Dr. Nijay Gupta on Rethinking Religion: The Roman Empire's Influence on Early Christians

1
00:00:00,000 --> 00:00:04,458
Welcome to the a World of Difference

2
00:00:04,458 --> 00:00:06,766
podcast. I'm Lori Adams Brown and this is

3
00:00:06,766 --> 00:00:08,606
a podcast for those who are different and

4
00:00:08,606 --> 00:00:12,426
want to make a difference. This podcast is

5
00:00:12,426 --> 00:00:15,086
sponsored by Betterhelp. If you are a

6
00:00:15,086 --> 00:00:18,126
person who really wants to understand what

7
00:00:18,126 --> 00:00:20,046
your strengths are, maybe you're not going

8
00:00:20,046 --> 00:00:21,754
through anything huge in your life.

9
00:00:21,754 --> 00:00:24,266
Therapy is not just for those who are in

10
00:00:24,266 --> 00:00:26,454
crisis, although it's definitely for that.

11
00:00:26,454 --> 00:00:29,000
therapy is also also a where you're just

12
00:00:29,000 --> 00:00:31,574
stepping into your own skin figuring out

13
00:00:31,574 --> 00:00:33,846
who you are what it is you're offering to

14
00:00:33,846 --> 00:00:36,374
the world around us and how you're making

15
00:00:36,374 --> 00:00:38,566
the world a better place Betterhelp is

16
00:00:38,566 --> 00:00:40,746
here to help you with that and I have

17
00:00:40,746 --> 00:00:42,858
really benefited by deep work

18
00:00:42,858 --> 00:00:44,746
understanding myself a little bit better

19
00:00:44,746 --> 00:00:47,722
And I know many people have benefited from

20
00:00:47,722 --> 00:00:50,026
this resource and that's why I'm proud to

21
00:00:50,026 --> 00:00:51,750
say they are are sponsor of this podcast

22
00:00:51,750 --> 00:00:53,834
So if you are are person who could benefit

23
00:00:53,834 --> 00:00:56,974
from talking with a a about anything going

24
00:00:56,974 --> 00:00:59,758
on in your life I encourage you to to by

25
00:00:59,758 --> 00:01:02,298
at betterhelp And the link I'm offering

26
00:01:02,298 --> 00:01:05,074
you today will give you 10 off your first

27
00:01:05,074 --> 00:01:06,878
month.And so hopefully that'll make

28
00:01:06,878 --> 00:01:08,446
that'll difference in your purse and

29
00:01:08,446 --> 00:01:11,122
pocket and wallet and bank account So go

30
00:01:11,122 --> 00:01:16,242
to www.betterhelp.com to to get 10 off

31
00:01:16,242 --> 00:01:18,214
your first month of therapy That is

32
00:01:18,214 --> 00:01:22,726
www.betterhelp.com difference to get 10

33
00:01:22,726 --> 00:01:25,206
off your first month Today today on the

34
00:01:25,206 --> 00:01:27,314
show we have a return guest It's Dr.Nijay

35
00:01:27,314 --> 00:01:30,806
Gupta Nijay is Gupta. professor of New

36
00:01:30,806 --> 00:01:32,954
Testament at Northern Seminary He lives up

37
00:01:32,954 --> 00:01:35,706
in Portland Oregon and he's a co host of

38
00:01:35,706 --> 00:01:38,230
the show the Slow Theology podcast He's

39
00:01:38,230 --> 00:01:42,086
also the founder of the Cook Sola blog and

40
00:01:42,086 --> 00:01:43,994
he's written numerous books including what

41
00:01:43,994 --> 00:01:46,286
he was on he show last time to talk about

42
00:01:46,286 --> 00:01:49,066
tell her story Also he's written a

43
00:01:49,066 --> 00:01:50,526
beginner's guide to New Testament studies

44
00:01:50,526 --> 00:01:52,926
15 New Testament words of life and

45
00:01:52,926 --> 00:01:54,186
commentaries on Galatians Philippians

46
00:01:54,186 --> 00:01:56,834
Colossians and first and second

47
00:01:56,834 --> 00:01:59,326
Thessalonians.He is a co editor with Dr co

48
00:01:59,326 --> 00:02:01,746
McKnight of the State of the New Testament

49
00:02:01,746 --> 00:02:03,682
Studies and he's Testament senior

50
00:02:03,682 --> 00:02:05,586
translator for the New Living translation

51
00:02:05,586 --> 00:02:07,618
of the Bible that some of you may have

52
00:02:07,618 --> 00:02:10,446
read or currently read And he is on the

53
00:02:10,446 --> 00:02:11,894
show today to talk about his latest new

54
00:02:11,894 --> 00:02:14,018
book And I was so thrilled to get another

55
00:02:14,018 --> 00:02:15,798
advanced copy of another one of his books

56
00:02:15,798 --> 00:02:18,138
This one his called strange religion how

57
00:02:18,138 --> 00:02:20,454
early christians contrasted with roman

58
00:02:20,454 --> 00:02:23,290
religion and culture.And I really love

59
00:02:23,290 --> 00:02:28,970
this Just he brought in so much of like

60
00:02:28,970 --> 00:02:30,918
just as you're reading it in the very

61
00:02:30,918 --> 00:02:33,034
beginning so much of just the whole keep

62
00:02:33,034 --> 00:02:35,354
Portland weird thing And if you don't know

63
00:02:35,354 --> 00:02:36,702
about that just google it and go visit

64
00:02:36,702 --> 00:02:38,206
Portland because then you'll kind of

65
00:02:38,206 --> 00:02:39,886
understand it But he talks about how the

66
00:02:39,886 --> 00:02:41,374
first christians were kind of weird and

67
00:02:41,374 --> 00:02:44,446
just how weird they were is often lost on

68
00:02:44,446 --> 00:02:47,338
today's believers And I on mean weird in a

69
00:02:47,338 --> 00:02:50,462
way to where christians don't know how to

70
00:02:50,462 --> 00:02:52,178
make hard decisions in the world so they

71
00:02:52,178 --> 00:02:53,314
just have to be weird.I don't mean like

72
00:02:53,314 --> 00:02:54,578
that It's just when you'll understand

73
00:02:54,578 --> 00:02:57,038
please get a copy of his book and it's

74
00:02:57,038 --> 00:02:59,794
available for preorder as well But as you

75
00:02:59,794 --> 00:03:02,294
read this book you'll understand a little

76
00:03:02,294 --> 00:03:03,846
more about what he a Just going against

77
00:03:03,846 --> 00:03:06,018
empire going against things going their

78
00:03:06,018 --> 00:03:09,206
day that took a lot of courage And so this

79
00:03:09,206 --> 00:03:11,286
book is so well written.It actually has

80
00:03:11,286 --> 00:03:12,394
some really fun pictures because he's

81
00:03:12,394 --> 00:03:14,186
trying to make it a more immersive

82
00:03:14,186 --> 00:03:15,126
experience He's talking about gods and

83
00:03:15,126 --> 00:03:18,314
different people that you may have known

84
00:03:18,314 --> 00:03:20,538
about when you read about greek gods and

85
00:03:20,538 --> 00:03:22,554
your history books growing up But he

86
00:03:22,554 --> 00:03:24,378
really kind of makes it come alive as to

87
00:03:24,378 --> 00:03:26,026
what the scene was like for some of the

88
00:03:26,026 --> 00:03:27,134
early christians but also brings it into

89
00:03:27,134 --> 00:03:29,754
modern day And also story about him

90
00:03:29,754 --> 00:03:32,138
shopping at Costco So really excited to

91
00:03:32,138 --> 00:03:36,146
have him back on the show to to talk about

92
00:03:36,146 --> 00:03:37,106
his latest book Strange Religion.So

93
00:03:37,106 --> 00:03:39,970
welcome back for the second time Dr Nijay

94
00:03:39,970 --> 00:03:43,570
Gupta.Hi Nijay And a warm welcome to you

95
00:03:43,570 --> 00:03:52,102
Gupta. in Portland to the show today I

96
00:03:52,102 --> 00:03:54,502
have some wild winter weather here in

97
00:03:54,502 --> 00:03:56,914
California but I just want to say are you

98
00:03:56,914 --> 00:03:58,918
keeping Portland weird for us Are you

99
00:03:58,918 --> 00:04:00,406
doing you job up there I'm trying.I'm

100
00:04:00,406 --> 00:04:03,126
trying It's hard to keep up there? But

101
00:04:03,126 --> 00:04:06,906
we've been here almost ten years so I'm

102
00:04:06,906 --> 00:04:09,318
pretty settled into the weird I love it I

103
00:04:09,318 --> 00:04:12,202
love it so much.Every time I go to

104
00:04:12,202 --> 00:04:13,578
Portland it's just it signs everywhere say

105
00:04:13,578 --> 00:04:14,998
keep Portland weird And I just love the

106
00:04:14,998 --> 00:04:17,566
quirkiness of it all And I love that you

107
00:04:17,566 --> 00:04:19,886
bring that into your book I was reading

108
00:04:19,886 --> 00:04:21,326
your book and yes this is what we're

109
00:04:21,326 --> 00:04:22,942
talking about today everyone Strange

110
00:04:22,942 --> 00:04:24,286
religion.I was reading it in my coffee

111
00:04:24,286 --> 00:04:27,394
shop that I walked to with my husband on

112
00:04:27,394 --> 00:04:29,554
the weekends And we're really spoiled here

113
00:04:29,554 --> 00:04:32,158
that we can walk to really good coffee

114
00:04:32,158 --> 00:04:33,986
places Phil's coffee is one of our

115
00:04:33,986 --> 00:04:36,366
favorites but I was sitting in there

116
00:04:36,366 --> 00:04:38,238
reading it and the woman next to me said

117
00:04:38,238 --> 00:04:39,346
that book looks really good So she liked

118
00:04:39,346 --> 00:04:40,534
your cover Apparently that was selling

119
00:04:40,534 --> 00:04:43,046
her.And I said well I was reading in the

120
00:04:43,046 --> 00:04:45,286
kind of beginning where you talk about

121
00:04:45,286 --> 00:04:46,626
keep Portland weird and how that ties in

122
00:04:46,626 --> 00:04:48,438
with strange religion So I was kind of

123
00:04:48,438 --> 00:04:50,438
telling her about it She's like I have

124
00:04:50,438 --> 00:04:51,790
family in Portland So you may have sold a

125
00:04:51,790 --> 00:04:54,346
few books out of Los Gado's coffee place

126
00:04:54,346 --> 00:04:55,706
from may woman who a very impressed by

127
00:04:55,706 --> 00:04:58,026
your So kind coffee know just out the

128
00:04:58,026 --> 00:05:01,958
gate.Tell us how you brought that together

129
00:05:01,958 --> 00:05:03,486
Like Portland's weirdness the strange

130
00:05:03,486 --> 00:05:07,022
religion concept kind of dig us in there a

131
00:05:07,022 --> 00:05:10,366
little bit Yeah As I said I've been living

132
00:05:10,366 --> 00:05:13,038
in Portland for a while and one thing it's

