Us, After & World Afro Day Featuring Rachel Zimmerman and Michelle De Leon

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Welcome. I'm Eric Fleming, host of A Moment with Eric Fleming, the podcast of our time.

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I want to personally thank you for listening to the podcast.

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If you like what you're hearing, then I need you to do a few things.

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First, I need subscribers.

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I'm on Patreon at patreon.com slash amomentwithericfleming.

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Your subscription allows an independent podcaster like me the the freedom to

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speak truth to power, and to expand and improve the show.

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Second, leave a five-star review for the podcast on the streaming service you

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listen to it. That will help the podcast tremendously.

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Third, go to the website momenteric.com. There you can subscribe to the podcast,

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leave reviews and comments, listen to past episodes, and even learn a little bit about your host.

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Tell someone else about the podcast.

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Encourage others to listen to the podcast and share the podcast on your social media platforms.

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Because it is time to make this moment a movement.

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Thanks in advance for supporting the podcast of our time. I hope you enjoy this episode as well.

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The following program is hosted by the NVG Podcast Network.

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Music.

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Hello, and welcome to another moment with Eric Fleming. I am your host, Eric Fleming.

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And if you didn't notice, at the very beginning of the podcast,

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something new has been added.

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So it is my privilege to announce that this episode is the first episode for

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a moment with Eric Fleming to be on the NBG Podcast Network.

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It has really been an honor and a privilege to be invited to join.

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And I want to thank Leonard Young for making that happen.

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MBG is a Black-owned, Black-operated podcast network.

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And so I look forward to a long relationship.

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And, you know, this podcast has come a long way from just me recording my Uber rants.

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And now to actually be on an actual podcast network was a major, major accomplishment.

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The other housekeeping note I wanted to mention is that we did not win this

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year for Best News and Political Podcast,

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but I want to thank the Black Podcasting Awards for nominating A Moment with

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Eric Fleming for the second time in our five-year journey.

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And I want to congratulate Rashad Ritchie.

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Who did win and you need to check his podcast out it's called indisputable,

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and rashad's got so many titles he's got a lot of grades a phd he's got all

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sorts of stuff going on so i just call him brother rashad and,

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and i have respected that brother from afar we met maybe once but congratulations

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to him and And congratulations to all the winners of the Black Pod Awards this year.

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Please check out their website to see who won. Please check out and see who was nominated.

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And make sure that you follow or listen to those podcasts that had the same

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distinction in me of being nominated because it's an honor to be recognized for the work that you do.

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And you know i'm going to continue to keep doing what i'm doing and i hope that

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the other content creators keep doing what they're doing and encourage y'all to always listen to us,

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so now that i got that out the way let me just say that this episode is going

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to be special because i'm going to be dealing with a couple of subjects one

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is going to be kind of heavy and one is not as heavy, but very important.

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And really was honored to have these ladies come on to talk about their particular subjects.

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And I can't wait for y'all to hear those interviews.

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So let's go ahead and kick this off with a moment of news with Grace G.

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Music.

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Thanks, Eric. Marcellus Williams was executed by lethal injection in Missouri

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after the U.S. Supreme Court denied his appeal, despite claims of new evidence

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regarding jury bias and the murder weapons contamination.

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The U.S. Congress passed a stopgap bill to prevent a government shutdown,

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ensuring funding through December 20th.

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New York City Mayor Eric Adams has been indicted in a federal corruption investigation.

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Donald Trump declined to take part in another debate with Vice President Kamala

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Harris, citing the late timing as voters have already begun casting ballots in three states.

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Georgia's election board voted for a hand count of ballots for the upcoming

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election, a decision criticized by voting rights advocates.

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A Republican proposal to switch Nebraska's electoral college votes to a winner-takes-all

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system, failed to receive the unanimous Republican support needed to pass.

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Several aides to North Carolina's Republican gubernatorial candidate Mark Robinson

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resigned, following controversial comments attributed to him.

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A judge upheld the acceptance of digital university IDs for voting in North

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Carolina, allowing college students to participate in the upcoming election.

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The U.S. Supreme Court upheld a ruling that keeps the Green Party off the Nevada ballot.

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U.S. Army Private Travis King was sentenced to one year of confinement for several

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offenses, including desertion after fleeing to North Korea.

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Families of six workers who died in the Francis Scott Key Bridge collapse filed

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lawsuits against the cargo ship's owner and operator.

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The FBI reported a 3% decline in violent crime in the U.S. last year,

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alongside an increase in hate crimes.

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And a Joint Center report reveals that the U.S. public workforce system may

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be reinforcing racial disparities for Black Americans by channeling them into low-paying jobs.

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I am Grace G., and this has been a moment.

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Music.

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All right. Thank you, Grace, for that moment of news.

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And now it is time for my guest, Rachel Zimmerman.

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Rachel Zimmerman, an award-winning journalist, has written about health and

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medicine for more than two decades.

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She is a contributor to The Washington Post and previously worked as a staff

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writer for The Wall Street Journal and a health reporter for WBUR,

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Boston's public radio station.

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Where she co-founded a popular blog and podcast.

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Her essays and reporting have been published in the New York Times,

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Vogue.com, New York Magazine's The Cut, Old, The Oprah Magazine,

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The Atlantic, Slate, and The Huffington Post, among others.

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She received an M.S. from Columbia University Graduate School of Journalism

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and a B.A. from Sarah Lawrence College.

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She lives with her family in Cambridge, Massachusetts, and is the author of

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the book, the new book, Us After, A Memoir of Love and Suicide.

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And this is the book we're going to discuss in the interview.

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Now, the subject matter of this interview may be disturbing.

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If you are having thoughts of suicide, please reach out for help.

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Call or text 988 for the Suicide Crisis Lifeline or go to www.speakingofsuicide.com

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forward slash resources for any additional resources you may need.

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Ladies and gentlemen, it is my distinct honor and privilege to have as a guest

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on this podcast, Rachel Zimmerman.

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Music.

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All right. Rachel Zimmerman. How are you doing, ma'am? You doing good?

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I'm doing okay today. How are you doing, Eric?

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The same. I'm doing good. I'm doing okay. You know, I really appreciate you coming on.

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But even more so, I really appreciate this book that you've written called Us

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After, after a memoir of love and suicide.

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And in the questioning, I'll kind of get into the personal aspect of it, but.

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I'll just say this to editorialize a little bit.

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I'm really, really proud and honored that you summoned the courage to do this.

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I know this was like a 10-year effort from what I've read in the book. That's right.

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And so I greatly appreciate that you summoned the courage to do that.

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So let's go ahead and get started.

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What I normally do with guests is that I throw a quote at them and then have them respond. bond.

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So your quote is, at the end of my suffering, there was a door.

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What does that quote mean to you?

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Well, that's a quote I've included in the book, and it's the poet Louise Gluck

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from her poem, The Wild Iris.

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And to me, you know, what I've learned from doing all the reporting from this

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book and talking to other people doing book events is so many people have trauma

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and loss, Right. So many people have suffering.

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It's the human condition if you're an adult, basically.

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And so my feeling is when you're in the acute moment of grief and suffering,

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you feel like there's no way out.

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And yet, for many people, a door opens and you evolve and life goes on and you

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don't imagine that to happen.

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And I think that's, you know, that's what that quote means to me,

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that you are forced against your will.

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I mean, nobody asks for these kind of destructive, devastating life events, right?

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But they happen to most of us, if not all of us.

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And you have a choice to go on or not.

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And you most of the time have to pivot and take care of your kids and take care

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of your daily demands. And so that's the door that opens.

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And a lot of this book, we'll get into it, but sort of a motivating factor was

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sort of finding the good in what remains.

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And so that quote speaks to that concept.

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So I normally when I interview authors, I don't quote passages,

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total passages from the book.

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But for my first couple of questions, because the way the book starts, I want to read that.

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Because it really, really hit me, you know, it's like good literature is like

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the opening is what's supposed to be the hook. Right.

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And so. So let me read this. If I were writing a news story, I'd start like this.

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On July 1st, 2014, Seth Teller, MIT professor and father to Parkers Crimson

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Honda Insight on the Tobin Bridge,

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three miles from his home in Cambridge, Massachusetts, and jumped to his death. He was 50.

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But this is not that story. This is the story of what happened after.

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So my two questions. My first question is, you were married to Seth for 12 years.

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That's right. Right. And I guess you you dated for three years because a lot

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of times you refer to 15 years when you were talking.

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Talk to me about him. I know he was like a super smart individual and and he

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had these incredible projects that he's working on.

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But just talk to me about Seth, the husband.

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Right. Well, I appreciate you reading that opening, Eric. So Seth was a devoted

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father of our two daughters who were 8 and 11 years old when he died.

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As you mentioned, he was a tenured professor of robotics at MIT,

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deeply connected with his students.

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His parents were very close with him. Two brothers, again, very close. An extended family.

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So in other words, a very robust social network. work.

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He was involved in like the Neighborhood Association, you know,

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the turf fields where he played ultimate frisbee.

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And he was somebody who if you just saw him, you'd see this like cool,

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laid back, brilliant guy.

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He wore shorts all the time. He often taught classes in shorts.

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And, And, you know, he would carry, he actually had a bottle of bubble mix that

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he kept in the back of his car with a big wand.

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And so if he'd run into a group of kids, he'd just take the bubble mix out and

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start making bubbles for the kids.

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So he was just like this very fun-loving but brilliant, like he'd stay up all

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night looking at the stars and coming up with big ideas.

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But he also was very hard on himself in terms of his expectations of himself.

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And a friend of mine who recently read the book said it was almost like Seth

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had a Ph.D. in carnating.

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And I think he was a perfectionist and he operated on a very high level.

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And I think, you know, he never was diagnosed with any kind of severe mental illness.

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But in my investigation and reporting, you know, he either had,

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I mean, obviously had undiagnosed deep depression and he may have even had bipolar.

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Bipolar there was some bipolar in his family but again

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never diagnosed and I think

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what happened was there was

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a lot of stress in his life he was involved in a

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you know international robotics competition and he had just turned 50 so that

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was on his mind you know many men are kind of like what have I accomplished

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like the sort of midlife situation he had some chronic pain so he wasn't unable to exercise.

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His sleep had deteriorated near the end. And he had something called tinnitus,

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which is a ringing in the ear that is fairly common and usually low level.

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And it never bothered him, but it escalated. And none of those things on their

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own pointed to an emergency.

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But I think for him, these sort of maybe on their own minor intrusions coalesced

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at the same time and escalated.

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And because he'd never been in any kind of long-term therapy or ever really

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asked for help about any kind of mental health situation, he didn't have the tools to deal with that.

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And so, you know, what I tell my kids, he had an illness in his brain that was undiagnosed.

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And the consequence of that illness turned out to be self-harm and ultimately, sadly, his death.

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Yeah, because that leads to, well, that's another question I'm going to ask

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dealing with your daughters.

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But the other question based on the opening was, how did your background as

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being a journalist help you get through this moment?

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Right. Well, I would say it both helped and hindered me in these respects.

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So I had been a journalist, mostly a health care journalist for over 20 years,

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worked at the Wall Street Journal, worked in public radio.

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And so my belief system based on a lot of that, my work was that,

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you know, you dig deeply,

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you know, you talk to as many people as you can about a complicated topic and

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you you emerge with some clarity. Right.

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And you think you can have enough

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of an answer to write a story that leads readers to some kind of clarity.

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So I thought I could do that with Seth. Like, so I just started interviewing

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suicide researchers and doctors and people who knew him in different aspects of his life.

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Life and, you know, I found someone who actually jumped off the same bridge and survived.

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And I thought, okay, he'll give me some insight.

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And at the end of, I mean, I did this for years, this sort of obsessive digging.

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And honestly, it helped me focus. It was a good distraction.

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But at the end of the day, it didn't provide this aha moment about why,

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nor did it provide an aha moment about what had I missed.

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Like, of course as a survivor of someone, you know, you love who dies by suicide,

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you of course think, how could I have stopped this? What did I miss?

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That's sort of a human response to that sort of thing.

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And I came to the understanding that, again, an illness in his brain,

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when you are in that suicidal mindset, you are not thinking about anything else.

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You're not thinking about your kids, your marriage, your work.

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You're just thinking about the psychic pain you're in and how do you end it.

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And then there's a kind of tunnel vision.

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So, you know, I did come to some clarity in terms of an understanding a bit

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about what he was going through. But I think like unless you have been there,

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it's very hard to wrap your brain around suicide, right?

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It's like the very antithesis of everything that is a human impulse, which is to survive.

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And so there's still an unknowingness about, you know, how he died,

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which I think never goes away.

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But you kind of have to learn to live with the unknown and decide to pivot to

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like focus on what you can control and manage,

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which was, you know, reconnecting with some level of joy and pleasure and making

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sure my kids could do that as well.

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Yeah. So talking about your children, you mentioned them at the beginning.

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They're basically grown now, but they were eight and 11 when this happened.

