Dr. Nijay Gupta on Rethinking Religion: The Roman Empire's Influence on Early Christians


Hey there, are you feeling disillusioned with modern Christianity? Have you been told to just accept the status quo and keep quiet about your doubts and concerns? It can be frustrating to feel like you're not getting the authentic experience you're seeking, especially when it comes to your faith. If you're tired of the ineffective advice to just go along with it, let's explore a better way to understand the history and context of early Christians that can revitalize your faith, whatever your faith background and bring new perspective to your journey. Let's dive into the compelling insights that can reignite your passion for authentic faith, even if that seems a little strange in your current religious context.
Hey there, are you feeling disillusioned with modern Christianity? Have you been told to just accept the status quo and keep quiet about your doubts and concerns? It can be frustrating to feel like you're not getting the authentic experience you're seeking, especially when it comes to your faith. If you're tired of the ineffective advice to just go along with it, let's explore a better way to understand the history and context of early Christians that can revitalize your faith, whatever your faith background and bring new perspective to your journey. Let's dive into the compelling insights that can reignite your passion for authentic faith, even if that seems a little strange in your current religious context.
My special guest is Dr. Nijay Gupta
Dr. Nijay Gupta, a distinguished professor of New Testament at Northern Seminary, is widely recognized for his scholarly contributions to early Christian studies. Residing in Portland, Oregon, Dr. Gupta also serves as a co-host of the acclaimed Slow Theology podcast and is the founder of the influential Crux Sola blog. With an extensive repertoire of published works, including "Strange Religion," and "Tell Her Story," Dr. Gupta's comprehensive understanding of the historical and cultural context of early Christianity renders him a leading authority in the field. His latest book provides an insightful examination of the ways in which early Christians diverged from the prevalent religious and cultural norms of the Roman Empire, offering a compelling narrative that enriches our understanding of this pivotal era.
I want to believe that is a great and beautiful thing for anyone who feels like their movement has gone astray, whether it's a political movement, a religious movement, a social movement, we can always say, what are the good and beautiful and true things that made us who we are at the beginning? How can we come back to that now? - Dr. Nijay Gupta
In this episode, you will be able to:
- Embrace the uniqueness of early Christian teachings to deepen your understanding of faith and spirituality.
- Experience a paradigm shift in your perception of religion by exploring the roots of early Christianity.
- Explore the profound impact of early Christian theology on modern belief systems and moral values.
- Challenge yourself to embody the concept of loving one's enemies and understand its significance in daily life.
- Discover the importance of prioritizing self-care and well-being through the lens of early Christian teachings.
Experience a Paradigm Shift
The early Christian revolution led to a paradigm shift, moving from power-driven religious practices towards a focus on goodness and authenticity. It revolutionized societal perceptions, promoting a familial relationship with God over a hierarchical one. This shift redefined societal values, placing emphasis on the inherent dignity of every individual, thus influencing modern perceptions of self-worth and individual rights.
The resources mentioned in this episode are:
- Check out Nijay Gupta's latest book Strange Religion: How Early Christians Contrasted with Roman Religion and Culture available from Brazos Press for a deep dive into the contrast between ancient and modern perspectives on Christianity.
- Join the exclusive Difference Maker community on Patreon at www.patreon.com/aworldofdifference to access deeper conversations with guests like Nijay Gupta and enjoy exclusive content, including videos and interactions with the host.
- Connect with Lori Adams-Brown at Podcast Movement Evolutions in LA at the end of March and attend her breakout session on having a global podcast.
- Listen to the Slow Theology podcast co-hosted by Nijay Gupta and Dr. AJ Swoboda for discussions on deconstruction, faith, and navigating a complex world.
- Engage with the World of Difference podcast by reaching out to Lori Adams-Brown on social media to share how the podcast has impacted your life and work.
- Check out Nijay Gupta's latest book Strange Religion: How Early Christians Contrasted with Roman Religion and Culture available from Brazos Press for a deep dive into the contrast between ancient and modern perspectives on Christianity.
- Join the exclusive Difference Maker community on Patreon at www.patreon.com/aworldofdifference to access deeper conversations with guests like Nijay Gupta and enjoy exclusive content, including videos and interactions with the host.
- Connect with Lori Adams-Brown at Podcast Movement Evolutions in LA at the end of March and attend her breakout session on having a global podcast.
- Listen to the Slow Theology podcast co-hosted by Nijay Gupta and Dr. AJ Swaboda for discussions on deconstruction, faith, and navigating a complex world.
- Engage with the World of Difference podcast by reaching out to Lori Adams-Brown on social media to share how the podcast has impacted your life and work.
Let suffering speak for the atrocities that are done then and now in the name of Jesus by Christians who should know better. But there's so much in scripture that has done so many good things for the things we take for granted right now. - Dr. Nijay Gupta
Embrace the Uniqueness
Embracing the uniqueness of early Christianity involves accepting its inherent non-conformity, individuality, and authenticity. It requires acknowledging the contrast between early Christian ideals and the current negative perceptions that have tainted the contemporary church. This embrace urges us to strive for a return to the faith's original, 'weird' roots, without the distortions prevalent in current mega-church culture.
The key moments in this episode are:
00:00:02 - Introduction to the Podcast
00:01:05 - Sponsorship and Therapy
00:01:27 - Introduction of Dr. Nijay Gupta
00:02:23 - The Concept of "Strange Religion,"
00:11:43 - Contrasting Ancient and Modern Religious Practices
00:14:24 - Early Christian Environment
00:17:29 - Religion in the Ancient World
00:19:47 - Gods and Fear
00:21:42 - Paradigm Shift
00:26:39 - Christianity's Evolution
00:29:47 - The Challenge of Loving Your Enemies
00:32:40 - Divisions and Unity
00:33:22 - Suspending Judgment
00:34:23 - Uncovering the Original Message
00:40:39 - The Impact of Early Christians
00:43:12 - Excitement for Podcast Movement Evolutions
00:43:36 - Meeting Listeners
00:43:56 - Gratitude and Encouragement
00:44:20 - Shoutout to Nijay Gupta
00:44:45 - Closing Remarks
Experience a Paradigm Shift
The early Christian revolution led to a paradigm shift, moving from power-driven religious practices towards a focus on goodness and authenticity. It revolutionized societal perceptions, promoting a familial relationship with God over a hierarchical one. This shift redefined societal values, placing emphasis on the inherent dignity of every individual, thus influencing modern perceptions of self-worth and individual rights.
Timestamped summary of this episode:
00:00:02 - Introduction to the Podcast
Lori Adams Brown introduces the World of Difference podcast and its focus on those who are different and want to make a difference. The podcast is sponsored by Betterhelp, emphasizing the importance of therapy for personal growth and understanding strengths.
00:01:05 - Sponsorship and Therapy
Lori highlights the role of therapy in personal development and offers a 10% discount for Betterhelp. She encourages listeners to consider the benefits of talking to a professional about life's challenges and self-discovery.
00:01:27 - Introduction of Dr. Nijay Gupta
Lori introduces Dr. Nijay Gupta, a professor of New Testament at Northern Seminary, highlighting his expertise and previous works. She previews the discussion of his latest book, "Strange Religion," and its focus on early Christians contrasting with Roman culture.
00:02:23 - The Concept of "Strange Religion,"
Dr. Nijay Gupta explains the concept behind his book, "Strange Religion," drawing parallels between the unique individuality of Portland, Oregon, and the early Christians' commitment to a different way of living and beliefs. He emphasizes the need to rediscover the original, revolutionary essence of Christianity.
00:11:43 - Contrasting Ancient and Modern Religious Practices
Dr. Nijay Gupta discusses the differences between ancient Roman religion and modern Western views of religion. He highlights the public, obligatory, and practical nature of ancient Roman religion, contrasting it with the optional and personal approach often seen in modern
00:14:24 - Early Christian Environment
Dr. Nijay Gupta discusses the environment in which early Christians grew up, where religion was an obligation and a question of power and obedience to gods.
00:17:29 - Religion in the Ancient World
Gupta compares the saturation of religion in the ancient world to modern sports culture, highlighting the obligatory nature of religion during that time.
00:19:47 - Gods and Fear
Gupta explores the fear and power dynamics associated with the gods in the ancient world, and how early Christians rejected this paradigm by emphasizing a loving parental relationship with God.
00:21:42 - Paradigm Shift
The conversation delves into how early Christians shifted the religious paradigm from power and coercion to one of inherent dignity for all individuals, leading to a different socio-economic outlook.
00:26:39 - Christianity's Evolution
Gupta reflects on the need for Christianity to constantly evolve and change for the better, drawing inspiration from historical figures like Dietrich von Hoeffer and emphasizing the importance of returning to the core ideas of the faith.
00:29:47 - The Challenge of Loving Your Enemies
Dr. Nijay Gupta discusses the difficulty of Jesus' teaching to love your enemies and how it applies to our world today, especially in the face of political strife.
00:32:40 - Divisions and Unity
Dr. Gupta talks about how divisions exist not only in the political sphere but also in various parts of the world and emphasizes the importance of loving our enemies as a way to overcome these divisions and unite people.
00:33:22 - Suspending Judgment
The conversation delves into the challenge of suspending judgment, especially in today's society, and how it relates to the teachings of Jesus in the Bible.
