Dr. Julie Faith Parker on Eve Isn't Evil: Feminist Readings of Misunderstood Bible Characters


Have you heard the myths about feminist readings of the Bible? Some common myths include: feminist interpretations of the Bible are anti-male, feminist readings ignore traditional religious teachings, and feminist perspectives on the Bible are not rooted in scholarly research. Our guest, Dr. Julie Faith Parker, will share the truth, dispel these myths, and provide a deeper understanding of the feminist perspectives found in biblical texts.
Have you heard the myths about feminist readings of the Bible? Some common myths include: feminist interpretations of the Bible are anti-male, feminist readings ignore traditional religious teachings, and feminist perspectives on the Bible are not rooted in scholarly research. Our guest, Dr. Julie Faith Parker, will share the truth, dispel these myths, and provide a deeper understanding of the feminist perspectives found in biblical texts.
My special guest is Dr. Julie Faith Parker
Our guest today is Dr. Julie Faith Parker, an accomplished biblical scholar and author of the book "Eve Isn't Evil: Feminist Readings of the Bible to Upend Our Assumptions." With a distinguished background in ancient languages, including Hebrew, Greek, and Aramaic, Dr. Parker brings a wealth of expertise to the discussion. Her extensive research focuses on the cultural and linguistic nuances of the biblical world, providing valuable insights into feminist interpretations of biblical texts. As a visiting scholar at Union Theological Seminary and a biblical scholar in residence at Marble Collegiate Church in New York City, Dr. Parker's work has garnered widespread acclaim for its scholarly depth and thought-provoking perspectives. We are honored to have her join us on the show today.
The past is a foreign country. They do things differently there. - Dr. Julie Faith Parker
In this episode, you will be able to:
- Explore feminist perspectives in the Bible to uncover hidden narratives and empower your understanding.
- Gain insight into the cultural context of biblical times, shedding light on the lives of women in the ancient world.
- Discover the significance of understanding original languages to unveil deeper meanings within biblical texts.
- Challenge traditional interpretations of the Bible to embrace diverse and inclusive perspectives.
- Experience the transformative and empowering nature of the Psalms through a feminist lens.
Discovering the Significance of Original Languages
The episode emphasizes the value of studying the Bible in its original languages. Such study provides valuable insights into the minds of biblical figures and bypasses the influence of interpretive decisions made by translators. By examining the scripture in Hebrew, Greek, Latin, and other languages, listeners can discover new nuances, foster a deeper understanding of the texts, and challenge commonly accepted interpretations.
The resources mentioned in this episode are:
- To purchase Julie Faith Parker's book Eve Isn't Evil, visit her website at JuliefaithParker.com.
- Join the Difference Makers community on Patreon to access exclusive episodes, engage with guests, and participate in polls to shape the future of the podcast. Visit www.patreon.com/aworldofdifference to join for as little as $5 a month.
- Engage with Lori and other listeners in the Difference Makers community to access exclusive content and connect with like-minded individuals.
- Explore the Difference Makers community on Patreon to access deeper episodes with guests like Julie Faith Parker and gain insights into their perspectives and experiences.
- Subscribe to the Difference Makers community on Patreon to access all past and future episodes, providing a wealth of content to explore and enjoy.
Gaining Insight into the Cultural Context
Understanding the cultural context that shaped the Bible's narratives, forms a significant part of the discussions in this episode. The biblical world, markedly different from today's society, had unique vocabularies, concepts, and societal structures that influence how we interpret the text. Grasping these aspects is vital to fully appreciate the texts and uncover hidden meanings obscured by modern perspectives.
The key moments in this episode are:
00:00:02 - Introduction to the Podcast
00:00:32 - Introducing Betterhelp
00:01:22 - Introducing Dr. Julie Faith Parker
00:03:18 - Understanding the Biblical World
00:08:08 - Importance of Language Study
00:14:08 - Reinterpreting the Psalms
00:16:43 - The Psalms in Latin America
00:18:26 - Teaching in Sing Sing
00:20:58 - Criminals in the Bible
00:27:17 - Feminist Lens on the Scriptures
00:28:22 - Feminist Interpretation of Scriptures
00:29:49 - Unique Filters in Reading Scriptures
00:31:32 - Family Struggles and Labels
00:35:35 - Reinterpretation of Eve
00:40:55 - Consequences of Punishments
00:41:04 - The Divine Mother and Daughter
00:42:22 - The Misinterpretation of Eve
00:44:50 - Feminist Lens on the Book of Job
00:48:26 - Job's Integrity and Feminist Takeaway
00:51:06 - Understanding Eve and Women in Ancient Scriptures
00:54:00 - Introduction to Difference Maker Community
00:54:40 - Exclusive Episodes and Community Benefits
00:55:03 - Call to Action
00:54:00 - Introduction to Difference Maker Community
00:54:40 - Exclusive Episodes and Community Benefits
All of us are different, but some people have labels that are put upon them that you live with because it's your ticket to services. It's how you hopefully can get some help, but that's not easy. - Dr. Julie Faith Parker
Exploring Feminist Perspectives in the Bible
The episode unveils a fresh outlook on biblical narratives by exploring feminist interpretations. By questioning traditional interpretations, particularly those that perpetuate inequality, and shedding light on the strength and resilience of women in the Bible, the episode underscores their crucial role in biblical stories. Such exploration of feminist perspectives can break away from the conventional interpretations, highlighting women's experiences, voices, and roles in the Bible.
Timestamped summary of this episode:
00:00:02 - Introduction to the Podcast
Lori introduces the podcast and its focus on making a difference for those who are different. She also highlights the importance of self-care for difference-makers.
00:00:32 - Introducing BetterHelp
Lori talks about the importance of seeking help and introduces Betterhelp.com/difference as the sponsor of the podcast, offering a 10% discount to listeners. She shares her personal experience with therapy and healing.
00:01:22 - Introducing Dr. Julie Faith Parker
Lori introduces Dr. Julie Faith Parker, a biblical scholar and author of "Eve isn't evil feminist readings of the Bible to upend our assumptions." She highlights Dr. Parker's extensive background and research interests.
00:03:18 - Understanding the Biblical World
Dr. Parker discusses the importance of understanding the cultural differences in the biblical world, emphasizing the tribal, age-integrated society and the absence of certain concepts like privacy, individualism, and race.
00:08:08 - Importance of Language Study
Dr. Parker shares her experience studying multiple languages and how it offers insights into the biblical texts. She emphasizes the importance of original languages to better understand cultural nuances and avoid the biases of translators.
00:14:08 - Reinterpreting the Psalms
Julie shares her experience of using the Psalms for spiritual connection during a dangerous encounter in Nicaragua. She highlights the cultural and biblical significance of the Psalms and the sense of worship they provide.
00:16:43 - The Psalms in Latin America
Julie reflects on her experience of singing the Psalms in Spanish during worship in Venezuela. She discusses the influence of liberation theology and the impact of the Psalms on her understanding of different types of liberation.
00:18:26 - Teaching in Sing Sing
Julie talks about her transformative experience teaching at Sing Sing Maximum security prison. She emphasizes the intelligence and capability of the incarcerated individuals and challenges the stigma surrounding people who have been incarcerated.
00:20:58 - Criminals in the Bible
Julie discusses the presence of individuals who committed crimes in the Bible, such as Cain, Moses, David, Jesus, and Paul. She emphasizes the importance of offering second chances and not being quick to judge incarcerated individuals.
00:27:17 - Feminist Lens on the Scriptures
Julie explains her choice of using a feminist lens to interpret the scriptures. She shares her experience of feeling empowered and discovering a different perspective on the story of Eve, challenging traditional interpretations.
00:28:22 - Feminist Interpretation of Scriptures
Julie discusses making the scriptures accessible to all, regardless of biblical education. Feminist interpretation liberated her and she hopes her book will do the same.
00:29:49 - Unique Filters in Reading Scriptures
Julie talks about the uniqueness of individual filters when reading scriptures. She relates it to her work in leadership development and emphasizes the relevance of the scriptures to human experiences.
00:31:32 - Family Struggles and Labels
Julie shares her family struggles, including her son's autism diagnosis and daughter's bipolar disorder. She highlights the importance of erasing the stigma associated with such conditions and finding help.
00:35:35 - Reinterpretation of Eve
Julie discusses her reinterpretation of Eve, emphasizing her curiosity and the blame unfairly placed on her. She delves into the translations and punishments related to Eve's story.
00:40:55 - Consequences of Punishments
Julie explores the consequences of the punishments given to Adam and Eve. She discusses the ideology and patriarchy reflected in the scriptures' portrayal of gender roles.
00:41:04 - The Divine Mother and Daughter
Julie discusses the relationship between Eve and God, highlighting the divine connection between mothers and daughters. She emphasizes that the presence of women together reflects the presence of the divine mother and daughter.
00:42:22 - The Misinterpretation of Eve
Julie delves into the misinterpretation of Eve's actions, pointing out the mistranslation of her words and the bias against her character in the biblical text. She challenges the traditional narrative and provides a feminist perspective on Eve.
00:44:50 - Feminist Lens on the Book of Job
Julie explores the feminist perspective in the book of Job, highlighting the portrayal of women characters and their significance in the narrative. She emphasizes the importance of interpreting the text through a feminist lens to uncover hidden biases.
00:48:26 - Job's Integrity and Feminist Takeaway
Julie discusses Job's refusal to accept blame and his unwavering integrity in the face of adversity. She interprets this as a feminist takeaway, emphasizing the importance of standing up against unfair accusations and holding onto one's truth.
00:51:06 - Understanding Eve and Women in Ancient Scriptures
Julie shares her insights on understanding Eve and women in ancient scriptures, highlighting the importance of reexamining the portrayal of women in religious texts. She encourages a deeper understanding of women's roles and experiences in ancient narratives.
00:54:00 - Introduction to Difference Maker Community
Lori introduces the Difference Maker Community where listeners can engage with guests and participate in polls to impact the podcast content for 2024.
00:54:40 - Exclusive Episodes and Community Benefits
Lori encourages joining the community to access exclusive episodes and interact with guests. Access is available for as little as $5 a month on patreon.com.
00:55:03 - Call to Action
Lori invites listeners to join the community and acknowledges their efforts in making a difference worldwide. She signs off with a reminder to continue making a difference.
00:54:00 - Introduction to Difference Maker Community
Lori introduces the Difference Maker Community where listeners can engage with guests and participate in polls to impact the podcast content for 2024.
00:54:40 - Exclusive Episodes and Community Benefits
Lori encourages joining the community to access exclusive episodes and interact with guests. Access is available for as little as $5 a month on www.patreon.com/difference.
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Keep making a difference wherever you are!
Lori Adams-Brown, Host & Executive Producer
A World of Difference Podcast
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Welcome to the a World of Difference
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podcast. I'm Lori Adams Brown and this is
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a podcast for those who are different and
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want to make a difference. I know many of
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you difference makers out there are
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that many of you write and tell me what
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you're doing and reach out to. And so I'm
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Today on the podcast we have a very
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exciting guest, Dr. Julie Faith Parker.
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Julie has written an incredible book that
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I have devoured called Eve isn't evil
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feminist readings of the Bible to upend
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our assumptions. Julie is incredible in
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terms of just she speaks and has studied
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eleven languages, mostly ancient. She
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enjoys speaking French and Spanish, but
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she's also a scholar. She's actually a
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visiting scholar at Union Theological
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Seminary and a biblical scholar in
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residence at Marble Collegiate Church,
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both in New York City. She was awarded a
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PhD with distinction in Old Testament
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Hebrew Bible from Yale University. She
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holds degrees from Hamilton College, Union
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theological seminary in New York City
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where she got her MDiV and Yale Divinity
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School. She lived during her studies in
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Paris while she was studying art history
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and in Costa Rica studying liberation
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theology. Her research interests focus on
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children in the Bible and feminist
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biblical interpretation, as well as near
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eastern languages and cultures. She's
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published many articles and written or
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edited eight books. Her teaching includes
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her role as professor of biblical studies
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at schools including General Theological
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Seminary there in New York City and
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Trinity Lutheran Seminary in Ohio as well
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as Colby College up in Maine, in addition
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to teaching at New York Theological
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Seminary, where her students were
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incarcerated in Sing Singh prison. And she
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writes about that in her book. Very
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excited to talk to her about that today.
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She's an ordained minister in the United
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Methodist Church, and Dr. Parker has
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worked full time in both congregational
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and campus ministry. I'm so thrilled to
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have her on the show today and for us to
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get to know her a little bit better
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together. So welcome to the show, Dr.
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Julie Faith Parker. Hello, Julie. And a
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very warm welcome to the. Awor of
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Difference podcast today. Thank you so
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much, Lori. I'm really delighted to be
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here. Yes, I'm delighted because I've
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really enjoyed. Your book Eve isn't evil,
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which is an incredible title, by the way.
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And I've really enjoyed reading your words
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and just your thoughtful process of both
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personal narrative as well as just the
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biblical text that you engage with. Even
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just some of the illustrations you have
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towards the back, especially, and even
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just leaning us toward curiosity as the
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book finishes. So I really hope people get
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their hands on your book. But today we're
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going to talk a little bit about it, why
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you wrote it, and what you're hoping the
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world kind of understands from your book.
