127. Gay Icons: The Queen of Pop (with Stefan Mreczko)

Snarky Opener (0:00)

Stefan Mreczko 

I'm not saying that, like, size is everything, but like, 1.6 million people showed up to see Madonna 40 years into her career. Like, that's a pretty big deal.

Episode Introduction (0:29)

Rob Loveless 

Hello, my LGBTQuties, and welcome back to another episode of A Jaded Gay. I'm Rob Loveless and, today, I am a jaded gay because it's election day, and I am I'm hanging in there.

*I'm fine. I'm fine, I'm fine. I'm fine!*

In all seriousness, though, obviously there's a lot of anxiety around this. Just a reminder, get out and vote today.

Madonna (0:57)

Rob Loveless 

I don't want this to be a political episode. I think it is important that we find some lighter things to talk about in the current state of things.

So that's why I thought it would be fun to do a gay icons episode because it's been a little while since we did one.

So just a reminder, get out to vote, and then as soon as you're done with that, you can disassociate from the election stress for the rest of the day by escaping into the music as we talk about none other than the Queen of Pop herself.

And I am super excited to have a very special guest joining us today to talk all about Madonna. But before we get into it, let's pull the tarot card.

Tarot (1:34)

Rob Loveless 

Ooh. So today we drew a Major Arcana card, and that is The Emperor in reverse. Just a reminder that Major Arcana cards signify something big, like a significant milestone.

So, The Emperor is the fourth card in the Major Arcana and in numerology, four is tied to structure and stability. The Emperor embodies the divine masculine energy, so it's very action-oriented.

In traditional depictions of this card, there are a lot of reds and oranges from his robe to the colors in the background, and these colors are symbolic of his power, authority, and assertiveness.

But when we draw this card in reverse, it can signify a few things, such as an abuse of power, the presence of toxic masculine energy, or an unequal partnership.

Overall, though, when we draw The Emperor in reverse, it's a sign that we need to make sure we're connecting our personal power to our ability to take action.

This card radiates masculine energy, so we need to let that energy flow so that we can stand up for ourselves and take bold action to move forward.

And remember, The Emperor is viewed as a leader, so we should feel empowered to break free of typical confines and structure, to take action that feels in alignment with our goals.

Guest Introduction (2:46)

Rob Loveless 

And with that in mind, let's get into the episode. I am very excited to introduce today's guest. He is a photographer and host of the MLVC Podcast, the Madonna podcast.

Get ready to get into the groove. Please welcome Stefan Mreczko. Hi, Stefan. How are you today?

Stefan Mreczko 

I'm fantastic. How are you?

Rob Loveless 

Doing well. Thank you for joining us. I'm very excited to have another gay icon series here. I did a few last year, but this is the first main one that we're doing for 2024 right towards the end of the year.

I think it's very fitting to bring you on as a special guest because we have a lot to cover with the Queen of Pop herself, Madonna.

Stefan Mreczko 

 Madonna.

Rob Loveless 

Yes, the prototype for many of our modern-day pop stars here.

Stefan Mreczko 

For sure, for sure.

Rob Loveless 

So, I'm so excited for you to bring all your expertise and Madonna standom to us. But before we get too into it, can you introduce yourself?

Tell the listeners a little bit about you, who you are, what you do, your pronouns, all that fun stuff?

Stefan Mreczko 

Sure. Stefan, he/him. I am a newly re-joined resident of Philadelphia. I had spent a couple decades in New York City, and it just got too damn expensive. So, I'm now back in Philadelphia, which is hometown, and yeah.

I, you know, work a full-time job in marketing and communications and PR and as a side hustle, I do photography as well as host a Madonna podcast. So that's, that's me in a nutshell.

Rob Loveless 

And today, are you a jaded or non-jaded gay and why?

Stefan Mreczko 

Oh, I'm totally jaded. Yeah, totally jaded only because I think, I don't know how your experience is in Philadelphia, but it's just very difficult to meet single, available gay men of my age, and most of them are married and or in their early 20s, and I am.

That's sort of not the demographic I'm looking for. But yeah, I know I would. I'm trying not to be so jaded, but I think I've just been, yeah, I'm super jaded.

Rob Loveless 

I get it. And I'm not sure how many listeners are Philly-based here, but I'll include your Instagram and the information in the show notes afterwards, so maybe there will be some out there that can slide into your DMs after the show.

Stefan Mreczko 

Yeah.

Rob Loveless 

You heard it here first. Hit Stefan up.

Stefan Mreczko 

We can have a soft pretzel and a cheesesteak and walk South Street. Yeah, it'll be fun.

Who is Madonna? (5:10)

Rob Loveless 

Well, hopefully, we can ease some of the jadedness today by talking about one of the, I shouldn't say one of the, I'll say the Queen of Pop, Madonna.

So, I'm gonna just start off with a really loaded question here. Who is Madonna?

Stefan Mreczko 

So, I mean that my answer would be the Queen of Pop, but we've already sort of established that.

And I think a lot of people would argue that she's not the Queen of Pop, and those people are incorrect because they're they've not done their homework. I look, I get it.

People who don't view her as the Queen of Pop are people who didn't grow up with her. You know, if you're looking at her now, you know, she's 65 she's, you know, she's old compared, you know, for people in their teens and early 20s.

And I think as generations go on, it changes, you know, like, who you love and who you look up to. And you know, people in their teens and early 20s, they're looking at people like, you know, Chappell Roan and or Charlie XCX, you know, like there's a new crop that come up every generation and but, I mean, they wouldn't be here if it wasn't for Madonna and the path that she she blazed.

So, yeah, I mean, that's who she is, in short. I mean, obviously, she's a musician, you know, a singer, performer, actor, you know, she's done everything in the entertainment industry.

She's a blueprint for what it means to be a pop star. You know the I mean, that's, that's in short. I mean, she's everywhere if you don't know. I always think it's weird when people don't know who she is, because I'm like, how, like, she's one of those last remaining icons from the 80s.

And it's just, I mean, I get it, the 80s were 40 years ago. So, it's it, you know, for me, it's like, oh, yeah, that was just a couple days, you know, but that wasn't too long ago.

But, yeah, it's, it's a long time ago, so, but it's weird that people, you know, I mean, because people know who Michael Jackson is, you know, like they know him off the top of their head, or Whitney Houston or and I guess maybe it's like they're more well-known now because they're gone, and people look back and remember them with fondness, whereas Madonna is still going.

And I think people, you know, because she's still going, they don't sort of appreciate her as much. And she's said that as well, you know, she's like, they're gonna love me when I'm gone. And I'm like, agreed, you know, like, once she's and hopefully we have her for many a year still, but yeah, one inevitable day when she's no longer with us, they'll worship her.

Madonna Standom (7:42)

Rob Loveless 

I think you summed it up nicely there. Obviously, you have a full podcast series dedicated to everything Madonna because you can go on for years talking about everything she's done to contribute to pop culture.

But I think that's an awesome just summary of her. So, with that all in mind, what is your earliest memory of Madonna?

Stefan Mreczko 

So, I know, I mean, I know this is when I became a Madonna fan. It was the first time she came onto my radar.

There was an elementary school birthday party that, like, I think it was fifth grade, and the parents wanted to prevent us from doing a kissing party because that was like all the rage, you know, like, spin the bottle, or, like, seven minutes in heaven.

And like, we had started doing that at that age, and so, like, word got around to the parents of whatever the next party was, so they chaperoned the party and put as entertainment to prevent us from, like, going into the closet and making out with each other.

They put on the Betamax version of Madonna's Virgin tour. So, it had just come out on Betamax, and I think VHS and they had a Betamax player, which is like, so funny to think of, but yeah, that was our entertainment.

And the show starts, and Madonna comes down the stairs and starts singing, Dress You Up, and I was on board ever since.

I don't know what it was about that moment, but you know, like she was so dynamic and fascinating, I think, at that time, and as a closeted gay kid, even to myself at that time, I don't think I recognized what it was that was resonating to me, but I think she was so confident and just energized, and, I mean singing and dancing and having fun and beautiful, you know, like just this angelic face.

So yeah, that was, that's my earliest memory of Madonna.

Rob Loveless 

And would you say, was that what made you a fan right away, or did you take a little bit longer of her career for you to become a fan of hers?

Stefan Mreczko 

Nope right then and there. Yeah, right then and I think, I mean, lucky me, it was, it was, like a couple of years after she had already come out.