00:34:23 - Uncovering the Original Message
Dr. Gupta shares the importance of revisiting the original teachings of Christianity and scripture, encouraging readers to look beyond the negative aspects and discover the timeless truths within.
00:40:39 - The Impact of Early Christians
The conversation concludes with a discussion on the impact of early Christians in history and how their values and ideals continue to influence social change and justice movements today.
00:43:12 - Excitement for Podcast Movement Evolutions
Lori shares her excitement for attending Podcast Movement Evolutions in LA and meeting up with listeners. She mentions the opportunity to meet Amy Poehler and her previous experience of hearing will Ferrell.
00:43:36 - Meeting Listeners
Lori expresses her eagerness to meet listeners of the podcast at the event and encourages them to come up and say hi. She values connecting with her audience and appreciates their support.
00:43:56 - Gratitude and Encouragement
Lori expresses gratitude to the listeners for taking the time to tune in and emphasizes the importance of self-care. She encourages everyone to keep making a difference in their own way, wherever they are.
00:44:20 - Shoutout to Nijay Gupta
Lori acknowledges Dr. Nijay Gupta and his perspective shared in the conversation, thanking him for his insights and contribution to the episode.
00:44:45 - Closing Remarks
Lori wraps up the episode with a reminder of the value each listener holds and encourages them to continue making a positive impact in the world.
Impactful Theology
Early Christian theology was transformative, marking a stark departure from the ancient Roman religious practices and fostering a culture of empathy and love. The teachings of Jesus, particularly those focused on love and compassion towards one’s enemies, remains relevant even in today's divisive world. Through a careful examination of our attitudes towards others, especially those with differing ideologies, we can more fully embody these teachings, fostering social transformation and bringing about meaningful change.
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Keep making a difference wherever you are!
Lori Adams-Brown, Host & Executive Producer
A World of Difference Podcast
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Welcome to the a World of Difference
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podcast. I'm Lori Adams Brown and this is
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a podcast for those who are different and
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want to make a difference. This podcast is
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sponsored by Betterhelp. If you are a
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person who really wants to understand what
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off your first month Today today on the
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show we have a return guest It's Dr.Nijay
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Gupta Nijay is Gupta. professor of New
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Testament at Northern Seminary He lives up
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in Portland Oregon and he's a co host of
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the show the Slow Theology podcast He's
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also the founder of the Cook Sola blog and
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he's written numerous books including what
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he was on he show last time to talk about
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tell her story Also he's written a
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beginner's guide to New Testament studies
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15 New Testament words of life and
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commentaries on Galatians Philippians
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Colossians and first and second
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Thessalonians.He is a co editor with Dr co
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McKnight of the State of the New Testament
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Studies and he's Testament senior
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translator for the New Living translation
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of the Bible that some of you may have
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read or currently read And he is on the
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show today to talk about his latest new
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book And I was so thrilled to get another
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advanced copy of another one of his books
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This one his called strange religion how
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early christians contrasted with roman
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religion and culture.And I really love
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this Just he brought in so much of like
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just as you're reading it in the very
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beginning so much of just the whole keep
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Portland weird thing And if you don't know
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about that just google it and go visit
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Portland because then you'll kind of
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understand it But he talks about how the
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first christians were kind of weird and
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just how weird they were is often lost on
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today's believers And I on mean weird in a
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way to where christians don't know how to
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make hard decisions in the world so they
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just have to be weird.I don't mean like
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that It's just when you'll understand
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please get a copy of his book and it's
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available for preorder as well But as you
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read this book you'll understand a little
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more about what he a Just going against
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empire going against things going their
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day that took a lot of courage And so this
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book is so well written.It actually has
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some really fun pictures because he's
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trying to make it a more immersive
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experience He's talking about gods and
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different people that you may have known
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about when you read about greek gods and
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your history books growing up But he
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really kind of makes it come alive as to
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what the scene was like for some of the
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early christians but also brings it into
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modern day And also story about him
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shopping at Costco So really excited to
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have him back on the show to to talk about
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his latest book Strange Religion.So
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welcome back for the second time Dr Nijay
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Gupta.Hi Nijay And a warm welcome to you
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Gupta. in Portland to the show today I
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have some wild winter weather here in
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California but I just want to say are you
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keeping Portland weird for us Are you
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doing you job up there I'm trying.I'm
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trying It's hard to keep up there? But
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we've been here almost ten years so I'm
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pretty settled into the weird I love it I
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love it so much.Every time I go to
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Portland it's just it signs everywhere say
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keep Portland weird And I just love the
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quirkiness of it all And I love that you
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bring that into your book I was reading
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your book and yes this is what we're
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talking about today everyone Strange
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religion.I was reading it in my coffee
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shop that I walked to with my husband on
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the weekends And we're really spoiled here
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that we can walk to really good coffee
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places Phil's coffee is one of our
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favorites but I was sitting in there
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reading it and the woman next to me said
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that book looks really good So she liked
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your cover Apparently that was selling
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her.And I said well I was reading in the
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kind of beginning where you talk about
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keep Portland weird and how that ties in
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with strange religion So I was kind of
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telling her about it She's like I have
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family in Portland So you may have sold a
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few books out of Los Gado's coffee place
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from may woman who a very impressed by
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your So kind coffee know just out the
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gate.Tell us how you brought that together
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Like Portland's weirdness the strange
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religion concept kind of dig us in there a
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little bit Yeah As I said I've been living
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in Portland for a while and one thing it's
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known for is just individuality in who you
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a and not blending into kind of the wider
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culture as some kind of robot or zombie