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So your recent book, it helps readers
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understand the biblical world, which was
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certainly a world or many worlds away from
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the world we live in now. I mean, when we
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think about, even when you, it's very
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clear in the illustrations you include,
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the world that we're reading about is very
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different than the world we live in. And
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so I think that some of our western
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readers tend to, and I had the same
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discussion with Dr. Scott McKnight about
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his recent translation of the New
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Testament. Sometimes we read the
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scriptures here. I'm talking us based
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California, New York, wherever we are, and
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we think we're reading about our neighbor
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Amanda or whatever. But you're helping us
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understand. We need to keep in mind these
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are ancient texts right in the Bible that
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we're reading about. Help us understand
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why that's important and what your
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perspective is on all that. Sure. Perhaps
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you've heard the saying, the past is a
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foreign country. They do things
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differently there. I think because the
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Bible is so. Familiar to many of us, or
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certainly many of the stories, even though
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we don't read the Bible, we know a lot of
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those stories. We tend to make it more
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familiar. Than it actually should be
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because it is such a different culture. It
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was a tribal society. The world of
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biblical Israel was age integrated. For
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example, today, if you're a modern
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academic. You can go through decades of
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your life without a substantial
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conversation with a. Child unless you have
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children in your family circle. Not so in
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the biblical world. Children and adults
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were together all of the time. We see this
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in some of the vocabulary, how different
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it was. There's no word in the Hebrew
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Bible. For privacy, for example. There's
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no word for individual, for example. There
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is no word for religion because it's just
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life. There's no word for atheists, not
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adoption. So it's just a different way of
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thinking. Another example is there's no
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talk about. Race because the concept of
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race doesn't exist. It's a much late. I
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mean, there's lots of discrimination, but
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usually it's on the basis of where you're
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from, or perhaps class. But something as
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superficial as skin color. Is never
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brought up in the scriptures because this
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race is a much later economic concept that
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was created by people. Of Europeans
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descent to exploit and systematically.
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Torture people of african descent. It has
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nothing to do with the. Bible, and so it's
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also more egalitarian than we tend to
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think. Carol Myers is a scholar who
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taught. At duke for many years. And when
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she was president of the Society of
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Biblical Literature, she gave a paper. Her
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presidential address was ancient Israel, a
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patriarchal society. And her answer was
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basically no, because it was so integrated
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and men and women were really dependent
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upon each. Thing, just one other thing to
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mention. It also comes at the same time,
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it comes through a fairly elitist lens.
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Because very few people could read and
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write in the ancient world. Most people
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probably never saw a written word in their
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entire lives and didn't really affect
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them. So these are all such huge cultural.
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Differences that we often forget about
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when. We read the Bible. But I think
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they're really important, especially. This
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elitist lens, because there are certain.
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Power dynamics that are ingrained in the
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text itself, and it helps be aware of
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them. Yes, the power dynamics, I feel
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like, is the conversation to have with
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american white evangelicals in particular
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right now. And I feel like sometimes a
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broken record bringing it up. But it is
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from my own background studying sociology.
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It was something that just sort of gave me
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a lens to see the world in a different
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way. And then I think for those who have
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read the Bible in other languages and
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those languages having primarily a lens of
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oppression as opposed to empire, and
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there's been a lot of conversation around
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this that there is a different nuance
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there. So tell us about your work as a
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Bible scholar. You've learned many
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different languages. Let us know what
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languages you studied and how they offer
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you insights on the scripture as well.
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Well, like you, I love to travel. And I
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love to study languages. I feel like it's
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such a window onto the world. Modern
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languages. I've studied French. I lived in
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Paris studying art history. I lived in
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Central America studying liberation
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theology. So French and Spanish also know
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some. German and some modern Hebrew. But
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it's really ancient languages where I
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spend more of my time. That, of course, is
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Hebrew and Greek. Aramaic, I've taught
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eugeritic. I've taught akadian. I've
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studied syriac and some Latin. So that
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Bible is a very linguistic field. I've
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studied eleven languages. That's not
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uncommon at all. But I tell my students
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when I teach Hebrew that this is your
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ticket. Into the mind of Moses. If you
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learn Aramaic, this is your. Ticket into
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the mind of Jesus and. Hebrew as well,
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because those were his scriptures. But you
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really get such a better understanding of
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how people think and what is important to
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them through the vocabulary, right? The
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vocabulary of a culture tells you. So much
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about it, it actually shapes our
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perception. The classic example, of
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course, is the innovate people. And
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they're, what, 50 some od words for snow?
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Whereas I just see white, flaky stuff here
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in Manhattan. It's like, oh, it's snow. Or
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color is another great example. The more
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words you have for different colors, the
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more colors you actually see. And so when
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we read the biblical. Text, if you could
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do it in original languages, you learn so
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much about. How people were thinking. And
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also you're not subject to the. Vagaries
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of the translators. I shouldn't say
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vagaries, I should say decisions. But to
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translate is always to interpret. And as
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someone who interprets the Bible for my
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own work, sometimes it's just. Amazing to
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me, read appalling some of the decisions
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that have been made, particularly
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regarding women. Oh, my goodness, yes,
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absolutely. I think that some of the
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listeners will absolutely relate to that.
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It could be new for some people listening.
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But I do remember when I had the
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realization many years ago, back when I
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was living in Singapore, that even though
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the majority of my colleagues in the
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mission agency where I work, which was
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southern Baptist, would be reading the,
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you know, it was one of those, you go to
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these annual meetings, people have the
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ESV. So you think, oh, that must be a good
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translation. So you buy it, you start
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reading it, and suddenly you realize, wow,
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right? I mean, you don't realize how
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you're being inundated with translation.
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And when I finally realized that this is
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an unabashedly complimentarian
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translation. I think those are their
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actual words. Right. I switched to the CEB
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because it just was like, I need something
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that has some women translators, not just
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white translators, too, but, like, african
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american, asian American, Latinos who help
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translate this, that those interpreters
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matter, because I totally agree. Any of us
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who speak multiple languages, and many of
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our listeners do understand translators,
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are making choices. So could you share a
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little bit about how these cross cultural
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experiences you've had, both in travel and
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just being abroad, studying abroad, and
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how they're relevant to these different
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books in the Bible? Sure. So I share a
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couple of stories in the book. It's a
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combination of academic knowledge and.
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Some very personal stories. And so I share
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some stories about. Times when I was
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abroad, because, as. You know, when you
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get out of. Your comfort zone, you're
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really on the growth edge. And so if you
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put yourself in a foreign culture,
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especially where they speak. Another
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language, you're going to be changed in
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some sort of way. And my hope is that more
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Americans will learn more languages. It's
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very easy to travel as an american and
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just speak English. And I think there's a
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real loss because you don't get to know
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people in the same kind of way. I, like
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you, have put myself in. These situations
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where I've really had to. Make my way
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feeling like the foreigner. And that's
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very educational as well, because I was.
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But some of these experiences I share. In
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the book on psalms called guns and psalms,
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I talk about how the psalms really speak
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to all of our emotions, unabashedly
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unafraid. And one of the emotions that
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they speak about is fear and how. I was in
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Nicaragua. I was in a town called Esteli,
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and I was going north to a small town
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called Hondaga. And the only way to get
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from. One place to another then was to
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hitchhike. Now, I need to add, I'm not a
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hitchhiker. This is not something I do in
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my real life. But it was the only way to.
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Get from one place to another. So here I
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was, this 20 something woman, by myself in
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a foreign country with a war going on. Oh,
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yes, let me throw that in. The war was
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going on, but I. Was convinced I needed to
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get to. This town to help out with this
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woman's construction team building a
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school. And so I hitchhiked, and I was.
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Waiting for a couple of hours in the hot
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tropical sun because everybody was. There
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was a mile along the stretch. Of mile
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stretch along the pan american highway,
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and there were scores of people lined up
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there. And finally this military truck
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pulled over and loud, a number of people.
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There were some soldiers nearby. They got
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on, and a number of. Us civilians got on
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as well. And we're driving along the pan
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american. Highway, and all of a sudden I
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realized, gosh, maybe it wasn't such a.
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Great idea to get on this military truck
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with armed personnel as we're going
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through this enemy territory. And then it
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got really tense because. The soldiers put
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on their guns and. The truck slowed down
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and they started shooting. And this whole
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time, Lori, what am I thinking of? I'm
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thinking of, of course, my old. Testament
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class, because I'm remembering my
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professor. Dr. Phyllis Tribble, from whom
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I learned. At union theological Seminary.
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And she was talking about psalm 121. And
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she said, people think of this psalm. I
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lift my knives to the hills. From whence
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cometh my help. She said, no, that's
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animism, looking to. The hills for help.
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Like the Nietzsche has a soldier. That's
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not it. It's really, I lift my knives to
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the hills. Parentheses, there are enemy
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soldiers in those hills from whence cometh
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my help. My help comes from the Lord who.
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Made heaven and earth. So while the
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shooting is going on. I'm thinking to
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myself, I lift my. Eyes to the hills
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whence cometh my help. My help comes the
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Lord who made heaven and earth. Then all
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of a sudden, I hear. One soldier yell,
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Lotango. Lotango. The shooting stops. I
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00:14:45,734 --> 00:14:48,710
see him in the hillside, and he pulls
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something, and he's coming back down
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toward the truck. And I'm sure he is
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carrying a dead soldier's gun. But it
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turns out what he has in his hand is an
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iguana. They were sport hunting for
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iguana, which Nicaraguans like to eat. But
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the whole time I thought I might die. So
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in retrospect, it's a little funny, but
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the fear was real, and it just was a real
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cultural experience, but at the same time,
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a really insightful biblical experience,
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because I was using the. Psalms the way
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people have used the. Psalms for
376
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millennia, to feel a connection. With God,
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to feel this sense of worship when you're
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away from a place of worship. And we can
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all use the psalms that night. Yeah, the
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psalms. It's just such a special book all
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by itself. Just take that one part out and
382
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to measure the impact would be innumerable
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on so many cultures and lives throughout
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the know, thousands of, you know, for me
385
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in my recent history, although for me,
386
00:15:52,106 --> 00:15:53,406
when I think of the psalms, the first
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thing I think of is singing the salmons in
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Spanish. Growing up in church in
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Venezuela, because a lot of our worship
390
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songs were just direct taken out of the
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scripture and put to latino style music,
392
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right? And so there would be a lot of hip
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swaying. And there was a woman in front of
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me often when I was a kid, and she was an
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00:16:14,174 --> 00:16:16,626
Amazon woman. And so even my eye level was
396
00:16:16,626 --> 00:16:18,086
right at her rear end, and her rear would
397
00:16:18,086 --> 00:16:20,086
go back and forth, swaying to the psalms.
398
00:16:20,086 --> 00:16:23,158
And so I think of this embodied version of
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actual dancing and freedom. And like you
400
00:16:26,822 --> 00:16:28,246
mentioned, liberation theology. I think a
401
00:16:28,246 --> 00:16:31,914
lot of my theology was formed by that, as
402
00:16:31,914 --> 00:16:34,838
well as the songs we sang about different
403
00:16:34,838 --> 00:16:37,754
types of liberation and how captives are
404
00:16:37,754 --> 00:16:40,114
set free and how oppressive governments or
405
00:16:40,114 --> 00:16:44,046
corrupt governments can make life hard.
