91. Fat and Fabulous: Embrace Body Positivity (with Matthew Simko)

Guest Opener (0:00)

Matthew Simko

You can be gay, fat, and happy. It works. You can, you can be all three of those, right? You can wear the clothes you want to, you can travel, you can go out to eat, you can have friends, you can do all of those things. And that's something that, that we don't often see represented in media.

Episode Introduction (0:37)

Rob Loveless

Hello, my LGBTQuties, and welcome back to another episode of A Jaded Gay. I'm Rob Loveless, and today I'm a non-jaded gay because we got a little snow this past week, and I'm just feeling very wintry and I love it.

And I know, you know, snow is a controversial thing. Some people hate the winter weather, they hate when it's cold, they hate the snow. But truthfully, I like it when I don't have anywhere to go.

So, it snowed last night, which was a Friday night. I was out there shoveling a couple times that day just because the street I'm on does not get paved. And also, I've noticed that people don't shovel their sidewalks.

So earlier in the week, when it snowed, everything froze, and it was a giant sheet of ice. So yeah, I was out there shoveling, getting a good little back workout in shoveling the sidewalk. And I'm like that crazy person that also then decided to shovel parts of the street just because I figured, try to get some of the snow off this time so that way the sun can come out, shine on it, and hopefully melt it away. So, hopefully, it doesn't become a giant sheet of ice again.

But I mean, despite all that, I really enjoyed my little snow day yesterday. I was, you know, cozy in the house and sweatpants, just sitting on my couch looking out the window seeing the snowfall down.

And I know I said this in the bonus episode for January, but I love this time of year. Like, the winter time, it's like time to hibernate, retreat, just kind of be with yourself, focus on the year ahead. And I just feel like there's a lot of, you know, solitude, just kind of sitting at home, staying warm in the winter, being with yourself, and just kind of reflecting on what you want for the year.

Body Diversity (1:58)

Rob Loveless

Anyway, I'm very excited for another guest episode. We have a guest on today who's going to talk to us about the importance of body diversity.

This is something we've touched upon a little bit in past episodes. I know in episodes about gay representation in the media, we've talked about how in the past, stereotypically, a lot of LGBTQ+ representation was mostly white, straight-acting, muscular, attractive, quote-unquote, gay men.

And obviously, we've come a ways in terms of representation where we're having more dynamic representation. LGBTQ+ representation doesn't just look like one thing anymore, which is really important. And we've also touched upon, you know, some specific body issues for gay men in the gay men and body obsession episode, and then we did just talk about gay gym culture in November.

So again, I think body image is something that people of all sexualities and all genders struggle with, but I do think within the gay community, there's an added layer of complexity with how we view our own bodies and how others view our bodies.

So, I'm really excited to have this guest on today to talk a little bit more about how we can embrace a more body-positive mindset.

But before we do that, let's pull our tarot card.

Tarot (3:09)

Rob Loveless

So, the card for this episode is the Six of Swords in reverse.

And Swords is tied to the element of air, which is all about our thoughts, how we communicate, and our principles. And you can think of phrases like the Sword of Truth, and the pen is mightier than the sword. It's masculine energy, so it's very action-oriented. And in numerology, six is tied to balance, choice, and harmony.

Now, when we draw the Six of Swords in reverse, it's telling us that we might be struggling to move on from a difficult situation. And more specifically, we might be going through a personal transition that requires us to let go of a person, belief, or behavior that's no longer serving us. And easier said than done, am I right?

But while we know that we have to leave this thing behind, we might be reluctant to do this because we want to avoid any potential discomfort. And while we may not like it, we do need to recognize that discomfort is an important part of growth.

So, we need to ask our intuition to guide us toward those issues that still need to be resolved and to help us identify what we may be hanging on to that's no longer serving us. That way, we can then take appropriate action to address them and move on so we can achieve that state of harmony we crave.

Guest Introduction (4:16)

Rob Loveless

And with that in mind, I'd like to welcome our next guest. He is a style and lifestyle expert who's proving that big boys do in fact, do it better. Please welcome Matthew Simko.

Hi, Matthew.

Matthew Simko

Hey, Rob.

Rob Loveless

How are you today?

Matthew Simko

I am good. I'm excited to dive in. And thanks for having me.

Rob Loveless

Of course. Thank you for coming on the show. Very excited to have you here. To kick things off, would you mind just telling the listeners a little bit about yourself, what you do, how you identify, your pronouns, all that fun stuff?

Matthew Simko

Sure, my, my pronouns are he/him. I identify as a gay man. I have been in marketing for 15+ years. And in probably 10 of those years, I started really building an online community through social media, through Instagram mostly @simkosays.

I blogged for a couple of plus-size men's fashion blogs as well. I've worked with all the big companies that do plus-size men's clothing. And really, a couple of years ago, just focused on creating a space where sort of, we could just, you know, be ourselves on the internet and compliment as we will and, you know, just show our life every day.

Rob Loveless

And I like to ask all my guests, are you a jaded or non-jaded gay today and why?

Matthew Simko

Part of me is, okay, so part of me, it's sort of like, oh, he's very hopeful, very optimistic. You know, I believe in the magic and in the small things. And then another part of me is just very jaded, you know, from living a good chunk of my life on the internet and, you know, understanding what's out there. So, I would skew a little bit more jaded than not jaded. But you know, I always leave room for the magic.

Rob Loveless

That's good. I think that's a pretty realistic approach. Like a 50/50 there, you know?

Matthew Simko

Yeah, depending on the day. Truly.

Matthew’s Career (6:06)

Rob Loveless

Exactly.

Well, that being said, you know, you did kind of touch upon your background in marketing, how you've worked towards building up a little bit more of an online presence and an online supportive body-inclusive community.

So, can you talk to us a little bit more about how you became a style and lifestyle expert and your career journey?

Matthew Simko

Sure, um, gosh, I don't know, maybe ten years ago, I really sort of had a difficult time reconciling this idea of being a bigger person and always having that portrayed as somehow unhappy, unhealthy, you know, not aligned with other people or places in society.

So, I started myself down a journey of, you know, how do I become the best version of myself that I can. And I've always been really interested in style and fashion and lifestyle, and social media was a place that people were sharing this.

So, I started writing for a blog at the time called Chubstr. And it was all about style for big guys, right? And at the time, it was really small. It was sort of like a volunteer gig, just to build things up. But that, of course, gives you credibility, right? When someone else co-signs on you, you're able to then take more opportunities.

