A podcast for those who are different and want to make a difference.
Feb. 28, 2024

Making Money While Making a Difference: An Expert's Blueprint with Bessi Graham

Making Money While Making a Difference: An Expert's Blueprint with Bessi Graham

Hey, have you ever felt like you're trying to do the right thing in your business, but it just feels like too much? Like you want to merge profit with purpose, but it seems overwhelming. You're not alone. Many leaders struggle with this, and it can lead to burnout and exhaustion. Let's tackle this together and find a way to align your values with your business practices without feeling overwhelmed.

Hey, have you ever felt like you're trying to do the right thing in your business, but it just feels like too much? Like you want to merge profit with purpose, but it seems overwhelming. You're not alone. Many leaders struggle with this, and it can lead to burnout and exhaustion. Let's tackle this together and find a way to align your values with your business practices without feeling overwhelmed.

 

My special guest is Bessi Graham

 

Today, we are honored to have Bessi Graham as our guest on the show, joining us from Melbourne, Australia. Bessi is a highly respected entrepreneur with over two decades of experience working closely with business owners, government entities, and major funding bodies. Her extensive involvement ranges from grassroots initiatives with business owners in the Pacific Islands to impactful contributions at the United Nations headquarters in Geneva. Bessi's unparalleled perspective and deep understanding of merging profit and purpose have made her a sought-after authority in the realm of ethical and sustainable business practices. Her commitment to guiding individuals in aligning their values with their business endeavors has led to the creation of impactful legacies. With her wealth of experience in ethical and purpose-driven enterprises, Bessi brings invaluable insights to our discussion today.

I think regardless of where your leadership position is in the organization, it's starting with those pieces of where do I have decision making control, or at least some influence, and then how do I shape things from there towards this idea of business where we're unapologetically pursuing both? - Bessi Graham

 

In this episode, you will be able to:

  • Discover how to merge profit and purpose for a more sustainable business model.
  • Explore the importance of authentic leadership values in driving organizational success.
  • Learn the benefits of embracing diversity in decision-making processes for better business outcomes.
  • Humanize your leadership style to create a more inclusive and empowering workplace environment.
  • Find out how to effectively balance profit with social impact for a meaningful and successful business.
  •  

Diversity in decision-making

Diversity fuels creativity, fosters a broader perspective, and aids in making more informed decisions. Bessi advocates for diverse perspectives in decision-making processes and leadership roles, believing it leads to a more inclusive and effective work environment. She stresses the value of stepping out of one's comfort zone to gain a deeper understanding of various contexts, making decision-making a shared and holistic process.

 

The resources mentioned in this episode are:

 

You need to apprentice with the problem. Don't just assume you understand something. Don't think that good intentions are good enough. - Bessi Graham

 

Authentic leadership values

Leadership, as per Bessi, should echo authentic values. It is important that leaders' actions align with their stated values to build trust, credibility, and influence. Moreover, these values should inform decision-making processes ensuring organisational integrity and fostering a culture of honesty and transparency.

 

The key moments in this episode are:

00:00:02 - Bridging Profit and Purpose

 

00:06:49 - Impact of Living Abroad

 

00:10:14 - Humanizing Leadership

 

00:14:06 - Influence of Values

 

00:15:14 - Meaningful Values

 

00:16:04 - The Importance of Core Values

 

00:17:10 - Aligning Values with Action

 

00:18:11 - Core Values in Organizations

 

00:19:03 - Decision Cascade and Clarity

 

00:25:00 - Bridging Systemic and Grassroots Perspectives

 

00:31:08 - Apprenticing with the Problem

 

00:36:17 - Balancing Purpose and Profit

 

00:39:57 - Shaping Decision-Making

 

00:42:19 - Purpose and Opportunity

 

00:43:44 - Connecting with Bessie

 

00:45:55 - Learning from Experience

 

00:46:32 - Resilience and Self-Leadership

 

00:47:07 - Taking a Break without Compromising Impact

 

00:47:45 - Embracing Individuality

 

We need to hold these two. This goes back to your both and mindset. Right. So as a leader, being able to hold two things that seem contradictory and say they're equally true. - Bessi Graham

 

Merge profit and purpose

Bessi Graham emphasizes that profitability and purpose are not mutually exclusive. One can create a business model that aligns with personal values, promotes social impact, and ensures financial success. The trick lies in understanding customer value, and in finding ways to create and capture said value while benefiting society.

 

Timestamped summary of this episode:

00:00:02 - Bridging Profit and Purpose

Bessie discusses the importance of merging money and meaning in business. She emphasizes the need for leaders to uncover their unconscious beliefs about the purpose of business and how it impacts decision-making.

 

00:06:49 - Impact of Living Abroad

Bessie shares how her experiences living in different countries shaped her perspective as a leader. She highlights the value of diverse perspectives and the importance of intentionally seeking out different viewpoints in leadership.

 

00:10:14 - Humanizing Leadership

Bessie delves into the concept of humanizing leadership and the need to treat employees as more than just cogs in a wheel. She emphasizes the importance of integrating purpose into business decisions and creating a more holistic approach to leadership.

 

00:14:06 - Influence of Values

Bessie discusses the influence of values on decision-making as a leader. She emphasizes the need for leaders to understand and articulate their values, and how values drive behavior in business settings.

 

00:15:14 - Meaningful Values

Bessie explores the deeper meaning of values in business and challenges the superficial approach often taken. She emphasizes the importance of values as a guiding force in decision-making and living authentically as a leader.

 

00:16:04 - The Importance of Core Values

Bessi discusses the significance of identifying and living by core values. She emphasizes intentionally cultivating conditions that allow individuals to live in alignment with their values, leading to better decision-making and natural best performance.

 

00:17:10 - Aligning Values with Action

Bessi emphasizes the need for values to inform decision-making and actions. She highlights the importance of having values as filters for decision-making, particularly in fast-paced environments, to maintain integrity and alignment.

 

00:18:11 - Core Values in Organizations

Bessi stresses the need for clarity in company core values, cautioning against superficial or simplistic lists. She emphasizes the importance of aligning values with behavior and action, not just as aspirational values, to build trust and integrity within the organization.

 

00:19:03 - Decision Cascade and Clarity

Bessi introduces the concept of the decision cascade as a tool for unlocking clarity and decisiveness, particularly around values. She explains how breaking down decisions into primary, secondary, and tertiary levels can lead to smoother decision-making and prevent costly missteps.

 

00:25:00 - Bridging Systemic and Grassroots Perspectives

Bessi shares her experiences working at both grassroots and systemic levels, emphasizing the importance of understanding broader systems while still being connected to the ground reality. She highlights the value of expanding perspectives to bridge different worlds and drive innovation in leadership.

 

00:31:08 - Apprenticing with the Problem

Bessie shares Pamela Hardigan's advice to "apprentice with the problem," emphasizing curiosity, asking questions, and having conversations rather than assuming we know best. She also highlights the importance of holding seemingly contradictory ideas in our minds and working towards a balance.

 

00:36:17 - Balancing Purpose and Profit

Bessie discusses how many leaders feel overwhelmed by the idea of adding purpose to their business, seeing it as a distraction or expense. She challenges this perspective, encouraging leaders to merge money and meaning by pursuing competitive advantages that add value and relieve pressure.

 

00:39:57 - Shaping Decision-Making

Bessie emphasizes the importance of shaping decisions and influencing outcomes, even for middle managers. She encourages leaders to create psychologically safe spaces for their teams, shape how directives are shared, and cultivate a culture of unapologetically pursuing both purpose and profit.

 

00:42:19 - Purpose and Opportunity

Bessie speaks about the belief that money and meaning can be merged, leading to a self-reinforcing loop of delivering and capturing value. She encourages leaders to shift their perspective, innovate in their business models, and create win-win situations that relieve pressure and stress.

 

00:43:44 - Connecting with Bessie

Lori thanks Bessie for sharing her unique perspective and encourages listeners to visit Bessie's website for more resources and insights. Bessie offers a free download of five essential questions

 

00:45:55 - Learning from Experience

Lori discusses the value of sharing knowledge and learning from others, highlighting Bessi Graham's extensive experience working at the UN headquarters and in diverse locations like the Pacific islands and Melbourne, Australia.

 

00:46:32 - Resilience and Self-Leadership

The conversation delves into the importance of resilience and self-leadership, offering insights on how to navigate difficult circumstances and make congruent decisions to alleviate burnout.

 

00:47:07 - Taking a Break without Compromising Impact

Lori emphasizes the significance of taking breaks and self-care while continuing to make a difference in the world, encouraging listeners to stay true to themselves and bring their unique contributions to the table.

 

00:47:45 - Embracing Individuality

The episode concludes with a reminder to embrace individuality and show up authentically, highlighting the importance of being true to oneself and making a difference in the world. Lori urges listeners to take care of themselves and continue making an impact.

 

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Keep making a difference wherever you are!

Lori Adams-Brown, Host & Executive Producer

A World of Difference Podcast

Transcript
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Welcome to the a World of Difference

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podcast. I'm Lori Adams Brown and this is

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a podcast for those who are different and

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want to make a difference. This podcast is

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sponsored by Betterhelp. If you are a

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is www.betterhelp.com difference to get

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10% off your first month today. Today on

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the show from Melbourne, Australia, we

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have Bessie Graham on the show. Bessie is

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an award winning entrepreneur with over 20

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years experience of working with business

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owners, with governments and large funding

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bodies to bring doing good and making

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money back together. From grassroots of

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sitting in the dirt, working with business

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owners in the Pacific Islands to the

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United nations headquarters in Geneva,

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Bessie has seen it all and brings an

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unparalleled perspective on what it means

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to make things happen and change. So

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working with people who have quote unquote

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made it but haven't found fulfillment, she

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really helps them put their time, talent

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and treasure to work in ways that align

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with their values and allow them to create

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a legacy they can really be proud of.

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Bessie teaches people to quiet the noise

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of the demands and opinions of others that

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are always swirling around leaders in

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business, nonprofit, government. Wherever

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you're leading, you know this is true. And

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she wants to help people hear their own

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voice more clearly so they can contribute.

