Transcript
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Welcome to the a World of Difference
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podcast. I'm Lori Adams Brown and this is
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a podcast for those who are different and
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want to make a difference. This podcast is
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sponsored by Betterhelp. If you are a
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person who really wants to understand what
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your strengths are, maybe you're not going
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through anything huge in your life.
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Therapy is not just for those who are in
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crisis, although it's definitely for that.
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But therapy is also a place where you're
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just stepping into your own skin, figuring
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out who you are, what it is you're
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offering to the world around us, and how
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you're making the world a better place.
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Betterhelp is here to help you with that,
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and I have really benefited by deep work,
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understanding myself a little bit better.
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And I know many people have benefited from
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this resource, and that's why I'm proud to
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say they are a sponsor of this podcast. So
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if you are a person who could benefit from
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talking with a professional about anything
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going on in your life, I encourage you to
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stop by at Betterhelp. And the link I'm
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offering you today will give you 10% off
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and wallet and bank account. So go to
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www.betterhelp.com difference today to get
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10% off your first month of therapy. That
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is www.betterhelp.com difference to get
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10% off your first month today. Today on
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the show from Melbourne, Australia, we
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have Bessie Graham on the show. Bessie is
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an award winning entrepreneur with over 20
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years experience of working with business
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owners, with governments and large funding
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bodies to bring doing good and making
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money back together. From grassroots of
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sitting in the dirt, working with business
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owners in the Pacific Islands to the
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United nations headquarters in Geneva,
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Bessie has seen it all and brings an
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unparalleled perspective on what it means
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to make things happen and change. So
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working with people who have quote unquote
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made it but haven't found fulfillment, she
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really helps them put their time, talent
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and treasure to work in ways that align
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with their values and allow them to create
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a legacy they can really be proud of.
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Bessie teaches people to quiet the noise
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of the demands and opinions of others that
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are always swirling around leaders in
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business, nonprofit, government. Wherever
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you're leading, you know this is true. And
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she wants to help people hear their own
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voice more clearly so they can contribute.
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From a place of authenticity. She removes
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the frustration and pressure that comes
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from living someone else's idea of success
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and really replaces it with a sense of
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flow and fulfillment that can only come
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when you tap into the fulfillment of who
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you are and who you are becoming. I'm so
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excited to have this conversation with
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Bessie today. So welcome to the show.
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Bessie Graham. Hi, Bessie. A warm welcome
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to you today in Melbourne, Australia.
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Thanks for joining us. Thank you. I'm glad
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that we could make the time zones work. I
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am, too, and Melbourne held a special
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place in my heart because I got to visit
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there years ago, and we were just talking
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about how it's so diverse, and I love that
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it's got great coffee. I saw Taylor Swift
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has been there, so it's all over
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everybody's feed. Oh, yeah. Biggest
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concert she's ever had. I saw that. Yeah.
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I got to take my daughter for her 16th
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birthday trip to Rio to see Taylor Swift.
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We were going to do a birthday trip
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anyway, and so it was cheaper to take her
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all the way to Rio than it was to see her
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20 minutes away at Levi Stadium because
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the tickets here were insane. It was like
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$800 for the nosebleed or like $20,000 for
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the front row. Oh, my. So it was actually
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cheaper to do $200 front row tickets in
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Rio and just use airline and hotel points,
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and we had a blast. Amazing. A lot of fun.
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You've created a memory. Yeah, absolutely.
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No, we keep seeing all the swifties having
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fun there in Melbourne, so it does make me
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want to take another trip there. Well, I'm
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excited to talk to you today because
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occasionally you come across these people
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who understand what it really means to
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work in business in a way to where it can
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be something of a purpose and not just
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making profit, although there's nothing
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wrong with making profit. Everybody's got
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to pay the bills, take care of their
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family. I mean, that's just what it means
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to live this human life. But you've got a
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couple of decades of experience in sort of
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bridging this gap between profit and
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purpose. So I'd love for you to kind of
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share. Is there, like, a moment or an
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experience that sort of initially ignited
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your passions for sort of this doing good
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and making money together? It's
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interesting because when you use words
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like purpose or meaning, any of those
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types of aspects, I would say that for me,
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it goes right back to being a kid in that
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there was always this sense in me of not
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fitting into neat little boxes or what the
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expectations were. I was not one neat
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thing. I used to always say, even when I
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was a kid, that I was a walking
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contradiction. I would have really
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different parts of myself that felt
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equally true and that other people might
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find confusing. And so in finding this
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world of being able to, through my career,
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do what I talk about as merging money and
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meaning, or helping people do good and
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make money, that allowed me to feel like I
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could bring that fullness of those
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different parts of myself. And so it's
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been ever present in my adult life and
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career. But I would say that it's the
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outworking of me just being me, which is a
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beautiful opportunity. And to have found
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that piece, which really does, I think,
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allow you to sustain something, because
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when you're trying to do something that's
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at ods or where there's some internal
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dissonance for you, you might be able to
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do it for a while through sheer force of
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will, but you end up getting exhausted and
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worn down. Yeah, I think when somebody
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brings their full, authentic self to their
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career, it's a whole different way of
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leading and living. And so one of the
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themes of our podcast is bringing our
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differences around the table, making sure
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we know each of us has unique differences.
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That's what it means to be human. And so I
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know that your career has taken know
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outside of Australia, you've done some
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pretty incredible things in your career.
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And so I'd love to know how that sort of
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informed you as a leader and the work that
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you do. What kind of an impact did living
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abroad have on your career and yourself?
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Yeah, so I would say that a little bit
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like you, having experienced different
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cultures, helps to have that bigger, more
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expansive idea of what the world is and
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different perspectives, and to not be sort
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of sheltered or exist in such a way that
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your assumptions are that everyone thinks
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the same way, everyone experiences
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situations in the same way. And that began
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for me, more from a childhood perspective,
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related to the issues around social
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justice. So my mum in particular always
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opened our eyes to the fact that you
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shouldn't compare yourself to the people
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directly around you, but to the people in
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the rest of the world. So even though
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within our circles we would have been the
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people with the least money, she would
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constantly say to us, if you have running
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water and electricity, you are within the
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wealthiest people in the world. So have
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some perspective. Right? So she was always
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opening, there's nothing wrong with
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looking around and comparing. In fact, it
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can give you perspective, but you need to
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be quite intentional about who you're
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comparing yourself to so that that kind of
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occurs. So there was always that curiosity
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and I suppose the expansive aspect of
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others perspectives. I then had the
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beautiful opportunity of, when I finished
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high school, I said I was going to take
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one year off to travel. I ended up not
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going to university till four years after
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and did lots of traveling, went to a whole
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bunch of different countries. And that set
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in motion, I suppose, the perspective that
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now, no matter what happens or who I work
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with or what you see on the news, I know
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people in it would now be about 62
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different countries that I have people who
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I genuinely know and care about, and that
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connects you to the world in a different
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way. And that, I think, is one of the
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pieces that certainly in your work, in my
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work, it helps us when we work with
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leaders to get them to do the zooming out
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and zooming in. They're like, take a
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different perspective, think about this
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from a different angle. So that sort of
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has been consistently something I very
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consciously make sure is part of my work,
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because like you, I have a deep respect
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for diversity. Not in a token way, and not
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trying to tick a box and kind of say, oh,
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who's not in this conversation? And we
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need to fill certain categories, but
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simply from the perspective of it is the
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way that we will. If we have people with
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different experiences of life, different
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ways they look at things, it's a much
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broader conversation than just gender.
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It's a much broader conversation than
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religion. It's about our ways of looking
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at the world and who we are. I want as
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many of those voices in a conversation as
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possible. Yeah, absolutely. It does make
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us better as leaders. We make better
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decisions, especially if in business, we
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have a product that we want to make
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available to people globally. We want
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perspectives on how is that product going
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to land in Melbourne, Australia, versus
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somewhere in Africa versus somewhere in
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the United States. All of those
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perspectives matter. But also, business
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doesn't have to just be where we treat
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people like factory workers. We do have
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factories that produce products, but we
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don't have to treat the people that way
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like cogs in a wheel. And so what are some
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ways that leadership can be a little more
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human and take into account purpose, even
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inside the workplace for people? I think a
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lot of it comes back to the role that a
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leader needs to take seriously themselves,
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of being able to pause long enough to
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start to unpack or maybe bring to the
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surface some of those unconscious beliefs
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they actually have about the purpose of
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business. Because so many people, if you
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were just in a conversation, it was on the
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weekend, and you were all at an event
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together, they might, on the surface,
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straight away say, yeah, I totally agree
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with you. Business is far more than just
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making money. So they might, at the
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surface level, be excited and say they
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agree with you. But when you dig a little
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deeper into the way people are making
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decisions, how they're spending money,
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what they're prioritizing, there is this
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deep unconscious belief that has taken
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hold, particularly since the 70s when
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Friedman brought in this idea of
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shareholder primacy. So the maximization
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of profit started to be spoken about as if
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it was the law. It was always true and
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always would be, and yet it actually
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wasn't. It's not the roots of business.
