A podcast for those who are different and want to make a difference.
April 17, 2024

Jemar Tisby and Doug Strong on Awakening to Justice: Rediscovering Abolitionists' Calls for Equality

Jemar Tisby and Doug Strong on Awakening to Justice: Rediscovering Abolitionists' Calls for Equality

If you're feeling overwhelmed by the complexities of racial justice and faith intersections, and wondering how to truly make a difference, then you are not alone! The struggle to understand the historical context and apply it to modern-day challenges can be daunting. Many may be seeking guidance on how to effectively navigate these issues and create meaningful change.
Join two researchers Jemar Tisby and Doug Strong who expose a diary of an abolitionist in their book “Awakening to Justice.”

If you're feeling overwhelmed by the complexities of racial justice and faith intersections, and wondering how to truly make a difference, then you are not alone! The struggle to understand the historical context and apply it to modern-day challenges can be daunting. Many may be seeking guidance on how to effectively navigate these issues and create meaningful change.

 

My special guests are Jemar Tisby, Doug Strong

 

Jemar Tisby, the New York Times bestselling author of "The Color of Compromise," is a historian, author, and speaker. His work has been featured in reputable platforms such as CNN, the Washington Post, the Atlantic, and the New York Times. Jemar's expertise in addressing the truth about the American church's complicity in racism makes him a significant voice in the intersection of faith and racial justice. As a PhD candidate in history at the University of Mississippi, his commitment to shedding light on historical lessons from abolitionist movements and advocating for social reform through interracial solidarity is evident in his work. Jemar's impact extends beyond academia as he is the founder and president of the Witness of Black Christian Collective and the co-host of the Pass the Mic podcast. His dedication to historical research and advocacy for justice makes him an influential figure in the conversation on racial equity and social change.

 

Doug Strong, an esteemed author and professor with a wealth of knowledge in American religious history, specifically focusing on the 19th-century revivalism and social reform, is a vital voice in the discussion of faith and racial justice. With an MDIV and a PhD from Princeton Theological Seminary, Doug's expertise and dedication to understanding the historical abolitionist movements bring valuable insights to the current social and racial justice landscape. As a committed pastor and a professor at Seattle Pacific University, Doug's passion for intercultural learning and his extensive experience in leading students on international trips underscore his commitment to shaping a global perspective on faith and justice. His contributions to the Awakening to Justice: Faithful Voices from the Abolitionist Past project reflect his deep understanding of the impact of historical narratives on contemporary social reform.

 

The theological, the Christian principle of loving your neighbor as yourself is still applicable in that situation. And what it forces us to do is to try to perceive the world from another person's perspective, which is what a world of difference podcast is all about. - Jemar Tisby

 

In this episode, you will be able to:

  • Explore the profound impact of faith on driving meaningful change in racial justice movements.
  • Uncover valuable historical insights and powerful tactics used by abolitionist movements to inspire modern-day activism.
  • Discover the pivotal role of interracial solidarity in advancing social reform and creating lasting change.
  • Learn actionable strategies from historical abolitionists to empower and guide today's activists in their advocacy work.
  • Gain a deeper understanding of history through the impactful influence of personal journals on shaping historical narratives.

 

Role of Interracial Solidarity

The importance of interracial solidarity in driving social reform is underscored throughout the episode, emphasizing the need for collaboration across diverse backgrounds to effect meaningful change. By highlighting the contributions of lesser-known figures from the abolitionist movement, the discussion showcases the power of unity in addressing racial injustices. The episode prompts faith leaders and activists to prioritize building connections and fostering meaningful relationships across racial boundaries, recognizing the collective strength that comes from diverse voices working together towards justice

 

The resources mentioned in this episode are:

  • Visit awakeningtojustice.com for free resources related to the book Awakening to Justice: Faithful Voices from the Abolitionist Past, including a discussion guide, sermon ideas, music suggestions, worship song ideas, and a 35-minute film documentary.
  • Order a copy of "Awakening to Justice," at: https://www.ivpress.com/awakening-to-justice and get a discount just for A World of Difference podcast listeners with promo code: IVPPOD20
  • Subscribe to Jemar Tisby's substack at jemartisby.substack.com for more of his writing and insights on racial justice and faith.
  • Participate in a book club, church group, or civic group to study Awakening to Justice together, and consider hosting a viewing or screening of the accompanying film documentary followed by a discussion.
  • Consider applying for grants to gather and travel to historical sites related to racial justice advocacy, fostering intentional connections and learning from different perspectives.
  • Take pilgrimages together with a group to historical sites in your area that have significance, paying attention not only to the content of what you're studying, but also to the connections that you're forming.
  •  

The justification follows the action. In the case of us race-based chattel slavery, slaveholders were going to get their money. They were going to find laborers. They were going to increase their bottom line by not paying them. And then they were going to come up with the rationale and the reasoning to justify it. - Jemar Tisby

 

Lessons from Abolitionist Movements

The episode explores the valuable lessons that can be gleaned from historical abolitionist movements, shedding light on the strategies and tactics employed by abolitionists to fight against racism and oppression. By studying the experiences of abolitionists, modern activists can gain insights into effective approaches to address racial injustices and promote equality in society. The conversation emphasizes the relevance of historical narratives in shaping current advocacy efforts and highlights the enduring impact of past activism on present-day social justice movements.

 

The key moments in this episode are:

00:00:02 - Introducing the Authors

 

00:02:49 - Unveiling a Compelling Discovery

 

00:09:07 - The Other Narrative of Christianity

 

00:11:38 - Contemporary Relevance and Challenges

 

00:15:14 - Importance of Interracial Solidarity

 

00:16:40 - Documenting Our Work

 

00:18:13 - Applying Faith to Justice Issues

 

00:19:15 - Lesser-Known Abolitionist Figures

 

00:26:53 - Faith and Pursuit of Justice

 

00:32:32 - The Call to Justice and Unity

 

00:33:30 - The Influence of Narratives

 

00:34:43 - Justification of Slavery

 

00:39:00 - Lessons from Abolitionists

 

00:45:43 - Calls to Action

 

00:50:19 - Importance of Listening to Different Voices

 

00:50:58 - Embracing Differences and Working Together

 

00:51:38 - Global Relevance of the Book

 

00:52:02 - Encouragement for Self-Care

 

00:52:52 - Final Words of Encouragement

 

Our differences are beautiful. And we want to highlight those because it's our different perspectives that help each of us think more deeply and make a difference together in ways we otherwise wouldn't. - Lori Adams-Brown

 

Timestamped summary of this episode:

00:00:02 - Introducing the Authors

Host Lori introduces authors Jamar Tisby and Doug Stone, highlighting their backgrounds and the inspiration behind their new book.

 

00:02:49 - Unveiling a Compelling Discovery

Doug discusses the exciting discovery of a diary belonging to an abolitionist found in a box at Adrian College, sparking the inspiration for their book.

 

00:09:07 - The Other Narrative of Christianity

Jamar explores the alternative narrative of Christianity, focusing on the voices and actions of those who worked for justice and equality within the context of their faith, challenging the prevailing narrative of complicity with racism.

 

00:11:38 - Contemporary Relevance and Challenges

Doug highlights the ongoing relevance of the abolitionist voices in the book, emphasizing the need to confront the continuing effects of racism and white supremacy, drawing parallels between historical struggles and modern-day activism.

 

00:15:14 - Importance of Interracial Solidarity

Jemar emphasizes the importance of not giving up on interracial solidarity and cooperation, highlighting the power of people coming together across differences to pursue common goals, such as the abolition movement.

 

00:16:40 - Documenting Our Work

Doug discusses the significance of documenting our work for posterity, encouraging the use of personal journals, online platforms, and video to leave a legacy for future generations, as exemplified by the journal of the lesser-known abolitionist Ingram.

 

00:18:13 - Applying Faith to Justice Issues

Jemar delves into the intersection of faith and justice, emphasizing the application of theological principles to societal and structural levels, urging individuals to get proximate with those on the margins and engage in actions that demonstrate love for neighbors.

 

00:19:15 - Lesser-Known Abolitionist Figures

Doug highlights the contributions of lesser-known abolitionist figures, such as Ingram and Nancy Prince, who played pivotal roles in the abolition movement, including the education of emancipated slaves in Jamaica, shedding light on their collaborative, interracial efforts.

 

00:26:53 - Faith and Pursuit of Justice

Jemar discusses how faith intersects with the pursuit of justice, emphasizing the application of the golden rule and the concept of loving neighbors as oneself on a societal and institutional level, encouraging the engagement of religious institutions in social justice issues today.

 

00:32:32 - The Call to Justice and Unity

Jemar and Doug discuss the need for people of all faiths to come together and work towards justice and unity, addressing issues like racial justice and more.

 

00:33:30 - The Influence of Narratives

The conversation delves into the impact of personal narratives and cultural filters on interpreting scriptures and justifying actions, especially in the context of the US and historical racism.

 

00:34:43 - Justification of Slavery

Jemar addresses the age-old question of how the same scriptures can both liberate and condone enslavement, highlighting how the justification often follows the action, especially in the case of race-based chattel slavery.

 

00:39:00 - Lessons from Abolitionists

Doug and Jemar emphasize the importance of intentional connection and fellowship with others, drawing inspiration from the abolitionists and their commitment to coming together to work towards justice.

 

00:45:43 - Calls to Action

The guests provide concrete calls to action, encouraging people to come together, take pilgrimages, and intentionally form connections with others from diverse backgrounds to foster longevity, perseverance, and resilience in the struggle for justice.

 

00:50:19 - Importance of Listening to Different Voices

Lori promotes listening to Jamar Tisby and Doug Stone, highlighting the value of diverse perspectives in making a difference and understanding commonalities.

 

00:50:58 - Embracing Differences and Working Together

Emphasizes the beauty of diverse perspectives and the importance of working together for justice and making a difference shoulder to shoulder.

 

00:51:38 - Global Relevance of the Book

Discusses how the book's insights on race and faith intersecting are relevant worldwide, encouraging continued conversations and efforts towards justice.

 

00:52:02 - Encouragement for Self-Care

Lori encourages listeners to prioritize self-care, highlighting the importance of recharging to continue making a positive impact in the world.

 

00:52:52 - Final Words of Encouragement

Lori expresses gratitude for the listeners' efforts and encourages them to keep making a difference while taking care of themselves.

 

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Keep making a difference wherever you are!

Lori Adams-Brown, Host & Executive Producer

A World of Difference Podcast

Transcript
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Welcome to the A World of Difference

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podcast. I'm Lori Adams Brown and this is

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a podcast for those who are different and

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want to make a difference. Today we have a

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couple of authors on the show that have

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written an amazing book that is just being

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released, and the authors we're having on

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the show are Jamar Tisbee and Doug Stone.

