The Jailer’s Reckoning & U.N.T.A.M.E.D. Featuring Kevin Smith and Sherman Wells

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Welcome. I'm Eric Fleming, host of A Moment with Eric Fleming, the podcast of our time.

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The following program is hosted by the NBG podcast network.

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Music.

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Hello, and welcome to another moment with Eric Fleming. I am your host, Eric Fleming.

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And today, I've got two gentlemen on who just happen to be both from the state of Nebraska.

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And one is going to talk about his book that's coming out, and one is going

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to talk about the community work that he's doing in North Omaha, Nebraska.

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And so I hope that y'all will enjoy those conversations and learn something from them.

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I do want to do a little housekeeping. So last week's episode,

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we had a technical glitch.

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And so Aaron Shetterly's interview, the full interview was not heard.

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It was a good bit of it was heard. And then all of a sudden you started hearing

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like some buzzing or whatever.

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So I was able to put the full interview on Patreon.

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And if you want to go to the patron to hear the full interview,

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please do that. It won't cost you anything to do that.

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And if you like what you hear, if you want to support the podcast,

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then you could go ahead and join afterwards.

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It's only a dollar a month to sign up. So I would encourage y'all to do that

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if y'all want to hear the full interview with with Aaron Shitterly,

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because, again, like I said, the book that he wrote, Mourningside,

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it's very powerful book.

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And the part that you missed was just as important as the part that you heard. Let me put it that way.

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So I apologize for that. And I can't promise that it won't happen again,

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but we're going to do our best to make sure that it doesn't.

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But, yeah, so with that, let's go ahead and get this show started.

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And as always, we started with a moment of news with Grace Jean.

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Music.

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Thanks, Eric. The Israeli Defense Forces confirmed they killed Hamas leader

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Yahya Sinwar in a recent Gaza offensive.

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A new Reuters-Ipsos poll shows Vice

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President Kamala Harris leading Donald Trump by

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three percentage points in a tightly contested race for the presidency The Arab-American

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Political Action Committee has chosen not to endorse either Vice President Harris

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or Donald Trump in the upcoming elections Georgia experienced record early voting

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turnout for the upcoming presidential election,

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with over 252,000 voters casting ballots on the first day A Georgia judge has

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temporarily blocked a new rule requiring poll workers to hand-count ballots

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in the upcoming election.

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The U.S. Department of Justice has sued Virginia and Alabama for violating federal

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laws by systemically removing voters within 90 days of an election.

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Nebraska Supreme Court upheld a law allowing felons who have completed their sentences to vote.

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The Roman Catholic Archdiocese of Los Angeles has reached an $880 million settlement,

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with over 1,350 individuals who allege childhood sexual abuse by priests.

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North Carolina gubernatorial candidate Mark Robinson has filed a $50 million

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defamation lawsuit against CNN over a report claiming he made inflammatory comments.

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Civil rights advocates have condemned the violent arrest of Tyrone McAlpin,

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a deaf black man in Phoenix, Arizona, after body camera footage surfaced showing

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him being tasered and punched by police.

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Fairway Independent Mortgage Corporation has been penalized $1.9 million for

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alleged redlining practices in Birmingham, Alabama, and will provide $7 million in loan subsidies.

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The U.S. has warned Israel to improve humanitarian conditions in Gaza within

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a month or risk potential restrictions on military aid.

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And the U.S. Small Business Administration has paused new disaster loan offers

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due to depleted funds from Hurricane Helene. I am Grace Gee,

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and this has been a Moment of News.

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Music.

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All right. Thank you, Grace, for that Moment of News.

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And now it's time for my guest, Kevin B. Smith.

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Kevin B. Smith has been studying and teaching state politics and policy for

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more than 20 years. He has authored or co-authored nine books,

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including Predisposed, Liberals, Conservatives, and the Biology of Political Differences.

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Prior to life and academia, he covered state and local politics as a newspaper reporter.

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Smith is the Leland and Dorothy H.

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Olson Chair of Political Science at the University of Nebraska-Lincoln.

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His new book is The Jailer's Reckoning, How Mass Incarceration is Damaging America.

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Ladies and gentlemen, it is my distinct honor and privilege to have as a guest

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on this podcast, Professor Kevin B. Smith.

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Music.

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All right. Professor Kevin Smith. How are you doing? So you're doing good.

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I am doing good. Thank you. Well, I'm honored to have you on and judging from

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your book, your answers are going to be pretty good.

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I mean, you know, I love somebody that has an encyclopedic vocabulary.

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It's like I was it was I was going back to my days of the SAT preparation.

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I was like going, oh, man, let me look this word up real quick.

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You know, it's one of the occupational hazards of being a professor is we do

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love our words. I have to admit it.

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Yeah, well, it's not anything to feel bad about.

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It's actually an incredible skill to be able to have that mastery of the language.

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So let me start off like I normally do, and I'm going to give you a quote.

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And your quote is african americans

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are more likely to have a prison record than

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be left-handed what does that quote mean to you i think what that quote means

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to me and i you know that is something that is directly taken from my book is

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that we have gone somewhere astray in our society And I mean,

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we can talk about the pros and cons of, you know,

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mass incarceration, and there are some arguments on the pro side.

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But when you have this sort of phenomenon, it's cost being born so exclusively

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by a single demographic.

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That has social, political, and economic consequences that ripple out into the

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entire society, not just within the African-American community.

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Yeah, well, that quote means a lot to me because I'm African-American and I'm

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also left-handed. So when I saw that, I said, oh, yeah.

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So now it makes me seem like I'm either an endangered species or a rare commodity. I don't know.

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But but, yeah, I saw that quote and I said, yeah, I got to ask the professor that one.

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Before we get into the book, though, a couple of things have happened in Nebraska,

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which is where you're based, that I felt that we need to talk about on the show.

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So the first thing was a senator from

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South Carolina named Lindsey Graham shows up at the Nebraska State Senate and

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wants Nebraska to change its electoral college law by saying Nebraska pushing

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for Nebraska winner take all.

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And I'm sure he was thinking, oh, yeah, we can make this happen because the

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state Senate is majority Republican.

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I guess what he didn't anticipate was to have a state senator that understood

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historical significance and and decided to take a stand and say,

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no, I'm not supporting that. And so that effort died.

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Kind of talk about the uniqueness of Nebraska.

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As far as the Electoral College goes. And, you know, since you're a political

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scientist, what do you even think about the Electoral College?

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Well, yeah, there's quite a bit to unpack there. But Nebraska is unique in two

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different ways related to the Electoral College.

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First of all, it is one of only two states that divides its Electoral College votes.

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So in Nebraska, we have five Electoral College votes, and two are awarded on

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the basis of the statewide popular vote,

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and then three are awarded individually on the basis of the popular vote within

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each congressional district.

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And we have one congressional district, the second congressional district,

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that is a competitive district.

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In other words, it could go Democrat or it could go Republican.

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And I believe it was, somebody will have to check me on this,

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but I think it was in 2008 that Obama actually won that electoral college vote.

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So, I mean, there is precedent for this happening.

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The second thing that's unique about Nebraska is it has a single-house,

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nonpartisan legislature.

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And there was an effort earlier in the year to shift Nebraska's electoral vote

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allocation to winner-take-all.

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So whoever won the popular vote statewide would take all five electoral college votes.

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And that, I mean, I don't think I'm going too far out on a limb and saying it's

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going to be the Republican that wins the popular vote statewide.

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And the initial vote failed in the unicameral and didn't attract much support.

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And then, as you point out, Lindsey Graham, and he was joined by the governor of the state.

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And in fact, I think by the entire Nebraska congressional delegation signed on in support of,

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you know, the governor calling a special session with the specific purpose of

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changing the law to win a take all.

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And, you know, clearly the idea was we could get that we could save that electoral

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college vote for Donald Trump for the Republican nominee.

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The problem was that it was never clear that that was going to overcome a filibuster attempt.

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And even some Republican legislators and the legislature were.

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You know, weren't too enthusiastic about that idea.

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And then the timing of it wasn't really propitious either in the sense that,

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you know, one of the perceptions that, that, that, that gave was that,

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holy cow, we're really in a dogfight. We need that electoral vote.

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We need to change the, we need to change the rules now to, to try and save it.

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So, I mean, I'm not sure that this sort of like gave off a perception of strength

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rather than a perception of, of, of concern.

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And that effort, I mean, as you said, there was a state center or two who stood

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up and basically said, no, I'm going to fight this tooth and nail.

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And on the other side, there really wasn't enough enthusiastic support for it

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to, you know, to go through.

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So I think that was a bit of a, you know, a damp squib.

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That wasn't something that was really going to happen from the get-go.

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And in terms of what I think of the Electoral College overall,

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I mean, you know, what I think is it's a really weird way to elect the chief

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executive of the most powerful country on the planet.

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You know, it's a historical artifact, you know, that the people at the Constitutional

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Convention couldn't quite agree on how to elect an executive.

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And they sort of like cobbled together this parliamentary doodad that kind of

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worked, but it's never worked the way they intended.

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But the bottom line is, is we're stuck with it until someone can get a constitutional

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amendment passed that does away with it.

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So love it or hate it, this is what we got. Yeah.

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And I, you know, the historical thing about the Electoral College was similar

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to, you know, that it was basically tied in with the three fifths provision.

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It allowed those states that were smaller and that that had slavery to have a say so.

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As opposed to, you know, the states like New York.

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Well, everybody had slavery at that point, but the southern states tended to need it more.

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There was more labor intensive down there.

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So they came up with Electoral College to give them an equal say-so in that.

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And if you look at the current history, if it wasn't for the Electoral College,

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the Republicans would have won only one election.

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Yeah, I think that's correct. I think the Republican nominee for president has

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only won the popular election once since 1992, I think.

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I think that was 2004 with George W. Bush.

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Yeah, I think you're absolutely right on that. And that was his re-election.

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So if he never would have even been elected if if if it was strictly on a popular vote but,

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i agree with you there was some kind of scenario where if you know as as there's

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a scenario now where things stand the way they are in nebraska which it looks like it's going to be,

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there is a possibility that Vice President Harris would win the election by

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one electoral vote based on that on that model.

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So I think I think we need to get rid of it. But that's like you said,

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that's going to be a long fight.

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Now, the other thing which leads into the book that you wrote.

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Is that Nebraska's Supreme Court.

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Looked at the challenge that the Secretary of State and the Attorney General

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brought forward saying that a law that the State Senate passed,

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They were saying it was unconstitutional. And the law basically said that if

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you served your time, once you have served your time, then you'll be eligible to vote again.

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And that's an issue that's near and dear to me, because when I was in the legislature

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in Mississippi, I was an advocate for that,

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as well as getting people to fill out the necessary paperwork so they could

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get registered to re-register the vote after they've served their time.

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Because the way we had to do it in Mississippi is that each individual has to have their own bill.

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It's not like we can lump everybody into one bill per session.

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It's like each individual person has to list what they were charged with and all that.

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And then the legislature, both houses would have to pass that.

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And I'm very fortunate that I was able to get three people in nine years,

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their suffrage rights back.

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But now in Nebraska, the Supreme Court, it says, as soon as you get through

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with your sentence, as soon as you're released,

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then you then you're you're eligible to register to vote and basically charge

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the secretary of state to make sure that that happens like right now.

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Because I think the window is everybody, if you fall in that category,

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you have to be registered by the 18th or the 25th, something like that.

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Yeah. I mean, the challenge that was made was kind of interesting because,

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you know, I'm not a constitutional lawyer, but certainly my impression was that

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the legal argument that was being made by the attorney general and the secretary of state.

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I mean, you know, the notion that this was outside the jurisdiction of the state

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legislature just, I mean, I didn't quite understand the logic of that.

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I mean, it's the state legislature that makes the law.

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This clearly seemed to be within their, you know, within their wheelhouse and authority to do.

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And, you know, Secretary of State and the Attorney General, their job is to

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execute the law, not to decide the law.

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So I always thought, and again, I'm not a lawyer. Maybe there is a legitimate

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argument there, but I couldn't quite see what it was.

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And the fact that the Supreme Court pretty firmly swatted those concerns away,

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you know, indicates that, you know, whatever the opponents of this law thought,

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it really doesn't have any legal standing.

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That argument doesn't have any real legal standing in the state of Nebraska.

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And generally speaking, you know, reenfranchisement laws are popular with the public that,

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you know, this notion that if you served your time, you should be restored to

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your basic citizenship rights.

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I mean, I think for most Americans, that's an issue of basic fairness.

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But, you know, as we sort of like transition into talking about the book is,

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you know, disenfranchisement runs into partisan politics.

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I mean, look at what happened in Florida. I mean, they effectively passed a

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constitutional amendment saying, yeah, no more disenfranchisement.

00:20:08.497 --> 00:20:13.437
We're done with that. and the state government came back said well okay but

00:20:13.437 --> 00:20:17.417
in order to get the end to you know get your voting rights restored you've got

00:20:17.417 --> 00:20:19.377
to pay off all these court fees and whatnot.

