The ripple effects of sexual violence: Rowena Chiu's story of trauma and advocacy

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Welcome to the a World of Difference

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podcast. I'm Lori Adams Brown and this is

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a podcast for those who are different and

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want to make a difference. This podcast is

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10% off your first month of therapy. That

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is www.betterhelp.com difference to get

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10% off your first month. Today, today I'm

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honored to welcome to the show abuse

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survivor and advocate Rowena Chu. Rowena

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worked for Harvey Weinstein and as a

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survivor of sexual assault at the hands of

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Harvey Weinstein when she was an assistant

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working for him. And she's also a hashtag

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too, activist, advocate, speaker,

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wonderful human being and writer. She

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wrote an op ed that many of you may have

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read in the New York Times describing her

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experience after having to be what she

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calls like the 20 years of silence, has

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been able to tell her story and wrote an

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op ed in the New York Times called Harvey

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Weinstein told me he liked chinese girls

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back in October of 2019. Rowena once again

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is a former assistant to Miramax CEO

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Harvey Weinstein and it was 1998 where she

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was sexually assaulted and had an NDA that

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she was required to sign. And so for 21

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years she was silent. She spoke about her

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experience. Finally, when things started

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to come out in the hashtag metoo movement,

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and you may have also seen her featured in

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the show, the movie, she said, rowena is

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an incredible human being. She's a

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wonderful now friend and I am so honored

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to have her on the show today, but that

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does come with a trigger warning. So if

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you have experienced sexual assault or

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abuse of any kind in a workplace

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environment or in any scenario, I just

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want to urge you to take care of yourself

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today. So listener discretion is advised.

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But on that note, for those of you who are

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going to stick with us or take this in

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chunks, however the case may be, I am so

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honored to bring Rowena on the show today

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because she's not only able to speak about

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her own experience now after all these

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years, but she is definitely an advocate

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for abuse, both in workplace environments,

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working with laws to help get those passed

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here in the United States. And she also

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speaks around the world about her

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experience for the hashtag too movement.

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And she is increasingly speaking in faith

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communities because she grew up as a

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Christian and churches and also realizes

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that abuse and church environments, and

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workplace environments in the church as

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well, are spaces where her voice really

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can make a difference. And so excited to

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bring her voice to you today if you've not

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had a chance to hear her before. But

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welcome to the show, my friend, Rowena

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Chu. Hello, Rowena. And a very warm

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welcome today to the World of Difference

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podcast. It's great to see you again. I'm

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excited to be here. It was so great to

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finally meet in person after connecting on

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social media and have brunch not long ago.

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We both live here in California. So glad

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we could make that know we had this very

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instant connection because we're know very

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passionate about some of the topics we're

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going to discuss today. But also, when I

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think about that know when we first met

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until now, I think about how when two

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people come together for the work of

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justice and speaking things out loud that

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are often not spoken out loud, it can be a

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very beautiful and horrible thing to hold

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at the same time. So I really appreciate

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you showing up today for this very

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difficult but hopefully really beautiful

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conversation. Of course. So my first

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question for you, right out the gate, I

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know you get a lot of interviews, you've

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written quite a bit about your experience.

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But because this is the world of

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difference podcast and we have once again,

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people around the world this week

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celebrating Lunar New Year, which is very

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exciting. You're the dragon. Yay. But also

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we're celebrating for some people, they

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celebrate Valentine's Day. There's a lot

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of just holiday celebrations happening. I

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just know that you have a lot of beautiful

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background that has a lot of diversity in

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it. And so would you give us a little bit

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about what formed you, the cultures that

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formed you, the places that formed you,

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sort of in a nutshell. So we kind of

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understand where you're coming from. Yes,

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absolutely. So both my parents were born

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in China, but they went to Hong Kong for

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their primary and secondary education. And

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actually, my grandparents and great

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grandparents were early christians in

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China. So my parents'families were

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religious refugees from mainland China and

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they ended up in Hong Kong for primary and

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secondary education. But then both my

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parents came to the UK for tertiary

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education and met and married there. And

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my sister and I were born there. So I

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identify as british born Chinese. And I

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think that's really complicated in a world

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where Asian can mean many different

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things. There's many different

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understandings of what it means to be

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asian. There's the idea of being second

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generation or first and a half generation,

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so you hear many different iterations. But

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I would call myself british born Chinese

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because I was born in the UK. I grew up in

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the UK. I think of myself as very british

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on the inside, I suppose, yellow on the

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outside. So I'm what you call a banana.

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But it's been very interesting for me

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because since I graduated university, I've

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lived all around the world. I've lived in

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Asia, in several countries in Asia. I've

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lived in several countries in Africa. I've

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lived and worked across Europe, obviously,

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and I'm now in my 17th year, which is

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staggering of being in the US. So I feel

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that I know all four of these continents

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pretty well, and I've had many different

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cultural experiences in each of them. And

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I think that's interesting because the

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metoo story is, at the end of the day, a

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global story that touches women everywhere

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from many different cultures. And so I've

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been privileged to go and speak into each

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one of these cultures that formed part of

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my identity. And for me, it feels very

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much like a giving back when I'm able to

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go to a culture or visit a city where I

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previously lived and discuss the metoo

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movement. It is really a reimmersion for

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me in the culture that I once belonged to

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and also a kind of speaking into that

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culture by way of a gift. That's so

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beautiful, and you really are making such

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a huge difference. I think speaking some

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of these hard things out loud really is a

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way to give language to people for what's

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hard to talk about. And I know with all

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the mix of your cultures, the chinese

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culture in particular, that's so

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formational with you, even though you were

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british born and raised, can be especially

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hard to talk about. And with the

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intersection of the chinese community and

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Christianity, it often can be especially

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difficult to address some of these things.

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So I know I'm imagining people sitting at

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these roundtables for Lunar New Year

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having delicious food with their families,

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and maybe somebody at that table has

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experienced something really hard, and

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they don't know how to talk about it. How

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is that part of your know, significant for

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you? Yeah, I think that's true, because,

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of course, Lunar New Year is in Asia, much

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like Christmas might be in the west. It's

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a really big festival of the year where

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people get a whole week off work, and

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people often travel long distances to go

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and reunite with their families. And so I

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think you raise a really good point in

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that sexual assault survivors who have

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been triggered by their experiences or

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might be holding a secret that they

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haven't told their families, it is a

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particularly hard time of the year in the

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way that Christmas might be in the west,

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because there is a lot of social pressure

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to be united, to form a family front, to

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make your family proud. And I think a lot

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of chinese culture is, at the end of the

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day, a communal culture, in the sense that

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it's a collectivist culture, I should say,

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in the sense that it is very much imbued

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on you when you are young, that you are

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part of a larger family group, not just

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your own biological family, actually, but

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even your whole race, as in the idea of

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calling anyone from a chinese background

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an auntie or an uncle, an older person an

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auntie or an uncle, or calling younger

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children little brother and little sister,

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that idea that we all belong to one

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another and we're all interconnected and

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interrelated. And so that brings me on to

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the point that when a sexual assault takes

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place, it is not just damaging for the

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survivor, but is damaging for their entire

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community, their immediate family, for

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sure, their wider family. It may create a

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rift in the sense that they're not willing

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to speak about it. They might change a lot

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in terms of the person that they are. They

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might become depressed. They might not be

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able to function in the way that they used

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to. They may become withdrawn from

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relationships. So I think it is really

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important to see sexual assault survival

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not just in the context of supporting

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survivors themselves as individuals to

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whom. Who have been through a traumatic

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and heinous experience, but to think about

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that in the situation of the culture and

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the community and the family, the wider

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family in which they sit, whether that's a

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church family, a biological family, or.

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There are many different ways of

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interpreting the word family, but I always

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prefer to use the broadest possible

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interpretation. Yeah, no, it's really

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helpful. I know that a lot of people

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listening to this are already just feeling

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understood and seen and heard just by you.

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Sharing that. It can be very lonely for

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abuse survivors of any kind and sexual

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assault survivors in particular. And I

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know when the hashtag me too movement was

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sort of gaining momentum. You,

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unfortunately, are someone who. You have

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an experience, a devastating experience

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that you have survived and you are

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surviving. But making the decision to

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speak that out loud publicly is a whole

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other ballgame for people. So it's one

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thing to share with your family around the

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00:10:55,706 --> 00:10:58,590
dinner table, Lunar New Year's celebration

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or privately with your mom, maybe. But to

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come out very publicly the way that you

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did is a very courageous and inspiring

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act. And I know that you've made such a

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difference in so many people's lives. But

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I'd love for you to share a little bit

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about your decision, the journey leading

279
00:11:12,546 --> 00:11:14,978
up to that decision of speaking out

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against Harvey Weinstein. Yes. Yes. And

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forgive me in advance because this answer

282
00:11:20,086 --> 00:11:22,038
may be a bit long. But I wanted to speak

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to those of you that weren't necessarily

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as familiar with my story. So I wanted to

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offer some by way of background. I wanted

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to say the bare facts were that I was 24

287
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years old at the time when I went to work

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for Harvey Weinstein and Miramax films.

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And within a few weeks, actually, of my

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employment there, I had traveled with

291
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Harvey Weinstein to the Venice Film

292
00:11:41,350 --> 00:11:43,926
Festival along with another young british

293
00:11:43,926 --> 00:11:46,174
assistant. I was 24 at the time. She was

294
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25 at the time. I was assaulted in a hotel

295
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room by Harvey Weinstein where we were

296
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working as part of the Venice Film

297
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festival. I reported the assault

298
00:11:55,694 --> 00:11:57,314
immediately to my superior, who was this

299
00:11:57,314 --> 00:11:59,090
young woman who's only a year older than

300
00:11:59,090 --> 00:12:02,654
me. Her name's Zelda Perkins. She reacted

301
00:12:02,654 --> 00:12:04,642
immediately. She both confronted Harvey

302
00:12:04,642 --> 00:12:06,466
and made sure that I wasn't in a room with

303
00:12:06,466 --> 00:12:08,566
him again. And actually, when we went back

304
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to London, we took matters further in the

305
00:12:10,934 --> 00:12:12,946
sense that we invoked constructive

306
00:12:12,946 --> 00:12:15,186
dismissal. We resigned from our jobs. We

307
00:12:15,186 --> 00:12:17,042
attempted to report Harvey first

308
00:12:17,042 --> 00:12:19,894
internally to HR within Miramax and then

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externally to the police. We lawyered up

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and we were forced into signing a

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nondisclosure agreement which then

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silenced the two of us for a period of 20

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years. And in those 20 years, we were not

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00:12:33,674 --> 00:12:36,078
permitted to talk to our friends, our

315
00:12:36,078 --> 00:12:38,970
family, doctors, lawyers, church

316
00:12:38,970 --> 00:12:40,958
ministers, therapists. There's a very long

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00:12:40,958 --> 00:12:42,414
list of professionals that we could not

