99. Coming Out Later in Life (with Kevin O’ Connor)

Guest Opener (0:00)

Kevin O'Connor

My son and I came home at the same time. And it was his coming out and me identifying that that's what was happening that I thought, hey, this is something I need to do too.

Episode Introduction (0:34)

Rob Loveless

Hello, my LGBTQuties, and welcome back to another episode of A Jaded Gay.

I'm Rob Loveless, and today I am a jaded gay, just because it has been a week. I've been not sleeping well; things have been very stressful. I've just been super busy running around from point A to point B.

And I feel like there's no downtime. Some of it is definitely my fault. Because I've been making myself too busy trying to get certain things done that, you know, aren't necessarily a priority, but I'm rushing to get them done.

So, I'm really hoping to this weekend, just take some downtime to relax, watch some TV, maybe read a little bit. And also, I do have a little house project planned.

So that always is usually pretty relaxing for me unless things go south and I stress out over it. But here's hoping that doesn't happen.

Coming Out Later in Life (1:23)

Rob Loveless

Anyway, from stressing out to coming out. Today, I am very excited to bring a guest on to talk about a very important topic.

Back in October, as you may remember, we talked about the history of coming out, how it started some, tips for coming out.

And in that episode, we covered how for some people, they might feel that it's too late to come out.

You know, today we do see a lot of younger people coming out feeling that they can be their authentic selves, which is great.

But that's not the same path for everyone, especially older LGBTQ+ people who may have grown up in a time when, you know, their sexuality was not accepted.

So, our guest today is coming on to talk about his experiences coming out later in life and some advice around that.

But before we get into it, let's pull our tarot card.

Tarot (2:10)

Rob Loveless

So today, we drew The Moon in reverse. Now as you may remember, Major Arcana cards signify something big in our lives. So, this is more than just the little day-to-day stuff.

And The Moon is full of feminine energy, so this card is very nurturing and encouraging us to meditate and reflect. It's number 18 in the Major Arcana, so with double digits, we add them together.

And in numerology nine is symbolic of being near completion of a cycle, but we still have to push a little harder to cross the finish line.

And from the lens of numerology, this card is also connected to The Hermit, which is number nine in the Major Arcana. And The Hermit signifies that we're alone, but it can go one of two ways.

Either being alone is bringing us solitude, and it's healthy space needed for us. Or on the flip side, we're spending too much time alone and isolating ourselves from others.

Now The Moon is tricky because while it is nurturing, it can also sometimes prevent us from seeing situations clearly.

Think of it this way, the sun comes out during the daytime, it shines its light on situations, but the moon comes out at night and it doesn't shine as brightly.

So, because of that, it may cause illusions and cause us to see our feelings reflected in a situation as opposed to seeing the truth in the situation.

And obviously, our feelings and emotions are valid, but they're not always logical.

So, while we want to feel the feelings and emotions, we do want to rely on our logic to make sound decisions and see how we're showing up in a certain situation.

So, when we draw The Moon in reverse, it's saying that we might be hesitant to look inwards, and that we need to reflect on ourselves or a situation we may be in.

And it's also reminding us that we need to meditate and accept our truths, and trust in our intuition to guide us on our path forward so that we can achieve what we're looking to out of life.

Guest Introduction (3:56)

Rob Loveless

So, with that in mind, let's bring in today's guest.

He is an author, public speaker, and former teacher who learned how to embrace his sexuality and live authentically as a gay man at 55. Please welcome Kevin O'Connor.

Hi, Kevin. How are you today?

Kevin O'Connor

Hi, I'm wonderful. Good to hear from you from Philadelphia. It's good to be in the same time zone that together with with you. So, I'm looking forward to our conversation.

Rob Loveless

Thank you for joining. I think this is a really important conversation to have. So, I'm glad you're here today.

Before we get too much into it, though, can you tell us a little bit about yourself, your career, how you identify, pronouns, all that fun stuff?

Kevin O'Connor

Sure, sure. I identify as cisgender male and orientation-wise, I identify as gay. I came to grips for lack of a better word. I came out officially probably to myself and to others when I was 55.

So, I'm 74, I'll be 74 next week, so I'm in terms of but I knew and I write about that in other places. I I didn't know what to call it at age 12 or 13 in 1960, or thereabouts.

But I knew there was something that separated me from my friends and my brothers and something that was a little different. I didn't know what to call it.

So, so I identify now as as a gay father, a gay grandfather, gay educator. But I could take the gay part out and just say those words without, but I think now that I'm I feel so much more authentic now than I used to.

So much more who I am and have worked through that process. But I, as I say, a book I was talking about before that I was part of was called, it's called Journey Out.

It was edited by a guy named Gene Probasco. And it's this is where I first started to explore this shortly after I came out, it's called Memoirs of Men Coming to Grips with Their Orientation.

So, it's really a group of 20 men who each wrote their own section about what it was like to come out of a marriage to journey out of a marriage.

And that's where I first started to identify and talk to myself initially, and I'm do some writing about who it who is it I who is it I am. Is that a sentence?

And, and then at the same time that I was coming out, or making that decision at age in my early 50s, I had, my son was coming out as well.

So sometimes when I'm making a presentation, or when I was working in the school system with LGBT youth, I would just say I came out this, my son and I came out at the same time.

And it was his coming out and me identifying that that's what was happening, that I thought, hey, this is something I need to do too. This is, I've lived I've lived in authentically for this many years.

And but now with a son that's coming out, I need I wanted to do it as well. And not to say that we held hands and did this together. We didn't at all.

But it was, he influenced me a lot and in and being able to talk to me about it. And then even though then I wasn't able to tell him who I, what I was it took took a little while longer for me to do that.

But I was operating at that point as the as the father, as the dad, knowing full well what was happening to gay kids. And at that point, and still is, unfortunately. I wanted to help him as much as I could.

So that is a little bit about myself to start us off and how I came out. And next year, I'll celebrate 20 years of being official if there's that word.

So that and life has certainly certainly changed for me in many, many ways in those 20 years.

Rob Loveless

Well, glad to hear that you feel more empowered and living more authentically. And also, happy early birthday.

Kevin O'Connor

Yeah. Next, next Saturday, I'll be 74 Yeah. So, I guess another identity is senior gay. I'm a senior gay.

Rob Loveless

Awesome. Well, I do like to ask all my guests, today, are you a jaded or non-jaded gay, and why?

