A podcast for those who are different and want to make a difference.
Nov. 8, 2023

Limor Bergman Gross: Crushing Career Stereotypes and Women in Tech Leadership

Limor Bergman Gross: Crushing Career Stereotypes and Women in Tech Leadership

Does this sound familiar? Have you been told that in order to advance in your tech leadership career, you need to simply work harder and prove yourself? But despite your efforts, you still feel like you're hitting a glass ceiling, struggling to break through and achieve the success you deserve. If this resonates with you, it's time to break free from the ineffective action of solely relying on hard work and discover the strategies and insights that will truly propel your career forward. Stop the frustration and unlock the keys to success as a woman in tech leadership.


My special guest is Limor Bergman Gross


Limor Bergman Gross is a highly accomplished professional in the tech industry, boasting over 20 years of experience as an engineer, manager, and director of engineering and Tech IT. Throughout her career, she has worked in both Israel and the United States, gaining valuable insights into the tech landscapes of both countries. In addition to her technical expertise, Limor has developed a deep passion for mentoring and supporting women in tech. Over the past five years, she has dedicated her time and expertise to empowering women and helping them navigate their careers in the male-dominated tech industry. With her extensive background in tech leadership and her own experiences as a working mom, Limor brings a unique perspective to her mentoring and coaching approach. Her mission is clear: to help more women break through barriers and reach top leadership positions in the tech world. Limor Bergman Gross is a true advocate for women in tech leadership, offering valuable guidance and support to help them achieve their professional goals.

Surround yourselves with good, supportive people. Stick to what you know and be moldable. You can't control the curveballs life throws at you, but you can control how you respond. - Lemor Bergman Gross


In this episode, you will be able to:

  • Enhance your leadership skills and thrive in tech: Discover strategies for success as a woman in tech leadership.
  • Stand out in the job market with a compelling LinkedIn profile: Learn how to build a strong personal brand and attract opportunities.
  • Thrive in a remote work environment and lead global teams: Overcome challenges and excel in virtual collaboration.
  • Network like a pro as an introvert: Unlock strategies to confidently connect with others and grow your professional network.
  • Navigate difficult conversations and address performance issues: Develop the skills to handle tough situations with confidence and empathy.


Mastering tech leadership as a woman involves overcoming internal and external obstacles. Internal challenges can be self-doubt and lack of confidence, while externally, women may face biases and stereotypes. It's crucial for women to envision themselves in leadership roles, believe in their unique abilities, and strive for resilience.

The resources mentioned in this episode are:

  • Visit Limor Bergman Gross's website: Explore Limor's website to learn more about her work in mentoring women in tech and her strategies for career development. The website may provide additional resources and information for women looking to advance in their careers.
  • Sign up for Limor's mentoring program: If you're a woman in tech looking for guidance and support in advancing your career, consider signing up for Limor's mentoring program. This program may provide personalized advice, coaching, and support to help you reach your goals.
  • Attend Limor's workshops and webinars: Limor may offer workshops and webinars on topics related to career development in the tech industry. Check her website or social media channels for upcoming events that you can attend to gain valuable insights and strategies for advancing your career.
  • Share this podcast episode with others: If you found this podcast episode valuable, share it with your colleagues, friends, or anyone else who could benefit
  • Connect with Limor on social media: Follow Limor on social media platforms such as LinkedIn, Twitter, or Facebook to stay updated on her latest articles, insights, and resources for women in tech. Engage with her content and join the conversation to connect with other like-minded professionals.

Follow Limor at:

https://limorbergman.com/

https://www.linkedin.com/in/limorbergman/

https://www.facebook.com/limorbe

https://www.instagram.com/limorbergman

https://twitter.com/limor_bergman

https://www.youtube.com/c/LimorBergman



The key moments in this episode are:

00:00:00 - Introduction


00:02:31 - Lemore's Career Journey


00:07:31 - Overcoming Bias and Challenges


00:11:00 - Balancing Family and Career


00:11:25 - Obstacles to Women in the C-suite


00:16:15 - Job Search Strategy


00:17:41 - Maintaining a Positive Mindset


00:18:55 - Navigating Job Loss


00:21:07 - Importance of Remote Work for Women


00:25:39 - Building Relationships with Remote Global Teams


00:28:01 - Delegating Effectively


00:32:25 - Stepping Out of Your Comfort Zone


00:34:09 - Having Difficult Conversations


00:37:59 - The Importance of Listening


00:39:40 - The Power of Role Models


00:42:45 - Living in Israel


Timestamped summary of this episode:

00:00:00 - Introduction

The host introduces the guest, Limor Bergman Gross, who has spent over 20 years working in tech and is now dedicated to mentoring women in the industry and helping them reach the C-suite.


00:02:31 - Lemore's Career Journey

Limor talks about her career journey as a software engineer, her move to the US, and her decision to focus on mentoring and supporting women in tech.


00:07:31 - Overcoming Bias and Challenges

Limor discusses the performance bias and stereotypes she faced as a woman in tech, both in Israel and the US. She emphasizes the importance of rising above biases and making choices that empower oneself.


00:11:00 - Balancing Family and Career

Limor shares her experience of navigating the challenges of expanding her family while pursuing her career. She highlights the need for women to consider the impact of family decisions on their career progression.


00:11:25 - Obstacles to Women in the C-suite

Limor identifies internal obstacles, such as self-doubt and lack of role models, as well as external obstacles, such as biases in the workplace, that prevent women from reaching the C-suite. She emphasizes the importance of building confidence and creating a sense of belonging.


00:16:15 - Job Search Strategy

Look at job descriptions to understand what employers are looking for and highlight your skills that align with their needs. Invest in building your LinkedIn profile and network for long-term success.


00:17:41 - Maintaining a Positive Mindset

Even during difficult times, there are always opportunities out there. Adopt a mindset of abundance and surround yourself with supportive people. Volunteering and mentoring can boost confidence and help identify valuable skills.


00:18:55 - Navigating Job Loss

Losing a job can be a grief process, but it's important to remember that it's okay to grieve. Surround yourself with supportive people and avoid negative influences. Volunteering and mentoring can build confidence and provide opportunities for networking.


00:21:07 - Importance of Remote Work for Women

Remote work is essential for women who often juggle unpaid labor at home. Companies should focus on improving the onboarding process for remote employees, being deliberate in setting expectations, and ensuring regular check-ins to build trust and relationships.


00:25:39 - Building Relationships with Remote Global Teams

Understanding cultural differences is key when working with remote teams from different cultures. Be curious and ask questions to understand their motivations, work preferences, and goals. Building trust requires open communication and avoiding assumptions.


00:28:01 - Delegating Effectively

Delegating is an acquired skill. Assess the impact of your tasks and delegate those that can be


00:32:25 - Stepping Out of Your Comfort Zone

Conferences and events can be challenging for introverts, but it's important to push yourself to attend and network. Find topics you feel comfortable discussing and look for opportunities to collaborate with others who share your passions.


00:34:09 - Having Difficult Conversations

When faced with performance issues in your team, stick to facts and avoid being emotional or opinionated. Start by sharing observations and then give the other person space to respond. Be open-minded and work together to set clear expectations and find solutions.


00:37:59 - The Importance of Listening

Good leadership involves deep listening, where you listen to understand rather than just hearing. Using data and observations, have a dialogue with your team member to understand their perspective and find solutions together.


00:39:40 - The Power of Role Models

Having role models who embody the qualities you admire can inspire and motivate you to become a better leader. It's especially important for women to see female role models in leadership positions to break the glass ceiling.


00:42:45 - Living in Israel

Leymore shares her perspective on living in Israel during times of conflict and offers insights on how we can be helpful. She emphasizes the importance of understanding the situation and being compassionate towards those affected by the conflict.


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A World of Difference Podcast