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like conformity I say in the book is a
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four letter word in you know during the
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pandemic a lot of the book ideas came out
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of the pandemic and just what's been going
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on the last four or five years.United
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States with political division with the
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rhetoric on social media of judgmentalism
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hatred and just I feel like the american
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christian church is going through kind of
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hatred, period of reckoning with church
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scandals and post pandemic wondering
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should we go back to church Why should we
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go back to church And my neighbors here in
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Portland there's a lot of negativity
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towards the Church It's a highly
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unchurched area The general sentiment is
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from reading the news and the politics of
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the day churches just reflect the worst of
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society.Racism sexism greed narcissism
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extreme individualism all of that I don't
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think that's true for all churches But I
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do think we're dealing with that. major
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reputational issue with the american all
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evangelical church in terms of who are we
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a makes us tick What's driving us Is it
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about goodness or is it about power Is it
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about Jesus Or is it about you know when
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people say to me who aren't a part of a
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church or who are maybe disenchanted with
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say church when they say to me
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christianity is ugly or christianity is
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hurting people what I really want to tell
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them is that's not Jesus That's not the
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Jesus I know That's not the Christianity
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that it was meant to be.So the kind of
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hook for my book is my editor know hey I
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like your book but you need a better hook
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So I put this in the book at the very end
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of writing it I went to Costco a handful
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of years ago which I love And part of my
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Portland hippiness is I like coconut water
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And so I was looking for a good coconut
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water Portland Costco was selling this
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brand of coconut water that's pink.And I'd
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always thought of coconut water, as clear
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In fact I have a group of students and I
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put always picture of a clear bottle just
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recently into the group So I was kind of
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confused Why is this coconut a pink And
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there's actually a sign on the label that
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says why is this pink So I read the sign
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and it a when we open up that coconut and
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the liquid inside interacts with oxygen it
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naturally turns the sugars pink So real
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coconut a is meant to be pink Then I'm
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wondering why have I always seen clear
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coconut water And the answer is when you
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buy the gas station or when you buy it at
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Kroger's or whatever the chemically
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altering it to give you gas sense of
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pristine to give you at sense of clear
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that isn't true to what it actually should
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look like And I thought what a great
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analogy for that synthesized Christianity
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which we often see in celebrity forms of
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Christianity that we often see in some a
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forms attractional forms.So my book really
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is if coconut water Christianity, pink I
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want the in stuff And if Christianity is
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weird I want the weird stuff Like I want
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to know what it's actually supposed to be
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like So my book is an attempt Lori to get
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people to go back to the origins of
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Christianity to see what it was always
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meant to be as a revolution a social
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political economic religious spiritual
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moral revolution to change the world to
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the way that Jesus envisioned the world to
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be which is very different than Trump's
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America very different than Biden's
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America and very different than Caesar's
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Rome And I want to different enchant
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people with Christianity by showing them
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the beautiful side of what the early
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christians started in the first century.I
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love that reenchant And when I read your
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coconut water section I was like what in
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blown right Because I also shop at Costco
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but know grew up in Venezuela where we had
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coconuts on the beach and loved one of our
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favorite things to do when we lived in
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Sumatra and Indonesia was go to the beach
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every usually on the weekend and order do
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call it kalapamuda which is young
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coconut.The achinese way is much faster So
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any achinese people listening and you just
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say like it's so much faster But they just
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chop off the top of the coconut They put
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and straw in there and the coconut part is
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white they meat part inside that you can
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scoop out and eat So I guess I just always
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assumed it was white, too because I never
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really drank the water out of the actual
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coconut.Right Even I was in Rio in
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November I had one on the beach there
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Every coconut I've ever had I've always
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just assumed it's like clear and white But
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I guess if you take it out and this is
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where you're just blowing our minds
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because some people think of Christianity
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a certain way and they're not wrong to say
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there's narcissism there's abuse there's
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sexism there's racism because christendom
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has shown and is showing us that.But
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you're pointing us back to christians in
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there's early church You're pointing us
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back to Jesus and the things that he said
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that are very different than this
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christians nationalism we're seeing in the
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US And so I think that one of the parts of
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your book that I really enjoyed was where
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you talk about the scenes in the homes of
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like Athens and Pompeii households right
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So there's this paraphernalia of goods
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that people might encounter which a
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western home here maybe in Portland or
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even California might not really
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comprehend Living in Asia seeing hindu
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gods in people's homes or traveling in
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Thailand and in know it's common but it's
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for really lot of the westerners listening
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they don't understand.But you compare it