Kevin O'Connor

I'm more the non-jaded. I'm not. I do have my days when I get a little jaded. But I'm a quick recoverer. And for all of my life, I've been a few downs, few downturns.

But for the most part, I've been pretty, don't let myself get wrapped up too much in the jadedness. Although I know it's there, and I can identify it and I can recognize it, and even appreciate it at times.

But I consider myself more non-jaded, I think.

Rob Loveless

Good. Always glad to hear that. It's important to have that resiliency to push back the jadedness for too long.

Kevin O'Connor

Yeah, yeah. Maybe that's testimony to my age? I don't know. So, I don't know.

A Lack of LGBTQ+ Visibility (9:00)

Rob Loveless

Well, getting into the episode, can you tell us a little bit about your experiences growing up and what kind of LGBTQ+ visibility you saw, if any?

Kevin O'Connor

Yeah, I was born in 1950. And I was, part of the premise of the book I wrote Two Floors Above Grief is my experiences as being the child of the son and the nephew of two funeral directors and we, I live in an apartment above the funeral home with my two brothers and my parents and the apartment.

Below us was my aunt and uncle and their three daughters. So, we lived together in this big old Victorian magical house. I called it magical. And it's a really nice environment.

In in terms of the visibility at the time of of gay, I mean, that wasn't even a word we used. That wasn't. If I recall correctly, people didn't talk about gay people.

It was, they had other names for them, which I've probably erased from my head a little bit.

But all that being said, and when people started talking about people that were either with other women or with other men, and I started to feel this attraction, around 10, or 11, or 12, I thought, gee, they're talking about me.

But I had no place to go with it. So, I was very secretive about what I would do. To learn more about it, I wanted to learn what it was.

And I guess one of the things I was first attracted to, was at the local magazine store in the town. And one of the magazine stores was at the base level of the magazine rack, excuse me, was the, was all the muscle boy magazines, or the men's magazines.

And amidst a hundreds of other magazines. If I remember correctly, they were there were right there. They weren't, like buried in anything. So, it was easy to pick up and look.

And as a 12, 13, 14-year-old, I, you know, I'd be looking at these glancing and going paging through and thinking, oh, who's, is anybody overlooking over my shoulder? Or it was always aware that I shouldn't be looking at these or something, but at the same time, very enticing.

And my father, my parents, being business owners in the town, and in a smaller type town, people think oh well, what my thinking was, what if somebody sees me looking at this magazine?

I think I heard on one of your podcasts so recently about you read this similar situation, with the inclinations with these magazines that this this particular speaker, bought bought it, and took it home.

I would have never done that. I would have never, never done that. And the other thing that I realized I was attracted to; I had a paper route.

And in the summertime, when I rode my bike or walked or whatever I did. And there was a number of cars that went by where the men were, were not wearing shirts. And I was drawn to that.

And in fact, having walking the same route every day, about the same time, I could sometimes predict, you know, when that car was going to when that car, that car was going to come.

So, I felt that attraction and didn't know what to do with it at all. So, and then I just what I did is I pretty much buried that. And but I when I would go to a bookstore, especially if I got a chance to go, and we lived about 30 miles outside outside of Chicago, if I went in.

I remember one time finding a book at a bookstore and reading the, I don't remember the book, but it was a way for me to learn more about homosexuals.

And they didn't probably use the word gay in that book either. But I remember reading it on the way home, and then just leaving it on the train. Because I thought I can't, I can't take this book home.

But from that, when, I would go to bookstores other occasions, especially by myself, I might park myself on those shelves to read.

And that was how I did some of the some of the learning I was doing to try to process this part of me that didn't know what to call myself.

So that's how I that's how I learned in that time period of the late 50s, early 60s. And but proceeded in a life where I was going to a Catholic high school, co-ed.

But it wasn't anything that was talked about. Nothing was ever mentioned. It was probably, I shouldn't say nothing was ever mentioned.

There, there were things where we would our group of people would mock other guys that we thought might be looking at those same magazines that I was looking at, you know.

And, and so that I would just internalize that even further that, hey, we're mocking this guy, this, this friend of ours, this other guy in our group who, who is reported to be looking at the same magazines that I am, and these other guys are really giving it to him, mostly behind his back.

But that just caused me to further retreat, and further to take that and I didn't want to risk losing the friendship of my peers. So, I thought I just better keep this quiet. I just better not even tell them that I liked those magazines too.

So, the I think your question had to do with visibility. So that was part of my visibility. But in terms of in our high school settings or even at the public high schools or the community I hung out with, it was nothing like it is today.

There was nothing. In fact, I I'm going back to that hometown in June. It's they're having their second annual Pride festival.

So, you talking second annual and we talk about other ones go back to Stonewall. As many years as that's been going on, and that, so I'll be going back for that.

To have the second annual sort of sort of paints a picture of how long it's taken that particular area to, to acknowledge homosexuals and the word and that's where we don't use much anymore either.

But to, to acknowledge that. So that's the kind of environment I was in and grew up in.

Not only being Catholic, but being in a in a city in a town, where, to the best of my knowledge, there there wasn't much awareness on my part, other than somebody making a comment about somebody they thought might appear feminine or things like that, and then put the put a homosexual label on him for that.

So that was, that was the extent of my visibility as I was growing up in my young teen years.

Rob Loveless

How did that lack of visibility impact you emotionally?

Kevin O'Connor

Well, it made me feel hidden. Although I was, I made me feel hidden in that regard. But it didn't stop me from seeking social, being social, being taking roles at school being getting into different leadership positions, trying out, and being on sports teams occasionally.

Even though I didn't I never felt confident in that area. But I have to say that there was always I when people asked me about this, or when I'm then working with high school kids about why did you wait, so what was it like to be gay when you were a teen?

And how come you didn't come out until you're in your 50s? And I said, well, I always point to my belly. I said, well, my day being gay was sort of in the pit.

And it was very hidden and very protected, self-protected. And for my part, I, I went and hung out with the guys and had girlfriends and went to dances and did all that kind of heterosexual mixing in high school and into college and beyond.

So, I just I just I found a spot to put my gayness but never knew when or if, or if it was ever going to come out. It was there, though. And I just so you.

So emotionally, I was sort of, I knew there was a part of me that couldn't get out. And not really knowing having the vocabulary or the knowledge to know what to do with it.