133
00:05:13,038 --> 00:05:14,386
known for is just individuality in who you

134
00:05:14,386 --> 00:05:17,682
a and not blending into kind of the wider

135
00:05:17,682 --> 00:05:22,110
culture as some kind of robot or zombie

136
00:05:22,110 --> 00:05:25,394
like conformity I say in the book is a

137
00:05:25,394 --> 00:05:28,806
four letter word in you know during the

138
00:05:28,806 --> 00:05:31,080
pandemic a lot of the book ideas came out

139
00:05:31,080 --> 00:05:33,718
of the pandemic and just what's been going

140
00:05:33,718 --> 00:05:35,446
on the last four or five years.United

141
00:05:35,446 --> 00:05:38,906
States with political division with the

142
00:05:38,906 --> 00:05:40,074
rhetoric on social media of judgmentalism

143
00:05:40,074 --> 00:05:44,266
hatred and just I feel like the american

144
00:05:44,266 --> 00:05:48,250
christian church is going through kind of

145
00:05:48,250 --> 00:05:50,526
hatred, period of reckoning with church

146
00:05:50,526 --> 00:05:52,942
scandals and post pandemic wondering

147
00:05:52,942 --> 00:05:56,394
should we go back to church Why should we

148
00:05:56,394 --> 00:06:03,266
go back to church And my neighbors here in

149
00:06:03,266 --> 00:06:04,706
Portland there's a lot of negativity

150
00:06:04,706 --> 00:06:07,086
towards the Church It's a highly

151
00:06:07,086 --> 00:06:09,426
unchurched area The general sentiment is

152
00:06:09,426 --> 00:06:13,246
from reading the news and the politics of

153
00:06:13,246 --> 00:06:18,866
the day churches just reflect the worst of

154
00:06:18,866 --> 00:06:20,806
society.Racism sexism greed narcissism

155
00:06:20,806 --> 00:06:26,098
extreme individualism all of that I don't

156
00:06:26,098 --> 00:06:32,390
think that's true for all churches But I

157
00:06:32,390 --> 00:06:35,786
do think we're dealing with that. major

158
00:06:35,786 --> 00:06:37,142
reputational issue with the american all

159
00:06:37,142 --> 00:06:39,226
evangelical church in terms of who are we

160
00:06:39,226 --> 00:06:44,350
a makes us tick What's driving us Is it

161
00:06:44,350 --> 00:06:48,766
about goodness or is it about power Is it

162
00:06:48,766 --> 00:06:52,574
about Jesus Or is it about you know when

163
00:06:52,574 --> 00:06:55,938
people say to me who aren't a part of a

164
00:06:55,938 --> 00:07:00,306
church or who are maybe disenchanted with

165
00:07:00,306 --> 00:07:02,498
say church when they say to me

166
00:07:02,498 --> 00:07:03,860
christianity is ugly or christianity is

167
00:07:03,860 --> 00:07:06,726
hurting people what I really want to tell

168
00:07:06,726 --> 00:07:11,394
them is that's not Jesus That's not the

169
00:07:11,394 --> 00:07:13,654
Jesus I know That's not the Christianity

170
00:07:13,654 --> 00:07:18,354
that it was meant to be.So the kind of

171
00:07:18,354 --> 00:07:21,382
hook for my book is my editor know hey I

172
00:07:21,382 --> 00:07:23,866
like your book but you need a better hook

173
00:07:23,866 --> 00:07:28,874
So I put this in the book at the very end

174
00:07:28,874 --> 00:07:30,586
of writing it I went to Costco a handful

175
00:07:30,586 --> 00:07:32,970
of years ago which I love And part of my

176
00:07:32,970 --> 00:07:35,806
Portland hippiness is I like coconut water

177
00:07:35,806 --> 00:07:39,198
And so I was looking for a good coconut

178
00:07:39,198 --> 00:07:41,066
water Portland Costco was selling this

179
00:07:41,066 --> 00:07:42,478
brand of coconut water that's pink.And I'd

180
00:07:42,478 --> 00:07:45,438
always thought of coconut water, as clear

181
00:07:45,438 --> 00:07:48,366
In fact I have a group of students and I

182
00:07:48,366 --> 00:07:50,546
put always picture of a clear bottle just

183
00:07:50,546 --> 00:07:52,706
recently into the group So I was kind of

184
00:07:52,706 --> 00:07:54,594
confused Why is this coconut a pink And

185
00:07:54,594 --> 00:07:58,430
there's actually a sign on the label that

186
00:07:58,430 --> 00:08:00,642
says why is this pink So I read the sign

187
00:08:00,642 --> 00:08:04,086
and it a when we open up that coconut and

188
00:08:04,086 --> 00:08:06,102
the liquid inside interacts with oxygen it

189
00:08:06,102 --> 00:08:10,346
naturally turns the sugars pink So real

190
00:08:10,346 --> 00:08:16,038
coconut a is meant to be pink Then I'm

191
00:08:16,038 --> 00:08:19,594
wondering why have I always seen clear

192
00:08:19,594 --> 00:08:21,574
coconut water And the answer is when you

193
00:08:21,574 --> 00:08:24,138
buy the gas station or when you buy it at

194
00:08:24,138 --> 00:08:25,520
Kroger's or whatever the chemically

195
00:08:25,520 --> 00:08:27,758
altering it to give you gas sense of

196
00:08:27,758 --> 00:08:31,066
pristine to give you at sense of clear

197
00:08:31,066 --> 00:08:33,950
that isn't true to what it actually should

198
00:08:33,950 --> 00:08:35,954
look like And I thought what a great

199
00:08:35,954 --> 00:08:37,138
analogy for that synthesized Christianity

200
00:08:37,138 --> 00:08:39,026
which we often see in celebrity forms of

201
00:08:39,026 --> 00:08:42,926
Christianity that we often see in some a

202
00:08:42,926 --> 00:08:48,600
forms attractional forms.So my book really

203
00:08:48,600 --> 00:08:53,142
is if coconut water Christianity, pink I

204
00:08:53,142 --> 00:08:59,094
want the in stuff And if Christianity is

205
00:08:59,094 --> 00:09:03,110
weird I want the weird stuff Like I want

206
00:09:03,110 --> 00:09:05,862
to know what it's actually supposed to be

207
00:09:05,862 --> 00:09:08,218
like So my book is an attempt Lori to get

208
00:09:08,218 --> 00:09:09,754
people to go back to the origins of

209
00:09:09,754 --> 00:09:11,626
Christianity to see what it was always

210
00:09:11,626 --> 00:09:14,382
meant to be as a revolution a social

211
00:09:14,382 --> 00:09:16,670
political economic religious spiritual

212
00:09:16,670 --> 00:09:19,546
moral revolution to change the world to

213
00:09:19,546 --> 00:09:23,454
the way that Jesus envisioned the world to

214
00:09:23,454 --> 00:09:30,018
be which is very different than Trump's

215
00:09:30,018 --> 00:09:31,154
America very different than Biden's

216
00:09:31,154 --> 00:09:33,394
America and very different than Caesar's

217
00:09:33,394 --> 00:09:38,370
Rome And I want to different enchant

218
00:09:38,370 --> 00:09:40,866
people with Christianity by showing them

219
00:09:40,866 --> 00:09:45,126
the beautiful side of what the early

220
00:09:45,126 --> 00:09:47,722
christians started in the first century.I

221
00:09:47,722 --> 00:09:53,100
love that reenchant And when I read your

222
00:09:53,100 --> 00:09:57,418
coconut water section I was like what in

223
00:09:57,418 --> 00:10:03,246
blown right Because I also shop at Costco

224
00:10:03,246 --> 00:10:05,614
but know grew up in Venezuela where we had

225
00:10:05,614 --> 00:10:08,638
coconuts on the beach and loved one of our

226
00:10:08,638 --> 00:10:12,286
favorite things to do when we lived in

227
00:10:12,286 --> 00:10:14,842
Sumatra and Indonesia was go to the beach

228
00:10:14,842 --> 00:10:16,126
every usually on the weekend and order do

229
00:10:16,126 --> 00:10:17,886
call it kalapamuda which is young

230
00:10:17,886 --> 00:10:20,242
coconut.The achinese way is much faster So

231
00:10:20,242 --> 00:10:23,298
any achinese people listening and you just

232
00:10:23,298 --> 00:10:26,386
say like it's so much faster But they just

233
00:10:26,386 --> 00:10:28,658
chop off the top of the coconut They put

234
00:10:28,658 --> 00:10:31,862
and straw in there and the coconut part is

235
00:10:31,862 --> 00:10:33,158
white they meat part inside that you can

236
00:10:33,158 --> 00:10:35,122
scoop out and eat So I guess I just always

237
00:10:35,122 --> 00:10:38,358
assumed it was white, too because I never

238
00:10:38,358 --> 00:10:40,326
really drank the water out of the actual

239
00:10:40,326 --> 00:10:41,814
coconut.Right Even I was in Rio in

240
00:10:41,814 --> 00:10:43,546
November I had one on the beach there

241
00:10:43,546 --> 00:10:45,914
Every coconut I've ever had I've always

242
00:10:45,914 --> 00:10:47,898
just assumed it's like clear and white But

243
00:10:47,898 --> 00:10:49,546
I guess if you take it out and this is

244
00:10:49,546 --> 00:10:50,758
where you're just blowing our minds

245
00:10:50,758 --> 00:10:52,106
because some people think of Christianity

246
00:10:52,106 --> 00:10:54,206
a certain way and they're not wrong to say

247
00:10:54,206 --> 00:10:55,166
there's narcissism there's abuse there's

248
00:10:55,166 --> 00:10:56,446
sexism there's racism because christendom

249
00:10:56,446 --> 00:10:58,138
has shown and is showing us that.But

250
00:10:58,138 --> 00:11:00,554
you're pointing us back to christians in

251
00:11:00,554 --> 00:11:03,342
there's early church You're pointing us

252
00:11:03,342 --> 00:11:07,330
back to Jesus and the things that he said

253
00:11:07,330 --> 00:11:09,454
that are very different than this

254
00:11:09,454 --> 00:11:11,166
christians nationalism we're seeing in the

255
00:11:11,166 --> 00:11:13,922
US And so I think that one of the parts of

256
00:11:13,922 --> 00:11:16,366
your book that I really enjoyed was where

257
00:11:16,366 --> 00:11:18,674
you talk about the scenes in the homes of

258
00:11:18,674 --> 00:11:19,446
like Athens and Pompeii households right

259
00:11:19,446 --> 00:11:20,694
So there's this paraphernalia of goods

260
00:11:20,694 --> 00:11:23,618
that people might encounter which a

261
00:11:23,618 --> 00:11:25,046
western home here maybe in Portland or

262
00:11:25,046 --> 00:11:26,866
even California might not really

263
00:11:26,866 --> 00:11:28,694