00:20:20.584 --> 00:20:28.264
Essentially shifted disenfranchisement from de jure by law to de facto, just a fact of life.

00:20:28.644 --> 00:20:34.244
And I don't think this is casting aspersions.

00:20:34.304 --> 00:20:37.644
I think this is a reasonable inference to take from the available evidence.

00:20:38.424 --> 00:20:42.944
And some officials in the Republican Party are concerned about re-enfranchisement

00:20:42.944 --> 00:20:50.284
because effectively what they see is a democratic constituency amongst the disenfranchised.

00:20:50.284 --> 00:20:53.804
And if they're re-enfranchised that puts them at an electoral disadvantage

00:20:53.804 --> 00:20:56.624
yeah yeah because

00:20:56.624 --> 00:20:59.824
it was in florida it was like the santas

00:20:59.824 --> 00:21:03.164
came up with this election police

00:21:03.164 --> 00:21:06.204
or whatever and they were going around rounding

00:21:06.204 --> 00:21:09.164
up people and saying well you you committed voter fraud

00:21:09.164 --> 00:21:12.184
and all this stuff so they're re-arresting people

00:21:12.184 --> 00:21:14.984
who actually registered and voted who had

00:21:14.984 --> 00:21:18.844
who had been formerly incarcerated and so yeah and

00:21:18.844 --> 00:21:22.644
then and then it ties back into the previous

00:21:22.644 --> 00:21:25.944
discussion about the electoral college because now

00:21:25.944 --> 00:21:30.764
there's some political pundits that are saying well now that these people if

00:21:30.764 --> 00:21:36.964
these people get registered and vote in this election then that could make sure

00:21:36.964 --> 00:21:43.624
that that swing congressional district in nebraska you know goes in favor of harris,

00:21:44.484 --> 00:21:49.044
so it's kind of it's kind of interesting how that goes and that kind of ties in with my next question.

00:21:50.264 --> 00:21:55.724
Which and forgive me for not remembering the title the full title of the book

00:21:55.724 --> 00:22:00.144
but I think the previous book you wrote was called Predisposed right and the

00:22:00.144 --> 00:22:03.504
current book is The Jailer's Reckoning yeah The Jailer's Reckoning we're gonna

00:22:03.504 --> 00:22:10.004
get to that but there's a tie-in I picked up in between predisposed and the jailer's reckoning.

00:22:10.444 --> 00:22:13.844
And there was a book review of the previous book.

00:22:13.964 --> 00:22:18.724
It said conservatives seem to be more conscientious, believe in self-reliance,

00:22:18.924 --> 00:22:22.684
authority, hierarchy, and order, and favor traditional values.

00:22:23.244 --> 00:22:27.164
Conservatives favor black versus white categories and avoid ambiguity.

00:22:28.124 --> 00:22:32.044
The left focuses on equality, tolerance, departure from tradition,

00:22:32.924 --> 00:22:36.064
sees levels of gray, and tolerates ambiguity.

00:22:36.064 --> 00:22:39.584
And in the book, The Jailer's Reckoning,

00:22:39.884 --> 00:22:47.764
the conclusion you came up with or you showed is that states that tend to vote

00:22:47.764 --> 00:22:52.524
conservatively or have conservative majorities have a higher incarceration rate

00:22:52.524 --> 00:22:57.984
and liberal states tend to have a lower incarceration rate.

00:22:57.984 --> 00:23:01.404
So you see what I did in combining?

00:23:01.584 --> 00:23:07.324
Does that make sense when you were doing, putting the book together? Did that make sense?

00:23:08.164 --> 00:23:11.504
Yeah, no, that made perfect sense. And you're absolutely right.

00:23:11.664 --> 00:23:13.724
I mean, holding all other things constant.

00:23:15.138 --> 00:23:19.618
You know, both the ideological leanings of the legislature and the ideological

00:23:19.618 --> 00:23:23.378
leanings of the electorate predict incarceration rates.

00:23:23.698 --> 00:23:28.178
And, you know, just as you said, you know, more conservative states tend to

00:23:28.178 --> 00:23:32.558
have a much more, hey, you know, you did the crime, you do the time sort of

00:23:32.558 --> 00:23:38.038
attitude, you know, full stop, period, end of sentence, no questions asked.

00:23:38.038 --> 00:23:43.118
And I'm exaggerating a little bit, but I mean, certainly compared to more liberal

00:23:43.118 --> 00:23:48.078
states where there's a little bit more nuance allowed into that,

00:23:48.078 --> 00:23:49.578
allowed into that conversation.

00:23:50.178 --> 00:23:56.838
Yeah. And so I'm in Georgia now and I cut my political teeth primarily in Mississippi.

00:23:57.178 --> 00:24:00.698
So, you know, those states would fall in that category.

00:24:00.918 --> 00:24:06.758
And Mississippi, when you look at it, when you look at the rate per 10,000 per

00:24:06.758 --> 00:24:10.718
100,000, whichever variable you want to use, Mississippi is going to be higher

00:24:10.718 --> 00:24:14.358
because it's only like 3 million people there in the whole state.

00:24:14.358 --> 00:24:17.458
But georgia numbers wise is always

00:24:17.458 --> 00:24:20.638
like one of the top and my argument is

00:24:20.638 --> 00:24:23.938
that it's in georgia's historical dna

00:24:23.938 --> 00:24:26.978
because the state was set up to be

00:24:26.978 --> 00:24:30.478
a penal colony james oglethorpe wanted

00:24:30.478 --> 00:24:33.338
georgia to be a debtor's prison so i just

00:24:33.338 --> 00:24:36.238
you know i i always joke with georgia and

00:24:36.238 --> 00:24:39.038
there's a young lady on tiktok that always has this thing about

00:24:39.038 --> 00:24:42.818
the georgia state patrol don't mess with the georgia state patrol so

00:24:42.818 --> 00:24:46.018
i just always say georgia is always to me is always

00:24:46.018 --> 00:24:48.838
going to be one of the states that

00:24:48.838 --> 00:24:52.718
have a higher incarceration rate than than than

00:24:52.718 --> 00:24:56.998
other states based on its the whole concept of georgia was that it was supposed

00:24:56.998 --> 00:25:03.538
to be a penal colony now it may not be a fair statement but you know i and that's

00:25:03.538 --> 00:25:10.618
just that's just me which which kind of leads to this why do you think that the United States,

00:25:10.818 --> 00:25:17.038
which is supposed to be this beacon of freedom and people from all over the world come.

00:25:17.378 --> 00:25:24.558
We're the only country that every nation in the world is represented in as far as its population.

00:25:25.118 --> 00:25:30.878
Why do you think that we are the country that incarcerates more people than other countries?

00:25:31.238 --> 00:25:35.238
Yeah, that's an interesting question. I mean, and I think I would put A little

00:25:35.238 --> 00:25:41.738
bit of a different spin on that, Eric, in the sense that it's not the nation. It's not the country.

00:25:41.958 --> 00:25:46.878
There is huge variation amongst states like you were talking about Georgia,

00:25:46.878 --> 00:25:51.998
which is like a lot of southern states has a very high incarceration rate. But.

00:25:52.948 --> 00:25:58.188
If you look at incarceration rates by state, I mean, they basically range from

00:25:58.188 --> 00:26:03.808
the equivalent of China and Rwanda to something that is not that different from France.

00:26:04.088 --> 00:26:09.108
And sort of like what I was fascinated by was what explains that,

00:26:09.148 --> 00:26:12.828
that, that variation because you're a hundred percent correct.

00:26:12.828 --> 00:26:17.148
And that if you take the United States as a whole, there's roughly give or take

00:26:17.148 --> 00:26:22.328
10 or 12 million people sitting behind bars across the globe right now.

00:26:22.948 --> 00:26:26.548
2 million of them are in the United States.

00:26:26.928 --> 00:26:31.128
And that 2 million are very unevenly distributed across the states,

00:26:31.288 --> 00:26:33.768
even on a per capita basis.

00:26:34.188 --> 00:26:38.008
You know, you take places like Maine and Massachusetts in terms of incarceration

00:26:38.008 --> 00:26:41.928
rates, they look very different from Texas and Mississippi.

00:26:43.168 --> 00:26:47.648
And, you know, and one of the key core things that I'm trying to investigate

00:26:47.648 --> 00:26:51.408
in this book is what explains that differences. And, you know,

00:26:51.468 --> 00:26:56.388
I've got a typical academic answer to that in the sense that I don't think it's one thing.

00:26:56.608 --> 00:27:01.948
I mean, there's sort of like demographic differences. There are certainly political

00:27:01.948 --> 00:27:03.688
and ideological differences.

00:27:04.008 --> 00:27:10.328
But I also would not disagree with the basic premise that you're making there,

00:27:10.488 --> 00:27:14.128
that there's sort of like historical path dependence.

00:27:14.128 --> 00:27:20.108
I mean, one of the things I read, this fascinating report by de Tocqueville,

00:27:20.288 --> 00:27:25.508
the guy who wrote on democracy, you know, way back in the early part of the 19th century.

00:27:25.788 --> 00:27:30.468
He also, the reason he was in the country was not to write that book.

00:27:30.488 --> 00:27:36.088
He was an agent of the French government being sent to do a report on prisons,

00:27:36.088 --> 00:27:38.688
him and a guy called Gustave de Maubon.

00:27:39.688 --> 00:27:44.928
And one of the things that struck me in reading that was that,

00:27:44.928 --> 00:27:47.548
you know, they were very interested in sort of like, you know,

00:27:47.608 --> 00:27:50.508
what the Quakers were experimenting with in Pennsylvania.

00:27:50.628 --> 00:27:55.128
And they got down to Louisiana and they basically said, we can't even describe this.

00:27:55.448 --> 00:27:59.948
You know, what's going on in these prisons? This is, you know,

00:28:00.048 --> 00:28:05.188
really shocking and inhumane what's going on down here.

00:28:05.983 --> 00:28:09.763
And I think, you know, history does matter. And I mean, I'm not saying that,

00:28:09.763 --> 00:28:13.923
you know, conditions are as bad as they have been historically.

00:28:14.303 --> 00:28:21.223
But certainly, you know, if you go back to people like de Tocqueville or even

00:28:21.223 --> 00:28:24.763
Charles Dickens, he toured a lot of prisons in the United States, too.

00:28:25.023 --> 00:28:31.003
And, you know, one of their takeaways was things are a lot harsher in the southern

00:28:31.003 --> 00:28:36.703
states. And I think that I think that remains true today to a certain to a certain extent.

00:28:37.243 --> 00:28:42.703
And, you know, some of that I think probably is to do with, you know,

00:28:42.823 --> 00:28:44.843
it's a historical legacy in some ways.

00:28:45.443 --> 00:28:49.643
Yeah. I mean, some of the more legendary prisons in the United States,

00:28:49.843 --> 00:28:53.703
you know, you talk about Angola in Louisiana or Parchment in Mississippi.

00:28:54.643 --> 00:28:57.623
Alabama, which are chain gangs and all that kind of stuff.

00:28:57.623 --> 00:29:03.003
You know, that when people went when when Eddie Murphy and Morton Lawrence did

00:29:03.003 --> 00:29:06.383
that movie Life, everybody knew all that's Mississippi.

00:29:06.783 --> 00:29:10.043
That's the South. You have to guess. You know what I'm saying?

00:29:10.083 --> 00:29:11.383
That wasn't New York or Chicago.

00:29:11.523 --> 00:29:17.083
That was that was in the South, you know, so that that that that historical

00:29:17.083 --> 00:29:22.183
reference, even to a non-academic person and somebody is not an expert in it.

00:29:22.623 --> 00:29:25.843
You know, just real life experience always makes that equation.

00:29:25.843 --> 00:29:28.563
But there are one of the things that one of

00:29:28.563 --> 00:29:31.923
the things you know just to follow up on the point that you're making and

00:29:31.923 --> 00:29:34.743
i'm not a historian so this is i'm taking this all

00:29:34.743 --> 00:29:37.563
from other people's work but one of the things that i

00:29:37.563 --> 00:29:40.463
was that i didn't know or at

00:29:40.463 --> 00:29:43.743
least not know in depth as post-civil war

00:29:43.743 --> 00:29:46.483
you know after slavery ended you know

00:29:46.483 --> 00:29:49.423
there were some southern states because you

00:29:49.423 --> 00:29:53.223
know the 13th amendment you know you outlaw

00:29:53.223 --> 00:29:56.503
slavery except in cases of penal servitude

00:29:56.503 --> 00:29:59.243
right and some southern in some

00:29:59.243 --> 00:30:02.483
southern states there were sort of like you know recently freed

00:30:02.483 --> 00:30:05.263
slaves being arrested and then

00:30:05.263 --> 00:30:09.083
rented out to plantation owners and

00:30:09.083 --> 00:30:12.943
i mean that is you know that that

00:30:12.943 --> 00:30:18.403
is not a particularly enlightening history and in history to have and i think

00:30:18.403 --> 00:30:22.903
you can make a defense argument that there are echoes of that that are reflected

00:30:22.903 --> 00:30:29.123
in this huge variation that we have in incarceration rates across different states.

