Transcript
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Welcome to the A World of Difference
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podcast. I'm Lori Adams Brown and this is
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a podcast for those who are different and
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want to make a difference. Today we have a
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couple of authors on the show that have
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written an amazing book that is just being
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released, and the authors we're having on
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the show are Jamar Tisbee and Doug Stone.
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Jamar Tisby is the author of the New York
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Times bestselling book the Color of
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Compromise, which is about the truth about
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the american church's complicity and
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racism, which many of you have read. His
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writing has been featured on CNN, the
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Washington Post, the Atlantic, and the New
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York Times. He's recently featured in the
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documentary God and Country, and he's the
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founder and president of the Witness of
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Black Christian Collective and the co host
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of Pass the Mic podcast. He's a PhD
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candidate in history at the University of
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Mississippi, and Doug Stone is also one of
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the authors of this book that we're going
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to be featuring today, but he also teaches
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at both undergraduate and graduate courses
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in the School of Theology. His MDIV is
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from Princeton Theological Seminary and
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his PhD is also from Princeton Theological
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Seminary. Doug's field of study is
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american religious history, particularly
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the history of 19th century revivalism,
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social reform, and the Wesleyan Holiness
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movement in America. He's the past
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president of the Wesleyan Theological
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Society, a co convener of the history of
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Methodism, working group of the Oxford
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Institute of Methodist Theological
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Studies, and is on the steering committee
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of the Wesleyan Studies group of the
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American Academy of Religion. He's
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conducted several Wesley heritage study
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tours to England, and he's also led
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students on numerous trips to Russia. He
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has taught four times at the theological
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Seminary of the Russian Methodist Church
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and served on that school's board of
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trustees, and he also taught at two
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theological schools in Korea. He's very
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committed to intercultural learning as
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essential for students preparing to live
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out their christian vocation in a global
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society. Doctor Strong is also an ordained
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clergyman in the United Methodist Church
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and served for eight years as a pastor in
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east Brunswick, New Jersey. He's
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especially interested in reviving the
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wesleyan practice of small group,
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accountable discipleship among today's
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christians, and the book they're on
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talking about today is part of the
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dialogue on race and Faith project, and
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it's called awakening to justice, faithful
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voices from the abolitionist past. It's an
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intriguing book, the way that it starts
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off even, and it sort of grips you from
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the beginning about what this story is
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about. But we're going to get into it
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today with these two guys talking about
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this book, awakening to justice. So
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welcome to the show. Jamara Tisbee and
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Doug Stone. Hello, Jamar and Doug. A very
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warm welcome to the a World of Difference
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podcast to the both of you. Thanks for
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having us. Great to be with you, Lori. It
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is great. We're going to talk about some
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ways we can make a difference together
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today, but it's such an honor to have both
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of you on. And it was also so exciting for
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me to receive an advanced copy of this
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book. We're going to talk about today,
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awakening to justice, faithful voices from
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the abolitionist past. And I'm super
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excited to dig into this conversation with
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you today. But first off, if you could
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each just give a short little introduction
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to yourself. I know a lot of our listeners
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are going to already know who you are, but
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Jamar, why don't you just take the lead
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and tell us a little bit about who you are
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and your background and what brought you
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to this book. Hi, I am doctor Jamar Tisby.
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I'm a historian, an author, and a speaker.
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Folks may know my first book, the Color of
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Compromise, truth about the american
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church's complicity and racism. I'm also a
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professor of history at Simmons College of
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Kentucky, which is a faith based,
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christian, historically black college
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founded in 1879. Awesome. Doug, what about
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you? Yeah, hi, I'm Doug Strong. I'm a
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professor of the history of Christianity
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at Seattle Pacific University in Seattle.
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And prior to that, I was a pastor, and
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I've been a professor at other schools in
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Washington, DC and other places, and also
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was the founding dean of a seminary here
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at Seattle Pacific. So, yeah. And what
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brought me to this book is just my
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lifelong interest in questions of race and
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how that intersects with Christianity,
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especially. Awesome. Well, it's great to
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have both of you change makers and thought
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leaders in this conversation today. I know
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many of us around the world are seeing
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systems that are broken and have been
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broken for a long time, both in religious
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spheres and in government and just society
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in general. And so, coming from academia
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and religious spaces, we're really going
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to dig into some of this with your book
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today. I mean, as I was reading in just
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the beginning, I'm gripped. So I. This is
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not a true crime podcast, but that is the
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biggest genre in podcasting, if you didn't
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know that. And I recently was in LA, met
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speaking at a conference for podcasting
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and met some true crime podcasters. And I
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was reading the introduction to your book
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right after I got back from that
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conference. It sort of read a little bit
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like that, like opening a box. So I guess,
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you know, Doug, if you would take this
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first question, I think it said, in the
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fall of 2019, Noel Keller, the archivist
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at Adrian College, received this large box
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after staff members in the alumni office
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had found the dust filled container high
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up in a supply closet. And then something
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at the bottom of the box opened up this
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whole world of history that had been
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overlooked. So would you describe what she
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found and how it led you to write this
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book? Yeah, fine. I don't think it's
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murders in the building, but I will say
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it's a pretty exciting story. Yeah. This
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librarian was told that there was a box.
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People doing a remodeling of the first,
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oldest building of this small college in
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Michigan found a box, and they thought
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about maybe just throwing it out, and then
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said, well, let's contact the librarian.
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And the librarian went through it, and
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there were all sorts of artifacts. And she
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gets down to the bottom, and there's this
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notebook, and she doesn't know what it is.
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And so she contacts their resident
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chaplain, who's historian at the college.
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And he looks at it, and he can tell just
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by that these faded, yellowed pages with
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script, you know, manuscript writing, and
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then dates 1830, 918, 40, 1841. And he
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realizes this is a diary of somebody, and
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so he does some. This is Chris Mominy,
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who, the chaplain. He does some sleuthing,
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historical good, good historical research,
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and finds out that this is the diary of an
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abolitionist who was close friends and
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associates with Charles Finney, probably
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the best known christian revivalist of the
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19th century, kind of the Billy Graham of
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the 19th century. And so this puts us,
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this document then throws us back right
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into not only the 19th century, but into
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the personal life of somebody, because it
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was a diary. It was a journal. So it's his
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reflections, his recollections, his fears.
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He was a sickly man, and so he talks a lot
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about his health and then about his
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concern for oppressed African Americans.
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So it's quite a document. Yeah, it is.
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It's riveting just to read that at the
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beginning of the book and just, you know,
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piqued my curiosity to want to know more.
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Jamar, though I know you've written and
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spoken a great deal about race and faith,
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and your book, the color compromise,
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explored, really how white Christians,
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more often we're complicit or compromised
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with racism rather than confronting it
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here in the United States. And so can you
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provide sort of an overview of this book
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that you've written together with others
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and what inspired you to join and write in
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on this project. Absolutely. And if I can
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just chime in as a historian here. First
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of all, finding a journal like this is
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like it's the dream. You know, most times
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historians are in libraries. We're looking
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at archives, stuff that's already been
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collected and catalogued. But to find
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something out in the wild, so to speak,
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and then the. The precariousness of this
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find, because if the folks at the college
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hadn't had the wherewithal to say, this
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looks old, maybe there's something
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important, I'll pass it on to this person
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and then passing it on to Chris Mominee,
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who did then recognize the significance.
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So, folks, if you got stuff in your attic,
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your basement, the building at where you
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work, don't just toss it out. Try to do a
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little bit of digging and find out if
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there's something significant. Who knows?
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There might be a whole book there. So my
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involvement with this project is that
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story. Right. It's just a compelling
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story. And then when we dig into the lives
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of the people here, we find out these were
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not the folks who were compromising with
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racism or were complicit with slavery.
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These were the folks who were trying to
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confront it. And then layered on top of
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that, they're doing it within the context
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of their faith. And so often when we talk
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about or hear about Christianity, it's
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about christians behaving badly. And that
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rightly and appropriately, gets a lot of
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headlines, because we need to know about
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that. But there's another narrative, and I
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think that's what this book is really
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crafting, is saying that, yes, there has
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been all of this horrible stuff done in
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the name of Christianity, but also there's
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a different witness. There are people like
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the folks in this book and the scholars
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who assembled around it, who are really
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trying to do the right thing, to work for
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justice, to work for equality, not in
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spite of their. Of faith, but because of.
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So inspiring. Absolutely. And I know that
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you just are getting a standing ovation
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from people listening in the podcast
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community around the world, because we
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want those stories told, and they all need
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to be told, every part of it. Right?
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That's kind of why we have this podcast.
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There's a variety of perspectives. There's
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a part of history, and there's a part of
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the current reality of what it means to be
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human, that we're all a mixture of really
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good and really bad decisions. But some of
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our really bad decisions can really injure
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and harm people systemically for
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generations and generations. And so not
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all bad decisions are equally the same.