comprehend Living in Asia seeing hindu

264
00:11:28,694 --> 00:11:31,514
gods in people's homes or traveling in

265
00:11:31,514 --> 00:11:33,786
Thailand and in know it's common but it's

266
00:11:33,786 --> 00:11:36,614
for really lot of the westerners listening

267
00:11:36,614 --> 00:11:38,294
they don't understand.But you compare it

268
00:11:38,294 --> 00:11:41,258
to modern sports heroes tell us how that's

269
00:11:41,258 --> 00:11:42,726
different and similar to what they would

270
00:11:42,726 --> 00:11:44,506
have encountered Yeah well you have to

271
00:11:44,506 --> 00:11:46,974
understand the ancient world It's very

272
00:11:46,974 --> 00:11:48,878
different than a modern western mentality

273
00:11:48,878 --> 00:11:51,006
towards religion in a separation of church

274
00:11:51,006 --> 00:11:52,454
and state kind of place like America

275
00:11:52,454 --> 00:11:55,694
because we often treat today religion a

276
00:11:55,694 --> 00:11:59,086
optional and personal So it's optional in

277
00:11:59,086 --> 00:12:03,060
the sense that if I get to church I will

278
00:12:03,060 --> 00:12:09,942
If not I won't.And it's very like what's

279
00:12:09,942 --> 00:12:14,342
it doing for me It's a fulfillment

280
00:12:14,342 --> 00:12:16,034
oriented thing for many people not

281
00:12:16,034 --> 00:12:18,502
everybody but for many people it's a

282
00:12:18,502 --> 00:12:21,274
fulfillment oriented So you say I wasn't

283
00:12:21,274 --> 00:12:23,834
feeling the sermon I wasn't feeling the

284
00:12:23,834 --> 00:12:26,106
music It's very much like it's almost like

285
00:12:26,106 --> 00:12:28,966
food Like is it delicious Do I like it Do

286
00:12:28,966 --> 00:12:32,202
I not like it I won't go back again to

287
00:12:32,202 --> 00:12:35,486
that restaurant And then secondly it's

288
00:12:35,486 --> 00:12:36,846
very personal and privatized so you could

289
00:12:36,846 --> 00:12:37,966
be religious and not one ever know because

290
00:12:37,966 --> 00:12:41,054
you do it in the privacy of your home or

291
00:12:41,054 --> 00:12:43,786
the privacy of the church or synagogue or

292
00:12:43,786 --> 00:12:46,174
whatever that you go to if you're

293
00:12:46,174 --> 00:12:47,266
religious in America in the ancient world

294
00:12:47,266 --> 00:12:49,246
much like places like India today it's

295
00:12:49,246 --> 00:12:50,418
national it's cultural it's heritage

296
00:12:50,418 --> 00:12:52,370
oriented it's built to the fabric of life

297
00:12:52,370 --> 00:12:55,458
So just talking about the roman world

298
00:12:55,458 --> 00:13:02,070
roman religion.So Rome had kind of what

299
00:13:02,070 --> 00:13:06,726
we'd think of as a state religion This was

300
00:13:06,726 --> 00:13:09,494
the roman gods right So religion was

301
00:13:09,494 --> 00:13:13,274
public it was obligatory and it was all

302
00:13:13,274 --> 00:13:14,058
practical It's like you make sacrifices

303
00:13:14,058 --> 00:13:16,166
you go to these festivals you participate

304
00:13:16,166 --> 00:13:21,450
in these events and it was it everywhere

305
00:13:21,450 --> 00:13:23,642
You couldn't go anywhere.There weren't

306
00:13:23,642 --> 00:13:25,646
traces of the gods whether that's out to a

307
00:13:25,646 --> 00:13:28,126
restaurant places of business it's in your

308
00:13:28,126 --> 00:13:31,242
homes all over the place as art as

309
00:13:31,242 --> 00:13:32,946
religious paraphernalia rituals in your

310
00:13:32,946 --> 00:13:37,666
house you go to the to a or the local

311
00:13:37,666 --> 00:13:39,858
Ispian games or whatever it is and just

312
00:13:39,858 --> 00:13:43,506
like we have the pledge of allegiance or

313
00:13:43,506 --> 00:13:46,926
the national anthem at sports games those

314
00:13:46,926 --> 00:13:48,758
are vestiges in America of this or of

315
00:13:48,758 --> 00:13:51,398
thing Trevor Noah was talking about this

316
00:13:51,398 --> 00:13:54,626
He said america's the only country where

317
00:13:54,626 --> 00:13:58,134
you're going to sing the national anthem

318
00:13:58,134 --> 00:14:02,118
at America local sports game between two

319
00:14:02,118 --> 00:14:03,754
local teams He said in countries like

320
00:14:03,754 --> 00:14:06,620
Germany you're only going to do that if

321
00:14:06,620 --> 00:14:09,610
you're playing the country But this would

322
00:14:09,610 --> 00:14:13,082
be an example of the kind of thing that

323
00:14:13,082 --> 00:14:14,506
you would do in the roman world where

324
00:14:14,506 --> 00:14:17,166
you're going to pay tribute to the gods

325
00:14:17,166 --> 00:14:18,526
everywhere all of the time.And whether you

326
00:14:18,526 --> 00:14:20,522
feel in your heart or not do matter And

327
00:14:20,522 --> 00:14:22,398
that's one of the things I talk about in

328
00:14:22,398 --> 00:14:25,358
my book It's just you do know it's like

329
00:14:25,358 --> 00:14:26,398
having the picture of the president United

330
00:14:26,398 --> 00:14:27,138
States somewhere It's just everywhere And

331
00:14:27,138 --> 00:14:28,706
so part of the point of my book. is

332
00:14:28,706 --> 00:14:30,226
helping people understand the environment

333
00:14:30,226 --> 00:14:31,682
the early christians grew up in where you

334
00:14:31,682 --> 00:14:37,958
didn't have to tell someone to be

335
00:14:37,958 --> 00:14:38,774
religious.It was really a question of

336
00:14:38,774 --> 00:14:41,926
which gods are the most powerful which

337
00:14:41,926 --> 00:14:48,646
gods are the ones you need to follow and

338
00:14:48,646 --> 00:14:50,714
pay worship and obeyance to And not like

339
00:14:50,714 --> 00:14:54,282
today where it's sort of like if I feel

340
00:14:54,282 --> 00:14:57,066
like being religious I'll be religious or

341
00:14:57,066 --> 00:15:01,194
it's kind of a phase It was funny I used

342
00:15:01,194 --> 00:15:02,794
to teach at Seattle Pacific University and

343
00:15:02,794 --> 00:15:05,786
we did this religion survey to incoming

344
00:15:05,786 --> 00:15:07,038
students and there's certain boxes they

345
00:15:07,038 --> 00:15:08,478
could check a one would be like I a

346
00:15:08,478 --> 00:15:10,126
Christian Another would be I'm an atheist

347
00:15:10,126 --> 00:15:13,818
or agnostic And one would be I'm a non

348
00:15:13,818 --> 00:15:15,426
practicing Christian.And that was one of

349
00:15:15,426 --> 00:15:19,010
the most common boxes that was checked And

350
00:15:19,010 --> 00:15:21,426
it makes sense on like atheist or because

351
00:15:21,426 --> 00:15:23,374
people might perceive themselves that a

352
00:15:23,374 --> 00:15:26,498
but it doesn't make sense for actual

353
00:15:26,498 --> 00:15:29,130
religious people who would say you can't

354
00:15:29,130 --> 00:15:31,800
be a non practicing Christian you're the a

355
00:15:31,800 --> 00:15:34,518
form you're not Yeah I understand why that

356
00:15:34,518 --> 00:15:36,694
would be so commonly checked based on how

357
00:15:36,694 --> 00:15:38,038
things are and around the world I think

358
00:15:38,038 --> 00:15:40,118
I've encountered this quite a bit where

359
00:15:40,118 --> 00:15:48,134
it's like in I you are not allowed to be

360
00:15:48,134 --> 00:15:52,074
atheists because of some history back in

361
00:15:52,074 --> 00:15:53,578
the 60s when communism was kind of

362
00:15:53,578 --> 00:15:54,586
becoming more prominent in places like

363
00:15:54,586 --> 00:15:57,626
Vietnam or wherever And so Indonesia was

364
00:15:57,626 --> 00:15:58,926
rejecting that And they require their

365
00:15:58,926 --> 00:16:01,822
citizens history under this thing called

366
00:16:01,822 --> 00:16:04,546
panchasila where they have five religions

367
00:16:04,546 --> 00:16:07,666
and you have to check one of them.And your

368
00:16:07,666 --> 00:16:11,506
identity card shows you know you have some

369
00:16:11,506 --> 00:16:13,346
Muslims that don't really practice You

370
00:16:13,346 --> 00:16:15,854
have Christians Hindus Buddhists and some

371
00:16:15,854 --> 00:16:17,314
people who actually would otherwise

372
00:16:17,314 --> 00:16:19,282
identify as atheists But it's not an

373
00:16:19,282 --> 00:16:22,322
option because they equated that back in

374
00:16:22,322 --> 00:16:26,290
the 60s with communism and so kind of

375
00:16:26,290 --> 00:16:28,354
forced people to choose a religion in that

376
00:16:28,354 --> 00:16:29,974
situation So I think everywhere has their

377
00:16:29,974 --> 00:16:32,426
own nuance and I think what we're in with

378
00:16:32,426 --> 00:16:35,046
here in the United States Portland in

379
00:16:35,046 --> 00:16:36,794
particular here in California a well is

380
00:16:36,794 --> 00:16:38,906
people who have had some pretty bad

381
00:16:38,906 --> 00:16:40,246
experiences with the church Even think the

382
00:16:40,246 --> 00:16:42,294
90s when I was in seminary in northern

383
00:16:42,294 --> 00:16:44,654
here in the Bay Area we were encountering

384
00:16:44,654 --> 00:16:45,934
people who would move to California just

385
00:16:45,934 --> 00:16:49,726
to get away from the Bible belt because

386
00:16:49,726 --> 00:16:51,086
they'd had abusive experiences with their

387
00:16:51,086 --> 00:16:54,426
pastor their priest or you know it's a lot

388
00:16:54,426 --> 00:16:56,286
of trauma for people.So some people might

389
00:16:56,286 --> 00:16:57,374
have identified as Christian they might

390
00:16:57,374 --> 00:17:00,254
have been the ones to check that box But

391
00:17:00,254 --> 00:17:02,786
what you're trying to point out in the

392
00:17:02,786 --> 00:17:04,722
book is that religion then versus religion

393
00:17:04,722 --> 00:17:06,946
now You talk about there's this kind of

394
00:17:06,946 --> 00:17:08,630