00:30:29.403 --> 00:30:34.363
Right. And the one distinction you make in the book, too, is that the United

00:30:34.363 --> 00:30:38.843
States, as compared to other countries, is not one system.

00:30:38.923 --> 00:30:44.023
So you have a federal system, and then you basically have 50 other state systems.

00:30:44.323 --> 00:30:52.263
And that kind of leads to why Our incarceration Incarceration rate is different

00:30:52.263 --> 00:30:55.763
Than other countries Because most countries are like one,

00:30:56.756 --> 00:31:00.516
Unified system. Everybody follows the same laws.

00:31:00.776 --> 00:31:05.056
They all have the same penalties, regardless of what part of the country they're in.

00:31:06.496 --> 00:31:11.656
There's one particular thing, you know, before time runs out that there's one individual.

00:31:12.536 --> 00:31:16.036
Now, you know, going back and reading like your introduction and all that,

00:31:16.116 --> 00:31:19.716
and you thank your research assistants and you said that this has been a work

00:31:19.716 --> 00:31:25.336
and in progress for a while. But I tend to believe there's this one individual named Larry Derry.

00:31:26.956 --> 00:31:33.636
Yeah. That kind of got your, your, your blood going to really finish this book up.

00:31:33.836 --> 00:31:41.796
Talk, talk about Larry Derry's and why he is the epitome of what is wrong or

00:31:41.796 --> 00:31:44.876
what could be improved in,

00:31:44.996 --> 00:31:50.916
in, in the incarceration system in America and why going back to your.

00:31:51.996 --> 00:31:55.316
Title why is it a reckoning that is

00:31:55.316 --> 00:31:58.376
about to happen yeah so larry dairies

00:31:58.376 --> 00:32:01.556
i read about this purely by chance when

00:32:01.556 --> 00:32:05.616
it actually happened i read about it in a newspaper story

00:32:05.616 --> 00:32:09.156
and then i followed up on that because i initially i

00:32:09.156 --> 00:32:12.136
thought there has to be some sort of typographical error

00:32:12.136 --> 00:32:15.016
here or something because this this doesn't make any

00:32:15.016 --> 00:32:17.936
this doesn't make any sense larry dairies was

00:32:17.936 --> 00:32:21.656
a guy who walked into a whole foods in austin texas and

00:32:21.656 --> 00:32:25.536
lifted a tuna fish sandwich he stole

00:32:25.536 --> 00:32:34.056
the tuna fish sandwich and he got 70 years seven zero no one seven 70 years

00:32:34.056 --> 00:32:39.556
and the reason that he got 70 years was it was his third strike in texas is

00:32:39.556 --> 00:32:43.996
a three strikes state and i sort of like you know Well, if you look at Larry

00:32:43.996 --> 00:32:45.216
Derry's background, I mean.

00:32:46.016 --> 00:32:48.376
You know, he had had kind of, kind of a tough background.

00:32:48.376 --> 00:32:53.076
I mean, he had served some time for other criminal charges, including,

00:32:53.256 --> 00:32:57.236
I think, an assault charge and had had some problems with drugs and had had

00:32:57.236 --> 00:32:58.756
some mental health problems.

00:32:59.016 --> 00:33:03.296
I mean, this wasn't a, I mean, I don't get the impression that he's some sort

00:33:03.296 --> 00:33:05.376
of like criminal mastermind or something.

00:33:05.376 --> 00:33:10.356
I mean, he's just a guy who's kind of had, you know, a tough go of it and,

00:33:10.376 --> 00:33:14.836
and, and life. And I was like 70 years, 70 years.

00:33:15.196 --> 00:33:21.176
So basically he has lost any opportunity he has to have, you know,

00:33:21.276 --> 00:33:26.176
a functioning life as a productive contributing citizen. That's gone.

00:33:26.536 --> 00:33:30.816
And then I tried to get, look at it from the taxpayer's side.

00:33:31.096 --> 00:33:39.396
And what is the lowest defensible estimate that it costs to keep Larry Dairies in jail?

00:33:40.016 --> 00:33:43.556
And, you know, I made a couple of assumptions, like if we take the lowest estimate

00:33:43.556 --> 00:33:49.176
of, you know, what Texas pays to keep somebody locked up, it's around $22,000,

00:33:49.176 --> 00:33:51.236
$23,000, or it was back then.

00:33:52.327 --> 00:33:58.587
And if he gets out at his earliest parole date, it's going to cost the taxpayers

00:33:58.587 --> 00:34:01.147
of the state of Texas a million dollars.

00:34:02.107 --> 00:34:05.787
And I assure you that's an extremely conservative estimate.

00:34:06.347 --> 00:34:10.887
And this is what I, in the book, I actually call it the tuna fish sandwich test.

00:34:11.407 --> 00:34:14.307
It's like, is a million, is it worth a

00:34:14.307 --> 00:34:17.147
million dollars to keep us safe from

00:34:17.147 --> 00:34:20.447
lunch counter larceny and if

00:34:20.447 --> 00:34:23.547
it's not worth a million dollars maybe we should you know

00:34:23.547 --> 00:34:28.127
look at alternatives now if you're talking about violent crime or things like

00:34:28.127 --> 00:34:33.567
that i mean i think incarceration i mean you know isolating people who are committing

00:34:33.567 --> 00:34:37.707
violent acts of social predation yeah i mean there's a reasonable argument to

00:34:37.707 --> 00:34:42.687
keep those isolated and behind bars but is you know are we.

00:34:43.327 --> 00:34:46.527
Not just the the people in prison but we who

00:34:46.527 --> 00:34:49.787
are we being affected by this and

00:34:49.787 --> 00:34:52.567
the short answer is absolutely yes and this

00:34:52.567 --> 00:34:55.407
is what i mean by a reckoning it's not just the people

00:34:55.407 --> 00:35:01.487
who get locked up or paying we're paying we're paying through our taxes mass

00:35:01.487 --> 00:35:07.247
incarceration is such a large phenomena it essentially serves as sort of like

00:35:07.247 --> 00:35:13.687
under regulated or completely unregulated labor market influencer.

00:35:13.867 --> 00:35:16.367
It constrains so much economic opportunity.

00:35:16.587 --> 00:35:20.587
And that actually has a macroeconomic effect at the state level.

00:35:20.727 --> 00:35:23.447
It's hurting states' economies, in other words.

00:35:23.827 --> 00:35:29.727
And it's even, and this is where I probably say the most controversial of things

00:35:29.727 --> 00:35:34.607
in the book, it's probably even influencing the outcome of elections.

00:35:35.027 --> 00:35:38.907
Because to look back to our earlier a conversation about disenfranchisement,

00:35:39.147 --> 00:35:44.727
these numbers are so large now, they probably played a role in determining the

00:35:44.727 --> 00:35:46.307
outcome of presidential elections.

00:35:47.728 --> 00:35:54.788
I would argue certainly in 2000, when George Bush wins by 530 something votes

00:35:54.788 --> 00:36:00.108
in Florida, and that's the difference between being in the White House and not, you take away felony.

00:36:01.108 --> 00:36:04.208
Disenfranchisement, and I'm pretty positive we'd have a president, Al Gore.

00:36:04.628 --> 00:36:09.008
So, you know, from everything from the amount of money the state government

00:36:09.008 --> 00:36:16.068
is taking out of our pocketbooks, to how successful our regional economies are,

00:36:16.388 --> 00:36:22.248
to who ends up holding the most powerful office in the nation and indeed on the planet,

00:36:22.688 --> 00:36:25.548
you know, that's a reckoning that we've all got to face.

00:36:25.648 --> 00:36:28.748
And that's basically where the title is coming from.

00:36:28.928 --> 00:36:32.208
And I don't think people, you know, a lot of people talk about mass incarceration,

00:36:32.208 --> 00:36:35.428
but I don't think enough people really

00:36:35.428 --> 00:36:40.328
talk about and think through the consequences of mass incarceration.

00:36:40.628 --> 00:36:45.048
This is a 40-year social experiment, unprecedented in history,

00:36:45.288 --> 00:36:46.908
that we've been going through.

00:36:47.368 --> 00:36:53.288
And I don't think we've really come to grips with what it's done for us or what it's done to us.

00:36:53.428 --> 00:36:58.068
And what it's done to us, you know, spoiler alert, are not very good things.

00:36:58.888 --> 00:37:04.708
Yeah. And one of the things that you talk about, those consequences that people don't think about,

00:37:05.561 --> 00:37:13.021
We always talk about veterans when they come back from war and we've got a Department

00:37:13.021 --> 00:37:17.581
of Veterans Affairs and we try to take care of our veterans.

00:37:18.181 --> 00:37:22.641
But I would argue, without any statistical research, I would argue that the

00:37:22.641 --> 00:37:26.621
second biggest group behind veterans, if not a bigger group than veterans,

00:37:26.821 --> 00:37:29.221
is those who are formerly incarcerated.

00:37:30.301 --> 00:37:35.201
And, you know, there is a reckoning in the sense that, you know,

00:37:35.281 --> 00:37:41.221
here are citizens that have served their time and are trying to,

00:37:41.401 --> 00:37:44.081
we tell them, do the right thing when you get out.

00:37:44.661 --> 00:37:50.521
But there's hardly any support system, especially in these southern states,

00:37:50.801 --> 00:37:55.941
to get these people back and to be productive in society.

00:37:56.801 --> 00:38:00.961
Real quick, what's your take on that? Yeah, I think that's, I mean,

00:38:01.041 --> 00:38:07.421
I think that's a fairly accurate statement, at least based on the research that I dug into.

00:38:07.681 --> 00:38:11.061
I mean, there are some people who were released from jail who are on parole

00:38:11.061 --> 00:38:14.281
and they, you know, as a condition of their release, they have to check in with

00:38:14.281 --> 00:38:17.141
their parole officer, but that requires transportation.

00:38:18.181 --> 00:38:23.281
And they don't have a car, they don't have the resources to even take public transportation.

00:38:23.281 --> 00:38:26.421
And you know they're really scrambling just

00:38:26.421 --> 00:38:29.601
to meet the terms of of their of of

00:38:29.601 --> 00:38:35.141
their parole and you know you know there's research that suggests even if things

00:38:35.141 --> 00:38:41.961
go smoothly once you've been released you're probably looking at a hit of around

00:38:41.961 --> 00:38:47.201
30 percent off of your lifetime income because if you've served a jail term

00:38:47.201 --> 00:38:49.501
and especially what i'm looking at which is,

00:38:50.301 --> 00:38:54.261
you know people who serve terms and state penitenters

00:38:54.261 --> 00:38:57.161
which means they've been convicted of a felony if you

00:38:57.161 --> 00:39:00.381
have a felony that's a line on your cv that

00:39:00.381 --> 00:39:03.541
severely constricts your social economic

00:39:03.541 --> 00:39:07.381
and and political opportunities and i

00:39:07.381 --> 00:39:11.081
i mean i think this is and i talk about this in the book i think this is one

00:39:11.081 --> 00:39:15.981
of the reasons why we have such high recidivism rates and some states have astonishingly

00:39:15.981 --> 00:39:25.141
high recidivism rates is because the options get so constrained once you're out that, you know,

00:39:25.981 --> 00:39:31.021
going back to extra legal means of supporting yourself is, you know,

00:39:31.221 --> 00:39:35.621
I don't want to say an easy option, but it's certainly a more available option

00:39:35.621 --> 00:39:39.601
than some of the other options that are not made available to you out there.

00:39:40.481 --> 00:39:42.021
Yeah. So look.

00:39:43.470 --> 00:39:49.790
We got to close it, but I just want to tell people this is not a long book to

00:39:49.790 --> 00:39:53.390
read, but it is very, very packed.

00:39:53.590 --> 00:39:58.010
It's kind of what's the term I want to power packed, even though it's not a

00:39:58.010 --> 00:40:00.050
long book, but there's so much good information.

00:40:00.250 --> 00:40:08.130
And you even go out and say that, you know, it may not weigh your opinion one

00:40:08.130 --> 00:40:10.110
way or the other, but at least you'll have the fact.

00:40:10.110 --> 00:40:15.690
I'm paraphrasing, of course, because you're much more articulate than I am in that sense.

00:40:15.970 --> 00:40:21.250
But I want people to get this book and read it because this is a major,

00:40:21.470 --> 00:40:26.290
major discussion, maybe not at the presidential election level,

00:40:26.310 --> 00:40:31.070
but definitely at the local level, at your state level.

00:40:31.290 --> 00:40:35.990
This is something that really, really needs to be discussed and the citizens

00:40:35.990 --> 00:40:41.690
need to be informed. So how can people get the Jailer's Reckoning and how can

00:40:41.690 --> 00:40:43.970
people get in touch with you to have further discussions?