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And so being a part of bringing the change
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is so inspiring, gives us hope that even
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in our generation, we can see things. So,
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hey, Doug, I want to ask you this. As you
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were kind of involved in the project, how
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did you see some of the voices and stories
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of the abolitionists featured in the book
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resonate with sort of contemporary
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struggles for sort of this movement of
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justice and equality? Yeah, well, and
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Jamar's already brought this up. The story
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that has been told recently, which is a
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true one, sadly, is about complicity,
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especially white complicity with racism. I
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have a quote that we use in the book that
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I'm going to read. It's not that long, but
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I think it's important. It's by Howard
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Thurman, who was the mentor, really, of
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Martin Luther King. Not now, not as well
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known as king, but he was a pastor. He was
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a theologian and university administrator,
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but this is what he wrote in 1949. So
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really, just as the civil rights movement
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is starting to ramp up, he says, this is
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the question which individuals and groups
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who live in our land always under the
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threat of profound social and
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psychological displacement. So this is the
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question, why is it that Christianity
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seems impotent to deal radically and
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therefore effectively with the issues of
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discrimination and injustice on the basis
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of race? Is this impotence due to a
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betrayal of the genius of the religion, or
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is it due to a basic weakness in the
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religion itself? That is a challenging
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question that every Christian who deals
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with the history of American Christianity
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has to deal with. We have to come to terms
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with that question. And I had to come to
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terms with that question throughout my
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whole life as a Christian who is a
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historian. But it's not just in history.
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It's still true. Right. It's still true
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today. As we see the effects of racism
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continuing. We're not in a post racial
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society. We still see the effects of that
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over and over. White supremacy still
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continues. And so that question is one
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that we have to wrestle with. Well, that's
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why I love the folks in this book. These
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abolitionists were wrestling with the same
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question, and they answered the question
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that it is a bit that the problem of white
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supremacy and racism is a betrayal of the
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genius of Christianity. That was their
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answer. And those of us that worked on
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this book agree with that, that it's. That
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the essence of what Christianity is should
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not be how it manifests itself in white
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racism. So true. Yeah. And I think that
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we've had several historians on the
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podcast. We love historians here we had
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Doctor Beth Allison Barr when her book
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making a vocal woman, had the day it
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released. Actually, we had a pre release
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copy, and then I had Kristen Covez Dumayon
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early on in the Jesus and John Wayne when
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it had just released. And the thing about
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history is we don't want to repeat it, and
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that's why we learn it, and it's why it's
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so important. And so, Jamar, my question
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for you now is, as you have been studying
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this history, what are some key lessons or
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insights that those of us who are modern
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activists and advocates can learn from the
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strategies and tactics employed by
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historical abolitionists? I love that
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00:14:36,630 --> 00:14:39,030
question. It's the how to question, which
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we all want to ask. My second book is
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called how to fight racism, and that was
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also another interest point in this book
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as scholars. And there were over a dozen
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of us who were from different
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denominations, different geographic
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locations, ages, experiences, you name it.
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When we came around and assembled around
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this journal, around the history that it
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told, very quickly, the conversation
345
00:15:07,410 --> 00:15:10,418
turned from the past to the present. What
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can we learn from the past that we can
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apply to the present? There are a lot of
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specifics, but I'll speak in general.
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Principles. Number one, don't give up on
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interracial solidarity and cooperation.
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And I say this as someone who's been very
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much burned by predominantly white
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churches and faith communities. At the
354
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same time, there is a very powerful
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witness in and of itself of people coming
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together across their differences to
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pursue a common goal. And I think that's
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the difference. I think that what we saw
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in Ingram's journal and the constellation
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of folks that he worked with was they were
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united not simply to be diverse and say,
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hey, this will make a nice brochure
363
00:16:03,864 --> 00:16:07,172
picture. They were united in pursuit of a
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goal, in this case, abolition. So what
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00:16:10,092 --> 00:16:13,172
does that mean for us today? Do we have
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clear goals when it comes to justice? What
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are we working toward? What are we working
368
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to change? And in pursuit of that? How can
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we bring communities together across
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differences in pursuit of that common
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goal, but make the goal that the focus,
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and not simply diversity the focus? I
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think another lesson we can learn here is
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to document our work. If Ingram hadn't
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written this journal, we might never have
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known of his existence, let alone the
377
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abolitionist endeavors he and others were
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00:16:51,872 --> 00:16:56,544
taking part in. And so we need to think in
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the present, historically. In other words,
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we need to think about the legacy that
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we're leaving for others to find one day
382
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when our work is part of history. So that
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00:17:08,764 --> 00:17:12,594
means having a personal journal. That
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means documenting online, through
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articles, through blogs, and now we have
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the advantage of video and making videos,
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and we don't need, you know, a Hollywood
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00:17:25,110 --> 00:17:28,494
camera crew. We have cameras on our
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phones, many of us. And so it really is
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important that we document what we're
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doing for posterity with the idea that
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others might find it. And then lastly, I
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would say there is an ongoing need to
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apply the historic truths of the Bible, of
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00:17:51,978 --> 00:17:55,014
scripture, of holy text, to the present
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00:17:55,014 --> 00:17:59,054
day. In other words, there is space and a
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need to continue to do theology and apply
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00:18:03,234 --> 00:18:06,714
it to justice issues today. So there are
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00:18:06,714 --> 00:18:09,146
budding theologians out there who will
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take a formal academic route in college
401
00:18:11,610 --> 00:18:14,034
and seminary and graduate school. But
402
00:18:14,034 --> 00:18:16,614
there are folks who are living their
403
00:18:16,614 --> 00:18:19,906
theology. They are doing good work to make
404
00:18:19,906 --> 00:18:22,450
the world a better place because of what
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00:18:22,450 --> 00:18:26,386
they believe and document that. How do you
406
00:18:26,386 --> 00:18:29,698
get to your work in the world? From your
407
00:18:29,698 --> 00:18:32,602
beliefs about the eternal or the
408
00:18:32,602 --> 00:18:35,442
transcendent? Make that transparent and
409
00:18:35,442 --> 00:18:38,946
help others connect the dots, so to speak,
410
00:18:38,946 --> 00:18:41,094
so that their faith can be put into
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00:18:41,094 --> 00:18:46,748
action. Love that. That's so great. And we
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00:18:46,748 --> 00:18:49,396
do want our children, our grandchildren,
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our great grandchildren, to not make the
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same mistakes we did, but we also want to
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00:18:53,548 --> 00:18:56,780
pass our wisdom on. And I would add
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00:18:56,780 --> 00:18:58,980
podcasting to that list. Yes. As a way to
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00:18:58,980 --> 00:19:03,188
document what's going on. So, Doug, I'm
418
00:19:03,188 --> 00:19:05,004
wondering, in your research, as you were
419
00:19:05,004 --> 00:19:06,388
collaborating on this book, did you
420
00:19:06,388 --> 00:19:08,588
uncover any lesser known figures or
421
00:19:08,588 --> 00:19:10,132
narratives from the abolitionist movement
422
00:19:10,132 --> 00:19:12,744
that you believe deserve a little more
423
00:19:12,744 --> 00:19:15,494
recognition? Yeah. Well, thanks. That's an
424
00:19:15,494 --> 00:19:17,710
excellent question. Well, Ingram himself,
425
00:19:17,710 --> 00:19:21,478
the guy whose journal we found was really
426
00:19:21,478 --> 00:19:25,918
basically unknown, he was unfortunate
427
00:19:25,918 --> 00:19:31,406
because he played a key role not only at
428
00:19:31,406 --> 00:19:34,166
Oberlin College, which was the first
429
00:19:34,166 --> 00:19:36,502
racially integrated college in the United
430
00:19:36,502 --> 00:19:39,558
States, and also, by the way, the first to
431
00:19:39,558 --> 00:19:42,594
educate women along with men at an equal
432
00:19:42,594 --> 00:19:45,570
level. And so he was an. And a christian
433
00:19:45,570 --> 00:19:47,674
institution, very clearly a faith based
434
00:19:47,674 --> 00:19:49,810
institution. So he had a key role there.
435
00:19:49,810 --> 00:19:54,130
But he also, he and his wife were the very
436
00:19:54,130 --> 00:19:58,170
first missionaries sent by Oberlin to
437
00:19:58,170 --> 00:20:01,314
Jamaica to work with emancipated slaves.
438
00:20:01,314 --> 00:20:05,954
So the british empire freed enslaved
439
00:20:05,954 --> 00:20:08,002
people 30 years before the United States.
440
00:20:08,002 --> 00:20:10,964
And it really, they did so, though, in a
441
00:20:10,964 --> 00:20:14,108
poor way, because they did not really give
442
00:20:14,108 --> 00:20:17,572
full freedom. But it was very important
443
00:20:17,572 --> 00:20:20,708
for recently emancipated people to receive
444
00:20:20,708 --> 00:20:22,764
education, but the government wasn't
445
00:20:22,764 --> 00:20:25,172
providing any of that. And so Ingraham
446
00:20:25,172 --> 00:20:30,140
went to help establish schools with these
447
00:20:30,140 --> 00:20:33,228
recently emancipated people. Now, what's
448
00:20:33,228 --> 00:20:36,236
cool about Ingraham is he then recruits an
449
00:20:36,236 --> 00:20:39,292
African American, a free black from
450
00:20:39,292 --> 00:20:42,452
Boston, Nancy Prince, to go with him,
451
00:20:42,452 --> 00:20:45,580
because he realizes that as a white man,
452
00:20:45,580 --> 00:20:47,868
he's probably not going to be very
453
00:20:47,868 --> 00:20:50,516
effective in educating black Jamaicans.
