75. Sunday Dinners, Moonshine and Men (with Tate Barkley)

Snarky Opener (0:00)

Tate Barkley

And I had discovered by that time that when I drank, I just felt better about being me. I mean, just straight up, I just felt better.

It was, it gave me instant relief from, you know, the repression I was putting myself under in the world around me.

Episode Introduction (0:39)

Rob Loveless

Hello, my LGBTQuties, and welcome back to another episode of A Jaded Gay. I'm Rob Loveless and, today, I am a jaded gay.

Here we are, week four, I believe, of the jadedness. It's just been a little bit of a doozy, and for this time, it's nothing super major, just an annoyance.

So, I've been trying to grow my hair out for about the past four months now. When I first moved to Philly area, shaved it all off, and I'm like, all right, great, fresh start. I'm gonna try to grow it out.

Grow it long. But I was getting really kind of annoyed with it around the sides, so I decided I'll go to the barber and I'll have them just shave down the sides.

I'll keep growing the top out so I can do an undercut. So went to the barber, told him that.

I said, you know, just fade the sides in and then on the top, trying to grow it out so let's leave the length, but just make sure everything's just make sure everything's like, even up there.

Haircut starts off great. He starts doing the sides of my hair, and then all of a sudden, he gets to the top and just takes the buzzer and just shaves down it.

And I mean, not down to the skin or anything, but like, took off half the length of my hair up there. And at that point, I couldn't say anything, because he had already started shaving my hair.

And I'd just have a one shaved streak if I did. So now my hair is much shorter than I anticipated it to be. He also kind of butchered my sideburns.

Normally, you know, have a barber fade it in, but he just kind of did, like a hard line that just stops at the halfway point of my cheek.

So, there's, you know, my bald fade on the side, baldness on the side of my cheek, and then beard. So not a great look right now.

I mean, the haircut itself isn't bad, it's just it's not what I wanted, but hair grows back, and so we'll carry on.

Alcohol Addiction Recovery for Queer Men (2:07)

Rob Loveless

Anyway, today, I am excited for a very special episode. We have an author joining us today to talk about his new book, which just came out the other day. So very excited again to that episode, but before we do let's pull the tarot card.

Tarot (2:25)

Rob Loveless

So, we drew The Star, which is a Major Arcana card. And Major Arcana cards indicate big life changes or shifts. It's number 17 in the Major Arcana.

So, when we draw double digits, you know, we add them together. One plus seven equals eight, which is tied to infinity, success, and power.

And I think we talked about this before with The Magician, but the infinity symbol represents energy flowing freely, which we get in the number eight.

So, in traditional depictions of this card, there's a woman kneeling with one foot in a pond and the other on the ground, while pouring two pitchers of water on both.

So, to me, this card really represents Cups, which is tied to the element of water. And Cups is feminine energy so it's very meditative and nurturing, and it's also representative of letting our emotions flow freely.

But with the woman's one foot also being on the ground, you get some Pentacles/earth action there, which is kind of that masculine action-oriented energy.

And as you know, Pentacles is typically a grounding and stabilizing force representing prosperity. So, when we draw The Star, it's telling us that we must remain hopeful, because we're on our way to healing.

And we need to let our emotions flow to process them, but we also have to stay grounded in the reality of the situation so we can move forward.

And that grounding force might inspire us to get back into something we're passionate about, whether it's a hobby, friendship, or a job because we can really channel that healing energy within us by focusing on the gifts we already have.

Guest Introduction (3:48)

Rob Loveless

So, with that in mind, let's get into the episode. But first quick trigger warning.

This conversation does deal with a story about sexual assault, so if that's something that's a sensitive or upsetting topic to you, you may want to skip this episode or fast forward past that part.

So, there's your disclaimer up front. Listener discretion is advised. And with that, I'm excited to introduce our next guest.

He is a lawyer and author of Sunday Dinners, Moonshine, and Men. Please welcome Tate Barkley.

How are you today, Tate?

Tate Barkley

I'm doing great. Rob, thank you for having me.

Rob Loveless

Great. Thanks for joining us. For starting off, can you tell us a little bit about yourself, how you identify?

Tate Barkley

Yeah, I'm, I'm a proud gay man.

Rob Loveless

Awesome. And I like to ask all my guests, are you a jaded or non-jaded gay today?

Tate Barkley

Oh, it depends on the day, but today I'm going to be non-jaded, even though I'm at on the Jaded Gay. How's that?

Rob Loveless

It sounds perfect. So, kicking it right off. Um, you're, you've been a lawyer, and you also just have a new book coming out.

So, have you always been a writer? Is this a newer foray for you?

Tate Barkley

Well, this, this book was a little bit different. I, I always wrote, once I entered recovery, I always wrote a great deal. I journaled a lot, and I did my step work in recovery.

So, there was a lot of writing involved with that. But this book was really the first major endeavor at trying to write something.

And I didn't start off trying to write a book. I just started writing a lot of my feelings down about my dad, who had died, and then the next then it just sort of gained a life of its own.

Rob Loveless

So, let's start at the beginning and talk about the impact of your grandma's Sunday dinners. So, can you tell us a little bit about that?

Tate Barkley

Yeah, whenever I was younger, you know, I grew up outside of a small town in North Carolina called Statesville.

Very rural North Carolina, and you had to go to church. I mean, that's just the way it was around there. Everybody went to church, and there was a lot of instability around the house at the time.

But the one day that that had a piece about it, was the day that we went to church, and I would go back with my Grandma Cartman, and she had, like, this dance she would do, is she would make Sunday dinner. And it was the one fun, peaceful, safe place in my life at the time.

So, I kind of always equated, you know, that sense of safety to Sunday dinners with her.

Rob Loveless

And you also kind of touched upon before, your relationship with your father. It's the inspiration for writing the book.

So, can you tell us a little bit more about that?

Tate Barkley

Yeah, I mean, kind of, my dad died in 2012. And we never, I mean, it was very late in his life that we had that conversation about, you know, me being gay.

And after he passed away, you know, I still had a lot I felt like I didn't say to him and a lot that I hadn't dealt with. I mean, we had a childhood of tremendous instability. It was very chaotic.

My dad was a heavy alcoholic, prone to violence from time to time, so it created a very unsettling place. And I had so many issues associated with, with our relationship that I just started to write about that.

And I kind of just wrote, you know, a chronology of my life, and I shared it with somebody, and they said, you know, what's fascinating here is really your relationship with your dad.

I mean, that's the book here. It's, it's really this very chaotic and complex but intense and loving relationship you had with your dad with the backdrop of your shame of being gay and your alcoholism, it just makes, it makes for a good read.

And you know, they said there's a lot of books about coming out, there's a lot of books about recovery, but everyone's had a complicated relationship with the parent, and boy, yours is a humdinger of a complicated relationship.