And then from there, I went into hosting live events. Twitter was huge at the time; I had a big community going there. And then Instagram, probably in the last five or six years, is where most of my followers ended up.

What is Body Positivity? (7:44)

Rob Loveless

And what does body positivity mean to you?

Matthew Simko

It's interesting because I don't think that there's one sort of blanket answer for it, right?

On some days, it's literally just getting through the day in the body that you're in. And, on other days, it's a full celebration of the body that you're in, the body that you're crafting, building, you know, cultivating.

And so, for me, it's about just being the best person I am in the body I'm in and not apologizing for who I am, how I look, how I present. Because I think we're conditioned as a society to apologize for things that we shouldn't be apologizing for or apologize for things that we have no control over.

So today, this is how my body looks. And I don't apologize for that.

Rob Loveless

And I think that's really important because I think, you know, a lot of people can feel that, you know, they'll be happy with their bodies when they reach this milestone or do this thing.

And it's good to have goals and want to work towards something, but it's important to also celebrate yourself along the way to and also not to derive your happiness from achieving one certain thing or getting into an obsessive pattern where you're trying to, you know, achieve something unattainable because you have to be in the gym ten hours a day and eat a cracker and a bottle of water.

Matthew Simko

No, you're right.

And you know, I hate to make sports analogies because sports are not my thing at all. But, you know, we talk about when you're watching football, right? You cheer at every down, right? The whole way the team progresses, you know, to the endzone is a celebration, not just when they make that touchdown, right?

And it's the same with our lives and our bodies. We have to celebrate them all along the way. I've been, there's times where I've been much smaller and more confident than I had been when I'm much bigger. There are times like now where I'm very confident being much bigger than I was when I was smaller.

And both of those are valid. They don't have to exist mutually exclusive of one another because we're the only ones that get to decide what to do with our bodies.

And once you realize that and you don't apologize for it, and you present that to people without any sort of, shroud of, you know, uncertainty, insecurity, you know, or, or otherwise, that's when people start responding to it.

Plus Size Fashion (10:11)

Rob Loveless

And I think body image is a struggle for a lot of people, you know, outside of the gay community as well. But I think, for gay men, there is an added layer of complexity around that from, you know, media portrayal in the past to, you know, maybe some past trauma where you try to, you know, inhibit perfectionistic tendencies in adulthood to avoid rejection in any way possible.

And we're gonna get more into the LGBTQ+ focus of body positivity. But I do want to focus first on, you know, your community, your platform, your online presence.

So how did you leverage your career from starting to write those articles for Chubstr to creating more of your fashion content on Instagram to really amplify your message of body positivity?

Matthew Simko

I will say that there are two pieces in here that I've sort of always done throughout my life.

One, I've been fortunate enough to be able to surround myself with people to build a great community and lead those communities, whether it was in school, after school, you know, through my nine-to-five career, online, or otherwise. I've always liked to build community and sort of have a voice for people.

For fashion and for style, I think that there's a lot of mystery around style or a lot of mystery around fashion, right? Or there has to be certain labels, certain brands. And a real turning point for me was I was rewatching Project Runway at one point, right, when that original Heidi Klum, Tim Gunn, Michael Kors, right?

And I don't know what season I was on. But I said, "Michael Kors wears the same thing. Every episode." He wears jeans and a blazer and a black turtleneck, right, or a t-shirt or some variation of that. So, if he can do it, like this big fashion designer, why can't other people just stick with what they know?

And that really, to me, changed my thinking a little bit of not always having to chase a trend, not always having to have some that look different and unique, but all about what fits your body well. And what do you think looks good on you? And what do you respond to?

Because when you carry yourself with confidence and when you're happy, other people see that and they reciprocate it.

Rob Loveless

As you're talking about style and what, you know, looks good for you and what feels good for you. It's making me think of, I never watched the original Queer Eye for the Straight Guy. But I did watch the reboot. You know, that came out on Netflix, I think starting in 2018.

But the one thing that was always interesting to me is how, you know, if there were people on the show who were, you know, when it comes to Tan, and he's doing his, you know, fashion and wardrobe makeovers, when it comes to people who might be heavier or be insecure of their bodies, they tended to go towards looser, baggier clothing to almost kind of hide.

And Tan was saying when you do that, it's actually the opposite, like you think you're going to look smaller, being in looser clothes, and society has, you know, groomed you to think you should be hiding your body if you don't adhere to this model image, where in reality, you can dress nice and wear tighter fitting clothes that actually accentuate your body for the body that you have, not the body you think you need.

Matthew Simko

Well, we all have a shape, right? And your clothing should show that shape. It's when you start wearing giant clothing and sacks and things like that where you start to look, you know, just sort of like this amorphous blob walking around. Right, regardless of your size, right?

So, I don't think that that's exclusive to size. But you know, I've always said that I actually think, I think the bigger you go on the size scale for clothing, the more tailored your clothing should be, quite frankly. And it's a really hard thing to find, right?

I wear a 3X in most things, and it's hard to find things that don't have giant sleeves, aren't super long, right? Or the shoulders are out of shape. But that shouldn't be the way it is, right?

We should be continuing to, sort of, pull those, that clothing closer into our body or accentuate the areas that make us feel good about ourselves.

Rob Loveless

With that being said, through your online social media, you partner with a lot of beauty and fashion brands, with the latter focused on providing inclusive plus sizes. So why is this kind of representation so important in the age of social media?

Matthew Simko

I mean, social media is showing everything as you know, this perfect illusion of everything looking perfect. And perfect people and perfect bodies.

I do think that the pandemic brought a real shift to it, of sort of non-traditionally attractive things, whether that be your home, your landscape view, you know, how you consider yourself to present. I think that we're seeing more of that on social media because it's more of that real factor today.

What I also think is that people think as your body, if you have a bigger body, right, and you're a bigger person, that there aren't options out there for clothing, or that you can't dress well. And I wholeheartedly disagree with that.

It may take a little bit more effort to, to wear things that you feel good in and you feel represent your body well, but it is possible. And it's not just through one or two places. We're seeing it more and more through different brands and different stores.

Harder for men than it is for women, though. Plus-sized women do have more opportunities for clothing than big and tall men. It's just, it's a fact.

Rob Loveless

And that brings us to our next point, too. And you kind of touched upon this too with saying, you know, definitely encouraging the importance of more tailored clothing. But what are some fashion tips you have for plus-sized men?