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And there was one particular passage where you talked about his love for flying, right?

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That he always wanted to fly.

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And there was a moment when you were talking to your daughters.

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I don't know which one. Was it Julia or I forget the other one's name.

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Sophia. Sophia, yeah. Right. And it was like it was one of them where you were

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explaining that maybe at that moment he felt that he was flying.

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Kind of talk about how difficult that was, because it took it was it was if

00:20:45.550 --> 00:20:47.590
you read the book, it takes.

00:20:48.730 --> 00:20:53.450
It's almost like every year it's like you start another chapter and explaining

00:20:53.450 --> 00:20:55.010
to your children what happened.

00:20:55.010 --> 00:21:00.690
Yes, I really appreciate that you highlight that passage because,

00:21:00.750 --> 00:21:06.830
you know, I sort of at first treated my kids as one unit, like,

00:21:06.890 --> 00:21:08.310
what will I tell the kids?

00:21:08.530 --> 00:21:12.330
But because of their age difference and just their personality difference,

00:21:12.550 --> 00:21:16.550
I soon realized like each of them needed different things for me,

00:21:16.610 --> 00:21:19.230
you know, and developmentally they were different.

00:21:19.230 --> 00:21:23.690
And so my younger daughter was always the one who wanted all of the facts.

00:21:23.850 --> 00:21:28.870
Like she started asking exactly how did he die? I want to know all the details.

00:21:28.990 --> 00:21:30.110
You know, when she was nine.

00:21:31.144 --> 00:21:34.684
Not immediately right after he died, but very soon after.

00:21:34.844 --> 00:21:37.764
And my older daughter never asked for that.

00:21:37.904 --> 00:21:43.304
I mean, he kind of absorbed the details, but she was more the one who wanted

00:21:43.304 --> 00:21:49.384
to keep an image of him as she had known him on, you know, when he was alive and thriving.

00:21:49.844 --> 00:21:56.984
So the passage you refer to is, you know, finally, when I talk to Julia and

00:21:56.984 --> 00:21:58.484
she's like, how did daddy die? I have.

00:21:58.744 --> 00:22:06.164
So I explained, you know, he had this illness and he just, you know, and he jumped.

00:22:06.264 --> 00:22:10.104
I mean, that was pretty much one of, you know, there are several worst moments

00:22:10.104 --> 00:22:13.564
of my life. And this was one of them trying to tell my nine year old this.

00:22:13.684 --> 00:22:16.224
And, you know, I said it to her.

00:22:17.024 --> 00:22:21.644
And like almost that impulse that you have with your kids, when something bad

00:22:21.644 --> 00:22:26.244
happens, you want to make Like, all you want to do is not have them feel pain, right?

00:22:26.564 --> 00:22:36.584
So I said, you know, I imagine that for a moment, he felt like he was flying before he died.

00:22:37.104 --> 00:22:41.284
And, you know, he used to say stuff like that to them, like,

00:22:41.484 --> 00:22:43.304
would you rather be invisible?

00:22:43.544 --> 00:22:46.904
Or would you rather fly? Like, what superpower would you like?

00:22:47.264 --> 00:22:51.004
And he that's how he thought he thought like a kid on many levels.

00:22:51.004 --> 00:22:58.424
And so she responded to that like she went with the maybe he did have a moment

00:22:58.424 --> 00:23:06.024
of flight before the end and you know again there's this sort of you want to

00:23:06.024 --> 00:23:07.864
know you don't want to know and,

00:23:08.604 --> 00:23:15.844
the fact that she responded to to that flying statement made me feel like okay

00:23:15.844 --> 00:23:20.144
she also is is able to find some kind of good in this disaster.

00:23:21.854 --> 00:23:25.514
And, you know, he also used to do a thing with them where they'd make this huge

00:23:25.514 --> 00:23:29.334
pile of leaves in the fall in, you know, in Cambridge.

00:23:29.614 --> 00:23:33.214
There's always like, you know, the change to autumn is dramatic.

00:23:33.574 --> 00:23:35.274
And they do leaf jumping.

00:23:35.734 --> 00:23:40.854
And she said, when I said the thing about flying, she said, oh, I also imagined him.

00:23:40.874 --> 00:23:44.334
He felt like he was doing leaf jumping. something so it's

00:23:44.334 --> 00:23:47.594
like she wants to know the gory details

00:23:47.594 --> 00:23:51.134
but then she also wants to bring it back to the

00:23:51.134 --> 00:23:56.994
joy they had together and yeah it was an amazing moment it's like you don't

00:23:56.994 --> 00:24:02.514
think your kids can absorb this kind of stuff and they don't metabolize it in

00:24:02.514 --> 00:24:07.774
the same way that grown-ups do they they understand only what they can understand

00:24:07.774 --> 00:24:10.854
and in some ways that's a protective mechanism antagonism.

00:24:12.074 --> 00:24:17.814
Yeah. And my older daughter, I said, you know, I just told Julia exactly how dad died.

00:24:18.094 --> 00:24:21.754
Would you like me to tell you to? And she's like, that's okay. I've got it.

00:24:22.274 --> 00:24:26.274
And yet they always came together in the end to support each other,

00:24:26.434 --> 00:24:30.634
you know, and we became, I mean, part of how we survived was we've sort of became

00:24:30.634 --> 00:24:36.034
this unit, this like three girl unit that sort of moved through the world together.

00:24:37.274 --> 00:24:41.194
Yeah, so that was an extremely painful moment. Yeah.

00:24:43.054 --> 00:24:46.614
So that kind of leads me to the next question about support.

00:24:47.794 --> 00:24:53.614
So you had kind of developed this tribe within the household between you and the daughters.

00:24:54.274 --> 00:24:58.714
What other kind of, well, cause there was one part where you said you reached

00:24:58.714 --> 00:25:01.174
out to a friend of his who had gone through,

00:25:02.184 --> 00:25:06.984
losing their spouse. Right. And that person never responded to you,

00:25:07.044 --> 00:25:13.324
but you did have a mom's mom brigade, I think you called it or something like that. Yeah.

00:25:13.464 --> 00:25:19.544
So talk about talk about the different support groups that kind of got you through.

00:25:19.964 --> 00:25:25.004
Yeah. Well, I think this is critical to anyone going through this kind of loss.

00:25:25.664 --> 00:25:31.384
We had amazing, You know, in our very unluckiness, we were actually fairly lucky.

00:25:31.504 --> 00:25:33.964
First of all, he had left life insurance.

00:25:34.664 --> 00:25:40.024
And there was a period of time where I wasn't sure we were going to get it because

00:25:40.024 --> 00:25:42.844
he died by suicide and there's a suicide cause.

00:25:42.964 --> 00:25:48.224
But in the end, we did. so we were financially stable and we didn't have to

00:25:48.224 --> 00:25:53.024
move and the kids could stay in their school where they had been since they were four.

00:25:53.224 --> 00:25:55.824
So there was the school community, which was incredible.

00:25:56.164 --> 00:25:59.444
There was the neighborhood community, which we got to stay in.

00:25:59.544 --> 00:26:06.524
Like everything that kept things familiar and stable and consistent helped us go on.

00:26:06.864 --> 00:26:11.144
And then as you mentioned, the mom brigade, I mean, these women who are largely

00:26:11.144 --> 00:26:17.664
mothers of my kids' friends just gathered around and they, you know,

00:26:17.664 --> 00:26:19.364
left food on my doorstep.

00:26:19.644 --> 00:26:24.684
They took my phone calls in the middle of the night when I was anxious and freaking out.

00:26:24.764 --> 00:26:29.464
They drove the kids like to their gymnastics and to the birthday parties.

00:26:29.524 --> 00:26:34.704
And when my kids had to be in two places and I couldn't be both places,

00:26:34.824 --> 00:26:40.044
they would take them. And so that was just so huge.

00:26:40.304 --> 00:26:43.484
And, you know, I didn't have my kids till I was older.

00:26:43.644 --> 00:26:49.644
It was my late 30s. I was 38 when I had my first kid and 41 when Julia was born.

00:26:49.684 --> 00:26:51.364
So I, by that time, had my career.

00:26:51.564 --> 00:26:57.064
I sort of thought of myself as this, like, knowing older mom, right?

00:26:57.204 --> 00:27:01.284
And like, I didn't need help. But soon after Seth died, I realized,

00:27:01.384 --> 00:27:06.784
like, I cannot do this without help. And then Julia and I went to this grief

00:27:06.784 --> 00:27:10.844
group for children and families who had lost someone.

00:27:10.964 --> 00:27:16.884
And she went with the kids downstairs and they didn't talk about loss and pain and grief.

00:27:16.944 --> 00:27:21.724
They like jumped on a trampoline and did art projects and painted rocks and stuff.

00:27:22.736 --> 00:27:26.176
I went upstairs with the grownups and we talked and I could see,

00:27:26.196 --> 00:27:27.556
I talk about it in the book,

00:27:27.656 --> 00:27:35.356
like this kind of hierarchy of grief where I saw women who did not,

00:27:35.356 --> 00:27:40.756
you know, who lost their main source of income and who had to move to smaller

00:27:40.756 --> 00:27:46.456
places away from their support systems and the damage that can do to a kid and an adult.

00:27:46.616 --> 00:27:49.396
And then, you know, there are a couple of dads in the group,

00:27:49.516 --> 00:27:54.036
who apparently really were not part of child rearing.

00:27:54.136 --> 00:27:58.436
I mean, I remember one father saying, like, I've never made a sandwich for my kid.

00:27:58.936 --> 00:28:04.176
Or another who was like, I don't know how to talk to my daughter about her mother's death.

00:28:04.316 --> 00:28:11.756
Like, you know, and I was very lucky to have these people that I could lean on.

00:28:12.036 --> 00:28:15.136
And as you say, it's not always the people you think, right?

00:28:15.356 --> 00:28:21.556
I thought this guy who lost his spouse would really understand and he just, he couldn't deal.

00:28:21.936 --> 00:28:27.156
I had a work colleague I was very close to, I assumed she would be a support.

00:28:27.336 --> 00:28:31.856
And he basically said to me, you have too much pain in your life right now.

00:28:31.916 --> 00:28:33.756
I can't, I can't deal with that.

00:28:33.856 --> 00:28:36.076
Okay, sorry about that.

00:28:36.216 --> 00:28:40.676
But anyway, you know, and then there were other people who were just sort of

00:28:40.676 --> 00:28:43.536
peripheral in my life, and they came right to the center.

00:28:43.696 --> 00:28:48.576
So you just don't know how people are going to respond to this kind of thing.

00:28:49.336 --> 00:28:55.656
There's sometimes a sense that it's, you know, contagious, like I had this terrible thing happen.

00:28:55.776 --> 00:29:00.156
And some people are don't want to come in close to that for this irrational

00:29:00.156 --> 00:29:03.676
fear that it's like going to happen that things can happen to them,

00:29:03.796 --> 00:29:06.496
which obviously, that's not how it works.

00:29:07.096 --> 00:29:12.336
But yes, the support was, and even still, you know, through this book,

00:29:12.356 --> 00:29:14.796
I have people checking in on me, like, how's it going?

00:29:14.936 --> 00:29:17.176
How does it feel to have all this material out there?

00:29:17.776 --> 00:29:22.476
And honestly, one of the amazing things about putting this material out in the

00:29:22.476 --> 00:29:24.696
world, because you never know how it's going to land.

00:29:26.067 --> 00:29:31.367
But in these public events I've done, people just want to share their own stories

00:29:31.367 --> 00:29:35.907
and they want to connect and they want to say, you know, this thing happened

00:29:35.907 --> 00:29:39.627
to me and it was similar and we never talked about it.

00:29:39.687 --> 00:29:42.587
And I, you know, this gives me permission to talk.

00:29:42.787 --> 00:29:47.727
And I think, you know, from a macro perspective, I really think sharing these

00:29:47.727 --> 00:29:51.947
kind of stories with each other is makes us all more human.

00:29:52.607 --> 00:29:57.207
Yeah, and I'm going to put a pin on that because that kind of leads to a question I wanted to ask.

00:29:58.467 --> 00:30:07.387
But before we get to those, what was the toughest thing, trying to fulfill the

00:30:07.387 --> 00:30:12.707
role as a widow in society or finding love again?

00:30:12.707 --> 00:30:15.467
Well i'm glad

00:30:15.467 --> 00:30:18.547
you the widow thing is interesting because you know

00:30:18.547 --> 00:30:25.227
the popular conventional wisdom about like what a widow is is kind of this old

00:30:25.227 --> 00:30:32.487
woman in black turtleneck lace who's sort of long-suffering and you know just

00:30:32.487 --> 00:30:37.547
in a perpetual state of grief which you know i was not ready to embody that.

00:30:38.367 --> 00:30:43.047
However, that's, it's a powerful cultural stereotype, you know,

00:30:43.047 --> 00:30:49.827
and so when my friend about a year after Seth died said, do you want to meet a guy?