So, I was able to do that, it was it's the only time in my life I've ever able, been able to, like, binge Madonna music that was like, in the past. Otherwise, like, I think from 1987 on, I was, like, caught up to speed.

Like, you know, the you know, like, when you find a really great show on Netflix, and you're like, oh my god, there's three seasons, and then you get to binge all three seasons, and then you're like, oh no, now I have to wait until the fourth season comes out.

And you have to wait like everybody else. That was sort of like once Virgin Tour came out. I think it was around the same time that, like, the Papa Don't Preach, True Blue, Who's That Girl? era had sort of started.

And so, I was able to get all of her, like, first three albums and, like, listen to them back-to-back to back. But yeah, that was, that was that's when I became a fan, and I never looked back.

Madonna’s Career (10:48)

Rob Loveless 

So, with that in mind, can you give us an overview of her career?

Stefan Mreczko 

I mean, it started. She started as a singer, she started doing movies, she became a mother, and she's still doing and she still performing. This is a terrible review of her.

Yeah, I mean, she's, you know, like she's a singer, she's a dancer. She dabbled in movies, some were successful, and some were not. She's, you know, an amazing stage performer, and what else has she done?

I mean, she's written children's books, she's, she's done, she's been on Broadway, she's, I mean, every facet of I'm she, I think she's known as the most photographed woman in the world, you know.

I mean, like, her career is, it's astounding, you know, like it's, you can't sort of sum it up in one simple thing, like, to be like, oh, yeah, she's a pop star.

Because I think it's, I think it's more than that. I mean, she's an she's an activist, you know, she's been her philanthropy, her philanthropy is amazing.

You know, she's, yeah, it's, that's a terrible overview of her career. But, I mean, yeah, you'd think I'd have like, an elevator speech prepared. I don't. I don't.

Rob Loveless 

Well, to your point too, you know, you can't just kind of write her off as a pop star or an activist. She's all these things, like a total cultural icon.

Because if you watch any, I feel, any movie or TV show, whether it's the 80s, 90s, early 2000s, there's some Madonna song or some Madonna reference in there.

She's just kind of transcended time and been a staple within pop culture.

Stefan Mreczko 

There you go. Thank you. That's perfect.

Madonna’s Controversies (12:27)

Rob Loveless 

With that in mind, as we were talking about her being a cultural icon, there has also been a lot of controversy throughout her career.

So, can you tell us about some of her cultural provocations?

Stefan Mreczko 

Yeah, well, I think that's sort of what she became known for over time was becoming controversial in terms of doing things that didn't make people happy or it sort of rubbed up against what puritanical people, or sort of like prudes, were like, Oh no, no.

Why is she doing that? You know, I mean, I think the first controversy was when they had the very first MTV VMA awards, and she came out on, you know, a huge wedding cake in a bridal gown and started writhing around on the floor.

I mean, she was humping her her veil, and her dress was riding up, and you could see her underwear and like, it's so funny to think that in, you know, in the early 80s, when she did that, that that was so shocking, you know, that people were, like, up in arms about that, because, like, if you look at today's standards for what's acceptable on, I mean, the performances that we get today, it's, it's like, wow, Madonna is nothing compared to that.

But obviously, as time goes on, you know, like, if you didn't have her rolling around on the stage in 1984 then you never would have gotten to, like, WAP, you know, in the music industry, you know, like, it's just, it's funny to think of where we've come but, you know, and then, I mean, there were scandals such as, Papa Don't Preach, you know, when she released that song and video, I mean, that was her saying, you know, it was about women's choice, and her saying that I'm, I'm keeping this baby that I'm pregnant with in the song.

And that was, you know, oh, my God. People were outraged, you know, she telling, you know, the youth of America it's okay to have premarital sex and and to get pregnant as a high school kid.

And I think, you know, Madonna's message is, wasn't one of, yeah, go have, you know, unprotected sex and get pregnant as a teenager. It was more of let's give women the option to, you know, have a choice to do what they want with their bodies.

I mean, obviously, things went off the rails once you got to her, Like a Prayer video, you know, she's, I mean, that video just blew up because, you know, Baptist Christians were upset because she's, you know, kissing a Black Jesus.

You know, people were incensed by the fact that she's dancing in front of lit crosses. You know, I mean, there were so many visuals that were pissing people off. But I remember, MTV had done a news segment about that, and they showed some woman from a church, and she, you know, she's like, you know, as Christians, there are so many other things going on in the world that we should be worried about.

And I was like, yeah, exactly. Like, look at it in terms of, like, and again, I was like, the fact that people were pissed that Madonna was kissing a Black man, like, really, in 1989 like, why? It's just, it's kind of bizarre.

And then I think it was her one-two punch of the Justify My Love video and then her whole Erotica album/Sex book era. I mean, those were she was pushing sex down the throats of Americans, and America is notoriously prudish compared to other countries, and I just don't think people were ready for that, but that I, you know, it's kind of ballsy for her to do that and showcase fantasies and other ways of life that aren't just men and women.

And, you know, I always loved that when she did, she did an interview with Nightline when the Justify My Love video came out, and Nightline aired it, and then they had this wonderful interview, which is online if you google it on YouTube, but she she's so smart and she's so eloquent about how she talks about it, and she references the fact that, you know, no man was making her do any of this. This was her choice.

She put herself in all of these situations. And, you know, like when she's talking about her Express Yourself, video, she's, she's like, I crawled under my own table. I put, I put that, you know, dog collar around my own neck, you know.

And she's like, no man was forcing me to do that. And I thought that was like, wow, how ballsy and strong of her. And if you look at the Sex book, you know, like no artist today, you would never see someone like Ariana Grande or Charlie XCX, or, I'm trying to think, as Chappell Roan, maybe, who knows, maybe.

But like, you'd never see them get fully naked and do a whole, like, pictorial book and publish it. And, you know, it's like, it's just, it's funny to think that she was as brazen as she was. I mean, I remember when it happened, I was like, what is she doing? Oh, my God, what is this?

Because it was the first time you'd ever seen anyone do something like that. And I think, you know, she was 1990 Madonna was like, peak Madonna, and then she does Justify My Love, and then Erotica. And it was like, you sort of were, like she's falling off the rails, like it's over, like her career is over.

And then she just kept going, and you realized, like, oh, it wasn't that big of a deal after all. But yeah, she's definitely been known to have her share of controversy, which is, it's been fun, and then not as well, because, you know, when you're a Madonna fan, people come to you when she does crazy things like that, and suddenly it's a reflection on you as a person. Oh, you mean, you support her doing this Sex book? You support her doing this Erotica video?

And you kind of have to suddenly defend people or defend her and defend yourself as to like why, why do you like her? Why do you like this? You know, how this isn't normal, it's that type of thing. So, I think you get used to as a Madonna fan from a very early age.

I got having used to, like, I didn't understand why people were so upset about things because, in my mind, Madonna was doing it, so it was cool, you know, like she's not hurting anybody you know, hey, if she wants to have, you know, a make-out session with a woman while her boyfriend watches in the Justify My Love video.

Sure. Go ahead, Madonna. You know, I don't care. But yeah.

Rob Loveless 

To your point too, I think one thing with Madonna, especially early on, well, backtrack a little bit.

I think in the music industry, there's a double standard where, you know, men can be these sexual beings and stuff, but it's always shameful if they're too open about their sexuality.

And Madonna was somebody who, like you said, with the Papa Don't Preach video and song, she really owned the autonomy of her body, but then she also really owned her own sexuality. You know, she wasn't repressing it. She wasn't afraid to hide her sexuality.

And so, the 80s was definitely a more conservative time. We had the Reagan administration and then going into the 90s, the Bush administration.

So, there was that era of conservative, conservatism, I don't know if I'm saying that right, um, conservativism.

And then on top of that, there's Madonna coming out, who, like, you know, there weren't a lot of women, maybe as sexually forward in the music industry.

While it was somewhat okay for men, it wasn't viewed that way for women. So, she really kind of took ownership of that.

I was curious too, because you did mention some of her controversies around religion and some of the iconography, how, I know there was a lot of controversy over her name, like her name itself, Madonna.

Because obviously, if you look into religion, you know, there's Madonna and Child the, you know, immaculate conception, all of that. So how did she come up with the name Madonna?

Stefan Mreczko 

Oh, that's her birth name. Her mom, her mom's name was Madonna by birth, and they, when Madonna was born, she that's what they named her.