Matthew Simko

Oh, my gosh, the list is so long, right?

First of all, is know your measurements, not just the size on a label, right? You can walk into almost any tailor or a good dry cleaner, and they will measure you for free.

If you're not comfortable doing that, if you've been in a wedding before and rented a tuxedo, they have your measurements on file or whatever those, you know, big stores are, Men's Wearhouse or whatever that we get rentals from, right? They'll know it.

Because in one brand, an extra-large could be you know, 46 to 48, chest, right. And, another brand, it could be a 50 to a 52 chest.

So, by knowing what your actual measurements are, you're then able to look at size charts on your favorite stores' websites and understand what's going to fit you and not be surprised.

I see it all the time, right? Especially, especially guys who are in that, like, extra-large to 2X range, right? Where you really start having to look outside of, like, the mass market stores and the big box stores. All of a sudden, they put on an extra-large and they're like God it doesn't fit like I'm extra-large in all these other things, but not this one.

Well, it's not that your body's changed. It's that the sizing is either vanity sizing or completely skewed for what's on the label. So, know your measurements.

Rob Loveless

Can you tell us what vanity sizing is?

Matthew Simko

So, a lot of times brands will skew the measurements of their clothing to fit within a size that a consumer thinks that they want to be, right, whether it's bigger or smaller.

There's also part of it in simply the construction of clothing, right? Especially sort of fast fashion and lower-cost clothing.

And I learned this when I worked in retail is, essentially, manufacturers stack up, you know, 100 pieces of material. And they have a press that comes out on top of it and cuts out the pattern of a t-shirt. Well, if you've ever cut a big stack of paper, you know that it's not a clean cut the whole way through. Usually, the ones on the bottom are a little bit wider than the ones on the top.

Which means in the exact same brand, the exact same piece of clothing, a large from the top of the stack is very different than a large from the bottom of the stack. And brands don't often reconcile for that. So that's the first thing that's messing with our head.

The second thing that's messing with our head is that widespread of this is what an extra-large is. And that's what an extra-large is. There's no standard throughout the industry of what you can call an extra-large.

I think in some parts of Europe there are where you can see in some brands, they go from like zero to five, even for tops. And that's because I think certain regulations say that that's what they have to do. This is what a one is, this is what a two is.

But I mean, you know, we've all seen vanity sizing our whole lives, but trying to make us feel better about wearing a certain size. But really, none of that matters.

Rob Loveless

That's really interesting. I didn't know that. I guess, you know, the dark side of working in retail, you learn some of these not-so-great secrets.

Matthew Simko 

Well, hasn't this happened to you? Right? Where you'll buy something, you know, in blue, and you're like, God, I love this, this is perfect.

And then you go and you buy it in green. And you say, is this the same thing, right? Like, it doesn't fit the same or the buttons aren't the same or maybe the construction's a little bit off.

It's because there's no consistency between it. Maybe they found a less expensive supplier for the green fabric than the blue fabric, but they're still selling it as the same brand, you know, the same model the same type, if you will. But they're essentially separate garments.

Rob Loveless

I mean, I haven't noticed that so much with shirts. More so jeans are where I struggle with it. I'll go to one store, and then I'll be a completely different size in another store and, you know, depending on cut or whatever.

And I have trouble too with length. I'm not the tallest so. But, um, yeah, it's like you brought it up before that between different stores, the sizes are so different.

So, I guess that's a good reason why you should know your measurements to know, you know, I guess one, to maybe avoid the psychological freakout you might have where you're like, oh my God, this brand is saying I'm a size bigger than I thought I was, when it's not you, it's the brand.

But two, also just making it easier to go right for what you're looking for instead of kind of dealing with all the retail confusion.

Matthew Simko

No, that's a big part of it, and checking size charts is something that I do and everything that I order and I buy, right? Then you get the things in the mail, you get them shipped to you or, you know, wherever you get your clothing.

And I've done it before where I've actually measured the clothing that comes in. And, sometimes, they don't match the size chart, whether the size chart for that particular item didn't apply. It's possible, right? Whether it's an idea of the stack, you know, smaller on the top and wider on the bottom, and they picked, you know, the median measurement, I don't know.

But it happens all the time, especially ordering stuff, you know, like kind of Amazon, you know, you get like real weird sizing and some stuff there, especially in there, it'll happen.

Rob Loveless

It's like the meme online, where it's like what you ordered versus what you get and they're two completely different things.

Matthew Simko

Totally, totally. That's it.

Body Image & Gay Culture (20:46)

Rob Loveless

Well, we did touch upon this a little bit at the beginning, but now kind of circling back.

You know, I feel body image for men, in general, is kind of an interesting concept because for so long, I think there were a lot of conversations around the negative messages about body image for women from media representation.

You know, billboards, magazine covers. I think it probably did occur to some level for men in general, but it wasn't as talked about, you know? Eating disorders were quote-unquote a women's disease. Men couldn't suffer from that, or else you were gay, you know?

But especially within the LGBTQ+ community, like I said, I think there's another layer of body image issues for gay men because for so long, there's been this, you know, you got to be the slim, young-looking twink, white, muscular, straight acting, all that stuff.

So, can you share your experience with body image within the gay culture?

Matthew Simko

Sure. And I think that sort of archetype that you described is what media portrayed gay men as, right? Like, that was their cookie-cutter of how to present as a gay man, right? You were slim, kind of this, this twink build, you were the life of the party, kind of all of those stereotypes that we think, right?

Personally, I have, I always say that I've sort of been like all levels of big, right? Like, I've been, like, sort of big to really big. And for me, I felt like I never quite fit in any of those media portrayals of a gay man.

Whether it was physically, whether it was how I sounded, how I talked, the things I did, it never quite felt right for me. And that's a struggle, right, to say, gosh, we're already a marginalized community. But now I feel marginalized within this community, and who else feels this way? Right?

And I think on some level, by creating categories within the gay community based on body types, right, we do, you mentioned twink, right? Now we're talking about twunks. So stupid, right?

We've got otters, we've got bears, we've got chubs, we've got a... what am I missing? I'm missing something in here, right? Bulls, muscle bears, they're like, all these different ones. Well, how do you fit within those, right?

Are you, are you slim enough to be an otter? Or are you a cub all of a sudden, right? Are you big enough to be a chub, or are you a bear? Are you muscley enough to be a bull, or are you a twunk? It's like, what are we talking about here?

