A podcast for those who are different and want to make a difference.
April 3, 2024

Elaine Lin Hering on Overcoming Barriers to Speaking Up: A Framework for Leaders

Elaine Lin Hering on Overcoming Barriers to Speaking Up: A Framework for Leaders

Unlearning silence isn't just about finding your voice; it's about recognizing the ways we've all been complicit in silencing others. And the surprising insights from a Harvard lecturer will have you rethinking the impact of silence in your world. Join the conversation to uncover the hidden ways we contribute to silence and discover how to foster inclusive communication. It's time to unlearn the silence that holds us back. Stay tuned for the unexpected wisdom that will leave you reevaluating your role in creating a more inclusive world. Our special guest is Elaine Lin Hering.

Unlearning silence isn't just about finding your voice; it's about recognizing the ways we've all been complicit in silencing others. And the surprising insights from a Harvard lecturer will have you rethinking the impact of silence in your world. Join the conversation to uncover the hidden ways we contribute to silence and discover how to foster inclusive communication. It's time to unlearn the silence that holds us back. Stay tuned for the unexpected wisdom that will leave you reevaluating your role in creating a more inclusive world.

 

My special guest is Elaine Lin Hering.

 

Elaine Lin Hering is a renowned facilitator, speaker, and writer with extensive experience in communication, collaboration, and conflict management. Drawing from her background as a former managing partner of Triad Consulting Group and a lecturer at Harvard Law School, Elaine's expertise spans across various industries and continents, working with corporate, government, and nonprofit clients. Her personal journey as an immigrant from Taiwan to the United States adds a unique perspective to her work, diving deep into the impact of cultural differences on communication and strategies for inclusive leadership. With her compelling insights and vulnerability, Elaine's book, Unlearning Silence: How to Speak Your Mind, Unleash Talent, and Live More Fully, resonates with individuals seeking to navigate the complexities of silence and voice in personal and professional growth.

 

In what ways are the often very well-intentioned people around me, such as my manager, who in their heart of hearts wants to support me, actually silencing me? - Elaine Lin Hering

 

In this episode, you will be able to:

  • Embrace the power of inclusive communication and unlearn silence in professional environments.
  • Enhance your communication and collaboration skills to foster a more inclusive work environment.
  • Explore the impact of cultural differences on communication and how it influences team dynamics.
  • Discover effective strategies for inclusive leadership and building stronger team dynamics.
  • Understand the role of silence in personal and professional growth, and how it can positively impact your workplace interactions.
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Embrace the Power of Inclusive Communication

Inclusive communication in professional environments is essential for fostering a sense of belonging and diversity. By embracing diverse voices and perspectives, teams can collaborate more effectively and achieve better results. Creating a space where everyone feels heard and valued cultivates a positive work culture and promotes innovation.

 

The resources mentioned in this episode are:

  • Join the Difference Maker Community at www.patreon.com/aworldofdifference to access exclusive episodes and support the show for as little as $5 a month.
  • Follow Lori Adams-Brown on Twitter @loriadbr and on Instagram @loriadamsbrown to stay connected and share your suggestions for future guests on the show.
  • Check out Elaine Lin Hering's book Unlearning How to Speak Your Mind, Unleash Talent, and Live More Fully to gain deeper insights into unlearning silence and fostering a more inclusive environment.
  • Consider reaching out to Lori Adams-Brown to share your stories and experiences, as well as to suggest individuals who are making a difference and could be featured on the podcast.
  • Explore the wisdom and advice shared by Elaine Lin Hering in the exclusive episode available in the Difference Maker Community, where she provides insights on self-care, resilience, and navigating challenging spaces.
  •  

Being explicit doesn't mean that you have to be direct. Being explicit means, 'Oh, read the air. That's what is happening here. Can we name it?' - Elaine Lin Hering

 

Explore Impact of Cultural Differences

Understanding the impact of cultural differences on communication is crucial for creating inclusive work environments. By acknowledging and respecting diverse cultural backgrounds, teams can leverage unique perspectives and insights to drive innovation. Embracing cultural diversity fosters mutual understanding, strengthens relationships, and promotes a more inclusive and harmonious workplace.

 

The key moments in this episode are:

00:00:02 - Introduction to Unlearning Silence

 

00:01:50 - Elaine's Background and Immigrant Experience

 

00:05:02 - Defining Silence

 

08:03 - Internalized Messages and Reflective Habits

 

00:13:58 - Understanding Voice

 

00:15:03 - Understanding Different Communication Styles

 

00:17:34 - Impact of Organizational Silence

 

00:20:52 - The Real Cost of Speaking Up

 

00:23:59 - Encouraging Voice at the Table

 

00:28:57 - Unlearning Silence

 

00:29:58 - Unlearning Silence

 

00:31:14 - Three Levers of Voice

 

00:34:30 - Cross-Cultural Communication

 

00:39:38 - Role of Silence

 

00:45:25 - The Power of Unlearning

 

00:46:29 - The Impact of Silence

 

00:48:04 - Personal Stories of Silencing

 

00:49:49 - Co-Creating the Podcast

 

00:52:26 - Self-Compassion and Making a Difference

 

The question is not, am I a good or bad person for doing that, but am I having the impact that I want? Am I aligned in how I think I'm showing up and how I'm actually showing up? - Elaine Lin Hering

 

Enhance Communication and Collaboration Skills

Improving communication and collaboration skills is key to overcoming challenges related to silence and voice in the workplace. By honing these skills, individuals can navigate cultural differences, build stronger relationships, and work together more productively. Effective communication lays the foundation for successful teamwork and organizational growth.

 

Timestamped summary of this episode:

00:00:02 - Introduction to Unlearning Silence

Lori introduces the podcast and guest Elaine Lynn Herring, highlighting her impactful book "Unlearning How to Speak Your Mind, Unleash Talent, and Live More Fully". Elaine's personal background and professional experience are mentioned, setting the stage for the conversation.

 

00:01:50 - Elaine's Background and Immigrant Experience

Elaine shares her immigrant background from Taiwan to the United States, highlighting the cultural and societal influences that shaped her relationship with silence. The impact of patriarchal culture and the Christian church on her upbringing is discussed.

 

00:05:02 - Defining Silence

Elaine provides a nuanced definition of silence, distinguishing between the value of reflective silence and the detrimental impact of silencing oneself in communication and relationships. The societal, cultural, and personal factors contributing to silence are explored.

 

08:03 - Internalized Messages and Reflective Habits

Elaine reflects on the messages and reflective habits she internalized about speaking and being heard, both personally and professionally. The challenges of navigating individualistic and collectivist societies, as well as the impact of cultural, gender, and societal norms on voice and silence, are discussed.

 

00:13:58 - Understanding Voice

Elaine emphasizes that voice extends beyond verbal communication, encompassing how individuals move through the world and express their unique perspectives. The importance of embracing diverse communication styles and perspectives for fostering innovation and inclusivity in teams and organizations is highlighted.

 

00:15:03 - Understanding Different Communication Styles

Elaine discusses how individuals process information differently and how communication flows can be designed to accommodate different styles, allowing for all voices to be heard.

 

00:17:34 - Impact of Organizational Silence

Elaine shares her experience of feeling silenced in a previous hostile work environment and discusses the societal and systemic factors that contribute to organizational silence.

 

00:20:52 - The Real Cost of Speaking Up

Elaine delves into the real costs of speaking up, including the impact on mental and emotional health, and the societal phenomena of collective silence.

 

00:23:59 - Encouraging Voice at the Table

Elaine offers practical strategies for managers and parents to encourage people to bring their voices to the table, including designing communication patterns, using standard questions, and listening across differences.

 

00:28:57 - Unlearning Silence

Elaine emphasizes the importance of being cognizant of the role that silence plays in our interactions, and the ongoing journey of unlearning silence in order to create space for all voices to be heard.

 

00:29:58 - Unlearning Silence

Elaine and Lori discuss the importance of unlearning silence and recognize the value of speaking up. They emphasize the need for individuals to be aware of their unique perspectives and to contribute to substance, relationship, and process in conversations.

 

00:31:14 - Three Levers of Voice

Elaine explains the concept of the three levers of voice, which are substance, relationship, and process. She highlights the impact of these levers on communication patterns and the importance of recognizing different perspectives in discussions.

 

00:34:30 - Cross-Cultural Communication

Elaine and Lori delve into the topic of cross-cultural communication, referencing Erin Meyer's "The Culture Map." They discuss the differences in communication styles across cultures and the need to explicitly address and understand these differences in diverse settings.

 

00:39:38 - Role of Silence

Elaine offers a call to action for individuals in positions of power to observe the role of silence in their teams. She emphasizes the importance of being neutral and honest in assessing the impact of silence and encourages readers to read her book for further guidance on recognizing and addressing silence in their environments.

 

00:45:25 - The Power of Unlearning

Lori talks about how much she learned from Elaine's book, emphasizing the title "unlearning" as a process. She expresses excitement for the journey of unlearning and belonging.

 

00:46:29 - The Impact of Silence

Lori reflects on the impact of silence in different spaces, including faith communities, corporate environments, and journalism. She highlights the importance of knowing when to speak and when to be silent.

 

00:48:04 - Personal Stories of Silencing

Lori shares how listeners have reached out to her with their stories of being silenced in their workplaces or faith communities. She expresses gratitude for being a space where they can share their experiences.

 

00:49:49 - Co-Creating the Podcast

Lori encourages listeners to reach out to her with suggestions for guests and expresses the impact of the community in deepening the conversations. She also invites listeners to join the difference maker community on Patreon.

 

00:52:26 - Self-Compassion and Making a Difference

Lori ends the podcast with a message of self-compassion and kindness, emphasizing the importance of each person's voice and the value they bring to the world. She encourages listeners to keep making a difference.

 

 

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Keep making a difference wherever you are!

Lori Adams-Brown, Host & Executive Producer

A World of Difference Podcast

Transcript
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Welcome to the a World of Difference

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podcast. I'm Lori Adams Brown, and this is

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a podcast for those who are different and

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want to make a difference. Today we have

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an author on the show who has released a

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book called unlearning how to speak your

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mind, unleash talent, and live more fully.

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It's by Elaine Lin Hering and I'm so

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excited to have her on the show today

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because her book has been so impactful for

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me. I have been reading it on a recent

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airplane ride for one of the trips I was

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making for work, and I just could not put

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it down. Elaine, her writing is so

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compelling. She's written this very

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thoughtful book about her own voice, what

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it means to silence and unlearn and

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continue the process of unlearning silence

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that we have heard in so many spaces. So

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Elaine is a facilitator, a speaker, and a

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writer. She works with organizations and

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individuals to build skills in

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communication, collaboration, and conflict

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management. In her career, Elaine has

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worked on six continents and with a wide

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range of corporate, government, and

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nonprofit clients. So she is our people.

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She has trained mental health

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professionals, political officials,

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religious communities, and leaders at

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companies including American Express,

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Capital one, Google, Nike, Novartis,

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Shell, Pixar, and the Red Cross. Elaine is

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a former managing partner of Triad

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Consulting Group and a lecturer at Harvard

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Law School, specializing in dispute

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resolution, mediation and negotiation. She

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is so intelligent. She is really a genius

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at writing about this concept of voice and

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unlearning silence because she brings in

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her own personal narrative and her own

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vulnerability, but also really readily

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admits that even in her own life, there

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are ways that she has become aware that

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she is silencing others even in the midst

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of having been silenced herself. She also

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brings in her whole perspective as someone

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who immigrated here from Taiwan. Her

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family came to Taiwan, from Taiwan to the

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United States, and just that whole

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immigrant experience and how often we see

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silencing happen in those communities. And

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it's just this book is. I cannot recommend

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it more. So we're gonna unpack it today.

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I'm so excited to have on the show, Elaine

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Lin Hering Well, welcome, Elaine, to the

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World of Difference podcast. I'm so

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excited to dig into this book and get to

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know you a little bit better today. But,

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yeah, welcome over there in Berkeley.