406
00:16:44,046 --> 00:16:45,966
And so those were the realities of growing
407
00:16:45,966 --> 00:16:48,830
up in Latin America. But in a more recent
408
00:16:48,830 --> 00:16:52,430
sense, having walked through spiritual
409
00:16:52,430 --> 00:16:55,082
abuse on a staff at a church here in
410
00:16:55,082 --> 00:16:58,446
Silicon Valley, it was being away from the
411
00:16:58,446 --> 00:17:00,466
walls of the church, being on the cliffs
412
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in Santa Cruz, watching the ocean, and
413
00:17:02,766 --> 00:17:05,890
reading the psalms that helped me connect
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with God and the rescuing help. Like the
415
00:17:09,034 --> 00:17:11,286
Ezer. Right, the kind of God that rescues
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00:17:11,286 --> 00:17:13,990
us when we're desperate for help. It gave
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00:17:13,990 --> 00:17:16,274
me a depth to my understanding of the
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00:17:16,274 --> 00:17:18,534
psalms that I had, and it connected me of
419
00:17:18,534 --> 00:17:22,586
a history of both Christianity and also
420
00:17:22,586 --> 00:17:24,346
the history of what it must have meant for
421
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the writers of the psalms to write these
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00:17:26,314 --> 00:17:29,318
things. And I think that you mentioned
423
00:17:29,318 --> 00:17:32,446
earlier, being an individual, it's not a
424
00:17:32,446 --> 00:17:35,674
part of many cultures. It's a very western
425
00:17:35,674 --> 00:17:37,930
focused concept. But my experience in
426
00:17:37,930 --> 00:17:40,494
Indonesia, Singapore, Venezuela, growing
427
00:17:40,494 --> 00:17:42,826
up was not about being an individual
428
00:17:42,826 --> 00:17:44,750
Christian as much as it was being in
429
00:17:44,750 --> 00:17:47,586
community. And the psalms helped me feel
430
00:17:47,586 --> 00:17:49,314
to be a part of that community. And so I
431
00:17:49,314 --> 00:17:51,310
agree. There's something so deep about the
432
00:17:51,310 --> 00:17:53,806
song psalms. You also have. One of my
433
00:17:53,806 --> 00:17:56,958
favorite chapters in your book is about
434
00:17:56,958 --> 00:18:01,222
teaching at Sing Singh maximum prison. And
435
00:18:01,222 --> 00:18:03,234
your chapter has to do with the song of
436
00:18:03,234 --> 00:18:05,186
psalms. And sing, sing. It's almost like a
437
00:18:05,186 --> 00:18:08,214
tongue twister to say the chapter title
438
00:18:08,214 --> 00:18:10,642
you taught, and I can only imagine the
439
00:18:10,642 --> 00:18:12,006
fear. You kind of walk through that in the
440
00:18:12,006 --> 00:18:13,914
book a little bit. Prisons really are,
441
00:18:13,914 --> 00:18:15,178
though, a different world from what most
442
00:18:15,178 --> 00:18:17,146
of us know in our daily lives. So what was
443
00:18:17,146 --> 00:18:19,398
it like for you to teach there at Singh
444
00:18:19,398 --> 00:18:21,406
Singh Maximum security prison? What did
445
00:18:21,406 --> 00:18:23,870
you learn, and how do these insights
446
00:18:23,870 --> 00:18:26,974
inform your own reading of the Bible? I
447
00:18:26,974 --> 00:18:31,102
really loved it. Lori. Again, it was a
448
00:18:31,102 --> 00:18:32,906
very different context. From anything I'd
449
00:18:32,906 --> 00:18:35,546
known before. I didn't know anyone
450
00:18:35,546 --> 00:18:37,726
previously who was incarcerated. I think
451
00:18:37,726 --> 00:18:41,006
I'd been to a prison once on a trip with a
452
00:18:41,006 --> 00:18:43,042
church. Group, but I really knew so little
453
00:18:43,042 --> 00:18:45,474
about it. But I honestly believe that God
454
00:18:45,474 --> 00:18:48,434
just. Put it on my heart because I just
455
00:18:48,434 --> 00:18:51,410
felt deeply compelled to teach inside of
456
00:18:51,410 --> 00:18:54,054
prison. And so after some persistence, I
457
00:18:54,054 --> 00:18:56,006
was able to teach, which I really wanted
458
00:18:56,006 --> 00:18:58,834
to do. I was able to teach with New York
459
00:18:58,834 --> 00:19:01,098
Theological Seminary. They're located here
460
00:19:01,098 --> 00:19:02,746
in Manhattan, but they have a program.
461
00:19:02,746 --> 00:19:05,142
They call it their north campus Sing Singh
462
00:19:05,142 --> 00:19:07,690
prison, and it's the only master's degree
463
00:19:07,690 --> 00:19:10,454
program within New York City. And it's a
464
00:19:10,454 --> 00:19:12,620
wonderful program. It's a very competitive
465
00:19:12,620 --> 00:19:15,086
program. I think they had 54 men apply.
466
00:19:15,086 --> 00:19:17,326
For 13 seats, something like that. So they
467
00:19:17,326 --> 00:19:19,262
were really good students, and they all
468
00:19:19,262 --> 00:19:22,058
wanted to be there. And the volunteer
469
00:19:22,058 --> 00:19:23,486
coordinator, when I was. Undergoing my
470
00:19:23,486 --> 00:19:25,186
training, she said, this is. The cream of
471
00:19:25,186 --> 00:19:27,714
the prison problem, and I believe that. So
472
00:19:27,714 --> 00:19:29,586
in some ways, what I'm sharing. Is very
473
00:19:29,586 --> 00:19:32,466
much from my own limited perspective. I
474
00:19:32,466 --> 00:19:35,234
know that people have had much. Harder,
475
00:19:35,234 --> 00:19:37,278
much more difficult experiences as
476
00:19:37,278 --> 00:19:39,386
chaplains. And as directions on site
477
00:19:39,386 --> 00:19:42,758
prison. But for me, it was really joyful.
478
00:19:42,758 --> 00:19:45,734
It was really joyful. I just loved talking
479
00:19:45,734 --> 00:19:48,166
about the scriptures with these men. They
480
00:19:48,166 --> 00:19:50,418
did all the reading. They had the time,
481
00:19:50,418 --> 00:19:51,770
they did all the reading. So they were
482
00:19:51,770 --> 00:19:55,258
really excellent students, two of them in
483
00:19:55,258 --> 00:19:57,514
particular. Honestly, if they'd been born
484
00:19:57,514 --> 00:19:59,414
into another. Life, they would have been
485
00:19:59,414 --> 00:20:01,626
professors, I think. They were so bright.
486
00:20:01,626 --> 00:20:03,646
They were such good writers. And actually,
487
00:20:03,646 --> 00:20:05,694
I have another book, my so called Biblical
488
00:20:05,694 --> 00:20:08,926
Life, in which I. Published their essays,
489
00:20:08,926 --> 00:20:11,278
their class essays, and. That was part of
490
00:20:11,278 --> 00:20:13,486
my motivation for. That book, because I
491
00:20:13,486 --> 00:20:14,574
wanted to get. Their names out in the
492
00:20:14,574 --> 00:20:16,606
world in. A positive way, not just their
493
00:20:16,606 --> 00:20:19,026
crimes or help to do that. They've done a
494
00:20:19,026 --> 00:20:22,706
lot themselves, too. But some of the
495
00:20:22,706 --> 00:20:25,234
things that I. Learned were, one, I really
496
00:20:25,234 --> 00:20:27,574
try not. To speak of prisoners. I try to
497
00:20:27,574 --> 00:20:30,630
speak of people who've been incarcerated,
498
00:20:30,630 --> 00:20:33,206
because these men were, as I said, they
499
00:20:33,206 --> 00:20:35,266
were just born into. Really difficult
500
00:20:35,266 --> 00:20:37,426
situations of poverty and gang ridden
501
00:20:37,426 --> 00:20:39,110
neighborhoods. And if I'm honest with
502
00:20:39,110 --> 00:20:41,014
myself, if I'd been born into a
503
00:20:41,014 --> 00:20:42,346
neighborhood like. That, I know my life
504
00:20:42,346 --> 00:20:44,186
would be really different. And if I were
505
00:20:44,186 --> 00:20:47,946
in that pipeline. Of sending men of color
506
00:20:47,946 --> 00:20:51,774
to prison, who knows? Really? Who knows?
507
00:20:51,774 --> 00:20:54,574
But another thing that happened through
508
00:20:54,574 --> 00:20:57,326
that experience was I really learned to
509
00:20:57,326 --> 00:21:00,170
know the Bible better. I just started
510
00:21:00,170 --> 00:21:02,846
noticing all the people who commit crimes
511
00:21:02,846 --> 00:21:07,030
in the Bible. So we have Cain, okay,
512
00:21:07,030 --> 00:21:09,470
that's Genesis four. He murders his
513
00:21:09,470 --> 00:21:10,786
brother, okay? So we don't have to get
514
00:21:10,786 --> 00:21:12,146
very far. And in the same chapter, you
515
00:21:12,146 --> 00:21:14,558
have. Lamech who says he murders someone.
516
00:21:14,558 --> 00:21:16,450
That's two murders, right away, chapter
517
00:21:16,450 --> 00:21:18,438
four. But what does God do with Cain? Put
518
00:21:18,438 --> 00:21:20,806
a mark on him to protect him. And then we
519
00:21:20,806 --> 00:21:23,206
get to Exodus, chapter two. I think it's
520
00:21:23,206 --> 00:21:27,554
just two verses, 1112. But Moses, after he
521
00:21:27,554 --> 00:21:30,198
grows up, he. Sees an Egyptian beating a
522
00:21:30,198 --> 00:21:32,506
Hebrew. He looks this way and that kills
523
00:21:32,506 --> 00:21:34,714
the Egyptian, buries him in the sand and
524
00:21:34,714 --> 00:21:38,022
then flees. So that's murder. A crime of
525
00:21:38,022 --> 00:21:41,398
passion perhaps, but he's a murderer and
526
00:21:41,398 --> 00:21:44,106
he's a fugitive. That's Moses. We're in
527
00:21:44,106 --> 00:21:46,702
chapter two of Exodus. If you take him,
528
00:21:46,702 --> 00:21:49,226
you lock him up, throw away the key. The
529
00:21:49,226 --> 00:21:51,114
Bible's done, Lori. Okay. We're only in
530
00:21:51,114 --> 00:21:53,680
Exodus, chapter two. That's the end of the
531
00:21:53,680 --> 00:21:57,266
story. And then, of course, we have David.
532
00:21:57,266 --> 00:22:00,322
So David's name means beloved. He is
533
00:22:00,322 --> 00:22:02,046
probably the most beloved character in the
534
00:22:02,046 --> 00:22:03,486
Hebrew Bible. He's certainly the character
535
00:22:03,486 --> 00:22:05,214
who's named the most. I believe it's over
536
00:22:05,214 --> 00:22:08,258
1000 times. And he is a premeditated
537
00:22:08,258 --> 00:22:10,434
murderer. He breaks half of the ten
538
00:22:10,434 --> 00:22:13,266
commandments, he takes another man's wife,
539
00:22:13,266 --> 00:22:15,702
commits adultery. And then really works
540
00:22:15,702 --> 00:22:19,602
hard to have Uriah killed. So he's a
541
00:22:19,602 --> 00:22:21,306
premeditated murderer. Then you get to the
542
00:22:21,306 --> 00:22:22,874
New Testament. Who are the two most famous
543
00:22:22,874 --> 00:22:26,774
people there? Jesus and Paul. Jesus is
544
00:22:26,774 --> 00:22:29,046
brought up for the crime. Of treason and
545
00:22:29,046 --> 00:22:30,942
he's executed as a criminal in the worst
546
00:22:30,942 --> 00:22:33,514
possible way through crucifixion. And Paul
547
00:22:33,514 --> 00:22:36,746
writes a number of his. Letters from
548
00:22:36,746 --> 00:22:39,434
Philemon, of Philippians, of the authentic
549
00:22:39,434 --> 00:22:43,186
polling letters. So these people, whom we
550
00:22:43,186 --> 00:22:46,478
would see as criminals, are heroes of the
551
00:22:46,478 --> 00:22:48,690
Bible. Really, the superstars, the four
552
00:22:48,690 --> 00:22:52,286
top people. Of the entire Bible, are all
553
00:22:52,286 --> 00:22:56,322
criminals. And so I think that helps me.
554
00:22:56,322 --> 00:22:58,786
To maybe be a little less quick. To judge
555
00:22:58,786 --> 00:23:01,186
folks who are incarcerated because we
556
00:23:01,186 --> 00:23:04,210
don't remember Moses, David, Jesus and
557
00:23:04,210 --> 00:23:06,118
Paul for the worst thing that they've ever
558
00:23:06,118 --> 00:23:10,090
done. We give them another chance, right?
559
00:23:10,090 --> 00:23:14,554
Yeah, we do. It is interesting to hear you
560
00:23:14,554 --> 00:23:17,146
say it that way, even after having read
561
00:23:17,146 --> 00:23:19,546
what you wrote. And I think about, like,
562
00:23:19,546 --> 00:23:22,814
my Father for many years was a chaplain in
563
00:23:22,814 --> 00:23:25,662
a jail in New Mexico, which had had some
564
00:23:25,662 --> 00:23:29,806
pretty horrific situations where there had
565
00:23:29,806 --> 00:23:31,626
been some beheadings of some of the
566
00:23:31,626 --> 00:23:34,498
guards. And it was just a pretty brutal
567
00:23:34,498 --> 00:23:39,666
kind of prison break years before. And his
568
00:23:39,666 --> 00:23:43,230
experience and his stories were just
569
00:23:43,230 --> 00:23:44,786
incredible. I mean, I feel like some of
570
00:23:44,786 --> 00:23:46,926
the inmates he worked with and taught
571
00:23:46,926 --> 00:23:49,062
seminary classes, too, and also provided
572
00:23:49,062 --> 00:23:51,266
whatever religion they had, the
573
00:23:51,266 --> 00:23:52,406
paraphernalia from their own religion, and
574
00:23:52,406 --> 00:23:54,406
would have discussions with them about
575
00:23:54,406 --> 00:23:55,846
their faith, whatever their faith was,
576
00:23:55,846 --> 00:23:58,166
whether it was some native american
577
00:23:58,166 --> 00:24:02,454
indigenous practices or with nation of
578
00:24:02,454 --> 00:24:03,626
Islam, all these different religions. So
579
00:24:03,626 --> 00:24:06,618
he always had fascinating stories, but
580
00:24:06,618 --> 00:24:09,014
especially with his kind of teaching
581
00:24:09,014 --> 00:24:10,510
seminary classes, he had a pretty similar
582
00:24:10,510 --> 00:24:12,158
experience. People were well prepared.