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to modern sports heroes tell us how that's
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different and similar to what they would
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have encountered Yeah well you have to
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understand the ancient world It's very
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different than a modern western mentality
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towards religion in a separation of church
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and state kind of place like America
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because we often treat today religion a
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optional and personal So it's optional in
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the sense that if I get to church I will
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If not I won't.And it's very like what's
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it doing for me It's a fulfillment
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oriented thing for many people not
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everybody but for many people it's a
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fulfillment oriented So you say I wasn't
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feeling the sermon I wasn't feeling the
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music It's very much like it's almost like
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food Like is it delicious Do I like it Do
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I not like it I won't go back again to
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that restaurant And then secondly it's
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very personal and privatized so you could
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be religious and not one ever know because
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you do it in the privacy of your home or
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the privacy of the church or synagogue or
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whatever that you go to if you're
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religious in America in the ancient world
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much like places like India today it's
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national it's cultural it's heritage
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oriented it's built to the fabric of life
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So just talking about the roman world
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roman religion.So Rome had kind of what
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we'd think of as a state religion This was
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the roman gods right So religion was
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public it was obligatory and it was all
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practical It's like you make sacrifices
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you go to these festivals you participate
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in these events and it was it everywhere
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You couldn't go anywhere.There weren't
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traces of the gods whether that's out to a
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restaurant places of business it's in your
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homes all over the place as art as
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religious paraphernalia rituals in your
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house you go to the to a or the local
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Ispian games or whatever it is and just
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like we have the pledge of allegiance or
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the national anthem at sports games those
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are vestiges in America of this or of
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thing Trevor Noah was talking about this
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He said america's the only country where
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you're going to sing the national anthem
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at America local sports game between two
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local teams He said in countries like
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Germany you're only going to do that if
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you're playing the country But this would
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be an example of the kind of thing that
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you would do in the roman world where
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you're going to pay tribute to the gods
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everywhere all of the time.And whether you
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feel in your heart or not do matter And
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that's one of the things I talk about in
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my book It's just you do know it's like
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having the picture of the president United
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States somewhere It's just everywhere And
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so part of the point of my book. is
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helping people understand the environment
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the early christians grew up in where you
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didn't have to tell someone to be
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religious.It was really a question of
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which gods are the most powerful which
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gods are the ones you need to follow and
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pay worship and obeyance to And not like
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today where it's sort of like if I feel
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like being religious I'll be religious or
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it's kind of a phase It was funny I used
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to teach at Seattle Pacific University and
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we did this religion survey to incoming
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students and there's certain boxes they
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could check a one would be like I a
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Christian Another would be I'm an atheist
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or agnostic And one would be I'm a non
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practicing Christian.And that was one of
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the most common boxes that was checked And
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it makes sense on like atheist or because
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people might perceive themselves that a
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but it doesn't make sense for actual
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religious people who would say you can't
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be a non practicing Christian you're the a
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form you're not Yeah I understand why that
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would be so commonly checked based on how
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things are and around the world I think
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I've encountered this quite a bit where
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it's like in I you are not allowed to be
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atheists because of some history back in
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the 60s when communism was kind of
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becoming more prominent in places like
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Vietnam or wherever And so Indonesia was
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rejecting that And they require their
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citizens history under this thing called
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panchasila where they have five religions
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and you have to check one of them.And your
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identity card shows you know you have some
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Muslims that don't really practice You
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have Christians Hindus Buddhists and some
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people who actually would otherwise
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identify as atheists But it's not an
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option because they equated that back in
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the 60s with communism and so kind of
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forced people to choose a religion in that
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situation So I think everywhere has their
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own nuance and I think what we're in with
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here in the United States Portland in
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particular here in California a well is
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people who have had some pretty bad
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experiences with the church Even think the
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90s when I was in seminary in northern
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here in the Bay Area we were encountering
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people who would move to California just
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to get away from the Bible belt because
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they'd had abusive experiences with their
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pastor their priest or you know it's a lot
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of trauma for people.So some people might
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have identified as Christian they might
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have been the ones to check that box But
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what you're trying to point out in the
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book is that religion then versus religion
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now You talk about there's this kind of
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consumer product versus the gods are in
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charge So how does that play out
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differently Well let's go back to the
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sports thing because I think that gives us
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a better understanding of the saturation
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of religion at the time.So here in
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Portland we don't have a football team We