00:30:50.027 --> 00:30:52.647
I was kind of like, you know, is this allowed?

00:30:52.967 --> 00:30:56.267
Like, what is the norm here and what is acceptable?

00:30:56.567 --> 00:31:04.227
And, you know, I quickly decided not to care about that and went out for coffee with this guy.

00:31:04.347 --> 00:31:10.207
And, you know, Now, even he's another professor at MIT, actually,

00:31:10.327 --> 00:31:13.707
and we had chemistry. He's actually a chemistry professor.

00:31:15.307 --> 00:31:21.907
Yeah, but we went very slowly. And our first couple dates, our first more than

00:31:21.907 --> 00:31:25.767
a couple dates, I felt like I was doing something illicit.

00:31:25.827 --> 00:31:30.287
I just felt like I was violating my marriage vows with Seth.

00:31:30.287 --> 00:31:32.947
Like who was I what am I

00:31:32.947 --> 00:31:37.427
doing with another person like in some kind of romantic situation that's not

00:31:37.427 --> 00:31:42.007
allowed and at the beginning I would just kind of look around to see if anybody

00:31:42.007 --> 00:31:51.047
was watching us I mean I honestly felt like this there I was doing something wrong and mostly,

00:31:51.607 --> 00:31:58.267
after that I just didn't want my kids to feel like their father was in any way being replaced,

00:31:59.247 --> 00:32:02.507
So we just went very slowly.

00:32:02.607 --> 00:32:09.087
And, you know, I think it was like at least six or nine months after we were

00:32:09.087 --> 00:32:13.887
dating, we finally got he has a daughter six months older than my daughter.

00:32:13.947 --> 00:32:18.767
And we took all the girls to see Pitch Perfect 2. That was like our way of meeting.

00:32:20.441 --> 00:32:24.321
You know, they were really interested in her more than they were interested in him.

00:32:24.561 --> 00:32:29.701
And I think, you know, on some level, they were happy that I was dating someone

00:32:29.701 --> 00:32:33.541
because it took the pressure off them on taking care of me.

00:32:33.841 --> 00:32:38.161
You know, there's somebody else who could take care of me. And so five years

00:32:38.161 --> 00:32:40.021
after Seth died, we married.

00:32:40.341 --> 00:32:46.141
I remarried and, you know, blended family and kind of amazing.

00:32:46.281 --> 00:32:52.321
Like the girls are all doing their thing, but they call each other sisters and,

00:32:52.441 --> 00:32:55.001
you know, they're staring a bathroom.

00:32:55.201 --> 00:33:01.701
It's not always easy, but we, you know, put a lot of work into it and, and made it work.

00:33:01.901 --> 00:33:06.721
So again, you know, back to this idea, my daughter, the day her father died,

00:33:06.841 --> 00:33:08.941
said to me, are we ever going to be happy again?

00:33:09.781 --> 00:33:16.201
And I said to her, yes, But I completely didn't believe it. I really thought they were doomed.

00:33:16.401 --> 00:33:21.801
I didn't think children could recover from this kind of loss and especially

00:33:21.801 --> 00:33:27.301
the suicide part, which, again, remains so incomprehensible. But they did.

00:33:27.421 --> 00:33:31.961
And now they're both in college. They have fairly healthy relationships.

00:33:32.181 --> 00:33:36.241
They have passions. They, you know, fight for their causes.

00:33:36.421 --> 00:33:43.061
And again, the sort of miraculous phenomenon of life going on.

00:33:43.061 --> 00:33:47.361
Yeah, it's an incredibly personal book.

00:33:48.261 --> 00:33:59.421
So, did Finding Love Again help with, was that kind of a support and was writing

00:33:59.421 --> 00:34:02.461
the book kind of a support for you? Yeah.

00:34:02.741 --> 00:34:09.741
Well, you know, I didn't want to end the book with my second marriage to Moonji

00:34:09.741 --> 00:34:17.281
Bowendi because I really didn't want this sort of cliche of like, oh, I remarried.

00:34:17.281 --> 00:34:20.581
So problem solved, because obviously it doesn't work that way.

00:34:21.675 --> 00:34:26.715
Did it take the edge off to have a new partner who I could talk to and vent

00:34:26.715 --> 00:34:29.735
to and, you know, just share with?

00:34:29.835 --> 00:34:31.875
Yes, of course it helped.

00:34:33.495 --> 00:34:36.795
But there was so much more beyond that.

00:34:37.235 --> 00:34:41.275
And what really helped is like, you know, just because somebody dies,

00:34:41.335 --> 00:34:43.735
it doesn't mean your relationship with them ends, right?

00:34:43.855 --> 00:34:48.655
It just shifts dramatically. And so the last chapter of the book,

00:34:48.815 --> 00:34:55.635
which you'll if you get to the end, is about, you know, five years after he

00:34:55.635 --> 00:34:58.995
dies, I couldn't deal with getting rid of his clothes.

00:34:59.075 --> 00:35:04.075
So his all of his clothes were, you know, put in the basement in garbage bags.

00:35:04.075 --> 00:35:07.555
And so finally, I had to sell my house.

00:35:07.975 --> 00:35:12.295
And the kids went through his clothes in those garbage bags.

00:35:12.495 --> 00:35:16.075
And they just loved they were like, Oh, these are so cool.

00:35:16.255 --> 00:35:19.515
And like, I'm going to make crop tops out of these t shirts.

00:35:19.635 --> 00:35:21.615
And they took this whole bag of socks.

00:35:21.895 --> 00:35:26.595
And soon I found like all of Seth's clothes around the house,

00:35:26.615 --> 00:35:28.155
like part of the rotation.

00:35:28.355 --> 00:35:32.055
And there'd be, you know, there they are wearing them as pajamas.

00:35:32.055 --> 00:35:38.675
And, and so like, just this sort of metaphor of him, his presence being still

00:35:38.675 --> 00:35:41.255
around us is how the book ends.

00:35:42.175 --> 00:35:49.555
So, yeah, it's about my coming to terms with my relationship with him and how

00:35:49.555 --> 00:35:53.555
he's still, you know, how his presence remains. domains.

00:35:53.595 --> 00:35:58.455
And in terms of writing the book, I mean, people ask, was it like therapy writing the book?

00:35:58.595 --> 00:36:07.235
And, you know, I think all memoirists have to either struggle with it or just forced to think about,

00:36:07.375 --> 00:36:11.835
you know, what is the difference between, you know, dumping my feelings in a

00:36:11.835 --> 00:36:14.515
journal and writing a book that's a memoir.

00:36:14.935 --> 00:36:20.075
And there's a huge difference because in a memoir, in a book, you have after you.

00:36:20.847 --> 00:36:25.927
Create like a narrative arc. You have to make yourself a character and you have

00:36:25.927 --> 00:36:28.127
to make all of the people in your world characters.

00:36:28.227 --> 00:36:32.887
You have to decide what details to include and what not to include.

00:36:33.087 --> 00:36:40.567
And you have to make it into a compelling story. And so this book was not therapy for me.

00:36:40.787 --> 00:36:47.627
But on the other hand, I've come to think of the process over 10 years as like

00:36:47.627 --> 00:36:51.567
me developing a story I can live with.

00:36:51.687 --> 00:36:54.687
And I think of that really as

00:36:54.687 --> 00:37:00.207
a major part of grief. Like we have to come to a story we can live with.

00:37:00.287 --> 00:37:04.067
I mean, here's this person who your brain thinks you're going to wake up with

00:37:04.067 --> 00:37:09.167
again the next day because you've woken up with them for 15 years.

00:37:09.687 --> 00:37:14.347
And then suddenly they're not there. And how does your brain make sense of that?

00:37:14.347 --> 00:37:22.327
So I think more than therapy, the book is making sense of a story or a critical

00:37:22.327 --> 00:37:27.167
character in the story is no longer there. Yeah.

00:37:27.947 --> 00:37:33.387
So, Rachel, you know, this is a political show, so I got to ask you a political question.

00:37:33.907 --> 00:37:39.307
What should government do to increase support for individuals and families that

00:37:39.307 --> 00:37:44.127
are struggling with mental illness and or grief from losing a loved one?

00:37:44.347 --> 00:37:50.967
That's an excellent question. I mean, you know, we talk about parity in terms

00:37:50.967 --> 00:37:54.067
of mental and physical health, but we are so not there.

00:37:54.347 --> 00:38:02.807
I mean, there was a large increase in mental health issues, you know,

00:38:02.807 --> 00:38:07.347
before the pandemic, but the pandemic made things even worse, right? Right.

00:38:07.407 --> 00:38:14.727
And the wait time to find a therapist, the accessibility and affordability of

00:38:14.727 --> 00:38:18.467
mental health providers is terrible in this country.

00:38:19.547 --> 00:38:23.807
And, you know, you don't have to be suicidal to need a therapist.

00:38:23.907 --> 00:38:29.627
I mean, a friend of mine is like, we should all have we should all have someone we can talk to.

00:38:30.795 --> 00:38:36.035
You know, isn't necessarily a family member who could help us organize the complexity

00:38:36.035 --> 00:38:42.635
and unfairness and, you know, twists and turns of life.

00:38:42.875 --> 00:38:48.875
And so I think government can make mental health providers more accessible.

00:38:49.195 --> 00:38:51.155
They can reimburse them. I

00:38:51.155 --> 00:38:56.875
mean, try to find a therapist who takes your insurance, who has openings,

00:38:57.155 --> 00:39:02.535
and who you, you know, feel is professional enough to, you know,

00:39:02.535 --> 00:39:07.455
and skilled enough to deal with your particular issue. It is not easy.

00:39:07.715 --> 00:39:15.855
So anything government can do to subsidize and train and support more mental

00:39:15.855 --> 00:39:19.355
health providers so that that they are easily accessible,

00:39:19.515 --> 00:39:25.495
I think would go a long way in helping people get the support they need.

00:39:25.595 --> 00:39:32.415
And also, you know, education, I still think there is stigma in reaching out for help.

00:39:32.515 --> 00:39:36.535
As much as we talk about everything online, and we are all open books,

00:39:36.655 --> 00:39:42.615
because we're all over social media, there is still a sense of shame in reaching out for help.

00:39:42.735 --> 00:39:47.015
And, you know, as I've told to my kids, if there's one lesson out of all of

00:39:47.015 --> 00:39:51.715
this is it is not a sign of weakness to ask for help. It's a sign of strength.

00:39:52.875 --> 00:39:56.835
Right. And, you know, I'm not going to put you in the box. This is my editorial.

00:39:58.415 --> 00:40:05.935
We have a political figure that's out there that obviously does not get that

00:40:05.935 --> 00:40:12.755
memo that any kind of failure, any kind of weakness, any kind of failure is a sign of weakness.

00:40:12.835 --> 00:40:19.575
And And if nothing else, that's why I do not support that particular individual,

00:40:19.835 --> 00:40:23.435
let alone when we get into politics. Nor do I. For many, many reasons.

00:40:23.795 --> 00:40:29.875
You know, a lack of compassion and empathy and a sense of, you know,

00:40:29.875 --> 00:40:33.015
helping anybody but himself. Yes.

00:40:33.115 --> 00:40:37.115
I mean, let's not. I could do a whole nother series on that,

00:40:37.195 --> 00:40:38.695
but I am with you on that one.

00:40:39.335 --> 00:40:44.195
Yeah. So September is Suicide Prevention Month.

00:40:44.515 --> 00:40:49.315
How do you believe us after can be an asset to those efforts?

00:40:50.275 --> 00:40:55.735
Well, as I mentioned, I really hope that it is a point to start conversations

00:40:55.735 --> 00:40:57.755
among people and families.

00:40:57.975 --> 00:41:02.635
And one reason I included so many details about my personal situation was,

00:41:02.715 --> 00:41:07.855
you know, almost like an invitation that it's OK if you don't feel perfect.

00:41:07.855 --> 00:41:11.115
If your marriage isn't perfect, if you yell at your kids once in a while,

00:41:11.195 --> 00:41:13.455
like, it's not your fault.

00:41:13.555 --> 00:41:16.755
People suffer for all kinds of reasons.

00:41:17.115 --> 00:41:20.755
And, and we try to do the best we can, but,

00:41:21.712 --> 00:41:26.832
Life happens. And so I hope this can be, you know, part of the conversation

00:41:26.832 --> 00:41:32.312
on how we get help, how it's okay to ask for help, and how we support,

00:41:32.432 --> 00:41:35.032
you know, the people we love when they need help.

00:41:35.032 --> 00:41:42.352
And I will say, you know, obviously, the material in the book can be triggering to people.

00:41:42.472 --> 00:41:48.332
And, you know, for anybody who needs help, there is help available.

00:41:48.512 --> 00:41:53.612
You can call or text 988, which is the Suicide and Crisis Lifeline.

00:41:54.072 --> 00:41:59.392
And they can provide all kinds of resources, free groups, free counseling,

00:41:59.732 --> 00:42:03.532
but you have to reach them and make the call. Yeah.