583
00:24:12,158 --> 00:24:14,960
There were some really intelligent inmates
584
00:24:14,960 --> 00:24:18,254
who maybe had been raised in situations
585
00:24:18,254 --> 00:24:21,280
where their classical education had not
586
00:24:21,280 --> 00:24:24,606
been the same level as had they been
587
00:24:24,606 --> 00:24:26,402
raised in a zip code where the property
588
00:24:26,402 --> 00:24:29,374
value was higher, for example. But the
589
00:24:29,374 --> 00:24:31,394
intelligence and capability of learning
590
00:24:31,394 --> 00:24:35,746
and their desire to learn very high in
591
00:24:35,746 --> 00:24:37,506
some of these cases. And I was always
592
00:24:37,506 --> 00:24:39,186
fascinated, and still am, when I hear my
593
00:24:39,186 --> 00:24:41,334
dad tell those stories, because I think we
594
00:24:41,334 --> 00:24:44,966
have a lot of stigma around people who
595
00:24:44,966 --> 00:24:48,934
have been incarcerated. And when you talk
596
00:24:48,934 --> 00:24:52,186
about the lens of the scripture, through
597
00:24:52,186 --> 00:24:54,634
what you just mentioned, how many people
598
00:24:54,634 --> 00:24:57,306
had been incarcerated that are heroes of
599
00:24:57,306 --> 00:24:59,146
the faith, it really does sort of give us
600
00:24:59,146 --> 00:25:01,440
a whole different way of approaching it
601
00:25:01,440 --> 00:25:04,206
and. A whole different conversation to
602
00:25:04,206 --> 00:25:05,934
have, and. Hopefully a lot more compassion
603
00:25:05,934 --> 00:25:09,486
on ourselves and on our communities and
604
00:25:09,486 --> 00:25:11,886
also the justice system that is part of
605
00:25:11,886 --> 00:25:14,842
our wherever country we live in. How we
606
00:25:14,842 --> 00:25:16,818
handle people who commit crimes is a part
607
00:25:16,818 --> 00:25:19,426
of our faith journey. Right? It's so true.
608
00:25:19,426 --> 00:25:22,098
And God bless your dad. That's such
609
00:25:22,098 --> 00:25:24,898
important work that he did. I feel that
610
00:25:24,898 --> 00:25:27,526
education is so transformative for all of
611
00:25:27,526 --> 00:25:29,078
us. It certainly has transformed my life,
612
00:25:29,078 --> 00:25:31,366
and. I'm sure yours, too, but especially
613
00:25:31,366 --> 00:25:34,374
for people who are incarcerated, because
614
00:25:34,374 --> 00:25:38,582
it does so much not only for a person's
615
00:25:38,582 --> 00:25:40,454
sense of their intelligence, but also
616
00:25:40,454 --> 00:25:43,338
their self esteem. Someone who works in
617
00:25:43,338 --> 00:25:46,042
the correction system. Told me that when
618
00:25:46,042 --> 00:25:48,294
people become better. Educated, it
619
00:25:48,294 --> 00:25:49,834
improves their relationships with the
620
00:25:49,834 --> 00:25:51,354
people that they're with, whether it's
621
00:25:51,354 --> 00:25:53,338
corrections officers or other people with
622
00:25:53,338 --> 00:25:55,934
whom they're incarcerated, and also with
623
00:25:55,934 --> 00:25:58,906
their families, and also it improves their
624
00:25:58,906 --> 00:26:00,750
hygiene. That one surprised me. But it's
625
00:26:00,750 --> 00:26:03,214
because people's self esteem improves and
626
00:26:03,214 --> 00:26:06,454
their sense of themselves improves, and.
627
00:26:06,454 --> 00:26:08,354
That'S invaluable, especially because most
628
00:26:08,354 --> 00:26:10,226
people get released and come back on the
629
00:26:10,226 --> 00:26:13,374
outside. We want people who are able to.
630
00:26:13,374 --> 00:26:14,626
Contribute to society, and that's what
631
00:26:14,626 --> 00:26:16,594
they want to do, too. But we need to help
632
00:26:16,594 --> 00:26:20,854
give those tools. Absolutely, 100% agree
633
00:26:20,854 --> 00:26:23,174
with that. And there are some really great
634
00:26:23,174 --> 00:26:24,614
people. Doing some really good work out
635
00:26:24,614 --> 00:26:27,618
there. It's pretty cool to see. I want to
636
00:26:27,618 --> 00:26:29,800
shift gears for a second and talk about
637
00:26:29,800 --> 00:26:32,506
how Eve isn't evil, which is, once again,
638
00:26:32,506 --> 00:26:38,700
such a. Great title. When you were writing
639
00:26:38,700 --> 00:26:42,238
it. You're looking at different sections
640
00:26:42,238 --> 00:26:44,126
of the Bible through a feminist lens. I
641
00:26:44,126 --> 00:26:46,298
know that for me personally, feminist
642
00:26:46,298 --> 00:26:48,202
theologians have been very helpful, and I
643
00:26:48,202 --> 00:26:50,990
include the muhedistas, the womanist
644
00:26:50,990 --> 00:26:54,462
theologians, women of color in that,
645
00:26:54,462 --> 00:26:56,894
because that extra layer of people's
646
00:26:56,894 --> 00:26:58,354
perspective of not just being a woman, but
647
00:26:58,354 --> 00:27:01,458
from being different cultures, necessarily
648
00:27:01,458 --> 00:27:03,426
from the white male theologians, which is
649
00:27:03,426 --> 00:27:05,502
the predominant theologians I read in
650
00:27:05,502 --> 00:27:08,454
seminary at least, and for many years. So
651
00:27:08,454 --> 00:27:10,226
why did you choose this approach, a
652
00:27:10,226 --> 00:27:12,246
feminist lens on the scriptures? And how
653
00:27:12,246 --> 00:27:15,830
was it helpful in writing this book?
654
00:27:15,830 --> 00:27:17,714
Again, I have to tell you, Laura. I really
655
00:27:17,714 --> 00:27:20,834
felt called to do it. I believe the Holy
656
00:27:20,834 --> 00:27:23,722
Spirit put it on my heart, but also, this
657
00:27:23,722 --> 00:27:26,554
is how I fell in love with the Bible. I
658
00:27:26,554 --> 00:27:28,746
really felt like it was an otherizing
659
00:27:28,746 --> 00:27:30,346
story. Honestly, I didn't know that it
660
00:27:30,346 --> 00:27:32,486
had. That much to do with me until I
661
00:27:32,486 --> 00:27:34,106
started reading it through a feminist
662
00:27:34,106 --> 00:27:36,602
lens. And that was again held by my.
663
00:27:36,602 --> 00:27:39,306
Professor, Dr. Phyllis tribble at Union
664
00:27:39,306 --> 00:27:40,526
theological. Seminary, who, as you know,
665
00:27:40,526 --> 00:27:43,646
is really. The foremother of feminist
666
00:27:43,646 --> 00:27:45,678
biblical interpretation for the hebrew
667
00:27:45,678 --> 00:27:48,482
scriptures. And in her lectures, I would
668
00:27:48,482 --> 00:27:51,874
just sit there, enraptured and empowered,
669
00:27:51,874 --> 00:27:54,130
and started to feel like, wait, this story
670
00:27:54,130 --> 00:27:57,154
about Eve is not what they've been telling
671
00:27:57,154 --> 00:27:59,894
me. What? It doesn't mention anything
672
00:27:59,894 --> 00:28:02,054
about original sin or the fall. Those
673
00:28:02,054 --> 00:28:04,694
words are nowhere in this chapter or this
674
00:28:04,694 --> 00:28:06,626
whole story. It's not that long a story.
675
00:28:06,626 --> 00:28:09,894
Genesis two, three, they're nowhere. But
676
00:28:09,894 --> 00:28:12,346
why is that all anyone knows about Eve?
677
00:28:12,346 --> 00:28:14,298
And the more I began to learn and the more
678
00:28:14,298 --> 00:28:16,842
I got the tools. To delve deeper into the
679
00:28:16,842 --> 00:28:19,530
text, the more exciting I found. And I
680
00:28:19,530 --> 00:28:21,974
thought, I just want to share what I've
681
00:28:21,974 --> 00:28:24,046
learned. Hopefully, in a way that people
682
00:28:24,046 --> 00:28:26,382
will. Find accessible, hopefully in a way
683
00:28:26,382 --> 00:28:28,526
that. People who haven't been to seminary
684
00:28:28,526 --> 00:28:30,202
or even don't know anything about the
685
00:28:30,202 --> 00:28:32,414
Bible. But are just a little curious,
686
00:28:32,414 --> 00:28:33,934
will. Feel like they're brought along for
687
00:28:33,934 --> 00:28:35,726
the journey and not left on the side. If
688
00:28:35,726 --> 00:28:37,698
they haven't had a whole lot of biblical
689
00:28:37,698 --> 00:28:39,634
education, because I really knew. Very
690
00:28:39,634 --> 00:28:41,106
little about the Bible, honestly, until. I
691
00:28:41,106 --> 00:28:42,958
went to seminary. And a lot of people
692
00:28:42,958 --> 00:28:44,594
don't have that opportunity. So I'm hoping
693
00:28:44,594 --> 00:28:47,730
this book will help people to discover the
694
00:28:47,730 --> 00:28:50,374
scriptures as an exciting, liberating,
695
00:28:50,374 --> 00:28:52,066
life giving word. Because that's what
696
00:28:52,066 --> 00:28:53,778
feminist interpretation did for. Me, and
697
00:28:53,778 --> 00:28:58,426
that's what I hope this brothers as well.
698
00:28:58,426 --> 00:29:03,978
I love that. Big proponent of just getting
699
00:29:03,978 --> 00:29:06,202
different perspectives on the scriptures.
700
00:29:06,202 --> 00:29:09,274
Because once again, it's not just one
701
00:29:09,274 --> 00:29:11,810
book. We call it the Bible, but it was
702
00:29:11,810 --> 00:29:14,142
written over such a long period of time,
703
00:29:14,142 --> 00:29:16,042
people in all these different contexts,
704
00:29:16,042 --> 00:29:19,434
largely under oppression, and
705
00:29:19,434 --> 00:29:20,746
understanding the context of all that
706
00:29:20,746 --> 00:29:23,294
matters. But even as some of the beauty of
707
00:29:23,294 --> 00:29:25,490
this literature is that as we read it
708
00:29:25,490 --> 00:29:27,858
today, it's still so relevant to the human
709
00:29:27,858 --> 00:29:29,890
experience and our own lived experiences
710
00:29:29,890 --> 00:29:32,622
today. But each of us have such different
711
00:29:32,622 --> 00:29:37,398
filters, and I do. I work in tech now in a
712
00:29:37,398 --> 00:29:40,386
company where I'm a senior manager of
713
00:29:40,386 --> 00:29:41,526
leadership and development. And I've been
714
00:29:41,526 --> 00:29:45,286
doing these leadership seminars in the UK
715
00:29:45,286 --> 00:29:47,366
with our people there, and then in Memphis
716
00:29:47,366 --> 00:29:49,798
and then recently here in our Fremont
717
00:29:49,798 --> 00:29:52,746
headquarters. And every time I do these
718
00:29:52,746 --> 00:29:54,774
kind of workshops, I'm training on
719
00:29:54,774 --> 00:29:56,138
communication skills and listen to
720
00:29:56,138 --> 00:29:58,938
understand for our leaders. And in my
721
00:29:58,938 --> 00:30:01,686
research for that, a guy at Stanford
722
00:30:01,686 --> 00:30:03,690
graduate business school was saying, the
723
00:30:03,690 --> 00:30:05,886
filters that we listen through are unique
724
00:30:05,886 --> 00:30:07,562
to each of us because of our
725
00:30:07,562 --> 00:30:08,794
personalities, our experiences, our
726
00:30:08,794 --> 00:30:11,726
cultures, our languages, our families,
727
00:30:11,726 --> 00:30:14,606
what we've been through our lives. And so
728
00:30:14,606 --> 00:30:16,402
everybody's filters are unique when we
729
00:30:16,402 --> 00:30:18,334
listen, and they are as unique, and this
730
00:30:18,334 --> 00:30:21,470
floored me as our fingerprint. So
731
00:30:21,470 --> 00:30:23,518
literally everyone that listens is
732
00:30:23,518 --> 00:30:25,602
listening. In a unique way. And I really
733
00:30:25,602 --> 00:30:27,554
believe as we read the scriptures, we're
734
00:30:27,554 --> 00:30:30,246
all reading it in unique ways. And so to
735
00:30:30,246 --> 00:30:32,626
kind of put us in a box of how we read it,
736
00:30:32,626 --> 00:30:34,646
it's not helping us. It was not intended
737
00:30:34,646 --> 00:30:38,390
for that. But you yourself, as a mother,
738
00:30:38,390 --> 00:30:40,806
are reading through the lens of a mother.
739
00:30:40,806 --> 00:30:43,254
You're also reading and writing in a
740
00:30:43,254 --> 00:30:45,754
scholarly way about your own family. And
741
00:30:45,754 --> 00:30:48,570
you write about, through the lens of your
742
00:30:48,570 --> 00:30:50,394
children and labels they've had to carry
743
00:30:50,394 --> 00:30:51,886
from their own differences. So you write
744
00:30:51,886 --> 00:30:54,378
about your son's autism diagnosis, your
745
00:30:54,378 --> 00:30:56,894
daughter's struggles with bipolar. How did
746
00:30:56,894 --> 00:30:59,006
this impact you and your writing and your
747
00:30:59,006 --> 00:31:03,342
work as a scholar? Part of it was a
748
00:31:03,342 --> 00:31:06,674
response to. Social media, because we all
749
00:31:06,674 --> 00:31:10,238
put out our beautifully curated worlds.