Transcript
1 00:00:00,000 --> 00:00:04,458 You welcome to the A World of Difference 2 00:00:04,458 --> 00:00:06,766 podcast. I'm Lori Adams Brown, and this is 3 00:00:06,766 --> 00:00:08,606 a podcast for those who are different and 4 00:00:08,606 --> 00:00:12,382 want to make a difference. Today on the 5 00:00:12,382 --> 00:00:14,666 show, we have someone coming to us 6 00:00:14,666 --> 00:00:17,530 straight from Israel. Her name is Lemore 7 00:00:17,530 --> 00:00:20,718 Bergman Gross. And for over 20 years, she 8 00:00:20,718 --> 00:00:23,658 worked as an engineer, manager and 9 00:00:23,658 --> 00:00:26,342 director of engineering and Tech IT. Now. 10 00:00:26,342 --> 00:00:29,446 She spent the past five years to dedicate 11 00:00:29,446 --> 00:00:32,550 her life to mentoring women in tech. And 12 00:00:32,550 --> 00:00:35,382 she has a strong passion around helping 13 00:00:35,382 --> 00:00:37,910 women to get to the C suite. She has a lot 14 00:00:37,910 --> 00:00:41,522 of tools and strategies and tips for 15 00:00:41,522 --> 00:00:43,146 people based on her experience of working 16 00:00:43,146 --> 00:00:45,946 in tech and working up the career ladder, 17 00:00:45,946 --> 00:00:48,906 as well as being a mom during that time. 18 00:00:48,906 --> 00:00:50,458 And so we're going to talk today about 19 00:00:50,458 --> 00:00:53,454 what it was like to work in tech and how 20 00:00:53,454 --> 00:00:57,162 she can help women to rise in their 21 00:00:57,162 --> 00:00:59,806 careers if that's what they desire to do. 22 00:00:59,806 --> 00:01:03,310 She has a lot of great information and 23 00:01:03,310 --> 00:01:05,534 work around just career development, 24 00:01:05,534 --> 00:01:06,914 specifically as it relates to the tech 25 00:01:06,914 --> 00:01:09,214 world. But a lot of her strategies are 26 00:01:09,214 --> 00:01:11,998 helpful in all types of careers. And also, 27 00:01:11,998 --> 00:01:15,442 it's a really helpful conversation to have 28 00:01:15,442 --> 00:01:16,706 with someone like this because I know 29 00:01:16,706 --> 00:01:18,546 there are many male allies that listen to 30 00:01:18,546 --> 00:01:21,046 this podcast. So if you're a manager or 31 00:01:21,046 --> 00:01:23,046 you work in a faith based space or you 32 00:01:23,046 --> 00:01:24,694 work in a nonprofit, you're going to get 33 00:01:24,694 --> 00:01:27,222 something out of this podcast today. So, 34 00:01:27,222 --> 00:01:29,514 yeah, happy to introduce you if you've not 35 00:01:29,514 --> 00:01:31,754 yet heard of her. So welcome to the show 36 00:01:31,754 --> 00:01:40,006 Today, Lemore Bergman Griff hello, 37 00:01:40,006 --> 00:01:42,254 Leymore. And thanks for coming onto the 38 00:01:42,254 --> 00:01:45,406 show today all the way from Israel. How 39 00:01:45,406 --> 00:01:49,438 are you doing today, Leymore hi, Lori. 40 00:01:49,438 --> 00:01:51,774 Thank you so much for having me. I'm doing 41 00:01:51,774 --> 00:01:54,334 great. It's a wonderful evening here. Yes, 42 00:01:54,334 --> 00:01:56,710 well, it's an early morning for me, and 43 00:01:56,710 --> 00:01:58,402 I'm glad that we got our time zones to 44 00:01:58,402 --> 00:02:00,786 connect and we could make this time work 45 00:02:00,786 --> 00:02:03,186 and really excited to get to know you a 46 00:02:03,186 --> 00:02:05,794 little bit better and allow you to bring 47 00:02:05,794 --> 00:02:07,906 your differences to the table today to 48 00:02:07,906 --> 00:02:09,654 make a difference in our lives. Those of 49 00:02:09,654 --> 00:02:12,338 us listening love to learn, and we love 50 00:02:12,338 --> 00:02:13,782 bringing on thought leaders, subject 51 00:02:13,782 --> 00:02:16,146 matter experts, and people who bring their 52 00:02:16,146 --> 00:02:18,154 differences to the table to help us grow. 53 00:02:18,154 --> 00:02:20,234 And so today, I'd love for you just to 54 00:02:20,234 --> 00:02:23,846 start off with the introduction of who is 55 00:02:23,846 --> 00:02:26,534 Lemore Bergman growth and how would you 56 00:02:26,534 --> 00:02:33,018 describe yourself to our audience? So I'll 57 00:02:33,018 --> 00:02:34,686 give you kind of a mission statement, I 58 00:02:34,686 --> 00:02:37,086 think, that will describe me the most. I'm 59 00:02:37,086 --> 00:02:40,394 on a mission to bring more women to the C 60 00:02:40,394 --> 00:02:43,934 suite in tech. I do that by mentoring, 61 00:02:43,934 --> 00:02:46,530 coaching, and supporting women in 62 00:02:46,530 --> 00:02:50,482 different roles. And I bring all my 63 00:02:50,482 --> 00:02:53,442 experience, all my years of experience in 64 00:02:53,442 --> 00:02:55,886 tech. I mean, I was an engineer, a 65 00:02:55,886 --> 00:02:58,062 software engineer, and grew into 66 00:02:58,062 --> 00:03:00,998 leadership roles both here in Israel and 67 00:03:00,998 --> 00:03:04,066 in the US. So that's kind of what I do. 68 00:03:04,066 --> 00:03:05,478 I'm trying to make my own difference in 69 00:03:05,478 --> 00:03:06,998 the world. Absolutely. That's why you're 70 00:03:06,998 --> 00:03:10,074 on the show today. And I love that. And we 71 00:03:10,074 --> 00:03:12,038 definitely need more female 72 00:03:12,038 --> 00:03:14,566 representation. And there are so many 73 00:03:14,566 --> 00:03:18,394 factors that are out of women's control. 74 00:03:18,394 --> 00:03:20,506 But the things we can control are what we 75 00:03:20,506 --> 00:03:22,362 also want to talk about today, as well as 76 00:03:22,362 --> 00:03:24,586 maybe give some tips to our male allies 77 00:03:24,586 --> 00:03:26,350 that want to be a part of helping make a 78 00:03:26,350 --> 00:03:29,454 difference, too. And so as we dig into 79 00:03:29,454 --> 00:03:31,022 this a little bit, tell us a little bit 80 00:03:31,022 --> 00:03:32,830 about your career journey. You worked in 81 00:03:32,830 --> 00:03:34,478 tech, you've lived in the US for a period 82 00:03:34,478 --> 00:03:36,650 of time. You were in the Denver area. You 83 00:03:36,650 --> 00:03:39,186 were also in Plano, in Texas for a while, 84 00:03:39,186 --> 00:03:41,450 and now you're back in Israel. Tell us a 85 00:03:41,450 --> 00:03:43,474 little bit about your career and why you 86 00:03:43,474 --> 00:03:48,950 came to this mission statement. Sure. So 87 00:03:48,950 --> 00:03:51,142 started my career as a software engineer, 88 00:03:51,142 --> 00:03:55,510 so I went into computer science in 89 00:03:55,510 --> 00:03:57,674 university because I thought that would 90 00:03:57,674 --> 00:04:02,554 make sense given my STem background and 91 00:04:02,554 --> 00:04:05,722 started my career in Israel. At some 92 00:04:05,722 --> 00:04:08,490 point, realized I wanted to become a 93 00:04:08,490 --> 00:04:13,774 manager. I have four children, and back 94 00:04:13,774 --> 00:04:15,566 then, when I wanted to become a manager, I 95 00:04:15,566 --> 00:04:18,510 was actually pregnant with my second child 96 00:04:18,510 --> 00:04:21,486 and nominated myself to a manager position 97 00:04:21,486 --> 00:04:24,100 and basically got my first manager 98 00:04:24,100 --> 00:04:27,218 position when I got back from maternity 99 00:04:27,218 --> 00:04:30,306 leave of my second son. So my big changes 100 00:04:30,306 --> 00:04:33,474 in my career actually happened related to 101 00:04:33,474 --> 00:04:37,794 new kids. So my first engineering 102 00:04:37,794 --> 00:04:42,182 management position was after I had a 103 00:04:42,182 --> 00:04:46,614 second child, and our move to the US was 104 00:04:46,614 --> 00:04:49,160 after I delivered my twins. So I have four 105 00:04:49,160 --> 00:04:52,614 kids. The young ones are twins, and when 106 00:04:52,614 --> 00:04:55,594 they're babies, we move the entire family, 107 00:04:55,594 --> 00:04:58,614 all the six of us, to the US, to Denver, 108 00:04:58,614 --> 00:05:03,486 Colorado in the winter of 2010. It was 109 00:05:03,486 --> 00:05:06,334 kind of driven by my husband. His employer 110 00:05:06,334 --> 00:05:09,422 really wanted him to move. And we realized 111 00:05:09,422 --> 00:05:11,422 that it's an opportunity to do something 112 00:05:11,422 --> 00:05:13,374 else. I mean, I don't know if I was crazy 113 00:05:13,374 --> 00:05:17,794 or what, but I decided that it's an 114 00:05:17,794 --> 00:05:20,418 opportunity and I had to figure out if I 115 00:05:20,418 --> 00:05:22,754 want to take it or not. And I decided to 116 00:05:22,754 --> 00:05:25,518 take this opportunity despite all the 117 00:05:25,518 --> 00:05:27,686 difficulties and the unknowns. So moving 118 00:05:27,686 --> 00:05:30,630 to the US had to reinvent myself, 119 00:05:30,630 --> 00:05:32,406 basically. I mean, I continued my career, 120 00:05:32,406 --> 00:05:35,090 but it wasn't so easy because I was on a 121 00:05:35,090 --> 00:05:37,506 visa that employers, many employers, 122 00:05:37,506 --> 00:05:40,458 didn't know what to do with it, and 123 00:05:40,458 --> 00:05:43,418 obviously what was a new country for me. 124 00:05:43,418 --> 00:05:46,186 And, yeah, and I continue on that journey 125 00:05:46,186 --> 00:05:50,622 in the US, and we moved also in Denver, 126 00:05:50,622 --> 00:05:54,254 and we moved to Texas. And along the way, 127 00:05:54,254 --> 00:05:56,654 I found out several things. I found out 128 00:05:56,654 --> 00:06:00,906 that I'm driven by supporting other 129 00:06:00,906 --> 00:06:03,354 managers. So I started mentoring as a 130 00:06:03,354 --> 00:06:05,718 volunteer at the beginning of 2017. I 131 00:06:05,718 --> 00:06:07,934 loved it. I loved it. I got a lot of 132 00:06:07,934 --> 00:06:10,494 positive feedback that also with my 133 00:06:10,494 --> 00:06:12,354 growing passion to having more women, I 134 00:06:12,354 --> 00:06:15,154 mean, as I grew in my leadership roles, I 135 00:06:15,154 --> 00:06:18,674 saw fewer and fewer women there and fewer 136 00:06:18,674 --> 00:06:20,486 role models. A lot of times I didn't have 137 00:06:20,486 --> 00:06:23,382 any role models to look up to. Maybe 138 00:06:23,382 --> 00:06:26,738 someone from HR, but like no executive 139 00:06:26,738 --> 00:06:33,210 female at realized, I really want to 140 00:06:33,210 --> 00:06:36,154 change that. And when we decided to move 141 00:06:36,154 --> 00:06:38,794 back to Israel, I decided that was my 142 00:06:38,794 --> 00:06:41,114 opportunity because we made a huge change. 143 00:06:41,114 --> 00:06:44,302 As it is, we moved back. I had to leave my 144 00:06:44,302 --> 00:06:47,886 job. I said, okay, that's my sign, that's 145 00:06:47,886 --> 00:06:50,254 my cue that I have to make this change. 