Dr. Beth Allison Barr on The Pastor's Wife and The High Cost of the Two-for-One Bargain

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Welcome to the A World of Difference podcast. I'm Lori Adams-Brown, and this is a podcast for those who are different and want to make a difference. Welcome back to A World of Difference, where we celebrate the unique challenge, the status quo and spark conversations that push us forward. I'm your host, Lori Adams Brown, and today. Today is big.

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If you've ever questioned the way things are in the church or felt the weight of expectations placed on women in ministry, then buckle up because this episode is for you. My guest today is the brilliant Dr. Beth Allison Barr, historian, truth teller, author of the USA Today bestseller the Making of Biblical Womanhood, which she was on the podcast speaking about upon its release a few years ago. And now she's back with a new, powerful book she's been researching. And if any of you have been following her on social media, she's been posting about all the places she's been to research this book, and it's finally about to release.

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It's called Becoming the Pastor's Wife. She's pulling back the curtain on a role that's been romanticized, scrutinized, and, let's be honest, weaponized in ways that have shaped generations of women in the church. Beth's research dives deep into history, from the medieval church to modern evangelicalism to uncover how the role of the pastor's wife became both a platform and a prison. And if you think this is just another academic discussion, think again. This is personal.

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She's lived this. She knows the pressure, the sacrifices, the unspoken rules that come with standing next to the pulpit, wrapping rather than behind it. So if you are a pastor's wife, a woman in ministry, or someone who just wants to understand how history shapes the church today, stay with us. Because this conversation, it's not just about looking back. It's about what comes next.

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Let's get into it. Does it feel like your whole world has just been turned upside down? Are you having trouble remembering to drink water or eat? Does it feel like you're walking in quicksand? You can't even concentrate on normal things.

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You can get 10% off your first month today by going to www.betterhelp.com difference. You deserve to heal. So you know that I like to read and I love getting advanced copies of books. I got an advanced copy of the Making of biblical womanhood from Dr. Beth Alsenbar, and I've been really so, so excited to read this advanced copy of Dr.

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Beth Al Barr's new book, Becoming the Pastor's How Marriage Replaced Ordination as a Woman's Path to Ministry. Obviously, the Making of Biblical Womanhood was a bestseller. It resonated with many of you. There were many podcasts and articles with Dr. Barr unpacking some of the things she learned both as a medieval historian and a subject matter expert in women's history.

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As well as in this book, she unpacks her own personal journey once again, which she did a bit in the previous book. But also what I love about this is it's not only her lived history, it's her history as it intersects with the history of many women, both in the medieval age and now. So you're going to find all kinds of things in this book from examples of women in Wales or how women were perceived as members of the church and as part of ministry in the Middle Ages until now in the Southern Baptist world. That is a part of both Beth's background and mine as well. And so we're going to have a.

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Really exciting conversation today. Either, you know, a pastor's wife, you've been one, maybe you're a missionary's wife, and you see some very similarity, some similar to and we're going to unpack a little bit of that today. But first, let's get into those of you who may be one of the few out there who don't know who Dr. Beth Alison Barr is. Let me give her a little introduction.

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Dr. Beth Alison Barr is not only a renowned professor at Baylor University and author of some great books and articles, but she also speaks widely on medieval church history as it intersects with women's history. And also she has a university, University of North Carolina at Chapel Hill, Ph.D. in this area. And she's also the James Vardaman Endowed Chair of History at Baylor University in Waco, Texas, where she specializes in medieval history, women's history, and church history.

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Like I said, she's the author of USA Today bestseller the Making of Biblical how the Subjugation of Women Became Gospel Truth. Her work has been featured in npr, the New Yorker. She's been she has also written for Christianity Today, the Washington Post, the Dallas Morning News, Sojourners, Baptist News Global. Dr. Barr lives in Texas, still with her husband, a Baptist pastor, and their two children.

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A very warm welcome once again back to A World of difference podcast to Dr. Beth Allison Barr.

00:05:38
Hi, Dr. Barr, welcome once again to A World of Difference. It's so good to be here again. It is. Oh man, we have so much to talk about this book coming out and thank you again for another advanced copy.

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It is just so exciting to know that you have not only researched so much of what's going on in the Southern Baptist world over so long that has also intersected with the evangelical world around women. But you've actually done something that here on our podcast we really love, which you've done a bit of travel for your historical research. So I'd love to know, just sort of starting off, how has the historical research travel Venn diagram really changed your view of the world? So I think it's important, you know, as since I've been in the classroom for so long, I have seen the difference that it makes when I take students to places and I've taught study abroad programs and just the amount of knowledge my students retain. Like, for example, I teach a class on suffrage in London, and I take my students on walking tours of London.