I thought, hey, I'm just going to portray myself as this person who's been pretty successful as a teen and being pretty accepted. As a teen and a college student.

I didn't, I didn't feel the need, if you want to call it the need, to come out at that time.

Discovering LGBTQ+ Identity (17:57)

Rob Loveless

Going into adulthood, you had talked about how you had a spot for your gayness to go, so to speak, and that you kind of quote-unquote I guess managed it to kind of keep it at bay.

What were those? How, how did you do that?

Kevin O'Connor

Well, it was always challenging even as a freshman in college. As a freshman in college, I had a roommate, who we became intimately involved towards the latter part of our freshman year.

And we didn't, he's he's since passed, but wished I could talk to him. But I don't think we really knew what to do with it. We were signed up to be roommates, our second year, our sophomore year.

And I remember being so afraid that behind his back, I called the the dorm office and asked not to be put in the room with him. That I felt I wanted to get a different room.

He came to school that beginning day of fresh of sophomore year expecting to walk into a room it was really not that one of my more proud moments. But he came in expecting to be in a room with me. And then I he was placed in a different room.

And then I was in the room. Of course, then when he came and talked to me, I said I was just too afraid. I couldn't I couldn't. I really figured I figured out I think I knew what would have happened if we'd been in that room together.

And I just I the only way to figure at that time myself to get out of it was just to work with the housing office and eliminate that that factor. On the other hand, we'd stayed friends, we pledged a fraternity together, we had the same social circle.

And probably there may have been one or two times in the year that follow that where we were we were together again in an intimate fashion but for the most part, we both presented ourselves as as not as non-gay as straight as straight guy in our in our environment, so.

But for me, I think tying back to your question for me, I remember coming home that summer after that freshman year, coming home and wondering what to do with this, what do I, you know, when the parents say, Well, how? How was your friend? And how was your roommate?

And I couldn't tell anybody. And I see that thread running through a lot of stories of people that are gay or coming out or in adolescence or at any time in their life. Who do you tell? Who do you talk to?

As much as I trusted my father and wanted to share I just couldn't, and I. So, I kept that I just kept those secrets in there, and kept them for a long time and proceeded then into relationships with women, and got married once.

Got married a second time. Had kids. And partly part of what that whole thing was about was, I always wanted to be a father. And at that point, in fifth, six, late '60s, '70s, I didn't see any other way to be a dad, than to stay to say or identify now as heterosexual.

So, I could meet somebody who I would want to share that experience with. And so, I, in my first marriage, I was able to talk to that to her about this. And within three or four years, we decided to divorce for a number of reasons.

She and I, she and I were just texting a few minutes ago. She and I are are gratefully very good friends. But we divorced and what did I do? I just started dating again and meeting people. And within a year, two years of the divorce, I was married and had a baby.

So, or three years, maybe, but in any case. And then lived in that marriage for 24 years, two kids. And so, it was always, it was always as I look back at it now, I thought, how did you how did you do this for them? How did you live that lie for that many years?

How did I get to be as advanced in my career as I was? I was I was an educator. Educators didn't come out in those days. I mean, and I lived in San Francisco at the time of Harvey Milk.

So, I left San Francisco in '78, just a few months before he was murdered. So, I was in that atmosphere and living in the Bay Area as a young married man with a big circle of friends.

But living in this environment, where being gay was pretty accepted. As a social group, we would go to Castro Street, and we would participate in activities there.

And we would kid about the the gays and things like that. And then in my own mind, though, I was thinking, hey, that's me.

So, following Harvey Milk and the whole referendum that was going on about Anita Bryan at the time, about gay, they didn't call them gay teachers, they called them homosexual teachers, and what damage they were doing.

And here I was teaching myself. I thought, how am I going to keep this job? How am I going to keep on in this career? And I, I didn't have the where with all the whatever it would have taken me to do that at the time. I wanted to be a dad.

And I thought that the only way to be a dad is to, to keep in a heterosexual relationship. And certainly, I love both of my wives.

And that was another thing that was banging against each other's hands was being in an intimate, heterosexual marital relationship, while at the same time having this attraction to men not acting on it, didn't act on it for many, many years, but knowing that it was there.

And then being in social circles, where it was this was couples and all the things suburban couples do, and doing those kinds of things. And so, but still that that little place in my stomach was telling me hey whatever you want to call it, Kevin, you're not fully you're not fully a heterosexual married man.

You've got this other element to yourself, which will it ever come out? So that's how I lived for a good. I was like I said, I'm married to two women over a period of 28 years, 29 years.

But that was very buried and I got to a point where that was that being buried was just a part of me. And maybe that's why I had colitis sometimes.

Maybe that's why I got nervous about things that maybe other people wouldn't get nervous about and probably affected me in a physiological way too.

Rob Loveless

From a young age, you definitely recognized the attraction to men and that there was something different there.

But like you said, I believe it's around 29 years of going through this, repressing this part of you.

So, do you remember the moment where you began accepting your your sexuality and your authentic self and exploring what it might mean to come out?

Kevin O'Connor

I guess I got clues along the way that it was that it was going to be more accepting. Not that I, I guess one of my first clues was even as a 29-year-old when I was coming out, when I was dealing with the breakup of the first marriage, and I was able at that time to talk to my dad. I had been going to some counseling and counseling sessions.

And heading, having spoken to my, my first wife about this attraction to men, and she's the one that said, well, why don't we Why don't we go talk to somebody? Why don't we get some help? So that led me into counseling, which led me into the counselor saying, why don't you? Who can you talk to about this?

I thought, well, maybe I can talk to my dad. So, I did at age 29. And just started to bring it up, and told him about the experience that I had had in college 10 years prior.

And he knew he knew the guy that I was talking about. And he started to just talk about he knew people in his life. And it wasn't he didn't think it was that unusual.

And he used that the which I've heard many times the spectrum your your Are you a one gay or a 10 gay? Or where do you fit on the homo/heterosexual spectrum?

And he said we're all we're all different points along that. And I think maybe his take at the time was, sometimes we're at different spots in our life there. So, we had this discussion.

We never talked about it again. I ended the marriage ended. And like I said, a few years later, I was married again. But we didn't go back to that discussion at all with him.

He died in three or four years later. So, I guess, but having that discussion with him, you asked about my first sign. That was the first thing that I thought, well, there are people to talk to about this.

