Weaving Together Beauty From Brokenness: An Artist's Journey Of Trauma Recovery with Erin Hung

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Welcome to the World of Difference

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podcast. I'm Lori Adams Brown and this is

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a podcast for those who are different and

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want to make a difference. This podcast is

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10% off your first month today I'm so

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excited to get to interview today a friend

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through social media that we have followed

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each other for a while and done a lot of

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dming back and forth and we're finally

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making this podcast interview happen after

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just having to reschedule it a few times

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due know various things in our schedule,

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so I'm really excited to bring Erin on

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today. Erin Hung is an artist living in

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Hong Kong. Her practice spans illustration

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work, murals, community art and writing.

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She received her fine arts BA in Central

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St Men at BM Shaw School of Art and her MA

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in contemporary art and Sotheby's

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Institute, both in London. She has been in

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the art and design space for almost two

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decades, working with some of the biggest

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global brands in the UK and the US, such

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as Chronicle books, American Greetings,

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Liberty of London, and Selfridges. Having

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grown up in the evangelical faith, been

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deeply committed since turning 18 and

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going through two separate bouts of

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religiously traumatic events over the

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course of her adult life, she stepped back

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to evaluate some of the systemic patterns

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and cultures she was brought up in and

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ultimately discovering a beautifully

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spiritual connection between the innate

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creativity we are all born with and how we

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can enter its portal for healing and shift

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paradigms because we carry the imprint of

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creator. She started the social media

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movement A to Z of trauma recovery, which

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many of you listening were involved in

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calling on survivors and marginalized

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communities to process and heal creatively

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together. Erin's practice now centers

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around advocating for communities at the

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fringes and works with mental health

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organizations as well as NGOs such as

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UNHCR to elevate unheard voices. Erin is a

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beautiful soul. Her art is absolutely

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gorgeous and compelling and causes us to

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have all the feels. And she's such a smart

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and caring and just thoughtful human being

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that I am so honored to have on the show

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today. So a very warm welcome all the way

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in Hong Kong to Erin Hung. Hi, Erin.

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Thanks for calling in today from Hong

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Kong. And I just wanted to say happy Lunar

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New Year. Happy year of the dragon to you

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and your family. Hi, Lori. It's good to be

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here. I'm so excited to chat with you and,

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yeah, happy New Year to you, too. Well,

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today we're going to talk about some, all

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kinds of things because there's parts of

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your story and who you are as a person.

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We're going to weave in and out of those,

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but first, I just wanted to sort of

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connect with you around your own kind of

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backstory. Who are you as a person? And I

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know you live in Hong Kong now. Have you

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always lived there? What are the cultures

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and places that kind of formed you as a.

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Yeah, that's my identity, I feel is kind

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of been a mosaic of a lot of things. I was

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born and bred in Hong Kong in an

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evangelical family. So in my early

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childhood years, we were very firmly

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rooted in Hong Kong. I went to local

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school here. We would go to church and it

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would be chinese speaking. But really the

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background is because my parents, we are

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chinese, but my parents went to university

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in the UK. So then they kind of found the

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christian faith and they brought it back.

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And Hong Kong is an ex colony anyway, so

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there's a lot of crossover there in

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culture. And so growing up, we moved

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around quite a lot. My dad took a job in

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New York and we moved there when I was

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about ten. And then we came back and did a

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couple of years and then I went off to

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boarding school. A lot of kids do that,

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get sent off to boarding schools in the UK

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or in other parts of the world because it

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gave us better chance of going to

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university somewhere else. I've jumped

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around quite a bit and I've taken my faith

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with me in all the different places and

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experience them in different churches and

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settings and communities and people. And

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then all the while, I also have the other

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part of me, which is the creative, which

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is also a little bit of an, I guess,

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anomaly in my culture. I guess in my

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parents generation, people tend to go for

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the professions that are guaranteed like a

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good living and to break the cycle of

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poverty. So I think ours is probably the

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first generation where anybody had dared

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to think about pursuing a dream that is

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not completely stable in income or even

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just kind of dream about something else

