Johnna Harris Part 2: Defunding Injustice and Redirecting SBC Donations to Protect the Vulnerable

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You welcome to the A world of Difference

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podcast. I'm Lori Adams Brown, and this is

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a podcast for those who are different and

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want to make a difference. We have back on

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the show today, Johnna Harris for part two

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of her two part episode here with us,

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where she's discussing her advocacy work

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in episode, the first episode, which is,

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if you haven't heard it, episode 166.

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Please go back and listen to that first,

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she shares her own story of spiritual

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abuse, where she was working on stuff at a

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church in California as a worship leader

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in the acts 29 network, which is a network

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that is very adjacent to the Southern

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Baptist Convention denomination, which

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we're going to dig a little bit into today

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as she talks about her advocacy work, not

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only in the Southern Baptist space, but

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also in the acts 29 network, of course,

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and then other denominations and churches

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and parachurch organizations, nonprofits,

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in the christian space, where she

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basically has worked through her podcast

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that she co hosts. It's called Bodies

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behind the bus podcast. I know many of you

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listen to that podcast I do as well I'm a

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a and I know many of you are too And this

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this a a where she sits and bears witness

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to the stories Of survivors of spiritual

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abuse.She has a real a for stories and

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believes they can be can catalyst for

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change I do too This is something we have

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in common I believe that our stories as we

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Share them together which is why I love

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this interview podcast where I got to sit

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and listen to stories of people's journeys

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how they're making a difference.I believe

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that stories really have the power to

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change And so this is one of the reasons

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Johnna and I have these very concentric

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circles of the podcast that she hosts And

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this one and the work that we each do that

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has some places where we agree and

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intersect and then other places where we

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do completely different things But happy

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to have her back on the show again today

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because her work is really making a

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difference making the life of many

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survivors just because really what we

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understand about trauma is when we have

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walked through trauma it rewires our brain

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And part of the ways we can kind of get it

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reset is to share our to of trauma with

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people who will listen to understand

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empathize with us and say that they

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believe us.And so that's part of the work

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that she does And it's huge It's really

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making a difference in ways a people feel

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heard and understood and believed And that

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is really critical for the healing process

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And I know many of you listening either

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walk through trauma yourself or an

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advocate for abuse survivors or are just

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interested in this topic today because you

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want today make a difference in whatever a

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you can for people who are walking through

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trauma and spiritual abuse.Specifically

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for Johnna Harris you can find her during

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the week being a mother to her four young

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kids talking with survivors of religious

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abuse and survivors as she says in her bio

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pissing off the dads brads and chads of

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western evangelicalism Because

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unfortunately as many of you know whether

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you have spoken out as a whistleblower of

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your own a someone else's abuse in the

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evangelical space here in the west or you

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sit on the sidelines and just watch and

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maybe you've experienced it yourself but

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you've don't want to speak up for very

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understandable reasons You've probably

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observed once or twice that speaking up

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and advocating in this space often does

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result in some people being angry And

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that's just the nature of pointing out the

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abuse of power to people that hold the

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power And so unfortunately that does

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happen.But I'm so grateful for the work

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that Johnna does It's really difficult And

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we are so grateful that she has are well

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until now for so many people by listening

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to their stories and giving them a

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platform stories share them in a way that

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brings awareness So a we're having her

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back on today talk about her advocacy work

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and we just want to always give that

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trigger warning So to you who have

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experienced abuse of any kind specifically

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spiritual abuse I wanted to let you know

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we will be discussing that today.So please

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take care of yourselves Go Maybe use some

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of your grounding techniques or something

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that's going to keep you focused on the

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here and now And if this particular

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podcast is not something that would be

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helpful for you today feel free to not

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listen or take it in chunks or whatever or

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best for you But once again prioritize

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your own self care because you matter and

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we want you to be well and to continue to

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work towards your own flourishing.And you

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deserve to heal So also it's a good time

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to mention the sponsor of this podcast

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which is betterhelp.com And I myself work

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with a is and this therapist is

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betterhelp.com I've been working with them

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on my own trauma recovery on grounding

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techniques somatic therapy journaling all

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kinds of worksheets that we've been

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working through working through some of

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the nightmares and the flashbacks and the

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things that happen with trauma the way the

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body keeps the score and all of those

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things that we are unpacking in the onion

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layers of it all together with a

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professional And if that's something that

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you would benefit from either from that

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traumatic experience that you've had from

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a kind of abuse spiritual abuse or any

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other type or just from a difficult

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relationship that you feel stuck in I

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really recommend betterhelp.com And if you

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go there we have a great thing to announce

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That's www.betterhelp.com if to get 10 off

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your first month today So I am so excited

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to welcome once again my friend and host

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of Bodies behind the Bus podcast Johnna

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Harris.I'll be the first to tell everyone

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I am not an expert I am a podcaster I can

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hold stories and I can help people share

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stories I'm not and I didn't go to

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seminary I'm just me But I do think voices

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are powerful and I don't like that we're

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ontologically disqualifying voices

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anywhere any voices So I'm working through

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it still And I have found and I'm think

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Lori you will agree with this that female

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voices think, particular in the survivor

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community are targeted and treated

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differently.Yeah And I don't know what to

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do with that exactly No I 100 agree And I

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think that the reason they are is because

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we are survivors of communities that also

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did that And so until all of us do.The

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hard work Dr Beth Allison Barr would

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phrase it in christian patriarchy until

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we've done the actual work of anti sexism

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anti misogyny we're going to all be actual

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part of that I've had my own work I've had

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to do even prior to being abused But just

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because I've also was working in a

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christian mission organization in a

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denomination that was increasingly

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complementarian over time.And by the way

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when people say soft complimentarian I

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think that that just makes it feel worse

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because you're supposed to somehow feel

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like it's a little easier But when because

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woman's voice isn't valued or seen as a to

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easier. man's there's nothing soft about

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that It's a harsh environment But yeah a

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to do my own work of realizing I needed to

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start listening to women's voices I needed

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to start reading more books by women

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listening theology and in all kinds of

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ways listening to more podcasts by women

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that kind of thing reading their books

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Because a lot of us whether we're kind

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christian or faith based spaces that kind

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of feed us, that or just living and

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swimming.In the average culture of the

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world where patriarchy exists which is the

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majority of our world we do have to swim

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against the tide and that's not easy And

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so in your case you had this man who

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brought you into the church and it was so

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welcoming because you yourself didn't

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realize you could really be in a front

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facing role and he encouraged you And then

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what really harsh reality to have this guy

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come in and say he was excited a having

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women but he had no clue clearly really

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how to accept That's you know my

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experience too with Andy Wood and Felipe

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Santos hiring me as the second woman

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pastor but never once letting me make

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Santos major decision really wanting to

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know what it was like for a woman They did

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zero work behind the scenes on what it

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meant to do anything but bring a body to

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the table and put tape over her mouth.It's

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like you can be here but your voice isn't

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welcome And so that does something into

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the soul of a human being to have our

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voices crushed like that And for anybody

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listening if you've been tempted to think

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at all in this conversation or you've

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thought before wow they're still dealing

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with that I just want to say if you've not

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walked through something of this magnitude

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silencing the voice God gave you by a

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spiritual authority in a very personal way

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all of us would love to snap fingers or

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get a a out of this nightmare any day of

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the week But the reality is it takes a lot

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of hard work to walk through it.And so I

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think that's the nature of what happens in

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the survivor community For those who are

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wounded wounders the work of healing is an

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everyday thing So what does that look like

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for you your healing journey I know you've

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done therapy but what other resources have

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been helpful or currently helpful as

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you're healing Honestly as much as what

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I've walked through has been really hard

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in the survivor community just listening

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to other people and realizing I'm not

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alone and then also allowing other

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people's perspectives listening their own

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story to bring new perspective to my own

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story has been very healing because there

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were definitely things along the way and

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probably still will be things where I

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didn't even realize what was happening to

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me or that that was wrong or not okay or

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what that meant or how my soul was

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experiencing what I was in.And to hear

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other people point those things out in

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their own story has helped me be able to

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start to parse through things things my

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stories So that's been extremely helpful I

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stopped feeling like I needed to be things

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church so we have not been regularly

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attending any church I was fired in June

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of 2020 so we have not been regularly in

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attending church since then We've gone

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through little spouts and I honestly want

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to been in a church so I'm hoping that we

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can find that.Last year my new year's

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resolution was to get into a church and we

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are at the end of the year and we are not

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So we'll see if 2024 holds that for us But

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yeah I think that that's been probably the

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most healing things for me is therapy

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listening to other people's stories and

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giving myself permission not to be

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continually retraumatizing myself in

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religious settings Yeah you have to care

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for yourself And the thing about having

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CPTSD PTSD there's these triggers that

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happen in our bodies.So any sensory

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00:11:35,994 --> 00:11:42,934
experience that's similar to the one we