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Jamar Tisby is the author of the New York

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Times bestselling book the Color of

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Compromise, which is about the truth about

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the american church's complicity and

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racism, which many of you have read. His

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writing has been featured on CNN, the

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Washington Post, the Atlantic, and the New

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York Times. He's recently featured in the

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documentary God and Country, and he's the

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founder and president of the Witness of

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Black Christian Collective and the co host

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of Pass the Mic podcast. He's a PhD

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candidate in history at the University of

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Mississippi, and Doug Stone is also one of

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the authors of this book that we're going

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to be featuring today, but he also teaches

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at both undergraduate and graduate courses

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in the School of Theology. His MDIV is

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from Princeton Theological Seminary and

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his PhD is also from Princeton Theological

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Seminary. Doug's field of study is

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american religious history, particularly

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the history of 19th century revivalism,

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social reform, and the Wesleyan Holiness

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movement in America. He's the past

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president of the Wesleyan Theological

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Society, a co convener of the history of

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Methodism, working group of the Oxford

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Institute of Methodist Theological

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Studies, and is on the steering committee

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of the Wesleyan Studies group of the

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American Academy of Religion. He's

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conducted several Wesley heritage study

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tours to England, and he's also led

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students on numerous trips to Russia. He

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has taught four times at the theological

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Seminary of the Russian Methodist Church

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and served on that school's board of

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trustees, and he also taught at two

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theological schools in Korea. He's very

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committed to intercultural learning as

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essential for students preparing to live

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out their christian vocation in a global

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society. Doctor Strong is also an ordained

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clergyman in the United Methodist Church

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and served for eight years as a pastor in

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east Brunswick, New Jersey. He's

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especially interested in reviving the

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wesleyan practice of small group,

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accountable discipleship among today's

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christians, and the book they're on

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talking about today is part of the

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dialogue on race and Faith project, and

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it's called awakening to justice, faithful

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voices from the abolitionist past. It's an

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intriguing book, the way that it starts

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off even, and it sort of grips you from

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the beginning about what this story is

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about. But we're going to get into it

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today with these two guys talking about

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this book, awakening to justice. So

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welcome to the show. Jamara Tisbee and

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Doug Stone. Hello, Jamar and Doug. A very

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warm welcome to the a World of Difference

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podcast to the both of you. Thanks for

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having us. Great to be with you, Lori. It

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is great. We're going to talk about some

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ways we can make a difference together

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today, but it's such an honor to have both

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of you on. And it was also so exciting for

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me to receive an advanced copy of this

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book. We're going to talk about today,

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awakening to justice, faithful voices from

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the abolitionist past. And I'm super

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excited to dig into this conversation with

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you today. But first off, if you could

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each just give a short little introduction

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to yourself. I know a lot of our listeners

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are going to already know who you are, but

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Jamar, why don't you just take the lead

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and tell us a little bit about who you are

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and your background and what brought you

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to this book. Hi, I am doctor Jamar Tisby.

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I'm a historian, an author, and a speaker.

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Folks may know my first book, the Color of

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Compromise, truth about the american

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church's complicity and racism. I'm also a

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professor of history at Simmons College of

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Kentucky, which is a faith based,

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christian, historically black college

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founded in 1879. Awesome. Doug, what about

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you? Yeah, hi, I'm Doug Strong. I'm a

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professor of the history of Christianity

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at Seattle Pacific University in Seattle.

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And prior to that, I was a pastor, and

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I've been a professor at other schools in

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Washington, DC and other places, and also

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was the founding dean of a seminary here

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at Seattle Pacific. So, yeah. And what

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brought me to this book is just my

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lifelong interest in questions of race and

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how that intersects with Christianity,

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especially. Awesome. Well, it's great to

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have both of you change makers and thought

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leaders in this conversation today. I know

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many of us around the world are seeing

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systems that are broken and have been

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broken for a long time, both in religious

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spheres and in government and just society

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in general. And so, coming from academia

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and religious spaces, we're really going

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to dig into some of this with your book

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today. I mean, as I was reading in just

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the beginning, I'm gripped. So I. This is

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not a true crime podcast, but that is the

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biggest genre in podcasting, if you didn't

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know that. And I recently was in LA, met

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speaking at a conference for podcasting

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and met some true crime podcasters. And I

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was reading the introduction to your book

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right after I got back from that

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conference. It sort of read a little bit

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like that, like opening a box. So I guess,

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you know, Doug, if you would take this

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first question, I think it said, in the

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fall of 2019, Noel Keller, the archivist

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at Adrian College, received this large box

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after staff members in the alumni office

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had found the dust filled container high

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up in a supply closet. And then something

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at the bottom of the box opened up this

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whole world of history that had been

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overlooked. So would you describe what she

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found and how it led you to write this

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book? Yeah, fine. I don't think it's

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murders in the building, but I will say

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it's a pretty exciting story. Yeah. This

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librarian was told that there was a box.

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People doing a remodeling of the first,

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oldest building of this small college in

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Michigan found a box, and they thought

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about maybe just throwing it out, and then

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said, well, let's contact the librarian.

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And the librarian went through it, and

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there were all sorts of artifacts. And she

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gets down to the bottom, and there's this

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notebook, and she doesn't know what it is.

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And so she contacts their resident

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chaplain, who's historian at the college.

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And he looks at it, and he can tell just

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by that these faded, yellowed pages with

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script, you know, manuscript writing, and

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then dates 1830, 918, 40, 1841. And he

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realizes this is a diary of somebody, and

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so he does some. This is Chris Mominy,

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who, the chaplain. He does some sleuthing,

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historical good, good historical research,

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and finds out that this is the diary of an

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abolitionist who was close friends and

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associates with Charles Finney, probably

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the best known christian revivalist of the

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19th century, kind of the Billy Graham of

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the 19th century. And so this puts us,

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this document then throws us back right

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into not only the 19th century, but into

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the personal life of somebody, because it

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was a diary. It was a journal. So it's his

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reflections, his recollections, his fears.

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He was a sickly man, and so he talks a lot

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about his health and then about his

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concern for oppressed African Americans.

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So it's quite a document. Yeah, it is.

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It's riveting just to read that at the

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beginning of the book and just, you know,

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piqued my curiosity to want to know more.

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Jamar, though I know you've written and

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spoken a great deal about race and faith,

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and your book, the color compromise,

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explored, really how white Christians,

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more often we're complicit or compromised

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with racism rather than confronting it

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here in the United States. And so can you

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provide sort of an overview of this book

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that you've written together with others

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and what inspired you to join and write in

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on this project. Absolutely. And if I can

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just chime in as a historian here. First

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of all, finding a journal like this is

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like it's the dream. You know, most times

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historians are in libraries. We're looking

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at archives, stuff that's already been

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collected and catalogued. But to find

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something out in the wild, so to speak,

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and then the. The precariousness of this

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find, because if the folks at the college

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hadn't had the wherewithal to say, this

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looks old, maybe there's something

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important, I'll pass it on to this person

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and then passing it on to Chris Mominee,

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who did then recognize the significance.

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So, folks, if you got stuff in your attic,

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your basement, the building at where you

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work, don't just toss it out. Try to do a

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little bit of digging and find out if

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there's something significant. Who knows?

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There might be a whole book there. So my

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involvement with this project is that

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story. Right. It's just a compelling

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story. And then when we dig into the lives

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of the people here, we find out these were

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not the folks who were compromising with

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racism or were complicit with slavery.

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These were the folks who were trying to

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confront it. And then layered on top of

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that, they're doing it within the context

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of their faith. And so often when we talk

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about or hear about Christianity, it's

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about christians behaving badly. And that

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rightly and appropriately, gets a lot of

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headlines, because we need to know about

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that. But there's another narrative, and I

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think that's what this book is really

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crafting, is saying that, yes, there has

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been all of this horrible stuff done in

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the name of Christianity, but also there's

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a different witness. There are people like

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the folks in this book and the scholars

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who assembled around it, who are really

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trying to do the right thing, to work for

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justice, to work for equality, not in

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spite of their. Of faith, but because of.

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So inspiring. Absolutely. And I know that

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you just are getting a standing ovation

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from people listening in the podcast

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community around the world, because we

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want those stories told, and they all need

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to be told, every part of it. Right?

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That's kind of why we have this podcast.

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There's a variety of perspectives. There's

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a part of history, and there's a part of

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the current reality of what it means to be

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human, that we're all a mixture of really

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good and really bad decisions. But some of

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our really bad decisions can really injure

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and harm people systemically for

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generations and generations. And so not

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all bad decisions are equally the same.

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And so being a part of bringing the change

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is so inspiring, gives us hope that even

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in our generation, we can see things. So,

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hey, Doug, I want to ask you this. As you

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were kind of involved in the project, how

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did you see some of the voices and stories

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of the abolitionists featured in the book

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resonate with sort of contemporary

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struggles for sort of this movement of

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justice and equality? Yeah, well, and

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Jamar's already brought this up. The story

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that has been told recently, which is a

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true one, sadly, is about complicity,

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especially white complicity with racism. I

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have a quote that we use in the book that

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I'm going to read. It's not that long, but

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I think it's important. It's by Howard

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Thurman, who was the mentor, really, of

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Martin Luther King. Not now, not as well

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known as king, but he was a pastor. He was

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a theologian and university administrator,

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but this is what he wrote in 1949. So

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really, just as the civil rights movement

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is starting to ramp up, he says, this is

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the question which individuals and groups

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who live in our land always under the

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threat of profound social and

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psychological displacement. So this is the

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question, why is it that Christianity

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seems impotent to deal radically and

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therefore effectively with the issues of

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discrimination and injustice on the basis

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of race? Is this impotence due to a

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betrayal of the genius of the religion, or

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is it due to a basic weakness in the

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religion itself? That is a challenging

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question that every Christian who deals

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with the history of American Christianity

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has to deal with. We have to come to terms

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with that question. And I had to come to

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terms with that question throughout my

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whole life as a Christian who is a

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historian. But it's not just in history.