750
00:31:10,238 --> 00:31:12,658
I'm barely on social media, but you. Look
751
00:31:12,658 --> 00:31:14,642
at Instagram, you look at Facebook. And
752
00:31:14,642 --> 00:31:16,974
you see that everything looks so
753
00:31:16,974 --> 00:31:18,354
wonderful. And people are having such a
754
00:31:18,354 --> 00:31:20,550
great time. And his family is absolutely
755
00:31:20,550 --> 00:31:23,142
perfect, and. It'S just not real life. And
756
00:31:23,142 --> 00:31:25,526
so I wanted to. In response to that, I
757
00:31:25,526 --> 00:31:27,526
just wanted to share some of my struggles
758
00:31:27,526 --> 00:31:30,106
and. Some of my family struggles. And we
759
00:31:30,106 --> 00:31:33,354
talk about a world of difference. We're
760
00:31:33,354 --> 00:31:35,146
all different, right? Like, our filters
761
00:31:35,146 --> 00:31:36,678
are unique, as you just said, our
762
00:31:36,678 --> 00:31:38,202
fingerprints are unique. We're all
763
00:31:38,202 --> 00:31:42,682
different. But some people have labels
764
00:31:42,682 --> 00:31:45,262
that are put upon them and that you live.
765
00:31:45,262 --> 00:31:47,374
With because it's your ticket to services
766
00:31:47,374 --> 00:31:48,846
and it's how you hopefully can get some
767
00:31:48,846 --> 00:31:51,054
help. But that's not easy. We found out
768
00:31:51,054 --> 00:31:55,566
that my son was. He had this diagnosis. At
769
00:31:55,566 --> 00:31:57,194
the time, they called it Asperger's
770
00:31:57,194 --> 00:31:59,182
syndrome. Now we call it being on the
771
00:31:59,182 --> 00:32:00,818
spectrum. But he got this diagnosis when
772
00:32:00,818 --> 00:32:02,846
he. Was five years old because he just
773
00:32:02,846 --> 00:32:04,674
didn't have much interest in other
774
00:32:04,674 --> 00:32:07,246
children. And that's a tough number for a.
775
00:32:07,246 --> 00:32:10,774
Parent to be told your child's autistic,
776
00:32:10,774 --> 00:32:13,238
and I just had no idea what his future was
777
00:32:13,238 --> 00:32:16,294
going to be like. And we were able to get
778
00:32:16,294 --> 00:32:18,486
him. Services through the school a little
779
00:32:18,486 --> 00:32:21,866
bit on our own. I did some things for him
780
00:32:21,866 --> 00:32:24,442
I wish I had done more. Know, it's so
781
00:32:24,442 --> 00:32:26,780
hard. You always, you know, you can always
782
00:32:26,780 --> 00:32:30,198
do. He's. Yeah, you can always do more.
783
00:32:30,198 --> 00:32:32,250
That's really hard on moms, especially,
784
00:32:32,250 --> 00:32:35,818
like. There'S so much you can do. But now
785
00:32:35,818 --> 00:32:37,566
he's doing really well. I want to tell
786
00:32:37,566 --> 00:32:39,214
you, Lori, he's like a success story. He
787
00:32:39,214 --> 00:32:41,086
lives in Brooklyn, shares an apartment
788
00:32:41,086 --> 00:32:43,274
with my nephew. He works for Morgan Chase,
789
00:32:43,274 --> 00:32:46,322
pays all his own bills. He's doing great.
790
00:32:46,322 --> 00:32:49,426
And so you can get to the. Other side of
791
00:32:49,426 --> 00:32:51,220
it. I don't talk about that part in. The
792
00:32:51,220 --> 00:32:55,186
book, but it's there. And when we share
793
00:32:55,186 --> 00:32:58,450
these struggles, we feel less alone. My
794
00:32:58,450 --> 00:33:01,794
daughter, she's developed this show called
795
00:33:01,794 --> 00:33:04,770
Bipolar Badass. She started doing comedy
796
00:33:04,770 --> 00:33:07,026
sketches in New. York City about her
797
00:33:07,026 --> 00:33:08,934
bipolar disorder, and. Then she developed
798
00:33:08,934 --> 00:33:10,826
into a show that. She took on the fringe.
799
00:33:10,826 --> 00:33:12,918
She won emerging artist awards. She's
800
00:33:12,918 --> 00:33:15,546
performing in Europe. And her whole goal
801
00:33:15,546 --> 00:33:18,026
is to take away some of the stigma about
802
00:33:18,026 --> 00:33:20,666
having bipolar disorder, because people
803
00:33:20,666 --> 00:33:22,986
speak about having. Cancer, and then they
804
00:33:22,986 --> 00:33:25,098
get flooded with sympathy. You say that
805
00:33:25,098 --> 00:33:28,106
you're bipolar, and people use it as an
806
00:33:28,106 --> 00:33:29,406
expression that's derogatory. When they're
807
00:33:29,406 --> 00:33:31,546
having a bad day. Oh, I feel so bipolar.
808
00:33:31,546 --> 00:33:33,854
It's a serious, life threatening, chronic
809
00:33:33,854 --> 00:33:37,138
condition, and we need to recognize that,
810
00:33:37,138 --> 00:33:39,698
but also be grateful that it's treatable
811
00:33:39,698 --> 00:33:42,274
and. There are things you can do. And so
812
00:33:42,274 --> 00:33:45,566
she talks about her medication. And she
813
00:33:45,566 --> 00:33:46,866
talks about that in her routine. She talks
814
00:33:46,866 --> 00:33:49,926
about that in her show. And I talk a
815
00:33:49,926 --> 00:33:52,194
little bit in the book about how
816
00:33:52,194 --> 00:33:54,374
terrifying depression can be. I don't
817
00:33:54,374 --> 00:33:56,418
mention this, but I lost. A cousin to
818
00:33:56,418 --> 00:33:58,422
depression who took his. Own life, so I
819
00:33:58,422 --> 00:34:02,090
get how scary. It can be, but she's really
820
00:34:02,090 --> 00:34:04,746
working hard to combat that. And I think
821
00:34:04,746 --> 00:34:07,366
when we talk about. It, it helps us all to
822
00:34:07,366 --> 00:34:09,962
erase the stigma. It helps us all to find
823
00:34:09,962 --> 00:34:12,246
help. And for me, that's one of the. Great
824
00:34:12,246 --> 00:34:14,414
gifts of feminism. It helps us to feel
825
00:34:14,414 --> 00:34:16,446
less alone, and I hope that the book might
826
00:34:16,446 --> 00:34:20,654
do that in some small way, too. Yeah.
827
00:34:20,654 --> 00:34:22,698
Well, thank you so much for sharing that
828
00:34:22,698 --> 00:34:24,158
vulnerably. I think that many people
829
00:34:24,158 --> 00:34:27,454
listening to this podcast can relate both
830
00:34:27,454 --> 00:34:29,886
families who have somebody in their family
831
00:34:29,886 --> 00:34:32,562
that's on the autism spectrum, people that
832
00:34:32,562 --> 00:34:34,674
actually themselves are neurodiverse, that
833
00:34:34,674 --> 00:34:37,822
listen to the podcast, as well as people
834
00:34:37,822 --> 00:34:41,126
who suffer from bipolar and the stigma of
835
00:34:41,126 --> 00:34:43,362
it as well, as well as some of the
836
00:34:43,362 --> 00:34:46,034
complications medically from getting the
837
00:34:46,034 --> 00:34:47,174
treatments that. You need, which is a
838
00:34:47,174 --> 00:34:49,270
whole other. Kind of conversation as well,
839
00:34:49,270 --> 00:34:51,194
of marginalization, at least in the United
840
00:34:51,194 --> 00:34:53,594
States, that often people experience. And
841
00:34:53,594 --> 00:34:56,460
being a mother of children like that, but
842
00:34:56,460 --> 00:34:59,466
also seeing the struggle and hearing you
843
00:34:59,466 --> 00:35:02,746
talk about that as well as know hope that
844
00:35:02,746 --> 00:35:04,734
you give for what their lives are like
845
00:35:04,734 --> 00:35:06,766
now. And I'm really grateful to hear that
846
00:35:06,766 --> 00:35:08,862
you raised them in such a way as to where
847
00:35:08,862 --> 00:35:11,214
their differences could be something that
848
00:35:11,214 --> 00:35:13,138
could help them to make a difference in
849
00:35:13,138 --> 00:35:14,386
the lives of others. We will definitely
850
00:35:14,386 --> 00:35:16,386
check out bipolar badass, so we'll look
851
00:35:16,386 --> 00:35:20,770
for that. That sounds like a lot of.
852
00:35:20,770 --> 00:35:26,290
Badass. That's awesome. When we think
853
00:35:26,290 --> 00:35:28,354
about this book that you've written and
854
00:35:28,354 --> 00:35:30,214
such a gift. Thank you so much for all the
855
00:35:30,214 --> 00:35:33,346
hard work you put into it. Your
856
00:35:33,346 --> 00:35:34,962
interpretation of Eve, you mentioned this
857
00:35:34,962 --> 00:35:36,614
earlier. It's so different than what you
858
00:35:36,614 --> 00:35:40,002
were told. Most of us, when we think about
859
00:35:40,002 --> 00:35:41,846
Eve, especially in some of the white
860
00:35:41,846 --> 00:35:43,002
evangelical spaces here in the United
861
00:35:43,002 --> 00:35:45,606
States, a lot of us do think, or the
862
00:35:45,606 --> 00:35:47,830
narratives that we've heard some
863
00:35:47,830 --> 00:35:49,754
preachers, mostly men, say about her,
864
00:35:49,754 --> 00:35:51,914
well, she was the first to sin. She led
865
00:35:51,914 --> 00:35:55,550
Adam into sin. When you think about Eve
866
00:35:55,550 --> 00:35:57,262
now, especially after having written this
867
00:35:57,262 --> 00:35:59,774
book, kind of how do you understand her
868
00:35:59,774 --> 00:36:04,038
and why? I love her. She is one of my
869
00:36:04,038 --> 00:36:06,942
favorite Bible. Characters because she's
870
00:36:06,942 --> 00:36:09,810
curious, because she seeks knowledge,
871
00:36:09,810 --> 00:36:11,474
because she wants to know the. Difference
872
00:36:11,474 --> 00:36:13,026
between good and evil as she. Makes her
873
00:36:13,026 --> 00:36:15,438
way in the world, that's ethics. I think
874
00:36:15,438 --> 00:36:17,094
that's a good thing to go through the
875
00:36:17,094 --> 00:36:20,694
world ethically. And all of this blame is
876
00:36:20,694 --> 00:36:24,246
put on her when Adam is there the entire
877
00:36:24,246 --> 00:36:26,422
time. That's something that often gets
878
00:36:26,422 --> 00:36:29,794
left out, not only from our
879
00:36:29,794 --> 00:36:31,522
interpretation, but actually from the
880
00:36:31,522 --> 00:36:34,426
translation. So Genesis three six reads.
881
00:36:34,426 --> 00:36:36,074
And when she saw that the tree. Was good
882
00:36:36,074 --> 00:36:38,378
for food and that it was a delight to the
883
00:36:38,378 --> 00:36:40,694
eyes and that it was desired to make one
884
00:36:40,694 --> 00:36:43,274
wise, she took of its fruit and she ate
885
00:36:43,274 --> 00:36:45,566
and she gave some to her husband who was
886
00:36:45,566 --> 00:36:48,606
with her, and he ate. That's the NRSV. I
887
00:36:48,606 --> 00:36:50,078
would say her man, because there hasn't
888
00:36:50,078 --> 00:36:51,646
like been a marriage thing, but anyway.
889
00:36:51,646 --> 00:36:56,018
And he ate. But the words who was with her
890
00:36:56,018 --> 00:36:58,066
are not in a lot of Bibles. They're not in
891
00:36:58,066 --> 00:37:00,306
the revised standard Version. They're not
892
00:37:00,306 --> 00:37:02,626
in the Jewish Publication Society, Tanakh
893
00:37:02,626 --> 00:37:07,550
of 1985. They are left out of many
894
00:37:07,550 --> 00:37:09,638
translations of the Bible. And that about
895
00:37:09,638 --> 00:37:11,766
a third of english translations leave that
896
00:37:11,766 --> 00:37:13,826
out. I did a lot of research on this and
897
00:37:13,826 --> 00:37:15,874
published an article called Blaming Eve
898
00:37:15,874 --> 00:37:19,894
alone. But I was stunned to see that. One
899
00:37:19,894 --> 00:37:22,554
small Hebrew word ima, meaning with. Her,
900
00:37:22,554 --> 00:37:25,146
has been left out of many. Translations of
901
00:37:25,146 --> 00:37:27,594
the Bible. And that makes it very easy to
902
00:37:27,594 --> 00:37:29,542
just blame her for the quote, fall of
903
00:37:29,542 --> 00:37:30,938
humanity. Fall again, that word is nowhere
904
00:37:30,938 --> 00:37:34,234
in. The text, even though she hasn't even
905
00:37:34,234 --> 00:37:37,054
been formed yet. In chapter two, when God
906
00:37:37,054 --> 00:37:38,606
says to. Adam, don't eat of the fruit of
907
00:37:38,606 --> 00:37:40,366
the street. She hasn't even been formed,
908
00:37:40,366 --> 00:37:42,590
and yet she takes the blame, she takes the
909
00:37:42,590 --> 00:37:44,366
fall for him. And at least she thinks
910
00:37:44,366 --> 00:37:45,806
about it, at least she has these reasons,
911
00:37:45,806 --> 00:37:47,106
a number of reasons why she's going to
912
00:37:47,106 --> 00:37:49,246
eat. And he just like eats right away.