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From a place of authenticity. She removes

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the frustration and pressure that comes

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from living someone else's idea of success

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and really replaces it with a sense of

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flow and fulfillment that can only come

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when you tap into the fulfillment of who

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you are and who you are becoming. I'm so

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excited to have this conversation with

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Bessie today. So welcome to the show.

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Bessie Graham. Hi, Bessie. A warm welcome

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to you today in Melbourne, Australia.

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Thanks for joining us. Thank you. I'm glad

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that we could make the time zones work. I

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am, too, and Melbourne held a special

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place in my heart because I got to visit

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there years ago, and we were just talking

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about how it's so diverse, and I love that

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it's got great coffee. I saw Taylor Swift

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has been there, so it's all over

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everybody's feed. Oh, yeah. Biggest

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concert she's ever had. I saw that. Yeah.

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I got to take my daughter for her 16th

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birthday trip to Rio to see Taylor Swift.

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We were going to do a birthday trip

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anyway, and so it was cheaper to take her

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all the way to Rio than it was to see her

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20 minutes away at Levi Stadium because

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the tickets here were insane. It was like

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$800 for the nosebleed or like $20,000 for

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the front row. Oh, my. So it was actually

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cheaper to do $200 front row tickets in

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Rio and just use airline and hotel points,

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and we had a blast. Amazing. A lot of fun.

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You've created a memory. Yeah, absolutely.

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No, we keep seeing all the swifties having

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fun there in Melbourne, so it does make me

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want to take another trip there. Well, I'm

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excited to talk to you today because

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occasionally you come across these people

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who understand what it really means to

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work in business in a way to where it can

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be something of a purpose and not just

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making profit, although there's nothing

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wrong with making profit. Everybody's got

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to pay the bills, take care of their

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family. I mean, that's just what it means

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to live this human life. But you've got a

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couple of decades of experience in sort of

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bridging this gap between profit and

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purpose. So I'd love for you to kind of

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share. Is there, like, a moment or an

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experience that sort of initially ignited

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your passions for sort of this doing good

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and making money together? It's

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interesting because when you use words

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like purpose or meaning, any of those

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types of aspects, I would say that for me,

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it goes right back to being a kid in that

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there was always this sense in me of not

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fitting into neat little boxes or what the

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expectations were. I was not one neat

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thing. I used to always say, even when I

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was a kid, that I was a walking

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contradiction. I would have really

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different parts of myself that felt

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equally true and that other people might

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find confusing. And so in finding this

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world of being able to, through my career,

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do what I talk about as merging money and

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meaning, or helping people do good and

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make money, that allowed me to feel like I

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could bring that fullness of those

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different parts of myself. And so it's

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been ever present in my adult life and

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career. But I would say that it's the

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outworking of me just being me, which is a

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beautiful opportunity. And to have found

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that piece, which really does, I think,

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allow you to sustain something, because

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when you're trying to do something that's

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at ods or where there's some internal

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dissonance for you, you might be able to

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do it for a while through sheer force of

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will, but you end up getting exhausted and

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worn down. Yeah, I think when somebody

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brings their full, authentic self to their

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career, it's a whole different way of

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leading and living. And so one of the

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themes of our podcast is bringing our

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differences around the table, making sure

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we know each of us has unique differences.

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That's what it means to be human. And so I

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know that your career has taken know

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outside of Australia, you've done some

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pretty incredible things in your career.

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And so I'd love to know how that sort of

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informed you as a leader and the work that

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you do. What kind of an impact did living

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abroad have on your career and yourself?

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Yeah, so I would say that a little bit

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like you, having experienced different

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cultures, helps to have that bigger, more

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expansive idea of what the world is and

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different perspectives, and to not be sort

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of sheltered or exist in such a way that

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your assumptions are that everyone thinks

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the same way, everyone experiences

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situations in the same way. And that began

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for me, more from a childhood perspective,

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related to the issues around social

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justice. So my mum in particular always

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opened our eyes to the fact that you

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shouldn't compare yourself to the people

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directly around you, but to the people in

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the rest of the world. So even though

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within our circles we would have been the

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people with the least money, she would

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constantly say to us, if you have running

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water and electricity, you are within the

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wealthiest people in the world. So have

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some perspective. Right? So she was always

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opening, there's nothing wrong with

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looking around and comparing. In fact, it

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can give you perspective, but you need to

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be quite intentional about who you're

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comparing yourself to so that that kind of

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occurs. So there was always that curiosity

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and I suppose the expansive aspect of

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others perspectives. I then had the

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beautiful opportunity of, when I finished

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high school, I said I was going to take

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one year off to travel. I ended up not

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going to university till four years after

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and did lots of traveling, went to a whole

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bunch of different countries. And that set

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in motion, I suppose, the perspective that

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now, no matter what happens or who I work

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with or what you see on the news, I know

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people in it would now be about 62

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different countries that I have people who

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I genuinely know and care about, and that

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connects you to the world in a different

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way. And that, I think, is one of the

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pieces that certainly in your work, in my

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work, it helps us when we work with

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leaders to get them to do the zooming out

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and zooming in. They're like, take a

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different perspective, think about this

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from a different angle. So that sort of

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has been consistently something I very

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consciously make sure is part of my work,

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because like you, I have a deep respect

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for diversity. Not in a token way, and not

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trying to tick a box and kind of say, oh,

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who's not in this conversation? And we

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need to fill certain categories, but

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simply from the perspective of it is the

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way that we will. If we have people with

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different experiences of life, different

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ways they look at things, it's a much

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broader conversation than just gender.

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It's a much broader conversation than

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religion. It's about our ways of looking

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at the world and who we are. I want as

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many of those voices in a conversation as

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possible. Yeah, absolutely. It does make

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us better as leaders. We make better

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decisions, especially if in business, we

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have a product that we want to make

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available to people globally. We want

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perspectives on how is that product going

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to land in Melbourne, Australia, versus

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somewhere in Africa versus somewhere in

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the United States. All of those

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perspectives matter. But also, business

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doesn't have to just be where we treat

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people like factory workers. We do have

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factories that produce products, but we

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don't have to treat the people that way

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like cogs in a wheel. And so what are some

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ways that leadership can be a little more

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human and take into account purpose, even

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inside the workplace for people? I think a

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lot of it comes back to the role that a

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leader needs to take seriously themselves,

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of being able to pause long enough to

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start to unpack or maybe bring to the

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surface some of those unconscious beliefs

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they actually have about the purpose of

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business. Because so many people, if you

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were just in a conversation, it was on the

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weekend, and you were all at an event

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together, they might, on the surface,

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straight away say, yeah, I totally agree

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with you. Business is far more than just

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making money. So they might, at the

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surface level, be excited and say they

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agree with you. But when you dig a little

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deeper into the way people are making

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decisions, how they're spending money,

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what they're prioritizing, there is this

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deep unconscious belief that has taken

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hold, particularly since the 70s when

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Friedman brought in this idea of

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shareholder primacy. So the maximization

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of profit started to be spoken about as if

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it was the law. It was always true and

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always would be, and yet it actually

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wasn't. It's not the roots of business.

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It's not commerce, trade, bartering. These

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are deeply human things that we have

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always done. But what I find is the first

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step for us as leaders is to actually

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start to uncover where is there a

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disconnect that actually my behavior, my

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priorities, my decision making is

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demonstrating that I do actually at least

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have a part of me that thinks business is

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about how do I make as much money as

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possible and treat a whole bunch of

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uncomfortable things or expensive things

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as an externality and not the problem of

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the business. And once we start there with

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that mindset piece and the beliefs about

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the purpose of business, then a whole

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bunch of other conversations can happen.

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But unless we start with that piece, we're

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never really having the same conversation

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because you can do a whole lot of work

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with a leader in their business, and then

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a particularly important decision or a

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difficult situation will emerge and

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suddenly I'll hear people saying things

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like, well, that's lovely, Bessie, but I

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am running a business here, not a charity.

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So we're going to have to put that on

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pause and get back to it. When things go

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back to normal or when things calm down,

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those types of comments demonstrate to me

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that you're still seeing the contribution

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or the meaning side as being a nice to

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have when times are good and when you have

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excess cash or time in the business and it

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hasn't actually been integrated into how

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you think about the decisions you're

305
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making in those core business. Good. You

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know, one of the things I train on in

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leadership summits that I conduct in the

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company that I work for here in Silicon

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Valley, and I go all around the world, the

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UK, I'm about to head to Taiwan and

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wherever people are in the world, it's the

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same. When we're listening to people,

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whether it's our direct reports, our

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peers, our boss, our family members, we're

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usually listening for three things, and

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that's facts, feelings and values. And

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you're talking a lot about values and how

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those impact business leaders and

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decisions that people make. It's something

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we don't think about. We don't even

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consciously often think about our values,

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and we often don't say them out loud. But

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listening for what motivates people in

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business or in social enterprise is really

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important, because just like you said,

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when it comes down to making hard

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decisions, people will make those based on

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their values. So for you and for others

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that you work with, how do your values

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influence the way you live and make

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decisions as a leader in business? And how

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do you encourage people to do that as

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well? So, for me, they massively

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influence. And when I work with people,

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I'm always trying to get them to a place

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where they are a massive influence in

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their life. Because again, it's these

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making something conscious, making

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something explicit that is already driving

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behavior. Often you just aren't aware of

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where that's coming from. So, values is a

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conversation, particularly in business

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settings, that is often done in such a

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superficial way that leaders will roll

345
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their eyes. When you say you want to have

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a conversation about values, they think,

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oh my goodness, this is going to be

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another one of those completely

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meaningless things where there's a poster

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on the wall. My favorite ones are always

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the integrity, honesty and the eagle on

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those types of ideas. And so we need to do

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some unlearning there of, okay, people

354
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have been talking about something like

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values in a way that didn't actually have

356
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the depth to it. When you and I are

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talking about it in relation to this

358
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question and how it's actually informing

359
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your decisions, how it is influencing the

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way you live, that is, values done in a

361
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far more meaningful or nuanced way. And so

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I always think about values from the

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perspective of Simon Sinek talked about

364
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that our values are who we are at our

365
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natural best. And I think that that is

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true. But I think that's only the starting

367
00:16:06,740 --> 00:16:09,554
place in particularly the last two and a

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bit decades. The way that I have made

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values really central in my life and in my

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work is to realize that actually by

371
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getting clear on what our core values are

372
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and then very intentionally cultivating

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what are the conditions that allow me to

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live those things out. How do I need to

375
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set up my environment or my relationships,

376
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or the time I create to be able to live in

377
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that space? That then means I can show up

378
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at my natural best, because all of those

379
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aspects around the environments we're

380
00:16:48,698 --> 00:16:50,526
creating, those conditions we cultivate

381
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for ourself, set us up to either be able

382
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to live in alignment with those values or

383
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not. So I think there's a really rich,

384
00:16:58,002 --> 00:16:59,938
much longer conversation than we can have

385
00:16:59,938 --> 00:17:03,234
today about how we identify those things

386
00:17:03,234 --> 00:17:06,994
and really name them, but they have to be

387
00:17:06,994 --> 00:17:11,366
aspects that do speak to how we behave. So

388
00:17:11,366 --> 00:17:13,158
there needs to be action related to them.

