Sarah McCammon on Politics, Media, and Leaving White Evangelicalism


Uncover the unexpected impact of the Trump campaign on the evangelical community as NPR journalist Sarah McCammon shares her personal journey. Her book delves into the complex experiences of those navigating a transition away from evangelicalism, offering a raw and empathetic perspective. Join us as we explore the surprising insights and vulnerabilities that shape this compelling narrative. Stay tuned for a revealing conversation that will leave you with a fresh perspective and a newfound appreciation for diverse religious experiences.
My special guest is Sarah McCammon
Sarah McCammon, a national political correspondent for NPR and co-host of the NPR Politics podcast, is recognized for her extensive coverage of political, social, and cultural divisions in America, specifically delving into the intersections of politics and religion, reproductive rights, and the conservative movement. With past experience as NPR's lead political reporter during the 2016 election cycle, assigned to the Donald Trump campaign, she offers a comprehensive understanding of the impact of Trumpism on evangelical communities. Her upcoming book, "The Exvangelicals: Loving, Living, and Leaving the White Evangelical Church," draws from her personal background growing up in white evangelicalism in the Midwest, providing a firsthand perspective on the subject matter. Sarah McCammon's authoritative insights, coupled with her personal experiences, contribute a significant and authentic viewpoint to the discussion.
Don't be afraid of questions. Try to find trusted people, whether that's people in your church or outside of it, people who are of goodwill and that love you and tell them what you're thinking about. - Sarah McCammon
In this episode, you will be able to:
- Unpacking the challenges of an evangelical upbringing - understanding the complexities and impact on personal identity.
- Exploring the influence of Trumpism on evangelical communities, shedding light on shifting ideologies and values.
- Understanding the evolving demographics of American Christianity and its implications for society and culture.
- Embracing inclusivity and diversity in religious spaces, fostering a sense of belonging and understanding for all individuals.
- Analyzing the role of media in shaping evangelical narratives, providing insight into the power of storytelling and representation.
Evolving Demographics of American Christianity
The landscape of American Christianity is undergoing a marked transformation, with shifts in demographics and the growing influence of social media. As Sarah emphasizes, these changes may result in a more liberal, secular, and diverse religious demographic. Recognizing and embracing these shifts is crucial for evolving religious spaces and fostering inclusivity and diversity within such communities.
The resources mentioned in this episode are:
- Preorder Sarah McCammon's book The Exvangelicals: Loving, Living, and Leaving the White Evangelical Church releasing on March 19, 2024. Preordering helps support the book's sales and ensures you receive it as soon as it's available.
- Follow Sarah McCammon on Twitter at @sarahmccammon for updates, insights, and discussions on her work and the topics she covers.
- Subscribe to Sarah McCammon's Substack Off the Air for nuanced conversations, personal insights, and behind-the-scenes stories from her experiences as a journalist.
- Join the Difference Makers community on Patreon to access exclusive, in-depth conversations with guests like Sarah McCammon, where you can engage with others and learn how to make a difference together.
- Engage with Sarah McCammon's work and share your thoughts on her book, her insights, and the topics discussed in the podcast to continue the conversation and contribute to making a difference.
The key moments in this episode are:
00:00:02 - Introduction to the World of Difference podcast
00:00:44 - Benefits of Therapy and Betterhelp
00:01:17 - Introduction of Sarah McCammon
00:02:27 - Sarah McCammon's Background and Book
00:03:00 - Personal Vulnerability in Writing
00:14:09 - Finding Inner Strength
00:16:34 - Impact of Trump Narrative
00:19:52 - Pressure for Perfectionism
00:23:08 - Understanding Exvangelical
00:27:43 - Impact of Evangelical Movement
00:28:58 - Rise of the Nones and Impact on Politics
00:29:36 - Factors Contributing to Change
00:30:15 - Church Response and Criticism
00:32:24 - Intimate Perspectives and Voices
00:35:22 - Inclusivity and Diverse Perspectives
00:43:25 - The Impact of Gen Z in the Election
00:44:25 - Future of Exvangelical Movement
00:46:08 - Evolving Religious Spaces
00:47:28 - Connecting with Sarah
00:48:23 - Sarah's Writing and Impact
I think it's okay to pray anytime you want. And I don't think you have to know exactly what you think about that. - Sarah McCammon
Timestamped summary of this episode:
00:00:02 - Introduction to the World of Difference podcast
Host Lori Adams Brown introduces the podcast as a platform for those who are different and want to make a difference. She also mentions the podcast's sponsor, Betterhelp, and the benefits of therapy for personal growth and self-discovery.
00:00:44 - Benefits of Therapy and Betterhelp
Brown discusses the benefits of therapy for personal growth, self-discovery, and mental well-being. She highlights the role of therapy in understanding oneself and making a positive impact on the world. Lori Adams-Brown also promotes Betterhelp as a resource for professional therapy.
00:01:17 - Introduction of Sarah McCammon
Brown introduces Sarah McCammon as a national political correspondent for NPR and co-host of the NPR Politics podcast. She outlines McCammon's work focusing on political, social, and cultural divides in America, including the intersections of politics and religion, reproductive rights, and the conservative movement.
00:02:27 - Sarah McCammon's Background and Book
Brown discusses McCammon's upcoming book, "The Exvangelicals: Loving, Living, and Leaving the White Evangelical Church," highlighting McCammon's personal experience growing up in white evangelicalism in the Midwest. Brown also mentions McCammon's diverse media appearances and her current residence in Norfolk, Virginia.
00:03:00 - Personal Vulnerability in Writing
Brown and McCammon discuss the personal vulnerability of writing about one's experiences, with McCammon sharing her
00:14:09 - Finding Inner Strength
Sarah shares a spiritual moment of finding inner strength in a challenging situation outside the church. She discusses the evangelical expectation of spiritual moments and the concept of loving one's enemies.
00:16:34 - Impact of Trump Narrative
Sarah discusses how the Trump narrative of labeling reporters as the worst people has affected the perception of evangelical whistleblowers reporting spiritual or sexual abuse in churches. She highlights the importance of criticisms from within the evangelical community.
00:19:52 - Pressure for Perfectionism
Sarah reflects on the intense pressure for perfectionism and behavior management of children within evangelical spiritual formation. She shares her experience of feeling the responsibility to be a witness for Jesus through her family's appearance and behavior.
00:23:08 - Understanding Exvangelical
Sarah explains the term "exvangelical" and addresses misconceptions about the group being exclusively non-religious or secular. She emphasizes the common experience of stepping away from evangelicalism and the complexity of the journey.
00:27:43 - Impact of Evangelical Movement
Sarah discusses the well-established impact of the evangelical movement on American politics and society. She also explores the broader societal and cultural impact of the exvangelical movement, highlighting its role in the larger shift away from religion.
00:28:58 - Rise of the Nones and Impact on Politics
The conversation delves into the growing demographic of the Nones and its potential impact on American politics, as well as the erosion of the Republican base and the rise of a more liberal and secular movement.
00:29:36 - Factors Contributing to Change
Demographic changes, social media, and the impact of Trumpism are discussed as factors contributing to the shift in evangelicalism and Christianity, with implications for both politics and culture.
00:30:15 - Church Response and Criticism
The conversation explores the responses of churches and prominent pastors to the move away from evangelicalism, as well as the criticism from Christian evangelical thinkers and the need for churches to become more open to diverse points of view.
00:32:24 - Intimate Perspectives and Voices
The dialogue emphasizes the value of intimate perspectives and granular insights from individuals raised in the evangelical world, shedding light on experiences and perspectives often overlooked in academic conversations.
00:35:22 - Inclusivity and Diverse Perspectives
The conversation highlights the need for inclusivity and the elevation of voices of people of color and women in evangelical spaces, as well as the potential impact on shaping priorities, theology, and perspectives on scriptures.
00:43:25 - The Impact of Gen Z in the Election
The conversation begins with a focus on Gen Z's influence on the upcoming election and their diverse upbringing in the digital age, reflecting on the changes happening in society.
00:44:25 - Future of Exvangelical Movement
Sarah discusses the challenges faced by younger exvangelicals in forming their own religious identity and the need for more inclusive religious spaces. She also explores potential future trends in an increasingly diverse and secularized society.
00:46:08 - Evolving Religious Spaces
The discussion shifts to the evolution of religious spaces, with a particular focus on churches genuinely welcoming non-traditional beliefs and the need for meaningful connections in an evolving society.
00:47:28 - Connecting with Sarah
Sarah shares her presence on various social media platforms, emphasizing her engagement with Substack for more nuanced conversations and insights into her life as a journalist and a mother.
00:48:23 - Sarah's Writing and Impact
The conversation concludes with a focus on Sarah's impactful writing, her vulnerability in exploring personal narratives, and the importance of amplifying her voice and perspective in the media and journalism industry.
I think there's something like that, particularly in an increasingly diverse and secularized society. I think people are always going to need connection and look for meaning, but where they find it, I think might change a little bit. - Sarah McCammon
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Lori Adams-Brown, Host & Executive Producer
A World of Difference Podcast
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Welcome to the a World of Difference
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podcast. I'm Lori Adams Brown, and this
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is. A podcast for those who are different.
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And want to make a difference. This
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podcast is sponsored by Betterhelp. If you
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10% off your first month today. Today on
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the show, we have Sarah McCammon. Sarah is
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a national political correspondent for NPR
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and co host of the NPR Politics podcast.
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Her work focuses on political, social, and
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cultural divides in America, including the
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intersections of politics and religion,
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reproductive rights, and the conservative
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movement. She's also a frequent guest host
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for NPR news magazines and has appeared on
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the BBC, CNN, PBS, and MSNBC. During the
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2016 election cycle, Sarah was NPR's lead
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political reporter, assigned to the Donald
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Trump campaign and previously reported for
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NPR member stations in Georgia, Iowa, and
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Nebraska. She has a book that's coming out
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releasing March 19. I've been able to
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receive an advanced copy, so honored to
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have been able to receive one. And it is
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good. Everybody go preorder it. It's
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called the exvangelicals. Loving living
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and leaving the white evangelical church.
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And she grew up in white evangelicalism in
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the midwest in the United States. She
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currently lives in Norfolk, Virginia with
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her husband and two children. She
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substacks at off the air. Please go
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subscribe and you can find her on Twitter
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at Sarah McCammon we'll link all of these
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things. I'm so excited to welcome to the
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show today, Sarah McCammon. Hi, Sarah.
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Welcome to the World of Difference
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podcast. Today you get to be the one being
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interviewed. I know that's a change of
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pace for you a little bit, but you have
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written a book, so get used to it, I
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guess. But thanks for showing up today to.
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Have this conversation, Sarah. Yeah, my
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pleasure. You're right. Usually I get to
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ask the questions, so this is a reversal
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for me. But I'm excited to be here. Well,
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I'm excited to have you and just so great
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to get an advanced reader's copy of this
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book. It's been incredible. You're
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obviously a great writer, but you also
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have an experience. And I always find that
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when people are researching something, if
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they have a narrative and their own
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personal experience, it just gives a more
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rich read to a book like that. I think
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about how, like Beth Allison Barr when I
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had her on the podcast, she's writing
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about history, but she writes her own
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personal narrative into it. And I think
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that it makes her a compelling read. And
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this one certainly did. I think. I tweeted
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the other day, I'm not a big crier, more
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like a left brain person, but I was
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literally like crying in the introduction.
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Just, there's the way that you brought
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just a real depth and beauty into a very
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difficult situation you're describing
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there that just really touched me. And so
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looking forward to this conversation
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today. Sarah, thanks once again for being
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here. Yeah, well, thank you so much for
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saying mean. It means a lot. This book is
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obviously very personal, as well know,
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researched and reported, but I did bring a
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lot of myself to it, and that's exciting,
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but also a little scary. So I hoped that
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when I wrote it, it would resonate for
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people and it would mean something. And
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I'm starting to hear that as these review
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copies go out. And so thank you for that.