00:40:44.310 --> 00:40:48.350
You can get the Jailer's Reckoning through, you know, the usual places.

00:40:48.350 --> 00:40:51.990
You can get it on Amazon.com. It's available for pre-order.

00:40:52.150 --> 00:40:55.550
Same with Barnes and Noble, same with Powell's.com.

00:40:55.810 --> 00:40:59.190
It'll be released on November 5th and it is a trade book.

00:40:59.330 --> 00:41:04.350
So you should be able to find it in independent bookstores in your local BNN.

00:41:04.350 --> 00:41:10.850
And if you want more information, I do have a website, and that is just kevinbsmith.com.

00:41:11.230 --> 00:41:16.330
Just K-E-V-I-N-B-S-M-I-T-H dot com.

00:41:16.690 --> 00:41:22.390
And that's got, you know, you can even read a sample of the book on the website.

00:41:22.850 --> 00:41:27.330
And I appreciate what you said about the book, Eric, and I do want to assure

00:41:27.330 --> 00:41:31.250
your listeners, this is not a, it's not a book written for academics.

00:41:31.910 --> 00:41:37.870
What I'm trying to connect with is a general audience. It's not a big doorstop poem.

00:41:38.170 --> 00:41:42.550
It is, you know, I've tried to write it in a way that, you know,

00:41:42.630 --> 00:41:47.070
it can connect with people who are just interested and curious about the issue.

00:41:47.650 --> 00:41:50.930
Yeah, and you do a good job with that, Professor.

00:41:51.170 --> 00:41:55.110
So I thank you. So, look, ladies and gentlemen, this has been Professor Kevin

00:41:55.110 --> 00:42:00.130
Smith, and he has written this incredible book called The Jailer's Reckoning.

00:42:00.750 --> 00:42:05.170
Pre-order it if you can. As soon as they hit the bookstores, go get it.

00:42:05.690 --> 00:42:09.070
And, Professor, thank you so much for coming on the podcast.

00:42:09.070 --> 00:42:10.250
I greatly appreciate it.

00:42:10.910 --> 00:42:14.710
Oh, thank you. I've really enjoyed that conversation, Eric. All right,

00:42:14.810 --> 00:42:16.390
guys, and we're going to catch you all on the other side.

00:42:17.040 --> 00:42:36.240
Music.

00:42:36.386 --> 00:42:44.506
All right. And we are back. So now it's time for my next guest, who is Sherman Wells.

00:42:45.246 --> 00:42:49.306
Sherman Wells was born and raised in the birthplace of Malcolm X,

00:42:49.806 --> 00:42:51.846
which is Omaha, Nebraska.

00:42:52.346 --> 00:42:58.366
He is the father of four and he has been a devoted husband for 22 years.

00:42:58.366 --> 00:43:08.206
He is the founder of Untamed, and that's U.N.T.A.M.E.D.

00:43:09.826 --> 00:43:17.126
He describes himself as a God-guided and God-provided man that's here to help mankind.

00:43:17.666 --> 00:43:21.846
Ladies and gentlemen, it is my distinct honor and privilege to have as a guest

00:43:21.846 --> 00:43:25.246
on this podcast, Sherman Wells.

00:43:25.246 --> 00:43:36.066
We'll see you next time.

00:43:26.480 --> 00:43:36.560
Music.

00:43:36.106 --> 00:43:42.006
All right Sherman Wells how you doing brother you doing good I'm doing fantastic

00:43:42.006 --> 00:43:46.886
brother how about you I'm doing lovely man I am I'm really really glad to have

00:43:46.886 --> 00:43:49.166
you on I thought it was funny,

00:43:49.686 --> 00:43:52.606
when I asked you to come on the podcast you was like little old

00:43:52.606 --> 00:43:55.386
me what you want to talk the

00:43:55.386 --> 00:43:58.126
little old me about but it seems like

00:43:58.126 --> 00:44:01.466
you got a lot going on in omaha especially in

00:44:01.466 --> 00:44:06.206
the area of north omaha nebraska and so i wanted to uplift what you're doing

00:44:06.206 --> 00:44:11.906
and and get you to talk about some things so before we get started what i like

00:44:11.906 --> 00:44:17.126
to do is kind of a little ice breaker thing okay so i throw a quote at the guest

00:44:17.126 --> 00:44:21.006
and then i want want you to respond so this is your quote.

00:44:21.786 --> 00:44:24.626
The worst part of being a black man in

00:44:24.626 --> 00:44:27.546
america is these damn people try and

00:44:27.546 --> 00:44:30.806
treat you like a black man in america until you

00:44:30.806 --> 00:44:34.586
show that you are an african king living in

00:44:34.586 --> 00:44:37.746
america what does that mean to you that means

00:44:37.746 --> 00:44:40.486
to me that yeah like you said being a black man in

00:44:40.486 --> 00:44:43.286
america the worst part is being a black man in america because they have

00:44:43.286 --> 00:44:46.206
a stipulation on what a black man is supposed to be in America

00:44:46.206 --> 00:44:49.106
and so we don't fall into

00:44:49.106 --> 00:44:51.886
the stipulation of what they expect so that makes us

00:44:51.886 --> 00:44:55.066
unpredictable when you realize you're a black king and so

00:44:55.066 --> 00:44:57.966
yeah I am a

00:44:57.966 --> 00:45:01.166
brother in America but I don't fall into the stipulation with

00:45:01.166 --> 00:45:03.906
the what they programmed us to be as far

00:45:03.906 --> 00:45:06.686
as the black man in America now I lived it

00:45:06.686 --> 00:45:09.866
before I did fall into it in the beginning but I

00:45:09.866 --> 00:45:12.626
realized my power was greater than the stigmatism that

00:45:12.626 --> 00:45:16.466
they put on us to be the black man in america yeah and

00:45:16.466 --> 00:45:21.166
and i'm sure when we get into the work that you're doing we'll we'll get into

00:45:21.166 --> 00:45:26.546
that a little more but i wanted to deal with a couple of issues that's impacting

00:45:26.546 --> 00:45:32.686
your state yes sir so the first one is lindsey graham showed up the senator

00:45:32.686 --> 00:45:35.086
of south carolina showed up and tried to get.

00:45:36.602 --> 00:45:41.842
Your state Senate to change the way they count their electoral votes right now.

00:45:42.102 --> 00:45:47.182
Each congressional district is not winner take all each congressional district

00:45:47.182 --> 00:45:51.322
can, can determine who won that congressional district and vote.

00:45:51.942 --> 00:45:58.062
And the way the scenario is now is that from the past,

00:45:58.942 --> 00:46:03.022
one congressional district, I think it's the second congressional district in

00:46:03.022 --> 00:46:06.962
Nebraska that the second tends to go. You said that's us.

00:46:07.322 --> 00:46:11.662
The second tends to go Democratic more than normal and the rest of the state goes Republican.

00:46:12.782 --> 00:46:18.642
And so there is some kind of model that's out there that says that Vice President

00:46:18.642 --> 00:46:23.742
Harris could win the election based on that one electoral vote in Nebraska,

00:46:23.742 --> 00:46:29.222
which is why they sent Lindsey Graham to try to convince the Republican majority

00:46:29.222 --> 00:46:32.682
there to to go a winner take all.

00:46:32.682 --> 00:46:37.042
But it was one or two state senators that were Republicans like,

00:46:37.202 --> 00:46:38.462
yeah, no, we're not going for that.

00:46:38.622 --> 00:46:42.262
Talk, talk to me about that and what the impact is there in Nebraska.

00:46:42.682 --> 00:46:47.542
Uh, so I think it's important in every presidential election is when they bring

00:46:47.542 --> 00:46:52.302
it up and try to highlight us here, because like you said, the rest of Nebraska

00:46:52.302 --> 00:46:56.402
is all red. And then we got our district always go to.

00:46:56.702 --> 00:47:01.502
And so with us in Maine, there's this, the two electoral college thing.

00:47:01.702 --> 00:47:03.922
And so I think it's important because

00:47:03.922 --> 00:47:08.442
we don't all like North Omaha is the birthplace of Malcolm X for one.

00:47:08.642 --> 00:47:12.282
And so we, we have a, we tend to look at things a different way.

00:47:12.422 --> 00:47:17.462
And so it kind of backfired on them to have us all junked into one city.

00:47:17.782 --> 00:47:22.362
And then everybody else outside of Omaha, there's really not too many black people.

00:47:22.522 --> 00:47:26.402
So that's how that, you know, was established. And now they want to take it

00:47:26.402 --> 00:47:29.522
away because they want to do the winner take all.

00:47:29.662 --> 00:47:33.302
But I think it's important for us to be able to keep our voice and keep our

00:47:33.302 --> 00:47:38.042
own vote on what we want based off the rest of Nebraska, because we are very

00:47:38.042 --> 00:47:41.282
segregated when it comes to Nebraska, the way it's split up.

00:47:41.462 --> 00:47:45.122
And North Omaha is the majority is where you're going to find the black people.

00:47:45.462 --> 00:47:51.262
So, yeah, it didn't work. We had one Republican senator that held his ground

00:47:51.262 --> 00:47:54.582
and didn't fold to the rest, which he used to be a Democrat,

00:47:54.622 --> 00:47:56.002
and he jumped to the other side.

00:47:56.362 --> 00:48:01.042
But he still thought it was important for our district to be able to have its own voice.

00:48:01.182 --> 00:48:05.682
So he stuck with the people, stuck to his guns, even though he was getting all the.

00:48:06.436 --> 00:48:10.276
Rhetoric thrown at him about him being a traitor and Donald Trump and everybody

00:48:10.276 --> 00:48:11.536
else coming for his neck.

00:48:11.776 --> 00:48:15.236
He still held his ground because he know he got to see us if we come to Lincoln.

00:48:15.556 --> 00:48:16.736
He ain't that far away, brother.

00:48:17.376 --> 00:48:23.476
So, yeah, we'll show up in buses if we have to to make sure our voices are heard.

00:48:23.596 --> 00:48:28.456
And so he knew that and he didn't flip flop on us again. So that was a good thing.

00:48:28.916 --> 00:48:32.076
Yeah. And I noticed if they had done it,

00:48:32.116 --> 00:48:35.156
it had to have been a special session called and

00:48:35.156 --> 00:48:38.116
trying to do this within the window of the

00:48:38.116 --> 00:48:41.056
you know the current election that that

00:48:41.056 --> 00:48:45.056
would have that would have been a bad look all the way around do

00:48:45.056 --> 00:48:52.356
you feel that we need to have an electoral college or you know or do we do we

00:48:52.356 --> 00:48:58.056
need to look at trying to get a popular vote for president you know i think

00:48:58.056 --> 00:49:03.336
the popular vote would be good but since it's set up the way it is you know,

00:49:03.416 --> 00:49:05.876
and that's how these people do it. If they vote, it's their thing.

00:49:06.036 --> 00:49:09.356
So, you know, I'm a registered independent, so I don't have a side.

00:49:09.816 --> 00:49:15.216
And so, yeah, I think the Electoral College, the way they're doing it now, I think it's okay.

00:49:15.596 --> 00:49:19.396
Popular vote would be good. I mean, I guess if you're looking at it from a standpoint

00:49:19.396 --> 00:49:24.236
of the most of the time, the popular vote is not the person who wins the election.

00:49:24.456 --> 00:49:28.896
So, you know, the Electoral College is kind of a funny thing,

00:49:29.016 --> 00:49:32.216
but But I think it's either way for me, you know,

00:49:32.796 --> 00:49:39.176
long as we get to have our own here in Omaha and cast our electoral college

00:49:39.176 --> 00:49:41.496
vote the way we want, I think it's fine. OK.

00:49:42.136 --> 00:49:48.396
All right. So now the Nebraska Supreme Court has stepped in because there was

00:49:48.396 --> 00:49:52.636
a law passed by the state Senate that would allow people who were formerly incarcerated

00:49:52.636 --> 00:49:55.736
to be able to vote once they're.

00:49:56.767 --> 00:50:01.847
Time has been served. And that's an issue that's kind of special to me because

00:50:01.847 --> 00:50:03.807
when I was in the legislature in Mississippi,

00:50:03.807 --> 00:50:10.747
there was a process where if you were formerly incarcerated and you wanted to

00:50:10.747 --> 00:50:12.467
get your right to vote back,

00:50:12.727 --> 00:50:16.567
there are like eight offenses that you lose your right to vote.

00:50:16.987 --> 00:50:21.187
And we had an attorney general that said it's actually 22, but the Constitution

00:50:21.187 --> 00:50:24.727
said whatever. So it's eight constitutional offenses.