913
00:37:49,246 --> 00:37:52,066
Doesn't say if he'd been a helper. Azer,
914
00:37:52,066 --> 00:37:53,870
as you mentioned before, that word means
915
00:37:53,870 --> 00:37:55,666
helper in the Hebrew Bible. She's formed
916
00:37:55,666 --> 00:37:58,466
as a helper. But 90% of the time that we.
917
00:37:58,466 --> 00:38:00,318
Read it in the Bible refers to God, like
918
00:38:00,318 --> 00:38:02,178
psalm 121, which we mentioned earlier. I
919
00:38:02,178 --> 00:38:03,954
lift my knives to the hills, you must, my
920
00:38:03,954 --> 00:38:06,518
azer, my helper. And so if he'd been more
921
00:38:06,518 --> 00:38:08,134
of. A helper himself, he might have said.
922
00:38:08,134 --> 00:38:09,766
Wait a minute, don't eat from that fruit
923
00:38:09,766 --> 00:38:12,978
of the tree. But he doesn't. He eats. And
924
00:38:12,978 --> 00:38:14,698
then all of this is a. Couple of things I
925
00:38:14,698 --> 00:38:16,294
want to point. Out that most people aren't
926
00:38:16,294 --> 00:38:18,342
aware. All three of the characters are
927
00:38:18,342 --> 00:38:20,346
punished, right? So the snake is punished.
928
00:38:20,346 --> 00:38:22,866
Here we have a series of ideologies. For
929
00:38:22,866 --> 00:38:25,914
stories of origins that explain observable
930
00:38:25,914 --> 00:38:28,266
phenomena. And so why do snakes, like,
931
00:38:28,266 --> 00:38:30,126
imagine a child in the intro, mummy, why
932
00:38:30,126 --> 00:38:31,998
does snakes slither? It's such a funny way
933
00:38:31,998 --> 00:38:33,934
to move. Most animals don't move like
934
00:38:33,934 --> 00:38:36,254
that. Let me tell you, my child, long. Ago
935
00:38:36,254 --> 00:38:38,798
and far away, there was this talking
936
00:38:38,798 --> 00:38:41,026
snake, but it disobeyed God. And so in the
937
00:38:41,026 --> 00:38:42,766
end, it had to slender, right? That's the
938
00:38:42,766 --> 00:38:44,546
punishment with the snake. And also the
939
00:38:44,546 --> 00:38:46,078
other punishment of the snake is that
940
00:38:46,078 --> 00:38:48,050
there's going to be enmity or hatred
941
00:38:48,050 --> 00:38:49,894
between the woman and the snake. And a lot
942
00:38:49,894 --> 00:38:52,674
of people have really irrational fear of
943
00:38:52,674 --> 00:38:54,486
snakes, even if it's. A garter snake that
944
00:38:54,486 --> 00:38:55,766
they know isn't. Going to hurt them. They
945
00:38:55,766 --> 00:38:58,338
just freak out, right? So it explains this
946
00:38:58,338 --> 00:39:00,834
observable phenomenon. The woman is
947
00:39:00,834 --> 00:39:03,526
punished with pain in childbirth. The word
948
00:39:03,526 --> 00:39:06,122
for pain is it savon. In Hebrew, and it
949
00:39:06,122 --> 00:39:08,166
means labor. The exact same part of the
950
00:39:08,166 --> 00:39:09,966
man's punishment, same word, itzavon. He's
951
00:39:09,966 --> 00:39:11,674
going to have to labor with the ground,
952
00:39:11,674 --> 00:39:13,086
the Adam, he's going to have to work with
953
00:39:13,086 --> 00:39:15,006
the Adama, the. Human with the humus or
954
00:39:15,006 --> 00:39:18,094
the soil. Earthling with the earth. And so
955
00:39:18,094 --> 00:39:21,162
she has this punishment of having pain and
956
00:39:21,162 --> 00:39:24,314
childbirth. But as I point out, pain and
957
00:39:24,314 --> 00:39:26,718
childbirth, which I've experienced, it's
958
00:39:26,718 --> 00:39:30,402
temporary, and. At the end, you get a but.
959
00:39:30,402 --> 00:39:32,594
So it's a really great reward for, know, a
960
00:39:32,594 --> 00:39:35,586
day or so or half a day, maybe two, of
961
00:39:35,586 --> 00:39:38,034
kind of misery. But in the. Like, you have
962
00:39:38,034 --> 00:39:40,994
this baby. It's pretty amazing. But with
963
00:39:40,994 --> 00:39:43,206
Adam, his punishment is he has to, all the
964
00:39:43,206 --> 00:39:45,654
time is toil. In, out, in, out, in, out,
965
00:39:45,654 --> 00:39:47,494
in, out, just to get enough to eat every
966
00:39:47,494 --> 00:39:49,766
single day. It doesn't stop after 24 or
967
00:39:49,766 --> 00:39:53,634
48. Or 12 hours, whatever. And also that
968
00:39:53,634 --> 00:39:55,350
pun, you know, she's. Told she has a
969
00:39:55,350 --> 00:39:56,966
punishment. Your desire shall be for your
970
00:39:56,966 --> 00:39:58,566
husband, and he shall rule over you.
971
00:39:58,566 --> 00:40:01,446
Genesis 316. Your desire shall be for your
972
00:40:01,446 --> 00:40:03,722
husband. I read as an ideology as well.
973
00:40:03,722 --> 00:40:05,662
Like, why would a woman in the ancient
974
00:40:05,662 --> 00:40:07,806
world ever sleep with a man when she knows
975
00:40:07,806 --> 00:40:09,854
that she's taking her. Life in her hands?
976
00:40:09,854 --> 00:40:11,422
Because she could die in childbirth.
977
00:40:11,422 --> 00:40:12,826
Without medical care, your chances of
978
00:40:12,826 --> 00:40:14,542
dying are pretty good. One in ten, one in
979
00:40:14,542 --> 00:40:16,894
20, maybe. That's like russian roulette.
980
00:40:16,894 --> 00:40:18,226
So why would she ever sleep with a man?
981
00:40:18,226 --> 00:40:20,226
You need to explain it with an ideology.
982
00:40:20,226 --> 00:40:23,374
Her desire will be for a husband. And her
983
00:40:23,374 --> 00:40:24,898
turning actually is to. Shook is the word
984
00:40:24,898 --> 00:40:26,606
in Hebrew. Her turning will be to her
985
00:40:26,606 --> 00:40:28,086
husband. So she will turn or something,
986
00:40:28,086 --> 00:40:30,166
and. He will rule over her. Carol Myers,
987
00:40:30,166 --> 00:40:33,298
who I mentioned earlier, she says this is
988
00:40:33,298 --> 00:40:35,814
explaining the man's role as penetrator.
989
00:40:35,814 --> 00:40:38,950
Know, sexually, he's dominating in this,
990
00:40:38,950 --> 00:40:40,726
and. But it's part of the punishment. And
991
00:40:40,726 --> 00:40:42,646
even if you think it's an ideology for
992
00:40:42,646 --> 00:40:43,718
patriarchy, it's part of the punishment.
993
00:40:43,718 --> 00:40:45,466
It's not God's good creation. These are
994
00:40:45,466 --> 00:40:46,938
the difficult things we're stuck dealing
995
00:40:46,938 --> 00:40:50,666
with. And then the man, he has to. Labor
996
00:40:50,666 --> 00:40:53,206
all the time. He's going to become dust
997
00:40:53,206 --> 00:40:54,366
serpent food, which was what we're told
998
00:40:54,366 --> 00:40:57,034
the serpent. Is going to eat. So his
999
00:40:57,034 --> 00:40:58,590
punishment really seems pretty harsh to
1000
00:40:58,590 --> 00:41:00,606
me. But then what happens? At the very end
1001
00:41:00,606 --> 00:41:03,118
of chapter three. Only the ha Adam is sent
1002
00:41:03,118 --> 00:41:05,086
out. Of the garden of Eden. And I play
1003
00:41:05,086 --> 00:41:06,434
with a little bit in the book. I'm like,
1004
00:41:06,434 --> 00:41:09,166
and Eve and God, they stay together.
1005
00:41:09,166 --> 00:41:10,786
They're both creators. She is the mother
1006
00:41:10,786 --> 00:41:13,026
of all living. They rejoice in their wise
1007
00:41:13,026 --> 00:41:15,326
and glorious creation. Whenever you see a
1008
00:41:15,326 --> 00:41:16,926
mother and daughter laughing together,
1009
00:41:16,926 --> 00:41:19,058
that's a spark of the divine mother and
1010
00:41:19,058 --> 00:41:20,822
daughter. Whenever you see two or three
1011
00:41:20,822 --> 00:41:22,886
women together gathered in her name, she
1012
00:41:22,886 --> 00:41:26,034
is there among them. And eventually she
1013
00:41:26,034 --> 00:41:28,246
decides to take pity on Adam and go out
1014
00:41:28,246 --> 00:41:30,374
and keep. Him company, because in chapter
1015
00:41:30,374 --> 00:41:31,798
four, she's. There, and she buries Cain.
1016
00:41:31,798 --> 00:41:34,266
She buries that child. But that happens
1017
00:41:34,266 --> 00:41:35,914
much later, in my understanding. The text
1018
00:41:35,914 --> 00:41:37,786
never says when she leaves. And so perhaps
1019
00:41:37,786 --> 00:41:40,886
she is just there with God, because the
1020
00:41:40,886 --> 00:41:42,218
angel with the flaming sword that guards
1021
00:41:42,218 --> 00:41:44,666
the way to. The tree of life, only the ha
1022
00:41:44,666 --> 00:41:47,738
Adam has made out of the garden of Eden.
1023
00:41:47,738 --> 00:41:49,598
Isn't that interesting? It's so different.
1024
00:41:49,598 --> 00:41:53,086
This is just the Hebrew, Lori. Yeah. No, I
1025
00:41:53,086 --> 00:41:55,146
love it. Every time I hear people, because
1026
00:41:55,146 --> 00:41:56,994
I've studied the Hebrew of the story, I
1027
00:41:56,994 --> 00:41:59,454
hear more things that were left out of the
1028
00:41:59,454 --> 00:42:01,538
Sunday school flannel board version for a
1029
00:42:01,538 --> 00:42:04,866
lot of people listening. Can I just share
1030
00:42:04,866 --> 00:42:09,026
one other thing? It's so true. Yeah. I
1031
00:42:09,026 --> 00:42:10,386
read the Bible in Hebrew every morning
1032
00:42:10,386 --> 00:42:12,134
just because I love it so much. And every
1033
00:42:12,134 --> 00:42:14,326
time it blows my mind. I find new things.
1034
00:42:14,326 --> 00:42:16,566
So I was reading Genesis four not long ago
1035
00:42:16,566 --> 00:42:18,106
for a presentation I was. Doing on Cain
1036
00:42:18,106 --> 00:42:22,374
and Abel. And it says in English, so Eve.
1037
00:42:22,374 --> 00:42:24,314
Bears a child, and she names him, which
1038
00:42:24,314 --> 00:42:29,610
usually the women do in the Bible. Because
1039
00:42:29,610 --> 00:42:34,830
Kaniti. So I acquired him. So Kana is
1040
00:42:34,830 --> 00:42:36,826
origin of Cain. And actually, in modern
1041
00:42:36,826 --> 00:42:39,354
Hebrew, Kana means to shop. Okay, so I
1042
00:42:39,354 --> 00:42:41,674
acquired him. I acquired him. And in
1043
00:42:41,674 --> 00:42:43,626
English, it reads, with the help of the
1044
00:42:43,626 --> 00:42:46,142
Lord. But in Hebrew, it says, I acquired
1045
00:42:46,142 --> 00:42:49,086
him with the Lord. I'm like, oh, my
1046
00:42:49,086 --> 00:42:51,426
goodness, she has a child with God. Who's
1047
00:42:51,426 --> 00:42:52,866
the only other person in scripture. Who
1048
00:42:52,866 --> 00:42:55,566
has a child with God. Mary, the mother of
1049
00:42:55,566 --> 00:42:58,402
Jesus. And we see them as so opposed.
1050
00:42:58,402 --> 00:43:00,486
Because patriarchy likes to put women in
1051
00:43:00,486 --> 00:43:03,206
two places, the pedestal or the pit. The
1052
00:43:03,206 --> 00:43:05,346
two most famous women in the. Bible, Mary,
1053
00:43:05,346 --> 00:43:07,126
mother of Jesus, virgin mother. Good luck
1054
00:43:07,126 --> 00:43:09,654
trying to emulate that. And then Eve, who
1055
00:43:09,654 --> 00:43:11,594
brings down all of humanity, like, you
1056
00:43:11,594 --> 00:43:13,962
have these terrible. Choices, but
1057
00:43:13,962 --> 00:43:15,894
actually, they're so close. They're
1058
00:43:15,894 --> 00:43:18,522
scriptural sisters, because both of them.