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that's a little bit different from other

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people. So I guess that was sort of the

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tightrope that I walked with my creativity

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and my faith versus my culture. Yes. So in

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a nutshell, sorry, could you. Share with

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us a little about your journey into

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becoming both a muralist, an artist and an

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abuse advocate? Sort of what motivated you

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to pursue this really unique combination

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of passions? I don't really remember a

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time when I thought, oh, this is what I

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want to do. I think there were different

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instances, probably growing up that I

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thought, oh, I might pursue the arts, I

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might go in this direction, I might do

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illustration, because I think the arts is

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so diverse. And it was always catching my

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attention in different ways. But as a kid,

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I was always the one staring out the

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window. So I went to a local school with,

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it's very traditional in the sense that

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there's like 40 in a classroom. You're all

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facing forward and the teachers in the

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front, they're just speaking at you. And

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so it's very much about conformity, about

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just getting the test scores, about doing

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what you're told. Everyone has perfect

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uniforms. And it was very much that kind

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of school. And I was always that round,

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square peg, I suppose square peg in the

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round hole, always staring out the window,

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doodling on the side of my pages. And it

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was, I suppose, not only just frowned upon

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it, I think it was kind of like, well,

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there's something probably very wrong with

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this child. Why would she do that? And I

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think, looking back, it feels very

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outdated, this kind of thinking. But I

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think in our culture, there's still that

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thread of conformity that runs very

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strong, I suppose, in asian cultures. And

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there's often, like one right way of doing

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things. And often if you veer from that,

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you kind of catch unwanted attention. And

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so for me, like I said, it was kind of

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like a tightrope because I always wanted

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to have belonging, but then I wanted to be

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myself. And it was sort of like, oh, you

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fall on the left and then you kind of fall

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on the right, and the balance is really

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hard. Yeah. And I think that's been the

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same for my faith as well, because also

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faith was a very big part of my life. I

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found that this became sort of my

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identity. I kind of have to balance, I

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suppose, a very strong part of my artistic

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sensibility with fitting in and not making

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too much noise, feeling so much. Pressure

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to fit into your educational environment

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in a very specific way. Was that also the

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case in your faith community outside of

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your school system? And how did this sort

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of influence your faith community and your

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own upbringing in terms of feeling sort of

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like you didn't maybe fit in as an artist

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in a very strict and rigid school system

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where conformity was key? How did that

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impact you and your faith community in

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addition to what you were dealing with in

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school? Yeah, I think for sure chinese

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churches can bring. I mean, I think this

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goes for all cultures, right? You bring a

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lot of the cultural undertones into how

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you read the Bible and how the preaching

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is done and also how the church is set up.

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And so it just becomes the fabric of your

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faith. Right. It's kind of woven in. I

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suppose the thing is that I didn't really

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have the language for how that worked. So

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it was kind of like, well, that's just

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your way of being, right. It's like, this

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is the faith that looks similar to our

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culture, but what doesn't? Because you're

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swimming in the same water, you don't kind

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of pick it apart. But I think maybe for

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me, the difference is that because I've

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jumped around a bit and I've met a kind of

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diverse range of people, even in the

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christian faith over the years has caused

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me to wonder, like, oh, wait a second. But

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that's not how they would say, interpret

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the Bible, for example. So one of the

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strongest examples, I think, in chinese

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culture is Filio piety, which is like the

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sense of obedience to your elders, and

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it's very strong. Right. We were raised

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and brought up to kind of never talk back

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and always comply and agree because elders

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are always wiser and they have the best

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interest for you in mind. And so even if,

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let's say, if they'd done something

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blatantly wrong or had hurt you, you don't

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talk back and you don't tell them. You

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just obey what they say, even if it's

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something that you don't want to do,

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because you will be like, the honor toward

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your parents or your elders will be

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rewarded in some sort of way. That's just

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how the culture works. And then when it's

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your turn to become the elder, then you

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get to kind of take that position and you

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kind of take that for granted. Because I

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did. Because when I was growing up, the

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pastor at our church would be like, see,