00:42:03.652 --> 00:42:08.012
And I'm glad you pointed that out. One of the things I want to say from a personal

00:42:08.012 --> 00:42:14.752
standpoint is I have been dealing with depression since 2009.

00:42:15.912 --> 00:42:23.172
And I know that I am different than I was prior to being diagnosed.

00:42:23.172 --> 00:42:25.812
And all the things I was going through.

00:42:26.192 --> 00:42:33.992
One of the things that your book reinforced in me is that if I ever thought

00:42:33.992 --> 00:42:38.312
about going down this path, there's going to be people impacted.

00:42:38.872 --> 00:42:45.032
I remember that movie, It's a Wonderful Life, and not all of us are going to

00:42:45.032 --> 00:42:49.372
have that friendly spirit that's going to take us around and show us what will happen.

00:42:49.552 --> 00:42:54.692
You know what I'm saying? So it's like your book, if nothing else,

00:42:54.732 --> 00:42:57.132
gives people a perspective.

00:42:57.252 --> 00:43:07.812
It's like, this is what happens with people or what could happen with people if you decide to do that.

00:43:08.252 --> 00:43:13.292
Or if you know somebody that's thinking about doing that, you can say, hey, look. Right.

00:43:13.832 --> 00:43:17.352
So if nothing else, go ahead. Yeah.

00:43:17.712 --> 00:43:24.152
No, I wanted just to add to that, which is, you know, some of the researchers I talked to it,

00:43:24.232 --> 00:43:30.312
this grip of single mindedness in which you feel, you know, like you're in a

00:43:30.312 --> 00:43:37.692
burning building and you have no other choice but to jump that moment could pass and can pass.

00:43:37.692 --> 00:43:44.072
And so if there's a way to sort of ride it out, in other words,

00:43:44.152 --> 00:43:50.352
if you do have coping skills and you can talk to yourself and say, it is bad now,

00:43:50.572 --> 00:43:53.972
but it's like weather, it will pass.

00:43:54.252 --> 00:43:59.612
Like if you can get yourself out of that crisis moment and, you know, some people can't.

00:43:59.612 --> 00:44:07.112
But if you have the tools and have practice, sometimes you can move out of that

00:44:07.112 --> 00:44:10.652
suicidal, you know, tunnel vision mindset.

00:44:12.350 --> 00:44:15.650
And get out of harm's way.

00:44:15.810 --> 00:44:19.890
And people who have survived suicide attempts talk about that.

00:44:20.030 --> 00:44:23.570
Like, in that moment, I thought there was no other choice, but for whatever

00:44:23.570 --> 00:44:26.790
reason, that moment passed, and I'm glad that it did.

00:44:26.790 --> 00:44:34.390
So, you know, just having perspective that that moments of pain pass,

00:44:34.730 --> 00:44:37.850
which is not I mean, it's much easier said than done.

00:44:37.990 --> 00:44:43.510
But it's a it's a good awareness to try to internalize. Yeah.

00:44:44.030 --> 00:44:49.190
So if people want to get the book, if people want to reach out to you, how can they do that?

00:44:49.530 --> 00:44:54.130
Well, you can totally find all my all the information on my website,

00:44:54.310 --> 00:44:56.050
which is Rachel Zimmerman dot net.

00:44:56.790 --> 00:45:00.110
The book is available on Amazon, from independent bookstores,

00:45:00.190 --> 00:45:05.730
Target, you know, wherever books are sold, Audible, Kindle, any form.

00:45:06.650 --> 00:45:11.650
But if you want to write to me, go through my website. And I would I I love

00:45:11.650 --> 00:45:17.390
to talk about this stuff with with anybody who's available to listen.

00:45:18.250 --> 00:45:22.030
Rachel Zimmerman, it has been an honor to have you to come on.

00:45:22.030 --> 00:45:25.850
And again, I appreciate you writing this book.

00:45:26.430 --> 00:45:30.710
More importantly, I appreciate the strength and the courage that it took for

00:45:30.710 --> 00:45:36.950
you to go on this journey and to do this and to use the skill set that you have

00:45:36.950 --> 00:45:39.190
been given to make that so.

00:45:39.190 --> 00:45:42.430
So I hope that people go out and get it,

00:45:42.450 --> 00:45:49.410
and I hope that your voice resonates throughout the community as far as helping

00:45:49.410 --> 00:45:54.770
people get through that personal grief that they're dealing with.

00:45:54.850 --> 00:45:57.810
So I appreciate the service that you've rendered in this book.

00:45:58.130 --> 00:46:03.210
Eric, thank you so much for having me on. I really appreciate the thoughtful

00:46:03.210 --> 00:46:05.670
questions. Thank you so much.

00:46:05.680 --> 00:46:24.560
Music.

00:46:27.644 --> 00:46:34.524
All right. And we are back. And so now it's time for my next guest, Michelle DeLeon.

00:46:34.984 --> 00:46:43.124
Michelle DeLeon is the founder and CEO of World Afro Day, the 15th of September,

00:46:43.364 --> 00:46:48.904
a global day of celebration and liberation of Afro hair and identity with an

00:46:48.904 --> 00:46:52.424
estimated reach of 1.5 billion people.

00:46:53.044 --> 00:47:00.864
Michelle successfully combines her broadcasting career of 20 years with leading World Afro Day CIC.

00:47:01.204 --> 00:47:07.364
She has overcome her own struggles with Afro hair and was inspired by her eight-year-old

00:47:07.364 --> 00:47:09.424
daughter to set up the day of celebration.

00:47:09.844 --> 00:47:16.004
Since 2017, her work has influenced the UN, UK government, global brands,

00:47:16.324 --> 00:47:19.104
international media, and major celebrities.

00:47:19.404 --> 00:47:23.904
Key highlights are the Workplace Hair Acceptance Report of 2023,

00:47:24.404 --> 00:47:32.164
contributing to the EHRC 2022 guidelines to prevent hair discrimination in schools,

00:47:32.364 --> 00:47:36.424
and a speech at the United Nations in Geneva in 2018.

00:47:37.104 --> 00:47:41.384
Ladies and gentlemen, it's my distinct honor and privilege to have as a guest

00:47:41.384 --> 00:47:44.784
on this podcast, Michelle DeLeon.

00:47:43.440 --> 00:47:53.360
Music.

00:47:55.104 --> 00:48:00.144
All right michelle de leon did i pronounce that right,

00:48:01.144 --> 00:48:08.004
de leon okay all right michelle de leon how you doing sister you doing good

00:48:08.004 --> 00:48:14.304
i am i'm really a kind of excited to be on your show well that's good,

00:48:15.564 --> 00:48:19.764
yeah first time i've had somebody say they're excited it's like you know most

00:48:19.764 --> 00:48:22.584
of the time They're like, oh, I'm honored to be on and all that.

00:48:23.224 --> 00:48:26.804
You're the first one to actually say excited. So that's good. That's good.

00:48:28.104 --> 00:48:34.204
So you caught my attention on LinkedIn with this, this activity,

00:48:34.264 --> 00:48:38.324
this celebration that you do called world Afro day.

00:48:38.824 --> 00:48:43.424
And I felt that it was kind of relevant because there's been a movement here

00:48:43.424 --> 00:48:47.924
in the United States to do that. So for the audience, I,

00:48:48.701 --> 00:48:53.561
Ms. DeLeon is a citizen of the United Kingdom.

00:48:54.141 --> 00:48:58.041
She is not a U.S. citizen. This is not the first time I've had somebody from

00:48:58.041 --> 00:48:59.661
the United Kingdom on the show.

00:49:00.161 --> 00:49:02.981
And I've actually been on some podcasts in the United Kingdom.

00:49:03.061 --> 00:49:09.841
But I want to clarify that this sister is across the water doing this kind of activism.

00:49:10.921 --> 00:49:13.941
So I'm really, really honored because I know it's a time difference.

00:49:14.061 --> 00:49:16.401
I'm really, really honored that you took the time to do this.

00:49:16.941 --> 00:49:22.801
So let me go ahead and get started. And how I like to start off an interview is with a quote.

00:49:23.521 --> 00:49:26.821
So this is your quote. Trust the process.

00:49:27.921 --> 00:49:35.321
Embrace the journey. Just like our natural hair, life unfolds in its own beautiful and unique way.

00:49:35.701 --> 00:49:41.781
The twist, turns, and growth are all part of the masterpiece that is you.

00:49:42.241 --> 00:49:43.681
What does that quote mean to you?

00:49:44.581 --> 00:49:48.521
Oh, that's a bit of a surprise. I'm like, oh, when did I say that? How did I say that?

00:49:48.701 --> 00:49:58.781
It just means that this journey of embracing our hair and expressing our hair

00:49:58.781 --> 00:50:03.001
in all of its forms, in all spheres of our life,

00:50:03.141 --> 00:50:09.701
takes on all these twists and turns because there's no straightforward path.

00:50:09.701 --> 00:50:12.561
Like since I've been doing World Aphrodite there

00:50:12.561 --> 00:50:18.381
is no master plan there's no one I can go to there's no mentor to say how do

00:50:18.381 --> 00:50:23.901
you change the world how do you make the world see the light there isn't a map

00:50:23.901 --> 00:50:30.241
so I've had to grow it organically figure it out organically.

00:50:31.291 --> 00:50:37.691
Yeah. So what is World Afro Day and what was the motivation behind the celebration?

00:50:38.231 --> 00:50:44.311
So World Afro Day is a global celebration and liberation of Afro hair and identity.

00:50:44.651 --> 00:50:48.611
It's not just about the way that our hair looks.

00:50:48.811 --> 00:50:54.191
It's about the freedom that goes with our hair. It's very much about celebration and liberation.

00:50:54.511 --> 00:50:57.471
They are linked. linked and the inspiration

00:50:57.471 --> 00:51:02.271
was my having a daughter myself and not

00:51:02.271 --> 00:51:05.671
wanting her to experience my similar hair

00:51:05.671 --> 00:51:08.971
journey to me wanting her to be free completely you

00:51:08.971 --> 00:51:14.191
know never go through the struggle never go through the chemicals never go through

00:51:14.191 --> 00:51:20.931
the inferiority complex and having a real I had a master plan for her very clear

00:51:20.931 --> 00:51:25.911
that I wanted her to love embrace grace and be free to express her hair.

00:51:26.471 --> 00:51:30.731
Now, unless she lives in a bubble, I'm going to have to address the outside world.

00:51:31.351 --> 00:51:39.511
I can put in her, infuse in her, raise her with all the love and care and attention

00:51:39.511 --> 00:51:44.131
that I possibly can, but she still needs to go out into the real world.

00:51:44.271 --> 00:51:50.311
And I was aware that the real world would not reflect that necessarily back

00:51:50.311 --> 00:51:58.911
to her so yeah i i really wanted the world to be different for her and for her

00:51:58.911 --> 00:52:03.251
whole generation yeah so from my research.

00:52:04.401 --> 00:52:10.021
It seemed like she was singing one day, and that's what kind of got you into

00:52:10.021 --> 00:52:18.741
the mold to say, yeah, we ought to do a celebration about our hair and what it means.

00:52:19.401 --> 00:52:23.521
Yeah, I mean, she reached a pinnacle at a young age.

00:52:23.681 --> 00:52:27.341
I think she was eight years old, and it was early morning.

00:52:27.461 --> 00:52:34.181
She was in the bathroom. She was actually praising God for having Afro hair.

00:52:34.401 --> 00:52:37.701
She was saying she was a princess and saying she was grateful.

00:52:38.061 --> 00:52:46.061
Those three things are so symbolic of what we've lost that she was actually

00:52:46.061 --> 00:52:53.001
expressing in such an exuberant, free way. I questioned what I was hearing.

00:52:53.181 --> 00:52:55.781
I couldn't. It was just so wonderful.

00:52:56.121 --> 00:52:59.821
I was like, wow, what is she singing?

00:53:00.561 --> 00:53:05.341
And I just felt so inspired by what she was singing.

00:53:05.781 --> 00:53:10.121
But also I had, it was like a, it was a God moment where I was like,

00:53:10.281 --> 00:53:11.961
she can't be the only one.

00:53:12.721 --> 00:53:16.301
She must be, I want millions.

00:53:16.421 --> 00:53:21.561
I want to hear what she was singing. in, I wanted to hear that echoed across the world.

00:53:21.621 --> 00:53:29.461
I suddenly went from being a mother of one child to feeling this motherly love

00:53:29.461 --> 00:53:34.321
for hundreds, because there's hundreds of millions of us. There's a billion of us.

00:53:34.441 --> 00:53:39.321
And I literally went from, I'm just living my life with my child,

00:53:39.441 --> 00:53:43.581
raising my child to, but what about all the other children on the planet?