1059
00:43:18,522 --> 00:43:21,830
Give birth to life, in some ways, this
1060
00:43:21,830 --> 00:43:23,694
incredible life, and both of them. Have a
1061
00:43:23,694 --> 00:43:27,422
child of God. Isn't that amazing? That is
1062
00:43:27,422 --> 00:43:29,754
amazing. Yeah. I think that that's the
1063
00:43:29,754 --> 00:43:32,174
beauty of when we can read the Bible
1064
00:43:32,174 --> 00:43:35,902
through the lens of a feminist
1065
00:43:35,902 --> 00:43:38,370
perspective, where we're looking for.
1066
00:43:38,370 --> 00:43:40,734
Where are we seeing that men and women are
1067
00:43:40,734 --> 00:43:43,598
equal? And when you look for it, it's
1068
00:43:43,598 --> 00:43:47,406
everywhere, from Genesis 127 onward. It
1069
00:43:47,406 --> 00:43:49,258
doesn't mean women aren't experiencing
1070
00:43:49,258 --> 00:43:50,742
oppression or marginalization. And, in
1071
00:43:50,742 --> 00:43:52,246
fact, it looks like Jesus is sort of
1072
00:43:52,246 --> 00:43:54,550
trying to highlight that a lot of his
1073
00:43:54,550 --> 00:43:57,266
ministry. But the lens is there, and the
1074
00:43:57,266 --> 00:44:00,386
lens is helpful, and you realize there's
1075
00:44:00,386 --> 00:44:02,406
parts of the story that haven't been
1076
00:44:02,406 --> 00:44:04,166
preached from a lot of pulpits you've been
1077
00:44:04,166 --> 00:44:06,426
sitting in. And therefore, hopefully, it
1078
00:44:06,426 --> 00:44:07,974
makes us curious, which is what you're
1079
00:44:07,974 --> 00:44:10,054
inviting us into by the time the book
1080
00:44:10,054 --> 00:44:12,086
finishes. And I really love that. My
1081
00:44:12,086 --> 00:44:15,440
husband was preparing for a sermon last
1082
00:44:15,440 --> 00:44:18,746
week. He and I sometimes fill in at a
1083
00:44:18,746 --> 00:44:20,206
pulpit here at an indonesian church, and
1084
00:44:20,206 --> 00:44:22,074
he was going to be preaching on the
1085
00:44:22,074 --> 00:44:25,194
prodigal son, and he wanted to get some
1086
00:44:25,194 --> 00:44:27,086
female theologian their perspectives as he
1087
00:44:27,086 --> 00:44:29,406
was studying it. And he's like, it's just
1088
00:44:29,406 --> 00:44:30,546
fascinating. There's not really women in
1089
00:44:30,546 --> 00:44:32,722
the story, but there's so many stories
1090
00:44:32,722 --> 00:44:34,146
like that that people might preach on
1091
00:44:34,146 --> 00:44:36,418
where the women don't exist. And you point
1092
00:44:36,418 --> 00:44:39,134
out in the book of Job, there's very few
1093
00:44:39,134 --> 00:44:41,794
female characters, but this book is a very
1094
00:44:41,794 --> 00:44:44,726
rich and deep book of the Bible. As you
1095
00:44:44,726 --> 00:44:46,198
read it through a feminist lens, did you
1096
00:44:46,198 --> 00:44:49,174
want to say a little bit more about. You
1097
00:44:49,174 --> 00:44:51,014
know, you're so right, Lori. We can find
1098
00:44:51,014 --> 00:44:53,058
this feminist lens, and. Let'S face it,
1099
00:44:53,058 --> 00:44:55,498
some texts are easier. To apply it to than
1100
00:44:55,498 --> 00:44:56,922
others. And some texts are really
1101
00:44:56,922 --> 00:44:58,522
difficult in. Terms of what they say about
1102
00:44:58,522 --> 00:45:00,106
women. That's just the reality. But how do
1103
00:45:00,106 --> 00:45:02,582
we interpret it? Powers in the
1104
00:45:02,582 --> 00:45:04,398
interpretation. And so with the book of
1105
00:45:04,398 --> 00:45:07,438
Job, 42 chapters, very entracentric,
1106
00:45:07,438 --> 00:45:09,182
almost all men throughout the. Throughout
1107
00:45:09,182 --> 00:45:11,434
the text. But when we look at it with.
1108
00:45:11,434 --> 00:45:14,094
Feminist lens, there are two approaches.
1109
00:45:14,094 --> 00:45:15,806
One is to really focus on the. Women
1110
00:45:15,806 --> 00:45:17,154
character, the few women characters that
1111
00:45:17,154 --> 00:45:21,858
there are. And in Job 29, Job's wife has
1112
00:45:21,858 --> 00:45:24,494
exactly six words in Hebrew, which in
1113
00:45:24,494 --> 00:45:26,966
English, we read, do you still persist in
1114
00:45:26,966 --> 00:45:30,022
your integrity, curse God and die?
1115
00:45:30,022 --> 00:45:32,546
However, the Hebrew says, you are still
1116
00:45:32,546 --> 00:45:35,382
holding on to your integrity. Bless God
1117
00:45:35,382 --> 00:45:39,770
and die. What? It's like the exact
1118
00:45:39,770 --> 00:45:42,966
opposite. And so I explore that in this
1119
00:45:42,966 --> 00:45:45,178
section. Curious. Like Eve. Learn more.
1120
00:45:45,178 --> 00:45:48,982
But why the word barech, meaning as an
1121
00:45:48,982 --> 00:45:51,302
imperative, meaning to bless, is
1122
00:45:51,302 --> 00:45:53,978
translated as curse? I think it's a bias
1123
00:45:53,978 --> 00:45:55,694
against Job's wife. There are places when
1124
00:45:55,694 --> 00:45:58,014
you can and probably should translate it
1125
00:45:58,014 --> 00:46:00,062
as curse, but I don't think this is one of
1126
00:46:00,062 --> 00:46:02,782
them. And also in English, we read her
1127
00:46:02,782 --> 00:46:04,414
asking a question. Do you still persist in
1128
00:46:04,414 --> 00:46:06,330
your integrity? Like, she's making fun of
1129
00:46:06,330 --> 00:46:09,086
him, like, what's your problem? But in the
1130
00:46:09,086 --> 00:46:11,806
Hebrew, there's no indicator of an
1131
00:46:11,806 --> 00:46:13,202
interrogative. There's no interrogative.
1132
00:46:13,202 --> 00:46:14,706
Hey, like this particle at the beginning.
1133
00:46:14,706 --> 00:46:17,054
That makes a question. There's no
1134
00:46:17,054 --> 00:46:18,226
interrogative pronoun like, who, what,
1135
00:46:18,226 --> 00:46:20,454
where, when, why? None of that. If you
1136
00:46:20,454 --> 00:46:21,826
read commentaries, they'll say it's a
1137
00:46:21,826 --> 00:46:23,606
quote. Unquote, tonal, interrogative. Like
1138
00:46:23,606 --> 00:46:25,318
the tone. How do you know the tone? It's
1139
00:46:25,318 --> 00:46:28,550
on a page. I really see this as a bias.
1140
00:46:28,550 --> 00:46:30,586
Against women to make her look bad. I
1141
00:46:30,586 --> 00:46:32,566
think she's really a wonderful,
1142
00:46:32,566 --> 00:46:34,026
compassionate spouse. That's how I read
1143
00:46:34,026 --> 00:46:37,766
her. Also, at the end of job, we have his
1144
00:46:37,766 --> 00:46:39,722
sisters when he's restored. So, as you
1145
00:46:39,722 --> 00:46:42,250
know, he has this wonderful life. He loses
1146
00:46:42,250 --> 00:46:44,026
everything, including his family. We don't
1147
00:46:44,026 --> 00:46:45,418
know what happens to the wife. She sort of
1148
00:46:45,418 --> 00:46:48,254
doesn't get mentioned. His ten children,
1149
00:46:48,254 --> 00:46:50,366
seven sons, three daughters, loses it. All
1150
00:46:50,366 --> 00:46:52,078
his friends come to him. They sit silently
1151
00:46:52,078 --> 00:46:53,818
for a while. And the bulk of the book,
1152
00:46:53,818 --> 00:46:55,406
they're. Arguing back and forth with him.
1153
00:46:55,406 --> 00:46:57,234
After they've sat silently with him for.
1154
00:46:57,234 --> 00:46:58,898
Seven days, they start telling him all.
1155
00:46:58,898 --> 00:47:01,442
The things that he's done wrong. And then
1156
00:47:01,442 --> 00:47:03,474
God finally speaks from the whirlwind. And
1157
00:47:03,474 --> 00:47:05,554
God vindicates job and restores
1158
00:47:05,554 --> 00:47:07,950
everything. So we also get these women
1159
00:47:07,950 --> 00:47:09,814
characters. At the end of the book. We get
1160
00:47:09,814 --> 00:47:11,506
his sisters, who come to him when he's
1161
00:47:11,506 --> 00:47:14,022
restored and give him. Money and eat with
1162
00:47:14,022 --> 00:47:16,114
him like his brothers do, which is
1163
00:47:16,114 --> 00:47:17,734
wonderful. Just a small little detail.
1164
00:47:17,734 --> 00:47:19,098
Like they can give him money too. They've
1165
00:47:19,098 --> 00:47:21,722
got their own independent means. He has
1166
00:47:21,722 --> 00:47:24,934
three daughters, and the sons don't have
1167
00:47:24,934 --> 00:47:27,466
names. But the daughters are named Jemima,
1168
00:47:27,466 --> 00:47:30,166
which means dove. May she know freedom.
1169
00:47:30,166 --> 00:47:32,106
Kaziah, which means cinnamon flower, may
1170
00:47:32,106 --> 00:47:34,362
she. Know the subtle sweetness of life.
1171
00:47:34,362 --> 00:47:36,926
And Karen hapu, which any commentary will.
1172
00:47:36,926 --> 00:47:40,554
Tell you is a container for cosmetics. But
1173
00:47:40,554 --> 00:47:42,986
Karen means horn, and it's also. A sign of
1174
00:47:42,986 --> 00:47:45,886
strength and power. And hapuk means
1175
00:47:45,886 --> 00:47:48,594
antimony, which is a. Compound that is
1176
00:47:48,594 --> 00:47:50,306
always mixed with another. Like antimonys,
1177
00:47:50,306 --> 00:47:52,926
not alone. And so maybe he's imparting
1178
00:47:52,926 --> 00:47:55,362
strength and solidarity to her. And he
1179
00:47:55,362 --> 00:47:58,114
also gives his daughters an inheritance
1180
00:47:58,114 --> 00:48:00,390
along with his brothers. That's the only
1181
00:48:00,390 --> 00:48:02,994
place in the entire Hebrew Bible where
1182
00:48:02,994 --> 00:48:04,966
girls inherit along with their brothers.
1183
00:48:04,966 --> 00:48:06,626
Of course, you have the story of the
1184
00:48:06,626 --> 00:48:08,806
daughters of Zalofa had in numbers 26. But
1185
00:48:08,806 --> 00:48:11,138
they don't have any brothers. And so
1186
00:48:11,138 --> 00:48:13,094
that's why they can inherit. But girls
1187
00:48:13,094 --> 00:48:14,666
inheriting with their brothers. So I like
1188
00:48:14,666 --> 00:48:17,046
to say maybe Job has learned. Like a
1189
00:48:17,046 --> 00:48:18,506
budding feminist, you need to look out for
1190
00:48:18,506 --> 00:48:20,714
those who are more vulnerable. But what is
1191
00:48:20,714 --> 00:48:23,686
most feminist to me. About this book is
1192
00:48:23,686 --> 00:48:25,806
what happens in the middle. When you have
1193
00:48:25,806 --> 00:48:27,454
all of these men. Job and his friends
1194
00:48:27,454 --> 00:48:30,030
talking with each other. Job never
1195
00:48:30,030 --> 00:48:32,366
questions his own authority. He holds on
1196
00:48:32,366 --> 00:48:34,622
to the truth of his story. And when his
1197
00:48:34,622 --> 00:48:37,358
friends start telling him. This is your
1198
00:48:37,358 --> 00:48:39,218
fault, you've done something wrong. Who
1199
00:48:39,218 --> 00:48:41,202
are you to know the mind of God? It's like
1200
00:48:41,202 --> 00:48:43,746
women who are told it's your fault. What
1201
00:48:43,746 --> 00:48:47,778
were you wearing? How much did you drink?
1202
00:48:47,778 --> 00:48:51,222
And job refuses to accept that. He's like,
1203
00:48:51,222 --> 00:48:53,346
no, I didn't do anything wrong. We, the
1204
00:48:53,346 --> 00:48:55,030
reader, know why he suffered all of this.