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And the amount of knowledge that those students retain and the way that those historical facts become so much more real and tangible to them has made me think a lot about the writing process. And when we are writing about history, if we can bring people to that place and help them understand what that place was like, it often can help them better remember, you know, sort of an imaginary trip to these places. And so that's what I've tried to do. Both for me, the places that I write about, being in person. I have been in person and made sure that then I can bring that.

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Unfortunately, I haven't been able to go everywhere, but I have been able to go a few places. And I found that to be a really valuable way to help people hear that history better. I love that you do that. That is incredible. I'm I really get inspired by the suffragettes and the suffragists as a woman knowing, you know, A hundred, over 100 years later, some of that stuff is on the line in here in the United States.

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For us, it is Right. And so. But I always love when I go to London, that whole. The square in between Westminster and Parliament where there's, you know, there's all these men, there's Winston Churchill is, like, very, you know, domineering. And then there's just this woman, you know, who worked for suffrage.

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And there's a. It's like. It's such a beautiful little spot because you're so used to, like, okay, you know, Gandhi, these men who we name in history, but there were women that we often don't name. Yeah. What are some of the experiences your students have had in those moments?

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Oh, gosh. So one of the things I do, I take them to that spot where we see the official, the accepted. You know, the. The women who fought for suffrage, who were more pacifists and stayed in the lines, and they get a place in that sort of square there, right in front of Parliament and in front of Westminster. But if you walk around, off to the side, off of.

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Around Parliament, there is a statue to Emmeline Pinkhurst. And Emmeline Pankhurst, of course, is the one who had the slogan deeds not words, and was the more radical part of the British suffrage movement. And so it's interesting, my students see sort of in real time how this woman, who was so significant to the cause, but because she didn't fulfill the expectations of what women should be like and how they should behave, that there is. There was a concern about memorializing her. And so actually, the statue that was put up for her was not put up for her by the government.

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It was put up by. By essentially followers, people who were very supportive of her and raised the money. Her friends is what it was called the friends of Emmeline Pinkhurst. And they put up that statue for her on the other side of Parliament. So it's a story in of itself, seeing even the placement of those statues.

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Wow. I think I'm going to need you to do a little audio tour for me next time that I go. Oh, I can. I love those. I've.

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You know, I've done. I have my little London map book that I always carry with me, and I mark out my roots that I do on it, and it helped. Yeah. So I. I could do one pretty easily.

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Oh, you totally should. I love Rick Steves. Like, when I did the Royal Mile in Edinburgh with my husband, I did it with my mom. We did. We have our little earbuds in and our photos, and we're in.

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I love. Because, you know, they're free. I love Rick Steves. He's got great. Yeah, it's in Paris and all that, but you should do some.

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That would be so fun. Maybe I will. You know, it mostly just comes down to time. Trying to figure out enough time, but hey. But yeah, no, London's my.

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Really my second home in many ways. I know that city so well. It'd be fun to like be there sometime at the same time you're there. I think that as much as I'm inspired by history, just having our own residential woman's history, medieval history, along with us, you have so much information to share that makes it even more inspiring. But also you have a new book and you not only are a pastor's wife yourself, and much like your previous book, you intersected your personal story in with history.

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Yes, and I love how you write in that way. It's very compelling, this one. You talk about your own journey as a pastor's wife and the history of other pastors wives. And your own journey involves your husband being fired, which you talked about in your previous book and you talk about in this one in a new way. But you talk more about the pain of him being fired and what that meant.

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You also experienced that pain even though you had no salary or ordained role. It was a firing of you as well. Many women listening are going to resonate with this, whether you've been an IMB missionary and your husband was fired and that meant you were too, or a pastor's wife. But you talk about losing your appetite, crying in the atrium, asking your friend who's an elder to plead, you know, pleading for your husband's job, but you weren't even allowed to address them because you're a woman. So I have a quote from you.

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I have a quote you said, as a pastor's wife in a conservative evangelical church, I had served like a leader for 14 years. I had been interviewed like a leader before my husband was offered the job. I conformed to the leadership expectations and I was perceived as a leader by the church congregation, but I wasn't one. I reflected pastoral authority but carried none of my own. I was a glorified volunteer who invested several hours a week in ministry work, yet was not included in any official leadership role.

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Walk us through how all of that felt for you. It was a pretty pivotal moment for me when I think, you know, it was a growing understanding of the precarity of the pastor's wife role, which is this role that has so much importance in the church. It has so much potential in the church. Women have used this position really well, to do great things for the gospel and to help other women, et cetera. But yet at the end of the day, it is always a position that is dependent upon the, upon their husband.