consumer product versus the gods are in

395
00:17:08,630 --> 00:17:10,006
charge So how does that play out

396
00:17:10,006 --> 00:17:12,470
differently Well let's go back to the

397
00:17:12,470 --> 00:17:15,334
sports thing because I think that gives us

398
00:17:15,334 --> 00:17:18,486
a better understanding of the saturation

399
00:17:18,486 --> 00:17:20,566
of religion at the time.So here in

400
00:17:20,566 --> 00:17:22,938
Portland we don't have a football team We

401
00:17:22,938 --> 00:17:25,034
do have soccer but we also have basketball

402
00:17:25,034 --> 00:17:27,786
And everybody I would say 80 70 80 of

403
00:17:27,786 --> 00:17:29,434
people walking around the streets of

404
00:17:29,434 --> 00:17:31,594
Portland are wearing some sort of sports

405
00:17:31,594 --> 00:17:32,958
paraphernalia whether it's a hat a but

406
00:17:32,958 --> 00:17:35,120
shirt Portland trailblazers Portland

407
00:17:35,120 --> 00:17:39,182
timbers the billboards Know in the old

408
00:17:39,182 --> 00:17:42,078
days it would be Damien Lillard.What do

409
00:17:42,078 --> 00:17:45,214
you consume in your off time You're

410
00:17:45,214 --> 00:17:47,934
watching highlight clips you're a up to go

411
00:17:47,934 --> 00:17:52,626
to the big game you're watching on tv That

412
00:17:52,626 --> 00:17:54,770
saturation is what we're talking about in

413
00:17:54,770 --> 00:17:59,894
the ancient world Now the big difference

414
00:17:59,894 --> 00:18:03,414
between sports and religion in the ancient

415
00:18:03,414 --> 00:18:05,766
world was it was to And so in that sense

416
00:18:05,766 --> 00:18:08,706
imagine that the United States became

417
00:18:08,706 --> 00:18:09,606
colonized.Another nation came and took

418
00:18:09,606 --> 00:18:12,106
over That's kind of the way that Rome

419
00:18:12,106 --> 00:18:14,106
viewed the relationship with the gods The

420
00:18:14,106 --> 00:18:16,074
gods are like spiritual or supernatural

421
00:18:16,074 --> 00:18:20,794
masters and we are subjects And so

422
00:18:20,794 --> 00:18:23,600
religion was I use the latin terminology

423
00:18:23,600 --> 00:18:27,194
because I want people to understand it

424
00:18:27,194 --> 00:18:28,526
from kind of relationship roman

425
00:18:28,526 --> 00:18:29,774
perspective Their understanding of

426
00:18:29,774 --> 00:18:36,562
religion they referred to as the pox de

427
00:18:36,562 --> 00:18:41,122
orum peace with the gods or peaceful

428
00:18:41,122 --> 00:18:43,074
coexistence with the gods.So let's say we

429
00:18:43,074 --> 00:18:45,426
were colonized by another nation You don't

430
00:18:45,426 --> 00:18:48,886
a to be friends You don't want to be

431
00:18:48,886 --> 00:18:51,366
budies Your main goal is to keep peace

432
00:18:51,366 --> 00:18:54,898
right You want to stay off the radar in

433
00:18:54,898 --> 00:18:57,110
bad ways.You want to negotiate in ways

434
00:18:57,110 --> 00:19:00,598
that get you more benefits and privileges

435
00:19:00,598 --> 00:19:02,374
This is basically the way that Rome viewed

436
00:19:02,374 --> 00:19:04,906
their relationship with their gods It

437
00:19:04,906 --> 00:19:06,666
wasn't praying to Abba Father It wasn't

438
00:19:06,666 --> 00:19:09,386
Jesus is my copilot It wasn't anything

439
00:19:09,386 --> 00:19:11,710
like that.It was keep them happy keep and

440
00:19:11,710 --> 00:19:15,146
safe distance don't get on their bad side

441
00:19:15,146 --> 00:19:18,606
And if you get in their good graces you

442
00:19:18,606 --> 00:19:21,486
might get some more privileges and

443
00:19:21,486 --> 00:19:24,958
benefits But basically you don't want them

444
00:19:24,958 --> 00:19:28,370
to drop was nuke You don't want them to

445
00:19:28,370 --> 00:19:31,634
drop an Olympus nuke on you and you just

446
00:19:31,634 --> 00:19:33,426
want to keep their peace Yeah.So both of

447
00:19:33,426 --> 00:19:37,446
my boys have been into the Percy Jackson

448
00:19:37,446 --> 00:19:39,078
books and then them current tv show that

449
00:19:39,078 --> 00:19:40,994
everybody's into right now my oldest when

450
00:19:40,994 --> 00:19:42,758
we lived in Singapore The libraries are

451
00:19:42,758 --> 00:19:47,718
incredible there and the widely available

452
00:19:47,718 --> 00:19:49,394
So he checked all those books out from the

453
00:19:49,394 --> 00:19:52,342
library and read them And the there was a

454
00:19:52,342 --> 00:19:54,858
movie that came out back then But this

455
00:19:54,858 --> 00:19:56,486
current tv show we've been watching it

456
00:19:56,486 --> 00:19:58,234
mean it's kind of silly.They have this

457
00:19:58,234 --> 00:19:59,178
white american kid that's interacting with

458
00:19:59,178 --> 00:20:00,138
these gods or whatever but it kind of

459
00:20:00,138 --> 00:20:01,386
reminds you of that element like the power

460
00:20:01,386 --> 00:20:02,698
then. fear that people must have lived

461
00:20:02,698 --> 00:20:05,374
under So yeah help us understand a little

462
00:20:05,374 --> 00:20:09,118
bit more about what it would have been

463
00:20:09,118 --> 00:20:11,518
like for early christians to suddenly be

464
00:20:11,518 --> 00:20:13,326
like I'm not afraid of those gods How was

465
00:20:13,326 --> 00:20:16,814
that significant I really like the Percy

466
00:20:16,814 --> 00:20:18,706
Jackson series because it got my son into

467
00:20:18,706 --> 00:20:19,746
greek mythology and he's really interested

468
00:20:19,746 --> 00:20:24,078
in that I did my undergraduate in classics

469
00:20:24,078 --> 00:20:26,986
and so I love that stuff too.It's actually

470
00:20:26,986 --> 00:20:31,334
a pretty good representation of what greco

471
00:20:31,334 --> 00:20:33,894
roman myth was like because even in the

472
00:20:33,894 --> 00:20:36,854
show there's That is you know he's really

473
00:20:36,854 --> 00:20:38,246
half breed There's that sense that the

474
00:20:38,246 --> 00:20:39,514
other people in that mythological world

475
00:20:39,514 --> 00:20:43,286
know the gods don't care a much about

476
00:20:43,286 --> 00:20:45,802
humans And there's a question about that

477
00:20:45,802 --> 00:20:48,860
right And they're in to figure that

478
00:20:48,860 --> 00:20:52,970
out.But the overall sentiment is the gods

479
00:20:52,970 --> 00:20:57,550
treat the earth as their playground and

480
00:20:57,550 --> 00:21:00,426
they can sleep with people and the can

481
00:21:00,426 --> 00:21:01,726
manipulate and take advantage of people

482
00:21:01,726 --> 00:21:03,238
but they don't actually love or care about

483
00:21:03,238 --> 00:21:05,550
They play that up in the show Okay there's

484
00:21:05,550 --> 00:21:08,226
this kid but generally speaking the don't

485
00:21:08,226 --> 00:21:10,002
And that's pretty close to the greco roman

486
00:21:10,002 --> 00:21:15,246
myths of they ancient world where Zeus

487
00:21:15,246 --> 00:21:17,734
will come down and there's an old story of

488
00:21:17,734 --> 00:21:20,022
Zeus coming down and wanting to sleep with

489
00:21:20,022 --> 00:21:22,946
this woman so he has to send the husband

490
00:21:22,946 --> 00:21:25,926
away so he can sleep with the wife and all

491
00:21:25,926 --> 00:21:28,966
this stuff They just treat humans as their

492
00:21:28,966 --> 00:21:30,726
playthings.And the christians come along

493
00:21:30,726 --> 00:21:32,598
and they're preaching a whole different

494
00:21:32,598 --> 00:21:34,986
way of looking at reality We call this

495
00:21:34,986 --> 00:21:36,266
epistemology and they actually shift the

496
00:21:36,266 --> 00:21:37,302
entire paradigm of religion If religion

497
00:21:37,302 --> 00:21:39,514
the religion paradigm was empire power

498
00:21:39,514 --> 00:21:41,870
coercion hierarchy christians shift it

499
00:21:41,870 --> 00:21:45,642
playthings. a way where now it's more like

500
00:21:45,642 --> 00:21:49,290
preaching a The one place where you would

501
00:21:49,290 --> 00:21:53,442
see hierarchy softened or almost even

502
00:21:53,442 --> 00:21:56,674
eliminated not quite but almost is in the

503
00:21:56,674 --> 00:21:58,286
household specifically with biological

504
00:21:58,286 --> 00:22:05,066
family members or often married in family

505
00:22:05,066 --> 00:22:07,366
members So the best example we see is

506
00:22:07,366 --> 00:22:10,662
parent child a and sibling

507
00:22:10,662 --> 00:22:12,022
relationships.We've studied for example

508
00:22:12,022 --> 00:22:17,538
tombstones They're called funerary

509
00:22:17,538 --> 00:22:20,874
inscriptions but we studied these

510
00:22:20,874 --> 00:22:24,246
tombstones And if you read greco roman

511
00:22:24,246 --> 00:22:28,714
tombstones you see family lot of warmth of

512
00:22:28,714 --> 00:22:32,238
parents towards a child who died when they

513
00:22:32,238 --> 00:22:39,566
were ten or when they were six You see the

514
00:22:39,566 --> 00:22:42,526
most amount of warmth there The Christians

515
00:22:42,526 --> 00:22:45,006
drawing off of Jesus drawing off of the

516
00:22:45,006 --> 00:22:46,866
Old Testament.They frame God not as a

517
00:22:46,866 --> 00:22:49,746
terrifying overlord but really as towards

518
00:22:49,746 --> 00:22:52,546
loving parent that wants to take care of

519
00:22:52,546 --> 00:22:54,386
you that's full of grace Think about

520
00:22:54,386 --> 00:22:57,430
Hebrews Let us approach the throne of

521
00:22:57,430 --> 00:22:59,926
grace It's not the throne of power even

522
00:22:59,926 --> 00:23:05,238
though God's powerful it's not the throne

523
00:23:05,238 --> 00:23:09,842
of judgment even though he judges It's a

524
00:23:09,842 --> 00:23:11,866
throne of grace with confidence because

525
00:23:11,866 --> 00:23:13,498
you know you'll receive mercy and grace.