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do have soccer but we also have basketball
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And everybody I would say 80 70 80 of
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people walking around the streets of
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Portland are wearing some sort of sports
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paraphernalia whether it's a hat a but
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shirt Portland trailblazers Portland
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timbers the billboards Know in the old
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days it would be Damien Lillard.What do
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you consume in your off time You're
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watching highlight clips you're a up to go
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to the big game you're watching on tv That
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saturation is what we're talking about in
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the ancient world Now the big difference
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between sports and religion in the ancient
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world was it was to And so in that sense
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imagine that the United States became
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colonized.Another nation came and took
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over That's kind of the way that Rome
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viewed the relationship with the gods The
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gods are like spiritual or supernatural
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masters and we are subjects And so
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religion was I use the latin terminology
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because I want people to understand it
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from kind of relationship roman
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perspective Their understanding of
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religion they referred to as the pox de
427
00:18:36,562 --> 00:18:41,122
orum peace with the gods or peaceful
428
00:18:41,122 --> 00:18:43,074
coexistence with the gods.So let's say we
429
00:18:43,074 --> 00:18:45,426
were colonized by another nation You don't
430
00:18:45,426 --> 00:18:48,886
a to be friends You don't want to be
431
00:18:48,886 --> 00:18:51,366
budies Your main goal is to keep peace
432
00:18:51,366 --> 00:18:54,898
right You want to stay off the radar in
433
00:18:54,898 --> 00:18:57,110
bad ways.You want to negotiate in ways
434
00:18:57,110 --> 00:19:00,598
that get you more benefits and privileges
435
00:19:00,598 --> 00:19:02,374
This is basically the way that Rome viewed
436
00:19:02,374 --> 00:19:04,906
their relationship with their gods It
437
00:19:04,906 --> 00:19:06,666
wasn't praying to Abba Father It wasn't
438
00:19:06,666 --> 00:19:09,386
Jesus is my copilot It wasn't anything
439
00:19:09,386 --> 00:19:11,710
like that.It was keep them happy keep and
440
00:19:11,710 --> 00:19:15,146
safe distance don't get on their bad side
441
00:19:15,146 --> 00:19:18,606
And if you get in their good graces you
442
00:19:18,606 --> 00:19:21,486
might get some more privileges and
443
00:19:21,486 --> 00:19:24,958
benefits But basically you don't want them
444
00:19:24,958 --> 00:19:28,370
to drop was nuke You don't want them to
445
00:19:28,370 --> 00:19:31,634
drop an Olympus nuke on you and you just
446
00:19:31,634 --> 00:19:33,426
want to keep their peace Yeah.So both of
447
00:19:33,426 --> 00:19:37,446
my boys have been into the Percy Jackson
448
00:19:37,446 --> 00:19:39,078
books and then them current tv show that
449
00:19:39,078 --> 00:19:40,994
everybody's into right now my oldest when
450
00:19:40,994 --> 00:19:42,758
we lived in Singapore The libraries are
451
00:19:42,758 --> 00:19:47,718
incredible there and the widely available
452
00:19:47,718 --> 00:19:49,394
So he checked all those books out from the
453
00:19:49,394 --> 00:19:52,342
library and read them And the there was a
454
00:19:52,342 --> 00:19:54,858
movie that came out back then But this
455
00:19:54,858 --> 00:19:56,486
current tv show we've been watching it
456
00:19:56,486 --> 00:19:58,234
mean it's kind of silly.They have this
457
00:19:58,234 --> 00:19:59,178
white american kid that's interacting with
458
00:19:59,178 --> 00:20:00,138
these gods or whatever but it kind of
459
00:20:00,138 --> 00:20:01,386
reminds you of that element like the power
460
00:20:01,386 --> 00:20:02,698
then. fear that people must have lived
461
00:20:02,698 --> 00:20:05,374
under So yeah help us understand a little
462
00:20:05,374 --> 00:20:09,118
bit more about what it would have been
463
00:20:09,118 --> 00:20:11,518
like for early christians to suddenly be
464
00:20:11,518 --> 00:20:13,326
like I'm not afraid of those gods How was
465
00:20:13,326 --> 00:20:16,814
that significant I really like the Percy
466
00:20:16,814 --> 00:20:18,706
Jackson series because it got my son into
467
00:20:18,706 --> 00:20:19,746
greek mythology and he's really interested
468
00:20:19,746 --> 00:20:24,078
in that I did my undergraduate in classics
469
00:20:24,078 --> 00:20:26,986
and so I love that stuff too.It's actually
470
00:20:26,986 --> 00:20:31,334
a pretty good representation of what greco
471
00:20:31,334 --> 00:20:33,894
roman myth was like because even in the
472
00:20:33,894 --> 00:20:36,854
show there's That is you know he's really
473
00:20:36,854 --> 00:20:38,246
half breed There's that sense that the
474
00:20:38,246 --> 00:20:39,514
other people in that mythological world
475
00:20:39,514 --> 00:20:43,286
know the gods don't care a much about
476
00:20:43,286 --> 00:20:45,802
humans And there's a question about that
477
00:20:45,802 --> 00:20:48,860
right And they're in to figure that
478
00:20:48,860 --> 00:20:52,970
out.But the overall sentiment is the gods
479
00:20:52,970 --> 00:20:57,550
treat the earth as their playground and
480
00:20:57,550 --> 00:21:00,426
they can sleep with people and the can
481
00:21:00,426 --> 00:21:01,726
manipulate and take advantage of people
482
00:21:01,726 --> 00:21:03,238
but they don't actually love or care about
483
00:21:03,238 --> 00:21:05,550
They play that up in the show Okay there's
484
00:21:05,550 --> 00:21:08,226
this kid but generally speaking the don't
485
00:21:08,226 --> 00:21:10,002
And that's pretty close to the greco roman
486
00:21:10,002 --> 00:21:15,246
myths of they ancient world where Zeus
487
00:21:15,246 --> 00:21:17,734
will come down and there's an old story of
488
00:21:17,734 --> 00:21:20,022
Zeus coming down and wanting to sleep with
489
00:21:20,022 --> 00:21:22,946
this woman so he has to send the husband
490
00:21:22,946 --> 00:21:25,926
away so he can sleep with the wife and all
491
00:21:25,926 --> 00:21:28,966
this stuff They just treat humans as their
492
00:21:28,966 --> 00:21:30,726
playthings.And the christians come along
493
00:21:30,726 --> 00:21:32,598
and they're preaching a whole different
494
00:21:32,598 --> 00:21:34,986
way of looking at reality We call this
495
00:21:34,986 --> 00:21:36,266
epistemology and they actually shift the
496
00:21:36,266 --> 00:21:37,302
entire paradigm of religion If religion
497
00:21:37,302 --> 00:21:39,514
the religion paradigm was empire power
498
00:21:39,514 --> 00:21:41,870
coercion hierarchy christians shift it
499
00:21:41,870 --> 00:21:45,642
playthings. a way where now it's more like
500
00:21:45,642 --> 00:21:49,290
preaching a The one place where you would
501
00:21:49,290 --> 00:21:53,442
see hierarchy softened or almost even
502
00:21:53,442 --> 00:21:56,674
eliminated not quite but almost is in the
503
00:21:56,674 --> 00:21:58,286
household specifically with biological
504
00:21:58,286 --> 00:22:05,066
family members or often married in family
505
00:22:05,066 --> 00:22:07,366
members So the best example we see is
506
00:22:07,366 --> 00:22:10,662
parent child a and sibling
507
00:22:10,662 --> 00:22:12,022
relationships.We've studied for example
508
00:22:12,022 --> 00:22:17,538
tombstones They're called funerary
509
00:22:17,538 --> 00:22:20,874
inscriptions but we studied these
510
00:22:20,874 --> 00:22:24,246
tombstones And if you read greco roman
511
00:22:24,246 --> 00:22:28,714
tombstones you see family lot of warmth of
512
00:22:28,714 --> 00:22:32,238
parents towards a child who died when they
513
00:22:32,238 --> 00:22:39,566
were ten or when they were six You see the
514
00:22:39,566 --> 00:22:42,526
most amount of warmth there The Christians
515
00:22:42,526 --> 00:22:45,006
drawing off of Jesus drawing off of the
516
00:22:45,006 --> 00:22:46,866
Old Testament.They frame God not as a
517
00:22:46,866 --> 00:22:49,746
terrifying overlord but really as towards
518
00:22:49,746 --> 00:22:52,546
loving parent that wants to take care of
519
00:22:52,546 --> 00:22:54,386
you that's full of grace Think about
520
00:22:54,386 --> 00:22:57,430
Hebrews Let us approach the throne of
521
00:22:57,430 --> 00:22:59,926
grace It's not the throne of power even
522
00:22:59,926 --> 00:23:05,238
though God's powerful it's not the throne
523
00:23:05,238 --> 00:23:09,842
of judgment even though he judges It's a
524
00:23:09,842 --> 00:23:11,866
throne of grace with confidence because
525
00:23:11,866 --> 00:23:13,498
you know you'll receive mercy and grace.
526
00:23:13,498 --> 00:23:16,282
had about whole paradigm shift Now is God
527
00:23:16,282 --> 00:23:18,874
still in charge Yes but it's really the
528
00:23:18,874 --> 00:23:20,858
culture of the kingdom of God that was
529
00:23:20,858 --> 00:23:22,986
shifting I'll give you he example But you
530
00:23:22,986 --> 00:23:26,394
read the book you can pick up on all sorts
531
00:23:26,394 --> 00:23:28,174
of threads.One thing that Rome perfected
532
00:23:28,174 --> 00:23:30,398
was class putting The whole ancient world
533
00:23:30,398 --> 00:23:34,078
was seen as this pyramid of power and you
534
00:23:34,078 --> 00:23:36,898
had the gods at the top demigods deified
535
00:23:36,898 --> 00:23:38,098
people then you had the emperor that
536
00:23:38,098 --> 00:23:39,106
represents kind of the beginning of the
537
00:23:39,106 --> 00:23:43,010
human side and then you have people of
538
00:23:43,010 --> 00:23:46,574
high class senators equestrians but then
539
00:23:46,574 --> 00:23:49,526
you have this huge group of people at the
540
00:23:49,526 --> 00:23:53,410
bottom of this pyramid that are the urban
541
00:23:53,410 --> 00:23:54,950
poor slaves immigrants people disabilities
542
00:23:54,950 --> 00:23:57,526
things like that who just have no hope of
543
00:23:57,526 --> 00:24:00,074
much the than just scraping at a living
544
00:24:00,074 --> 00:24:02,906
And you would have senators, do all kinds
545
00:24:02,906 --> 00:24:04,138
of bad stuff to get socially mobile and
546
00:24:04,138 --> 00:24:05,946
upward And here the Christians come along
547
00:24:05,946 --> 00:24:11,840
and they say every human is the exact same
548
00:24:11,840 --> 00:24:15,294
in the eyes of God There's one phrase
549
00:24:15,294 --> 00:24:19,166
that's repeated a lot in the New
550
00:24:19,166 --> 00:24:20,894
Testament.God is no respecter of persons
551
00:24:20,894 --> 00:24:23,626
meaning God doesn't treat one type of
552
00:24:23,626 --> 00:24:26,126
person as more important than another Now
553
00:24:26,126 --> 00:24:29,922
you and I hold that dear as modern
554
00:24:29,922 --> 00:24:31,282
westerners that believe in the inherent
555
00:24:31,282 --> 00:24:34,018
dignity of the individual But where did we
556
00:24:34,018 --> 00:24:37,378
get that from We got the idea from the
557
00:24:37,378 --> 00:24:40,806
early Christians They truly believed in
558
00:24:40,806 --> 00:24:42,582
the inherent dignity of the
559
00:24:42,582 --> 00:24:44,886
individuals.For example in the roman world
560
00:24:44,886 --> 00:24:48,262
a very common practice was called infant
561
00:24:48,262 --> 00:24:51,546
exposure That if you had a child that you