And not only my counselor, but if my father is okay with this and then even with my first wife, knowing that she's the one that said, let's let's, why don't you go to some counseling, and then being able to tell her brother and sister-in-law about it, and unpack it with them a little bit?

So, and those audiences weren't audiences for like, they weren't a push away Audience. They weren't. They were more okay; this is part of your story. And rather than rather than so I got that to that point when I was 29, or 30, 29. Yeah.

And what did I do? I just thought, okay, I got, I'm here. But I am going to, I'm going to find somebody else to pair up with and spend another 24 years 25 years in a marriage that was not easy. It was not difficult, probably because we were we probably weren't ready to get married.

Had a kid or a child right away. And then and then me having this this area in my abdomen that was always urge inching on wanting to come out. So so that so I came across the increments, so my dad being one of them.

And then another stepping stone was just my son, my son was 16, 17. And just the way he was the kinds of things he was, I was discovering on his computer and the things that I would overhear him talking and more.

So, the things that I saw, hidden in his room, and I thought, there's something going on here. And it was he was me.

He was me from a few years before and I, part of me didn't want him to have to go through everything I had done.

So, I I found a way to have that conversation with him and just having that conversation even though it was very difficult. And he was resistant to that idea. The card was on the table.

And that's when I started to I, I was then back in counseling, I think then, and my wife would come in and out of counseling with me. And at that point, I thought this is this is it I've got I've got to do this and, and probably true for most of us whenever whenever we decide to come out um, you reach a point where has to happen, I'm willing to take the risk, I'm willing to. At that point it was, I had a few years left in my career as a principal.

My kids were out of high school of college age. My second wife knew by this point because I was, she asked me and I told her, but then I just said, I can't, I can't live, I can't live this way anymore. And so that's when I decided to.

And I by that time, I had developed a calm a camaraderie of other friends, men that have friends I knew that had revealed to me they were going through a similar situation, I did some searching. I don't think we had online 30 years ago.

But I found ways to find other people that were in marriages that were trying to deal with that and what do you do? And then, lo and behold, I met a couple of college friends that told me, that's what they were experiencing.

And they were a big, big, big help, to help me come to come to this. And then this helped me through the process. So that's, that's how I did it. At age 50, 53, 54, 55.

Coming Out (31:13)

Rob Loveless

So, at this time, were you identifying as gay and coming out to people as gay?

Or were you just kind of, you know, acknowledging that you had attractions to other men without calling it gay?

Kevin O'Connor

Good question. I first started getting my years mixed up. Okay. 2004 2005. At that in the marriage, second marriage was breaking up.

And so, when I went and talked to my mom, just to let her know that I was, my wife and I were going to get divorced. And so, I, I went over and talked to her about it at her at her her condo. We talked and I said, Mom, I've got one more thing to tell you.

And she said, let me get a beer. I said, okay, we were watching a Cubs game. Anyway, she said, okay, let me get me. Let's get a beer. I said, okay, what is it? You want to tell me? Well, I said, in addition to getting divorced, I, I'm gay. And she took a breath.

And she said, hey, does this have anything to do with that friend you had in first grade? So, I'm still in touch with that friend in first grade. And I'm not sure if it was big. And I I'm not sure it's because I had been talking to her at the time that I had reacquainted myself with him.

But he is I unpacked his story; he came out when he was 19. And he was another factor in my coming out. He was also another person that I was able to confide in and have long phone calls with and helped me come out and make these decision over a couple-year period.

So, with my mom, I had two years left in my contract as a school principal. And she says, well, what are we going to do? What are you going to do now?

And I said, she says it's her advice at the time was she says, you know, I think it's, it's going to be the family's going to have to get used to the idea of divorce. Not that we were strangers to divorce, but just the idea that you're getting divorced.

And I wasn't I didn't view myself as a as a what I would call a soapbox gay get up on a platform and say, I'm gay. I'm out. I'm this and that. I didn't fashion myself as that and and with two years to go in my principal job. I didn't.

There was a part of me that said, okay, I'm gonna do this and just lay it all out there for everybody. But through through talking to my mom. She said, why don't we just take take things a step at a time?

Let's get through the divorce part let's and is if she was doing it with me. But go through the divorce process, and then we'll figure out and what how are you going to tell your brothers.

I said, well, then we sort of conceived this plan that I would wait until the divorce was final, and then I would have the conversation with my brothers. But um, so mum was a confidant.

And as I thought, I thought I didn't think she was telling anybody but she was in the background. I've come come to find out later. But but those for those last two years of that phase of my educational career, I told one person at school who I trusted and she was a great help to me.

And in terms of discerning what I do about this, and how do I handle it in that kind of a professional community setting, and again, she helped me stay for lack of a better word hidden during that time.

So, I had I did I found support I built in support My goal was to come out, I didn't know where I was going. I just knew that in addition to divorcing, that I was going to be coming out as well.

And not didn't know how I was going to announce that or anything like that. So, the summer of oh, five I, after I had these discussions with my mom, I decided to move to the basement of our house, marital house, because it just wasn't working out.

I, I had a call from a friend, and who had gone through the same situation, and said that he, he knew of a friend, another friend of his, that had been in the same situation.

And he thought that I might benefit from getting talking to that person. And I did. Long story short, that person ended up being my husband. So, I didn't in my coming out process.

I know a lot of you read the book Journey Out or anything, other articles where people are coming out of relationships, not probing and figuring out what are the social venues.

How am I going to meet somebody? How am I going to do that? I didn't do that. I met this man. While I was still living in the basement of my house, even before I moved out to get my own apartment.

And we developed, we were living in different areas of the country, but we talked all the time. And he too, had gone through this situation of being a datum in a marriage that wasn't working, and, and and he had entered into a period of his life where he was, what do I do?

How do I how do I navigate relationships? And when we met, we knew pretty much right away that that we were meant for each other.

And it's it's this July, we will spend our 19th year together 19 years, so that that journey was a little, I don't know if it's different, like it's mine, or whatever you want to call it.

But I didn't have the experience of a bar scene or trying to get on social media or that kind of thing to meet somebody, I met somebody and, and that that that was sort of something you don't always write in the book or you don't always picture it.

So, it was working for me in it is working still very beautifully. So but it was just the idea of having these connections and opening myself up to people one at a time that led me to Leon, but opening myself up to my college friend opening myself up to my first-grade friend, who I knew from first grade up through eighth grade and we went to different high schools but then we reconnected in adult life and he was just a wonderful support for me to go into go through this process.