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Thanks so much for having me. Of course,

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yes, I've really enjoyed reading your

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book, which I read on an airplane recently

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on one of my travels, unlearning silence,

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how to speak your mind, unleash talent and

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live more fully. This book was just so

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full of insight and also helped me realize

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some things about myself that I think that

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anyone reading it would. And so I love how

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you very vulnerably dig into this for

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yourself. But I always like to here on the

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podcast, start with questions to help us

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get a little bit more information about

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who you are and your background. And so I

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know that you have a bit of Taiwan in your

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background. I recently got back from

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Taiwan. Actually, one of my direct reports

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is in Taiwan. I was onboarding her there,

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and she's wonderful. But I'd love to know

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a little bit about the cultures and places

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that formed you as we kind of get started

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on this interview with you. Absolutely. I

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am the youngest daughter of an immigrant

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family from Taiwan to the United States.

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So I was born in Taiwan, but basically

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grew up in California. That maybe explains

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why I wrote a book about silence. I also

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grew up in the christian church, and a lot

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of the messages were distilled to me as

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turn the other cheek, be the bigger

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person. Right? So you have all these

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threads of immigrating, trying to

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assimilate into a country so that you

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foster and experience a sense of belonging

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as the youngest daughter against a

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patriarchal culture. I am less than my

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brother because boys, men are prized more,

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traditionally speaking. And I try to be

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clear about what happened later in life

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and in the book. And then certainly a lot

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of that. Culture is just anytime you are

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asking a question, pushing back, even

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having a difference of opinion to people

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who are older than you, you are

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disrespectful. And so that, to me, created

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a really strong relationship with silence

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of to be respectful, to be a good person,

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to be kind means to bite your tongue and

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not say anything. And, of course, I

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watched Bambi when I was five, and Bambi

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said, if you don't have anything nice to

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say, say nothing at all. And I took that

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to heart. And how many of us do? And we'll

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get into the rest of it? Yes, absolutely.

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This is something I know that our

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audience, both in the west and in Asia,

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who've had any sort of cross cultural

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experience going back and forth between

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those two locations will resonate with or

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just anyone who's been raised in a

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collectivist society and then also kind of

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like, landed in an individualistic

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society, kind of how we are here in the

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US. But, you know, there are so many

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beautiful things about both cultures, and

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yet this whole concept of silence is sort

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of very nuanced in all of these places and

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spaces. And when you bring in this

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intersectionality of just the christian

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church and growing up there and so much to

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unpack there, which we do a lot on this

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podcast as well. There's so many voices

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saying, you know, and encouraging your

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silence. But I think that, you know, my

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first really question for you after this

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is, what is silence? How would you

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describe it? Yeah, the lawyer in me is

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really happy that you asked that because I

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love a good definition of terms,

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particularly because there is such value

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to certain types of silence. Right. All

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meditation, key religions of the world,

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that pause between stimulus and response.

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We need more of that silence to get to

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slow thinking, to reflective thinking, and

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many of us could use more of that in the

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world. But the silence that I'm talking

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about here and wanting us to collectively

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unlearn is when there's not enough space

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in the conversation or in the room or in

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the relationship for who you are, for your

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thoughts, preferences, needs, goals, hopes

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and concerns. It's when you're not invited

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to the meeting and you didn't think you

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could ask. It's when you self censored and

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didn't actually say what you thought

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because the voices in your head already

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told you it's not worth it or you're going

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to get made fun of. And all of that means

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that we need to silence ourselves, both

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what we think, but particularly as women

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or anyone who carries a subordinated

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identity, meaning you're not part of the

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dominant culture, whatever context you're

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in, it means that your own needs aren't

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getting met. And we walk around as shells

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of the people that we could be. That's not

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even to start to think about the

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difference that we could make if we were

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actually free to be the people that we are

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or were meant to be. Yeah, it's a lot to

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consider in all of the places and spaces

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where we are, whether it's work,

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community, family, faith based spaces, you

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know, politics, government, all of it is

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so intertwined with all of this. I know. I

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underline, I underline so many parts of

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your book that just, you know, I would

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read it and I would say, oh, my gosh, and

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I'd have to sit there and reflect on it

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for a little bit because it just, it makes

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you think about a lot of existential

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questions about just how we live and why

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and why we do certain things. But like

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early on in the book, on page five, you

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say, what messages have you internalized

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about who gets to speak and be heard and

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whose voice matters? What reflective

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habits have you developed around using

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your own voice or supporting others

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voices? And, yeah, I just, as you thought

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through some of those things for yourself.

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How has that played out in your own life

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when you consider those questions? Yeah, I

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think origin stories are always helpful.

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So, you know, I, growing up as an

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immigrant in the United States, was often

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told in this individualistic society,

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speak up, speak up, speak up. And then,

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yet when I did, I was too loud, I was

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wrong. I was then too quiet, and you sort

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of can't ever get it right. And really

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thought, you know, then there's the

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professional aspect of my life, where I

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spent more than a decade teaching skills

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for negotiation. Difficult conversations,

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giving and receiving feedback across

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industries, across continents. And despite

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those tools and frameworks that my

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colleagues at the Harvard negotiation

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project created being sound, some people

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still wouldn't negotiate or have the

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difficult conversations, give and receive

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feedback. And I started to wonder, why is

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that? And to me, the missing piece really

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is silence. What role does silence play on

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our teams? In what ways have I

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internalized those messages over time such

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that saying, you know, taking a nike

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approach to say, just do it, just speak

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up, doesn't actually work. Right. We have

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these voices in our heads that are

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screaming, but I can't. People like me

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don't do that. Or I've had really negative

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lived experiences from speaking up. So

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there's a cognitive dissonance to what

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you're telling me. Best practice is to my

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own lived experience, and then what am I

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supposed to do? And to me, the problem of

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whether you get heard, whether you have an

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impact, whether you make a world of

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difference, has that that problem has been

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misdiagnosed. Right? A lot of times, the

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problem statement has been presented as if

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you're not being heard. You need to have

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more courage. You need to have more

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confidence. If you could speak up louder,

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more clearly, use fix yourself, then you

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would get heard. Versus in what ways have

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I learned silence? There's certainly

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personal responsibility and accountability

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of what I'm doing, whether or not I'm

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sharing my thoughts and my gifts. But none

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of us live and exist in isolation. So

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there's also the question of, in what ways

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are the often very well intentioned people

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around me, my manager, who in their heart

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of hearts wants to support me, is actually

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silencing me. And of course, we all exist

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in the backdrop of systems. So in what

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ways is silence baked into the policies

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and practices that affect all of us? So

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many of us are tired of talking about

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return to office, you know, post COVID.

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And I'd argue that the reason that that

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conversation lingered on so long is still

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having gnarly tentacles right now is

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because that is an example of one policy

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that supports certain people who have easy

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commutes, who are used to leading in

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person, who, for whom it is familiar,

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comfortable, and advantageous to go to the

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office. And it silences the people who

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benefit from flexibility. And so to take a

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more accurate look at the situation is, in

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what ways do I silence myself? In what

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ways do I silence the people around me,

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not because I intend to or because I'm a

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bad person, but because I'm human. In what

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ways is silence baked into the systems

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we're all part of? That starts to unlock

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how we can actually be seen, known, and

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heard. At work, that translates into

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unleashing talent, the best ideas coming

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forward, not just the loudest ones. And at

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home and in our interpersonal

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relationships, that is, how can we love

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each other better? Yeah, how can we love

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each other better? Wow, that's just. We're

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just gonna blow this conversation big. We

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are just like, wow. I know, right? I think

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ultimately, allowing one to have space to

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bring them their ideas, their thoughts,

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however raw or uncomfortable, where we

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suspend judgment and really listen is a

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very loving act. And, you know, I do work

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for a tech company here in Silicon Valley,

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where I go around training globally,

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which, you know, took me to Taiwan

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recently and is taking me to the UK very

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soon again. And I, you know, with all the

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cultures I interact with in this

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workspace, silencing happens, but also

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allowing people to speak happens, and you

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can see the difference in just people's

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body. So, like, one of the things I train

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on is this, and you're probably aware of

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it, but, like, Doctor Albert Mehrahbian

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did this study back in the 1970s. It's

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sort of a seminal study on communication.

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And really, only 7% of how we communicate

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is words. And there's about, like, 38 ish,

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33% in there, depending on tone and

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inflection, which is also important to

305
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communicate things. But really, it's that

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body language, that 55%, whatever language

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we speak, right? And so there's so much

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about bringing out someone's voice that

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means paying attention to, like, how their

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body is responding, and that's a lot of

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things to pay attention to. For a manager

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in a workspace that's very busy. And the

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way that we work in the United States or

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even when I lived in Singapore, which is a

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very, very busy, fast moving society, it's

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hard to pay attention to all those things

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and be the kind of leader or manager that

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would bring out someone in this way. So I

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think that, you know, next I would just

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love to unpack, because I think people

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don't really even understand this. Like,

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how would you describe voice? Like, what

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is voice? Yeah. Voice is not just the

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words that we say in a meeting. Voice is

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how we move through the world. And if we

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go back to us, each being human, we're all

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wired differently. So logically, it would

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make sense that we would communicate in

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different ways, that we would care about

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different things. And of course, all the

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research shows that diverse teams, if you

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can harness that diverse perspective,

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outperform homogenous teams. The question

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is, are we implicitly, unconsciously,

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forcing everybody to look and sound the

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same in order to get heard? And this is

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one of the primary ways that well

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intentioned leaders end up silencing the

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people they lead. If the prerequisite for

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being heard is that you have to speak, at

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least in corporate America, in three

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succinct bullet points, no ums, with just

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the right amount of emotion to show that

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you care, but not too much emotion, that

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you lose credibility. We get a very narrow

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slice of our employee population who is

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wired in that way. So one way that we are

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wired differently is some people process

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information best by talking out loud.

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Right, real time processing. And

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oftentimes they do a lot of talking in the

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meetings. Then there are post processors,

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and I don't know how many of our listeners

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are like that. I certainly am wired that

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way. In the meeting, you can't quite

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figure out what to say, but 20 minutes

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later you're like, oh, that's what I

358
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wanted to say. Right. And that often in

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our workplaces is coded as weakness rather

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than wiring. And to put those two ideas

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together, what do we do about it? Well, we

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design our communication flows, how we

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communicate, rather than default to the

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way that things have always been done. If

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someone on my team is a post processor,

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and statistically speaking, there are

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members of your team, wouldn't we want

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their ideas in the mix? And that can look

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like in a meeting. You know, the real time

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processors are processing great. We sort

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of get to what we think is going to be a

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decision. And if we planned ahead, to say,

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great, everybody sleep on it. And as

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you're post processing, if things come up,

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00:16:16,902 --> 00:16:19,174
put it in slack or put it on this email

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thread, right. Being really specific about

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the channel to take the guesswork out of,

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well, you know, do I raise something? Am I

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going to look like I'm a flip flopper? You

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00:16:30,678 --> 00:16:32,654
know, all of these things being really

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clear about this is we are actively

382
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designing for differences of wiring and

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communication in the way that we work

384
00:16:42,698 --> 00:16:45,970
together so that the people who type, who

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communicate more effectively by typing

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than talking, are as equally represented.

387
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And it's not seen as a second back seat

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conversation where you sort of need to

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jump into the front seat. It's just how we

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work together and that reducing the

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barrier to entry is one way that we can

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support voice showing up differently and

393
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also allowing those thoughts into the

394
00:17:15,204 --> 00:17:18,440
conversation. So good. So much to unpack

395
00:17:18,440 --> 00:17:20,672
there, and so many great, just insights

396
00:17:20,672 --> 00:17:23,616
that you're giving us. One thing that I

397
00:17:23,616 --> 00:17:25,384
noticed, and I've noticed in a previous

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workplace in particular, I worked in a

399
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very hostile work environment at one point

400
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where a lot of people ended up with NDAs.