318
00:12:42,414 --> 00:12:44,254
speak to and nor could we speak to anyone

319
00:12:44,254 --> 00:12:46,046
within our own private lives. So I refer

320
00:12:46,046 --> 00:12:48,638
to that period of time as 20 years of

321
00:12:48,638 --> 00:12:50,306
silence. For those who are familiar with

322
00:12:50,306 --> 00:12:52,946
my story, you'll know that in 2017, the

323
00:12:52,946 --> 00:12:55,522
New York Times came to my doorstep and

324
00:12:55,522 --> 00:12:58,798
actually broke my story to my husband in a

325
00:12:58,798 --> 00:13:01,942
non consensual way. I had not agreed to

326
00:13:01,942 --> 00:13:04,198
speak to my husband about it, or in fact,

327
00:13:04,198 --> 00:13:06,166
I was legally obligated, I would say, not

328
00:13:06,166 --> 00:13:08,214
to speak to my husband about it. So that

329
00:13:08,214 --> 00:13:12,186
was quite a story. I actually was willing

330
00:13:12,186 --> 00:13:14,662
for my story to be passed with the

331
00:13:14,662 --> 00:13:16,106
investigation, but I didn't want my name

332
00:13:16,106 --> 00:13:18,742
to be in public. And I think there are

333
00:13:18,742 --> 00:13:20,506
complicated and myriad reasons why that

334
00:13:20,506 --> 00:13:23,498
was true. At that time, my parents didn't

335
00:13:23,498 --> 00:13:25,774
know of my story. My sister didn't know of

336
00:13:25,774 --> 00:13:28,394
my story. A lot of my close friends from

337
00:13:28,394 --> 00:13:30,542
university and my early work days who were

338
00:13:30,542 --> 00:13:32,378
around in the 1990s when I worked for

339
00:13:32,378 --> 00:13:34,302
Harvey Weinstein, didn't know of the

340
00:13:34,302 --> 00:13:36,482
story. And I felt they might be hurt. I

341
00:13:36,482 --> 00:13:38,914
think they would feel that I didn't trust

342
00:13:38,914 --> 00:13:40,594
them at the time, and I didn't tell them

343
00:13:40,594 --> 00:13:43,758
what happened. And so I think it's an

344
00:13:43,758 --> 00:13:46,414
undoing and an unraveling of a real

345
00:13:46,414 --> 00:13:48,386
network of relationships in your life. And

346
00:13:48,386 --> 00:13:51,346
when you drop a truth bomb like this, you

347
00:13:51,346 --> 00:13:53,606
don't know how far that unraveling is

348
00:13:53,606 --> 00:13:55,586
going to go. So when I say that the

349
00:13:55,586 --> 00:13:57,026
reasons for not speaking out can

350
00:13:57,026 --> 00:13:59,506
frequently be complicated in myriad,

351
00:13:59,506 --> 00:14:02,258
there's sort of no end to that unraveling.

352
00:14:02,258 --> 00:14:05,238
What I know is that a story like this,

353
00:14:05,238 --> 00:14:06,954
it's like a genie coming out of a bottle.

354
00:14:06,954 --> 00:14:08,986
Once you uncork the bottle, you can't

355
00:14:08,986 --> 00:14:11,114
really get the genie back in. And so that

356
00:14:11,114 --> 00:14:13,358
is a lot of what made me think for two

357
00:14:13,358 --> 00:14:15,950
years before I really went public. And I

358
00:14:15,950 --> 00:14:18,302
think you're right to draw a distinction

359
00:14:18,302 --> 00:14:21,214
between the private trauma of telling your

360
00:14:21,214 --> 00:14:22,894
close network of friends and family and

361
00:14:22,894 --> 00:14:24,910
the public trauma of talking about

362
00:14:24,910 --> 00:14:27,134
something extremely triggering on a very

363
00:14:27,134 --> 00:14:29,266
wide platform. For example, the first time

364
00:14:29,266 --> 00:14:30,946
that I spoke about this story, it was in

365
00:14:30,946 --> 00:14:33,006
front of 4 million viewers live on

366
00:14:33,006 --> 00:14:35,186
breakfast television at the NBC Today

367
00:14:35,186 --> 00:14:37,918
show. And that is a form of trauma also,

368
00:14:37,918 --> 00:14:40,390
to take something that's so private and so

369
00:14:40,390 --> 00:14:42,182
difficult and to speak about it in a

370
00:14:42,182 --> 00:14:44,358
public platform. But it is a very

371
00:14:44,358 --> 00:14:47,394
different trauma from having to tell your

372
00:14:47,394 --> 00:14:50,646
parents, who experience perhaps their

373
00:14:50,646 --> 00:14:52,634
disbelief, perhaps their hurt, perhaps

374
00:14:52,634 --> 00:14:56,394
their anger, I don't think you quite know

375
00:14:56,394 --> 00:14:58,474
what reaction is going to come out. But I

376
00:14:58,474 --> 00:15:01,146
think that when you are speaking to people

377
00:15:01,146 --> 00:15:03,766
that you care about and you want them to

378
00:15:03,766 --> 00:15:06,366
be well and to have a good relationship

379
00:15:06,366 --> 00:15:08,922
with you, I think it's a different kind of

380
00:15:08,922 --> 00:15:11,166
trauma from going public. I wouldn't say

381
00:15:11,166 --> 00:15:12,986
that one is worse than the other. I think

382
00:15:12,986 --> 00:15:15,694
they're both really difficult. But I know

383
00:15:15,694 --> 00:15:17,486
that with these types of podcasts, when we

384
00:15:17,486 --> 00:15:18,578
talk about this kind of subject, there are

385
00:15:18,578 --> 00:15:20,434
a lot of people listening who haven't

386
00:15:20,434 --> 00:15:21,666
talked to their parents, who haven't

387
00:15:21,666 --> 00:15:23,346
talked to their siblings, who haven't

388
00:15:23,346 --> 00:15:25,006
talked to their colleagues at work, who

389
00:15:25,006 --> 00:15:26,658
haven't talked to their church minister or

390
00:15:26,658 --> 00:15:29,126
anyone in their life that they trust. And

391
00:15:29,126 --> 00:15:32,326
I think, therefore, that the message that

392
00:15:32,326 --> 00:15:35,126
it is difficult but it can be done and it

393
00:15:35,126 --> 00:15:37,286
can be overcome was something that was

394
00:15:37,286 --> 00:15:39,274
really important to me during the two

395
00:15:39,274 --> 00:15:41,162
years when I was thinking about speaking

396
00:15:41,162 --> 00:15:45,834
out and coming up with the resolution to

397
00:15:45,834 --> 00:15:51,994
do so. Yeah, everybody's story is so

398
00:15:51,994 --> 00:15:56,442
unique. And so even with all of the Harvey

399
00:15:56,442 --> 00:15:58,334
Weinstein survivor victim survivors.

400
00:15:58,334 --> 00:15:59,934
Right. Everybody has such a unique part of

401
00:15:59,934 --> 00:16:02,414
it, and your particular story is unique to

402
00:16:02,414 --> 00:16:05,106
you and how it came out and having the NDA

403
00:16:05,106 --> 00:16:07,618
and all of those things and having such a

404
00:16:07,618 --> 00:16:10,194
public figure with so much influence is

405
00:16:10,194 --> 00:16:12,562
also a whole other ballgame for people.

406
00:16:12,562 --> 00:16:15,826
And so the impacts on our personal lives

407
00:16:15,826 --> 00:16:17,910
and our professional lives are

408
00:16:17,910 --> 00:16:20,534
significant. As you look back on it, on

409
00:16:20,534 --> 00:16:22,854
this end of history, looking back on the

410
00:16:22,854 --> 00:16:26,614
last few years and how it's all know, how

411
00:16:26,614 --> 00:16:28,262
has the coming forward and sharing your

412
00:16:28,262 --> 00:16:30,570
story really impacted you personally and

413
00:16:30,570 --> 00:16:34,266
professionally? Well, I often think back

414
00:16:34,266 --> 00:16:36,406
to my friend and neighbor, Dr. Christine

415
00:16:36,406 --> 00:16:37,946
Blasey Ford. I think there's not a woman

416
00:16:37,946 --> 00:16:39,958
in America that has not heard of Dr.

417
00:16:39,958 --> 00:16:42,214
Ford's story and her courage in going to

418
00:16:42,214 --> 00:16:44,130
Congress and speaking up against Brett

419
00:16:44,130 --> 00:16:45,998
Kavanaugh. But the reason why, in answer

420
00:16:45,998 --> 00:16:48,526
to your question, I think about her is she

421
00:16:48,526 --> 00:16:51,754
was alone in what she did. I think know, I

422
00:16:51,754 --> 00:16:53,786
hesitate to use the word privilege with

423
00:16:53,786 --> 00:16:55,306
Weinstein survivors because obviously no

424
00:16:55,306 --> 00:16:56,866
woman in the world should ever have to be

425
00:16:56,866 --> 00:16:59,186
a sexual assault survivor. And so I think

426
00:16:59,186 --> 00:17:01,666
it hurts me to use that word in response

427
00:17:01,666 --> 00:17:04,514
to them. But there was a benefit that we

428
00:17:04,514 --> 00:17:06,562
had that she didn't have, which is that a

429
00:17:06,562 --> 00:17:08,680
number of women came forward in this

430
00:17:08,680 --> 00:17:11,430
story. Now, that also speaks to another

431
00:17:11,430 --> 00:17:13,654
social problem, which is the question of

432
00:17:13,654 --> 00:17:16,678
why does it take almost 100 women to speak

433
00:17:16,678 --> 00:17:19,446
a certain truth against one man before

434
00:17:19,446 --> 00:17:22,186
they can be believed. This is the idea

435
00:17:22,186 --> 00:17:24,794
that women's stories are not centered and

436
00:17:24,794 --> 00:17:26,986
not believed and not credible in the way

437
00:17:26,986 --> 00:17:29,126
that men's stories are. If you look at the

438
00:17:29,126 --> 00:17:31,082
legal system and you look at public policy

439
00:17:31,082 --> 00:17:34,026
around sexual assault, clearly the burden

440
00:17:34,026 --> 00:17:36,686
falls upon the survivor victim to prove

441
00:17:36,686 --> 00:17:38,654
that there was intent, to prove that there

442
00:17:38,654 --> 00:17:40,382
was penetration to prove that there was an

443
00:17:40,382 --> 00:17:42,586
actual assault, whereas often the

444
00:17:42,586 --> 00:17:44,458
perpetrator is innocent until proven

445
00:17:44,458 --> 00:17:46,626
guilty. So I think that is a problem both

446
00:17:46,626 --> 00:17:48,946
in all of it, in our culture, in our law,

447
00:17:48,946 --> 00:17:51,090
in our society, in our public policy

448
00:17:51,090 --> 00:17:56,882
around sexual assault. But I think that

449
00:17:56,882 --> 00:17:59,126
the fact that other women were able to

450
00:17:59,126 --> 00:18:02,370
speak out at the same time did give us a

451
00:18:02,370 --> 00:18:03,878
credibility and an encourage that it would

452
00:18:03,878 --> 00:18:06,262
have been really hard in situations where

453
00:18:06,262 --> 00:18:11,094
women are frequently the only one. I have

454
00:18:11,094 --> 00:18:13,478
drawn a lot of strength from my fellow

455
00:18:13,478 --> 00:18:15,962
survivors. Not only did we speak out

456
00:18:15,962 --> 00:18:18,006
together, and that's how the too movement

457
00:18:18,006 --> 00:18:21,374
evolved. It's a story of courage and joy

458
00:18:21,374 --> 00:18:24,670
in that many women united to speak

459
00:18:24,670 --> 00:18:26,702
together, not just the survivors, but

460
00:18:26,702 --> 00:18:28,222
obviously the journalists that broke our

461
00:18:28,222 --> 00:18:30,960
story. Jody Canto and Megan Tui were also

462
00:18:30,960 --> 00:18:35,946
women. Their editor was also a woman. The

463
00:18:35,946 --> 00:18:37,774
folks at Universal Studios that made the

464
00:18:37,774 --> 00:18:39,998
movie, she said it was directed by woman,

465
00:18:39,998 --> 00:18:42,194
written by woman, produced by woman. So

466
00:18:42,194 --> 00:18:43,998
many different aspects of the metoo

467
00:18:43,998 --> 00:18:46,046
movement. It's a story of women coming

468
00:18:46,046 --> 00:18:48,246
together, and that is a story of strength.