So that's kind of how it the evolution of the book, being the memoir about my dad and my, you know, relationship.

Exploring LGBTQ+ Identity (7:52)

Rob Loveless

The book also reflects to, you know, through childhood, adolescence, early adulthood, your relationship with your father, Sunday dinners with your grandmother, and then your own awakening with your sexuality and your own journey to recovery.

So, tell us a little bit more specifically about that journey.

Tate Barkley

Well, for me, I, I had my first, I guess you could call it sexual experience, around sixth grade with my best friend. And I think that I knew at that, that point in time that I was attracted to other guys.

You know, I was in rural North Carolina at the time. I did not know any gay people. There were no gay people that I knew of. And I went to a church at the time, and it was, it was a hardcore, you know, Old Testament Church of, you know, being gay is an abomination.

And not only should you feel shame, shaming anyone who had those feelings was encouraged. It was the Christian thing to do to shame "those" people.

And in that kind of backdrop having these feelings, I always felt like I had something to hide, so I just tried to feel like my attraction to my best friend was something that was going to pass.

But as time went on, I realized that I was consistently, we moved to Houston, and I was always being attracted to these guys, and I didn't do anything about it, but I had my first, I think, real relationship in the summer of 1981 with a really good friend of mine.

And at that point in time, Rob, I knew, I mean, I knew that this wasn't passing. But, I mean, it was 1981 Texas, and, you know, I didn't live in a world where being gay was okay, so the answer was to repress it. Just try to be straight. And I dated girls.

Not to be too graphic, I had sex with girls just hoping it would just all freaking go away because being gay wasn't an option.

And just to sort of fast forward, I never really, I fell into alcoholism, you know, as I started going through college and law school in my early practice in law, and it really wasn't until I got sober that I came to terms with being a gay man.

Rob Loveless

There's a lot to touch upon there. You know, your first kind of gay experience with your best friend. We're definitely going to get to that in a minute.

But you talked about, you know, obviously growing up in a certain time in a certain place, in the Deep South, and then obviously growing up religious as well. It's like, kind of the unholy trinity of, you know, homophobia, so to speak.

Tate Barkley

It is.

Rob Loveless

I'm guessing, that had an impact on your coming out journey.

Tate Barkley

It is and, and, and it had a tremendous impact on my coming out journey, and that there was no coming out, you know, until, I mean, I was, I was 28 when I finally, 28, 29 when I started coming out.

But by then I was so deep into my alcoholism. And then once I got, you know, when I came out, it was to go to the clubs and go have sex.

So, I had reached the point to where it was okay for me to go drink and go meet guys for sex, but it wasn't okay anywhere else. I wasn't going to tell you I was gay. I mean, I might have sex with you, but I wasn't going to admit to you that I was gay, and certainly, no one else was going to know about it.

And then, like I said, once I got sober, I started dealing with it in a more real and honest way.

Yeah, but you know, my, the level of repression I went through for a lot of years was pretty intense, and I think it drove a good bit of my alcoholism and acting out in other ways too.

So, I'm not sure if I answered your question, but boy, that was kind of the experience that I had with it.

Rob Loveless

And going back to that first gay experience you had; I believe it was in chapter 11. You were you talk about your best friend in middle school named Jerry, and during your friendship with him, you started off talking about girls, but it evolved to you two beginning to explore your sexuality with one another and having some intimate moments.

And what really stood out to me there was in one part, Jerry put his arm around you and asked if what the two of you were doing was considered gay.

And you wrote, "In that moment of reaction, I realized the spell had been broken. What had been so beautiful and innocent was now something to be condemned. It was clear Jerry was questioning what we were doing. Now I would have to as well."

Now I didn't, full disclosure, I didn't have an experience like that when I was younger, but I think that concept of lost innocence is familiar for most men.

I mean, for me, I was probably 14 or 15 when I started realizing that what I was feeling for men was attraction, and the moment I realized that the rest of my adolescence was marked with this underlying fear of like, oh, shit, Am I gay?

So, going off of that, can you tell us a little bit more about your friendship with Jerry and the feeling of the beauty and innocence of what you had being condemned?

Tate Barkley

Yeah, absolutely. I mean, I'll never forget it. I met Jerry at the bus stop, you know, at the beginning of my sixth-grade year, and he and I became instant friends.

And we, you know, it's rural North Carolina, so you got to play football, otherwise you're a sissy. So, we were both on the football team too. And so, we would, you know, go back and forth to football practice together, and we literally became best friends.

And I think even to this day, there are very few people I've been more comfortable with than I was with him at such a, such a young age. But he was always talking about girls, and I got my first girlfriend.

Her name was Trina, and he was more excited about it than I was. I swear to God, he always wanted to know, did you kiss her? Did you kiss her? Did y'all hold hands? Y'all do this, you do that? You're gonna go over to our house, you know?

And I wanted a girlfriend, just I felt like I needed some cover, you know, because I was looking at other boys. And I knew I was looking at other boys at the time, and it just felt like, you know, I can tell my dad I got a girlfriend. I can tell everybody I got a girlfriend. So, I'm in good shape, you know.

Play football, got a girlfriend. I'm good. Check, check. And as time went on, we spent so much time together, and I think that he was, you know, curious about, you know, sex and our, you know, penises and stuff like that, and he trusted me, and I trusted him.

And what started with touching, and we would play a game called odd and even. So, the deal was is whoever lost had to do something sexual, touch the other person, you know, let the other person do something and, um, and it just grew into something that was more sexual, you know, between two young boys. It never went to like anal or anything like that, but it was certainly very intimate, touching, and it was really sweet and really beautiful.

But at that moment that you read about in the book, we weren't equating it with being gay, we were just equating it with being us and, and you can tell something had, had triggered him to think that maybe what we're doing was being gay.

And of course, I was enjoying the experience, and I just immediately, no what we're doing is not gay. You know, gays do this kind of thing. We're not doing that.

And because I was worried. I was afraid that the minute that they thought it was gay, that Jerry would just stop and, and I didn't want it to go away.

Rob Loveless

I think it's really interesting how you said, you know, you didn't equate it to being gay, because I talked about this in quite a few episodes.

And I think a lot of us experienced this, that a lot of us knew gay was something bad before we realized what it actually meant, and before that we even realized that within ourselves.

So, you're, it's like you said, it's just who you are. It's what you're feeling attracted to, and thinking that, you know, this is maybe normal, that everybody else is experiencing something similar to this, but not equating it with what society tells us is being bad.

Tate Barkley

Indeed, I agree. I mean, I agree. And it did change, that moment did change things for us because he began pushing back on us experiencing these things.