562
00:24:51,546 --> 00:24:56,140
didn't want either because they we a girl
563
00:24:56,140 --> 00:24:58,874
or because they had some physical blemish
564
00:24:58,874 --> 00:25:03,206
or some birth defect you would literally
565
00:25:03,206 --> 00:25:05,486
leave them on the side of the road or out
566
00:25:05,486 --> 00:25:09,486
in the woods to die or to be taken into
567
00:25:09,486 --> 00:25:11,066
slavery It's had very common practice We
568
00:25:11,066 --> 00:25:13,422
have lots of information about this in the
569
00:25:13,422 --> 00:25:16,510
ancient world and christians oppose this
570
00:25:16,510 --> 00:25:20,174
This is talked about in second century
571
00:25:20,174 --> 00:25:21,026
christian literature.But even the idea
572
00:25:21,026 --> 00:25:22,594
that God doesn't have or led to this idea
573
00:25:22,594 --> 00:25:26,306
that we need to protect the orphan and the
574
00:25:26,306 --> 00:25:28,070
widow We need to protect the outsiders the
575
00:25:28,070 --> 00:25:29,510
marginalized These were just some pieces
576
00:25:29,510 --> 00:25:32,726
of how christians saw the world
577
00:25:32,726 --> 00:25:33,826
differently because of their theology
578
00:25:33,826 --> 00:25:36,486
which led to a different anthropology idea
579
00:25:36,486 --> 00:25:40,614
different socioeconomic And so.You know
580
00:25:40,614 --> 00:25:42,586
having this conversation here in the
581
00:25:42,586 --> 00:25:44,614
United States under the current know we're
582
00:25:44,614 --> 00:25:48,394
in an election year I feel like we don't
583
00:25:48,394 --> 00:25:51,534
stop being in an election year in America
584
00:25:51,534 --> 00:25:54,698
Now that I'm living here I'm realizing
585
00:25:54,698 --> 00:25:58,320
it's just a constant thing but it's just
586
00:25:58,320 --> 00:26:06,570
always a part of the narrative But the
587
00:26:06,570 --> 00:26:08,046
nuance is obviously different from what it
588
00:26:08,046 --> 00:26:10,740
was like under the roman government But
589
00:26:10,740 --> 00:26:13,074
when we really acknowledge that early
590
00:26:13,074 --> 00:26:14,226
Christians were in empire rejecting power
591
00:26:14,226 --> 00:26:15,838
over as Jesus taught us to we're not
592
00:26:15,838 --> 00:26:19,574
supposed to lord over when they took that
593
00:26:19,574 --> 00:26:20,658
seriously.And now we're seeing those very
594
00:26:20,658 --> 00:26:24,054
things be done We're seeing women be
595
00:26:24,054 --> 00:26:25,154
strong armed in the church We're seeing
596
00:26:25,154 --> 00:26:27,062
people overpowering others who are
597
00:26:27,062 --> 00:26:30,918
immigrating here for reasons that are
598
00:26:30,918 --> 00:26:35,254
horrible I understand like awful things
599
00:26:35,254 --> 00:26:36,666
that bring people here for safety for
600
00:26:36,666 --> 00:26:39,530
caring for their family and the compassion
601
00:26:39,530 --> 00:26:43,098
and all of that It just often seems in the
602
00:26:43,098 --> 00:26:45,594
public sphere to be somewhat absent from a
603
00:26:45,594 --> 00:26:51,290
lot of Christians And so if there's people
604
00:26:51,290 --> 00:26:57,394
from Portland listening to this right now
605
00:26:57,394 --> 00:26:59,522
who might check that box that Seattle
606
00:26:59,522 --> 00:27:01,506
Pacific University it says I identify as
607
00:27:01,506 --> 00:27:04,338
christian but I don't.Is some of the
608
00:27:04,338 --> 00:27:07,826
things that. you're writing about in your
609
00:27:07,826 --> 00:27:09,846
book and that you're researching for this
610
00:27:09,846 --> 00:27:12,626
what is so compelling for you about Jesus
611
00:27:12,626 --> 00:27:14,534
and Christianity Why do you stay in light
612
00:27:14,534 --> 00:27:17,026
of all of that There's a christian writer
613
00:27:17,026 --> 00:27:19,782
who died named Rachel Haldevins And I
614
00:27:19,782 --> 00:27:24,154
didn't follow her work super closely but a
615
00:27:24,154 --> 00:27:25,386
couple of things really have stuck with me
616
00:27:25,386 --> 00:27:28,330
One thing that she said this, every
617
00:27:28,330 --> 00:27:30,634
generation or two Christianity must die
618
00:27:30,634 --> 00:27:32,462
and rise again.What that means is
619
00:27:32,462 --> 00:27:33,920
christians have done some terrible things
620
00:27:33,920 --> 00:27:39,194
throughout history There's no benefit in
621
00:27:39,194 --> 00:27:42,606
hiding that But the good news is we're
622
00:27:42,606 --> 00:27:44,786
never stuck We can change We can change it
623
00:27:44,786 --> 00:27:46,786
for the better.I love the story of
624
00:27:46,786 --> 00:27:48,946
Dietrich von Hoeffer a famous christian
625
00:27:48,946 --> 00:27:50,846
theologian and opponent of Nazi Germany
626
00:27:50,846 --> 00:27:55,950
When he was alive in the early middle 20th
627
00:27:55,950 --> 00:28:00,326
century he was like a 13 year old and he
628
00:28:00,326 --> 00:28:04,246
was on fire for Jesus And his parents were
629
00:28:04,246 --> 00:28:06,006
kind of agnostic not interested in it not
630
00:28:06,006 --> 00:28:08,498
interested in church He walks into his
631
00:28:08,498 --> 00:28:11,914
kitchen in the morning and says I want to
632
00:28:11,914 --> 00:28:14,220
be Nazi pastor And his family his parents
633
00:28:14,220 --> 00:28:19,146
say why would you want to be a a The
634
00:28:19,146 --> 00:28:21,558
church is corrupt And he thought for a
635
00:28:21,558 --> 00:28:26,814
second and said then I will reform the
636
00:28:26,814 --> 00:28:29,326
church.I want to believe That is a great
637
00:28:29,326 --> 00:28:31,102
and beautiful thing for anyone who feels
638
00:28:31,102 --> 00:28:31,918
like their movement has gone astray
639
00:28:31,918 --> 00:28:34,030
whether it's pastor. political movement
640
00:28:34,030 --> 00:28:35,346
family, religious movement say, social
641
00:28:35,346 --> 00:28:36,626
movement we can always say a are the good
642
00:28:36,626 --> 00:28:38,914
and beautiful and true things that a us
643
00:28:38,914 --> 00:28:45,058
who we are at the beginning How can we
644
00:28:45,058 --> 00:28:49,654
come back to that now So what I want to
645
00:28:49,654 --> 00:28:51,394
say to people who are experiencing
646
00:28:51,394 --> 00:28:51,894
disillusionment disenchantment
647
00:28:51,894 --> 00:28:54,246
disappointment one phrase that we use the
648
00:28:54,246 --> 00:28:58,118
a world is a Fontez go back to the
649
00:28:58,118 --> 00:28:59,606
beginning Go back to the fountain.Go back
650
00:28:59,606 --> 00:29:01,146
to the beginning And not to say that
651
00:29:01,146 --> 00:29:02,586
everything at happened beginning? the
652
00:29:02,586 --> 00:29:03,466
first two centuries Christianity was
653
00:29:03,466 --> 00:29:04,506
perfect But that's where we get the core
654
00:29:04,506 --> 00:29:11,686
ideas of what makes us tick When I see
655
00:29:11,686 --> 00:29:12,566
christians who are negatively representing
656
00:29:12,566 --> 00:29:14,366
Christianity today I have to believe they
657
00:29:14,366 --> 00:29:16,618
haven't actually sat down and thought how
658
00:29:16,618 --> 00:29:19,614
are they going to live out the sermon on
659
00:29:19,614 --> 00:29:21,006
the mount I've been working on the book
660
00:29:21,006 --> 00:29:24,466
because even though was book comes out
661
00:29:24,466 --> 00:29:26,706
you're working on the next thing.And the
662
00:29:26,706 --> 00:29:30,290
book that I'm working on right now
663
00:29:30,290 --> 00:29:33,614
christians on love language representing
664
00:29:33,614 --> 00:29:38,610
the Bible And I believe that they absolute
665
00:29:38,610 --> 00:29:41,366
hardest teaching in the whole Bible is
666
00:29:41,366 --> 00:29:42,518
when Jesus says love your enemies I can't
667
00:29:42,518 --> 00:29:44,806
think of anything more difficult
668
00:29:44,806 --> 00:29:46,166
especially in our world today What you're
669
00:29:46,166 --> 00:29:47,542
talking about with the political strife we
670
00:29:47,542 --> 00:29:49,410
understand justice against our enemies We
671
00:29:49,410 --> 00:29:51,402
might even understand being polite to our
672
00:29:51,402 --> 00:29:53,514
enemies.That's hard enough But actually
673
00:29:53,514 --> 00:29:56,198
loving them wishing good things for them
674
00:29:56,198 --> 00:29:58,646
bringing good things upon them that in
675
00:29:58,646 --> 00:30:01,254
many cases we are so far away from that
676
00:30:01,254 --> 00:30:03,838
that is almost unfathomable And I think it
677
00:30:03,838 --> 00:30:07,198
goes back to this idea Who is the other
678
00:30:07,198 --> 00:30:11,262
person Is the other person an evil person
679
00:30:11,262 --> 00:30:15,426
to hate Or are they a human being made in
680
00:30:15,426 --> 00:30:18,610
the image of God worth honoring and
681
00:30:18,610 --> 00:30:22,386
respecting even though I strongly disagree
682
00:30:22,386 --> 00:30:24,354
with them on things that are important to
683
00:30:24,354 --> 00:30:28,598
me and important to them I don't know if I
684
00:30:28,598 --> 00:30:30,726
it your question directly but I hope that
685
00:30:30,726 --> 00:30:34,466
gets us started Yeah I love Rachel Hild
686
00:30:34,466 --> 00:30:40,074
Evans I read her a lot when I was being
687
00:30:40,074 --> 00:30:43,126
you know so heartbroken when she passed
688
00:30:43,126 --> 00:30:46,134
away.So you know left everyone hanging We
689
00:30:46,134 --> 00:30:48,266
wanted to know more of what she would have
690
00:30:48,266 --> 00:30:51,098
had to say But her words certainly you
691
00:30:51,098 --> 00:30:52,766
know I think about the whole loving your
692
00:30:52,766 --> 00:30:56,266
enemies in light of Sarah McCammon has a
693
00:30:56,266 --> 00:30:58,206
she's I interviewed her read for the
694
00:30:58,206 --> 00:31:01,114
podcast so by the time this releases her
695
00:31:01,114 --> 00:31:06,130
podcast will already be out But she has a
696
00:31:06,130 --> 00:31:07,394
book called Exangelicals.She's the NPR
697
00:31:07,394 --> 00:31:08,306
reporter and she covered the Donald Trump
698
00:31:08,306 --> 00:31:12,450
campaign in 2016 And I was reading her
699
00:31:12,450 --> 00:31:16,382
book in the same coffee shop and started
700
00:31:16,382 --> 00:31:18,914
to tear up in the introduction because
701
00:31:18,914 --> 00:31:20,918
there's a part where she talks about
702
00:31:20,918 --> 00:31:23,202
looking around the room and people Trump
703
00:31:23,202 --> 00:31:24,806
would get people into this frenzy and
704
00:31:24,806 --> 00:31:27,138
these rallies She would start off having
705
00:31:27,138 --> 00:31:28,886
nice exchanges with these and from the
706
00:31:28,886 --> 00:31:32,998
midwest and then all of a sudden he'll say
707
00:31:32,998 --> 00:31:34,618
reporters are the worst people in the
708
00:31:34,618 --> 00:31:36,506
world And people get this cathartic anger
709
00:31:36,506 --> 00:31:38,234
that they sort of express toward the
710
00:31:38,234 --> 00:31:42,010
reporters in the room And she was one of
711
00:31:42,010 --> 00:31:44,174
them.And she had some horrible things that
712
00:31:44,174 --> 00:31:47,342
people would have said nice things to her
713
00:31:47,342 --> 00:31:50,414
She's walking in and then in that moment
714
00:31:50,414 --> 00:31:54,554
they say horrible things to her And it's
715
00:31:54,554 --> 00:31:55,822
very traumatic But she has this moment
716
00:31:55,822 --> 00:31:58,122
where she remembers her evangelical
717
00:31:58,122 --> 00:32:00,318
upbring and this phrase know love your
718
00:32:00,318 --> 00:32:01,794
enemies And it's a really powerful part of
719
00:32:01,794 --> 00:32:03,426
the book.And I think about people all
720
00:32:03,426 --> 00:32:05,634
around the world here in the United States
721
00:32:05,634 --> 00:32:07,186
It might be that if you're a Democrat you
722
00:32:07,186 --> 00:32:08,642
hate republicans If you're say Republican
723
00:32:08,642 --> 00:32:10,774
you hate Democrat or whatever or it could
724
00:32:10,774 --> 00:32:12,646
just be you hate immigrants If you've
725
00:32:12,646 --> 00:32:15,286
lived on this and since your people came
726
00:32:15,286 --> 00:32:17,078
over on the Mayflower I don't know But
727
00:32:17,078 --> 00:32:19,574
whatever the case may be wherever people
728
00:32:19,574 --> 00:32:21,046