389
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They need to inform our decisions. And I

390
00:17:16,390 --> 00:17:19,622
think when we get really clear on those

391
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and always have them top of mind, they

392
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become one of the filters we use in our

393
00:17:24,454 --> 00:17:27,066
decision making to be able to go, is this

394
00:17:27,066 --> 00:17:29,338
in alignment or is it not? Because most of

395
00:17:29,338 --> 00:17:31,206
the time when I see leaders getting

396
00:17:31,206 --> 00:17:33,002
exhausted and overwhelmed, particularly

397
00:17:33,002 --> 00:17:35,374
now, and you would see this in your work

398
00:17:35,374 --> 00:17:37,854
with the fast paced changes that we're all

399
00:17:37,854 --> 00:17:40,574
having to deal with, if you don't have

400
00:17:40,574 --> 00:17:42,766
some kind of touchstone or guide to come

401
00:17:42,766 --> 00:17:47,474
back to that actually says, yes, this sits

402
00:17:47,474 --> 00:17:49,186
well with me. This is in alignment with

403
00:17:49,186 --> 00:17:52,194
who we are as an organization. You can

404
00:17:52,194 --> 00:17:54,722
talk about integrity and alignment all you

405
00:17:54,722 --> 00:17:56,786
want, but if you haven't actually

406
00:17:56,786 --> 00:18:01,030
articulated. Align to what? Moving towards

407
00:18:01,030 --> 00:18:03,846
what? That clarity is the starting place.

408
00:18:03,846 --> 00:18:07,442
So I think at our own peril, we ignore or

409
00:18:07,442 --> 00:18:10,646
make simplistic lists of what our

410
00:18:10,646 --> 00:18:13,354
company's core values are. It's a much

411
00:18:13,354 --> 00:18:16,938
more powerful conversation. Absolutely.

412
00:18:16,938 --> 00:18:19,786
Yeah. And some companies will do even a

413
00:18:19,786 --> 00:18:21,278
really great job, like you said, having it

414
00:18:21,278 --> 00:18:25,614
on the wall, making it visible on their

415
00:18:25,614 --> 00:18:27,822
website, having it constantly stated in

416
00:18:27,822 --> 00:18:30,106
certain meetings, but it really kind of

417
00:18:30,106 --> 00:18:34,398
falls apart if they mention one of their

418
00:18:34,398 --> 00:18:37,858
values is maybe inclusion, and then at the

419
00:18:37,858 --> 00:18:40,478
end of the day, they're doing nothing in

420
00:18:40,478 --> 00:18:44,338
recruiting to make sure job requests are

421
00:18:44,338 --> 00:18:46,082
going to appeal to somebody who's

422
00:18:46,082 --> 00:18:47,666
different than everybody they have, or

423
00:18:47,666 --> 00:18:50,440
there's favoritism still in the process,

424
00:18:50,440 --> 00:18:53,638
or everybody hires people they know from

425
00:18:53,638 --> 00:18:55,446
the same university where you get this

426
00:18:55,446 --> 00:18:57,974
kind of group think. And so you can say

427
00:18:57,974 --> 00:18:59,722
you value that, but at the end of the day,

428
00:18:59,722 --> 00:19:02,966
if decisions aren't made based on it, it

429
00:19:02,966 --> 00:19:05,420
doesn't really change. So kind of help us

430
00:19:05,420 --> 00:19:08,726
understand maybe sort of this decision

431
00:19:08,726 --> 00:19:11,142
cascade, how it can unlock clarity and

432
00:19:11,142 --> 00:19:14,986
decisiveness, maybe even around values. So

433
00:19:14,986 --> 00:19:17,614
what's interesting, if people wanted to

434
00:19:17,614 --> 00:19:19,486
dig into what you were just speaking about

435
00:19:19,486 --> 00:19:21,594
a little bit more, the best author that

436
00:19:21,594 --> 00:19:23,886
I've always really loved reading around

437
00:19:23,886 --> 00:19:26,610
this topic is Patrick Lenchoni, and in his

438
00:19:26,610 --> 00:19:29,682
book, the advantage, he talks about four

439
00:19:29,682 --> 00:19:31,566
different types of values. And some of the

440
00:19:31,566 --> 00:19:32,994
pieces that you've spoken about there that

441
00:19:32,994 --> 00:19:37,326
can end up undermining our authority or

442
00:19:37,326 --> 00:19:39,554
people's respect or trust in us as a

443
00:19:39,554 --> 00:19:41,878
leader is when we take something that is

444
00:19:41,878 --> 00:19:44,246
what he would call an aspirational value,

445
00:19:44,246 --> 00:19:46,662
we might know that we need that as a

446
00:19:46,662 --> 00:19:49,478
company to succeed in the future, or we

447
00:19:49,478 --> 00:19:51,594
might want that to be part of our culture

448
00:19:51,594 --> 00:19:55,034
and we call it a core value, we name it as

449
00:19:55,034 --> 00:19:57,786
that. But there's this disconnect for our

450
00:19:57,786 --> 00:20:01,334
customers or our team where they're, hmm.

451
00:20:01,334 --> 00:20:03,674
Bessie's saying this, but every

452
00:20:03,674 --> 00:20:05,966
interaction I have, my experience with her

453
00:20:05,966 --> 00:20:08,414
or this company is actually the opposite.

454
00:20:08,414 --> 00:20:10,526
And now, even if I'm not conscious of it,

455
00:20:10,526 --> 00:20:13,306
I start to mistrust her because I'm

456
00:20:13,306 --> 00:20:16,238
hearing one thing and seeing another. And

457
00:20:16,238 --> 00:20:18,914
so reading some of Lent, Joni's work, and

458
00:20:18,914 --> 00:20:20,686
even if people don't want to get the book,

459
00:20:20,686 --> 00:20:22,514
there's a Harvard Business Review article.

460
00:20:22,514 --> 00:20:24,146
Maybe I'll share the links with you and

461
00:20:24,146 --> 00:20:26,386
you can pop it in the notes. But that's a

462
00:20:26,386 --> 00:20:28,206
good place for people to start to pull

463
00:20:28,206 --> 00:20:30,966
apart some of these things, because we

464
00:20:30,966 --> 00:20:32,454
need to have tools, whether it's something

465
00:20:32,454 --> 00:20:34,066
like you've mentioned, the decision

466
00:20:34,066 --> 00:20:36,406
cascade, which my partner and I created

467
00:20:36,406 --> 00:20:38,386
and have been using for decades, or

468
00:20:38,386 --> 00:20:40,410
whether it's some frameworks around

469
00:20:40,410 --> 00:20:43,802
different types of values as leaders,

470
00:20:43,802 --> 00:20:46,006
these types of tools. So in ancient

471
00:20:46,006 --> 00:20:47,782
Greece, they always talked about them as

472
00:20:47,782 --> 00:20:50,234
heuristics. So thinking tools, when we

473
00:20:50,234 --> 00:20:53,454
have these to call on, it allows us to be

474
00:20:53,454 --> 00:20:55,326
more effective in our leadership, because

475
00:20:55,326 --> 00:20:58,206
on the fly, when a situation happens, you

476
00:20:58,206 --> 00:21:00,974
have a preformed structure in your mind of

477
00:21:00,974 --> 00:21:04,254
how to walk through that. So from decision

478
00:21:04,254 --> 00:21:05,826
making and when it comes to something like

479
00:21:05,826 --> 00:21:09,794
a decision cascade sequence is important.

480
00:21:09,794 --> 00:21:12,782
And what I see myself doing and other

481
00:21:12,782 --> 00:21:15,300
leaders is we're the types of people who

482
00:21:15,300 --> 00:21:18,466
are. Our tendency is toward action. So we

483
00:21:18,466 --> 00:21:20,918
want to jump in. We see an opportunity. We

484
00:21:20,918 --> 00:21:22,486
want to jump in and build. We want to jump

485
00:21:22,486 --> 00:21:26,514
in and act. Part of what we do by using a

486
00:21:26,514 --> 00:21:28,714
decision cascade is to actually start to

487
00:21:28,714 --> 00:21:32,442
pull a situation or an opportunity apart

488
00:21:32,442 --> 00:21:35,306
and make a very conscious decision of what

489
00:21:35,306 --> 00:21:38,214
is the first step. So what's that first

490
00:21:38,214 --> 00:21:40,362
overarching decision that everything else

491
00:21:40,362 --> 00:21:43,806
needs to flow from that. And then once you

492
00:21:43,806 --> 00:21:45,966
go, okay, this is the primary decision.