00:50:25.367 --> 00:50:28.107
And so we would literally have to

00:50:28.107 --> 00:50:32.147
introduce a bill with your name on it and and

00:50:32.147 --> 00:50:35.167
and your charges and then we would have to get that bill

00:50:35.167 --> 00:50:39.827
passed by the majorities of both the house and the senate and signed by the

00:50:39.827 --> 00:50:45.027
governor for you to get your voting rights back and i was very fortunate in

00:50:45.027 --> 00:50:49.507
nine years that i was there that i got three people to get their rights back

00:50:49.507 --> 00:50:53.427
and you know so So I know that that's a major,

00:50:53.607 --> 00:50:58.847
major hurdle in Nebraska for people to be for the Supreme Court to make that

00:50:58.847 --> 00:51:04.147
decision and allow people once they serve their time to get their voting rights back.

00:51:04.367 --> 00:51:09.387
Talk to me about the impact and what the immediate challenge is for this particular

00:51:09.387 --> 00:51:11.887
election with this happening.

00:51:11.887 --> 00:51:15.507
Yeah so with this particular election already

00:51:15.507 --> 00:51:18.607
we were facing the id thing where

00:51:18.607 --> 00:51:21.547
they required everybody to have an id which is

00:51:21.547 --> 00:51:26.007
more voter suppression so then they our senator came up with this thing where

00:51:26.007 --> 00:51:30.547
you can get a voting id so even if you couldn't get you know your driver's license

00:51:30.547 --> 00:51:34.347
or a nebraska state id you get a voter id we heard on that right so it's always

00:51:34.347 --> 00:51:39.627
this voter suppression thing so then it was oh even though they said the felons

00:51:39.627 --> 00:51:41.087
can vote we here in Nebraska.

00:51:41.307 --> 00:51:43.547
We don't agree with that, so we're going to go against that.

00:51:43.727 --> 00:51:47.327
And then the Supreme Court had to step in and say, hey, you don't have a right

00:51:47.327 --> 00:51:50.287
to go against something that was passed in the law. So.

00:51:51.204 --> 00:51:57.384
Now that they've made it possible, the next hurdle is everybody's been waiting

00:51:57.384 --> 00:52:00.164
to get registered because they didn't know if they could.

00:52:00.324 --> 00:52:03.804
So now our hurdle is to hurry up and get everybody registered before the deadline.

00:52:04.104 --> 00:52:09.184
So here the NAACP is pushing for the voter registration date to be pushed back

00:52:09.184 --> 00:52:11.124
to give those people time to register.

00:52:11.624 --> 00:52:15.844
Because it's just so many hurdles and games being played to suppress the vote.

00:52:16.004 --> 00:52:20.204
You wanted to make it all voter take all, you know, and then this ID.

00:52:20.204 --> 00:52:23.484
Then this and now we up against the

00:52:23.484 --> 00:52:26.964
time limit of people getting registered to vote so now but

00:52:26.964 --> 00:52:29.824
with each hurdle as we work together as a unit we

00:52:29.824 --> 00:52:32.664
jumping them you know and that's what we do if you ever seen

00:52:32.664 --> 00:52:35.364
a black person run and do the hurdles we clearing them

00:52:35.364 --> 00:52:38.744
hurdles right because right because

00:52:38.744 --> 00:52:42.724
it was one deadline was set for the 18th yeah

00:52:42.724 --> 00:52:45.644
and then and then the next deadline i think

00:52:45.644 --> 00:52:49.124
the 18th was like if you wanted to vote absentee or something and

00:52:49.124 --> 00:52:52.444
then the the 25th of october

00:52:52.444 --> 00:52:55.504
is the deadline for everybody so y'all are

00:52:55.504 --> 00:52:59.564
trying to get it pushed back even further than the 25th yes

00:52:59.564 --> 00:53:02.344
sir and that was just done today i mean

00:53:02.344 --> 00:53:05.724
coordination with the naacp they sent me a message and

00:53:05.724 --> 00:53:08.564
asked me could i put it out on my platform that that's what we're

00:53:08.564 --> 00:53:11.404
working to do so all right well well good luck

00:53:11.404 --> 00:53:15.224
in that you know i'm sure that well i

00:53:15.224 --> 00:53:18.024
mean the secretary of state was the one who was challenging it

00:53:18.024 --> 00:53:20.884
and the attorney general so you know.

00:53:20.884 --> 00:53:23.684
I did and the court pretty much told them you have to

00:53:23.684 --> 00:53:26.604
do this so you know i'm sure they'll try

00:53:26.604 --> 00:53:29.324
to accommodate hopefully some with you know

00:53:29.324 --> 00:53:32.264
you in the respective counties because you've got like

00:53:32.264 --> 00:53:35.264
how many counties you have Nebraska like 90 something I

00:53:35.264 --> 00:53:38.404
think it's 90 90 exactly maybe

00:53:38.404 --> 00:53:41.264
92 I think okay yeah that's that's

00:53:41.264 --> 00:53:44.404
a lot and not as many as Georgia but more than Mississippi because

00:53:44.404 --> 00:53:52.084
Mississippi has 82 and Georgia's got 159 so you know it's like hopefully in

00:53:52.084 --> 00:53:57.944
those those counties especially in the counties that comprise the second district

00:53:57.944 --> 00:54:02.924
that folks will be able to get registered and

00:54:03.224 --> 00:54:05.504
they'll, they'll have some grace with that.

00:54:05.844 --> 00:54:11.424
If not, yeah, if not, I assume that y'all are going to mobilize people and get

00:54:11.424 --> 00:54:13.904
them registered by the 25th. If you can't get to it.

00:54:14.444 --> 00:54:18.844
Yes, sir. All right. So talk about, since we're talking about mobilization,

00:54:19.064 --> 00:54:26.664
talk about untamed, what is untamed and why did you choose that name for the organization?

00:54:26.884 --> 00:54:32.544
Hey man, untamed is actually, it means, Let me see if I can step to the side.

00:54:33.044 --> 00:54:37.444
A unified nation taking action, mentally erasing deception.

00:54:38.412 --> 00:54:42.312
So that's what untamed means. And that unified nation that takes the action

00:54:42.312 --> 00:54:46.332
mentally, erasing the deception mentally, when you talk about the thought process,

00:54:46.452 --> 00:54:49.132
kind of with the question you asked about being a black man in America.

00:54:49.472 --> 00:54:53.472
We have been mentally brainwashed to believe that we can't work with each other.

00:54:53.592 --> 00:54:57.372
We've been mentally brainwashed to believe that when I see another brother,

00:54:57.532 --> 00:54:59.332
I'm supposed to mug him and we instantly enemies.

00:54:59.332 --> 00:55:02.212
We have to erase that deception that we can work

00:55:02.212 --> 00:55:05.192
together we are not enemies and we not

00:55:05.192 --> 00:55:08.132
the black men that they the system say we are however

00:55:08.132 --> 00:55:12.172
we are the creators and kings of the state you know of the world so that's what

00:55:12.172 --> 00:55:17.832
untamed is it's a lifestyle and and based off having a unified nation with the

00:55:17.832 --> 00:55:21.232
nation we also wrote a pledge just a melanated people pledge and i'll share

00:55:21.232 --> 00:55:25.652
that with you when when i i'll send it to you so you can take a look at it it's

00:55:25.652 --> 00:55:27.112
basically just a pledge to us,

00:55:27.452 --> 00:55:31.932
a pledge to ourselves that we are, you know, pledging that we're going to take

00:55:31.932 --> 00:55:33.612
care of our health, our children,

00:55:34.012 --> 00:55:37.992
our, you know, protect the queens, uplift the kings. That's part of the pledge.

00:55:38.252 --> 00:55:42.172
And so a nation has to have a pledge. And so and also in that nation,

00:55:42.192 --> 00:55:46.272
we have to mentally regain our thoughts and our thought process and the way

00:55:46.272 --> 00:55:51.732
we look at each other and uplifting our economic growth, education, all that stuff, man.

00:55:51.732 --> 00:55:57.892
And being able to police ourselves and hold ourselves accountable for when we

00:55:57.892 --> 00:56:02.092
see people that's falling into the black stigmatism of what America has.

00:56:02.172 --> 00:56:03.832
And we can say, hey, man, that's that's not you.

00:56:04.392 --> 00:56:07.852
So it's a lifestyle. It's a family promoted. The nucleus family.

00:56:08.092 --> 00:56:11.792
We do believe in that. And yeah, man, it's just a beautiful thing.

00:56:11.912 --> 00:56:15.732
And so when we go to different states, that's what we're promoting,

00:56:15.932 --> 00:56:21.272
the untamed lifestyle. So like you said, as a lifestyle, it's not necessarily an organization.

00:56:22.112 --> 00:56:27.212
It's really a concept of of how we as black people should treat each other.

00:56:28.168 --> 00:56:31.948
Absolutely. And it was started by me, my wife and my daughter.

00:56:32.128 --> 00:56:36.668
So the foundation is family, you know, and I have two, three other sons that

00:56:36.668 --> 00:56:38.608
also participate, but they have families.

00:56:39.088 --> 00:56:42.148
My daughter is still at home, even though she's 24, she's still at home.

00:56:42.248 --> 00:56:46.488
And so we ain't resting her out, but she has been a pivotal part of Untamed

00:56:46.488 --> 00:56:51.828
because she helps with us when we are talking to the young people to understand

00:56:51.828 --> 00:56:54.068
that, you know, she's a young black woman.

00:56:54.208 --> 00:56:56.888
She don't have to be what the they stigmatize the

00:56:56.888 --> 00:57:00.748
black women to be in this country so yeah so

00:57:00.748 --> 00:57:04.268
talk so let me ask you this question right because

00:57:04.268 --> 00:57:07.528
one of the things i've noticed

00:57:07.528 --> 00:57:10.748
in social media and especially it started around

00:57:10.748 --> 00:57:15.928
this conversation about reparations right that there

00:57:15.928 --> 00:57:20.608
are a group of black people who are anti-immigrant

00:57:20.608 --> 00:57:23.528
and and they specifically do not

00:57:23.528 --> 00:57:28.008
like immigrants from africa and and

00:57:28.008 --> 00:57:35.048
there are some african immigrants that are on social media that that uh criticize

00:57:35.048 --> 00:57:43.968
african americans or black americans however you want to say you know as far as i guess we're not.

00:57:44.588 --> 00:57:47.408
I don't know what the term is it's it's like we're

00:57:47.408 --> 00:57:50.188
not we're not as sophisticated as they are or

00:57:50.188 --> 00:57:53.168
whatever the case may be when you see that how

00:57:53.168 --> 00:57:56.208
does that make you feel and what is and and

00:57:56.208 --> 00:58:02.108
how does that does that does it inspire you to continue to do what you're doing

00:58:02.108 --> 00:58:07.748
with with untamed or just talk about your reaction when you when you see that

00:58:07.748 --> 00:58:13.628
kind of stuff well for one in omaha we have the largest population of Sudanese

00:58:13.628 --> 00:58:14.948
people outside of Sudan.

00:58:15.388 --> 00:58:20.108
So I currently rock with the Sudan people 100%.

00:58:20.108 --> 00:58:25.388
And that's because what they understand and what I've explained in our message

00:58:25.388 --> 00:58:30.868
to them is regardless of what we think about each other, the outside people, we just black.

00:58:31.268 --> 00:58:35.048
And so when you get pulled over, when you get profiled, you black.

00:58:35.288 --> 00:58:40.608
And so part of the problem is I think the stigmatism that was created.

00:58:41.897 --> 00:58:47.117
Not by us, but to keep us separated. And, and a lot of the times before we even

00:58:47.117 --> 00:58:50.557
get a chance to build a relationship with each other, we go off of that instead

00:58:50.557 --> 00:58:52.437
of actually talking to each other.

00:58:52.717 --> 00:58:57.117
And so what I found out working with them is a lot of their young people has

00:58:57.117 --> 00:59:01.757
come here and then they done got assimilated to the gangs and the older people

00:59:01.757 --> 00:59:04.657
don't know what to do with them. So they'll just throw them out and say, they're crazy.

00:59:04.777 --> 00:59:09.397
You got the demon in you. But what they starting to realize is that program

00:59:09.397 --> 00:59:12.677
is for the specific skin color.

00:59:12.837 --> 00:59:16.277
It has nothing to do with where you're from. So when you come here and you are

00:59:16.277 --> 00:59:18.417
African, you start getting involved.

00:59:18.717 --> 00:59:22.077
And plus, they put you in a poor community. So you start joining the gang.

00:59:22.277 --> 00:59:26.297
And what they finding out is now, oh, no, it's not just the black people and

00:59:26.297 --> 00:59:29.337
how they act. It's the system that teaches us to act that way.

00:59:29.537 --> 00:59:34.197
So now they need us to help get big kids from mentally falling into the gang.

00:59:34.197 --> 00:59:38.917
And we need them to remember that Africa is the motherland and we got natural

00:59:38.917 --> 00:59:42.817
things that we can get from there, like our language, our food, our culture.