146 00:06:50,254 --> 00:06:54,366 Love your story. I know are going to 147 00:06:54,366 --> 00:06:55,778 resonate with our audience because we have 148 00:06:55,778 --> 00:06:59,566 a lot of people who've moved abroad and 149 00:06:59,566 --> 00:07:01,826 moved multiple times to multiple countries 150 00:07:01,826 --> 00:07:04,802 for various reasons, for being expats, for 151 00:07:04,802 --> 00:07:08,658 just immigration, and also because of 152 00:07:08,658 --> 00:07:10,770 unrest in certain places where that was a 153 00:07:10,770 --> 00:07:14,514 forced situation as well. And I have 154 00:07:14,514 --> 00:07:16,626 twins, by the wAy, and I also moved. My 155 00:07:16,626 --> 00:07:21,322 twins were born in 2007, and we moved in 156 00:07:21,322 --> 00:07:25,814 2009 from Indonesia to Singapore for a 157 00:07:25,814 --> 00:07:27,606 career move as well. And so I can somewhat 158 00:07:27,606 --> 00:07:29,740 relate to, and they're my youngest, too. 159 00:07:29,740 --> 00:07:33,738 So it is challenging. When I think about 160 00:07:33,738 --> 00:07:35,546 women getting to the C suite. I know that 161 00:07:35,546 --> 00:07:38,222 you've probably faced this, too. There's 162 00:07:38,222 --> 00:07:42,970 so much performance, so much, so many 163 00:07:42,970 --> 00:07:45,106 stereotypes. I don't know if you face that 164 00:07:45,106 --> 00:07:47,346 in the US or what your perspective was. 165 00:07:47,346 --> 00:07:50,114 And then also how that looks in Israel, 166 00:07:50,114 --> 00:07:53,822 which is know every culture and how 167 00:07:53,822 --> 00:07:55,746 cultures perceive women is really unique 168 00:07:55,746 --> 00:07:57,714 to that culture. And then at the same 169 00:07:57,714 --> 00:08:00,066 time, anywhere where there's sort of this 170 00:08:00,066 --> 00:08:02,646 patriarchy, there's some similarities. So 171 00:08:02,646 --> 00:08:06,326 do you feel like you were facing any sort 172 00:08:06,326 --> 00:08:08,474 of performance bias for yourself or that 173 00:08:08,474 --> 00:08:10,954 you saw other women facing, especially 174 00:08:10,954 --> 00:08:22,846 around the time of having. Absolutely. And 175 00:08:22,846 --> 00:08:26,946 I think that I saw that both in Israel and 176 00:08:26,946 --> 00:08:30,238 the US. And obviously it's a huge 177 00:08:30,238 --> 00:08:32,754 generalization. It depends on the company, 178 00:08:32,754 --> 00:08:35,186 it depends on the manager and the leaders. 179 00:08:35,186 --> 00:08:37,970 I mean, it varies, right? I cannot just 180 00:08:37,970 --> 00:08:41,286 generalize a country, but yes, I've seen 181 00:08:41,286 --> 00:08:43,206 that. Actually, when I was pregnant with 182 00:08:43,206 --> 00:08:47,414 my second child, I was miserable at on. 183 00:08:47,414 --> 00:08:49,414 Even before that, I was put on something 184 00:08:49,414 --> 00:08:51,686 that I really didn't want to do. I 185 00:08:51,686 --> 00:08:55,034 traveled quite a bit when I had my first. 186 00:08:55,034 --> 00:08:58,700 She was a baby, and I traveled from Israel 187 00:08:58,700 --> 00:09:02,270 to California one month and to Japan one 188 00:09:02,270 --> 00:09:04,462 month to do something I hated and I wasn't 189 00:09:04,462 --> 00:09:08,302 even good at. I was just used as a pond in 190 00:09:08,302 --> 00:09:13,326 someone else's toolbox, and I didn't feel 191 00:09:13,326 --> 00:09:16,610 like I had the support I needed. By the 192 00:09:16,610 --> 00:09:19,518 way, women not always support other women, 193 00:09:19,518 --> 00:09:21,374 unfortunately. So the manager above my 194 00:09:21,374 --> 00:09:23,774 manager was a woman, and I didn't feel she 195 00:09:23,774 --> 00:09:28,118 supported me as well. I don't hold grudges 196 00:09:28,118 --> 00:09:30,258 and all that, and I'm not victimizing, but 197 00:09:30,258 --> 00:09:34,294 I'm just saying, yes, there are biases to 198 00:09:34,294 --> 00:09:38,422 make a difference. We need to rise above 199 00:09:38,422 --> 00:09:42,070 those biases and see where we can make an 200 00:09:42,070 --> 00:09:44,938 impact and what kind of choices we have. 201 00:09:44,938 --> 00:09:47,366 So in my example back then, I had a 202 00:09:47,366 --> 00:09:51,434 choice. I could stay or I could leave, but 203 00:09:51,434 --> 00:09:53,594 I wanted to have another child. That was 204 00:09:53,594 --> 00:09:57,038 one of the conflicts that I had. Like have 205 00:09:57,038 --> 00:09:59,070 a child, not have a child. Right. You 206 00:09:59,070 --> 00:10:01,326 mentioned about being a mom. That's one of 207 00:10:01,326 --> 00:10:04,414 the challenges that we face as women, that 208 00:10:04,414 --> 00:10:07,266 when we want to expand the families, then 209 00:10:07,266 --> 00:10:09,646 we have to weigh in also the career 210 00:10:09,646 --> 00:10:12,462 progression, and how is that going to 211 00:10:12,462 --> 00:10:14,494 impact our careers? Unfortunately, it 212 00:10:14,494 --> 00:10:18,594 shouldn't be that way, but it is. I chose 213 00:10:18,594 --> 00:10:23,046 expanding my family. The interesting thing 214 00:10:23,046 --> 00:10:25,286 is that as I was pregnant, this 215 00:10:25,286 --> 00:10:27,382 opportunity for engineering manager came 216 00:10:27,382 --> 00:10:30,314 up, and eventually I actually benefited 217 00:10:30,314 --> 00:10:32,940 from it, but I didn't know that that way. 218 00:10:32,940 --> 00:10:37,180 So I guess that there are biases, but we 219 00:10:37,180 --> 00:10:43,114 have a lot of power to overcome them. 220 00:10:43,114 --> 00:10:45,310 Thank you for sharing that part of your 221 00:10:45,310 --> 00:10:47,934 story. I know that many people listening, 222 00:10:47,934 --> 00:10:49,946 whether they are women and they've 223 00:10:49,946 --> 00:10:51,454 considered having children, already have, 224 00:10:51,454 --> 00:10:54,446 or they're a man married to a woman who's 225 00:10:54,446 --> 00:10:55,902 also wanted to expand their family and 226 00:10:55,902 --> 00:10:57,506 have watched their wife have to go through 227 00:10:57,506 --> 00:10:59,106 some of these complicated decisions. It 228 00:10:59,106 --> 00:11:01,442 can be really challenging. Or even some 229 00:11:01,442 --> 00:11:03,374 people listening might be managers, and 230 00:11:03,374 --> 00:11:06,034 they're also trying to figure out how to 231 00:11:06,034 --> 00:11:08,194 not have any sort of performance bias 232 00:11:08,194 --> 00:11:09,814 against the women that maybe directly 233 00:11:09,814 --> 00:11:12,438 report to them. So all of these things 234 00:11:12,438 --> 00:11:14,550 that we're talking about are super 235 00:11:14,550 --> 00:11:16,790 helpful. When you think about getting 236 00:11:16,790 --> 00:11:20,374 women to the C suite, what is your 237 00:11:20,374 --> 00:11:22,358 perspective on some of the biggest 238 00:11:22,358 --> 00:11:27,334 obstacles to overcome? So there are 239 00:11:27,334 --> 00:11:29,002 obstacles that are internal to those 240 00:11:29,002 --> 00:11:31,062 women, and there are obstacles that are 241 00:11:31,062 --> 00:11:34,142 external. The internal ones are just 242 00:11:34,142 --> 00:11:38,030 having a sense of a, this is feasible for 243 00:11:38,030 --> 00:11:41,710 me. I can see myself sitting at that 244 00:11:41,710 --> 00:11:46,722 table. I'm confident in my ability. I'm 245 00:11:46,722 --> 00:11:50,706 worth it. I deserve it. I have a seat at 246 00:11:50,706 --> 00:11:54,014 that table. My voice matters. I have a 247 00:11:54,014 --> 00:11:55,954 unique voice. I'm different, but it's a 248 00:11:55,954 --> 00:11:59,410 good thing. So those are all the internal 249 00:11:59,410 --> 00:12:01,814 things that women. A lot of times, I mean, 250 00:12:01,814 --> 00:12:04,246 I had that too, right? We understand that 251 00:12:04,246 --> 00:12:06,354 we are different. We don't see role 252 00:12:06,354 --> 00:12:08,614 models, we don't see anyone else. And then 253 00:12:08,614 --> 00:12:11,882 we start kind of doubting ourselves 254 00:12:11,882 --> 00:12:14,106 whether we actually belong there, whether 255 00:12:14,106 --> 00:12:17,754 we are capable and so forth. The external 256 00:12:17,754 --> 00:12:21,706 thing Is the biases, right? Those that are 257 00:12:21,706 --> 00:12:25,022 sitting there already, whether they see us 258 00:12:25,022 --> 00:12:28,462 as worthy, whether they see us as someone 259 00:12:28,462 --> 00:12:33,390 that can provide value, although we are 260 00:12:33,390 --> 00:12:35,182 different, although we bring something 261 00:12:35,182 --> 00:12:37,058 else, because we are different, because we 262 00:12:37,058 --> 00:12:40,114 are not part of the boys Club, because we 263 00:12:40,114 --> 00:12:43,518 are unique. And a lot of times, and again, 264 00:12:43,518 --> 00:12:44,994 I'm not saying anything that they are 265 00:12:44,994 --> 00:12:48,360 doing it from bad intentions, but a lot of 266 00:12:48,360 --> 00:12:51,266 times. And this is why I am a huge 267 00:12:51,266 --> 00:12:53,542 proponent of diversity, related not just 268 00:12:53,542 --> 00:12:58,070 to gender. When everyone is alike and 269 00:12:58,070 --> 00:13:02,550 everyone think the same, there is a basic 270 00:13:02,550 --> 00:13:04,522 hesitation to bring anyone that is 271 00:13:04,522 --> 00:13:06,314 different. I had it, I'll give an example 272 00:13:06,314 --> 00:13:09,834 like I had in one of the companies, people 273 00:13:09,834 --> 00:13:12,090 that brought, you know how it is, refer a 274 00:13:12,090 --> 00:13:14,974 friend program. It's a great thing. But 275 00:13:14,974 --> 00:13:17,818 what happened was that there were a lot of 276 00:13:17,818 --> 00:13:19,438 referrals of people who worked at the same 277 00:13:19,438 --> 00:13:23,630 team. And then what it created like an 278 00:13:23,630 --> 00:13:28,286 internal club, closed club, of those 279 00:13:28,286 --> 00:13:30,466 people who came from the same company. So 280 00:13:30,466 --> 00:13:34,754 this is kind of the problem that it's like 281 00:13:34,754 --> 00:13:39,926 a closed circle. Yeah, I've seen that 282 00:13:39,926 --> 00:13:43,174 happen in more than one situation. It is 283 00:13:43,174 --> 00:13:47,046 the truth that most people get hired in a 284 00:13:47,046 --> 00:13:48,614 situation where they know someone. That's 285 00:13:48,614 --> 00:13:52,006 just statistically true. And there's a lot 286 00:13:52,006 --> 00:13:54,378 of reasons for that. On the recruiting 287 00:13:54,378 --> 00:13:56,966 side, it is a risk every time a recruiter 288 00:13:56,966 --> 00:13:58,726 brings someone new into a company that 289 00:13:58,726 --> 00:14:00,794 doesn't know someone there, because people 290 00:14:00,794 --> 00:14:03,386 can present themselves very well on paper. 