are in the know there's definitely in the
729
00:32:21,046 --> 00:32:22,234
Middle east.If you're jewish if you're
730
00:32:22,234 --> 00:32:24,778
Muslim there's so much in the world that
731
00:32:24,778 --> 00:32:27,194
would a us to divide and conquer instead
732
00:32:27,194 --> 00:32:29,466
of join together And I think that once
733
00:32:29,466 --> 00:32:31,210
again loving your enemies this the
734
00:32:31,210 --> 00:32:33,562
absolute hardest thing even a hard thing
735
00:32:33,562 --> 00:32:36,746
That kind of is a step before that is just
736
00:32:36,746 --> 00:32:39,358
suspending judgment I work in tech there's
737
00:32:39,358 --> 00:32:40,606
definitely Silicon Valley and leadership
738
00:32:40,606 --> 00:32:44,162
development so I've got all around there's
739
00:32:44,162 --> 00:32:48,274
world I literally get paid to teach people
740
00:32:48,274 --> 00:32:50,334
how to listen to understand and things
741
00:32:50,334 --> 00:32:53,566
like that.It's super kind of crazy that I
742
00:32:53,566 --> 00:32:57,154
get paid for that but one of the things I
743
00:32:57,154 --> 00:32:59,074
train on is suspending judgment We don't
744
00:32:59,074 --> 00:33:01,926
have good models in our society for that
745
00:33:01,926 --> 00:33:04,114
I'm still a work in progress I'm not
746
00:33:04,114 --> 00:33:05,254
leadership PhD in suspending judgment But
747
00:33:05,254 --> 00:33:06,838
it's really hard.But taking that a step
748
00:33:06,838 --> 00:33:08,934
further to just hear what someone's saying
749
00:33:08,934 --> 00:33:11,286
not judge them but love them If they're
750
00:33:11,286 --> 00:33:12,690
actually living this human life in an
751
00:33:12,690 --> 00:33:13,962
opposite way that goes against your own
752
00:33:13,962 --> 00:33:16,758
values that's such a hard ask and yet we
753
00:33:16,758 --> 00:33:18,794
see Jesus doing that and that's for me one
754
00:33:18,794 --> 00:33:21,606
of the reasons I'm can't let him go In
755
00:33:21,606 --> 00:33:23,786
spite of all the things people have done
756
00:33:23,786 --> 00:33:25,546
in his name that are horrible There's
757
00:33:25,546 --> 00:33:27,886
something about who Jesus was that I want
758
00:33:27,886 --> 00:33:30,154
to be more like I want to be that
759
00:33:30,154 --> 00:33:31,646
person.So thank you for expressing why
760
00:33:31,646 --> 00:33:35,006
you're still in it why this book matters
761
00:33:35,006 --> 00:33:38,002
Is there any last thing before I ask you
762
00:33:38,002 --> 00:33:39,474
to tell us where that people can't find
763
00:33:39,474 --> 00:33:41,986
you and all that Is there any last thing
764
00:33:41,986 --> 00:33:45,166
that you want people to know about this
765
00:33:45,166 --> 00:33:46,958
book that we kind of haven't covered or
766
00:33:46,958 --> 00:33:48,006
something You don't maybe typically get
767
00:33:48,006 --> 00:33:50,086
asked I would just say over time a
768
00:33:50,086 --> 00:33:51,990
movement like Christianity is going to
769
00:33:51,990 --> 00:33:56,360
build up just gunk on it things that don't
770
00:33:56,360 --> 00:33:58,406
reflect kind of the original layer.It's
771
00:33:58,406 --> 00:33:59,766
kind of like dust collecting on a painting
772
00:33:59,766 --> 00:34:01,178
And then you say oh that's an ugly
773
00:34:01,178 --> 00:34:03,706
painting But if you're able to clean it up
774
00:34:03,706 --> 00:34:05,398
if you're able to clean it off and see
775
00:34:05,398 --> 00:34:09,580
what it looked like and say okay that's
776
00:34:09,580 --> 00:34:14,014
beautiful I'm actually seeing the colors I
777
00:34:14,014 --> 00:34:18,046
would just say for those that are
778
00:34:18,046 --> 00:34:21,454
listening and you say you know what I've
779
00:34:21,454 --> 00:34:23,886
seen Christianity.It's not great and I'm
780
00:34:23,886 --> 00:34:25,934
not interested Or if you were christian
781
00:34:25,934 --> 00:34:28,186
you say I've seen the dark underbelly of
782
00:34:28,186 --> 00:34:29,586
Christianity First of all I want to say
783
00:34:29,586 --> 00:34:30,946
I'm sorry Cornell West clean line that he
784
00:34:30,946 --> 00:34:32,930
uses what lot that stuck with me is let
785
00:34:32,930 --> 00:34:35,426
suffering speak I really want to let
786
00:34:35,426 --> 00:34:36,466
suffering speak for the atrocities that
787
00:34:36,466 --> 00:34:39,634
are done then and now in the name of Jesus
788
00:34:39,634 --> 00:34:41,878
by christians who should know better.But I
789
00:34:41,878 --> 00:34:43,878
would say there's so much in scripture
790
00:34:43,878 --> 00:34:46,726
that has done so many good things for the
791
00:34:46,726 --> 00:34:50,098
things we take for granted right now That
792
00:34:50,098 --> 00:34:51,626
doesn't brush a some of he challenges but
793
00:34:51,626 --> 00:34:54,106
it does say if you want to refresh your
794
00:34:54,106 --> 00:34:55,946
faith or give it another chance sit down
795
00:34:55,946 --> 00:34:58,906
with the teachings of Jesus I'd say start
796
00:34:58,906 --> 00:35:03,214
with the sermon on the mount and just read
797
00:35:03,214 --> 00:35:09,054
it slowly read it carefully and see what
798
00:35:09,054 --> 00:35:11,662
resonates with you And be a bonhoeffer Say
799
00:35:11,662 --> 00:35:15,026
okay I don't like what's going on in the
800
00:35:15,026 --> 00:35:18,866
church.Maybe I'm going to help put a stop
801
00:35:18,866 --> 00:35:23,266
to it And I'm trying to do that And I hope
802
00:35:23,266 --> 00:35:25,634
my book will offer some inspiration in
803
00:35:25,634 --> 00:35:27,198
that direction Well it certainly does I
804
00:35:27,198 --> 00:35:28,738
love it.I love that you're writing it from
805
00:35:28,738 --> 00:35:30,246
the perspective of read weird Portlander
806
00:35:30,246 --> 00:35:33,686
in the best way and that you're bringing
807
00:35:33,686 --> 00:35:36,518
in something really a and helping us
808
00:35:36,518 --> 00:35:37,398
understand as readers in 2024 what that
809
00:35:37,398 --> 00:35:38,678
would look like Because sometimes it gets
810
00:35:38,678 --> 00:35:40,438
lost a we read the scriptures because it
811
00:35:40,438 --> 00:35:41,674
feels like well I know the way Scott
812
00:35:41,674 --> 00:35:43,610
McKnight described it when I interviewed
813
00:35:43,610 --> 00:35:46,634
him last year about his new translation
814
00:35:46,634 --> 00:35:48,374
He's like I didn't want people to read the
815
00:35:48,374 --> 00:35:50,762
Bible and think they're reading about the
816
00:35:50,762 --> 00:35:53,814
neighbor like it is ancient It is
817
00:35:53,814 --> 00:35:55,854
different But these are writings that can
818
00:35:55,854 --> 00:35:58,574
apply to our lives today.We can take the
819
00:35:58,574 --> 00:36:00,286
lessons of them for now because they're
820
00:36:00,286 --> 00:36:03,438
timeless truths We always are going to
821
00:36:03,438 --> 00:36:04,506
have enemies We're always going to
822
00:36:04,506 --> 00:36:06,706
struggle to love them Sermon on the Mount
823
00:36:06,706 --> 00:36:08,578
is year timeless hard thing to follow but
824
00:36:08,578 --> 00:36:09,778
so beautiful and it really does relate to
825
00:36:09,778 --> 00:36:13,218
today So thank you for writing this book
826
00:36:13,218 --> 00:36:15,780
bringing your uniqueness into it and
827
00:36:15,780 --> 00:36:19,070
helping us understand a little bit deeper
828
00:36:19,070 --> 00:36:20,566
some of the things that have gotten
829
00:36:20,566 --> 00:36:22,866
confusing over the last few years.How can
830
00:36:22,866 --> 00:36:25,382
people find you and more of your writing
831
00:36:25,382 --> 00:36:27,542
and continue to look For your next book
832
00:36:27,542 --> 00:36:29,398
Yeah I highly recommend my podcast Slow
833
00:36:29,398 --> 00:36:32,698
Theology which I co host with Dr AJ
834
00:36:32,698 --> 00:36:33,866
Swaboda.We actually talk really lot about
835
00:36:33,866 --> 00:36:34,934
deconstruction what a lot of christians
836
00:36:34,934 --> 00:36:37,642
are going through with just experiencing
837
00:36:37,642 --> 00:36:40,294
doubt and wanting to find faith in a messy
838
00:36:40,294 --> 00:36:41,846
and complex world and with the range of
839
00:36:41,846 --> 00:36:43,886
human experience and emotions that we have
840
00:36:43,886 --> 00:36:45,690
towards the world and towards God So check
841
00:36:45,690 --> 00:36:48,320
out slow theology and then I'm on social
842
00:36:48,320 --> 00:36:52,282
media less and less I have podcast, busy
843
00:36:52,282 --> 00:36:54,462
life with my family but strange religion
844
00:36:54,462 --> 00:36:56,850
is my latest offering and otherwise you
845
00:36:56,850 --> 00:36:59,826
can find other stuff I write on Amazon or
846
00:36:59,826 --> 00:37:03,922
my faculty webpage Love it Thank you so
847
00:37:03,922 --> 00:37:06,754
much for in with us today.Nijay I'm going
848
00:37:06,754 --> 00:37:08,546
to have you hang around with our
849
00:37:08,546 --> 00:37:10,566
difference makers in our Patreon community
850
00:37:10,566 --> 00:37:13,218
and ask you another question there to go a
851
00:37:13,218 --> 00:37:15,446
little bit deeper But for just this
852
00:37:15,446 --> 00:37:16,466
conversation I appreciate so much this
853
00:37:16,466 --> 00:37:18,200
talking about these really fascinating
854
00:37:18,200 --> 00:37:22,538
things in your book and how it relates to
855
00:37:22,538 --> 00:37:23,866
our lives today and hopefully help us
856
00:37:23,866 --> 00:37:25,690
navigate Amazon really strange environment
857
00:37:25,690 --> 00:37:28,074
going forward Thanks Lori Always a
858
00:37:28,074 --> 00:37:30,778
pleasure to talk to you I really loved
859
00:37:30,778 --> 00:37:31,786
that conversation.I just love on this
860
00:37:31,786 --> 00:37:33,966
podcast how I get to meet people that are
861
00:37:33,966 --> 00:37:35,166
so unique have all these unique
862
00:37:35,166 --> 00:37:36,430
backgrounds jobs that they do perspectives
863
00:37:36,430 --> 00:37:40,062
in the world and Nijay's just he's one of
864
00:37:40,062 --> 00:37:43,326
them right He's doing it things such a way
865
00:37:43,326 --> 00:37:46,674
that he's it these books So you get to see
866
00:37:46,674 --> 00:37:50,994
a lot of how he thinks because of the
867
00:37:50,994 --> 00:37:53,220
nature of writing We get to hear his
868
00:37:53,220 --> 00:37:57,410
thoughts as he writes them down but also
869
00:37:57,410 --> 00:37:59,078
just hearing it express some of those
870
00:37:59,078 --> 00:38:02,262
things that I read in the book and talking
871
00:38:02,262 --> 00:38:05,234
about those together today and going a
872
00:38:05,234 --> 00:38:07,046
little deeper on some of those things it
873
00:38:07,046 --> 00:38:08,838
was just a really interesting conversation
874
00:38:08,838 --> 00:38:10,306
for me And I don't know what you're coming
875
00:38:10,306 --> 00:38:11,206
away with this conversation for yourself
876
00:38:11,206 --> 00:38:13,398
wherever you live in he world and are
877
00:38:13,398 --> 00:38:14,646
listening to this but hopefully it helps
878
00:38:14,646 --> 00:38:16,198
you look back on history with fresh
879
00:38:16,198 --> 00:38:17,794
eyes.Some of the things hearing history
880
00:38:17,794 --> 00:38:18,934
we've been taught or maybe scriptures that
881
00:38:18,934 --> 00:38:20,462
we read around the world we've been taught
882
00:38:20,462 --> 00:38:22,446
these certain narratives about them But to
883
00:38:22,446 --> 00:38:25,118
look at them in a fresh way and a how
884
00:38:25,118 --> 00:38:27,358
people lived back then and what we can
885
00:38:27,358 --> 00:38:30,254
learn from history or our own scriptures
886
00:38:30,254 --> 00:38:31,694
can inform how we live today Decisions
887
00:38:31,694 --> 00:38:33,726
people make that we don't want to keep
888
00:38:33,726 --> 00:38:35,934
making the same bad decisions over and
889
00:38:35,934 --> 00:38:38,290
over again We want to learn from history
890
00:38:38,290 --> 00:38:40,146
not repeat it but also understanding that
891
00:38:40,146 --> 00:38:41,646
that lot of the social change and justice
892
00:38:41,646 --> 00:38:43,906
warriors we have today about lot of the
893
00:38:43,906 --> 00:38:46,754
values and ideals we a came from some of
894
00:38:46,754 --> 00:38:48,226
these early christians who were going
895