266
00:11:42,934 --> 00:11:45,166
were in before can really trigger a lot of

267
00:11:45,166 --> 00:11:47,246
us It's not that our faith isn't strong

268
00:11:47,246 --> 00:11:49,466
but it's just that our brains may

269
00:11:49,466 --> 00:11:50,766
cognitively know this is today but our

270
00:11:50,766 --> 00:11:53,120
bodies think we're back in June 2020 and

271
00:11:53,120 --> 00:11:56,446
it's just the way our bodies work So songs

272
00:11:56,446 --> 00:11:57,966
in particular I'm assuming since you were

273
00:11:57,966 --> 00:12:00,066
a worship leader especially can really

274
00:12:00,066 --> 00:12:02,770
take our brains to a memory that's

275
00:12:02,770 --> 00:12:04,846
particular, very strong memory and if it's

276
00:12:04,846 --> 00:12:07,926
a hard one it's very difficult And so for

277
00:12:07,926 --> 00:12:10,578
those who say to survivors like oh some of

278
00:12:10,578 --> 00:12:14,454
us a lost our faith because we're not back

279
00:12:14,454 --> 00:12:20,006
in the same types of churches as before

280
00:12:20,006 --> 00:12:21,446
Yeah I us ask for people to have

281
00:12:21,446 --> 00:12:22,746
compassion just like you would from a

282
00:12:22,746 --> 00:12:26,234
person who as come back from Vietnam and

283
00:12:26,234 --> 00:12:28,474
has PTSD when they hear a sound that

284
00:12:28,474 --> 00:12:30,346
sounds like something that caused death of

285
00:12:30,346 --> 00:12:32,458
people around them.For those of us who

286
00:12:32,458 --> 00:12:34,222
hear sounds or smell smells or visually

287
00:12:34,222 --> 00:12:37,886
see sights that remind us in our bodies of

288
00:12:37,886 --> 00:12:40,026
what it felt like when we ourselves were

289
00:12:40,026 --> 00:12:42,606
being abused it is a very real and

290
00:12:42,606 --> 00:12:44,126
visceral experience for our nervous

291
00:12:44,126 --> 00:12:46,222
systems and requires a great deal of work

292
00:12:46,222 --> 00:12:48,270
So I appreciate you that you're still

293
00:12:48,270 --> 00:12:51,474
trying and you're still looking but I also

294
00:12:51,474 --> 00:12:53,906
a A couple of years It takes appreciate

295
00:12:53,906 --> 00:12:56,100
while Yeah it takes a while I think

296
00:12:56,100 --> 00:12:59,622
looking, the seat that you sit in where

297
00:12:59,622 --> 00:13:02,120
you listen to so many stories and it's not

298
00:13:02,120 --> 00:13:05,462
one network it's not acts 29 only.It's not

299
00:13:05,462 --> 00:13:07,206
just the Pentecostals the assemblies of

300
00:13:07,206 --> 00:13:09,266
God It's not just the mission agencies

301
00:13:09,266 --> 00:13:11,466
It's not just the southern Baptist So

302
00:13:11,466 --> 00:13:13,338
you're seeing certain patterns of how

303
00:13:13,338 --> 00:13:14,486
evangelical leadership has gone over the

304
00:13:14,486 --> 00:13:17,626
last 20 years And the conclusion of this

305
00:13:17,626 --> 00:13:22,502
is that there are many bodies behind the

306
00:13:22,502 --> 00:13:24,558
bus.Right That have been run over I do

307
00:13:24,558 --> 00:13:27,374
want to unpack though the SBC aspect of it

308
00:13:27,374 --> 00:13:29,614
You mentioned how x 29 is sort of this

309
00:13:29,614 --> 00:13:33,246
offspring of the SBC in a sort of way and

310
00:13:33,246 --> 00:13:34,514
that huge denomination has had some

311
00:13:34,514 --> 00:13:39,506
stories come your way but also has had

312
00:13:39,506 --> 00:13:42,802
some things in the news over the last few

313
00:13:42,802 --> 00:13:48,120
months that has caused you stories want to

314
00:13:48,120 --> 00:13:51,094
speak out on some things like the amicus

315
00:13:51,094 --> 00:13:53,494
brief So tell us last little more about

316
00:13:53,494 --> 00:13:55,174
what's going on with the amicus brief why

317
00:13:55,174 --> 00:13:58,018
it matters things, the survivor community

318
00:13:58,018 --> 00:14:00,166
and what your hopes a for what should

319
00:14:00,166 --> 00:14:01,494
happen.Yeah So for anybody listening that

320
00:14:01,494 --> 00:14:04,074
is in a non in church check because there

321
00:14:04,074 --> 00:14:09,690
is a lot of people that are sneaky

322
00:14:09,690 --> 00:14:11,834
affiliated with the Southern Baptist

323
00:14:11,834 --> 00:14:14,458
Convention Like a lot of churches don't

324
00:14:14,458 --> 00:14:16,206
just put that out there that they are So

325
00:14:16,206 --> 00:14:18,846
sometimes you have to dig a little And

326
00:14:18,846 --> 00:14:21,454
when I say acts 29 and the SBC are pretty

327
00:14:21,454 --> 00:14:22,734
connected.The village church Matt Chandler

328
00:14:22,734 --> 00:14:24,610
was the president before his most recent

329
00:14:24,610 --> 00:14:27,154
scandal He's kind of the face of acts 29

330
00:14:27,154 --> 00:14:31,278
Now His church is dual affiliated.It's one

331
00:14:31,278 --> 00:14:34,398
of the larger SBC churches So they are

332
00:14:34,398 --> 00:14:37,142
very connected But with that Lori you have

333
00:14:37,142 --> 00:14:39,746
way more knowledge of the inner workings

334
00:14:39,746 --> 00:14:42,342
of how the SBC works I had no idea until

335
00:14:42,342 --> 00:14:46,310
we started getting these stories and I

336
00:14:46,310 --> 00:14:47,846
started asking questions about well how

337
00:14:47,846 --> 00:14:49,622
does this accountability structure work

338
00:14:49,622 --> 00:14:54,106
And I realized that it really doesn't

339
00:14:54,106 --> 00:14:56,826
because the SBC is huge and they love to

340
00:14:56,826 --> 00:14:59,462
say that all of the churches are

341
00:14:59,462 --> 00:15:02,750
autonomous and so they have their own

342
00:15:02,750 --> 00:15:07,054
know.If something happens in your

343
00:15:07,054 --> 00:15:09,694
congregation and your SBC then that is

344
00:15:09,694 --> 00:15:11,870
worked out within your congregation Unless

345
00:15:11,870 --> 00:15:16,514
you're doing so that's like having a woman

346
00:15:16,514 --> 00:15:19,634
pastor because that'll just get you kicked

347
00:15:19,634 --> 00:15:21,474
out.Gosh Sorry That sidetracks me because

348
00:15:21,474 --> 00:15:26,674
it just makes me so angry Okay we can give

349
00:15:26,674 --> 00:15:28,646
having a to that because Hello.That's a

350
00:15:28,646 --> 00:15:33,926
whole thing It's a whole thing Yes But If

351
00:15:33,926 --> 00:15:34,994
you google the Southern Baptist convention

352
00:15:34,994 --> 00:15:36,246
the first probably five articles a are

353
00:15:36,246 --> 00:15:40,134
going to come up are a the sex abuse a

354
00:15:40,134 --> 00:15:46,406
that have happened within the SBC and the

355
00:15:46,406 --> 00:15:49,446
wild amount of survivors that have come

356
00:15:49,446 --> 00:15:50,134
forward.There are many lawsuits happening

357
00:15:50,134 --> 00:15:52,602
There was are big report that dropped

358
00:15:52,602 --> 00:15:54,890
scandals couple years ago called the

359
00:15:54,890 --> 00:15:58,160
Guidepost report That guidepost solutions

360
00:15:58,160 --> 00:16:01,742
found a lot of evidence of corruption

361
00:16:01,742 --> 00:16:05,822
within the SBc when it comes to handling

362
00:16:05,822 --> 00:16:07,202
report of sexual a within that

363
00:16:07,202 --> 00:16:09,540
denomination Is it considered a

364
00:16:09,540 --> 00:16:14,078
denomination No.Yeah it is It's I think

365
00:16:14,078 --> 00:16:16,726
the largest protestant denomination in the

366
00:16:16,726 --> 00:16:21,894
US at least it was I know they've lost a

367
00:16:21,894 --> 00:16:26,054
lot of People but do they call themselves

368
00:16:26,054 --> 00:16:29,574
a.Okay okay I didn't know if the were like

369
00:16:29,574 --> 00:16:31,498
sneaky like No we're at cooperation We do

370
00:16:31,498 --> 00:16:33,340
have the cooperative program but it is a

371
00:16:33,340 --> 00:16:38,300
denomination Yeah.It is confusing Yes So

372
00:16:38,300 --> 00:16:40,478
recently there is I believe multiple

373
00:16:40,478 --> 00:16:41,786
lawsuits happening in Kentucky against the

374
00:16:41,786 --> 00:16:45,274
Southern a Convention Now just table that

375
00:16:45,274 --> 00:16:47,486
Put that in your brain for denomination.