469
00:18:48,246 --> 00:18:51,330
It is a story also of indictment against

470
00:18:51,330 --> 00:18:53,542
society that it takes this many women

471
00:18:53,542 --> 00:18:56,310
coming together for a story to be

472
00:18:56,310 --> 00:19:02,694
believed. Yes, this is a big soapbox of

473
00:19:02,694 --> 00:19:05,882
mine, too. It's not the same standards,

474
00:19:05,882 --> 00:19:08,038
right. For women. It's not the same

475
00:19:08,038 --> 00:19:11,562
standards for somebody who's in power and

476
00:19:11,562 --> 00:19:13,934
somebody who is a subordinate. The playing

477
00:19:13,934 --> 00:19:16,974
field is certainly not level. And so it's

478
00:19:16,974 --> 00:19:18,954
just something to be mindful of. The power

479
00:19:18,954 --> 00:19:20,798
dynamics, the social hierarchies involved

480
00:19:20,798 --> 00:19:22,446
in these situations, and then generally

481
00:19:22,446 --> 00:19:25,786
how we view sexual assault as well, and

482
00:19:25,786 --> 00:19:27,554
sexual harassment. Some of the stories we

483
00:19:27,554 --> 00:19:29,394
tell ourselves, which are always a part of

484
00:19:29,394 --> 00:19:31,630
what people are coming into with their

485
00:19:31,630 --> 00:19:34,866
filters. Right. I'd love to ask you this.

486
00:19:34,866 --> 00:19:36,854
What are some ways you feel the hashtag me

487
00:19:36,854 --> 00:19:39,254
too movement has changed the conversation

488
00:19:39,254 --> 00:19:41,238
around sexual harassment and assault in

489
00:19:41,238 --> 00:19:45,862
the workplace. Well, I wrote a long time

490
00:19:45,862 --> 00:19:47,430
ago when I first went public with my

491
00:19:47,430 --> 00:19:49,174
story, I wrote about the idea that there

492
00:19:49,174 --> 00:19:51,318
were four power dynamics. And I think one

493
00:19:51,318 --> 00:19:53,834
of the things that me, too, has done from

494
00:19:53,834 --> 00:19:55,978
those early days is sort of lift the lid

495
00:19:55,978 --> 00:19:58,230
on the idea that there are these power

496
00:19:58,230 --> 00:20:00,330
dynamics. At that time, I had written

497
00:20:00,330 --> 00:20:01,994
about being asian, going up against

498
00:20:01,994 --> 00:20:04,026
somebody who's white, being a woman, and

499
00:20:04,026 --> 00:20:05,982
going up against someone who's a man,

500
00:20:05,982 --> 00:20:08,026
being a person of no consequence. I was a

501
00:20:08,026 --> 00:20:10,206
mere assistant in a company where I was

502
00:20:10,206 --> 00:20:12,366
going up against a CEO, but not just a CEO

503
00:20:12,366 --> 00:20:15,006
of any company. A CEO who is world famous

504
00:20:15,006 --> 00:20:17,246
and has a lot of power and is friends with

505
00:20:17,246 --> 00:20:20,034
presidents and newspaper editors and many

506
00:20:20,034 --> 00:20:22,354
men of influence in various spheres. And

507
00:20:22,354 --> 00:20:24,674
then the last dynamic that I talked about

508
00:20:24,674 --> 00:20:26,466
is really going up against an opponent who

509
00:20:26,466 --> 00:20:28,354
has unlimited amounts of money and, in

510
00:20:28,354 --> 00:20:30,326
fact, had to pay off our lawyers because

511
00:20:30,326 --> 00:20:32,278
we were not able to pay them ourselves. So

512
00:20:32,278 --> 00:20:34,470
I think, although the money dynamic is not

513
00:20:34,470 --> 00:20:37,334
something, it frequently ties into the

514
00:20:37,334 --> 00:20:39,238
power dynamic in the sense of status, and

515
00:20:39,238 --> 00:20:40,994
I think it is something that we need to

516
00:20:40,994 --> 00:20:42,906
explicitly call out as well. So, to go

517
00:20:42,906 --> 00:20:44,742
back to your question, I think the metoo

518
00:20:44,742 --> 00:20:46,534
movement did, right from the beginning,

519
00:20:46,534 --> 00:20:48,870
lift the lid on this idea of power

520
00:20:48,870 --> 00:20:51,174
dynamics that we all knew about, but I

521
00:20:51,174 --> 00:20:54,586
think wasn't really teased out and

522
00:20:54,586 --> 00:20:57,642
explicitly spoken about in the common

523
00:20:57,642 --> 00:20:59,646
parlance, in societal structure in the way

524
00:20:59,646 --> 00:21:02,138
that it is now. So it has given us an

525
00:21:02,138 --> 00:21:04,946
opening to talk about these inequalities,

526
00:21:04,946 --> 00:21:07,790
to talk about this oppression, to have it

527
00:21:07,790 --> 00:21:11,074
accepted rather than denied. However, you

528
00:21:11,074 --> 00:21:13,198
knew there was a however in there, right?

529
00:21:13,198 --> 00:21:17,106
That's only the first step. I acknowledge

530
00:21:17,106 --> 00:21:18,758
the work that the movement has done to

531
00:21:18,758 --> 00:21:21,042
kind of lift the lid and bring these

532
00:21:21,042 --> 00:21:22,918
conversations into public discourse, and I

533
00:21:22,918 --> 00:21:25,110
think it's done a tremendous thing.

534
00:21:25,110 --> 00:21:27,382
However, I think the opportunity that we

535
00:21:27,382 --> 00:21:29,522
now have, now that these conversations are

536
00:21:29,522 --> 00:21:31,014
acknowledged, that this inequality is

537
00:21:31,014 --> 00:21:33,194
there, that we know about it, that we talk

538
00:21:33,194 --> 00:21:35,242
about it, I think this is where the hard

539
00:21:35,242 --> 00:21:37,594
work starts. Are we really going to be

540
00:21:37,594 --> 00:21:40,742
able to change law and policy and

541
00:21:40,742 --> 00:21:43,386
workplace practices in a way that benefits

542
00:21:43,386 --> 00:21:45,498
the oppressed, that creates a more level

543
00:21:45,498 --> 00:21:47,854
playing field, that brings true equity

544
00:21:47,854 --> 00:21:50,462
into the system? I honestly don't know the

545
00:21:50,462 --> 00:21:52,762
answer to that. I do a lot of work around

546
00:21:52,762 --> 00:21:54,954
activism and advocacy. I go into law

547
00:21:54,954 --> 00:21:56,926
courts, I go into state houses, and so on

548
00:21:56,926 --> 00:21:59,186
and so forth. But far from thinking that

549
00:21:59,186 --> 00:22:00,882
the meToo movement was a thing that

550
00:22:00,882 --> 00:22:03,074
started in 2017, a social movement, and

551
00:22:03,074 --> 00:22:05,374
now it's over because Harvey's in jail and

552
00:22:05,374 --> 00:22:07,454
we've done the work, I think the meToo

553
00:22:07,454 --> 00:22:08,834
movement really was the beginning. It

554
00:22:08,834 --> 00:22:11,158
gives us an opportunity to do the real

555
00:22:11,158 --> 00:22:13,206
work, but it really was only the opening

556
00:22:13,206 --> 00:22:15,526
of the door. We still have to step through

557
00:22:15,526 --> 00:22:18,570
the door into the room and do that really

558
00:22:18,570 --> 00:22:22,214
hard work as a society of looking at our

559
00:22:22,214 --> 00:22:24,550
systems, understanding systematic

560
00:22:24,550 --> 00:22:27,242
oppression, whether that's race, misogyny

561
00:22:27,242 --> 00:22:29,306
on a gender spectrum, or some other form

562
00:22:29,306 --> 00:22:31,386
of oppression, wealth, that's another one

563
00:22:31,386 --> 00:22:34,134
as well. And look at how are we going to

564
00:22:34,134 --> 00:22:36,206
dismantle these systems of oppression so

565
00:22:36,206 --> 00:22:38,846
that we can have a more equal world for

566
00:22:38,846 --> 00:22:40,766
those of us of color, for those of us who

567
00:22:40,766 --> 00:22:43,074
are women, for those of us who do not have

568
00:22:43,074 --> 00:22:46,078
access to finance or a platform or

569
00:22:46,078 --> 00:22:48,434
language or legal right of abode or any

570
00:22:48,434 --> 00:22:55,020
number of forms of oppression. So true. So

571
00:22:55,020 --> 00:22:58,766
good. I really just learned so much from

572
00:22:58,766 --> 00:23:00,382
your perspective when I hear you talk

573
00:23:00,382 --> 00:23:02,558
about it, because it brings up all kinds

574
00:23:02,558 --> 00:23:05,934
of things. It brings up thoughts around.

575
00:23:05,934 --> 00:23:08,634
For those who've watched the Jeffrey

576
00:23:08,634 --> 00:23:12,722
Epstein, for example, a lot of these men

577
00:23:12,722 --> 00:23:15,874
will find ways to create a system. In his

578
00:23:15,874 --> 00:23:17,794
case, it was this pyramid scheme, which

579
00:23:17,794 --> 00:23:20,562
was so bizarre to think of. That's more of

580
00:23:20,562 --> 00:23:23,734
a business principle. But he built that in

581
00:23:23,734 --> 00:23:26,694
his web of abuse and a sexual assault of

582
00:23:26,694 --> 00:23:29,090
young girls who were from across the

583
00:23:29,090 --> 00:23:32,918
bridge, a community where they didn't have

584
00:23:32,918 --> 00:23:35,382
the same resources. And so he's this very

585
00:23:35,382 --> 00:23:37,494
wealthy man who lives in a mansion, knows

586
00:23:37,494 --> 00:23:40,938
presidents, knows people with a lot of

587
00:23:40,938 --> 00:23:43,974
power. And so just that element of the

588
00:23:43,974 --> 00:23:46,246
wealth, the money, the influence, as

589
00:23:46,246 --> 00:23:50,138
opposed to a little girl who is from this

590
00:23:50,138 --> 00:23:52,238
particular high school, that is not one of

591
00:23:52,238 --> 00:23:53,486
the better ones. And so when you think

592
00:23:53,486 --> 00:23:55,450
about all of those dynamics, they are

593
00:23:55,450 --> 00:23:57,934
significant. And I hope that what you're

594
00:23:57,934 --> 00:23:59,326
doing, the work that so many are doing, is

595
00:23:59,326 --> 00:24:01,166
to help really highlight those, because I

596
00:24:01,166 --> 00:24:02,786
think they're really key parts of it, that

597
00:24:02,786 --> 00:24:04,562
if we miss those, we've missed something

598
00:24:04,562 --> 00:24:07,634
really huge, because one woman's voice

599
00:24:07,634 --> 00:24:09,426
should matter, one little girl's voice

600
00:24:09,426 --> 00:24:11,042
should matter, even if it's up against a

601
00:24:11,042 --> 00:24:13,762
man who knows presidents and has a lot of

602
00:24:13,762 --> 00:24:15,718
influence. So I guess my question for you

603
00:24:15,718 --> 00:24:19,586
now is we see a lot of the narratives

604
00:24:19,586 --> 00:24:21,714
centering the abuser. So there's the

605
00:24:21,714 --> 00:24:25,062
documentary about Jeffrey Epstein. Right?