00:53:43.941 --> 00:53:49.401
And it literally was like And then I went from what about all the other children to women,

00:53:49.601 --> 00:53:57.681
women my age, adult women who I knew were struggling, who I knew were saying

00:53:57.681 --> 00:53:59.721
the opposite things to what I was hearing.

00:53:59.961 --> 00:54:03.041
They were saying all the negative stuff. They were saying the struggle.

00:54:03.181 --> 00:54:06.081
They were saying, I don't want this hair. I don't like this hair.

00:54:06.161 --> 00:54:07.341
This hair is not the good hair.

00:54:07.501 --> 00:54:09.581
I want somebody else's hair.

00:54:10.201 --> 00:54:16.981
So I had the high of what my daughter was singing about. And then I had that contrast of both.

00:54:17.626 --> 00:54:21.906
There are so many people who don't feel like that. There are so many people who are struggling.

00:54:22.226 --> 00:54:25.586
How do I get the struggle into celebration?

00:54:25.686 --> 00:54:30.946
I often say World Afro Day was about turning struggle into celebration.

00:54:31.626 --> 00:54:35.846
So why do you commemorate September 15th?

00:54:36.466 --> 00:54:40.426
What is the significance of that day to make that World Afro Day?

00:54:40.866 --> 00:54:45.686
Yeah, so this is the core American connection, I think, with World Afro Day.

00:54:45.686 --> 00:54:57.586
That for many people, celebrating our hair seems fickle or frivolous or superficial or surface or cosmetic.

00:54:58.346 --> 00:55:04.866
But anyone who really knows our story knows that the hair story is as deep as

00:55:04.866 --> 00:55:06.786
it goes, really, in terms of loss,

00:55:07.046 --> 00:55:13.686
in terms of devastation, in terms of our own self-image and identity and worth.

00:55:14.386 --> 00:55:18.766
So I wanted the date because I knew it was a serious day.

00:55:19.346 --> 00:55:23.886
I knew I wanted to have serious impact. The date had to mean something.

00:55:23.946 --> 00:55:27.626
So someone couldn't just dismiss it. Oh, you're just having a bit of fun. It's another day.

00:55:28.366 --> 00:55:33.326
And then I searched for a while. What date?

00:55:33.646 --> 00:55:36.486
What date can I use for this momentum?

00:55:37.026 --> 00:55:40.106
What date can I use for this movement? What will have significance.

00:55:40.586 --> 00:55:45.246
And in America, September 15th, in 2016,

00:55:45.806 --> 00:55:51.946
the state of Alabama passed a law against AHA, against dreadlocks,

00:55:52.066 --> 00:55:57.026
against having dreadlocks in the workplace, against being promoted with dreadlocks.

00:55:57.166 --> 00:56:03.626
And I thought, this is the 21st century, 2016, and we are the only people on

00:56:03.626 --> 00:56:04.826
on the planet who have laws.

00:56:05.626 --> 00:56:10.446
People have decided to create laws to inhibit our.

00:56:11.361 --> 00:56:16.241
Economic progress and our well-being. And I was outraged.

00:56:16.581 --> 00:56:21.781
I was outraged that this could be put into law against our hair.

00:56:21.981 --> 00:56:27.261
The struggle was already there, but they've enshrined that in a law that you're

00:56:27.261 --> 00:56:34.601
going to make our hair a disadvantage, an allowable point of discrimination. What a step backwards.

00:56:34.961 --> 00:56:39.681
So I was outraged. And I thought that date is the date.

00:56:39.821 --> 00:56:43.281
That date, because i want to do something to

00:56:43.281 --> 00:56:46.321
turn this is again this turn in the history

00:56:46.321 --> 00:56:49.561
turn in the struggle into something positive

00:56:49.561 --> 00:56:55.961
so yes you've done that law but look what i'm gonna do with this date yeah and

00:56:55.961 --> 00:57:07.321
and there was also a court case where a young lady lost her job because Because she had dreadlocks,

00:57:07.321 --> 00:57:12.101
and the company said that she couldn't keep those if she wanted to stay.

00:57:12.601 --> 00:57:17.461
That's the court case. Yeah, yeah. Yeah, the civil people took that and lost.

00:57:18.601 --> 00:57:27.501
Yeah, yeah. And so that's been, and that kind of spurred a movement in the United

00:57:27.501 --> 00:57:33.341
States as far as laws go. But before I do that, I want to touch on a couple of things.

00:57:34.061 --> 00:57:39.261
The word texturism, can you define that for the audience?

00:57:39.261 --> 00:57:51.021
Texturism is a hierarchical system of looking at looser, mixed hair types.

00:57:41.520 --> 00:57:54.960
Music.

00:57:51.521 --> 00:57:59.161
Less coiled hair types as a better standard, a better quality,

00:57:59.501 --> 00:58:05.761
more beautiful, more aspirational than tighter, coiler hair.

00:58:07.341 --> 00:58:09.741
Yeah. And that kind of goes back to...

00:58:11.379 --> 00:58:15.039
This movie one of my favorite movies school days right

00:58:15.039 --> 00:58:17.939
where they had it

00:58:17.939 --> 00:58:22.519
was they had a musical part they had several musical parts in the show in the

00:58:22.519 --> 00:58:29.819
movie but one of them was this whole thing about good and bad hair and you had

00:58:29.819 --> 00:58:34.399
to had the sisters that were like in sororities and all this stuff you know

00:58:34.399 --> 00:58:37.739
talking about you know good hair and talking about the sisters that were more

00:58:37.759 --> 00:58:40.679
Afro centric and criticizing them.

00:58:40.799 --> 00:58:44.459
And it was a good back and forth. It was kind of funny and entertaining in a

00:58:44.459 --> 00:58:50.299
way, but the reason why it was put in the movie was to highlight the fact that

00:58:50.299 --> 00:58:52.819
that is a struggle within the African diaspora.

00:58:54.859 --> 00:58:59.399
Especially here in America about, you know, good and bad hair,

00:58:59.539 --> 00:59:02.879
you know, and I think, uh, what's his name?

00:59:03.599 --> 00:59:09.119
Chris rock, I think, did a whole documentary about the whole industry that's

00:59:09.119 --> 00:59:14.579
based off of people trying to get their hair a certain way so they'll fit in

00:59:14.579 --> 00:59:19.619
and avoid this texturism that we all experience.

00:59:21.259 --> 00:59:26.199
A historian once stated that the dominant race established societal norms.

00:59:27.399 --> 00:59:30.719
Any deviation from those norms were labeled as unacceptable.

00:59:30.719 --> 00:59:36.639
It's a historical legacy of oppression and policing black decisions.

00:59:37.079 --> 00:59:45.659
So you agree with that statement, right? Yeah, we're dealing with a historical

00:59:45.659 --> 00:59:50.519
system of categorizing hair that has never shifted.

00:59:50.879 --> 00:59:54.199
And I mean, we're only really starting to shift it now.

00:59:54.579 --> 01:00:00.499
I mean, because of our own conformity and our own...

01:00:02.242 --> 01:00:07.362
Our own conditioning to see our own hair type is less. We haven't even tried

01:00:07.362 --> 01:00:09.402
to change it. We didn't. Maybe we haven't tried to change it.

01:00:09.722 --> 01:00:17.122
I mean, the 60s and 70s was a moment, was a decade or 15 years.

01:00:18.622 --> 01:00:22.482
But what were we trying to do? I don't know how much change they were.

01:00:22.562 --> 01:00:28.962
We were expressing ourselves, but we weren't changing the systems that created

01:00:28.962 --> 01:00:31.202
that. We weren't actually changing systems.

01:00:32.242 --> 01:00:35.822
And then I often laugh because that's my dad's generation.

01:00:36.102 --> 01:00:40.082
I said, what happened to your generation? Because you then raised us and we

01:00:40.082 --> 01:00:43.682
all just, we all went to jerry curl and relaxes. What happened?

01:00:44.122 --> 01:00:49.182
You know, you were the parents that rocked the Afros. You were the parents that

01:00:49.182 --> 01:00:51.942
black is beautiful. You were those parents.

01:00:52.522 --> 01:00:56.842
And then you brought us up and we were in the jerry curl and the perm.

01:00:56.962 --> 01:01:00.402
So what happened? It didn't, I don't know why.

01:01:01.702 --> 01:01:04.642
It didn't have the the roots weren't deep enough

01:01:04.642 --> 01:01:08.082
yeah you know because it was

01:01:08.082 --> 01:01:11.442
like i i had i had an afro when

01:01:11.442 --> 01:01:14.582
i had hair uh and i even

01:01:14.582 --> 01:01:19.342
had a blowout you know because one of my favorite baseball players it was so

01:01:19.342 --> 01:01:24.202
cool he was cuban and he had this giant afro and he would stick that cap on

01:01:24.202 --> 01:01:27.882
and the afro would just pop out and then when he was running after the ball

01:01:27.882 --> 01:01:32.002
you know the cap Kappa fly off and you see this Afro waving in the wind as he's

01:01:32.002 --> 01:01:33.722
tracking down a fly ball and all that.

01:01:34.062 --> 01:01:37.322
And I just thought that was cool. And I said, well, let me get me a blowout, too.

01:01:37.402 --> 01:01:39.922
And then I played one game and that hair was blowing my eyes.

01:01:39.982 --> 01:01:43.242
I said, no, I'm not going to be able to do that. Not the blowout part.

01:01:43.722 --> 01:01:47.342
But, you know, I it was like that was that was a thing growing up.

01:01:47.602 --> 01:01:51.122
I'm of that age where, yeah, we were rocking Afros and all that.

01:01:51.222 --> 01:01:56.682
And, you know, the iconic images of Angela Davis, you know, and that was that

01:01:56.682 --> 01:01:58.082
was her symbol of defiance.

01:01:58.842 --> 01:02:02.422
To the system wearing that Afro is like, yeah, you know, that,

01:02:02.542 --> 01:02:05.302
and even, even now, right.

01:02:06.977 --> 01:02:14.257
When young brothers see a sister with an afro, they're attracted to her in a

01:02:14.257 --> 01:02:17.737
certain way because it exudes power, right?

01:02:19.017 --> 01:02:24.817
So, yeah, let's talk about that. Or not attracted to her because it exudes power.

01:02:25.437 --> 01:02:30.477
Well, yeah, now that's a thing too. But let's talk about the power of hair.

01:02:30.477 --> 01:02:39.437
How does that power impact our struggle or our quest for self-determination?

01:02:40.737 --> 01:02:44.757
The power of hair, it's just, it's a legacy.

01:02:45.117 --> 01:02:52.157
It's a generational thing. The power of hair has to be instilled in as early as possible.

01:02:52.577 --> 01:02:57.257
Because when you instill it in early, it can't be taken away. way.

01:02:57.597 --> 01:03:01.437
So when I've instilled it in my daughter, that is her roots.

01:03:01.937 --> 01:03:09.017
So as she navigates the system, her roots are already embedded in her hair, is a strength.

01:03:09.277 --> 01:03:14.257
So it doesn't matter what's coming at her externally, it can't shift that because

01:03:14.257 --> 01:03:18.677
that's a root, that a part of who she is, that my hair is a strength.

01:03:18.977 --> 01:03:22.717
So no matter what you're saying externally, you can't change that.

01:03:22.717 --> 01:03:27.057
So power first comes internally.

01:03:27.477 --> 01:03:32.397
The power of hair first comes internally before you see it.

01:03:32.597 --> 01:03:39.177
So if you can embed that internally, that relationship, and there's a spiritual

01:03:39.177 --> 01:03:46.757
part of it that as African people, we had a very strong spiritual connection with our hair.

01:03:46.757 --> 01:03:52.857
And we actually had a very sense of being blessed to have this hair type.

01:03:53.917 --> 01:03:59.117
And if you do not feel grateful and you do not feel blessed,

01:03:59.357 --> 01:04:01.037
you don't have any power.

01:04:02.233 --> 01:04:09.973
Yeah, one of the early Bible stories growing up that appealed to a lot of us,

01:04:10.073 --> 01:04:15.373
consciously and subconsciously, really was the story of Samson, right?

01:04:15.473 --> 01:04:20.573
Because his strength was connected with his hair, and when he was tricked to

01:04:20.573 --> 01:04:26.473
getting his hair cut, he lost his strength, he lost his powers, even his identity.

01:04:26.473 --> 01:04:30.413
And and so a lot

01:04:30.413 --> 01:04:33.593
of us related to that you

01:04:33.593 --> 01:04:40.033
know and with not even fully understanding the historical context of it and

01:04:40.033 --> 01:04:46.813
then we started learning about the slave trade and how the minute that the slaves

01:04:46.813 --> 01:04:52.913
are brought on american shores that they were all it didn't matter male or female young or old,

01:04:52.993 --> 01:04:59.793
they all got their hair shaven because the traitors knew that they knew enough

01:04:59.793 --> 01:05:04.113
where they knew that certain hairstyles identified certain groups.

01:05:04.833 --> 01:05:11.253
And if people saw somebody with a similar hairstyle, they might get together.