291 00:14:03,386 --> 00:14:05,914 They may even have good references. Their 292 00:14:05,914 --> 00:14:07,646 LinkedIn may look incredible and they may 293 00:14:07,646 --> 00:14:10,286 say all these things, but then, every now 294 00:14:10,286 --> 00:14:13,294 and then you get someone that it wasn't a 295 00:14:13,294 --> 00:14:15,966 good fit and you couldn't tell because 296 00:14:15,966 --> 00:14:18,026 they didn't know someone. And so there is 297 00:14:18,026 --> 00:14:20,142 that side. I know that people on the 298 00:14:20,142 --> 00:14:21,586 recruiting side, and I've been on that 299 00:14:21,586 --> 00:14:24,766 side in these interviews before, it always 300 00:14:24,766 --> 00:14:26,434 helps to know you can trust this person 301 00:14:26,434 --> 00:14:29,234 when somebody inside says, I know them. 302 00:14:29,234 --> 00:14:31,682 However, the downside is that you get a 303 00:14:31,682 --> 00:14:33,990 group think with people who are so 304 00:14:33,990 --> 00:14:36,870 similar, and groupthink really inhibits 305 00:14:36,870 --> 00:14:39,846 innovation. And in tech that's huge. We 306 00:14:39,846 --> 00:14:41,782 have to have the ability to innovate. 307 00:14:41,782 --> 00:14:46,058 That's exactly how these companies grow. 308 00:14:46,058 --> 00:14:47,754 Another question related to this. You have 309 00:14:47,754 --> 00:14:49,702 worked in tech for so long, and we've 310 00:14:49,702 --> 00:14:51,726 recently had here in Silicon Valley, quite 311 00:14:51,726 --> 00:14:54,334 a few tech layoffs because of what's been 312 00:14:54,334 --> 00:14:59,786 going on in the last year or so. And so 313 00:14:59,786 --> 00:15:02,346 there's a lot of people looking for new 314 00:15:02,346 --> 00:15:04,766 roles. And today, speaking of LinkedIn, 315 00:15:04,766 --> 00:15:07,506 there really is a piece of it that knowing 316 00:15:07,506 --> 00:15:09,714 how to present yourself on LinkedIn can be 317 00:15:09,714 --> 00:15:13,586 quite hard. And I think specifically, men 318 00:15:13,586 --> 00:15:15,822 and women are often socialized really 319 00:15:15,822 --> 00:15:18,886 differently around this. Self promotion is 320 00:15:18,886 --> 00:15:22,918 really so much more fraught for women in a 321 00:15:22,918 --> 00:15:27,474 lot of cases where it decreases likability 322 00:15:27,474 --> 00:15:30,530 factor for them if they look ambitious or 323 00:15:30,530 --> 00:15:33,466 present themselves. And yet there are ways 324 00:15:33,466 --> 00:15:36,074 to do it that can maybe minimize some of 325 00:15:36,074 --> 00:15:39,126 that. And you mentioned that you also 326 00:15:39,126 --> 00:15:40,746 offered yourself up for a manager 327 00:15:40,746 --> 00:15:44,634 position. So what advice would you give to 328 00:15:44,634 --> 00:15:46,938 women and men who are trying to promote 329 00:15:46,938 --> 00:15:49,134 themselves for a new role and how to do 330 00:15:49,134 --> 00:15:50,814 that in a way that's going to make it a 331 00:15:50,814 --> 00:15:52,926 little easier on the likability for women, 332 00:15:52,926 --> 00:15:56,226 if there is such a thing? Yeah. So first 333 00:15:56,226 --> 00:15:59,650 of all, when you are on the look for a new 334 00:15:59,650 --> 00:16:06,670 role, you have to get into the head of the 335 00:16:06,670 --> 00:16:08,434 recruiter, the hiring manager. What are 336 00:16:08,434 --> 00:16:10,550 they looking for? First of all, so do your 337 00:16:10,550 --> 00:16:12,326 research. I always recommend people I work 338 00:16:12,326 --> 00:16:14,614 with on LinkedIn. Like for example, do 339 00:16:14,614 --> 00:16:17,090 your research. Look at different job 340 00:16:17,090 --> 00:16:18,646 descriptions, see what kind of qualities 341 00:16:18,646 --> 00:16:21,490 they are looking for. We tend to think 342 00:16:21,490 --> 00:16:24,186 inwards about ourselves. What do I want? 343 00:16:24,186 --> 00:16:27,674 What have I done? No, first of all, start 344 00:16:27,674 --> 00:16:30,362 with the opposite. Think, what do they 345 00:16:30,362 --> 00:16:32,702 want? What are they looking for? What do 346 00:16:32,702 --> 00:16:36,334 they value? Then ask yourself, where do I 347 00:16:36,334 --> 00:16:39,374 fit in? What kind of skills and qualities 348 00:16:39,374 --> 00:16:41,786 I have that are super valuable for what 349 00:16:41,786 --> 00:16:44,962 they're looking for. And highlight those. 350 00:16:44,962 --> 00:16:48,194 Make sure that you speak in the language 351 00:16:48,194 --> 00:16:51,620 that they want to hear, that basically you 352 00:16:51,620 --> 00:16:54,526 address what they are looking for. You 353 00:16:54,526 --> 00:16:57,246 solve their problems. That's the biggest 354 00:16:57,246 --> 00:17:00,562 tip I have. And overall, like LinkedIn 355 00:17:00,562 --> 00:17:02,838 branding, that's a marathon. That's not 356 00:17:02,838 --> 00:17:04,566 like one thing that you do when you look 357 00:17:04,566 --> 00:17:07,446 for a job. It something I started doing 358 00:17:07,446 --> 00:17:09,986 when I moved to the US. I had a LinkedIn 359 00:17:09,986 --> 00:17:12,202 profile, like a bare minimum, and I 360 00:17:12,202 --> 00:17:14,378 started nurturing that. And I do that 361 00:17:14,378 --> 00:17:16,090 still. Now it's more focused on my 362 00:17:16,090 --> 00:17:19,814 business. But that was a long haul that I 363 00:17:19,814 --> 00:17:22,746 continued investing in, and it bear 364 00:17:22,746 --> 00:17:29,022 fruits. I got all the time inbound request 365 00:17:29,022 --> 00:17:31,902 from recruiters and hiring managers. And 366 00:17:31,902 --> 00:17:34,590 even if you think that now is the worst 367 00:17:34,590 --> 00:17:36,914 time, a lot of people lost their job. 368 00:17:36,914 --> 00:17:39,246 Still, some companies are still hiring. 369 00:17:39,246 --> 00:17:41,646 They're looking for some people in some 370 00:17:41,646 --> 00:17:43,666 skill set. So there is always a need, 371 00:17:43,666 --> 00:17:45,906 there is always an opportunity. Think that 372 00:17:45,906 --> 00:17:49,910 the mindset of basically that there is 373 00:17:49,910 --> 00:17:51,958 always abundance, there is always 374 00:17:51,958 --> 00:17:54,806 something out there for everyone is very 375 00:17:54,806 --> 00:17:57,954 important. Otherwise you sink into 376 00:17:57,954 --> 00:18:01,766 negativity and there's nothing for me, and 377 00:18:01,766 --> 00:18:06,266 that's not helpful. Yeah, it's so true. 378 00:18:06,266 --> 00:18:09,738 And there is so much psychology around 379 00:18:09,738 --> 00:18:13,558 being laid off or fired from a job for 380 00:18:13,558 --> 00:18:14,558 people who've walked through that, that 381 00:18:14,558 --> 00:18:16,302 are listening, you know what I'm talking 382 00:18:16,302 --> 00:18:19,854 about. But it's a grief process. People 383 00:18:19,854 --> 00:18:22,670 walk through a lot of shock, especially 384 00:18:22,670 --> 00:18:26,258 when it was so unexpected. And then often 385 00:18:26,258 --> 00:18:28,978 the goodbyes can be complicated because 386 00:18:28,978 --> 00:18:30,210 sometimes the need to get out of the 387 00:18:30,210 --> 00:18:33,394 office quickly happens. So picking oneself 388 00:18:33,394 --> 00:18:36,594 up from that shock and grief experience 389 00:18:36,594 --> 00:18:38,742 and the psychology around all of that, 390 00:18:38,742 --> 00:18:42,066 while having to be somebody who's 391 00:18:42,066 --> 00:18:43,698 promoting themselves to want to get hired 392 00:18:43,698 --> 00:18:47,746 somewhere else, it can be a very difficult 393 00:18:47,746 --> 00:18:51,046 mental health journey for a lot of people. 394 00:18:51,046 --> 00:18:53,594 Do you have any advice for people as they 395 00:18:53,594 --> 00:18:55,914 walk through that and how? Were there any 396 00:18:55,914 --> 00:18:57,146 things that have been helpful that you 397 00:18:57,146 --> 00:19:00,826 have seen along the way? Yeah, it's very 398 00:19:00,826 --> 00:19:04,666 difficult. It's not easy. First of all, 399 00:19:04,666 --> 00:19:06,958 griefing is okay, right? I mean, it's not 400 00:19:06,958 --> 00:19:09,038 easy. It's a crisis. A lot of times it's 401 00:19:09,038 --> 00:19:11,402 the biggest cris people face in their 402 00:19:11,402 --> 00:19:14,674 lifetime. Right. Losing a job. First of 403 00:19:14,674 --> 00:19:16,866 all, surround yourself with supportive. 404 00:19:16,866 --> 00:19:19,378 With supportive people, friends, family, 405 00:19:19,378 --> 00:19:22,226 anyone that is supportive. Stay away from 406 00:19:22,226 --> 00:19:24,482 people that maybe bring negativity. 407 00:19:24,482 --> 00:19:26,642 Because sometimes it can be that your best 408 00:19:26,642 --> 00:19:28,934 friends or the people that you hang out 409 00:19:28,934 --> 00:19:31,702 with the most, well, they may not be the 410 00:19:31,702 --> 00:19:35,558 best people to hang around when you are 411 00:19:35,558 --> 00:19:38,562 down, because some people are just 412 00:19:38,562 --> 00:19:43,366 sarcastic, maybe they bring this negative 413 00:19:43,366 --> 00:19:46,010 mindset. So just be aware of that. The 414 00:19:46,010 --> 00:19:49,642 second thing is that volunteering can help 415 00:19:49,642 --> 00:19:52,202 you, although it sounds kind of weird, but 416 00:19:52,202 --> 00:19:54,170 that can help you actually build your 417 00:19:54,170 --> 00:19:56,718 confidence. So think about, okay, I gained 418 00:19:56,718 --> 00:20:01,262 a lot of skills. Who can I help? Like, for 419 00:20:01,262 --> 00:20:03,594 example, when I started mentoring, you 420 00:20:03,594 --> 00:20:05,234 cannot believe the amount of confidence I 421 00:20:05,234 --> 00:20:08,260 got out of it. Just giving back to 422 00:20:08,260 --> 00:20:11,822 someone, sharing my expertise, getting the 423 00:20:11,822 --> 00:20:15,074 feedback, went long ways to my confidence. 