606
00:24:25,062 --> 00:24:27,846
And then know people know about Harvey

607
00:24:27,846 --> 00:24:29,498
Weinstein. And it's like we put even all

608
00:24:29,498 --> 00:24:31,702
the victim survivors sometimes in this

609
00:24:31,702 --> 00:24:34,214
monolith. Right. But how can we be more

610
00:24:34,214 --> 00:24:37,290
survivor centered as we approach this?

611
00:24:37,290 --> 00:24:39,014
Yeah, I think it's a really critical

612
00:24:39,014 --> 00:24:40,506
question, and I want to start by

613
00:24:40,506 --> 00:24:42,922
addressing the points you made about media

614
00:24:42,922 --> 00:24:44,526
representation. You are absolutely right

615
00:24:44,526 --> 00:24:46,378
that the documentaries are always

616
00:24:46,378 --> 00:24:48,538
surviving Harvey Weinstein or surviving R.

617
00:24:48,538 --> 00:24:51,122
Kelly or the Harvey Weinstein scandal.

618
00:24:51,122 --> 00:24:53,758
Actually, the law case, the media case,

619
00:24:53,758 --> 00:24:55,986
it's actually named after the perpetrator.

620
00:24:55,986 --> 00:24:58,638
And you rarely have heard of Romina Chu or

621
00:24:58,638 --> 00:25:01,294
Zelda Perkins or how many Epstein

622
00:25:01,294 --> 00:25:02,754
survivors can you actually rattle off by

623
00:25:02,754 --> 00:25:04,558
name? How many R. Kelly survivors can you

624
00:25:04,558 --> 00:25:06,678
rattle off by name? It is true that the

625
00:25:06,678 --> 00:25:08,374
media platforms the perpetrator, and

626
00:25:08,374 --> 00:25:09,926
actually, when you look at that and you

627
00:25:09,926 --> 00:25:11,526
begin to pick it apart, it is actually

628
00:25:11,526 --> 00:25:13,974
kind of shocking. I think it springs from

629
00:25:13,974 --> 00:25:16,546
the idea that often the perpetrator is a

630
00:25:16,546 --> 00:25:19,478
person in power. He's a person he, because

631
00:25:19,478 --> 00:25:21,526
it's usually a he, but he's a person who

632
00:25:21,526 --> 00:25:22,886
controls the narrative that's always

633
00:25:22,886 --> 00:25:25,978
driven the narrative, that gets to tell

634
00:25:25,978 --> 00:25:27,882
the lawyers and the police his side of the

635
00:25:27,882 --> 00:25:29,418
story, gets to tell the media his side of

636
00:25:29,418 --> 00:25:31,134
the story. And I think it goes a long way

637
00:25:31,134 --> 00:25:33,806
to explaining why. A, it's very difficult

638
00:25:33,806 --> 00:25:35,534
for sexual assault survivors to speak

639
00:25:35,534 --> 00:25:38,090
their story at all, either publicly or

640
00:25:38,090 --> 00:25:40,634
privately. B, even if they have the

641
00:25:40,634 --> 00:25:41,986
courage to speak their story, are they

642
00:25:41,986 --> 00:25:44,402
going to be believed? Usually that doesn't

643
00:25:44,402 --> 00:25:47,262
happen. And even if you have surmounted

644
00:25:47,262 --> 00:25:50,274
barriers a and b, c, are you going to be

645
00:25:50,274 --> 00:25:53,222
able to get any kind of legal respite,

646
00:25:53,222 --> 00:25:55,954
public policy respite, financial respite?

647
00:25:55,954 --> 00:25:58,326
Highly unlikely. So when you think about

648
00:25:58,326 --> 00:26:00,818
the number of barriers in front of a

649
00:26:00,818 --> 00:26:03,414
survivor, in terms of what is there really

650
00:26:03,414 --> 00:26:06,606
to gain other than a situation of

651
00:26:06,606 --> 00:26:08,646
ridicule, you're more likely to be

652
00:26:08,646 --> 00:26:10,198
blacklisted from your career. You're more

653
00:26:10,198 --> 00:26:12,138
likely to be retaliated against. You're

654
00:26:12,138 --> 00:26:15,066
going to be derided as a whistleblower, as

655
00:26:15,066 --> 00:26:17,358
a person of loose morals who's after

656
00:26:17,358 --> 00:26:19,214
money. There are all kinds of ways in

657
00:26:19,214 --> 00:26:22,218
which society continues to oppress and

658
00:26:22,218 --> 00:26:25,242
suppress the survivor's story that go

659
00:26:25,242 --> 00:26:27,166
beyond actually the crimes committed by

660
00:26:27,166 --> 00:26:29,726
the perpetrator. So we're all in some way

661
00:26:29,726 --> 00:26:32,450
complicit. There's a system in society

662
00:26:32,450 --> 00:26:35,426
that suppresses a survivor's voice that is

663
00:26:35,426 --> 00:26:38,130
not survivor centric, that is not trauma

664
00:26:38,130 --> 00:26:40,514
informed. So having made those remarks

665
00:26:40,514 --> 00:26:43,638
about media and the sort of evils of how

666
00:26:43,638 --> 00:26:45,862
media centers a story, let me actually

667
00:26:45,862 --> 00:26:48,086
address your question, which was, how can

668
00:26:48,086 --> 00:26:50,870
we make society and media more survivor

669
00:26:50,870 --> 00:26:55,666
centric? I think that the meToo movement

670
00:26:55,666 --> 00:26:59,674
has made tentative steps in that direction

671
00:26:59,674 --> 00:27:01,926
with she said the book and she said the

672
00:27:01,926 --> 00:27:04,410
movie. It is true that our stories at

673
00:27:04,410 --> 00:27:06,666
least featured. It is true that I'm right

674
00:27:06,666 --> 00:27:08,746
here doing this podcast. It is true that I

675
00:27:08,746 --> 00:27:10,942
got to write an op ed in the New York

676
00:27:10,942 --> 00:27:14,266
Times. So I cannot say that the meeting

677
00:27:14,266 --> 00:27:16,014
didn't move in the right direction in

678
00:27:16,014 --> 00:27:17,674
terms of being survivor centric and

679
00:27:17,674 --> 00:27:20,126
hearing survivor stories. However, I think

680
00:27:20,126 --> 00:27:22,814
it is still staggering that it is much

681
00:27:22,814 --> 00:27:24,738
easier to get a movie greenlit if it has

682
00:27:24,738 --> 00:27:26,402
the name of the perpetrator attached to it

683
00:27:26,402 --> 00:27:29,314
rather than the name of the survivor. To

684
00:27:29,314 --> 00:27:32,750
be honest, this is very much a personal

685
00:27:32,750 --> 00:27:34,854
struggle for me as I've been working for

686
00:27:34,854 --> 00:27:37,014
four years to publish a memoir about my

687
00:27:37,014 --> 00:27:40,242
own experiences. I had written a

688
00:27:40,242 --> 00:27:41,686
screenplay about my experiences of working

689
00:27:41,686 --> 00:27:43,446
for Harvey and on Shakespeare and love,

690
00:27:43,446 --> 00:27:45,062
and it's really difficult to get that

691
00:27:45,062 --> 00:27:48,586
green lit. So I think for me, speaking

692
00:27:48,586 --> 00:27:50,714
from a very personal point of view, not

693
00:27:50,714 --> 00:27:53,110
only do I find my perpetrator very

694
00:27:53,110 --> 00:27:54,854
centered, but I actually also find the

695
00:27:54,854 --> 00:27:56,742
journalists who broke our story very

696
00:27:56,742 --> 00:27:59,286
centered above survivors. So it often

697
00:27:59,286 --> 00:28:00,798
feels to me as though the survivor voice

698
00:28:00,798 --> 00:28:03,246
and the survivor story is sort of last in

699
00:28:03,246 --> 00:28:05,886
a long line of people who might get

700
00:28:05,886 --> 00:28:08,846
platform or visibility or in any way get

701
00:28:08,846 --> 00:28:10,958
to further their careers as a result of

702
00:28:10,958 --> 00:28:12,798
the meToo movement. I think the reasons

703
00:28:12,798 --> 00:28:14,810
for this are actually very complicated.

704
00:28:14,810 --> 00:28:16,146
For instance, when I think about the fact

705
00:28:16,146 --> 00:28:18,002
that she said centered the journalist

706
00:28:18,002 --> 00:28:19,538
story, both book and the movie were from

707
00:28:19,538 --> 00:28:20,706
the journalist's point of view, not from

708
00:28:20,706 --> 00:28:22,626
the survivor's point of view. I actually

709
00:28:22,626 --> 00:28:24,726
have a whole theory around this. I think

710
00:28:24,726 --> 00:28:27,846
it is much easier for the average woman to

711
00:28:27,846 --> 00:28:30,018
want to think of themselves as a Jodie

712
00:28:30,018 --> 00:28:32,066
cantor and a Megan tui. I mean, who

713
00:28:32,066 --> 00:28:34,002
wouldn't? They're wonderful women. They're

714
00:28:34,002 --> 00:28:36,054
incredibly bright. I have really enjoyed

715
00:28:36,054 --> 00:28:38,902
working with them. They are heroes of our

716
00:28:38,902 --> 00:28:40,426
generation. They've won a Pulitzer prize.