493
00:21:45,966 --> 00:21:48,158
This is the secondary level of decisions

494
00:21:48,158 --> 00:21:51,582
and the tertiary decisions. What you are

495
00:21:51,582 --> 00:21:54,266
able to do from a leadership perspective

496
00:21:54,266 --> 00:21:57,794
is have a far smoother experience through

497
00:21:57,794 --> 00:22:00,034
your decision making. And also, when

498
00:22:00,034 --> 00:22:02,526
things aren't going well, you know how to

499
00:22:02,526 --> 00:22:04,498
unpack it and figure out where is the

500
00:22:04,498 --> 00:22:07,214
problem occurring. Rather than just being

501
00:22:07,214 --> 00:22:08,454
reactionary and going right, the whole

502
00:22:08,454 --> 00:22:10,722
thing doesn't work. We have to start from

503
00:22:10,722 --> 00:22:13,622
scratch. So I'll sort of give you a quick

504
00:22:13,622 --> 00:22:16,360
example through that. Part of what happens

505
00:22:16,360 --> 00:22:19,626
is if we as a business, have an

506
00:22:19,626 --> 00:22:21,706
opportunity to go into a new location, and

507
00:22:21,706 --> 00:22:24,566
we just jump straight into saying, great,

508
00:22:24,566 --> 00:22:27,820
we've got this opportunity to set up an

509
00:22:27,820 --> 00:22:30,602
office. I think you mentioned Indonesia

510
00:22:30,602 --> 00:22:32,746
before. So let's say we're going to go to

511
00:22:32,746 --> 00:22:35,374
Indonesia and we suddenly start to look

512
00:22:35,374 --> 00:22:38,366
for real estate and we've signed a lease

513
00:22:38,366 --> 00:22:42,206
for an office. We have made something that

514
00:22:42,206 --> 00:22:44,838
should have been a tertiary know, three

515
00:22:44,838 --> 00:22:47,534
levels down. We've made that the primary

516
00:22:47,534 --> 00:22:49,362
decision because we've now created all

517
00:22:49,362 --> 00:22:51,774
these constraints because we've signed a

518
00:22:51,774 --> 00:22:53,714
lease for a certain period of time in a

519
00:22:53,714 --> 00:22:56,914
very specific location without the other

520
00:22:56,914 --> 00:22:59,880
pieces being in place. And so from that

521
00:22:59,880 --> 00:23:03,062
place, a whole bunch of decisions are no

522
00:23:03,062 --> 00:23:06,294
longer open to us and we have restricted

523
00:23:06,294 --> 00:23:08,834
what can come from there without having to

524
00:23:08,834 --> 00:23:11,570
undo a lot of things. The decision cascade

525
00:23:11,570 --> 00:23:14,154
is that piece that allows us to go back to

526
00:23:14,154 --> 00:23:15,946
something like our core values or back to

527
00:23:15,946 --> 00:23:17,930
our vision statement as an organization.

528
00:23:17,930 --> 00:23:20,954
And, ah, an opportunity's opened up, we

529
00:23:20,954 --> 00:23:23,066
could expand into Indonesia. What are the

530
00:23:23,066 --> 00:23:24,670
things we've been talking about as a

531
00:23:24,670 --> 00:23:27,438
company? What are our core values? If, for

532
00:23:27,438 --> 00:23:29,546
example, your team have been saying that

533
00:23:29,546 --> 00:23:31,306
you've been growing too fast and people

534
00:23:31,306 --> 00:23:32,926
aren't seeing their families enough and

535
00:23:32,926 --> 00:23:35,538
they want to travel less, you might need

536
00:23:35,538 --> 00:23:37,586
to have a conversation that says, while

537
00:23:37,586 --> 00:23:39,746
this is exciting, now is not the time for

538
00:23:39,746 --> 00:23:43,620
us to expand geographically. So this type

539
00:23:43,620 --> 00:23:48,294
of way of approaching your decisions is a

540
00:23:48,294 --> 00:23:51,954
much more helpful way, as I said, to not

541
00:23:51,954 --> 00:23:55,154
charge down a course and end up putting

542
00:23:55,154 --> 00:23:56,786
yourselves in positions you could have

543
00:23:56,786 --> 00:24:00,842
avoided simply by thinking differently.

544
00:24:00,842 --> 00:24:04,266
So, good. Yeah. There's this, like saying,

545
00:24:04,266 --> 00:24:06,166
I hear some Americans say it's getting the

546
00:24:06,166 --> 00:24:10,182
cart before the horse. Yes. It's just the

547
00:24:10,182 --> 00:24:12,474
priorities. You got to start with the main

548
00:24:12,474 --> 00:24:13,946
idea, like, what are we about here? And

549
00:24:13,946 --> 00:24:15,374
that's what you're leading people to,

550
00:24:15,374 --> 00:24:17,886
whether it's in business or nonprofit. Why

551
00:24:17,886 --> 00:24:20,302
are you making these decisions and not

552
00:24:20,302 --> 00:24:22,894
just having. Well, that could happen, but

553
00:24:22,894 --> 00:24:24,834
just because I tell my teenager, just

554
00:24:24,834 --> 00:24:27,682
because you can, doesn't mean you should,

555
00:24:27,682 --> 00:24:30,306
right, exactly. Yeah, you've worked. Even

556
00:24:30,306 --> 00:24:32,706
if you pause and you say no, it doesn't

557
00:24:32,706 --> 00:24:34,882
mean you're saying no forever. It just

558
00:24:34,882 --> 00:24:39,254
means not now. Totally no, 100%. You've

559
00:24:39,254 --> 00:24:40,818
worked, though, not just in Australia,

560
00:24:40,818 --> 00:24:42,518
you've worked in some other places, kind

561
00:24:42,518 --> 00:24:44,694
of more on a grassroots level, also kind

562
00:24:44,694 --> 00:24:48,758
of more prestigious. Know where you were

563
00:24:48,758 --> 00:24:51,066
with the United Nations a bit. And so I'd

564
00:24:51,066 --> 00:24:54,150
love to know some of the common

565
00:24:54,150 --> 00:24:55,818
misconceptions maybe that you find around

566
00:24:55,818 --> 00:24:57,686
kind of social entrepreneurship that

567
00:24:57,686 --> 00:24:59,126
you've encountered in these different

568
00:24:59,126 --> 00:25:03,030
kinds of settings. Yeah. So I've very

569
00:25:03,030 --> 00:25:05,442
intentionally always gone to both of those

570
00:25:05,442 --> 00:25:08,094
extremes. I like to work at the level of

571
00:25:08,094 --> 00:25:10,282
looking at the whole system. So big

572
00:25:10,282 --> 00:25:11,566
international funders as you mentioned,

573
00:25:11,566 --> 00:25:14,094
like the United nations or I do a lot of

574
00:25:14,094 --> 00:25:17,554
advisory work with government. That piece

575
00:25:17,554 --> 00:25:20,098
is important and I think often missed in

576
00:25:20,098 --> 00:25:22,062
the world of something like social

577
00:25:22,062 --> 00:25:25,626
entrepreneurship or nonprofits, where it

578
00:25:25,626 --> 00:25:29,702
stays grassroots and often fails to look

579
00:25:29,702 --> 00:25:32,134
up at that broader system and understand,

580
00:25:32,134 --> 00:25:33,446
okay, what are the constraints, what are

581
00:25:33,446 --> 00:25:35,314
the opportunities, what's happening,

582
00:25:35,314 --> 00:25:38,634
what's our part within the system? And so

583
00:25:38,634 --> 00:25:40,922
for me, it's an intentional decision to

584
00:25:40,922 --> 00:25:43,670
always be someone who bridges those two

585
00:25:43,670 --> 00:25:46,794
worlds. I don't want to just be systemic

586
00:25:46,794 --> 00:25:50,154
and big picture and lose touch with what's

587
00:25:50,154 --> 00:25:51,326
actually happening on the ground and what

588
00:25:51,326 --> 00:25:54,334
the reality is. So I always talk to people

589
00:25:54,334 --> 00:25:58,814
about, I'm very conscious of making sure I

590
00:25:58,814 --> 00:26:01,726
have enough interactions, one on one, with

591
00:26:01,726 --> 00:26:04,026
individual founders, or one of the pieces

592
00:26:04,026 --> 00:26:06,706
that's often in my bio that is important

593
00:26:06,706 --> 00:26:08,734
to me is that I've spent a lot of time

594
00:26:08,734 --> 00:26:11,470
sitting in the dirt across the Pacific

595
00:26:11,470 --> 00:26:13,346
islands, whether it's with coconut farmers

596
00:26:13,346 --> 00:26:15,474
or on coffee plantations or whatever that

597
00:26:15,474 --> 00:26:19,174
piece is. That means when I'm then acting

598
00:26:19,174 --> 00:26:21,506
as an impact investor, or I have my

599
00:26:21,506 --> 00:26:22,870
philanthropic hat on, or I'm doing

600
00:26:22,870 --> 00:26:25,654
government advisory work, while someone

601
00:26:25,654 --> 00:26:28,102
else might be talking academically about

602
00:26:28,102 --> 00:26:31,066
how something happens, I can say, well,

603
00:26:31,066 --> 00:26:32,758
actually, when I was in the back of a

604
00:26:32,758 --> 00:26:36,394
truck traveling from the farm to the port,

605
00:26:36,394 --> 00:26:38,246
I know that these are the challenges

606
00:26:38,246 --> 00:26:41,674
someone's seeing. So I would say, in

607
00:26:41,674 --> 00:26:43,422
answer to your question, sort of some of

608
00:26:43,422 --> 00:26:46,062
those patterns that I think are really

609
00:26:46,062 --> 00:26:50,042
important for all of us as leaders to push

610
00:26:50,042 --> 00:26:52,094
ourselves outside our comfort zones and

611
00:26:52,094 --> 00:26:56,034
really ensure we work into the way we lead

612
00:26:56,034 --> 00:26:58,094
is to not get into, you mentioned

613
00:26:58,094 --> 00:27:01,250
groupthink before, to not just sit in such

614
00:27:01,250 --> 00:27:02,926
small, closed circles where everyone

615
00:27:02,926 --> 00:27:04,862
thinks the same way or has the same

616
00:27:04,862 --> 00:27:06,966
perspective, but to actively put ourselves

617
00:27:06,966 --> 00:27:10,966
in situations where we say, interesting.

618
00:27:10,966 --> 00:27:12,680
Now that I have that little piece of

619
00:27:12,680 --> 00:27:14,902
information, it might seem random at the

620
00:27:14,902 --> 00:27:17,446
moment, but it will come in handy later.