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It's still true. Right. It's still true

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today. As we see the effects of racism

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continuing. We're not in a post racial

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society. We still see the effects of that

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over and over. White supremacy still

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continues. And so that question is one

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that we have to wrestle with. Well, that's

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why I love the folks in this book. These

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abolitionists were wrestling with the same

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question, and they answered the question

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that it is a bit that the problem of white

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supremacy and racism is a betrayal of the

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genius of Christianity. That was their

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answer. And those of us that worked on

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this book agree with that, that it's. That

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the essence of what Christianity is should

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not be how it manifests itself in white

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racism. So true. Yeah. And I think that

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we've had several historians on the

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podcast. We love historians here we had

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Doctor Beth Allison Barr when her book

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making a vocal woman, had the day it

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released. Actually, we had a pre release

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copy, and then I had Kristen Covez Dumayon

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early on in the Jesus and John Wayne when

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it had just released. And the thing about

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history is we don't want to repeat it, and

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that's why we learn it, and it's why it's

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so important. And so, Jamar, my question

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for you now is, as you have been studying

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this history, what are some key lessons or

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insights that those of us who are modern

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activists and advocates can learn from the

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strategies and tactics employed by

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historical abolitionists? I love that

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question. It's the how to question, which

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we all want to ask. My second book is

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called how to fight racism, and that was

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also another interest point in this book

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as scholars. And there were over a dozen

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of us who were from different

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denominations, different geographic

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locations, ages, experiences, you name it.

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When we came around and assembled around

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this journal, around the history that it

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told, very quickly, the conversation

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turned from the past to the present. What

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can we learn from the past that we can

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apply to the present? There are a lot of

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specifics, but I'll speak in general.

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Principles. Number one, don't give up on

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interracial solidarity and cooperation.

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And I say this as someone who's been very

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much burned by predominantly white

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churches and faith communities. At the

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same time, there is a very powerful

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witness in and of itself of people coming

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together across their differences to

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pursue a common goal. And I think that's

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the difference. I think that what we saw

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in Ingram's journal and the constellation

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of folks that he worked with was they were

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united not simply to be diverse and say,

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hey, this will make a nice brochure

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picture. They were united in pursuit of a

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goal, in this case, abolition. So what

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does that mean for us today? Do we have

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clear goals when it comes to justice? What

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are we working toward? What are we working

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to change? And in pursuit of that? How can

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we bring communities together across

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differences in pursuit of that common

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goal, but make the goal that the focus,

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and not simply diversity the focus? I

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think another lesson we can learn here is

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to document our work. If Ingram hadn't

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written this journal, we might never have

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known of his existence, let alone the

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abolitionist endeavors he and others were

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taking part in. And so we need to think in

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the present, historically. In other words,

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we need to think about the legacy that

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we're leaving for others to find one day

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when our work is part of history. So that

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means having a personal journal. That

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means documenting online, through

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articles, through blogs, and now we have

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the advantage of video and making videos,

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and we don't need, you know, a Hollywood

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camera crew. We have cameras on our

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phones, many of us. And so it really is

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important that we document what we're

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doing for posterity with the idea that

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others might find it. And then lastly, I

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would say there is an ongoing need to

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apply the historic truths of the Bible, of

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scripture, of holy text, to the present

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day. In other words, there is space and a

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need to continue to do theology and apply

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it to justice issues today. So there are

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budding theologians out there who will

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take a formal academic route in college

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and seminary and graduate school. But

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there are folks who are living their

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theology. They are doing good work to make

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the world a better place because of what

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they believe and document that. How do you

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get to your work in the world? From your

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beliefs about the eternal or the

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transcendent? Make that transparent and

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help others connect the dots, so to speak,

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so that their faith can be put into

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action. Love that. That's so great. And we

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do want our children, our grandchildren,

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our great grandchildren, to not make the

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same mistakes we did, but we also want to

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pass our wisdom on. And I would add

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podcasting to that list. Yes. As a way to

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document what's going on. So, Doug, I'm

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wondering, in your research, as you were

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collaborating on this book, did you

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uncover any lesser known figures or

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narratives from the abolitionist movement

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that you believe deserve a little more

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recognition? Yeah. Well, thanks. That's an

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excellent question. Well, Ingram himself,

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the guy whose journal we found was really

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basically unknown, he was unfortunate

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because he played a key role not only at

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Oberlin College, which was the first

429
00:19:34,166 --> 00:19:36,502
racially integrated college in the United

430
00:19:36,502 --> 00:19:39,558
States, and also, by the way, the first to

431
00:19:39,558 --> 00:19:42,594
educate women along with men at an equal

432
00:19:42,594 --> 00:19:45,570
level. And so he was an. And a christian

433
00:19:45,570 --> 00:19:47,674
institution, very clearly a faith based

434
00:19:47,674 --> 00:19:49,810
institution. So he had a key role there.

435
00:19:49,810 --> 00:19:54,130
But he also, he and his wife were the very

436
00:19:54,130 --> 00:19:58,170
first missionaries sent by Oberlin to

437
00:19:58,170 --> 00:20:01,314
Jamaica to work with emancipated slaves.

438
00:20:01,314 --> 00:20:05,954
So the british empire freed enslaved

439
00:20:05,954 --> 00:20:08,002
people 30 years before the United States.

440
00:20:08,002 --> 00:20:10,964
And it really, they did so, though, in a

441
00:20:10,964 --> 00:20:14,108
poor way, because they did not really give

442
00:20:14,108 --> 00:20:17,572
full freedom. But it was very important

443
00:20:17,572 --> 00:20:20,708
for recently emancipated people to receive

444
00:20:20,708 --> 00:20:22,764
education, but the government wasn't

445
00:20:22,764 --> 00:20:25,172
providing any of that. And so Ingraham

446
00:20:25,172 --> 00:20:30,140
went to help establish schools with these

447
00:20:30,140 --> 00:20:33,228
recently emancipated people. Now, what's

448
00:20:33,228 --> 00:20:36,236
cool about Ingraham is he then recruits an

449
00:20:36,236 --> 00:20:39,292
African American, a free black from

450
00:20:39,292 --> 00:20:42,452
Boston, Nancy Prince, to go with him,

451
00:20:42,452 --> 00:20:45,580
because he realizes that as a white man,

452
00:20:45,580 --> 00:20:47,868
he's probably not going to be very

453
00:20:47,868 --> 00:20:50,516
effective in educating black Jamaicans.

454
00:20:50,516 --> 00:20:53,076
And so he recruits an African American, so

455
00:20:53,076 --> 00:20:55,796
she becomes part of the story. And then

456
00:20:55,796 --> 00:20:59,060
also one of Ingraham's colleagues at

457
00:20:59,060 --> 00:21:01,464
Oberlin and then previously at another

458
00:21:01,464 --> 00:21:05,324
school, was James Bradley, another African

459
00:21:05,324 --> 00:21:08,016
American who had been enslaved and then

460
00:21:08,016 --> 00:21:10,536
freed, and freed himself, actually, by

461
00:21:10,536 --> 00:21:12,992
purchasing his own freedom through

462
00:21:12,992 --> 00:21:16,568
incredibly strenuous work. And so we have

463
00:21:16,568 --> 00:21:20,360
this cadre of people, black and white, and

464
00:21:20,360 --> 00:21:22,136
that's the abolitionist movement. That's

465
00:21:22,136 --> 00:21:24,920
why it's so interesting to me and

466
00:21:24,920 --> 00:21:27,848
exciting, because it's a collaborative,

467
00:21:27,848 --> 00:21:31,064
interracial movement of people working, as

468
00:21:31,064 --> 00:21:34,328
Jamar said, toward a goal not only just

469
00:21:34,328 --> 00:21:36,318
freeing slaves, by the way, although that

470
00:21:36,318 --> 00:21:41,126
was key, but also making sure that freed

471
00:21:41,126 --> 00:21:45,238
African Americans in the north also had

472
00:21:45,238 --> 00:21:50,238
full liberties and full rights. And so

473
00:21:50,238 --> 00:21:53,598
that kind of those specific goals in this

474
00:21:53,598 --> 00:21:55,398
interracial, collaborative community, to

475
00:21:55,398 --> 00:21:58,262
me, that's what we uncovered. And, of

476
00:21:58,262 --> 00:22:00,750
course, people knew about that. But these

477
00:22:00,750 --> 00:22:04,320
are some new voices that hadn't been

478
00:22:04,320 --> 00:22:07,576
really heard from before. And I think

479
00:22:07,576 --> 00:22:13,448
what's powerful about this? David Ingram

480
00:22:13,448 --> 00:22:17,600
Bradley, Nancy Prince. I read somewhere

481
00:22:17,600 --> 00:22:20,264
about principles of screenwriting for

482
00:22:20,264 --> 00:22:24,504
movies and things of that nature. And a

483
00:22:24,504 --> 00:22:27,842
filmmaker said, if you're telling a big

484
00:22:27,842 --> 00:22:30,750
story, don't tell the big story. Tell the

485
00:22:30,750 --> 00:22:34,542
small story within the big story. Tell the

486
00:22:34,542 --> 00:22:36,254
small story within the big story. And I

487
00:22:36,254 --> 00:22:38,598
think that's what's happening in this

488
00:22:38,598 --> 00:22:41,542
book, awakening to justice, is that we

489
00:22:41,542 --> 00:22:45,234
find these mainly three historical

490
00:22:45,234 --> 00:22:49,198
figures, and they are the small story

491
00:22:49,198 --> 00:22:52,150
embedded in the much larger story of

492
00:22:52,150 --> 00:22:55,678
abolition. What you do with people who are

493
00:22:55,678 --> 00:22:57,422
emancipated, what does freedom truly mean?

494
00:22:57,422 --> 00:22:59,470
How do you support that freedom? That's a

495
00:22:59,470 --> 00:23:01,790
big, big story. And the other part I love

496
00:23:01,790 --> 00:23:04,274
about this story is the international

497
00:23:04,274 --> 00:23:06,614
scope. We're in the Caribbean. We're in

498
00:23:06,614 --> 00:23:09,294
Jamaica, not just the United States. And

499
00:23:09,294 --> 00:23:11,766
that really is the story of slavery, too.

500
00:23:11,766 --> 00:23:15,190
It's an entire atlantic world, not just

501
00:23:15,190 --> 00:23:19,254
what became the United States. And so that

502
00:23:19,254 --> 00:23:21,894
adds another layer of complexity and

503
00:23:21,894 --> 00:23:24,046
bigness to this story. So how do you begin

504
00:23:24,046 --> 00:23:26,012
to wrap your head around that? Well, it's

505
00:23:26,012 --> 00:23:27,980
not by trying to tell the whole thing.