454
00:20:50,516 --> 00:20:53,076
And so he recruits an African American, so
455
00:20:53,076 --> 00:20:55,796
she becomes part of the story. And then
456
00:20:55,796 --> 00:20:59,060
also one of Ingraham's colleagues at
457
00:20:59,060 --> 00:21:01,464
Oberlin and then previously at another
458
00:21:01,464 --> 00:21:05,324
school, was James Bradley, another African
459
00:21:05,324 --> 00:21:08,016
American who had been enslaved and then
460
00:21:08,016 --> 00:21:10,536
freed, and freed himself, actually, by
461
00:21:10,536 --> 00:21:12,992
purchasing his own freedom through
462
00:21:12,992 --> 00:21:16,568
incredibly strenuous work. And so we have
463
00:21:16,568 --> 00:21:20,360
this cadre of people, black and white, and
464
00:21:20,360 --> 00:21:22,136
that's the abolitionist movement. That's
465
00:21:22,136 --> 00:21:24,920
why it's so interesting to me and
466
00:21:24,920 --> 00:21:27,848
exciting, because it's a collaborative,
467
00:21:27,848 --> 00:21:31,064
interracial movement of people working, as
468
00:21:31,064 --> 00:21:34,328
Jamar said, toward a goal not only just
469
00:21:34,328 --> 00:21:36,318
freeing slaves, by the way, although that
470
00:21:36,318 --> 00:21:41,126
was key, but also making sure that freed
471
00:21:41,126 --> 00:21:45,238
African Americans in the north also had
472
00:21:45,238 --> 00:21:50,238
full liberties and full rights. And so
473
00:21:50,238 --> 00:21:53,598
that kind of those specific goals in this
474
00:21:53,598 --> 00:21:55,398
interracial, collaborative community, to
475
00:21:55,398 --> 00:21:58,262
me, that's what we uncovered. And, of
476
00:21:58,262 --> 00:22:00,750
course, people knew about that. But these
477
00:22:00,750 --> 00:22:04,320
are some new voices that hadn't been
478
00:22:04,320 --> 00:22:07,576
really heard from before. And I think
479
00:22:07,576 --> 00:22:13,448
what's powerful about this? David Ingram
480
00:22:13,448 --> 00:22:17,600
Bradley, Nancy Prince. I read somewhere
481
00:22:17,600 --> 00:22:20,264
about principles of screenwriting for
482
00:22:20,264 --> 00:22:24,504
movies and things of that nature. And a
483
00:22:24,504 --> 00:22:27,842
filmmaker said, if you're telling a big
484
00:22:27,842 --> 00:22:30,750
story, don't tell the big story. Tell the
485
00:22:30,750 --> 00:22:34,542
small story within the big story. Tell the
486
00:22:34,542 --> 00:22:36,254
small story within the big story. And I
487
00:22:36,254 --> 00:22:38,598
think that's what's happening in this
488
00:22:38,598 --> 00:22:41,542
book, awakening to justice, is that we
489
00:22:41,542 --> 00:22:45,234
find these mainly three historical
490
00:22:45,234 --> 00:22:49,198
figures, and they are the small story
491
00:22:49,198 --> 00:22:52,150
embedded in the much larger story of
492
00:22:52,150 --> 00:22:55,678
abolition. What you do with people who are
493
00:22:55,678 --> 00:22:57,422
emancipated, what does freedom truly mean?
494
00:22:57,422 --> 00:22:59,470
How do you support that freedom? That's a
495
00:22:59,470 --> 00:23:01,790
big, big story. And the other part I love
496
00:23:01,790 --> 00:23:04,274
about this story is the international
497
00:23:04,274 --> 00:23:06,614
scope. We're in the Caribbean. We're in
498
00:23:06,614 --> 00:23:09,294
Jamaica, not just the United States. And
499
00:23:09,294 --> 00:23:11,766
that really is the story of slavery, too.
500
00:23:11,766 --> 00:23:15,190
It's an entire atlantic world, not just
501
00:23:15,190 --> 00:23:19,254
what became the United States. And so that
502
00:23:19,254 --> 00:23:21,894
adds another layer of complexity and
503
00:23:21,894 --> 00:23:24,046
bigness to this story. So how do you begin
504
00:23:24,046 --> 00:23:26,012
to wrap your head around that? Well, it's
505
00:23:26,012 --> 00:23:27,980
not by trying to tell the whole thing.
506
00:23:27,980 --> 00:23:31,028
It's by zooming in on the experiences of
507
00:23:31,028 --> 00:23:34,972
these folks, on the literal daily journal
508
00:23:34,972 --> 00:23:39,852
entries, the handwriting, the thoughts,
509
00:23:39,852 --> 00:23:43,620
the prayers of this person. Really
510
00:23:43,620 --> 00:23:49,428
intimate, micro fine grained detail that
511
00:23:49,428 --> 00:23:52,164
ironically and sort of counterintuitively
512
00:23:52,164 --> 00:23:54,332
help us understand a much bigger picture
513
00:23:54,332 --> 00:23:57,860
and a much bigger story. And that help us,
514
00:23:57,860 --> 00:24:00,364
Jamar, I would say to help us to know that
515
00:24:00,364 --> 00:24:03,908
these were real people, just like we are
516
00:24:03,908 --> 00:24:09,356
people who had struggles with daily tasks
517
00:24:09,356 --> 00:24:14,372
or illness or family issues. Right. And
518
00:24:14,372 --> 00:24:16,596
so, as they're dealing with the big issues
519
00:24:16,596 --> 00:24:20,940
around them, then we can identify another
520
00:24:20,940 --> 00:24:23,940
direct connection between 200 years ago
521
00:24:23,940 --> 00:24:26,966
and today because, you know, they're
522
00:24:26,966 --> 00:24:30,310
people with the struggles that we have. I
523
00:24:30,310 --> 00:24:32,926
love that position because I think the
524
00:24:32,926 --> 00:24:35,342
power of the small story is reminding us
525
00:24:35,342 --> 00:24:37,918
of the humanity of the people in there.
526
00:24:37,918 --> 00:24:40,470
And so often in this justice work,
527
00:24:40,470 --> 00:24:43,574
especially racial justice, people have, in
528
00:24:43,574 --> 00:24:46,150
so many words, expressed the idea of, who
529
00:24:46,150 --> 00:24:48,366
am I? You know, I don't have any power.
530
00:24:48,366 --> 00:24:49,742
There's nothing special about me. I don't
531
00:24:49,742 --> 00:24:52,656
have any special skills. Possible part
532
00:24:52,656 --> 00:24:56,304
could I play in such a big issue like
533
00:24:56,304 --> 00:24:59,288
abolition or fighting racism today? And
534
00:24:59,288 --> 00:25:01,664
these stories, these journal entries in
535
00:25:01,664 --> 00:25:03,728
particular remind us, like, hey, it's
536
00:25:03,728 --> 00:25:06,616
normal folks. It's everyday folks just
537
00:25:06,616 --> 00:25:08,764
like you and me, who can make a big
538
00:25:08,764 --> 00:25:11,888
difference. I feel like you just gave the
539
00:25:11,888 --> 00:25:14,204
tagline from my podcast. Thank you there,
540
00:25:14,204 --> 00:25:17,424
Jamar. Yes. I mean, it is this collective
541
00:25:17,424 --> 00:25:20,780
effort. It's this massive global situation
542
00:25:20,780 --> 00:25:22,740
that's gone on for years with a lot of
543
00:25:22,740 --> 00:25:26,236
nuance, depending on who was colonizing,
544
00:25:26,236 --> 00:25:29,284
who was enslaving who. And, you know,
545
00:25:29,284 --> 00:25:31,684
like, when I lived. I lived both in
546
00:25:31,684 --> 00:25:33,492
Indonesia and in northern South America.