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It is not a role that is, you know, it's not a role that that woman has any control over. In some ways, you know, you have to follow the rules of the church and if you don't follow the rules of the church, it reflects badly on your husband. So it's a role where you can cost your husband his job, but you have no input into, into decision making, officially into decision making, or you do not have a seat at that leadership table in the same way that your husband certainly does. Even though your expectations, the expectation for you to do work is part of really what his job, you know, the job offer is for him. It often includes those expectations that the wife will be an active and contributing member to that church.

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But yet at the end of the day, she has absolutely no real power. And that is what I realized, I think that day, maybe for the first time was how powerless I was to do anything to help.

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That is a feeling I have felt. I know my mom has felt, my mother in law has felt having both of them been pastors, wives and Southern Baptist churches and then missionaries who weren't paid, you know, along with the rest of us, you know, the 20 years many of us work with the IMB and the women aren't even paid and so, and then, you know, aren't even allowed to be team leader. That was something that was discussed under David Platt that I was brought in to speak in. And then ultimately the conclusion was women, it's not preferred. So there was.

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So there's so much that people are listening around the world, if they've been in the Southern Baptist world, if they've worked in ministry that they're going to relate to. And this isn't just a Southern Baptist thing I want you to talk about though. You and I both remember a time when women being ordained in the SBC was more common. This is a thing. And it happened and it used to happen a lot more frequently, even though it was controversial, even when it was going on more frequently.

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What has changed in recent years around this? So you know, when I think one of the stories that I talk about in the book is the story of a woman named Willie Dawson and she's a, a woman who is, has particular resonance for me because I lived in the residential hall as a faculty in residence for six years in the Dawson residential hall. And so I walked past her picture, like, every day for six years. And I still remember the moment I was in the Southern Baptist archives, and I, like, flipped a page and I see that portrait of Willie Dawson staring back out at me. And even I knew she had been the pastor's wife of First Baptist Church in Waco, which was a really significant Baptist church in Texas.

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But what I didn't know about her was that she had been. And she died in 1965, I think have to remember. But in the 1930s, she. In the late 1920s and 30s and through the 40s, she was a very significant member of not just the Southern Baptist Convention. In fact, she was actually nominated to be the vice president of the Southern Baptist Convention, which I know was just crazy to me.

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And she also preached internationally at Baptist events, globally, around the world. She also preached in Texas, used her podium for the wmu. She was a major force within the wmu. In fact, she was one of the people that helped keep the Southern Baptist Convention alive during the Depression, because the only reason the Southern Baptist Convention survived the Depression was because the WMU raised enough money to keep the SBC alive. And that's literally.

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That's literally it. And Willie Dawson was one of these women who did that. And so it was just so striking to me to see this woman who I had this connection with in my hall, who had been not only a preaching woman in the sbc, but also had been applauded by all of these male leaders, had been given this platform, allowed to have this platform by all of these male leaders, and nobody questioned it. This was what. This is what you could do.

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And her voice was celebrated. And so the question that you ask is, you know, what in the world happened? If you think about, you know, she died in 1965. There is the reason I ran across her name is because I was researching the pastor's wife group, the convention, which is part of the Southern Baptist, or it's an auxiliary part of the Southern Baptist Convention. And they named an award for Willie Dawson.

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It's the J.M. dawson Service Award. Now it's just called, called the Dawson Award. I think they changed the name of it a few times, but it's always the Dawson Award. And it was for the best pastor's wife.

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And so the best pastor's wife in the 1960s here. And when the award started in the late 50s, the best pastor's wife is a woman like Willie Dawson, who is a woman who is not only engaged in her, you know, she's not just supporting the ministry of her Husband, but she's actually engaged in ministry that's her own all around the world. And today, the best pastor's wife. If you think about the handbook of Dorothy Patterson, the handbook for pastor's Wife, the best pastor's wife is a woman who stays home, cares for the children as the primary. That's her primary identity.

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And every. Everything she does centers around her husband. Her whole identity is built around that of her husband. And if she steps outside of that role, then she is seen as being prideful, as being ungodly, as causing harm to her husband and to her family. And it's this, you know, it's this radical shift that happens between the 1960s and the early 2000s.

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And this is one of the points I want people to know, is that this was like a light switch. It was like a. You know, women could do everything. And then all of a sudden, in the 1980s, that light switch gets flipped. And now the purpose is trying to push women out of these positions with the.