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that's what it says in the Bible. Honor

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your mother and honor your parents. And

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this is what it means. And he would expand

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the whole kind of culture piece into that

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one commandment, right? And then I went to

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school in London, and we did Bible

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studies, like, oh, wait a second. No,

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that's kind of like crossing the line. And

261
00:13:05,286 --> 00:13:07,942
there are things that you have to

262
00:13:07,942 --> 00:13:09,786
consider, like, what if what your parents

263
00:13:09,786 --> 00:13:11,866
are asking to do is not what God wants you

264
00:13:11,866 --> 00:13:20,298
to do? That would be an example of how we

265
00:13:20,298 --> 00:13:22,302
weave these culture pieces into the way we

266
00:13:22,302 --> 00:13:26,862
read scriptures. And then later on, I

267
00:13:26,862 --> 00:13:29,662
would discover that, oh, maybe there are

268
00:13:29,662 --> 00:13:36,526
other ways to read and other ways to be

269
00:13:36,526 --> 00:13:40,658
that's not absolute. What do you think it

270
00:13:40,658 --> 00:13:43,554
means currently? What was your experience

271
00:13:43,554 --> 00:13:47,286
around any of the theological conversation

272
00:13:47,286 --> 00:13:51,526
around decolonizing the scriptures? So in

273
00:13:51,526 --> 00:13:53,654
the sense that some of the scriptures in

274
00:13:53,654 --> 00:13:57,266
certain countries were brought in by

275
00:13:57,266 --> 00:13:59,414
westerners and then translated into local

276
00:13:59,414 --> 00:14:02,394
languages, Mandarin, for example, or any

277
00:14:02,394 --> 00:14:06,506
other language, Spanish, being brought by

278
00:14:06,506 --> 00:14:08,906
sort of also some colonizers, and having

279
00:14:08,906 --> 00:14:13,278
to decolonize the scriptures in order to

280
00:14:13,278 --> 00:14:15,966
understand them in a more ancient context.

281
00:14:15,966 --> 00:14:18,046
In light of what it means to be chinese,

282
00:14:18,046 --> 00:14:20,366
how has that conversation been a part of

283
00:14:20,366 --> 00:14:24,706
your own faith experience in recent years,

284
00:14:24,706 --> 00:14:29,300
or has that been part of your experience?

285
00:14:29,300 --> 00:14:34,114
Yes, I suppose it's very much woven into

286
00:14:34,114 --> 00:14:37,446
our culture as well then, that we look at

287
00:14:37,446 --> 00:14:41,960
our entire identity as being colonized.