01:05:11.333 --> 01:05:14.193
They might collude to rebel or whatever the case may be.

01:05:14.333 --> 01:05:18.913
So they they made sure that they cut their hair so nobody could really identify

01:05:18.913 --> 01:05:20.693
who was who. You know what I'm saying?

01:05:21.733 --> 01:05:26.433
So, you know, I think it's really, really important for us to understand this

01:05:26.433 --> 01:05:29.333
and not try to trivialize it.

01:05:29.413 --> 01:05:35.353
And I'm going to get to that in this question coming up because I want to state some facts.

01:05:35.513 --> 01:05:42.493
So as of now in the United States, we've got 25 that have passed some version

01:05:42.493 --> 01:05:44.273
of what we call the Crown Act.

01:05:44.813 --> 01:05:50.153
And Crown stands for create a respectful and open workplace for natural hair.

01:05:51.033 --> 01:05:56.193
There's been two attempts say that again open world,

01:05:57.013 --> 01:06:02.013
oh okay open world okay because it's like the definition I pulled up it said

01:06:02.013 --> 01:06:07.313
workplace but you know Americans we're capitalistic people you know so it's all about jobs.

01:06:08.953 --> 01:06:16.013
It's all about jobs for us we're not dealing with this esoteric you know broad

01:06:16.013 --> 01:06:19.473
vision it's like you know It's the open workplace.

01:06:19.613 --> 01:06:23.153
It's a job. We're trying to make sure we get paid, right? Yeah.

01:06:27.693 --> 01:06:31.553
There's been a couple of attempts at the federal level to do it in our National

01:06:31.553 --> 01:06:35.233
Congress, and it's gotten out of the House, but it hasn't,

01:06:36.658 --> 01:06:42.538
made it through the Senate for whatever reason. And even though we have 25 states

01:06:42.538 --> 01:06:46.718
that have passed it, two significant things.

01:06:46.838 --> 01:06:54.058
One, 43% of black women still live in states where they are vulnerable to hair based discrimination.

01:06:56.858 --> 01:07:02.358
And we've had, we had a case that was very high profile right when we were trying

01:07:02.358 --> 01:07:06.758
to coordinate when you were going to come on this, This young man named Daryl George,

01:07:07.038 --> 01:07:15.538
I believe, he's been banned from his high school in Texas because he his his

01:07:15.538 --> 01:07:17.558
hair didn't conform to the school district.

01:07:18.758 --> 01:07:24.058
And Texas, ironically, which was kind of surprised me, had actually was one

01:07:24.058 --> 01:07:26.658
of the states that had passed a Crown Act law.

01:07:27.398 --> 01:07:32.658
But the school got around it because they said, well, no, we're not against the style.

01:07:33.218 --> 01:07:38.518
It's the length of the hair. Right. And so when they asked the state representative

01:07:38.518 --> 01:07:42.098
who wrote the bill, they said, well, did you consider length?

01:07:42.338 --> 01:07:45.918
And he said, well, if you understood the hairstyle, you understood that length

01:07:45.918 --> 01:07:50.558
was part of it, you know, so we didn't put that in the legislation.

01:07:51.518 --> 01:07:57.118
So that gave the judge the room to say, well, you know, the school district

01:07:57.118 --> 01:08:00.518
didn't violate the law because it was about length and not about style.

01:08:00.518 --> 01:08:03.018
And so this young man can't go to that school anymore.

01:08:04.538 --> 01:08:09.758
So what do you think? Huh? It's been a very sad case because we were,

01:08:09.838 --> 01:08:12.438
you know, we've been aware and watching it.

01:08:12.858 --> 01:08:17.498
And, you know, you always play in your mind. Well, how would that work in our

01:08:17.498 --> 01:08:19.418
country? What would be happening here?

01:08:20.278 --> 01:08:23.518
So you know and in both ways it's

01:08:23.518 --> 01:08:26.738
happened in our country where children have been.

01:08:24.080 --> 01:08:32.720
Music.

01:08:26.738 --> 01:08:30.278
Forced to leave a school because of length and style

01:08:30.278 --> 01:08:33.958
but you've also had judges backing

01:08:33.958 --> 01:08:37.218
um a black boy's right to wear cornrows

01:08:37.218 --> 01:08:39.858
to school so we had we've had both sides of it

01:08:39.858 --> 01:08:43.418
so you you you decided and

01:08:43.418 --> 01:08:46.498
And this was all leading up to you recently

01:08:46.498 --> 01:08:50.198
decided this year prior to the

01:08:50.198 --> 01:08:54.598
World Afro Day celebration to have

01:08:54.598 --> 01:09:01.698
some a member of parliament actually introduce legislation or actually amend

01:09:01.698 --> 01:09:10.778
the 2010 Equality Act to to make Afro hair protected characteristic. Characteristic.

01:09:11.018 --> 01:09:17.838
Talk about that camp because it was pretty cool how you did it. It was like a hundred.

01:09:18.298 --> 01:09:22.898
It was like, was it a hundred voices, a hundred words campaign kind of talk

01:09:22.898 --> 01:09:29.318
about the whole thing that that the campaign and what y'all were trying to do.

01:09:30.150 --> 01:09:35.470
Yeah. So we've been on the journey of World Afro Day for eight years.

01:09:35.710 --> 01:09:40.490
And it's not like the law was never in my eyeline.

01:09:40.590 --> 01:09:44.290
It was, but the timing had to be right.

01:09:44.530 --> 01:09:47.530
And I also, the evidence had to be there.

01:09:47.690 --> 01:09:53.090
So what's happened in eight years, there's been multiple reports,

01:09:53.510 --> 01:09:57.270
multiple sets of research, not just my own.

01:09:57.430 --> 01:10:02.890
So as my own organization, I make sure I commission report after report after

01:10:02.890 --> 01:10:08.430
report, but also other people were creating UK-based research because a lot

01:10:08.430 --> 01:10:11.090
of it has been previously American-based research.

01:10:11.330 --> 01:10:15.250
So we've had time to build up our own body of evidence and research.

01:10:15.770 --> 01:10:22.850
And then I was able to say, dealing with the workplace, this will not change without a law change.

01:10:23.290 --> 01:10:26.930
It's too embedded into society without a legal change.

01:10:27.270 --> 01:10:31.230
And also, if you look at it from an employer's point of view,

01:10:31.550 --> 01:10:36.430
they've never been told they should not discriminate against someone because

01:10:36.430 --> 01:10:38.550
of their hair. It doesn't exist anywhere.

01:10:38.790 --> 01:10:41.390
They haven't gone to school and heard that. They haven't gone to university

01:10:41.390 --> 01:10:45.110
and heard that. They've never heard an employment training about that.

01:10:45.370 --> 01:10:47.630
So is it really their fault when

01:10:47.630 --> 01:10:50.970
something is part of society and they've never been told not to do it.

01:10:51.090 --> 01:10:57.310
So actually, the onus is on for the values of the country, and that's our laws,

01:10:57.310 --> 01:10:59.270
to say, well, what is right and what is wrong?

01:10:59.810 --> 01:11:04.470
If skin discrimination is wrong, why would you say discriminating against another

01:11:04.470 --> 01:11:06.370
part of the body is not wrong as well?

01:11:06.870 --> 01:11:10.450
The logic follows. One part of the body, that's wrong.

01:11:11.090 --> 01:11:14.150
The another part of the body, it's wrong, but it's not written in law.

01:11:14.310 --> 01:11:22.550
So it became really just so evident that to actually get this to a level of

01:11:22.550 --> 01:11:25.570
understanding, you have to have a law change.

01:11:25.990 --> 01:11:30.230
So with that in mind, it's like, well, how are we going to get people to listen?

01:11:30.750 --> 01:11:34.510
Because you're dealing with the people in power who do not have this issue.

01:11:34.670 --> 01:11:38.710
They do not understand this issue. They have no lived experience of this issue.

01:11:39.350 --> 01:11:42.770
How do you get them to the point of understanding this issue?

01:11:43.550 --> 01:11:47.490
So I thought, well, you've got to make a noise and you've got to make a noise.

01:11:47.910 --> 01:11:50.770
Well, we've got the evidence. So I knew I had the evidence now.

01:11:50.870 --> 01:11:55.670
So I thought, right, I'm going to build an information pack for politicians,

01:11:56.270 --> 01:12:00.410
an information pack that's going to take them from point A to point Z.

01:12:00.750 --> 01:12:04.450
This is everything you need to know about this issue. So you cannot say it's

01:12:04.450 --> 01:12:06.950
not an issue anymore. Here's the evidence.

01:12:07.750 --> 01:12:12.490
But then you have to say it matters. So the 100 Voices, 100 Words campaign is

01:12:12.490 --> 01:12:14.990
saying, okay, it's not just my organization saying it.

01:12:15.170 --> 01:12:19.210
Let's have some high profile people who you do know.

01:12:20.086 --> 01:12:26.206
Say it in their own words. So that's where the hundred words and hundred voices came from.

01:12:26.246 --> 01:12:32.386
We wanted to amplify this matters to a lot of people. And these a hundred voices

01:12:32.386 --> 01:12:34.146
are going to represent all of us.

01:12:34.286 --> 01:12:41.566
What was good about it is, as we know, the currency of the world that we live

01:12:41.566 --> 01:12:44.566
in are celebrities and high profile people.

01:12:44.966 --> 01:12:51.046
And it was great that enough of them said, yeah, we want to give you our 100

01:12:51.046 --> 01:12:53.186
words. We want to see this change.

01:12:53.566 --> 01:12:59.646
So we were able to speak to a politician, an MP who could say,

01:12:59.746 --> 01:13:01.606
right, Michelle, yeah, I agree with that.

01:13:01.806 --> 01:13:05.106
I want to help you take this into parliament. Because as you know,

01:13:05.306 --> 01:13:08.726
politics is a whole different world.

01:13:08.946 --> 01:13:13.946
If you're not in that world, you will not understand the rules of how things work.

01:13:13.946 --> 01:13:18.566
So we're coming in as an outside organization and we had to connect with an

01:13:18.566 --> 01:13:24.546
MP on the inside and then make noise to say, this is something that's important

01:13:24.546 --> 01:13:26.906
and this is something that needs to change.

01:13:27.426 --> 01:13:34.706
So, and you know what? We had a lot of press coverage and we had a lot of positive press coverage.

01:13:34.806 --> 01:13:39.406
I haven't even seen anything negative about it. I didn't hear any negative,

01:13:39.486 --> 01:13:43.946
I didn't read a single negative article, a negative radio, negative piece.

01:13:44.106 --> 01:13:48.926
It was wholly saying, these people are campaigning for this change.

01:13:49.626 --> 01:13:53.846
That's what it was saying. And a lot of support kind of saying,

01:13:53.946 --> 01:13:56.546
well, actually, well, they've got something here, haven't they?

01:13:56.686 --> 01:13:59.026
This is what they're saying. Doesn't it matter?

01:13:59.766 --> 01:14:07.046
So, you know, we were really happy that we were able to start the process. Yeah.

01:14:07.246 --> 01:14:15.626
So kind of talk about what is the timeline as far as getting that done?

01:14:15.906 --> 01:14:21.606
I know the process has started because you did this like on the 10th of September.

01:14:23.381 --> 01:14:30.481
Where is the legislation now? How soon do you think that it'll be brought forward

01:14:30.481 --> 01:14:34.581
before House of Commons,

01:14:34.981 --> 01:14:40.281
I guess, for it to go for a vote?

01:14:41.281 --> 01:14:44.761
Yes. Do you know what? We're not even, we're not at that legislation stage.

01:14:45.881 --> 01:14:50.701
With this, it's very, I don't know. I suppose the UK, I don't know how different.

01:14:50.701 --> 01:14:54.041
Different everybody's political systems are very different there

01:14:54.041 --> 01:14:57.361
are different routes that you can take in the uk you could

01:14:57.361 --> 01:15:00.221
have an individual bill brought in by an

01:15:00.221 --> 01:15:07.361
individual mp or you can have the government do the bill so our first choice

01:15:07.361 --> 01:15:11.821
will be to make sure that the government recognizes that they should be making

01:15:11.821 --> 01:15:17.861
this change and we're still in that process you know we're literally still in that process of,

01:15:17.981 --> 01:15:23.961
I'm going to still be, I've got to send all the reports to different MPs, different ministers,

01:15:24.221 --> 01:15:29.661
different government ministers, and say, keep putting this in front of their

01:15:29.661 --> 01:15:34.021
face, so to speak, you know, keep putting this in front of their face.

01:15:34.301 --> 01:15:38.761
And I don't yet know how they're going to respond.

01:15:39.421 --> 01:15:47.221
So would you feel with this new leadership that's running the country now,

01:15:47.441 --> 01:15:53.541
do you feel that that's going to be a more receptive government for the idea

01:15:53.541 --> 01:15:56.181
as opposed to the previous?