1205
00:48:55,030 --> 00:48:57,426
Job doesn't know any of it. And he holds
1206
00:48:57,426 --> 00:48:59,606
onto his integrity. He holds on to the
1207
00:48:59,606 --> 00:49:02,054
truth of. His story, and in the end, he's
1208
00:49:02,054 --> 00:49:04,794
vindicated for it by God. And to me, that
1209
00:49:04,794 --> 00:49:09,606
seems like a very feminist takeaway. Yes,
1210
00:49:09,606 --> 00:49:13,834
it's beautiful. Love your perspective on
1211
00:49:13,834 --> 00:49:16,286
it and helps me learn even more nuance to
1212
00:49:16,286 --> 00:49:18,094
it and makes me want to reread it again. I
1213
00:49:18,094 --> 00:49:20,302
was in the middle of reading Job when I
1214
00:49:20,302 --> 00:49:23,086
was being spiritually abused by a pastor,
1215
00:49:23,086 --> 00:49:25,806
when I was a female pastor, working sort
1216
00:49:25,806 --> 00:49:28,318
of underneath him as he was the megachurch
1217
00:49:28,318 --> 00:49:30,574
pastor, and I was one of the associate
1218
00:49:30,574 --> 00:49:32,978
campus pastors, and I was reading Job when
1219
00:49:32,978 --> 00:49:34,818
it was all going down, and I ended up
1220
00:49:34,818 --> 00:49:37,874
being fired for my own abuse and blamed.
1221
00:49:37,874 --> 00:49:39,766
Why were you in a meeting with him? Why
1222
00:49:39,766 --> 00:49:42,294
did you ask that question? And reading Job
1223
00:49:42,294 --> 00:49:44,918
just gave me exactly all the things you're
1224
00:49:44,918 --> 00:49:47,734
saying when Job was being blamed by his
1225
00:49:47,734 --> 00:49:50,498
own friends. And just to be like, no,
1226
00:49:50,498 --> 00:49:52,394
that's not what happened. And it was to
1227
00:49:52,394 --> 00:49:54,634
me, as a survivor of abuse, a beautiful
1228
00:49:54,634 --> 00:49:56,598
book to read, but definitely want to
1229
00:49:56,598 --> 00:49:58,582
revisit it now in light of all the
1230
00:49:58,582 --> 00:50:01,398
feminist lens that you mentioned. And
1231
00:50:01,398 --> 00:50:03,722
there's so much richness in that book for
1232
00:50:03,722 --> 00:50:05,326
anybody who has suffered and been blamed
1233
00:50:05,326 --> 00:50:08,286
for your own suffering or abuse as well.
1234
00:50:08,286 --> 00:50:09,566
Well, I just want to say thank you for
1235
00:50:09,566 --> 00:50:11,802
this conversation today. It's been very
1236
00:50:11,802 --> 00:50:13,454
insightful, very thoughtful. Thank you for
1237
00:50:13,454 --> 00:50:15,666
all your scholarship and bringing it into
1238
00:50:15,666 --> 00:50:18,494
both this book and this conversation for
1239
00:50:18,494 --> 00:50:20,254
listeners around the world. I know that
1240
00:50:20,254 --> 00:50:22,430
eve, whether my muslim friends call her
1241
00:50:22,430 --> 00:50:26,174
Hawa or whether you're a jewish person
1242
00:50:26,174 --> 00:50:28,230
anywhere in the world, Eve is an important
1243
00:50:28,230 --> 00:50:31,202
figure for many of our religions, and
1244
00:50:31,202 --> 00:50:33,170
understanding her helps us understand
1245
00:50:33,170 --> 00:50:35,458
ourselves and how God sees us. And I think
1246
00:50:35,458 --> 00:50:37,906
it's so important to understand how
1247
00:50:37,906 --> 00:50:40,998
beloved we are as women and men made in
1248
00:50:40,998 --> 00:50:43,466
God's image, like it says in Genesis 127,
1249
00:50:43,466 --> 00:50:46,710
a verse that means so much to Christians,
1250
00:50:46,710 --> 00:50:48,922
Muslims, and jewish friends around the
1251
00:50:48,922 --> 00:50:50,918
world listening. So I'm going to have you
1252
00:50:50,918 --> 00:50:52,458
hang out later with our difference makers
1253
00:50:52,458 --> 00:50:54,918
and ask you another question there about
1254
00:50:54,918 --> 00:50:56,586
your experiences in the world and your
1255
00:50:56,586 --> 00:50:58,046
perspective on some things. But thank you
1256
00:50:58,046 --> 00:50:59,854
so much, Julie, for this conversation
1257
00:50:59,854 --> 00:51:01,374
today. How can people find you and more of
1258
00:51:01,374 --> 00:51:04,638
your writing? Just go to
1259
00:51:04,638 --> 00:51:07,402
juliefaithparker.com I've got my. Speaking
1260
00:51:07,402 --> 00:51:09,194
engagements coming up, free classes
1261
00:51:09,194 --> 00:51:11,618
online. And ways to get my books. Thank
1262
00:51:11,618 --> 00:51:13,026
you for asking, and thank you. So much for
1263
00:51:13,026 --> 00:51:14,386
having me. Laura, it's been such a joy to
1264
00:51:14,386 --> 00:51:15,982
talk with you. I'm so grateful for your
1265
00:51:15,982 --> 00:51:17,710
ministry of putting such meaningful
1266
00:51:17,710 --> 00:51:21,054
conversations out. Thank you. Thank you
1267
00:51:21,054 --> 00:51:22,630
Julie. It's nice to get to see you. In
1268
00:51:22,630 --> 00:51:24,054
person finally after having read your.
1269
00:51:24,054 --> 00:51:25,926
Book, and I'm excited for people to get a
1270
00:51:25,926 --> 00:51:27,126
hold of it. We'll put the link in the
1271
00:51:27,126 --> 00:51:28,722
show. Notes to your book. Thanks for this
1272
00:51:28,722 --> 00:51:30,994
conversation today Julie. Thank you Lori.
1273
00:51:30,994 --> 00:51:34,554
Ok everyone, Julie has blown us away. If
1274
00:51:34,554 --> 00:51:37,638
you have any inkling or have any remaining
1275
00:51:37,638 --> 00:51:38,934
thoughts in your head that Eve could
1276
00:51:38,934 --> 00:51:41,654
possibly be evil, just start this whole
1277
00:51:41,654 --> 00:51:45,002
podcast all over again and buy her book.
1278
00:51:45,002 --> 00:51:46,938
Because Eve is not evil. She has hopefully
1279
00:51:46,938 --> 00:51:49,278
cleared that up for us and also given us a
1280
00:51:49,278 --> 00:51:51,226
lot of insight into different women in the
1281
00:51:51,226 --> 00:51:53,386
ancient scriptures that we may have heard
1282
00:51:53,386 --> 00:51:55,282
sermons preached on in very different
1283
00:51:55,282 --> 00:51:57,714
ways. But as we dig deep through the lens
1284
00:51:57,714 --> 00:52:00,846
of women, as women are scholars out there
1285
00:52:00,846 --> 00:52:02,610
studying eleven languages like this
1286
00:52:02,610 --> 00:52:05,534
amazing woman, Julie, and just really
1287
00:52:05,534 --> 00:52:08,598
digging into the culture and the exegesis
1288
00:52:08,598 --> 00:52:10,546
of what was happening culturally in these
1289
00:52:10,546 --> 00:52:12,742
ancient times, around these lives of these
1290
00:52:12,742 --> 00:52:14,840
women, we start to see some different
1291
00:52:14,840 --> 00:52:17,798
things that were always there and yet were
1292
00:52:17,798 --> 00:52:20,234
just not pointed out to us. And I read
1293
00:52:20,234 --> 00:52:22,566
pretty extensively around different
1294
00:52:22,566 --> 00:52:24,150
stories of women in these ancient
1295
00:52:24,150 --> 00:52:26,490
scriptures written by different
1296
00:52:26,490 --> 00:52:28,426
theologians. But even in reading this
1297
00:52:28,426 --> 00:52:30,086
book, there were a lot of things that I.
1298
00:52:30,086 --> 00:52:32,218
Hadn'T considered before or ways she
1299
00:52:32,218 --> 00:52:34,586
framed it that were new insights. And I
1300
00:52:34,586 --> 00:52:36,366
learned quite a few things, and I'm sure
1301
00:52:36,366 --> 00:52:39,774
you will too. I found it very insightful
1302
00:52:39,774 --> 00:52:43,166
and refreshing because there is a message
1303
00:52:43,166 --> 00:52:45,054
that gets sent when we hear Eve is evil,
1304
00:52:45,054 --> 00:52:46,802
that maybe all women are evil, and all
1305
00:52:46,802 --> 00:52:49,522
women are somehow these temptresses and
1306
00:52:49,522 --> 00:52:51,358
trying to bring a good man down. But
1307
00:52:51,358 --> 00:52:53,138
that's not the case, and that's not been
1308
00:52:53,138 --> 00:52:55,154
the case since the beginning. But all of
1309
00:52:55,154 --> 00:52:57,378
us are image bearers, and that has a lot
1310
00:52:57,378 --> 00:52:59,302
to say, not just for this story in ancient
1311
00:52:59,302 --> 00:53:00,854
times, but who we are today and how we
1312
00:53:00,854 --> 00:53:03,590
view humanity today. And it can make a
1313
00:53:03,590 --> 00:53:06,934
world of difference to see yourself in
1314
00:53:06,934 --> 00:53:12,006
this way as a beloved creation of an
1315
00:53:12,006 --> 00:53:14,700
almighty God who cares about us, men and
1316
00:53:14,700 --> 00:53:18,074
women, and made us in God's own image, and
1317
00:53:18,074 --> 00:53:22,074
that we really deserve to see ourselves in
1318
00:53:22,074 --> 00:53:24,598
this light. So when you read the book evil
1319
00:53:24,598 --> 00:53:26,286
than evil, you kind of start to see some
1320
00:53:26,286 --> 00:53:28,574
things about yourself and they're really
1321
00:53:28,574 --> 00:53:30,606
good, good things. And I hope that you can
1322
00:53:30,606 --> 00:53:33,086
pick that book up and be refreshed in ways
1323
00:53:33,086 --> 00:53:38,046
that I was because I found it very just
1324
00:53:38,046 --> 00:53:40,606
refreshing to see these insights that she
1325
00:53:40,606 --> 00:53:42,658
brought out and intriguing. It made me
1326
00:53:42,658 --> 00:53:43,938
want to learn more, made me want to
1327
00:53:43,938 --> 00:53:46,338
research more. So I hope that it will for
1328
00:53:46,338 --> 00:53:48,334
you, too. So pick up her book, Eve isn't
1329
00:53:48,334 --> 00:53:52,054
evil. Such a great title. Also, for all of
1330
00:53:52,054 --> 00:53:54,086
you out there who are just doing so much
1331
00:53:54,086 --> 00:53:56,866
good in the world, I would love for you to
1332
00:53:56,866 --> 00:53:58,326
join our difference makers community
1333
00:53:58,326 --> 00:53:59,666
because we go a little bit deeper with
1334
00:53:59,666 --> 00:54:01,782
Julie there. She has some fun things to
1335
00:54:01,782 --> 00:54:03,718
say, and you get to know her a little bit
1336
00:54:03,718 --> 00:54:05,366
better, like all of our guests who come on
1337
00:54:05,366 --> 00:54:07,366
the show. And we go a little bit deeper in
1338
00:54:07,366 --> 00:54:09,318
our difference maker community. Also, it's
1339
00:54:09,318 --> 00:54:11,982
a place where and you and I can dm each
1340
00:54:11,982 --> 00:54:14,366
other, or you can answer our poll that's
1341
00:54:14,366 --> 00:54:15,666
coming up about what you want to see in
1342
00:54:15,666 --> 00:54:18,526
2024 and make a difference for what this
1343
00:54:18,526 --> 00:54:19,966
year is going to look like in the podcast
1344
00:54:19,966 --> 00:54:21,838
so that people all around the world that
1345
00:54:21,838 --> 00:54:24,998
listen can be impacted by some of the
1346
00:54:24,998 --> 00:54:27,330
choices we make on that poll together as
1347
00:54:27,330 --> 00:54:30,254
difference makers. So yeah, join us there.
1348
00:54:30,254 --> 00:54:32,706
Join Julie in a deeper episode, join any
1349
00:54:32,706 --> 00:54:35,394
of our guests from the last year, and all
1350
00:54:35,394 --> 00:54:37,874
those exclusive episodes will be just down
1351
00:54:37,874 --> 00:54:40,614
in that community for each of you. And you
1352
00:54:40,614 --> 00:54:42,678
can just binge that for an entire month if
1353
00:54:42,678 --> 00:54:44,918
you want, by joining for just one month.
1354
00:54:44,918 --> 00:54:46,630
Or you can stick around for a little bit
1355
00:54:46,630 --> 00:54:48,822
longer and subscribe and get all of our
1356
00:54:48,822 --> 00:54:50,742
future episodes and all the past ones,
1357
00:54:50,742 --> 00:54:52,038
because it's really kind of hard to get to
1358
00:54:52,038 --> 00:54:53,218
all of. Them in just one month. But
1359
00:54:53,218 --> 00:54:58,566
they're all there. And if you go to WW dot
1360
00:54:58,566 --> 00:55:00,318
patreon.com, a world of difference, you'll
1361
00:55:00,318 --> 00:55:03,550
be able to join us for as little as $5 a
1362
00:55:03,550 --> 00:55:05,966
month. I'd love to have you there. So in
1363
00:55:05,966 --> 00:55:07,822
the meantime, I know that all of you are
1364
00:55:07,822 --> 00:55:09,502
making such a difference around the world.
1365
00:55:09,502 --> 00:55:11,786
So as always, keep making a difference