717
00:28:40,426 --> 00:28:42,570
They are publicly fetted for what they

718
00:28:42,570 --> 00:28:44,726
did. Their book was a roaring success. The

719
00:28:44,726 --> 00:28:46,842
movie was a roaring success. So I think

720
00:28:46,842 --> 00:28:48,666
that women who are in the audience

721
00:28:48,666 --> 00:28:50,778
watching, they want to identify with Jodie

722
00:28:50,778 --> 00:28:53,722
and Meghan. But I think it gets really

723
00:28:53,722 --> 00:28:55,566
complicated when you ask them, do you want

724
00:28:55,566 --> 00:28:58,286
to identify with Laura Madden, Rowena Chu

725
00:28:58,286 --> 00:29:00,686
and Zelda Perkins, the three victims that

726
00:29:00,686 --> 00:29:03,074
were depicted? And she said, I think there

727
00:29:03,074 --> 00:29:05,218
is rarely a woman, and interestingly, even

728
00:29:05,218 --> 00:29:07,326
a woman who themselves have experienced

729
00:29:07,326 --> 00:29:09,474
sexual assaults, who is willing to come

730
00:29:09,474 --> 00:29:11,534
out publicly and say, yes, I'm a sexual

731
00:29:11,534 --> 00:29:13,698
assault survivor, I want to stand with the

732
00:29:13,698 --> 00:29:15,718
Weinstein survivors. Again, I think a lot

733
00:29:15,718 --> 00:29:20,034
of that is due to society and society's

734
00:29:20,034 --> 00:29:21,574
treatment of sexual assault survivors, but

735
00:29:21,574 --> 00:29:24,178
also their depiction of them, the way that

736
00:29:24,178 --> 00:29:25,766
sexual assault survivors are depicted in

737
00:29:25,766 --> 00:29:28,426
the media, in the press, in stories, the

738
00:29:28,426 --> 00:29:30,426
way that they are spoken of, the way that

739
00:29:30,426 --> 00:29:33,462
they are frequently diminished, negated,

740
00:29:33,462 --> 00:29:35,306
disbelieved, and even a movie like she

741
00:29:35,306 --> 00:29:37,658
said, which is in itself survivor centric,

742
00:29:37,658 --> 00:29:39,870
or at least it calls itself survivor

743
00:29:39,870 --> 00:29:42,654
centric, actually. Look at the characters.

744
00:29:42,654 --> 00:29:44,714
The survivors featured in, she said, are

745
00:29:44,714 --> 00:29:46,634
highly two dimensional. There's no

746
00:29:46,634 --> 00:29:47,886
background to them. We don't understand

747
00:29:47,886 --> 00:29:49,614
their background. We don't understand

748
00:29:49,614 --> 00:29:51,706
their story. We don't understand their

749
00:29:51,706 --> 00:29:53,646
motivations. We don't get to see them with

750
00:29:53,646 --> 00:29:55,858
husbands and kids and babies and dogs in

751
00:29:55,858 --> 00:29:58,194
the park. But the journalists are very

752
00:29:58,194 --> 00:30:00,946
much centered. So this is not a criticism

753
00:30:00,946 --> 00:30:03,254
of, she said, the movie. It is to say, I

754
00:30:03,254 --> 00:30:06,038
think she said, part way, open the door in

755
00:30:06,038 --> 00:30:08,546
the sense that it features survivors

756
00:30:08,546 --> 00:30:11,122
voices. And we're not shadowy, anonymous,

757
00:30:11,122 --> 00:30:13,926
unnamed people. But I think there's still

758
00:30:13,926 --> 00:30:17,302
a long way for media, creativity and

759
00:30:17,302 --> 00:30:20,646
society to go before it really sees sexual

760
00:30:20,646 --> 00:30:22,954
assault survivors as three dimensional

761
00:30:22,954 --> 00:30:25,194
people. And I think the reason for that is

762
00:30:25,194 --> 00:30:27,466
we bring discomfort. It is really hard to

763
00:30:27,466 --> 00:30:29,354
have these conversations. It is really

764
00:30:29,354 --> 00:30:31,418
hard for me to be invited to corporate

765
00:30:31,418 --> 00:30:33,326
workplaces, to churches, to school, and

766
00:30:33,326 --> 00:30:35,326
for me to stand up and tell my story. I am

767
00:30:35,326 --> 00:30:38,334
a figure of discomfort. I bring truths

768
00:30:38,334 --> 00:30:40,302
that people don't really want to listen

769
00:30:40,302 --> 00:30:43,426
to. I think that that isn't really hard.

770
00:30:43,426 --> 00:30:46,670
And I think the work of that is about

771
00:30:46,670 --> 00:30:48,354
generational change. I don't think that I

772
00:30:48,354 --> 00:30:50,446
will see the change I want to see in my

773
00:30:50,446 --> 00:30:52,594
lifetime, but I make these changes so that

774
00:30:52,594 --> 00:30:54,990
my children, I'm tempted to say daughters

775
00:30:54,990 --> 00:30:56,454
and granddaughters, but let's not make

776
00:30:56,454 --> 00:30:59,170
this about gender. That my children and my

777
00:30:59,170 --> 00:31:00,966
grandchildren will have a better world,

778
00:31:00,966 --> 00:31:03,046
one that is more trauma informed, one that

779
00:31:03,046 --> 00:31:05,206
is more survivor centric, one that is

780
00:31:05,206 --> 00:31:08,326
frankly more emotionally aware of these

781
00:31:08,326 --> 00:31:11,046
sorts of stories and a world where

782
00:31:11,046 --> 00:31:18,694
survivors no longer have to hide. I want

783
00:31:18,694 --> 00:31:20,834
that world, and I'm so glad that you're

784
00:31:20,834 --> 00:31:23,654
fighting so hard for it. And I see your

785
00:31:23,654 --> 00:31:25,206
efforts. And I know it's got to be

786
00:31:25,206 --> 00:31:28,538
exhausting at times to have to keep sort

787
00:31:28,538 --> 00:31:30,646
of pushing up against a system that

788
00:31:30,646 --> 00:31:33,326
doesn't want to change. Because I think

789
00:31:33,326 --> 00:31:35,966
the system, it just naturally was made to

790
00:31:35,966 --> 00:31:39,582
center the abusers. And I see this. We

791
00:31:39,582 --> 00:31:44,626
both share a faith. When I see, for

792
00:31:44,626 --> 00:31:48,450
example, pastors who pray upon their

793
00:31:48,450 --> 00:31:51,362
congregations, and because we often see

794
00:31:51,362 --> 00:31:56,414
these patterns, we see people who tend

795
00:31:56,414 --> 00:31:59,430
toward these predatory nature will often

796
00:31:59,430 --> 00:32:02,582
find a job that makes them look like a

797
00:32:02,582 --> 00:32:04,546
good person. So a do gooder. Either

798
00:32:04,546 --> 00:32:07,750
they're producing movies that people love,

799
00:32:07,750 --> 00:32:09,606
or they're a pastor and they've got these

800
00:32:09,606 --> 00:32:12,646
good sermons that sound so great, or

801
00:32:12,646 --> 00:32:14,666
they're a teacher or a karate instructor

802
00:32:14,666 --> 00:32:16,954
or something that looks like they're

803
00:32:16,954 --> 00:32:19,706
giving people good things and it does make

804
00:32:19,706 --> 00:32:21,322
it hard to question them because of their

805
00:32:21,322 --> 00:32:22,966
power. And when you add the spiritual

806
00:32:22,966 --> 00:32:25,120
element to it, it has a whole other

807
00:32:25,120 --> 00:32:29,018
situation that happens. And so recently

808
00:32:29,018 --> 00:32:30,942
I've been tweeting quite a bit about this

809
00:32:30,942 --> 00:32:32,926
whole, what I call Preda pastor predators

810
00:32:32,926 --> 00:32:35,998
who are pastors. And it is resonating with

811
00:32:35,998 --> 00:32:37,634
a lot of people because unfortunately,

812
00:32:37,634 --> 00:32:41,806
there are systems like, for example, in a

813
00:32:41,806 --> 00:32:42,946
church where you don't say these things

814
00:32:42,946 --> 00:32:45,426
out loud. But I know that for the industry

815
00:32:45,426 --> 00:32:47,666
you were in, if you want to keep going in

816
00:32:47,666 --> 00:32:49,814
your career, you don't speak out against

817
00:32:49,814 --> 00:32:52,966
this man. He's so powerful, it's damaging

818
00:32:52,966 --> 00:32:55,666
for one's career. So if there's someone

819
00:32:55,666 --> 00:32:57,334
listening right now who's sort of toying

820
00:32:57,334 --> 00:32:59,798
with that whole notion of, do I say

821
00:32:59,798 --> 00:33:01,286
anything because I could lose my career?

822
00:33:01,286 --> 00:33:03,686
Do I say anything because I could lose my

823
00:33:03,686 --> 00:33:05,482
church? I'd love for you to talk to that

824
00:33:05,482 --> 00:33:07,770
person right now and maybe give them your

825
00:33:07,770 --> 00:33:10,006
perspective. Yeah, well, I think what

826
00:33:10,006 --> 00:33:12,290
you're alluding to is this idea of the

827
00:33:12,290 --> 00:33:14,622
pillar of society. I think there's a very

828
00:33:14,622 --> 00:33:17,214
common idea where, as you quite rightly

829
00:33:17,214 --> 00:33:20,734
said, a predator is often in a position of

830
00:33:20,734 --> 00:33:23,966
not just sort of monetary power or status

831
00:33:23,966 --> 00:33:26,142
in terms of a career, but also in terms of

832
00:33:26,142 --> 00:33:28,146
social power, social currency. So they

833
00:33:28,146 --> 00:33:29,666
might be a sports coach, or they might be

834
00:33:29,666 --> 00:33:31,854
a teacher, or they might be a religious

835
00:33:31,854 --> 00:33:34,334
leader. They are in some way embedded in

836
00:33:34,334 --> 00:33:37,486
society such that society cannot believe

837
00:33:37,486 --> 00:33:38,834
terrible things about them, as in, it's

838
00:33:38,834 --> 00:33:40,982
literally impossible for society to

839
00:33:40,982 --> 00:33:43,350
believe terrible things about this good

840
00:33:43,350 --> 00:33:45,442
person. So, for example, when the Russell

841
00:33:45,442 --> 00:33:48,306
brand story broke in the UK, and Elon

842
00:33:48,306 --> 00:33:50,338
Musk's defense of him is, oh, no, but I've

843
00:33:50,338 --> 00:33:51,706
hung out with him, I've had drinks with

844
00:33:51,706 --> 00:33:54,714
him, and he's a good guy. So this idea

845
00:33:54,714 --> 00:33:58,426
that this pillar, it's inconceivable that

846
00:33:58,426 --> 00:34:00,198
this person, like, I know this person.

847
00:34:00,198 --> 00:34:02,698
I've seen them coach basketball. I've seen

848
00:34:02,698 --> 00:34:04,878
them preach in the pulpit. I know them to

849
00:34:04,878 --> 00:34:06,750
be a good person. And so that's really

850
00:34:06,750 --> 00:34:08,334
difficult because it creates, as you say,

851
00:34:08,334 --> 00:34:11,466
this protective shield of credibility and

852
00:34:11,466 --> 00:34:13,486
belief that the victim survivor, who is

853
00:34:13,486 --> 00:34:15,018
not known in this way and does not have

854
00:34:15,018 --> 00:34:17,394
this social currency, frequently, isn't

855
00:34:17,394 --> 00:34:20,398
ever going to perpetrate. So I would say

856
00:34:20,398 --> 00:34:23,234
it's incredibly complicated, what I would

857
00:34:23,234 --> 00:34:25,634
say to those who are listening, who are

858
00:34:25,634 --> 00:34:27,538
trying to go up against someone who's a

859
00:34:27,538 --> 00:34:31,238
pillar of society. Again, I return to the

860
00:34:31,238 --> 00:34:33,266
point that I think the metoo movement has

861
00:34:33,266 --> 00:34:37,906
created the opportunity. But

862
00:34:37,906 --> 00:34:39,730
unfortunately, and I say this with the

863
00:34:39,730 --> 00:34:41,954
greatest of compassion and empathy,

864
00:34:41,954 --> 00:34:43,914
unfortunately, the work still needs to be

865
00:34:43,914 --> 00:34:45,926
done by the victim and the survivor

866
00:34:45,926 --> 00:34:48,006
frequently, which is awful, actually. I

867
00:34:48,006 --> 00:34:49,818
hate to say this. I hesitate to say it.