00:59:43.197 --> 00:59:47.357
And so that's the exchange we need to understand that we have with our African

00:59:47.357 --> 00:59:51.357
brothers and sisters that, you know, we need to help them keep their kids from

00:59:51.357 --> 00:59:54.797
the gangs, but they should be able to share the knowledge and wisdom and the

00:59:54.797 --> 00:59:56.717
things that we need coming from Africa.

00:59:56.897 --> 01:00:00.217
But when I see people acting like that or doing that to each other,

01:00:00.317 --> 01:00:01.977
you know, I'll try to educate them.

01:00:02.057 --> 01:00:05.657
But one thing I know is you can't control a human So if it's in them to be that

01:00:05.657 --> 01:00:08.277
way, it must be something else in their life that make them miserable.

01:00:08.277 --> 01:00:10.817
If you think you're going to focus on something like that.

01:00:10.897 --> 01:00:14.177
But in reality, it'll smack you in the face when you get profiled.

01:00:14.497 --> 01:00:17.657
Whether you're black or African, you're going to get profiled in America.

01:00:18.417 --> 01:00:21.717
Yeah, they would realize that that's not the place.

01:00:21.877 --> 01:00:27.497
So here we definitely work across the board with all the Sudanese and any African immigrant.

01:00:27.757 --> 01:00:29.617
We got a middle and African chamber.

01:00:30.581 --> 01:00:34.841
And and I was the I wasn't the president. I was on their board for the first

01:00:34.841 --> 01:00:38.781
few years they were here just because I wanted them people to know that just

01:00:38.781 --> 01:00:43.561
because it's a middling African chamber is still for African black and white.

01:00:43.721 --> 01:00:47.401
I mean, black and, you know, indigenous. So, yeah. Yeah.

01:00:47.841 --> 01:00:52.181
And, you know, I have the same philosophy. It bothers me a lot.

01:00:52.681 --> 01:00:59.761
You know, having gone to Jackson State, you know, I interacted with a lot of brothers and sisters.

01:01:00.341 --> 01:01:01.901
There's a lot of them from Nigeria.

01:01:02.681 --> 01:01:05.321
And and so you know

01:01:05.321 --> 01:01:07.941
to this day it's like you know

01:01:07.941 --> 01:01:10.841
we'll you know if i'm in jackson or i

01:01:10.841 --> 01:01:17.061
run into you know some people that i went to school with you know we we we interact

01:01:17.061 --> 01:01:20.321
like you know we're brothers or sisters you know what i'm saying i mean you

01:01:20.321 --> 01:01:24.921
know it's like everybody's everybody's cool with each other and it was a different

01:01:24.921 --> 01:01:30.701
time too but still you know it just because when i was When I was in school,

01:01:31.701 --> 01:01:33.881
it was like Pan-African was the thing.

01:01:34.021 --> 01:01:37.881
It was like we wanted to connect with our African brothers and sisters,

01:01:37.881 --> 01:01:40.281
and we wanted to follow that example.

01:01:40.741 --> 01:01:46.781
And I'm just really disturbed. So I'm glad that in the work that you're doing,

01:01:46.801 --> 01:01:50.861
there's a relationship in the community, and that's very, very positive.

01:01:51.301 --> 01:01:54.521
So talk about Untamed Summer.

01:01:55.337 --> 01:01:59.857
Explain what the concept of that was and how did it go this year?

01:02:00.277 --> 01:02:04.317
So we didn't do it this year. The last year we did it was 2022.

01:02:04.737 --> 01:02:09.297
Okay. The summer program is basically community building.

01:02:09.577 --> 01:02:14.577
We did it in the poorest income area, the poorest area, they say, in Nebraska and Omaha.

01:02:15.017 --> 01:02:19.857
And so what we did was, of course, food is always a draw. So we feed people four to seven.

01:02:20.237 --> 01:02:22.917
And then during that time when they come, it's every Sunday,

01:02:23.077 --> 01:02:28.877
four to seven for 20 weeks at a time. We did it two years straight, 21, 22, 23 and 24.

01:02:29.077 --> 01:02:33.717
We kind of had some conflicts because, like I told you, there's people who want to pimp the poverty.

01:02:33.917 --> 01:02:38.317
And so when we were there, our program started changing the numbers.

01:02:38.437 --> 01:02:41.777
And so you can't write the same grant to say that this is happening in the poor

01:02:41.777 --> 01:02:46.197
community when you got somebody that's changing the diagram of the numbers.

01:02:46.217 --> 01:02:50.657
And so when the crime rate started going down in that area, we didn't have police

01:02:50.657 --> 01:02:54.257
calls for two years in that area. There were certain people that wanted us removed.

01:02:54.437 --> 01:02:57.917
So we had to move to a different location. So we'll run it again this following year.

01:02:58.377 --> 01:03:03.477
However, at that community building time, you got a place for central people

01:03:03.477 --> 01:03:05.657
to gather and get to know each other.

01:03:05.917 --> 01:03:10.697
We were talking politics. We brought in people from around the community that

01:03:10.697 --> 01:03:14.917
would be like special guests or highlight them to talk to the children from

01:03:14.917 --> 01:03:18.437
lawyers, basic mechanics, black business owners.

01:03:18.437 --> 01:03:21.337
They come in every week and they talk and then also

01:03:21.337 --> 01:03:24.397
we had the political talks and the strategy talks

01:03:24.397 --> 01:03:27.677
and you know while the kids play the adults

01:03:27.677 --> 01:03:30.577
strategize and it started taking such an

01:03:30.577 --> 01:03:35.237
effect that the news every newspaper you know they were writing articles about

01:03:35.237 --> 01:03:38.737
it and then again like i said you know certain people that didn't want it to

01:03:38.737 --> 01:03:42.897
continue they did what they could to stop it but now you can't stop it we done

01:03:42.897 --> 01:03:48.757
moved to a different location and this location is open and 100% going to never pull the rug.

01:03:48.917 --> 01:03:53.837
And I think when you talk about building community, we should be able to go to any state.

01:03:54.510 --> 01:03:59.390
With that same program and in our black community and build any community because

01:03:59.390 --> 01:04:03.630
it's just about getting to trust each other, getting to know each other.

01:04:03.750 --> 01:04:06.690
So if we meeting up every Sunday for three hours, breaking bread,

01:04:07.170 --> 01:04:11.110
our kids is playing, we talking, we talking about issues, man,

01:04:11.330 --> 01:04:14.930
that's where the community moving forward starts with building trust.

01:04:15.090 --> 01:04:18.450
I know you now. I can trust you now. We can go into business now.

01:04:18.590 --> 01:04:21.930
We can start working together now. I can utilize your services now.

01:04:22.450 --> 01:04:25.410
And that's where we at with it. And I want to be able to move that state to

01:04:25.410 --> 01:04:26.610
state, hood to hood, you know?

01:04:27.430 --> 01:04:31.570
Yeah. And the term I always use is like ram in the bush, right?

01:04:32.170 --> 01:04:38.030
Because it's like, you know, why go outside of your community to get the resources

01:04:38.030 --> 01:04:43.830
you need when you have people capable providing those resources in the community, right?

01:04:44.490 --> 01:04:49.150
And I'm really, it doesn't matter what job I have you know what positions I've

01:04:49.150 --> 01:04:53.690
held or whatever that's that's always been even in my church you know it was

01:04:53.690 --> 01:04:59.330
like we had a school and I said so you keep getting all these people that.

01:05:00.250 --> 01:05:05.650
Never worked I mean that's never worked in a private school never worked and

01:05:05.650 --> 01:05:08.890
don't even go to the church and you trying to hire them to run the church school

01:05:08.890 --> 01:05:14.130
and you got you got you got educators as member of the church that you might

01:05:14.130 --> 01:05:18.470
need to utilize them and that's what we did you know, when I was responsible for it.

01:05:18.750 --> 01:05:23.570
So, you know, that's just me. And I think that's beautiful. I hate that.

01:05:24.595 --> 01:05:28.175
One, I want to take it as a good sign, though, because in the areas where you

01:05:28.175 --> 01:05:30.535
were working, crime was down.

01:05:31.055 --> 01:05:37.675
People were engaged. But I guess people that want to take advantage of misery didn't like that.

01:05:37.895 --> 01:05:41.575
So you had to you had to go to another area.

01:05:41.575 --> 01:05:48.535
But still, I'm hoping that that you still be able to have something going on

01:05:48.535 --> 01:05:51.435
in those particular particular areas, you know,

01:05:51.535 --> 01:05:57.195
that you that you laid the groundwork in and maybe hopefully encourage some

01:05:57.195 --> 01:06:01.275
of those people that went through the program or saw what it was about to maybe

01:06:01.275 --> 01:06:02.635
do their own thing over there.

01:06:02.635 --> 01:06:08.955
If folks are trying to stop you and your group, per se, from going in.

01:06:08.955 --> 01:06:12.075
And we'll actually still be in 68111.

01:06:12.255 --> 01:06:16.035
So it was it's still on 24th Street, which is the historical black business

01:06:16.035 --> 01:06:20.155
district. So we just moved down the street to a place called Assembly of the Saints.

01:06:20.355 --> 01:06:22.515
That's a church where the saints assemble.

01:06:22.735 --> 01:06:26.835
And this brother sat back quietly and he built like a community center church.

01:06:26.935 --> 01:06:32.535
So he got a podcast in there, a podcast room, video room. He has an art gallery in his church.

01:06:32.755 --> 01:06:38.055
He has a barbershop in his church. He has a room where we can donate diapers

01:06:38.055 --> 01:06:42.395
and stuff for the young women who got single women that need the extra clothing and diapers.

01:06:42.575 --> 01:06:45.535
He got a weight room in his church. We can go in there and lift weight.

01:06:45.895 --> 01:06:48.675
And he got a bistro in that church where you can just go in there,

01:06:48.855 --> 01:06:53.495
plug up your laptop, hang out, PS5s, Xboxes for the kids to come play.

01:06:53.715 --> 01:06:57.275
And it's a church, but it's the place where the saints assemble.

01:06:57.435 --> 01:07:00.175
And so that's where we'll be. and i'm so proud of

01:07:00.175 --> 01:07:03.195
that brother for sitting back quietly building that and he

01:07:03.195 --> 01:07:06.015
did it all with you know outside source money and

01:07:06.015 --> 01:07:11.055
can't nobody take it away from him so yeah yeah and now in the pictures that

01:07:11.055 --> 01:07:15.315
i've seen that that's the church that's got that big mural on the side of it

01:07:15.315 --> 01:07:21.255
yes sir that's the one yeah that's that's beautiful and that's that's that's

01:07:21.255 --> 01:07:25.715
encouraging that's that's good news So I want to, unfortunately,

01:07:25.915 --> 01:07:27.875
I need to pivot to some bad news, right?

01:07:28.415 --> 01:07:33.815
So talk to me about these brothers, Stephen Phipps and Cameron Ford.

01:07:34.115 --> 01:07:39.355
In your community, you know all about what's going on, but the rest of America doesn't know.

01:07:39.655 --> 01:07:45.735
So talk to the audience about what happened to these brothers and what you and

01:07:45.735 --> 01:07:48.135
others are trying to do to deal with that. Yeah.

01:07:48.595 --> 01:07:51.975
Yeah. So in North Omaha, we've had two murders within a month.

01:07:52.255 --> 01:07:55.755
One was Cameron Ford, who the police did a no knock search warrant,

01:07:55.915 --> 01:07:58.295
came in his house. He was in his boxers.

01:07:58.455 --> 01:08:01.855
He peeked around the corner to see what was going on and shot and killed that brother.

01:08:02.075 --> 01:08:05.395
They initially told us he shot him in the chest because he the police officer

01:08:05.395 --> 01:08:07.095
shot him in the chest because he charged at him.

01:08:07.435 --> 01:08:12.015
After we got the autopsy autopsy, we realized that he was shot under his armpit,

01:08:12.395 --> 01:08:15.975
which means he had his hands up and he came around the corner and was shot instantly

01:08:15.975 --> 01:08:17.055
in his underwear. there.

01:08:17.435 --> 01:08:21.355
That officer was fired, recommended to be terminated. But of course,

01:08:21.455 --> 01:08:23.555
the union is working on getting him his job back.

01:08:23.835 --> 01:08:28.195
The other brother was Stephen Phipps, young brother, had his registered firearm,

01:08:28.475 --> 01:08:30.575
had been harassed by two police officers.

01:08:30.835 --> 01:08:35.035
That day, they pulled him over and they just happened to be in the car together.

01:08:35.035 --> 01:08:40.155
But they had separate previous historical harassment against Stephen where they

01:08:40.155 --> 01:08:44.235
were following him around, pulling him over, giving him little minor tickets.

01:08:44.235 --> 01:08:48.235
So this day when he got pulled over, he realized it was both of them in the car.

01:08:48.375 --> 01:08:50.915
He took off running with his legal firearm.