621
00:27:17,446 --> 00:27:20,134
So those types of things have always been

622
00:27:20,134 --> 00:27:22,666
useful for me and then played out, as I

623
00:27:22,666 --> 00:27:25,734
said later, when I've been in a situation

624
00:27:25,734 --> 00:27:29,050
investing in a company, in a country, and

625
00:27:29,050 --> 00:27:31,414
someone will use a certain piece of

626
00:27:31,414 --> 00:27:33,410
evidence to demonstrate social impact. And

627
00:27:33,410 --> 00:27:36,366
I'll say, well, I now know the questions

628
00:27:36,366 --> 00:27:38,494
to ask, because I'll say, so, when you

629
00:27:38,494 --> 00:27:40,702
talk to that farmer, did they actually

630
00:27:40,702 --> 00:27:42,986
speak English? So when you've got this

631
00:27:42,986 --> 00:27:45,234
feedback or you say that they've signed

632
00:27:45,234 --> 00:27:48,686
this and given who signed it and who

633
00:27:48,686 --> 00:27:50,820
explained it or translated it to them,

634
00:27:50,820 --> 00:27:53,922
because I know the questions to ask,

635
00:27:53,922 --> 00:27:56,166
because I understand both the grassroots

636
00:27:56,166 --> 00:27:59,906
and the systemic, and I think as leaders,

637
00:27:59,906 --> 00:28:04,726
we're not paid to just show up and be on

638
00:28:04,726 --> 00:28:07,926
the clock. We're paid for how we think,

639
00:28:07,926 --> 00:28:10,106
how we see the world, what opportunities

640
00:28:10,106 --> 00:28:12,762
do we spot, or where do we see risk that

641
00:28:12,762 --> 00:28:16,202
someone else doesn't see? And the best way

642
00:28:16,202 --> 00:28:20,086
to bring the most value as a leader is to

643
00:28:20,086 --> 00:28:23,194
expand what you understand and how you can

644
00:28:23,194 --> 00:28:24,366
bridge different worlds, because that's

645
00:28:24,366 --> 00:28:26,826
what innovation is. Two previously

646
00:28:26,826 --> 00:28:29,022
unconnected things now connect them.

647
00:28:29,022 --> 00:28:31,674
Something doesn't have to be completely

648
00:28:31,674 --> 00:28:33,566
unique and never thought of before, but

649
00:28:33,566 --> 00:28:35,570
you're wanting to do that, bringing things

650
00:28:35,570 --> 00:28:38,898
together that were not seen. Huh. Imagine

651
00:28:38,898 --> 00:28:42,674
what would happen if we combined those.

652
00:28:42,674 --> 00:28:47,826
So, good. Yeah. It takes me back to my

653
00:28:47,826 --> 00:28:49,718
own. I also had an experience with the UN,

654
00:28:49,718 --> 00:28:51,126
where I worked as sort of a liaison with

655
00:28:51,126 --> 00:28:53,126
them in the indonesian tsunami, because I

656
00:28:53,126 --> 00:28:54,646
was working in community development in

657
00:28:54,646 --> 00:28:57,846
that area when the tsunami hit that. So,

658
00:28:57,846 --> 00:28:59,178
you know, you have people from all over

659
00:28:59,178 --> 00:29:03,014
the world, big ngos coming in, and the

660
00:29:03,014 --> 00:29:07,194
coordination efforts were really just like

661
00:29:07,194 --> 00:29:09,066
a ginormous effort, like I've never seen,

662
00:29:09,066 --> 00:29:10,926
because it was such a large disaster and

663
00:29:10,926 --> 00:29:14,174
had so little infrastructure to begin with

664
00:29:14,174 --> 00:29:17,120
to sustain anything like that kind of

665
00:29:17,120 --> 00:29:19,246
world group of people coming in from all

666
00:29:19,246 --> 00:29:22,766
these places. But the value of that was, I

667
00:29:22,766 --> 00:29:25,758
worked for a grassroots, indonesian based

668
00:29:25,758 --> 00:29:27,890
nonprofit, so I was fluent in the language

669
00:29:27,890 --> 00:29:29,266
and understood the culture because I'd

670
00:29:29,266 --> 00:29:30,866
worked there for a long time, which had

671
00:29:30,866 --> 00:29:34,510
its own dynamics under sharia law. For

672
00:29:34,510 --> 00:29:36,594
westerners, it was a hard environment to

673
00:29:36,594 --> 00:29:38,626
even immerse myself in, to do the work

674
00:29:38,626 --> 00:29:40,326
that I did. But I had spent quite a bit of

675
00:29:40,326 --> 00:29:42,342
time sort of honing all of that and

676
00:29:42,342 --> 00:29:44,662
building relationships. But I do remember

677
00:29:44,662 --> 00:29:47,026
sometimes you would see these ngos making

678
00:29:47,026 --> 00:29:48,826
decisions that clearly nobody was in the

679
00:29:48,826 --> 00:29:52,138
back of the truck, understanding just

680
00:29:52,138 --> 00:29:54,598
people, leaders coming in, making

681
00:29:54,598 --> 00:29:56,346
decisions that aren't informed. And then

682
00:29:56,346 --> 00:29:58,614
we would see the aftermath of it. Like

683
00:29:58,614 --> 00:30:02,966
boats that were made for a river that was

684
00:30:02,966 --> 00:30:04,894
intended to be in the ocean. Those are

685
00:30:04,894 --> 00:30:06,746
different. And so they ended up just

686
00:30:06,746 --> 00:30:08,926
turning them upside down and making shops

687
00:30:08,926 --> 00:30:10,842
out of them, because Indonesians are

688
00:30:10,842 --> 00:30:12,766
innovative like that. But there was a lot

689
00:30:12,766 --> 00:30:16,218
of republic of Kuwait boats, and so, yeah,

690
00:30:16,218 --> 00:30:17,918
you just saw decisions being made that

691
00:30:17,918 --> 00:30:20,494
it's like, oh, wow, we don't want to waste

692
00:30:20,494 --> 00:30:23,314
resources by not just spending our time

693
00:30:23,314 --> 00:30:24,898
really understanding. And that could be

694
00:30:24,898 --> 00:30:27,602
anything from in a company where you get,

695
00:30:27,602 --> 00:30:29,150
like, what I'm doing right now is one of

696
00:30:29,150 --> 00:30:32,306
the things I'm working on is we have glint

697
00:30:32,306 --> 00:30:34,198
survey data, and there's a particular part

698
00:30:34,198 --> 00:30:36,294
of the data that we weren't sure what

699
00:30:36,294 --> 00:30:37,526
people meant when they said certain

700
00:30:37,526 --> 00:30:39,574
things. So now I have focus groups going

701
00:30:39,574 --> 00:30:42,178
on here in the office in Silicon Valley.

702
00:30:42,178 --> 00:30:43,738
I'm going to be doing that in Taiwan when

703
00:30:43,738 --> 00:30:45,722
I go there. And it's just asking our

704
00:30:45,722 --> 00:30:48,086
people, what did you mean when you

705
00:30:48,086 --> 00:30:50,006
answered these ways? Like, we don't know

706
00:30:50,006 --> 00:30:52,010
specifically who said what, but just the

707
00:30:52,010 --> 00:30:54,266
data on there that aren't people, and then

708
00:30:54,266 --> 00:30:56,826
there's enough people that said it. So

709
00:30:56,826 --> 00:30:59,486
we're just asking people to share, because

710
00:30:59,486 --> 00:31:01,722
as leaders, like you said, we make

711
00:31:01,722 --> 00:31:03,662
decisions, and our decisions, if they're

712
00:31:03,662 --> 00:31:07,694
not informed by actual how things work, we

713
00:31:07,694 --> 00:31:09,746
make bad decisions. So what are some of

714
00:31:09,746 --> 00:31:11,234
the things that you've learned along the

715
00:31:11,234 --> 00:31:13,326
way in terms of just in addition to what

716
00:31:13,326 --> 00:31:15,554
you're saying or advice you give to people

717
00:31:15,554 --> 00:31:17,254
about people, how they can have a little

718
00:31:17,254 --> 00:31:20,934
more clarity when they make decisions? So

719
00:31:20,934 --> 00:31:22,578
the first thing that comes to mind, and

720
00:31:22,578 --> 00:31:25,026
we've actually woven this into our company

721
00:31:25,026 --> 00:31:27,986
core values, there was an amazing woman.

722
00:31:27,986 --> 00:31:30,806
She's passed away now, called Pamela

723
00:31:30,806 --> 00:31:32,314
hardigan. I'm not sure if you're familiar

724
00:31:32,314 --> 00:31:34,486
with her, but she had this beautiful

725
00:31:34,486 --> 00:31:36,586
phrase that she used where she would say,

726
00:31:36,586 --> 00:31:39,738
you need to apprentice with the problem.

727
00:31:39,738 --> 00:31:42,042
And that piece of the example you just

728
00:31:42,042 --> 00:31:43,662
gave, being a beautiful example, don't

729
00:31:43,662 --> 00:31:46,954
just assume you understand something.

730
00:31:46,954 --> 00:31:48,782
Don't think that good intentions are good

731
00:31:48,782 --> 00:31:51,066
enough. Well, I was trying to help. So

732
00:31:51,066 --> 00:31:53,566
surely that boat, that was for the ocean,

733
00:31:53,566 --> 00:31:55,514
you should be thankful because I'm very

734
00:31:55,514 --> 00:31:58,354
generous and was helping you. These pieces

735
00:31:58,354 --> 00:32:01,246
of stopping and saying, how do we need to

736
00:32:01,246 --> 00:32:02,466
apprentice with the problem? Where do we

737
00:32:02,466 --> 00:32:04,642
come at this from curiosity? Where do we

738
00:32:04,642 --> 00:32:06,614
ask a question and have a conversation,

739
00:32:06,614 --> 00:32:09,650
rather than assume we know best and then

740
00:32:09,650 --> 00:32:13,622
impose ourselves on people or situations

741
00:32:13,622 --> 00:32:17,122
that, as your starting point, is always a

742
00:32:17,122 --> 00:32:18,966
brilliant way to. You're never going to

743
00:32:18,966 --> 00:32:21,398
get it perfectly right. It's a bit like

744
00:32:21,398 --> 00:32:23,130
parenting. There will be things that our

745
00:32:23,130 --> 00:32:26,134
children are deeply hurt by and

746
00:32:26,134 --> 00:32:27,734
disappointed in what we've done,

747
00:32:27,734 --> 00:32:29,274
regardless of what our intentions are and

748
00:32:29,274 --> 00:32:32,554
how we do our best? Right. So in none of

749
00:32:32,554 --> 00:32:34,926
this, am I trying to make leaders feel

750
00:32:34,926 --> 00:32:36,560
like, oh, my goodness, I've got to be

751
00:32:36,560 --> 00:32:38,862
perfect. But I always say, you need to

752
00:32:38,862 --> 00:32:40,942
hold these two. This goes back to your

753
00:32:40,942 --> 00:32:43,214
both and mindset. Right. So as a leader,

754
00:32:43,214 --> 00:32:45,850
being able to hold two things that seem

755
00:32:45,850 --> 00:32:47,700
contradictory and say they're equally

756
00:32:47,700 --> 00:32:50,274
true, I think that when we are trying to

757
00:32:50,274 --> 00:32:52,178
move into this world and be more conscious

758
00:32:52,178 --> 00:32:55,362
of the impact we're having in a flow on

759
00:32:55,362 --> 00:32:57,926
way in the world, in the work that we do,

760
00:32:57,926 --> 00:33:02,278
we need to hold in our minds the piece of

761
00:33:02,278 --> 00:33:04,374
how do we have a designerly disposition.