868
00:34:49,818 --> 00:34:53,126
You can hear the hesitation in my voice.

869
00:34:53,126 --> 00:34:55,934
I'm grieved to be in a world where women

870
00:34:55,934 --> 00:34:57,754
still bear that burden, where the

871
00:34:57,754 --> 00:34:59,726
oppressed still has to rise up and speak

872
00:34:59,726 --> 00:35:02,090
out against the oppressor, that there

873
00:35:02,090 --> 00:35:04,670
isn't systematic system that's better

874
00:35:04,670 --> 00:35:06,986
about supporting survivors before we even

875
00:35:06,986 --> 00:35:09,618
know who they are, and to give them a

876
00:35:09,618 --> 00:35:11,602
platform to speak and protection against

877
00:35:11,602 --> 00:35:13,986
that, and a world where they don't have to

878
00:35:13,986 --> 00:35:16,386
do the hard work. But unfortunately, I

879
00:35:16,386 --> 00:35:18,230
think it's still the case that we as

880
00:35:18,230 --> 00:35:20,806
women, we as survivors still have to do

881
00:35:20,806 --> 00:35:24,486
that work. However, I would say postmeto,

882
00:35:24,486 --> 00:35:27,382
I encourage you to do that. I think we're

883
00:35:27,382 --> 00:35:29,698
finally in an environment where you can be

884
00:35:29,698 --> 00:35:33,434
believed. I think if you are able to find

885
00:35:33,434 --> 00:35:37,194
other voices and other women, no predator

886
00:35:37,194 --> 00:35:39,354
has existed in isolation. I'm sorry to say

887
00:35:39,354 --> 00:35:41,622
this, too agrees me to say this, but

888
00:35:41,622 --> 00:35:44,314
likely your assault will not be in

889
00:35:44,314 --> 00:35:47,002
isolation. It is more than likely that any

890
00:35:47,002 --> 00:35:49,466
predator has a pattern of a predatory

891
00:35:49,466 --> 00:35:51,802
pattern, as in they have more than one

892
00:35:51,802 --> 00:35:54,286
survivor out there and also that the story

893
00:35:54,286 --> 00:35:56,506
is very similar. So if you have been

894
00:35:56,506 --> 00:35:59,122
assaulted by your sports coach, go talk to

895
00:35:59,122 --> 00:36:01,874
anyone he's ever coached, because chances

896
00:36:01,874 --> 00:36:04,002
are you will find other women willing to

897
00:36:04,002 --> 00:36:05,886
speak. And I wish it wasn't like this. I

898
00:36:05,886 --> 00:36:07,774
wish one woman could come forward and be

899
00:36:07,774 --> 00:36:09,506
believed. I wish a woman's voice was equal

900
00:36:09,506 --> 00:36:12,614
to a man's voice. In terms of that, there

901
00:36:12,614 --> 00:36:15,554
was a balance in terms of credibility. But

902
00:36:15,554 --> 00:36:18,038
knowing what we do about society and all

903
00:36:18,038 --> 00:36:19,878
that we've talked about credibility and

904
00:36:19,878 --> 00:36:22,794
the way that society works, my advice is

905
00:36:22,794 --> 00:36:26,506
to go and find allies who share your story

906
00:36:26,506 --> 00:36:29,386
if you possibly can. On the other hand, if

907
00:36:29,386 --> 00:36:31,194
you are Dr. Christine Blasey Ford and you

908
00:36:31,194 --> 00:36:34,494
are completely by yourself, know that when

909
00:36:34,494 --> 00:36:37,450
you do speak out, there will be people

910
00:36:37,450 --> 00:36:39,662
listening and watching who aren't in a

911
00:36:39,662 --> 00:36:42,622
place in their lives to go there yet, but

912
00:36:42,622 --> 00:36:45,402
that you have been an inspiration for

913
00:36:45,402 --> 00:36:47,178
hundreds, thousands, possibly tens of

914
00:36:47,178 --> 00:36:48,626
thousands of women that you'll never meet

915
00:36:48,626 --> 00:36:50,766
and never speak to, but you will have

916
00:36:50,766 --> 00:36:53,326
changed their lives. So if you are in that

917
00:36:53,326 --> 00:36:54,802
horrific position where you have to be the

918
00:36:54,802 --> 00:36:57,218
only person who speaks out, but you are in

919
00:36:57,218 --> 00:36:59,426
a position to be able to do that, know

920
00:36:59,426 --> 00:37:00,982
that you are helping other people, no

921
00:37:00,982 --> 00:37:02,886
matter what kind of blowback you get and

922
00:37:02,886 --> 00:37:04,566
the disbelief and all the rest of that

923
00:37:04,566 --> 00:37:06,966
stuff, the majority of people you help

924
00:37:06,966 --> 00:37:09,498
will be silent and you will never meet

925
00:37:09,498 --> 00:37:11,580
them. But you know that they are out

926
00:37:11,580 --> 00:37:18,426
there. Absolutely. I just know where I was

927
00:37:18,426 --> 00:37:21,126
when I watched what was going on with

928
00:37:21,126 --> 00:37:22,486
Christy and Blaisey Ford. I was in

929
00:37:22,486 --> 00:37:26,154
Singapore, and I remember just how I felt

930
00:37:26,154 --> 00:37:28,634
and how I resonated. I'm not a sexual

931
00:37:28,634 --> 00:37:31,422
assault survivor, but there was something

932
00:37:31,422 --> 00:37:33,774
about being a woman and her speaking that

933
00:37:33,774 --> 00:37:35,998
way that just made such a difference. And

934
00:37:35,998 --> 00:37:40,178
I've met women since then who have had

935
00:37:40,178 --> 00:37:42,574
experience what she experienced and that

936
00:37:42,574 --> 00:37:44,386
she'll never know the difference she made

937
00:37:44,386 --> 00:37:46,754
in people's lives by speaking out. I mean,

938
00:37:46,754 --> 00:37:49,234
the results didn't go the way we wanted

939
00:37:49,234 --> 00:37:52,258
because her abuser is now at the highest

940
00:37:52,258 --> 00:37:54,086
levels of our justice in our nation. But

941
00:37:54,086 --> 00:37:56,406
at the same time, what she did will never

942
00:37:56,406 --> 00:37:58,006
be able to be calculated because I know

943
00:37:58,006 --> 00:38:00,022
that it did resonate with a lot of people.

944
00:38:00,022 --> 00:38:01,878
So every voice really does matter in ways

945
00:38:01,878 --> 00:38:05,100
we'll never know. My last question for you

946
00:38:05,100 --> 00:38:07,786
before we close, and then I'll also have

947
00:38:07,786 --> 00:38:09,606
you on our patreon for our difference

948
00:38:09,606 --> 00:38:11,420
makers for another deeper question there,

949
00:38:11,420 --> 00:38:13,822
but what do you think people don't

950
00:38:13,822 --> 00:38:15,566
understand about survivors that you would

951
00:38:15,566 --> 00:38:21,934
love for them to understand? Wow, that's a

952
00:38:21,934 --> 00:38:25,762
really good one. Or maybe something people

953
00:38:25,762 --> 00:38:28,162
often miss or that you have to kind of

954
00:38:28,162 --> 00:38:31,314
correct or whatever. Yeah, I just think

955
00:38:31,314 --> 00:38:34,050
that there are so many myths about

956
00:38:34,050 --> 00:38:37,634
survivorship that still persist even among

957
00:38:37,634 --> 00:38:39,266
people who are very supportive of the

958
00:38:39,266 --> 00:38:41,266
meeting movement and see themselves as

959
00:38:41,266 --> 00:38:44,806
allies. So you sort of get the regular,

960
00:38:44,806 --> 00:38:46,934
and they're not necessarily critical, but

961
00:38:46,934 --> 00:38:50,054
people will say, oh, well, thank goodness

962
00:38:50,054 --> 00:38:51,946
now you're being financially compensated

963
00:38:51,946 --> 00:38:54,134
for coming up with your story, or thank

964
00:38:54,134 --> 00:38:56,346
goodness that you now have the platform

965
00:38:56,346 --> 00:38:58,086
because having that visibility and that

966
00:38:58,086 --> 00:39:04,406
fame must be comforting. I know that

967
00:39:04,406 --> 00:39:05,466
people are saying these things because

968
00:39:05,466 --> 00:39:07,326
they're intended to be consoling, but in

969
00:39:07,326 --> 00:39:11,902
some ways they're deeply insulting. And I

970
00:39:11,902 --> 00:39:13,166
never quite know how to react because I

971
00:39:13,166 --> 00:39:15,406
know that people mean to be supportive and

972
00:39:15,406 --> 00:39:18,290
they want to sort of find the bright side.

973
00:39:18,290 --> 00:39:20,066
Or as was said to me actually earlier in

974
00:39:20,066 --> 00:39:22,258
an interview today, they'll say things

975
00:39:22,258 --> 00:39:24,286
like, well, thank goodness you left the

976
00:39:24,286 --> 00:39:26,334
film industry, because look how you've

977
00:39:26,334 --> 00:39:28,418
succeeded in other industries. Or they'll

978
00:39:28,418 --> 00:39:31,078
say, well, even though your relationship

979
00:39:31,078 --> 00:39:32,786
at the time was destroyed and you've never

980
00:39:32,786 --> 00:39:34,262
trusted anyone again, but now you have a

981
00:39:34,262 --> 00:39:37,218
beautiful husband and children. And my

982
00:39:37,218 --> 00:39:38,774
husband and children are indeed beautiful

983
00:39:38,774 --> 00:39:41,126
and amazing and truly extraordinary.

984
00:39:41,126 --> 00:39:43,594
That's not to say that they're not, but I

985
00:39:43,594 --> 00:39:46,506
feel that the idea, the myth that one can

986
00:39:46,506 --> 00:39:50,346
use survivor success either in career or

987
00:39:50,346 --> 00:39:53,566
family or in other areas of their life as

988
00:39:53,566 --> 00:39:56,254
a way of saying, well, thank goodness or

989
00:39:56,254 --> 00:39:59,326
take consolation from. I think that's

990
00:39:59,326 --> 00:40:01,566
actually really tricky ground that's not

991
00:40:01,566 --> 00:40:03,178
only just thin ice, that's ice that

992
00:40:03,178 --> 00:40:06,290
doesn't even exist. And so that is

993
00:40:06,290 --> 00:40:08,194
something I feel your original question

994
00:40:08,194 --> 00:40:10,814
was, what do people not understand about

995
00:40:10,814 --> 00:40:13,698
survivors? And I think what I want to say

996
00:40:13,698 --> 00:40:17,266
is sit with survivors, understand their

997
00:40:17,266 --> 00:40:20,834
grief, acknowledge their grief. Don't be

998
00:40:20,834 --> 00:40:23,410
rushing to find the thing that, oh, thank

999
00:40:23,410 --> 00:40:26,034
goodness that. Thank goodness that God was

1000
00:40:26,034 --> 00:40:29,546
merciful and gave you this, because that

1001
00:40:29,546 --> 00:40:32,678
is a negation and a minimization and a

1002
00:40:32,678 --> 00:40:35,850
diminishing of incredible grief and

1003
00:40:35,850 --> 00:40:39,494
trauma. The analogy that I use, and I

1004
00:40:39,494 --> 00:40:41,238
apologize in advance if this analogy is

1005
00:40:41,238 --> 00:40:43,082
triggering to anyone. But I have several

1006
00:40:43,082 --> 00:40:44,734
friends who have literally lived through

1007
00:40:44,734 --> 00:40:47,326
this horrendous nightmare. But I always

1008
00:40:47,326 --> 00:40:50,174
think of the analogy of child bereavement.