547
00:25:33,492 --> 00:25:35,700
And there were some connections. There
548
00:25:35,700 --> 00:25:37,876
were Dutch colonized Indonesians, and
549
00:25:37,876 --> 00:25:39,804
there were people brought from Indonesia
550
00:25:39,804 --> 00:25:42,836
by ship to northern South America to, you
551
00:25:42,836 --> 00:25:44,316
know, countries that were east of
552
00:25:44,316 --> 00:25:46,236
Venezuela, where I grew up. And. And
553
00:25:46,236 --> 00:25:49,016
there's a lot of nuance around how places
554
00:25:49,016 --> 00:25:51,504
got, you know, emancipated, enslaved
555
00:25:51,504 --> 00:25:55,088
people. So I was in Rio in November and
556
00:25:55,088 --> 00:25:56,760
talking with some. A friend there who
557
00:25:56,760 --> 00:25:59,200
lives in Copacabana, and she was, you
558
00:25:59,200 --> 00:26:01,952
know, talking about how when Brazil
559
00:26:01,952 --> 00:26:03,384
emancipated, it was like, it's just a
560
00:26:03,384 --> 00:26:04,872
document. I think it was like, Princess
561
00:26:04,872 --> 00:26:06,000
Isabella or somebody just wrote this
562
00:26:06,000 --> 00:26:07,720
thing, and it's like, wow, you live in a
563
00:26:07,720 --> 00:26:09,784
nation that literally fought a war over
564
00:26:09,784 --> 00:26:12,496
this and other places, just signed a
565
00:26:12,496 --> 00:26:14,816
document. So the nuance of, was it Dutch,
566
00:26:14,816 --> 00:26:16,920
was it portuguese? Was it british? Where
567
00:26:16,920 --> 00:26:19,824
was it in the world who was enslaved? It
568
00:26:19,824 --> 00:26:23,104
can feel so overwhelming. But I love what
569
00:26:23,104 --> 00:26:25,440
you're saying, that every one person
570
00:26:25,440 --> 00:26:27,760
joined in a collective effort, shoulder to
571
00:26:27,760 --> 00:26:30,408
shoulder with others, is how we make a
572
00:26:30,408 --> 00:26:32,176
difference. And I do want to bring in the
573
00:26:32,176 --> 00:26:33,840
faith element, because this is sort of
574
00:26:33,840 --> 00:26:36,184
your expertise, Jamar. You wrote this
575
00:26:36,184 --> 00:26:38,552
amazing book, the color of compromise, and
576
00:26:38,552 --> 00:26:40,624
I would love for you to sort of help us
577
00:26:40,624 --> 00:26:42,712
understand how faith intersects with the
578
00:26:42,712 --> 00:26:44,656
pursuit of justice in these narratives of
579
00:26:44,656 --> 00:26:47,924
the abolitionists. That you've studied,
580
00:26:47,924 --> 00:26:50,796
whether you're looking at abolitionism, or
581
00:26:50,796 --> 00:26:55,036
even the US civil war. A lot of the people
582
00:26:55,036 --> 00:26:57,428
who were fighting for black emancipation,
583
00:26:57,428 --> 00:27:00,444
full rights, full inclusion, went back to
584
00:27:00,444 --> 00:27:03,264
what we commonly refer to as the golden
585
00:27:03,264 --> 00:27:06,784
rule. Treat others the way you want to be
586
00:27:06,784 --> 00:27:09,652
treated, or the way Jesus said it, love
587
00:27:09,652 --> 00:27:11,044
the Lord your God with all your heart,
588
00:27:11,044 --> 00:27:13,338
soul, mind, and strength, and love your
589
00:27:13,338 --> 00:27:17,002
neighbor as yourself. So they were
590
00:27:17,002 --> 00:27:20,666
applying a very simple but profound, and I
591
00:27:20,666 --> 00:27:23,122
would say universal. You can sort of find
592
00:27:23,122 --> 00:27:27,202
this principle in any religion of treating
593
00:27:27,202 --> 00:27:29,074
others how you want to be treated. They
594
00:27:29,074 --> 00:27:31,706
were applying that not just on an
595
00:27:31,706 --> 00:27:34,890
individual, interpersonal level, but on a
596
00:27:34,890 --> 00:27:37,146
societal, structural, institutional level,
597
00:27:37,146 --> 00:27:39,894
which I think is the part a lot of people
598
00:27:39,894 --> 00:27:43,886
struggle with. It's not a strange concept
599
00:27:43,886 --> 00:27:46,198
for a lot of people that we should be
600
00:27:46,198 --> 00:27:48,934
nice, that we should be kind to others
601
00:27:48,934 --> 00:27:50,838
around us. I mean, I hope that's not a
602
00:27:50,838 --> 00:27:53,718
strange concept, right? I think it is a
603
00:27:53,718 --> 00:27:55,718
bit more of a challenge for folks when
604
00:27:55,718 --> 00:27:57,918
we're thinking about these larger issues
605
00:27:57,918 --> 00:28:00,590
of race, of class, of gender, and applying
606
00:28:00,590 --> 00:28:02,478
that same principle, because it gets very
607
00:28:02,478 --> 00:28:04,638
complicated very quickly. Right? You were
608
00:28:04,638 --> 00:28:07,126
naming some of the nuances and differences
609
00:28:07,126 --> 00:28:09,230
between who was colonizing who and when
610
00:28:09,230 --> 00:28:12,284
and how things happened. Well, that
611
00:28:12,284 --> 00:28:15,612
happens even just on a single nation
612
00:28:15,612 --> 00:28:17,228
level. If you think about the size of a
613
00:28:17,228 --> 00:28:19,708
country like the United States, with 50
614
00:28:19,708 --> 00:28:22,404
different states, a massive geography, and
615
00:28:22,404 --> 00:28:24,492
many, many different cultures, and a
616
00:28:24,492 --> 00:28:27,548
nation in many ways of immigrants. Right?
617
00:28:27,548 --> 00:28:31,172
So the complexity ramps up real, real
618
00:28:31,172 --> 00:28:36,044
quickly. But I think the theological, the
619
00:28:36,044 --> 00:28:38,198
christian principle of loving your
620
00:28:38,198 --> 00:28:41,766
neighbor as yourself is still applicable
621
00:28:41,766 --> 00:28:44,558
in that situation. And what it forces us
622
00:28:44,558 --> 00:28:49,078
to do is to try to perceive the world from
623
00:28:49,078 --> 00:28:51,078
another person's perspective, which is
624
00:28:51,078 --> 00:28:53,190
what a world of difference podcast is all
625
00:28:53,190 --> 00:28:57,654
about. Right? So I think in some ways, the
626
00:28:57,654 --> 00:29:02,310
whole theme of this show is putting that
627
00:29:02,310 --> 00:29:06,574
theology into action and saying, I know my
628
00:29:06,574 --> 00:29:09,054
life and I experience things from my
629
00:29:09,054 --> 00:29:11,046
perspective. And so I can see, you know,
630
00:29:11,046 --> 00:29:13,190
different struggles and different
631
00:29:13,190 --> 00:29:15,878
privileges I have. But if I really try to
632
00:29:15,878 --> 00:29:18,414
get inside someone else's position,
633
00:29:18,414 --> 00:29:21,062
someone else's point of view, then, number
634
00:29:21,062 --> 00:29:23,102
one, I can't do that unless I have some
635
00:29:23,102 --> 00:29:26,054
sort of proximity. I call it priestly
636
00:29:26,054 --> 00:29:29,390
proximity. You know, a pastor, in the best
637
00:29:29,390 --> 00:29:31,910
sense of the word, is close to the people
638
00:29:31,910 --> 00:29:34,556
they serve, and then they know their
639
00:29:34,556 --> 00:29:37,092
needs, right, and can minister to those
640
00:29:37,092 --> 00:29:39,700
needs in the same way. We need to get
641
00:29:39,700 --> 00:29:42,452
proximate, as Bryan Stevenson of the equal
642
00:29:42,452 --> 00:29:43,748
Justice Initiative would say, we need to
643
00:29:43,748 --> 00:29:47,068
get proximate with people who are on the
644
00:29:47,068 --> 00:29:49,564
margins and suffering. And when we do
645
00:29:49,564 --> 00:29:51,684
that, we have a better sense of what
646
00:29:51,684 --> 00:29:53,260
they're struggling with. And then we can
647
00:29:53,260 --> 00:29:55,828
come alongside and love our neighbor
648
00:29:55,828 --> 00:29:58,568
through actions, and not just through
649
00:29:58,568 --> 00:30:04,680
words or thoughts and prayers. Hash
650
00:30:04,680 --> 00:30:05,656
thoughtsandprayers. We're winning a little
651
00:30:05,656 --> 00:30:07,336
more than that, aren't we? It's kind of.
652
00:30:07,336 --> 00:30:10,976
If you're. If you know, you know, Doug,
653
00:30:10,976 --> 00:30:13,288
I'd love for you to answer this for us.
654
00:30:13,288 --> 00:30:15,528
What. What role did faith communities play
655
00:30:15,528 --> 00:30:17,600
in the abolition movement, from your
656
00:30:17,600 --> 00:30:19,784
perspective? And how do you see religious
657
00:30:19,784 --> 00:30:21,800
institutions engaging in social justice
658
00:30:21,800 --> 00:30:27,082
issues today? Yeah, abolitionism really
659
00:30:27,082 --> 00:30:30,754
cannot be understood. Us abolitionism, or
660
00:30:30,754 --> 00:30:33,066
british, for that matter, without the
661
00:30:33,066 --> 00:30:36,274
faith perspective, really. Those people
662
00:30:36,274 --> 00:30:42,186
who were most central to abolition either
663
00:30:42,186 --> 00:30:45,290
came from religious backgrounds or
664
00:30:45,290 --> 00:30:49,938
themselves were formed, based. Their
665
00:30:49,938 --> 00:30:51,810
foundation was in a theological
666
00:30:51,810 --> 00:30:53,906
perspective. Jamaras mentioned one of the
667
00:30:53,906 --> 00:30:56,554
ideas, which is this concept of the golden
668
00:30:56,554 --> 00:30:58,802
rule. There's also the idea that all
669
00:30:58,802 --> 00:31:00,962
people are created in God's image. It's
670
00:31:00,962 --> 00:31:03,914
something that is very central. They
671
00:31:03,914 --> 00:31:08,274
repeat this constantly. There's a verse in
672
00:31:08,274 --> 00:31:11,722
acts that says, all humanity is made of
673
00:31:11,722 --> 00:31:14,922
one blood, and this sense that we're all
674
00:31:14,922 --> 00:31:17,546
together in this. There's the story in the
675
00:31:17,546 --> 00:31:21,714
book of revelation where it says that all
676
00:31:21,714 --> 00:31:24,254
tribes and peoples and nations will come
677
00:31:24,254 --> 00:31:28,274
together at the end of time. So all of
678
00:31:28,274 --> 00:31:31,466
these theological concepts were central to
679
00:31:31,466 --> 00:31:35,290
what it meant to be abolitionists, and
680
00:31:35,290 --> 00:31:38,050
they would repeat these. In fact, many of
681
00:31:38,050 --> 00:31:40,890
the abolitionist meetings were more like
682
00:31:40,890 --> 00:31:44,466
revival meetings and prayer meetings. Most
683
00:31:44,466 --> 00:31:46,866
of these people had experienced camp
684
00:31:46,866 --> 00:31:49,288
meetings, outdoor religious assemblies
685
00:31:49,288 --> 00:31:53,304
themselves, and they manifested this in
686
00:31:53,304 --> 00:31:56,676
abolition. The largest abolition meetings
687
00:31:56,676 --> 00:32:00,588
in the country were held under a huge tent
688
00:32:00,588 --> 00:32:02,956
that had also been used for Charles
689
00:32:02,956 --> 00:32:06,284
Finney's revivals. The same tent. And so
690
00:32:06,284 --> 00:32:09,500
there's this connection between this
691
00:32:09,500 --> 00:32:12,260
social justice movement and people of
692
00:32:12,260 --> 00:32:17,904
faith. Well. The scriptures haven't
693
00:32:17,904 --> 00:32:22,308
changed today. We still believe.