401
00:17:31,564 --> 00:17:33,984
And, you know, kind of what you're saying

402
00:17:33,984 --> 00:17:37,096
is, I. I asked a question, and questions

403
00:17:37,096 --> 00:17:38,552
weren't welcome. I didn't realize, you

404
00:17:38,552 --> 00:17:39,928
know, because you kind of. There's these

405
00:17:39,928 --> 00:17:42,648
unwritten rules that it looks very

406
00:17:42,648 --> 00:17:45,056
diverse. You know, there was a diversity,

407
00:17:45,056 --> 00:17:46,976
somewhat of people on staff, not as much

408
00:17:46,976 --> 00:17:48,712
diversity of women, but somewhere. And

409
00:17:48,712 --> 00:17:50,360
then there were asian american women who

410
00:17:50,360 --> 00:17:52,056
had been second, you know, first or second

411
00:17:52,056 --> 00:17:53,568
generation immigrants here in the US. And,

412
00:17:53,568 --> 00:17:54,896
you know, there's. You understand that

413
00:17:54,896 --> 00:17:57,648
dynamic very well, but it was sort of

414
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like, oh, these people are here, and they

415
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do things for us, but we don't really

416
00:18:01,224 --> 00:18:03,496
welcome their voice in every way. And I

417
00:18:03,496 --> 00:18:05,000
didn't realize those kind of unwritten

418
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rules were there until I kind of, you

419
00:18:06,504 --> 00:18:08,040
know, asked a question. And then I learned

420
00:18:08,040 --> 00:18:10,684
really quick that was not okay. But

421
00:18:10,684 --> 00:18:14,776
anyway, a lot of the conversation in that

422
00:18:14,776 --> 00:18:16,680
space, I realized, is that people just

423
00:18:16,680 --> 00:18:19,672
were completely unaware of silencing, of

424
00:18:19,672 --> 00:18:21,728
the dynamics of men, women, of these

425
00:18:21,728 --> 00:18:23,824
certain things. And so I guess the

426
00:18:23,824 --> 00:18:24,960
question is, you know, we have all these

427
00:18:24,960 --> 00:18:27,152
families of origin, all of our filters,

428
00:18:27,152 --> 00:18:29,320
and our brains are unique to us based. I

429
00:18:29,320 --> 00:18:32,104
train on this, too. It's like we go

430
00:18:32,104 --> 00:18:34,312
through our day hearing everything through

431
00:18:34,312 --> 00:18:35,992
our own unique filter. It's as unique as

432
00:18:35,992 --> 00:18:39,164
our fingerprint. Right. But how do we

433
00:18:39,164 --> 00:18:41,284
learn silence typically throughout our

434
00:18:41,284 --> 00:18:43,308
lives? How does that really even take

435
00:18:43,308 --> 00:18:45,028
place? Yeah, certainly. And this is

436
00:18:45,028 --> 00:18:46,500
chapter one of the book, the silence.

437
00:18:46,500 --> 00:18:49,420
We've learned one way is in our families

438
00:18:49,420 --> 00:18:53,692
of origin. Another way is in our education

439
00:18:53,692 --> 00:18:56,028
systems, frankly. And this is where we are

440
00:18:56,028 --> 00:18:58,420
all tied into a systemic challenge. If we

441
00:18:58,420 --> 00:19:01,220
think about public schools, funding is

442
00:19:01,220 --> 00:19:02,956
linked to performance, so we're teaching

443
00:19:02,956 --> 00:19:05,852
to the tests, then we start to silence

444
00:19:05,852 --> 00:19:07,372
critical thinking and creativity. And

445
00:19:07,372 --> 00:19:10,788
there's a very narrow value and

446
00:19:10,788 --> 00:19:12,900
perspective of what voice is. And because

447
00:19:12,900 --> 00:19:15,804
teachers are underpaid and, you know, the

448
00:19:15,804 --> 00:19:18,028
teacher to student ratio, it starts to get

449
00:19:18,028 --> 00:19:21,068
really complex really quickly. But we also

450
00:19:21,068 --> 00:19:24,748
learn silence in school, in regurgitating

451
00:19:24,748 --> 00:19:26,660
thoughts rather than thinking critically,

452
00:19:26,660 --> 00:19:28,804
or whether we were rewarded for raising

453
00:19:28,804 --> 00:19:31,650
our hand, because then you're disruptive

454
00:19:31,650 --> 00:19:34,442
then in the workplace. I mean, the silence

455
00:19:34,442 --> 00:19:36,890
is, as you said, I asked a question

456
00:19:36,890 --> 00:19:38,258
because I thought that's what our values

457
00:19:38,258 --> 00:19:40,762
on the wall say. But clearly, that's not

458
00:19:40,762 --> 00:19:45,162
what we actually do here. And we get the

459
00:19:45,162 --> 00:19:46,858
phenomenon, collective phenomenon, of

460
00:19:46,858 --> 00:19:49,298
saying nothing, which is the definition of

461
00:19:49,298 --> 00:19:51,938
organizational silence and employee

462
00:19:51,938 --> 00:19:54,050
silence, where we each do the calculation

463
00:19:54,050 --> 00:19:57,814
of, oh, it's not worth it to say something

464
00:19:57,814 --> 00:20:01,274
here, but it's also, what do we talk about

465
00:20:01,274 --> 00:20:04,106
in society? The hash metoo movement came

466
00:20:04,106 --> 00:20:06,706
about because someone said this actually

467
00:20:06,706 --> 00:20:09,018
happened, and everyone else said, oh, me

468
00:20:09,018 --> 00:20:12,082
too. But if we look at how people who

469
00:20:12,082 --> 00:20:15,146
report abuse or harassment get dragged

470
00:20:15,146 --> 00:20:17,490
through the mud, their reputations

471
00:20:17,490 --> 00:20:19,778
damaged, or whistleblowers, and the

472
00:20:19,778 --> 00:20:22,602
significant impact on mental health,

473
00:20:22,602 --> 00:20:25,160
emotional health, relational health, the

474
00:20:25,160 --> 00:20:27,904
whistleblower for Boeing, it seems like,

475
00:20:27,904 --> 00:20:33,360
just took his life. And that is so real.