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And what changed was the entry into power of men like Paige Patterson and Paul Pressler. Paul Pressler is that judge in Texas who. He is now deceased, but he allegedly has abused I don't even know how many young boys. Yeah. And in horrific.

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In horrific conditions. And so during the time of the power grab of the sbc, he was allegedly involved. Legally, I'm still using that word, but he was allegedly still involved in the abuse of all of these young men. Paige Patterson was working alongside of him. And Paige Patterson was also accused of covering up these types of abuses.

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And this is what led to him losing his job in 2018. I signed that petition very, very quickly. I was like, no, we need to get rid of that. Yeah. He covered multiple sexual assaults, not just, you know, from his buddy Paul Pressler, incidentally.

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Yeah. The Dr. PPS, they're both PP as their initials. And I just think we're gonna. Just gonna leave that there.

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Yeah. Not good. People who led the, quote, unquote, conservative resurgence or fundamentalist takeover, which also affected women until now, in this generation, the ripple effects of something that can happen so quickly, the shifting of minds, the indoctrination, the changing of seminary classes, the whole generation of people that ended up going into ministry post all of that. When all of these changes, when women were fired from seminaries and, you know, books were coming out, and all of. Was quick and it was pervasive, and it was robust, and it erased some of the memory.

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So the memory of the Dawson woman is largely gone, and yet she is. She was so significant. So it's, it's a lot to process. And as a historic historian, your research is so key for us to understand and to remember what has been intentionally lost and made invisible. You talk about, though, and you mentioned this version of it earlier, this whole two for the price of one where pastors wives are often expected to serve the church without any recognition or compensation.

00:21:02
I, I'm wondering how do these expectations that the wife, you know, print the bulletin, you mentioned that. And then, you know, in the case of my own mother, when I was little, she had to be the janitor and play the piano, which she was actually very good at, but all for free unpaid labor, that it causes harm to women. How is this causing harm? And what is, what is so wrong about all of that? So, you know, I think, and this is one of the things too, when you talk to women who are in this pastor's wife role, and so many of them have this stress, this pressure that they carry with them, that the expectations are for them to provide this type of unpaid labor.

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And when they resist it or they don't have time for it, or that's not what they want to do, that's not their gifting or their calling, they feel guilt that they're actually sinning by resisting what God has called them to do. And this is crazy to me because we argue that the idea of the pastor's wife in some ways is the ideal biblical woman. Yet there is absolutely zero example of this type of two for one principle and pastor's wife role in the Bible. It's not there. It is simply not there.

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We can try to make it there. We can, we can pretend things that are there. Like Dorothy Patterson tries to make Priscilla be this two for one model. And it is simply an absolutely outrageous claim that has no biblical nor historical support. But what this does to women is, first of all, it denies what God has called them actually to do.

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Whereas some women fit in this mold. They want to support their husbands. They don't actually want to be in ministry. They just, this is fine with them and that's perfectly fine. Some women, that's perfectly fine, that's what they want to do.

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But not all women want to do that. Some women have their own vocational callings that may be completely separate from their husbands. Some women have their own ministry callings that may be completely separate from their husbands, or they want to serve in ministry alongside their husbands, but not in this type of subordinate. You have to be the janitor and teach children and play the piano role. They may be called to pastoral roles just like their husbands.

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And so what we have created is a system that makes men, if they are called to ministry, they are automatically called to some type of leadership role, which may not actually be their gifting either, which I think is a lot of our problem in the church. And women are always called to what one of the pastor's wife books that I read says is a followship role. And that is a word that I think it was Betty Cobble used in her 1982 book, She's a Southern Baptist woman who wrote that in the early 80s. And you know, this followship role. And regardless of how they are made, regardless of what their gifts are, regardless of anything else, what this model teaches is that women are called by God to put away everything else about them and follow their husbands.

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And that means giving up the way God made you to fit into this very narrow mold of providing support staff labor for free for the church. Yeah, and I think it's, it's significant because you're being asked to give up what God gave you, your God given gifts, which if anybody's unclear on this, let me be clear. There is no biblical basis. You will not find it anywhere in scripture that gifts are given based on gender. God does gift in that way.

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So there is no case, no matter what your theology is. So women are being asked to give up their, their gifts. And if you have leadership gifts of any type, you are especially not allowed to use those. And if you do, like in my case, sometimes some people will perceive you as a threat or be uncomfortable or be. You'll be like a unicorn.