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It's not commerce, trade, bartering. These
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are deeply human things that we have
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always done. But what I find is the first
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step for us as leaders is to actually
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start to uncover where is there a
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disconnect that actually my behavior, my
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priorities, my decision making is
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demonstrating that I do actually at least
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have a part of me that thinks business is
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about how do I make as much money as
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possible and treat a whole bunch of
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uncomfortable things or expensive things
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as an externality and not the problem of
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the business. And once we start there with
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that mindset piece and the beliefs about
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the purpose of business, then a whole
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bunch of other conversations can happen.
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But unless we start with that piece, we're
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never really having the same conversation
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because you can do a whole lot of work
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with a leader in their business, and then
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a particularly important decision or a
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difficult situation will emerge and
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suddenly I'll hear people saying things
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like, well, that's lovely, Bessie, but I
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am running a business here, not a charity.
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So we're going to have to put that on
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pause and get back to it. When things go
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back to normal or when things calm down,
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those types of comments demonstrate to me
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that you're still seeing the contribution
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or the meaning side as being a nice to
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have when times are good and when you have
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excess cash or time in the business and it
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hasn't actually been integrated into how
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you think about the decisions you're
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making in those core business. Good. You
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know, one of the things I train on in
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leadership summits that I conduct in the
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company that I work for here in Silicon
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Valley, and I go all around the world, the
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UK, I'm about to head to Taiwan and
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wherever people are in the world, it's the
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same. When we're listening to people,
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whether it's our direct reports, our
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peers, our boss, our family members, we're
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usually listening for three things, and
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that's facts, feelings and values. And
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you're talking a lot about values and how
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those impact business leaders and
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decisions that people make. It's something
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we don't think about. We don't even
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consciously often think about our values,
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and we often don't say them out loud. But
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listening for what motivates people in
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business or in social enterprise is really
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important, because just like you said,
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when it comes down to making hard
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decisions, people will make those based on
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their values. So for you and for others
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that you work with, how do your values
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influence the way you live and make
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decisions as a leader in business? And how
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do you encourage people to do that as
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well? So, for me, they massively
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influence. And when I work with people,
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I'm always trying to get them to a place
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where they are a massive influence in
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their life. Because again, it's these
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making something conscious, making
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something explicit that is already driving
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behavior. Often you just aren't aware of
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where that's coming from. So, values is a
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conversation, particularly in business
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settings, that is often done in such a
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superficial way that leaders will roll
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their eyes. When you say you want to have
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a conversation about values, they think,
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oh my goodness, this is going to be
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another one of those completely
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meaningless things where there's a poster
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on the wall. My favorite ones are always
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the integrity, honesty and the eagle on
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those types of ideas. And so we need to do
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some unlearning there of, okay, people
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have been talking about something like
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values in a way that didn't actually have
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the depth to it. When you and I are
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talking about it in relation to this
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question and how it's actually informing
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your decisions, how it is influencing the
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way you live, that is, values done in a
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far more meaningful or nuanced way. And so
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I always think about values from the
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perspective of Simon Sinek talked about
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that our values are who we are at our
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natural best. And I think that that is
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true. But I think that's only the starting
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place in particularly the last two and a
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bit decades. The way that I have made
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values really central in my life and in my
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work is to realize that actually by
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getting clear on what our core values are
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and then very intentionally cultivating
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what are the conditions that allow me to
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live those things out. How do I need to
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set up my environment or my relationships,
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or the time I create to be able to live in
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that space? That then means I can show up
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at my natural best, because all of those
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aspects around the environments we're
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creating, those conditions we cultivate
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for ourself, set us up to either be able
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to live in alignment with those values or
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not. So I think there's a really rich,
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much longer conversation than we can have
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today about how we identify those things
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and really name them, but they have to be
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aspects that do speak to how we behave. So
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there needs to be action related to them.
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They need to inform our decisions. And I
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think when we get really clear on those
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and always have them top of mind, they
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become one of the filters we use in our
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decision making to be able to go, is this
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in alignment or is it not? Because most of
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the time when I see leaders getting
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exhausted and overwhelmed, particularly
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now, and you would see this in your work
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with the fast paced changes that we're all
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having to deal with, if you don't have
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some kind of touchstone or guide to come
401
00:17:42,766 --> 00:17:47,474
back to that actually says, yes, this sits
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00:17:47,474 --> 00:17:49,186
well with me. This is in alignment with
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00:17:49,186 --> 00:17:52,194
who we are as an organization. You can
404
00:17:52,194 --> 00:17:54,722
talk about integrity and alignment all you
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want, but if you haven't actually
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articulated. Align to what? Moving towards
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00:18:01,030 --> 00:18:03,846
what? That clarity is the starting place.
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00:18:03,846 --> 00:18:07,442
So I think at our own peril, we ignore or
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00:18:07,442 --> 00:18:10,646
make simplistic lists of what our
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company's core values are. It's a much
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00:18:13,354 --> 00:18:16,938
more powerful conversation. Absolutely.
412
00:18:16,938 --> 00:18:19,786
Yeah. And some companies will do even a
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really great job, like you said, having it
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on the wall, making it visible on their
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website, having it constantly stated in
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00:18:27,822 --> 00:18:30,106
certain meetings, but it really kind of
417
00:18:30,106 --> 00:18:34,398
falls apart if they mention one of their
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00:18:34,398 --> 00:18:37,858
values is maybe inclusion, and then at the
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end of the day, they're doing nothing in
420
00:18:40,478 --> 00:18:44,338
recruiting to make sure job requests are
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00:18:44,338 --> 00:18:46,082
going to appeal to somebody who's
422
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different than everybody they have, or
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there's favoritism still in the process,
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or everybody hires people they know from
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the same university where you get this
426
00:18:55,446 --> 00:18:57,974
kind of group think. And so you can say
427
00:18:57,974 --> 00:18:59,722
you value that, but at the end of the day,
428
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if decisions aren't made based on it, it
429
00:19:02,966 --> 00:19:05,420
doesn't really change. So kind of help us
430
00:19:05,420 --> 00:19:08,726
understand maybe sort of this decision
431
00:19:08,726 --> 00:19:11,142
cascade, how it can unlock clarity and
432
00:19:11,142 --> 00:19:14,986
decisiveness, maybe even around values. So
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00:19:14,986 --> 00:19:17,614
what's interesting, if people wanted to
434
00:19:17,614 --> 00:19:19,486
dig into what you were just speaking about
435
00:19:19,486 --> 00:19:21,594
a little bit more, the best author that
436
00:19:21,594 --> 00:19:23,886
I've always really loved reading around
437
00:19:23,886 --> 00:19:26,610
this topic is Patrick Lenchoni, and in his
438
00:19:26,610 --> 00:19:29,682
book, the advantage, he talks about four
439
00:19:29,682 --> 00:19:31,566
different types of values. And some of the
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00:19:31,566 --> 00:19:32,994
pieces that you've spoken about there that
441
00:19:32,994 --> 00:19:37,326
can end up undermining our authority or
442
00:19:37,326 --> 00:19:39,554
people's respect or trust in us as a
443
00:19:39,554 --> 00:19:41,878
leader is when we take something that is
444
00:19:41,878 --> 00:19:44,246
what he would call an aspirational value,
445
00:19:44,246 --> 00:19:46,662
we might know that we need that as a
446
00:19:46,662 --> 00:19:49,478
company to succeed in the future, or we
447
00:19:49,478 --> 00:19:51,594
might want that to be part of our culture
448
00:19:51,594 --> 00:19:55,034
and we call it a core value, we name it as
449
00:19:55,034 --> 00:19:57,786
that. But there's this disconnect for our
450
00:19:57,786 --> 00:20:01,334
customers or our team where they're, hmm.
451
00:20:01,334 --> 00:20:03,674
Bessie's saying this, but every
452
00:20:03,674 --> 00:20:05,966
interaction I have, my experience with her
453
00:20:05,966 --> 00:20:08,414
or this company is actually the opposite.
454
00:20:08,414 --> 00:20:10,526
And now, even if I'm not conscious of it,
455
00:20:10,526 --> 00:20:13,306
I start to mistrust her because I'm
456
00:20:13,306 --> 00:20:16,238
hearing one thing and seeing another. And
457
00:20:16,238 --> 00:20:18,914
so reading some of Lent, Joni's work, and
458
00:20:18,914 --> 00:20:20,686
even if people don't want to get the book,
459
00:20:20,686 --> 00:20:22,514
there's a Harvard Business Review article.