506
00:23:27,980 --> 00:23:31,028
It's by zooming in on the experiences of

507
00:23:31,028 --> 00:23:34,972
these folks, on the literal daily journal

508
00:23:34,972 --> 00:23:39,852
entries, the handwriting, the thoughts,

509
00:23:39,852 --> 00:23:43,620
the prayers of this person. Really

510
00:23:43,620 --> 00:23:49,428
intimate, micro fine grained detail that

511
00:23:49,428 --> 00:23:52,164
ironically and sort of counterintuitively

512
00:23:52,164 --> 00:23:54,332
help us understand a much bigger picture

513
00:23:54,332 --> 00:23:57,860
and a much bigger story. And that help us,

514
00:23:57,860 --> 00:24:00,364
Jamar, I would say to help us to know that

515
00:24:00,364 --> 00:24:03,908
these were real people, just like we are

516
00:24:03,908 --> 00:24:09,356
people who had struggles with daily tasks

517
00:24:09,356 --> 00:24:14,372
or illness or family issues. Right. And

518
00:24:14,372 --> 00:24:16,596
so, as they're dealing with the big issues

519
00:24:16,596 --> 00:24:20,940
around them, then we can identify another

520
00:24:20,940 --> 00:24:23,940
direct connection between 200 years ago

521
00:24:23,940 --> 00:24:26,966
and today because, you know, they're

522
00:24:26,966 --> 00:24:30,310
people with the struggles that we have. I

523
00:24:30,310 --> 00:24:32,926
love that position because I think the

524
00:24:32,926 --> 00:24:35,342
power of the small story is reminding us

525
00:24:35,342 --> 00:24:37,918
of the humanity of the people in there.

526
00:24:37,918 --> 00:24:40,470
And so often in this justice work,

527
00:24:40,470 --> 00:24:43,574
especially racial justice, people have, in

528
00:24:43,574 --> 00:24:46,150
so many words, expressed the idea of, who

529
00:24:46,150 --> 00:24:48,366
am I? You know, I don't have any power.

530
00:24:48,366 --> 00:24:49,742
There's nothing special about me. I don't

531
00:24:49,742 --> 00:24:52,656
have any special skills. Possible part

532
00:24:52,656 --> 00:24:56,304
could I play in such a big issue like

533
00:24:56,304 --> 00:24:59,288
abolition or fighting racism today? And

534
00:24:59,288 --> 00:25:01,664
these stories, these journal entries in

535
00:25:01,664 --> 00:25:03,728
particular remind us, like, hey, it's

536
00:25:03,728 --> 00:25:06,616
normal folks. It's everyday folks just

537
00:25:06,616 --> 00:25:08,764
like you and me, who can make a big

538
00:25:08,764 --> 00:25:11,888
difference. I feel like you just gave the

539
00:25:11,888 --> 00:25:14,204
tagline from my podcast. Thank you there,

540
00:25:14,204 --> 00:25:17,424
Jamar. Yes. I mean, it is this collective

541
00:25:17,424 --> 00:25:20,780
effort. It's this massive global situation

542
00:25:20,780 --> 00:25:22,740
that's gone on for years with a lot of

543
00:25:22,740 --> 00:25:26,236
nuance, depending on who was colonizing,

544
00:25:26,236 --> 00:25:29,284
who was enslaving who. And, you know,

545
00:25:29,284 --> 00:25:31,684
like, when I lived. I lived both in

546
00:25:31,684 --> 00:25:33,492
Indonesia and in northern South America.

547
00:25:33,492 --> 00:25:35,700
And there were some connections. There

548
00:25:35,700 --> 00:25:37,876
were Dutch colonized Indonesians, and

549
00:25:37,876 --> 00:25:39,804
there were people brought from Indonesia

550
00:25:39,804 --> 00:25:42,836
by ship to northern South America to, you

551
00:25:42,836 --> 00:25:44,316
know, countries that were east of

552
00:25:44,316 --> 00:25:46,236
Venezuela, where I grew up. And. And

553
00:25:46,236 --> 00:25:49,016
there's a lot of nuance around how places

554
00:25:49,016 --> 00:25:51,504
got, you know, emancipated, enslaved

555
00:25:51,504 --> 00:25:55,088
people. So I was in Rio in November and

556
00:25:55,088 --> 00:25:56,760
talking with some. A friend there who

557
00:25:56,760 --> 00:25:59,200
lives in Copacabana, and she was, you

558
00:25:59,200 --> 00:26:01,952
know, talking about how when Brazil

559
00:26:01,952 --> 00:26:03,384
emancipated, it was like, it's just a

560
00:26:03,384 --> 00:26:04,872
document. I think it was like, Princess

561
00:26:04,872 --> 00:26:06,000
Isabella or somebody just wrote this

562
00:26:06,000 --> 00:26:07,720
thing, and it's like, wow, you live in a

563
00:26:07,720 --> 00:26:09,784
nation that literally fought a war over

564
00:26:09,784 --> 00:26:12,496
this and other places, just signed a

565
00:26:12,496 --> 00:26:14,816
document. So the nuance of, was it Dutch,

566
00:26:14,816 --> 00:26:16,920
was it portuguese? Was it british? Where

567
00:26:16,920 --> 00:26:19,824
was it in the world who was enslaved? It

568
00:26:19,824 --> 00:26:23,104
can feel so overwhelming. But I love what

569
00:26:23,104 --> 00:26:25,440
you're saying, that every one person

570
00:26:25,440 --> 00:26:27,760
joined in a collective effort, shoulder to

571
00:26:27,760 --> 00:26:30,408
shoulder with others, is how we make a

572
00:26:30,408 --> 00:26:32,176
difference. And I do want to bring in the

573
00:26:32,176 --> 00:26:33,840
faith element, because this is sort of

574
00:26:33,840 --> 00:26:36,184
your expertise, Jamar. You wrote this

575
00:26:36,184 --> 00:26:38,552
amazing book, the color of compromise, and

576
00:26:38,552 --> 00:26:40,624
I would love for you to sort of help us

577
00:26:40,624 --> 00:26:42,712
understand how faith intersects with the

578
00:26:42,712 --> 00:26:44,656
pursuit of justice in these narratives of

579
00:26:44,656 --> 00:26:47,924
the abolitionists. That you've studied,

580
00:26:47,924 --> 00:26:50,796
whether you're looking at abolitionism, or

581
00:26:50,796 --> 00:26:55,036
even the US civil war. A lot of the people

582
00:26:55,036 --> 00:26:57,428
who were fighting for black emancipation,

583
00:26:57,428 --> 00:27:00,444
full rights, full inclusion, went back to

584
00:27:00,444 --> 00:27:03,264
what we commonly refer to as the golden

585
00:27:03,264 --> 00:27:06,784
rule. Treat others the way you want to be

586
00:27:06,784 --> 00:27:09,652
treated, or the way Jesus said it, love

587
00:27:09,652 --> 00:27:11,044
the Lord your God with all your heart,

588
00:27:11,044 --> 00:27:13,338
soul, mind, and strength, and love your

589
00:27:13,338 --> 00:27:17,002
neighbor as yourself. So they were

590
00:27:17,002 --> 00:27:20,666
applying a very simple but profound, and I

591
00:27:20,666 --> 00:27:23,122
would say universal. You can sort of find

592
00:27:23,122 --> 00:27:27,202
this principle in any religion of treating

593
00:27:27,202 --> 00:27:29,074
others how you want to be treated. They

594
00:27:29,074 --> 00:27:31,706
were applying that not just on an

595
00:27:31,706 --> 00:27:34,890
individual, interpersonal level, but on a

596
00:27:34,890 --> 00:27:37,146
societal, structural, institutional level,

597
00:27:37,146 --> 00:27:39,894
which I think is the part a lot of people

598
00:27:39,894 --> 00:27:43,886
struggle with. It's not a strange concept

599
00:27:43,886 --> 00:27:46,198
for a lot of people that we should be

600
00:27:46,198 --> 00:27:48,934
nice, that we should be kind to others

601
00:27:48,934 --> 00:27:50,838
around us. I mean, I hope that's not a

602
00:27:50,838 --> 00:27:53,718
strange concept, right? I think it is a

603
00:27:53,718 --> 00:27:55,718
bit more of a challenge for folks when

604
00:27:55,718 --> 00:27:57,918
we're thinking about these larger issues

605
00:27:57,918 --> 00:28:00,590
of race, of class, of gender, and applying

606
00:28:00,590 --> 00:28:02,478
that same principle, because it gets very

607
00:28:02,478 --> 00:28:04,638
complicated very quickly. Right? You were

608
00:28:04,638 --> 00:28:07,126
naming some of the nuances and differences

609
00:28:07,126 --> 00:28:09,230
between who was colonizing who and when

610
00:28:09,230 --> 00:28:12,284
and how things happened. Well, that

611
00:28:12,284 --> 00:28:15,612
happens even just on a single nation

612
00:28:15,612 --> 00:28:17,228
level. If you think about the size of a

613
00:28:17,228 --> 00:28:19,708
country like the United States, with 50

614
00:28:19,708 --> 00:28:22,404
different states, a massive geography, and

615
00:28:22,404 --> 00:28:24,492
many, many different cultures, and a

616
00:28:24,492 --> 00:28:27,548
nation in many ways of immigrants. Right?

617
00:28:27,548 --> 00:28:31,172
So the complexity ramps up real, real

618
00:28:31,172 --> 00:28:36,044
quickly. But I think the theological, the

619
00:28:36,044 --> 00:28:38,198
christian principle of loving your

620
00:28:38,198 --> 00:28:41,766
neighbor as yourself is still applicable

621
00:28:41,766 --> 00:28:44,558
in that situation. And what it forces us

622
00:28:44,558 --> 00:28:49,078
to do is to try to perceive the world from

623
00:28:49,078 --> 00:28:51,078
another person's perspective, which is

624
00:28:51,078 --> 00:28:53,190
what a world of difference podcast is all

625
00:28:53,190 --> 00:28:57,654
about. Right? So I think in some ways, the

626
00:28:57,654 --> 00:29:02,310
whole theme of this show is putting that

627
00:29:02,310 --> 00:29:06,574
theology into action and saying, I know my

628
00:29:06,574 --> 00:29:09,054
life and I experience things from my

629
00:29:09,054 --> 00:29:11,046
perspective. And so I can see, you know,

630
00:29:11,046 --> 00:29:13,190
different struggles and different

631
00:29:13,190 --> 00:29:15,878
privileges I have. But if I really try to

632
00:29:15,878 --> 00:29:18,414
get inside someone else's position,

633
00:29:18,414 --> 00:29:21,062
someone else's point of view, then, number

634
00:29:21,062 --> 00:29:23,102
one, I can't do that unless I have some

635
00:29:23,102 --> 00:29:26,054
sort of proximity. I call it priestly

636
00:29:26,054 --> 00:29:29,390
proximity. You know, a pastor, in the best

637
00:29:29,390 --> 00:29:31,910
sense of the word, is close to the people

638
00:29:31,910 --> 00:29:34,556
they serve, and then they know their

639
00:29:34,556 --> 00:29:37,092
needs, right, and can minister to those

640
00:29:37,092 --> 00:29:39,700
needs in the same way. We need to get

641
00:29:39,700 --> 00:29:42,452
proximate, as Bryan Stevenson of the equal

642
00:29:42,452 --> 00:29:43,748
Justice Initiative would say, we need to

643
00:29:43,748 --> 00:29:47,068
get proximate with people who are on the

644
00:29:47,068 --> 00:29:49,564
margins and suffering. And when we do

645
00:29:49,564 --> 00:29:51,684
that, we have a better sense of what

646
00:29:51,684 --> 00:29:53,260
they're struggling with. And then we can

647
00:29:53,260 --> 00:29:55,828
come alongside and love our neighbor

648
00:29:55,828 --> 00:29:58,568
through actions, and not just through

649
00:29:58,568 --> 00:30:04,680
words or thoughts and prayers. Hash

650
00:30:04,680 --> 00:30:05,656
thoughtsandprayers. We're winning a little

651
00:30:05,656 --> 00:30:07,336
more than that, aren't we? It's kind of.