288
00:14:41,960 --> 00:14:48,566
But for us, it's kind of a long and hard

289
00:14:48,566 --> 00:14:51,322
journey to even come to that place to be

290
00:14:51,322 --> 00:14:54,540
like, oh, yeah, I was colonized in that

291
00:14:54,540 --> 00:15:01,102
sense because growing up, you have the

292
00:15:01,102 --> 00:15:04,366
sense that you're a colonizer. So, for

293
00:15:04,366 --> 00:15:08,110
example, foreigners in Hong Kong or expats

294
00:15:08,110 --> 00:15:13,066
are superior, especially, I think, in the

295
00:15:13,066 --> 00:15:15,794
earlier days, like in the, you know, they

296
00:15:15,794 --> 00:15:20,594
kind of congregate around the nicer parts

297
00:15:20,594 --> 00:15:31,762
of town, and foreigners might take a

298
00:15:31,762 --> 00:15:34,034
chinese spouse, or it's usually like a

299
00:15:34,034 --> 00:15:38,806
chinese wife, and there would be this

300
00:15:38,806 --> 00:15:42,538
dynamic, like, then I'm going to say wife,

301
00:15:42,538 --> 00:15:44,954
because that's actually the more common

302
00:15:44,954 --> 00:15:48,586
way it happens, is that then the wife gets

303
00:15:48,586 --> 00:15:51,930
kind of like a bump in social status, and

304
00:15:51,930 --> 00:15:53,726
then I think the locals then would talk

305
00:15:53,726 --> 00:15:56,126
about them in a sense that now she's too

306
00:15:56,126 --> 00:15:58,638
good for us. So there's always this sense

307
00:15:58,638 --> 00:16:00,640
of, like, you kind of want to be like

308
00:16:00,640 --> 00:16:05,490
them, but you kind of have also this

309
00:16:05,490 --> 00:16:13,230
burning kind of jealousy as well, and it's

310
00:16:13,230 --> 00:16:19,782
ingrained into our culture. And like I

311
00:16:19,782 --> 00:16:24,502
think I said before I moved abroad or had

312
00:16:24,502 --> 00:16:27,206
a kind of look at how they studied

313
00:16:27,206 --> 00:16:30,602
history. And in art school, I studied, for

314
00:16:30,602 --> 00:16:33,274
example, things like orientalism. It was

315
00:16:33,274 --> 00:16:35,914
hard for me to put a finger on why things

316
00:16:35,914 --> 00:16:38,826
were the way they were because I swam in

317
00:16:38,826 --> 00:16:42,574
the water. Do you know what I mean? It's

318
00:16:42,574 --> 00:16:46,942
just part of the way the world is. But

319
00:16:46,942 --> 00:16:49,966
having that broader picture of, oh, this

320
00:16:49,966 --> 00:16:51,918
is what happened in history, and this is

321
00:16:51,918 --> 00:16:55,454
why people behave this way. And for a

322
00:16:55,454 --> 00:16:57,186
collectivist culture, it's very much kind

323
00:16:57,186 --> 00:16:59,646
of like, well, this is how we think. So

324
00:16:59,646 --> 00:17:01,714
there's no way of kind of disentangling

325
00:17:01,714 --> 00:17:09,506
from that. And so after having that

326
00:17:09,506 --> 00:17:14,242
broader world sense worldview, it was

327
00:17:14,242 --> 00:17:19,754
easier to disentangle and have a look at

328
00:17:19,754 --> 00:17:22,778
where did I come from and why the dynamics

329
00:17:22,778 --> 00:17:24,726
are the way they are. And of course,

330
00:17:24,726 --> 00:17:27,910
there's, like a growing global

331
00:17:27,910 --> 00:17:33,070
conversation as well around the idea of

332
00:17:33,070 --> 00:17:36,430
colonization. For example, you watch the

333
00:17:36,430 --> 00:17:40,606
Olympics, I think it was four years ago or

334
00:17:40,606 --> 00:17:42,094
eight years ago, the queen was sitting

335
00:17:42,094 --> 00:17:44,146
there and there were these, you know,

336
00:17:44,146 --> 00:17:45,554
like, waving their flags, and you're kind

337
00:17:45,554 --> 00:17:51,266
of like, are we still in those times? Is

338
00:17:51,266 --> 00:17:53,474
it still okay to talk about it like this?

339
00:17:53,474 --> 00:17:56,450
And the conversation is still kind of

340
00:17:56,450 --> 00:18:00,566
developing, I think, especially for our

341
00:18:00,566 --> 00:18:07,978
part of the world. I think it's because

342
00:18:07,978 --> 00:18:13,766
there are a lot of factors as to why we

343
00:18:13,766 --> 00:18:16,998
don't talk so much about it here or that

344
00:18:16,998 --> 00:18:18,874
we're kind of so entrenched in some of

345
00:18:18,874 --> 00:18:21,786
these ways because of, obviously, the pain

346
00:18:21,786 --> 00:18:24,526
that it brings up. Right. The trauma and

347
00:18:24,526 --> 00:18:26,782
the pain within families that get passed

348
00:18:26,782 --> 00:18:29,226
down, and we kind of just take things for

349
00:18:29,226 --> 00:18:35,742
granted that that's the way it is or that

350
00:18:35,742 --> 00:18:38,862
there's also that sense of the shame

351
00:18:38,862 --> 00:18:41,406
culture that we have very much here.