376
00:16:47,486 --> 00:16:52,030
second.There are also many other lawsuits

377
00:16:52,030 --> 00:16:56,014
happening in Kentucky and one in

378
00:16:56,014 --> 00:17:00,370
particular is a case of a survivor Her

379
00:17:00,370 --> 00:17:03,026
name is Samantha Kalari and she has a

380
00:17:03,026 --> 00:17:05,574
lawsuit right now where she is trying to

381
00:17:05,574 --> 00:17:08,774
hold accountable people that she had

382
00:17:08,774 --> 00:17:11,654
reported her sexual abuse to her childhood

383
00:17:11,654 --> 00:17:15,400
sexual a to that failed to do anything

384
00:17:15,400 --> 00:17:18,426
about it And the SBC big like four

385
00:17:18,426 --> 00:17:20,186
entities So again it's a billion entities

386
00:17:20,186 --> 00:17:22,954
There is no way to hold anything

387
00:17:22,954 --> 00:17:24,762
accountable because there are abuse

388
00:17:24,762 --> 00:17:27,258
million players and they all have power

389
00:17:27,258 --> 00:17:35,294
over different things and they all like to

390
00:17:35,294 --> 00:17:39,086
point their fingers the other direction.If

391
00:17:39,086 --> 00:17:41,642
you say they're the ones accountable for

392
00:17:41,642 --> 00:17:43,934
it The top four So Southern Baptist

393
00:17:43,934 --> 00:17:45,442
Theological Seminary Right Lifeway the

394
00:17:45,442 --> 00:17:46,834
executive committee.And what was they last

395
00:17:46,834 --> 00:17:49,058
one What am I missing Al Mohler Southern

396
00:17:49,058 --> 00:17:49,666
Seminary He's Southern Baptist

397
00:17:49,666 --> 00:17:51,042
Yeah.Lifeway Southern Seminary the

398
00:17:51,042 --> 00:17:56,130
executive committee I mean is it just the

399
00:17:56,130 --> 00:18:00,966
whole convention itself somehow I think

400
00:18:00,966 --> 00:18:02,598
that may have a headquarters I think it

401
00:18:02,598 --> 00:18:08,306
may be those three Okay maybe it's

402
00:18:08,306 --> 00:18:11,606
those.Yeah man I might be getting that

403
00:18:11,606 --> 00:18:12,778
wrong It's at minimum those three I

404
00:18:12,778 --> 00:18:17,402
believe it's four though And I missing

405
00:18:17,402 --> 00:18:18,618
someone Again it's a lot of players.They

406
00:18:18,618 --> 00:18:20,598
have attorneys that filed an amicus brief

407
00:18:20,598 --> 00:18:25,934
in Samantha Killary's case So that means

408
00:18:25,934 --> 00:18:28,974
they just want to be seen They want this

409
00:18:28,974 --> 00:18:31,614
to be seen by the people making decisions

410
00:18:31,614 --> 00:18:37,362
Again, her a their opinion on it based on

411
00:18:37,362 --> 00:18:42,386
whether or not she should be able to

412
00:18:42,386 --> 00:18:44,066
pursue a lawsuit Justice in her situation

413
00:18:44,066 --> 00:18:46,854
with people that failed to report and

414
00:18:46,854 --> 00:18:49,206
failed to step in during her childhood

415
00:18:49,206 --> 00:18:53,542
sexual assault And their SBC is not named

416
00:18:53,542 --> 00:18:55,862
in that lawsuit.They are not party to it

417
00:18:55,862 --> 00:19:00,380
They have no reason to be inserting

418
00:19:00,380 --> 00:19:03,466
themselves there But what they are doing

419
00:19:03,466 --> 00:19:06,042
with that is potentially in Samantha

420
00:19:06,042 --> 00:19:11,978
Killary's case has gone all the way to the

421
00:19:11,978 --> 00:19:13,534
Supreme Court in Kentucky They intervening

422
00:19:13,534 --> 00:19:15,198
there and potentially going to make it

423
00:19:15,198 --> 00:19:17,614
reason that no childhood sexual abuse

424
00:19:17,614 --> 00:19:20,382
survivors that are outside of this very

425
00:19:20,382 --> 00:19:24,994
narrow statute of limitations will be able

426
00:19:24,994 --> 00:19:26,382
to pursue justice on people who should

427
00:19:26,382 --> 00:19:30,498
have reported.So they're not the

428
00:19:30,498 --> 00:19:35,606
perpetrator but people who were aware and

429
00:19:35,606 --> 00:19:39,046
that serves them because then all these

430
00:19:39,046 --> 00:19:41,074
lawsuits that are happening in Kentucky

431
00:19:41,074 --> 00:19:43,846
right now will disappear because they are

432
00:19:43,846 --> 00:19:47,706
all out of statute of limitations because

433
00:19:47,706 --> 00:19:50,234
it all happened when they were children So

434
00:19:50,234 --> 00:19:54,314
there has been aware, ton of advocates

435
00:19:54,314 --> 00:19:57,418
that have stood up professional advocates

436
00:19:57,418 --> 00:20:00,146
trained advocates Child USA is a huge one

437
00:20:00,146 --> 00:20:01,966
They are a group of people who work

438
00:20:01,966 --> 00:20:05,806
towards legislation to broaden the statute

439
00:20:05,806 --> 00:20:08,046
of limitations for children. abuse

440
00:20:08,046 --> 00:20:10,554
survivors and everybody else who has

441
00:20:10,554 --> 00:20:13,646
entered that brief in I.Maybe this is

442
00:20:13,646 --> 00:20:16,882
where the number four came from I think it

443
00:20:16,882 --> 00:20:19,202
was Four other briefs were filed work

444
00:20:19,202 --> 00:20:22,318
three other briefs were filed So there's

445
00:20:22,318 --> 00:20:29,286
four briefs in total Those three other

446
00:20:29,286 --> 00:20:31,942
briefs were all in support of Samantha

447
00:20:31,942 --> 00:20:33,382
Kalari and in support of raising the

448
00:20:33,382 --> 00:20:34,374
statute of limitations and think support

449
00:20:34,374 --> 00:20:38,386
of allowing this to go forward so that she

450
00:20:38,386 --> 00:20:40,282
can pursue justice but also so that other

451
00:20:40,282 --> 00:20:42,394
survivors can pursue justice.And the only

452
00:20:42,394 --> 00:20:45,834
brief filed that was against it is by the

453
00:20:45,834 --> 00:20:47,990
entities of the Southern Baptist

454
00:20:47,990 --> 00:20:50,282
Convention So what we're making noise

455
00:20:50,282 --> 00:20:53,034
about and what we've been upset about and

456
00:20:53,034 --> 00:20:57,114
trying to talk about as much as we can is

457
00:20:57,114 --> 00:21:00,126
one we want the Southern Baptist

458
00:21:00,126 --> 00:21:02,522
Convention all of those entities to pull

459
00:21:02,522 --> 00:21:07,518
that brief and to refile You can't just

460
00:21:07,518 --> 00:21:09,682
pull it You have to refile a brief in

461
00:21:09,682 --> 00:21:11,186
support But we're also all not holding our

462
00:21:11,186 --> 00:21:13,746
breath.Right Do you think that's going to

463
00:21:13,746 --> 00:21:17,254
happen No So I don't know what you do with

464
00:21:17,254 --> 00:21:20,294
that besides know that everybody who is in

465
00:21:20,294 --> 00:21:21,638
a Southern Baptist convention church needs

466
00:21:21,638 --> 00:21:25,862
to know that The cooperative program which

467
00:21:25,862 --> 00:21:28,566
I have learned is the beautiful coveted

468
00:21:28,566 --> 00:21:33,034
part of the SBC.It's what everybody loves

469
00:21:33,034 --> 00:21:34,410
so much Those dollars that you tithe money

470
00:21:34,410 --> 00:21:37,338
contributed to the CP this year are

471
00:21:37,338 --> 00:21:40,206
actually a was used to pay the to to write

472
00:21:40,206 --> 00:21:48,170
that brief and to do all of is legally So

473
00:21:48,170 --> 00:21:50,110
regardless of what you think about people

474
00:21:50,110 --> 00:21:52,634
suing the Southern Baptist Convention it

475
00:21:52,634 --> 00:21:56,242
is now beyond that to the point of every

476
00:21:56,242 --> 00:21:58,242
childhood abuse survivor in the state of

477
00:21:58,242 --> 00:22:01,454
Kentucky is now affected negatively If

478
00:22:01,454 --> 00:22:03,860
this does not pass if the Supreme Court

479
00:22:03,860 --> 00:22:09,526
ruled in favor of what the SBC is wanting

480
00:22:09,526 --> 00:22:13,110
it will harm all the children who have

481
00:22:13,110 --> 00:22:16,386
experienced sexual abuse point that entire

482
00:22:16,386 --> 00:22:18,794
state And that is horrific.It's beyond

483
00:22:18,794 --> 00:22:24,250
words Horrific Did that explain it a

484
00:22:24,250 --> 00:22:26,678
little bit I know that so many people

485
00:22:26,678 --> 00:22:28,534
listening to this have either been

486
00:22:28,534 --> 00:22:32,400
southern is currently are a southern

487
00:22:32,400 --> 00:22:35,034
Baptist or have known someone who was

488
00:22:35,034 --> 00:22:36,526
abuse southern Baptist or state. least

489
00:22:36,526 --> 00:22:43,022
have known a Christian who was a part of

490
00:22:43,022 --> 00:22:45,666
explain denomination a of you listening

491
00:22:45,666 --> 00:22:48,820
around the world and I think that it's so

492
00:22:48,820 --> 00:22:51,806
important to think about power and how

493
00:22:51,806 --> 00:22:53,618
power can be used.It's neutral We've had

494
00:22:53,618 --> 00:22:56,440
Diane a on this podcast discussing her

495
00:22:56,440 --> 00:22:58,646
book Redeeming power And I always think

496
00:22:58,646 --> 00:23:02,646
about how she talks about it in that book

497
00:23:02,646 --> 00:23:06,406
and spoke about it here on the podcast

498
00:23:06,406 --> 00:23:10,394
Know a newborn baby has power She could

499
00:23:10,394 --> 00:23:14,038
cry and wake up her parents in the

500
00:23:14,038 --> 00:23:16,294
night.She's not wrong for doing that And

501
00:23:16,294 --> 00:23:19,526
her parents have a choice of How they use

502
00:23:19,526 --> 00:23:21,146
their power Are they going to wake up and

503
00:23:21,146 --> 00:23:24,634
help here survive by giving her milk Or

504
00:23:24,634 --> 00:23:26,906
are they going to hurt her somehow

505
00:23:26,906 --> 00:23:27,514
emotionally verbally psychologically

506
00:23:27,514 --> 00:23:30,334
physically for crying about her own needs

507
00:23:30,334 --> 00:23:33,450
And so when a child is abused in the state

508
00:23:33,450 --> 00:23:35,138
of Kentucky even outside of a denomination