So, so, I mean, I think I talk about later in the chapter, Jerry is, is sad. I eventually have to leave. My dad moved us to Houston from North Carolina, and he was sad.

But our final time we touched. It was, it was the kind of hug that best friends have, not the kind of hug that, you know, sort of lovers have. And I think for him, once he said, you know, this is really homosexual acts that we're doing, I better not do them anymore.

And so, so he didn't. And in that, for me, not only was I disappointed, that was one of the first real waves of shame I ever felt. Jerry didn't intend to invoke that shame.

He was just sort of, you know, we shouldn't do that anymore. It wasn't his intention to make me feel ashamed, but I felt it because, you know, he felt like we needed to stop, because what we were doing was, you know, you know, an abomination. I mean, just like we both heard at church.

I mean, we, we both went to the same church even. That's what you heard, and that's, and there were no gay folks around. And to say, no, that's not.

You know, this is, you know, the time frame here is the summer of 1977 and you know, the only gay person I'd ever seen was on CBS Evening News, and they did a small report on the San Francisco Pride parade, and that was the only time I think I'd ever seen a gay man.

And I was watching the news with my dad. I remember that night vividly, and I was watching that news segment with my dad. And you know, the Pride Parade in San Francisco can be very festive and animated and dressed up.

And, you know, there were guys dressed up and, you know, with fairy costumes and all that kind of thing, having a good time and expressing themselves. And I'll never, I was laying on the floor in front of the TV, and my dad's chair was by there, and his foot reached over and kicked me.

And he just said, Bub, that was my family nickname, Bubba. Bub, I better never. I'll never forget it. Bub, I better never. And I knew what he meant. He didn't have to explain it, you know.

I better never see you act like that. And, um, you know, it took a long time to punch past that and come into acceptance as to who I was.

Rob Loveless

Adolescence, it's really, that age is really confusing, because your body is obviously beginning to go through changes as you're becoming an adult, but you're still very much a child.

You're impressionable, you're naive and innocent, and so you're getting these conflicting messages that are kind of contradicting what you're feeling.

And you're thinking, you know, I'm, I'm not a bad person, I'm not this, I'm not that, but I'm feeling something that people have labeled as being bad, and it's, it's very confusing.

And you know, talking too about adolescence, you go on to write about your raging hormones during eighth grade. And during that time, you went to a debate camp at Baylor.

And while at that camp, you were actually sexually assaulted by an adult, one of the coaches there, who you said, kind of right away, looked at you and gave you kind of, like, an odd way when you first met him.

So, can you tell us a little bit more about that and how you reacted and how you felt following that?

Tate Barkley

I didn't know what it was, you know? I remember the look and I would, you know, I was at the time, I was 14. It was in between my eighth and ninth-grade year, and I was going to debate camp.

And there was a debate coach from, from a high school down in South Texas, and he was one of the chaperones for the floor, we were using the dormitory there on the campus of Baylor University.

And of all places at a Baptist University, I might point out. So, sorry, had to take a little shot there. But anyway, so this coach, the first time we were there, he looked at me and the gaze he gave me, gave me this feeling. It was queasy and sort of uncomfortable.

And he kind of looked at me, and I knew it was in a desirous way. And I remember thinking to myself, maybe I'm not understanding this, but the chaperones would come and check on the boys every night, and he always came to our room, and he would come, and he would sit on my bed and get close to me.

And he was very touchy. And, and then we had this, this one instance where he kept telling me, oh, I got an article to help you with your case. You had to, you know, build a case in debate camp.

So, I was building an affirmative case to debate, and he says, I need, come to my room later, and I've got something to, an article that you need for your case, and then that's where this interaction happened.

When he opened the door, it looks, I guess he had just gotten out of the shower or something, but when he opened the door, it was just him in the room.

He invites me in, and he's got a towel around him, like I said, like he had just gotten out of the shower. So, he invites me in, he closes the door, and then he was holding it with his right hand, and he put his left hand and pulled me close to him and let his right hand release the towel, and he was naked, and he pulls me to him.

And, you know, I remember thinking at the time, you know, I just felt, you know, kind of frozen, and I was scared, but yet I looked and I remember feeling, you know, embarrassed when I thought about it later, but I was curious.

I wanted to see, you know, what he looked like without clothes on, and, and I looked, and, you know, I, you know, described the, the scene in a little more detail in the book.

You know, fortunately, before something incredibly intense happened, you know, one of the other chaperones showed up. But it was a, you know, Rob, sometimes I don't know how to describe it.

There was, I look back on it, and I remember I went to the pay phone. This is back when we had pay phones. And I went to the pay phone. I ran to the pay phone to call my dad and, and I called him and, and I just said, I think I need to come home.

And he says, well, you know, we all have bad days. Why do you think you need to come home? But I couldn't tell him what happened, because I just, I just assumed that somehow or another, and I don't know how I arrived at this, honestly, I've thought about it for 40 years or longer, that how this was my fault, but I felt that way.

You know what? I mean, I just felt that way and, and I wasn't, I don't, I wasn't clearly, I mean, as a 58-year-old man, I know that was not my fault. But why I felt that way at the time, I don't know.

And I remember telling my dad, I think you need to come pick me up, because he's like one of the debate chaperones, so he could pretty much do whatever he wanted.

And, and then my dad said, one of the moments my dad really rallied in, in my life, and he said, I will come get you. He says A lot's been sacrificed to get you there, but if you want me to come get you, I will come get you.

And somehow or the other, Rob, just him agreeing to come get me, just, just knowing that he would relax me, and we sort of talked through it, and then I decided to go back to my room.

I said, you know what? This, this is a big deal being at this debate camp, and guys like me don't get chances like this, so I need to stick this out.

And fortunately, that situation resolved itself, but, but, I mean, that's what I was thinking. I still get teary-eyed thinking about it right now, the feeling I had when I knew Dad would come get me, and then the fright I had when I didn't know what to do with that man or what he was going to do.

Rob Loveless

Thank you for sharing that. I can only imagine how difficult that must be, and it's terrible that something like that, you know, was able to happen at that time.

That obviously is a very, I can imagine, traumatic experience, especially as it relates to kind of, maybe recognizing your own sexuality, a little bit of, you know, you're talking about that curiosity.

Do you think that had any impact on your coming out journey?

Tate Barkley

Yeah, I think so. You know, when I came away from that, you know, I remember, you know, when I went home, once I went home from debate camp, I remember, you know, I remember thinking about it.

And, and there were two things that, you know, as I entered high school that, that I knew. I was still feeling some shame from that interaction with him, the debate coach, because I had looked and, you know, I guess I thought I was supposed to, who knows how a 14-year-old thinks, you know what I mean?

But I guess at the time, I was thinking, well, maybe you shouldn't have looked at his dick, you know. And because I did, you know, I should have just kept my eyes on him.