01:15:57.341 --> 01:16:02.841
Because I guess it's the labor group, the labor party that's in charge now,

01:16:03.021 --> 01:16:05.721
and it's like prior to that, it was the conservatives.

01:16:05.781 --> 01:16:11.801
So do you think the labor movement is more sympathetic to what you're trying

01:16:11.801 --> 01:16:14.441
to do as opposed to the other party?

01:16:15.041 --> 01:16:17.721
On paper, that would be the case.

01:16:18.421 --> 01:16:21.961
On paper, that should be the case.

01:16:22.641 --> 01:16:28.741
But we have to see that in reality. Put it this way. I didn't know I was doing

01:16:28.741 --> 01:16:30.321
this anyway. I didn't know.

01:16:30.981 --> 01:16:34.081
Don't forget, they called a snap election in July.

01:16:34.381 --> 01:16:38.821
So I had World Effort Days in September. So I was always planning to do this.

01:16:38.841 --> 01:16:43.081
So I didn't know there was going to be a change of government. So...

01:16:44.293 --> 01:16:49.633
Like with World Afro Day, from the beginning, if I went by how things were received

01:16:49.633 --> 01:16:55.393
to be my motivation, then I wouldn't do anything because the whole world says this doesn't matter.

01:16:55.873 --> 01:16:59.893
So it doesn't really matter who's in office.

01:17:00.053 --> 01:17:05.273
I know that this matters and this is a lifelong commitment of change for me.

01:17:05.673 --> 01:17:09.353
So talk about that in a little more detail. Because,

01:17:09.713 --> 01:17:16.153
you know, in the United States, we'll, you know, we don't have any qualms here

01:17:16.153 --> 01:17:20.873
about folks expressing when they don't like something. Right. One way or the other.

01:17:21.373 --> 01:17:29.973
And, you know, when when the first Crown Act got passed in California and there

01:17:29.973 --> 01:17:36.293
was some momentum to start doing in other states and at the federal level, folks were like saying,

01:17:36.553 --> 01:17:39.733
well, you know, that's not important. It's like, why are y'all wasting time?

01:17:39.813 --> 01:17:42.293
We got to deal with inflation. We got to deal with unemployment.

01:17:42.693 --> 01:17:45.333
We got to deal with immigration. We got to deal with all these other issues.

01:17:45.513 --> 01:17:49.273
Why are y'all talking about hair? I mean, why is that important?

01:17:49.573 --> 01:17:56.013
So what would you say to your critics in the UK that say, yeah,

01:17:56.173 --> 01:17:59.233
this is not at the top of our list?

01:17:59.393 --> 01:18:05.993
Why should we focus any energy toward getting this done? Why is it important for hair?

01:18:07.339 --> 01:18:16.039
Rights of people as far as their hair is concerned for the UK and even for here. Yeah.

01:18:16.399 --> 01:18:24.079
I suppose you have to look at what is right and what is wrong and not just the individual thing.

01:18:24.499 --> 01:18:29.519
Is it right to discriminate against children,

01:18:29.719 --> 01:18:36.079
to discriminate against people in the workplace and to have people's health

01:18:36.079 --> 01:18:39.719
impacted because they have a different hair type? Right.

01:18:39.739 --> 01:18:45.539
If you say that's wrong for a skin color, why would you say that's okay for hair?

01:18:45.819 --> 01:18:51.799
It's never been okay. And we're saying it's not okay because it's wrong, actually.

01:18:51.959 --> 01:18:58.879
It's wrong to treat people, for people to experience a worse quality of life

01:18:58.879 --> 01:19:01.739
because they happen to have a different hair texture.

01:19:01.859 --> 01:19:06.399
It's morally wrong. And it's been morally wrong for hundreds of years.

01:19:06.619 --> 01:19:08.939
So why should we put up with it for any longer?

01:19:09.339 --> 01:19:15.219
You give me the reason why we should put up with it, as opposed to you should change.

01:19:15.499 --> 01:19:21.899
It's very clear the evidence is now there to say this is impacting the quality

01:19:21.899 --> 01:19:24.199
of people's lives. It always has done.

01:19:24.319 --> 01:19:27.599
It's just that we have never positioned it that way.

01:19:27.999 --> 01:19:35.159
If you just say, oh, I don't like something or I don't, it upsets me, it's not enough.

01:19:35.159 --> 01:19:38.159
Enough we're going beyond that we're saying morally

01:19:38.159 --> 01:19:41.419
it's wrong the same way skin discrimination is wrong

01:19:41.419 --> 01:19:44.339
and we're saying that it affects the quality of

01:19:44.339 --> 01:19:51.319
people's lives you know why should children feel like they're inferior 40 41

01:19:51.319 --> 01:19:58.139
percent of children with afro hair want straight hair why should they feel like

01:19:58.139 --> 01:20:01.559
they should become different in order to be accepted in society Do we think

01:20:01.559 --> 01:20:02.439
that's morally acceptable?

01:20:02.779 --> 01:20:06.099
No, we don't. So we do something about the things that are wrong.

01:20:06.819 --> 01:20:12.159
You know, I'm very much, I'm a woman of faith. I'm a woman of God.

01:20:12.559 --> 01:20:19.419
And I believe when something's wrong and unjust, you deal with it,

01:20:19.479 --> 01:20:22.179
whether you think it's important or not.

01:20:22.279 --> 01:20:25.479
Because actually, if it's unjust, it is unjust.

01:20:26.079 --> 01:20:31.059
You know, you don't say, you don't accept what's unjust. That's the point of justice.

01:20:31.799 --> 01:20:37.639
Yeah. Yeah. I totally agree with that. I mean, you know, that's that's that

01:20:37.639 --> 01:20:39.759
was my motivation when I was elected.

01:20:39.899 --> 01:20:46.219
And that's the motivation that those of us in different parts of the African

01:20:46.219 --> 01:20:48.419
diaspora have been trying to address.

01:20:49.965 --> 01:20:56.785
You know, regardless. There's another thing. Equality laws and the concept of

01:20:56.785 --> 01:21:00.265
equality doesn't really help us when it comes to hair.

01:21:00.885 --> 01:21:06.525
And I think I'm starting to get people to understand you have to get this.

01:21:06.565 --> 01:21:08.705
There's an empathy side of the story.

01:21:09.465 --> 01:21:15.165
Ask a white person, do you want to be forced to wear Afros, dreadlocks and cornrows

01:21:15.165 --> 01:21:18.885
in order to progress in life? Everyone would say no. No.

01:21:19.265 --> 01:21:23.485
So why then would we be forced to do the same?

01:21:23.825 --> 01:21:26.565
You have to treat others as you would want to be treated.

01:21:26.665 --> 01:21:32.785
If you in your political position do not want to be forced to wear my hairstyles,

01:21:32.785 --> 01:21:36.005
then why should I be forced to wear yours? Amen.

01:21:37.885 --> 01:21:41.185
We don't have equal hair. There's nothing equal about our hair.

01:21:41.425 --> 01:21:46.425
We have very different hair. There's nothing equal about straight hair and Afro hair.

01:21:46.605 --> 01:21:50.005
They're just diametrically opposite.

01:21:51.245 --> 01:21:54.885
How would you say they're similar? They're not even any bit similar.

01:21:55.205 --> 01:22:00.005
So would you like to be forced to look like us? Would you like to be forced

01:22:00.005 --> 01:22:02.305
to wear our hair? No, you wouldn't.

01:22:02.665 --> 01:22:07.865
So, you know, why should we be forced to change our hair to look like you? Right.

01:22:08.485 --> 01:22:16.005
So this is more than just a one day celebration, which is, from what I understand,

01:22:16.165 --> 01:22:19.925
it's recognized by the United Nations, is it not? It is.

01:22:21.401 --> 01:22:27.061
But you have you've you've developed like some organizations and you've got some scholarships.

01:22:27.821 --> 01:22:30.981
So kind of talk about that aspect.

01:22:31.081 --> 01:22:37.241
And then to kind of close out, talk, you know, talk to people about how they

01:22:37.241 --> 01:22:42.261
can get involved, you know, how people can reach you and all that kind of stuff.

01:22:42.881 --> 01:22:48.441
Yeah, I think I mean, I think the biggest, well, most well-known aspect of what

01:22:48.441 --> 01:22:51.241
we did is the hashtag, you know, hashtag World Afro Day.

01:22:51.401 --> 01:22:56.661
You can look it up and you'll see it's a delight because you see,

01:22:56.661 --> 01:23:02.161
you know, people from all over the planet doing wonderful things to express

01:23:02.161 --> 01:23:06.161
their love and acceptance of Afro hair.

01:23:06.441 --> 01:23:12.061
You'll see artwork, you'll see photography, you'll see music,

01:23:12.361 --> 01:23:17.001
you'll see all these different ways that people are using their creativity.

01:23:17.001 --> 01:23:22.921
So it's actually a real blessing to just be a part of it because it's such a

01:23:22.921 --> 01:23:28.981
love and a celebration, an outpouring, an outpouring of positivity towards our hair.

01:23:28.981 --> 01:23:34.861
But far deeper than that, it's structural change that we're looking at.

01:23:34.921 --> 01:23:40.061
It's the structural change going into nurseries, schools, providing schools

01:23:40.061 --> 01:23:45.541
with resources that teach teachers and empower children,

01:23:45.801 --> 01:23:51.361
going into workplaces that, again, give them resources to understand children.

01:23:52.720 --> 01:23:57.920
This actually stops you getting the best people.

01:23:58.680 --> 01:24:02.940
This stops the people that you currently have being their best.

01:24:03.160 --> 01:24:07.100
So you're not winning. You're losing out. You're losing.

01:24:08.440 --> 01:24:14.940
And then, again, the movement in America around relaxing, looking at,

01:24:14.980 --> 01:24:19.640
again, there's been a health cough and consequence.

01:24:19.640 --> 01:24:23.440
Consequence that's only still getting started

01:24:23.440 --> 01:24:26.580
you know the research is there but

01:24:26.580 --> 01:24:29.720
where's the where's the legislation where's

01:24:29.720 --> 01:24:33.200
the protection where's the health warnings around our

01:24:33.200 --> 01:24:39.960
hair products so there's so much structural work that needs to happen that but

01:24:39.960 --> 01:24:45.900
the law is the this the underpinning of all that because once you have the law

01:24:45.900 --> 01:24:49.860
saying this matters this is of value you, this is important,

01:24:50.140 --> 01:24:54.100
this is right, then everything else will flow from that.

01:24:54.380 --> 01:24:58.080
So now I feel that with World Effort Day,

01:24:58.160 --> 01:25:02.980
there's always this breadth of things that you can focus on and you want to

01:25:02.980 --> 01:25:10.360
focus on, but actually now I'm narrowing it down to law because once you have the momentum on,

01:25:10.460 --> 01:25:13.480
it's like I was saying to some of my colleagues, I was saying like,

01:25:13.560 --> 01:25:15.000
you've had the natural hair movement,

01:25:15.220 --> 01:25:17.620
now you need the legal hair movement.

01:25:18.040 --> 01:25:23.660
We as a people across the diaspora need to start saying we need legal rights for our hair.

01:25:23.780 --> 01:25:28.980
We need legal rights that says we are now all human being in society.

01:25:30.151 --> 01:25:34.091
And we can function as a whole human being. Without the law change,

01:25:34.551 --> 01:25:36.371
we're still not. We're at 80%.

01:25:36.891 --> 01:25:41.011
So how can people get involved? How can people reach out to you?

01:25:41.591 --> 01:25:45.271
Yeah. So worldafroday.com is our website.

01:25:45.451 --> 01:25:50.551
And we've got a campaign, which I believe can be for everybody across the diaspora.

01:25:50.671 --> 01:25:53.251
And it's called Fix the Law, Not Our Hair.

01:25:53.491 --> 01:25:59.631
So if you don't have legal, any kind of legal, what's the word? Protection.

01:26:00.151 --> 01:26:07.051
In your country, then go to our website and we're launching on October 15th.

01:26:07.091 --> 01:26:12.511
So there's a bit of time. Our Fix the Law, Not Our Hair t-shirts and start being a message.

01:26:12.831 --> 01:26:17.291
You know, wear that t-shirt, have those conversations. What law?

01:26:17.491 --> 01:26:18.871
Why does your hair need protecting?

01:26:19.391 --> 01:26:24.451
So Fix the Law, Not Our Hair is like a global message for us to get to the point

01:26:24.451 --> 01:26:29.031
where, you know what, we want to be a whole human being society and our hair

01:26:29.031 --> 01:26:30.431
is part of that wholeness.

01:26:30.571 --> 01:26:32.671
So we need these laws put in place.

01:26:33.011 --> 01:26:37.351
And also you can, we've got another thing on our website, things that you can do with schools.

01:26:38.251 --> 01:26:44.371
So again, you can get schools involved in writing letters to their legal representatives.

01:26:44.931 --> 01:26:49.211
You can get schools to write letters to whoever the leader is of your country.