So, at the end of the day, it's all about finding your tribe within the community. But it takes a long time to get there. And it takes a long time to get around like-minded people who you can really connect with.

And it's not all about physical, even though that's how we tend to lead. I believe, as gay men, we tend to lead a lot with our physicality and our attraction to one another, whether that be through friends or relationships or hookups or any of that, right?

But we know at the end of the day, it doesn't really matter what we look like, it's who we are and how we get along with people and sort of the roles that they fulfill in our lives. And do they make you a better person or part of your life a better person?

Are they, are they the levity you need? Are they the reality check? And that doesn't matter what their size is or how they present physically.

Rob Loveless

And you mentioned the groups before, the subdivisions of the twink, twunk, otter, bear. It's very confusing because I think those are all relative terms because the definitions vary greatly from people you ask.

Like, I know, somebody considers, you know, you have to be hairy to be an otter, otherwise, you're a twunk. And then, you know, within the bear community, some people, you know, just consider a guy who's not a stick, who has some body hair to be a bear where other people, you know, there's the subcategories of like, muscle bear, all these things that...

I'm sure it started out good intentioned, where it was people trying to find themselves and their community. But I think in a way, it might actually kind of typecast a little bit, and people might make assumptions.

And it might actually, we might be in a time now where we should be more inclusive, but it might actually be kind of having us break away into cliques, so to speak, as opposed to being a unified community.

Matthew Simko

I mean, how many times have you heard it from someone where they'll say, oh, that's a bear event. I'm not going there. Right? Or, oh, it's all twinks at that bar, you know, or Friday nights are, you know, muscle daddies only.

And it's like, that precludes other people from attending those events, right? And then you're around people who look just like you or people who like the way you look, right?

So, you're sort of never getting the other side of it. It's like a self-fulfilling prophecy. It's not great.

Rob Loveless

Earlier, you kind of touched upon, with media representation, that for so long, it was pictured what we kind of talked about that archetype.

I think today, we still have come aways in body representation, and hopefully more diversity in general within LGBTQ+ portrayals, but it still seems like there's a pressure for gay men to adhere to a certain body size.

And again, maybe it's not even just what the archetype used to be. But it's like, you know, I'm considered an otter, I have to maintain this otter persona, or I'm a bear, I have to maintain this bear persona, or somewhere in between.

So, what factors do you think are fueling gay men to still feel pressured to adhere to certain body roles today?

Matthew Simko

I think there's always going to be trends, right, of sort of what the body type is.

I think even on social media, we're seeing, you know, we're seeing guys who consider themselves thicker, right? Or they say, winter bulk, or things like that. And they're sort of like barely, a little bit bigger than they were before, right, which minimizes, sort of, you know, people who are in bigger bodies.

And that sort of says, you know, we saw it in fashion in the 2000s, right? That a size eight was plus size or size 12 was plus size for women. It's like, what? Like that, that's, that's just insane, right?

So, I think we see that with trends that come through on the internet. And then I think within those groups, there's pressures of doing it, you know, if you've identified as a bear, or as a, as a twink, or any of these different roles, and you either, you know, intentionally or unintentionally change your body, or your body changes. What happens to that group of friends? What happens to that community? What happens to that network?

So, I think where we're more likely to maintain where we are, whether it's bigger or smaller, based on the people that are around us. You know, at the end of the day, I really think it comes back to we're the only ones that can be responsible for and in charge of our bodies.

And we have to remember that, like, we're, we're our own stewards of our body, and there shouldn't be outside influence on it. And we're all guilty of it myself, you know, I'm sitting here preaching this, but myself included.

Queer Body Representation in Media (27:36)

Rob Loveless

And do you think that, you know, with trends changing, and, you know, how there's been increased, inclusive LGBTQ+ representation in media and in bodies, do you still think that there's a lack of body diversity today?

Matthew Simko

Of course, because people at any size can be sexy. People of any size can be attractive, are attractive, are sexy.

Fat people have sex, skinny people have sex. Incredibly, societally normative, attractive people have partners and have sex. The opposite end of the spectrum does, too.

So, you know, I do see more and more representation and inclusion across the board in media. Do I think that fat people are equally represented? No.

Do I think that a lot of progress has been made in not typecasting to, you know, the funny best friend or the kooky sister, you know, or the sort of gruff construction worker? I do. I think there's been progress in that area.

But I think more needs to happen. Which is why, you know, I love seeing the holiday movies with gay couples, and it's not all about, you know, one was sort of turned away and brushed off because the family wouldn't accept them.

No, it's a family that really accepts their child as being a gay person and wants to set them up with another gay person to be in a relationship. That happens in real life. It should happen in the media.

Not all of it is a coming-of-age story. And that tends to be all we see in the media for gay people.

Rob Loveless

Are there any specific character roles, TV shows, movies that you think show authentic representation of a plus-sized LGBTQ+ person where they're not just being reduced to the funny sexless best friend or the quirky sister?

Matthew Simko

Do you remember Looking on HBO a couple of years ago, and Daniel Franzese that's in there, and there is a sex scene with him as a big person, as a big man?

And that group, I think, does a better job of sort of representing what a group of gay friends looks like today. And I think that that was, it was really celebrated and talked about.

And the show has since gone off-air. But you know, for me, it was a big moment to have other people seeing that something that I always knew is that, you know, all about bodies are worthy of attention. And everyone wants to be lusted over on occasion.

Rob Loveless

I think it's really important because I actually, so I watched Looking when it came out, but I haven't revisited it since. So, I kind of forgot about that scene.

But I was asking just because, strictly from what I watch, in terms of LGBTQ+ shows, I feel like you really don't see that too much. So, I was wondering if there might be any additional characters that are, you know, more recent that might have flown under the radar that I haven't seen.

But it seems like there might just be like you said, an issue where there's still a lack of body diversity within representation of LGBTQ+ people.

Matthew Simko

I don't think that there's, at least that I know of, anyone new that's sort of flown under the radar. I think we see it more on Drag Race today, that we see larger bodies and that they're celebrated.

But that's on a competition show, right? That's not a representation of individuals, you know, on a broader scale. It's a representation of drag queens.

Drag queens also come in all sizes, just like any people come in all sizes. So, it's good, it makes me happy to see that.

Promote LGBTQ+ Body Diversity (31:00)

Rob Loveless

So, what can we do as members of the LGBTQ+ community to address the lack of body diversity?

Matthew Simko

I think it's, you know, keep showing who you are and the life you live.