652
00:30:07,336 --> 00:30:10,976
If you're. If you know, you know, Doug,

653
00:30:10,976 --> 00:30:13,288
I'd love for you to answer this for us.

654
00:30:13,288 --> 00:30:15,528
What. What role did faith communities play

655
00:30:15,528 --> 00:30:17,600
in the abolition movement, from your

656
00:30:17,600 --> 00:30:19,784
perspective? And how do you see religious

657
00:30:19,784 --> 00:30:21,800
institutions engaging in social justice

658
00:30:21,800 --> 00:30:27,082
issues today? Yeah, abolitionism really

659
00:30:27,082 --> 00:30:30,754
cannot be understood. Us abolitionism, or

660
00:30:30,754 --> 00:30:33,066
british, for that matter, without the

661
00:30:33,066 --> 00:30:36,274
faith perspective, really. Those people

662
00:30:36,274 --> 00:30:42,186
who were most central to abolition either

663
00:30:42,186 --> 00:30:45,290
came from religious backgrounds or

664
00:30:45,290 --> 00:30:49,938
themselves were formed, based. Their

665
00:30:49,938 --> 00:30:51,810
foundation was in a theological

666
00:30:51,810 --> 00:30:53,906
perspective. Jamaras mentioned one of the

667
00:30:53,906 --> 00:30:56,554
ideas, which is this concept of the golden

668
00:30:56,554 --> 00:30:58,802
rule. There's also the idea that all

669
00:30:58,802 --> 00:31:00,962
people are created in God's image. It's

670
00:31:00,962 --> 00:31:03,914
something that is very central. They

671
00:31:03,914 --> 00:31:08,274
repeat this constantly. There's a verse in

672
00:31:08,274 --> 00:31:11,722
acts that says, all humanity is made of

673
00:31:11,722 --> 00:31:14,922
one blood, and this sense that we're all

674
00:31:14,922 --> 00:31:17,546
together in this. There's the story in the

675
00:31:17,546 --> 00:31:21,714
book of revelation where it says that all

676
00:31:21,714 --> 00:31:24,254
tribes and peoples and nations will come

677
00:31:24,254 --> 00:31:28,274
together at the end of time. So all of

678
00:31:28,274 --> 00:31:31,466
these theological concepts were central to

679
00:31:31,466 --> 00:31:35,290
what it meant to be abolitionists, and

680
00:31:35,290 --> 00:31:38,050
they would repeat these. In fact, many of

681
00:31:38,050 --> 00:31:40,890
the abolitionist meetings were more like

682
00:31:40,890 --> 00:31:44,466
revival meetings and prayer meetings. Most

683
00:31:44,466 --> 00:31:46,866
of these people had experienced camp

684
00:31:46,866 --> 00:31:49,288
meetings, outdoor religious assemblies

685
00:31:49,288 --> 00:31:53,304
themselves, and they manifested this in

686
00:31:53,304 --> 00:31:56,676
abolition. The largest abolition meetings

687
00:31:56,676 --> 00:32:00,588
in the country were held under a huge tent

688
00:32:00,588 --> 00:32:02,956
that had also been used for Charles

689
00:32:02,956 --> 00:32:06,284
Finney's revivals. The same tent. And so

690
00:32:06,284 --> 00:32:09,500
there's this connection between this

691
00:32:09,500 --> 00:32:12,260
social justice movement and people of

692
00:32:12,260 --> 00:32:17,904
faith. Well. The scriptures haven't

693
00:32:17,904 --> 00:32:22,308
changed today. We still believe.

694
00:32:22,308 --> 00:32:24,364
Christians still believe that all people

695
00:32:24,364 --> 00:32:27,172
are created in God's image. We still

696
00:32:27,172 --> 00:32:29,532
believe that there is, if you will quote,

697
00:32:29,532 --> 00:32:33,668
one blood. We're all together in this. We

698
00:32:33,668 --> 00:32:36,068
still think that God's going to. Bring all

699
00:32:36,068 --> 00:32:38,300
things together, all tribes, languages,

700
00:32:38,300 --> 00:32:43,964
and peoples. And so, in my sense, as a

701
00:32:43,964 --> 00:32:46,778
theologian, as a historian who's also a

702
00:32:46,778 --> 00:32:50,246
theologian, I think that we are called to

703
00:32:50,246 --> 00:32:53,070
continue that task, not just christians,

704
00:32:53,070 --> 00:32:58,462
but people of all faiths coming together,

705
00:32:58,462 --> 00:33:02,674
finding ways to do justice, love mercy, be

706
00:33:02,674 --> 00:33:06,742
humble, as we work together on the tasks

707
00:33:06,742 --> 00:33:10,126
that are before us, which include racial

708
00:33:10,126 --> 00:33:13,526
justice. And as you've mentioned on your

709
00:33:13,526 --> 00:33:15,954
podcast, many other issues of justice as

710
00:33:15,954 --> 00:33:20,550
well. Yeah. So, so fascinating. Um, you

711
00:33:20,550 --> 00:33:22,398
know, I know some people listening

712
00:33:22,398 --> 00:33:24,382
probably have this question in their mind,

713
00:33:24,382 --> 00:33:27,510
especially if they're in a us context. And

714
00:33:27,510 --> 00:33:29,062
maybe some of the narratives. They've been

715
00:33:29,062 --> 00:33:30,558
told, this is. This is the thing, right?

716
00:33:30,558 --> 00:33:33,286
One of the things I train on globally is

717
00:33:33,286 --> 00:33:35,262
around communication for leadership

718
00:33:35,262 --> 00:33:38,110
development. And all of us have these

719
00:33:38,110 --> 00:33:39,854
filters. We're like these story making

720
00:33:39,854 --> 00:33:41,646
machines. So whatever family we grew up

721
00:33:41,646 --> 00:33:43,134
in, whatever culture we grew up in,

722
00:33:43,134 --> 00:33:44,958
whatever languages we speak, faith,

723
00:33:44,958 --> 00:33:46,918
community, all of that, they're giving us

724
00:33:46,918 --> 00:33:49,654
this unique narrative that we filter all

725
00:33:49,654 --> 00:33:51,766
we're hearing through, and it's as unique

726
00:33:51,766 --> 00:33:53,758
as our fingerprint. So I have twins.

727
00:33:53,758 --> 00:33:56,902
They're 16. They're night and day, and

728
00:33:56,902 --> 00:33:58,142
they have very different filters, even

729
00:33:58,142 --> 00:33:59,702
though they were born six minutes apart in

730
00:33:59,702 --> 00:34:02,358
the same family, right? And so I know some

731
00:34:02,358 --> 00:34:05,582
people have been fed narratives, and even

732
00:34:05,582 --> 00:34:07,558
we can see the historical evidence of

733
00:34:07,558 --> 00:34:11,300
this, of taking actual scriptures that we

734
00:34:11,300 --> 00:34:17,364
all hold dear and either twisting them or

735
00:34:17,364 --> 00:34:20,724
interpreting them in such a way as to

736
00:34:20,724 --> 00:34:23,916
advocate for enslaved peoples back when

737
00:34:23,916 --> 00:34:26,668
the civil war, for example, was going on.

738
00:34:26,668 --> 00:34:28,524
So for those who have this big question

739
00:34:28,524 --> 00:34:30,956
mark over their head, how can the same

740
00:34:30,956 --> 00:34:34,424
scriptures liberate and at the same time

741
00:34:34,424 --> 00:34:36,556
condone enslaving people and bringing them

742
00:34:36,556 --> 00:34:38,826
to forced labor camps against their own

743
00:34:38,826 --> 00:34:43,522
will? Jamar, do you want to take that one?

744
00:34:43,522 --> 00:34:45,306
That's the age old question, and I'm sure

745
00:34:45,306 --> 00:34:48,594
Doug has a lot to say and contribute on

746
00:34:48,594 --> 00:34:51,490
this. One of the things that is apparent

747
00:34:51,490 --> 00:34:55,578
to me from the history of racism and

748
00:34:55,578 --> 00:34:56,962
Christianity in the United States, and I

749
00:34:56,962 --> 00:35:00,066
would argue globally, is that the

750
00:35:00,066 --> 00:35:03,458
justification follows the action. The

751
00:35:03,458 --> 00:35:05,202
justification follows the action. So, in

752
00:35:05,202 --> 00:35:09,630
the case of us race based chattel slavery,

753
00:35:09,630 --> 00:35:10,914
slaveholders were going to get their

754
00:35:10,914 --> 00:35:13,806
money. They were going to find laborers.

755
00:35:13,806 --> 00:35:15,726
They were going to increase their bottom

756
00:35:15,726 --> 00:35:18,022
line by not paying them. And then they

757
00:35:18,022 --> 00:35:19,846
were going to come up with the rationale

758
00:35:19,846 --> 00:35:23,142
and the reasoning to justify it. And I

759
00:35:23,142 --> 00:35:26,542
think that's often what happens with

760
00:35:26,542 --> 00:35:29,630
christian justifications for slavery.