Uh, but what I was struggled with the most was, see, that's the kind of people gay people are. That was the conclusion that I drew. You know, I knew what he did was wrong, and I knew that it made me uncomfortable.

But in my own head, from my own experience. I'm like, see, that's how they, they, I mean because gays were the "theys" for me. You know, I wasn't one of them. I'd had an experience, I was attracted.

I looked and see, that's how they are and, and that, really, I'll be honest with you, it complicated and certainly extended the amount of time that I needed to come to terms with myself and to come out, you know, because I didn't.

I had two impressions of gays, you know, as, as I started, you know, if at 14 after, you know what we, that experience. And my, my impressions were the gays, because I didn't know any in real life.

I didn't know anyone in real life, and the gays I saw in the San Francisco Pride parade, and my dad had made very clear that I wasn't to be like that. I better not be like that. And then this, this debate coach that came on to me and made me feel really, really uncomfortable.

And the irony of the whole thing is the way he would look at me before that interaction in his room, the way he would leer at me and look at me, made me more uncomfortable than the actual interaction itself, if that makes any sense because I didn't know what that leering, you know, meant, I guess.

But so yeah, no doubt this guy played into a stereotype. And I thought, well, if I'm gay, I'm like that, and I'm not going to be gay. That's freaking that.

And if I got to repress and drink and pretend to like girls, then that's what I'm going to do, because I'm not going to be like it.

Rob Loveless

To your point, at that time, you had been presented with such limited representation of what gay actually meant that you had these two negative associations in your mind.

And it's imagine one scary for yourself, but then two also isolating thinking, you know, is this what it means? Is this what it means for me?

But you do write going on, onward into your high school career, you did meet some other potentially gay classmates.

There was a kid on your debate team who you said was more outwardly gay, and you two became friends, but he also made some advances, and you distanced yourself a bit for fear of being gay by association.

But I want to talk about the summer before your junior year of high school and your friend Rob. In your book, you wrote that you had suspected he might be gay, and the two of you had some playful moments testing the waters, similar to you and your friend Jerry.

But unlike that time with Jerry, you were now further into adolescence, and you had more of an intimate moment with Rob.

So, can you tell us about that?

Tate Barkley

Yeah, I mean, Rob was really a game changer, to an extent, in that this was very different from, from kind of what I experienced with Jerry earlier.

You know, with, with, yeah, Rob was on a rival debate team, and we met in a debate round, and we were looking at each other. And by that time, I understood kind of what some of these looks were, you know.

I had evolved enough to, you know, figure out what a couple two, three glances meant at that point, and we were both glancing at each other in that way that you, you look, but there's, there's a, there's a look you give to where you can be safe just because you're wrong.

Because if you're wrong and look that at somebody you know, you, as we say in my business, in the law, you need plausible deniability for everything that you do and you know, and you look, you know, you try to give a glance, and I'm attracted to you, but not really, if you're not gay, kind of look.

And so, yeah, so we began spending more time around each other in these debate camps.

And then I spent the night at his house one night, as you used to do in those days, and there was just, our hands were touching and the conversations were revealing and, and I just remember we went to in the summer of 1981 began, and two good girlfriends of ours, we went to the beach with them in the early summer.

And, you know, Rob and I had spent a lot of time with each other. We'd gotten so well we would hug each other when we would part, and we would, you know, kid about, I don't know, you kind of how you kid about, well, you know, if you kissed me, I'd kiss you back, but you, but we, you'd say it in a dismissive way. But what I remember about that day in Galveston at the beach is we'd, we spread suntan, you know, lotion, over each other.

But when we went out, we would go to the point where you would be about neck deep, and then we started intertwining our bodies together, and in a way that, that, that you knew, we knew that we were attracted to each other, and Rob was in the same environment that I lived in.

I mean, I call it the refinery culture. My dad worked in here in the Houston, Gulf Coast area. I mean, if you're working class, you're doing something in the, in the petrochemical or oil refining business.

And my dad worked in the plants. Rob's dad worked in the plants, and that was a good old boy, you know, hyper-masculinity culture that we were both a part of, and it was more of the same, really, it's just different work. You were in a chemical plant instead of a furniture plant like back in North Carolina.

So, so we had to be very careful. But you know, kind of the dance we did before our first time where you could hire intimacy, real intimacy, but Rob, we were old enough to where we started being honest and that we were attracted to each other, and it was, it turned into love.

And I think he was my first love, and I think I was his first love. But, but, but it too, I had that, I remember my parents had to go to North Carolina for a funeral.

We were had moved to Houston by this time, and, and I had Rob over for the weekend. You know, somehow, he got his parents to stay with me because my baby sisters and my parents were gone, and so when you're 16 and have an illicit love affair and you got the house to yourself, this is perfect.

I mean, it's freaking great. And I remember we had a delightful weekend, and then as we entered into the second day of the weekend, I remember Rob saying, I don't think we should do anything today.

I think we're doing this too much. And it was kind of like that same Jerry conversation, I mean, that I had, you know.

And, and then it was not more than two or three weeks later that I spent the night with Rob, and we had a great night, enjoyed one another immensely, and then kind of that next morning, he said, I don't think we should do this anymore. I just don't think it's and I remember my response, Rob.

He said, I just don't think we should do this anymore. I'm just feeling so guilty. I remember those words like they just happened three seconds ago, and, and I remember that I had this big, long pause, and I said, Me too.

And, and I said, this just, and I said, because it's not good for us and it's not good for the country. And you have to remember the context. It is, Rob and I, it's 1981 and it's, it's Ronald Reagan's world in 1981 and he did not condone the homosexual lifestyle, as he used to put it.

And we genuinely believed we were harming these great United States of America by being gay and, or expressing our feelings towards one another in a physical way because we were two boys.

And, and I remember it was my first heartbreak that I knew then that it was going to be over, but I understood why. And look, Rob was ambitious. I was ambitious. You know, at the time I was class president, I was, we, he and I had both won, you know, championships statewide in speech and debate.

We need, we were, we weren't rich. We needed scholarship money. And, you know, you didn't get scholarship money, you didn't get the awards you needed in high school in Pasadena Independent School District, a school district outside of Houston that we both were a part of by being gay boys, and we knew it.

So, we just knew, you got to end it and just get back to reality. And the reality is, is you can't be a gay boy and be a success, not here and, and that's what we did.

Rob Loveless

That chapter really stood out to me, too, when you said that Rob couldn't, said that he couldn't do it anymore.

And after that, you write about looking at your reflection in the mirror, and you thought, you can't lose yourself in this. You can't lose who you are.

You have to balance all this and don't tip over into being gay. And you were 16 years old at the time, so that's a lot of pressure for a kid to place upon themselves.