Because what I, what I see and why I share outfits on Instagram, why I share my life on Instagram, is you can be gay, fat, and happy. It works. You can, you can be all three of those, right? You can wear the clothes you want to, you can travel, you can go out to eat, you can have friends, you can do all of those things.

And that's something that, that we don't often see represented in media. On social media, we get to curate what we see and, both for ourselves, what we share with people and what we see from other people. And there are other people out there doing just that, and there's ways to do it.

And I think continuing to show that, show your support, interact with those accounts, interact with those people.

I'll tell you that one of the most, this is, this is probably some deep-seated trauma coming to the surface, but one of, one thing that really impacted me was a couple years ago, I had shared a photo on Instagram, right? I was shirtless at a pool, and I said, you know, some days I, I feel better in a bigger body, some days in a smaller body. But right now, I feel pretty good with exactly where I am, right?

And a guy from high school messaged me on Instagram, and was like, hey, I really love seeing what you're doing. And it makes me really happy. You know, it's nice to know that, that you're out there living your life exactly as you are.

And he's straight. He wasn't someone that I was necessarily a friend with in high school. Someone I didn't have any issues with but didn't necessarily know.

But that made me realize that other people are watching and other people are sort of getting what it is I'm trying to do. And it was very fulfilling for me to realize that.

Rob Loveless

That's awesome. Especially in a sea of trolls to get a nice message like that. Because the internet's, you know, a trash can. People can be really terrible on there.

Matthew Simko

Yeah. And for someone who I don't necessarily consider an ally in any aspect, you know, was probably surprised that they were following me in general. But I don't know.

That's why I think that when we put ourselves out there unapologetically, that it's harder for people to try and fight against that. And harder for people to try and break you down.

So, you know, to me, if someone on the internet calls me fat, I say that, that's correct. And in my world, that's not a bad thing. Right? It's, that's not a negative to me. So, move along.

Like, find something else, you know? Talk about bad skin on some days or dark circles, or, you know, a haircut that I did myself that was a big failure, or, you know, the stain on my shirt that I didn't realize I had, like talking about that, like, I agree. None of that's great.

But like to call me fat? Like, it's also, like, boring and tired. Like, think of something new.

Rob Loveless

One of my friends had told me that she was listening to a podcast about body image and stuff and how, she's plus-sized herself.

And she was saying how they were talking about kind of reclaiming the word fat because a lot of people have put a negative connotation around fat, whereas the podcast she was listening to was saying like fat's more so kind of just like a body description. It shouldn't be an insult.

So, I was wondering, what are your opinions on the word fat? Is it something insulting? Is it, you know, are you thinking it should be something that we change the meaning of it, that it's not a negative?

Matthew Simko

You know, I. Society tells us it's a negative. I don't believe it's a negative. I think it accurately describes, you know, bodies or attributes. But I think it's the connotation behind it. I think it's the way it's presented, right? And that makes all the difference.

We've heard it forever. It's not what you say. It's how you say it. And that continues with the word fat. It's, you know, being in the LGBTQ+ community, it's part of calling someone gay. Like, it's just a fact. That is correct. I'm gay, right?

You may think of that negatively, you may be trying to make that a negative. But in my world, it's not a negative, it just, you know, is an identifier of my sexuality.

So yeah, I think, I think we've done a good job of reclaiming the word queer, right? Like, it's, it's less taboo, and we're seeing it more and more within the community.

And within the fat community, it's, it's a term that people use because it accurately describes who you are and how you present yourself. So, I don't think there should be a stigma around it.

I find myself changing my language to make other people feel more comfortable. Or, you know, you've, I've never, I don't think I've specifically experienced it.

But when someone calls themselves fat, and someone's like, no, you look great. It's like, no, I know. I'm saying, like, I'm saying, I'm fat, and I know I look great. So like, they're not mutually exclusive.

Or when someone says, like, you look great for a big guy. It's like, well, no, like, don't put that qualifier on it, right? Because you're then lessening that opinion of me.

And it should not be seen as a negative in any aspect. It's just a fact.

Stop Body Shaming (36:12) 

Rob Loveless

And I know you've touched upon it, that there might be strangers on the internet who call you fat and it's kind of just, like, you know, move along, whatever.

But have you experienced any other forms of body shaming, maybe in particular, in real life? Or from friends or family, and how have you dealt with that?

Matthew Simko

So, I tend to not shy away from confrontation. I am happy to say, what do you mean by that? Or, I'm not sure I understand. Could you, could you repeat that? And usually that, that makes people take a step back.

You know, I've had it, certainly from family. Not recent, I'm gonna say not in recent years because I feel like I'm very vocal about my body. You know, liking being a fat person. And fat spreads an entire range of sizes from, like, kind of fat to really fat. And not, neither one is better than the other. But yeah, I would say that I, that I tend to address those questions head-on.

There was a couple of years ago where I had to lose a lot of weight in order to have necessary surgery. And people would give me tons of compliments at the time. And I always pushed back with, you know, it's not something that I really want to talk about, or, you know, I know that you think that this is a compliment, but it's not something that I, you know, feel comfortable acknowledging.

And that really surprises people as well. I think there's a lot of, like, subtle subconscious. You know, bias, even if people aren't saying things, I think they don't want to sit next to the fat guy on a plane.

Or, you know, they see, see a fat person eating a perfectly average typical meal and think like, you know, of course, they're that big, look at what they're eating. It's like, well, everyone eats turkey clubs. So, like, you know.

Rob Loveless

Do you, do you think that might be a cause of why people body shame? Or do you think it might be an insecurity of themselves or feeling threatened seeing somebody being confident in themselves in a way that society tells them they shouldn't be?

Matthew Simko

Yeah, I think that there's, it creates some dissonance there to see someone living in a way that, that maybe somebody else doesn't think is correct or right. And that goes for body type, that goes for, you know, any, any section of, of lifestyle.

I think that there's a lot of insecurities that people have, that they carry with them. You know, it's like any kind of unconscious bias.

And there's also this idea of, this idea of like, well, it wouldn't be so hard to find clothes if you were just smaller, so why aren't you?

You know, and for some people, it's not within their control. Their, their bodies work against them, their medical conditions, and other people like me just don't want to be smaller. And that, that's why. You know, sure, it would be easier to find clothes if I was, but I don't want to be so.

And we all have the right, I believe as people, to be comfortable, to feel good about ourselves, and to experience things.