761
00:35:29,630 --> 00:35:33,754
Racism, white supremacy, is there is some

762
00:35:33,754 --> 00:35:36,392
social, economic, media, cultural

763
00:35:36,392 --> 00:35:39,072
advantage that they want, that they're

764
00:35:39,072 --> 00:35:42,088
pursuing, and then they come along and

765
00:35:42,088 --> 00:35:47,336
create a theology to back it up. And so

766
00:35:47,336 --> 00:35:49,872
there's Frederick Douglass's famous line

767
00:35:49,872 --> 00:35:52,728
in the appendix of his autobiography, that

768
00:35:52,728 --> 00:35:55,040
between the Christianity of Christ and the

769
00:35:55,040 --> 00:35:56,608
Christianity of this land, I see the

770
00:35:56,608 --> 00:35:58,976
widest possible difference. And I think

771
00:35:58,976 --> 00:36:02,922
what Douglass is getting at there is this.

772
00:36:02,922 --> 00:36:05,666
Slaveholder Christianity is exactly that.

773
00:36:05,666 --> 00:36:08,762
It is developed by people who were

774
00:36:08,762 --> 00:36:13,402
advocating for slavery in one of its most

775
00:36:13,402 --> 00:36:16,170
pernicious forms lifelong, based on the

776
00:36:16,170 --> 00:36:18,626
status of the mother, based on the color

777
00:36:18,626 --> 00:36:21,010
of your skin, those kinds of things. And

778
00:36:21,010 --> 00:36:23,082
then they went back and talked about

779
00:36:23,082 --> 00:36:26,378
things like the curse of ham, or

780
00:36:26,378 --> 00:36:28,130
ironically, that very passage that Doug

781
00:36:28,130 --> 00:36:32,234
was citing before that we're all of one

782
00:36:32,234 --> 00:36:35,034
blood. There's a passage in acts 1726 that

783
00:36:35,034 --> 00:36:37,346
said, God appointed different times and

784
00:36:37,346 --> 00:36:39,978
places so that we might see God. Right.

785
00:36:39,978 --> 00:36:43,922
There were people who used that line, God

786
00:36:43,922 --> 00:36:46,074
set people in different times and places

787
00:36:46,074 --> 00:36:49,770
to justify racial segregation and said God

788
00:36:49,770 --> 00:36:52,322
did that on purpose, that he separated us.

789
00:36:52,322 --> 00:36:54,682
So what God has created, we shouldn't try

790
00:36:54,682 --> 00:36:57,134
to bring together through racial

791
00:36:57,134 --> 00:37:01,134
integration. So. But that often came after

792
00:37:01,134 --> 00:37:04,174
the segregation was already a fact in

793
00:37:04,174 --> 00:37:06,950
society, after slavery was already a fact

794
00:37:06,950 --> 00:37:09,990
in society, after the advantage of this

795
00:37:09,990 --> 00:37:13,054
social arrangement was already being. Was

796
00:37:13,054 --> 00:37:14,990
already giving benefits to some that they

797
00:37:14,990 --> 00:37:20,182
didn't want to give up. Yeah, we see that

798
00:37:20,182 --> 00:37:23,910
also in terms of how, you know, patriarchy

799
00:37:23,910 --> 00:37:26,198
has been a lens through which the

800
00:37:26,198 --> 00:37:29,274
scriptures have been read. And so very

801
00:37:29,274 --> 00:37:32,462
similar tactic, where inherently there are

802
00:37:32,462 --> 00:37:34,510
just some who believe that men are

803
00:37:34,510 --> 00:37:36,166
superior to women and should rule over

804
00:37:36,166 --> 00:37:38,094
them and therefore have interpreted

805
00:37:38,094 --> 00:37:40,086
scriptures to rule over other human

806
00:37:40,086 --> 00:37:42,198
beings. But what you said, Doug, earlier,

807
00:37:42,198 --> 00:37:44,374
about this whole imago, we're all made in

808
00:37:44,374 --> 00:37:46,974
God's image. Like, when you see that in

809
00:37:46,974 --> 00:37:49,630
Genesis 127, and you understand this is

810
00:37:49,630 --> 00:37:51,950
the core part of what these scriptures are

811
00:37:51,950 --> 00:37:55,006
saying for people of three major world

812
00:37:55,006 --> 00:37:56,590
religions. You know, Christianity,

813
00:37:56,590 --> 00:38:01,192
Judaism, and. And Islam both take these

814
00:38:01,192 --> 00:38:03,720
genesis scriptures very seriously. And so

815
00:38:03,720 --> 00:38:07,048
to understand that our common humanity

816
00:38:07,048 --> 00:38:08,936
deserves human dignity and respect, it

817
00:38:08,936 --> 00:38:11,528
would make us work for human rights. But

818
00:38:11,528 --> 00:38:13,400
at the same time, people can twist those

819
00:38:13,400 --> 00:38:16,560
things for other reasons, for even modern

820
00:38:16,560 --> 00:38:18,304
day corporate greed and that type of

821
00:38:18,304 --> 00:38:21,952
thing. Right. So, as we're sort of kind of

822
00:38:21,952 --> 00:38:23,792
driving this home, I do want to give each

823
00:38:23,792 --> 00:38:26,750
of you a chance to sort of help us

824
00:38:26,750 --> 00:38:28,526
understand what calls to action you would

825
00:38:28,526 --> 00:38:30,834
like us to come away with. I know as

826
00:38:30,834 --> 00:38:33,686
historians, you don't like to predict the

827
00:38:33,686 --> 00:38:35,014
future, and I'm not asking you to do

828
00:38:35,014 --> 00:38:36,894
anything like that, but what can we learn

829
00:38:36,894 --> 00:38:40,038
from these abolitionists, in terms of what

830
00:38:40,038 --> 00:38:41,366
you've discovered and written about in

831
00:38:41,366 --> 00:38:44,158
this book that can help us today? Because

832
00:38:44,158 --> 00:38:46,590
we're still facing some similar issues,

833
00:38:46,590 --> 00:38:49,166
and we need to understand how to work

834
00:38:49,166 --> 00:38:51,350
together in such a way as to where we can

835
00:38:51,350 --> 00:38:53,014
overcome these obstacles, and we could see

836
00:38:53,014 --> 00:38:55,080
that happen. What are your calls to action

837
00:38:55,080 --> 00:38:57,512
for us and help us be inspired of. What we

838
00:38:57,512 --> 00:39:03,824
can do together? Well, let me step in. Our

839
00:39:03,824 --> 00:39:08,144
project was, the book is a book written by

840
00:39:08,144 --> 00:39:11,720
ten people, and the actual scholars that

841
00:39:11,720 --> 00:39:14,444
came together was even larger than that.

842
00:39:14,444 --> 00:39:17,984
And the process of doing that, we actually

843
00:39:17,984 --> 00:39:21,692
were able to get a grant, which there are

844
00:39:21,692 --> 00:39:24,464
grants out there that people can apply

845
00:39:24,464 --> 00:39:27,108
for, which allowed us to be able to

846
00:39:27,108 --> 00:39:30,860
gather, to travel to various sites related

847
00:39:30,860 --> 00:39:35,380
to racial justice advocacy and the

848
00:39:35,380 --> 00:39:38,104
traveling, the working together on a

849
00:39:38,104 --> 00:39:41,476
project, writing project. All of this

850
00:39:41,476 --> 00:39:46,036
brought us as scholars, but as people who

851
00:39:46,036 --> 00:39:48,976
were, as Jamar mentioned earlier, who were

852
00:39:48,976 --> 00:39:51,920
very different from one another together.

853
00:39:51,920 --> 00:39:54,124
And we shared our stories with one

854
00:39:54,124 --> 00:39:58,080
another. We learned about who we were as

855
00:39:58,080 --> 00:40:00,728
people and what our experiences were,

856
00:40:00,728 --> 00:40:03,728
positive and negative. Okay. Why? I just

857
00:40:03,728 --> 00:40:07,544
think we can all do this. It didn't take

858
00:40:07,544 --> 00:40:11,040
rocket science for us to just gather and

859
00:40:11,040 --> 00:40:14,584
to talk to one another. We can do that,

860
00:40:14,584 --> 00:40:17,064
but we have to. The question is, are we

861
00:40:17,064 --> 00:40:19,400
intentional about it? Because there are so

862
00:40:19,400 --> 00:40:21,944
many ways in our own culture that we've

863
00:40:21,944 --> 00:40:25,840
been separated. Some intent, some were

864
00:40:25,840 --> 00:40:27,520
intentional segregation efforts, but

865
00:40:27,520 --> 00:40:30,512
others just by happenstance or where we

866
00:40:30,512 --> 00:40:35,840
live. And so it's really, it behooves us

867
00:40:35,840 --> 00:40:39,040
to take the initiative to be intentional

868
00:40:39,040 --> 00:40:41,384
with people who are different. And when we

869
00:40:41,384 --> 00:40:45,576
do so, then we glean, we gain, we grow.

870
00:40:45,576 --> 00:40:49,336
And I think that's what I take away from

871
00:40:49,336 --> 00:40:51,496
this whole project and this book and from

872
00:40:51,496 --> 00:40:55,272
the abolitionists themselves. Awesome.

873
00:40:55,272 --> 00:40:59,760
What about you, Jamar? Real concretely, I

874
00:40:59,760 --> 00:41:04,656
would say take pilgrimages together. That

875
00:41:04,656 --> 00:41:08,504
was one of the most powerful aspects of.

876
00:41:08,504 --> 00:41:13,484
Of this project. The book is an edited

877
00:41:13,484 --> 00:41:18,296
volume, fascinating, hard hitting, in

878
00:41:18,296 --> 00:41:21,368
depth, intellectual, but accessible

879
00:41:21,368 --> 00:41:24,472
chapters by various people. But this book

880
00:41:24,472 --> 00:41:29,912
is a product of fellowship. It's a product

881
00:41:29,912 --> 00:41:32,264
of, as it says in proverbs, iron

882
00:41:32,264 --> 00:41:36,764
sharpening iron. And that happened in the

883
00:41:36,764 --> 00:41:40,028
course of going to Oberlin, going to

884
00:41:40,028 --> 00:41:43,188
Washington, DC, going to Benin in West

885
00:41:43,188 --> 00:41:46,548
Africa, places that were significant in

886
00:41:46,548 --> 00:41:49,724
this journal and in the world of slavery

887
00:41:49,724 --> 00:41:52,940
and abolition. And it was the bus rides,

888
00:41:52,940 --> 00:41:55,516
it was the meals, it was the prayers, it

889
00:41:55,516 --> 00:41:59,132
was the singing together that, honestly,

890
00:41:59,132 --> 00:42:03,268
as a participant, it felt like we were

891
00:42:03,268 --> 00:42:07,196
somehow participating in the same kind of

892
00:42:07,196 --> 00:42:10,308
interracial fellowship and solidarity that

893
00:42:10,308 --> 00:42:15,148
knit together this justice community in

894
00:42:15,148 --> 00:42:19,700
over 150 years ago. Right? And now we're

895
00:42:19,700 --> 00:42:21,628
participating in it in some way, shape, or

896
00:42:21,628 --> 00:42:23,980
form now. So what I would encourage folks

897
00:42:23,980 --> 00:42:25,916
to do is, if you haven't already or

898
00:42:25,916 --> 00:42:28,300
haven't in a long time, get together with

899
00:42:28,300 --> 00:42:32,836
a group of folks, a book club, a church

900
00:42:32,836 --> 00:42:35,804
group, a civic group, and go to some of

901
00:42:35,804 --> 00:42:39,636
the sites in your own area that are

902
00:42:39,636 --> 00:42:41,984
significant, have some significance

903
00:42:41,984 --> 00:42:44,644
historically. Pay attention not only to

904
00:42:44,644 --> 00:42:47,796
the content of what you're studying, but

905
00:42:47,796 --> 00:42:49,476
to the connections that you're forming.