So, she's sort of like Madonna Jr, but not but, yeah, that's her birth name. It's not like, she decided it's not like.

Her name's Julie and she decided as a stage name, I'm gonna call myself Madonna.

That's been, you know, and she said that in early interviews, you know, she's like, what else was I gonna do for a living with a name like this, you know?

Like, she's not gonna be a supermarket checker, you know.

Rob Loveless 

Interesting. Okay, I always thought Madonna may have just been a stage name. Truthfully, I didn't really know too much about her biography beyond her career. So that's really interesting.

Stefan Mreczko 

Yeah, Madonna Louise Veronica Ciccone, that's her full name.

Madonna’s Eras (21:04)

Rob Loveless 

Okay, nice, nice. Well, going off of that, she's also, as you touched upon, she's been in the public for decades now, and she's continuously reinvented herself.

So how have these transformations played a part in her career?

Stefan Mreczko 

So, I think that was one of those things. I mean, again, growing up with her as an artist, whenever she would shift and change her look, it just became a thing that she did, you know, like you just sort of expected it after a while, you know, like, up here's a new Madonna album.

What's the look gonna be or and it wasn't necessarily just the look, her hair, her makeup, her her outfits. It was also like the sound of her albums, you know, they would shift drastically over time to sound different from one thing to the next.

And I think that, you know, people called her chameleon, or she knew the queen of reinvention. And I think it was mostly she just was, she didn't want to be the same thing over and over and over again.

She was exploring different facets of herself, you know, like not following trends, but like, you know, she's friends with artists and friends with fashion designers, and so when they would be creating new lines, she would be getting inspiration from them, or she'd be like, in the clubs, or, you know, friends with artists who were exposing her to different things, and so she'd be presenting that in her work.

And so, I think the reinvention just, it wasn't a calculated thing. It was just something that, oh, I I'm interested in wearing this kind of thing now, or I'm interested in having blonde hair now, as opposed to or red hair or short hair, long, you know, like it was just, she's just playing.

She's using her body as a canvas for her art, if you will. And I think it sort of trickled down. It wasn't just what she wore, but it's like how the music sounded. What was she? Who was she working with?

You know, who were the people that she was collaborating with? Where they, you know, it, it sort of just was all-encompassing.

Rob Loveless 

And it's funny too, because as you're talking about some of her different looks there, I can already kind of relate to the iconography of that, because I, you know, you're saying red hair, and I'm thinking Confessions on a Dance Floor, that purple leotard she's wearing and dancing, and heels in front of the mirror and all that.

And the black hair I'm thinking of the Frozen music video, yeah. So, it's, you know, it's as simple as a hair color, like you said, but it really ties to an era and a look.

And I think it's interesting with Madonna, I like to look at pop stars' different eras.

And I think there's some artists out there, like Rihanna, back in the day, when she still released music, it's been almost 10 years without an album now.

Stefan Mreczko 

Yeah, it's crazy.

Rob Loveless 

But if you look at her early career, it was like, every year there was a new album.

Like, it wasn't like the whole two to three-year era was like, here's an album, here's an album, but those eras still felt so distinct. You can see the looks with them. And it's the same with Madonna.

She released a lot of music pretty quickly back-to-back throughout the 80s and 90s, and even into the 2000s and each of those has such a distinct look and sound that even though it was rapid succession, they really are their own eras.

Stefan Mreczko 

Well, and I mean, just the whole idea of eras, I mean, she sort of started that, you know, whether it be intentional or not.

I mean, the reason why we look at something like an era in terms of pop music and like the album roll out and the look and how the videos are and the sound and whatnot that's from her.

You know, like she started doing that after, like, after, Like a Virgin the album, you know, when she came out for Live to Tell off of the True Blue album. I mean, she had blonde, long, flowing hair, and people were like, what? You know, she's dressed up.

You know, it was, like it was a very demure dress, and then she chopped off all her hair, and it was this short blonde and, you know, obviously we've gotten that iconic album cover to the True Blue album, beautifully photographed by Herb Ritts.

And it's a whole different look. And, you know, and then you get to, Like a Prayer and she's got dark hair and it's long, and then Express Yourself, it's short and a bob and like, it's just constantly changing, changing, changing. But before then, before she started doing that type of stuff, pop stars wanted to sort of cement who they were with one specific look, one specific sound because they wanted people to know, oh, this is what I like.

I like this look. I like the sound because they were afraid if they changed, people wouldn't know who they were, and they'd lose fans or and I thought, how smart of Madonna to sort of like just be, expect us to be smart enough to know.

Yep, it's this is her. And stay along for the ride. You know.

Rob Loveless 

Definitely, and when you're talking through that, I can definitely see what you're saying, how there were a lot of artists who had a similar sound, and that's why you see them kind of fade away a little bit. Like Donna Summer had a really big sound in the late 70s.

It transcended a little bit into the 80s, but with disco dying, she kind of faded a little bit too. I think one of the other big pop stars who did do that a bit, and this might be controversial because I believe that there's a feud between the two of them, but I think Cher was somebody else too around that time, who also reinvented herself, going from kind of some folky to rock to in the 90s pop and all that.

But I believe, isn't there a little bit of, um?

Stefan Mreczko 

I don't know if, I mean, they've, they were together for that women's march a couple years back. I often wonder if it's just media invented, you know.

Like, I think they, they tend to be snarky about each other from time to time, but I think maybe it's just for, like, media mentions, you know?

Like, they might be in on the joke, you know, like, Madonna, I'm just gonna, I'm gonna slag you off in the press. And Madonna is like, Sure, go ahead.

I don't care, you know, like, I don't think that matters to them, because it gets mentioned and keeps their name in the press and it's funny.

Rob Loveless 

Yeah, definitely. It's like the Britney/Christina, like, who knows how much of an actual feud was there, but yeah, the media definitely like to pick up on it.

But I was just curious because I know Cher's somebody who's also credited with a lot of reinventions too. But I wasn't sure if that was, like blasphemy, bringing it up here.

Stefan Mreczko 

No, no, but I do. I think you're right with you know, I think that's been one of Madonna's great successes, is adapting with time.

Had she stayed the same sound from the 80s, she wouldn't be as big or as relevant today as you know it was, I think it was the fact that she shifted her sound and the fact that she shifted her look, it was, it created a whole new engagement for old, you know, current fans, and then brought on new fans, because she was, Oh, I like this new sound.

And then they could, you know, like, if they hadn't heard Madonna before, and suddenly, now it's like, Oh, what's this new song?

You know, like people always say, like, Ray of Light was, like, you know, a reinvention for her, and then Confessions on a Dance Floor was another reinvention for her, you know, like, sometimes it was really successful, like those albums.

And then, you know, after Confessions on a Dance Floor, you had her Hard Candy album, where she sort of, like, really leaned heavy into R&B. It just didn't work as well.

You know, like, people were like, no, this is Nelly Furtado from three years ago, you know. Like, it doesn't sound fresh and new. And so sometimes it's successful, and sometimes it's not, you know.

Rob Loveless 

And it's interesting too, because talking through discography like that, if you look at her number ones and her biggest hits, like they all sound so different from each other, like, even looking chronologically, obviously Vogue was number one.

That's such an iconic sound. But then you jump to Frozen, which is also number one. It's not dancey at all. It's very almost spiritually in a way. It's darker sounding, very moody.

So, there are these commercially successful songs, but each one sounds so different from each other. Like you said, I think that's how she keeps her success going.

Stefan Mreczko 

Totally.

Madonna’s Discography and Records Set (28:38)

Rob Loveless 

So, with that in mind, you know, we've talked about some of her songs, but can you tell us a little bit more about her discography and some of the records she set as an artist?

Stefan Mreczko 

I mean, so, like I had mentioned, you know, she's been around for 40+ years. You know, she started producing, putting music out. Her very first single was Everybody in 1982 and, I mean, she's been putting music out. What is it?

Progressively since, since then. I mean, we're now in the longest drought from a Madonna album. We haven't gotten a new Madonna album since 2019 so this is the longest time frame since her in her entire career that we have gone without. It's never been this long of a time.

So, we're hoping that she eventually comes out with a new album sooner or later. But I did look up some some stats. I try not to look at stats as like a measure of how successful they are. I mean, yes, Madonna has had commercial success, but for me as a fan, it's mostly been like, how does she make me feel?

How does, like, what, what? What does her art do for me? And I mean, there are songs that I listen to over and over and over again. I mean, I'm always listening to Madonna's music.