So, I've had this discussion with, with other friends, you know, who are in different journeys of their body acceptance at any size. And there's this idea of like, you know, well, I shouldn't get a second seat on the plane because, you know, quote-unquote normal people don't.

And my, my rebuttal is always what? Don't you want to be comfortable for six hours? So, like, buy the second seat because the average-sized person in one of those seats is uncomfortable. Think about the larger-sized person in one of those seats. So, we all deserve to be comfortable. So, do it, right?

Do that. Just because, like, someone says you should, don't. You get to decide, right? No one else. But a lot of that is what we're conditioned, what we've been conditioned to learn or to expect in society.

Rob Loveless

You know, you kind of touched upon this a little bit earlier about saying, you know, you'll see people posting things on social media about their own bodies who are in perfectly average-sized bodies that then minimize the experience of somebody in a larger body.

And I'm thinking for myself, personally, you know, when I was younger, I so, I struggled with an eating disorder when I was younger. And I was always, I was so critical of my own body, but I would vocalize that in front of people.

And now, I'm at a point where I still have my insecure moments. I mean, things are not great every day, but I'm in a much better place. And I kind of just, you know, I'm still critical of my body, but I'm kind of like, at the end of the day, my body is my body. I'm trying to do what I can do.

But now, being on the other side of that, I have noticed that there will be people who are smaller around me, who maybe I'll hear them go, like, oh, I ate so much today, I feel so fat, or oh, I look disgusting. And they're skinnier than me. And I think that's a way of, like, perpetuating kind of some fat shaming inadvertently.

So, I'm wondering, especially from the view of somebody who's, you know, who is a plus-sized gay man, are there ways within the gay community that people may be inadvertently body shaming by criticizing themselves and projecting onto others?

Matthew Simko

Absolutely and constantly. It is happening all the time. Those examples that you just gave, right?

Even, you know, we've got a great quote from Drag Race, right, calling someone a skinny legend, which is, like, what? What? If you're not skinny, you're not a legend? Like nobody's ever called someone a fat legend, like that never caught on.

So, I think we are doing it all the time. A lot of those comments, one of the things a friend told me a long time ago was the phrase, keep your eyes on your own plate. And I think that is all aspects, not just food, right?

Always keep your eyes on your own plate. Because, like, if you feel like you ate too much, you can keep that to yourself. You don't have to share that with everyone else.

You don't have to earn food; you don't have to earn rest. We are all, we all deserve to be nourished and to be recharged.

So, I think we are doing those things, you know, all the time. Myself included. I think I'm, you know, perpetuating that in my own mind at certain times.

And it's not until we sort of understand that we have that internal bias that we're able to see through it. Whether it be for body size or otherwise.

Be Confident in Your Body (42:33)

Rob Loveless

You know, you mentioned earlier in the episode that some days you're loving your body, and other days are like, you know, this is the body I'm in. What are some ways that really? I guess it's twofold.

One, as a person in the gay community, how do you really build your confidence and find your confidence?

And two, especially in the realm of body image within the gay community, how do you, what are some, like, tips you might have for living a more confident life?

Matthew Simko

Tips for living a more confident life, gosh. I don't know. Today doesn't feel like my day to be, to be preaching those. But you know, there is something to be said for, like, your body does a lot for you, period.

It's able to move you where you need to go. If you have a less abled body, you know, it's able to, you know, to do the things you need to do to get through your day. And you know your body better than anyone else does.

I always remember that I will always be more critical of myself than anyone else will be. And, by being critical to myself, it probably hurts more than anyone else being critical to me would, or critiquing me would.

So, you know, I always try to remind myself that I've had this body, you know, since I was born. It's gone through a lot of versions, you know, and a lot of change, but the days that I'm dissatisfied, I remember back to the days where I was satisfied. And the days that I am satisfied, I think I feel great today.

Remember, remember this when you feel like garbage, you know, someday, or, you know, when your favorite jacket doesn't fit anymore. Just remember, you've had plenty of other favorite jackets in life. So, you're gonna have another one and it's okay. And I think building confidence works on how we speak to ourselves, right?

We have to speak positively to ourselves because that has a real impact on us in our lives. I personally, I'm not a huge fan of affirmations. I know people love, you know, to recite things for themselves, stand in a mirror. My therapist is constantly trying to get me to have more affirmations in my life.

But I think there's moments that hit me sometimes where I think, you know, I'm doing all right. I'm, I'm happy with myself the way I am today. And when I don't feel that way, remembering back to those moments.

Even the most quote-unquote beautiful people in the world have their days, right? The most confident people in their bodies have their days as well. And that's just part of human nature. It's just who we are as humans.

Rob Loveless

As you were saying that, it made me think of, there's a quote from Anne Hathaway, and I'm going to, I'm not going to get it verbatim. I'm going to misquote it. But it's something that I heard her say, once that, it really kind of stood out to me, that I never thought of.

But she said, you know, bodies change, and they're beautiful at every point of the way. Like, and as you're getting older, you know, your body is going to change.

I'm now 30, I'm not gonna have the same body I had at 20. And just like somebody who's in their 40s, or 50s, like, not even in terms of how it looks, but you know, you might be stronger in your 30s, you might be able to lift more weights or walk longer or run longer than you are in your 40s because we're aging.

It's part of our bodies, but it doesn't matter. You know, obviously, we want to take care of ourselves, but, like, your body doesn't need to have a six-pack to be beautiful. Like, it's going to change and that's okay.

Matthew Simko

We expect people to stay the same, right? And the worst thing we can do as a person is stay the same. We're meant to evolve, right?

I heard it actually. You said Anne Hathaway. I heard Kelly Clarkson say something one time, where she was like, my voice today is very different than 20 years ago on American Idol. And that's okay. Right? I'm not trying to sound like I sounded then. I'm trying to sound like I sound now.

And it's the same thing with how our bodies look, right? There are lots of times today that I like my body more now than I, when I look back at pictures from 10 years ago. There are days when I look back at pictures from 10 years ago, and I liked my body more then than I do now.

So, it's, it's kind of finding the, the peace in at all or, you know, being able to, to understand that this is who I am today. It's not who I'm going to be tomorrow, but it's not who I was yesterday, and that we all have the power to change.

You know, whether it's our mindset, whether it's elements of our physicality, we can do that. We shouldn't allow other people to do it. It's something that we should really be, you know, the leaders of ourselves.

