the four-and-a-half-year difference between us is noticeable.

But she said, and I don't know if this was something she experienced in the classroom or if the professor shared a story about this. But basically, there was a story where, you know, they're talking about, you know, intro nursing and stuff.

And somebody, one of the students, said something like, what if I'm not comfortable treating a gay patient or treating? I don't know if it was a gay patient or if it was somebody who was, you know, a marginalized community.

What if I don't feel comfortable treating this person? And the professor straight up said, well, then you need to choose a different profession to go into.

Which, it's great to hear that. Unfortunately, and I can't speak for everywhere, but there's parts of the United States where I think, you know, people might feel that they can be selective of who they treat, which should not be the case.

You know, at the end of the day, it's a living, breathing human that deserves kindness and respect and, you know, to be treated just like anybody else.

Max Austin

I couldn't agree with you more. And my personal experiences have shaped my belief.

You know, I was given an almost lethal injection of hate from them. From the nursing community that was supposed to look after people.

So that is why I wrote my book. What goes on behind the smiles?

Rob Loveless

Absolutely. So then, are there specific healthcare needs or concerns that are more prevalent among the LGBTQ+ community, and how can healthcare professionals address those effectively?

Max Austin

Well, you only have to look at some of the shocking results that have come out with the work from organizations such as Stonewall.

From my own experiences, which are explored in the book, I can really, really relate to this because we know that half of our community has said that they have suffered from depression. So have I. Suicide is a tragically common theme. I tried it. And people use substances to deal with our own situations as well. 

Many people have experienced unequal treatment from healthcare staff and have been subjected to awful comments from them, too. And it's just a shame. And it breaks my heart. But it's not just me saying it. It's the research there as plain as day for us all to see.

So, this is why I wrote my book, How Can We Be Wrong?

Rob Loveless

Have you witnessed instances of discrimination against LGBTQ+ patients within the healthcare system?

Max Austin

Oh, I think you know from my experience. I have, and it's just like, how?

But now we've got inclusion policies like Be Positive, Speak Up channels, and inclusion groups, training, and awareness sessions for healthcare staff too. And most of that is mandatory as well in the UK.

But my story just takes these policies off the page and into reality because there's nothing more powerful to make people think and stand up to the power of lived experience. And not only to survive but to flourish.

And I want to give you that message of hope by reading my very personal story.

Rob Loveless

And I'm excited to get into that shortly. Because again, great book, there's a lot, you know, there's a lot of information in it. But it's not, you know, like a history book coming at you.

It's your, your life. It's a memoir, so it's really infusing the personal element in with, you know, a timely social phenomenon that was going on.

Before we get into the book, just kind of one last question about general health care, especially in regard to LGBTQ+ people. Obviously, someone's sexual orientation or gender identity does play a significant impact in their health and some unique health challenges that may present themselves. And it's important to find a health care provider who is inclusive and, you know, open to having those conversations and views a person as a person.

So, how can healthcare professionals approach these discussions about sexual orientation and gender identity so that their patients can feel more comfortable and understood?

Max Austin

Well, I think we had a conversation earlier that healthcare staff just need to be kind and compassionate and celebrate people's uniqueness and beautiful differences. Otherwise, they shouldn't be in the job to start with.

Healthcare professionals need training and support and education to do that, though. And a lot of it is now a mandatory compliance. But let's not forget the importance of positive role modeling, too. 

Champion roles, I am an LBGT champion, and visibility. Because I want to bang the drum of inclusion together. Because to me, kind inclusive leadership in healthcare is just fundamental. You just can't do one without the other. It's like breathing.

How Can We Be Wrong? (18:26)

Rob Loveless

Well, that being said, let's get right into it. And I think you already talked through some of the background behind the book. But what inspired you to write How Can We Be Wrong?

Max Austin

Well, if you just start with one person from thinking there is no way out by reading my story, then the whole thing has been worth it. Because there is, there's hope.

I was inspired to write it because I want all of our community to see that we can make a difference and be the best that we can be.

And through my own lived experiences, I really wanted people to see that it's not only okay to be different, as I say to my children, but it's actually wonderful to be different. I want people to sit up and take stock of the impact of the behaviors, both the good, the bad, and the ugly.

So that's why I did it. It's been bubbling away in me for 30 years.

Rob Loveless

And can you walk us through the process of putting the book together when you first sat down to start getting your story out there and the journey through writing it all to finding a home for it to be published?

Max Austin

Oh, it's just, yeah, I'm a debut author. I've never written anything before. And I was learning the industry while writing. Okay, but if you've got a message of hope, if you've got something that's so passionate too, you'll find a home for it.