So, I've been fortunate in in by some maybe it's in my tarot cards, I don't know, but fortunate in in finding people that were able to guide and guide me along the way and to, to meet people. So, I feel really blessed with that and very fortunate in that.

Rob Loveless

And how did opening up to others about your identity, especially you know, the conversation with your mom, since it sounds like that's the first person you kind of officially came out to?

How did you feel when he started opening up and having those conversations?

Kevin O'Connor

It was just like a lifting. It was, I mean, sometimes they talk about gay people being light in their loafers. But that was some of my parents' generation would say that oh, he's light in his loafers.

But it's just, each person I was able to talk to just gave me further credence, further authenticity, further okayness, further acceptance, I think, too. I mean, part of what part of what I do, but knowing full well that I I did cause some hurt in people's lives.

By my being getting married, maybe staying in a marriage, living this secret that that was hurtful to other people. But it's taught me but each time I told somebody, each time I talked to somebody, I figured, hey, I'm not the only one.

There are people out there that are willing. that will listen to to me. I don't recall anybody, even now, when I'm talking to people about it directly of saying, oh, that's crazy.

Why would, why would you ever think that? And the and the fear I had about coming out to my cousins and my family and everything, it just, and I didn't have any kind of formal process. At that point, I just let the word spread on its own.

And each time we came into a social situation, it's certainly. And as Leon started to come to more and more events, it was a suit. This I felt, hey, this is just who Kevin is.

No one has come to me to confront me about it. Although who knows what people talk about behind my back, and what what their perceptions were. But my perception is that it's, it's been very accepting.

And they been looking at me as the, you know, the total Kevin, as opposed to... And I have the same thing with the people I used to work with when I was in the school for 18 years as a principal, and had only spoken to one person, and then didn't really start telling people about who I was until a couple of, maybe a year or two after I retired in 2017.

But now that Leon comes to those events, when we have social events, so we do things together. So, it's just been a very, so each time I tell somebody each time now when I tell somebody each time, if I'm talking to a group of students about their coming out process, it just makes me feel more complete more whole.

Can we overuse the word authentic? I don't know. But it's just it's just part of who I was, I am. Just, I'm, like I said earlier, I'm a dad, I'm, I'm a dad, I'm a grandfather, I'm a teacher, I'm a principal, I'm a writer. I'm gay.

It doesn't it, the identities can coincide or not. And I just present myself out in the community as just who I am. And if it happens to come up in conversation. Yeah, but I don't.

I don't go to Starbucks and say, yeah, I'm a gay dad. Or can you fix me a gay, gay coffee or anything? Because I only only drink gay coffee. I know I'm being silly here. But it's just answering your question.

I just, there's no regrets. I just feel about coming out. Do I wish, do I think sometimes what would have been like if I had come out earlier? I do. I ask that question.

But then maybe I wouldn't have been a father. Maybe I wouldn't have, but then when I look at the AIDS quilt and when I see the AIDS quilt, and notice that most of the birth dates of those people are anywhere from the mid-1940s and later, I think if I had come out earlier, what would that have meant for my life?

Was was I was I meant to, to come out when I did so that I could be put in a position of working in a high school setting, school setting for the last 10 years of my career working with LGBT youth?

Maybe that maybe that's why, maybe that's why some somebody up there, said, let's let's wait for a while before you come out. So, I don't know, I don't have an answer to that.

Rob Loveless

Circling back to your role as a father, when you, you know, when you had that conversation with your son, recognizing that there was some similarities in terms of, you know, recognizing sexuality and all that.

What, what did you feel, you know, what inspired you or motivated you to, you know, come out for, I guess, maybe if this makes sense to come out for your son or to come out as a role model or example for him what what feelings are going through your head for that?

Kevin O'Connor

The idea of a role model wouldn't have worked at the time. I mean, we had that what I think is pretty typical. Father-son parental angst and you know, trying to find each other's way and me being a dad and he being a son. I think what that's, that's not easy for a lot of families.

So, for me to have that conversation with him, I can picture the conversation. I can picture where I was sitting with him. But I really don't, can't recall all the words or the context, but it really wasn't for me to, hey, I'm gonna, I'm gonna come into your life and be a role model.

Now, I think one of the things that I was conceptually, not specifically, but what I was hearing was, yeah, this was something he was struggling with.

This was something he didn't know what to do about or was finding ways, whether it was through peers or alcohol or drugs or whatever he was choosing to do with his decision-making, he was going that way. And I was. But it was at that point, though, that I thought, for me, this has gone on too long.

For me, I can't, I can't watch my son or observe my son going through this, and pretend and keep that part of myself buried in my abdomen, in my, the pit of my stomach. I've got to work on some way for me to understand not only him but understand myself too.

So, and again, it wasn't to be a role model. It was just, he did me a favor. But a service in his in him is, as well as he did or did not hide the evidence in the house about his own struggles.

Me observing that as a father, and then me thinking and even talking to his mom about it. I thought we have to talk to him. Now this was, I guess, the part of that time, that would be early, late 1990s, early 2000s.

AIDS was, you know, it's always there. HIV is always there. AIDS is there. Yeah, there's that sense of a dad's protection. If I have this conversation with you, not stumbling, and if I have this, if I stumble through this conversation with you, maybe that'll that'll help you.

So, but having the conversation, realizing what was going on in my own house, made me think this is this is what I have to be really more upfront with, in my own relationship with his mom, with my own family, with the things I've had, every once in a while I would think about doing for so many years of my life, whether it would be personally or professionally, but it was it was that that factor that really, really helped.

So, I think that answers your question. I'm not sure.

Rob Loveless

Definitely, definitely. And I know you touched upon this earlier, but I wanted to kind of go back into this a little bit deeper.

In what ways has your coming out experiences been different from those who came out earlier in life, whether that be good, bad, or otherwise?

Kevin O'Connor

I sometimes wish we would just get rid of this word coming out, coming out process, because I wrote, when I wrote my section for the book, not The Two Floors Above Grief book but The Journey Out book, I talk about Barney Frank, you know, the Congressman Barney Frank.

And he has a book out. He made a comment and Mitchell Gold's book 40 Stories Revealing the Personal Social and Religious Pain and Trauma of Growing Up Gay in America.

And when Barney Frank wrote his account, and he was still a congressman at the time, he said, every everyone comes out. It's called talking.