Rob Loveless

And going off of the encouragement that people should embrace the bodies they're at now, as part of, kind of, addressing some of the body image issues by not perpetuating, projecting body criticism onto others. What are some ways you think people can learn to love and accept their bodies as they are now?

Matthew Simko

It's a, it's a good question. You know, I think I talked a lot about it of reminding yourself on the days you feel good to, you know, notate this for the days that you don't feel great.

But also, you know, if you're missing out on things in life because you think you don't have the right body for it, you're wrong. You do have the right body for it. Any body can, you know, go scuba diving or go to the beach or fly on an airplane, like, it's okay.

It might be, you know, society may have made it more challenging for certain people than others. But if the opportunity presents itself, don't hold yourself back because you don't like how you look in a bathing suit, you know, or a dress or suit or whatever it is.

And I think that a lot of times, people miss out on things in life because they don't like how they look. Or they get less satisfaction out of an event or something that, you know, that they've attended because they're not happy with exactly how they look. But that's only hurting ourselves. And that's only hurting our possibility for what the future, for what the present could bring.

And it's reminding yourself that you owe it to yourself to have fun. You're allowed to have fun at any size.

Rob Loveless

I think, too, a layer of complexity to that is, you know, as members of the LGBTQ+ community, I think a lot of us have learned that, we've learned this incorrectly, that we don't deserve love or happiness, because we are other. We don't adhere to the status quo.

But that's not true, but I'm sure it's just like bodies, too. It's told, you know, if you're skinny and have a six-pack and this and that, you're going to be happy and everyone's going to love you. But sometimes to get to those places, you're miserable.

And then, when you're there, you're even more anxious because you're trying to maintain something that's unattainable. People might only be liking you for the, you know, the surface level than what lies below, and you tend to feel even lonelier and more depressed than you were when you didn't have the quote-unquote perfect body.

Matthew Simko

And it goes the other way, too, within all of these sort of like gay subsets and subcultures, right?

Let's take muscle bears. Maybe you've been busting your butt to try and get to a certain size at the gym. And you're getting all this external praise for it, but to you, it's just not what's important to you anymore or not what you want to focus on.

And you know, you're, you're less active in the gym or whatever, but you've been trying to attain a certain standard. There's sort of, you know, there's negativity that comes with that as well. Or saying, like, gosh, if I could only be this size, it's not always smaller, it's bigger.

A lot of the times, too, especially within, you know, the LGBTQ+ community. And I think we all put a lot of pressure on ourselves to look a certain way or present a certain way within our subcultures.

And I think that that pressure, it only negatively impacts us. And I think we do it both subconsciously and consciously on a regular basis.

Rob Loveless

For my experiences, when I was younger, too, I felt you had to adhere to a certain body type to be attractive to what I would refer to as more so, the gay scene where it's, you know, the, the people you're seeing on TV where it's, you know, the club goers, the, you know, shirtless this and that, whatever.

And my fear was, well, if I'm not attractive to these people, then no one's going to want me. I'm rejected by heteronormative society, and I'm rejected by the own people that are supposed to be my community.

And I think too, I mean, I'm sure it happens that people are critical of people who don't adhere to that body. So, and you talked about this before, but I think it's important to love yourself and kind of realize you can be hot, you can be sexy, and attractive, at any size, regardless of what you're wearing.

Matthew Simko

Yeah, I, there's actually this, this lyric from an old Destiny's Child song, that, that says, there's plenty of people who don't like me, but there's ten times more who love me, and I love myself.

And I think of that sometimes anytime someone, you know, is negative, or I think they may have a negative view of me, or, you know, think I'm incapable because of whatever it is. And I have to remind myself, there are a lot of people in my life who love me just the way they are.

There's a lot of people who like my body exactly the way it is. And I like myself. And I like how I look. And I think that that's what's really important.

To remind yourself that even if you don't fit into a certain mold, there is an entire group of people somewhere else that will like you exactly how you are today. And you may not be able to find it on the surface, especially if you're in, you know, more remote areas of the country or the world. You turn to social media to find those people and to connect with one another. I think it's any group that is sort of on the margins understands that.

Rob Loveless

And I think when you find that person, you know, we all tend to have our own insecurities in our body, you know, that we always will find those and point those out. And other people won't see them because we're more critical on ourselves.

But I think when you find that person, and I'm even talking romantically, but I'm talking about, you know, a community of friends, whatever you will be enough as you are with the body you're bringing to the table, with the personality you're bringing to the table, with all those, you know, little quirks that you may have.

Like, it's not going to be too much for the right people.

Matthew Simko

Well, yeah, sometimes the things that we hate in ourselves are the things that other people like in us, which is always like a complete, like, mind trip, that somebody likes those things, whether it's personality-wise or body-wise.

And I think that it's important to surround yourself with those people who say, no, that's something I love about you, or like, I know you're insecure about it, but I want you to know that I recognize that, and accept that about you. And that's like, that's the path to radical acceptance, I think.

Support Body Diversity (53:04)

Rob Loveless

Are there any, you know, brands that you think are very inclusive of body sizes, or any, you know, social media accounts that you think promote body diversity, specifically LGBTQ+ body diversity, that you think people listening to this podcast should support and follow?

Matthew Simko

Yeah, definitely. So, I think that Savage Fenty does a really good job of promoting body inclusivity. Their sizing is really inclusive. Most of what they have is nongendered, as well.

And a lot of stuff is trendy, and just really nice too, mostly loungewear and underwear and things like that, that I think they do a really good job on. And not even if I, you know, I buy pieces from them. But regardless, I love following along, even if I don't purchase. And that's, you know, Rihanna is behind all that.

There's a couple of people on Instagram who I really like to follow. One of them is my buddy, Kyle, @kylefrominsta. He's a Canadian-based, sort of plus-size blogger. You know, he talks about 2X style. He's got really cool, like, his aesthetic is really awesome. But he shows his body for exactly what it is. And I really, really, really appreciate that.

And I just think, like, following along in anyone's journey on social media, you start seeing how they accept themselves, you start seeing how they become more confident and they put themselves out there. And that that really makes me happy.

The second one is my buddy, John, his Instagram is @theroadtodapper. Another Canadian. He calls himself a mid-size guy extra-large, it's where he puts that. But he talks about his struggles with his body.

He bought a pair of 36 jeans; he's always worn 36. He put them on the other day, and they didn't fit. And he talks about in a reel all of the emotions that he went through during that and how that made him feel. And that's not something that we see a lot in men.