424 00:20:15,074 --> 00:20:17,640 So think about mentoring. Think about, 425 00:20:17,640 --> 00:20:20,694 okay, with all the knowledge that I gained 426 00:20:20,694 --> 00:20:24,214 and who can I help? If you help someone 427 00:20:24,214 --> 00:20:26,502 else, it boosts your confidence. You're 428 00:20:26,502 --> 00:20:28,274 doing something. You're actually 429 00:20:28,274 --> 00:20:29,786 identifying your skills. It helps you kind 430 00:20:29,786 --> 00:20:32,362 of sharpen what kind of skills I have, and 431 00:20:32,362 --> 00:20:34,538 maybe those people eventually can connect 432 00:20:34,538 --> 00:20:37,306 it to some other people. Something good 433 00:20:37,306 --> 00:20:42,830 will come out of that. Yeah, I love that 434 00:20:42,830 --> 00:20:45,978 perspective. We can't control the 435 00:20:45,978 --> 00:20:49,070 curveballs that life gives us, but we can 436 00:20:49,070 --> 00:20:52,186 control how we respond. Right. And 437 00:20:52,186 --> 00:20:55,370 sticking to what we know, being able to be 438 00:20:55,370 --> 00:20:56,946 moldable and surrounding ourselves with 439 00:20:56,946 --> 00:20:58,594 good, supportive people, I think that's 440 00:20:58,594 --> 00:21:02,018 really good advice. And considering so 441 00:21:02,018 --> 00:21:04,642 many companies, you said, like you said, 442 00:21:04,642 --> 00:21:06,686 some have laid people off, but some are 443 00:21:06,686 --> 00:21:10,054 hiring right now. And so a lot of people 444 00:21:10,054 --> 00:21:12,134 are having this experience over the last 445 00:21:12,134 --> 00:21:15,746 few years, especially a lot of remote 446 00:21:15,746 --> 00:21:17,720 employees. And I know that especially for 447 00:21:17,720 --> 00:21:22,106 women we see over and over again. McKinsey 448 00:21:22,106 --> 00:21:25,354 and company just last month released their 449 00:21:25,354 --> 00:21:27,386 state of women in the workforce research 450 00:21:27,386 --> 00:21:29,722 that they do every year. And one of the 451 00:21:29,722 --> 00:21:32,150 things that continually comes up, 452 00:21:32,150 --> 00:21:34,414 particularly for women in the workforce, 453 00:21:34,414 --> 00:21:37,162 is how important the ability to work 454 00:21:37,162 --> 00:21:39,566 remotely or hybrid is for women in 455 00:21:39,566 --> 00:21:41,710 particular, because of all the reasons 456 00:21:41,710 --> 00:21:44,206 where women often are doing the second 457 00:21:44,206 --> 00:21:47,230 shift of the unpaid labor at home, either 458 00:21:47,230 --> 00:21:51,886 exclusively or the majority of iT. And so 459 00:21:51,886 --> 00:21:54,226 that's why remote work allows them to stay 460 00:21:54,226 --> 00:21:57,374 in the workforce in ways that they 461 00:21:57,374 --> 00:21:59,574 otherwise would not be able to. But 462 00:21:59,574 --> 00:22:02,454 companies onboarding new remote employees, 463 00:22:02,454 --> 00:22:05,126 that can be challenging. So what advice do 464 00:22:05,126 --> 00:22:07,186 you have for companies that are doing the 465 00:22:07,186 --> 00:22:09,820 onboarding process mostly remotely right 466 00:22:09,820 --> 00:22:14,074 now? Yeah. So I worked remote since 2016, 467 00:22:14,074 --> 00:22:18,086 way before the pandemic. I think that it 468 00:22:18,086 --> 00:22:21,094 starts with a mindset. When you work with 469 00:22:21,094 --> 00:22:23,662 remote people, you have to be investing 470 00:22:23,662 --> 00:22:26,654 more time in processes like structure, 471 00:22:26,654 --> 00:22:30,558 more structure, and in being deliberate 472 00:22:30,558 --> 00:22:34,066 about building relationships and trust. So 473 00:22:34,066 --> 00:22:36,734 first of all, have a well defined 474 00:22:36,734 --> 00:22:39,422 onboarding process, company wide, and then 475 00:22:39,422 --> 00:22:41,982 department wide, and then team wide. Well 476 00:22:41,982 --> 00:22:46,606 defined, well documented. I'm not a 477 00:22:46,606 --> 00:22:49,154 process kind of fanatic. I'm not a process 478 00:22:49,154 --> 00:22:53,078 oriented person. But when I worked remote, 479 00:22:53,078 --> 00:22:57,190 I really made a huge effort in defining 480 00:22:57,190 --> 00:23:00,838 onboarding and made a list of, okay, 481 00:23:00,838 --> 00:23:03,146 someone starting, who is their buddy, who 482 00:23:03,146 --> 00:23:05,786 is kind of accompanying them, who do they 483 00:23:05,786 --> 00:23:08,346 need to meet in their first week? Who do 484 00:23:08,346 --> 00:23:10,074 they need to meet in their second week? 485 00:23:10,074 --> 00:23:12,142 Even I set up meetings for those people. I 486 00:23:12,142 --> 00:23:14,350 thought that needed that extra kind of 487 00:23:14,350 --> 00:23:19,200 help facilitating that define 30, 60, 90 488 00:23:19,200 --> 00:23:22,794 day plan and what success. So be 489 00:23:22,794 --> 00:23:25,106 deliberate about setting even more than 490 00:23:25,106 --> 00:23:26,626 when you work in an office. Because when 491 00:23:26,626 --> 00:23:28,654 you work in an office, you have more than 492 00:23:28,654 --> 00:23:30,594 informal interactions. You have to invest 493 00:23:30,594 --> 00:23:35,810 more time in setting the expectations, in 494 00:23:35,810 --> 00:23:39,202 building the onboarding process and then 495 00:23:39,202 --> 00:23:41,862 checking in with people deliberately. 496 00:23:41,862 --> 00:23:43,606 Again, you don't have the opportunity to 497 00:23:43,606 --> 00:23:47,186 see them in the coffee break or getting to 498 00:23:47,186 --> 00:23:49,106 lunch. So you have to be deliberate about 499 00:23:49,106 --> 00:23:51,974 it, checking in, maybe reaching out in 500 00:23:51,974 --> 00:23:55,702 slack, maybe setting up some time. I was 501 00:23:55,702 --> 00:23:57,706 fanatic with one on ones, and believe me, 502 00:23:57,706 --> 00:24:01,510 when you manage engineers, they don't like 503 00:24:01,510 --> 00:24:03,722 meetings, even more so than managers. 504 00:24:03,722 --> 00:24:05,694 Right? And I said, why do I need to meet 505 00:24:05,694 --> 00:24:08,494 with you? And I said, well, you need to 506 00:24:08,494 --> 00:24:10,986 meet with me because I want to see how 507 00:24:10,986 --> 00:24:14,590 you're doing. Even if we just spend five 508 00:24:14,590 --> 00:24:16,626 minutes, you tell me everything is fine, 509 00:24:16,626 --> 00:24:19,294 and then we say bye until next week, 510 00:24:19,294 --> 00:24:22,498 that's fine. That kind of force, that kind 511 00:24:22,498 --> 00:24:25,506 of thing. Because sometimes things come up 512 00:24:25,506 --> 00:24:29,746 and if you don't have that meeting, I will 513 00:24:29,746 --> 00:24:32,046 not be aware of that. I don't know what 514 00:24:32,046 --> 00:24:33,654 someone is going through if I don't see 515 00:24:33,654 --> 00:24:35,298 them, if I don't see their face, if I 516 00:24:35,298 --> 00:24:37,462 don't see like maybe they're going through 517 00:24:37,462 --> 00:24:40,406 something in life. I have no ability to 518 00:24:40,406 --> 00:24:43,180 see that when they are not next to me. 519 00:24:43,180 --> 00:24:47,306 Yeah, so good. Really helpful. Because I 520 00:24:47,306 --> 00:24:49,098 think the onboarding experience, we have 521 00:24:49,098 --> 00:24:50,954 all this research to show, like how you 522 00:24:50,954 --> 00:24:52,858 start people off, it really sets the tone 523 00:24:52,858 --> 00:24:54,666 for how they're going to feel about the 524 00:24:54,666 --> 00:24:57,086 company going forward. And you really get 525 00:24:57,086 --> 00:24:58,942 one chance to do that well, and it's not 526 00:24:58,942 --> 00:25:00,606 easy, it's very time consuming. But I 527 00:25:00,606 --> 00:25:02,046 think that hitting the highlights, like 528 00:25:02,046 --> 00:25:03,854 you mentioned, are really important. And 529 00:25:03,854 --> 00:25:07,374 having those open communications too 530 00:25:07,374 --> 00:25:08,658 remote teams, like you mentioned, you have 531 00:25:08,658 --> 00:25:10,674 to work a lot on building relationships 532 00:25:10,674 --> 00:25:13,474 and building trust. Any tips around that 533 00:25:13,474 --> 00:25:17,166 for people who may be know, we have global 534 00:25:17,166 --> 00:25:19,282 workforce know? So you might have somebody 535 00:25:19,282 --> 00:25:23,346 living here in California and they know 536 00:25:23,346 --> 00:25:25,046 interactions with a remote team in China 537 00:25:25,046 --> 00:25:28,434 or Taiwan. And so they're not only 538 00:25:28,434 --> 00:25:31,862 opposite time zones, but also cultural 539 00:25:31,862 --> 00:25:34,346 communication is so different. One might 540 00:25:34,346 --> 00:25:36,154 be more of a direct communicator, one 541 00:25:36,154 --> 00:25:39,110 might be more of a high context 542 00:25:39,110 --> 00:25:41,722 communication. There's so many nuances 543 00:25:41,722 --> 00:25:43,626 there. Any tips on how to build 544 00:25:43,626 --> 00:25:45,306 relationships and trust with these remote 545 00:25:45,306 --> 00:25:49,914 global teams? Absolutely. So obviously, 546 00:25:49,914 --> 00:25:52,094 it's much, much more challenging when you 547 00:25:52,094 --> 00:25:54,926 work with people from a totally different 548 00:25:54,926 --> 00:25:58,100 culture. You have to first of all, 549 00:25:58,100 --> 00:26:02,466 understand that they are different. So you 550 00:26:02,466 --> 00:26:06,478 need to start getting to know them, 551 00:26:06,478 --> 00:26:09,010 understanding their motivations, 552 00:26:09,010 --> 00:26:11,206 understanding how they like to work, how 553 00:26:11,206 --> 00:26:12,966 they like to communicate. What do they 554 00:26:12,966 --> 00:26:14,646 need from you? And in order to know that, 555 00:26:14,646 --> 00:26:16,840 you need to ask. There is no way you can 556 00:26:16,840 --> 00:26:20,534 guess asking what are they expecting from 557 00:26:20,534 --> 00:26:22,550 you? What do they need from you as their 558 00:26:22,550 --> 00:26:24,346 manager? What is important to them, what 559 00:26:24,346 --> 00:26:27,546 are their goals? What kind of environment 560 00:26:27,546 --> 00:26:30,634 do they need to succeed? So just asking. I 561 00:26:30,634 --> 00:26:33,434 mean, sometimes people are, especially in 562 00:26:33,434 --> 00:26:36,574 cultures that are not very open. They may 563 00:26:36,574 --> 00:26:38,846 not elaborate if you will not ask. So you 564 00:26:38,846 --> 00:26:43,774 need to be a great at asking questions and 565 00:26:43,774 --> 00:26:47,078 be curious instead of making assumptions. 566 00:26:47,078 --> 00:26:50,718 Adopt curiosity over judgment and 567 00:26:50,718 --> 00:26:53,186 assumptions, because we judge people when 568 00:26:53,186 --> 00:26:56,114 we look from our own lenses and someone 569 00:26:56,114 --> 00:26:58,462 that may operate on a completely different 570 00:26:58,462 --> 00:26:59,814 operating system, right? I mean, they have 571 00:26:59,814 --> 00:27:02,134 their own values and the way they operate 572 00:27:02,134 --> 00:27:04,194 is totally different. And then we make 573 00:27:04,194 --> 00:27:06,310 assumptions and we judge them. So be 574 00:27:06,310 --> 00:27:11,330 curious. Really good. I love that the 575 00:27:11,330 --> 00:27:13,386 curiosity is what leads to knowledge. And 576 00:27:13,386 --> 00:27:15,286 if we don't have that curiosity, then we 577 00:27:15,286 --> 00:27:18,106 don't know. And knowing people and knowing 578 00:27:18,106 --> 00:27:20,266 them deeply and knowing them well is a way 579 00:27:20,266 --> 00:27:23,018 to build trust and doing what we say we're 580 00:27:23,018 --> 00:27:25,886 going to do and doing our best with each 581 00:27:25,886 --> 00:27:29,434 other. And I do really appreciate that 582 00:27:29,434 --> 00:27:30,606 perspective because it is so true. I've 583 00:27:30,606 --> 00:27:33,114 found it to be true again and again. 