476
00:20:33,360 --> 00:20:36,128
And the chapter three of the book is when

477
00:20:36,128 --> 00:20:38,616
silence makes sense, because the costs to

478
00:20:38,616 --> 00:20:41,224
speaking up are real. There is a utility

479
00:20:41,224 --> 00:20:44,344
to silence, to keep my job, to keep my

480
00:20:44,344 --> 00:20:48,440
seat at the table, to pay my bills. But

481
00:20:48,440 --> 00:20:51,672
this is how we learn silence individually

482
00:20:51,672 --> 00:20:53,536
and then collectively. You know, if we're

483
00:20:53,536 --> 00:20:55,384
new to an organization or more junior,

484
00:20:55,384 --> 00:20:57,376
we're looking around, as you mentioned, to

485
00:20:57,376 --> 00:21:00,488
say, how do things work around here? And

486
00:21:00,488 --> 00:21:04,472
if I don't see leadership in honest,

487
00:21:04,472 --> 00:21:07,328
candid dialogue and discussion, then I

488
00:21:07,328 --> 00:21:09,320
very naturally draw the conclusion, we

489
00:21:09,320 --> 00:21:11,216
don't talk about those things here. And

490
00:21:11,216 --> 00:21:13,144
that leads to groupthink, and that leads

491
00:21:13,144 --> 00:21:15,240
to basically every corporate scandal of

492
00:21:15,240 --> 00:21:19,760
the last couple centuries, as well as

493
00:21:19,760 --> 00:21:22,202
impacts on talent, engagement, and

494
00:21:22,202 --> 00:21:24,806
retention. Right? Is this somewhere that I

495
00:21:24,806 --> 00:21:29,006
can actually lend my gifts and talents, or

496
00:21:29,006 --> 00:21:31,990
am I a cog in a wheel? Am I valued here

497
00:21:31,990 --> 00:21:34,006
for my humanity, or am I valued here for

498
00:21:34,006 --> 00:21:36,926
my utility? If the job is actually to just

499
00:21:36,926 --> 00:21:40,110
do the role, which sometimes it is, or we

500
00:21:40,110 --> 00:21:41,950
get that sense from our managers, then

501
00:21:41,950 --> 00:21:44,734
where is there room for me? And of course,

502
00:21:44,734 --> 00:21:47,686
life is messy. The world right now around

503
00:21:47,686 --> 00:21:50,158
us is messy. Everything we're carrying in

504
00:21:50,158 --> 00:21:51,966
interpersonal relationships and family

505
00:21:51,966 --> 00:21:54,986
dynamics is messy. And so I can understand

506
00:21:54,986 --> 00:21:58,082
from a producing widgets perspective,

507
00:21:58,082 --> 00:21:59,850
right, leave all that at the door. Come

508
00:21:59,850 --> 00:22:02,770
in, do your job, get paid. It's a

509
00:22:02,770 --> 00:22:04,498
transaction. Except we as human beings,

510
00:22:04,498 --> 00:22:07,634
aren't wired that way. And also

511
00:22:07,634 --> 00:22:09,106
difference, having a difference of opinion

512
00:22:09,106 --> 00:22:12,266
is the core of innovation, and being heard

513
00:22:12,266 --> 00:22:15,530
is the core of collaboration. So it takes

514
00:22:15,530 --> 00:22:18,642
us back to, well, what do I own right. In

515
00:22:18,642 --> 00:22:20,962
what ways am I editing myself, holding

516
00:22:20,962 --> 00:22:23,826
back? And am I choosing that silence? Or

517
00:22:23,826 --> 00:22:26,306
is silence the only choice for me, that to

518
00:22:26,306 --> 00:22:30,306
me, that agency is a real difference? And

519
00:22:30,306 --> 00:22:33,106
then what can we each do to create that

520
00:22:33,106 --> 00:22:38,546
space for voice? Because having someone

521
00:22:38,546 --> 00:22:40,946
else disrupt the bias in the conversation

522
00:22:40,946 --> 00:22:43,306
or say, hold on, I want to hear what Lori

523
00:22:43,306 --> 00:22:47,050
has to say. Let her finish. That creates

524
00:22:47,050 --> 00:22:48,562
an environment. If we're all doing that

525
00:22:48,562 --> 00:22:51,474
for each other, regardless of our

526
00:22:51,474 --> 00:22:52,922
positionality, we're creating a really

527
00:22:52,922 --> 00:22:55,152
different team dynamic than if Lori's on

528
00:22:55,152 --> 00:22:58,624
her own and I'm on my own. And you know

529
00:22:58,624 --> 00:23:00,872
what? None of us have energy to fight any

530
00:23:00,872 --> 00:23:02,280
of these battles. So we're just going to

531
00:23:02,280 --> 00:23:08,872
stay silent. Yeah, I think that so many

532
00:23:08,872 --> 00:23:12,632
people listening are, you know, probably

533
00:23:12,632 --> 00:23:14,640
having memories in their minds right now

534
00:23:14,640 --> 00:23:16,424
of situations that you're reminding them

535
00:23:16,424 --> 00:23:18,976
of. And, you know, I think that a question

536
00:23:18,976 --> 00:23:22,014
for a lot of us out there who are managers

537
00:23:22,014 --> 00:23:23,926
or, you know, have any sort of direct

538
00:23:23,926 --> 00:23:25,838
reports in our work, whether it's

539
00:23:25,838 --> 00:23:28,114
volunteer driven or, you know, in our

540
00:23:28,114 --> 00:23:30,302
workplace or even just parents of

541
00:23:30,302 --> 00:23:31,630
children, you know, we can definitely

542
00:23:31,630 --> 00:23:34,206
silence our children because of all the

543
00:23:34,206 --> 00:23:35,278
reasons, you know, we might be tired at

544
00:23:35,278 --> 00:23:37,198
the end of a work day, or it might be the

545
00:23:37,198 --> 00:23:39,110
child is in that why phase, and it's hard

546
00:23:39,110 --> 00:23:41,870
to kind of answer those questions. Or

547
00:23:41,870 --> 00:23:43,382
they're teenagers and they say things that

548
00:23:43,382 --> 00:23:46,118
are just like, wow, they're trying to

549
00:23:46,118 --> 00:23:47,718
explore, and it feels scary and

550
00:23:47,718 --> 00:23:49,142
uncomfortable. And so there's a lot of,

551
00:23:49,142 --> 00:23:51,486
you know, ways we could diminish the

552
00:23:51,486 --> 00:23:53,302
voices of those around us. But I guess the

553
00:23:53,302 --> 00:23:55,102
question I'm wanting to hear from you now

554
00:23:55,102 --> 00:23:58,174
is, what are ways we can sort of help

555
00:23:58,174 --> 00:23:59,766
people bring their voice to the table? And

556
00:23:59,766 --> 00:24:03,006
there are these power dynamics that exist

557
00:24:03,006 --> 00:24:05,966
as a manager, as a parent, that even if

558
00:24:05,966 --> 00:24:07,606
you say, hey, I want to hear your opinion,

559
00:24:07,606 --> 00:24:09,958
that may not be the best. And, you know,

560
00:24:09,958 --> 00:24:11,862
it may not produce the outcome we want. It

561
00:24:11,862 --> 00:24:15,222
still may. There may be fear in the

562
00:24:15,222 --> 00:24:16,742
dynamic where people wouldn't share. So

563
00:24:16,742 --> 00:24:18,558
what are some things we could do to help

564
00:24:18,558 --> 00:24:20,166
people really bring their voice to the

565
00:24:20,166 --> 00:24:23,310
table? Yeah, absolutely. So designing our

566
00:24:23,310 --> 00:24:24,662
communication patterns like we talked

567
00:24:24,662 --> 00:24:27,822
about earlier, and that literally is a

568
00:24:27,822 --> 00:24:31,582
32nd conversation, or pop that question in

569
00:24:31,582 --> 00:24:33,790
slack for post processors, and you can

570
00:24:33,790 --> 00:24:36,750
communicate about it asynchronously. What

571
00:24:36,750 --> 00:24:38,910
makes it easiest for you to share your

572
00:24:38,910 --> 00:24:41,462
thoughts and feelings? Because I care and

573
00:24:41,462 --> 00:24:43,446
want to know or whatever is appropriate

574
00:24:43,446 --> 00:24:46,334
for your context and culture so that you

575
00:24:46,334 --> 00:24:48,726
get intel. It's not to say that you can

576
00:24:48,726 --> 00:24:50,894
only then communicate with them in that

577
00:24:50,894 --> 00:24:53,030
way, but you can better understand, oh,

578
00:24:53,030 --> 00:24:54,774
when Lori chooses to slack me, that's

579
00:24:54,774 --> 00:24:56,806
because she's playing to her strengths

580
00:24:56,806 --> 00:24:59,674
rather than my default of pick up the

581
00:24:59,674 --> 00:25:02,646
phone. Then a couple of other tactical

582
00:25:02,646 --> 00:25:06,022
pieces. One is as a manager or even as

583
00:25:06,022 --> 00:25:08,014
parent. When you say, what do you think?

584
00:25:08,014 --> 00:25:10,406
That feels like a trap, right? If I'm on

585
00:25:10,406 --> 00:25:11,686
the receiving end of what do you think?

586
00:25:11,686 --> 00:25:14,230
I'm like, oh, how honest do you really

587
00:25:14,230 --> 00:25:16,646
want me to be? This didn't go over so well

588
00:25:16,646 --> 00:25:21,324
last time. But if we leverage standard

589
00:25:21,324 --> 00:25:23,600
questions and every time we're evaluating

590
00:25:23,600 --> 00:25:27,016
a topic or a concern or a project, we ask

591
00:25:27,016 --> 00:25:28,760
the same questions, what are the pros of

592
00:25:28,760 --> 00:25:31,176
this idea? What are the cons of the idea?

593
00:25:31,176 --> 00:25:32,864
What about this works? What about this

594
00:25:32,864 --> 00:25:35,712
doesn't work? What resonates? What doesn't

595
00:25:35,712 --> 00:25:37,884
resonate? You know, you're inviting the

596
00:25:37,884 --> 00:25:40,544
positive, and you're also inviting what is

597
00:25:40,544 --> 00:25:43,000
classically negative. But the standard

598
00:25:43,000 --> 00:25:46,272
questions helps people expect that, oh,

599
00:25:46,272 --> 00:25:47,304
these are the questions we're going to

600
00:25:47,304 --> 00:25:48,960
answer in the meeting. So the post

601
00:25:48,960 --> 00:25:51,392
processors can sort of pre process. And

602
00:25:51,392 --> 00:25:52,688
also you're signaling, I want to know

603
00:25:52,688 --> 00:25:55,064
about the cons, right? I want to know what

604
00:25:55,064 --> 00:25:57,336
doesn't resonate. That's just naturally

605
00:25:57,336 --> 00:26:01,480
what we talk about here. The other is one

606
00:26:01,480 --> 00:26:05,204
of my favorites, which is using magic wand

607
00:26:05,204 --> 00:26:07,792
questions. So if you had a magic wand,

608
00:26:07,792 --> 00:26:09,400
what would you change? Or if you had a

609
00:26:09,400 --> 00:26:11,096
magic wand, what would you do? And there's

610
00:26:11,096 --> 00:26:15,392
a whimsy to it and a cover of magic, of

611
00:26:15,392 --> 00:26:18,472
we're suspending reality. So all of our

612
00:26:18,472 --> 00:26:20,528
critical thinking and the rebuttals that

613
00:26:20,528 --> 00:26:23,396
we can come up with, our heads take a

614
00:26:23,396 --> 00:26:25,124
backseat for just a minute to say, if I

615
00:26:25,124 --> 00:26:26,868
really had a magic wand, here's what I

616
00:26:26,868 --> 00:26:29,012
want to change about our relationship. And

617
00:26:29,012 --> 00:26:29,972
when you start to push back. You'D be

618
00:26:29,972 --> 00:26:32,060
like, well, that was just magic, right?

619
00:26:32,060 --> 00:26:34,964
But that starts to invite in what people

620
00:26:34,964 --> 00:26:37,972
really think, and then you can unpack

621
00:26:37,972 --> 00:26:40,980
that. But I would say that being human

622
00:26:40,980 --> 00:26:44,884
means that it is naturally hard to listen

623
00:26:44,884 --> 00:26:47,028
to people who look and sound different

624
00:26:47,028 --> 00:26:49,744
than us, much less have different

625
00:26:49,744 --> 00:26:51,950
perspective. Right. We gravitate toward

626
00:26:51,950 --> 00:26:54,342
people who look and sound like us. There's

627
00:26:54,342 --> 00:26:56,526
a ton of research around it. It makes

628
00:26:56,526 --> 00:26:58,438
sense, particularly when we're

629
00:26:58,438 --> 00:27:02,174
oversubscribed and too busy. But we also

630
00:27:02,174 --> 00:27:04,038
know, at least intellectually, what we

631
00:27:04,038 --> 00:27:07,526
miss out on if we're only talking and

632
00:27:07,526 --> 00:27:09,774
listening to people who sound like us. So

633
00:27:09,774 --> 00:27:13,606
there is a muscle. And this is in the book

634
00:27:13,606 --> 00:27:16,062
of how to listen across difference. And

635
00:27:16,062 --> 00:27:18,190
difference isn't just difference of

636
00:27:18,190 --> 00:27:20,574
perspective, but difference of style. Can

637
00:27:20,574 --> 00:27:23,070
we listen to someone who might tear up

638
00:27:23,070 --> 00:27:25,750
when they're crying or they're talking and

639
00:27:25,750 --> 00:27:30,806
let that be okay. And as I say, an um.

640
00:27:30,806 --> 00:27:33,822
Listen to people who use ums as a pause or

641
00:27:33,822 --> 00:27:35,694
as a thoughtfulness. I mean, each of those

642
00:27:35,694 --> 00:27:38,038
things have different meanings across

643
00:27:38,038 --> 00:27:40,422
culture. And if we're shoehorning, putting

644
00:27:40,422 --> 00:27:43,342
people in a particular box, we only get a

645
00:27:43,342 --> 00:27:45,510
slice of data that is limited to the data

646
00:27:45,510 --> 00:27:48,952
set of people who look and sound like us.

647
00:27:48,952 --> 00:27:53,104
One of my hopes with the book is that I am

648
00:27:53,104 --> 00:27:55,960
lending potentially a different voice than

649
00:27:55,960 --> 00:27:58,640
a reader's. And for those of us who have

650
00:27:58,640 --> 00:28:00,376
been asked, you know, tell me what it's

651
00:28:00,376 --> 00:28:02,320
like to be asian American in corporate

652
00:28:02,320 --> 00:28:05,592
America and we're so tired of, I get a

653
00:28:05,592 --> 00:28:08,200
little someone said edgy in the book, but

654
00:28:08,200 --> 00:28:11,176
it's 2024. Google it right there. I've

655
00:28:11,176 --> 00:28:13,192
been a ton that has been written about it.

656
00:28:13,192 --> 00:28:15,104
So you don't need me to do the emotional

657
00:28:15,104 --> 00:28:17,120
labor. You don't need your colleague to do

658
00:28:17,120 --> 00:28:19,736
the emotional relational labor to educate

659
00:28:19,736 --> 00:28:24,376
you on top of doing their day job. But

660
00:28:24,376 --> 00:28:26,080
part of the hope of the. Book is here is

661
00:28:26,080 --> 00:28:27,984
another perspective. It may not be

662
00:28:27,984 --> 00:28:30,200
comfortable, you may not agree with me,

663
00:28:30,200 --> 00:28:33,928
but the aim is to be at least naming

664
00:28:33,928 --> 00:28:37,504
silence as a thing, because it impacts all

665
00:28:37,504 --> 00:28:40,096
of us, whether or not we want to recognize

666
00:28:40,096 --> 00:28:42,160
it. And the best thing we can do as

667
00:28:42,160 --> 00:28:45,136
leaders or as parents, is to be cognizant

668
00:28:45,136 --> 00:28:47,904
that silence exists. And if we're not

669
00:28:47,904 --> 00:28:50,776
actively managing the role that silence

670
00:28:50,776 --> 00:28:53,688
has in our teens or in our families, it

671
00:28:53,688 --> 00:28:56,204
likely is silencing the people we care

672
00:28:56,204 --> 00:28:58,944
about. The parenting question is a really

673
00:28:58,944 --> 00:29:00,872
hard one. I have a six year old. We have a

674
00:29:00,872 --> 00:29:03,484
lot of why questions, and I am really

675
00:29:03,484 --> 00:29:08,824
tired. And even that awareness of if I

676
00:29:08,824 --> 00:29:12,032
want to raise my son in a way that signals

677
00:29:12,032 --> 00:29:13,928
to him that he has a voice, what might I

678
00:29:13,928 --> 00:29:16,556
do here? And to be really clear,

679
00:29:16,556 --> 00:29:19,028
unlearning silence does not mean saying

680
00:29:19,028 --> 00:29:21,420
everything to everyone all the time. The

681
00:29:21,420 --> 00:29:24,124
world is too complex and too noisy for

682
00:29:24,124 --> 00:29:26,572
that, because there's also what impact do

683
00:29:26,572 --> 00:29:29,620
your words have on the people around you?