Tate Barkley

Yeah, my, my Rob, my justification. I mean, my justification for being in love with this wonderful guy, but yet not being gay, but I knew I couldn't be gay. I'm not gay. I'm not gonna be gay. It's just not an option for me, you know?

And like I said, it's Ronald Reagan's America, and it's 1980, 81 Texas. So, I was right. You couldn't be gay, you know, and have any success. It's not like my logic was off, you know.

It's just the world we lived in, the toxicity of the culture around us and, and I remember thinking I in my own head, I would do this calculus.

Rob is very, very special, and he's really incredible, and he's very, very smart, and he's a great debater, and he's a great speaker, and we're both going places, and he's very, very special, and we have a special friendship.

So, this is okay, what we're doing because of our special friendship. So, it's okay for me to do this. You know, I as a straight guy because he's special this way. Doesn't mean I'm gay, just means Rob's special.

And so, I mean, that was how I thought it through, and, and yet, when Rob, you know, when, when we decided to end it, the, I was, I mean, I was, I was, it truly was, I was heartbroken, and it would be a long time before I would have any, any kind of intimacy, or even straight up sex with another guy. You know, after that.

Rob Loveless

You know, talking through some of those things, you brought up Ronald Reagan a couple times, and throughout the book growing up, you detail, you know, from middle school through college, there were some major societal events going on that kind of reinforced the idea that you needed to repress your sexuality.

Like you mentioned, going to a Ronald Reagan rally and hearing homophobic remarks, and then the AIDS crisis. So, can you kind of go a little bit further about how those events impacted you?

Tate Barkley

You know, I, we grew up, I mean, in, you know, to give you, you know, a background of kind of my family, in 1976 we were still in North Carolina.

And in those days, everybody was still Democrats in North Carolina, but you were really had two different types of Democrats. You have the George Wallace Democrat, who was a segregationist governor from Alabama, you know?

Still believed, you know, segregation now, segregation forever, kind of racist Democrat. And then you had Jimmy Carter. And, you know, my dad was kind of a Jimmy Carter guy, but yet my Ma Barkley was sort of a George Wallace kind of guy. So, it was very, no matter where you went.

It was conservative. It was just, but by this point in time, Ronald Reagan, as a Republican, was picking up steam, because he picked up this mantle of the moral majority.

He picked up this mantle of the social conservatives, and so he was gaining a great deal of popularity, and, and he was, he was so good looking, and he had so persuasive that I got caught up in it, you know.

And by the time I was in ninth grade, I was a Reaganite and my friend Tony and I went to a Ronald Reagan rally in downtown Houston in about early ninth grade at this time, I think.

And I remember Reagan at that rally denouncing, you know, homosexuality, and that if these homosexuals, anytime they asked for any kind of right, it was a special right. I'm not giving them special rights, and I'm never to this day, I'm not sure what he meant by special rights.

I think special rights means homosexuals are not supposed to have any rights. It. And that's always, you know, when you're with a highly prejudiced, biased person, is when you're, they're homosexuals instead of gays, you pick up on that early too.

And, but I was a Reagan guy. I mean, he loved America. I loved his speeches, you know, it was, you know, yeah, USA.

And that's the kind of, you know, household I was raised in, and, but when, when Reagan, who consistently condemned homosexuality and consistently stood in the way of gay rights and help with AIDS, it, it created, you know, when I was young, I think I want, I was going to vote for people I wanted to be like.

And I wanted to be rich, and I wanted to be masculine. I wanted to be like Reagan. So, I guess I thought if I supported people like, even though my, my situation had nothing to do with him.

I was poor, in reality, gay, and had very limited opportunity, or what appeared to be very limited opportunity, in front of me.

Reagan really did not offer a vision that was going to help me one damn bit, but you could not have told me that in those days, and because he loved America, so I want to be like him.

So, it impacted me a great deal because he was my first political hero. You know, I got out of that over time. But, yeah, they had a big impact.

Tate’s Relationship with Alcohol (41:36)

Rob Loveless

Going on through the book you document about how later in life, so, or later in your academic career, so more through college and law school, is when you began drinking more, and how you thought repressing your sexual orientation was causing the drinking.

So, tell us a little bit more about that.

Tate Barkley

I think you, when I was in high school, by the time my junior, senior year, I probably drank just about every weekend, and, but I wasn't a daily drinker by any means.

And I had discovered by that time that when I drank, I just felt better about being me. I mean, just straight up, I just felt better. It was, it gave me instant relief from, you know, the repression I was putting myself under in the world around me. I felt like, you know, I was Superman.

Give me a good beer buzz, and I was Superman. And as I got older, this conflict of being attracted to guys and trying to repress it and live as a straight guy, it was getting harder and harder.

And getting more and more difficult. And you know, when I got to University of Texas at Austin, and it was really tough, but I managed. And when I got to law school, I was so busy.

I was working on going to law school at the same time. But still, it was there. And I think that I went into what I look upon as alcoholic drinking, probably my first year of law school.

And for me, alcoholic drinking, you know, my definition of it, you know, for me was whenever I literally had to drink every day to cope. It was clear to me that drinking was not a way to have fun.

It was a way that I was coping. And I think I crossed that line my first year of law school, you know. Fortunately, I managed to finish law school and pass the bar exam.

You know, that allows you to be an attorney, at least here in Texas and, and eventually went on to open my own law practice. The drinking, if I got drunk, I just didn't have to deal with the real me.

And I had lost so many friendships. By this point in time, a lot of my friends had pushed me away or ended their friendships because my drinking had got to the point to where I was just loud and obnoxious all the time.

And if you've ever been around an alcoholic, they're, they, you know, I can tell you this, that you go into, they can be very self-absorbed sometimes, as I was at the time, no doubt about it, when I drank.

And, I equated once, once I reached the point to where I decided that I needed to come out, and I started very gingerly coming out to people, my friends, I remember with one of my dearest friends from, from high school, she had stopped wanting to hang out with me because she just couldn't handle me being, you know, I was drunk all the time.

And I remember sitting with her when I came out to her and I told her, I said, look, I hope this helps. I'm convinced that the reason I was drinking so much is because I was wrestling with being gay, and now that I'm coming out and I'm being honest about who I am, I just know this drinking thing is going to take care of itself.

And I was convinced of that. I mean, Rob, I was convinced that, okay, coming out is going to cure my alcoholism. It didn't work out that way, because drinking then made it a lot easier for me to, I was still very uncomfortable around gay people.

I mean, I was willing to tell you I was gay, Rob, but I didn't want to be around gays because, well, they're gays. And, you know, I had spent my lifetime, you know, gays were those people, and now that I was one, or was willing to admit that I was one, I still had almost this inherent bias against my own people.