694
00:32:22,308 --> 00:32:24,364
Christians still believe that all people
695
00:32:24,364 --> 00:32:27,172
are created in God's image. We still
696
00:32:27,172 --> 00:32:29,532
believe that there is, if you will quote,
697
00:32:29,532 --> 00:32:33,668
one blood. We're all together in this. We
698
00:32:33,668 --> 00:32:36,068
still think that God's going to. Bring all
699
00:32:36,068 --> 00:32:38,300
things together, all tribes, languages,
700
00:32:38,300 --> 00:32:43,964
and peoples. And so, in my sense, as a
701
00:32:43,964 --> 00:32:46,778
theologian, as a historian who's also a
702
00:32:46,778 --> 00:32:50,246
theologian, I think that we are called to
703
00:32:50,246 --> 00:32:53,070
continue that task, not just christians,
704
00:32:53,070 --> 00:32:58,462
but people of all faiths coming together,
705
00:32:58,462 --> 00:33:02,674
finding ways to do justice, love mercy, be
706
00:33:02,674 --> 00:33:06,742
humble, as we work together on the tasks
707
00:33:06,742 --> 00:33:10,126
that are before us, which include racial
708
00:33:10,126 --> 00:33:13,526
justice. And as you've mentioned on your
709
00:33:13,526 --> 00:33:15,954
podcast, many other issues of justice as
710
00:33:15,954 --> 00:33:20,550
well. Yeah. So, so fascinating. Um, you
711
00:33:20,550 --> 00:33:22,398
know, I know some people listening
712
00:33:22,398 --> 00:33:24,382
probably have this question in their mind,
713
00:33:24,382 --> 00:33:27,510
especially if they're in a us context. And
714
00:33:27,510 --> 00:33:29,062
maybe some of the narratives. They've been
715
00:33:29,062 --> 00:33:30,558
told, this is. This is the thing, right?
716
00:33:30,558 --> 00:33:33,286
One of the things I train on globally is
717
00:33:33,286 --> 00:33:35,262
around communication for leadership
718
00:33:35,262 --> 00:33:38,110
development. And all of us have these
719
00:33:38,110 --> 00:33:39,854
filters. We're like these story making
720
00:33:39,854 --> 00:33:41,646
machines. So whatever family we grew up
721
00:33:41,646 --> 00:33:43,134
in, whatever culture we grew up in,
722
00:33:43,134 --> 00:33:44,958
whatever languages we speak, faith,
723
00:33:44,958 --> 00:33:46,918
community, all of that, they're giving us
724
00:33:46,918 --> 00:33:49,654
this unique narrative that we filter all
725
00:33:49,654 --> 00:33:51,766
we're hearing through, and it's as unique
726
00:33:51,766 --> 00:33:53,758
as our fingerprint. So I have twins.
727
00:33:53,758 --> 00:33:56,902
They're 16. They're night and day, and
728
00:33:56,902 --> 00:33:58,142
they have very different filters, even
729
00:33:58,142 --> 00:33:59,702
though they were born six minutes apart in
730
00:33:59,702 --> 00:34:02,358
the same family, right? And so I know some
731
00:34:02,358 --> 00:34:05,582
people have been fed narratives, and even
732
00:34:05,582 --> 00:34:07,558
we can see the historical evidence of
733
00:34:07,558 --> 00:34:11,300
this, of taking actual scriptures that we
734
00:34:11,300 --> 00:34:17,364
all hold dear and either twisting them or
735
00:34:17,364 --> 00:34:20,724
interpreting them in such a way as to
736
00:34:20,724 --> 00:34:23,916
advocate for enslaved peoples back when
737
00:34:23,916 --> 00:34:26,668
the civil war, for example, was going on.
738
00:34:26,668 --> 00:34:28,524
So for those who have this big question
739
00:34:28,524 --> 00:34:30,956
mark over their head, how can the same
740
00:34:30,956 --> 00:34:34,424
scriptures liberate and at the same time
741
00:34:34,424 --> 00:34:36,556
condone enslaving people and bringing them
742
00:34:36,556 --> 00:34:38,826
to forced labor camps against their own
743
00:34:38,826 --> 00:34:43,522
will? Jamar, do you want to take that one?
744
00:34:43,522 --> 00:34:45,306
That's the age old question, and I'm sure
745
00:34:45,306 --> 00:34:48,594
Doug has a lot to say and contribute on
746
00:34:48,594 --> 00:34:51,490
this. One of the things that is apparent
747
00:34:51,490 --> 00:34:55,578
to me from the history of racism and
748
00:34:55,578 --> 00:34:56,962
Christianity in the United States, and I
749
00:34:56,962 --> 00:35:00,066
would argue globally, is that the
750
00:35:00,066 --> 00:35:03,458
justification follows the action. The
751
00:35:03,458 --> 00:35:05,202
justification follows the action. So, in
752
00:35:05,202 --> 00:35:09,630
the case of us race based chattel slavery,
753
00:35:09,630 --> 00:35:10,914
slaveholders were going to get their
754
00:35:10,914 --> 00:35:13,806
money. They were going to find laborers.
755
00:35:13,806 --> 00:35:15,726
They were going to increase their bottom
756
00:35:15,726 --> 00:35:18,022
line by not paying them. And then they
757
00:35:18,022 --> 00:35:19,846
were going to come up with the rationale
758
00:35:19,846 --> 00:35:23,142
and the reasoning to justify it. And I
759
00:35:23,142 --> 00:35:26,542
think that's often what happens with
760
00:35:26,542 --> 00:35:29,630
christian justifications for slavery.
761
00:35:29,630 --> 00:35:33,754
Racism, white supremacy, is there is some
762
00:35:33,754 --> 00:35:36,392
social, economic, media, cultural
763
00:35:36,392 --> 00:35:39,072
advantage that they want, that they're
764
00:35:39,072 --> 00:35:42,088
pursuing, and then they come along and
765
00:35:42,088 --> 00:35:47,336
create a theology to back it up. And so
766
00:35:47,336 --> 00:35:49,872
there's Frederick Douglass's famous line
767
00:35:49,872 --> 00:35:52,728
in the appendix of his autobiography, that
768
00:35:52,728 --> 00:35:55,040
between the Christianity of Christ and the
769
00:35:55,040 --> 00:35:56,608
Christianity of this land, I see the
770
00:35:56,608 --> 00:35:58,976
widest possible difference. And I think
771
00:35:58,976 --> 00:36:02,922
what Douglass is getting at there is this.
772
00:36:02,922 --> 00:36:05,666
Slaveholder Christianity is exactly that.
773
00:36:05,666 --> 00:36:08,762
It is developed by people who were
774
00:36:08,762 --> 00:36:13,402
advocating for slavery in one of its most
775
00:36:13,402 --> 00:36:16,170
pernicious forms lifelong, based on the
776
00:36:16,170 --> 00:36:18,626
status of the mother, based on the color
777
00:36:18,626 --> 00:36:21,010
of your skin, those kinds of things. And
778
00:36:21,010 --> 00:36:23,082
then they went back and talked about
779
00:36:23,082 --> 00:36:26,378
things like the curse of ham, or
780
00:36:26,378 --> 00:36:28,130
ironically, that very passage that Doug
781
00:36:28,130 --> 00:36:32,234
was citing before that we're all of one
782
00:36:32,234 --> 00:36:35,034
blood. There's a passage in acts 1726 that
783
00:36:35,034 --> 00:36:37,346
said, God appointed different times and
784
00:36:37,346 --> 00:36:39,978
places so that we might see God. Right.
785
00:36:39,978 --> 00:36:43,922
There were people who used that line, God
786
00:36:43,922 --> 00:36:46,074
set people in different times and places
787
00:36:46,074 --> 00:36:49,770
to justify racial segregation and said God
788
00:36:49,770 --> 00:36:52,322
did that on purpose, that he separated us.