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Of course, it is very vulnerable to write
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about your experience. I mean, you're
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getting into details of your family and
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things that are hard, and I think, yeah,
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I'd love for you just to describe, because
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our podcast is people all around the
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world. We have about 85 countries, people
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that listen, obviously people that speak
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English, but some people are second
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language english speakers, and people of
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all different religious backgrounds
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listen. But there is something very
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specific and very particular about being
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raised white evangelical in the midwest.
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So you were raised in this culture, the
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subculture. You describe it in the book as
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an insular and immense. And at its peak in
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1993, some about 30% of Americans really
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identified as evangelicals and then you
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mentioned you're a twelve year old showing
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up to youth group in 1993, and you shyly
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showed up to these meetings believing the
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world was a dangerous place that needed
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saving and you needed saving from. So
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describe a little bit about this
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experience for those who haven't really
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walked in your shoes and don't know what
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it's like. Yeah. So I grew up not exactly
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smack in the middle of the country, but
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pretty much in the middle of the United
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States, in Kansas City, Missouri. And it
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was only later that I realized that I was
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growing up in a really, like you said,
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massive subculture. Depending on which
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numbers you look at, it is something like
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a third of the country or a little less
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identified as evangelical at that time. If
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you talk about white evangelicalism, it's
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a little bit lower, maybe like one in
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four. But by a lot of measures, it was the
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biggest religious movement in the country.
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And yet, especially for families like
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mine, that were all in. We were all in. We
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went to christian school, we went to
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church every Sunday. Some people went more
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often than that. At times in my childhood
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we went on Wednesdays or I went to events
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on Wednesdays. We had christian books,
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christian movies, christian magazines, all
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from an evangelical point of view. So a
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theologically conservative protestant
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point of view. The world that was
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presented to me as a little girl was one
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where everybody was born into the world, a
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sinner and was going to hell. And this was
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tied to the idea, I guess, in some
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traditions of original sin, Adam and Eve
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and the Garden of Eden. But the idea was
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that literally, unless you believed in
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Jesus and believed the right things about
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Jesus and followed Jesus, you were not
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saved. And we had to make sure we were
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saved, and we had to make sure that the
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world was saved. And so that meant
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witnessing was the term we used. Sharing
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the gospel, sharing our faith with our
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friends, with our family, with our
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neighbors. It might mean in youth group,
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in high school, middle school, there was a
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time I went out street witnessing, we
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called know, passing out little tracks to
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tell people about our beliefs about Jesus
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and tell them that they needed to believe
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in him and pray a prayer and ask God to
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forgive them so that they could go to
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heaven too. We funded missionary work
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around the world. And the thing that was
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really central in my particular upbringing
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and I think has become a really powerful
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part of this culture in the US, is the
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political project that became aligned with
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white evangelicalism. My parents took me
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to anti abortion marches. They volunteered
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for republican, usually Christians who
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were running for Congress and for other
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offices. And it was all intertwined for
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us. It was all connected to this vision of
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the world where the world was fallen and
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broken and we needed to save it, or we
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needed to not personally save it, but
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introduce people to the truth so that they
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could be saved. That's what I was taught.
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And that created sort of a bubble around
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me. I had very little exposure to, well,
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very sort of controlled exposure to non
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christian movies and music and things like
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that. And some kids who grew up
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evangelical or fundamentalist, even more
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conservative kind of version of this have
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no exposure or virtually none. There is a
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spectrum, but for me, it was very minimal.
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And this is kind of the only world that I
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knew except for one or two people in my
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life, including some extended family
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members who did not believe what we
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believed. Yeah, I remember reading about
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your grandpa and the book and just there's
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so many heartbreaking parts of your
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family, and I know that people reading it
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are going to relate because it's not like
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your situation is rare in a way, there are
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others who grew up exactly like this. And
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then you mentioned the intertwining of
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politics with your faith community and how
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that happened for you growing up. So that
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led eventually to you becoming NPR's lead
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reporter in 2016, assigned to the Donald
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Trump campaign, which meant you really
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were a target of Trump's followers, who
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would be whipped up into this sort of
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excited frenzy to point at you. I'm using
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air quotes, disgusting reporters who were,
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quote, the worst people and laugh. And
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basically you write about this. His shtick
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resulted in what sounds to me like a lot
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of trauma responses that must have been
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happening for you and other reporters
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coming up. But as you were raised in sort
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of this evangelical purity culture, that
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didn't really give you the skills to trust
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your body necessarily. How, as a reporter,
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did this affect you physically,
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emotionally, and spiritually? To work in
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such a really traumatic work environment
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during that time? It was stressful, and I
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think it was stressful or would be
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stressful for almost anybody, regardless
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of their personal background. I will say I
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have colleagues who go to war zones, and
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it's nothing on that level, but it's
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unexpected in an environment like this. At
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a presidential campaign rally, although it
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came to be expected for me, though, I had
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largely distanced myself from my
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evangelical upbringing by that point. I
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was in my early mid thirty s at the
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beginning of the campaign. It wasn't like
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I wasn't interested in religion or
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Christianity. We can talk more about that
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at some point if you want, but I didn't
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consider myself an evangelical. I wouldn't
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have used that label. And I tried to sort
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of separate that childhood experience from
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my work. I went into journalism because I
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really had pretty traditional views of
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journalism. I didn't want to be an
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advocate. I didn't want to push a certain
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agenda. I truly was drawn to journalism
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because it felt like a place where I could
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freely ask questions and not have to have
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predetermined answers, like I so often
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felt as a child I was supposed to have.
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And that was really exciting for me and
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exhilarating. And so journalism felt like
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a space to do that. But fast forward to,
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like I said, my early mid thirty s. Two
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thousand and fifteen, two thousand and
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sixteen. I'm assigned to cover the
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republican primary. I wind up kind of
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unexpectedly as things go for most people
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covering Donald Trump. No one really saw
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that coming until it was there. And I was
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sort of face to face again with a lot of
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these themes. And even some of the same
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people and political leaders that had
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know, kitchen table names in my household
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were suddenly endorsing Donald Trump. And
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everyone was trying to make sense of that.
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And so it was this very strange position
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to be in as a reporter who had tried to
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kind know, be professional, be neutral,
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and yet I knew so much about this world.
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And so gradually that I think I came to
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see it as actually an advantage, something
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that helped me to kind of understand what
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I was looking at and ask, I hope, some of
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the right questions and maybe help explain
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this phenomenon to people who had less
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familiarity with evangelicalism. But to
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get to your question about trauma, I think
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the experience of, like I said, of being
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sort of hemmed in by an angry crowd would
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be stressful for anybody. For me, there
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was this extra element of I would be,
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before these rallies, off to the side,
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talking to people in line or in the back
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of these stadiums and arenas. And
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sometimes people would have religious
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symbols or they would bring up their
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faith. And in general, regardless of
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religion, they reminded me of the people I
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grew up around in the midwest. And it was
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a little startling sometimes to see people
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go from completely normal and
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conversational to the moment that Trump
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took the stage and whipped up the frenzy.
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They would get so angry. And a lot of that
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was directed at us, and it wasn't
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personal. We just become symbols. Know, I
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guess, of the establishment of the elite,
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of whatever it was that people were angry
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at. And Trump was happy to use us as that.
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So one of the things I write about in the
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book, though, one of the kind of shocking
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for me, surprising experiences I had was
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the weekend before the election, the heat
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had really kind of turned up. We were
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going to the press corps that was
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following Trump was going to all of these
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kind of back to back rallies like they
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have right before an election. The crowds
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were kind of especially angry and intense,
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and I think excited, too, because the
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election was about to come and I was just
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exhausted. I had very little been, you
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know, hopping on planes and buses. And
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it's kind of that point in the campaign
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when you're just over it. And I just found
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myself kind of praying and also thinking
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as people screamed at us about really what
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Jesus taught about loving your enemies.
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And I'm not somebody that is super
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spiritual or goes to services a lot or
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anything like that, but it really felt
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like this strange, almost ironic moment
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where it felt like a very spiritual moment
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for me. And maybe that's what faith is
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ultimately about. It's not always
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something that you choose or that you work
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up. It's just something that is sort of a
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gift. Right. And that was the form it took
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for me, and that is relatively unusual for
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me, but it gave me strength and it made me
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feel like almost a form of compassion.
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Like, I don't know why these people are so
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angry at me. I don't think it's about me.
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I think it's about something else that I
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can't control. But it was sort of a
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spiritual moment to figure out how to find
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that inner strength and just move through
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it. Yeah, that's the part where I teared,
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really. I was sitting in a coffee shop
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here in Silicon Valley reading that. And,
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yeah, that was just a really beautiful,
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deeply spiritual moment, I think, that
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know, in evangelical Christianity, which
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also formed me, even though I was in
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another overseas being formed by that,
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sometimes people expect the biggest
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spiritual moments to happen in the four
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walls of a church. But you experienced it
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in a very real situation. Some of my
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favorite christian authors will point
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toward those passages, too. Like, the mark
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of a Christian is somebody who can truly
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spontaneously love their enemies. And
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that's not an easy thing to do. And the
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fact that you had that experience is
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really what kind of brought me to tears.
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Thank you. And it wasn't even like I did
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anything or made a choice or did something
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good. And I'm sure that this is something
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that happens to other people who, and I
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don't think it's probably unique to, I'm
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sure it's not unique to my tradition, and
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I want to be careful to say that. Right.
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But my own faith these days is very kind
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of mystical, and I don't really know what
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to make of something like that. And it's
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not normal for me. And I don't want to
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sound either like, oh, I felt such
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compassion and empathy. It was almost just
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like something outside of me was like,
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getting me through that. And I was
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grateful for that moment, whatever it is.
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Absolutely. No, I think that hearing you
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say that is exactly how I read it in the
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book. So I think you portrayed yourself
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accurately now that I hear you say it,
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because that's kind of what I came away
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with for you and that situation. And I
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think it's a really beautiful moment. And
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I do hope people buy your book and read
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it, because even just for the
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introduction, it's a good read. So moving
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on to some really more questions that I
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think are trying to bring all this
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together because you have a perspective
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that's really important. Not only were you
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formed in this community, you got to see
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firsthand what's happening in these
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rallies where now we're in a situation
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where christian nationalism is just very
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out in the open, and it's very much
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happening in the churches. We're seeing
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things very openly that weren't so open
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before. But as I think about some of the
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abuse allegations that are continuing to
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roll out, about some of these pastors,
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evangelical pastors that are predators,
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I'm thinking of the Southern Baptist
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convention, but not exclusively them. In
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your hometown, ihop Casey has a lot going
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on right now. But as we think about these
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evangelical church leaders who have these
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abuse allegations coming out, how do you
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think some of the Trump narrative, that
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reporters are, quote, unquote, the worst
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people, has formed hearts and minds of
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evangelicals in the pews as they hear
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about these christian whistleblowers of
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spiritual or sexual abuse that are talking
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to reporters. How are they connected?