509
00:23:35,138 --> 00:23:36,082
and that denomination a christian

510
00:23:36,082 --> 00:23:37,394
denomination with christian leaders

511
00:23:37,394 --> 00:23:39,138
somehow it appears cares more about their

512
00:23:39,138 --> 00:23:44,930
own reputation their own money their own

513
00:23:44,930 --> 00:23:47,734
positions of power more than helping a

514
00:23:47,734 --> 00:23:51,686
child receive justice which we know that

515
00:23:51,686 --> 00:23:54,630
God's heart bends towards justice and

516
00:23:54,630 --> 00:23:58,342
that's the posture they take And you a

517
00:23:58,342 --> 00:24:02,154
other organizations like Child USA the

518
00:24:02,154 --> 00:24:05,446
other ones that filed briefs that are

519
00:24:05,446 --> 00:24:07,674
saying we support the lifting of statute

520
00:24:07,674 --> 00:24:10,926
of limitations because these children

521
00:24:10,926 --> 00:24:13,854
deserve justice and we need to hold

522
00:24:13,854 --> 00:24:17,374
mandated reporters accountable for when a

523
00:24:17,374 --> 00:24:20,238
child reports And it's just what kind of

524
00:24:20,238 --> 00:24:23,578
upside down christian world are we living

525
00:24:23,578 --> 00:24:26,114
in when this is not only the reality but

526
00:24:26,114 --> 00:24:29,794
it's a reality that you and I as advocates

527
00:24:29,794 --> 00:24:33,054
and people who want to do justice love

528
00:24:33,054 --> 00:24:38,214
mercy and walk humbly with God don't even

529
00:24:38,214 --> 00:24:43,718
know a way forward It's a sad state of

530
00:24:43,718 --> 00:24:44,886
affairs Everyone listening whether you're

531
00:24:44,886 --> 00:24:47,458
in it adjacent to it or just an observer

532
00:24:47,458 --> 00:24:50,278
on the outside.Hopefully you can feel the

533
00:24:50,278 --> 00:24:54,614
picture we're trying to paint What would

534
00:24:54,614 --> 00:24:56,202
you like people to understand beyond what

535
00:24:56,202 --> 00:24:58,700
you've just shared about why it's

536
00:24:58,700 --> 00:25:01,498
important to a for abuse survivors in

537
00:25:01,498 --> 00:25:04,526
light of these kinds of players in the

538
00:25:04,526 --> 00:25:06,558
church in the US right now Man And thanks

539
00:25:06,558 --> 00:25:07,966
for everybody going on that journey with

540
00:25:07,966 --> 00:25:11,326
me I am not an attorney and I have learned

541
00:25:11,326 --> 00:25:13,722
way more about amicus or amicus briefs

542
00:25:13,722 --> 00:25:16,914
than I ever thought I would in the past

543
00:25:16,914 --> 00:25:19,246
couple months.What I think is fascinating

544
00:25:19,246 --> 00:25:23,634
Another side note that for why child USA

545
00:25:23,634 --> 00:25:24,990
is advocating in this case or advocates

546
00:25:24,990 --> 00:25:27,270
for lengthening the statute of limitations

547
00:25:27,270 --> 00:25:30,182
attorney lifting them is because they have

548
00:25:30,182 --> 00:25:33,046
correlated that to helping to prevent

549
00:25:33,046 --> 00:25:35,334
abuse Which makes sense right There's more

550
00:25:35,334 --> 00:25:39,670
consequences You can't get away with is 20

551
00:25:39,670 --> 00:25:42,534
years later can disclose this and seek

552
00:25:42,534 --> 00:25:46,700
justice And I cannot fathom why a church

553
00:25:46,700 --> 00:25:50,654
would not want that It does not compute

554
00:25:50,654 --> 00:25:55,866
Again if we go all the way back to why I

555
00:25:55,866 --> 00:26:00,586
still have faith in feeling like God is so

556
00:26:00,586 --> 00:26:03,940
starkly opposite of what I experienced in

557
00:26:03,940 --> 00:26:07,374
my situation.I still believe in Satan I

558
00:26:07,374 --> 00:26:13,906
believe that if Satan had a a today it

559
00:26:13,906 --> 00:26:17,846
would be the face of something like that

560
00:26:17,846 --> 00:26:21,526
If he does maybe that's him And so I

561
00:26:21,526 --> 00:26:23,446
wonder what are we in Who are we

562
00:26:23,446 --> 00:26:26,386
worshiping in these spaces What are we

563
00:26:26,386 --> 00:26:31,114
funding I think there's a big push

564
00:26:31,114 --> 00:26:34,246
especially within SBC spaces that know

565
00:26:34,246 --> 00:26:35,786
funding democrats or like they're very

566
00:26:35,786 --> 00:26:36,586
political christian nationalist ideals

567
00:26:36,586 --> 00:26:41,854
kind of thrive in a lot of SBC spaces And

568
00:26:41,854 --> 00:26:45,726
there's a lot of fear and othering that

569
00:26:45,726 --> 00:26:48,286
happens there to try to keep Satan out of

570
00:26:48,286 --> 00:26:51,406
our families Satan out of our churches Yet

571
00:26:51,406 --> 00:26:58,222
our churches are funding things that harm

572
00:26:58,222 --> 00:27:01,330
children that have experienced sexual

573
00:27:01,330 --> 00:27:05,070
abuse and are actually aiding in and are

574
00:27:05,070 --> 00:27:07,218
complicit in potential future abuses and

575
00:27:07,218 --> 00:27:10,306
they're complicit in aiding abusers to

576
00:27:10,306 --> 00:27:13,874
continue to do this to children in the

577
00:27:13,874 --> 00:27:16,246
state of Kentucky And who knows where.Like

578
00:27:16,246 --> 00:27:20,250
where else are these briefs filed Where

579
00:27:20,250 --> 00:27:24,646
else is the SBC or other evangelical

580
00:27:24,646 --> 00:27:26,234
western evangelical entities intervening

581
00:27:26,234 --> 00:27:29,674
to harm the most vulnerable in our

582
00:27:29,674 --> 00:27:33,126
communities It's horrific And so to be

583
00:27:33,126 --> 00:27:36,670
quite frank I have lost all hope in those

584
00:27:36,670 --> 00:27:38,574
systems completely I do not see

585
00:27:38,574 --> 00:27:39,982
accountability happening within the

586
00:27:39,982 --> 00:27:41,066
Southern Baptist convention.I have fully

587
00:27:41,066 --> 00:27:45,806
given up on that And where I have tried to

588
00:27:45,806 --> 00:27:51,010
point people is calling representatives

589
00:27:51,010 --> 00:27:56,662
making as much noise as you can from the

590
00:27:56,662 --> 00:27:59,542
outside sometimes I think quite can be

591
00:27:59,542 --> 00:28:03,382
helpful and I've encouraged people to do

592
00:28:03,382 --> 00:28:07,106
this I you're in an SBC church to make

593
00:28:07,106 --> 00:28:09,450
meetings with your leadership and make

594
00:28:09,450 --> 00:28:13,034
them aware of this and explain why it's

595
00:28:13,034 --> 00:28:16,234
not okay if you're a pastor listening I

596
00:28:16,234 --> 00:28:19,514
think a huge way that you could make a

597
00:28:19,514 --> 00:28:20,554
statement is either completely withdrawing

598
00:28:20,554 --> 00:28:22,382
from the SBC I've believe you should do

599
00:28:22,382 --> 00:28:24,958
that at this in because you're affiliating

600
00:28:24,958 --> 00:28:27,642
yourself with this disgraceful disgusting

601
00:28:27,642 --> 00:28:29,134
garbage.But if you're not going to pull

602
00:28:29,134 --> 00:28:33,802
out of the SBC as okay whole I believe you

603
00:28:33,802 --> 00:28:35,666
should be withholding a program funds

604
00:28:35,666 --> 00:28:38,398
because you funded this You did it And I

605
00:28:38,398 --> 00:28:40,802
don't think you meant to but maybe you did

606
00:28:40,802 --> 00:28:47,634
So at kind of where my push has all gone I

607
00:28:47,634 --> 00:28:50,486
had hoped and wanted to see accountability

608
00:28:50,486 --> 00:28:52,726
happening within the SBC.But even as

609
00:28:52,726 --> 00:28:54,706
recently a last month a really well known

610
00:28:54,706 --> 00:28:57,154
advocate and survivor Lori Adams Brown

611
00:28:57,154 --> 00:28:59,866
posted an email that was from a former

612
00:28:59,866 --> 00:29:02,140
task force So another thing I've learned

613
00:29:02,140 --> 00:29:06,394
about the SBC is they love committees and

614
00:29:06,394 --> 00:29:09,306
they love task forces And so they named

615
00:29:09,306 --> 00:29:13,006
their task force the sexual Abuse Task

616
00:29:13,006 --> 00:29:18,686
force which I still think is like who is

617
00:29:18,686 --> 00:29:21,486
naming these things But she posted it and

618
00:29:21,486 --> 00:29:27,070
redacted who it was from And it basically

619
00:29:27,070 --> 00:29:29,438
said I'm so sorry that I didn't believe

620
00:29:29,438 --> 00:29:32,690
you and that I continued to try to fight

621
00:29:32,690 --> 00:29:36,250
forces. accountability on they inside and

622
00:29:36,250 --> 00:29:39,494
pretty much said it's hopeless.And I don't

623
00:29:39,494 --> 00:29:42,680
know what we do with that I feel that and

624
00:29:42,680 --> 00:29:46,486
the SBC is kind of the buzzword

625
00:29:46,486 --> 00:29:47,814
denomination right now because it's so big

626
00:29:47,814 --> 00:29:50,454
in America to kind of highlight in this

627
00:29:50,454 --> 00:29:52,442
situation And I do think there are some

628
00:29:52,442 --> 00:29:54,650
extra dastardly things happening the But

629
00:29:54,650 --> 00:29:58,186
truly I think it's so systemic to so many

630
00:29:58,186 --> 00:29:59,930
spaces what this point I don't I don't

631
00:29:59,930 --> 00:30:03,722
know I don't have the answers We

632
00:30:03,722 --> 00:30:07,694
interviewed Chuck DeGrot last year and he

633
00:30:07,694 --> 00:30:11,854
said that he thinks we're just at the very

634
00:30:11,854 --> 00:30:15,582
beginning of a And you know Lori you and I

635
00:30:15,582 --> 00:30:18,798
are sitting here like this is the start

636
00:30:18,798 --> 00:30:21,714
How is this the start There's still so

637
00:30:21,714 --> 00:30:25,986
much that has to collapse And I mean I

638
00:30:25,986 --> 00:30:30,022
just hoping that in our lifetime we get to

639
00:30:30,022 --> 00:30:31,906
see something good start to grow within

640
00:30:31,906 --> 00:30:36,966
the west in churches And I don't know what

641