And he goes on to explain, and I put in the chapter that we all come out in different aspects of our life. I came out as, I didn't know what it was to be a dad. I came out as a dad. I struggled through that.

I came out as a baby, I came out as a first-grade student, I came out all the way through each of our markers in life. We're coming out. And yet we make this deal of sexuality.

If there was just a way to people, for people to be who they were from the time they were born, and and just have that accepted and I know I'm talking into a dream world, especially in light of today's politics.

But just if there wasn't that, if we didn't have to come out, if we just who we were from the very get-go, it wouldn't be a factor. So, I think every every coming out experience is it's.

Coming out it's not a prescriptive thing, even as you talked in your podcasts out there about the concepts of grief, there is no prescription for that there is no. It's everything is individual.

Everything is is how that individual comprehends and acts and does, and I think the coming out process for any one of us is that we have there's each of us has our own variables, our own factors, our own timings, whether the timing's physical or emotional or any other factor.

For me, and I don't sometimes I will ask that question myself. How was my coming out different than other people? Well, I could go through how I was 54 instead of 16. I was married instead of single.

I was a father and instead of not a father. I was, I was a longtime career person, as opposed to just starting my career. All those kinds of differences, but that's what makes my coming out individual.

So, I don't like to get caught up in what makes my thing different. I think more what I talk think about is what makes what what makes, I'll use the present tense because I think we're coming out all the time.

What makes my coming out mine, what makes it individual, what makes it and not so much different than anybody else's, but just what makes it mine? What makes my approach to, you know?

I can I can walk into our gay neighborhood down the street here. And I'll approach it from my perspective, knowing full well that the other 100 people that might be around me, are approaching it from a far different way in terms of where they're at in their life.

And there's, there's not a, I haven't found, I've written enough, a number of a number of gay books, gay books, you know, books, either fiction or nonfiction. There's just no one way to do this.

There's no one way that I guess the factor for me, and what I tried to when I was counseling kids and working with them on what they were going to do is this, there are just find people that will help you through it.

Find people that you can talk to. But I'm gonna get kicked out of my house. Okay, we'll find a, we don't want that to happen and I'm not going to force you into coming out. It's still your decision.

But let's just know that there's these resources that you can go to. There's these places you can go. Do I have to tell my mom or dad?

As much as, as a parent, I would like to think, yeah, they're going to talk to me. But when there's a threat there in a particular household, I would say no, just find the resources and take, just take the steps you need to take. I know, I think I'm going way into a different direction here.

But I think the idea back to your question, I just I just treat my coming out as my coming out. And I love to hear stories of other people and enjoy the stories of all the different processes.

And I think when when you're with a group of other gay men or gay women, oftentimes they'll just go, "Hey, tell me about your coming out. Tell me what happened with you."

And, and there's, we all have our story. But there's very few stories that you can put in the same box. It's all individual boxes.

Rob Loveless

And are there any misconceptions or stereotypes about coming out later in life that you've encountered? And how did you address them?

Kevin O'Connor

Well, the first thing that came to mind, I'm sure there's others, that first thing comes to mind is in my work in the school system. I worked in the Department of Diversity, the last 10 years of my career in Broward schools.

And that put me in a position of working not only with parents of gay children but also gay children, gay adolescents who are coming out. And so, when I give presentations about this or talks, they'd say they I think I might have said this before, they would say why'd you wait so long?

How come it took you so long? Why did you do all this other stuff? And if you waited that long, why shouldn't we?

You know, and so to try, and then to paint the picture a little bit, teach, given a little bit of a history lesson. Certainly, the situation for kids, adolescents, nowadays is much different than it was when I.

And so, part of what I would do in those talks is is say, hey, here's what it was like in 1950s and 1960s. And tell talk a little bit about what you and I talked about earlier in this in this podcast. And the situation is there.

And it just wasn't a place where there wasn't a welcoming place. There wasn't an organization called Welcoming Schools. If you're familiar with that group, there wasn't a group called welcoming.

And that's I will be I would be making these presentations during Welcoming Schools’ presentations. And I would say there wasn't a there wasn't this kind of outlet.

And through people, people that came out in the 50s, 60s, 70s, 80s, we eventually got to a point where we could create places like welcoming schools or other things that would happen in PFLAG or we could create gay-straight alliances and GSAs, and things.

Not we but I mean, collectively that that all evolve. So, I think part of what happened in those presentations was telling kids that this is how it all evolved. This is this is why you're here.

This is why you're in this and this is why I didn't come out until I was 55 and try to explain um, to kids who had haven't been married, or had maybe even had that haven't had that kind of a relationship, what is it like to be in that kind of relationship, and then decide that you're not going to go?

You're not going to stay in that relationship? What is what kind of pain and grief and stress is that cause? So, it's it's, it's perceptions, conceptions. And when I'm as a 55, 60, now 75-year-old almost, talking to teens, it's, it's a little bit, it's a, it's keeping aware of history and things too.

So, I think that's part of the part of what I do. I haven't been, since I've been out of the school system, I haven't had as many opportunities to to be with youth talk about this.

But that was my experiences for eight to 10 years when I was working in the school system.

And so glad, boy, so happy that I can find that job and find that position, thanks to so many people who would have ever thought that the kid born in 1950, who struggle with being gay in the 60s, went through two marriages, and had kids knowing that there was this gay part of him, I never conceived or thought that I would be have the opportunity to talk to kids, and talk to them about my own experiences and say,

Here's let's just try to figure out what you can do with your life. It was it's, I treat that as a gift, I treat that as a gift not only for myself, selfishly, but being able to have lived this long to be able to do that.

And just being grateful for all the people that were able to not only the people, but the situations that that steered me this way.

So, I think I said earlier, I when I think too much about why I waited till I was 53, 54, 55, I think there's other powers at play here.

There's other there's other positioning, there's other meant to be's, that that made this happen. So that that's that's what happened. So, I so I think I answered I answered your question, I think yeah.

Two Floors Above Grief (57:18)

Rob Loveless

Definitely, definitely. And changing gears a little bit, I did want to talk about this.

You also wrote a memoir titled Two Floors Above Grief: A Memoir of Two Families in the Unique Place We Called Home. Can you tell us more about that?

Kevin O'Connor

I'd be glad to. And I make a couple mentions in there about the gay aspects of my life. The book more or less focuses, I think I talk. This is my second podcast today.