906
00:42:49,476 --> 00:42:51,724
And I really think that forming those

907
00:42:51,724 --> 00:42:54,420
strong connections is what is going to

908
00:42:54,420 --> 00:42:57,444
give us longevity, perseverance, and

909
00:42:57,444 --> 00:43:00,184
resilience in this ongoing struggle for

910
00:43:00,184 --> 00:43:05,356
justice. Both great calls to action. So

911
00:43:05,356 --> 00:43:07,820
exciting. And we are going to be doing a

912
00:43:07,820 --> 00:43:09,532
giveaway for your, a couple giveaways for

913
00:43:09,532 --> 00:43:12,300
your book, thanks to IVP press, who've

914
00:43:12,300 --> 00:43:13,756
generously given us a couple copies to

915
00:43:13,756 --> 00:43:15,612
give away. And I do hope people do join

916
00:43:15,612 --> 00:43:18,300
together in groups to study this book and

917
00:43:18,300 --> 00:43:20,060
form a community because I absolutely

918
00:43:20,060 --> 00:43:21,420
agree. Coming together with our

919
00:43:21,420 --> 00:43:22,612
differences is how we make a difference.

920
00:43:22,612 --> 00:43:25,328
And so, and crossing borders together and

921
00:43:25,328 --> 00:43:27,776
meals together, all of those things are

922
00:43:27,776 --> 00:43:30,448
how these conversations really form and

923
00:43:30,448 --> 00:43:32,376
take place. So thank you so much to both

924
00:43:32,376 --> 00:43:35,784
of you for the, you know, the labor of

925
00:43:35,784 --> 00:43:37,944
love that this book is for all of us to

926
00:43:37,944 --> 00:43:40,432
read and to get it into our hands, to

927
00:43:40,432 --> 00:43:43,440
inspire us from history and from someone's

928
00:43:43,440 --> 00:43:46,144
journal that was discovered high up on a

929
00:43:46,144 --> 00:43:49,616
shelf in this very true crime kind of way

930
00:43:49,616 --> 00:43:51,464
to help us come together on this

931
00:43:51,464 --> 00:43:53,416
conversation today in 2024, because we

932
00:43:53,416 --> 00:43:55,824
need it now more than we ever have some

933
00:43:55,824 --> 00:43:57,792
ways, because it's really time to solve

934
00:43:57,792 --> 00:43:59,256
some of these issues that have been going

935
00:43:59,256 --> 00:44:02,264
on for too many generations. So thank you

936
00:44:02,264 --> 00:44:03,696
both. We're going to also have you hang

937
00:44:03,696 --> 00:44:05,616
out for our Patreon supporters for another

938
00:44:05,616 --> 00:44:07,528
question after this. But how can people

939
00:44:07,528 --> 00:44:08,952
find you and more of your writing? I'll

940
00:44:08,952 --> 00:44:11,000
let you say those couple of things, and

941
00:44:11,000 --> 00:44:15,064
then we'll close out. Well, one thing, if

942
00:44:15,064 --> 00:44:18,024
you're interested in this project, there's

943
00:44:18,024 --> 00:44:21,624
a website called awakeningtojustice.com.

944
00:44:21,624 --> 00:44:25,464
And on that website are free resources,

945
00:44:25,464 --> 00:44:30,488
including a discussion guide for the book.

946
00:44:30,488 --> 00:44:35,344
For each chapter, there are sermon ideas,

947
00:44:35,344 --> 00:44:40,704
music idea, worship song ideas, film

948
00:44:40,704 --> 00:44:43,264
documentary, a 35 minutes film documentary

949
00:44:43,264 --> 00:44:45,964
that's been made that goes along with this

950
00:44:45,964 --> 00:44:48,224
project. And all of those are available on

951
00:44:48,224 --> 00:44:55,280
the website. Yes. And for me, I have a

952
00:44:55,280 --> 00:44:57,816
substack called footnotes. You can go to

953
00:44:57,816 --> 00:45:00,016
jamartisbee dot substack.com. Would love

954
00:45:00,016 --> 00:45:02,968
for you to subscribe. You can be a free

955
00:45:02,968 --> 00:45:06,272
subscriber or support my work. And then

956
00:45:06,272 --> 00:45:08,824
also, along with what Doug just mentioned,

957
00:45:08,824 --> 00:45:12,792
the website, you know, this is great for

958
00:45:12,792 --> 00:45:15,416
church groups to come around or book

959
00:45:15,416 --> 00:45:18,492
studies to come around and study. Think

960
00:45:18,492 --> 00:45:21,972
together about this, host a viewing or a

961
00:45:21,972 --> 00:45:24,580
screening of the film, have a discussion

962
00:45:24,580 --> 00:45:27,764
afterwards, and see how your neighbors

963
00:45:27,764 --> 00:45:31,612
might join in the work of justice. Well,

964
00:45:31,612 --> 00:45:33,756
thank you, Jamara and Doug and everybody.

965
00:45:33,756 --> 00:45:36,108
Pick up a copy of this book or join our

966
00:45:36,108 --> 00:45:38,508
giveaway to get one. It's awakening to

967
00:45:38,508 --> 00:45:40,132
justice. Faithful voices from the

968
00:45:40,132 --> 00:45:41,212
abolitionist past. Thank you both for

969
00:45:41,212 --> 00:45:43,640
being on the show today. Thank you. Thank

970
00:45:43,640 --> 00:45:46,712
you, Lori. These two men writing this book

971
00:45:46,712 --> 00:45:49,880
and bringing it to our attention. Voices

972
00:45:49,880 --> 00:45:52,840
from the past, a history that is so

973
00:45:52,840 --> 00:45:56,176
relevant today. And we can learn so much

974
00:45:56,176 --> 00:45:58,600
from those who have gone before us, both

975
00:45:58,600 --> 00:46:01,560
in terms of making a difference today in

976
00:46:01,560 --> 00:46:06,800
areas of racism and areas of breaking down

977
00:46:06,800 --> 00:46:08,912
barriers such as caste in all of the

978
00:46:08,912 --> 00:46:11,814
different societies. I'm mentioning the

979
00:46:11,814 --> 00:46:13,390
word cast because if you haven't read

980
00:46:13,390 --> 00:46:16,094
Isabel Wilkerson's book or even seen the

981
00:46:16,094 --> 00:46:18,774
movie origin regarding the process of her

982
00:46:18,774 --> 00:46:20,502
writing this book and the difference

983
00:46:20,502 --> 00:46:23,806
between understanding the elements of

984
00:46:23,806 --> 00:46:26,238
racism, but also how sometimes it's not

985
00:46:26,238 --> 00:46:30,342
even necessarily about race, reasons we

986
00:46:30,342 --> 00:46:32,838
other people in society or place

987
00:46:32,838 --> 00:46:35,046
hierarchies in there. And occasionally

988
00:46:35,046 --> 00:46:36,926
when you add the layer of racism, when you

989
00:46:36,926 --> 00:46:39,214
add the layer of enslaved peoples on top

990
00:46:39,214 --> 00:46:42,472
of that, it is so many layers to unpack in

991
00:46:42,472 --> 00:46:45,296
a book about what they've written about,

992
00:46:45,296 --> 00:46:47,760
which is awakening to justice and about

993
00:46:47,760 --> 00:46:49,096
abolition and the stories from the past

994
00:46:49,096 --> 00:46:51,560
and what people were overcoming. Whenever

995
00:46:51,560 --> 00:46:54,936
you treat other human beings as less than

996
00:46:54,936 --> 00:46:57,528
human, without dignity, without respect,

997
00:46:57,528 --> 00:46:59,504
and all the ways that that could be done

998
00:46:59,504 --> 00:47:01,856
and has been done throughout history in

999
00:47:01,856 --> 00:47:04,720
the United States of America and other

1000
00:47:04,720 --> 00:47:08,310
countries in north and South America or

1001
00:47:08,310 --> 00:47:11,062
any other place around the world, then we

1002
00:47:11,062 --> 00:47:14,390
have so much nuance there to unpack. And

1003
00:47:14,390 --> 00:47:17,234
as we face some of the issues we're facing

1004
00:47:17,234 --> 00:47:21,478
today globally, understanding both the

1005
00:47:21,478 --> 00:47:23,206
multicultural aspect of what this

1006
00:47:23,206 --> 00:47:25,358
conversation is about, and certainly these

1007
00:47:25,358 --> 00:47:28,582
two men are just incredible guests to have

1008
00:47:28,582 --> 00:47:30,734
on the show. Doug Stone, with his

1009
00:47:30,734 --> 00:47:32,606
experience in Russia and Korea and

1010
00:47:32,606 --> 00:47:34,046
unpacking some of the intercultural

1011
00:47:34,046 --> 00:47:37,554
aspects of what it even means to be a

1012
00:47:37,554 --> 00:47:40,254
person in his own faith, tradition of

1013
00:47:40,254 --> 00:47:42,346
Christianity or Jamar, and the way he's

1014
00:47:42,346 --> 00:47:43,962
impacted some of the multicultural aspects

1015
00:47:43,962 --> 00:47:46,426
in the United States of America

1016
00:47:46,426 --> 00:47:48,530
specifically. These are nuances to bring

1017
00:47:48,530 --> 00:47:51,650
into the conversation because what has

1018
00:47:51,650 --> 00:47:54,826
happened in the past isn't totally

1019
00:47:54,826 --> 00:47:56,938
detached from what's happening now when it

1020
00:47:56,938 --> 00:48:00,626
comes to any of us standing up for justice

1021
00:48:00,626 --> 00:48:04,350
for all people. And that does actually

1022
00:48:04,350 --> 00:48:07,630
mean all people, all human beings, male,

1023
00:48:07,630 --> 00:48:10,998
female, whatever cultural background or

1024
00:48:10,998 --> 00:48:14,234
race they identify with or socioeconomic

1025
00:48:14,234 --> 00:48:16,462
differences, the ways, like I said, you

1026
00:48:16,462 --> 00:48:18,582
know, that Isabel Wilkerson wrote about in

1027
00:48:18,582 --> 00:48:21,062
her book caste that connected what was

1028
00:48:21,062 --> 00:48:24,446
happening with Adelits in India, who are

1029
00:48:24,446 --> 00:48:26,230
the untouchables, who were having to

1030
00:48:26,230 --> 00:48:28,926
literally scrape out human excrement with

1031
00:48:28,926 --> 00:48:31,062
their own hands, even though they're the

1032
00:48:31,062 --> 00:48:32,966
same race as other people in their own

1033
00:48:32,966 --> 00:48:35,158
country, or what happened in, you know,

1034
00:48:35,158 --> 00:48:37,622
throughout Europe and Germany and

1035
00:48:37,622 --> 00:48:39,974
specifically with the Holocaust, people

1036
00:48:39,974 --> 00:48:43,262
who maybe racially didn't identify

1037
00:48:43,262 --> 00:48:45,894
differently, right? Or, you know, were,

1038
00:48:45,894 --> 00:48:49,174
quote unquote white, you know, appearing,

1039
00:48:49,174 --> 00:48:53,398
presenting and still being exterminated.