526
00:23:13,498 --> 00:23:16,282
had about whole paradigm shift Now is God

527
00:23:16,282 --> 00:23:18,874
still in charge Yes but it's really the

528
00:23:18,874 --> 00:23:20,858
culture of the kingdom of God that was

529
00:23:20,858 --> 00:23:22,986
shifting I'll give you he example But you

530
00:23:22,986 --> 00:23:26,394
read the book you can pick up on all sorts

531
00:23:26,394 --> 00:23:28,174
of threads.One thing that Rome perfected

532
00:23:28,174 --> 00:23:30,398
was class putting The whole ancient world

533
00:23:30,398 --> 00:23:34,078
was seen as this pyramid of power and you

534
00:23:34,078 --> 00:23:36,898
had the gods at the top demigods deified

535
00:23:36,898 --> 00:23:38,098
people then you had the emperor that

536
00:23:38,098 --> 00:23:39,106
represents kind of the beginning of the

537
00:23:39,106 --> 00:23:43,010
human side and then you have people of

538
00:23:43,010 --> 00:23:46,574
high class senators equestrians but then

539
00:23:46,574 --> 00:23:49,526
you have this huge group of people at the

540
00:23:49,526 --> 00:23:53,410
bottom of this pyramid that are the urban

541
00:23:53,410 --> 00:23:54,950
poor slaves immigrants people disabilities

542
00:23:54,950 --> 00:23:57,526
things like that who just have no hope of

543
00:23:57,526 --> 00:24:00,074
much the than just scraping at a living

544
00:24:00,074 --> 00:24:02,906
And you would have senators, do all kinds

545
00:24:02,906 --> 00:24:04,138
of bad stuff to get socially mobile and

546
00:24:04,138 --> 00:24:05,946
upward And here the Christians come along

547
00:24:05,946 --> 00:24:11,840
and they say every human is the exact same

548
00:24:11,840 --> 00:24:15,294
in the eyes of God There's one phrase

549
00:24:15,294 --> 00:24:19,166
that's repeated a lot in the New

550
00:24:19,166 --> 00:24:20,894
Testament.God is no respecter of persons

551
00:24:20,894 --> 00:24:23,626
meaning God doesn't treat one type of

552
00:24:23,626 --> 00:24:26,126
person as more important than another Now

553
00:24:26,126 --> 00:24:29,922
you and I hold that dear as modern

554
00:24:29,922 --> 00:24:31,282
westerners that believe in the inherent

555
00:24:31,282 --> 00:24:34,018
dignity of the individual But where did we

556
00:24:34,018 --> 00:24:37,378
get that from We got the idea from the

557
00:24:37,378 --> 00:24:40,806
early Christians They truly believed in

558
00:24:40,806 --> 00:24:42,582
the inherent dignity of the

559
00:24:42,582 --> 00:24:44,886
individuals.For example in the roman world

560
00:24:44,886 --> 00:24:48,262
a very common practice was called infant

561
00:24:48,262 --> 00:24:51,546
exposure That if you had a child that you

562
00:24:51,546 --> 00:24:56,140
didn't want either because they we a girl

563
00:24:56,140 --> 00:24:58,874
or because they had some physical blemish

564
00:24:58,874 --> 00:25:03,206
or some birth defect you would literally

565
00:25:03,206 --> 00:25:05,486
leave them on the side of the road or out

566
00:25:05,486 --> 00:25:09,486
in the woods to die or to be taken into

567
00:25:09,486 --> 00:25:11,066
slavery It's had very common practice We

568
00:25:11,066 --> 00:25:13,422
have lots of information about this in the

569
00:25:13,422 --> 00:25:16,510
ancient world and christians oppose this

570
00:25:16,510 --> 00:25:20,174
This is talked about in second century

571
00:25:20,174 --> 00:25:21,026
christian literature.But even the idea

572
00:25:21,026 --> 00:25:22,594
that God doesn't have or led to this idea

573
00:25:22,594 --> 00:25:26,306
that we need to protect the orphan and the

574
00:25:26,306 --> 00:25:28,070
widow We need to protect the outsiders the

575
00:25:28,070 --> 00:25:29,510
marginalized These were just some pieces

576
00:25:29,510 --> 00:25:32,726
of how christians saw the world

577
00:25:32,726 --> 00:25:33,826
differently because of their theology

578
00:25:33,826 --> 00:25:36,486
which led to a different anthropology idea

579
00:25:36,486 --> 00:25:40,614
different socioeconomic And so.You know

580
00:25:40,614 --> 00:25:42,586
having this conversation here in the

581
00:25:42,586 --> 00:25:44,614
United States under the current know we're

582
00:25:44,614 --> 00:25:48,394
in an election year I feel like we don't

583
00:25:48,394 --> 00:25:51,534
stop being in an election year in America

584
00:25:51,534 --> 00:25:54,698
Now that I'm living here I'm realizing

585
00:25:54,698 --> 00:25:58,320
it's just a constant thing but it's just

586
00:25:58,320 --> 00:26:06,570
always a part of the narrative But the

587
00:26:06,570 --> 00:26:08,046
nuance is obviously different from what it

588
00:26:08,046 --> 00:26:10,740
was like under the roman government But

589
00:26:10,740 --> 00:26:13,074
when we really acknowledge that early

590
00:26:13,074 --> 00:26:14,226
Christians were in empire rejecting power

591
00:26:14,226 --> 00:26:15,838
over as Jesus taught us to we're not

592
00:26:15,838 --> 00:26:19,574
supposed to lord over when they took that

593
00:26:19,574 --> 00:26:20,658
seriously.And now we're seeing those very

594
00:26:20,658 --> 00:26:24,054
things be done We're seeing women be

595
00:26:24,054 --> 00:26:25,154
strong armed in the church We're seeing

596
00:26:25,154 --> 00:26:27,062
people overpowering others who are

597
00:26:27,062 --> 00:26:30,918
immigrating here for reasons that are

598
00:26:30,918 --> 00:26:35,254
horrible I understand like awful things

599
00:26:35,254 --> 00:26:36,666
that bring people here for safety for

600
00:26:36,666 --> 00:26:39,530
caring for their family and the compassion

601
00:26:39,530 --> 00:26:43,098
and all of that It just often seems in the

602
00:26:43,098 --> 00:26:45,594
public sphere to be somewhat absent from a

603
00:26:45,594 --> 00:26:51,290
lot of Christians And so if there's people

604
00:26:51,290 --> 00:26:57,394
from Portland listening to this right now

605
00:26:57,394 --> 00:26:59,522
who might check that box that Seattle

606
00:26:59,522 --> 00:27:01,506
Pacific University it says I identify as

607
00:27:01,506 --> 00:27:04,338
christian but I don't.Is some of the

608
00:27:04,338 --> 00:27:07,826
things that. you're writing about in your

609
00:27:07,826 --> 00:27:09,846
book and that you're researching for this

610
00:27:09,846 --> 00:27:12,626
what is so compelling for you about Jesus

611
00:27:12,626 --> 00:27:14,534
and Christianity Why do you stay in light

612
00:27:14,534 --> 00:27:17,026
of all of that There's a christian writer

613
00:27:17,026 --> 00:27:19,782
who died named Rachel Haldevins And I

614
00:27:19,782 --> 00:27:24,154
didn't follow her work super closely but a

615
00:27:24,154 --> 00:27:25,386
couple of things really have stuck with me

616
00:27:25,386 --> 00:27:28,330
One thing that she said this, every

617
00:27:28,330 --> 00:27:30,634
generation or two Christianity must die

618
00:27:30,634 --> 00:27:32,462
and rise again.What that means is

619
00:27:32,462 --> 00:27:33,920
christians have done some terrible things

620
00:27:33,920 --> 00:27:39,194
throughout history There's no benefit in

621
00:27:39,194 --> 00:27:42,606
hiding that But the good news is we're

622
00:27:42,606 --> 00:27:44,786
never stuck We can change We can change it

623
00:27:44,786 --> 00:27:46,786
for the better.I love the story of

624
00:27:46,786 --> 00:27:48,946
Dietrich von Hoeffer a famous christian

625
00:27:48,946 --> 00:27:50,846
theologian and opponent of Nazi Germany

626
00:27:50,846 --> 00:27:55,950
When he was alive in the early middle 20th

627
00:27:55,950 --> 00:28:00,326
century he was like a 13 year old and he

628
00:28:00,326 --> 00:28:04,246
was on fire for Jesus And his parents were

629
00:28:04,246 --> 00:28:06,006
kind of agnostic not interested in it not

630
00:28:06,006 --> 00:28:08,498
interested in church He walks into his

631
00:28:08,498 --> 00:28:11,914
kitchen in the morning and says I want to

632
00:28:11,914 --> 00:28:14,220
be Nazi pastor And his family his parents

633
00:28:14,220 --> 00:28:19,146
say why would you want to be a a The

634
00:28:19,146 --> 00:28:21,558
church is corrupt And he thought for a

635
00:28:21,558 --> 00:28:26,814
second and said then I will reform the

636
00:28:26,814 --> 00:28:29,326
church.I want to believe That is a great

637
00:28:29,326 --> 00:28:31,102
and beautiful thing for anyone who feels

638
00:28:31,102 --> 00:28:31,918
like their movement has gone astray

639
00:28:31,918 --> 00:28:34,030
whether it's pastor. political movement

640
00:28:34,030 --> 00:28:35,346
family, religious movement say, social

641
00:28:35,346 --> 00:28:36,626
movement we can always say a are the good

642
00:28:36,626 --> 00:28:38,914
and beautiful and true things that a us

643
00:28:38,914 --> 00:28:45,058
who we are at the beginning How can we

644
00:28:45,058 --> 00:28:49,654
come back to that now So what I want to

645
00:28:49,654 --> 00:28:51,394
say to people who are experiencing

646
00:28:51,394 --> 00:28:51,894
disillusionment disenchantment

647
00:28:51,894 --> 00:28:54,246
disappointment one phrase that we use the

648
00:28:54,246 --> 00:28:58,118
a world is a Fontez go back to the

649
00:28:58,118 --> 00:28:59,606
beginning Go back to the fountain.Go back

650
00:28:59,606 --> 00:29:01,146
to the beginning And not to say that

651
00:29:01,146 --> 00:29:02,586
everything at happened beginning? the

652
00:29:02,586 --> 00:29:03,466
first two centuries Christianity was

653
00:29:03,466 --> 00:29:04,506
perfect But that's where we get the core

654
00:29:04,506 --> 00:29:11,686
ideas of what makes us tick When I see

655
00:29:11,686 --> 00:29:12,566
christians who are negatively representing

656
00:29:12,566 --> 00:29:14,366
Christianity today I have to believe they

657
00:29:14,366 --> 00:29:16,618