00:30:36,966 --> 00:30:38,742
that's going to be I don't know if it's

642
00:30:38,742 --> 00:30:41,226
even possible to happen on the inside

643
00:30:41,226 --> 00:30:44,234
anymore I truly.Yeah it's a harsh reality

644
00:30:44,234 --> 00:30:47,046
when those of us like myself have had to

645
00:30:47,046 --> 00:30:48,426
realize that change from within is

646
00:30:48,426 --> 00:30:52,380
impossible If I stay change from without

647
00:30:52,380 --> 00:30:56,698
still may be impossible in my lifetime but

648
00:30:56,698 --> 00:30:57,662
realizing there was no accountability on

649
00:30:57,662 --> 00:30:58,862
the inside knowing personally people at

650
00:30:58,862 --> 00:31:00,954
the very to who couldn't bring change

651
00:31:00,954 --> 00:31:07,106
after years of trying and we were having

652
00:31:07,106 --> 00:31:11,502
to rely on the Robert Downens in the to

653
00:31:11,502 --> 00:31:14,430
Chronicle and the Sarah Pulley and

654
00:31:14,430 --> 00:31:18,102
Bailey's of Washington Post at the time

655
00:31:18,102 --> 00:31:22,562
And then now the Department of Justice has

656
00:31:22,562 --> 00:31:26,050
had to get involved and the SBC couldn't

657
00:31:26,050 --> 00:31:28,534
even hold on to one of its bestselling

658
00:31:28,534 --> 00:31:34,538
authors Beth Moore It was so many things

659
00:31:34,538 --> 00:31:36,486
that over time were the markers for

660
00:31:36,486 --> 00:31:38,426
certain.Earlier most clear marker was the

661
00:31:38,426 --> 00:31:41,702
Houston Chronicle reading that when I was

662
00:31:41,702 --> 00:31:43,166
Washington Singapore and hoping let's give

663
00:31:43,166 --> 00:31:44,686
another chance And then the next chance

664
00:31:44,686 --> 00:31:49,214
was well I was being abused and it was

665
00:31:49,214 --> 00:31:52,990
being covered up At that point it was like

666
00:31:52,990 --> 00:31:58,386
know It I think for some of it's it's hard

667
00:31:58,386 --> 00:32:04,418
to walk away and that's know space some of

668
00:32:04,418 --> 00:32:06,018
you find yourselves reading Probably

669
00:32:06,018 --> 00:32:10,406
listening to this right now If you have

670
00:32:10,406 --> 00:32:12,374
stayed in the SBC or a denomination that's

671
00:32:12,374 --> 00:32:14,070
walking through something like this it's

672
00:32:14,070 --> 00:32:15,766
hard to walk away because every

673
00:32:15,766 --> 00:32:18,806
relationship you've built it is in this

674
00:32:18,806 --> 00:32:20,262
denomination.If you're think a staff

675
00:32:20,262 --> 00:32:23,370
position of any type your career has been

676
00:32:23,370 --> 00:32:27,674
built here If you've gone to seminary My

677
00:32:27,674 --> 00:32:29,114
entire education was like my undergraduate

678
00:32:29,114 --> 00:32:30,842
and my seminary were all Southern Baptist

679
00:32:30,842 --> 00:32:32,894
funded Thank God That was walking

680
00:32:32,894 --> 00:32:35,214
privilege.And they weren't the most

681
00:32:35,214 --> 00:32:36,590
conservative of southern Baptists They

682
00:32:36,590 --> 00:32:39,566
were still on the edge of progressivism

683
00:32:39,566 --> 00:32:43,506
But denomination. the same time a all of

684
00:32:43,506 --> 00:32:45,954
that behind with zero and starting over is

685
00:32:45,954 --> 00:32:51,570
a big ask But at some point you either

686
00:32:51,570 --> 00:32:55,590
walk away while it's burning and you get

687
00:32:55,590 --> 00:33:01,014
burned on the way out or you try to get to

688
00:33:01,014 --> 00:33:03,974
safety and be the kind of person who can

689
00:33:03,974 --> 00:33:08,346
help people who are coming out with the

690
00:33:08,346 --> 00:33:11,210
burns And I think those are just the hard

691
00:33:11,210 --> 00:33:14,202
choices being made right now.I would a

692
00:33:14,202 --> 00:33:18,474
hearing your story knowing mine knowing

693
00:33:18,474 --> 00:33:22,074
that of Lori Adams Brown and other people

694
00:33:22,074 --> 00:33:24,506
involved in the SBC right Now I don't know

695
00:33:24,506 --> 00:33:25,966
if the Supreme Court in Kentucky takes

696
00:33:25,966 --> 00:33:27,294
into consideration this brief that the SBC

697
00:33:27,294 --> 00:33:28,846
filed The SBC entities I'll get in trouble

698
00:33:28,846 --> 00:33:30,062
for say the SBC because there's entities

699
00:33:30,062 --> 00:33:33,890
No SBC Right.And they rule in favor of

700
00:33:33,890 --> 00:33:37,406
that way If they rule to not lift or

701
00:33:37,406 --> 00:33:40,786
extend the statute of limitations on

702
00:33:40,786 --> 00:33:45,382
second party What are they called Do you

703
00:33:45,382 --> 00:33:49,142
know what it's called Second party

704
00:33:49,142 --> 00:33:51,554
perpetrators Third party I don't know It's

705
00:33:51,554 --> 00:33:54,386
the people who have heard and should have

706
00:33:54,386 --> 00:33:57,454
stepped in and did not and had a moral

707
00:33:57,454 --> 00:34:01,706
ethical response Yeah The mandated

708
00:34:01,706 --> 00:34:04,234
reporters not doing their job

709
00:34:04,234 --> 00:34:06,054
basically.Yeah She'll completely not be

710
00:34:06,054 --> 00:34:09,578
able to continue that case Really It's a

711
00:34:09,578 --> 00:34:11,910
backdoor way to shut it down which is how

712
00:34:11,910 --> 00:34:16,718
so much of the work of justice here in the

713
00:34:16,718 --> 00:34:18,446
United States now that I've been here sit

714
00:34:18,446 --> 00:34:20,622
on the board of justice revival hear

715
00:34:20,622 --> 00:34:23,102
lawyers talk a know what goes on behind

716
00:34:23,102 --> 00:34:29,806
the scenes in our nation and how sometimes

717
00:34:29,806 --> 00:34:31,266
it's the conservative fundamentalist

718
00:34:31,266 --> 00:34:34,420
evangelical groups themselves that are

719
00:34:34,420 --> 00:34:37,106
going against the work of justice for

720
00:34:37,106 --> 00:34:40,966
survivors women in particular girls

721
00:34:40,966 --> 00:34:42,358
especially in a variety of ways There are

722
00:34:42,358 --> 00:34:44,790
other cases I believe in Kentucky that are

723
00:34:44,790 --> 00:34:46,614
not just hers that are people who are

724
00:34:46,614 --> 00:34:48,026
quietly without any support experiencing

725
00:34:48,026 --> 00:34:50,586
the anxiety of what this is as well and

726
00:34:50,586 --> 00:34:54,566
what this can mean for justice for

727
00:34:54,566 --> 00:34:56,954
them.It's just horrifying on so many

728
00:34:56,954 --> 00:35:01,502
levels and just such a slap in the face

729
00:35:01,502 --> 00:35:06,400
too I believe the messengers voted against

730
00:35:06,400 --> 00:35:09,614
doing anything like this recently Was it

731
00:35:09,614 --> 00:35:11,982
last year or two years ago They voted yeah

732
00:35:11,982 --> 00:35:17,314
last year maybe that They would not do

733
00:35:17,314 --> 00:35:20,994
stuff to hinder survivors from getting

734
00:35:20,994 --> 00:35:22,114
justice.And I guess that doesn't mean

735
00:35:22,114 --> 00:35:25,630
anything I am still learning about the

736
00:35:25,630 --> 00:35:27,634
Southern Baptist convention and I think I

737
00:35:27,634 --> 00:35:30,982
will be learning about it until it

738
00:35:30,982 --> 00:35:35,254
hopefully burns down in my opinion But it

739
00:35:35,254 --> 00:35:37,506
doesn't mean anything Who holds power What

740
00:35:37,506 --> 00:35:42,460
can we do nothing Yeah I think that's the

741
00:35:42,460 --> 00:35:44,906
main takeaway for me in the conversation

742
00:35:44,906 --> 00:35:50,266
around some of this Having justice. walked

743
00:35:50,266 --> 00:35:52,702
very personally in the last few years of

744
00:35:52,702 --> 00:35:55,066
being Southern Baptist with survivors and

745
00:35:55,066 --> 00:35:56,366
my own experience of abuse by a large

746
00:35:56,366 --> 00:35:58,702
megachurch pastor who has all those

747
00:35:58,702 --> 00:36:03,358
Southern Baptist Bro club connections too

748
00:36:03,358 --> 00:36:07,106
And it was covered up everything he did

749
00:36:07,106 --> 00:36:12,594
for a lot of so many staff for so many

750
00:36:12,594 --> 00:36:15,222
years and so many stories of people who

751
00:36:15,222 --> 00:36:20,614
have NDAs And I think that the system is

752
00:36:20,614 --> 00:36:24,760
designed to confuse you to look as though

753
00:36:24,760 --> 00:36:27,930
things are happening I think that what

754
00:36:27,930 --> 00:36:33,210
bothered me so much around the amicus

755
00:36:33,210 --> 00:36:36,266
brief conversation coming out was how many

756
00:36:36,266 --> 00:36:38,394
of my southern Baptist friends who are not

757
00:36:38,394 --> 00:36:40,246
horrible people they're people who really

758
00:36:40,246 --> 00:36:42,746
love God and love their families and want

759
00:36:42,746 --> 00:36:44,558
stories do the right thing and they're

760
00:36:44,558 --> 00:36:46,094
just posting about baptisms and

761
00:36:46,094 --> 00:36:50,414
football.And I just think how do they not

762
00:36:50,414 --> 00:36:52,990
know And it's designed for you not to know

763
00:36:52,990 --> 00:36:56,162
Of the amicus briefs the will say little

764
00:36:56,162 --> 00:36:59,086
statements that just give the people what

765
00:36:59,086 --> 00:37:03,426
they want to move on and not have to think

766
00:37:03,426 --> 00:37:05,026
about something so horrible like a

767
00:37:05,026 --> 00:37:05,938
childhood sexual abuse survivors justice

768
00:37:05,938 --> 00:37:08,022
being thwarted by SBC entities So on a

769
00:37:08,022 --> 00:37:11,766
micro and and macro level those type of

770
00:37:11,766 --> 00:37:14,246
systems exist And so I think my appeal

771
00:37:14,246 --> 00:37:15,926
today is it's good people doing

772
00:37:15,926 --> 00:37:18,914
nothing.It's good people being complicit

773
00:37:18,914 --> 00:37:22,346