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Well, I don't think it helps, but I also
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think it didn't start with Trump. I grew
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up being warned about the media as if it
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were all one conglomerate with a unified
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brain or something. And in reality, the
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media is so many different things. That's
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another conversation. I grew up being
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actively steered toward sort of approved
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publications, whether it was Fox News or
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publications with a specifically christian
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conservative worldview. So there's a long
443
00:17:46,546 --> 00:17:49,490
history there, and there's a long history
444
00:17:49,490 --> 00:17:51,426
of politicians attacking the press. Trump
445
00:17:51,426 --> 00:17:53,746
was not the first, but I do think it was
446
00:17:53,746 --> 00:17:56,158
one of his key strategies, and he upped
447
00:17:56,158 --> 00:17:59,798
the ante in a big way. And that has had
448
00:17:59,798 --> 00:18:03,298
the effect, all of that taken together, of
449
00:18:03,298 --> 00:18:06,054
delegitimizing the press to a large degree
450
00:18:06,054 --> 00:18:08,598
in people's minds. And so I wonder. I
451
00:18:08,598 --> 00:18:09,846
think it's a good question. You ask what
452
00:18:09,846 --> 00:18:12,406
it means for these kinds of reports about
453
00:18:12,406 --> 00:18:14,474
sex abuse in churches. How many people are
454
00:18:14,474 --> 00:18:17,914
less likely to take them seriously? I can
455
00:18:17,914 --> 00:18:19,866
only speculate, but I will say that I
456
00:18:19,866 --> 00:18:23,950
think it's why sort of criticisms from
457
00:18:23,950 --> 00:18:25,886
inside the house are especially important
458
00:18:25,886 --> 00:18:28,574
right now. I think of World magazine a few
459
00:18:28,574 --> 00:18:30,314
years ago did some really excellent
460
00:18:30,314 --> 00:18:33,326
reporting on the late Ravi Zacharias and
461
00:18:33,326 --> 00:18:36,802
sexual abuse allegations from some of the
462
00:18:36,802 --> 00:18:39,780
women that had worked, I think, around
463
00:18:39,780 --> 00:18:43,006
him. More recently, Nancy French, the
464
00:18:43,006 --> 00:18:44,926
writer Nancy French has done some
465
00:18:44,926 --> 00:18:47,346
reporting on abuse claims at places like
466
00:18:47,346 --> 00:18:50,038
Canacook camp. And I think that's really
467
00:18:50,038 --> 00:18:53,206
important because understandably, we live
468
00:18:53,206 --> 00:18:55,414
in a big, messy world, and people are not
469
00:18:55,414 --> 00:18:58,006
always sure who they can trust. And I wish
470
00:18:58,006 --> 00:18:59,878
they would trust me. And I can tell you
471
00:18:59,878 --> 00:19:01,818
that I do my best to be honest and fair,
472
00:19:01,818 --> 00:19:04,646
but if they don't, they might be more
473
00:19:04,646 --> 00:19:06,858
likely to listen to somebody inside the
474
00:19:06,858 --> 00:19:08,986
house and inside the family critique than
475
00:19:08,986 --> 00:19:10,886
they would someone like me working for a
476
00:19:10,886 --> 00:19:13,066
mainstream media organization. And so I'm
477
00:19:13,066 --> 00:19:14,794
really grateful to see some of those
478
00:19:14,794 --> 00:19:16,606
publications and journalists doing that
479
00:19:16,606 --> 00:19:19,982
kind of work. I think it's critical I do,
480
00:19:19,982 --> 00:19:21,486
too. And thank you for the work that you
481
00:19:21,486 --> 00:19:23,634
do and all the journalists. I have said
482
00:19:23,634 --> 00:19:27,074
many times over the last year. Plus, I
483
00:19:27,074 --> 00:19:30,290
feel like in what's happening in
484
00:19:30,290 --> 00:19:32,434
evangelicalism, I become really grateful
485
00:19:32,434 --> 00:19:34,754
for reporters, investigative reporters and
486
00:19:34,754 --> 00:19:37,454
the lawyers like Boschevijan. I'm so
487
00:19:37,454 --> 00:19:38,886
grateful for the department of justice
488
00:19:38,886 --> 00:19:41,286
because I feel like sometimes inside, it's
489
00:19:41,286 --> 00:19:44,166
hard to get the information, and it has to
490
00:19:44,166 --> 00:19:46,886
be from the outside on a certain level. So
491
00:19:46,886 --> 00:19:48,694
I'm really grateful for people shining a
492
00:19:48,694 --> 00:19:50,386
light, and it's hard work. And I'm so
493
00:19:50,386 --> 00:19:52,140
grateful for you and others who do that
494
00:19:52,140 --> 00:19:55,066
work. I think about in the book, you talk
495
00:19:55,066 --> 00:19:57,146
about, like, as a child, you're the oldest
496
00:19:57,146 --> 00:19:59,126
of four. You have these blonde, well
497
00:19:59,126 --> 00:20:01,238
behaved children, these three little girls
498
00:20:01,238 --> 00:20:04,046
spaced three years apart, and a brother
499
00:20:04,046 --> 00:20:07,166
who was a surprise to you. What a brother.
500
00:20:07,166 --> 00:20:10,526
And then you say, you know, at that stage
501
00:20:10,526 --> 00:20:12,602
of your life, you knew that your neat
502
00:20:12,602 --> 00:20:14,142
appearance, your obedient behavior in
503
00:20:14,142 --> 00:20:16,394
public was one small way you could be a
504
00:20:16,394 --> 00:20:18,450
witness for Jesus, displaying what a
505
00:20:18,450 --> 00:20:21,070
family could be and should be know. A
506
00:20:21,070 --> 00:20:23,294
father, a mother, four obedient children
507
00:20:23,294 --> 00:20:25,490
fresh from the church, eating apple pie
508
00:20:25,490 --> 00:20:27,750
together. And then you say, everywhere we
509
00:20:27,750 --> 00:20:29,446
went, everything we did, we were told we
510
00:20:29,446 --> 00:20:32,214
must be ambassadors for Christ. How would
511
00:20:32,214 --> 00:20:34,962
you describe the way this intense sort of
512
00:20:34,962 --> 00:20:37,346
pressure for perfectionism and behavior
513
00:20:37,346 --> 00:20:39,142
management of children was sort of
514
00:20:39,142 --> 00:20:41,126
intertwined with your evangelical
515
00:20:41,126 --> 00:20:43,754
spiritual formation at the same time?
516
00:20:43,754 --> 00:20:45,926
Well, because we believed that we had the
517
00:20:45,926 --> 00:20:49,270
truth and we believed that the world was
518
00:20:49,270 --> 00:20:52,190
dying literally without it. It was so
519
00:20:52,190 --> 00:20:54,350
important that we convey that to other
520
00:20:54,350 --> 00:20:57,598
people, starting with the people we had
521
00:20:57,598 --> 00:20:59,726
contact with. And we didn't have contact
522
00:20:59,726 --> 00:21:03,226
with a whole lot of non Christians. As
523
00:21:03,226 --> 00:21:04,802
I've described, my whole world was pretty
524
00:21:04,802 --> 00:21:07,662
much church and christian school and
525
00:21:07,662 --> 00:21:10,946
evangelical circles. But on the occasions
526
00:21:10,946 --> 00:21:14,210
that we did, it was important to shine a
527
00:21:14,210 --> 00:21:16,350
light. There's this verse in the New
528
00:21:16,350 --> 00:21:18,674
Testament, let your light so shine before
529
00:21:18,674 --> 00:21:21,074
men that they will see your good deeds and
530
00:21:21,074 --> 00:21:23,766
glorify your father in heaven. And that
531
00:21:23,766 --> 00:21:25,606
was one that was quoted to us, and I'm
532
00:21:25,606 --> 00:21:27,942
sure in Sunday school and church and
533
00:21:27,942 --> 00:21:29,498
probably christian school, too. And there
534
00:21:29,498 --> 00:21:32,666
was just this idea that you had to exhibit
535
00:21:32,666 --> 00:21:35,994
with your life, the joy that came from
536
00:21:35,994 --> 00:21:39,354
being a Christian, the peace that passes
537
00:21:39,354 --> 00:21:41,886
all understanding, to quote the Bible as
538
00:21:41,886 --> 00:21:45,182
well. And the challenge was I didn't
539
00:21:45,182 --> 00:21:47,102
always feel that peace and joy. I mean, I
540
00:21:47,102 --> 00:21:51,246
sure wanted to, and I wanted to share the
541
00:21:51,246 --> 00:21:54,506
good news, and I certainly wanted my
542
00:21:54,506 --> 00:21:55,810
extended family that I've mentioned,
543
00:21:55,810 --> 00:21:59,054
especially my grandpa, to get saved, quote
544
00:21:59,054 --> 00:22:01,134
unquote. And so I felt that pressure,
545
00:22:01,134 --> 00:22:04,926
particularly around them. It felt like a
546
00:22:04,926 --> 00:22:08,646
huge responsibility, and it was about
547
00:22:08,646 --> 00:22:11,766
being on your best behavior, just showing
548
00:22:11,766 --> 00:22:15,894
everyone that we kind of had it figured
549
00:22:15,894 --> 00:22:17,286
out. I mean, that's not how anyone would
550
00:22:17,286 --> 00:22:19,030
have put it, but that's kind of how it
551
00:22:19,030 --> 00:22:24,086
felt. Yeah. It has to be a lot of intense
552
00:22:24,086 --> 00:22:26,166
pressure as a child, and I'm sure
553
00:22:26,166 --> 00:22:28,282
processing that now as an adult is not
554
00:22:28,282 --> 00:22:29,594
easy. I know many people are in that
555
00:22:29,594 --> 00:22:30,986
space, which is kind of why you've written
556
00:22:30,986 --> 00:22:34,122
this book, for people to help themselves
557
00:22:34,122 --> 00:22:35,518
find themselves in your story. And that's
558
00:22:35,518 --> 00:22:37,966
the thing about story, right. Is we can
559
00:22:37,966 --> 00:22:39,934
see ourselves in other people's stories,
560
00:22:39,934 --> 00:22:41,742
right. There's these few stories in the
561
00:22:41,742 --> 00:22:44,394
world, and when we tell them people, other
562
00:22:44,394 --> 00:22:46,466
humans, can relate to parts of it. And you
563
00:22:46,466 --> 00:22:49,554
have this term exvangelical, which has
564
00:22:49,554 --> 00:22:51,746
been used quite a bit, and I'd love to
565
00:22:51,746 --> 00:22:53,666
know how you define the term. And also
566
00:22:53,666 --> 00:22:56,162
sort of what misconceptions are out there
567
00:22:56,162 --> 00:22:59,474
about this group being often viewed either
568
00:22:59,474 --> 00:23:02,102
exclusively non religious or secular, but
569
00:23:02,102 --> 00:23:04,326
not counting some, that sort of really
570
00:23:04,326 --> 00:23:05,846
help to remain spiritual. What is your
571
00:23:05,846 --> 00:23:08,134
take on all of that? Yeah, well, you're
572
00:23:08,134 --> 00:23:11,190
right. I mean, I think that there are huge
573
00:23:11,190 --> 00:23:12,586
commonalities between people who've in
574
00:23:12,586 --> 00:23:14,746
some way walked this journey. Part of it
575
00:23:14,746 --> 00:23:17,514
is because while everyone's experience is
576
00:23:17,514 --> 00:23:19,706
different and there are varieties of sort
577
00:23:19,706 --> 00:23:22,290
of sub subcultures and different
578
00:23:22,290 --> 00:23:24,190
traditions within the evangelical
579
00:23:24,190 --> 00:23:27,582
tradition. There was this what I call kind
580
00:23:27,582 --> 00:23:29,114
of and what others have called kind of a
581
00:23:29,114 --> 00:23:31,374
parallel universe of sort of this curated
582
00:23:31,374 --> 00:23:35,566
world of evangelical culture and media and
583
00:23:35,566 --> 00:23:37,394
language and thought that so many of us
584
00:23:37,394 --> 00:23:40,738
were exposed to. And so there's a common
585
00:23:40,738 --> 00:23:42,370
experience, and there's a common
586
00:23:42,370 --> 00:23:44,914
experience in stepping away from that
587
00:23:44,914 --> 00:23:47,346
world. There's a sense of, I think, a loss
588
00:23:47,346 --> 00:23:49,906
of community, for sure. There's a lot of
589
00:23:49,906 --> 00:23:52,006
fear and anxiety about getting it wrong
590
00:23:52,006 --> 00:23:53,218
because we were told that was, like, the
591
00:23:53,218 --> 00:23:57,078
worst thing that you could do. And then
592
00:23:57,078 --> 00:23:58,406
there are questions about, well, what am I
593
00:23:58,406 --> 00:24:00,902
now? And who am I now? And so I came
594
00:24:00,902 --> 00:24:03,418
across the term exvangelical as I write in
595
00:24:03,418 --> 00:24:06,138
the book, reporting a story in 2016 about
596
00:24:06,138 --> 00:24:07,766
some of the divisions within the
597
00:24:07,766 --> 00:24:10,182
evangelical movement that had been not
598
00:24:10,182 --> 00:24:12,246
necessarily created, but certainly
599
00:24:12,246 --> 00:24:15,894
catalyzed and exacerbated by Trumpism. And
600
00:24:15,894 --> 00:24:19,214
I started kind of following that hashtag
601
00:24:19,214 --> 00:24:22,378
on social media, and it was coined
602
00:24:22,378 --> 00:24:24,574
originally by Blake Chastain, who has a
603
00:24:24,574 --> 00:24:27,042
podcast by that name. And I just began to
604
00:24:27,042 --> 00:24:29,006
see a lot of conversations kind of
605
00:24:29,006 --> 00:24:32,574
unfolding around that terminology. Quite
606
00:24:32,574 --> 00:24:34,594
simply, people who were once evangelical,
607
00:24:34,594 --> 00:24:36,674
who no longer feel comfortable with that
608
00:24:36,674 --> 00:24:40,598
label, for whatever reason. And so that's
609
00:24:40,598 --> 00:24:42,118
how I've defined it. And I also talk about
610
00:24:42,118 --> 00:24:44,694
the fact that evangelical is a very sort
611
00:24:44,694 --> 00:24:47,826
of squishy term that sociologists and
612
00:24:47,826 --> 00:24:50,406
pollsters struggle to define. But I think
613
00:24:50,406 --> 00:24:52,954
it's easy to point to a number of things.