789
00:36:52,322 --> 00:36:54,682
So what God has created, we shouldn't try
790
00:36:54,682 --> 00:36:57,134
to bring together through racial
791
00:36:57,134 --> 00:37:01,134
integration. So. But that often came after
792
00:37:01,134 --> 00:37:04,174
the segregation was already a fact in
793
00:37:04,174 --> 00:37:06,950
society, after slavery was already a fact
794
00:37:06,950 --> 00:37:09,990
in society, after the advantage of this
795
00:37:09,990 --> 00:37:13,054
social arrangement was already being. Was
796
00:37:13,054 --> 00:37:14,990
already giving benefits to some that they
797
00:37:14,990 --> 00:37:20,182
didn't want to give up. Yeah, we see that
798
00:37:20,182 --> 00:37:23,910
also in terms of how, you know, patriarchy
799
00:37:23,910 --> 00:37:26,198
has been a lens through which the
800
00:37:26,198 --> 00:37:29,274
scriptures have been read. And so very
801
00:37:29,274 --> 00:37:32,462
similar tactic, where inherently there are
802
00:37:32,462 --> 00:37:34,510
just some who believe that men are
803
00:37:34,510 --> 00:37:36,166
superior to women and should rule over
804
00:37:36,166 --> 00:37:38,094
them and therefore have interpreted
805
00:37:38,094 --> 00:37:40,086
scriptures to rule over other human
806
00:37:40,086 --> 00:37:42,198
beings. But what you said, Doug, earlier,
807
00:37:42,198 --> 00:37:44,374
about this whole imago, we're all made in
808
00:37:44,374 --> 00:37:46,974
God's image. Like, when you see that in
809
00:37:46,974 --> 00:37:49,630
Genesis 127, and you understand this is
810
00:37:49,630 --> 00:37:51,950
the core part of what these scriptures are
811
00:37:51,950 --> 00:37:55,006
saying for people of three major world
812
00:37:55,006 --> 00:37:56,590
religions. You know, Christianity,
813
00:37:56,590 --> 00:38:01,192
Judaism, and. And Islam both take these
814
00:38:01,192 --> 00:38:03,720
genesis scriptures very seriously. And so
815
00:38:03,720 --> 00:38:07,048
to understand that our common humanity
816
00:38:07,048 --> 00:38:08,936
deserves human dignity and respect, it
817
00:38:08,936 --> 00:38:11,528
would make us work for human rights. But
818
00:38:11,528 --> 00:38:13,400
at the same time, people can twist those
819
00:38:13,400 --> 00:38:16,560
things for other reasons, for even modern
820
00:38:16,560 --> 00:38:18,304
day corporate greed and that type of
821
00:38:18,304 --> 00:38:21,952
thing. Right. So, as we're sort of kind of
822
00:38:21,952 --> 00:38:23,792
driving this home, I do want to give each
823
00:38:23,792 --> 00:38:26,750
of you a chance to sort of help us
824
00:38:26,750 --> 00:38:28,526
understand what calls to action you would
825
00:38:28,526 --> 00:38:30,834
like us to come away with. I know as
826
00:38:30,834 --> 00:38:33,686
historians, you don't like to predict the
827
00:38:33,686 --> 00:38:35,014
future, and I'm not asking you to do
828
00:38:35,014 --> 00:38:36,894
anything like that, but what can we learn
829
00:38:36,894 --> 00:38:40,038
from these abolitionists, in terms of what
830
00:38:40,038 --> 00:38:41,366
you've discovered and written about in
831
00:38:41,366 --> 00:38:44,158
this book that can help us today? Because
832
00:38:44,158 --> 00:38:46,590
we're still facing some similar issues,
833
00:38:46,590 --> 00:38:49,166
and we need to understand how to work
834
00:38:49,166 --> 00:38:51,350
together in such a way as to where we can
835
00:38:51,350 --> 00:38:53,014
overcome these obstacles, and we could see
836
00:38:53,014 --> 00:38:55,080
that happen. What are your calls to action
837
00:38:55,080 --> 00:38:57,512
for us and help us be inspired of. What we
838
00:38:57,512 --> 00:39:03,824
can do together? Well, let me step in. Our
839
00:39:03,824 --> 00:39:08,144
project was, the book is a book written by
840
00:39:08,144 --> 00:39:11,720
ten people, and the actual scholars that
841
00:39:11,720 --> 00:39:14,444
came together was even larger than that.
842
00:39:14,444 --> 00:39:17,984
And the process of doing that, we actually
843
00:39:17,984 --> 00:39:21,692
were able to get a grant, which there are
844
00:39:21,692 --> 00:39:24,464
grants out there that people can apply
845
00:39:24,464 --> 00:39:27,108
for, which allowed us to be able to
846
00:39:27,108 --> 00:39:30,860
gather, to travel to various sites related
847
00:39:30,860 --> 00:39:35,380
to racial justice advocacy and the
848
00:39:35,380 --> 00:39:38,104
traveling, the working together on a
849
00:39:38,104 --> 00:39:41,476
project, writing project. All of this
850
00:39:41,476 --> 00:39:46,036
brought us as scholars, but as people who
851
00:39:46,036 --> 00:39:48,976
were, as Jamar mentioned earlier, who were
852
00:39:48,976 --> 00:39:51,920
very different from one another together.
853
00:39:51,920 --> 00:39:54,124
And we shared our stories with one
854
00:39:54,124 --> 00:39:58,080
another. We learned about who we were as
855
00:39:58,080 --> 00:40:00,728
people and what our experiences were,
856
00:40:00,728 --> 00:40:03,728
positive and negative. Okay. Why? I just
857
00:40:03,728 --> 00:40:07,544
think we can all do this. It didn't take
858
00:40:07,544 --> 00:40:11,040
rocket science for us to just gather and
859
00:40:11,040 --> 00:40:14,584
to talk to one another. We can do that,
860
00:40:14,584 --> 00:40:17,064
but we have to. The question is, are we
861
00:40:17,064 --> 00:40:19,400
intentional about it? Because there are so
862
00:40:19,400 --> 00:40:21,944
many ways in our own culture that we've
863
00:40:21,944 --> 00:40:25,840
been separated. Some intent, some were
864
00:40:25,840 --> 00:40:27,520
intentional segregation efforts, but
865
00:40:27,520 --> 00:40:30,512
others just by happenstance or where we
866
00:40:30,512 --> 00:40:35,840
live. And so it's really, it behooves us
867
00:40:35,840 --> 00:40:39,040
to take the initiative to be intentional
868
00:40:39,040 --> 00:40:41,384
with people who are different. And when we
869
00:40:41,384 --> 00:40:45,576
do so, then we glean, we gain, we grow.
870
00:40:45,576 --> 00:40:49,336
And I think that's what I take away from
871
00:40:49,336 --> 00:40:51,496
this whole project and this book and from
872
00:40:51,496 --> 00:40:55,272
the abolitionists themselves. Awesome.
873
00:40:55,272 --> 00:40:59,760
What about you, Jamar? Real concretely, I
874
00:40:59,760 --> 00:41:04,656
would say take pilgrimages together. That
875
00:41:04,656 --> 00:41:08,504
was one of the most powerful aspects of.
876
00:41:08,504 --> 00:41:13,484
Of this project. The book is an edited
877
00:41:13,484 --> 00:41:18,296
volume, fascinating, hard hitting, in
878
00:41:18,296 --> 00:41:21,368
depth, intellectual, but accessible
879
00:41:21,368 --> 00:41:24,472
chapters by various people. But this book
880
00:41:24,472 --> 00:41:29,912
is a product of fellowship. It's a product
881
00:41:29,912 --> 00:41:32,264
of, as it says in proverbs, iron
882
00:41:32,264 --> 00:41:36,764
sharpening iron. And that happened in the
883
00:41:36,764 --> 00:41:40,028
course of going to Oberlin, going to
884
00:41:40,028 --> 00:41:43,188
Washington, DC, going to Benin in West
885
00:41:43,188 --> 00:41:46,548
Africa, places that were significant in
886
00:41:46,548 --> 00:41:49,724
this journal and in the world of slavery
887
00:41:49,724 --> 00:41:52,940
and abolition. And it was the bus rides,
888
00:41:52,940 --> 00:41:55,516
it was the meals, it was the prayers, it
889
00:41:55,516 --> 00:41:59,132
was the singing together that, honestly,
890
00:41:59,132 --> 00:42:03,268
as a participant, it felt like we were
891
00:42:03,268 --> 00:42:07,196
somehow participating in the same kind of
892
00:42:07,196 --> 00:42:10,308
interracial fellowship and solidarity that
893
00:42:10,308 --> 00:42:15,148
knit together this justice community in
894
00:42:15,148 --> 00:42:19,700
over 150 years ago. Right? And now we're
895
00:42:19,700 --> 00:42:21,628
participating in it in some way, shape, or
896
00:42:21,628 --> 00:42:23,980
form now. So what I would encourage folks
897
00:42:23,980 --> 00:42:25,916
to do is, if you haven't already or
898
00:42:25,916 --> 00:42:28,300
haven't in a long time, get together with
899
00:42:28,300 --> 00:42:32,836
a group of folks, a book club, a church
900
00:42:32,836 --> 00:42:35,804
group, a civic group, and go to some of
901
00:42:35,804 --> 00:42:39,636
the sites in your own area that are
902
00:42:39,636 --> 00:42:41,984
significant, have some significance
903
00:42:41,984 --> 00:42:44,644
historically. Pay attention not only to
904
00:42:44,644 --> 00:42:47,796
the content of what you're studying, but
905
00:42:47,796 --> 00:42:49,476
to the connections that you're forming.
906
00:42:49,476 --> 00:42:51,724
And I really think that forming those
907
00:42:51,724 --> 00:42:54,420
strong connections is what is going to
908
00:42:54,420 --> 00:42:57,444
give us longevity, perseverance, and
909
00:42:57,444 --> 00:43:00,184
resilience in this ongoing struggle for
910
00:43:00,184 --> 00:43:05,356
justice. Both great calls to action. So
911
00:43:05,356 --> 00:43:07,820
exciting. And we are going to be doing a
912
00:43:07,820 --> 00:43:09,532
giveaway for your, a couple giveaways for
913
00:43:09,532 --> 00:43:12,300
your book, thanks to IVP press, who've
914
00:43:12,300 --> 00:43:13,756
generously given us a couple copies to
915
00:43:13,756 --> 00:43:15,612
give away. And I do hope people do join
916
00:43:15,612 --> 00:43:18,300
together in groups to study this book and
917
00:43:18,300 --> 00:43:20,060
form a community because I absolutely
918
00:43:20,060 --> 00:43:21,420
agree. Coming together with our
919
00:43:21,420 --> 00:43:22,612
differences is how we make a difference.