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You'll be like the only woman in a room in a strategy session. It'll just be weird and awkward and even then, you know, the pipeline of leadership just doesn't exist for you and you're not being paid anyway, so. But I want to talk about something that has been very. We're just going to use the word annoying for me, since I was in college and that is. So my friend Susanna Rafield, if you're listening, and I were in a sociology of religion class back at Samford University, a Southern Baptist university that much like Baylor, was considered kind of liberal to some people.

00:25:30
I had a professor, my absolute hands down favorite professor I ever had, Dr. Penny Barr. She taught sociology, religion. She was a mentee of Molly Marshall. If you know, you know.

00:25:41
And my friend Susanna and I did a paper comparing Dorothy Patterson's hats to the hijab and just understanding we know submission in Islam and the Southern Baptist world at the time. And we just had the best time writing that paper. We went to the mosque and interviewed women. We were interviewing, you know, women and all kinds of Southern Baptist spaces for that. And it was just like, I don't know, we had the best time.

00:26:06
My friend Susanna ended up making a casserole and inviting Dr. Barr over. And we just had the best time talking about it. But let's talk about Dorothy Patterson's hats that covered her hair serving as her personal outward symbol of submission to male authority. What was that all about?

00:26:20
Yeah. So, you know, since I got into this project, I had heard a couple of conflicting things about why she actually wore these hats. One person told me that later on, she said it was simply because she didn't have to fix her hair all the time, which, you know, I guess could be a practical sort of thing. You just put a hat on and you never have a bad hair day. That's plausible, I suppose.

00:26:41
But I think, you know, the general understanding of these hats and. And Patterson, and she actually did say this on times, is that it symbolized her always being under the authority of her husband. And so what, this actually worked. You know, this was a clever. This was a clever ploy, I think.

00:27:02
And. And Dorothy Patterson, from everyone that I talked to about her and everything that I've seen and read about her, she's really smart. You know, it's amazing to think about how her gifts might have been used if she had chosen differently. But she, you know, by claiming, by wearing this hat wherever she went, she was able to do things like enter into pulpits, into classrooms where men were present, and she was able to effectively preach and teach while still maintaining this aura, this idea that she was submitting to male authority because she was covering her head. So it was a really clever ploy for her to be able to teach female submission to men as well as to women, while still maintaining this fiction that she was being submissive herself.

00:28:00
So that. Yeah. So it's. And it became what she's known for. If you look her up, this is what you will see is her with these pictures of her hats.

00:28:08
And there's lots of stories about how much her hats cost, which is another whole thing, but I may leave that one to somebody else.

00:28:17
Yes, I don't blame you. Yes. There's nothing the patriarchy loves more than for a woman like a Phyllis Schlafly or Dorothy Patterson out there telling the women to stay home, not rock the boat, and leave the big, powerful decisions to the men when the men in the patriarchy can outsource that to a powerful woman using her power and somehow gaslighting everybody by acting like we're all staying home when they're not actually staying home. Right. And telling other women to do so.

00:28:47
This is how. This is just gold for the patriarchy. This really forwards the patriarchal movement like nothing else. And we see it in many spaces. We also see when people.

00:28:59
Women, and there's no shortage of things that have been written about this. I think even Kate Baller kind of mentions this in her book, right, that women who overtly say that they are submitting to male authority, they get power and they get speaking opportunities and they get book deals and they get whole ministries in a space that they would otherwise not get any. And it is a trick. It's like a loophole. And it's.

00:29:26
It's. But it's damaging. It's very damaging to themselves, to their own dignity while they're, you know, standing beside their husband in a way that really, it's. It's a bit of like a fawn response to tyranny. It's.

00:29:39
It's a bit of like when we see people, even now, you know, people have different, you know, understanding and political views around the Trump administration, but we saw people, even before he came into power, promising to submit to him, flying to Mar a Lago. And it's a similar thing to just say, oh, I'll submit to you if you'll let me have power. What are your thoughts around that? Oh, gosh, no, you're. You're exactly right.

00:30:01
And. And this is one of the things, too, that I think, with women and a lot, you know, on the one hand, if you play by the rules, this is something that we've always, you know, sort. I remember hearing that phrase for the first time in a women's history class at Chapel Hill. And it was talking about that women who support, support patriarchy, and we often called it the patriarchal bargain. People don't like to talk about that.

00:30:23
But women, you know, bargaining, bargaining with patriarchy, that if you do this, if you support patriarchy, if you support this idea of male leadership within the church, then you are able to get a platform to preach and to teach. And say, for example, your calling really is to support women and to help women. This is a patriarchal bargain that may seem worth it for you to pay because you're like, well, I don't really want to teach men anyway, and I get to do what I want to do. I get to go around and teach all of These women. And so I'm doing good.