762
00:33:04,374 --> 00:33:08,082
So how do we be willing to try just pilot,

763
00:33:08,082 --> 00:33:12,122
prototype, test things, but do that in a

764
00:33:12,122 --> 00:33:15,066
way that also holds what Rattel, I'm not

765
00:33:15,066 --> 00:33:17,722
sure whether you've read any of the work

766
00:33:17,722 --> 00:33:19,494
around what's called wicked problems that

767
00:33:19,494 --> 00:33:22,494
Rattel wrote many years ago, but in there

768
00:33:22,494 --> 00:33:25,038
he talks about if you are intervening in a

769
00:33:25,038 --> 00:33:27,182
system or in a position where there are

770
00:33:27,182 --> 00:33:30,350
these deeply complex problems, then you

771
00:33:30,350 --> 00:33:33,274
have no right to be wrong. And people can

772
00:33:33,274 --> 00:33:35,426
freak out when they hear that. But I think

773
00:33:35,426 --> 00:33:38,482
when you hold designly disposition and no

774
00:33:38,482 --> 00:33:42,178
right to be wrong together, what it allows

775
00:33:42,178 --> 00:33:45,694
you to do is say, how would we test or

776
00:33:45,694 --> 00:33:48,194
prototype this without actually really

777
00:33:48,194 --> 00:33:50,902
raising expectations for a group of people

778
00:33:50,902 --> 00:33:54,246
that have then come to rely on us? And we

779
00:33:54,246 --> 00:33:56,374
actually didn't know what we were doing,

780
00:33:56,374 --> 00:33:58,614
and we didn't yet have sign off or budget

781
00:33:58,614 --> 00:34:00,806
to continue to do that. So we probably

782
00:34:00,806 --> 00:34:02,794
shouldn't have talked a big game yet.

783
00:34:02,794 --> 00:34:06,134
Right. So holding two seemingly

784
00:34:06,134 --> 00:34:07,642
contradictory things in your mind at the

785
00:34:07,642 --> 00:34:11,674
same time, and then landing at and

786
00:34:11,674 --> 00:34:15,406
continuing to work your model or your

787
00:34:15,406 --> 00:34:18,062
design until you get to a place where

788
00:34:18,062 --> 00:34:21,374
those two things can coexist, that is the

789
00:34:21,374 --> 00:34:23,790
most effective way to step into this

790
00:34:23,790 --> 00:34:27,278
space. So I think some of those ideas

791
00:34:27,278 --> 00:34:29,026
apprenticing with the problem, learning to

792
00:34:29,026 --> 00:34:30,946
have that designly disposition, be willing

793
00:34:30,946 --> 00:34:34,062
to play and try and not being scared of

794
00:34:34,062 --> 00:34:37,030
failing, but also taking seriously your

795
00:34:37,030 --> 00:34:39,522
responsibilities. Those pieces, when they

796
00:34:39,522 --> 00:34:42,434
dance together, create a really

797
00:34:42,434 --> 00:34:44,054
energizing, exciting culture for people

798
00:34:44,054 --> 00:34:46,786
because they can try new things, they can

799
00:34:46,786 --> 00:34:50,022
explore, but they also feel that sense of

800
00:34:50,022 --> 00:34:52,250
the weight, if you like, but in a positive

801
00:34:52,250 --> 00:34:54,266
way, of there is responsibility here, and

802
00:34:54,266 --> 00:34:56,166
I want to act with integrity. I want to be

803
00:34:56,166 --> 00:34:58,234
proud of what we're building. We don't

804
00:34:58,234 --> 00:35:01,386
want to fall into that trap of that black

805
00:35:01,386 --> 00:35:03,946
and white aspect of business, being that

806
00:35:03,946 --> 00:35:05,806
for us to win, someone else has to lose,

807
00:35:05,806 --> 00:35:08,106
or it's on the back of someone else being

808
00:35:08,106 --> 00:35:09,854
exploited. That's not what we're trying to

809
00:35:09,854 --> 00:35:11,886
do. And so I think some of those pieces

810
00:35:11,886 --> 00:35:14,754
are good ways to start as a leader in your

811
00:35:14,754 --> 00:35:17,858
own culture, to say, here's what we want

812
00:35:17,858 --> 00:35:21,442
to be moving towards. What are the types

813
00:35:21,442 --> 00:35:24,482
of ways we could run a project, or how we

814
00:35:24,482 --> 00:35:27,782
could explore opportunities in a different

815
00:35:27,782 --> 00:35:30,440
way that holds these two pieces in our

816
00:35:30,440 --> 00:35:37,254
mind. So good. I think a lot of leaders

817
00:35:37,254 --> 00:35:42,026
we. See are. Working in such a way as to

818
00:35:42,026 --> 00:35:45,210
where they're kind of burning out. Because

819
00:35:45,210 --> 00:35:46,986
especially if you're doing, going above

820
00:35:46,986 --> 00:35:52,106
and beyond, like in business, for example,

821
00:35:52,106 --> 00:35:55,146
there's deadlines to make, there's direct

822
00:35:55,146 --> 00:35:57,130
reports to make sure you're caring for and

823
00:35:57,130 --> 00:35:58,762
motivating, and especially middle

824
00:35:58,762 --> 00:36:01,454
management, kind of sort of a huge part of

825
00:36:01,454 --> 00:36:04,286
the job of these middle management to make

826
00:36:04,286 --> 00:36:06,266
sure they're continuing to motivate

827
00:36:06,266 --> 00:36:08,722
workforce. And then they're having to

828
00:36:08,722 --> 00:36:10,866
maybe pass down decisions that they may or

829
00:36:10,866 --> 00:36:13,074
may not have agreed with and say it in a

830
00:36:13,074 --> 00:36:14,978
way that their direct reports can receive

831
00:36:14,978 --> 00:36:16,418
when they may feel that they're burning

832
00:36:16,418 --> 00:36:18,182
their own direct reports out. Because

833
00:36:18,182 --> 00:36:20,674
business can be hard at times. And then

834
00:36:20,674 --> 00:36:22,774
leaders have this sort of mental load that

835
00:36:22,774 --> 00:36:27,046
they carry. So have you seen leaders where

836
00:36:27,046 --> 00:36:28,906
they want to do the right thing? They want

837
00:36:28,906 --> 00:36:31,766
to be leaders who don't just care about

838
00:36:31,766 --> 00:36:34,474
profit, but to add on purpose just feels

839
00:36:34,474 --> 00:36:38,714
too much. It feels like an overload. Have

840
00:36:38,714 --> 00:36:40,314
you encountered people like that? And if

841
00:36:40,314 --> 00:36:41,838
so, what have you told them? Or how have

842
00:36:41,838 --> 00:36:46,778
you helped them? I think for most business

843
00:36:46,778 --> 00:36:48,894
leaders, it still falls into that category

844
00:36:48,894 --> 00:36:52,954
where it feels like part of them would

845
00:36:52,954 --> 00:36:54,962
love for that to be something that was

846
00:36:54,962 --> 00:36:57,554
their experience at work. But it seems

847
00:36:57,554 --> 00:37:01,054
like that's another thing to do. And it

848
00:37:01,054 --> 00:37:05,334
typically is framed in a way where it's

849
00:37:05,334 --> 00:37:08,930
seen as a distraction to the primary

850
00:37:08,930 --> 00:37:11,762
strategy or something that will be an

851
00:37:11,762 --> 00:37:14,454
expense or time consuming. And that's

852
00:37:14,454 --> 00:37:17,270
really disappointing, because that is, in

853
00:37:17,270 --> 00:37:22,634
many respects, on the back of people like

854
00:37:22,634 --> 00:37:25,420
me, who for decades have been in this

855
00:37:25,420 --> 00:37:28,854
world. If what you've always seen as the

856
00:37:28,854 --> 00:37:31,200
examples of how to contribute or do

857
00:37:31,200 --> 00:37:33,802
something have been things that were

858
00:37:33,802 --> 00:37:36,698
incredibly expensive, really time

859
00:37:36,698 --> 00:37:39,306
consuming, and weren't connected to the

860
00:37:39,306 --> 00:37:42,218
core business, then that's all you've been

861
00:37:42,218 --> 00:37:43,146
demonstrated. And so you think, well,

862
00:37:43,146 --> 00:37:45,626
that's nice. And maybe if I had 10,000

863
00:37:45,626 --> 00:37:47,250
employees, I could do that, or maybe if I

864
00:37:47,250 --> 00:37:49,620
had massive cash flow, that would be an

865
00:37:49,620 --> 00:37:52,290
option, but how on earth am I going to do

866
00:37:52,290 --> 00:37:55,118
that? And so I think part of the work,

867
00:37:55,118 --> 00:37:58,146
particularly in the last two years, where

868
00:37:58,146 --> 00:38:01,362
I've been pulling together what the actual

869
00:38:01,362 --> 00:38:03,446
methodology is and saying, how do we get

870
00:38:03,446 --> 00:38:06,002
back to a place where you can be

871
00:38:06,002 --> 00:38:08,502
unapologetic about pursuing the

872
00:38:08,502 --> 00:38:10,406
competitive advantages that come from

873
00:38:10,406 --> 00:38:13,050
merging these aspects of money and

874
00:38:13,050 --> 00:38:15,958
meaning? You don't need to feel

875
00:38:15,958 --> 00:38:19,610
uncomfortable about something being

876
00:38:19,610 --> 00:38:24,494
commercially advantageous, as long as it

877
00:38:24,494 --> 00:38:27,918
is connected to growth and scaling of a

878
00:38:27,918 --> 00:38:30,094
business on the back of adding more value.