1009
00:40:50,174 --> 00:40:52,318
If you end up in a situation where you are

1010
00:40:52,318 --> 00:40:55,214
a parent and you have a young child and

1011
00:40:55,214 --> 00:40:58,962
that child passes, you might go on to have

1012
00:40:58,962 --> 00:41:01,906
other children. But I hope that no one in

1013
00:41:01,906 --> 00:41:03,954
their right mind would ever say to you,

1014
00:41:03,954 --> 00:41:06,434
oh, thank goodness for your new baby, who

1015
00:41:06,434 --> 00:41:08,862
has entirely replaced the baby that

1016
00:41:08,862 --> 00:41:10,818
passed, the baby that had cancer, or the

1017
00:41:10,818 --> 00:41:13,606
baby that was still born. We don't say

1018
00:41:13,606 --> 00:41:16,294
that to bereaved mothers. And so I think

1019
00:41:16,294 --> 00:41:18,614
for survivors, we should not be saying,

1020
00:41:18,614 --> 00:41:20,102
but that's okay because you moved to

1021
00:41:20,102 --> 00:41:21,586
another career, and you were super

1022
00:41:21,586 --> 00:41:23,194
successful in that career, but that's okay

1023
00:41:23,194 --> 00:41:24,778
because you're married today and you have

1024
00:41:24,778 --> 00:41:27,754
beautiful children. I am married today. I

1025
00:41:27,754 --> 00:41:29,994
love my husband. My children are amazing.

1026
00:41:29,994 --> 00:41:32,742
That does not mean what happened to me was

1027
00:41:32,742 --> 00:41:35,146
right. It doesn't mean what happened to me

1028
00:41:35,146 --> 00:41:38,014
didn't cause untold grief and trauma that

1029
00:41:38,014 --> 00:41:41,194
I still sit with today. And that's not an

1030
00:41:41,194 --> 00:41:43,674
indictment against my husband. They're not

1031
00:41:43,674 --> 00:41:45,646
compensation for grief and trauma. One

1032
00:41:45,646 --> 00:41:47,662
doesn't overcome tremendous grief and

1033
00:41:47,662 --> 00:41:50,434
trauma simply because one got married or

1034
00:41:50,434 --> 00:41:52,530
is successful in a career or any other

1035
00:41:52,530 --> 00:41:59,560
form of sort of social success. So, well

1036
00:41:59,560 --> 00:42:02,546
said. And I just really appreciate your

1037
00:42:02,546 --> 00:42:04,230
perspective on that because it helps us

1038
00:42:04,230 --> 00:42:08,486
understand. In a deeper way. I think that

1039
00:42:08,486 --> 00:42:10,886
so many people want just to wrap this up

1040
00:42:10,886 --> 00:42:12,694
in a bow because it makes them feel

1041
00:42:12,694 --> 00:42:15,866
uncomfortable. They want a happy ending.

1042
00:42:15,866 --> 00:42:17,786
We all want wrongs to be made right. But

1043
00:42:17,786 --> 00:42:21,318
there is a suffering in this space that

1044
00:42:21,318 --> 00:42:23,642
it's just an ongoing thing. There is a

1045
00:42:23,642 --> 00:42:27,594
survival, but there's still a suffering.

1046
00:42:27,594 --> 00:42:30,430
I'm so sad with you of what you've walked

1047
00:42:30,430 --> 00:42:32,206
through. Of course I believe you. I've

1048
00:42:32,206 --> 00:42:34,782
told you this already. Every word you've

1049
00:42:34,782 --> 00:42:37,634
ever said about this story, I believe it

1050
00:42:37,634 --> 00:42:40,766
because it's your experience, and I'm so

1051
00:42:40,766 --> 00:42:42,674
angry on your behalf that you went through

1052
00:42:42,674 --> 00:42:45,122
that, that any woman has ever gone through

1053
00:42:45,122 --> 00:42:47,700
that. And as you speak up and share your

1054
00:42:47,700 --> 00:42:51,554
story, sitting with you in it and the

1055
00:42:51,554 --> 00:42:53,730
terrible aspects of it, and also

1056
00:42:53,730 --> 00:42:55,366
appreciating the beauty of who you are at

1057
00:42:55,366 --> 00:42:57,366
the same time, I hope that's something

1058
00:42:57,366 --> 00:42:59,574
that our listeners can also learn to hold

1059
00:42:59,574 --> 00:43:01,846
for you and for others going forward. And

1060
00:43:01,846 --> 00:43:03,946
I think that as you share all the nuance

1061
00:43:03,946 --> 00:43:06,666
of what it means to be a victim survivor,

1062
00:43:06,666 --> 00:43:08,426
that we'll get to a better space of being

1063
00:43:08,426 --> 00:43:11,194
able to hold all of those things together

1064
00:43:11,194 --> 00:43:13,994
as we support you and all other survivors

1065
00:43:13,994 --> 00:43:16,606
as well. So I lastly just want to give you

1066
00:43:16,606 --> 00:43:19,054
a chance to share where people can find

1067
00:43:19,054 --> 00:43:22,590
you as we go forward. And if people want

1068
00:43:22,590 --> 00:43:24,430
to read more about your writing or your

1069
00:43:24,430 --> 00:43:27,246
speaking, how can they find you? Thank you

1070
00:43:27,246 --> 00:43:29,266
for that suggestion and I will get on to

1071
00:43:29,266 --> 00:43:30,594
where people can find me. But I just

1072
00:43:30,594 --> 00:43:32,514
wanted to make one more point following on

1073
00:43:32,514 --> 00:43:35,714
from what you said about the neat bow. For

1074
00:43:35,714 --> 00:43:37,458
those who are seeking a neat bow, I feel

1075
00:43:37,458 --> 00:43:38,866
like I've sort of left it as please don't

1076
00:43:38,866 --> 00:43:40,386
say this and please don't say that. But

1077
00:43:40,386 --> 00:43:42,546
for those who are seeking a neat bow, what

1078
00:43:42,546 --> 00:43:44,526
I want to say is, if you want to be an

1079
00:43:44,526 --> 00:43:46,402
ally of the MeToo movement, it doesn't

1080
00:43:46,402 --> 00:43:47,746
matter what gender you are. It doesn't

1081
00:43:47,746 --> 00:43:49,834
matter how much power you hold or don't

1082
00:43:49,834 --> 00:43:52,022
hold. Anyone can be an ally of the metoo

1083
00:43:52,022 --> 00:43:53,338
movement. But what I want to say is, if

1084
00:43:53,338 --> 00:43:55,446
you are seeking the neat bow, here's a

1085
00:43:55,446 --> 00:43:58,890
neat bow. Sit with a survivor. Hear their

1086
00:43:58,890 --> 00:44:01,882
story, acknowledge their grief. Let them

1087
00:44:01,882 --> 00:44:04,142
own that space. Give them the space to

1088
00:44:04,142 --> 00:44:07,598
talk about it and say, yes, it's

1089
00:44:07,598 --> 00:44:09,374
absolutely say all the things that Laurie

1090
00:44:09,374 --> 00:44:11,246
was gracious enough and kind enough to say

1091
00:44:11,246 --> 00:44:14,846
just now. I believe you. I'm here for you.

1092
00:44:14,846 --> 00:44:17,246
I will listen for as long as it takes for

1093
00:44:17,246 --> 00:44:19,154
you to come out with your story. I will be

1094
00:44:19,154 --> 00:44:21,426
that safe space for you. If you're looking

1095
00:44:21,426 --> 00:44:24,814
for a bow, the bow is found there not in

1096
00:44:24,814 --> 00:44:27,474
rushing in and talking about consolitary

1097
00:44:27,474 --> 00:44:29,366
things that they have in their lives, but

1098
00:44:29,366 --> 00:44:31,862
instead seeing that survivor for who they

1099
00:44:31,862 --> 00:44:34,386
are and where they are. Hearing that

1100
00:44:34,386 --> 00:44:37,094
survivor story for the story in itself,

1101
00:44:37,094 --> 00:44:38,614
not in the context of anything else that

1102
00:44:38,614 --> 00:44:40,710
happened in it, but just that story is

1103
00:44:40,710 --> 00:44:43,318
enough in itself. It's hard to listen to.