So obviously drinking made it a lot easier to go into the gay bars and so, yeah, so drinking played a role, not only in the repression of it, but just in the reason I said earlier, I think that I didn't come clean and honest about to myself about being gay until I got sober is because I had not, I did not have sex with a guy sober, which, you know, I did with Rob back when I was 16.

But once I came out, I was drunk every time. I was drunk, I was stoned, or I was something because I felt I needed to be, because I still had this inherent discomfort about this, being with another man.

And, um, so then alcohol became, you know, the, you know, the only way I could really interact with my own people because I still was holding all the shame.

Tate’s Coming Out Journey (46:57)

Rob Loveless

You mentioned Rob there, um, and speaking of him, you wrote in the book that after you graduated law school and started working, you actually reconnected with him, who you hadn't seen since high school, and you met him for dinner and told him you were struggling, and he revealed to you that he had come out as a gay man and was living openly, and he tried to instill the courage in you to come out yourself.

So, what was that experience like?

Tate Barkley

It was kind of what you want to say the beginning of the end of me being in the closet. I remember I was in my office, and I'd been working all day, and I just, I was just filled with this sadness. It was sadness.

Then I started to, to cry a little bit, and I just something, told me, call Rob. You still have his number. Don't you have his number? And so, I called him, and I didn't say why.

I just said, you know, Rob, if I came to Houston this weekend, would you have time to go to dinner? And because at the time, I was living up in the Dallas area, Dallas Fort Worth, Arlington area, and he said, yeah.

And so, we're at dinner, and I just start crying. There's just, I didn't say anything. I just started crying, and, you know, and he's a smart guy, he figured out what this was about, you know, and then that's, that's when we, you know, sort of left the restaurant and had this conversation, and he told me that he had come out and, and, you know, and talked about his process, you know, what he did, and in it was true.

I mean, hearing that, that he had done it and, and he was out in, in not hiding anymore, it was a huge help, I have to tell you.

I mean, I was thinking about this earlier, you know, being out, you know, not necessarily, you know, you don't have to run around and tell everybody, hey, guess what, I'm gay, you know.

But not being out, not hiding it, and not being in the closet. I mean, Harvey Milk was right. Come out, come out, wherever you are, because it's, it's the kind of the only way this works because I didn't know any gay people.

But I think if I would have known some gay people back in North Carolina in those days, this all would have been easier for me, for Rob. I mean, we're talking 70s, 80s now, so I'd like to think, I'd like to hope that things are easier for, than they used to be, though they seem to be regressing a little bit, but, which I'm very worried about.

But, but it was the single best thing he could do when you just know that there are other people like you, and they get through it and they can help you, it just makes this whole thing a whole lot easier.

But, but, yeah, that night with Rob was what I call the beginning of the end, the end of my being in the closet. He had done it and, and he had felt the same way I did. He had felt that shame.

That's why he said, we have to stop. I'm just too guilty. But now he was out and proud, and that made an impression on me, you know, he felt like I did, but he doesn't anymore. And so that was a huge help.

Rob Loveless

Definitely. And I'm sure that helped too seeing kind of, like, a positive gay role model there, compared to what you had equated being gay with when you were younger.

Tate Barkley

Right. And let me say that, that's exactly right, Rob, because this was not. Rob was not somebody on TV. It's not somebody I read about in a pamphlet.

This was a real, live person that I knew, that I had a connection with, and he was out, and he was proud, and he was with me. So, so, yeah, it's, it's, it's good.

It's, it's, it's, when you're out, it does a favor to so many people, not only to yourself but to the people around you.

I mean, because so many people still suffer so much shame with being gay, that, that, that the more out we are and the more support we offer our community, those who are out and who are not, the better off we all are.

Rob Loveless

Also, around that time too, you wrote about, um, you started seeing a therapist where you talked about repressing your sexuality and your drinking. So, what was that like?

Tate Barkley

Oh, you know, I, I came from this, this school of thought that one doesn't need to go to a therapist until I needed to go to a therapist, you know.

So, and I remember my first therapist, and I didn't want to tell her. I remember her saying to me, you're here for some reason, Tate, so just tell me what it is, you know?

Because I was, you know, not being direct with her either. And so, I didn't even want to tell a therapist who I had a confidential relationship with, a doctor-patient relationship was, I didn't even want to share with her, you know, that I, and I wanted it to be, I remember, I wanted it to be a woman and not another guy that I told that I was gay too.

You know, for some reason that made it, that was important to me, because women wouldn't be as judgey as other men would be, I felt.

And at least about being gay and so, so, yeah. I, she, it was a lot of work for me to be honest with her, but I'm glad that I went and I went to go see a therapist right after I saw Rob.

And it was just part of that process where I began to slowly, slowly come out.

Achieving Sobriety as a Gay Man (53:02)

Rob Loveless

And then following coming out, you went to rehab and began participating in the AA program. And through that, you befriended another openly gay man named Scott, and he introduced you to other AA meetings around Houston that were attended primarily by gay men.

So, what was that like, since gay bars traditionally had been a staple in meeting members of the community?

Tate Barkley

Yeah, I mean, that's, when I got sober, I mean, around that time, if you were to ask me what gay life was, I would basically tell you it was the bars and the clubs.

That's, you know, and in my drinking life after I had come out, but I was still drinking before I got sober, that was my life, and I only, I went to the bars to meet somebody to have sex with.

And I had some gay friends that we would do other things with, but primarily my entire experience with being gay up until when I got sober, was drinking and, you know, trying to have sex and to which I didn't think anything about. I used to kid with myself, I mean, you got to catch up.

You didn't come out till you were 28 so I, you know, I needed to catch up, you know. So, I went drinking and a lot to have sex. So, when I got sober, I realized that, I had met Scott, who was a gay guy in one of my recovery groups.

And I remember when he took me to the one of the first meetings that was attended, primarily, you know, AA meetings that was at, it was at a at a church that was a, you know, an open and affirming church.

And they had a lot of lot of gays who, gay men who were in recovery would attend these meetings, and I remember being so uncomfortable around all these gay guys. And in my head, I'm still thinking, am I?

I'm not like them, so I don't know if I'm gonna fit in, you know, because I'm just not like them. I know I'm sober now, and blah, blah, blah, blah, and, but Scott, he was in a relationship, a committed relationship, and I met his partner, and Scott was so nice. He would basically take me with him everywhere.

And Scott was just one of those wonderfully adjusted, recovering gay men. I mean, talk about being blessed to have him come into my life so early in recovery.

And we would go to the gay meetings, and he would share, and we would talk, and he would take me into situations where there were other gay men, and over time, I just became comfortable being around, you know, other, other gay men sober.

Because my experience with gay men up to that point had just been in the bars and, and I was also very fortunate that in Houston, we have a large gay population, but we also have a very large recovering gay population. And we have a clubhouse, it's called the Lambda Center here in Houston.