460
00:20:22,514 --> 00:20:24,146
Maybe I'll share the links with you and
461
00:20:24,146 --> 00:20:26,386
you can pop it in the notes. But that's a
462
00:20:26,386 --> 00:20:28,206
good place for people to start to pull
463
00:20:28,206 --> 00:20:30,966
apart some of these things, because we
464
00:20:30,966 --> 00:20:32,454
need to have tools, whether it's something
465
00:20:32,454 --> 00:20:34,066
like you've mentioned, the decision
466
00:20:34,066 --> 00:20:36,406
cascade, which my partner and I created
467
00:20:36,406 --> 00:20:38,386
and have been using for decades, or
468
00:20:38,386 --> 00:20:40,410
whether it's some frameworks around
469
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different types of values as leaders,
470
00:20:43,802 --> 00:20:46,006
these types of tools. So in ancient
471
00:20:46,006 --> 00:20:47,782
Greece, they always talked about them as
472
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heuristics. So thinking tools, when we
473
00:20:50,234 --> 00:20:53,454
have these to call on, it allows us to be
474
00:20:53,454 --> 00:20:55,326
more effective in our leadership, because
475
00:20:55,326 --> 00:20:58,206
on the fly, when a situation happens, you
476
00:20:58,206 --> 00:21:00,974
have a preformed structure in your mind of
477
00:21:00,974 --> 00:21:04,254
how to walk through that. So from decision
478
00:21:04,254 --> 00:21:05,826
making and when it comes to something like
479
00:21:05,826 --> 00:21:09,794
a decision cascade sequence is important.
480
00:21:09,794 --> 00:21:12,782
And what I see myself doing and other
481
00:21:12,782 --> 00:21:15,300
leaders is we're the types of people who
482
00:21:15,300 --> 00:21:18,466
are. Our tendency is toward action. So we
483
00:21:18,466 --> 00:21:20,918
want to jump in. We see an opportunity. We
484
00:21:20,918 --> 00:21:22,486
want to jump in and build. We want to jump
485
00:21:22,486 --> 00:21:26,514
in and act. Part of what we do by using a
486
00:21:26,514 --> 00:21:28,714
decision cascade is to actually start to
487
00:21:28,714 --> 00:21:32,442
pull a situation or an opportunity apart
488
00:21:32,442 --> 00:21:35,306
and make a very conscious decision of what
489
00:21:35,306 --> 00:21:38,214
is the first step. So what's that first
490
00:21:38,214 --> 00:21:40,362
overarching decision that everything else
491
00:21:40,362 --> 00:21:43,806
needs to flow from that. And then once you
492
00:21:43,806 --> 00:21:45,966
go, okay, this is the primary decision.
493
00:21:45,966 --> 00:21:48,158
This is the secondary level of decisions
494
00:21:48,158 --> 00:21:51,582
and the tertiary decisions. What you are
495
00:21:51,582 --> 00:21:54,266
able to do from a leadership perspective
496
00:21:54,266 --> 00:21:57,794
is have a far smoother experience through
497
00:21:57,794 --> 00:22:00,034
your decision making. And also, when
498
00:22:00,034 --> 00:22:02,526
things aren't going well, you know how to
499
00:22:02,526 --> 00:22:04,498
unpack it and figure out where is the
500
00:22:04,498 --> 00:22:07,214
problem occurring. Rather than just being
501
00:22:07,214 --> 00:22:08,454
reactionary and going right, the whole
502
00:22:08,454 --> 00:22:10,722
thing doesn't work. We have to start from
503
00:22:10,722 --> 00:22:13,622
scratch. So I'll sort of give you a quick
504
00:22:13,622 --> 00:22:16,360
example through that. Part of what happens
505
00:22:16,360 --> 00:22:19,626
is if we as a business, have an
506
00:22:19,626 --> 00:22:21,706
opportunity to go into a new location, and
507
00:22:21,706 --> 00:22:24,566
we just jump straight into saying, great,
508
00:22:24,566 --> 00:22:27,820
we've got this opportunity to set up an
509
00:22:27,820 --> 00:22:30,602
office. I think you mentioned Indonesia
510
00:22:30,602 --> 00:22:32,746
before. So let's say we're going to go to
511
00:22:32,746 --> 00:22:35,374
Indonesia and we suddenly start to look
512
00:22:35,374 --> 00:22:38,366
for real estate and we've signed a lease
513
00:22:38,366 --> 00:22:42,206
for an office. We have made something that
514
00:22:42,206 --> 00:22:44,838
should have been a tertiary know, three
515
00:22:44,838 --> 00:22:47,534
levels down. We've made that the primary
516
00:22:47,534 --> 00:22:49,362
decision because we've now created all
517
00:22:49,362 --> 00:22:51,774
these constraints because we've signed a
518
00:22:51,774 --> 00:22:53,714
lease for a certain period of time in a
519
00:22:53,714 --> 00:22:56,914
very specific location without the other
520
00:22:56,914 --> 00:22:59,880
pieces being in place. And so from that
521
00:22:59,880 --> 00:23:03,062
place, a whole bunch of decisions are no
522
00:23:03,062 --> 00:23:06,294
longer open to us and we have restricted
523
00:23:06,294 --> 00:23:08,834
what can come from there without having to
524
00:23:08,834 --> 00:23:11,570
undo a lot of things. The decision cascade
525
00:23:11,570 --> 00:23:14,154
is that piece that allows us to go back to
526
00:23:14,154 --> 00:23:15,946
something like our core values or back to
527
00:23:15,946 --> 00:23:17,930
our vision statement as an organization.
528
00:23:17,930 --> 00:23:20,954
And, ah, an opportunity's opened up, we
529
00:23:20,954 --> 00:23:23,066
could expand into Indonesia. What are the
530
00:23:23,066 --> 00:23:24,670
things we've been talking about as a
531
00:23:24,670 --> 00:23:27,438
company? What are our core values? If, for
532
00:23:27,438 --> 00:23:29,546
example, your team have been saying that
533
00:23:29,546 --> 00:23:31,306
you've been growing too fast and people
534
00:23:31,306 --> 00:23:32,926
aren't seeing their families enough and
535
00:23:32,926 --> 00:23:35,538
they want to travel less, you might need
536
00:23:35,538 --> 00:23:37,586
to have a conversation that says, while
537
00:23:37,586 --> 00:23:39,746
this is exciting, now is not the time for
538
00:23:39,746 --> 00:23:43,620
us to expand geographically. So this type
539
00:23:43,620 --> 00:23:48,294
of way of approaching your decisions is a
540
00:23:48,294 --> 00:23:51,954
much more helpful way, as I said, to not
541
00:23:51,954 --> 00:23:55,154
charge down a course and end up putting
542
00:23:55,154 --> 00:23:56,786
yourselves in positions you could have
543
00:23:56,786 --> 00:24:00,842
avoided simply by thinking differently.
544
00:24:00,842 --> 00:24:04,266
So, good. Yeah. There's this, like saying,
545
00:24:04,266 --> 00:24:06,166
I hear some Americans say it's getting the
546
00:24:06,166 --> 00:24:10,182
cart before the horse. Yes. It's just the
547
00:24:10,182 --> 00:24:12,474
priorities. You got to start with the main
548
00:24:12,474 --> 00:24:13,946
idea, like, what are we about here? And
549
00:24:13,946 --> 00:24:15,374
that's what you're leading people to,
550
00:24:15,374 --> 00:24:17,886
whether it's in business or nonprofit. Why
551
00:24:17,886 --> 00:24:20,302
are you making these decisions and not
552
00:24:20,302 --> 00:24:22,894
just having. Well, that could happen, but
553
00:24:22,894 --> 00:24:24,834
just because I tell my teenager, just
554
00:24:24,834 --> 00:24:27,682
because you can, doesn't mean you should,
555
00:24:27,682 --> 00:24:30,306
right, exactly. Yeah, you've worked. Even
556
00:24:30,306 --> 00:24:32,706
if you pause and you say no, it doesn't
557
00:24:32,706 --> 00:24:34,882
mean you're saying no forever. It just
558
00:24:34,882 --> 00:24:39,254
means not now. Totally no, 100%. You've
559
00:24:39,254 --> 00:24:40,818
worked, though, not just in Australia,
560
00:24:40,818 --> 00:24:42,518
you've worked in some other places, kind
561
00:24:42,518 --> 00:24:44,694
of more on a grassroots level, also kind
562
00:24:44,694 --> 00:24:48,758
of more prestigious. Know where you were
563
00:24:48,758 --> 00:24:51,066
with the United Nations a bit. And so I'd
564
00:24:51,066 --> 00:24:54,150
love to know some of the common
565
00:24:54,150 --> 00:24:55,818
misconceptions maybe that you find around
566
00:24:55,818 --> 00:24:57,686
kind of social entrepreneurship that
567
00:24:57,686 --> 00:24:59,126
you've encountered in these different
568
00:24:59,126 --> 00:25:03,030
kinds of settings. Yeah. So I've very
569
00:25:03,030 --> 00:25:05,442
intentionally always gone to both of those
570
00:25:05,442 --> 00:25:08,094
extremes. I like to work at the level of
571
00:25:08,094 --> 00:25:10,282
looking at the whole system. So big
572
00:25:10,282 --> 00:25:11,566
international funders as you mentioned,
573
00:25:11,566 --> 00:25:14,094
like the United nations or I do a lot of
574
00:25:14,094 --> 00:25:17,554
advisory work with government. That piece
575
00:25:17,554 --> 00:25:20,098
is important and I think often missed in
576
00:25:20,098 --> 00:25:22,062
the world of something like social
577
00:25:22,062 --> 00:25:25,626
entrepreneurship or nonprofits, where it
578
00:25:25,626 --> 00:25:29,702
stays grassroots and often fails to look
579
00:25:29,702 --> 00:25:32,134
up at that broader system and understand,
580
00:25:32,134 --> 00:25:33,446