He's not part of the LGBTQ+ community. And I think to see, I think to see someone like that talk about it breaks it down even more. And it makes me feel like we're making real progress with our bodies as a society.

So those are my two guys that I always love to follow, especially for style advice. Plus, they're just nice guys, too.

Body Boundaries (55:23)

Rob Loveless

Well, as we're wrapping it up, you know, for anyone who's struggling with body image out there, do you have any advice or words of wisdom you'd give them?

Matthew Simko

I think it's really about finding what feels right to you today. And remembering that we're always going to be harder on ourselves than anyone else is on us. But remembering that you deserve everything else, everything that anyone else does, right?

Regardless of the body you're in, to be happy, to be comfortable, to be accepted, to be loved. And it is possible, at any size, at any appearance. And just know that if not today, it's tomorrow. If not tomorrow, it's the next day.

And we get a chance to decide, you know, what comes next. And we have to be in charge of that.

You know, I give this pep talk a lot, mostly in a business or work setting about, you're the only one that can drive your bus. And when you're the bus driver, sure, there's certain stops along the way that you're required to stop at. But you don't really have to because you're in charge, you hold the wheel, your foot's on the brake or the gas.

And you can choose to stop at those spots because they're the right thing to do. Or if you see an angry mob at one of those stops, you can choose to keep going on because it's not the right place for you to be right at that time.

You get to decide who's on, who's off, right? You get to decide, are they too loud? Are they too quiet? So, when you're the bus driver, you kind of have ultimate control.

And that's the kind of person that you have to be in your life. You get to decide who's in my life, who's not. Just because I feel like I should let a certain person in doesn't mean I actually have to.

Just because that boundary has never been set doesn't mean that it's not time to set it today, whether that's personally with our bodies, with other people, with family, with friends. You're driving the bus of your own life and no one else. And I go back to that a lot to remind myself of it.

And it's gotten me to a point where, a majority of the time, I can accept myself for who I am.

Rob Loveless

I love that. And I really love your mention of boundaries and that too, because I jokingly say that for the podcast, 2024 is the year of boundaries.

We kicked off the new year with talking about, you know, what they are, how to identify them, how to implement them. I see a lot of the topics I've been, you know, covering this year so far have really kind of carried back into that.

So, I think that's a great example of, you know, one, embracing your body positivity, but, two, also use those boundaries to protect yourself from people who are just going to criticize just because they want to.

Matthew Simko

Yep. And you know, the bottom line is, Rob, that, like, it's okay to be fat. It really is.

Society may tell you otherwise, people may tell you otherwise, your own mind may tell you otherwise. But there's nothing wrong with it. There just isn't.

So, it's something, you've done nothing wrong, right? You're still, you're still able to have a full life and be the person you want to be. So, I think it's something we have to remind ourselves of.

Episode Closing (58:24)

Rob Loveless

Definitely. And, tying it back to the tarot, Six of Swords in reverse. It's reminding us that we're going through a personal transition and that we have to let go of a person, belief, or behavior that's no longer serving us.

And in the case of this, I think it's really reminding us that a lot of us grew up in a time where we were told we had to adhere to a certain body size if we wanted to be loved and accepted and wanted, one, in the general sense in heteronormative society, but two, an added layer of complexity within the gay community of having to adhere to what we'll call the '90s archetype of the hairless, muscular, straight acting twink.

But we have come away since then, where we're seeing more bodies, more diverse bodies being represented in the media and on social media. And I think that really should be a call to action for us to accept our bodies where we're at.

You know, it's okay if you want to work on yourself and try to hit a certain goal, as long as you know to love your body along the way and that you're not putting too much pressure on yourself to conform to some kind of archetype.

And so, if we're having a day where we might not be feeling the most confident in our body, maybe use that as an opportunity to look inward. Are we criticizing our body because we genuinely don't like what we see? Or is it because of other people having projected their own body insecurities onto us?

Or maybe for some of us who grew up with certain body scrutiny as kids, there's, you know, some trauma around that, some shame and fear of rejection that people may define your worth by your body.

But again, we need to confront those beliefs inside us, even though they may be uncomfortable, to really unwrap those and recognize that we are beautiful as we are and our bodies serve us and they do incredible things for us whether we're that shiny, new twink or the heavy muscle bear.

Wherever we are on that spectrum, we deserve to be loved and treated well and surrounded by people who genuinely care for us and not just placing our worth on our bodies.

And again, while it's uncomfortable to address those things, we really need to do that so that we can shed those old limiting beliefs that are holding us back. So that way, we can move forward to achieving a state of harmony in a community that genuinely accepts us.

Connect with Matthew (1:00:19)

Rob Loveless

Well, Matthew, thank you again for joining us today. I think this was a really super important conversation. I'm really glad we had that. You know, can you tell all the listeners where to find you, your Instagram, plug all the things?

Matthew Simko

Yeah, you can find me on Instagram @simkosays. I do fit checks all the time. I always put the brand and the size of what I'm wearing. It's really helpful if people want to buy me gifts too. They know exactly the size that I am and exactly the brands I like.

But you know, we're there to spread a lot of positivity and just show that, you know, fat guys can look good too. And I think I'm doing it. So, thanks for having me here.

Rob Loveless

Of course, yeah. And I love the fit checks because, I mean, it gives me inspiration that I need to up my wardrobe because I feel I just wear sweatpants and the same t-shirt all the time. So, I need to start getting out and putting on some real pants and some nicer shirts.

Matthew Simko

I'm happy to encourage that aspect of your life, so.

Rob Loveless

Perfect. Are you adding personal stylist to your resume? Can people reach out to you for that too?

Matthew Simko

I've done it and it's terrible. So sorry.

Connect with A Jaded Gay (1:01:19)

Rob Loveless

All right, well, just because he's not doing stylist work, don't let that deter you. Still, check out his Instagram.

For the podcast, you know the drill. Reach out to me with any questions or feedback about the episode rob@ajadedgay.com. You can visit the website ajadedgay.com for more information about episodes, guests, resources.

You can follow the podcast on Instagram, TikTok, SoundCloud, and YouTube @ajadedgaypod. You can follow me personally, Rob Loveless, on Instagram @rob_loveless.

Also, if you're feeling generous and want to consider supporting the podcast on Patreon, you can do that for as little as $1 a month @ajadedgaypod.

And remember, every day is all we have, so you got to make your own happiness.

Mmm-bye.