01:26:49.371 --> 01:26:53.751
You can get schools to the kids to write poems, write posters,

01:26:54.191 --> 01:26:56.711
you know, start from a really young age.

01:26:56.931 --> 01:26:59.731
Because if you think about it, any law that comes into place,

01:26:59.791 --> 01:27:02.491
they're the generation that get to live it out.

01:27:02.631 --> 01:27:05.611
You know, that's a wonderful legacy for them.

01:27:05.771 --> 01:27:11.451
You train them up to create, to be part of that movement where they're going

01:27:11.451 --> 01:27:15.011
to be, their hair is going to be respected.

01:27:15.451 --> 01:27:21.151
It's going to be validated legally so yeah that's how everybody else i think

01:27:21.151 --> 01:27:28.851
can get involved just yeah be a part of it be a part of the change all right well michelle de leon.

01:27:29.999 --> 01:27:39.479
Thank you so much for coming on. I greatly appreciate your initiative and your

01:27:39.479 --> 01:27:41.419
commitment to see this through.

01:27:41.719 --> 01:27:44.659
And I wish you much success in the UK.

01:27:44.799 --> 01:27:57.579
And I hope that next time we talk, we'll have even more states engaged in protecting our young folks.

01:27:58.419 --> 01:28:03.559
And, you know, because again, I, you know, I'm a supporter. I'm a bystander.

01:28:03.559 --> 01:28:05.459
I don't have any hair to fight for.

01:28:05.739 --> 01:28:10.319
But but seriously, though, I really commend you for what you've done.

01:28:10.439 --> 01:28:13.019
And I wish you much success.

01:28:13.379 --> 01:28:15.099
And thank you for coming on the podcast.

01:28:15.819 --> 01:28:19.999
Thank you for having me. All right, guys, we're going to catch all on the other side.

01:28:18.000 --> 01:28:28.560
Music.

01:28:31.519 --> 01:28:39.619
All right. And we are back. So let me thank Rachel Zimmerman for coming on and

01:28:39.619 --> 01:28:42.159
talking about our book, Us After,

01:28:42.339 --> 01:28:48.319
and the delicate subject dealing with suicide.

01:28:48.379 --> 01:28:52.059
And again, as we mentioned in the interview, this is Suicide Prevention Month.

01:28:53.839 --> 01:29:01.099
Well, as this podcast ends, it'll be the end of it, but the awareness still needs to be there.

01:29:01.219 --> 01:29:08.039
And again, if you are feeling depressed or you're thinking about it,

01:29:08.079 --> 01:29:11.419
try to get some help first. Dial 988.

01:29:14.570 --> 01:29:22.110
Make sure that you reach out to somebody because how you feel doesn't just impact

01:29:22.110 --> 01:29:25.290
you impacts those people who care about you.

01:29:26.590 --> 01:29:31.370
So I thank Rachel again for the courage to, to write the book and to come on the podcast.

01:29:31.430 --> 01:29:37.310
And then also Michelle daily on, we're talking about world Afro day and the

01:29:37.310 --> 01:29:42.650
importance of another aspect of our self-determination, right?

01:29:43.650 --> 01:29:51.590
Because, as she stated, how can you discriminate against somebody for the way

01:29:51.590 --> 01:29:55.410
they wear their hair, but you can't discriminate against somebody for the way

01:29:55.410 --> 01:29:57.450
that they look or their skin tone or whatever.

01:29:58.270 --> 01:30:07.810
So I wish her much success in pursuing the political aspect of World Afro Day

01:30:07.810 --> 01:30:10.510
and trying to get laws passed in the UK.

01:30:10.510 --> 01:30:19.430
And I encourage other state legislatures to join in the other 25 states and

01:30:19.430 --> 01:30:22.210
get Crown Acts passed in their state.

01:30:23.050 --> 01:30:30.650
But I want to close out because I want to deal with a subject that,

01:30:30.650 --> 01:30:37.850
you know, has been in the news and is something that's really, really close to me.

01:30:37.850 --> 01:30:43.030
And I say close, not because I knew a particular individual,

01:30:43.230 --> 01:30:49.330
but the issue is something that has been very, very near to me,

01:30:49.390 --> 01:30:57.610
near and dear to me as I went through my journey as far as being a state legislator.

01:30:57.610 --> 01:31:03.250
A man named Marcellus Williams, who was 55 years old, was executed in the state of Missouri.

01:31:04.350 --> 01:31:07.550
And he went through all the appeals processes.

01:31:08.570 --> 01:31:14.450
He came down to the six justices of the United States Supreme Court to allow

01:31:14.450 --> 01:31:15.690
that execution of Ilter.

01:31:17.070 --> 01:31:20.690
Governor could have stopped it. This governor, I guess it's Parsons,

01:31:20.690 --> 01:31:22.630
I think his name was, or is.

01:31:23.230 --> 01:31:28.590
He could have stopped it. that attorney general could have stopped it.

01:31:30.009 --> 01:31:36.509
But they didn't. And there are questions about jury selection.

01:31:37.749 --> 01:31:42.329
There's questions about evidence tampering. There's questions about whether

01:31:42.329 --> 01:31:48.909
the brother was even present when the murder took place.

01:31:48.909 --> 01:31:56.269
Even the family of the victim wanted at least his sentence commuted to life,

01:31:56.509 --> 01:32:01.809
so that way, if he could prove that he wasn't the one to do it,

01:32:01.849 --> 01:32:05.449
then he'd still be alive to fight it.

01:32:06.089 --> 01:32:09.009
But nonetheless, he was executed.

01:32:10.629 --> 01:32:14.629
During my time in the state legislature, I've fought against the death penalty.

01:32:14.629 --> 01:32:24.709
I have made religious arguments, made economic arguments, and I've made moral conscience arguments.

01:32:25.469 --> 01:32:35.729
I don't think we should pass laws to adjudicate people who kill people if the

01:32:35.729 --> 01:32:37.309
state is going to kill people too.

01:32:38.269 --> 01:32:44.549
Especially if the way the decision is rendered, that an individual,

01:32:45.569 --> 01:32:48.169
more likely a judge, makes that call.

01:32:49.049 --> 01:32:55.389
Everybody always makes Pontius Pilate the villain in the Easter story,

01:32:55.609 --> 01:33:01.809
but we have a bunch of Pontius Pilates acting as governors of our our respective

01:33:01.809 --> 01:33:09.209
states, especially in states where they seem to be set on executing prisoners.

01:33:10.209 --> 01:33:17.869
Now, I'm not here to take away the pain of losing a loved one.

01:33:18.129 --> 01:33:22.729
I'm not here to defend somebody's guilt or innocence.

01:33:23.669 --> 01:33:29.369
My position is the death penalty should not be an option, period.

01:33:30.389 --> 01:33:35.109
And I've had family in other countries, living in other countries,

01:33:35.129 --> 01:33:40.569
and talk about the big ceremonies. And I've read through history about how people were executed.

01:33:40.949 --> 01:33:45.709
I've been to county courthouses where they used to have people either hanging

01:33:45.709 --> 01:33:47.849
or being electrocuted in public view.

01:33:48.949 --> 01:33:55.609
And I just think at some point in time that if we're going to be an evolved society,

01:33:56.089 --> 01:34:05.269
we're going to say that we stand on the rule of law, that barbarism should not be a part of the law.

01:34:05.929 --> 01:34:08.249
And that's all executing a person is.

01:34:09.129 --> 01:34:14.809
It's more of a form of retribution instead of.

01:34:16.416 --> 01:34:22.256
Former justice. And I was glad that I had a colleague, John Mayo,

01:34:22.376 --> 01:34:28.396
that fought that battle with me in the legislature, even forcing a committee

01:34:28.396 --> 01:34:31.136
to even deal with the legislation.

01:34:32.196 --> 01:34:38.476
We didn't prevail, of course, but it's a fight worth having.

01:34:39.116 --> 01:34:46.136
And as long as I am I'm able to have a platform as long as I'm able to think

01:34:46.136 --> 01:34:47.556
and express my opinions.

01:34:48.376 --> 01:34:53.276
One thing will always be certain is that I am against the death penalty,

01:34:53.436 --> 01:34:58.176
especially because of the fallibility.

01:34:58.176 --> 01:35:06.316
It will mean nothing 10 years from now if somebody enlightened in the Missouri

01:35:06.316 --> 01:35:12.336
Statehouse realizes that Marcellus Williams did not have to be executed.

01:35:13.316 --> 01:35:23.796
It may look good on the record, may provide a moment of satisfaction for the family of Mr.

01:35:23.876 --> 01:35:27.456
Williams, but it will cause additional pain.

01:35:28.296 --> 01:35:33.796
To the family of the young lady who was killed because now person who was adjudicated

01:35:33.796 --> 01:35:36.836
and executed turns out that wasn't the person.

01:35:37.416 --> 01:35:44.856
And I just think about what if Donald Trump had gotten his wish and Yusef Salam was executed?

01:35:46.681 --> 01:35:51.841
Never would have had a story with a happy ending concerning the exonerated five.

01:35:52.961 --> 01:35:56.021
Brother Salon would not be on the city council in New York.

01:35:57.041 --> 01:36:05.441
Who knows what this world would be like without Brother Yusef and those other four young men.

01:36:06.461 --> 01:36:11.601
So, you know, I'm not going to take up too much time, but I just wanted to be clear.

01:36:12.921 --> 01:36:17.521
America is supposed to be a place about freedom. them. It is also supposed to

01:36:17.521 --> 01:36:21.021
be a place about second chances, about redemption.

01:36:22.041 --> 01:36:26.941
Nobody can be redeemed if they're already dead. If you want to put somebody

01:36:26.941 --> 01:36:30.581
away in prison for life without parole, okay.

01:36:31.421 --> 01:36:38.141
But even in prison, a person who truly reforms can actually have an impact on

01:36:38.141 --> 01:36:43.181
people that are getting out of prison just by guiding them and telling them

01:36:43.181 --> 01:36:45.701
not to do what they They did. Right.

01:36:46.521 --> 01:36:48.521
But you can't do that if executed.

01:36:49.981 --> 01:36:55.261
And not everybody is going to be like Jesus. And after three days, show back up.

01:36:56.081 --> 01:36:58.041
That's not how this operates.

01:36:59.321 --> 01:37:03.681
Human beings. I give him a lot of freedom and a lot of power.

01:37:04.801 --> 01:37:10.601
Especially free will. But they should not have the power of life and death.

01:37:11.301 --> 01:37:14.141
And then some people say, well, what about abortion and all that?

01:37:14.201 --> 01:37:20.681
Look, it's already hypocrisy for people to say that they're pro-life and they're

01:37:20.681 --> 01:37:25.381
the main ones literally voting to execute another human being.

01:37:26.421 --> 01:37:29.621
And then there's some folks saying, well, why didn't Vice President Harris say

01:37:29.621 --> 01:37:33.421
anything? Well, why didn't Donald Trump say anything? You want to go there?

01:37:34.121 --> 01:37:41.981
The fact of the matter is everybody, everybody should be against the death penalty in the United States.

01:37:42.041 --> 01:37:47.561
There was a time in this country where the death penalty was outlawed.

01:37:49.211 --> 01:37:58.611
And some political leaders got scared and thought that a way to stem crime was to reinstitute it.

01:38:00.651 --> 01:38:06.611
Bloodlust should not be a part of our judicial system. Period. End of discussion.

01:38:07.411 --> 01:38:16.891
And until we abolish the death penalty for good, we will never be the nation that we need to be.

01:38:17.871 --> 01:38:25.091
Until we eliminate this discrimination for good. We will never be the nation that we need to be.

01:38:25.951 --> 01:38:32.471
When we stop rewarding people for lying to us, that's when we'll start ascending.

01:38:33.291 --> 01:38:37.711
There used to be a saying, clearest conscience a man could sleep on.

01:38:38.431 --> 01:38:41.771
The softest pill, I'm sorry, a man could sleep on was a clear conscience.

01:38:41.771 --> 01:38:47.431
And I've just come to the conclusion that people are comfortable sleeping on rocks now.

01:38:48.191 --> 01:38:51.191
We can tolerate mass shootings.

01:38:51.951 --> 01:39:00.951
We can tolerate genocide. We can tolerate abhorrent behavior in our political leaders.

01:39:01.691 --> 01:39:06.231
And we can tolerate the state executing other human beings.

01:39:06.871 --> 01:39:11.511
But we can't tolerate people being who God made them to be.

01:39:11.771 --> 01:39:16.311
We can't tolerate people making a decision about who they love.

01:39:16.431 --> 01:39:20.651
We can't tolerate how people want their health care to be.

01:39:21.631 --> 01:39:29.191
But we can tolerate barbarism. We can tolerate bad behavior. That has to end.

01:39:30.111 --> 01:39:39.411
And I hope in my lifetime that we can get back to a place where America says no more.

01:39:40.080 --> 01:40:17.786
Music.