00:30:59
I'm doing good, right? And yes, you are doing good, but the reason you're able to do this is because you are supporting this idea that suppresses other women's giftings and callings. And so you are essentially benefiting by exploiting, oppressing other people. And I mean, that's just, that's the reality of it. And then you're also, by maintaining this narrative.

00:31:27
And I mean, this was hard. I can say this because I was part of this system and I did this too. And I, I admit this in the Making of Biblical Womanhood. And I admit it again in a different way based upon some research on the pastor's wife role in this book. By being that model of a biblical woman who submits to other, submits always to male authority.

00:31:48
And by arguing that this is the godly role, you are also teaching other women to do that too, which again means them perhaps putting aside their gifting, which means perhaps them maintaining a dangerous place within their own marriage if they're in a marriage that is potentially harmful to them and, or to their children. And you are also inspiring other really good, meaning women who then will preach this to other, you know, this sort of the networks, you know. Why does patriarchy work? Because women support it. That's why it works.

00:32:26
And part of playing by the rules and getting a platform through supporting this male hierarchy is helping to perpetuate a system that hurts people. Absolutely. We see it in so many spaces, not just in Southern Baptist, in the evangelical space, but in the political space. We see it in business. Anywhere patriarchy exists.

00:32:48
We see the outsourcing of the upholding of it to women who do that for free. And it's, it takes intentionality. It takes a lot of soul searching and inner, the willingness to look inside and a lot of curiosity. But it is a robust system that women support. How do you think, or I would say, what is the burden of being the ideal pastor's wife really do to women in the end?

00:33:14
Oh, gosh, you know, my mind always goes back to that moment of me in that atrium and thinking about, you know, for years I lived under this stress, under this worry that something I might do would harm my husband's position. You know, if I said the wrong thing and, and, you know, this happened to me all the time. I tell one of the stories where I was taking girls to Starbucks and having coffee, having sort of mentoring. We'd play games, we'd, you know, talk about. I'd always have a little short devotional sort of thing for them.

00:33:45
And it was. It was great sort of experience with those girls. And I got my husband in trouble because some people in the church complained about what they saw as a left liberal agenda at Starbucks. And so I, like, had, you know, and so here I am doing something that I thought the church wanted me to do, but yet it backfired. And, and this was.

00:34:06
And. And it, you know, my husband was essentially told that I had to stop doing that. And so, you know, it's almost like walking on eggshells when you're in these spaces that are so authoritarian and, and think, you know, the Southern Baptist world, which has created this very particular image of what the pastor's wife should be. And if you do not meet that standard, you know, I mean, you can think about times when you're exhausted and you've been doing all of the things for the church as well as trying to do, you know, keep up with your kids, etc. And you just don't have time to make that casserole and go to church that night and you don't show up.

00:34:47
And then the next day, you know, people, you hear about it and people are like, well, where's your wife? Why isn't she here too? Why is she not supportive? Or what if you have bad kids, you know, this, or they're not actually bad kids, but they're perceived as bad kids. You know, they don't.

00:35:02
They push buttons, they don't act, you know, again, you're not doing your job. That's reflecting poorly on your husband. And so women are doing this balancing act where they are trying to do what God has called them to do. They're trying to do all the things. You know, I remember one woman telling me that reading Dorothy Patterson's book made her just want to give up because she's like, I can never do that.

00:35:27
It's. The expectations are so high. And for people who don't know, Dorothy Patterson had servants that did all this stuff for her. She didn't actually make all those meals and lunches and etc. Okay.

00:35:39
She had people in the house who, who did that for her. It wasn't real before Instagram. Her book is the Instagram sort of thing. And yet we have all these real women who are trying to live up to this un. Reachable standard and then feeling punished when they don't meet up to it.

00:35:58
And then when they feel guilty about it, they feel like they're being prideful and greedy and sinful and they're not supporting their Husband enough. And then if you add to this all of the evangelical expectations on women in the bedroom to fully support their husbands and be available sexually to their husbands whenever. Yeah, I mean, it's just sex slaves, basically. Yeah, It's. The stress level for these women is just so.

00:36:25
Some of these women is so high. I'm not saying this is every pastor's wife experience. Right. But for women who are in the right cocktail and are believing and are in these conservative evangelical spaces, this is a reality for a lot of women. And I can say that with the authority of having read 100 life books.

00:36:46
Well, I think you're the only one that can say that. So if anybody wants to debate that, like, bring it on, you know, I mean, you're at 50 bucks, too. Oh, my goodness. It's such a burden. It's so heartbreaking.