1104
00:44:43,318 --> 00:44:46,186
It's a price to be paid, but it's far less

1105
00:44:46,186 --> 00:44:48,186
than the price of survivor themselves paid

1106
00:44:48,186 --> 00:44:50,314
to go through it. So in order to honor

1107
00:44:50,314 --> 00:44:52,826
their stories, I think that that is the

1108
00:44:52,826 --> 00:44:54,590
one thing that we can do for every

1109
00:44:54,590 --> 00:44:57,262
everybody can do this. It costs nothing to

1110
00:44:57,262 --> 00:45:02,782
sit, to listen and to acknowledge. You can

1111
00:45:02,782 --> 00:45:06,914
find me on Facebook, Twitter, Instagram. I

1112
00:45:06,914 --> 00:45:09,214
am across most social media platforms,

1113
00:45:09,214 --> 00:45:11,746
Snapchat, TikTok. I am working on a book

1114
00:45:11,746 --> 00:45:13,602
and I hope to come out with that book. I

1115
00:45:13,602 --> 00:45:17,022
do lots of speaking in churches, schools,

1116
00:45:17,022 --> 00:45:18,726
universities, workplaces. I will be going

1117
00:45:18,726 --> 00:45:21,046
up to Portland shortly in March to speak

1118
00:45:21,046 --> 00:45:24,310
to a consortium of covenant churches. I'm

1119
00:45:24,310 --> 00:45:26,802
working with several clients in Silicon

1120
00:45:26,802 --> 00:45:30,966
Valley and speaking, you know, although I

1121
00:45:30,966 --> 00:45:32,854
do feel it's true that we have a long road

1122
00:45:32,854 --> 00:45:35,074
ahead of us in terms of survival

1123
00:45:35,074 --> 00:45:37,114
awareness, survivor centric society. I

1124
00:45:37,114 --> 00:45:38,874
think the fact that I am able to have

1125
00:45:38,874 --> 00:45:41,306
these platforms and to share my story and

1126
00:45:41,306 --> 00:45:43,530
to open up a dialogue, really, about

1127
00:45:43,530 --> 00:45:45,194
people and their understanding of sexual

1128
00:45:45,194 --> 00:45:47,246
assault and survivorship, I'm grateful for

1129
00:45:47,246 --> 00:45:51,118
all of that. So grateful for you. Thank

1130
00:45:51,118 --> 00:45:52,974
you so much for being so vulnerable and

1131
00:45:52,974 --> 00:45:55,018
for speaking out for this ruina. We look

1132
00:45:55,018 --> 00:45:56,786
forward to your book and. Just thank you

1133
00:45:56,786 --> 00:46:03,422
for being who you are. Thank you. That

1134
00:46:03,422 --> 00:46:04,514
conversation may have brought up some

1135
00:46:04,514 --> 00:46:06,594
things for you as you heard her tell her

1136
00:46:06,594 --> 00:46:10,114
story. So much about what happens in abuse

1137
00:46:10,114 --> 00:46:11,698
stories is that those narratives often

1138
00:46:11,698 --> 00:46:13,478
don't come out for years, especially when

1139
00:46:13,478 --> 00:46:15,846
it comes to sexual assault. If it happened

1140
00:46:15,846 --> 00:46:19,334
as a child or even in someone's early 20s,

1141
00:46:19,334 --> 00:46:22,262
often we don't see them speaking out until

1142
00:46:22,262 --> 00:46:24,746
early fifty s. And so if this is something

1143
00:46:24,746 --> 00:46:26,394
that has come up for you or you've not

1144
00:46:26,394 --> 00:46:27,818
really shared it with anyone before, and

1145
00:46:27,818 --> 00:46:29,786
as you heard Rowena talking about her 20

1146
00:46:29,786 --> 00:46:33,306
years of silence and finally speaking out,

1147
00:46:33,306 --> 00:46:34,918
and that is something that you're wishing

1148
00:46:34,918 --> 00:46:37,102
to do, I just want to send you so much

1149
00:46:37,102 --> 00:46:39,502
love and support right now. It is really

1150
00:46:39,502 --> 00:46:41,726
hard to share your story with even someone

1151
00:46:41,726 --> 00:46:45,694
who you can trust. So do choose wisely as

1152
00:46:45,694 --> 00:46:49,774
you share it. And for those of you who are

1153
00:46:49,774 --> 00:46:52,066
sharing it already and are trying to find

1154
00:46:52,066 --> 00:46:53,778
a space in a community of support, I hope

1155
00:46:53,778 --> 00:46:55,330
you know that Rowena is one of those

1156
00:46:55,330 --> 00:46:58,002
people that is building that kind of

1157
00:46:58,002 --> 00:46:59,910
support around her just by sharing her

1158
00:46:59,910 --> 00:47:02,006
story herself. That is what's connected me

1159
00:47:02,006 --> 00:47:05,062
to her. And she's just a wonderful human

1160
00:47:05,062 --> 00:47:06,982
being. So grateful for her voice in this

1161
00:47:06,982 --> 00:47:09,478
space that she can share her story out

1162
00:47:09,478 --> 00:47:13,478
loud, as painful as it is, but that she's

1163
00:47:13,478 --> 00:47:16,874
finding hope and freedom and healing,

1164
00:47:16,874 --> 00:47:19,482
which is a really long, long journey and

1165
00:47:19,482 --> 00:47:22,634
has multiple layers for years. So if you

1166
00:47:22,634 --> 00:47:23,998
find yourself in that space, I just want

1167
00:47:23,998 --> 00:47:26,814
you to know that many of us here

1168
00:47:26,814 --> 00:47:28,718
understand, many of us have walked through

1169
00:47:28,718 --> 00:47:30,634
similar things, whether it's abuse of

1170
00:47:30,634 --> 00:47:32,990
various kinds or just traumatic

1171
00:47:32,990 --> 00:47:35,666
situations. And it can make a difference

1172
00:47:35,666 --> 00:47:37,138
to be able to share that with somebody

1173
00:47:37,138 --> 00:47:42,034
that you trust. So if you reach out and

1174
00:47:42,034 --> 00:47:45,330
want to share with someone or just need

1175
00:47:45,330 --> 00:47:47,846
support, feel free to dm me on Twitter

1176
00:47:47,846 --> 00:47:49,782
just to let me know. Not necessarily your

1177
00:47:49,782 --> 00:47:54,246
story, but this podcast resonated with

1178
00:47:54,246 --> 00:47:57,590
you. Or if you feel free to share your

1179
00:47:57,590 --> 00:47:59,494
name on a Twitter thread somewhere or

1180
00:47:59,494 --> 00:48:00,966
something more public on social media,

1181
00:48:00,966 --> 00:48:02,982
just to say, I resonated with this

1182
00:48:02,982 --> 00:48:05,306
episode. That's great, too. Or if you just

1183
00:48:05,306 --> 00:48:06,666
don't want to say anything at all and just

1184
00:48:06,666 --> 00:48:09,174
keep that to yourself. Absolutely. Your

1185
00:48:09,174 --> 00:48:11,978
choice. But whatever this podcast has done

1186
00:48:11,978 --> 00:48:13,686
for you today, I hope that if anything,

1187
00:48:13,686 --> 00:48:15,498
it's shown you that you're not alone,

1188
00:48:15,498 --> 00:48:17,486
you're not crazy. And that if something

1189
00:48:17,486 --> 00:48:19,146
like this happened to you, you didn't

1190
00:48:19,146 --> 00:48:21,402
deserve that. You deserved care and

1191
00:48:21,402 --> 00:48:23,646
safety. And I hope that going forward, you

1192
00:48:23,646 --> 00:48:25,534
can find healing and walk your way through

1193
00:48:25,534 --> 00:48:28,046
this journey like so many have in the

1194
00:48:28,046 --> 00:48:29,886
survivor community, which is to me, a very

1195
00:48:29,886 --> 00:48:31,986
sacred space. So glad that Rowena could

1196
00:48:31,986 --> 00:48:36,094
share her story today. So glad that she is

1197
00:48:36,094 --> 00:48:38,286
finding beauty in those ashes and that she

1198
00:48:38,286 --> 00:48:40,862
encouraged us to step into the lives of

1199
00:48:40,862 --> 00:48:42,726
survivors by sitting with them. And she

1200
00:48:42,726 --> 00:48:44,374
talked about wrapping up in a bow at the

1201
00:48:44,374 --> 00:48:47,142
end by just hearing them saying, I believe

1202
00:48:47,142 --> 00:48:48,726
you, I support you. I'll sit with you as

1203
00:48:48,726 --> 00:48:50,262
long as it takes for you to tell your

1204
00:48:50,262 --> 00:48:52,502
story as many times as you need to. And it

1205
00:48:52,502 --> 00:48:54,294
often takes many times to unpack those

1206
00:48:54,294 --> 00:48:56,486
onion layers. So if you're somebody who's

1207
00:48:56,486 --> 00:48:58,678
sitting with a survivor today, I'm also

1208
00:48:58,678 --> 00:49:00,234
sending you love because it really costs

1209
00:49:00,234 --> 00:49:02,042
to listen to, and it's really hard to

1210
00:49:02,042 --> 00:49:05,166
listen and sit there and feel that pain

1211
00:49:05,166 --> 00:49:08,094
with our friends, with our loved ones. So

1212
00:49:08,094 --> 00:49:09,422
for all of you out there making a

1213
00:49:09,422 --> 00:49:12,654
difference in this way, keep doing it, but

1214
00:49:12,654 --> 00:49:14,830
also take breaks, take care of yourself,

1215
00:49:14,830 --> 00:49:16,586
and thank you for just listening to

1216
00:49:16,586 --> 00:49:18,958
Rowena's story and the way she's

1217
00:49:18,958 --> 00:49:20,594
advocating. Feel free to join in with the

1218
00:49:20,594 --> 00:49:22,434
work that she's doing by listening to her

1219
00:49:22,434 --> 00:49:24,958
going and showing up where she speaks and

1220
00:49:24,958 --> 00:49:26,338
supporting her wherever she speaks around

1221
00:49:26,338 --> 00:49:30,302
the world. I know many of you listen in

1222
00:49:30,302 --> 00:49:31,614
Singapore, over in different countries in

1223
00:49:31,614 --> 00:49:33,766
Asia. She's occasionally speaks there. I

1224
00:49:33,766 --> 00:49:36,246
know she's in the UK sometimes and also

1225
00:49:36,246 --> 00:49:39,046
all across the US. But as she continues to

1226
00:49:39,046 --> 00:49:41,206
do her work, please support her. She's

1227
00:49:41,206 --> 00:49:42,614
just one of those people out there really

1228
00:49:42,614 --> 00:49:45,334
making a difference. And if you're in our

1229
00:49:45,334 --> 00:49:46,806
Patreon community called difference

1230
00:49:46,806 --> 00:49:48,058
makers, you'll get to hear me go a little

1231
00:49:48,058 --> 00:49:50,090
bit deeper with her into our question

1232
00:49:50,090 --> 00:49:52,474
around what kind of organizations does she

1233
00:49:52,474 --> 00:49:53,946
really get behind and support. And you'll

1234
00:49:53,946 --> 00:49:55,882
get to hear her kind of unpack those. She

1235
00:49:55,882 --> 00:49:57,818
has a lot of organizations that she really

1236
00:49:57,818 --> 00:49:59,534
believes in, but she kind of unpacks three

1237
00:49:59,534 --> 00:50:01,886
key ones there for us so we can have calls

1238
00:50:01,886 --> 00:50:04,046
to action together as difference makers.

1239
00:50:04,046 --> 00:50:07,550
So please go to patreon.com, a world of

1240
00:50:07,550 --> 00:50:09,714
difference to be able to watch the video

1241
00:50:09,714 --> 00:50:11,826
of that episode, that exclusive episode

1242
00:50:11,826 --> 00:50:14,578
where I ask her to unpack some of that for

1243
00:50:14,578 --> 00:50:16,702
us to have a call to action together as a

1244
00:50:16,702 --> 00:50:21,846
result of this. And if you are really just

1245
00:50:21,846 --> 00:50:25,062
in need of support and help once again. Or

1246
00:50:25,062 --> 00:50:27,302
just prayers. Feel free to reach out to

1247
00:50:27,302 --> 00:50:31,046
me. I'm on Twitter still x at loriadbr.

1248
00:50:31,046 --> 00:50:33,750
You can find me on Instagram. Lori Adams

1249
00:50:33,750 --> 00:50:35,930
Brown feel free to just message me there

1250
00:50:35,930 --> 00:50:37,594
and love to send you some love and support

1251
00:50:37,594 --> 00:50:39,994
your way. Anyway, thank you all of you

1252
00:50:39,994 --> 00:50:41,546
around the world who are listening to this

1253
00:50:41,546 --> 00:50:43,146
for just bearing witness to what happened

1254
00:50:43,146 --> 00:50:46,666
to Rowena, which was absolutely horrible

1255
00:50:46,666 --> 00:50:50,074
and it causes us to pause and lament and

1256
00:50:50,074 --> 00:50:52,262
just feel angry on her behalf that she

1257
00:50:52,262 --> 00:50:55,246
endured that and just sad with all that

1258
00:50:55,246 --> 00:50:58,226
she's had to experience as a result. And

1259
00:50:58,226 --> 00:51:01,074
in the meantime, as we hold those feelings

1260
00:51:01,074 --> 00:51:03,538
and also look for the beauty that we hold

1261
00:51:03,538 --> 00:51:06,126
at the same time, I hope that you are

1262
00:51:06,126 --> 00:51:07,714
finding love and support around you for

1263
00:51:07,714 --> 00:51:08,834
whatever you're walking through. That's

1264
00:51:08,834 --> 00:51:10,814
hard today. Keep making a difference