okay, what are the constraints, what are
581
00:25:33,446 --> 00:25:35,314
the opportunities, what's happening,
582
00:25:35,314 --> 00:25:38,634
what's our part within the system? And so
583
00:25:38,634 --> 00:25:40,922
for me, it's an intentional decision to
584
00:25:40,922 --> 00:25:43,670
always be someone who bridges those two
585
00:25:43,670 --> 00:25:46,794
worlds. I don't want to just be systemic
586
00:25:46,794 --> 00:25:50,154
and big picture and lose touch with what's
587
00:25:50,154 --> 00:25:51,326
actually happening on the ground and what
588
00:25:51,326 --> 00:25:54,334
the reality is. So I always talk to people
589
00:25:54,334 --> 00:25:58,814
about, I'm very conscious of making sure I
590
00:25:58,814 --> 00:26:01,726
have enough interactions, one on one, with
591
00:26:01,726 --> 00:26:04,026
individual founders, or one of the pieces
592
00:26:04,026 --> 00:26:06,706
that's often in my bio that is important
593
00:26:06,706 --> 00:26:08,734
to me is that I've spent a lot of time
594
00:26:08,734 --> 00:26:11,470
sitting in the dirt across the Pacific
595
00:26:11,470 --> 00:26:13,346
islands, whether it's with coconut farmers
596
00:26:13,346 --> 00:26:15,474
or on coffee plantations or whatever that
597
00:26:15,474 --> 00:26:19,174
piece is. That means when I'm then acting
598
00:26:19,174 --> 00:26:21,506
as an impact investor, or I have my
599
00:26:21,506 --> 00:26:22,870
philanthropic hat on, or I'm doing
600
00:26:22,870 --> 00:26:25,654
government advisory work, while someone
601
00:26:25,654 --> 00:26:28,102
else might be talking academically about
602
00:26:28,102 --> 00:26:31,066
how something happens, I can say, well,
603
00:26:31,066 --> 00:26:32,758
actually, when I was in the back of a
604
00:26:32,758 --> 00:26:36,394
truck traveling from the farm to the port,
605
00:26:36,394 --> 00:26:38,246
I know that these are the challenges
606
00:26:38,246 --> 00:26:41,674
someone's seeing. So I would say, in
607
00:26:41,674 --> 00:26:43,422
answer to your question, sort of some of
608
00:26:43,422 --> 00:26:46,062
those patterns that I think are really
609
00:26:46,062 --> 00:26:50,042
important for all of us as leaders to push
610
00:26:50,042 --> 00:26:52,094
ourselves outside our comfort zones and
611
00:26:52,094 --> 00:26:56,034
really ensure we work into the way we lead
612
00:26:56,034 --> 00:26:58,094
is to not get into, you mentioned
613
00:26:58,094 --> 00:27:01,250
groupthink before, to not just sit in such
614
00:27:01,250 --> 00:27:02,926
small, closed circles where everyone
615
00:27:02,926 --> 00:27:04,862
thinks the same way or has the same
616
00:27:04,862 --> 00:27:06,966
perspective, but to actively put ourselves
617
00:27:06,966 --> 00:27:10,966
in situations where we say, interesting.
618
00:27:10,966 --> 00:27:12,680
Now that I have that little piece of
619
00:27:12,680 --> 00:27:14,902
information, it might seem random at the
620
00:27:14,902 --> 00:27:17,446
moment, but it will come in handy later.
621
00:27:17,446 --> 00:27:20,134
So those types of things have always been
622
00:27:20,134 --> 00:27:22,666
useful for me and then played out, as I
623
00:27:22,666 --> 00:27:25,734
said later, when I've been in a situation
624
00:27:25,734 --> 00:27:29,050
investing in a company, in a country, and
625
00:27:29,050 --> 00:27:31,414
someone will use a certain piece of
626
00:27:31,414 --> 00:27:33,410
evidence to demonstrate social impact. And
627
00:27:33,410 --> 00:27:36,366
I'll say, well, I now know the questions
628
00:27:36,366 --> 00:27:38,494
to ask, because I'll say, so, when you
629
00:27:38,494 --> 00:27:40,702
talk to that farmer, did they actually
630
00:27:40,702 --> 00:27:42,986
speak English? So when you've got this
631
00:27:42,986 --> 00:27:45,234
feedback or you say that they've signed
632
00:27:45,234 --> 00:27:48,686
this and given who signed it and who
633
00:27:48,686 --> 00:27:50,820
explained it or translated it to them,
634
00:27:50,820 --> 00:27:53,922
because I know the questions to ask,
635
00:27:53,922 --> 00:27:56,166
because I understand both the grassroots
636
00:27:56,166 --> 00:27:59,906
and the systemic, and I think as leaders,
637
00:27:59,906 --> 00:28:04,726
we're not paid to just show up and be on
638
00:28:04,726 --> 00:28:07,926
the clock. We're paid for how we think,
639
00:28:07,926 --> 00:28:10,106
how we see the world, what opportunities
640
00:28:10,106 --> 00:28:12,762
do we spot, or where do we see risk that
641
00:28:12,762 --> 00:28:16,202
someone else doesn't see? And the best way
642
00:28:16,202 --> 00:28:20,086
to bring the most value as a leader is to
643
00:28:20,086 --> 00:28:23,194
expand what you understand and how you can
644
00:28:23,194 --> 00:28:24,366
bridge different worlds, because that's
645
00:28:24,366 --> 00:28:26,826
what innovation is. Two previously
646
00:28:26,826 --> 00:28:29,022
unconnected things now connect them.
647
00:28:29,022 --> 00:28:31,674
Something doesn't have to be completely
648
00:28:31,674 --> 00:28:33,566
unique and never thought of before, but
649
00:28:33,566 --> 00:28:35,570
you're wanting to do that, bringing things
650
00:28:35,570 --> 00:28:38,898
together that were not seen. Huh. Imagine
651
00:28:38,898 --> 00:28:42,674
what would happen if we combined those.
652
00:28:42,674 --> 00:28:47,826
So, good. Yeah. It takes me back to my
653
00:28:47,826 --> 00:28:49,718
own. I also had an experience with the UN,
654
00:28:49,718 --> 00:28:51,126
where I worked as sort of a liaison with
655
00:28:51,126 --> 00:28:53,126
them in the indonesian tsunami, because I
656
00:28:53,126 --> 00:28:54,646
was working in community development in
657
00:28:54,646 --> 00:28:57,846
that area when the tsunami hit that. So,
658
00:28:57,846 --> 00:28:59,178
you know, you have people from all over
659
00:28:59,178 --> 00:29:03,014
the world, big ngos coming in, and the
660
00:29:03,014 --> 00:29:07,194
coordination efforts were really just like
661
00:29:07,194 --> 00:29:09,066
a ginormous effort, like I've never seen,
662
00:29:09,066 --> 00:29:10,926
because it was such a large disaster and
663
00:29:10,926 --> 00:29:14,174
had so little infrastructure to begin with
664
00:29:14,174 --> 00:29:17,120
to sustain anything like that kind of
665
00:29:17,120 --> 00:29:19,246
world group of people coming in from all
666
00:29:19,246 --> 00:29:22,766
these places. But the value of that was, I
667
00:29:22,766 --> 00:29:25,758
worked for a grassroots, indonesian based
668
00:29:25,758 --> 00:29:27,890
nonprofit, so I was fluent in the language
669
00:29:27,890 --> 00:29:29,266
and understood the culture because I'd
670
00:29:29,266 --> 00:29:30,866
worked there for a long time, which had
671
00:29:30,866 --> 00:29:34,510
its own dynamics under sharia law. For
672
00:29:34,510 --> 00:29:36,594
westerners, it was a hard environment to
673
00:29:36,594 --> 00:29:38,626
even immerse myself in, to do the work
674
00:29:38,626 --> 00:29:40,326
that I did. But I had spent quite a bit of
675
00:29:40,326 --> 00:29:42,342
time sort of honing all of that and
676
00:29:42,342 --> 00:29:44,662
building relationships. But I do remember
677
00:29:44,662 --> 00:29:47,026
sometimes you would see these ngos making
678
00:29:47,026 --> 00:29:48,826
decisions that clearly nobody was in the
679
00:29:48,826 --> 00:29:52,138
back of the truck, understanding just
680
00:29:52,138 --> 00:29:54,598
people, leaders coming in, making
681
00:29:54,598 --> 00:29:56,346
decisions that aren't informed. And then
682
00:29:56,346 --> 00:29:58,614
we would see the aftermath of it. Like
683
00:29:58,614 --> 00:30:02,966
boats that were made for a river that was
684
00:30:02,966 --> 00:30:04,894
intended to be in the ocean. Those are
685
00:30:04,894 --> 00:30:06,746
different. And so they ended up just
686
00:30:06,746 --> 00:30:08,926
turning them upside down and making shops
687
00:30:08,926 --> 00:30:10,842
out of them, because Indonesians are
688
00:30:10,842 --> 00:30:12,766
innovative like that. But there was a lot
689
00:30:12,766 --> 00:30:16,218
of republic of Kuwait boats, and so, yeah,
690
00:30:16,218 --> 00:30:17,918
you just saw decisions being made that
691
00:30:17,918 --> 00:30:20,494
it's like, oh, wow, we don't want to waste
692
00:30:20,494 --> 00:30:23,314
resources by not just spending our time
693
00:30:23,314 --> 00:30:24,898
really understanding. And that could be
694
00:30:24,898 --> 00:30:27,602
anything from in a company where you get,
695
00:30:27,602 --> 00:30:29,150
like, what I'm doing right now is one of
696
00:30:29,150 --> 00:30:32,306
the things I'm working on is we have glint
697
00:30:32,306 --> 00:30:34,198
survey data, and there's a particular part
698
00:30:34,198 --> 00:30:36,294
of the data that we weren't sure what
699
00:30:36,294 --> 00:30:37,526
people meant when they said certain
700
00:30:37,526 --> 00:30:39,574
things. So now I have focus groups going
701
00:30:39,574 --> 00:30:42,178
on here in the office in Silicon Valley.