And, and I started going there for my meetings, and I say to myself going to Lambda for my meetings, which I hated doing in the early days, but that's where I grew up as a gay man.

I grew up in recovery as a gay man and, and, and to reach the point now to where I'm an open, proud gay man, and I love being around anybody in the queer community. I love our community.

Sunday Dinners, Moonshine, and Men (57:06)

Rob Loveless

So, telling your story through this book, what did you learn about yourself and how did you feel once you finished writing the book?

Tate Barkley

Oh, my goodness, I think, you know, I talk it a lot about in the book. I mean, there's so much of the chaos of my childhood and the antics of my dad, and this, this book, was, was a lot of work emotionally for me, particularly once I decided to, to, to pivot it, to talk about, to really talk about my relationship with my dad so much.

And, you know, in 12-step recovery, we do what we call a fourth step, where we share our fears and our resentments and all of those things. And I'd done a fourth step, and I had done a fifth step, which is where we kind of had confessed our defects and those things we'd done to others.

I'd gone out and made amends, and, you know, I had been working very, very hard in the program and as a recovering gay man. So, I thought, you know, hey, you know, I think I've reached a lot of the promises that being in recovery is all about.

But when I, but when I was about halfway through this book, Rob, I really one of the things we try to do in recovery is to forgive people, because if you haven't forgiven them, you know you're resenting them, and that can cause relapse. And what I realized is I had never forgiven my dad. I thought I had.

I had done all this work in recovery, Rob, I had been to a therapist. I had, I'd done the work, but at the end of the day, I had still not forgiven my dad, and frankly, I had still not forgiven my mom, the two most important people in my life.

I hadn't forgiven my dad for the chaos he caused us, for the shame I put myself through, I thought because of him for his violence towards my mom. And I hadn't forgiven my mom, because she always tried to keep the peace.

Countless times, I wanted to get in my dad's face, even if it meant a physical altercation, to say, you know, you are just a motherfucker. And I mean, I wanted to stand up for my sisters. I wanted to stand up for my mom, and I wanted to stand up for me, and she wouldn't let me.

She wanted to keep the peace. And I realized that I had a resentment towards my own mom, who had done everything in the world she could to protect me and to love me, and truly someone who's loved me unconditionally.

So, by the time I finished this book, I realized that I had forgiven my mom, and I realized I had forgiven my dad, and this tremendous weight came off of me.

And this book has given me that because, you know, reliving all of this at the end of the day, everybody was just human.

And reliving all of this, I realized that I spent way too much of my time looking backwards and not enough time being present, and this book has afforded me the opportunity to be present and to get rid of, and to forgive my dad and to forgive my mom and to love them for who they are. That's its big gift.

Rob Loveless

And did you receive any feedback from family or friends who have read this?

Tate Barkley

Yeah, I have. I, um, I sent copies of it to, you know, certain people. I mean, some time ago, I said, I want y'all to know what's coming. You know, I have four wonderful sisters whom I love and adore.

So, they got, you know, the galley, they got a copy of it. And then to my mom and to certain, certain friends have gotten copies of it and have read it. So, I did.

And so, my mom has not read it yet, even though I gave it to her, and I said, Mom, I want you to read it, and she hasn't.

And I dedicate the book to my mom because she's really a hero, I think, through all this and um, but I realized that, you know what, she loves me and I love her, and together, we went through so much. It's so chronicled in this book. It was like me and my mom against the world, it seemed like sometimes.

And you know what? She doesn't want to relive it, and that's okay by, by, by reading it. And I'm okay with that. And my sisters have read it.

And my older sister, she read it, and she was the one who was with me the most in the early days when it was so chaotic. And she, she read it, and she, she had a lot of faults, some good, some, not so much.

But she all my family's happy I did it because I had to tell the whole story, which I do in the book, about every, so much of what we went through, because I want the world to appreciate what resilient, remarkable women, my mom and my sisters are to have gone through, to had the obstacles that we had, and to turn out to be so successful and to so remarkable.

And, you know, so, so, yeah, it's, it's a testament, really, to them.

LGBTQ+ Politics (1:02:51)

Rob Loveless

And do you have any future plans to continue highlighting LGBTQ+ experiences or other underrepresented stories?

Tate Barkley

You know, I, I do. There's a lot planned around this book. You know, sometimes I think, you know, 10 years ago, Rob, I would have said, you know, it's, it's a good time.

You know, I felt like, you know, our community was, was growing, and we were being empowered, and we were being empowered by an increasingly thoughtful Supreme Court, and we were being accepted, and we were living in a time where, finally, you know, being part of the queer community as expansive as that is, and when I say queer, I mean all of us.

It was a good time that we were finally reaching a point, slowly but surely, to where we would be equal human beings in the United States of America, empowered with the same rights as everyone else.

What we are seeing now, and we see it in the state where I live in, in Texas, is what we're seeing now is a backlash to that, and slowly but surely, a strident and, and frankly, a strident and illogical Supreme Court.

Our Supreme Court is making stuff up and calling it the law, with some of the decisions that they're reaching here lately. These, these, these six folks that that form the majority now, and, and laws, especially across the south, to where they're rolling. They're certainly attacking the trans community, our brothers and sisters in the trans community.

And you can shut me up when you want, but I just want to say this. I'll tell you, for anyone in our community to think that an attack on the trans community is not an attack on all of us, it's just bullshit.

It is. It is an attack on all of us. And we're increasingly seeing with this recent Supreme Court case, where it's okay for people who offer services to not, you know, do work for you. To be able to discriminate against you because you're gay. That's a scary thing.

That Supreme Court case, it came down that basically allows small service businesses, they say service businesses, that if, that to, to refuse to do business with you on religious, if they have religious feelings against same-sex couples.

It's is a dangerous precedent the Supreme Court has set, and it's a long-winded way of answering your questions. But I'm concerned about where we're at.

I'm concerned about how we're walking backwards, and so many of us have become out and we're married and we're doing well, but I just hope we realize that our civil liberties are under assault once again.

There is an element in this country that wants to take back what we'd fought so hard for, and we have to be vigilant. So, at every opportunity I have to point that out, I'm going to.

And, you know, I'm, I'm concerned about where this particular Supreme Court and where the, where the public dialogue about queer issues is going.

Rob Loveless

Definitely, because tying it back to your book, it seems like how some of the politics are these days is kind of going back to the Reagan era, maybe even a little scarier.

Tate Barkley

Yeah, yeah. No, I couldn't agree more. I absolutely couldn't agree more. But I mean, and think about it, you think about the approach that they're using now.

Because remember way back in the summer of 1978 when I had that experience with that debate coach, you know, gay men are pedophiles, and that's what you were told in those days.