So, if I'm repeating myself, let me know. Because I may have shared this with a prior podcast. The the idea that the Two Floors Above Grief represents the house I grew up in. In that house, that old Victorian house, the funeral home was built in 1880s.

My dad and uncle bought it in 1939. But they put the funeral home on the first floor. And the what used to be resident bedrooms and ballrooms on the second floor for that converted into apartments.

So, the stories in the book are about my growing up, as in a funeral home, and what it was like to be in that atmosphere, that environment.

I don't treat the book, so much sequential thing where I was born in 1950. And this is what happened to be next. And I treat it more thematically.

So, I talk about things that were going on historically, at that time in the 50s, 60s, and 70s. And what was happening not only in our family but what was happening in the nation in the world.

So, we're just gonna get a historical perspective. The book is based a lot on and makes reference to family letters that were written.

I have 700 pages of saved letters that were written back and forth between my parents and other people in the family and myself. And I incorporate the, those letters into the stories I'm telling.

So, when there's a story being told, I will put the I put the actual words of the letter in that my dad or my mom or my aunt or whoever wrote it. And those are typed right into the manuscript.

So, when you're, when a reader is reading that that's the actual person speaking. So, I give I think that gives the book a lot of truthfulness when I was typing those words in.

As I was putting the book together, I thought I would take them right from the letters I'd saved from their actual handwriting or their or their typing, and put them into the keyboard here thinking, those are really their words.

These aren't words I'm making up. These are their words. So, I'm proud of that fact that I was able to pull those letters in and make that part of the story.

One of the things that's happened with the book I designed, when you when I started writing the book and taking writing classes and figuring out how to put a book together, some of the people I worked with said you got to figure out who your audience is going to be.

And I thought, well, initially my audience is going to be my family. But then we as we work more on the writing and editing, and we thought there was a broader audience for this, in terms of people that other people that lived in a house where their family business was, or other people who might have been in environments where they lived together with another family.

We were, there was two separate apartments. But in order for me to get to my apartment, I had to walk through my aunt and uncle's apartment. So, we were always together and doing things.

So, one of the things that happened, when Amazon puts its rankings out, one of the things that occurred a few times, occasions was it was the it was a best seller in the teen and adolescent category.

Rankings in Amazon change real quickly. If, if you happen to change, sell five books in a day, it might change your ranking. So, I don't get too caught up on what the rankings are. But I, one of the some of the times, it was ranking high in teen and adolescents, which was not my intended audience.

But I was thrilled, I was thrilled. And so, I worked in working with another person.

And we talked, we unpack this a little bit and looked at reviews and things, and part of what we thought was attracting people from the teen and 20-year-old type demographic was just the idea that it's a it's an old looking house and a sort of a gothic thing and, and kids all peoples attraction, but sometimes I think youth's attraction to to the idea of death, or the idea of grief or the idea of another place to go.

But then also, what we unpacked was the idea that people currently 30, 40, 50, 60-year-old, 30, 40, 50-year-olds nowadays, maybe not that old. They don't know what letters are. I don't write many letters anymore. I used to write long letters. And I refer to some of them in the book.

My dad wrote long letters. We didn't write letters that we put in the mailbox. We now as you know, everything is done in a different type of communication.

So, part of what we thought the attraction was, it's not only for teens and adults but for some of the older readers that I get involved with, through discussion is the idea, hey, we used to write letters, we used to address an envelope, we used to put it in the mailbox, we used to wait for the mail to come, you know?

I have a son who's 40 years old, who doesn't even look at his mailbox. If I'm going to mail him something in the mail, I have to say, it's coming in the mail. Oh, I haven't checked the mailbox for six or seven days.

That is foreign to me, you know, this from the way I grew up, you check the mail every day. So, the book is more of Two Floors Above Grief, representing the families that lived above the funeral home.

It's not about the clients in the funeral home. It's about what my experiences were along with my brother's and my cousins', about being the children of undertakers and funeral directors.

And how did that influence our lives? And what kind of work did we do in the funeral home? How did we help? How do we how are we part of the family business?

What are the kids at school think about us being the children of undertakers? What happened at a sleepover at my house when kids came over to sleepover? Or where did you put the basketball court in your house? Or how did you have a party in your house when there might be dead people around?

You know, so those kinds of things. So, I talk about those kinds of stories in the book and connected with family stories and the letters and things like that. So that's what the book's about.

And it's, it's getting a lot of it's getting a lot of play with family sites and parenting sites, because it's a lot of that. And I talk about in the book I talk about that story told you earlier about my my discussion with my dad, and coming talking to him about I wasn't really coming out then.

I was saying, hey, I'm having trouble in my marriage. And I think one reason I'm having trouble, it's my first marriage, one reason I'm having trouble is I, Dad I think I'm attracted to other guys.

And not only do I think that I've had experiences. So that discussion that, that's in there in the book, too. So, there's, there's a reference there.

And there's a reference in the the other story I told you about when I came out to my mom that's mentioned in the book too, and how, how she how she handled that and what we did.

So, we tie we tied so it's a it's a set of family stories.

Is It Ever Too Late to Come Out? (1:04:47)

Rob Loveless

Well, coming up towards the end of the episode here, I did want to ask, do you think it's ever too late to come out?

Kevin O'Connor

No, not at all. I mean, I'll say that. I think I ran across somebody the other day on, you know, some sort of social media thing in his 80s or 90s, you know?

And I've read of other people who stayed in a marriage for in this very senior hood.

And when they went, in this case, it was a wife, when the wife died, that's when the man sat down and told his kids and, and his very adult children and presented himself to a gay world, at that stage of his life, and how I remember, I wish I could remember his name and the story more specifically, but he talked about how liberating it was, without any kind of regret of why he did what he did.

It was just that idea of part of it for him, I believe, was the idea of you commit to a marriage relationship, no matter what the factors are. I didn't, I didn't, I drew the line there.

But, in my own life, but I don't think it's ever too, too late Rob to come out. And as I said earlier, I wish we didn't, sometimes there's a part of me that wished it wasn't even necessary.

So, but if, if, if you've been wanting to, if the person's been wanting to do it for this long, and they have the opportunity, and they have a support system in there.

And there's so much support there now, whether it be organizations or atmospheres, or restaurants or clubs, or bars or podcasts, like the like the Jaded Gay, there's so many, there are so many places for people to go to. Much more than I had when I was younger.