Always it's mood-dependent. But, um, I think that to me is like, how she's been successful for me is that I will still listen to her music, even after I've been listening to songs since the 80s.

You know, like, it's crazy to think that some of the songs have been with me for that long and that I still find them interesting to listen to. But she does hold the title of best-selling female recording artist of all time.

I believe she still holds that record. I don't think Taylor Swift has gotten her yet.

*Get a good lawyer.*

Only because music has changed, you know, like in terms of, you know, people used to have to buy physical albums, and now it's such a streaming industry, you know, where people don't buy physical music anymore.

I mean, vinyl obviously had a resurgence in terms of popularity, but I think she's still the best-selling female recording artist of all time. I know that her True Blue album was the best-selling album of 1986 and she was the best-selling female artist of the 1980s.

Her Immaculate Collection album, which was her very first greatest hits collection in 1990 was the best-selling album by a woman in that year, and I think for 11 years from when she released it, Madonna held the record of having the highest-grossing documentary of all time with her Truth or Dare documentary.

And then, of course, as I'd mentioned, her Sex book was or is the the best-selling and fastest-selling coffee table book in publishing history. So...oh.

And then, of course, then this was her most recent stat. This past year, back in May, she had the largest standalone concert ever for a solo artist with her celebration tour in Rio. I think it was one thing was 1.6 million people. There have been so, just so people don't come for me, there have been larger crowds.

So, I think Rod Stewart had a concert on the beaches of Rio where Madonna had it, and he had like three point something million people. However, Rod Stewart's concert was for New Year's Eve, so it wasn't just a Rod Stewart concert, it was Rod Stewart and fireworks for New Year's Eve.

So, Madonna, people showed up, 1.6 million people showed up simply because she was there, not because they were also getting to celebrate New Year's.

Rob Loveless 

And it's wild to think, too that she had her greatest hits album come out in 1990 because, at that point, she had been eight years into her career around there. And to think of all the songs and all the hits that have come after.

Stefan Mreczko 

For sure.

Rob Loveless 

Like 1991 to 20, what are we in 2024. Like, it's, it's wild to think that was already her first greatest hits.

Stefan Mreczko 

Yeah, yeah. It's weird.

I mean, I think that was sort of what was so funny about it, that she was able to put out a greatest hits and, I mean, and she still left songs off, like, there were songs like, I think there were number ones that she did not include on that greatest hits, which is kind of crazy to think that, like she would do that, but yeah, and she added, and I always loved that it was technically called a greatest hits album, and then she put two new songs on it.

She put Justify My Love and Rescue Me, as if to say, like, Yeah, I'm not done, you know, like, yeah, it's a, it's a greatest hits, but here's some new stuff too.

Rob Loveless 

And you bring up a good point too with talking about streaming because I have had this conversation with a few of my friends that it's really weird how people chart these days because you can have, you know, somebody comes out with a song or an album, it goes number one the week it comes out, and then it's off the top 10 the week after.

So, yeah, you chart at number one. But would you really consider that a commercial success or a hit this year?

I think we're really seeing that with Sabrina Carpenter, she, you know, her album was number one for a few weeks in a row. I'm not sure if it still is or isn't, but Espresso has been in, like, the top 10, like pretty much every week since April.

She now has two more songs in the top 10. I'm really seeing that more as, like an era and a hit, compared to some of these other artists whose album comes out, it goes number one next week. It's off the charts.

Stefan Mreczko 

Yeah.

Rob Loveless 

And to your point too, with trying not to focus on that with Madonna, I think Britney Spears is an example, too, that if you look at how her singles performed on the charts, she really never was, like a chart girly.

Like, she's had a few number ones along the way, but like, Slave 4 U, which might be one of her most, like, iconic, you know, dances, outfits, the VMA performance, people know that it only charted.

I don't even know. It didn't make it to the top 10. It didn't do that well in the charts, but she's still so iconic and known for that. And I think that's a good point with Madonna.

Now, I think Madonna has had a lot more number ones and a lot of hits, but kind of separating the art from the commercial success sometimes too.

Stefan Mreczko 

Yeah well, and also, and we talk about this on my show all the time, media consumption's changed. You know how people used to consume music. I mean, in the 80s and 90s, we had to listen to the radio or watch MTV. That was it.

That's how you consumed music. And it wasn't until, you know, the internet sort of took off, and then you could sort of start to hear music online a little bit, you know, with like Napster to like illegally download mp3s.

But then once streaming started, I mean, that sort of usurped how people consumed music.

And to me, it's always been, the sense of community has sort of been erased, which I think sort of what hurts musicians' or performers' music a little bit, you know, like, when Vogue came out, we heard that for months, you know, like you that song would be on the radio and on MTV every hour, on the hour for months.

Now, you know, you don't, no one listens to the radio. I mean, I'm sure people do. But like, there, it's not one designated source where people are getting their music from.

So, you don't maybe your music that you're consuming is completely different from mine, which is completely different from another friend, from another friend, from another friend, and ad nauseam, where you know, back back in the day, you know everyone knew every song that was out, and that was what you listened to for months.

And so, I mean, Janet Jackson, she had released Rhythm Nation and had a number-one song over the course of three years off of the same album. That would never happen today.

You, in fact, nowadays you get like, Charlie XCX releases Brat, and then a couple weeks later you get Brat Extended, and then a couple weeks later you get Brat Remix. And then, you know, it's they're constantly trying to give us new, new, new because people get bored, and then they move on.

You know, like we're so instantaneous gratification these days that an album comes out, and within a month, you've moved on to something else, you know, and it never used to be that way.

So, like, I think the the idea of fame and the level of fame has totally changed. I think people have to work really hard to make things super successful, and that you're just lucky if something goes viral, and I don't think you can play.

I mean, look at poor Katy Perry, like her album's tanking, you know, and it was supposed to be this big comeback and, and it's not. You know, like, and I don't know how you plan for success these days, but sorry, I've gone off the rails now, I don't know.

Madonna as a Performer (37:20)

Rob Loveless 

Now it's all, definitely. Well, shifting gears a little bit. We've covered a lot about Madonna, but can you tell us a little bit more about what she's like as a performer?

Stefan Mreczko 

Yeah, I mean, that's what I think I loved about other than the music. I mean, her performance, you know, when she was at her peak, she was unmatched. You know, her live shows are still to this day. I mean, I just the Celebration tour just wrapped up this past spring.

And you know, her shows are some of the most artful and thought-provoking, and innovative shows that exist in the pop landscape today. I mean, her, you know, she was singing, she was dancing. There were dancers. It was theatrical, you know, like her, the production of her on stage was amazing.

You know, it's, if you watch early Madonna, you know, she was looking there was shock value. There was, it was she did unexpected things. You know, she was doing, you know, movements that people weren't used to seeing on live television.

You know, she was pulling stuff from the clubs as inspiration and presenting them on stage. And, yeah, I mean, it's, I think that's been one of the the hardest things as a Madonna fan is. And, I mean, I think this is just life in general.

Obviously, as we get older, we don't move quite as quick and as fast as we used to and to, you know, see, her have to slow down, you know.

And I mean, anyone who's a dancer will tell you, you know, like the way you danced when you were 22 is not the way you're going to be dancing if you're lucky that you're dancing at all, is not how you're going to be dancing at 62.o the fact that Madonna is still even performing is a blessing.

But I mean, you know her Celebration tour, she was 64 when she was doing that tour, and she was moving around for two hours the entire time.

And I just remember that I saw it a handful of times, and I would just be standing like still and maybe dancing while I'm watching the show, and my body was shattered at the end of a two-hour show. And I would be like, how does she do this? Back-to-back, night after night?

Now, I get it. She probably has every, like, great therapy, you know, procedure available. I'm sure she's got, like, a deep tissue masseuse and cryotherapy, and, you know, creams and lotions and, you know, a plunge, an ice plunge.

And she's got everything, you know, because she's an athlete when she's on stage, but, yeah, it's the, you know, you try singing and dancing for two hours and see how you if you're ready to do that again the next night.

You know what? I mean, like, it's, it's mind-boggling to think that she was able to do that, or still wants to do that. You know, she doesn't have to. She's got more money than God. You know, she doesn't have to do anything, but she she does.

And I think that's what's sort of great about her as a performer, is that she still wants to do stuff for people. I mean, she's always said she's, she's a stage girl, you know, she loves being on stage because of the energy and the the environment.