702
00:30:42,178 --> 00:30:43,738
I'm going to be doing that in Taiwan when
703
00:30:43,738 --> 00:30:45,722
I go there. And it's just asking our
704
00:30:45,722 --> 00:30:48,086
people, what did you mean when you
705
00:30:48,086 --> 00:30:50,006
answered these ways? Like, we don't know
706
00:30:50,006 --> 00:30:52,010
specifically who said what, but just the
707
00:30:52,010 --> 00:30:54,266
data on there that aren't people, and then
708
00:30:54,266 --> 00:30:56,826
there's enough people that said it. So
709
00:30:56,826 --> 00:30:59,486
we're just asking people to share, because
710
00:30:59,486 --> 00:31:01,722
as leaders, like you said, we make
711
00:31:01,722 --> 00:31:03,662
decisions, and our decisions, if they're
712
00:31:03,662 --> 00:31:07,694
not informed by actual how things work, we
713
00:31:07,694 --> 00:31:09,746
make bad decisions. So what are some of
714
00:31:09,746 --> 00:31:11,234
the things that you've learned along the
715
00:31:11,234 --> 00:31:13,326
way in terms of just in addition to what
716
00:31:13,326 --> 00:31:15,554
you're saying or advice you give to people
717
00:31:15,554 --> 00:31:17,254
about people, how they can have a little
718
00:31:17,254 --> 00:31:20,934
more clarity when they make decisions? So
719
00:31:20,934 --> 00:31:22,578
the first thing that comes to mind, and
720
00:31:22,578 --> 00:31:25,026
we've actually woven this into our company
721
00:31:25,026 --> 00:31:27,986
core values, there was an amazing woman.
722
00:31:27,986 --> 00:31:30,806
She's passed away now, called Pamela
723
00:31:30,806 --> 00:31:32,314
hardigan. I'm not sure if you're familiar
724
00:31:32,314 --> 00:31:34,486
with her, but she had this beautiful
725
00:31:34,486 --> 00:31:36,586
phrase that she used where she would say,
726
00:31:36,586 --> 00:31:39,738
you need to apprentice with the problem.
727
00:31:39,738 --> 00:31:42,042
And that piece of the example you just
728
00:31:42,042 --> 00:31:43,662
gave, being a beautiful example, don't
729
00:31:43,662 --> 00:31:46,954
just assume you understand something.
730
00:31:46,954 --> 00:31:48,782
Don't think that good intentions are good
731
00:31:48,782 --> 00:31:51,066
enough. Well, I was trying to help. So
732
00:31:51,066 --> 00:31:53,566
surely that boat, that was for the ocean,
733
00:31:53,566 --> 00:31:55,514
you should be thankful because I'm very
734
00:31:55,514 --> 00:31:58,354
generous and was helping you. These pieces
735
00:31:58,354 --> 00:32:01,246
of stopping and saying, how do we need to
736
00:32:01,246 --> 00:32:02,466
apprentice with the problem? Where do we
737
00:32:02,466 --> 00:32:04,642
come at this from curiosity? Where do we
738
00:32:04,642 --> 00:32:06,614
ask a question and have a conversation,
739
00:32:06,614 --> 00:32:09,650
rather than assume we know best and then
740
00:32:09,650 --> 00:32:13,622
impose ourselves on people or situations
741
00:32:13,622 --> 00:32:17,122
that, as your starting point, is always a
742
00:32:17,122 --> 00:32:18,966
brilliant way to. You're never going to
743
00:32:18,966 --> 00:32:21,398
get it perfectly right. It's a bit like
744
00:32:21,398 --> 00:32:23,130
parenting. There will be things that our
745
00:32:23,130 --> 00:32:26,134
children are deeply hurt by and
746
00:32:26,134 --> 00:32:27,734
disappointed in what we've done,
747
00:32:27,734 --> 00:32:29,274
regardless of what our intentions are and
748
00:32:29,274 --> 00:32:32,554
how we do our best? Right. So in none of
749
00:32:32,554 --> 00:32:34,926
this, am I trying to make leaders feel
750
00:32:34,926 --> 00:32:36,560
like, oh, my goodness, I've got to be
751
00:32:36,560 --> 00:32:38,862
perfect. But I always say, you need to
752
00:32:38,862 --> 00:32:40,942
hold these two. This goes back to your
753
00:32:40,942 --> 00:32:43,214
both and mindset. Right. So as a leader,
754
00:32:43,214 --> 00:32:45,850
being able to hold two things that seem
755
00:32:45,850 --> 00:32:47,700
contradictory and say they're equally
756
00:32:47,700 --> 00:32:50,274
true, I think that when we are trying to
757
00:32:50,274 --> 00:32:52,178
move into this world and be more conscious
758
00:32:52,178 --> 00:32:55,362
of the impact we're having in a flow on
759
00:32:55,362 --> 00:32:57,926
way in the world, in the work that we do,
760
00:32:57,926 --> 00:33:02,278
we need to hold in our minds the piece of
761
00:33:02,278 --> 00:33:04,374
how do we have a designerly disposition.
762
00:33:04,374 --> 00:33:08,082
So how do we be willing to try just pilot,
763
00:33:08,082 --> 00:33:12,122
prototype, test things, but do that in a
764
00:33:12,122 --> 00:33:15,066
way that also holds what Rattel, I'm not
765
00:33:15,066 --> 00:33:17,722
sure whether you've read any of the work
766
00:33:17,722 --> 00:33:19,494
around what's called wicked problems that
767
00:33:19,494 --> 00:33:22,494
Rattel wrote many years ago, but in there
768
00:33:22,494 --> 00:33:25,038
he talks about if you are intervening in a
769
00:33:25,038 --> 00:33:27,182
system or in a position where there are
770
00:33:27,182 --> 00:33:30,350
these deeply complex problems, then you
771
00:33:30,350 --> 00:33:33,274
have no right to be wrong. And people can
772
00:33:33,274 --> 00:33:35,426
freak out when they hear that. But I think
773
00:33:35,426 --> 00:33:38,482
when you hold designly disposition and no
774
00:33:38,482 --> 00:33:42,178
right to be wrong together, what it allows
775
00:33:42,178 --> 00:33:45,694
you to do is say, how would we test or
776
00:33:45,694 --> 00:33:48,194
prototype this without actually really
777
00:33:48,194 --> 00:33:50,902
raising expectations for a group of people
778
00:33:50,902 --> 00:33:54,246
that have then come to rely on us? And we
779
00:33:54,246 --> 00:33:56,374
actually didn't know what we were doing,
780
00:33:56,374 --> 00:33:58,614
and we didn't yet have sign off or budget
781
00:33:58,614 --> 00:34:00,806
to continue to do that. So we probably
782
00:34:00,806 --> 00:34:02,794
shouldn't have talked a big game yet.