684
00:29:29,620 --> 00:29:33,084
So that is very much the dance in

685
00:29:33,084 --> 00:29:37,220
parenting of here's how I see the world,

686
00:29:37,220 --> 00:29:39,784
here's the impact that you're having on

687
00:29:39,784 --> 00:29:43,058
me, or I cannot have this conversation

688
00:29:43,058 --> 00:29:45,370
right now, and I really. Care about what

689
00:29:45,370 --> 00:29:48,186
you are thinking. So let's find a time or

690
00:29:48,186 --> 00:29:51,674
a place or a way that works for both of

691
00:29:51,674 --> 00:29:54,666
us. But it is this ongoing journey, which

692
00:29:54,666 --> 00:29:57,386
is why the book is called unlearning

693
00:29:57,386 --> 00:29:59,866
silence ing. Rather than unlearn, check

694
00:29:59,866 --> 00:30:01,498
the box. We've unlearned silence. We're

695
00:30:01,498 --> 00:30:05,586
done here. Wow. Excellent point. Yeah. It

696
00:30:05,586 --> 00:30:07,584
is a process. It's hard because it's

697
00:30:07,584 --> 00:30:09,624
coming at us from all angles in all

698
00:30:09,624 --> 00:30:12,408
different ways. You talk about these three

699
00:30:12,408 --> 00:30:14,032
levers of voice. Could you unpack that a

700
00:30:14,032 --> 00:30:16,464
little bit for us? Yeah. The three levers

701
00:30:16,464 --> 00:30:20,144
for voice come from a classic negotiation

702
00:30:20,144 --> 00:30:22,168
analysis. So in the 1980s, my colleagues

703
00:30:22,168 --> 00:30:25,352
at the Harvard negotiation project noticed

704
00:30:25,352 --> 00:30:27,920
that each negotiation is actually the

705
00:30:27,920 --> 00:30:30,512
confluence of three negotiations. You're

706
00:30:30,512 --> 00:30:32,224
negotiating about the substance, the terms

707
00:30:32,224 --> 00:30:35,592
and conditions of the deal, to say, to put

708
00:30:35,592 --> 00:30:37,976
it lightly. And you're also negotiating

709
00:30:37,976 --> 00:30:40,576
the relationship, who's in the room, how

710
00:30:40,576 --> 00:30:43,160
we feel treated, and if any of us have

711
00:30:43,160 --> 00:30:45,528
people in our lives that we don't like, we

712
00:30:45,528 --> 00:30:49,504
know that we, hypothetically, right. If we

713
00:30:49,504 --> 00:30:51,944
don't like them, we are much less likely

714
00:30:51,944 --> 00:30:54,832
to want to work with them or to say yes to

715
00:30:54,832 --> 00:30:57,560
them. So the relationship, the level of

716
00:30:57,560 --> 00:30:59,520
trust, and how we feel treated by them

717
00:30:59,520 --> 00:31:02,400
actually profoundly impacts the substance.

718
00:31:02,400 --> 00:31:04,440
And last but not least is process, which

719
00:31:04,440 --> 00:31:07,072
is the underestimated stepchild of the

720
00:31:07,072 --> 00:31:10,392
three process. So substance is the what,

721
00:31:10,392 --> 00:31:12,664
relationship is the who, process is the

722
00:31:12,664 --> 00:31:14,552
how. How are we working together? That's

723
00:31:14,552 --> 00:31:16,624
all the design work that we were talking

724
00:31:16,624 --> 00:31:20,088
about in terms of communication patterns.

725
00:31:20,088 --> 00:31:22,088
I looked at that from the standpoint of a

726
00:31:22,088 --> 00:31:24,056
mediator. And a mediator's job typically,

727
00:31:24,056 --> 00:31:26,936
is to hold the process so that people can

728
00:31:26,936 --> 00:31:29,222
focus on the substance. It's also to tend

729
00:31:29,222 --> 00:31:32,134
to the relationship. But to me, that

730
00:31:32,134 --> 00:31:34,422
actually serves as three levers for voice,

731
00:31:34,422 --> 00:31:36,350
because so often we think, look, I'm not

732
00:31:36,350 --> 00:31:39,302
the subject matter expert, right? This

733
00:31:39,302 --> 00:31:40,982
person has been at the company. They're

734
00:31:40,982 --> 00:31:42,518
the founder, or they've been at the

735
00:31:42,518 --> 00:31:45,270
company for 20 years. How could I possibly

736
00:31:45,270 --> 00:31:47,558
talk about the substance? Well, number

737
00:31:47,558 --> 00:31:50,150
one, you can, because you have a unique

738
00:31:50,150 --> 00:31:52,878
lens on the world and on whatever the

739
00:31:52,878 --> 00:31:54,670
subject is, right? You might just say with

740
00:31:54,670 --> 00:31:57,344
fresh eyes, or coming to this as the

741
00:31:57,344 --> 00:32:00,536
newbie and own that perspective. Your

742
00:32:00,536 --> 00:32:02,584
perspective is limited, but also

743
00:32:02,584 --> 00:32:06,176
legitimate, as is everyone else's. So what

744
00:32:06,176 --> 00:32:08,176
lens of the world are you using on the

745
00:32:08,176 --> 00:32:10,344
substance? But we get hung up on thinking,

746
00:32:10,344 --> 00:32:12,336
I don't have much to say on the substance,

747
00:32:12,336 --> 00:32:15,352
and so I don't have anything to say at all

748
00:32:15,352 --> 00:32:17,496
versus tending to the relationship. Right.

749
00:32:17,496 --> 00:32:20,336
How are people in the room feeling? Who's

750
00:32:20,336 --> 00:32:22,444
not in the room? If you're in a

751
00:32:22,444 --> 00:32:25,226
conversation with the sales team and

752
00:32:25,226 --> 00:32:26,562
engineering's not in the room, and you're

753
00:32:26,562 --> 00:32:29,218
all excited about this new approach you're

754
00:32:29,218 --> 00:32:31,786
going to take with sales, relationship

755
00:32:31,786 --> 00:32:34,898
says, wait, hold on. What is engineering

756
00:32:34,898 --> 00:32:37,042
going to think about this or what impact

757
00:32:37,042 --> 00:32:40,218
is it going to have on them? Because all

758
00:32:40,218 --> 00:32:41,898
those issues are going to come to the

759
00:32:41,898 --> 00:32:43,354
surface eventually. It's just a question

760
00:32:43,354 --> 00:32:47,682
of now or later and how painful and of

761
00:32:47,682 --> 00:32:50,154
course, process is. How, how are we

762
00:32:50,154 --> 00:32:51,562
talking about it? Are we using those

763
00:32:51,562 --> 00:32:53,610
standard questions we talked about? Or are

764
00:32:53,610 --> 00:32:57,122
we saying, what do you think? Are we

765
00:32:57,122 --> 00:33:00,234
typing? Or are we talking? And have we

766
00:33:00,234 --> 00:33:03,082
taken a break because we're at this all

767
00:33:03,082 --> 00:33:06,178
day off site and somehow think that

768
00:33:06,178 --> 00:33:08,362
togetherness is optimal, whereas all of us

769
00:33:08,362 --> 00:33:11,762
are like, we just need a bio break. We

770
00:33:11,762 --> 00:33:13,530
need to go walk around. Are we doing a

771
00:33:13,530 --> 00:33:15,494
walking meeting? All these different

772
00:33:15,494 --> 00:33:18,498
pieces actually impact outcomes and

773
00:33:18,498 --> 00:33:20,218
outcomes, our voice, how we move through

774
00:33:20,218 --> 00:33:23,220
the world. So if you're ever doubting

775
00:33:23,220 --> 00:33:25,316
whether you have anything to add a value,

776
00:33:25,316 --> 00:33:28,220
let me say it. You have value. You have

777
00:33:28,220 --> 00:33:31,252
valuable perspective and you can think

778
00:33:31,252 --> 00:33:33,140
about, are you going to comment or focus

779
00:33:33,140 --> 00:33:35,228
on substance? Are you going to comment or

780
00:33:35,228 --> 00:33:38,028
focus on relationship or comment and focus

781
00:33:38,028 --> 00:33:41,036
on process? Because we need all three. And

782
00:33:41,036 --> 00:33:44,324
all three impact what we end up doing

783
00:33:44,324 --> 00:33:47,916
together or not? That is so insightful.

784
00:33:47,916 --> 00:33:49,500
And as I think about that from somebody

785
00:33:49,500 --> 00:33:51,642
who is, you know, working in a corporation

786
00:33:51,642 --> 00:33:53,082
and has worked in nonprofits in the past

787
00:33:53,082 --> 00:33:56,034
and done a lot of off sites, and those

788
00:33:56,034 --> 00:33:57,538
three elements, I just think they

789
00:33:57,538 --> 00:33:59,114
resonate. They just make sense and they're

790
00:33:59,114 --> 00:34:01,954
not talked about. It's, there's so many

791
00:34:01,954 --> 00:34:04,066
things that aren't talked about and that

792
00:34:04,066 --> 00:34:05,242
you're bringing out in your book. And I

793
00:34:05,242 --> 00:34:07,922
think it's so valuable. And even just when

794
00:34:07,922 --> 00:34:09,450
we think about the cross cultural element

795
00:34:09,450 --> 00:34:10,714
of things, like one of the things, I don't

796
00:34:10,714 --> 00:34:13,546
know if you've ever encountered Erin Meyer

797
00:34:13,546 --> 00:34:14,946
and any of her work, she has this book,

798
00:34:14,946 --> 00:34:17,214
the culture map. Right. And so she's

799
00:34:17,214 --> 00:34:19,358
putting all these cultures on the

800
00:34:19,358 --> 00:34:20,510
spectrum. Right. And one of the ones I

801
00:34:20,510 --> 00:34:21,838
found most fascinating because I read that

802
00:34:21,838 --> 00:34:23,406
when I lived in Singapore and I often

803
00:34:23,406 --> 00:34:25,270
reference it here in my workspace here in

804
00:34:25,270 --> 00:34:28,518
Silicon Valley, is, you know, we have the

805
00:34:28,518 --> 00:34:30,542
whole low context, high context

806
00:34:30,542 --> 00:34:32,190
communication, right. And the US and Japan

807
00:34:32,190 --> 00:34:35,014
are polar opposites. Right. And a lot of

808
00:34:35,014 --> 00:34:37,438
nations around Japan would be on that end

809
00:34:37,438 --> 00:34:39,830
of the spectrum as well. And so, you know,

810
00:34:39,830 --> 00:34:41,686
knowing there's, there's these things like

811
00:34:41,686 --> 00:34:43,526
in japanese language, that's reading the

812
00:34:43,526 --> 00:34:45,864
air, right. And so it's for, like, us

813
00:34:45,864 --> 00:34:48,900
based context that's kind of, it's very

814
00:34:48,900 --> 00:34:50,908
foreign. Right. And so it's like, wait,

815
00:34:50,908 --> 00:34:53,060
there's, there's things in the air I'm

816
00:34:53,060 --> 00:34:55,108
supposed to be hearing. So how. Yeah. What

817
00:34:55,108 --> 00:34:58,380
is your experience with that? Yes, I mean

818
00:34:58,380 --> 00:35:01,556
so much frustration and so much resonance.

819
00:35:01,556 --> 00:35:03,588
And I'll also add another layer, which is

820
00:35:03,588 --> 00:35:07,748
our judgment, our judgment of the way that

821
00:35:07,748 --> 00:35:10,388
someone else does things or a different

822
00:35:10,388 --> 00:35:12,236
culture does things. I know many American

823
00:35:12,236 --> 00:35:14,504
who's like, read the air. That's

824
00:35:14,504 --> 00:35:17,224
ridiculous. Like, I'm so direct and so

825
00:35:17,224 --> 00:35:19,576
clear. Everyone should be like me again,

826
00:35:19,576 --> 00:35:21,640
that is one of the pitfalls of being

827
00:35:21,640 --> 00:35:24,088
human, that we assume because it would

828
00:35:24,088 --> 00:35:26,752
make our lives easier if everyone just

829
00:35:26,752 --> 00:35:29,112
operated like me, they should operate like

830
00:35:29,112 --> 00:35:33,056
me, too, versus, oh, we're different. Then

831
00:35:33,056 --> 00:35:37,120
it begs the question of who gets to decide

832
00:35:37,120 --> 00:35:39,664
if we're in a cross cultural or

833
00:35:39,664 --> 00:35:42,760
multicultural workplace or team, whose

834
00:35:42,760 --> 00:35:47,224
culture, what norms prevail? And to me,

835
00:35:47,224 --> 00:35:51,520
the sheer ability to discuss them, to name

836
00:35:51,520 --> 00:35:54,400
the differences, gets us a long way. In

837
00:35:54,400 --> 00:35:58,512
the book, I also talk about three buckets.