879
00:38:30,094 --> 00:38:32,746
So if we come back to this piece of when

880
00:38:32,746 --> 00:38:35,166
you're in that place of exhaustion, and it

881
00:38:35,166 --> 00:38:37,394
feels like you just couldn't add another

882
00:38:37,394 --> 00:38:40,754
thing in, it's stopping and saying, yeah,

883
00:38:40,754 --> 00:38:42,962
and you shouldn't add another thing in,

884
00:38:42,962 --> 00:38:45,310
but maybe you could run your business

885
00:38:45,310 --> 00:38:46,614
differently. And even if you're at that

886
00:38:46,614 --> 00:38:48,726
level of middle management, because that,

887
00:38:48,726 --> 00:38:51,350
as you said, can be a very difficult

888
00:38:51,350 --> 00:38:55,494
position to be in. It's figuring out where

889
00:38:55,494 --> 00:38:57,718
do you have influence and control? What

890
00:38:57,718 --> 00:39:02,090
are the decisions you can actually be

891
00:39:02,090 --> 00:39:05,674
shaping. And if there's a report, there's

892
00:39:05,674 --> 00:39:07,546
a directive coming down that you're going

893
00:39:07,546 --> 00:39:09,510
to need to share with your team and you

894
00:39:09,510 --> 00:39:11,614
fundamentally don't agree with it, but it

895
00:39:11,614 --> 00:39:16,058
has to be played out. You can shape how

896
00:39:16,058 --> 00:39:18,046
that's shared with your team or exactly

897
00:39:18,046 --> 00:39:20,142
how it's executed within your team, and

898
00:39:20,142 --> 00:39:22,714
whether there's conversations about

899
00:39:22,714 --> 00:39:25,546
figuring out, right, let's not turn into

900
00:39:25,546 --> 00:39:27,346
being every person for themselves, but how

901
00:39:27,346 --> 00:39:30,434
do we, as our own little team, talk this

902
00:39:30,434 --> 00:39:33,294
through and divide up the tasks so that it

903
00:39:33,294 --> 00:39:35,206
doesn't actually have a detrimental effect

904
00:39:35,206 --> 00:39:38,662
on us? Or how do you, as the leader of

905
00:39:38,662 --> 00:39:41,590
your individual team, even within a bigger

906
00:39:41,590 --> 00:39:44,582
organization, cultivate that space where

907
00:39:44,582 --> 00:39:46,754
people do feel, for example,

908
00:39:46,754 --> 00:39:48,610
psychologically safe, where they are able

909
00:39:48,610 --> 00:39:50,700
to come and talk to you when it's

910
00:39:50,700 --> 00:39:53,146
difficult? Now, there will be constraints

911
00:39:53,146 --> 00:39:55,674
to that depending on what your position

912
00:39:55,674 --> 00:39:58,522
is, and I absolutely acknowledge that. I

913
00:39:58,522 --> 00:40:01,690
think regardless of where your leadership

914
00:40:01,690 --> 00:40:03,434
position is in the organization, though,

915
00:40:03,434 --> 00:40:05,086
it's starting with those pieces of where

916
00:40:05,086 --> 00:40:06,974
do I have decision making control, or at

917
00:40:06,974 --> 00:40:10,234
least some influence, and then how do I

918
00:40:10,234 --> 00:40:13,066
shape things from there towards this idea

919
00:40:13,066 --> 00:40:16,222
of business where we're unapologetically

920
00:40:16,222 --> 00:40:19,986
pursuing both? So we're saying, okay, we

921
00:40:19,986 --> 00:40:22,334
can get to a place where, rather than

922
00:40:22,334 --> 00:40:24,258
burning out our team, because we see that,

923
00:40:24,258 --> 00:40:26,738
oh, my goodness, for us to actually be

924
00:40:26,738 --> 00:40:28,934
able to reduce costs and increase revenue

925
00:40:28,934 --> 00:40:30,966
and get that profit up, we're going to

926
00:40:30,966 --> 00:40:34,418
have to get more out of these workers.

927
00:40:34,418 --> 00:40:36,374
Shifting that perspective and saying,

928
00:40:36,374 --> 00:40:37,926
where could we innovate in the back end of

929
00:40:37,926 --> 00:40:40,794
our business model, where actually people

930
00:40:40,794 --> 00:40:42,982
could be doing less hours but being more

931
00:40:42,982 --> 00:40:44,890
productive? Or where are there pieces

932
00:40:44,890 --> 00:40:47,660
where we have something in house that

933
00:40:47,660 --> 00:40:50,998
actually, if we outsourced that, and I

934
00:40:50,998 --> 00:40:52,942
don't mean in the way of going to another

935
00:40:52,942 --> 00:40:55,530
country and paying people below a living

936
00:40:55,530 --> 00:40:58,190
wage, I mean figuring out what your core

937
00:40:58,190 --> 00:41:00,174
business is and then not being distracted

938
00:41:00,174 --> 00:41:02,750
by trying to be doing everything

939
00:41:02,750 --> 00:41:04,986
internally, all of these pieces are the

940
00:41:04,986 --> 00:41:07,714
role of a leader, whether a middle manager

941
00:41:07,714 --> 00:41:09,886
or someone actually running the company.

942
00:41:09,886 --> 00:41:12,558
It's to say, how do we change our

943
00:41:12,558 --> 00:41:13,986
perspective, starting from that place?

944
00:41:13,986 --> 00:41:15,874
That said, I do actually believe that you

945
00:41:15,874 --> 00:41:17,986
can merge money and meaning, and that I

946
00:41:17,986 --> 00:41:20,066
can get to a place where I see that

947
00:41:20,066 --> 00:41:22,566
purpose of business being, how do I know

948
00:41:22,566 --> 00:41:25,462
the value I bring? How do I understand the

949
00:41:25,462 --> 00:41:28,146
value customers want from us? And how do I

950
00:41:28,146 --> 00:41:30,554
capture value in return when it's that

951
00:41:30,554 --> 00:41:32,634
piece of delivering and capturing value

952
00:41:32,634 --> 00:41:34,662
and creating that beautiful self

953
00:41:34,662 --> 00:41:37,306
reinforcing loop where we're only growing

954
00:41:37,306 --> 00:41:39,802
on the back of adding more value, what

955
00:41:39,802 --> 00:41:44,222
that does, the delivery of value. And then

956
00:41:44,222 --> 00:41:47,360
that driving of revenue into your business

957
00:41:47,360 --> 00:41:51,102
model suddenly means you are not in the

958
00:41:51,102 --> 00:41:53,226
position of being exhausted. And seeing

959
00:41:53,226 --> 00:41:56,194
this as another thing to add on, it

960
00:41:56,194 --> 00:41:58,274
actually relieves pressure and stress,

961
00:41:58,274 --> 00:42:01,214
both financially and on that mental load,

962
00:42:01,214 --> 00:42:03,938
people's well being. So creating that win

963
00:42:03,938 --> 00:42:05,798
win actually starts from that belief about

964
00:42:05,798 --> 00:42:07,878
the purpose of business and then looking

965
00:42:07,878 --> 00:42:12,022
at the opportunity differently. Yeah. So

966
00:42:12,022 --> 00:42:14,946
good. I love it. It's definitely the

967
00:42:14,946 --> 00:42:17,190
challenge of leaders, but there are good

968
00:42:17,190 --> 00:42:18,806
things being done and there's people doing

969
00:42:18,806 --> 00:42:21,670
it well. And I think that having these

970
00:42:21,670 --> 00:42:23,190
conversations is really helpful.

971
00:42:23,190 --> 00:42:25,242
Hopefully, people listening are getting

972
00:42:25,242 --> 00:42:27,274
new thoughts because of what they've heard

973
00:42:27,274 --> 00:42:29,338
you say and your own experiences. And I

974
00:42:29,338 --> 00:42:30,814
just thank you for sharing those with us

975
00:42:30,814 --> 00:42:34,206
today. Your unique background, bringing

976
00:42:34,206 --> 00:42:36,266
your work in both kind of nonprofit

977
00:42:36,266 --> 00:42:38,558
spaces, and then with government and

978
00:42:38,558 --> 00:42:41,086
business all together, these things are

979
00:42:41,086 --> 00:42:43,198
not at ods with each other. They can work

980
00:42:43,198 --> 00:42:45,226
together, even those entities, those

981
00:42:45,226 --> 00:42:46,366
institutions, to make a difference. So

982
00:42:46,366 --> 00:42:47,566
thank you for bringing that together for

983
00:42:47,566 --> 00:42:49,586
us today. Would you let people know where

984
00:42:49,586 --> 00:42:50,834
they can find you if they want to know

985
00:42:50,834 --> 00:42:52,894
more about your work? Do you have any

986
00:42:52,894 --> 00:42:54,386
freebies to offer that people might want

987
00:42:54,386 --> 00:42:56,338
to know about. And let people know about

988
00:42:56,338 --> 00:42:58,274
that? Yeah, absolutely. So the best place

989
00:42:58,274 --> 00:43:01,526
to go is to my website, bessiegraham.com.

990
00:43:01,526 --> 00:43:04,614
So we'll share the link, and we'll also

991
00:43:04,614 --> 00:43:06,886
share a link to a free download that you

992
00:43:06,886 --> 00:43:09,560
can grab, which goes through five of the

993
00:43:09,560 --> 00:43:13,162
questions that over my 24, nearly 25 years

994
00:43:13,162 --> 00:43:15,494
of working in this space, I've found these

995
00:43:15,494 --> 00:43:18,486
patterns of five questions that decisive

996
00:43:18,486 --> 00:43:20,346
leaders need to actually have clarity on.

997
00:43:20,346 --> 00:43:21,994
And so if you want to have a read of that

998
00:43:21,994 --> 00:43:23,882
and think about, can you actually answer

999
00:43:23,882 --> 00:43:25,726
those questions? Where do you have some of

1000
00:43:25,726 --> 00:43:27,774
the gaps? That's a great place to start.