You know, I'm a big believer in fate and support, and it happened. And it was just really great that after a while of different edits that Spectrum Books, it was wonderful, absolutely wonderful, thought that my story was so powerful. They wanted to publish it.

And I'm just honored and grateful to anybody and everybody who have just got behind me on my journey as an author because it's personal. It's really personal, my bio fictional account.

Rob Loveless

Do you have any future projects planned? Any follow-up books to this?

Max Austin

Well, I'm still writing. I'm still writing. And just think that I want to learn and grow as an author. Because people have been so kind and grateful.

And all at Spectrum Books have been wonderful. And I'm humbled that people have got behind the newbie, like me, just, it's just brilliant.

Advice for Aspiring LGBTQ+ Healthcare Professionals (20:39)

Rob Loveless

And as both an author and as a healthcare professional, what advice do you have for aspiring healthcare professionals who identify as LGBTQ+ and may be concerned about discrimination in the workplace?

Max Austin

Just find your tribe. And don't forget why you want to do the job in the first place. It's all about putting the client or the patient at the center of what we do.

Get some access to staff networks and get some support. So, just go for it. Just go for it. Follow your heart, follow your passion, and get the support you need.

Episode Closing (21:19)

Rob Loveless

And connecting it back to the tarot King of Cups in reverse. Again, we're working through some emotions that might be in our subconscious and are now coming to the surface. And it can be an uncomfortable thing to do.

But we really need to allow ourselves to feel those emotions and work through them, and be mindful of those that are around us. Again, we don't want to cut people off and we don't want to isolate ourselves and repress our emotions. But since we might be prone to being upset emotionally while we're going through this, it's really important to establish our boundaries.

We want to keep those people in our lives, but we want to keep the right kind of people around. Those who support us and welcome us and celebrate us and are there to help us when we're going through a tough time.

So, it's really important to identify what you need and identify those boundaries to set so that we're letting those supportive people be around us as we're working through whatever emotions we may be going through.

Again, with the King, it's the final card in the Suit of Cups. So, it's indicating that we're at the end of a cycle. And that can mean maybe we're at the end of a situation we've been going through. Or maybe, that means that we're at the end of a relationship with someone.

So, with that being said, with something coming to an end, as scary and as sad as that can be, it's opening the door for something new. But again, we need to have those boundaries in place so whatever we need to leave behind stays behind.

So that way, we have a clean slate for a new, happier, and healthier situation ahead of us.

Connect with Max (22:34)

Rob Loveless

And Max, where can listeners learn more about you and connect with you?

Max Austin

Well, you can find all about me on my website. It's www.maxaustinauthor.com and also at the Spectrum Books website.

The book's available to order at Amazon, both Kindle and paperback. And I regularly post on all the socials, and I'd be really honored if you'd follow me. And there are links on my website and at Spectrum for that.

And if you could possibly leave me a review on Amazon and Goodreads because every one means so much to me. It really does. Thank you.

An Excerpt from How Can We Be Wrong? (23:10)

Rob Loveless

And to close out the episode, can you read us an excerpt from your book?

Max Austin

Sure, but bear with me because, if we haven't covered it by now, I might get a little bit tongue-tied.

Okay, I'm gonna read the opening, the opening chapter. Okay:

“The clatter of the automatic doors closed tightly behind me as I left with my head full to the brim and already late home. My navy-blue tunic had irritated fresh sunburn all day long.

The first days back after a summer break are always a baptism of fire. At the best of times, with or without 10 hours of friction burns.

Walking up to the staff car park after work was much harder than on the way down to the hospital. I brushed past fresh lavender and my chest wheezed in disgust.

COVID may have had its way in my lungs, but at least I was still here to tell the tale. Things could have been much worse. And indeed, it had been for many NHS and social care staff up and down the country.

I took a second to catch my thoughts, switched on the radio, and turned over the engine. Thank goodness for air conditioning. I could finally breathe.”

Rob Loveless

Again, that was an excerpt from How Can We Be Wrong? by Max Austin.

Max, thank you so much for joining today. I will include in the episode description all the links to your website, the book. Everybody listening, go get it. It's a great read, really insightful.

And again, thank you for being here today, Max.

Max Austin

I've enjoyed every second of it. And thank you so much for having me. It's lovely to connect to people all over the world.

Connect with A Jaded Gay (24:44)

Rob Loveless

Definitely. And I'd love to hear your thoughts. If you have any feedback about the episode or questions for Max, you can reach out to me rob@ajadedgay.com.

Please remember to rate, review, and subscribe. Greatly appreciate that. You can follow the podcast on Instagram, TikTok, SoundCloud, and YouTube @ajadedgaypod. You can follow me personally, Rob Loveless, on Instagram @rob_loveless.

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And remember, every day is all we have, so you got to make your own happiness.

Mmm-bye.