920
00:43:22,612 --> 00:43:25,328
And so, and crossing borders together and
921
00:43:25,328 --> 00:43:27,776
meals together, all of those things are
922
00:43:27,776 --> 00:43:30,448
how these conversations really form and
923
00:43:30,448 --> 00:43:32,376
take place. So thank you so much to both
924
00:43:32,376 --> 00:43:35,784
of you for the, you know, the labor of
925
00:43:35,784 --> 00:43:37,944
love that this book is for all of us to
926
00:43:37,944 --> 00:43:40,432
read and to get it into our hands, to
927
00:43:40,432 --> 00:43:43,440
inspire us from history and from someone's
928
00:43:43,440 --> 00:43:46,144
journal that was discovered high up on a
929
00:43:46,144 --> 00:43:49,616
shelf in this very true crime kind of way
930
00:43:49,616 --> 00:43:51,464
to help us come together on this
931
00:43:51,464 --> 00:43:53,416
conversation today in 2024, because we
932
00:43:53,416 --> 00:43:55,824
need it now more than we ever have some
933
00:43:55,824 --> 00:43:57,792
ways, because it's really time to solve
934
00:43:57,792 --> 00:43:59,256
some of these issues that have been going
935
00:43:59,256 --> 00:44:02,264
on for too many generations. So thank you
936
00:44:02,264 --> 00:44:03,696
both. We're going to also have you hang
937
00:44:03,696 --> 00:44:05,616
out for our Patreon supporters for another
938
00:44:05,616 --> 00:44:07,528
question after this. But how can people
939
00:44:07,528 --> 00:44:08,952
find you and more of your writing? I'll
940
00:44:08,952 --> 00:44:11,000
let you say those couple of things, and
941
00:44:11,000 --> 00:44:15,064
then we'll close out. Well, one thing, if
942
00:44:15,064 --> 00:44:18,024
you're interested in this project, there's
943
00:44:18,024 --> 00:44:21,624
a website called awakeningtojustice.com.
944
00:44:21,624 --> 00:44:25,464
And on that website are free resources,
945
00:44:25,464 --> 00:44:30,488
including a discussion guide for the book.
946
00:44:30,488 --> 00:44:35,344
For each chapter, there are sermon ideas,
947
00:44:35,344 --> 00:44:40,704
music idea, worship song ideas, film
948
00:44:40,704 --> 00:44:43,264
documentary, a 35 minutes film documentary
949
00:44:43,264 --> 00:44:45,964
that's been made that goes along with this
950
00:44:45,964 --> 00:44:48,224
project. And all of those are available on
951
00:44:48,224 --> 00:44:55,280
the website. Yes. And for me, I have a
952
00:44:55,280 --> 00:44:57,816
substack called footnotes. You can go to
953
00:44:57,816 --> 00:45:00,016
jamartisbee dot substack.com. Would love
954
00:45:00,016 --> 00:45:02,968
for you to subscribe. You can be a free
955
00:45:02,968 --> 00:45:06,272
subscriber or support my work. And then
956
00:45:06,272 --> 00:45:08,824
also, along with what Doug just mentioned,
957
00:45:08,824 --> 00:45:12,792
the website, you know, this is great for
958
00:45:12,792 --> 00:45:15,416
church groups to come around or book
959
00:45:15,416 --> 00:45:18,492
studies to come around and study. Think
960
00:45:18,492 --> 00:45:21,972
together about this, host a viewing or a
961
00:45:21,972 --> 00:45:24,580
screening of the film, have a discussion
962
00:45:24,580 --> 00:45:27,764
afterwards, and see how your neighbors
963
00:45:27,764 --> 00:45:31,612
might join in the work of justice. Well,
964
00:45:31,612 --> 00:45:33,756
thank you, Jamara and Doug and everybody.
965
00:45:33,756 --> 00:45:36,108
Pick up a copy of this book or join our
966
00:45:36,108 --> 00:45:38,508
giveaway to get one. It's awakening to
967
00:45:38,508 --> 00:45:40,132
justice. Faithful voices from the
968
00:45:40,132 --> 00:45:41,212
abolitionist past. Thank you both for
969
00:45:41,212 --> 00:45:43,640
being on the show today. Thank you. Thank
970
00:45:43,640 --> 00:45:46,712
you, Lori. These two men writing this book
971
00:45:46,712 --> 00:45:49,880
and bringing it to our attention. Voices
972
00:45:49,880 --> 00:45:52,840
from the past, a history that is so
973
00:45:52,840 --> 00:45:56,176
relevant today. And we can learn so much
974
00:45:56,176 --> 00:45:58,600
from those who have gone before us, both
975
00:45:58,600 --> 00:46:01,560
in terms of making a difference today in
976
00:46:01,560 --> 00:46:06,800
areas of racism and areas of breaking down
977
00:46:06,800 --> 00:46:08,912
barriers such as caste in all of the
978
00:46:08,912 --> 00:46:11,814
different societies. I'm mentioning the
979
00:46:11,814 --> 00:46:13,390
word cast because if you haven't read
980
00:46:13,390 --> 00:46:16,094
Isabel Wilkerson's book or even seen the
981
00:46:16,094 --> 00:46:18,774
movie origin regarding the process of her
982
00:46:18,774 --> 00:46:20,502
writing this book and the difference
983
00:46:20,502 --> 00:46:23,806
between understanding the elements of
984
00:46:23,806 --> 00:46:26,238
racism, but also how sometimes it's not
985
00:46:26,238 --> 00:46:30,342
even necessarily about race, reasons we
986
00:46:30,342 --> 00:46:32,838
other people in society or place
987
00:46:32,838 --> 00:46:35,046
hierarchies in there. And occasionally
988
00:46:35,046 --> 00:46:36,926
when you add the layer of racism, when you
989
00:46:36,926 --> 00:46:39,214
add the layer of enslaved peoples on top
990
00:46:39,214 --> 00:46:42,472
of that, it is so many layers to unpack in
991
00:46:42,472 --> 00:46:45,296
a book about what they've written about,
992
00:46:45,296 --> 00:46:47,760
which is awakening to justice and about
993
00:46:47,760 --> 00:46:49,096
abolition and the stories from the past
994
00:46:49,096 --> 00:46:51,560
and what people were overcoming. Whenever
995
00:46:51,560 --> 00:46:54,936
you treat other human beings as less than
996
00:46:54,936 --> 00:46:57,528
human, without dignity, without respect,
997
00:46:57,528 --> 00:46:59,504
and all the ways that that could be done
998
00:46:59,504 --> 00:47:01,856
and has been done throughout history in
999
00:47:01,856 --> 00:47:04,720
the United States of America and other
1000
00:47:04,720 --> 00:47:08,310
countries in north and South America or
1001
00:47:08,310 --> 00:47:11,062
any other place around the world, then we
1002
00:47:11,062 --> 00:47:14,390
have so much nuance there to unpack. And
1003
00:47:14,390 --> 00:47:17,234
as we face some of the issues we're facing
1004
00:47:17,234 --> 00:47:21,478
today globally, understanding both the
1005
00:47:21,478 --> 00:47:23,206
multicultural aspect of what this
1006
00:47:23,206 --> 00:47:25,358
conversation is about, and certainly these
1007
00:47:25,358 --> 00:47:28,582
two men are just incredible guests to have
1008
00:47:28,582 --> 00:47:30,734
on the show. Doug Stone, with his
1009
00:47:30,734 --> 00:47:32,606
experience in Russia and Korea and
1010
00:47:32,606 --> 00:47:34,046
unpacking some of the intercultural
1011
00:47:34,046 --> 00:47:37,554
aspects of what it even means to be a
1012
00:47:37,554 --> 00:47:40,254
person in his own faith, tradition of
1013
00:47:40,254 --> 00:47:42,346
Christianity or Jamar, and the way he's
1014
00:47:42,346 --> 00:47:43,962
impacted some of the multicultural aspects
1015
00:47:43,962 --> 00:47:46,426
in the United States of America
1016
00:47:46,426 --> 00:47:48,530
specifically. These are nuances to bring
1017
00:47:48,530 --> 00:47:51,650
into the conversation because what has
1018
00:47:51,650 --> 00:47:54,826
happened in the past isn't totally
1019
00:47:54,826 --> 00:47:56,938
detached from what's happening now when it
1020
00:47:56,938 --> 00:48:00,626
comes to any of us standing up for justice
1021
00:48:00,626 --> 00:48:04,350
for all people. And that does actually
1022
00:48:04,350 --> 00:48:07,630
mean all people, all human beings, male,
1023
00:48:07,630 --> 00:48:10,998
female, whatever cultural background or
1024
00:48:10,998 --> 00:48:14,234
race they identify with or socioeconomic
1025
00:48:14,234 --> 00:48:16,462
differences, the ways, like I said, you
1026
00:48:16,462 --> 00:48:18,582
know, that Isabel Wilkerson wrote about in
1027
00:48:18,582 --> 00:48:21,062
her book caste that connected what was
1028
00:48:21,062 --> 00:48:24,446
happening with Adelits in India, who are
1029
00:48:24,446 --> 00:48:26,230
the untouchables, who were having to
1030
00:48:26,230 --> 00:48:28,926
literally scrape out human excrement with
1031
00:48:28,926 --> 00:48:31,062
their own hands, even though they're the
1032
00:48:31,062 --> 00:48:32,966
same race as other people in their own
1033
00:48:32,966 --> 00:48:35,158
country, or what happened in, you know,
1034
00:48:35,158 --> 00:48:37,622
throughout Europe and Germany and
1035
00:48:37,622 --> 00:48:39,974
specifically with the Holocaust, people
1036
00:48:39,974 --> 00:48:43,262
who maybe racially didn't identify
1037
00:48:43,262 --> 00:48:45,894
differently, right? Or, you know, were,
1038
00:48:45,894 --> 00:48:49,174
quote unquote white, you know, appearing,
1039
00:48:49,174 --> 00:48:53,398
presenting and still being exterminated.