So, I think, I think it's never too late. It's never too late to do that. I don't think it's any less scary, probably. But it's never too late.

Rob Loveless

And what words of wisdom can you provide for listeners who might be considering coming out later in life or currently navigating a similar journey?

Kevin O'Connor

Words of wisdom? Well, it'd be trite to go to the Nike slope slogan and say, just do it. Because that really minimizes the whole thing. And it's, it really isn't BFD.

It is a big fucking deal in the way that our culture is structured. But my my, I guess part of what I would tell people now that are concerning is some of the same things I've worked, I worked out with my mom and my friends and my colleagues and find people that you can talk to about it.

Find one confidant that will lead you to another confidant that will lead you to somebody that then maybe you can talk to two or three people at a time, maybe you'll find a group support system.

Maybe that'll lead you to resources that are out there, in literature, or in books, or, again, back to media, that will help.

But I think if if another word of advice is is, if you really think you will want to do it, if you want to come out, don't hold yourself back because I think if you, if you keep yourself from doing it, you pay a price emotionally, physically, it I think, in some ways, it may lessen a person's life.

If you're not being true to yourself, if if you feel you're not being true to yourself if you feel there's a part of if they feel there's a part of themselves, that needs to be expressed and wants to be expressed and they want to be expressed.

There are this go to the resources start, start one step, start a second step. And not that it has to be sequential. It's just start. And so again, that's not to say just do it, but just take a step, find that one person.

Um, there was a time when I was still at the last year of my marriage, second marriage. I was with a college friend, who we had known each other a long time. We were on a bike ride together, we stopped.

And we started talking about this. Turns out we were both having the same kind of thoughts and processes. And, you know, based on the foundation of our strong friendship, and whatever it was that prompted the conversation, we each had one more ally then and you never know.

I think I've looked at the word discovery. Once you start coming out, once I started coming out, I just kept discovering and I still discover all the time.

And even listening to your podcast this week, discovering stuff about things that you've talked about with other guests has been very, very powerful and there's never, for me, there's never been, I know it all. I'm an old man.

I'm 74, I know it all. That doesn't happen. That doesn't happen. So that's just I was gonna say just do it again. No, just if a person is thinking at any time in life and you say we talk, when is it when is it too early? When is it too late? When is it? It's, it's never any of those.

It's when there's a feeling there that a sense, a movement, saying this is something I got to do, then go find the people are going to help you through the process.

And there's, there's a number of people out there, and I've been fortunate enough to find those people along the way. But that's because I was looking. That's because I was looking.

Episode Closing (1:10:27)

Rob Loveless

And connecting it back to the Tarot, The Moon in reverse. It's a Major Arcana card, which is a big deal because coming out is a big deal.

You know, like we've talked about today, it does not look the same for everyone. There's no right or wrong way to do it. It's unique to you, and you're never too old to come out.

So, like this card is telling us really take the time to be with yourself. Reflect inwards if you're having thoughts, feelings, emotions, that might be uncomfortable, take a moment to address them and sit with them.

And really think through it, feel through it, and reflect on yourself and what you want. And as always trust that the universe has your back and that your intuition is going to guide you to make the right decision when the timing is right for you.

There's not going to be, you know, a countdown clock. You will know when the right time for you to come out is. So, listen to your intuition and really trust your gut to guide you through this.

Connect with Kevin (1:11:15)

Rob Loveless

Well, Kevin, thank you again for joining us today. This has been such an important conversation. So, I'm glad we were able to have you on to talk about this.

Can you let listeners know where they can learn more and connect with you?

Kevin O'Connor

Yeah, that'd be great. Thanks for the opportunity to provide the information. I appreciate it. My website is kevinoconnorauthor.com. That unpacks a little bit more about me and also about the book.

Once they go there, there's a place to sign up for some freebies that I send out that they can get and in doing so when they sign up for that they will also be signed up for my newsletter.

I send out a weekly newsletter, about the book. But it also I showcase, there'll be a point in time where I'll showcase that I was on this website with you.

On my website, I showcase all the other podcasts I've been on. So, yours will be there too. So that's one way. So kevinoconnorauthor.com.

If they wanted to get, if they're intrigued with both books, the book called Journey Out: Memoirs of Men Coming to Grips with Their Orientation.

That's he, the editor that has since passed, his name is Gene Probasco. And then the other book, Two Floors Above Grief, the one I wrote, published about 15 months now, both those books are available on Amazon.

So, they can go to Amazon and type in those titles. If they when they go to the website and sign up to get my newsletter, I put those, they put the link to the book in every single newsletter.

If they wanted to get the book too, they can go to any bookstore and order it. This is a self-published book. So self-published books often are not on the shelves of bookstores.

But most most bookstores will order the book if you go in if the person wants to support their local bookstore. And it's but on Amazon, you can get it and the Kindle version, the paperback, or audio or audio version too.

So, all those are available. So, they can learn about the book, they can learn about me. I'm still involved in doing some some work with sexual health and LGBT support. I talk about that in my newsletter.

But if people are looking for assistance or ideas, they can contact me through the website or I'll give you my email too. It's koco7351@gmail.com.

So, they can they can write me there and just put their request in and see if I can be of any help to them. I think being an elder now, you know, I can't I can't undo being an elder.

But I just like to think that I would like to be able to continue in discussions with people of all ages, and not come in as any kind of old export.

Because I'm not because I love the learning that I'm doing from within from everybody. So, I'd love to be involved in dialogue, dialogue and conversation.

Rob Loveless

Awesome. Thank you and I'll be sure to include the links to all that in the episode description.

Connect with A Jaded Gay (1:14:27)

Rob Loveless

And you know the drill. Please reach out to me with any feedback or questions rob@ajadedgay.com. Don't forget to rate, review, and subscribe to the podcast.

Those five-star reviews really help and I greatly appreciate it. You can also learn more about our guests, episode resources, find links to merchandise, all that fun stuff on the website at ajadedgay.com.

You can connect with the podcast on Instagram, TikTok, SoundCloud, and YouTube @ajadedgaypod. You can follow me personally, Rob Loveless, on Instagram @rob_loveless.

Also, if you're feeling generous, consider supporting the podcast on Patreon for as little as $1 a month @ajadedgaypod, or you can do a one-time donation on Buy Me a Coffee which is also @ajadedgaypod.

And remember, every day is all we have, so you got to make your own happiness.

Mmm-bye.