614
00:24:52,954 --> 00:24:55,526
And I kind of organized the book
615
00:24:55,526 --> 00:24:57,654
thematically around some of the sort of
616
00:24:57,654 --> 00:25:01,206
tension points with the predominant white
617
00:25:01,206 --> 00:25:02,666
evangelical subcultures that so many of us
618
00:25:02,666 --> 00:25:07,440
grew up in, I guess, the rest of the
619
00:25:07,440 --> 00:25:12,202
world, whether it's the understanding of
620
00:25:12,202 --> 00:25:14,194
science or the lack of acceptance of
621
00:25:14,194 --> 00:25:16,226
things like evolutionary science that so
622
00:25:16,226 --> 00:25:18,226
many of us experienced in our churches and
623
00:25:18,226 --> 00:25:22,462
our textbooks, whether it's that or
624
00:25:22,462 --> 00:25:24,930
understandings about sexuality, purity,
625
00:25:24,930 --> 00:25:28,366
culture, LGBTQ people, there's a whole
626
00:25:28,366 --> 00:25:30,422
variety of sort of tension points that
627
00:25:30,422 --> 00:25:32,306
people kind of identify that made them
628
00:25:32,306 --> 00:25:34,306
struggle with being part of the white
629
00:25:34,306 --> 00:25:35,494
evangelical movement, the people that I
630
00:25:35,494 --> 00:25:38,058
talk to. And so the reasons are all a
631
00:25:38,058 --> 00:25:39,962
little bit individual. But again, the
632
00:25:39,962 --> 00:25:44,298
experience is similar. And I think there
633
00:25:44,298 --> 00:25:47,114
are some misconceptions about what that
634
00:25:47,114 --> 00:25:48,714
means. It doesn't necessarily mean that
635
00:25:48,714 --> 00:25:51,534
people have abandoned religion altogether
636
00:25:51,534 --> 00:25:56,698
or don't care about spirituality. I think
637
00:25:56,698 --> 00:25:58,366
there's a misperception that people leave
638
00:25:58,366 --> 00:25:59,962
their churches because they want to, quote
639
00:25:59,962 --> 00:26:03,214
unquote, sin. And certainly people change
640
00:26:03,214 --> 00:26:05,022
their behavior when they leave their
641
00:26:05,022 --> 00:26:06,606
churches, sometimes because they've
642
00:26:06,606 --> 00:26:08,930
changed their beliefs. But in my own
643
00:26:08,930 --> 00:26:11,186
experience and in talking to many others
644
00:26:11,186 --> 00:26:14,340
for this book, it's much more complex than
645
00:26:14,340 --> 00:26:16,678
that, and it's very painful. I think for a
646
00:26:16,678 --> 00:26:18,066
lot of people, it'd actually be much
647
00:26:18,066 --> 00:26:20,774
easier to stay. This is the harder path,
648
00:26:20,774 --> 00:26:23,874
but it's, for a lot of people, the more
649
00:26:23,874 --> 00:26:27,494
authentic path. Yeah, absolutely. That's
650
00:26:27,494 --> 00:26:30,566
been my experience of so many that I know.
651
00:26:30,566 --> 00:26:32,110
And it feels sort of like the floor has
652
00:26:32,110 --> 00:26:34,346
fallen out from underneath you. Or I've
653
00:26:34,346 --> 00:26:36,458
heard people say, once the clouds parted,
654
00:26:36,458 --> 00:26:37,866
I wish they would have gone back, because
655
00:26:37,866 --> 00:26:39,706
to keep your community would certainly be
656
00:26:39,706 --> 00:26:43,230
an easier route in some ways. And some
657
00:26:43,230 --> 00:26:46,302
people go that route, just sort of live
658
00:26:46,302 --> 00:26:49,006
with the cognitive dissonance and try to
659
00:26:49,006 --> 00:26:51,182
sort of push it to the side, and others
660
00:26:51,182 --> 00:26:54,174
choose to leave. And either way, it's a
661
00:26:54,174 --> 00:26:57,010
hard journey once there's some questions
662
00:26:57,010 --> 00:26:59,346
or people feel like they don't align with
663
00:26:59,346 --> 00:27:01,906
some of the behavioral management that has
664
00:27:01,906 --> 00:27:04,210
been passed on to them in different ways.
665
00:27:04,210 --> 00:27:06,886
But I want to step into this question as
666
00:27:06,886 --> 00:27:10,726
we think about the subculture of that, how
667
00:27:10,726 --> 00:27:12,646
it influenced what we mentioned earlier,
668
00:27:12,646 --> 00:27:14,598
some of the christian nationalism we're
669
00:27:14,598 --> 00:27:16,886
seeing more prominently now and very much
670
00:27:16,886 --> 00:27:18,966
more on display in sort of January 6 and
671
00:27:18,966 --> 00:27:21,226
that type of thing. But I'd love for you
672
00:27:21,226 --> 00:27:23,098
to discuss, I know as a reporter you've
673
00:27:23,098 --> 00:27:24,902
got to stay very descriptive and
674
00:27:24,902 --> 00:27:27,414
analytical, so feel free to stay in that
675
00:27:27,414 --> 00:27:30,134
realm. But would you discuss with us the
676
00:27:30,134 --> 00:27:32,954
broader societal or cultural impact of the
677
00:27:32,954 --> 00:27:35,034
evangelical movement, particularly in the
678
00:27:35,034 --> 00:27:37,114
context of some american politics and
679
00:27:37,114 --> 00:27:39,040
societal issues that you're seeing right
680
00:27:39,040 --> 00:27:42,378
now of the evangelical. Movement or the
681
00:27:42,378 --> 00:27:44,606
exvangelical movement? Sorry? The ex
682
00:27:44,606 --> 00:27:46,754
evangelical movement. Yes. Thank you.
683
00:27:46,754 --> 00:27:48,114
Yeah. I mean, I'm happy to talk about
684
00:27:48,114 --> 00:27:52,478
either one, but I think the evangelical
685
00:27:52,478 --> 00:27:54,180
movement's impact is well established.
686
00:27:54,180 --> 00:27:57,940
Right. The majority of the republican base
687
00:27:57,940 --> 00:28:01,074
and continues to have an, even as white
688
00:28:01,074 --> 00:28:02,486
Christianity shrinks, continues to have
689
00:28:02,486 --> 00:28:05,106
sort of an outsized impact on american
690
00:28:05,106 --> 00:28:07,350
politics. But the exvangelical movement
691
00:28:07,350 --> 00:28:10,918
is, I think, more loosely defined. And I
692
00:28:10,918 --> 00:28:12,266
want to be clear. I didn't write this book
693
00:28:12,266 --> 00:28:14,650
to tell people how to vote or who to
694
00:28:14,650 --> 00:28:17,658
support for any office. That was not my
695
00:28:17,658 --> 00:28:20,274
interest. But I was seeing all of this
696
00:28:20,274 --> 00:28:23,626
conversation around sort of the post
697
00:28:23,626 --> 00:28:26,426
evangelical experience and this term
698
00:28:26,426 --> 00:28:27,994
deconstruction that's become really
699
00:28:27,994 --> 00:28:30,026
popular online the last few years, which
700
00:28:30,026 --> 00:28:32,894
describes this process of rethinking what
701
00:28:32,894 --> 00:28:35,522
you believe and trying to understand it
702
00:28:35,522 --> 00:28:37,214
maybe differently or ask questions you
703
00:28:37,214 --> 00:28:41,666
hadn't asked before. But I think that a
704
00:28:41,666 --> 00:28:43,634
couple of things, I think we don't fully
705
00:28:43,634 --> 00:28:46,338
know what that movement will mean. I think
706
00:28:46,338 --> 00:28:49,122
it's part of a larger shift away from
707
00:28:49,122 --> 00:28:50,486
religion, although that doesn't, as we
708
00:28:50,486 --> 00:28:52,294
just discussed, doesn't necessarily mean
709
00:28:52,294 --> 00:28:55,270
that everybody who leaves an evangelical
710
00:28:55,270 --> 00:28:58,722
church is becoming secular or will stay
711
00:28:58,722 --> 00:29:01,874
secular. But we do know that the category
712
00:29:01,874 --> 00:29:04,054
that sociologists and pollsters call the
713
00:29:04,054 --> 00:29:07,546
nuns N-O-N-E-S O N E S has now become
714
00:29:07,546 --> 00:29:09,834
larger in the US than white evangelicalism
715
00:29:09,834 --> 00:29:13,182
which I think could have tremendous impact
716
00:29:13,182 --> 00:29:14,698
on american politics going a You're
717
00:29:14,698 --> 00:29:17,594
talking about a real erosion of the
718
00:29:17,594 --> 00:29:19,754
republican base and that's growth in
719
00:29:19,754 --> 00:29:22,430
something that's much less defined and
720
00:29:22,430 --> 00:29:25,778
much more liberal and secular And I think
721
00:29:25,778 --> 00:29:28,578
it's a product of a couple of different
722
00:29:28,578 --> 00:29:29,554
trends or historical events that have kind
723
00:29:29,554 --> 00:29:32,114
of happened at the same time One is just
724
00:29:32,114 --> 00:29:35,806
demographic change The country is becoming
725
00:29:35,806 --> 00:29:37,502
less white a less religious as really
726
00:29:37,502 --> 00:29:39,074
whole And that's really hitting
727
00:29:39,074 --> 00:29:41,094
Christianity the hardest because it's the
728
00:29:41,094 --> 00:29:43,414
dominant religion here Social media is can
729
00:29:43,414 --> 00:29:45,762
big factor People can find one another now
730
00:29:45,762 --> 00:29:47,174
online and have a conversation about
731
00:29:47,174 --> 00:29:51,026
anything And I think these hashtags a
732
00:29:51,026 --> 00:29:52,714
emerged out of a shared experience and
733
00:29:52,714 --> 00:29:55,062
about desire to talk about it And then of
734
00:29:55,062 --> 00:29:56,570
course we talked about Trumpism And
735
00:29:56,570 --> 00:29:58,906
Trumpism is just kind of I think the tip
736
00:29:58,906 --> 00:30:03,434
of the iceberg It's a symptom of
737
00:30:03,434 --> 00:30:05,146
politicization long term increasing
738
00:30:05,146 --> 00:30:08,654
politicization of the religious movement
739
00:30:08,654 --> 00:30:11,114
That was evangelicalism I think again how
740
00:30:11,114 --> 00:30:12,686
politically all shakes out politically and
741
00:30:12,686 --> 00:30:15,390
culturally will remain to be seen But I
742
00:30:15,390 --> 00:30:16,514
think churches are paying attention One of
743
00:30:16,514 --> 00:30:19,986
the in I talk about in the book is some
744
00:30:19,986 --> 00:30:22,626
criticism from churches and some prominent
745
00:30:22,626 --> 00:30:25,462
pastors as well as some christian
746
00:30:25,462 --> 00:30:28,294
evangelical thinkers who have tried to
747
00:30:28,294 --> 00:30:31,382
understand this move away from
748
00:30:31,382 --> 00:30:33,526
evangelicalism and Christianity among
749
00:30:33,526 --> 00:30:35,126
especially many younger people And so
750
00:30:35,126 --> 00:30:38,026
it'll also be interesting to see how
751
00:30:38,026 --> 00:30:39,498
churches respond I think some are
752
00:30:39,498 --> 00:30:42,698
responding Some are trying to become less
753
00:30:42,698 --> 00:30:48,026
political or more open to questions and a
754
00:30:48,026 --> 00:30:50,234
diverse range of points of view There's
755
00:30:50,234 --> 00:30:53,206