01:08:51.195 --> 01:08:55.315
When he jumped the fence, the firearm fell. He had it in his hand because he

01:08:55.315 --> 01:08:59.075
was about to toss it. But then when he jumped the fence, it landed on the ground.

01:08:59.275 --> 01:09:03.275
And before he could even sit up or do anything, the officer shot him eight times

01:09:03.275 --> 01:09:07.835
on the ground while the firearm was above his head. But it had fell out of his hand.

01:09:08.075 --> 01:09:10.475
And he was begging the officer not to kill him.

01:09:11.200 --> 01:09:14.500
But he still shot him eight times on the ground. And Brother Phipps,

01:09:14.600 --> 01:09:17.260
when he did jump the fence, he said, OK, I give up. You got me.

01:09:17.620 --> 01:09:21.000
But it didn't matter that officer opened fire. And so the police,

01:09:21.140 --> 01:09:25.460
you know, you can't shoot somebody by law unless they're a threat to the community

01:09:25.460 --> 01:09:28.200
and they get in the way or they pose a threat to the officer.

01:09:28.360 --> 01:09:32.840
So what they used was while Brother Phipps was going over to Phipps and he had

01:09:32.840 --> 01:09:34.760
the gun in his hand, he was upside down.

01:09:34.880 --> 01:09:38.000
And they said the gun pointed at the officer during that brief second.

01:09:38.000 --> 01:09:45.000
And that was enough justifying cause for them to shoot fifth eight times on the ground.

01:09:45.920 --> 01:09:48.940
So like he in the matrix yeah so

01:09:48.940 --> 01:09:52.300
it's like so the body cam footage showed that

01:09:52.300 --> 01:09:55.800
he had dropped a gun and and and

01:09:55.800 --> 01:09:58.840
that he was surrendering and the officers still shot

01:09:58.840 --> 01:10:01.920
him anyway yeah to the public though

01:10:01.920 --> 01:10:04.800
they're only showing the transit video which is

01:10:04.800 --> 01:10:07.520
no sound and you can't link the sound up with the

01:10:07.520 --> 01:10:10.920
body cam footage they showed the body cam footage to the family but

01:10:10.920 --> 01:10:14.040
what the public is seeing is just transit video with no sound

01:10:14.040 --> 01:10:16.760
and initially the police told us they shot him while he

01:10:16.760 --> 01:10:19.580
was going over the fence but once we seen the

01:10:19.580 --> 01:10:22.480
body cam footage we realized he was shot on the ground

01:10:22.480 --> 01:10:25.280
after he had went over the fence and the gun was no longer in

01:10:25.280 --> 01:10:28.900
his hand yeah eight times up the ground yeah so

01:10:28.900 --> 01:10:31.820
what's the situation with those officers they still have

01:10:31.820 --> 01:10:35.100
their job well only one officer fired the

01:10:35.100 --> 01:10:38.080
other officer never even opened fire the one officer that

01:10:38.080 --> 01:10:41.200
did fire had multiple complaints from people

01:10:41.200 --> 01:10:45.640
in the community of his harassment and but he's not being fired and not being

01:10:45.640 --> 01:10:51.700
charged so what is what's going to be the plan of action i know that you work

01:10:51.700 --> 01:10:58.240
a lot with the local naacp there and other groups what what what is the the

01:10:58.240 --> 01:11:00.360
next steps as far as getting...

01:11:01.838 --> 01:11:07.198
Some kind of justice. Is there any talk about these officers in both of these

01:11:07.198 --> 01:11:12.278
shootings going to jail or going to trial or where we're at with that?

01:11:12.458 --> 01:11:14.578
Here in Nebraska, we got grand jury.

01:11:15.058 --> 01:11:20.798
So, but the problem is our county attorney has already deemed both shootings justifiable.

01:11:21.058 --> 01:11:27.218
It was the chief that fired Officer Vell in the first shooting after the county

01:11:27.218 --> 01:11:29.018
attorney said he wasn't going to press charges.

01:11:29.198 --> 01:11:32.718
So that grand jury hasn't taken place yet. And then with Mr.

01:11:32.838 --> 01:11:36.138
Phipps, he's off course, he came out and said he wasn't charging him either.

01:11:36.278 --> 01:11:40.018
And the police chief said he's not firing this guy either. So it's still he

01:11:40.018 --> 01:11:41.698
on desk duty until the grand jury.

01:11:41.858 --> 01:11:44.698
But the problem is, you know, the attorney, the county attorney,

01:11:44.858 --> 01:11:46.598
the one who present the case to the grand jury.

01:11:46.798 --> 01:11:52.098
So it's already tainted and he's refusing to appoint a special prosecutor to

01:11:52.098 --> 01:11:56.898
look at the case outside of himself because he's already made his decision and his bias.

01:11:57.118 --> 01:11:59.878
He's another one of them flip-floppers that used to be Democrat.

01:11:59.878 --> 01:12:06.258
Now he's a Republican, but he's refusing to acknowledge the fact that both of

01:12:06.258 --> 01:12:08.198
those officers shot unarmed black men.

01:12:08.418 --> 01:12:14.018
But in his eyes, like he said with Cameron, it was justified because he was

01:12:14.018 --> 01:12:18.178
a known gang member or a threat, even though he didn't have his gun in his hand.

01:12:18.278 --> 01:12:21.378
And with Mr. Phipps, that split second while he was upside

01:12:21.378 --> 01:12:24.318
down on the fence was a threat

01:12:24.318 --> 01:12:26.978
to the officer and the officer was justified in shooting and

01:12:26.978 --> 01:12:31.738
killing him yeah well hopefully you

01:12:31.738 --> 01:12:38.018
know we can we can try to get some more attention to this i don't have any faith

01:12:38.018 --> 01:12:43.538
because in minnesota you know the state attorney general governor the governor

01:12:43.538 --> 01:12:49.258
got the state attorney general to be the special prosecutor in the in the george floyd case.

01:12:50.438 --> 01:12:53.338
Considering that that attorney general was trying not to allow

01:12:53.338 --> 01:12:56.338
people to vote i don't expect y'all the attorney general to

01:12:56.338 --> 01:12:59.638
or maybe governor to be that that

01:12:59.638 --> 01:13:02.618
progressive but hopefully if if

01:13:02.618 --> 01:13:06.598
you can we can continue to put some national light

01:13:06.598 --> 01:13:09.438
on it that you know you might get some

01:13:09.438 --> 01:13:12.878
support and might get some help in in

01:13:12.878 --> 01:13:16.238
injustice for those two brothers because you know

01:13:16.238 --> 01:13:19.498
it's just it hits me a little harder brother

01:13:19.498 --> 01:13:22.238
wells because i i've i have a law

01:13:22.238 --> 01:13:25.538
enforcement background and so you know

01:13:25.538 --> 01:13:29.258
in in the training we're taught about use

01:13:29.258 --> 01:13:35.318
of force we're taught about cases supreme court cases that limit what we can

01:13:35.318 --> 01:13:40.758
and can't do and you know the the case in tennessee is the one that applies

01:13:40.758 --> 01:13:46.438
in the case with stephen it's like you know you're not supposed to shoot.

01:13:47.498 --> 01:13:51.998
In pursuit. It has to be a clear and present danger.

01:13:52.478 --> 01:13:57.058
You know, like the reason why those brothers in Atlanta, those officers got

01:13:57.058 --> 01:14:00.938
off was because Rashard Brooks physically turned.

01:14:01.118 --> 01:14:05.658
Now, even though he had a taser, he physically turned and pointed that at one

01:14:05.658 --> 01:14:10.418
of the officers. And so that way it was clear you could see that, right?

01:14:10.618 --> 01:14:14.298
It's not that it's great that it happened, but we

01:14:14.298 --> 01:14:17.618
under you know under the letter of the law in the

01:14:17.618 --> 01:14:20.398
case with steven now unless

01:14:20.398 --> 01:14:23.898
he was some kind of superhero or whatever there was

01:14:23.898 --> 01:14:27.398
no way that he could pose a threat you

01:14:27.398 --> 01:14:33.058
know with the gun it's almost it was almost like a fumble situation right you

01:14:33.058 --> 01:14:38.458
got the ball but in the motion of falling you lose the ball and so you know

01:14:38.458 --> 01:14:42.738
you you can't advance it right it's the same thing if you got the weapon you

01:14:42.738 --> 01:14:45.438
losing control of the weapon, you're not a threat at that point.

01:14:45.578 --> 01:14:50.438
If anything, you're trying to get to that person before they can retrieve the weapon.

01:14:51.298 --> 01:14:55.998
And, you know, I mean, that's the way we were trained. So for those officers

01:14:55.998 --> 01:14:58.618
to shoot them, you know, I think that's excessive.

01:14:58.718 --> 01:15:04.798
But again, I'm not, you know, I'm not an attorney, so I can't do anything about that.

01:15:04.918 --> 01:15:10.258
But I'm hoping that with this platform, we can lift up Stephen Phipps and Cameron

01:15:10.258 --> 01:15:19.918
Ford's names and bring some national attention to what's going on in Nebraska. So let me ask you this.

01:15:21.258 --> 01:15:24.378
And then we'll kind of close it out, but.

01:15:26.090 --> 01:15:29.050
Well, I was going to ask some, but I guess I'll just.

01:15:30.090 --> 01:15:33.590
Can I ask him real quick? Go ahead. So Mr.

01:15:33.730 --> 01:15:39.070
Ford was his family was able to get Ben Crump as a lawyer for his case. OK, good.

01:15:39.770 --> 01:15:43.970
Yeah. So that that he already sent a representative here to meet with the family.

01:15:44.030 --> 01:15:47.970
And then also with Stephen Phipps, he was able to get Mr.

01:15:48.130 --> 01:15:50.630
Cannon, who represented Sandra Bland family.

01:15:50.850 --> 01:15:54.710
OK, we did get two lawyers to take their cases. And then, like you said,

01:15:54.790 --> 01:15:59.390
it was kind of personal for me because in Minnesota, I did have a young cousin,

01:15:59.570 --> 01:16:01.390
my cousin, Karen Wells, shout out to her.

01:16:01.670 --> 01:16:07.050
Her son, my cousin, Amir Locke, was killed on the couch when he was sleeping in 2022.

01:16:07.650 --> 01:16:12.250
And they came and served a search warrant for him, for somebody else, I mean, not him.

01:16:12.510 --> 01:16:15.510
And he just happened to be on the couch with his illegal gun and he never pointed

01:16:15.510 --> 01:16:19.890
it up. But just the fact that he had it in his hand, he was shot before he could get the cover off.

01:16:20.050 --> 01:16:23.930
And we've been going through that so much. this really touched home.

01:16:24.130 --> 01:16:26.850
And then I don't know if you know the history of North Omaha.

01:16:27.090 --> 01:16:31.090
Well, the reason why we don't have a business district and it was tore up was

01:16:31.090 --> 01:16:35.150
because Vivian Strong, when she was 14, she's my cousin, seven years before

01:16:35.150 --> 01:16:40.050
I was born, she got shot in the back of the head by an Omaha police officer and she was killed.

01:16:40.370 --> 01:16:43.150
And the officer got charged, but was acquitted of manslaughter.

01:16:43.290 --> 01:16:47.510
And they never gave us a reason why he was allowed to shoot a girl in the back

01:16:47.510 --> 01:16:49.670
of the head that was 14 running from the police.

01:16:50.150 --> 01:16:54.730
So 53 years apart with two of my cousins and still the same result. No charges.

01:16:54.990 --> 01:16:58.150
The police get to come back to the community and where Vivian,

01:16:58.230 --> 01:17:03.130
not only did he get to get back on a police force, but he came back to North Omaha and patrol. So.

01:17:03.954 --> 01:17:07.034
Just like did things really change or

01:17:07.034 --> 01:17:09.814
not you know man with cameron and

01:17:09.814 --> 01:17:12.794
steven happening all over again it just reopens those wounds

01:17:12.794 --> 01:17:16.194
and it makes it personal that we have to look

01:17:16.194 --> 01:17:19.574
at the way policing is done in america because the

01:17:19.574 --> 01:17:25.114
restraint is taught and is definitely used with with the our other white brothers

01:17:25.114 --> 01:17:29.814
and sisters but with us there is excessive force right away there's no restraint

01:17:29.814 --> 01:17:34.854
there's no de-escalation done you know yeah and that That kind of I guess that

01:17:34.854 --> 01:17:38.594
was the question I was going to try to ask was what was the history?

01:17:38.814 --> 01:17:45.114
So I'm glad you brought that up. I hate that that kind of tragedy has touched your family twice,

01:17:45.954 --> 01:17:54.554
you know, but you are doing something to try to get young people out of that

01:17:54.554 --> 01:17:58.934
situation and trying to uplift the community as well.

01:17:59.874 --> 01:18:03.854
And that's why i wanted to highlight you brother because you know when when

01:18:03.854 --> 01:18:10.214
when people like you come across my timeline with this platform i have i want

01:18:10.214 --> 01:18:12.314
to uplift them and show because.