352
00:18:41,406 --> 00:18:47,254
That's a very big piece of, like, if you

353
00:18:47,254 --> 00:18:51,778
talk about things that are taboo or

354
00:18:51,778 --> 00:18:53,970
unpleasant and it makes other people

355
00:18:53,970 --> 00:18:56,018
uncomfortable, you kind of bring shame

356
00:18:56,018 --> 00:18:59,114
onto yourself and your family. So it's not

357
00:18:59,114 --> 00:19:02,140
even just like, oh, if I'm talking. So

358
00:19:02,140 --> 00:19:05,114
actually, for me to come onto a podcast

359
00:19:05,114 --> 00:19:09,078
and talk about things like this, I suppose

360
00:19:09,078 --> 00:19:14,670
it's not, like, unheard of, but I think

361
00:19:14,670 --> 00:19:17,486
people do still kind of cringe a little

362
00:19:17,486 --> 00:19:19,214
bit or get goosebumps, like, why would you

363
00:19:19,214 --> 00:19:24,814
do that? Because it's not just me. If I

364
00:19:24,814 --> 00:19:27,118
came on and I talked about what happened

365
00:19:27,118 --> 00:19:30,098
to me when I was a child and all the pain

366
00:19:30,098 --> 00:19:32,210
and the trauma in the family. I'm actually

367
00:19:32,210 --> 00:19:34,046
quite happy as a person to do that because

368
00:19:34,046 --> 00:19:37,510
I'm an open book. But I think for other

369
00:19:37,510 --> 00:19:41,506
people they might be like, oh, I'm kind of

370
00:19:41,506 --> 00:19:42,982
associated with that now because I'm her

371
00:19:42,982 --> 00:19:44,754
friend or I'm her family. So that the

372
00:19:44,754 --> 00:19:46,786
shame is like, is like transferred because

373
00:19:46,786 --> 00:19:53,994
we're collective. So there's a lot to sort

374
00:19:53,994 --> 00:19:56,954
of decolonize in that sense. And I think

375
00:19:56,954 --> 00:19:59,290
we haven't even touched on the faith piece

376
00:19:59,290 --> 00:20:02,126
yet because it kind of just bleeds into

377
00:20:02,126 --> 00:20:04,174
each other. I think when we talk about,

378
00:20:04,174 --> 00:20:08,574
for example, things like church abuse or

379
00:20:08,574 --> 00:20:11,674
so and so's pastor, that ties into the

380
00:20:11,674 --> 00:20:13,610
filio piety piece, like the submission

381
00:20:13,610 --> 00:20:16,722
piece and the shame piece, a lot of it is.

382
00:20:16,722 --> 00:20:18,846
Then everything just kind of locks in

383
00:20:18,846 --> 00:20:21,826
silence because it's better to just sweep

384
00:20:21,826 --> 00:20:27,010
it under the rug and bypass it, and it's

385
00:20:27,010 --> 00:20:33,206
easier to live in existence like that. I

386
00:20:33,206 --> 00:20:35,462
hope I've described a little bit of what

387
00:20:35,462 --> 00:20:38,522
it, I suppose, like what it feels like and

388
00:20:38,522 --> 00:20:45,386
what it is to be like in this situation.

389
00:20:45,386 --> 00:20:49,510
Because I suppose in the discussions of

390
00:20:49,510 --> 00:20:51,534
colonization or decolonization, we know

391
00:20:51,534 --> 00:20:55,086
how the mechanism works. But, yeah, this

392
00:20:55,086 --> 00:20:56,986
is kind of me describing to you what it

393
00:20:56,986 --> 00:21:00,590
feels like or to be in a situation that is

394
00:21:00,590 --> 00:21:05,134
currently still ongoing. Yeah, ongoing and

395
00:21:05,134 --> 00:21:07,586
multilayered. And I just really appreciate

396
00:21:07,586 --> 00:21:09,918
your voice. I'm learning so much from your

397
00:21:09,918 --> 00:21:11,618
perspective. I also appreciate your art

398
00:21:11,618 --> 00:21:14,866
and how you're expressing all of this. Dig

399
00:21:14,866 --> 00:21:17,986
us in a little deeper into what is

400
00:21:17,986 --> 00:21:21,522
unpacking all of this, like, for you.