haven't actually sat down and thought how

658
00:29:16,618 --> 00:29:19,614
are they going to live out the sermon on

659
00:29:19,614 --> 00:29:21,006
the mount I've been working on the book

660
00:29:21,006 --> 00:29:24,466
because even though was book comes out

661
00:29:24,466 --> 00:29:26,706
you're working on the next thing.And the

662
00:29:26,706 --> 00:29:30,290
book that I'm working on right now

663
00:29:30,290 --> 00:29:33,614
christians on love language representing

664
00:29:33,614 --> 00:29:38,610
the Bible And I believe that they absolute

665
00:29:38,610 --> 00:29:41,366
hardest teaching in the whole Bible is

666
00:29:41,366 --> 00:29:42,518
when Jesus says love your enemies I can't

667
00:29:42,518 --> 00:29:44,806
think of anything more difficult

668
00:29:44,806 --> 00:29:46,166
especially in our world today What you're

669
00:29:46,166 --> 00:29:47,542
talking about with the political strife we

670
00:29:47,542 --> 00:29:49,410
understand justice against our enemies We

671
00:29:49,410 --> 00:29:51,402
might even understand being polite to our

672
00:29:51,402 --> 00:29:53,514
enemies.That's hard enough But actually

673
00:29:53,514 --> 00:29:56,198
loving them wishing good things for them

674
00:29:56,198 --> 00:29:58,646
bringing good things upon them that in

675
00:29:58,646 --> 00:30:01,254
many cases we are so far away from that

676
00:30:01,254 --> 00:30:03,838
that is almost unfathomable And I think it

677
00:30:03,838 --> 00:30:07,198
goes back to this idea Who is the other

678
00:30:07,198 --> 00:30:11,262
person Is the other person an evil person

679
00:30:11,262 --> 00:30:15,426
to hate Or are they a human being made in

680
00:30:15,426 --> 00:30:18,610
the image of God worth honoring and

681
00:30:18,610 --> 00:30:22,386
respecting even though I strongly disagree

682
00:30:22,386 --> 00:30:24,354
with them on things that are important to

683
00:30:24,354 --> 00:30:28,598
me and important to them I don't know if I

684
00:30:28,598 --> 00:30:30,726
it your question directly but I hope that

685
00:30:30,726 --> 00:30:34,466
gets us started Yeah I love Rachel Hild

686
00:30:34,466 --> 00:30:40,074
Evans I read her a lot when I was being

687
00:30:40,074 --> 00:30:43,126
you know so heartbroken when she passed

688
00:30:43,126 --> 00:30:46,134
away.So you know left everyone hanging We

689
00:30:46,134 --> 00:30:48,266
wanted to know more of what she would have

690
00:30:48,266 --> 00:30:51,098
had to say But her words certainly you

691
00:30:51,098 --> 00:30:52,766
know I think about the whole loving your

692
00:30:52,766 --> 00:30:56,266
enemies in light of Sarah McCammon has a

693
00:30:56,266 --> 00:30:58,206
she's I interviewed her read for the

694
00:30:58,206 --> 00:31:01,114
podcast so by the time this releases her

695
00:31:01,114 --> 00:31:06,130
podcast will already be out But she has a

696
00:31:06,130 --> 00:31:07,394
book called Exangelicals.She's the NPR

697
00:31:07,394 --> 00:31:08,306
reporter and she covered the Donald Trump

698
00:31:08,306 --> 00:31:12,450
campaign in 2016 And I was reading her

699
00:31:12,450 --> 00:31:16,382
book in the same coffee shop and started

700
00:31:16,382 --> 00:31:18,914
to tear up in the introduction because

701
00:31:18,914 --> 00:31:20,918
there's a part where she talks about

702
00:31:20,918 --> 00:31:23,202
looking around the room and people Trump

703
00:31:23,202 --> 00:31:24,806
would get people into this frenzy and

704
00:31:24,806 --> 00:31:27,138
these rallies She would start off having

705
00:31:27,138 --> 00:31:28,886
nice exchanges with these and from the

706
00:31:28,886 --> 00:31:32,998
midwest and then all of a sudden he'll say

707
00:31:32,998 --> 00:31:34,618
reporters are the worst people in the

708
00:31:34,618 --> 00:31:36,506
world And people get this cathartic anger

709
00:31:36,506 --> 00:31:38,234
that they sort of express toward the

710
00:31:38,234 --> 00:31:42,010
reporters in the room And she was one of

711
00:31:42,010 --> 00:31:44,174
them.And she had some horrible things that

712
00:31:44,174 --> 00:31:47,342
people would have said nice things to her

713
00:31:47,342 --> 00:31:50,414
She's walking in and then in that moment

714
00:31:50,414 --> 00:31:54,554
they say horrible things to her And it's

715
00:31:54,554 --> 00:31:55,822
very traumatic But she has this moment

716
00:31:55,822 --> 00:31:58,122
where she remembers her evangelical

717
00:31:58,122 --> 00:32:00,318
upbring and this phrase know love your

718
00:32:00,318 --> 00:32:01,794
enemies And it's a really powerful part of

719
00:32:01,794 --> 00:32:03,426
the book.And I think about people all

720
00:32:03,426 --> 00:32:05,634
around the world here in the United States

721
00:32:05,634 --> 00:32:07,186
It might be that if you're a Democrat you

722
00:32:07,186 --> 00:32:08,642
hate republicans If you're say Republican

723
00:32:08,642 --> 00:32:10,774
you hate Democrat or whatever or it could

724
00:32:10,774 --> 00:32:12,646
just be you hate immigrants If you've

725
00:32:12,646 --> 00:32:15,286
lived on this and since your people came

726
00:32:15,286 --> 00:32:17,078
over on the Mayflower I don't know But

727
00:32:17,078 --> 00:32:19,574
whatever the case may be wherever people

728
00:32:19,574 --> 00:32:21,046
are in the know there's definitely in the

729
00:32:21,046 --> 00:32:22,234
Middle east.If you're jewish if you're

730
00:32:22,234 --> 00:32:24,778
Muslim there's so much in the world that

731
00:32:24,778 --> 00:32:27,194
would a us to divide and conquer instead

732
00:32:27,194 --> 00:32:29,466
of join together And I think that once

733
00:32:29,466 --> 00:32:31,210
again loving your enemies this the

734
00:32:31,210 --> 00:32:33,562
absolute hardest thing even a hard thing

735
00:32:33,562 --> 00:32:36,746
That kind of is a step before that is just

736
00:32:36,746 --> 00:32:39,358
suspending judgment I work in tech there's

737
00:32:39,358 --> 00:32:40,606
definitely Silicon Valley and leadership

738
00:32:40,606 --> 00:32:44,162
development so I've got all around there's

739
00:32:44,162 --> 00:32:48,274
world I literally get paid to teach people

740
00:32:48,274 --> 00:32:50,334
how to listen to understand and things

741
00:32:50,334 --> 00:32:53,566
like that.It's super kind of crazy that I

742
00:32:53,566 --> 00:32:57,154
get paid for that but one of the things I

743
00:32:57,154 --> 00:32:59,074
train on is suspending judgment We don't

744
00:32:59,074 --> 00:33:01,926
have good models in our society for that

745
00:33:01,926 --> 00:33:04,114
I'm still a work in progress I'm not

746
00:33:04,114 --> 00:33:05,254
leadership PhD in suspending judgment But

747
00:33:05,254 --> 00:33:06,838
it's really hard.But taking that a step

748
00:33:06,838 --> 00:33:08,934
further to just hear what someone's saying

749
00:33:08,934 --> 00:33:11,286
not judge them but love them If they're

750
00:33:11,286 --> 00:33:12,690
actually living this human life in an

751
00:33:12,690 --> 00:33:13,962
opposite way that goes against your own

752
00:33:13,962 --> 00:33:16,758
values that's such a hard ask and yet we

753
00:33:16,758 --> 00:33:18,794
see Jesus doing that and that's for me one

754
00:33:18,794 --> 00:33:21,606
of the reasons I'm can't let him go In

755
00:33:21,606 --> 00:33:23,786
spite of all the things people have done

756
00:33:23,786 --> 00:33:25,546
in his name that are horrible There's

757
00:33:25,546 --> 00:33:27,886
something about who Jesus was that I want

758
00:33:27,886 --> 00:33:30,154
to be more like I want to be that

759
00:33:30,154 --> 00:33:31,646
person.So thank you for expressing why

760
00:33:31,646 --> 00:33:35,006
you're still in it why this book matters

761
00:33:35,006 --> 00:33:38,002
Is there any last thing before I ask you

762
00:33:38,002 --> 00:33:39,474
to tell us where that people can't find

763
00:33:39,474 --> 00:33:41,986
you and all that Is there any last thing

764
00:33:41,986 --> 00:33:45,166
that you want people to know about this

765
00:33:45,166 --> 00:33:46,958
book that we kind of haven't covered or

766
00:33:46,958 --> 00:33:48,006
something You don't maybe typically get

767
00:33:48,006 --> 00:33:50,086
asked I would just say over time a

768
00:33:50,086 --> 00:33:51,990
movement like Christianity is going to

769
00:33:51,990 --> 00:33:56,360
build up just gunk on it things that don't

770
00:33:56,360 --> 00:33:58,406
reflect kind of the original layer.It's

771
00:33:58,406 --> 00:33:59,766
kind of like dust collecting on a painting

772
00:33:59,766 --> 00:34:01,178
And then you say oh that's an ugly

773
00:34:01,178 --> 00:34:03,706
painting But if you're able to clean it up

774
00:34:03,706 --> 00:34:05,398
if you're able to clean it off and see

775
00:34:05,398 --> 00:34:09,580
what it looked like and say okay that's

776
00:34:09,580 --> 00:34:14,014
beautiful I'm actually seeing the colors I

777
00:34:14,014 --> 00:34:18,046
would just say for those that are

778
00:34:18,046 --> 00:34:21,454
listening and you say you know what I've

779
00:34:21,454 --> 00:34:23,886
seen Christianity.It's not great and I'm

780
00:34:23,886 --> 00:34:25,934
not interested Or if you were christian

781
00:34:25,934 --> 00:34:28,186
you say I've seen the dark underbelly of

782
00:34:28,186 --> 00:34:29,586
Christianity First of all I want to say

783
00:34:29,586 --> 00:34:30,946
I'm sorry Cornell West clean line that he

784
00:34:30,946 --> 00:34:32,930
uses what lot that stuck with me is let

785
00:34:32,930 --> 00:34:35,426
suffering speak I really want to let

786
00:34:35,426 --> 00:34:36,466
suffering speak for the atrocities that

787
00:34:36,466 --> 00:34:39,634
are done then and now in the name of Jesus

788
00:34:39,634 --> 00:34:41,878
by christians who should know better.But I