838
00:35:58,512 --> 00:36:01,688
In every situation. There's the people who

839
00:36:01,688 --> 00:36:02,976
decide, the people who are consulted and

840
00:36:02,976 --> 00:36:04,664
the people who are informed. And one of

841
00:36:04,664 --> 00:36:07,384
the frustrations about voice is when we

842
00:36:07,384 --> 00:36:09,896
think we're being consulted, but really,

843
00:36:09,896 --> 00:36:12,016
it's a fake consult. Lori, what do you

844
00:36:12,016 --> 00:36:13,232
think? And then Lori's like, blah, blah,

845
00:36:13,232 --> 00:36:15,216
blah, I will share with you. And then you

846
00:36:15,216 --> 00:36:16,760
make the decision. And Lori's like, well,

847
00:36:16,760 --> 00:36:18,392
why? Why did you ask me if you're just, if

848
00:36:18,392 --> 00:36:19,964
you knew what you were going to do

849
00:36:19,964 --> 00:36:22,464
anyways, but being really clear, who

850
00:36:22,464 --> 00:36:24,904
actually decides what the norms are? And

851
00:36:24,904 --> 00:36:27,800
the particularly interesting fact about a

852
00:36:27,800 --> 00:36:30,484
team is that those norms often are co

853
00:36:30,484 --> 00:36:32,840
created. You can have a leader who says,

854
00:36:32,840 --> 00:36:35,168
we're doing things this way, but if people

855
00:36:35,168 --> 00:36:38,496
don't follow, then you don't actually have

856
00:36:38,496 --> 00:36:41,400
a culture, even though leaders have a

857
00:36:41,400 --> 00:36:44,336
disproportionate impact on cultures. So

858
00:36:44,336 --> 00:36:48,232
are we able to name, we operate

859
00:36:48,232 --> 00:36:50,248
differently, and different doesn't mean

860
00:36:50,248 --> 00:36:52,048
bad, different doesn't mean your culture

861
00:36:52,048 --> 00:36:54,392
is worse than mine. But we have different

862
00:36:54,392 --> 00:36:56,440
ways of operating. And then ask the

863
00:36:56,440 --> 00:36:58,536
question, what do we want to do on our

864
00:36:58,536 --> 00:37:02,160
team here? Oftentimes, though, even the

865
00:37:02,160 --> 00:37:04,168
understanding we operate differently helps

866
00:37:04,168 --> 00:37:07,404
us avoid the misinterpretation, the

867
00:37:07,404 --> 00:37:10,336
demonization of your worse or your bad,

868
00:37:10,336 --> 00:37:12,304
or, why don't you do it my way? Versus,

869
00:37:12,304 --> 00:37:14,224
oh, we're different. And then we need to

870
00:37:14,224 --> 00:37:17,704
figure out how we coexist and how we

871
00:37:17,704 --> 00:37:19,768
collaborate in that way. But one of the

872
00:37:19,768 --> 00:37:22,904
pieces of advice in the book is be

873
00:37:22,904 --> 00:37:27,080
explicit about the implicit, which is what

874
00:37:27,080 --> 00:37:28,576
you said of, you know, I spoke up and

875
00:37:28,576 --> 00:37:30,120
asked a question and then realized, oh, I

876
00:37:30,120 --> 00:37:33,264
guess we don't actually do things around

877
00:37:33,264 --> 00:37:36,552
that around here. But being explicit

878
00:37:36,552 --> 00:37:41,344
doesn't mean. That you. Have to be direct.

879
00:37:41,344 --> 00:37:44,464
Being explicit means, oh, read the air.

880
00:37:44,464 --> 00:37:47,272
That's what is happening here. Can we name

881
00:37:47,272 --> 00:37:49,720
it? Versus. We often figure out all of

882
00:37:49,720 --> 00:37:52,480
this by trial and error over time, but it

883
00:37:52,480 --> 00:37:55,684
can be five years and a lot of relational

884
00:37:55,684 --> 00:38:00,040
damage in the process. So, unlearning

885
00:38:00,040 --> 00:38:01,816
silence, to me is, how do we actually

886
00:38:01,816 --> 00:38:04,544
name, from our limited perspective, our

887
00:38:04,544 --> 00:38:06,584
legitimate perspective, what am I

888
00:38:06,584 --> 00:38:07,752
experiencing? What am I noticing? What am

889
00:38:07,752 --> 00:38:10,192
I feeling? What am I concerned about so

890
00:38:10,192 --> 00:38:12,776
that we can actually wrestle with it

891
00:38:12,776 --> 00:38:16,104
rather than tiptoe and bump hard elbows

892
00:38:16,104 --> 00:38:18,600
with each other until we maybe figure it

893
00:38:18,600 --> 00:38:20,408
out? But at that point in time, someone's

894
00:38:20,408 --> 00:38:23,160
already quit, someone's already decided

895
00:38:23,160 --> 00:38:28,764
it's not safe here. Well, as we think

896
00:38:28,764 --> 00:38:31,824
about wanting to bring more voices to the

897
00:38:31,824 --> 00:38:33,616
table here on this podcast and knowing

898
00:38:33,616 --> 00:38:36,734
that our differences are not only

899
00:38:36,734 --> 00:38:39,190
celebrated and valuable, but really needed

900
00:38:39,190 --> 00:38:40,822
for our world to become a better place.

901
00:38:40,822 --> 00:38:43,654
And that includes corporate America. It

902
00:38:43,654 --> 00:38:45,766
includes the justice system in all

903
00:38:45,766 --> 00:38:47,926
nations. It includes government, includes,

904
00:38:47,926 --> 00:38:49,822
you know, communities, families,

905
00:38:49,822 --> 00:38:54,270
education, every realm you could imagine.

906
00:38:54,270 --> 00:38:55,902
We don't know what we don't know, and

907
00:38:55,902 --> 00:38:58,070
often what we don't know is sitting out

908
00:38:58,070 --> 00:39:00,694
there. And so I guess my last question for

909
00:39:00,694 --> 00:39:03,382
you is, if there's a person listening who

910
00:39:03,382 --> 00:39:05,560
really wants to do this work, they have a

911
00:39:05,560 --> 00:39:07,296
position of power in some way, whether

912
00:39:07,296 --> 00:39:09,992
they lead a small team or a large team,

913
00:39:09,992 --> 00:39:12,304
what is one kind of call to action or

914
00:39:12,304 --> 00:39:14,124
takeaway that you would have them think

915
00:39:14,124 --> 00:39:18,464
through in light of all this conversation?

916
00:39:18,464 --> 00:39:20,328
The question I would be asking is, what

917
00:39:20,328 --> 00:39:26,480
role does silence play on my team? And to

918
00:39:26,480 --> 00:39:30,600
observe it as a neutral third party would.

919
00:39:30,600 --> 00:39:33,376
If you were doing a case study on your

920
00:39:33,376 --> 00:39:36,858
team dynamic, what would you see about

921
00:39:36,858 --> 00:39:39,258
silence and how it's at play? And the

922
00:39:39,258 --> 00:39:41,410
reason I'm suggesting that vantage point

923
00:39:41,410 --> 00:39:45,210
is because there can be a lot of shame or

924
00:39:45,210 --> 00:39:46,906
guilt of, oh, my gosh, I didn't realize I

925
00:39:46,906 --> 00:39:49,122
was silencing this person. And we

926
00:39:49,122 --> 00:39:51,426
associate it with being a bad person, and

927
00:39:51,426 --> 00:39:53,722
then we shut down, which is the last thing

928
00:39:53,722 --> 00:39:55,922
that we want to do to me. And I say this

929
00:39:55,922 --> 00:39:58,914
in the book, so it's in writing, right,

930
00:39:58,914 --> 00:40:02,690
for. For all to see. I am someone who has

931
00:40:02,690 --> 00:40:04,970
been silenced. I am also someone who

932
00:40:04,970 --> 00:40:09,860
silences other people, despite my best

933
00:40:09,860 --> 00:40:13,052
intentions. And the question is not, am I

934
00:40:13,052 --> 00:40:15,420
a good or bad person for doing that, but

935
00:40:15,420 --> 00:40:20,020
am I having the impact that I want? Am I

936
00:40:20,020 --> 00:40:22,316
aligned in how I think I'm showing up and

937
00:40:22,316 --> 00:40:26,020
how I'm actually showing up? And if you

938
00:40:26,020 --> 00:40:28,180
don't know what role silence plays on your

939
00:40:28,180 --> 00:40:29,716
team, number one would invite you to read

940
00:40:29,716 --> 00:40:31,572
the book. And there's sort of a checklist

941
00:40:31,572 --> 00:40:33,984
you can follow of how it might be showing

942
00:40:33,984 --> 00:40:38,780
up. And also, I've tried to write with as

943
00:40:38,780 --> 00:40:41,504
much clarity and compassion as I can

944
00:40:41,504 --> 00:40:44,076
muster because it's going to take all of

945
00:40:44,076 --> 00:40:46,708
us for those changes, but also knowing

946
00:40:46,708 --> 00:40:48,772
that each of us, in our own corners of the

947
00:40:48,772 --> 00:40:51,420
world, across all the industries you

948
00:40:51,420 --> 00:40:53,556
mentioned, we are co creating a different

949
00:40:53,556 --> 00:40:56,108
world, co creating a world in which

950
00:40:56,108 --> 00:40:58,548
belonging, dignity and justice can exist

951
00:40:58,548 --> 00:41:01,436
for every human being, not just for a

952
00:41:01,436 --> 00:41:04,784
privileged few. And our sphere of

953
00:41:04,784 --> 00:41:11,232
influence matters. It absolutely does.

954
00:41:11,232 --> 00:41:13,552
Yes. Bravo. I want to give you a standing

955
00:41:13,552 --> 00:41:17,064
ovation on that one, because, yes, I know

956
00:41:17,064 --> 00:41:18,496
everybody listening that cares about all

957
00:41:18,496 --> 00:41:20,200
the things we're talking about are

958
00:41:20,200 --> 00:41:21,296
resonating with what you're saying. And

959
00:41:21,296 --> 00:41:23,744
it's a great call to action to just ask

960
00:41:23,744 --> 00:41:25,656
the question and be very honest. And I

961
00:41:25,656 --> 00:41:27,016
think the part of the book that really

962
00:41:27,016 --> 00:41:29,784
touched me the most was not only you

963
00:41:29,784 --> 00:41:31,760
unpacking how you had been silenced, but

964
00:41:31,760 --> 00:41:33,616
how you silenced others. And I think

965
00:41:33,616 --> 00:41:36,450
that's just the nuance and the reality

966
00:41:36,450 --> 00:41:39,322
that it's not a great posture to say good

967
00:41:39,322 --> 00:41:41,010
guys, bad guys, but there were all a

968
00:41:41,010 --> 00:41:44,186
mixture of good and bad decisions and

969
00:41:44,186 --> 00:41:46,882
silencing and also not silence. I mean, we

970
00:41:46,882 --> 00:41:49,098
do it right sometimes and we get it wrong

971
00:41:49,098 --> 00:41:50,570
a lot of times, but learning from those

972
00:41:50,570 --> 00:41:51,690
mistakes and moving forward and really

973
00:41:51,690 --> 00:41:52,946
having a growth mindset around this, I

974
00:41:52,946 --> 00:41:54,946
think is really helpful. So thank you so

975
00:41:54,946 --> 00:41:57,154
much for this book, for writing it, for

976
00:41:57,154 --> 00:41:59,058
being so wholehearted about it and

977
00:41:59,058 --> 00:42:01,882
vulnerable yourself, but also for giving

978
00:42:01,882 --> 00:42:03,530
us a great call to action here together.