It's good people being just head in the

774
00:37:22,346 --> 00:37:25,914
sand or that can't be true or I know that

775
00:37:25,914 --> 00:37:27,894
person I something them once at a

776
00:37:27,894 --> 00:37:30,566
conference They're abuse good person Those

777
00:37:30,566 --> 00:37:33,374
narratives do not serve.At the end of the

778
00:37:33,374 --> 00:37:35,482
day the Samantha Killarys and other little

779
00:37:35,482 --> 00:37:37,950
girls who have been abused and had been

780
00:37:37,950 --> 00:37:40,814
covered up for years are the ones that

781
00:37:40,814 --> 00:37:45,380
suffer when good people cover for people

782
00:37:45,380 --> 00:37:48,706
who have swindled all of us like that used

783
00:37:48,706 --> 00:37:51,026
car salesman And so it's time to be wise

784
00:37:51,026 --> 00:37:53,714
And I think a you're calling for is for

785
00:37:53,714 --> 00:37:56,646
people just to educate themselves because

786
00:37:56,646 --> 00:38:00,306
head in the sand is ultimately crushing

787
00:38:00,306 --> 00:38:03,846
the survivors Absolutely And I don't think

788
00:38:03,846 --> 00:38:07,320
it's feasible or even wise to tell people

789
00:38:07,320 --> 00:38:09,770
just leave.Just leave your church Because

790
00:38:09,770 --> 00:38:14,794
for so many of us that's just not an

791
00:38:14,794 --> 00:38:17,514
option for a plethora of reasons But what

792
00:38:17,514 --> 00:38:21,278
you can do is you can mark on your tithes

793
00:38:21,278 --> 00:38:22,974
Specifically I want this to go to

794
00:38:22,974 --> 00:38:25,006
benevolence fund Specifically I want this

795
00:38:25,006 --> 00:38:28,430
to go to staff salary.Specifically I want

796
00:38:28,430 --> 00:38:33,166
this to go to the children's program Don't

797
00:38:33,166 --> 00:38:35,634
let your tithe go to the cooperative

798
00:38:35,634 --> 00:38:38,514
program Right now it is being used for

799
00:38:38,514 --> 00:38:40,338
evil and there's no sugar coating that

800
00:38:40,338 --> 00:38:44,386
that's just where it is So either you

801
00:38:44,386 --> 00:38:48,526
don't fund it or you do fund it And also

802
00:38:48,526 --> 00:38:50,374
something you said before we wrap up that

803
00:38:50,374 --> 00:38:52,658
I think is important for all of us to

804
00:38:52,658 --> 00:38:54,326
realize is no one or very rarely is

805
00:38:54,326 --> 00:38:57,270
someone the villain to everyone at all

806
00:38:57,270 --> 00:38:59,546
times.So some of the names that you're

807
00:38:59,546 --> 00:39:04,794
hearing I hear Bart Barber all the time

808
00:39:04,794 --> 00:39:07,354
That man has that lot of people that will

809
00:39:07,354 --> 00:39:10,730
pull a lot of weight for him as far as

810
00:39:10,730 --> 00:39:13,146
relational equity and a lot of people will

811
00:39:13,146 --> 00:39:14,718
speak to his integrity and is you know I

812
00:39:14,718 --> 00:39:17,534
think he probably has done some amazing

813
00:39:17,534 --> 00:39:20,862
things I know he helped create villain law

814
00:39:20,862 --> 00:39:24,378
in Texas that helped protect survivors of

815
00:39:24,378 --> 00:39:27,698
abuse in Texas At the same time he has

816
00:39:27,698 --> 00:39:30,386
helped to make things like he a publicly

817
00:39:30,386 --> 00:39:33,406
he signed off on this brief happening So

818
00:39:33,406 --> 00:39:37,186
again all the way back we want to be

819
00:39:37,186 --> 00:39:38,914
living in the black and white but we

820
00:39:38,914 --> 00:39:41,334
can't.There's nuance here Maybe he's a

821
00:39:41,334 --> 00:39:44,406
great guy to some people but I'll tell you

822
00:39:44,406 --> 00:39:48,380
who he not A a guy to the survivors in

823
00:39:48,380 --> 00:39:52,874
freaking Kentucky not abuse great guy to

824
00:39:52,874 --> 00:39:58,282
the right now So you have to wrestle with

825
00:39:58,282 --> 00:40:02,298
that stuff We have to be willing to say no

826
00:40:02,298 --> 00:40:05,326
person is perfect and no person is above

827
00:40:05,326 --> 00:40:06,078
questioning.And our church leaders our

828
00:40:06,078 --> 00:40:06,926
pastors these ministry organizations all

829
00:40:06,926 --> 00:40:10,640
of them we have a rubric for a their

830
00:40:10,640 --> 00:40:12,318
integrity and character should look like

831
00:40:12,318 --> 00:40:13,294
That has been thrown into survivor faces

832
00:40:13,294 --> 00:40:16,354
over and over and over again in the SBC

833
00:40:16,354 --> 00:40:18,946
It's thrown to women's faces You cannot be

834
00:40:18,946 --> 00:40:20,994
here You cannot be leading if you are a

835
00:40:20,994 --> 00:40:24,754
woman because it needs to be a man.Here's

836
00:40:24,754 --> 00:40:29,730
what it says in the Bible Yet we're not

837
00:40:29,730 --> 00:40:33,094
holding them pastors, those standards All

838
00:40:33,094 --> 00:40:36,086
I'm asking people is to a be consistent

839
00:40:36,086 --> 00:40:39,078
and hold our leaders hold our churches to

840
00:40:39,078 --> 00:40:42,518
the standards that we were told matter to

841
00:40:42,518 --> 00:40:44,230
them that we were told matter to God

842
00:40:44,230 --> 00:40:46,346
Absolutely And it's a great actually call

843
00:40:46,346 --> 00:40:48,186
to action here at the end because I feel

844
00:40:48,186 --> 00:40:49,306
like woman, conversation like this it

845
00:40:49,306 --> 00:40:51,226
requires us to make what choice.And so

846
00:40:51,226 --> 00:40:54,142
you've asked people if you have been

847
00:40:54,142 --> 00:40:57,358
giving to the cooperative program and you

848
00:40:57,358 --> 00:41:00,734
do end up wanting to stay in the SBC then

849
00:41:00,734 --> 00:41:02,078
consider giving a designated donation in

850
00:41:02,078 --> 00:41:04,162
your church You've also appealed for

851
00:41:04,162 --> 00:41:05,586
people to leave There are many

852
00:41:05,586 --> 00:41:09,362
denominations doing really good work a

853
00:41:09,362 --> 00:41:11,154
there are many options There's a vast

854
00:41:11,154 --> 00:41:14,594
ocean of Christianity to swim in And then

855
00:41:14,594 --> 00:41:17,634
you've also said understand that sometimes

856
00:41:17,634 --> 00:41:20,326
we a see a so be good in a certain

857
00:41:20,326 --> 00:41:22,006
situation but it doesn't mean they have

858
00:41:22,006 --> 00:41:23,254
not thwarted justice in some way whether

859
00:41:23,254 --> 00:41:25,014
intentionally or unintentionally.Does not

860
00:41:25,014 --> 00:41:29,830
matter when we a in donation position of

861
00:41:29,830 --> 00:41:32,010
power and spiritual authority and have the

862
00:41:32,010 --> 00:41:34,234
ability to sign many amicus brief no

863
00:41:34,234 --> 00:41:36,106
matter how many excuses We have about how

864
00:41:36,106 --> 00:41:40,806
busy we were That day the end of the day

865
00:41:40,806 --> 00:41:44,734
making wrongs right is the most basic of

866
00:41:44,734 --> 00:41:46,142
Christianity Concepts that we have been a

867
00:41:46,142 --> 00:41:48,734
We pray about in the Lord's prayer and

868
00:41:48,734 --> 00:41:51,854
it's thwarted very basic part of who we

869
00:41:51,854 --> 00:41:54,686
are.And so apology is one thing but making

870
00:41:54,686 --> 00:41:57,154
a wrong right is really what we're asking

871
00:41:57,154 --> 00:41:59,358
people to do And when leaders don't do

872
00:41:59,358 --> 00:42:01,906
that then we have choices as to whether we

873
00:42:01,906 --> 00:42:03,778
stay in those groups So great calls to

874
00:42:03,778 --> 00:42:06,454
action for anybody who's still in the SBC

875
00:42:06,454 --> 00:42:10,402
or who knows anyone who is or is in

876
00:42:10,402 --> 00:42:11,398
taught. denomination or faith based

877
00:42:11,398 --> 00:42:13,606
environment where these are adjacent

878
00:42:13,606 --> 00:42:16,134
concepts happening in your community We do

879
00:42:16,134 --> 00:42:20,022
have choices of where we put our energy

880
00:42:20,022 --> 00:42:22,954
and our leadership and our voice And so I

881
00:42:22,954 --> 00:42:24,394
hope that this has been leaders challenge

882
00:42:24,394 --> 00:42:26,346
to those of you listening today.Thank you

883
00:42:26,346 --> 00:42:28,394
so much for being on for being so

884
00:42:28,394 --> 00:42:30,426
vulnerable and sharing your story It's out

885
00:42:30,426 --> 00:42:32,062
of your story of suffering that you've

886
00:42:32,062 --> 00:42:33,646
become such an advocate for others And we

887
00:42:33,646 --> 00:42:36,490
all appreciate you like listening to our

888
00:42:36,490 --> 00:42:40,526
stories and putting our stories out into

889
00:42:40,526 --> 00:42:44,174
the world And so I hope that as you do

890
00:42:44,174 --> 00:42:47,086
that you continue to find that your voice

891
00:42:47,086 --> 00:42:48,306
continues to flourish and grow Also you

892
00:42:48,306 --> 00:42:50,466
help others flourish and grow.But I do

893
00:42:50,466 --> 00:42:52,526
want you to hang out We're going to ask

894
00:42:52,526 --> 00:42:54,466
you another question in our patreon

895
00:42:54,466 --> 00:42:56,738
community and I'm going to help us unpack

896
00:42:56,738 --> 00:42:58,866
a little bit about what that hempathy can

897
00:42:58,866 --> 00:43:01,654
look like with some of these leaders and

898
00:43:01,654 --> 00:43:04,102
some next steps we could take to help us

899
00:43:04,102 --> 00:43:05,046
really recognize when we're falling for

900
00:43:05,046 --> 00:43:06,930
that hempathy and why it's part of the

901
00:43:06,930 --> 00:43:09,526
system that keeps the abuse going But

902
00:43:09,526 --> 00:43:11,606
thank you so much for being on today I

903
00:43:11,606 --> 00:43:13,010
really appreciate you and the work that

904
00:43:13,010 --> 00:43:15,386
you do at bodies behind the bus in sacred

905
00:43:15,386 --> 00:43:16,986