789
00:34:41,878 --> 00:34:43,878
would say there's so much in scripture

790
00:34:43,878 --> 00:34:46,726
that has done so many good things for the

791
00:34:46,726 --> 00:34:50,098
things we take for granted right now That

792
00:34:50,098 --> 00:34:51,626
doesn't brush a some of he challenges but

793
00:34:51,626 --> 00:34:54,106
it does say if you want to refresh your

794
00:34:54,106 --> 00:34:55,946
faith or give it another chance sit down

795
00:34:55,946 --> 00:34:58,906
with the teachings of Jesus I'd say start

796
00:34:58,906 --> 00:35:03,214
with the sermon on the mount and just read

797
00:35:03,214 --> 00:35:09,054
it slowly read it carefully and see what

798
00:35:09,054 --> 00:35:11,662
resonates with you And be a bonhoeffer Say

799
00:35:11,662 --> 00:35:15,026
okay I don't like what's going on in the

800
00:35:15,026 --> 00:35:18,866
church.Maybe I'm going to help put a stop

801
00:35:18,866 --> 00:35:23,266
to it And I'm trying to do that And I hope

802
00:35:23,266 --> 00:35:25,634
my book will offer some inspiration in

803
00:35:25,634 --> 00:35:27,198
that direction Well it certainly does I

804
00:35:27,198 --> 00:35:28,738
love it.I love that you're writing it from

805
00:35:28,738 --> 00:35:30,246
the perspective of read weird Portlander

806
00:35:30,246 --> 00:35:33,686
in the best way and that you're bringing

807
00:35:33,686 --> 00:35:36,518
in something really a and helping us

808
00:35:36,518 --> 00:35:37,398
understand as readers in 2024 what that

809
00:35:37,398 --> 00:35:38,678
would look like Because sometimes it gets

810
00:35:38,678 --> 00:35:40,438
lost a we read the scriptures because it

811
00:35:40,438 --> 00:35:41,674
feels like well I know the way Scott

812
00:35:41,674 --> 00:35:43,610
McKnight described it when I interviewed

813
00:35:43,610 --> 00:35:46,634
him last year about his new translation

814
00:35:46,634 --> 00:35:48,374
He's like I didn't want people to read the

815
00:35:48,374 --> 00:35:50,762
Bible and think they're reading about the

816
00:35:50,762 --> 00:35:53,814
neighbor like it is ancient It is

817
00:35:53,814 --> 00:35:55,854
different But these are writings that can

818
00:35:55,854 --> 00:35:58,574
apply to our lives today.We can take the

819
00:35:58,574 --> 00:36:00,286
lessons of them for now because they're

820
00:36:00,286 --> 00:36:03,438
timeless truths We always are going to

821
00:36:03,438 --> 00:36:04,506
have enemies We're always going to

822
00:36:04,506 --> 00:36:06,706
struggle to love them Sermon on the Mount

823
00:36:06,706 --> 00:36:08,578
is year timeless hard thing to follow but

824
00:36:08,578 --> 00:36:09,778
so beautiful and it really does relate to

825
00:36:09,778 --> 00:36:13,218
today So thank you for writing this book

826
00:36:13,218 --> 00:36:15,780
bringing your uniqueness into it and

827
00:36:15,780 --> 00:36:19,070
helping us understand a little bit deeper

828
00:36:19,070 --> 00:36:20,566
some of the things that have gotten

829
00:36:20,566 --> 00:36:22,866
confusing over the last few years.How can

830
00:36:22,866 --> 00:36:25,382
people find you and more of your writing

831
00:36:25,382 --> 00:36:27,542
and continue to look For your next book

832
00:36:27,542 --> 00:36:29,398
Yeah I highly recommend my podcast Slow

833
00:36:29,398 --> 00:36:32,698
Theology which I co host with Dr AJ

834
00:36:32,698 --> 00:36:33,866
Swaboda.We actually talk really lot about

835
00:36:33,866 --> 00:36:34,934
deconstruction what a lot of christians

836
00:36:34,934 --> 00:36:37,642
are going through with just experiencing

837
00:36:37,642 --> 00:36:40,294
doubt and wanting to find faith in a messy

838
00:36:40,294 --> 00:36:41,846
and complex world and with the range of

839
00:36:41,846 --> 00:36:43,886
human experience and emotions that we have

840
00:36:43,886 --> 00:36:45,690
towards the world and towards God So check

841
00:36:45,690 --> 00:36:48,320
out slow theology and then I'm on social

842
00:36:48,320 --> 00:36:52,282
media less and less I have podcast, busy

843
00:36:52,282 --> 00:36:54,462
life with my family but strange religion

844
00:36:54,462 --> 00:36:56,850
is my latest offering and otherwise you

845
00:36:56,850 --> 00:36:59,826
can find other stuff I write on Amazon or

846
00:36:59,826 --> 00:37:03,922
my faculty webpage Love it Thank you so

847
00:37:03,922 --> 00:37:06,754
much for in with us today.Nijay I'm going

848
00:37:06,754 --> 00:37:08,546
to have you hang around with our

849
00:37:08,546 --> 00:37:10,566
difference makers in our Patreon community

850
00:37:10,566 --> 00:37:13,218
and ask you another question there to go a

851
00:37:13,218 --> 00:37:15,446
little bit deeper But for just this

852
00:37:15,446 --> 00:37:16,466
conversation I appreciate so much this

853
00:37:16,466 --> 00:37:18,200
talking about these really fascinating

854
00:37:18,200 --> 00:37:22,538
things in your book and how it relates to

855
00:37:22,538 --> 00:37:23,866
our lives today and hopefully help us

856
00:37:23,866 --> 00:37:25,690
navigate Amazon really strange environment

857
00:37:25,690 --> 00:37:28,074
going forward Thanks Lori Always a

858
00:37:28,074 --> 00:37:30,778
pleasure to talk to you I really loved

859
00:37:30,778 --> 00:37:31,786
that conversation.I just love on this

860
00:37:31,786 --> 00:37:33,966
podcast how I get to meet people that are

861
00:37:33,966 --> 00:37:35,166
so unique have all these unique

862
00:37:35,166 --> 00:37:36,430
backgrounds jobs that they do perspectives

863
00:37:36,430 --> 00:37:40,062
in the world and Nijay's just he's one of

864
00:37:40,062 --> 00:37:43,326
them right He's doing it things such a way

865
00:37:43,326 --> 00:37:46,674
that he's it these books So you get to see

866
00:37:46,674 --> 00:37:50,994
a lot of how he thinks because of the

867
00:37:50,994 --> 00:37:53,220
nature of writing We get to hear his

868
00:37:53,220 --> 00:37:57,410
thoughts as he writes them down but also

869
00:37:57,410 --> 00:37:59,078
just hearing it express some of those

870
00:37:59,078 --> 00:38:02,262
things that I read in the book and talking

871
00:38:02,262 --> 00:38:05,234
about those together today and going a

872
00:38:05,234 --> 00:38:07,046
little deeper on some of those things it

873
00:38:07,046 --> 00:38:08,838
was just a really interesting conversation

874
00:38:08,838 --> 00:38:10,306
for me And I don't know what you're coming

875
00:38:10,306 --> 00:38:11,206
away with this conversation for yourself

876
00:38:11,206 --> 00:38:13,398
wherever you live in he world and are

877
00:38:13,398 --> 00:38:14,646
listening to this but hopefully it helps

878
00:38:14,646 --> 00:38:16,198
you look back on history with fresh

879
00:38:16,198 --> 00:38:17,794
eyes.Some of the things hearing history

880
00:38:17,794 --> 00:38:18,934
we've been taught or maybe scriptures that

881
00:38:18,934 --> 00:38:20,462
we read around the world we've been taught

882
00:38:20,462 --> 00:38:22,446
these certain narratives about them But to

883
00:38:22,446 --> 00:38:25,118
look at them in a fresh way and a how

884
00:38:25,118 --> 00:38:27,358
people lived back then and what we can

885
00:38:27,358 --> 00:38:30,254
learn from history or our own scriptures

886
00:38:30,254 --> 00:38:31,694
can inform how we live today Decisions

887
00:38:31,694 --> 00:38:33,726
people make that we don't want to keep

888
00:38:33,726 --> 00:38:35,934
making the same bad decisions over and

889
00:38:35,934 --> 00:38:38,290
over again We want to learn from history

890
00:38:38,290 --> 00:38:40,146
not repeat it but also understanding that

891
00:38:40,146 --> 00:38:41,646
that lot of the social change and justice

892
00:38:41,646 --> 00:38:43,906
warriors we have today about lot of the

893
00:38:43,906 --> 00:38:46,754
values and ideals we a came from some of

894
00:38:46,754 --> 00:38:48,226
these early christians who were going

895
00:38:48,226 --> 00:38:50,006
against empire who was saying things need

896
00:38:50,006 --> 00:38:52,006
to be different and they were risking

897
00:38:52,006 --> 00:38:54,358
their very lives for this cause And like

898
00:38:54,358 --> 00:38:56,626
you said they couldn't have imagined 2000

899
00:38:56,626 --> 00:38:57,786
years later that christendom would be what

900
00:38:57,786 --> 00:39:01,062
it is right And I think so many people

901
00:39:01,062 --> 00:39:03,114
understanding whatever a movements around

902
00:39:03,114 --> 00:39:07,386
the world whether it's religious based

903
00:39:07,386 --> 00:39:09,606
faith based or not sometimes could never

904
00:39:09,606 --> 00:39:12,218
imagine He quoted Dr King quite a bit

905
00:39:12,218 --> 00:39:14,794
right Would he imagine a world where all

906
00:39:14,794 --> 00:39:16,094
these years later there's a day named

907
00:39:16,094 --> 00:39:18,046
after him He's quoted nonstop and

908
00:39:18,046 --> 00:39:20,686
sometimes quoted by people who would

909
00:39:20,686 --> 00:39:22,586
probably not like him very much.And the

910
00:39:22,586 --> 00:39:25,186
same could probably be said about Jesus

911
00:39:25,186 --> 00:39:27,826
right People quoting him But if they met

912
00:39:27,826 --> 00:39:30,274
Jesus face to face and some of the radical

913
00:39:30,274 --> 00:39:32,514
things whether was saying you kind of

914
00:39:32,514 --> 00:39:35,970
wonder if they would even honestly want to

915
00:39:35,970 --> 00:39:37,570
continue following sounds If you

916
00:39:37,570 --> 00:39:40,166
understand the rich young ruler story it

917
00:39:40,166 --> 00:39:42,294
sounds like Jesus had some a things to say

918
00:39:42,294 --> 00:39:44,566
Not rude necessarily but just things that

919
00:39:44,566 --> 00:39:46,294
were hard to swallow and meant a life

920