But, yeah, I mean, I've always loved her as a performer. It's, it's, she's, you want to watch her, you know, like she's, she's great to watch. It's funny when I've seen other people on stage, and I'm like, they're really just not the same, you know.

Rob Loveless 

Well, and to your point, too, how, you know, obviously she's aging, and you're not going to dance the same.

I think it's interesting because I there was some documentary I watched in the pandemic, and apparently people were like, coming after Madonna in the Blonde Ambition tour, saying she was too old to be doing what she was doing, because she was like, 32 being, you know, sexual and stuff and dancing.

And to me, I again, I think it's a double standard between men and women, but to me, that's so surprising that in 1990 being 32 was considered being old for a woman, that you're aging out and you can't do what you're doing, and here she is, 30 plus years later, doing it just as good as she did then.

Stefan Mreczko 

Yeah, it's weird. I mean, that's the weird thing. I mean, I think I had, there was an Entertainment Weekly story when she did her Girly Show tour in 1993 and they called her grandma. Like, I was like, come on, like she's in her 30s, and they're saying she's too old put her out to pasture.

And I'm like, and I think part of that is what motivated her to keep going, you know, because people were like, telling her to stop, and she's like, no, no, I'm gonna keep going. And as we should, you know, that's as people in life. Just because we get older doesn't mean we should, you know, stop doing stuff.

You know, it's, I mean, it's I mean, it's like, the whole, and I'm not trying to get political, I don't want to go there, but it's like, within this current election cycle where people are like, Biden and Trump, they're too old, they're too old. And it's like, yeah, well, yeah, there they are.

But, you know, like, how old is too old? And I think that's sort of like, what Madonna keeps pushing against now is, she's, you know, she's always sort of tackled different obstacles in her career, you know, whether it be as a woman, as you know, like, as a woman with sexual desires, as you know, as a mother.

And now it's like, now she's like, and a woman in her mid-60s, you know, like, what does that mean?

Like, you don't have a blueprint for that, and I think she's just like, well, it can, you know, if you want to keep going and want to keep doing stuff she does, you know, like, there's no reason why she should stop if she's still got something to say.

The Queen of Pop (42:53)

Rob Loveless 

I mean, from everything we've talked about, obviously, I can see why she's an icon.

But for anybody out there who maybe doesn't agree, or, like you said, doesn't know who Madonna is, why, why do you think she's called the Queen of Pop?

Stefan Mreczko 

Well, so, like I said earlier, I think that a lot of people would argue, oh, she's not the Queen of Pop. You know, Taylor Swift is or, like, insert your favorite current pop star here, you know? Like, I think people throw that term around, like, queen, queen. No, she's the queen.

They people throw that term around way too much. Like, let's, let's be realistic here, you know, like, I'm sorry, you cannot be called a queen of pop if you've just come out, you know. Like, if you've only been on the scene for five years, no, no, you're maybe a princess in waiting, you know.

But like, let's, let's look at accomplishments. Let's look at like, how long have you been around? Like, have you done iconic things that have shifted the needle in either music or entertainment at large? You know, like, Madonna's been around for 40+ years in the music industry.

You know, like, I think before Taylor Swift, she was the biggest solely solo touring artist ever, you know, like she's an icon. She comes from the 80s, like I mentioned, where it's like a lot of her peers are no longer here.

You know, Michael Jackson, George Michael Whitney Houston, Prince, like they're all gone. That, you know, Madonna's still around. And even some of the 80s icons that are still around aren't quite as prolific or as grand as, I mean, look at someone like Paula Abdul.

Look at some someone like, oh, I just, I just lost my train of thought. Well, I mean, Janet Jackson, but like, there's certain people where it's like, you know, Paul Abdul, she's on tour with New Kids on the Block.

She only gets like, a half an hour to perform, whereas, like, and they're small venues, and, you know, like, I just, it's not, I'm not saying that, like, size is everything, but like, 1.6 million people showed up to see Madonna 40 years into her career.

Like, that's a pretty big deal, you know, she's got music that spans four decades.

It's, you know, it's, it's just weird to think that people don't give her the respect that I think she's entitled to, you know, and because she's just, she set so many standards and so many records, and, yeah, I mean, people are gonna say what they're gonna say, and everyone's gonna worship whoever they want to worship.

But, I mean, I think she still should be called the Queen of Pop, for sure.

Rob Loveless 

I agree. I mean, even if she's not somebody that you know, if she's not a singer that people stan or worship, they should definitely, at least recognize her contributions and give her props for that, because she's not, you know, she really did, you know, pave the way for a lot of the modern-day pop stars

Stefan Mreczko 

Well, and the reason people, I think again, if you're younger and you don't agree with that statement, I think it's because maybe you haven't done your research, and that's fine if you don't want to give somebody else accolades because you like somebody else right now, fine, but I think it's, you know, it's not an educated thing to say Madonna didn't do anything.

Oh, why would we call her the Queen of Pop? Because it's like, well, look at someone like Chappell Roan, Lady Gaga, you know, like all those people like they're what they're doing in their career.

Now, I'm not saying that the talent is the same, or that Madonna's talent is better. I'm just saying a lot of what they do in terms of, like, if you look at like Lady Gaga's career, the blueprint for how she followed certain albums or themes or what she went after is very similar to what Madonna did.

I'm not saying she's copying Madonna, per se, but like, hey, if it ain't broke, don't fix it, you know, like, if it worked for Madonna, why not?

Madonna as a Gay Icon (46:55)

Rob Loveless 

Exactly, exactly. And in addition to Madonna being called the Queen of Pop, she's also frequently referred to as a gay icon. So why does Madonna's music resonate so much with gay men?

Stefan Mreczko 

I, well, so I don't know if it's necessarily just the music. I think maybe the music was the avenue for which gay men sort of saw her. I mean, obviously, her music and her music videos were sort of what drew attention to her.

But she's strong, she's assertive, you know, she's very outspoken. She knows what she wants. You know she's she's not afraid to be sexual. I mean, she's always featured beautiful men in her videos and on stage.

You know, she's fashionable, I think all of those traits, sort of is what you know gay men, you know, it's what resonates with gay men. You know they you know, she's strong woman, she's beautiful.

You know, like, I mean, I remember as a high school kid, I I wanted to dress exactly like her male dancers in her Vogue video.

You know, I was like, I want, I want to wear that. Not, not, not just as Madonna, but as the male dancers like I wanted to look as sharp as they did in those suits.

Rob Loveless 

Hey, I mean, I'm not opposed to wearing a cone bra every now and then, so. Going off of that, though, a little bit years ago, I read this book called Straight Jacket by Matthew Todd, and I two years ago, when I started the podcast, I did an episode on pop queens and their emotional appeal to gay men.

And in that book, I cited that research for that. In the book Straight Jacket, Matthew Todd explains that pop queens typically appeal to gay men through one of four categories which she kind of identified, and these include an assertion of aggressive sexuality, escape through music, empowerment/I'm too good for you, and I'm not good enough for you/victim.

So how do you see Madonna's discography paralleling any of those themes?

Stefan Mreczko 

And thank you for providing those in advance. Because I was like, I had to give that a little bit of thought, because I was like, hmm. So, I'm and I do feel she has, she does sort of cover off a couple of those themes in some of her music.

So, an assertion of aggressive sexuality, that one's super easy. I mean, she's had music from the very beginning, like Physical Attraction, which is a killer early Madonna song. It's so good.

Obviously, Justify My Love, Erotica, I mean, on her Rebel Heart album, which came out nine years ago, there was, you know, a song called Sex. So, she's constantly, sort of like in that sexuality. It's in your face, it's it's there, it's kind of hot, you know, it's kind of sexy.

Sometimes it's not, sometimes it is. But yeah, so that she takes, she takes that right there. The second one escape through music. I mean, Madonna has hands in the air like carefree, anthemic dance music. You know, like her very first single, Everybody.

Then there's, of course, Holiday, Into the Groove. She had that song come out, I think it was 2009, called Celebration. So, there's always these, sort of, like, carefree, I mean, Confessions on a Dance Floor, she had Get Together.

You know, like, there's songs about just like being free because of music or because of dancing. The empowerment, I'm too good for you. I think one the first song that came to mind, I was like, She's Not Me, off of her Hard Candy album where she's basically saying, you know, like, well, you might have that girlfriend, but she's not me. I'm better than her.

And on her Rebel Heart album, she has Living for Love, which is all about like, you know what, I fell down, but I'm gonna pick myself back up. I'm gonna put my crown back on my head, and I'm gonna keep on going.