783
00:34:02,794 --> 00:34:06,134
Right. So holding two seemingly
784
00:34:06,134 --> 00:34:07,642
contradictory things in your mind at the
785
00:34:07,642 --> 00:34:11,674
same time, and then landing at and
786
00:34:11,674 --> 00:34:15,406
continuing to work your model or your
787
00:34:15,406 --> 00:34:18,062
design until you get to a place where
788
00:34:18,062 --> 00:34:21,374
those two things can coexist, that is the
789
00:34:21,374 --> 00:34:23,790
most effective way to step into this
790
00:34:23,790 --> 00:34:27,278
space. So I think some of those ideas
791
00:34:27,278 --> 00:34:29,026
apprenticing with the problem, learning to
792
00:34:29,026 --> 00:34:30,946
have that designly disposition, be willing
793
00:34:30,946 --> 00:34:34,062
to play and try and not being scared of
794
00:34:34,062 --> 00:34:37,030
failing, but also taking seriously your
795
00:34:37,030 --> 00:34:39,522
responsibilities. Those pieces, when they
796
00:34:39,522 --> 00:34:42,434
dance together, create a really
797
00:34:42,434 --> 00:34:44,054
energizing, exciting culture for people
798
00:34:44,054 --> 00:34:46,786
because they can try new things, they can
799
00:34:46,786 --> 00:34:50,022
explore, but they also feel that sense of
800
00:34:50,022 --> 00:34:52,250
the weight, if you like, but in a positive
801
00:34:52,250 --> 00:34:54,266
way, of there is responsibility here, and
802
00:34:54,266 --> 00:34:56,166
I want to act with integrity. I want to be
803
00:34:56,166 --> 00:34:58,234
proud of what we're building. We don't
804
00:34:58,234 --> 00:35:01,386
want to fall into that trap of that black
805
00:35:01,386 --> 00:35:03,946
and white aspect of business, being that
806
00:35:03,946 --> 00:35:05,806
for us to win, someone else has to lose,
807
00:35:05,806 --> 00:35:08,106
or it's on the back of someone else being
808
00:35:08,106 --> 00:35:09,854
exploited. That's not what we're trying to
809
00:35:09,854 --> 00:35:11,886
do. And so I think some of those pieces
810
00:35:11,886 --> 00:35:14,754
are good ways to start as a leader in your
811
00:35:14,754 --> 00:35:17,858
own culture, to say, here's what we want
812
00:35:17,858 --> 00:35:21,442
to be moving towards. What are the types
813
00:35:21,442 --> 00:35:24,482
of ways we could run a project, or how we
814
00:35:24,482 --> 00:35:27,782
could explore opportunities in a different
815
00:35:27,782 --> 00:35:30,440
way that holds these two pieces in our
816
00:35:30,440 --> 00:35:37,254
mind. So good. I think a lot of leaders
817
00:35:37,254 --> 00:35:42,026
we. See are. Working in such a way as to
818
00:35:42,026 --> 00:35:45,210
where they're kind of burning out. Because
819
00:35:45,210 --> 00:35:46,986
especially if you're doing, going above
820
00:35:46,986 --> 00:35:52,106
and beyond, like in business, for example,
821
00:35:52,106 --> 00:35:55,146
there's deadlines to make, there's direct
822
00:35:55,146 --> 00:35:57,130
reports to make sure you're caring for and
823
00:35:57,130 --> 00:35:58,762
motivating, and especially middle
824
00:35:58,762 --> 00:36:01,454
management, kind of sort of a huge part of
825
00:36:01,454 --> 00:36:04,286
the job of these middle management to make
826
00:36:04,286 --> 00:36:06,266
sure they're continuing to motivate
827
00:36:06,266 --> 00:36:08,722
workforce. And then they're having to
828
00:36:08,722 --> 00:36:10,866
maybe pass down decisions that they may or
829
00:36:10,866 --> 00:36:13,074
may not have agreed with and say it in a
830
00:36:13,074 --> 00:36:14,978
way that their direct reports can receive
831
00:36:14,978 --> 00:36:16,418
when they may feel that they're burning
832
00:36:16,418 --> 00:36:18,182
their own direct reports out. Because
833
00:36:18,182 --> 00:36:20,674
business can be hard at times. And then
834
00:36:20,674 --> 00:36:22,774
leaders have this sort of mental load that
835
00:36:22,774 --> 00:36:27,046
they carry. So have you seen leaders where
836
00:36:27,046 --> 00:36:28,906
they want to do the right thing? They want
837
00:36:28,906 --> 00:36:31,766
to be leaders who don't just care about
838
00:36:31,766 --> 00:36:34,474
profit, but to add on purpose just feels
839
00:36:34,474 --> 00:36:38,714
too much. It feels like an overload. Have
840
00:36:38,714 --> 00:36:40,314
you encountered people like that? And if
841
00:36:40,314 --> 00:36:41,838
so, what have you told them? Or how have
842
00:36:41,838 --> 00:36:46,778
you helped them? I think for most business
843
00:36:46,778 --> 00:36:48,894
leaders, it still falls into that category
844
00:36:48,894 --> 00:36:52,954
where it feels like part of them would
845
00:36:52,954 --> 00:36:54,962
love for that to be something that was
846
00:36:54,962 --> 00:36:57,554
their experience at work. But it seems
847
00:36:57,554 --> 00:37:01,054
like that's another thing to do. And it
848
00:37:01,054 --> 00:37:05,334
typically is framed in a way where it's
849
00:37:05,334 --> 00:37:08,930
seen as a distraction to the primary
850
00:37:08,930 --> 00:37:11,762
strategy or something that will be an
851
00:37:11,762 --> 00:37:14,454
expense or time consuming. And that's
852
00:37:14,454 --> 00:37:17,270
really disappointing, because that is, in
853
00:37:17,270 --> 00:37:22,634
many respects, on the back of people like
854
00:37:22,634 --> 00:37:25,420
me, who for decades have been in this
855
00:37:25,420 --> 00:37:28,854
world. If what you've always seen as the
856
00:37:28,854 --> 00:37:31,200
examples of how to contribute or do
857
00:37:31,200 --> 00:37:33,802
something have been things that were
858
00:37:33,802 --> 00:37:36,698
incredibly expensive, really time
859
00:37:36,698 --> 00:37:39,306
consuming, and weren't connected to the
860
00:37:39,306 --> 00:37:42,218
core business, then that's all you've been
861
00:37:42,218 --> 00:37:43,146
demonstrated. And so you think, well,
862
00:37:43,146 --> 00:37:45,626
that's nice. And maybe if I had 10,000
863
00:37:45,626 --> 00:37:47,250
employees, I could do that, or maybe if I
864
00:37:47,250 --> 00:37:49,620
had massive cash flow, that would be an
865
00:37:49,620 --> 00:37:52,290
option, but how on earth am I going to do
866
00:37:52,290 --> 00:37:55,118
that? And so I think part of the work,
867
00:37:55,118 --> 00:37:58,146
particularly in the last two years, where
868
00:37:58,146 --> 00:38:01,362
I've been pulling together what the actual
869
00:38:01,362 --> 00:38:03,446
methodology is and saying, how do we get
870
00:38:03,446 --> 00:38:06,002
back to a place where you can be
871
00:38:06,002 --> 00:38:08,502
unapologetic about pursuing the
872
00:38:08,502 --> 00:38:10,406
competitive advantages that come from
873
00:38:10,406 --> 00:38:13,050
merging these aspects of money and
874
00:38:13,050 --> 00:38:15,958
meaning? You don't need to feel
875
00:38:15,958 --> 00:38:19,610
uncomfortable about something being
876
00:38:19,610 --> 00:38:24,494
commercially advantageous, as long as it
877
00:38:24,494 --> 00:38:27,918
is connected to growth and scaling of a
878
00:38:27,918 --> 00:38:30,094
business on the back of adding more value.
879
00:38:30,094 --> 00:38:32,746
So if we come back to this piece of when
880
00:38:32,746 --> 00:38:35,166
you're in that place of exhaustion, and it
881
00:38:35,166 --> 00:38:37,394
feels like you just couldn't add another
882
00:38:37,394 --> 00:38:40,754
thing in, it's stopping and saying, yeah,
883
00:38:40,754 --> 00:38:42,962
and you shouldn't add another thing in,
884
00:38:42,962 --> 00:38:45,310
but maybe you could run your business
885
00:38:45,310 --> 00:38:46,614
differently. And even if you're at that
886
00:38:46,614 --> 00:38:48,726
level of middle management, because that,
887
00:38:48,726 --> 00:38:51,350
as you said, can be a very difficult
888
00:38:51,350 --> 00:38:55,494
position to be in. It's figuring out where
889
00:38:55,494 --> 00:38:57,718
do you have influence and control? What
890
00:38:57,718 --> 00:39:02,090
are the decisions you can actually be
891
00:39:02,090 --> 00:39:05,674
shaping. And if there's a report, there's
892
00:39:05,674 --> 00:39:07,546
a directive coming down that you're going
893
00:39:07,546 --> 00:39:09,510
to need to share with your team and you
894
00:39:09,510 --> 00:39:11,614
fundamentally don't agree with it, but it
895
00:39:11,614 --> 00:39:16,058
has to be played out. You can shape how
896
00:39:16,058 --> 00:39:18,046
that's shared with your team or exactly
897
00:39:18,046 --> 00:39:20,142
how it's executed within your team, and
898
00:39:20,142 --> 00:39:22,714
whether there's conversations about
899
00:39:22,714 --> 00:39:25,546
figuring out, right, let's not turn into
900
00:39:25,546 --> 00:39:27,346
being every person for themselves, but how
901
00:39:27,346 --> 00:39:30,434
do we, as our own little team, talk this
902
00:39:30,434 --> 00:39:33,294
through and divide up the tasks so that it
903
00:39:33,294 --> 00:39:35,206
doesn't actually have a detrimental effect
904
00:39:35,206 --> 00:39:38,662
on us? Or how do you, as the leader of
905
00:39:38,662 --> 00:39:41,590
your individual team, even within a bigger
906
00:39:41,590 --> 00:39:44,582
organization, cultivate that space where
907
00:39:44,582 --> 00:39:46,754
people do feel, for example,
908
00:39:46,754 --> 00:39:48,610
psychologically safe, where they are able
909
00:39:48,610 --> 00:39:50,700
to come and talk to you when it's
910
00:39:50,700 --> 00:39:53,146
difficult? Now, there will be constraints
911
00:39:53,146 --> 00:39:55,674
to that depending on what your position
912
00:39:55,674 --> 00:39:58,522
is, and I absolutely acknowledge that. I
913
00:39:58,522 --> 00:40:01,690
think regardless of where your leadership
914
00:40:01,690 --> 00:40:03,434
position is in the organization, though,
915
00:40:03,434 --> 00:40:05,086
it's starting with those pieces of where
916
00:40:05,086 --> 00:40:06,974
do I have decision making control, or at
917
00:40:06,974 --> 00:40:10,234
least some influence, and then how do I
918
00:40:10,234 --> 00:40:13,066
shape things from there towards this idea
919
00:40:13,066 --> 00:40:16,222
of business where we're unapologetically
920
00:40:16,222 --> 00:40:19,986
pursuing both? So we're saying, okay, we
921
00:40:19,986 --> 00:40:22,334
can get to a place where, rather than
922
00:40:22,334 --> 00:40:24,258
burning out our team, because we see that,
923
00:40:24,258 --> 00:40:26,738
oh, my goodness, for us to actually be
924
00:40:26,738 --> 00:40:28,934
able to reduce costs and increase revenue
925
00:40:28,934 --> 00:40:30,966
and get that profit up, we're going to
926
00:40:30,966 --> 00:40:34,418
have to get more out of these workers.