1001
00:43:27,774 --> 00:43:31,134
So head to the website and download that.

1002
00:43:31,134 --> 00:43:32,478
And from the website, you'll also be able

1003
00:43:32,478 --> 00:43:34,366
to find the podcast and any other bits you

1004
00:43:34,366 --> 00:43:37,106
might want to dig in a little bit more to

1005
00:43:37,106 --> 00:43:40,722
what I'm working on. Lovely. Thank you so

1006
00:43:40,722 --> 00:43:43,026
much, Bessie. It's been just an honor to

1007
00:43:43,026 --> 00:43:44,626
have this conversation with you. It's

1008
00:43:44,626 --> 00:43:47,086
given me new insights and a new

1009
00:43:47,086 --> 00:43:49,106
imagination for how things can be in

1010
00:43:49,106 --> 00:43:51,654
business and in nonprofit and all those

1011
00:43:51,654 --> 00:43:53,366
things together. And so just thank you for

1012
00:43:53,366 --> 00:43:54,566
this conversation. But we're going to have

1013
00:43:54,566 --> 00:43:56,578
you also hang out with our difference

1014
00:43:56,578 --> 00:43:58,406
makers. So any of you who aren't there,

1015
00:43:58,406 --> 00:44:02,054
you can check us out at ww patreon.com

1016
00:44:02,054 --> 00:44:04,026
slash a world of difference where Bessie

1017
00:44:04,026 --> 00:44:05,706
and I'll be having this conversation a

1018
00:44:05,706 --> 00:44:08,282
little deeper around the self leadership

1019
00:44:08,282 --> 00:44:10,806
piece and the resilience piece for our

1020
00:44:10,806 --> 00:44:12,474
leaders. I want to kind of dig a little

1021
00:44:12,474 --> 00:44:14,298
more into that with yeah, but for this

1022
00:44:14,298 --> 00:44:15,566
part of the conversation, just thank you

1023
00:44:15,566 --> 00:44:17,402
so much for being here today. It's been an

1024
00:44:17,402 --> 00:44:20,506
honor. My pleasure. Thank you. I really

1025
00:44:20,506 --> 00:44:22,074
learned so much from Bessie and her

1026
00:44:22,074 --> 00:44:24,318
perspective today. Just loved her stories

1027
00:44:24,318 --> 00:44:26,802
of sitting in the back of the truck,

1028
00:44:26,802 --> 00:44:29,326
right, of being the kind of leader who

1029
00:44:29,326 --> 00:44:31,454
understands that macro and micro

1030
00:44:31,454 --> 00:44:33,026
perspectives on a situation really lead to

1031
00:44:33,026 --> 00:44:35,406
the best decisions and to be more

1032
00:44:35,406 --> 00:44:37,334
inclusive in the people she listens to, to

1033
00:44:37,334 --> 00:44:40,722
make decisions that really matter, really

1034
00:44:40,722 --> 00:44:43,174
holding businesses to the values they set

1035
00:44:43,174 --> 00:44:44,946
out at the beginning to say, this is why

1036
00:44:44,946 --> 00:44:47,814
we're doing this and helping people start

1037
00:44:47,814 --> 00:44:50,202
at that beginning of the process instead

1038
00:44:50,202 --> 00:44:52,886
of making decisions way down the line and

1039
00:44:52,886 --> 00:44:55,354
forgetting why they do what they do. I

1040
00:44:55,354 --> 00:44:57,994
really do agree with her that when it

1041
00:44:57,994 --> 00:45:00,842
comes to resilience for leaders and why

1042
00:45:00,842 --> 00:45:03,326
people burn out some of the things we talk

1043
00:45:03,326 --> 00:45:05,994
a lot more deeply about in the difference

1044
00:45:05,994 --> 00:45:08,126
maker conversation. So please join us

1045
00:45:08,126 --> 00:45:11,870
there at Ww dot patreon.com a world of

1046
00:45:11,870 --> 00:45:13,226
difference where you'll get to hear that

1047
00:45:13,226 --> 00:45:14,686
exclusive interview with her. We go a lot

1048
00:45:14,686 --> 00:45:18,066
deeper into what it means to lead

1049
00:45:18,066 --> 00:45:20,110
yourself, have self leadership and

1050
00:45:20,110 --> 00:45:23,038
resilience in the face of all kinds of

1051
00:45:23,038 --> 00:45:24,398
circumstances. If I'm being honest, I

1052
00:45:24,398 --> 00:45:25,998
loved this podcast conversation you're

1053
00:45:25,998 --> 00:45:28,754
listening to now. But I even loved more

1054
00:45:28,754 --> 00:45:30,706
the conversation we had on our difference

1055
00:45:30,706 --> 00:45:32,326
maker community. So please do check that

1056
00:45:32,326 --> 00:45:35,014
out. We go into what do you do when you

1057
00:45:35,014 --> 00:45:37,506
show up as a leader and you don't look or

1058
00:45:37,506 --> 00:45:39,846
seem like they expected you to be? How do

1059
00:45:39,846 --> 00:45:41,926
you navigate that situation? What are some

1060
00:45:41,926 --> 00:45:43,706
tips and tricks she's learned along the

1061
00:45:43,706 --> 00:45:45,386
way? Who are people she's learned from

1062
00:45:45,386 --> 00:45:48,954
that have informed her how to be a leader

1063
00:45:48,954 --> 00:45:51,702
that stays true to yourself even when the

1064
00:45:51,702 --> 00:45:53,114
expectations of who you are going to be

1065
00:45:53,114 --> 00:45:54,458
looks a little different when you show up

1066
00:45:54,458 --> 00:45:57,418
in the room. And I loved that

1067
00:45:57,418 --> 00:45:59,022
conversation. I find that when we pass

1068
00:45:59,022 --> 00:46:00,606
along information to each other about

1069
00:46:00,606 --> 00:46:02,174
things we've learned and the knowledge we

1070
00:46:02,174 --> 00:46:04,274
have just from our own experience, and

1071
00:46:04,274 --> 00:46:05,954
someone like her, having a couple decades

1072
00:46:05,954 --> 00:46:09,794
of experience of not only working know,

1073
00:46:09,794 --> 00:46:12,334
having Geneva UN headquarters in her

1074
00:46:12,334 --> 00:46:14,210
background, but also Pacific islands and

1075
00:46:14,210 --> 00:46:16,210
then also the work she does there in a big

1076
00:46:16,210 --> 00:46:19,266
city and diverse Melbourne, Australia, she

1077
00:46:19,266 --> 00:46:21,414
brings all these things to the table and I

1078
00:46:21,414 --> 00:46:22,694
just really learned so much from her

1079
00:46:22,694 --> 00:46:24,054
today. I hope you did too. Whether you

1080
00:46:24,054 --> 00:46:27,382
work in business, nonprofit, government,

1081
00:46:27,382 --> 00:46:29,138
whatever your space is, I hope you've

1082
00:46:29,138 --> 00:46:30,966
gleaned from this conversation. It was

1083
00:46:30,966 --> 00:46:32,874
just so much fun to talk to her. And once

1084
00:46:32,874 --> 00:46:35,462
again, please do check out the Patreon.

1085
00:46:35,462 --> 00:46:38,730
It's ww dot patreon.com. A world of

1086
00:46:38,730 --> 00:46:41,434
difference where you're going to just love

1087
00:46:41,434 --> 00:46:43,198
that conversation we had there, where we

1088
00:46:43,198 --> 00:46:45,454
go a lot deeper on the whole resilience

1089
00:46:45,454 --> 00:46:47,406
piece, self leadership piece, and how to

1090
00:46:47,406 --> 00:46:49,134
be authentically yourself in the midst of

1091
00:46:49,134 --> 00:46:52,270
really difficult circumstances sometimes.

1092
00:46:52,270 --> 00:46:55,794
So I know that many of you are just all

1093
00:46:55,794 --> 00:46:58,430
around the world dealing with hard

1094
00:46:58,430 --> 00:47:00,674
decisions. So hopefully know bringing some

1095
00:47:00,674 --> 00:47:03,154
more congruence into the decisions that

1096
00:47:03,154 --> 00:47:05,806
you make will help alleviate some of that

1097
00:47:05,806 --> 00:47:07,362
burnout that some of you may be feeling.

1098
00:47:07,362 --> 00:47:09,286
Because I know you difference makers, you

1099
00:47:09,286 --> 00:47:12,262
are not couch potatoes. You were people

1100
00:47:12,262 --> 00:47:14,178
who do need a break and do need a day of

1101
00:47:14,178 --> 00:47:16,662
laying on the couch occasionally just to

1102
00:47:16,662 --> 00:47:20,706
watch Netflix and just eat your favorite

1103
00:47:20,706 --> 00:47:22,586
ice cream. I don't know, some of you out

1104
00:47:22,586 --> 00:47:25,740
there just need a break, but at the same

1105
00:47:25,740 --> 00:47:27,866
time doing the work that you do that helps

1106
00:47:27,866 --> 00:47:29,626
you stay congruent with who you are. I

1107
00:47:29,626 --> 00:47:31,034
hope that you lean a little more into that

1108
00:47:31,034 --> 00:47:33,066
after this conversation and that she can

1109
00:47:33,066 --> 00:47:36,214
give some of her insights, can give you

1110
00:47:36,214 --> 00:47:37,658
handles on how to move forward in a way

1111
00:47:37,658 --> 00:47:39,278
that's more authentically who you are. We

1112
00:47:39,278 --> 00:47:41,086
need you to show up as yourself in the

1113
00:47:41,086 --> 00:47:42,794
world and bring your difference to the

1114
00:47:42,794 --> 00:47:44,462
table and help us all make a difference

1115
00:47:44,462 --> 00:47:46,378
together because of who you are. And you

1116
00:47:46,378 --> 00:47:48,826
don't have to be like everybody else. So

1117
00:47:48,826 --> 00:47:51,646
I'm glad she reminded us of that today.

1118
00:47:51,646 --> 00:47:53,662
Anyway, wherever you are in the world,

1119
00:47:53,662 --> 00:47:55,702
please just take care of yourself and keep

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