So, I think a lot of her songs sort of fit in that where it's, like, definitely empowerment, like, Express Yourself. You know, where she's talking about, you know, don't go for second best. You know, like, it's your respect yourself, basically. And the final one, you said, I'm not good enough for you/victim.

So, I don't think, I I could be wrong. I didn't like deep dive on, like every single song, but Madonna doesn't usually play victim in any of her music. I think the closest I could think of for that would be off of her Like a Prayer album, just a song called Oh Father.

And I think in, Oh, Father, I mean the video more so than the actual content of the lyrics, which is her portraying a person who was in a abusive relationship and trying to escape that.

So, I think, you know, or like in in her Erotica album, she has Bad Girl where she talks about here like I've smoked too many cigarettes today. I'm not happy when I act this way. I think that's sort of maybe like, the closest you can kind of get to that.

But for the most part, she never really, sort of tries to sing as if, like, I'm a victim. I mean, she has Rescue Me as a song, which I always thought was a strange song for her, lyrically and message-wise, because that's the only song where she's ever been like someone, please come rescue me, you know, like, help me.

Because I think Madonna has always been very proud of taking care of herself, you know. And I think that's sort of been her overall message, but, yeah.

Rob Loveless 

Definitely. I think actually, Matthew Todd, in his book, he uses Madonna as a prime example of the escape through music.

And he talks about, like, her song Vogue and everything in that too, like escape on the dance floor.

Stefan Mreczko 

Oh, sure.

Rob Loveless 

And to your point, too, about the I'm not good enough for you/victim. I agree. I mean, again, I've listened to all of Madonna's albums, but I haven't listened to the deep cuts enough to know, like all of those.

But I don't really think anything she ever falls into, like, the victimhood category, because even her song Take a Bow, even though it's a sadder song, I feel it's more so kind of empowerment, where she's, like, saying goodbye to this person, as opposed to like longing. Like she knows it's not right, so.

Stefan Mreczko 

Well, she's, she's the one closing the chapter, you know.

Rob Loveless 

Yeah.

Stefan Mreczko 

I'm like, even if it's not sort of outright sad, it's like the show is over, she's the one putting that relationship to bed.

Rob Loveless 

Yeah, definitely. So, she doesn't necessarily fall into that victimhood thing, but I definitely think the aggressive sexuality and escape probably are her, her top two.

Stefan Mreczko 

Yeah.

Rob Loveless 

And it's fun too, because even her songs that maybe surface level don't seem as sexual, there's a lot of like, sexual innuendos within there. Like, Into the Groove. Like, you know, I'm tired of dancing with myself. I want to dance with someone else.

What's it called? Open Your Heart, you know, the lock and the key all those things. Like, there's little tongue-in-cheek puns there that you could take at surface level for, like, oh, just a fun lyric, or take it to a deeper level of sexuality.

Stefan Mreczko 

Right. I mean, obviously, like, one of the album cuts off of Erotica, Where Life Begins. I mean, she's basically talking about getting eaten out, you know. I mean, like, that's total aggressive sexuality, you know.

Rob Loveless 

Which then paved the way for a Chappell Roan song Casual, where she talks about being eaten out in a car so.

Stefan Mreczko 

Or like, uh, Sabrina Carpenter's Bed Chem.

Rob Loveless 

Yeah.

Stefan Mreczko 

You know what I mean? Like, and I love that about Sabrina Carpenter, where she's, she sings very sweet, but she's like, oh, she's, she's, she's talking dirty.

Rob Loveless 

Yeah, and she's another one that has, like, the fun little, like, sexual innuendos there.

Stefan Mreczko 

Yeah, she says it with a little cheerleader smile. But we know.

Rob Loveless 

Exactly, exactly. I don't know if you've seen any of her live performances of Nonsense, but she always does some ad-libs on the way out that are usually, like, pretty dirty.

Stefan Mreczko 

Oh no, I'll have to check it out.

Rob Loveless 

It's funny, yeah. Well, that being said too, you mentioned that with Madonna, you know, obviously there's an attraction for gay men there because of her music, but you think it's more so because of some of the messaging, and also some of her being an advocate for the LGBTQ+ community.

Stefan Mreczko 

Yeah.

Rob Loveless 

So, can you tell us a little bit more about her advocacy work?

Stefan Mreczko 

I mean, she was, she jumped on board the, you know, a lot of her friends that she knew in the 80s started dying from HIV/AIDS, and she started to take that up as a cause. She did a lot of benefits, you know, like some of her, she would do, like fundraising benefits.

I think there's a dance-a-thon that she did in LA she, you know, like one of her concerts for Blonde Ambition, the entire proceeds went to benefit HIV/AIDS research.

In her Like a Prayer album, you know, she had used part of the liner notes to be an HIV/AIDS awareness insert, you know, talking about, you know, just, she just wanted to get the word out about it, because people weren't, you know, like people were labeling HIV/AIDS as a gay, quote unquote gay disease, and Madonna was making sure that people knew about it and knew about safe sex, and just trying to make sure that, you know, LGBTQ+ rights were, you know, being being talked about.

You know, like at a time when that was a career-ender if you brought it up. Madonna was very staunch, and making sure that she did talk about it.

And there's a lot of interviews from her, you know, like early 90s, especially when she started diving into more sexual territory, that people would ask her about it, and she would bring it up.

And, yeah, I mean, that's, she's been a champion of gay rights ever since. I mean, she's, you know, she worked with, you know, people on her shows that were LGBTQ+ and she still does.

And I thought it was interesting. There's recently been going around. There's that story about Lady Gaga not talking like not correcting people when they said she could possibly be trans, and Lady Gaga says, well, I didn't want to correct people because I didn't want trans people to think I was ashamed by that.

And I remember back when Madonna's, you know, Justify My Love video came out, or when she was like, cavorting around with Sandra Bernhard, and there was rumors that she was a lesbian, and Madonna never came forward and said, I'm not a lesbian, or I am a lesbian.

And she's gone on record as saying she's like because I don't think it's not a big deal, you know, she's like, being a lesbian is fine if you want to be, be whoever you want to be.

And she didn't correct people at the you know, like 1991 she wasn't really like, no, because, again, same thing.

She didn't want people to think that she thought it was a bad thing if that's what people were thinking she was. So, you know, kudos to her.

Rob Loveless 

And wasn't there a performance in, I think, the late 2000s or early 2010s I think it was before Obergefell v Hodges, but there was same-sex marriage was legal in some states?

And I thought she had performed, and they were like, during the performance, like, same-sex couples were being married during the performance.

Stefan Mreczko 

Oh, yeah, at the Grammys, yeah. No, I think it was the same year that they I think, like, I think they had just given like, I think gay marriage had just become legal.

And I think it was that within that same month, that's when the Grammys happened.

And so yes, she performed at that ceremony where, like, all these gay people were in the aisle, all gay couples were getting married.

Rob Loveless 

Yeah. And I mean, going to, like some of the documentaries, like she showcases, like her dancers, who were all pretty much openly gay men.

Stefan Mreczko 

Oh, sure. Truth or Dare.

Rob Loveless 

She's always been, yeah.

Stefan Mreczko 

I mean Truth or Dare. I mean, when I saw that in the theater in 1991 that was the first time I'd ever seen two men make out before. You know, like they weren't showcasing, we didn't have stuff like that on television in 1991.

I mean, I think the real world had come out in 1990 and that was the very first time they ever had like a gay man, I think, you know, Pedro was the very first gay character, or, like, real, sorry, real, real gay person being reflected on TV.

But even that was very like, he had a boyfriend, and they rarely showed them together. You didn't see any intimacy with them.

So, yeah, when, when the Truth or Dare documentary came out in 1991, I mean, they showed them her dancers at the Pride Parade.

You showed two dancers making out, you know, like there was a, one of her dancers didn't like that they were flaunting their gayness and but, like, it was, yeah, it was, it was groundbreaking, because they she, no one was doing that then.

And the fact that she decided to do that and to showcase that she didn't have to and she did, which is kind of ballsy, you know, it's kind of amazing.

Rob Loveless 

Definitely. And it always felt very authentic too.

Like it feels like from the get-go, she had just been embedded within the gay community, whether it's having gay dancers or her advocacy work, and none of it seemed like performative or like later in life, like she kind of kept quiet and then came up about it.

Like, yeah, it was always front and center with her.