wilderness Thank you.Well as we sit with

906
00:43:16,986 --> 00:43:18,826
some of the heavy stuff we've talked about

907
00:43:18,826 --> 00:43:20,634
today maybe it's a good time to just take

908
00:43:20,634 --> 00:43:24,986
a deep breath in for the count of four out

909
00:43:24,986 --> 00:43:27,806
for the count of four and maybe do that

910
00:43:27,806 --> 00:43:30,526
part few more times Or maybe you just need

911
00:43:30,526 --> 00:43:32,286
to pause for a second and just be for a

912
00:43:32,286 --> 00:43:33,598
second or two or ten work ten minutes But

913
00:43:33,598 --> 00:43:38,738
at we talked about today is how to make a

914
00:43:38,738 --> 00:43:39,858
difference in spaces where spiritual abuse

915
00:43:39,858 --> 00:43:41,666
continues to happen on a flywheel And it's

916
00:43:41,666 --> 00:43:43,890
not a one off but it's that the people in

917
00:43:43,890 --> 00:43:48,326
power cover up the abuse The bro club

918
00:43:48,326 --> 00:43:51,574
covers for them.People file things like

919
00:43:51,574 --> 00:43:54,246
amicus briefs to a justice not only for

920
00:43:54,246 --> 00:43:55,494
sexual abuse survivors in the SBC but a

921
00:43:55,494 --> 00:43:58,026
for the entire state of Kentucky of any

922
00:43:58,026 --> 00:44:01,098
entity whether it's the police force the

923
00:44:01,098 --> 00:44:04,394
education system any know practice any

924
00:44:04,394 --> 00:44:06,662
entity where they were mandated reporters

925
00:44:06,662 --> 00:44:09,146
of childhood sexual abuse and did not

926
00:44:09,146 --> 00:44:11,262
report it And those things keep a because

927
00:44:11,262 --> 00:44:12,622
they're not getting consequences and

928
00:44:12,622 --> 00:44:14,846
therefore evil continues to thrive And so

929
00:44:14,846 --> 00:44:18,334
when it comes to the church a denomination

930
00:44:18,334 --> 00:44:22,474
a network of churches and the SBC in

931
00:44:22,474 --> 00:44:24,018
particular it's beyond disappointing at

932
00:44:24,018 --> 00:44:26,066
this point It's to the point of actively

933
00:44:26,066 --> 00:44:27,634
It's beyond just not even neutral.It's

934
00:44:27,634 --> 00:44:29,940
actively going in and doing something in

935
00:44:29,940 --> 00:44:36,438
the legal space to stop justice from

936
00:44:36,438 --> 00:44:39,106
happening And when justice happens in

937
00:44:39,106 --> 00:44:41,430
sexual situation like abuse it's not about

938
00:44:41,430 --> 00:44:44,534
getting a bunch of money No matter what

939
00:44:44,534 --> 00:44:49,674
people might say that these girls or women

940
00:44:49,674 --> 00:44:52,346
are greedy and they're out for the money

941
00:44:52,346 --> 00:44:56,422
very few people end up getting wealthy off

942
00:44:56,422 --> 00:44:59,194
of a situation like this because lawyers

943
00:44:59,194 --> 00:45:02,714
get their fee and all this kind of thing

944
00:45:02,714 --> 00:45:05,806
Women who speak out and girls who speak

945
00:45:05,806 --> 00:45:08,894
out and even men and boys who speak out

946
00:45:08,894 --> 00:45:11,950
about their own abuse and are seeking

947
00:45:11,950 --> 00:45:14,478
justice in the legal system whether it's

948
00:45:14,478 --> 00:45:16,334
against about church or denomination or

949
00:45:16,334 --> 00:45:17,954
anything else or the police force are

950
00:45:17,954 --> 00:45:20,386
doing so very often because they are

951
00:45:20,386 --> 00:45:22,066
haunted by the fact that if they don't do

952
00:45:22,066 --> 00:45:24,146
something legally to stop this it will

953
00:45:24,146 --> 00:45:26,206
happen again to someone else and they

954
00:45:26,206 --> 00:45:28,434
don't want someone else to live through

955
00:45:28,434 --> 00:45:30,374
what they've had to barely survive through

956
00:45:30,374 --> 00:45:32,454
and that they are victim survivors of And

957
00:45:32,454 --> 00:45:34,886
so for about church and abuse denomination

958
00:45:34,886 --> 00:45:37,378
to sort of pass the buck or even in this a

959
00:45:37,378 --> 00:45:39,606
actively be keeping an amicus brief in

960
00:45:39,606 --> 00:45:43,882
place I don't are what the excuses are

961
00:45:43,882 --> 00:45:45,626
whether someone was busy or whatever but

962
00:45:45,626 --> 00:45:47,962
the leaders who have the power to make the

963
00:45:47,962 --> 00:45:49,322
change there really are no excuses.And

964
00:45:49,322 --> 00:45:50,826
it's time to stop with the hempathy

965
00:45:50,826 --> 00:45:51,966
because that's something we discussed in

966
00:45:51,966 --> 00:45:55,166
the previous episode with Johnna here and

967
00:45:55,166 --> 00:45:58,874
it's time to start looking at the facts a

968
00:45:58,874 --> 00:46:01,278
working together for justice If there's

969
00:46:01,278 --> 00:46:04,982
any verse that I could point us to today

970
00:46:04,982 --> 00:46:09,090
we need to do justice love mercy and walk

971
00:46:09,090 --> 00:46:11,554
humbly with God And do justice requires us

972
00:46:11,554 --> 00:46:13,906
being active together And so Johnna is

973
00:46:13,906 --> 00:46:15,378
calling as one option that could be

974
00:46:15,378 --> 00:46:17,646
something you want to consider today This

975
00:46:17,646 --> 00:46:21,618
feels a little bit like an altar call

976
00:46:21,618 --> 00:46:22,914
that's this point discussed just the

977
00:46:22,914 --> 00:46:25,254
defund the SBC movement if you feel.And

978
00:46:25,254 --> 00:46:27,334
that could look looking very specific ways

979
00:46:27,334 --> 00:46:30,426
like you just saying I'm not going to fund

980
00:46:30,426 --> 00:46:33,306
the liars related to thwarting abuse for

981
00:46:33,306 --> 00:46:35,514
survivors of abuse that you want your

982
00:46:35,514 --> 00:46:36,954
funding to your offerings to be

983
00:46:36,954 --> 00:46:39,418
specifically given to specific things and

984
00:46:39,418 --> 00:46:43,706
you want there to be more transparency And

985
00:46:43,706 --> 00:46:46,046
you want to talk to you pastor or you want

986
00:46:46,046 --> 00:46:47,822
to say I'm not going to fund If the at

987
00:46:47,822 --> 00:46:51,034
program funds are going to go toward

988
00:46:51,034 --> 00:46:53,714
largely lawyer fees for this thing you

989
00:46:53,714 --> 00:46:56,274
want to know the numbers like show me the

990
00:46:56,274 --> 00:46:59,262
numbers So asking for that transparency of

991
00:46:59,262 --> 00:47:03,362
where the money goes before you're giving

992
00:47:03,362 --> 00:47:06,030
and you're offering is want very

993
00:47:06,030 --> 00:47:07,554
reasonable thing And it's responsible.It's

994
00:47:07,554 --> 00:47:10,066
be specifically good steward of the money

995
00:47:10,066 --> 00:47:12,518
God has blessed us with that we work hard

996
00:47:12,518 --> 00:47:14,358
for of course in your jobs But when we

997
00:47:14,358 --> 00:47:16,630
give whether it's a tithe the 10 or the we

998
00:47:16,630 --> 00:47:20,034
go above and beyond or whether we're in

999
00:47:20,034 --> 00:47:21,978
lawyer financial place where we can't get

1000
00:47:21,978 --> 00:47:23,354
that much whatever you're giving and

1001
00:47:23,354 --> 00:47:25,194
you're offering to your church especially

1002
00:47:25,194 --> 00:47:27,558
if you're listening to this in the SBC

1003
00:47:27,558 --> 00:47:29,974
right now I just want you to consider

1004
00:47:29,974 --> 00:47:32,986
asking where the money goes and expecting

1005
00:47:32,986 --> 00:47:35,822
a about where it goes And if you are or

1006
00:47:35,822 --> 00:47:37,694
not comfortable for that money to go

1007
00:47:37,694 --> 00:47:40,206
toward lawyers that are stopping that are

1008
00:47:40,206 --> 00:47:42,206
defending whether SPC with sort of these

1009
00:47:42,206 --> 00:47:43,354
image management things that happen to

1010
00:47:43,354 --> 00:47:44,926
protect men in powerful positions in their

1011
00:47:44,926 --> 00:47:46,002
jobs or entities that are long standing

1012
00:47:46,002 --> 00:47:47,426
whatever the expense of children little

1013
00:47:47,426 --> 00:47:49,906
girls who are getting abused by a to in a

1014
00:47:49,906 --> 00:47:53,186
church that are just trying to not only

1015
00:47:53,186 --> 00:47:56,486
say that person deserves justice this

1016
00:47:56,486 --> 00:48:00,534
child who is now grown and able to speak

1017
00:48:00,534 --> 00:48:02,966
for themselves but also that that would

1018
00:48:02,966 --> 00:48:06,498
happen to no one else Because we are

1019
00:48:06,498 --> 00:48:09,638
showing that we have a no tolerance policy

1020
00:48:09,638 --> 00:48:13,002
of abuse in our churches And this is just

1021
00:48:13,002 --> 00:48:14,566
what we're asking you to consider.And

1022
00:48:14,566 --> 00:48:16,694
Johnna is specifically asking people to

1023
00:48:16,694 --> 00:48:18,906
consider at that looks like to be involved

1024
00:48:18,906 --> 00:48:20,378
in the defund the SBC movement And then

1025
00:48:20,378 --> 00:48:23,102
there are also other ways to get know By

1026
00:48:23,102 --> 00:48:27,070
sending letters emails making phone calls

1027
00:48:27,070 --> 00:48:28,574
asking to speak with leaders in this

1028
00:48:28,574 --> 00:48:30,334
denomination who are making policies And

1029
00:48:30,334 --> 00:48:32,046
then just to read up and listen to the

1030
00:48:32,046 --> 00:48:33,518
abuse survivors themselves and to center

1031
00:48:33,518 --> 00:48:35,738
them I would say is really important

1032
00:48:35,738 --> 00:48:37,758
Follow people on Twitter or on their

1033
00:48:37,758 --> 00:48:39,634
social media or people that are writing

1034
00:48:39,634 --> 00:48:43,122
articles in baptist press and different

1035
00:48:43,122 --> 00:48:44,338
things about their own abuse and follow

1036
00:48:44,338 --> 00:48:46,422
the abuse survivors and the stories that

1037