584 00:27:33,114 --> 00:27:36,386 Communication is really key there. Some 585 00:27:36,386 --> 00:27:38,578 people struggle, especially remotely when 586 00:27:38,578 --> 00:27:41,726 it comes to sort of delegating. And as 587 00:27:41,726 --> 00:27:44,226 leaders and managers and organizations 588 00:27:44,226 --> 00:27:45,650 where there's a lot on our plate, 589 00:27:45,650 --> 00:27:47,426 sometimes you feel like there's much more 590 00:27:47,426 --> 00:27:48,966 than you can accomplish in a given week 591 00:27:48,966 --> 00:27:50,966 because some of these companies that some 592 00:27:50,966 --> 00:27:53,926 of us work for just move fast and there's 593 00:27:53,926 --> 00:27:58,246 a lot expected of us. And yet delegation 594 00:27:58,246 --> 00:28:00,486 can be a really big challenge for a lot of 595 00:28:00,486 --> 00:28:02,922 managers and leaders. Do you have any tips 596 00:28:02,922 --> 00:28:07,500 about that for people? Yeah, absolutely. 597 00:28:07,500 --> 00:28:11,434 So it's an acquired skill. First of all, I 598 00:28:11,434 --> 00:28:15,466 think that you need to ask yourself, what 599 00:28:15,466 --> 00:28:17,982 are the things that I do that makes the 600 00:28:17,982 --> 00:28:20,606 most impact? So looking at all the things 601 00:28:20,606 --> 00:28:22,990 that you do, first of all, and assessing 602 00:28:22,990 --> 00:28:25,006 impact, the things that you do that maybe 603 00:28:25,006 --> 00:28:28,194 are not making the most impact, thinking, 604 00:28:28,194 --> 00:28:30,850 okay, who is maybe a better fit to do 605 00:28:30,850 --> 00:28:32,802 them? Maybe it's someone from your team, 606 00:28:32,802 --> 00:28:35,282 maybe someone else. I don't know. The 607 00:28:35,282 --> 00:28:38,594 other way to look about it is if I 608 00:28:38,594 --> 00:28:41,218 delegate something to someone. Maybe 609 00:28:41,218 --> 00:28:43,218 that's not like, for example, when 610 00:28:43,218 --> 00:28:45,670 engineers grow to be managers, it's very 611 00:28:45,670 --> 00:28:48,614 difficult for them to let go of technical 612 00:28:48,614 --> 00:28:51,394 stuff that they used to do, maybe taking 613 00:28:51,394 --> 00:28:53,866 architecture decisions, making. But then 614 00:28:53,866 --> 00:28:55,962 you need to ask yourself, is it the best 615 00:28:55,962 --> 00:28:58,774 use of our time? Because maybe I'm a great 616 00:28:58,774 --> 00:29:00,698 technical engineer, but now I'm a manager, 617 00:29:00,698 --> 00:29:03,150 so I have other things to worry about. And 618 00:29:03,150 --> 00:29:07,194 maybe I'm most effective in nurturing my 619 00:29:07,194 --> 00:29:09,326 teams, helping them grow, building 620 00:29:09,326 --> 00:29:11,102 relationship with product, I don't know, 621 00:29:11,102 --> 00:29:14,298 whatever the case may be. And then if I 622 00:29:14,298 --> 00:29:16,606 delegate those technical stuff to someone 623 00:29:16,606 --> 00:29:19,282 in my team, that's another way to help 624 00:29:19,282 --> 00:29:21,874 them grow. So it's not just that I free up 625 00:29:21,874 --> 00:29:24,862 my time to think that I can make a greater 626 00:29:24,862 --> 00:29:28,166 impact, but also I free up my time to help 627 00:29:28,166 --> 00:29:33,298 someone else progress in their careers. 628 00:29:33,298 --> 00:29:35,974 It's a great perspective. Yeah. When we 629 00:29:35,974 --> 00:29:39,046 can let things go a little bit, it is a 630 00:29:39,046 --> 00:29:41,750 way to develop leaders, and that's hard. I 631 00:29:41,750 --> 00:29:44,202 think you and I are both parents, and it's 632 00:29:44,202 --> 00:29:45,562 something that parents have to walk 633 00:29:45,562 --> 00:29:48,886 through. So I always feel sad when I see 634 00:29:48,886 --> 00:29:51,174 organizations that are so biased against 635 00:29:51,174 --> 00:29:53,206 moms or a lot of this narrative that says 636 00:29:53,206 --> 00:29:55,838 moms are lazy or not capable at work. And 637 00:29:55,838 --> 00:29:57,466 I just think, why wouldn't you want to 638 00:29:57,466 --> 00:29:59,662 hire moms? Most moms I know are great 639 00:29:59,662 --> 00:30:01,166 project managers at home. They're having 640 00:30:01,166 --> 00:30:04,154 to learn to delegate, to raise little 641 00:30:04,154 --> 00:30:07,114 humans into adults and help them leave the 642 00:30:07,114 --> 00:30:09,730 nest one day. I mean, this is a years long 643 00:30:09,730 --> 00:30:11,186 process that moms are having to make sure 644 00:30:11,186 --> 00:30:12,958 the catering is done at home, whether 645 00:30:12,958 --> 00:30:15,394 they're cooking it or outsourcing it, 646 00:30:15,394 --> 00:30:17,218 making sure supplies are always stocked in 647 00:30:17,218 --> 00:30:19,842 the warehouse, aka the cabinets and the 648 00:30:19,842 --> 00:30:21,766 pantry. Right. We have a lot of skills 649 00:30:21,766 --> 00:30:25,218 that we bring, but it does require 650 00:30:25,218 --> 00:30:27,366 delegation as a parent. And so we see that 651 00:30:27,366 --> 00:30:30,018 in managers too. It can be hard to. You 652 00:30:30,018 --> 00:30:32,070 don't think as a parent your kid is quite 653 00:30:32,070 --> 00:30:33,866 ready sometimes, but you test it out a 654 00:30:33,866 --> 00:30:35,974 little bit. Right? And the same with 655 00:30:35,974 --> 00:30:37,322 managers. Maybe you're not sure if 656 00:30:37,322 --> 00:30:39,286 somebody that directly reports to you 657 00:30:39,286 --> 00:30:41,446 feels 100% ready for that task, but you 658 00:30:41,446 --> 00:30:43,934 walk alongside, you do this model assist, 659 00:30:43,934 --> 00:30:45,918 watch and leave kind of process that a lot 660 00:30:45,918 --> 00:30:49,454 of us use. Right? Yeah. And sometimes 661 00:30:49,454 --> 00:30:52,000 people just have to restructure things 662 00:30:52,000 --> 00:30:56,366 too. I'm thinking right now, you're 663 00:30:56,366 --> 00:30:58,562 talking about being an engineer, and the 664 00:30:58,562 --> 00:31:00,462 company I work in, we have a lot of 665 00:31:00,462 --> 00:31:03,118 engineers as well. And my oldest son is 666 00:31:03,118 --> 00:31:05,620 studying to be an engineer and so familiar 667 00:31:05,620 --> 00:31:08,806 with that sort of way of thinking and that 668 00:31:08,806 --> 00:31:11,938 way of working. I think in a lot of 669 00:31:11,938 --> 00:31:15,414 engineering situations, not exclusively by 670 00:31:15,414 --> 00:31:17,366 any means, but you tend to get a lot more 671 00:31:17,366 --> 00:31:20,086 sort of introverts in a role like that. 672 00:31:20,086 --> 00:31:21,674 And so if you have somebody who's a little 673 00:31:21,674 --> 00:31:24,986 more introverted, and then they're needing 674 00:31:24,986 --> 00:31:27,482 to grow into a manager role or even learn 675 00:31:27,482 --> 00:31:29,914 to network, do you have any tips for 676 00:31:29,914 --> 00:31:31,838 people that are on the introverted side 677 00:31:31,838 --> 00:31:33,678 that are having to sort of build these 678 00:31:33,678 --> 00:31:36,366 relationship skills? I know, it's so 679 00:31:36,366 --> 00:31:42,174 difficult. I'm an introvert myself. I 680 00:31:42,174 --> 00:31:46,142 think that the best way would be to see 681 00:31:46,142 --> 00:31:48,466 what areas you're passionate about and how 682 00:31:48,466 --> 00:31:50,530 can you help others. That's a great first 683 00:31:50,530 --> 00:31:53,570 step, right? To build kind of to network, 684 00:31:53,570 --> 00:31:56,378 help other people speak on an area that 685 00:31:56,378 --> 00:31:58,514 you're passionate about. Even the most 686 00:31:58,514 --> 00:32:03,106 introverted persons, and I've managed very 687 00:32:03,106 --> 00:32:06,390 introverted engineers, when you find 688 00:32:06,390 --> 00:32:08,150 something that they are very passionate 689 00:32:08,150 --> 00:32:10,154 about, they can talk all day long about 690 00:32:10,154 --> 00:32:12,934 it. So find those areas where you're 691 00:32:12,934 --> 00:32:15,002 passionate, where you're interested, and 692 00:32:15,002 --> 00:32:16,790 find opportunities to share that 693 00:32:16,790 --> 00:32:19,718 knowledge, and it can be with just one 694 00:32:19,718 --> 00:32:22,634 individuals maybe in some group setup, 695 00:32:22,634 --> 00:32:25,850 maybe eventually, maybe at a conference. 696 00:32:25,850 --> 00:32:28,334 Conferences are great ways to get out of 697 00:32:28,334 --> 00:32:30,766 your comfort zone. And I'll tell you, it 698 00:32:30,766 --> 00:32:32,682 was very difficult for me to go to 699 00:32:32,682 --> 00:32:34,626 conferences and network and all that. It 700 00:32:34,626 --> 00:32:38,174 was not easy, but I kind of deliberately 701 00:32:38,174 --> 00:32:41,406 decided to go there, despite my nature, to 702 00:32:41,406 --> 00:32:46,302 avoid those situations. So follow just the 703 00:32:46,302 --> 00:32:49,446 things that you feel like you are more 704 00:32:49,446 --> 00:32:53,042 easy to talk about. And also finding 705 00:32:53,042 --> 00:32:55,398 opportunities to collaborate with people. 706 00:32:55,398 --> 00:32:58,326 Like for example, hackathons are great 707 00:32:58,326 --> 00:33:00,774 ways to kind of get to know people, open 708 00:33:00,774 --> 00:33:02,890 source projects. So find those 709 00:33:02,890 --> 00:33:06,234 opportunities to meet people on areas that 710 00:33:06,234 --> 00:33:09,126 you feel super comfortable, super 711 00:33:09,126 --> 00:33:11,286 passionate about. That will make it just 712 00:33:11,286 --> 00:33:13,850 easier than just network with someone 713 00:33:13,850 --> 00:33:15,806 because we tend to think of networking. 