1040
00:48:53,398 --> 00:48:55,510
Or you have situations like bringing

1041
00:48:55,510 --> 00:48:57,686
enslaved peoples over from Africa against

1042
00:48:57,686 --> 00:49:00,650
their own will. And certainly the racial

1043
00:49:00,650 --> 00:49:03,066
elements involved in that very stark

1044
00:49:03,066 --> 00:49:06,842
version of racism, which used human bodies

1045
00:49:06,842 --> 00:49:10,354
for free labor, to build wealth for one

1046
00:49:10,354 --> 00:49:12,666
particular race of people, and didn't

1047
00:49:12,666 --> 00:49:15,490
allow, even after enslaved peoples were

1048
00:49:15,490 --> 00:49:18,114
given emancipation, didn't allow them to

1049
00:49:18,114 --> 00:49:20,938
pass on wealth to their own children.

1050
00:49:20,938 --> 00:49:22,386
Certainly racial elements involved in

1051
00:49:22,386 --> 00:49:24,650
that, but also a caste system, right? That

1052
00:49:24,650 --> 00:49:26,026
Isabel Wilkerson was talking about. So,

1053
00:49:26,026 --> 00:49:28,210
once again, even though I'm rendering this

1054
00:49:28,210 --> 00:49:30,130
book, awakening to justice, if you haven't

1055
00:49:30,130 --> 00:49:32,338
read caste, or at least watch the movie

1056
00:49:32,338 --> 00:49:34,170
origins, about how she unpacks that and

1057
00:49:34,170 --> 00:49:36,682
connects that all around the world in ways

1058
00:49:36,682 --> 00:49:38,578
that you wouldn't necessarily connect.

1059
00:49:38,578 --> 00:49:41,266
Dalits in India, what happened in the

1060
00:49:41,266 --> 00:49:42,962
Holocaust, and what's happened in the

1061
00:49:42,962 --> 00:49:44,954
United States of America over time and

1062
00:49:44,954 --> 00:49:48,394
over generations, when we look at enslaved

1063
00:49:48,394 --> 00:49:50,946
peoples, that was 13 generations of people

1064
00:49:50,946 --> 00:49:53,034
that just lived during that portion of

1065
00:49:53,034 --> 00:49:54,754
time. But all the elements that have

1066
00:49:54,754 --> 00:49:58,334
happened since then until now that have

1067
00:49:58,334 --> 00:50:00,558
ripple effects of that. And so looking

1068
00:50:00,558 --> 00:50:03,354
back at people who fought so much for

1069
00:50:03,354 --> 00:50:06,086
abolition and covering these writings in

1070
00:50:06,086 --> 00:50:08,846
the library and something that was just

1071
00:50:08,846 --> 00:50:11,950
tucked away and forgotten and brought out

1072
00:50:11,950 --> 00:50:15,742
for us to understand and look back on at a

1073
00:50:15,742 --> 00:50:18,062
time such as this, when we have

1074
00:50:18,062 --> 00:50:20,006
opportunities to make a difference. So if

1075
00:50:20,006 --> 00:50:22,350
you have not been following Jamar Tisbee

1076
00:50:22,350 --> 00:50:24,464
and his writing and his speaking and his

1077
00:50:24,464 --> 00:50:26,636
work, please do. He's a voice to be

1078
00:50:26,636 --> 00:50:28,380
listened to, and he is making such a

1079
00:50:28,380 --> 00:50:30,492
difference. And also, Doug Stone and the

1080
00:50:30,492 --> 00:50:32,604
difference that they bring together in

1081
00:50:32,604 --> 00:50:35,260
this book, their own unique perspectives,

1082
00:50:35,260 --> 00:50:38,012
even here in this podcast interview, is so

1083
00:50:38,012 --> 00:50:40,644
insightful. So, once again, as always, I'm

1084
00:50:40,644 --> 00:50:42,756
promoting listening to different voices

1085
00:50:42,756 --> 00:50:46,196
because everybody brings a new insight for

1086
00:50:46,196 --> 00:50:47,956
us as we're trying to make a difference

1087
00:50:47,956 --> 00:50:50,036
together around the world and ways that

1088
00:50:50,036 --> 00:50:52,460
bring humans dignity and respect and help

1089
00:50:52,460 --> 00:50:54,944
us understand we have so much more in

1090
00:50:54,944 --> 00:50:57,560
common then we have different. And our

1091
00:50:57,560 --> 00:51:00,424
differences are beautiful. And we want to

1092
00:51:00,424 --> 00:51:02,616
highlight those because it's our different

1093
00:51:02,616 --> 00:51:04,216
perspectives that help each of us think

1094
00:51:04,216 --> 00:51:07,312
more deeply and make a difference together

1095
00:51:07,312 --> 00:51:09,624
in ways we otherwise wouldn't, and at the

1096
00:51:09,624 --> 00:51:11,744
same time, understanding that when we work

1097
00:51:11,744 --> 00:51:13,888
for justice, when we work to make a

1098
00:51:13,888 --> 00:51:16,376
difference together, that we're doing that

1099
00:51:16,376 --> 00:51:18,888
shoulder to shoulder with each other. And

1100
00:51:18,888 --> 00:51:20,928
I really appreciate just having these two

1101
00:51:20,928 --> 00:51:22,856
men speaking into this conversation with

1102
00:51:22,856 --> 00:51:25,806
us today. And so please pick up the book

1103
00:51:25,806 --> 00:51:28,126
awakening to justice. If you have not yet,

1104
00:51:28,126 --> 00:51:29,966
we are going to be having a giveaway, so

1105
00:51:29,966 --> 00:51:34,014
look for details for that on Twitter or X

1106
00:51:34,014 --> 00:51:36,998
and on Instagram. We'll be posting about

1107
00:51:36,998 --> 00:51:40,086
that on our socials. And so would love for

1108
00:51:40,086 --> 00:51:41,870
any of you listening to win a couple of

1109
00:51:41,870 --> 00:51:45,094
books. So look out for that. And if you

1110
00:51:45,094 --> 00:51:47,694
happen to not be one of the winners also

1111
00:51:47,694 --> 00:51:49,854
just consider buying the book. It's

1112
00:51:49,854 --> 00:51:53,252
published by N. Varsity Press, and it is,

1113
00:51:53,252 --> 00:51:54,564
I think, a book that you're really going

1114
00:51:54,564 --> 00:51:57,092
to find insightful, both from the

1115
00:51:57,092 --> 00:51:58,556
historical perspective and what it means

1116
00:51:58,556 --> 00:51:59,996
for us today as we're making a difference

1117
00:51:59,996 --> 00:52:02,732
in conversations around this very topic.

1118
00:52:02,732 --> 00:52:05,588
In the United States of America, in the

1119
00:52:05,588 --> 00:52:09,844
UK, in Australia, in India and Singapore,

1120
00:52:09,844 --> 00:52:11,060
everywhere around the world where you're

1121
00:52:11,060 --> 00:52:12,596
listening, you will gain insights from

1122
00:52:12,596 --> 00:52:14,324
this, even though it's specific to the

1123
00:52:14,324 --> 00:52:16,244
context of the Americas. There's so much

1124
00:52:16,244 --> 00:52:18,028
about this book that really can relate to

1125
00:52:18,028 --> 00:52:20,260
different parts around the world because

1126
00:52:20,260 --> 00:52:23,086
the dialogue around race and as it

1127
00:52:23,086 --> 00:52:25,638
intersects with faith specifically, is a

1128
00:52:25,638 --> 00:52:27,470
conversation we need to keep having as

1129
00:52:27,470 --> 00:52:29,310
we're making a difference together in all

1130
00:52:29,310 --> 00:52:31,222
the parts of the world where we live.

1131
00:52:31,222 --> 00:52:33,182
Thank you so much for being a part of this

1132
00:52:33,182 --> 00:52:34,766
conversation today. Thanks for all the

1133
00:52:34,766 --> 00:52:37,390
work that you're doing wherever you are,

1134
00:52:37,390 --> 00:52:39,238
and I hope that you're taking care of

1135
00:52:39,238 --> 00:52:41,478
yourself. It's another one of those

1136
00:52:41,478 --> 00:52:42,918
podcast episodes where I'm going to

1137
00:52:42,918 --> 00:52:44,926
encourage you to take some time to care

1138
00:52:44,926 --> 00:52:47,118
for yourself because I know many of you

1139
00:52:47,118 --> 00:52:48,814
spend so much time caring for others

1140
00:52:48,814 --> 00:52:51,688
around the world, and we can only give out

1141
00:52:51,688 --> 00:52:54,232
of a cup that's full. So make sure you're

1142
00:52:54,232 --> 00:52:56,656
taking time to just rest. Care for

1143
00:52:56,656 --> 00:52:58,784
yourself in various ways of self care,

1144
00:52:58,784 --> 00:53:00,616
whatever that looks like for you, so that

1145
00:53:00,616 --> 00:53:02,752
you can keep making a difference and as

1146
00:53:02,752 --> 00:53:04,656
always, keep making a difference wherever

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