00:48:46,422 --> 00:48:47,414
they're sharing themselves.So you're going

1038
00:48:47,414 --> 00:48:51,714
straight to the original firsthand source

1039
00:48:51,714 --> 00:48:55,494
the original source to find out what

1040
00:48:55,494 --> 00:48:59,030
happened And I in that when you hear the

1041
00:48:59,030 --> 00:49:01,530
stories this is why Johnna and I believe

1042
00:49:01,530 --> 00:49:03,418
so strongly that stories matter Then

1043
00:49:03,418 --> 00:49:04,906
you'll understand why this matters that

1044
00:49:04,906 --> 00:49:08,266
you wouldn't want this to happen to anyone

1045
00:49:08,266 --> 00:49:09,898
else So I encourage you to follow the

1046
00:49:09,898 --> 00:49:12,362
abuse survivors in the SBC that are out

1047
00:49:12,362 --> 00:49:14,062
there sharing their stories In the

1048
00:49:14,062 --> 00:49:17,182
meantime I know many of you are end of the

1049
00:49:17,182 --> 00:49:18,346
year making New Year's

1050
00:49:18,346 --> 00:49:21,514
resolutions.Wouldn't it be great to have a

1051
00:49:21,514 --> 00:49:23,646
New Year's resolution that you were going

1052
00:49:23,646 --> 00:49:25,274
to actually do justice this next year love

1053
00:49:25,274 --> 00:49:26,866
mercy and walk humbly with God and make

1054
00:49:26,866 --> 00:49:29,086
goals around those things and doing

1055
00:49:29,086 --> 00:49:31,426
justice I just think we could all do more

1056
00:49:31,426 --> 00:49:32,926
And it's not like anyone guilt trip but

1057
00:49:32,926 --> 00:49:35,378
it's like what's one thing you could do

1058
00:49:35,378 --> 00:49:37,182
next year to kind of move the needle

1059
00:49:37,182 --> 00:49:39,186
forward in your circle of influence

1060
00:49:39,186 --> 00:49:41,206
doesn't have to be big or small but just

1061
00:49:41,206 --> 00:49:43,286
to be involved to just not be passive

1062
00:49:43,286 --> 00:49:44,646
about it It's not something that only

1063
00:49:44,646 --> 00:49:46,738
church leaders and only denomination

1064
00:49:46,738 --> 00:49:49,734
leaders are involved in Doing justice is

1065
00:49:49,734 --> 00:49:52,282
part of what it means to follow God.And if

1066
00:49:52,282 --> 00:49:55,226
you consider yourself a follower of God I

1067
00:49:55,226 --> 00:49:58,346
would just invite you to consider what

1068
00:49:58,346 --> 00:50:00,634
that looks like for you to do justice and

1069
00:50:00,634 --> 00:50:02,046
your circle of influence and in your

1070
00:50:02,046 --> 00:50:03,838
spaces that you call your home your

1071
00:50:03,838 --> 00:50:06,238
denominational home your church home And

1072
00:50:06,238 --> 00:50:09,034
if you'd like to talk more about that or

1073
00:50:09,034 --> 00:50:15,774
if you want to share your ideas and tips

1074
00:50:15,774 --> 00:50:18,718
of what you're doing we are going to be

1075
00:50:18,718 --> 00:50:20,706
going are little bit deeper with Johnnana

1076
00:50:20,706 --> 00:50:22,338
in a Patreon episode So if you have not

1077
00:50:22,338 --> 00:50:24,126
joined our difference maker community

1078
00:50:24,126 --> 00:50:26,338
that's where we go a little bit deeper

1079
00:50:26,338 --> 00:50:27,966
with each of our guests So we have another

1080
00:50:27,966 --> 00:50:30,226
exclusive interview with Johnnana where we

1081
00:50:30,226 --> 00:50:33,334
go more in depth with her about some of

1082
00:50:33,334 --> 00:50:35,510
the things she's experienced and what

1083
00:50:35,510 --> 00:50:37,014
she's working on with advocacy So please

1084
00:50:37,014 --> 00:50:37,958
join us there at ww dot patreon.com

1085
00:50:37,958 --> 00:50:38,578
aworldofdifference.That's ww dot

1086
00:50:38,578 --> 00:50:39,426
patreon.com aworldofdifference and join us

1087
00:50:39,426 --> 00:50:43,306
there You can join for as little as 5 a

1088
00:50:43,306 --> 00:50:45,174
month and you'll get exclusive episodes

1089
00:50:45,174 --> 00:50:47,066
from many different guests There's have

1090
00:50:47,066 --> 00:50:48,986
ton of content in there exclusively for

1091
00:50:48,986 --> 00:50:50,346
you When you show up You could join for

1092
00:50:50,346 --> 00:50:52,978
just one month and see how you like it or

1093
00:50:52,978 --> 00:50:55,694
you can join for longer because it's hard

1094
00:50:55,694 --> 00:50:57,198
to watch all of the content in one

1095
00:50:57,198 --> 00:51:00,142
month.It's what lot of stuff and we keep

1096
00:51:00,142 --> 00:51:05,434
adding more with each guest So we'd love

1097
00:51:05,434 --> 00:51:11,474
to have you show up there and have

1098
00:51:11,474 --> 00:51:12,386
conversations with us about how you're

1099
00:51:12,386 --> 00:51:15,118
making a difference and we'd love for

1100
00:51:15,118 --> 00:51:18,418
you'll to reach out about what kind of a

1101
00:51:18,418 --> 00:51:20,306
difference you're hoping to make in the

1102
00:51:20,306 --> 00:51:21,638
next year in you spaces where you live and

1103
00:51:21,638 --> 00:51:23,494
work and play and have influence of any

1104
00:51:23,494 --> 00:51:25,506
kind And whether you are a follower of God

1105
00:51:25,506 --> 00:51:26,358
and you express that through Christianity

1106
00:51:26,358 --> 00:51:27,926
or Judaism or Islam you consider yourself

1107
00:51:27,926 --> 00:51:29,654
hindu or buddhist or an atheist you are

1108
00:51:29,654 --> 00:51:31,606
welcome to join us in that space and add

1109
00:51:31,606 --> 00:51:32,654
your perspective as well even

1110
00:51:32,654 --> 00:51:33,498
conversations this very christian

1111
00:51:33,498 --> 00:51:35,466
conversation around advocacy a spiritual

1112
00:51:35,466 --> 00:51:36,794
abuse in the SBC Because just all the

1113
00:51:36,794 --> 00:51:38,874
brains we could get a the table on this

1114
00:51:38,874 --> 00:51:41,266
one and all the perspectives really matter

1115
00:51:41,266 --> 00:51:42,862
and they really make and difference And

1116
00:51:42,862 --> 00:51:47,102
they help us see because we know that

1117
00:51:47,102 --> 00:51:49,470
spiritual abuse happens in all different

1118
00:51:49,470 --> 00:51:51,210
religious spaces.And even from those of

1119
00:51:51,210 --> 00:51:54,610
you who are atheists we would love

1120
00:51:54,610 --> 00:51:56,718
yourself perspective on what that looks

1121
00:51:56,718 --> 00:51:59,122
like from your point of view us all of

1122
00:51:59,122 --> 00:52:01,474
your points of view are places where I

1123
00:52:01,474 --> 00:52:05,406
learn and spaces where I learn And I

1124
00:52:05,406 --> 00:52:08,418
really enjoy in you here So as we end out

1125
00:52:08,418 --> 00:52:10,086
this year I just want to say thank you to

1126
00:52:10,086 --> 00:52:11,654
all the listeners who've been so

1127
00:52:11,654 --> 00:52:12,726
incredible and making such a difference

1128
00:52:12,726 --> 00:52:15,186
around the world So I hope you take some

1129
00:52:15,186 --> 00:52:19,094
space to just kind of think through this

1130
00:52:19,094 --> 00:52:21,046
year What do you want to stop What do you

1131
00:52:21,046 --> 00:52:23,574
want to start What do you want to keep

1132
00:52:23,574 --> 00:52:25,206
doing And I'd love to hear more about that

1133
00:52:25,206 --> 00:52:27,286
So find me on Twitter at Loriadbr and let

1134
00:52:27,286 --> 00:52:29,766
me know Or if you want to find me on

1135
00:52:29,766 --> 00:52:30,926
threads at Lori Adams Brown.Yeah just

1136
00:52:30,926 --> 00:52:32,046
reach out to me there I'd love to hear

1137
00:52:32,046 --> 00:52:35,246
kind of what you're doing in the end of

1138
00:52:35,246 --> 00:52:36,926
the a difference taking time to reflect if

1139
00:52:36,926 --> 00:52:38,078
you're taking take retreat how that looks

1140
00:52:38,078 --> 00:52:39,918
for you And in the meantime take care of

1141
00:52:39,918 --> 00:52:40,846
yourself and please keep making a

1142
00:52:40,846 --> 00:52:41,998
difference wherever you are close

1143
00:52:41,998 --> 00:52:43,294
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1144
00:52:43,294 --> 00:52:44,238
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1145
00:52:44,238 --> 00:52:44,974
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1146
00:52:44,974 --> 00:52:45,726
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1147
00:52:45,726 --> 00:52:47,358
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1148
00:52:47,358 --> 00:52:47,966
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1149
00:52:47,966 --> 00:52:48,318
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1150
00:52:48,318 --> 00:52:49,066
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1151
00:52:49,066 --> 00:52:50,666
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1152
00:52:50,666 --> 00:52:51,886
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1153
00:52:51,886 --> 00:52:52,458
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1154
00:52:52,458 --> 00:52:52,958
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1155
00:52:52,958 --> 00:52:53,902
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1156
00:52:53,902 --> 00:52:54,558
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1157
00:52:54,558 --> 00:52:55,334
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1158
00:52:55,334 --> 00:52:56,406
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1159
00:52:56,406 --> 00:52:57,618
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1160
00:52:57,618 --> 00:52:58,566
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1161
00:52:58,566 --> 00:52:59,558
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1162
00:52:59,558 --> 00:53:01,286
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1163
00:53:01,286 --> 00:53:03,174
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1164
00:53:03,174 --> 00:53:04,434
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