just been a lot of ink spilled though
756
00:30:53,206 --> 00:30:54,778
about white evangelicalism and christian
757
00:30:54,778 --> 00:30:55,726
nationalism and the politics of the
758
00:30:55,726 --> 00:30:57,386
movement and the history of the movement
759
00:30:57,386 --> 00:30:59,134
And it's all very a and I cite a lot of
760
00:30:59,134 --> 00:31:02,474
those sources in my book But what I really
761
00:31:02,474 --> 00:31:05,186
wanted to do was talk about what people
762
00:31:05,186 --> 00:31:08,066
raised in this world which is have lot of
763
00:31:08,066 --> 00:31:12,034
people have seen and know and the
764
00:31:12,034 --> 00:31:15,086
perspective that we bring to these
765
00:31:15,086 --> 00:31:16,482
conversations because I think it's much
766
00:31:16,482 --> 00:31:19,626
more intimate and sort of granular than
767
00:31:19,626 --> 00:31:20,646
some of these academic conversations a
768
00:31:20,646 --> 00:31:22,582
have happened for a long time So I hope
769
00:31:22,582 --> 00:31:24,294
it's valuable in that regard too That will
770
00:31:24,294 --> 00:31:27,446
just inform some of these conversations No
771
00:31:27,446 --> 00:31:30,182
I think you're right I think absolutely
772
00:31:30,182 --> 00:31:33,098
And I think we'll continue to watch and
773
00:31:33,098 --> 00:31:34,918
see what happens But I think that the
774
00:31:34,918 --> 00:31:36,618
shared experience of people finding these
775
00:31:36,618 --> 00:31:38,246
hashtags who may have been told what you
776
00:31:38,246 --> 00:31:43,806
were told about the Smurfs too Were you
777
00:31:43,806 --> 00:31:46,366
told that No I was not a God I missed a
778
00:31:46,366 --> 00:31:48,606
lot of things being in another country but
779
00:31:48,606 --> 00:31:51,258
yeah no I've heard that from the as well
780
00:31:51,258 --> 00:31:54,318
that the Smurfs were demonic Demonic Yeah
781
00:31:54,318 --> 00:31:58,458
I was like I just want to watch the Smurfs
782
00:31:58,458 --> 00:32:00,126
guys I wasn't scarred by that or anything
783
00:32:00,126 --> 00:32:02,546
I just think it's funny now Oh it's
784
00:32:02,546 --> 00:32:04,114
hilarious a I was actually Halloween Smurf
785
00:32:04,114 --> 00:32:05,138
at for Halloween one a which I know had
786
00:32:05,138 --> 00:32:07,666
lot of people had to miss Halloween from
787
00:32:07,666 --> 00:32:09,258
their evangelical upbringing too So I feel
788
00:32:09,258 --> 00:32:10,594
like that little bit privileged that I
789
00:32:10,594 --> 00:32:12,338
didn't have to miss individuals Was there
790
00:32:12,338 --> 00:32:14,646
a particular story that moved you in any
791
00:32:14,646 --> 00:32:16,246
particular way or changed your perspective
792
00:32:16,246 --> 00:32:21,274
at all on the whole evangelical community
793
00:32:21,274 --> 00:32:24,220
It was so kind of cathartic and
794
00:32:24,220 --> 00:32:27,786
fascinating to talk to people I called up
795
00:32:27,786 --> 00:32:29,226
old friends I reached out to people I
796
00:32:29,226 --> 00:32:31,706
didn't know that were on social media I
797
00:32:31,706 --> 00:32:35,294
talked to authors that I'd admired and
798
00:32:35,294 --> 00:32:37,678
kind of tried to form collage sort of
799
00:32:37,678 --> 00:32:40,126
composite collage of some of these
800
00:32:40,126 --> 00:32:42,254
perspectives and a range of different
801
00:32:42,254 --> 00:32:45,954
experiences So I can't just pick one But I
802
00:32:45,954 --> 00:32:47,826
will say I think the types of
803
00:32:47,826 --> 00:32:49,666
conversations that maybe were the most
804
00:32:49,666 --> 00:32:52,574
informative for me were the dialogues I
805
00:32:52,574 --> 00:32:54,846
had with non white Christians who had
806
00:32:54,846 --> 00:32:56,402
experience in white evangelical spaces I
807
00:32:56,402 --> 00:33:01,398
mean I knew growing up a we were taught a
808
00:33:01,398 --> 00:33:03,046
lot of good things that least on paper
809
00:33:03,046 --> 00:33:05,720
that we were taught that everybody was
810
00:33:05,720 --> 00:33:09,014
made in God's image that racism was wrong
811
00:33:09,014 --> 00:33:10,506
and that God loved everyone equally And I
812
00:33:10,506 --> 00:33:12,666
so grateful that I was taught those things
813
00:33:12,666 --> 00:33:15,206
and I obviously believe those things But
814
00:33:15,206 --> 00:33:17,738
our churches and our schools didn't look
815
00:33:17,738 --> 00:33:21,918
really like America They were
816
00:33:21,918 --> 00:33:23,358
overwhelmingly white spaces And I don't
817
00:33:23,358 --> 00:33:27,358
think at the time I really understood what
818
00:33:27,358 --> 00:33:31,760
that meant Know the ways that
819
00:33:31,760 --> 00:33:33,226
marginalizing certain voices shifts the
820
00:33:33,226 --> 00:33:35,146
person The people who aren't in the room
821
00:33:35,146 --> 00:33:39,266
aren't part of the discussion And so
822
00:33:39,266 --> 00:33:42,066
talking know black christians like Jamar
823
00:33:42,066 --> 00:33:43,234
Tisby about their experiences in these
824
00:33:43,234 --> 00:33:45,974
spaces and the way that that felt and
825
00:33:45,974 --> 00:33:49,160
looked was really I mean it's kind of
826
00:33:49,160 --> 00:33:51,318
heartbreaking but also informative For
827
00:33:51,318 --> 00:33:53,874
know Dr Tisby and some of the people in
828
00:33:53,874 --> 00:33:57,046
his circles talk about decolonizing
829
00:33:57,046 --> 00:33:58,698
Christianity know white Christianity more
830
00:33:58,698 --> 00:34:01,510
than deconstructing it And I think that's
831
00:34:01,510 --> 00:34:05,670
valuable really fascinating and valuable
832
00:34:05,670 --> 00:34:08,060
perspective because Jesus was
833
00:34:08,060 --> 00:34:10,842
fundamentally about inclusion I believe
834
00:34:10,842 --> 00:34:12,846
and elevating voices of people that
835
00:34:12,846 --> 00:34:15,646
weren't always elevated And I think that
836
00:34:15,646 --> 00:34:17,710
something I wonder about a lot is how
837
00:34:17,710 --> 00:34:20,014
different our churches would look if
838
00:34:20,014 --> 00:34:23,578
people of color and if women and others
839
00:34:23,578 --> 00:34:25,806
who are not always centered had been
840
00:34:25,806 --> 00:34:27,506
centered and included in a more prominent
841
00:34:27,506 --> 00:34:31,054
way I think we would probably have a
842
00:34:31,054 --> 00:34:32,306
different set of priorities possibly and
843
00:34:32,306 --> 00:34:33,938
it would even shape our theology and it
844
00:34:33,938 --> 00:34:35,806
would probably shape the way we look at
845
00:34:35,806 --> 00:34:37,394
scripture What are the verses that we
846
00:34:37,394 --> 00:34:38,678
highlight and we worry about and we focus
847
00:34:38,678 --> 00:34:42,150
on and what are the ones that we think are
848
00:34:42,150 --> 00:34:45,814
just a vestige of culture I think those
849
00:34:45,814 --> 00:34:47,414
questions cannot be answered in isolation
850
00:34:47,414 --> 00:34:50,780
or just by one kind of person I think
851
00:34:50,780 --> 00:34:53,738
about that a lot too And my favorite thing
852
00:34:53,738 --> 00:34:55,306
about Jesus and one of the reasons I just
853
00:34:55,306 --> 00:35:02,810
can't let him go is because of how
854
00:35:02,810 --> 00:35:04,154
inclusive he I once again I think about
855
00:35:04,154 --> 00:35:06,846
that a lot too because I think Jesus was
856
00:35:06,846 --> 00:35:08,814
so inclusive I mean just the way he
857
00:35:08,814 --> 00:35:10,862
interacted With women with people who were
858
00:35:10,862 --> 00:35:12,602
oppressed is something that is I want to
859
00:35:12,602 --> 00:35:15,746
be like that's And so yeah that's one of
860
00:35:15,746 --> 00:35:17,586
the things that I see him often
861
00:35:17,586 --> 00:35:19,746
misrepresented in evangelical lot of white
862
00:35:19,746 --> 00:35:22,146
evangelical spaces especially in the
863
00:35:22,146 --> 00:35:25,154
christian nationalism for a very extreme
864
00:35:25,154 --> 00:35:28,134
example But yeah I do think that over time
865
00:35:28,134 --> 00:35:30,438
if you and I had both been in circles
866
00:35:30,438 --> 00:35:34,178
where it wasn't a lot of just white men
867
00:35:34,178 --> 00:35:35,878
preaching the sermons even a the
868
00:35:35,878 --> 00:35:38,886
theological books read lot of us read were
869
00:35:38,886 --> 00:35:41,186
written by white men and translated into
870
00:35:41,186 --> 00:35:42,778
Spanish for Indonesian or Malay for know
871
00:35:42,778 --> 00:35:43,866
like these other languages that I was
872
00:35:43,866 --> 00:35:47,654
exposed to a lot of the people writing and
873
00:35:47,654 --> 00:35:49,706
preaching were know this industry And
874
00:35:49,706 --> 00:35:51,066
Kristen Covez Dumay when she came on the
875
00:35:51,066 --> 00:35:53,806
podcast talked a lot about the publishing
876
00:35:53,806 --> 00:35:55,326
industry And you you go into that, little
877
00:35:55,326 --> 00:35:58,106
bit of that too how influential it was in
878
00:35:58,106 --> 00:36:00,990
white evangelicalism and the books people
879
00:36:00,990 --> 00:36:03,586
a it is centering a a perspective when
880
00:36:03,586 --> 00:36:08,340
there's a whole world of diverse opinions
881
00:36:08,340 --> 00:36:11,746
As can NPR journalist though can I Just
882
00:36:11,746 --> 00:36:13,986
say quickly I think there is another ditch
883
00:36:13,986 --> 00:36:17,026
people sometimes fall into which is to say
884
00:36:17,026 --> 00:36:19,606
well most people don't say it explicitly
885
00:36:19,606 --> 00:36:20,886
but to essentially say well Jesus would
886
00:36:20,886 --> 00:36:22,534
have been liberal. Democrat and a liberal
887
00:36:22,534 --> 00:36:26,054
And I just think that I don't like any of
888
00:36:26,054 --> 00:36:27,846
that personally I would rather that we
889
00:36:27,846 --> 00:36:29,398
just sort of I mean I think we just have
890
00:36:29,398 --> 00:36:31,098
to acknowledge though at we all looks at
891
00:36:31,098 --> 00:36:33,546
anyone who looks at the Bible and takes it
892
00:36:33,546 --> 00:36:36,346
seriously in one way for another as
893
00:36:36,346 --> 00:36:38,282
instructive for their lives We all bring
894
00:36:38,282 --> 00:36:42,186
our perspectives and our life experiences
895
00:36:42,186 --> 00:36:44,266
and our biases and I think we have to be
896
00:36:44,266 --> 00:36:45,934