Stefan Mreczko 

For sure.

Stefan’s Favorite Madonna Era (1:00:01)

Rob Loveless 

Well, shifting gears a little bit, what is your favorite Madonna era and why?

Stefan Mreczko 

So, I will say, I think when, whenever anybody asks me that, I'll say either Erotica or Bedtime Stories. I, Erotica was just so different because that was like the album sounded like a club album. Like pop music sounded dancey before, but that album sounded like you had lifted it right from the clubs.

It was just so different and gritty and and dancey and fun and then not but also just like that was when Madonna shifted in terms of, like, not everyone loved her all of a sudden. It was very, very different, a different look, you know, like people just stopped.

They stopped playing her on the radio as much. It was a very different time, where it's like, suddenly she was this beloved artist, and then a year later, like, Erotica came out, and you're like, why aren't they playing her on the radio now?

Or, you know, like, so I Yeah. I mean, whenever anyone asks, like, era-wise, I'll say Erotica. However, Bedtime Stories, which came out in 94 would be a very close follow-up, just because she was doing like pop R&B, and it was just beautiful and understated and simple, but not and the looks that she gave us, it was kind of like trashy glam, with like a heavy smokey eye and a nose ring and beautiful blonde hair.

And, I mean, all the videos from her Bedtime Stories album are just iconic, like, they're amazing. So, yeah, I usually am torn between those two. I mean, look, don't get me wrong.

I love, like, Ray of Light, Confessions, you know, like, I mean, there's so many, but it's like, if I cherry-picked, if people were like, you have to take one of this album on a desert island with you for the rest of your life.

I, I mean, and I'm cheating, like, I would obviously, like, I could say Immaculate Collection, but that's the greatest hits. Like, if I'm thinking like studio album, I would have to say, like, that Erotica.

Rob Loveless 

Is there a specific song or album that you feel that best represents Madonna's legacy?

Stefan Mreczko 

Hmm, that one I didn't prepare for. I was like, oh, let me see what I have to say today. I'll say Ray of Light, just because I feel like that was such a surprise album for her. It's it was such a shift in terms of the sound of music that we were hearing at the time.

And people counted her out at that point, you know, like they didn't think she had it, and she came back and did this like bizarre. It just sounded so bizarre and different than anything that we were listening to at the time.

And also, she sounded sort of like grounded, you know, it was her first album as a mom, and she it was like, mature Madonna, but then she's still having fun and, but, yeah, I'd say that the songwriting on that album is fantastic.

The sum of, I mean, the music, it's, and it's such a cohesive album from sir. Oh, but I'm sorry. I'm also gonna, I'm also gonna say sorry.

My second runner-up is Like a Prayer. Because, Like a Prayer is like, iconic Madonna, you know, like, you've got, Like a Prayer, Express Yourself, Cherish, like, those are like three huge Madonna songs.

I mean, she's got a duet with Prince on that, you know, it's, I mean, and that album was so definitive 80s, like rock pop, it's just, and it's, again, it's a cohesive album.

You, I would dare you to skip anything on listening to that. Like you could listen to that from start to finish. And it's beautiful and heartbreaking and wonderful and catchy. So yeah, those, those are my two.

Rob Loveless 

I'm laughing as you're saying that, because I feel like the song, Like a Prayer, is one of those that also transcends time like you can.

Stefan Mreczko 

Oh, for sure.

Rob Loveless 

Play it in any decade and people love it because. So, my sisters are born in 97, so they're a few years younger than me.

And my one sister in particular, now, any pop music that's on the radio today that I listen to, she's like, oh, this is embarrassing. Nobody listens to this. I remember in 2017 she's like, No one listens to Ariana Grande. But she loves, but she loves, Like, a Prayer for some reason.

And I don't mean for some reason, like, obviously it's a great song, but I wouldn't think that she would know that song, because she doesn't really listen to older music.

But last year, we were at my cousin's wedding, and they played it and like, I mean, we were all few drinks in, but like me and like our extended cousins were like, all on our knees, like, praying down to her.

She's like, waving her drink at us like a wand as she's singing it like. So, it just again it transcends times. All these years later, that's still very popular.

Stefan Mreczko 

Yeah, it's amazing the life that that song has. It's again because I've lived it. You know, when it first came out to me, it doesn't have, like, quite the impact that maybe it used to.

But I mean, when I saw her perform that on the Celebration tour this past year, I would marvel at the fact that, like, wow. I'm like, she's got this song.

Like, this is hers. Like, she did this song and it's, yeah, it's kind of amazing.

Rob Loveless 

Well, are there any little-known facts, or, like, fun facts about Madonna that you like to share?

Stefan Mreczko 

I tried thinking about this. I don't know if there's anything like, I mean, I'm sure that there are things that people don't know about Madonna.

Oh, well, yeah, I was gonna say Madonna is her real name. I think that's something that people don't actually quite know. Like, I think they think it's like a like, Lady Gaga.

Like, I think people think it's like that, but it's like, no, Madonna is her real name. What's another thing that is? Maybe she does know how to play instruments. I mean, she does play guitar

 You know, that's, that's something that she, she learned back in the early 80s. And then I think she sort of like, got out of it and then got back to it. So, yeah, she can play guitar.

Madonna Encounters (1:06:01)

Rob Loveless 

Nice. Have you ever met Madonna?

Stefan Mreczko 

Yes, so I have two fantastic Madonna moments. And I mean, I've had a couple up up-close in-person moments with Madonna. But the two that stand out the most was one back in 2015 I had, she was touring for her Rebel Heart tour, and she was bringing a fan up at every show for this one number, Unapologetic Bitch.

And at the Philly show, I was the esteemed, I had the esteemed honor of being that fan who got to go up and dance on stage with her.

So that was probably, like, one of those, like, life-altering moments where I'm like, I can't believe this is happening, and it was so quick. I'm so happy that there's, like, photos and videos that exist from that moment, because I can prove that it was real, you know, like, otherwise it would just seem like a dream.

But, yeah, it was other worldly like to be on stage in front of 30,000 people and singing and dancing with next to holding her hand, and, you know, like it was cuckoo bananas, like it was bonkers to just.

And I, I will watch that video and think, how is this even possible that this happened? It's so funny. Then, in 2019 for her Madame X tour, there was a part in each show where she would come off stage and sit in the audience and sort of like, do a little mock interview with someone.

And my friend and I had gone to one of the shows in Philly at the Met, and we, we dressed up in these crazy get-ups, like it was her outfits from when she first came out in the in that show, a sort of like a founding father. It was very like George Washington-esque.

That was her outfit. So, my friend and I did a DIY version of that. And I mean, they looked so hokey, but it was just to get the point. And her team pulled us out of our seats and put us in the makeshift seats in the aisle where she would come down.

And so, my friend and I got to sit for five minutes next to Madonna, and she interviewed us and spoke to us. And that was just bizarre and ridiculous, that I'm, like, sitting right next to her, and she's we're talking, and she had asked me, and of course, there's for the Madame X tour, she didn't allow us to have our phones out because she wanted it to be like an intimate experience.

So, all of our phones were were put away. So, there's no video that exists of it. I did find bootleg audio of it, which I'm not supposed to have, but I slapped it on the end of one of my episodes of my podcast, just because I was like, I have to put this out there.

Rob Loveless 

Yeah.

Stefan Mreczko 

But yeah. She had asked me, what did I think of the show? And I like, I was staring in her eyes, and I totally blanked.

I was like, in my head, I'm thinking, Stefan, you run a Madonna podcast, like, you have to know you should have something prepared.

And I just, I was like, I'm sorry, Madonna, I don't know what. I lost my train of thought.

But yeah, so those are my two like, where I interacted with her. I've had a couple other, like, super up close and personal moments with her, but like, no physical interaction where she, like, speaking to me.

But, um, yeah, but I'd say those two are pretty great.

Rob Loveless 

Yeah, that sounds amazing. What was she like?

Stefan Mreczko 

Um, I mean, she's a person, you know, like, it was, it was I, she's beautiful in person.

Like, I remember looking at her face and being like, oh my god, she's just like, glowing. It was, it was bizarre to be sharing the same space and having her like, you know, after being a fan of hers for so long, to have that person then interacting with you and, like, putting her arm around you and holding your hand, it was like, it was, yeah, it was bizarre. It was trippy and amazing.

And then I had to come back down from Cloud Nine and, like, live my regular life and go to, like, my regular job. And I was like, this sucks. Can I go back on on stage with Madonna?