979
00:42:03,530 --> 00:42:06,177
I'm looking forward to seeing how this has

980
00:42:06,177 --> 00:42:08,664
impactful on our audience, who really does

981
00:42:08,664 --> 00:42:11,428
make the world a better place every day.

982
00:42:11,428 --> 00:42:13,436
So thank you for doing that yourself, for

983
00:42:13,436 --> 00:42:15,180
bringing your differences to the table

984
00:42:15,180 --> 00:42:16,716
today and letting us get to know you a

985
00:42:16,716 --> 00:42:18,316
little bit better and helping us all make

986
00:42:18,316 --> 00:42:20,036
a difference together. Elaine, it's been a

987
00:42:20,036 --> 00:42:22,740
joy to talk to you. Likewise. Thanks for

988
00:42:22,740 --> 00:42:26,684
having me, Lori. You're welcome. Bye. I

989
00:42:26,684 --> 00:42:28,852
mentioned that Elaine is our people. And,

990
00:42:28,852 --> 00:42:30,924
you know, I hope that you have felt the

991
00:42:30,924 --> 00:42:33,686
same way that I have just listening to

992
00:42:33,686 --> 00:42:36,634
her. Not only is she such a good

993
00:42:36,634 --> 00:42:39,246
communicator, she's such a deep thinker,

994
00:42:39,246 --> 00:42:41,510
and she brings in perspective from not

995
00:42:41,510 --> 00:42:43,654
only, you know, having been a lecturer at

996
00:42:43,654 --> 00:42:45,990
Harvard Law School, but also having, you

997
00:42:45,990 --> 00:42:47,974
know, worked in and traveled across this

998
00:42:47,974 --> 00:42:50,590
globe and knowing how all of us

999
00:42:50,590 --> 00:42:52,230
communicate so differently, even

1000
00:42:52,230 --> 00:42:54,246
understanding the nuances of how people

1001
00:42:54,246 --> 00:42:55,982
process, you know, in real time in a

1002
00:42:55,982 --> 00:42:57,966
meeting versus needing a little space

1003
00:42:57,966 --> 00:43:00,000
afterwards, understanding the nuances of

1004
00:43:00,000 --> 00:43:03,520
how we have low context and high context

1005
00:43:03,520 --> 00:43:05,920
communication differences from the US

1006
00:43:05,920 --> 00:43:07,776
context all the way to Asia and the

1007
00:43:07,776 --> 00:43:09,864
spectrum of what that looks like. Also

1008
00:43:09,864 --> 00:43:12,592
just bringing in, you know, the

1009
00:43:12,592 --> 00:43:14,248
neurodiversity into this conversation

1010
00:43:14,248 --> 00:43:16,384
where, you know, I'm thinking about people

1011
00:43:16,384 --> 00:43:19,536
that I know and care about, my loved ones

1012
00:43:19,536 --> 00:43:22,816
who are not quick processors, you know, I

1013
00:43:22,816 --> 00:43:24,888
know in some. Even she brings in the

1014
00:43:24,888 --> 00:43:26,224
educational system into the conversation

1015
00:43:26,224 --> 00:43:28,350
today and thinking about, we have some of

1016
00:43:28,350 --> 00:43:30,206
these standardized tests. And she unpacks

1017
00:43:30,206 --> 00:43:32,554
this a bit in the book of what it's like

1018
00:43:32,554 --> 00:43:35,366
both in the United States and our public

1019
00:43:35,366 --> 00:43:37,006
schools, but also, I think of Singapore in

1020
00:43:37,006 --> 00:43:39,646
the context there. And I know from my work

1021
00:43:39,646 --> 00:43:43,686
that I do in Taiwan because I recently got

1022
00:43:43,686 --> 00:43:46,254
back from there, and understanding how

1023
00:43:46,254 --> 00:43:48,190
that educational system works, too, that

1024
00:43:48,190 --> 00:43:50,750
so many systems around the world are

1025
00:43:50,750 --> 00:43:53,742
teaching students to process quickly,

1026
00:43:53,742 --> 00:43:57,658
process these things very rapidly, whether

1027
00:43:57,658 --> 00:43:59,970
it's reading comprehension test, how many

1028
00:43:59,970 --> 00:44:01,570
words do you read per minute, how many

1029
00:44:01,570 --> 00:44:03,666
math facts do you do per minute? And, you

1030
00:44:03,666 --> 00:44:08,490
know, quick speed is a high value at the

1031
00:44:08,490 --> 00:44:11,218
expense often of deep thoughtfulness and

1032
00:44:11,218 --> 00:44:12,946
curiosity around how these things are

1033
00:44:12,946 --> 00:44:14,650
happening. So that's what I really

1034
00:44:14,650 --> 00:44:17,050
appreciate so much about Elaine's voice

1035
00:44:17,050 --> 00:44:20,346
and this whole conversation is that she's

1036
00:44:20,346 --> 00:44:22,690
getting more existential with us. We're

1037
00:44:22,690 --> 00:44:25,978
asking not just, you know, what, why, and

1038
00:44:25,978 --> 00:44:28,866
how. And these are things that I just

1039
00:44:28,866 --> 00:44:31,098
think if our world is going to move

1040
00:44:31,098 --> 00:44:34,514
forward in ways where we all are working

1041
00:44:34,514 --> 00:44:37,378
for thriving and flourishing of all human

1042
00:44:37,378 --> 00:44:39,666
beings and respect and dignity and

1043
00:44:39,666 --> 00:44:41,026
belonging and justice and all the things

1044
00:44:41,026 --> 00:44:43,434
that we work for in this community, by

1045
00:44:43,434 --> 00:44:45,026
linking arms and working shoulder to

1046
00:44:45,026 --> 00:44:48,146
shoulder with each other, that if we are

1047
00:44:48,146 --> 00:44:50,066
asking questions and really staying

1048
00:44:50,066 --> 00:44:52,718
curious and creating environments where we

1049
00:44:52,718 --> 00:44:55,822
are bringing the voices to the table and

1050
00:44:55,822 --> 00:44:59,114
creating the really fostering and

1051
00:44:59,114 --> 00:45:03,030
cultivating a space where that can happen

1052
00:45:03,030 --> 00:45:05,374
and understanding the pitfalls and the

1053
00:45:05,374 --> 00:45:07,278
oversights we might have as leaders that

1054
00:45:07,278 --> 00:45:10,182
inhibit those things and as parents, which

1055
00:45:10,182 --> 00:45:13,150
we unpack that as well, then once we can

1056
00:45:13,150 --> 00:45:14,886
overcome these hurdles and obstacles

1057
00:45:14,886 --> 00:45:17,078
together that are both internal and

1058
00:45:17,078 --> 00:45:19,470
external, we are going to see a real shift

1059
00:45:19,470 --> 00:45:22,414
in how much of a difference we are a part

1060
00:45:22,414 --> 00:45:25,566
of making along with others. And I just.

1061
00:45:25,566 --> 00:45:26,998
Once again, I could not recommend this

1062
00:45:26,998 --> 00:45:29,062
book more. When I saw the title, I knew I

1063
00:45:29,062 --> 00:45:32,606
was gonna love it, but I had no idea how

1064
00:45:32,606 --> 00:45:35,230
much it was really gonna teach me and how

1065
00:45:35,230 --> 00:45:36,806
much I was gonna be able to unpack as I

1066
00:45:36,806 --> 00:45:38,126
read it. I think it's the kind of book I'm

1067
00:45:38,126 --> 00:45:41,046
gonna read more than once and still keep.

1068
00:45:41,046 --> 00:45:42,878
Like she says, the title isn't unlearn,

1069
00:45:42,878 --> 00:45:46,534
it's unlearning. It's a process, and I am

1070
00:45:46,534 --> 00:45:49,230
so excited to be on this process and

1071
00:45:49,230 --> 00:45:51,006
journey with each of you. I learned so

1072
00:45:51,006 --> 00:45:54,326
much from you. I just thank you, each of

1073
00:45:54,326 --> 00:45:57,526
you who listened to this podcast, by the

1074
00:45:57,526 --> 00:46:01,062
time you know this releases, you're going

1075
00:46:01,062 --> 00:46:03,254
to be facing so many things around the

1076
00:46:03,254 --> 00:46:04,702
world that are going to have hit the news

1077
00:46:04,702 --> 00:46:05,918
that we didn't even know we're going to

1078
00:46:05,918 --> 00:46:08,214
hit. And there's going to be things that

1079
00:46:08,214 --> 00:46:10,390
we face in our personal lives, our

1080
00:46:10,390 --> 00:46:11,622
professional lives, and in our communities

1081
00:46:11,622 --> 00:46:14,278
that we didn't know was going to happen.

1082
00:46:14,278 --> 00:46:16,814
But when we give space to each other to

1083
00:46:16,814 --> 00:46:19,886
just share our voices, the feelings, the

1084
00:46:19,886 --> 00:46:22,894
facts, the values behind it, our world is

1085
00:46:22,894 --> 00:46:24,846
really going to move forward in ways that

1086
00:46:24,846 --> 00:46:27,710
we need it to, where belonging really

1087
00:46:27,710 --> 00:46:30,222
matters. And we are part of that. I just

1088
00:46:30,222 --> 00:46:31,630
thank you to each of you who listen, who

1089
00:46:31,630 --> 00:46:33,526
share this podcast, who rate and review.

1090
00:46:33,526 --> 00:46:35,030
It makes a world of difference for me, and

1091
00:46:35,030 --> 00:46:38,070
it also allows other people to find us and

1092
00:46:38,070 --> 00:46:40,598
bring their voices in and listen to the

1093
00:46:40,598 --> 00:46:41,950
voices of the different guests that we

1094
00:46:41,950 --> 00:46:44,430
have on. And I do think that Elaine's

1095
00:46:44,430 --> 00:46:46,070
voice, I would like to promote it as much

1096
00:46:46,070 --> 00:46:48,110
as possible. So please share this podcast

1097
00:46:48,110 --> 00:46:50,920
with those who need to know about what

1098
00:46:50,920 --> 00:46:53,184
she's saying to help unleash and help us

1099
00:46:53,184 --> 00:46:55,832
all unlearn the silencing that we've been

1100
00:46:55,832 --> 00:46:57,992
a part of or that has happened to us. And

1101
00:46:57,992 --> 00:47:00,120
it's a journey. It certainly is. I think

1102
00:47:00,120 --> 00:47:04,000
of those of you in the faith community

1103
00:47:04,000 --> 00:47:07,080
where you've had to sign NDAs, even NDAs

1104
00:47:07,080 --> 00:47:09,176
tied to severance, and it was really hard

1105
00:47:09,176 --> 00:47:11,624
to do, to get medical insurance for your

1106
00:47:11,624 --> 00:47:15,262
family in a time that was unexpected. And

1107
00:47:15,262 --> 00:47:17,294
I know that that happens also in the

1108
00:47:17,294 --> 00:47:20,622
corporate space where I work now. And even

1109
00:47:20,622 --> 00:47:22,834
people in journalism have faced those

1110
00:47:22,834 --> 00:47:25,334
things, silencing voices or having been

1111
00:47:25,334 --> 00:47:27,606
silenced. And like she said, chapter three

1112
00:47:27,606 --> 00:47:29,070
is her favorite chapter, because there's

1113
00:47:29,070 --> 00:47:31,710
some times where, you know, you have to be

1114
00:47:31,710 --> 00:47:33,166
silent for a variety of reasons. And I

1115
00:47:33,166 --> 00:47:34,942
think of all of those of you who have been

1116
00:47:34,942 --> 00:47:39,070
in the both hostile work environment space

1117
00:47:39,070 --> 00:47:42,486
or in an abuse situation that you're still

1118
00:47:42,486 --> 00:47:45,270
unpacking. And I know that whistleblowers

1119
00:47:45,270 --> 00:47:49,154
out there, it's hard what you're doing and

1120
00:47:49,154 --> 00:47:50,498
walking through that and building a

1121
00:47:50,498 --> 00:47:52,266
village around you and knowing when

1122
00:47:52,266 --> 00:47:53,834
there's a time to speak and when there's a

1123
00:47:53,834 --> 00:47:55,786
time to be silent for yourself is so

1124
00:47:55,786 --> 00:47:57,754
important. So I do for nothing else.