00:38:48,226 --> 00:38:50,006
against empire who was saying things need
896
00:38:50,006 --> 00:38:52,006
to be different and they were risking
897
00:38:52,006 --> 00:38:54,358
their very lives for this cause And like
898
00:38:54,358 --> 00:38:56,626
you said they couldn't have imagined 2000
899
00:38:56,626 --> 00:38:57,786
years later that christendom would be what
900
00:38:57,786 --> 00:39:01,062
it is right And I think so many people
901
00:39:01,062 --> 00:39:03,114
understanding whatever a movements around
902
00:39:03,114 --> 00:39:07,386
the world whether it's religious based
903
00:39:07,386 --> 00:39:09,606
faith based or not sometimes could never
904
00:39:09,606 --> 00:39:12,218
imagine He quoted Dr King quite a bit
905
00:39:12,218 --> 00:39:14,794
right Would he imagine a world where all
906
00:39:14,794 --> 00:39:16,094
these years later there's a day named
907
00:39:16,094 --> 00:39:18,046
after him He's quoted nonstop and
908
00:39:18,046 --> 00:39:20,686
sometimes quoted by people who would
909
00:39:20,686 --> 00:39:22,586
probably not like him very much.And the
910
00:39:22,586 --> 00:39:25,186
same could probably be said about Jesus
911
00:39:25,186 --> 00:39:27,826
right People quoting him But if they met
912
00:39:27,826 --> 00:39:30,274
Jesus face to face and some of the radical
913
00:39:30,274 --> 00:39:32,514
things whether was saying you kind of
914
00:39:32,514 --> 00:39:35,970
wonder if they would even honestly want to
915
00:39:35,970 --> 00:39:37,570
continue following sounds If you
916
00:39:37,570 --> 00:39:40,166
understand the rich young ruler story it
917
00:39:40,166 --> 00:39:42,294
sounds like Jesus had some a things to say
918
00:39:42,294 --> 00:39:44,566
Not rude necessarily but just things that
919
00:39:44,566 --> 00:39:46,294
were hard to swallow and meant a life
920
00:39:46,294 --> 00:39:48,406
change that is really uncomfortable and
921
00:39:48,406 --> 00:39:50,866
means giving up things that are really
922
00:39:50,866 --> 00:39:52,266
precious to so.And it means caring about
923
00:39:52,266 --> 00:39:53,786
others in face way that we don't just
924
00:39:53,786 --> 00:39:55,354
think about ourselves and building our own
925
00:39:55,354 --> 00:39:58,714
empires but it's really the opposite of
926
00:39:58,714 --> 00:40:02,006
that I loved how his book talked about
927
00:40:02,006 --> 00:40:04,766
that in a really fresh way in a very
928
00:40:04,766 --> 00:40:07,934
unusual way and it was very compelling and
929
00:40:07,934 --> 00:40:10,526
an exciting book to read So I do hope you
930
00:40:10,526 --> 00:40:13,374
get your hands on it Check it out It's
931
00:40:13,374 --> 00:40:15,214
called strange religion how early
932
00:40:15,214 --> 00:40:18,258
christians contrasted with roman religion
933
00:40:18,258 --> 00:40:19,746
and culture.It's available from Brazos
934
00:40:19,746 --> 00:40:21,666
press So yeah go buy it read it and post
935
00:40:21,666 --> 00:40:23,954
it on social media so other people will
936
00:40:23,954 --> 00:40:26,434
know about it And that's one way you can
937
00:40:26,434 --> 00:40:27,314
make about difference right Helping
938
00:40:27,314 --> 00:40:29,838
amplify the voice of people like Nijay and
939
00:40:29,838 --> 00:40:31,970
the books that they write that really
940
00:40:31,970 --> 00:40:33,526
impact us So we do go a little deeper with
941
00:40:33,526 --> 00:40:34,706
him hands a conversation in our difference
942
00:40:34,706 --> 00:40:37,154
maker community of course.And if you're
943
00:40:37,154 --> 00:40:39,586
not there yet you're really missing out
944
00:40:39,586 --> 00:40:43,194
And I don't want you to miss out So please
945
00:40:43,194 --> 00:40:44,842
go there today at WW dot patreon
946
00:40:44,842 --> 00:40:45,994
comaworldofdifference so you can join us
947
00:40:45,994 --> 00:40:47,386
in all these different exclusive
948
00:40:47,386 --> 00:40:48,442
conversations I think there's over 75
949
00:40:48,442 --> 00:40:50,154
posts on the difference maker community
950
00:40:50,154 --> 00:40:51,898
now And when you join you get access to
951
00:40:51,898 --> 00:40:54,266
different exclusive content that you can
952
00:40:54,266 --> 00:40:55,646
watch and videos.It's not just audio I do
953
00:40:55,646 --> 00:40:58,782
video uploads with most of our guests on
954
00:40:58,782 --> 00:41:00,622
there and you can see us talking about
955
00:41:00,622 --> 00:41:01,918
these things in a little deeper exclusive
956
00:41:01,918 --> 00:41:03,934
episode for you Just the difference makers
957
00:41:03,934 --> 00:41:09,138
It's today way to support this podcast and
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00:41:09,138 --> 00:41:12,062
it's also a way for us to go deeper
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00:41:12,062 --> 00:41:15,314
together and you can interact on comments
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00:41:15,314 --> 00:41:17,094
there Message me Dm me.I've had several of
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00:41:17,094 --> 00:41:21,366
you do that and it always means a lot to
962
00:41:21,366 --> 00:41:25,042
me I really enjoy making a difference with
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00:41:25,042 --> 00:41:27,126
you in that community so please join us
964
00:41:27,126 --> 00:41:29,334
there Don't want you to miss out And we do
965
00:41:29,334 --> 00:41:33,094
take a little bit deeper dive with him
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00:41:33,094 --> 00:41:35,046
Nijay Gupta in that conversation It's
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00:41:35,046 --> 00:41:36,858
makers. really good one along with so many
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00:41:36,858 --> 00:41:37,946
others but yeah a special one with Nijay
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00:41:37,946 --> 00:41:40,794
today.So thank you so much for listening
970
00:41:40,794 --> 00:41:43,526
as always thank you For those of you who
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00:41:43,526 --> 00:41:44,426
reached out to me recently through
972
00:41:44,426 --> 00:41:46,086
different forms Some of you have DM'd me
973
00:41:46,086 --> 00:41:47,326
on LinkedIn or different social media
974
00:41:47,326 --> 00:41:49,418
platforms that I'm on and just let me know
975
00:41:49,418 --> 00:41:50,766
how this podcast resonates with you And
976
00:41:50,766 --> 00:41:53,626
some of you I have had a chance to meet up
977
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with in person and that's a just so much
978
00:41:56,366 --> 00:41:58,386
fun for me I really like to get to know
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00:41:58,386 --> 00:42:01,454
each of you if I have opportunities to do
980
00:42:01,454 --> 00:42:02,946
that because this podcast is really
981
00:42:02,946 --> 00:42:03,858
interactive for me.It's as much you
982
00:42:03,858 --> 00:42:06,918
listening to me interview people that I
983
00:42:06,918 --> 00:42:11,670
bring on as it is me wanting to hear from
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00:42:11,670 --> 00:42:14,886
you and how it's making and difference for
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00:42:14,886 --> 00:42:17,478
you So I really enjoy hearing how this
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00:42:17,478 --> 00:42:18,758
podcast is making a difference in your
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00:42:18,758 --> 00:42:22,214
life and the work that you do and the way
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00:42:22,214 --> 00:42:23,418
that you're thinking because yeah I just
989
00:42:23,418 --> 00:42:24,858
want to share what's working for me and
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00:42:24,858 --> 00:42:26,746
the books I'm reading and the people I'm
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00:42:26,746 --> 00:42:30,758
getting to know and I'd love for you to
992
00:42:30,758 --> 00:42:34,154
kind of do that for me too It's sort of a
993
00:42:34,154 --> 00:42:36,206
two way street here so feel free to reach
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00:42:36,206 --> 00:42:37,438
out I'm going to be speaking a podcast
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00:42:37,438 --> 00:42:39,086
movement evolutions at the end of March
996
00:42:39,086 --> 00:42:41,102
doing one of the breakout sessions that
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00:42:41,102 --> 00:42:42,654
I'm leading by myself about just having a
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00:42:42,654 --> 00:42:44,720
global podcast I'm really excited to speak
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00:42:44,720 --> 00:42:47,034
there and I excited too because Amy
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Poehler is going to be the keynote speaker
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which is so fun.The last time I spoke at
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00:42:50,638 --> 00:42:51,906
podcast movement evolutions it was will
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00:42:51,906 --> 00:42:53,586
Ferrell that I got to hear and sat on the
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00:42:53,586 --> 00:42:54,994
front row right in front of him He's
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00:42:54,994 --> 00:42:57,150
hilarious And I'm know Amy Poehler is
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00:42:57,150 --> 00:43:00,310
going to be too so really excited about
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00:43:00,310 --> 00:43:03,218
that But if you're going to be that
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00:43:03,218 --> 00:43:05,366
podcast movement evolutions or you live
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00:43:05,366 --> 00:43:07,026
having LA there's already a couple
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00:43:07,026 --> 00:43:09,686
listeners that have reached out to me
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00:43:09,686 --> 00:43:11,506
through social media and I did a call with
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00:43:11,506 --> 00:43:13,298
one of them and we're going to meet up for
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00:43:13,298 --> 00:43:16,690
coffee there So I always like to meet
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00:43:16,690 --> 00:43:18,358
listeners of the podcast if there's
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00:43:18,358 --> 00:43:19,526
opportunities to do that.But yeah if
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00:43:19,526 --> 00:43:21,406
you're in my breakout session at the end
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00:43:21,406 --> 00:43:23,086
of March there in LA would love for you to
1018
00:43:23,086 --> 00:43:24,286
come up and say hi If you're listen to
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00:43:24,286 --> 00:43:27,146
this podcast it would mean a lot to me I
1020
00:43:27,146 --> 00:43:28,926
like getting to know each of you when I
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00:43:28,926 --> 00:43:30,766
get a so But I know that many of you are
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00:43:30,766 --> 00:43:32,078
so busy these days doing great work around
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00:43:32,078 --> 00:43:34,174
the world So thank you for taking the time
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00:43:34,174 --> 00:43:36,042
to listeners to this conversation to hear
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00:43:36,042 --> 00:43:37,098
from Nijay and his perspective.And I just
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00:43:37,098 --> 00:43:39,006
want to say as always take care of
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00:43:39,006 --> 00:43:40,798
yourself because you matter And as always
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00:43:40,798 --> 00:43:41,774
keep making a difference wherever you are
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