00:36:59
These are people we know personally. These are people we've been in a certain level. And it is. It's just enough is enough. Right?

00:37:07
Not only are men in the church missing out on the gifts of women, like you said, who could Dorothy Patterson have been if she wasn't there trying to, like, push her husband to the top of the conservative resurgence movement and wearing her hats and teaching classes on how to make your dishes look pretty, like, what could she have been? What could. What could all of these women be? And it doesn't mean that everybody has that leadership gift in that particular way, but I think leadership is if you have influence and women have so much influence on each other, clearly, because this system is so easy to implement where we uphold the patriarchy in all its forms within Christianity and elsewhere. So you.

00:37:45
But you talk about together as a way forward, together for the gospel. What would it take for churches to really embrace a more inclusive vision of women's leadership? And how can pastors, elders, pastors, wives, and I guess any congregant really work to bring change that honors instead of diminishes women. Yes. So, I mean, I try to tap into our imagination of what could be.

00:38:08
And I, you know, I try to convey through this book that it's not an attack on the pastor's wife role. I'm a pastor's wife. I know how valuable this role can be. But yet at the same time, this role has been used to do harm by making it seem like it's the biblical model for what all women should aspire to, which is in this followship role. And what that has done is that has helped to delegitimize women's independent ministry as pastors as teachers, as whatever, missionaries, whatever, in these roles, with.

00:38:44
In ministry, roles that are separate from their marital identity, it has delegitimized those roles. And so, you know, sort of an epitomization of this is that picture of Jan Aldridge Clanton, who's a Southern Baptist ordained woman in the 90s, debating with Dorothy Patterson at the Baptist History and Heritage society, I think 1986. And Dorothy's wearing her hat, and Dorothy is arguing against women's ordination as a pastor's wife, and Jan Aldrich Clanton is arguing for women's ordination as a woman in ministry. And it's just like this. This is what we've done, is we have pitted women against each other.

00:39:20
And it just seems, what if instead of arguing like, my role's better than yours or my role's more godly than yours, what if we were like, wow, God called you too? And what if we actually work together instead of, you know, being, like, being threatened, pastors wives being threatened by ordained women, what if instead we were like, wow, look at all these things these women are doing in their position. And I'm doing this in my position. And this is all working together for the gospel. I mean, I just seems to me that women have bought into this patriarchal system which has us fighting each other on these.

00:39:59
You know, I. We talked with Meredith Stone for part of what. For this book launch, and she is the director of Baptist Women in Ministry, and she talked about sort of these, you know, vertical. That when you. People who are under that power structure, that all they have to vie for is this vertical playing field.

00:40:19
And this is what has happened to women is we are. We are fighting for the crumbs. Fighting for the crumbs. That's your next. Yeah, fighting for the crumbs.

00:40:28
When God has called us actually to. He's given us all of these different gifts to work together as a body. And what if we just let people do what God called them to do? For real? For real.

00:40:42
And, you know, divide and conquer is the oldest trick in the book. We see it happening now politically, and it's. If we aren't together, that's how the other side wins. The dark forces. Yeah.

00:40:56
The greatest strategy out there is to have one scapegoat. But for those of us who are caring people, we realize there's nuance in the world. Right. And so although it can motivate a lot of people to do a lot of dark and horrible things and scapegoat a person, whether it's, you know, saying a DEI hire is what made the crash happen in the Potomac or whatever is happening. I hope that women hear this.

00:41:18
I hope that men hear this and understand the call to come together, bring those differences around the table, celebrate each other, these God given gifts to stand in awe and wonder and say, wow, look what God gave you for the benefit of all of us and that we can be deeply spiritual, however that looks together. And instead of pointing out each other's flaws, There was a moment I may have mentioned this when we did our previous interview, I don't remember, but I was in International Learning center, which if people don't know, is in a place near Richmond, Virginia. It's like in a farm area. And that's where missionaries being trained. Whether it's a short term missionary, like summer volunteer or where you're going career, you go there and you get trained.

00:42:00
So I've been there multiple times, both for MK retreats and as a child when my parents were going overseas and we lived there for a while and then also in my own journey multiple times and on one of our furlough times where we were on a stateside assignment, we were there. It was the last time I was there, I think. And they had a little women's event for us and they gave us a Bible, a Dorothy Patterson version of the Bible where she had, she was signing, yeah, she was signing these copies, which I'm like, the audacity, the hubris to autograph the Bible. But anyway, that's also another podcast, but I've never once thrown the Bible across the room. But I'm just gonna tell you, they gave me that.