1040
00:48:53,398 --> 00:48:55,510
Or you have situations like bringing
1041
00:48:55,510 --> 00:48:57,686
enslaved peoples over from Africa against
1042
00:48:57,686 --> 00:49:00,650
their own will. And certainly the racial
1043
00:49:00,650 --> 00:49:03,066
elements involved in that very stark
1044
00:49:03,066 --> 00:49:06,842
version of racism, which used human bodies
1045
00:49:06,842 --> 00:49:10,354
for free labor, to build wealth for one
1046
00:49:10,354 --> 00:49:12,666
particular race of people, and didn't
1047
00:49:12,666 --> 00:49:15,490
allow, even after enslaved peoples were
1048
00:49:15,490 --> 00:49:18,114
given emancipation, didn't allow them to
1049
00:49:18,114 --> 00:49:20,938
pass on wealth to their own children.
1050
00:49:20,938 --> 00:49:22,386
Certainly racial elements involved in
1051
00:49:22,386 --> 00:49:24,650
that, but also a caste system, right? That
1052
00:49:24,650 --> 00:49:26,026
Isabel Wilkerson was talking about. So,
1053
00:49:26,026 --> 00:49:28,210
once again, even though I'm rendering this
1054
00:49:28,210 --> 00:49:30,130
book, awakening to justice, if you haven't
1055
00:49:30,130 --> 00:49:32,338
read caste, or at least watch the movie
1056
00:49:32,338 --> 00:49:34,170
origins, about how she unpacks that and
1057
00:49:34,170 --> 00:49:36,682
connects that all around the world in ways
1058
00:49:36,682 --> 00:49:38,578
that you wouldn't necessarily connect.
1059
00:49:38,578 --> 00:49:41,266
Dalits in India, what happened in the
1060
00:49:41,266 --> 00:49:42,962
Holocaust, and what's happened in the
1061
00:49:42,962 --> 00:49:44,954
United States of America over time and
1062
00:49:44,954 --> 00:49:48,394
over generations, when we look at enslaved
1063
00:49:48,394 --> 00:49:50,946
peoples, that was 13 generations of people
1064
00:49:50,946 --> 00:49:53,034
that just lived during that portion of
1065
00:49:53,034 --> 00:49:54,754
time. But all the elements that have
1066
00:49:54,754 --> 00:49:58,334
happened since then until now that have
1067
00:49:58,334 --> 00:50:00,558
ripple effects of that. And so looking
1068
00:50:00,558 --> 00:50:03,354
back at people who fought so much for
1069
00:50:03,354 --> 00:50:06,086
abolition and covering these writings in
1070
00:50:06,086 --> 00:50:08,846
the library and something that was just
1071
00:50:08,846 --> 00:50:11,950
tucked away and forgotten and brought out
1072
00:50:11,950 --> 00:50:15,742
for us to understand and look back on at a
1073
00:50:15,742 --> 00:50:18,062
time such as this, when we have
1074
00:50:18,062 --> 00:50:20,006
opportunities to make a difference. So if
1075
00:50:20,006 --> 00:50:22,350
you have not been following Jamar Tisbee
1076
00:50:22,350 --> 00:50:24,464
and his writing and his speaking and his
1077
00:50:24,464 --> 00:50:26,636
work, please do. He's a voice to be
1078
00:50:26,636 --> 00:50:28,380
listened to, and he is making such a
1079
00:50:28,380 --> 00:50:30,492
difference. And also, Doug Stone and the
1080
00:50:30,492 --> 00:50:32,604
difference that they bring together in
1081
00:50:32,604 --> 00:50:35,260
this book, their own unique perspectives,
1082
00:50:35,260 --> 00:50:38,012
even here in this podcast interview, is so
1083
00:50:38,012 --> 00:50:40,644
insightful. So, once again, as always, I'm
1084
00:50:40,644 --> 00:50:42,756
promoting listening to different voices
1085
00:50:42,756 --> 00:50:46,196
because everybody brings a new insight for
1086
00:50:46,196 --> 00:50:47,956
us as we're trying to make a difference
1087
00:50:47,956 --> 00:50:50,036
together around the world and ways that
1088
00:50:50,036 --> 00:50:52,460
bring humans dignity and respect and help
1089
00:50:52,460 --> 00:50:54,944
us understand we have so much more in
1090
00:50:54,944 --> 00:50:57,560
common then we have different. And our
1091
00:50:57,560 --> 00:51:00,424
differences are beautiful. And we want to
1092
00:51:00,424 --> 00:51:02,616
highlight those because it's our different
1093
00:51:02,616 --> 00:51:04,216
perspectives that help each of us think
1094
00:51:04,216 --> 00:51:07,312
more deeply and make a difference together
1095
00:51:07,312 --> 00:51:09,624
in ways we otherwise wouldn't, and at the
1096
00:51:09,624 --> 00:51:11,744
same time, understanding that when we work
1097
00:51:11,744 --> 00:51:13,888
for justice, when we work to make a
1098
00:51:13,888 --> 00:51:16,376
difference together, that we're doing that
1099
00:51:16,376 --> 00:51:18,888
shoulder to shoulder with each other. And
1100
00:51:18,888 --> 00:51:20,928
I really appreciate just having these two
1101
00:51:20,928 --> 00:51:22,856
men speaking into this conversation with
1102
00:51:22,856 --> 00:51:25,806
us today. And so please pick up the book
1103
00:51:25,806 --> 00:51:28,126
awakening to justice. If you have not yet,
1104
00:51:28,126 --> 00:51:29,966
we are going to be having a giveaway, so
1105
00:51:29,966 --> 00:51:34,014
look for details for that on Twitter or X
1106
00:51:34,014 --> 00:51:36,998
and on Instagram. We'll be posting about
1107
00:51:36,998 --> 00:51:40,086
that on our socials. And so would love for
1108
00:51:40,086 --> 00:51:41,870
any of you listening to win a couple of
1109
00:51:41,870 --> 00:51:45,094
books. So look out for that. And if you
1110
00:51:45,094 --> 00:51:47,694
happen to not be one of the winners also
1111
00:51:47,694 --> 00:51:49,854
just consider buying the book. It's
1112
00:51:49,854 --> 00:51:53,252
published by N. Varsity Press, and it is,
1113
00:51:53,252 --> 00:51:54,564
I think, a book that you're really going
1114
00:51:54,564 --> 00:51:57,092
to find insightful, both from the
1115
00:51:57,092 --> 00:51:58,556
historical perspective and what it means
1116
00:51:58,556 --> 00:51:59,996
for us today as we're making a difference
1117
00:51:59,996 --> 00:52:02,732
in conversations around this very topic.
1118
00:52:02,732 --> 00:52:05,588
In the United States of America, in the
1119
00:52:05,588 --> 00:52:09,844
UK, in Australia, in India and Singapore,
1120
00:52:09,844 --> 00:52:11,060
everywhere around the world where you're
1121
00:52:11,060 --> 00:52:12,596
listening, you will gain insights from
1122
00:52:12,596 --> 00:52:14,324
this, even though it's specific to the
1123
00:52:14,324 --> 00:52:16,244
context of the Americas. There's so much
1124
00:52:16,244 --> 00:52:18,028
about this book that really can relate to
1125
00:52:18,028 --> 00:52:20,260
different parts around the world because
1126
00:52:20,260 --> 00:52:23,086
the dialogue around race and as it
1127
00:52:23,086 --> 00:52:25,638
intersects with faith specifically, is a
1128
00:52:25,638 --> 00:52:27,470
conversation we need to keep having as
1129
00:52:27,470 --> 00:52:29,310
we're making a difference together in all
1130
00:52:29,310 --> 00:52:31,222
the parts of the world where we live.
1131
00:52:31,222 --> 00:52:33,182
Thank you so much for being a part of this
1132
00:52:33,182 --> 00:52:34,766
conversation today. Thanks for all the
1133
00:52:34,766 --> 00:52:37,390
work that you're doing wherever you are,
1134
00:52:37,390 --> 00:52:39,238
and I hope that you're taking care of
1135
00:52:39,238 --> 00:52:41,478
yourself. It's another one of those
1136
00:52:41,478 --> 00:52:42,918
podcast episodes where I'm going to
1137
00:52:42,918 --> 00:52:44,926
encourage you to take some time to care
1138
00:52:44,926 --> 00:52:47,118
for yourself because I know many of you
1139
00:52:47,118 --> 00:52:48,814
spend so much time caring for others
1140
00:52:48,814 --> 00:52:51,688
around the world, and we can only give out
1141
00:52:51,688 --> 00:52:54,232
of a cup that's full. So make sure you're
1142
00:52:54,232 --> 00:52:56,656
taking time to just rest. Care for
1143
00:52:56,656 --> 00:52:58,784
yourself in various ways of self care,
1144
00:52:58,784 --> 00:53:00,616
whatever that looks like for you, so that
1145
00:53:00,616 --> 00:53:02,752
you can keep making a difference and as
1146
00:53:02,752 --> 00:53:04,656
always, keep making a difference wherever