714 00:33:15,806 --> 00:33:18,574 Oh, I just go and talk with someone about 715 00:33:18,574 --> 00:33:20,846 their life, right? Or talk about, I don't 716 00:33:20,846 --> 00:33:22,574 know what to talk about. So talk about 717 00:33:22,574 --> 00:33:25,682 things that you feel comfortable talking 718 00:33:25,682 --> 00:33:27,998 about. Be a geek and just talk about the 719 00:33:27,998 --> 00:33:31,554 techie stuff. Love that advice. That's 720 00:33:31,554 --> 00:33:35,634 really great advice. Yeah. I think that 721 00:33:35,634 --> 00:33:37,618 for most introverts that I know, chitchat 722 00:33:37,618 --> 00:33:40,066 can be really uncomfortable, but that is 723 00:33:40,066 --> 00:33:41,638 really good advice. Just geek out on what 724 00:33:41,638 --> 00:33:43,782 you know and talk about what you know, and 725 00:33:43,782 --> 00:33:45,014 somebody out there is going to love it 726 00:33:45,014 --> 00:33:46,662 too. And that's part of networking, which 727 00:33:46,662 --> 00:33:50,058 is really great. I want to talk about this 728 00:33:50,058 --> 00:33:55,370 a little bit. One of the challenges I hear 729 00:33:55,370 --> 00:33:57,766 about every now and then in the global 730 00:33:57,766 --> 00:34:00,426 leadership and development work I do here 731 00:34:00,426 --> 00:34:03,094 is sometimes people who are managers, they 732 00:34:03,094 --> 00:34:05,840 have a direct report and they're seeing 733 00:34:05,840 --> 00:34:08,606 some performance issues, and maybe they 734 00:34:08,606 --> 00:34:10,346 don't even know why. It's just that 735 00:34:10,346 --> 00:34:12,906 there's deadlines that are being missed or 736 00:34:12,906 --> 00:34:16,706 there's work that's not being done up to 737 00:34:16,706 --> 00:34:20,078 the expectation. Various types of 738 00:34:20,078 --> 00:34:23,778 performance issues that may be unknown as 739 00:34:23,778 --> 00:34:26,402 to what the reasons are with their team. 740 00:34:26,402 --> 00:34:28,342 What strategies do you recommend when 741 00:34:28,342 --> 00:34:30,246 somebody faces that on their team that 742 00:34:30,246 --> 00:34:32,470 they need to have a difficult conversation 743 00:34:32,470 --> 00:34:34,950 with? Yeah, and this is extremely 744 00:34:34,950 --> 00:34:37,650 difficult for all managers, especially new 745 00:34:37,650 --> 00:34:41,654 managers. Always difficult to have those 746 00:34:41,654 --> 00:34:44,374 uncomfortable conversations. My first 747 00:34:44,374 --> 00:34:47,162 advice would be sticking with facts, 748 00:34:47,162 --> 00:34:51,222 trying to be less emotional about it and 749 00:34:51,222 --> 00:34:56,330 less opinionated. So try to avoid 750 00:34:56,330 --> 00:35:00,234 sentences that start with I think, I feel. 751 00:35:00,234 --> 00:35:06,882 Replace them with I observed, I saw. So 752 00:35:06,882 --> 00:35:10,594 use data, use observation. Use things that 753 00:35:10,594 --> 00:35:14,686 are neutral. Right? I mean, it's not an 754 00:35:14,686 --> 00:35:18,422 opinion, it's not a feeling, it's data. 755 00:35:18,422 --> 00:35:20,502 Then be curious. As I said, curiosity is 756 00:35:20,502 --> 00:35:23,378 number one. You start with sharing 757 00:35:23,378 --> 00:35:27,254 observations. I observe that every time 758 00:35:27,254 --> 00:35:32,394 you estimate something, it takes you twice 759 00:35:32,394 --> 00:35:35,722 as much. I'm just making something up. 760 00:35:35,722 --> 00:35:41,338 Right. I observe that when you submit a PR 761 00:35:41,338 --> 00:35:43,646 there are always a lot of comments from 762 00:35:43,646 --> 00:35:48,138 your peers. I observe that you get, I 763 00:35:48,138 --> 00:35:50,974 don't know, whatever amount of bugs on 764 00:35:50,974 --> 00:35:53,642 code that you submit or you get more 765 00:35:53,642 --> 00:35:58,482 whatever observations. Then give the space 766 00:35:58,482 --> 00:36:02,990 to respond. But be curious about listen. 767 00:36:02,990 --> 00:36:05,566 Practice active listening, not hearing. 768 00:36:05,566 --> 00:36:08,206 Active listening. Be curious to say, okay, 769 00:36:08,206 --> 00:36:10,518 I've said what I wanted to say. Now I'm 770 00:36:10,518 --> 00:36:13,654 going to fully listen to you and I want to 771 00:36:13,654 --> 00:36:15,986 hear what you have to say. What are your 772 00:36:15,986 --> 00:36:19,322 thoughts about it? What is your take? Hear 773 00:36:19,322 --> 00:36:24,106 them out. Sometimes they may not agree 774 00:36:24,106 --> 00:36:27,174 with you, but you have to be at least open 775 00:36:27,174 --> 00:36:29,980 minded to hearing out what they have to 776 00:36:29,980 --> 00:36:34,622 say and then make sure that expectations 777 00:36:34,622 --> 00:36:39,120 are clear. A lot of times the child start 778 00:36:39,120 --> 00:36:42,074 with having different expectations or 779 00:36:42,074 --> 00:36:43,738 understanding of what is the role of what 780 00:36:43,738 --> 00:36:48,510 is expected from them and have those 781 00:36:48,510 --> 00:36:50,942 conversations about expectations from that 782 00:36:50,942 --> 00:36:53,650 role, from that individual. Maybe there's 783 00:36:53,650 --> 00:36:57,794 something not aligned there and agree on 784 00:36:57,794 --> 00:37:01,014 what's next. Ask them, what do you think? 785 00:37:01,014 --> 00:37:03,938 What do you propose? It's their 786 00:37:03,938 --> 00:37:05,586 responsibility as well. It's not just 787 00:37:05,586 --> 00:37:09,350 yours. As a manager, if they are not 788 00:37:09,350 --> 00:37:11,986 performing, they need to come up with 789 00:37:11,986 --> 00:37:13,978 solutions. They need to propose. What do 790 00:37:13,978 --> 00:37:15,770 you need for me? I mean, you're there to 791 00:37:15,770 --> 00:37:17,866 support them. What do you need for me? 792 00:37:17,866 --> 00:37:21,394 What is missing? But also what do you 793 00:37:21,394 --> 00:37:27,278 propose doing? Very good. Yeah, I love 794 00:37:27,278 --> 00:37:31,962 that. I think that good leadership at 795 00:37:31,962 --> 00:37:33,946 foundational level is the kind where 796 00:37:33,946 --> 00:37:37,938 listening to understand is right. And I do 797 00:37:37,938 --> 00:37:40,446 a lot of training on this and have 798 00:37:40,446 --> 00:37:41,646 recently done a couple of different 799 00:37:41,646 --> 00:37:43,826 leadership summits, both in our UK office 800 00:37:43,826 --> 00:37:47,602 as well as our office near Memphis. And 801 00:37:47,602 --> 00:37:49,478 every time I'm doing these listening to 802 00:37:49,478 --> 00:37:52,162 understand workshops with people, it's so 803 00:37:52,162 --> 00:37:54,006 impactful because good listening skills, 804 00:37:54,006 --> 00:37:55,634 where you're listening for facts and 805 00:37:55,634 --> 00:37:57,926 feelings and values, is a really deeper 806 00:37:57,926 --> 00:38:00,214 kind of listening than just hearing. 807 00:38:00,214 --> 00:38:02,122 Right? Especially in our distracted world 808 00:38:02,122 --> 00:38:04,954 of fast paced but deep listening is 809 00:38:04,954 --> 00:38:06,854 something we have to work on. And as 810 00:38:06,854 --> 00:38:09,274 leaders and managers in particular, 811 00:38:09,274 --> 00:38:11,754 because of the power dynamic that exists 812 00:38:11,754 --> 00:38:13,514 there, that if we're not listening, we 813 00:38:13,514 --> 00:38:15,730 have blind spots. Blind spots are 814 00:38:15,730 --> 00:38:18,398 dangerous. We could run over people. And 815 00:38:18,398 --> 00:38:21,166 one of the things I really appreciate in 816 00:38:21,166 --> 00:38:23,214 the work that I do, I partner with the 817 00:38:23,214 --> 00:38:26,174 center for Creative Leadership and am 818 00:38:26,174 --> 00:38:28,306 using their curriculum in the company 819 00:38:28,306 --> 00:38:30,498 where I work to help us train on their 820 00:38:30,498 --> 00:38:33,358 research based methods. But one of their 821 00:38:33,358 --> 00:38:35,634 models for feedback in these situations or 822 00:38:35,634 --> 00:38:38,418 any situation is to do what they call SBI. 823 00:38:38,418 --> 00:38:40,440 It's a lot of what you just. Said, 824 00:38:40,440 --> 00:38:44,946 situation. Behavior, impact. And then you 825 00:38:44,946 --> 00:38:46,742 pause and ask for the intent, like you 826 00:38:46,742 --> 00:38:48,774 said, and you stay really curious. You 827 00:38:48,774 --> 00:38:50,374 say, this is the situation. You're not 828 00:38:50,374 --> 00:38:52,790 using feelings, you're just using the 829 00:38:52,790 --> 00:38:54,314 data, what you observe, right. And then 830 00:38:54,314 --> 00:38:56,586 their behavior and then how that impacted 831 00:38:56,586 --> 00:38:58,106 you, and then you pause and you ask for 832 00:38:58,106 --> 00:39:00,586 their intent. And it's been really great 833 00:39:00,586 --> 00:39:03,686 to see how people using that, myself 834 00:39:03,686 --> 00:39:06,142 included. It's really a great way to have 835 00:39:06,142 --> 00:39:08,366 that difficult conversation, which we have 836 00:39:08,366 --> 00:39:11,742 to have a lot as managers and leaders. So 837 00:39:11,742 --> 00:39:13,146 love what you had to say and very 838 00:39:13,146 --> 00:39:14,706 consistent with what I found to be helpful 839 00:39:14,706 --> 00:39:18,594 as well. I'd love to hear if you have any 840 00:39:18,594 --> 00:39:24,050 sort of story that is impactful from your 841 00:39:24,050 --> 00:39:29,474 career that made you who you are as a 842 00:39:29,474 --> 00:39:31,574 leader. Was there any particular person 843 00:39:31,574 --> 00:39:33,926 that influenced you? Was there any 844 00:39:33,926 --> 00:39:36,374 particular situation that kind of gave you 845 00:39:36,374 --> 00:39:38,486 the values that you have to want to invest 846 00:39:38,486 --> 00:39:41,366 in others and make a difference? Any story 847 00:39:41,366 --> 00:39:43,098 that kind of formed you to make you kind 848 00:39:43,098 --> 00:39:45,466 of the leader that you are? I don't know 849 00:39:45,466 --> 00:39:47,786 if I can point to one story. I think it 850 00:39:47,786 --> 00:39:52,714 was a journey, but I remember that the 851 00:39:52,714 --> 00:39:56,142 managers that inspired me even when I 852 00:39:56,142 --> 00:39:59,118 started out, and I couldn't even see 853 00:39:59,118 --> 00:40:02,378 myself there, I was so much at the 854 00:40:02,378 --> 00:40:04,366 beginning. I saw those managers and said, 855 00:40:04,366 --> 00:40:07,666 I want to become this. So a lot of times, 856 00:40:07,666 --> 00:40:10,306 just identifying someone and say, I want 857 00:40:10,306 --> 00:40:12,962 to be like that. And what I appreciated, 858 00:40:12,962 --> 00:40:15,182 and those are my core values, I 859 00:40:15,182 --> 00:40:19,766 appreciated people who were humble, who 860 00:40:19,766 --> 00:40:23,702 were compassionate and empathetic, who 861 00:40:23,702 --> 00:40:27,510 wanted to help me grow, always listened, 862 00:40:27,510 --> 00:40:30,662 and always kind of treated people with 863 00:40:30,662 --> 00:40:35,914 respect and every person differently. I 864 00:40:35,914 --> 00:40:38,602 had a manager that we had a team, a global 865 00:40:38,602 --> 00:40:40,886 team. I was still relatively at the 866 00:40:40,886 --> 00:40:44,254 beginning of my career. And that manager, 867 00:40:44,254 --> 00:40:48,462 I was totally inspired and amazed how he 868 00:40:48,462 --> 00:40:51,934 was able to conduct a meeting with people 869 00:40:51,934 --> 00:40:55,282 from so many different countries and be 870 00:40:55,282 --> 00:40:58,190 able to motivate everyone and kind of 871 00:40:58,190 --> 00:41:00,354 gather everyone together. And I remember 872 00:41:00,354 --> 00:41:05,474 that I thought, I want to become like him. 873 00:41:05,474 --> 00:41:08,454 It took me some years to eventually get 874 00:41:08,454 --> 00:41:12,402 there, but I think that having someone who 875 00:41:12,402 --> 00:41:15,778 inspire you, that you can see yourself 876 00:41:15,778 --> 00:41:17,590 role models are really important. That's 877 00:41:17,590 --> 00:41:19,702 why. One of the reasons why I think that 878 00:41:19,702 --> 00:41:23,154 women have problems getting up to the 879 00:41:23,154 --> 00:41:25,766 exact roles they don't see women role 880 00:41:25,766 --> 00:41:28,038 models. So you really need to relate to a 881 00:41:28,038 --> 00:41:31,210 role model to see, this is what I want to 882 00:41:31,210 --> 00:41:33,194 be again, it's not a copy, it's not a 883 00:41:33,194 --> 00:41:36,720 clone, but someone to aspire to become. 