01:18:13.334 --> 01:18:16.994
You know when people always talk about what's going on in communities right,

01:18:18.014 --> 01:18:21.054
you know we talk about atlanta we talk about chicago

01:18:21.054 --> 01:18:23.914
we talk about new york we talk about la you know the big

01:18:23.914 --> 01:18:26.714
cities and you know and every now and then

01:18:26.714 --> 01:18:29.814
they might mention jackson mississippi or st louis missouri

01:18:29.814 --> 01:18:33.134
or something like that but in politics they

01:18:33.134 --> 01:18:36.734
call your state flyover country right

01:18:36.734 --> 01:18:42.594
and and and and as far as the black community is concerned outside the fact

01:18:42.594 --> 01:18:46.774
that people say oh malcolm x was born there they really don't have they don't

01:18:46.774 --> 01:18:50.894
talk about that because you know they don't talk about what goes on in the midwest

01:18:50.894 --> 01:18:54.414
and nebraska and oklahoma and kansas and those kind of things,

01:18:54.994 --> 01:19:00.694
even though there's incredible activism and incredible history as far as the

01:19:00.694 --> 01:19:04.034
black community goes in that part of the country.

01:19:04.534 --> 01:19:08.994
And so that was the other reason I wanted to make sure that.

01:19:10.391 --> 01:19:15.671
You know, I wanted to get you on to remind people that wherever we are,

01:19:16.031 --> 01:19:21.311
there is in this country, there is a struggle and there are people trying to

01:19:21.311 --> 01:19:22.791
help us deal with that struggle.

01:19:23.171 --> 01:19:31.671
So, well, I am really, really glad that you took the time to come on and I greatly

01:19:31.671 --> 01:19:33.351
appreciate you doing that.

01:19:33.851 --> 01:19:36.651
Yeah thank you for even reaching out and like i said you

01:19:36.651 --> 01:19:39.371
know i i know i said little old me because you know

01:19:39.371 --> 01:19:42.671
like you said oh nebraska's overlooked a lot and it

01:19:42.671 --> 01:19:45.651
did take a lot for us to even get the state to recognize malcolm being

01:19:45.651 --> 01:19:48.331
born here so we just got him inducted into the

01:19:48.331 --> 01:19:51.571
hall of fame this year so yeah man i appreciate you

01:19:51.571 --> 01:19:54.271
and your platform mr fleming man you just don't know how

01:19:54.271 --> 01:19:57.131
much it mean to me that you reached out i get to talk

01:19:57.131 --> 01:20:00.231
to or people get to hear from me that's not in nebraska

01:20:00.231 --> 01:20:03.351
and uh in omaha and man i appreciate you

01:20:03.351 --> 01:20:06.251
allowing me on your platform brother forever all right so if

01:20:06.251 --> 01:20:09.231
people want to get in touch with what you're doing because you've got you've got

01:20:09.231 --> 01:20:12.451
some merchandise and stuff too so kind of

01:20:12.451 --> 01:20:17.191
give your plug if people want to get involved with what you're doing and and

01:20:17.191 --> 01:20:20.771
buy some merchandise and all that stuff go ahead and tell people how they can

01:20:20.771 --> 01:20:26.591
do that you can contact me through multiple platforms sherman wells on instagram

01:20:26.591 --> 01:20:31.051
Sherman Wells on X and Sherman Wells on Facebook.

01:20:31.291 --> 01:20:35.791
We have an untamed page on Facebook and, and also on LinkedIn.

01:20:35.791 --> 01:20:38.851
I have Sherman Wells on LinkedIn and Sherman Wells on YouTube.

01:20:38.951 --> 01:20:42.631
If you want to buy some merchandise, we have the I'm from the hood street,

01:20:42.831 --> 01:20:45.751
where we talking about motherhood, fatherhood, sisterhood, brotherhood.

01:20:45.871 --> 01:20:49.831
And it's before it took a village. Now it takes a hood and you can go to I'm

01:20:49.831 --> 01:20:52.351
from the hood.com to order that, that merchandise.

01:20:52.971 --> 01:20:55.791
All right, Sherman Wells. Thank you, brother. I appreciate it.

01:20:55.891 --> 01:20:59.191
Much, much success on all the endeavors that you're doing.

01:20:59.391 --> 01:21:01.611
And, and, and, uh, you have an

01:21:01.611 --> 01:21:05.191
open invitation on this show to come back anytime something on your mind.

01:21:05.711 --> 01:21:07.571
Just let me know and we'll make that happen.

01:21:08.111 --> 01:21:12.051
Yes, sir. I appreciate you brother. All right, guys. And we'll catch y'all on the other side.

01:21:12.720 --> 01:21:23.120
Music.

01:21:24.183 --> 01:21:29.863
All right. And we are back. So I want to thank Kevin Smith, Professor Kevin

01:21:29.863 --> 01:21:35.123
Smith and Sherman Wells for coming on the show.

01:21:35.123 --> 01:21:42.443
So please go out and get The Jailer's Reckoning by Professor Smith when it's available.

01:21:43.423 --> 01:21:48.163
It's a very it's a short read, but it's very, very power packed and very,

01:21:48.323 --> 01:21:58.383
very informational as far as educating people on the prison system in the United States.

01:21:59.023 --> 01:22:04.743
As you know, I had Robin Bernstein on talking about Freeman with her book Freeman's Challenge.

01:22:05.003 --> 01:22:10.983
And I even recommended that book to Professor Smith because he mentioned Auburn

01:22:10.983 --> 01:22:12.783
prison in his in his book.

01:22:13.763 --> 01:22:19.963
And so he said he's going to try to read it. So, Robin, at least there's one more book sale you got.

01:22:20.983 --> 01:22:24.783
But, yeah, I mean, those are the type of issues that we want to cover.

01:22:24.783 --> 01:22:32.583
And any people, academics, that address a lot of the issues that we need to

01:22:32.583 --> 01:22:38.683
deal with as a society, you know, it's good to highlight them.

01:22:38.763 --> 01:22:40.843
And that's what we'll continue to do on the podcast.

01:22:41.323 --> 01:22:47.483
And then Brother Wells, with his work in Omaha, you know, it's like,

01:22:48.043 --> 01:22:54.963
you know, a lot of where we are, Wherever we are in the United States,

01:22:55.023 --> 01:22:56.303
there's always a struggle.

01:22:56.723 --> 01:23:01.083
It's not just in the big major urban centers in the United States.

01:23:01.723 --> 01:23:03.423
It's anywhere we are gathered.

01:23:04.923 --> 01:23:08.903
And, you know, and that's one of the things I wanted to highlight having him

01:23:08.903 --> 01:23:14.143
on and just highlight the fact that here's a brother has got his family involved

01:23:14.143 --> 01:23:17.783
in doing work in the community, which is something that all of us can do.

01:23:19.083 --> 01:23:20.883
We don't have to have an organization.

01:23:22.223 --> 01:23:29.263
Excuse me, we don't have to have, you know, a title or anything, but we can be involved.

01:23:30.123 --> 01:23:35.063
And one thing I didn't mention, because I didn't want to make the brother blush,

01:23:35.223 --> 01:23:41.843
but he has been awarded the Omaha NAACP Freedom Fighter Award for this year.

01:23:42.523 --> 01:23:45.343
And so congratulations to Brother Wells on that.

01:23:46.363 --> 01:23:51.023
And go out and support them and, you know, do what you can.

01:23:51.743 --> 01:23:56.943
And really, in any community that you live in, you know, support folks that

01:23:56.943 --> 01:24:00.143
are doing the work to try to make our communities better.

01:24:01.183 --> 01:24:05.263
So I would kind of close out on that.

01:24:05.483 --> 01:24:12.423
But, you know, it's just a lot of stuff going on. And as we get closer and closer to the election.

01:24:14.190 --> 01:24:23.290
You know, I'm watching the acts of desperation and watching the vitriol getting ratcheted up.

01:24:24.490 --> 01:24:30.010
And I'm watching, you know, people, how people are responding and how the media

01:24:30.010 --> 01:24:31.790
is responding and all that stuff.

01:24:32.850 --> 01:24:36.770
All I want people to do is to go out and vote. You know,

01:24:36.950 --> 01:24:44.490
I think it's a shame that there is a mindset that the best way to maintain power

01:24:44.490 --> 01:24:48.990
is to make it harder for people to exercise their right.

01:24:49.950 --> 01:24:56.470
But it's just a reminder that your vote is powerful.

01:24:56.790 --> 01:25:02.770
Let me say that again. Your vote is powerful. If it wasn't powerful,

01:25:03.070 --> 01:25:06.390
people wouldn't be trying to discourage you from use it, using it.

01:25:06.690 --> 01:25:10.110
People wouldn't be doing things to prevent you from using it.

01:25:10.430 --> 01:25:15.010
People wouldn't be doing things to try to deny you access to it.

01:25:15.870 --> 01:25:26.750
So I really want you all to understand that and believe that that vote that you have is powerful.

01:25:28.650 --> 01:25:35.130
I have a preference. of who I want to vote for. It is no secret about that.

01:25:36.510 --> 01:25:40.250
But if you don't agree with my preference, I need you to vote.

01:25:41.090 --> 01:25:46.170
If you think that the system is not working well, I need you to vote.

01:25:47.070 --> 01:25:52.210
If you are concerned that a lot of times your voice is not heard, guess what?

01:25:52.670 --> 01:25:55.470
Your voice will be heard if you vote.

01:25:56.710 --> 01:26:01.610
Presidential elections in my lifetime And even just before I was born had been

01:26:01.610 --> 01:26:06.570
decided by literally a few thousand votes.

01:26:07.910 --> 01:26:15.530
And I would just encourage everybody, you know, regardless of what motivates

01:26:15.530 --> 01:26:18.730
you to vote, that you do it.

01:26:20.753 --> 01:26:25.213
Especially in the African-American and the black community, I really,

01:26:25.393 --> 01:26:27.113
really want you all to participate.

01:26:28.233 --> 01:26:35.333
You know, if you weren't important, then candidates wouldn't be talking about what their agenda is.

01:26:35.433 --> 01:26:38.953
You wouldn't have candidates saying how much they love us, right?

01:26:39.433 --> 01:26:44.133
You wouldn't have people trying to influence us one way or the other,

01:26:45.153 --> 01:26:48.713
admonish us even, right? Your vote is important.

01:26:49.953 --> 01:26:55.713
And some of you understand majority of you that listen to this podcast understand,

01:26:55.713 --> 01:26:58.233
but there are some folks that are younger that may not.

01:26:58.373 --> 01:27:01.913
And literally people did die for this opportunity.

01:27:02.553 --> 01:27:08.473
People literally fought and are still fighting for the right for us to vote.

01:27:09.733 --> 01:27:14.693
And so, you know, it's not like driving a car. It's not a privilege.

01:27:15.173 --> 01:27:17.673
It's a right as a citizen.

01:27:18.713 --> 01:27:25.373
So I really, really want you all to understand that it's vitally important that

01:27:25.373 --> 01:27:27.373
you participate and not just vote for president.

01:27:28.033 --> 01:27:31.973
Right. Because in some states, you'll be determining who sits in the U.S. Senate.

01:27:32.833 --> 01:27:35.893
In all states, you'll be determining who sits in Congress.

01:27:36.653 --> 01:27:41.493
You vote for judges. You vote for trustees of the school board.

01:27:41.593 --> 01:27:43.813
You've heard me give this speech before. Right.

01:27:44.653 --> 01:27:48.333
Pay attention to everything on that ballot when you get there.

01:27:48.333 --> 01:27:51.213
If you have questions about what's going to be on the ballot,

01:27:51.513 --> 01:27:53.373
go to your local state resource.

01:27:54.033 --> 01:27:57.593
Most of the time it's going to be your secretary of state, if not any kind of

01:27:57.593 --> 01:28:02.213
election resource that you can pull up and find out what's going to be on your ballot.

01:28:02.873 --> 01:28:08.913
There are even some apps that you can download and it'll you put in your address

01:28:08.913 --> 01:28:11.253
and it'll tell you what's going to be on your ballot.

01:28:12.593 --> 01:28:18.793
Educate yourself. Make a plan, whether that's when you're going to go or when

01:28:18.793 --> 01:28:23.893
you're going to be able to bring some of your friends so they can vote to family members, whatever.

01:28:24.813 --> 01:28:34.173
And then execute that plan by voting. It is the equalizer as far as elections go. Bottom line.

01:28:36.493 --> 01:28:40.933
So I just wanted to say that there are some other things on my mind,

01:28:41.033 --> 01:28:42.633
but I'm not going to keep you along today.

01:28:43.993 --> 01:28:49.633
I just want to continue to stress as we get into the closing days of this election

01:28:49.633 --> 01:28:54.333
that your vote is your voice. So exercise.

01:28:55.233 --> 01:28:57.833
Thank you for listening until next time.

01:28:58.480 --> 01:29:46.088
Music.