Rob Loveless 

It's like that Pride video that surfaces every year, like, I'm gay. Move. Get out of my way. I met Madonna, let me retire early.

MLVC: The Madonna Podcast (1:10:20)

Rob Loveless 

Well, you did mention your Madonna podcast. So, can you tell us a little bit more about MLVC?

Stefan Mreczko 

Sure. So MLVC, I say, I always say, it's the Madonna podcast, your place for all things Madonna Louise Veronica Ciccone, hence the initials MLVC. We started back in 2019 where, in our sixth year of podcasting.

We do all different types of shows about her career, where, you know, we'll talk about favorite performances or favorite movies, but then we also have an interview series. I mean, I've spoken to dancers, musicians, choreographers, movie directors of hers that have worked with her, you know, people from her Blonde Ambition tour, from Truth or Dare.

We had last year, we had the 30th anniversary of her Girly Show. I reunited the cast for a Zoom. Today, I actually just put that on YouTube after, like, a year later, just to let everybody see it.

But, yeah, I mean, we've spoken to people who've worked with her, her personal trainer, you know, choreographers, directors of her movies, which has been great, you know? I mean, we've spoken to so many different people, songwriters, producers.

So there's, there's that element of the show, and then there's also an ongoing segment I call This Week in Ciccone, which is sort of like what she'd been doing this week, and we sort of recap some of her stuff, because in the way that I look at the show, you know, a lot of people will run their podcasts honoring a person like Madonna because there are other Madonna podcasts out there other than mine, but I sort of looked at it as, you know, she's still a living, breathing artist who's producing stuff to this day, and I didn't want to just be a legacy show where we're just sort of like looking back at her music and only talking about that.

I mean, we do honor her career and her achievements. But I also, you know, when her Celebration tour started, I decided to take on the title of unofficial Celebration tour correspondent. And so, I was interviewing people after, I tried to do every city that she had toured.

So that way we get sort of like listeners' reactions from attending the show. So, I, yeah, we covered, I think she did like, 80 performances, and I think we covered 65 of them. So, yeah, so it's fun, it's, it's something that I never envisioned doing quite this long.

And I, I don't have any plans to stop. I'm like, I'm already talking about, oh, season seven, next year, you know? And I, because I kind of feel like, well, why stop now? You know?

Like, I've been going as long as I have. I in my head, I sit there and say, season 10 has a nice finality to it, you know, but I'll see what's happening in, you know, when in three more years, like, if she's still going and coming out with stuff like I can't imagine, like me stopping the show, and then her doing something like a brand-new album, and like me not wanting to talk about it.

So, who knows? I mean, I'll say I'll wrap up in season 10, but yeah, who knows?

Rob Loveless 

Maybe season 10 will only be like the first greatest hits of the podcast, and you'll have like, another 30-year career.

Stefan Mreczko 

I mean, look, I'd love for her team to bring me on as, like, part of their PR, you know, but I do say also at the same time. I'm like, well, them hiring me, then I'd have to, I'd have to play by their rules.

And I'm like, I kind of think it's fun to sort of like, do the show on my own. And like, I can do whatever I want, but I would love to have her on, but at the same time, I don't need to have her on to sort of make the show what it is.

You know, I've been doing it for six years without her. She's she's there, she's the through line, through everything. But, yeah.

Rob Loveless 

Well, put it out in the universe. Madonna, if you're listening out there, reach out to Stefan.

Stefan Mreczko 

Always. I've tried, trust me, I've tried to get her on the show many, many, many times, but it just it hasn't happened yet. So.

Rob Loveless 

Maybe in the future, though.

Stefan Mreczko 

Yeah.

Rob Loveless 

Fingers crossed. Awesome.

Discover Madonna’s Discography (1:14:30)

Rob Loveless 

Well, as we're coming to the end of this episode, you know, for anyone who's never listened to Madonna before, maybe they're like a virgin when it comes to her music, where would you recommend they start at and why?

Stefan Mreczko 

So, I mean, I would say, if you're gonna listen to an artist, you know, to be fair, like, start from the beginning and just, you know, go chronologically from album to album to album.

However, if you're lazy or you don't have time, I would say cliff notes version would be Immaculate Collection.

Like, that's sort of like a really great base line to start. It's like a perfect Madonna starter kit because you've got, you know, all of the the big hits that sort of made her what she is today.

And then you can go from there and sort of like, pick and choose because she's got, you know, I always say songs, certain Madonna albums I listen to depending on the type of mood that I'm in.

And some people like classic Madonna from the 80s. Some people like newer Madonna. You know, I think it just depends on what type of music you're into and what you like to listen to.

I would, I would say, though, if you'd like a really great like to see like Madonna performing, watch the Blonde Ambition tour, because Blonde Ambition tour or Truth or Dare, like you can watch, like the HBO version of the of the Blonde Ambition tour, which is just the performance, and then Truth or Dare, which is great, because you sort of get a little bit of who she is, as well as these, Like beautifully filmed performances. So yeah, that's, I think that's a good place to start.

Episode Closing (1:16:04)

Rob Loveless 

And connecting it back to the tarot. Again, The Emperor in reverse is indicating that we need to make sure we're connecting our personal power to our ability to take action.

And The Emperor is viewed as a leader, someone who should feel empowered to break free of typical confines and structure, to take action that feels in alignment with their goals.

And I think through discussing Madonna's career, we can definitely see the parallels there.

She's someone who's always owned autonomy over her body and owned her own sexuality in a male-dominated industry, even when others told her not to.

She's constantly reinvented herself through different eras. She's faced controversy and pushed the envelope, but always remained an advocate and got her message across.

And regardless of whether she's your queen or not, I think we can all agree that she's definitely made major contributions to the pop girlies we see today, and she's paved the way for them.

And that is why she is referred to as the Queen of Pop. And you know, the Queen, that's another court title. That's somebody else who's a leader, who's not afraid to pave their way and their legacy.

Madonna is somebody who's definitely broken free of typical confines instructors and took that action to move her career forward, even if it wasn't considered quote-unquote popular at the time, such as supporting gay men and raising awareness around AIDS.

And along the way, she provided a musical outlet that let her gay fans escape through the music and feel free.

So maybe after listening to this, you know, vogue a little bit, hit the dance floor, let that energy flow to feel free and lose yourself in the music.

But also, more importantly, use those themes of empowerment within her music to really chart your own course.

If something's not feeling right to you and you're ready to make a move, now is the time to do it.

Really look within to see what you want and need, and then find ways to take action to move forward on your journey, even if that means breaking free of the traditional structure of what you thought was right for you or what others placed upon you.

Maybe it's time to do away with the status quo. Maybe it's time to take a different path on your journey forward.

And remember The Emperor is viewed as an authority figure who has the courage to lead and move forward, and we should have the courage to move our own lives forward in the direction we want them to go in.

Connect with Stefan (1:18:03)

Rob Loveless 

Well, Stefan, thank you so much for joining. This has been really fun to talk about. I've learned, I mean, I've known about Madonna's music and stuff, but I've learned so much here.

I think when we wrap up, I'm going to go downstairs, go on YouTube, and just like, watch all her music videos today.

Stefan Mreczko 

That sounds like a great plan.

Rob Loveless 

It's a perfect day for it. It's low, cloudy and overcast. I'll just, you know, get some, you know, an iced coffee. Watch Madonna. Sounds like a good Sunday.

But before I do that, can you please tell the listeners where they can learn more about you, your podcast, your photography, all that fun stuff?

Stefan Mreczko 

Sure. So, podcast, we're on Instagram, X, Threads @MLVCPodcast.

I mean, the podcast is also on YouTube, so if you want to watch, if you like to watch your podcasts, as opposed to just listen, we're on YouTube @MLVCPodcast as well.

Rob Loveless 

And after you're done listening here, definitely check out the MLVC Podcast. Again, that is the Madonna podcast.

Connect with A Jaded Gay (1:18:58)

Rob Loveless 

And for A Jaded Gay, you know the drill, please remember to rate, review, and subscribe. You could send any questions or feedback to me rob@ajadedgay.com.

Also, for more information on this topic, episode resources, blog posts, links to merchandise, socials, all that fun stuff, you can visit the website ajadedgay.com.

You can connect with the podcast on Instagram, TikTok, SoundCloud, and YouTube @ajadedgaypod. You can follow me personally, Rob Loveless, on Instagram @rob_loveless.

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Mmm-bye.