884 00:41:36,720 --> 00:41:41,370 Like. So true. It's been true in my 885 00:41:41,370 --> 00:41:43,690 career, in life as well. I did work in an 886 00:41:43,690 --> 00:41:46,174 organization that had no women in the 887 00:41:46,174 --> 00:41:50,094 executive level or even the senior 888 00:41:50,094 --> 00:41:52,066 management level for a long time. And it 889 00:41:52,066 --> 00:41:54,594 does impact you because you need to see 890 00:41:54,594 --> 00:41:56,626 your person, at least one, obviously more 891 00:41:56,626 --> 00:41:58,946 than one, is helpful. But so many women 892 00:41:58,946 --> 00:42:00,446 are really the ones breaking the glass 893 00:42:00,446 --> 00:42:01,666 ceiling, blazing the trail. And we need 894 00:42:01,666 --> 00:42:03,446 male allies to come along and support us 895 00:42:03,446 --> 00:42:06,006 and be aware that we haven't had the wind 896 00:42:06,006 --> 00:42:08,294 at our back. And it does affect us and it 897 00:42:08,294 --> 00:42:10,034 does affect the bias we all have, 898 00:42:10,034 --> 00:42:11,386 ourselves included. Sometimes, like you 899 00:42:11,386 --> 00:42:13,914 said, it's women also making it harder on 900 00:42:13,914 --> 00:42:17,146 other women. It's not just men, right? All 901 00:42:17,146 --> 00:42:19,818 of us have the ability to open doors for 902 00:42:19,818 --> 00:42:22,054 people, make things easier or make it 903 00:42:22,054 --> 00:42:23,386 harder. So thank you for your insights 904 00:42:23,386 --> 00:42:25,070 today. I really appreciate your 905 00:42:25,070 --> 00:42:28,126 perspective. We are going to let you hang 906 00:42:28,126 --> 00:42:29,758 out with our Patreon supporters, and I'm 907 00:42:29,758 --> 00:42:32,446 going to ask you another question related 908 00:42:32,446 --> 00:42:34,254 to just living in Israel during a time 909 00:42:34,254 --> 00:42:35,982 when the world is watching everything 910 00:42:35,982 --> 00:42:37,434 happening there. I just want to get your 911 00:42:37,434 --> 00:42:40,754 perspective on that as somebody who's from 912 00:42:40,754 --> 00:42:42,194 there and living there and just want to 913 00:42:42,194 --> 00:42:44,318 hear your thoughts about the situation. So 914 00:42:44,318 --> 00:42:45,886 we'll let you do that with our Patreon 915 00:42:45,886 --> 00:42:47,874 supporters. But for now, thank you for 916 00:42:47,874 --> 00:42:50,014 being on the podcast today. Thank you for 917 00:42:50,014 --> 00:42:51,818 sharing your perspective and your 918 00:42:51,818 --> 00:42:53,222 insights, for making a difference in the 919 00:42:53,222 --> 00:42:55,462 ways that you are. And I do hope that your 920 00:42:55,462 --> 00:42:57,462 work produces the fruit you're looking 921 00:42:57,462 --> 00:42:59,186 for, where women are getting to the C 922 00:42:59,186 --> 00:43:00,706 suite to be those kind of leaders that 923 00:43:00,706 --> 00:43:03,402 you're dreaming of and inspiring them to. 924 00:43:03,402 --> 00:43:05,466 Thanks for being on today. Lee Moore, 925 00:43:05,466 --> 00:43:07,418 thank you so much for having me. It's been 926 00:43:07,418 --> 00:43:10,314 a true pleasure speaking with you today. 927 00:43:10,314 --> 00:43:14,438 You too. I hope you enjoyed that 928 00:43:14,438 --> 00:43:16,106 conversation as much as I did. I learned 929 00:43:16,106 --> 00:43:19,406 so much from Leymore, and she hangs around 930 00:43:19,406 --> 00:43:21,774 and talks to us in our Patreon group 931 00:43:21,774 --> 00:43:23,406 called difference Makers. So if you've not 932 00:43:23,406 --> 00:43:25,118 yet joined that community, this would be 933 00:43:25,118 --> 00:43:27,118 the day to do so because I ask her about 934 00:43:27,118 --> 00:43:30,066 what it's like to be living in Israel 935 00:43:30,066 --> 00:43:31,438 during the midst of all this conflict 936 00:43:31,438 --> 00:43:33,342 that's going on. And she gives us her 937 00:43:33,342 --> 00:43:35,346 perspective on what that's like and gives 938 00:43:35,346 --> 00:43:37,374 a very strong appeal for her own 939 00:43:37,374 --> 00:43:39,870 perspective on how we can be helpful. So I 940 00:43:39,870 --> 00:43:41,414 know many of you are trying to figure out 941 00:43:41,414 --> 00:43:42,966 ways you can be helpful in this situation. 942 00:43:42,966 --> 00:43:44,294 And just hearing her perspective was 943 00:43:44,294 --> 00:43:48,182 really great. And just also, it's always 944 00:43:48,182 --> 00:43:51,042 good to think through if that's something 945 00:43:51,042 --> 00:43:53,106 that's triggering for you in any way. So 946 00:43:53,106 --> 00:43:54,618 trigger warning if you've been in part of 947 00:43:54,618 --> 00:43:57,210 a conflict zone or currently are in one, 948 00:43:57,210 --> 00:43:58,794 because some of the things she talks about 949 00:43:58,794 --> 00:44:00,634 might be a little bit triggering. But do 950 00:44:00,634 --> 00:44:02,254 stop by on the difference maker 951 00:44:02,254 --> 00:44:04,910 Community@patreon.com. A world of 952 00:44:04,910 --> 00:44:07,966 difference to check it out. And as always, 953 00:44:07,966 --> 00:44:11,998 this podcast episode is sponsored by 954 00:44:11,998 --> 00:44:14,734 BetterHelp.com difference. And I have very 955 00:44:14,734 --> 00:44:16,494 much benefited from working with a 956 00:44:16,494 --> 00:44:17,854 therapist there and all the different 957 00:44:17,854 --> 00:44:21,854 tools of how to get ourselves through 958 00:44:21,854 --> 00:44:24,594 traumatic situations. Speaking of trauma, 959 00:44:24,594 --> 00:44:26,174 but if you've been in a traumatic 960 00:44:26,174 --> 00:44:28,306 workplace or you've had relationships that 961 00:44:28,306 --> 00:44:31,266 have been traumatic for you, or you are 962 00:44:31,266 --> 00:44:32,566 walking through anything right now that 963 00:44:32,566 --> 00:44:34,306 you just feel like you need some 964 00:44:34,306 --> 00:44:36,326 professional help, I really encourage you 965 00:44:36,326 --> 00:44:41,254 to go to WW dot betterhelp.com difference 966 00:44:41,254 --> 00:44:44,474 and get 10% off your first month. It's 967 00:44:44,474 --> 00:44:46,602 once again been so helpful for me and so I 968 00:44:46,602 --> 00:44:48,858 recommend it to you. So yeah, check them 969 00:44:48,858 --> 00:44:52,540 out and you can also find classes and 970 00:44:52,540 --> 00:44:55,238 different places to go and to be into 971 00:44:55,238 --> 00:44:57,066 groups of people if that's going to be 972 00:44:57,066 --> 00:44:59,226 helpful for you. But also just one on one 973 00:44:59,226 --> 00:45:01,434 therapy and if you decide you want to 974 00:45:01,434 --> 00:45:03,390 switch, they make it really easy. Yeah, go 975 00:45:03,390 --> 00:45:06,546 to www.betterhelp.com difference today to 976 00:45:06,546 --> 00:45:09,042 get 10% off your first month. And as 977 00:45:09,042 --> 00:45:11,762 always, wherever you are around the world, 978 00:45:11,762 --> 00:45:14,194 stay safe. Especially if you're listening 979 00:45:14,194 --> 00:45:16,914 in from the conflict going on in the 980 00:45:16,914 --> 00:45:19,320 Middle east right now. I know it's very 981 00:45:19,320 --> 00:45:22,022 difficult, all of you that are doing great 982 00:45:22,022 --> 00:45:24,390 work there and risking your lives to help 983 00:45:24,390 --> 00:45:27,622 others. And it's a situation we're all 984 00:45:27,622 --> 00:45:30,438 paying attention to and just grieved and 985 00:45:30,438 --> 00:45:32,810 heartbroken and hoping that peace can come 986 00:45:32,810 --> 00:45:36,186 soon in that area for everyone's sake and 987 00:45:36,186 --> 00:45:38,540 that people can live and flourish in that 988 00:45:38,540 --> 00:45:42,442 area simultaneously, side by side with all 989 00:45:42,442 --> 00:45:44,134 different diversity of thought and 990 00:45:44,134 --> 00:45:46,830 cultures and languages and faith 991 00:45:46,830 --> 00:45:49,086 expressions. So yeah, we are sending you 992 00:45:49,086 --> 00:45:51,166 so much love. If you're there and wherever 993 00:45:51,166 --> 00:45:52,894 you are in the world, I know many of you 994 00:45:52,894 --> 00:45:54,830 are doing incredible things to make a 995 00:45:54,830 --> 00:45:56,794 difference. So let us know how this 996 00:45:56,794 --> 00:45:58,894 episode resonated with you. If you work in 997 00:45:58,894 --> 00:46:01,806 Silicon Valley, in tech, if you live in 998 00:46:01,806 --> 00:46:03,022 anywhere in the world, if you're in 999 00:46:03,022 --> 00:46:04,690 Singapore listening to this and work in 1000 00:46:04,690 --> 00:46:07,026 tech or in any kind of corporate space and 1001 00:46:07,026 --> 00:46:09,794 you want to reach out to Lee Moore for 1002 00:46:09,794 --> 00:46:13,218 more tips, you can find her on LinkedIn 1003 00:46:13,218 --> 00:46:15,106 and a few other spaces and I'm going to 1004 00:46:15,106 --> 00:46:16,466 link all her information in the show notes 1005 00:46:16,466 --> 00:46:18,446 so you can make sure and find her anyway. 1006 00:46:18,446 --> 00:46:20,460 Wherever you are in world, keep making a
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