And so, I have this one in, this one instance and I immediately assume that I can't be gay because that's going to make me a pedophile when I grow up.

You know, that's, and the commentary now is, is, you know, where they're grooming, you know. If you read this book, it's the gay community grooming my child to be gay. If you watch this show, they're grooming my child, you know, to be transgendered.

And that grooming, it's just another word for slinging ped, the whole ignorance of, you know, making that stereotypical conclusion that somehow gay men are, and gays are pedophiles who are trying to do this or trying to do that. It's the same commentary they used in those days.

You know, they're just changing the words up. And what they're doing, they're slowly using books and film and the arts and the schools to be the opening round of their battleground. And that's exactly what the forces of Reagan did in the early days.

They started small with the school boards, the dog catcher races, and then they worked their way up and, and they controlled to the point now to where they've got to six justices on the Supreme Court. One of whom, Justice Alito, says Our job is to look at the 14th Amendment through the prism of 1868 because that's when it's passed.

That's how narrow our interpretation has to be. That's the kind of people we have making laws in our country now. Oh, goodness gracious. I don't want to get you know. I'll sling this stuff all day.

So, you might better cut it, cut me off. I'll go all day. I mean, I am pissed at the Supreme Court.

Rob Loveless

I, I hear you. It's been extremely frustrating and very scary, and especially you mentioned seeing like, you know, the sensor on books and all that.

So, I think now more than ever, it is really important to have, you know, queer writers, queer authors, queer books, coming out, being out there, so that even in these dark times, people can find their community and find some representation.

And so, I'm really glad that you wrote this book and reached out, because I mean, one, I think for yourself, it was probably very healing and therapeutic to write.

But two, I think it could be very healing for anybody out there who may be struggling with their own, their own inner demons, especially as it might tie to addiction.

Episode Closing (1:09:27)

Rob Loveless

And, you know, going back to the Tarot today, I think it's really ties in nicely to the theme we drew the star, which is all about healing and hope and optimism on the future.

We really need to let our emotions flow freely, but also keep one foot grounded in reality, to kind of anchor us in our truth, bring us back to our passions, our interests, and really kind of focus on those, those interest areas, as areas to focus on where we can kind of help bring ourselves back from any sorrow, and kind of ground our healing in that.

So, thank you once again.

An Excerpt from Sunday Dinners, Moonshine, and Men (1:09:56)

Rob Loveless

As we wrap up here, I was wondering if you can actually read us an excerpt from your book.

Tate Barkley

Yeah, I wrote about this particular incident in. Anyway, to set the table I was in, at the time, I was in eighth grade, and we just moved to Houston, Texas, and I'm starting a new Intermediate School called Thompson, and my dad is insisting that I play football, and so I land out on the football team. And anyway, that's, that's the setting to this:

"I wish culture shock was my only problem at Thompson. Before coming here, I had developed an attraction to Latinos. There were a minority at Thompson, but one, one guy caught my eye named Jorge. Jorge was in the eighth grade like me, and he was also on the eighth-grade football team. We would often practice late and had to shower together.

His locker was close to mine, and I could practically feel him before seeing him walk into a room. I tried to avoid contact, eye contact with Jorge, who was close friends with this macho, slender guy by the name of Justin. Justin oozed what people call toxic masculinity, even at an early age. I saw him as a potential bully and didn't want to draw his attention. I got through most of the season without any incidents, but with only a few games left, the coach asked Jorge, myself, and several others to stay late to do some work.

By the time we made it to the showers, most of the rest of the team was gone. It was only Jorge and me with a few stragglers. I tried everything to resist, but the feeling of desire was overwhelming me. Jorge was walking around in a jock strap, laughing and wrestling the other guys, as he usually did. I could not resist looking at him.

He and I undressed at about the same time on this day, and I had stupidly made a point to pace myself, to track Jorge. We wound up showering next to each other, and I thought I was being covert and clever. I was looking for a quick glimpse of him, nothing more. I must have hesitated a few seconds too long while looking at him. I only wish I had turned away to make it seem accidental.

Jorge looked over and caught my glance. I watched his eyes widen as he realized what had happened. I tried to look up at his face, but as if I had lost all control, I wound up looking down at his penis again. Barkley, he said, catching my attention. I immediately felt flushed and tried to look away, but it was too late. I only became more aroused and started to develop an erection. My body had completely betrayed me. There was nowhere to hide. Then Jorge asked Barkley, are you a fag?

He started to laugh. Barkley up here, he said, directing me to look him in the eye. Are you looking at my dick? Are you a fag? Are you a fucking fag? He had caught me, and even though I denied it, I still couldn't stop looking at him. I think I was having an out-of-body experience or a non-alcoholic-related blackout. Everything was in slow motion. It was surreal.

So, Barkley, you like my dick, he said louder for anyone within earshot to hear. This had, this had turned from curiosity to harassment. So, you want some of it? He said, waving at me, are you a fag that wants some of it? Bile rose in my mouth. I wanted to wretch. Jorge, shut the fuck up, I shouted. I was not looking at your dick. Jorge looked at me up and down and hesitated and grinned.

What I thought was beautiful about him, changed into something weasel, like I wanted to run away, but now the entire locker room was listening and moving closer to us. I thought you might be a fag, he said. Then he said it the three words I'd been hearing all my life. Boy, you're as queer as a $3 bill. Jorge left the shower. I did not follow. I lingered in hopes it would all just go away.

Hey, Mincer, guess what? Barkley's a fag. I caught him looking at my dick while we were in the showers. Barkley wants my dick, the little fag. Mincer walked over. Thumped my ear. Are you a fag, Barkley? Oh, my God, we got a fag in the locker room. Mincer was a mean-spirited bully who loved to harass and insult everyone. Now I was in his sights as the worst possible thing, a fag.”

Rob Loveless

That was an excerpt from Sunday Dinners, Moonshine, and Men by Tate Barkley.

Connect with Tate (1:14:38)

Rob Loveless

Tate, thank you so much. Can you please tell everyone where they can connect with you and find the book?

Tate Barkley

Absolutely. They can, they'll find the book on Amazon and at any independent bookstore, and they can connect with me on tatebarkley.com.

Rob Loveless

Awesome. Thanks again for joining us.

Connect with A Jaded Gay (1:14:53)

Rob Loveless

Everybody, you know the drill for us. You can follow the podcast on Instagram, Instagram, TikTok, SoundCloud, and YouTube @ajadedgaypod.

You can visit the website, www.ajadedgay.com. You can reach out to me with any questions or feedback rob@ajadedgay.com. You can also follow me personally, Rob Loveless, on Instagram @rob_loveless.

And remember, every day is all we have, so you got to make your own happiness.

Mmm-bye.