927
00:40:34,418 --> 00:40:36,374
Shifting that perspective and saying,
928
00:40:36,374 --> 00:40:37,926
where could we innovate in the back end of
929
00:40:37,926 --> 00:40:40,794
our business model, where actually people
930
00:40:40,794 --> 00:40:42,982
could be doing less hours but being more
931
00:40:42,982 --> 00:40:44,890
productive? Or where are there pieces
932
00:40:44,890 --> 00:40:47,660
where we have something in house that
933
00:40:47,660 --> 00:40:50,998
actually, if we outsourced that, and I
934
00:40:50,998 --> 00:40:52,942
don't mean in the way of going to another
935
00:40:52,942 --> 00:40:55,530
country and paying people below a living
936
00:40:55,530 --> 00:40:58,190
wage, I mean figuring out what your core
937
00:40:58,190 --> 00:41:00,174
business is and then not being distracted
938
00:41:00,174 --> 00:41:02,750
by trying to be doing everything
939
00:41:02,750 --> 00:41:04,986
internally, all of these pieces are the
940
00:41:04,986 --> 00:41:07,714
role of a leader, whether a middle manager
941
00:41:07,714 --> 00:41:09,886
or someone actually running the company.
942
00:41:09,886 --> 00:41:12,558
It's to say, how do we change our
943
00:41:12,558 --> 00:41:13,986
perspective, starting from that place?
944
00:41:13,986 --> 00:41:15,874
That said, I do actually believe that you
945
00:41:15,874 --> 00:41:17,986
can merge money and meaning, and that I
946
00:41:17,986 --> 00:41:20,066
can get to a place where I see that
947
00:41:20,066 --> 00:41:22,566
purpose of business being, how do I know
948
00:41:22,566 --> 00:41:25,462
the value I bring? How do I understand the
949
00:41:25,462 --> 00:41:28,146
value customers want from us? And how do I
950
00:41:28,146 --> 00:41:30,554
capture value in return when it's that
951
00:41:30,554 --> 00:41:32,634
piece of delivering and capturing value
952
00:41:32,634 --> 00:41:34,662
and creating that beautiful self
953
00:41:34,662 --> 00:41:37,306
reinforcing loop where we're only growing
954
00:41:37,306 --> 00:41:39,802
on the back of adding more value, what
955
00:41:39,802 --> 00:41:44,222
that does, the delivery of value. And then
956
00:41:44,222 --> 00:41:47,360
that driving of revenue into your business
957
00:41:47,360 --> 00:41:51,102
model suddenly means you are not in the
958
00:41:51,102 --> 00:41:53,226
position of being exhausted. And seeing
959
00:41:53,226 --> 00:41:56,194
this as another thing to add on, it
960
00:41:56,194 --> 00:41:58,274
actually relieves pressure and stress,
961
00:41:58,274 --> 00:42:01,214
both financially and on that mental load,
962
00:42:01,214 --> 00:42:03,938
people's well being. So creating that win
963
00:42:03,938 --> 00:42:05,798
win actually starts from that belief about
964
00:42:05,798 --> 00:42:07,878
the purpose of business and then looking
965
00:42:07,878 --> 00:42:12,022
at the opportunity differently. Yeah. So
966
00:42:12,022 --> 00:42:14,946
good. I love it. It's definitely the
967
00:42:14,946 --> 00:42:17,190
challenge of leaders, but there are good
968
00:42:17,190 --> 00:42:18,806
things being done and there's people doing
969
00:42:18,806 --> 00:42:21,670
it well. And I think that having these
970
00:42:21,670 --> 00:42:23,190
conversations is really helpful.
971
00:42:23,190 --> 00:42:25,242
Hopefully, people listening are getting
972
00:42:25,242 --> 00:42:27,274
new thoughts because of what they've heard
973
00:42:27,274 --> 00:42:29,338
you say and your own experiences. And I
974
00:42:29,338 --> 00:42:30,814
just thank you for sharing those with us
975
00:42:30,814 --> 00:42:34,206
today. Your unique background, bringing
976
00:42:34,206 --> 00:42:36,266
your work in both kind of nonprofit
977
00:42:36,266 --> 00:42:38,558
spaces, and then with government and
978
00:42:38,558 --> 00:42:41,086
business all together, these things are
979
00:42:41,086 --> 00:42:43,198
not at ods with each other. They can work
980
00:42:43,198 --> 00:42:45,226
together, even those entities, those
981
00:42:45,226 --> 00:42:46,366
institutions, to make a difference. So
982
00:42:46,366 --> 00:42:47,566
thank you for bringing that together for
983
00:42:47,566 --> 00:42:49,586
us today. Would you let people know where
984
00:42:49,586 --> 00:42:50,834
they can find you if they want to know
985
00:42:50,834 --> 00:42:52,894
more about your work? Do you have any
986
00:42:52,894 --> 00:42:54,386
freebies to offer that people might want
987
00:42:54,386 --> 00:42:56,338
to know about. And let people know about
988
00:42:56,338 --> 00:42:58,274
that? Yeah, absolutely. So the best place
989
00:42:58,274 --> 00:43:01,526
to go is to my website, bessiegraham.com.
990
00:43:01,526 --> 00:43:04,614
So we'll share the link, and we'll also
991
00:43:04,614 --> 00:43:06,886
share a link to a free download that you
992
00:43:06,886 --> 00:43:09,560
can grab, which goes through five of the
993
00:43:09,560 --> 00:43:13,162
questions that over my 24, nearly 25 years
994
00:43:13,162 --> 00:43:15,494
of working in this space, I've found these
995
00:43:15,494 --> 00:43:18,486
patterns of five questions that decisive
996
00:43:18,486 --> 00:43:20,346
leaders need to actually have clarity on.
997
00:43:20,346 --> 00:43:21,994
And so if you want to have a read of that
998
00:43:21,994 --> 00:43:23,882
and think about, can you actually answer
999
00:43:23,882 --> 00:43:25,726
those questions? Where do you have some of
1000
00:43:25,726 --> 00:43:27,774
the gaps? That's a great place to start.
1001
00:43:27,774 --> 00:43:31,134
So head to the website and download that.