honest about the fact that different
897
00:36:45,934 --> 00:36:47,214
people have highlighted different things
898
00:36:47,214 --> 00:36:49,134
And I'm not saying that. only
899
00:36:49,134 --> 00:36:50,558
conservatives do that Or only white men do
900
00:36:50,558 --> 00:36:52,334
a But it's just a human tendency that we
901
00:36:52,334 --> 00:36:54,738
have to be honest about I think if we'd
902
00:36:54,738 --> 00:36:56,386
start with that we'd have and more
903
00:36:56,386 --> 00:36:58,866
interesting conversation and probably more
904
00:36:58,866 --> 00:37:01,134
authentic Absolutely Yeah And I mean it's
905
00:37:01,134 --> 00:37:05,586
hard to even picture Jesus in an american
906
00:37:05,586 --> 00:37:07,490
political a because it's like a middle
907
00:37:07,490 --> 00:37:11,014
eastern man I don't know It's such a It's
908
00:37:11,014 --> 00:37:14,886
kind of a silly a it's kind of a
909
00:37:14,886 --> 00:37:16,134
ridiculous project Overall which is the
910
00:37:16,134 --> 00:37:19,426
whole like Jesus and John Wayne a
911
00:37:19,426 --> 00:37:21,626
picturing him as a cowboy is a a bit of a
912
00:37:21,626 --> 00:37:24,726
stretch for me But anyway but you're an
913
00:37:24,726 --> 00:37:26,730
NPR journalist now You've grown up in this
914
00:37:26,730 --> 00:37:28,726
environment How do you see this role of
915
00:37:28,726 --> 00:37:32,266
media in sort of shaping this conversation
916
00:37:32,266 --> 00:37:34,554
around evangelical stories I think
917
00:37:34,554 --> 00:37:35,566
particularly around we're seeing more
918
00:37:35,566 --> 00:37:38,414
things come out in the press around
919
00:37:38,414 --> 00:37:39,758
spiritual abuse that's contributed to many
920
00:37:39,758 --> 00:37:41,646
who have ended up in this ex evangelical
921
00:37:41,646 --> 00:37:42,946
community What is sort of the role that
922
00:37:42,946 --> 00:37:48,418
you think the press can play Well I think
923
00:37:48,418 --> 00:37:50,734
it's actually gotten better at least over
924
00:37:50,734 --> 00:37:54,418
the course of my career 20 plus years or
925
00:37:54,418 --> 00:37:58,006
so at this point I think I see more well
926
00:37:58,006 --> 00:38:01,110
there are more publications out there and
927
00:38:01,110 --> 00:38:04,930
I see more people with frankly knowledge
928
00:38:04,930 --> 00:38:06,726
and experience in these communities in
929
00:38:06,726 --> 00:38:09,030
national media And I think that's a good
930
00:38:09,030 --> 00:38:11,354
thing I think too often evangelicals a
931
00:38:11,354 --> 00:38:13,546
sometimes reduced to and few talking heads
932
00:38:13,546 --> 00:38:16,218
and a few representatives of the movement
933
00:38:16,218 --> 00:38:17,978
when evangelicalism is such a big movement
934
00:38:17,978 --> 00:38:21,738
and it's not just white and it's not just
935
00:38:21,738 --> 00:38:24,298
one thing And so I think it's important to
936
00:38:24,298 --> 00:38:26,366
hear from people who've lived it not just
937
00:38:26,366 --> 00:38:28,154
their leaders who have an agenda that may
938
00:38:28,154 --> 00:38:31,246
or may not always align with them. people
939
00:38:31,246 --> 00:38:33,506
who follow them And that includes people
940
00:38:33,506 --> 00:38:35,860
who left it and who know this world
941
00:38:35,860 --> 00:38:40,594
firsthand and can sort of think you know
942
00:38:40,594 --> 00:38:43,860
one more voice in these larger discussions
943
00:38:43,860 --> 00:38:48,258
It's too easy just to know one famous
944
00:38:48,258 --> 00:38:49,598
leader and I'm not going to name names
945
00:38:49,598 --> 00:38:52,514
here but we can think of some of the and
946
00:38:52,514 --> 00:38:54,886
ask about the evangelical vote in Iowa or
947
00:38:54,886 --> 00:38:56,918
whatever And I've done that but it's more
948
00:38:56,918 --> 00:38:58,518
texture than that And that's why I think
949
00:38:58,518 --> 00:39:00,806
as a journalist I try to get out and talk
950
00:39:00,806 --> 00:39:02,614
to average people as much as I can and
951
00:39:02,614 --> 00:39:05,674
listen to what they're saying and try to
952
00:39:05,674 --> 00:39:06,758
understand how they're thinking But yeah
953
00:39:06,758 --> 00:39:08,026
again one of the reasons I wanted to write
954
00:39:08,026 --> 00:39:10,026
this book is just to keep creating about
955
00:39:10,026 --> 00:39:13,310
space to talk about the fact that there
956
00:39:13,310 --> 00:39:15,066
isn't just one evangelical experience And
957
00:39:15,066 --> 00:39:17,710
I think for journalists it's important to
958
00:39:17,710 --> 00:39:21,342
talk about all of that as honestly as
959
00:39:21,342 --> 00:39:23,902
possible and that requires having so
960
00:39:23,902 --> 00:39:26,258
context Yeah that's so good I know the
961
00:39:26,258 --> 00:39:29,714
life of a journalist is so busy There's
962
00:39:29,714 --> 00:39:31,698
just hard hours Deadlines come fast You're
963
00:39:31,698 --> 00:39:34,386
on planes and trains and dealing with
964
00:39:34,386 --> 00:39:35,266
getting to political rallies and stuff
965
00:39:35,266 --> 00:39:37,826
like that But to be able to take the time
966
00:39:37,826 --> 00:39:39,814
to interview people who don't maybe have a
967
00:39:39,814 --> 00:39:42,374
big platform just to hear from an average
968
00:39:42,374 --> 00:39:45,846
person in the pew or whatever can be
969
00:39:45,846 --> 00:39:48,374
really impactful Those parts of the
970
00:39:48,374 --> 00:39:49,926
stories that I read they stand out They
971
00:39:49,926 --> 00:39:51,318
really do because we kind of hear over and
972
00:39:51,318 --> 00:39:52,506
over again the people with the big
973
00:39:52,506 --> 00:39:53,818
platforms We kind of know what they're
974
00:39:53,818 --> 00:39:55,274
going to say There's management lot of
975
00:39:55,274 --> 00:39:56,966
image management with that but sometimes
976
00:39:56,966 --> 00:39:59,926
just talking to your average person really
977
00:39:59,926 --> 00:40:01,674
gets you some really gold nuggets there
978
00:40:01,674 --> 00:40:03,790
And so thank you for doing that work
979
00:40:03,790 --> 00:40:06,942
Really based on your research and your
980
00:40:06,942 --> 00:40:08,734
personal insights I'd be interested to
981
00:40:08,734 --> 00:40:11,130
know what advice you would give to
982
00:40:11,130 --> 00:40:12,894
somebody who's sort of navigating this
983
00:40:12,894 --> 00:40:14,906
journey right now We probably have people
984
00:40:14,906 --> 00:40:17,886
listening that are sort of on the fence
985
00:40:17,886 --> 00:40:20,434
about whether to stay evangelical 1ft in
986
00:40:20,434 --> 00:40:23,506
1ft out maybe those who are freshly left
987
00:40:23,506 --> 00:40:26,306
but some of those who are still trying to
988
00:40:26,306 --> 00:40:30,214
navigate their way out of it Were there
989
00:40:30,214 --> 00:40:32,038
any patterns that you saw as you were
990
00:40:32,038 --> 00:40:33,398
interviewing people Any advice that you
991
00:40:33,398 --> 00:40:38,566
have based on what you researched and read
992
00:40:38,566 --> 00:40:41,386
I mean I'm really hesitant to give advice
993
00:40:41,386 --> 00:40:47,706
because I'm a journalist and that's just
994
00:40:47,706 --> 00:40:49,146
not what I do I guess the only advice I
995
00:40:49,146 --> 00:40:51,946
would give would just be as me Sarah not
996
00:40:51,946 --> 00:40:54,126
as clear, journalist To be clear I'm not
997
00:40:54,126 --> 00:40:57,374
an expert. I'm not an expert Everybody is
998
00:40:57,374 --> 00:41:00,734
on their own journey I think if I could
999
00:41:00,734 --> 00:41:02,618
give advice to myself going back my
1000
00:41:02,618 --> 00:41:05,282
younger self that's probably what I most
1001
00:41:05,282 --> 00:41:07,826
comfortable saying I would tell myself to
1002
00:41:07,826 --> 00:41:13,010
not be afraid of questions to not be
1003
00:41:13,010 --> 00:41:14,786
afraid to learn Sometimes I feel like
1004
00:41:14,786 --> 00:41:17,902
looking back I had to sort of read go to
1005
00:41:17,902 --> 00:41:19,650
museums that talked about evolution or
1006
00:41:19,650 --> 00:41:22,726
read books about the history of religion
1007
00:41:22,726 --> 00:41:23,574
It's almost like squinting because I
1008
00:41:23,574 --> 00:41:25,554
didn't want to see something that would
1009
00:41:25,554 --> 00:41:28,242
rock my faith or threaten my belief system
1010
00:41:28,242 --> 00:41:31,034
because it is so scary to think about
1011
00:41:31,034 --> 00:41:31,786
changing your mind about something And
1012
00:41:31,786 --> 00:41:33,866
then it's sort of like well where does it
1013
00:41:33,866 --> 00:41:38,938
go And I just want to fully acknowledge
1014
00:41:38,938 --> 00:41:41,306
that fear And I think if I could go back
1015
00:41:41,306 --> 00:41:44,526
to my younger self I would say don't be
1016
00:41:44,526 --> 00:41:46,926
afraid of questions Try to find trusted
1017
00:41:46,926 --> 00:41:48,350
people whether that's people in your
1018
00:41:48,350 --> 00:41:51,840
church or outside of it people who are of
1019
00:41:51,840 --> 00:41:55,426
goodwill and that love you and tell them
1020
00:41:55,426 --> 00:41:57,826
what you thinking about and you have to
1021
00:41:57,826 --> 00:42:00,574
choose those people wisely But I think I
1022
00:42:00,574 --> 00:42:02,258
found them to some extent Even at my a
1023
00:42:02,258 --> 00:42:06,626
college I had that lot of professors that
1024
00:42:06,626 --> 00:42:07,950
were very thoughtful people and that I
1025
00:42:07,950 --> 00:42:09,526
could talk to about some of these things
1026
00:42:09,526 --> 00:42:13,606
like not everything all at once but pieces
1027
00:42:13,606 --> 00:42:16,774
of it And then I have an aunt who is not
1028
00:42:16,774 --> 00:42:18,978
religious but is spiritual And she's been
1029
00:42:18,978 --> 00:42:21,226
someone in my adult life who's been really
1030
00:42:21,226 --> 00:42:22,966
helpful supporting just sort of supporting
1031
00:42:22,966 --> 00:42:25,770
me and loving me regardless of what I
1032
00:42:25,770 --> 00:42:29,706
think with no strings attached for myself
1033
00:42:29,706 --> 00:42:31,306
I think there have been times when I felt
1034
00:42:31,306 --> 00:42:33,310
like I didn't know if it was okay to pray
1035
00:42:33,310 --> 00:42:35,966
if I didn't really believe or if I wasn't
1036
00:42:35,966 --> 00:42:38,334