401
00:21:21,522 --> 00:21:23,254
Honestly, I think in the beginning it

402
00:21:23,254 --> 00:21:26,840
really was just a part of my healing.

403
00:21:26,840 --> 00:21:32,982
Right. When we left our previous church, I

404
00:21:32,982 --> 00:21:36,406
genuinely just had lost all my coping

405
00:21:36,406 --> 00:21:41,274
mechanisms of. I couldn't pray, I couldn't

406
00:21:41,274 --> 00:21:44,246
open the bible and read something without

407
00:21:44,246 --> 00:21:45,598
wanting to rip it into stress. I don't

408
00:21:45,598 --> 00:21:48,094
know if it's okay to say, but it's like.

409
00:21:48,094 --> 00:21:49,886
Because if something that has been so good

410
00:21:49,886 --> 00:21:53,566
all your life had been then used to almost

411
00:21:53,566 --> 00:21:57,122
like, be used to death, it becomes this

412
00:21:57,122 --> 00:22:00,274
thing that is a giant monster. You don't

413
00:22:00,274 --> 00:22:04,114
know when it's going to jump out and rip

414
00:22:04,114 --> 00:22:06,946
your face off. Sorry, that is a very

415
00:22:06,946 --> 00:22:09,926
graphic picture. But I think it really was

416
00:22:09,926 --> 00:22:14,566
in those first couple of months, just. I

417
00:22:14,566 --> 00:22:20,234
was stuck in this fight or flight mode,

418
00:22:20,234 --> 00:22:22,890
actually. I was frozen. I was totally

419
00:22:22,890 --> 00:22:27,274
frozen. And it felt so hopeless because,

420
00:22:27,274 --> 00:22:28,906
yeah, like I said, right? Like before I

421
00:22:28,906 --> 00:22:30,974
could have just listened to a worship song

422
00:22:30,974 --> 00:22:33,274
or I could have prayed and I would have

423
00:22:33,274 --> 00:22:37,710
felt better, but I had pretty much, like

424
00:22:37,710 --> 00:22:44,514
nothing to turn to. And then it's not

425
00:22:44,514 --> 00:22:46,626
really something that I could just go and

426
00:22:46,626 --> 00:22:49,506
call up a friend about, because I think if

427
00:22:49,506 --> 00:22:54,770
you haven't experienced it, it's very hard

428
00:22:54,770 --> 00:22:57,270
to come alongside someone who's like.