1002
00:43:31,134 --> 00:43:32,478
And from the website, you'll also be able
1003
00:43:32,478 --> 00:43:34,366
to find the podcast and any other bits you
1004
00:43:34,366 --> 00:43:37,106
might want to dig in a little bit more to
1005
00:43:37,106 --> 00:43:40,722
what I'm working on. Lovely. Thank you so
1006
00:43:40,722 --> 00:43:43,026
much, Bessie. It's been just an honor to
1007
00:43:43,026 --> 00:43:44,626
have this conversation with you. It's
1008
00:43:44,626 --> 00:43:47,086
given me new insights and a new
1009
00:43:47,086 --> 00:43:49,106
imagination for how things can be in
1010
00:43:49,106 --> 00:43:51,654
business and in nonprofit and all those
1011
00:43:51,654 --> 00:43:53,366
things together. And so just thank you for
1012
00:43:53,366 --> 00:43:54,566
this conversation. But we're going to have
1013
00:43:54,566 --> 00:43:56,578
you also hang out with our difference
1014
00:43:56,578 --> 00:43:58,406
makers. So any of you who aren't there,
1015
00:43:58,406 --> 00:44:02,054
you can check us out at ww patreon.com
1016
00:44:02,054 --> 00:44:04,026
slash a world of difference where Bessie
1017
00:44:04,026 --> 00:44:05,706
and I'll be having this conversation a
1018
00:44:05,706 --> 00:44:08,282
little deeper around the self leadership
1019
00:44:08,282 --> 00:44:10,806
piece and the resilience piece for our
1020
00:44:10,806 --> 00:44:12,474
leaders. I want to kind of dig a little
1021
00:44:12,474 --> 00:44:14,298
more into that with yeah, but for this
1022
00:44:14,298 --> 00:44:15,566
part of the conversation, just thank you
1023
00:44:15,566 --> 00:44:17,402
so much for being here today. It's been an
1024
00:44:17,402 --> 00:44:20,506
honor. My pleasure. Thank you. I really
1025
00:44:20,506 --> 00:44:22,074
learned so much from Bessie and her
1026
00:44:22,074 --> 00:44:24,318
perspective today. Just loved her stories
1027
00:44:24,318 --> 00:44:26,802
of sitting in the back of the truck,
1028
00:44:26,802 --> 00:44:29,326
right, of being the kind of leader who
1029
00:44:29,326 --> 00:44:31,454
understands that macro and micro
1030
00:44:31,454 --> 00:44:33,026
perspectives on a situation really lead to
1031
00:44:33,026 --> 00:44:35,406
the best decisions and to be more
1032
00:44:35,406 --> 00:44:37,334
inclusive in the people she listens to, to
1033
00:44:37,334 --> 00:44:40,722
make decisions that really matter, really
1034
00:44:40,722 --> 00:44:43,174
holding businesses to the values they set
1035
00:44:43,174 --> 00:44:44,946
out at the beginning to say, this is why
1036
00:44:44,946 --> 00:44:47,814
we're doing this and helping people start
1037
00:44:47,814 --> 00:44:50,202
at that beginning of the process instead
1038
00:44:50,202 --> 00:44:52,886
of making decisions way down the line and
1039
00:44:52,886 --> 00:44:55,354
forgetting why they do what they do. I
1040
00:44:55,354 --> 00:44:57,994
really do agree with her that when it
1041
00:44:57,994 --> 00:45:00,842
comes to resilience for leaders and why
1042
00:45:00,842 --> 00:45:03,326
people burn out some of the things we talk
1043
00:45:03,326 --> 00:45:05,994
a lot more deeply about in the difference
1044
00:45:05,994 --> 00:45:08,126
maker conversation. So please join us
1045
00:45:08,126 --> 00:45:11,870
there at Ww dot patreon.com a world of
1046
00:45:11,870 --> 00:45:13,226
difference where you'll get to hear that
1047
00:45:13,226 --> 00:45:14,686
exclusive interview with her. We go a lot
1048
00:45:14,686 --> 00:45:18,066
deeper into what it means to lead
1049
00:45:18,066 --> 00:45:20,110
yourself, have self leadership and
1050
00:45:20,110 --> 00:45:23,038
resilience in the face of all kinds of
1051
00:45:23,038 --> 00:45:24,398
circumstances. If I'm being honest, I
1052
00:45:24,398 --> 00:45:25,998
loved this podcast conversation you're
1053
00:45:25,998 --> 00:45:28,754
listening to now. But I even loved more
1054
00:45:28,754 --> 00:45:30,706
the conversation we had on our difference
1055
00:45:30,706 --> 00:45:32,326
maker community. So please do check that
1056
00:45:32,326 --> 00:45:35,014
out. We go into what do you do when you
1057
00:45:35,014 --> 00:45:37,506
show up as a leader and you don't look or
1058
00:45:37,506 --> 00:45:39,846
seem like they expected you to be? How do
1059
00:45:39,846 --> 00:45:41,926
you navigate that situation? What are some
1060
00:45:41,926 --> 00:45:43,706
tips and tricks she's learned along the
1061
00:45:43,706 --> 00:45:45,386
way? Who are people she's learned from
1062
00:45:45,386 --> 00:45:48,954
that have informed her how to be a leader
1063
00:45:48,954 --> 00:45:51,702
that stays true to yourself even when the
1064
00:45:51,702 --> 00:45:53,114
expectations of who you are going to be
1065
00:45:53,114 --> 00:45:54,458
looks a little different when you show up
1066
00:45:54,458 --> 00:45:57,418
in the room. And I loved that
1067
00:45:57,418 --> 00:45:59,022
conversation. I find that when we pass
1068
00:45:59,022 --> 00:46:00,606
along information to each other about
1069
00:46:00,606 --> 00:46:02,174
things we've learned and the knowledge we
1070
00:46:02,174 --> 00:46:04,274
have just from our own experience, and
1071
00:46:04,274 --> 00:46:05,954
someone like her, having a couple decades
1072
00:46:05,954 --> 00:46:09,794
of experience of not only working know,
1073
00:46:09,794 --> 00:46:12,334
having Geneva UN headquarters in her
1074
00:46:12,334 --> 00:46:14,210
background, but also Pacific islands and
1075
00:46:14,210 --> 00:46:16,210
then also the work she does there in a big
1076
00:46:16,210 --> 00:46:19,266
city and diverse Melbourne, Australia, she
1077
00:46:19,266 --> 00:46:21,414
brings all these things to the table and I
1078
00:46:21,414 --> 00:46:22,694
just really learned so much from her
1079
00:46:22,694 --> 00:46:24,054
today. I hope you did too. Whether you
1080
00:46:24,054 --> 00:46:27,382
work in business, nonprofit, government,
1081
00:46:27,382 --> 00:46:29,138
whatever your space is, I hope you've
1082
00:46:29,138 --> 00:46:30,966
gleaned from this conversation. It was
1083
00:46:30,966 --> 00:46:32,874
just so much fun to talk to her. And once
1084
00:46:32,874 --> 00:46:35,462
again, please do check out the Patreon.
1085
00:46:35,462 --> 00:46:38,730
It's ww dot patreon.com. A world of
1086
00:46:38,730 --> 00:46:41,434
difference where you're going to just love
1087
00:46:41,434 --> 00:46:43,198
that conversation we had there, where we
1088
00:46:43,198 --> 00:46:45,454
go a lot deeper on the whole resilience
1089
00:46:45,454 --> 00:46:47,406
piece, self leadership piece, and how to
1090
00:46:47,406 --> 00:46:49,134
be authentically yourself in the midst of
1091
00:46:49,134 --> 00:46:52,270
really difficult circumstances sometimes.
1092
00:46:52,270 --> 00:46:55,794
So I know that many of you are just all
1093
00:46:55,794 --> 00:46:58,430
around the world dealing with hard
1094
00:46:58,430 --> 00:47:00,674
decisions. So hopefully know bringing some
1095
00:47:00,674 --> 00:47:03,154
more congruence into the decisions that
1096
00:47:03,154 --> 00:47:05,806
you make will help alleviate some of that
1097
00:47:05,806 --> 00:47:07,362
burnout that some of you may be feeling.
1098
00:47:07,362 --> 00:47:09,286
Because I know you difference makers, you
1099
00:47:09,286 --> 00:47:12,262
are not couch potatoes. You were people
1100
00:47:12,262 --> 00:47:14,178
who do need a break and do need a day of
1101
00:47:14,178 --> 00:47:16,662
laying on the couch occasionally just to
1102
00:47:16,662 --> 00:47:20,706
watch Netflix and just eat your favorite
1103
00:47:20,706 --> 00:47:22,586
ice cream. I don't know, some of you out
1104
00:47:22,586 --> 00:47:25,740
there just need a break, but at the same
1105
00:47:25,740 --> 00:47:27,866
time doing the work that you do that helps
1106
00:47:27,866 --> 00:47:29,626
you stay congruent with who you are. I
1107
00:47:29,626 --> 00:47:31,034
hope that you lean a little more into that
1108
00:47:31,034 --> 00:47:33,066
after this conversation and that she can
1109
00:47:33,066 --> 00:47:36,214
give some of her insights, can give you
1110
00:47:36,214 --> 00:47:37,658
handles on how to move forward in a way
1111
00:47:37,658 --> 00:47:39,278
that's more authentically who you are. We
1112
00:47:39,278 --> 00:47:41,086
need you to show up as yourself in the
1113
00:47:41,086 --> 00:47:42,794
world and bring your difference to the
1114
00:47:42,794 --> 00:47:44,462
table and help us all make a difference
1115
00:47:44,462 --> 00:47:46,378
together because of who you are. And you
1116
00:47:46,378 --> 00:47:48,826
don't have to be like everybody else. So
1117
00:47:48,826 --> 00:47:51,646
I'm glad she reminded us of that today.
1118
00:47:51,646 --> 00:47:53,662
Anyway, wherever you are in the world,
1119
00:47:53,662 --> 00:47:55,702
please just take care of yourself and keep