sure what I believed Was I just talking to
1037
00:42:38,334 --> 00:42:41,818
thin air or was my prayer insincere or
1038
00:42:41,818 --> 00:42:45,118
something But I think it's okay to pray
1039
00:42:45,118 --> 00:42:46,446
anytime you want And I don't think you
1040
00:42:46,446 --> 00:42:49,726
have to know exactly what you think about
1041
00:42:49,726 --> 00:42:51,666
that's I think something that's been kind
1042
00:42:51,666 --> 00:42:53,746
of nice for me as I've gotten a little bit
1043
00:42:53,746 --> 00:42:55,654
older is that I almost feel like I have
1044
00:42:55,654 --> 00:42:57,318
that impulse to pray more now than I did
1045
00:42:57,318 --> 00:43:01,174
when I felt like I had to figure things
1046
00:43:01,174 --> 00:43:07,250
out first I don't think that God needs me
1047
00:43:07,250 --> 00:43:09,122
to have a systematic theology worked out
1048
00:43:09,122 --> 00:43:11,386
before I say also prayer And I also look
1049
00:43:11,386 --> 00:43:13,318
around the world and I realize that humans
1050
00:43:13,318 --> 00:43:15,690
have prayed in all kinds of different ways
1051
00:43:15,690 --> 00:43:19,820
and it's a very human impulse And I think
1052
00:43:19,820 --> 00:43:22,894
that that is beautiful and should be part
1053
00:43:22,894 --> 00:43:26,446
of that process too for those who want it
1054
00:43:26,446 --> 00:43:29,646
to be Great advice to your younger self
1055
00:43:29,646 --> 00:43:33,566
And we all gleaned from it it's beautiful
1056
00:43:33,566 --> 00:43:35,506
As you think about the people that you
1057
00:43:35,506 --> 00:43:38,002
interviewed for this book and then what
1058
00:43:38,002 --> 00:43:40,482
you're seeing kind of happen right now We
1059
00:43:40,482 --> 00:43:43,794
are in a election year There's a lot of
1060
00:43:43,794 --> 00:43:48,046
talk out there We see a lot of the Gen Z
1061
00:43:48,046 --> 00:43:49,846
that are eligible to vote this time. that
1062
00:43:49,846 --> 00:43:53,026
weren't last time And as you mentioned
1063
00:43:53,026 --> 00:43:55,046
they're much more diverse They've been
1064
00:43:55,046 --> 00:43:56,898
raised to social media My 16 year old told
1065
00:43:56,898 --> 00:43:59,318
me the other day she's like we look at
1066
00:43:59,318 --> 00:44:00,886
millennials and they're like the last
1067
00:44:00,886 --> 00:44:02,854
generation a wasn't raised with a phone
1068
00:44:02,854 --> 00:44:05,290
Sometimes we kind of envy them Like she
1069
00:44:05,290 --> 00:44:08,666
likes to watch early 2000 movies because
1070
00:44:08,666 --> 00:44:10,138
like that time before we have happening
1071
00:44:10,138 --> 00:44:11,914
lot of changes happening certainly our
1072
00:44:11,914 --> 00:44:13,270
society And certainly the ex angelicals
1073
00:44:13,270 --> 00:44:16,314
here in the US are a huge part of it So
1074
00:44:16,314 --> 00:44:18,762
what future developments or trends do you
1075
00:44:18,762 --> 00:44:19,726
anticipate for the exvangelical movement
1076
00:44:19,726 --> 00:44:26,382
and maybe its sort of impact on broader
1077
00:44:26,382 --> 00:44:27,058
religious and cultural landscapes Again I
1078
00:44:27,058 --> 00:44:28,706
don't like to make a ton of predictions
1079
00:44:28,706 --> 00:44:31,378
It's funny though I've had similar
1080
00:44:31,378 --> 00:44:33,826
conversations with my kids especially my
1081
00:44:33,826 --> 00:44:36,214
younger one about nostalgia for a time
1082
00:44:36,214 --> 00:44:39,378
that he never knew and that I don't
1083
00:44:39,378 --> 00:44:41,400
remember that well and I'm sure you don't
1084
00:44:41,400 --> 00:44:45,830
either that well But yes nonetheless I
1085
00:44:45,830 --> 00:44:48,598
guess I have more questions than
1086
00:44:48,598 --> 00:44:51,898
predictions I'm curious to see where sort
1087
00:44:51,898 --> 00:44:54,774
of younger exvangelicals people who maybe
1088
00:44:54,774 --> 00:44:56,298
were raised with some evangelical
1089
00:44:56,298 --> 00:44:57,914
tradition but have sort of stepped away
1090
00:44:57,914 --> 00:44:59,818
from it where they go if they don't have
1091
00:44:59,818 --> 00:45:00,938
their own religious tradition This is
1092
00:45:00,938 --> 00:45:03,094
something that I touch on in the book is
1093
00:45:03,094 --> 00:45:04,590
just the challenge of figuring out when
1094
00:45:04,590 --> 00:45:06,746
you form your own family how to form that
1095
00:45:06,746 --> 00:45:08,366
family and how to raise your kids and what
1096
00:45:08,366 --> 00:45:12,206
to tell them if you yourself are
1097
00:45:12,206 --> 00:45:13,682
deconstructing or uncertain about what
1098
00:45:13,682 --> 00:45:18,674
your want to. attach your identity to And
1099
00:45:18,674 --> 00:45:20,626
I'm also curious about how churches
1100
00:45:20,626 --> 00:45:23,650
respond I touched on this a moment ago but
1101
00:45:23,650 --> 00:45:27,702
will churches figure out ways to I mean
1102
00:45:27,702 --> 00:45:29,526
genuinely welcome people who are not just
1103
00:45:29,526 --> 00:45:33,094
say you can come and be with us and we'll
1104
00:45:33,094 --> 00:45:35,974
tolerate you but will there be more
1105
00:45:35,974 --> 00:45:41,910
religious spaces for people who don't feel
1106
00:45:41,910 --> 00:45:44,666
comfortable with christian traditional
1107
00:45:44,666 --> 00:45:46,426
evangelical or christian set of beliefs I
1108
00:45:46,426 --> 00:45:49,626
visited a church like that in Nashville
1109
00:45:49,626 --> 00:45:51,466
and wrote about it sort of later in the
1110
00:45:51,466 --> 00:45:53,726
book and it was interesting to see kind of
1111
00:45:53,726 --> 00:45:56,094
how that worked and how that felt And I
1112
00:45:56,094 --> 00:45:59,930
think we might see more in like that
1113
00:45:59,930 --> 00:46:02,078
particularly in again an increasingly
1114
00:46:02,078 --> 00:46:03,134
diverse and secularized society I think
1115
00:46:03,134 --> 00:46:07,330
people are always going to need connection
1116
00:46:07,330 --> 00:46:09,074
and look for meaning but where they find
1117
00:46:09,074 --> 00:46:12,386
it I think might Change a little bit Yeah
1118
00:46:12,386 --> 00:46:14,290
I think so I think we're seeing that here
1119
00:46:14,290 --> 00:46:17,506
on the west coast too A know just finding
1120
00:46:17,506 --> 00:46:19,798
new ways And certainly the pandemic had
1121
00:46:19,798 --> 00:46:22,182
its own factors and a lot of that for a
1122
00:46:22,182 --> 00:46:25,318
lot of people So yeah interesting to hear
1123
00:46:25,318 --> 00:46:27,094
your perspective on that Well I do want to
1124
00:46:27,094 --> 00:46:28,374
ask you one more question and we'll have
1125
00:46:28,374 --> 00:46:31,654
you hang out again later for our Patreon
1126
00:46:31,654 --> 00:46:33,658
our difference makers community But for
1127
00:46:33,658 --> 00:46:35,194
this conversation I do just a to give you
1128
00:46:35,194 --> 00:46:37,466
a chance to let people know if they want
1129
00:46:37,466 --> 00:46:39,946
to read more about what you're writing How
1130
00:46:39,946 --> 00:46:45,066
can people find you Where are you And let
1131
00:46:45,066 --> 00:46:47,166
people know I'm on all the social medias
1132
00:46:47,166 --> 00:46:48,974
pretty much but I'm trying to write more
1133
00:46:48,974 --> 00:46:50,126
and more on substac because I feel like I
1134
00:46:50,126 --> 00:46:52,458
can have nuanced little bit more nuanced a
1135
00:46:52,458 --> 00:46:55,186
and I share a little bit about life on the
1136
00:46:55,186 --> 00:46:58,322
road as a reporter and also sometimes
1137
00:46:58,322 --> 00:47:02,290
personal things I'm and mom of teens and
1138
00:47:02,290 --> 00:47:08,802
tween so to be teen so I'm just Sarah
1139
00:47:08,802 --> 00:47:10,886
McCammon on substac MCCA Mmon And my
1140
00:47:10,886 --> 00:47:13,622
substac is called off the air because it's
1141
00:47:13,622 --> 00:47:17,480
kind of my little side project when I'm
1142
00:47:17,480 --> 00:47:20,826
not on the radio and I'm unfortunately
1143
00:47:20,826 --> 00:47:23,386
still on Twitter and my dms are open but I
1144
00:47:23,386 --> 00:47:26,010
would just encourage everybody to start at
1145
00:47:26,010 --> 00:47:30,726
substack I free to subscribe I do take
1146
00:47:30,726 --> 00:47:32,874
paid subscribers but everything I've never
1147
00:47:32,874 --> 00:47:34,878
put anything behind and paywall so far and
1148
00:47:34,878 --> 00:47:38,650
don't plan on it as long as I am employed
1149
00:47:38,650 --> 00:47:41,150
full time as really journalist So it's
1150
00:47:41,150 --> 00:47:42,894
really just mostly for fun and stay nice
1151
00:47:42,894 --> 00:47:44,550
way to stay in touch with people who are
1152
00:47:44,550 --> 00:47:46,706
interested interested the things I'm
1153
00:47:46,706 --> 00:47:48,862
interested in Awesome Yeah I love your
1154
00:47:48,862 --> 00:47:50,658
substack And everybody go subscribe to the
1155
00:47:50,658 --> 00:47:53,394
substack And if you have a little extra
1156
00:47:53,394 --> 00:47:58,326
money let her be paid for her work Only if
1157
00:47:58,326 --> 00:48:01,880
you want to It's like public media We say
1158
00:48:01,880 --> 00:48:06,166
you can but you know Set them into giving
1159
00:48:06,166 --> 00:48:08,866
you a little support Thank you so much for
1160
00:48:08,866 --> 00:48:10,038
this conversation today Sarah It's be so
1161
00:48:10,038 --> 00:48:11,594
great to be able to read your book get to
1162
00:48:11,594 --> 00:48:13,558
know you a little better through your
1163
00:48:13,558 --> 00:48:14,938
writing and through this conversation And
1164
00:48:14,938 --> 00:48:18,794
yeah thank you for the great work that you
1165
00:48:18,794 --> 00:48:21,238
do Thank you so much This has been great
1166
00:48:21,238 --> 00:48:24,382
I'm so grateful for that very nuanced
1167
00:48:24,382 --> 00:48:26,426
conversation with Sarah I just love
1168
00:48:26,426 --> 00:48:29,134
hearing her perspective I loved reading
1169
00:48:29,134 --> 00:48:31,786
her book It's so well written She's a good
1170
00:48:31,786 --> 00:48:33,582
writer but she also brings herself into
1171
00:48:33,582 --> 00:48:36,786
the story Her own personal narrative is so
1172
00:48:36,786 --> 00:48:39,362
compelling but she's in the middle of
1173
00:48:39,362 --> 00:48:40,814
history walking alongside things happening
1174
00:48:40,814 --> 00:48:43,586