1125
00:47:57,754 --> 00:47:59,186
Forget the book for chapter three, because

1126
00:47:59,186 --> 00:48:02,050
it's so impactful. And I also just want to

1127
00:48:02,050 --> 00:48:03,810
thank each of you who have reached out to

1128
00:48:03,810 --> 00:48:05,586
me and shared your stories. Personally, I

1129
00:48:05,586 --> 00:48:08,186
get a lot of your stories and I hold them

1130
00:48:08,186 --> 00:48:11,546
and I stay silent about them. For those of

1131
00:48:11,546 --> 00:48:14,514
you who kind of come to me in confidential

1132
00:48:14,514 --> 00:48:16,626
ways, to share about ways that you have

1133
00:48:16,626 --> 00:48:18,514
been silenced in your own workplace or

1134
00:48:18,514 --> 00:48:20,666
faith community, and it means a lot to me

1135
00:48:20,666 --> 00:48:22,330
as a whistleblower who's walked through

1136
00:48:22,330 --> 00:48:24,770
this journey, and it's not been easy, but

1137
00:48:24,770 --> 00:48:27,962
I do want to be a space where you can

1138
00:48:27,962 --> 00:48:29,962
share those things with me. I don't always

1139
00:48:29,962 --> 00:48:32,082
get to respond right away. Some of you

1140
00:48:32,082 --> 00:48:34,174
have been able to meet in person, and

1141
00:48:34,174 --> 00:48:35,866
recently several of you reached out who

1142
00:48:35,866 --> 00:48:38,866
were in the La Orange county area, and I

1143
00:48:38,866 --> 00:48:40,922
was there speaking at podcast movement

1144
00:48:40,922 --> 00:48:43,700
evolution. I got to meet several listeners

1145
00:48:43,700 --> 00:48:46,188
in person, and we schedule different times

1146
00:48:46,188 --> 00:48:48,084
to have coffee together and I just hold

1147
00:48:48,084 --> 00:48:50,988
those stories so, so dear and close to me,

1148
00:48:50,988 --> 00:48:52,692
and it means so much that you would come

1149
00:48:52,692 --> 00:48:54,260
and share those things with you. We shed

1150
00:48:54,260 --> 00:48:58,628
some tears, exchanged hugs, and just had

1151
00:48:58,628 --> 00:49:01,860
moments where we just heard each other.

1152
00:49:01,860 --> 00:49:03,468
And you get to hear my voice quite a bit

1153
00:49:03,468 --> 00:49:04,892
and the voices of the guests that I bring

1154
00:49:04,892 --> 00:49:06,676
on. But it's really such an honor for me

1155
00:49:06,676 --> 00:49:08,460
to hear your voice and meet you in person.

1156
00:49:08,460 --> 00:49:10,476
So thank you to those of you who have

1157
00:49:10,476 --> 00:49:11,956
reached out to me and we've been able to

1158
00:49:11,956 --> 00:49:15,788
make those things work. If any of you are

1159
00:49:15,788 --> 00:49:18,724
in the UK, in the London area, I'll be

1160
00:49:18,724 --> 00:49:20,988
there in April. So if you're there and

1161
00:49:20,988 --> 00:49:22,596
want to reach out and we can make it work,

1162
00:49:22,596 --> 00:49:25,116
would love to just meet you in person if

1163
00:49:25,116 --> 00:49:26,596
we could work that out. But yes, always

1164
00:49:26,596 --> 00:49:27,692
feel free to reach out. You never know

1165
00:49:27,692 --> 00:49:29,300
where I'm going to be traveling to, and it

1166
00:49:29,300 --> 00:49:31,664
might happen. But also, I just want to

1167
00:49:31,664 --> 00:49:34,060
say, you know, thank you for coming into

1168
00:49:34,060 --> 00:49:36,100
this podcast week after week and listening

1169
00:49:36,100 --> 00:49:39,048
and sharing it with others, because we are

1170
00:49:39,048 --> 00:49:41,296
impacting lives one person, one podcast at

1171
00:49:41,296 --> 00:49:43,568
a time as we bring these voices to the

1172
00:49:43,568 --> 00:49:44,968
table. And it really does make a

1173
00:49:44,968 --> 00:49:46,664
difference when you share it with others

1174
00:49:46,664 --> 00:49:49,776
and when you want to interact with me.

1175
00:49:49,776 --> 00:49:53,048
This is my why I do this, for you, to

1176
00:49:53,048 --> 00:49:55,552
bring you these voices that have impacted

1177
00:49:55,552 --> 00:49:57,336
me, whether it's books they've written,

1178
00:49:57,336 --> 00:49:59,320
like Elaine's book, or the work that

1179
00:49:59,320 --> 00:50:00,928
they're doing in a variety of ways. I want

1180
00:50:00,928 --> 00:50:02,696
you to know about these individuals that

1181
00:50:02,696 --> 00:50:04,192
have impacted me and made a difference for

1182
00:50:04,192 --> 00:50:07,120
me so that you can also glean from their

1183
00:50:07,120 --> 00:50:09,732
wisdom and their insights, too. All of our

1184
00:50:09,732 --> 00:50:11,004
perspectives coming around the table

1185
00:50:11,004 --> 00:50:13,308
really are forming our world into a better

1186
00:50:13,308 --> 00:50:15,700
place. And I truly believe that. And so,

1187
00:50:15,700 --> 00:50:17,812
yeah, if you have other suggestions for

1188
00:50:17,812 --> 00:50:19,228
people that are impacting you that you

1189
00:50:19,228 --> 00:50:20,876
want to suggest for the show. Always feel

1190
00:50:20,876 --> 00:50:23,836
free to reach out to me. I'm on Twitter

1191
00:50:23,836 --> 00:50:27,012
oreadbr, or you can find me at Instagram

1192
00:50:27,012 --> 00:50:28,516
oriadamsbrown. And feel free to reach out.

1193
00:50:28,516 --> 00:50:32,564
I love to hear from you and what is

1194
00:50:32,564 --> 00:50:34,028
impacting your life. And different guests

1195
00:50:34,028 --> 00:50:36,054
that we have on the show occasionally come

1196
00:50:36,054 --> 00:50:37,866
from suggestions from each of you as

1197
00:50:37,866 --> 00:50:39,354
listeners. So if you're hoping to co

1198
00:50:39,354 --> 00:50:42,066
create this podcast too, and as always, we

1199
00:50:42,066 --> 00:50:44,130
do go a lot deeper in our difference maker

1200
00:50:44,130 --> 00:50:46,050
community. So if you are not there yet,

1201
00:50:46,050 --> 00:50:47,618
you really, I'm sorry, you're missing out.

1202
00:50:47,618 --> 00:50:49,026
I'm just going to say because it is a

1203
00:50:49,026 --> 00:50:51,226
space where we take this to the next level

1204
00:50:51,226 --> 00:50:52,866
with our guests. So we do that with

1205
00:50:52,866 --> 00:50:56,138
Elaine. Here she goes. And we unpack a

1206
00:50:56,138 --> 00:50:58,490
question where I ask her to sort of help

1207
00:50:58,490 --> 00:51:01,290
us understand for all of you out there

1208
00:51:01,290 --> 00:51:02,690
making a difference in the world, what is

1209
00:51:02,690 --> 00:51:05,676
her wisdom advice for those of us who are

1210
00:51:05,676 --> 00:51:08,612
working so hard in spaces that are really

1211
00:51:08,612 --> 00:51:10,212
difficult, and she's interacted with a lot

1212
00:51:10,212 --> 00:51:12,212
of those spaces around the world with her

1213
00:51:12,212 --> 00:51:15,164
work, and so she has some great nuggets to

1214
00:51:15,164 --> 00:51:16,852
share where she unpacks three different

1215
00:51:16,852 --> 00:51:19,332
things about how to, you know, care for

1216
00:51:19,332 --> 00:51:20,820
yourself as a leader, making a difference

1217
00:51:20,820 --> 00:51:23,116
out there and, you know, to avoid burnout

1218
00:51:23,116 --> 00:51:25,324
to work, you know, and resilience for

1219
00:51:25,324 --> 00:51:27,204
yourself and how this whole silencing

1220
00:51:27,204 --> 00:51:30,000
conversation really is impacting people

1221
00:51:30,000 --> 00:51:31,536
around the world in these various ways.

1222
00:51:31,536 --> 00:51:33,336
And so you don't want to miss that. So

1223
00:51:33,336 --> 00:51:35,168
we'll release that episode soon in our

1224
00:51:35,168 --> 00:51:37,560
difference maker community, which you can

1225
00:51:37,560 --> 00:51:40,432
join for as little as $5 a month. For an

1226
00:51:40,432 --> 00:51:42,696
entire month, just $5, you can get access

1227
00:51:42,696 --> 00:51:44,928
to all of these previous exclusive

1228
00:51:44,928 --> 00:51:46,256
episodes at whatever interior level you

1229
00:51:46,256 --> 00:51:47,752
end up joining at. So we'd love to have

1230
00:51:47,752 --> 00:51:49,376
you there and also helps support the show.

1231
00:51:49,376 --> 00:51:51,256
So I really appreciate those of you who

1232
00:51:51,256 --> 00:51:52,616
are there because it makes a difference

1233
00:51:52,616 --> 00:51:54,072
for me and being able to produce the show

1234
00:51:54,072 --> 00:51:56,096
and put it out in the world. So please

1235
00:51:56,096 --> 00:52:01,776
join us there at www.patreon.com

1236
00:52:01,776 --> 00:52:03,256
aworldofdifference would love to have you

1237
00:52:03,256 --> 00:52:05,784
join. It's a lot of deep conversation

1238
00:52:05,784 --> 00:52:07,808
there which you really, really resonate

1239
00:52:07,808 --> 00:52:10,360
with. So thank you, everyone, for all the

1240
00:52:10,360 --> 00:52:11,696
great work you're doing around the world,

1241
00:52:11,696 --> 00:52:14,040
for just being who you are, for bringing

1242
00:52:14,040 --> 00:52:16,408
your voice to the table, and for being

1243
00:52:16,408 --> 00:52:19,280
silent when it makes sense for you. And

1244
00:52:19,280 --> 00:52:20,976
I'd love to know what this conversation

1245
00:52:20,976 --> 00:52:24,192
has meant to you today around unlearning

1246
00:52:24,192 --> 00:52:26,904
silence with Elaine Lin Hering Wherever

1247
00:52:26,904 --> 00:52:29,048
you are and whatever you're facing,

1248
00:52:29,048 --> 00:52:30,936
whatever internal or external obstacles

1249
00:52:30,936 --> 00:52:33,216
are out in front of you today, I hope you

1250
00:52:33,216 --> 00:52:35,592
take a deep breath that you care for

1251
00:52:35,592 --> 00:52:39,568
yourself and that you just know that you

1252
00:52:39,568 --> 00:52:43,368
matter, your voice matters. And you are

1253
00:52:43,368 --> 00:52:47,200
such a person who is valued and loved and

1254
00:52:47,200 --> 00:52:49,680
cared for in this world. And I hope that

1255
00:52:49,680 --> 00:52:51,696
you experience a lot of self compassion

1256
00:52:51,696 --> 00:52:53,480
for yourself today and a lot of kindness

1257
00:52:53,480 --> 00:52:56,286
towards yourself and others as you make

1258
00:52:56,286 --> 00:52:58,822
the world a better place. So keep making a

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