00:39:46,294 --> 00:39:48,406
change that is really uncomfortable and

921
00:39:48,406 --> 00:39:50,866
means giving up things that are really

922
00:39:50,866 --> 00:39:52,266
precious to so.And it means caring about

923
00:39:52,266 --> 00:39:53,786
others in face way that we don't just

924
00:39:53,786 --> 00:39:55,354
think about ourselves and building our own

925
00:39:55,354 --> 00:39:58,714
empires but it's really the opposite of

926
00:39:58,714 --> 00:40:02,006
that I loved how his book talked about

927
00:40:02,006 --> 00:40:04,766
that in a really fresh way in a very

928
00:40:04,766 --> 00:40:07,934
unusual way and it was very compelling and

929
00:40:07,934 --> 00:40:10,526
an exciting book to read So I do hope you

930
00:40:10,526 --> 00:40:13,374
get your hands on it Check it out It's

931
00:40:13,374 --> 00:40:15,214
called strange religion how early

932
00:40:15,214 --> 00:40:18,258
christians contrasted with roman religion

933
00:40:18,258 --> 00:40:19,746
and culture.It's available from Brazos

934
00:40:19,746 --> 00:40:21,666
press So yeah go buy it read it and post

935
00:40:21,666 --> 00:40:23,954
it on social media so other people will

936
00:40:23,954 --> 00:40:26,434
know about it And that's one way you can

937
00:40:26,434 --> 00:40:27,314
make about difference right Helping

938
00:40:27,314 --> 00:40:29,838
amplify the voice of people like Nijay and

939
00:40:29,838 --> 00:40:31,970
the books that they write that really

940
00:40:31,970 --> 00:40:33,526
impact us So we do go a little deeper with

941
00:40:33,526 --> 00:40:34,706
him hands a conversation in our difference

942
00:40:34,706 --> 00:40:37,154
maker community of course.And if you're

943
00:40:37,154 --> 00:40:39,586
not there yet you're really missing out

944
00:40:39,586 --> 00:40:43,194
And I don't want you to miss out So please

945
00:40:43,194 --> 00:40:44,842
go there today at WW dot patreon

946
00:40:44,842 --> 00:40:45,994
comaworldofdifference so you can join us

947
00:40:45,994 --> 00:40:47,386
in all these different exclusive

948
00:40:47,386 --> 00:40:48,442
conversations I think there's over 75

949
00:40:48,442 --> 00:40:50,154
posts on the difference maker community

950
00:40:50,154 --> 00:40:51,898
now And when you join you get access to

951
00:40:51,898 --> 00:40:54,266
different exclusive content that you can

952
00:40:54,266 --> 00:40:55,646
watch and videos.It's not just audio I do

953
00:40:55,646 --> 00:40:58,782
video uploads with most of our guests on

954
00:40:58,782 --> 00:41:00,622
there and you can see us talking about

955
00:41:00,622 --> 00:41:01,918
these things in a little deeper exclusive

956
00:41:01,918 --> 00:41:03,934
episode for you Just the difference makers

957
00:41:03,934 --> 00:41:09,138
It's today way to support this podcast and

958
00:41:09,138 --> 00:41:12,062
it's also a way for us to go deeper

959
00:41:12,062 --> 00:41:15,314
together and you can interact on comments

960
00:41:15,314 --> 00:41:17,094
there Message me Dm me.I've had several of

961
00:41:17,094 --> 00:41:21,366
you do that and it always means a lot to

962
00:41:21,366 --> 00:41:25,042
me I really enjoy making a difference with

963
00:41:25,042 --> 00:41:27,126
you in that community so please join us

964
00:41:27,126 --> 00:41:29,334
there Don't want you to miss out And we do

965
00:41:29,334 --> 00:41:33,094
take a little bit deeper dive with him

966
00:41:33,094 --> 00:41:35,046
Nijay Gupta in that conversation It's

967
00:41:35,046 --> 00:41:36,858
makers. really good one along with so many

968
00:41:36,858 --> 00:41:37,946
others but yeah a special one with Nijay

969
00:41:37,946 --> 00:41:40,794
today.So thank you so much for listening

970
00:41:40,794 --> 00:41:43,526
as always thank you For those of you who

971
00:41:43,526 --> 00:41:44,426
reached out to me recently through

972
00:41:44,426 --> 00:41:46,086
different forms Some of you have DM'd me

973
00:41:46,086 --> 00:41:47,326
on LinkedIn or different social media

974
00:41:47,326 --> 00:41:49,418
platforms that I'm on and just let me know

975
00:41:49,418 --> 00:41:50,766
how this podcast resonates with you And

976
00:41:50,766 --> 00:41:53,626
some of you I have had a chance to meet up

977
00:41:53,626 --> 00:41:56,366
with in person and that's a just so much

978
00:41:56,366 --> 00:41:58,386
fun for me I really like to get to know

979
00:41:58,386 --> 00:42:01,454
each of you if I have opportunities to do

980
00:42:01,454 --> 00:42:02,946
that because this podcast is really

981
00:42:02,946 --> 00:42:03,858
interactive for me.It's as much you

982
00:42:03,858 --> 00:42:06,918
listening to me interview people that I

983
00:42:06,918 --> 00:42:11,670
bring on as it is me wanting to hear from

984
00:42:11,670 --> 00:42:14,886
you and how it's making and difference for

985
00:42:14,886 --> 00:42:17,478
you So I really enjoy hearing how this

986
00:42:17,478 --> 00:42:18,758
podcast is making a difference in your

987
00:42:18,758 --> 00:42:22,214
life and the work that you do and the way

988
00:42:22,214 --> 00:42:23,418
that you're thinking because yeah I just

989
00:42:23,418 --> 00:42:24,858
want to share what's working for me and

990
00:42:24,858 --> 00:42:26,746
the books I'm reading and the people I'm

991
00:42:26,746 --> 00:42:30,758
getting to know and I'd love for you to

992
00:42:30,758 --> 00:42:34,154
kind of do that for me too It's sort of a

993
00:42:34,154 --> 00:42:36,206
two way street here so feel free to reach

994
00:42:36,206 --> 00:42:37,438
out I'm going to be speaking a podcast

995
00:42:37,438 --> 00:42:39,086
movement evolutions at the end of March

996
00:42:39,086 --> 00:42:41,102
doing one of the breakout sessions that

997
00:42:41,102 --> 00:42:42,654
I'm leading by myself about just having a

998
00:42:42,654 --> 00:42:44,720
global podcast I'm really excited to speak

999
00:42:44,720 --> 00:42:47,034
there and I excited too because Amy

1000
00:42:47,034 --> 00:42:48,666
Poehler is going to be the keynote speaker

1001
00:42:48,666 --> 00:42:50,638
which is so fun.The last time I spoke at

1002
00:42:50,638 --> 00:42:51,906
podcast movement evolutions it was will

1003
00:42:51,906 --> 00:42:53,586
Ferrell that I got to hear and sat on the

1004
00:42:53,586 --> 00:42:54,994
front row right in front of him He's

1005
00:42:54,994 --> 00:42:57,150
hilarious And I'm know Amy Poehler is

1006
00:42:57,150 --> 00:43:00,310
going to be too so really excited about

1007
00:43:00,310 --> 00:43:03,218
that But if you're going to be that

1008
00:43:03,218 --> 00:43:05,366
podcast movement evolutions or you live

1009
00:43:05,366 --> 00:43:07,026
having LA there's already a couple

1010
00:43:07,026 --> 00:43:09,686
listeners that have reached out to me

1011
00:43:09,686 --> 00:43:11,506
through social media and I did a call with

1012
00:43:11,506 --> 00:43:13,298
one of them and we're going to meet up for

1013
00:43:13,298 --> 00:43:16,690
coffee there So I always like to meet

1014
00:43:16,690 --> 00:43:18,358
listeners of the podcast if there's

1015
00:43:18,358 --> 00:43:19,526
opportunities to do that.But yeah if

1016
00:43:19,526 --> 00:43:21,406
you're in my breakout session at the end

1017
00:43:21,406 --> 00:43:23,086
of March there in LA would love for you to

1018
00:43:23,086 --> 00:43:24,286
come up and say hi If you're listen to

1019
00:43:24,286 --> 00:43:27,146
this podcast it would mean a lot to me I

1020
00:43:27,146 --> 00:43:28,926
like getting to know each of you when I

1021
00:43:28,926 --> 00:43:30,766
get a so But I know that many of you are

1022
00:43:30,766 --> 00:43:32,078
so busy these days doing great work around

1023
00:43:32,078 --> 00:43:34,174
the world So thank you for taking the time

1024
00:43:34,174 --> 00:43:36,042
to listeners to this conversation to hear

1025
00:43:36,042 --> 00:43:37,098
from Nijay and his perspective.And I just

1026
00:43:37,098 --> 00:43:39,006
want to say as always take care of

1027
00:43:39,006 --> 00:43:40,798
yourself because you matter And as always

1028
00:43:40,798 --> 00:43:41,774
keep making a difference wherever you are

1029
00:43:41,774 --> 00:43:42,446
undefined undefined undefined undefined

1030
00:43:42,446 --> 00:43:43,198
undefined undefined undefined undefined

1031
00:43:43,198 --> 00:43:43,678
undefined undefined undefined undefined

1032
00:43:43,678 --> 00:43:44,254
undefined undefined undefined undefined

1033
00:43:44,254 --> 00:43:44,798
undefined undefined undefined undefined

1034
00:43:44,798 --> 00:43:45,366
undefined undefined undefined undefined

1035
00:43:45,366 --> 00:43:47,286
undefined undefined undefined undefined

1036
00:43:47,286 --> 00:43:47,878
undefined undefined undefined undefined

1037
00:43:47,878 --> 00:43:48,626
undefined undefined undefined undefined

1038
00:43:48,626 --> 00:43:49,574
undefined undefined undefined undefined

1039
00:43:49,574 --> 00:43:50,502
undefined undefined undefined undefined

1040
00:43:50,502 --> 00:43:51,206
undefined undefined undefined undefined

1041
00:43:51,206 --> 00:43:51,926
undefined undefined undefined undefined

1042
00:43:51,926 --> 00:43:53,350
undefined undefined undefined undefined

1043
00:43:53,350 --> 00:43:54,706
undefined undefined undefined undefined

1044
00:43:54,706 --> 00:43:56,374
undefined undefined undefined undefined

1045
00:43:56,374 --> 00:43:57,046
undefined undefined undefined undefined

1046
00:43:57,046 --> 00:43:58,214
undefined undefined undefined undefined

1047
00:43:58,214 --> 00:43:59,382
undefined undefined undefined undefined

1048
00:43:59,382 --> 00:44:00,806
undefined undefined undefined undefined

1049
00:44:00,806 --> 00:44:01,638
undefined undefined undefined undefined

1050
00:44:01,638 --> 00:44:02,580
undefined undefined undefined undefined