with the Donald Trump campaign in real
1175
00:48:43,586 --> 00:48:46,306
time She's very vulnerable about her own
1176
00:48:46,306 --> 00:48:47,954
upbringing in white evangelicalism and in
1177
00:48:47,954 --> 00:48:50,886
her family What that was like for her and
1178
00:48:50,886 --> 00:48:51,974
know includes personal narratives of
1179
00:48:51,974 --> 00:48:55,186
others that she spoke to about the book as
1180
00:48:55,186 --> 00:48:57,726
she was researching this exvangelical
1181
00:48:57,726 --> 00:49:01,802
community with so much nuance so much care
1182
00:49:01,802 --> 00:49:04,506
And it's really beautiful book It really
1183
00:49:04,506 --> 00:49:07,594
helps dig deep For those of you in any
1184
00:49:07,594 --> 00:49:10,234
religious environment the currently or in
1185
00:49:10,234 --> 00:49:14,046
the past you will find this book to be so
1186
00:49:14,046 --> 00:49:16,062
insightful She really brings that lot of
1187
00:49:16,062 --> 00:49:20,042
nuance that we so much need in the
1188
00:49:20,042 --> 00:49:21,374
conversation and she just authentically
1189
00:49:21,374 --> 00:49:24,078
shows us kind of where she's at And a so
1190
00:49:24,078 --> 00:49:26,514
refreshing in management, world of image
1191
00:49:26,514 --> 00:49:28,946
management both in politics and religion
1192
00:49:28,946 --> 00:49:31,218
And so yeah I found her book just so
1193
00:49:31,218 --> 00:49:34,226
compelling So do check it out It's called
1194
00:49:34,226 --> 00:49:36,222
the exvangelicals Loving living and
1195
00:49:36,222 --> 00:49:38,446
leaving the white evangelical church It
1196
00:49:38,446 --> 00:49:40,566
releases on March 19 but go preorder
1197
00:49:40,566 --> 00:49:44,038
because that definitely helps the book
1198
00:49:44,038 --> 00:49:45,846
sales And yeah we want to help people like
1199
00:49:45,846 --> 00:49:47,526
Sarah out because we want to continue to
1200
00:49:47,526 --> 00:49:49,686
hear her voice read her writing and have
1201
00:49:49,686 --> 00:49:51,926
her be there at the table as we're
1202
00:49:51,926 --> 00:49:53,818
learning from her and what she's covering
1203
00:49:53,818 --> 00:49:57,078
in the news as a journalist So a her work
1204
00:49:57,078 --> 00:49:58,854
as a journalist and helping us see the
1205
00:49:58,854 --> 00:50:00,234
nuance and just her courage to walked
1206
00:50:00,234 --> 00:50:01,962
through what she walked through in the
1207
00:50:01,962 --> 00:50:03,658
time of the Donald Trump campaign And one
1208
00:50:03,658 --> 00:50:06,174
that's kind of one of the most compelling
1209
00:50:06,174 --> 00:50:07,486
parts of the book that really kind of
1210
00:50:07,486 --> 00:50:09,754
brought me to a There is just a really
1211
00:50:09,754 --> 00:50:11,278
beautiful moment even the introduction
1212
00:50:11,278 --> 00:50:12,926
that she describes and I can't imagine
1213
00:50:12,926 --> 00:50:14,954
what that was like the trauma that her
1214
00:50:14,954 --> 00:50:18,226
body must have felt by being sort of the
1215
00:50:18,226 --> 00:50:21,522
target of anger lot of this anger and
1216
00:50:21,522 --> 00:50:23,634
frenzy in those moments But she really is
1217
00:50:23,634 --> 00:50:25,186
so courageous stories bring us those to
1218
00:50:25,186 --> 00:50:27,574
and to continue to bring us stories as
1219
00:50:27,574 --> 00:50:29,494
we're in another election year with Donald
1220
00:50:29,494 --> 00:50:32,454
Trump up for president once again And so
1221
00:50:32,454 --> 00:50:34,630
please continue to follow her work once
1222
00:50:34,630 --> 00:50:37,958
again Look for her McCammon, Twitter at
1223
00:50:37,958 --> 00:50:40,150
Sarah McCammon and then also subscribe to
1224
00:50:40,150 --> 00:50:42,026
her substack off the air She's once again
1225
00:50:42,026 --> 00:50:43,834
just a great writer and she brings such
1226
00:50:43,834 --> 00:50:45,818
good insight We really need her voice and
1227
00:50:45,818 --> 00:50:48,778
she truly is making a difference So
1228
00:50:48,778 --> 00:50:50,666
grateful for her to be on the show today
1229
00:50:50,666 --> 00:50:52,886
And for those of you who haven't been
1230
00:50:52,886 --> 00:50:54,826
following her until now I'm so glad to
1231
00:50:54,826 --> 00:50:56,846
introduce you to her and to elevate her
1232
00:50:56,846 --> 00:50:59,278
voice to amplify her out to the world
1233
00:50:59,278 --> 00:51:00,686
Wherever you listen around the world to
1234
00:51:00,686 --> 00:51:02,446
this podcast I do hope you start to follow
1235
00:51:02,446 --> 00:51:05,002
Sarah and I'd love to hear what your
1236
00:51:05,002 --> 00:51:06,850
thoughts were on today's podcast Did this
1237
00:51:06,850 --> 00:51:10,510
bring in up for you in the political sense
1238
00:51:10,510 --> 00:51:12,434
of the Donald Trump campaign or what
1239
00:51:12,434 --> 00:51:14,766
happened in the United States in the 2016
1240
00:51:14,766 --> 00:51:18,946
election cycle or even what's in up this
1241
00:51:18,946 --> 00:51:21,814
year being 2024 or just being a part of an
1242
00:51:21,814 --> 00:51:23,126
ex evangelical community If you identify
1243
00:51:23,126 --> 00:51:24,726
that way I would love to hear what your
1244
00:51:24,726 --> 00:51:27,446
thoughts are about what we discussed today
1245
00:51:27,446 --> 00:51:28,934
and whether this sounded kind of like your
1246
00:51:28,934 --> 00:51:30,058
experience or whether there were
1247
00:51:30,058 --> 00:51:32,566
differences that you want to bring up or
1248
00:51:32,566 --> 00:51:34,890
if you're in any faith community and
1249
00:51:34,890 --> 00:51:37,094
you've been having some questions I do
1250
00:51:37,094 --> 00:51:40,538
just love the way Sarah talked about that
1251
00:51:40,538 --> 00:51:42,778
The fear around asking questions or the
1252
00:51:42,778 --> 00:51:44,258
fear around looking for something outside
1253
00:51:44,258 --> 00:51:47,166
of what you've been taught in your faith
1254
00:51:47,166 --> 00:51:48,654
community The fear around that I just
1255
00:51:48,654 --> 00:51:49,966
loved her honesty and her authenticity
1256
00:51:49,966 --> 00:51:52,142
about it because that is because very real
1257
00:51:52,142 --> 00:51:53,666
experience because you don't always know
1258
00:51:53,666 --> 00:51:55,442
where it will lead What will this mean in
1259
00:51:55,442 --> 00:51:59,314
terms of if I leave this faith community
1260
00:51:59,314 --> 00:52:01,634
practicing my religion in this particular
1261
00:52:01,634 --> 00:52:05,826
way in this denomination or in this or of
1262
00:52:05,826 --> 00:52:08,614
my faith or even your faith in general
1263
00:52:08,614 --> 00:52:10,914
your entire religion in general all of
1264
00:52:10,914 --> 00:52:13,506
that can be very is like the ground is
1265
00:52:13,506 --> 00:52:15,734
falling out beneath your feet or that the
1266
00:52:15,734 --> 00:52:17,686
floor is unstable your very foundation
1267
00:52:17,686 --> 00:52:20,634
feels shaken and it's hard to know which
1268
00:52:20,634 --> 00:52:22,938
way is north And that description of what
1269
00:52:22,938 --> 00:52:25,626
she talked about is because very real
1270
00:52:25,626 --> 00:52:26,614
experience because our identities are
1271
00:52:26,614 --> 00:52:29,226
wrapped up in our faith communities and
1272
00:52:29,226 --> 00:52:31,546
that's usually our families and our
1273
00:52:31,546 --> 00:52:34,378
friends And to question those things is
1274
00:52:34,378 --> 00:52:36,606
very difficult And I have a lot of
1275
00:52:36,606 --> 00:52:38,110
compassion on anybody walking through that
1276
00:52:38,110 --> 00:52:39,934
So please do reach out Once again we go a
1277
00:52:39,934 --> 00:52:41,738
little bit deeper with her in our
1278
00:52:41,738 --> 00:52:46,106
difference maker community So I'd love to
1279
00:52:46,106 --> 00:52:54,542
have you stop by ww.patreon That's P A T R
1280
00:52:54,542 --> 00:52:57,970
E O N of That's Patreon
1281
00:52:57,970 --> 00:53:00,022
Comaworldofdifference You can come in
1282
00:53:00,022 --> 00:53:02,118
there try some of our in depth more going
1283
00:53:02,118 --> 00:53:03,334
deeper with different guests and including
1284
00:53:03,334 --> 00:53:06,726
Sarah where we go a little bit deeper with
1285
00:53:06,726 --> 00:53:07,574
her around this conversation exclusively
1286
00:53:07,574 --> 00:53:08,694
for you difference makers And you can try
1287
00:53:08,694 --> 00:53:11,474
it out for free for a little bit see if
1288
00:53:11,474 --> 00:53:12,898
you like it and then subscribe on a
1289
00:53:12,898 --> 00:53:14,986
monthly or yearly basis But would love to
1290
00:53:14,986 --> 00:53:17,690
have you in there where we can dm you can
1291
00:53:17,690 --> 00:53:18,746
interact with other people in the
1292
00:53:18,746 --> 00:53:21,030
community and we can kind of sit at the
1293
00:53:21,030 --> 00:53:23,274
table and learn how to make a difference
1294
00:53:23,274 --> 00:53:24,906
together around this conversation and many
1295
00:53:24,906 --> 00:53:25,678
other conversations I think there's
1296
00:53:25,678 --> 00:53:28,286
something like 75 posts in there now So
1297
00:53:28,286 --> 00:53:30,366
when you join you get access to those And
1298
00:53:30,366 --> 00:53:32,270
yeah would love to have you show up there
1299
00:53:32,270 --> 00:53:34,558
because together. whole point of this
1300
00:53:34,558 --> 00:53:36,574
podcast is us making a difference together
1301
00:53:36,574 --> 00:53:37,966
I really appreciate each of your
1302
00:53:37,966 --> 00:53:39,760
differences each of you listening around
1303
00:53:39,760 --> 00:53:44,206
the world I hope that yourself, take a
1304
00:53:44,206 --> 00:53:46,086
moment today to just love yourself care
1305
00:53:46,086 --> 00:53:46,994
for yourself and recognize your
1306
00:53:46,994 --> 00:53:47,894
differences are beautiful beautiful And
1307
00:53:47,894 --> 00:53:50,054
when you bring those to the table and you
1308
00:53:50,054 --> 00:53:52,306
bring your full self to the table these
1309
00:53:52,306 --> 00:53:54,402
world becomes brains better place when we
1310
00:53:54,402 --> 00:53:55,974
make decisions with these diversity of
1311
00:53:55,974 --> 00:53:57,718
brains around the table So glad Sarah
1312
00:53:57,718 --> 00:53:58,806
brought her perspective and her brain
1313
00:53:58,806 --> 00:54:02,054
around the table today And I do hope that