00:42:37
I went straight back to my room, I threw that thing across the room into the trash can. And my kids were like, mom, why are you throwing Bible? And I was like, well, this is a woman named Dorothy Patterson and you need to know. But this is wrong. What she's saying about women is wrong.

00:42:49
And I, you know, I went to the Timothy, I went to the key passages, the ones they've like used to abuse us over the years. And her interpretations of that were completely unfounded. And she had her little section of it and that's when I threw it across the room. I was like, this is so ungodly. This is not the God that I worship.

00:43:06
How dare they give us this book. I was horrified. So these things we're talking about, they affect people, they affect women in a visceral way. Because when you know that God has gifted you and you see a whole system squashing God's gifts, quenching the Holy Spirit on a systemic level in a very robust way. It's righteous anger.

00:43:27
And so I hope that people read your book and come out of this with some calls to action. I'm going to have you stick around a little bit longer for our difference makers and ask you another question. There largely around was there anything surprising in your research as well as like, you know, what you kind of want people to understand from your writing. But thanks for being with us today and how can people find you and follow your writing? Oh sure.

00:43:47
Thanks for having me. So they can always find me at Beth Allison Barr, I'm on. Well, I'm on Blue Sky. I'm not sure how long I'll be on threads. I am on Instagram for a while and then also my website, Beth Ellison Barr I do have Becoming the Pastor's Wife will be out on March 18th.

00:44:02
So, so exciting. Pre order it everybody, you're gonna wanna read this one. It's going to be good. And thanks for being with us. Thank you.

00:44:11
Wow. Just wow. If you're feeling like a lump in your throat or maybe a fire in your gut right now, you're not alone. This conversation with Dr. Beth Allison Barr, it just cracked open something that's been buried for too long.

00:44:31
To every woman out there listening, that has poured yourself out in unseen, unpaid, uncredited, for the sake of someone else's calling, I want you to know that I see you. To every pastor's wife who's carried the weight of an entire church while being told her role was just to support. I hear you too. And to every woman who has silenced her own dreams, held her tongue, sacrificed her identity so that a man's vision could take center stage. I honor you because here's the truth.

00:45:12
The church was never meant to be built on the unpaid labor of women. It was never meant to thrive at the expense of your voice, your gifts and your calling. And yet for centuries, that's exactly what has happened. And not to every woman. Many have been blessed to be in spaces where they've had really better theology around them.

00:45:35
They've had better systems. It's never been perfect for anyone. But there's a huge difference between the churches we see treating women and some of the ways we see women being treated today. And how it was in the way Jesus intended it to be and in the ways that we even see women in the Middle Ages at times experiencing more freedom to fulfill their God given gifts and to lead and to be in charge of ministries than in some cases we even do today. But today we just we name it, we grieve it, but we do not stay here.

00:46:11
So what do we do? We start by telling the truth. No more self muting. No more apologizing for wanting more because God has put something in you that's more than just supporting a man's dreams or implementing the visions of a man. You are a whole person with your own God given gifts, with your own dreams, desires, visions for how you want the world to be a better place.

00:46:36
No more asking yourself, you know, what would my husband do? Or what would the pastor do, but what would what is God leading you to do? No more making yourself small so that others can feel big. You are not just an accessory to someone else's dream. You have your own.

00:46:52
And you are worthy. Those dreams are worthy. If this conversation hit home for you, if you felt something kind of shift inside, please don't let it stop here. Share this episode with a friend who needs to hear it. Start asking those hard questions in your community and most importantly, give yourself permission to take up space.

00:47:15
Because the church, the world, needs your full, unapologetic presence. Beth's work is proof that history doesn't have to keep repeating itself, but change. Well, that starts with us. I love you, I see you and I cannot wait to hear how you step into what's next. Until next time.

00:47:35
Let's go make a difference. Before we go, I just want to take a moment to thank you. Yes, you. The fact that you're here, tuning in, leaning into these conversations and doing the hard and beautiful work of making a difference in this world, it means everything to me in this episode. If it spoke to you, if it brought you healing, hope, or even just a new perspective, I'd love for you to help us spread the word.

00:48:01
Subscribe to the podcast, leave us a review and share this episode with someone you think might need to hear it. Your support helps this community grow and also helps us to keep having these important conversations. You are such a vital part of this journey and every time you listen, every time you share, you remind me of why we do this. Because you are out there making a difference in your own beautiful, messy and imperfect way. And that that matters more than you know.

00:48:32
So thank you for being here, thank you for showing up, and thank you for making the world a little brighter, a little kinder, and a little more whole. Until next time, take care of yourself and keep making a difference. You are loved.