429
00:22:57,270 --> 00:22:59,106
Because I think for other people, it

430
00:22:59,106 --> 00:23:02,790
threatens their sense of spirituality or

431
00:23:02,790 --> 00:23:09,814
identity. I think one day, I don't even

432
00:23:09,814 --> 00:23:13,066
remember how I started, but I spot,

433
00:23:13,066 --> 00:23:15,994
because I have a lot of art supplies in my

434
00:23:15,994 --> 00:23:17,946
house, and I'm a bit of a hoarder when it

435
00:23:17,946 --> 00:23:21,386
comes to art supplies. So I had this

436
00:23:21,386 --> 00:23:22,974
massive basket of yarn, and I just

437
00:23:22,974 --> 00:23:26,654
thought, oh, maybe I'll just do something

438
00:23:26,654 --> 00:23:31,802
with it. Because I grew up with this

439
00:23:31,802 --> 00:23:33,374
discipline of, like, you must wake up

440
00:23:33,374 --> 00:23:35,198
every day and do your quiet time. And then

441
00:23:35,198 --> 00:23:37,186
all of a sudden, it was gone. Right. There

442
00:23:37,186 --> 00:23:39,726
was nothing to ground me in the day that I

443
00:23:39,726 --> 00:23:42,366
felt like I wanted to go forward, and I

444
00:23:42,366 --> 00:23:45,486
felt I wanted to be connected to myself in

445
00:23:45,486 --> 00:23:47,346
some sense, but I didn't really have the

446
00:23:47,346 --> 00:23:49,494
tools anymore. So then I thought, oh,

447
00:23:49,494 --> 00:23:53,206
maybe if I started weaving or doing

448
00:23:53,206 --> 00:23:56,854
something, that it would help me process

449
00:23:56,854 --> 00:24:00,726
my thoughts. So I took this big bit of

450
00:24:00,726 --> 00:24:02,442
rope, and I was, like, wrapping yarn

451
00:24:02,442 --> 00:24:04,106
around it, and actually, I could show you

452
00:24:04,106 --> 00:24:08,780
a picture if you want. And I had all these

453
00:24:08,780 --> 00:24:11,174
different colors of yarn that I was

454
00:24:11,174 --> 00:24:12,522
wrapping. Like, I would do, like, one

455
00:24:12,522 --> 00:24:13,678
color, and then I would stop, and I would

456
00:24:13,678 --> 00:24:16,426
do another color. And I felt better, but I

457
00:24:16,426 --> 00:24:20,106
didn't quite know why. But then, because I

458
00:24:20,106 --> 00:24:22,506
felt better, I just kept doing it. And I

459
00:24:22,506 --> 00:24:25,154
felt like it was a way that I was like,

460
00:24:25,154 --> 00:24:26,962
okay, I'm not praying because I'm not

461
00:24:26,962 --> 00:24:29,438
saying, like, oh, heavenly father, blah,

462
00:24:29,438 --> 00:24:32,530
blah, blah, blah, blah. But I felt like,

463
00:24:32,530 --> 00:24:34,914
within myself, like maybe my soul, it was

464
00:24:34,914 --> 00:24:37,150
like something was being worked out. So I

465
00:24:37,150 --> 00:24:39,062
was like, okay, well, I will just keep

466
00:24:39,062 --> 00:24:43,170
doing that. So then these yarn things

467
00:24:43,170 --> 00:24:46,342
became super long because I just kept

468
00:24:46,342 --> 00:24:49,306
doing it. And I would wrap them up in

469
00:24:49,306 --> 00:24:51,706
these coils, and they became what I would

470
00:24:51,706 --> 00:24:57,786
call, like, my prayer circles. And then,

471
00:24:57,786 --> 00:25:01,354
of course, I was reading literature around

472
00:25:01,354 --> 00:25:05,322
therapy practices and stuff. So I kind of

473
00:25:05,322 --> 00:25:07,022
understood that it was somatic, like, it

474
00:25:07,022 --> 00:25:09,694
was something that my body was working

475
00:25:09,694 --> 00:25:13,186
out. And my husband's also a therapist, so

476
00:25:13,186 --> 00:25:16,818
he understands that. So he was explaining

477
00:25:16,818 --> 00:25:20,302
to me that your body traps a lot of the

478
00:25:20,302 --> 00:25:23,138
tension of what happened. And maybe

479
00:25:23,138 --> 00:25:28,146
sometimes words can't express exactly your

480
00:25:28,146 --> 00:25:29,442
thoughts and feelings because your mind

481
00:25:29,442 --> 00:25:30,934
doesn't quite understand it yet, but your

482
00:25:30,934 --> 00:25:34,038
body knows, so it's working through

483
00:25:34,038 --> 00:25:36,934
something. So then I kind of just tapped

484
00:25:36,934 --> 00:25:38,726
into it. When I tapped into it, I just

485
00:25:38,726 --> 00:25:40,026
thought, well, I'll just lean right into

486
00:25:40,026 --> 00:25:42,214
it. I think that it's part of also my

487
00:25:42,214 --> 00:25:44,394
personality is that if I find something

488
00:25:44,394 --> 00:25:47,180
that works, I'm just going to go, like,

489
00:25:47,180 --> 00:25:53,886
200%. So then I just thought, okay, well,

490
00:25:53,886 --> 00:25:56,734
the next thing I did was I wanted to do

491
00:25:56,734 --> 00:25:58,670
some gardening. And I felt like, I think

492
00:25:58,670 --> 00:26:00,334
basically it was just answering whatever

493
00:26:00,334 --> 00:26:03,442
my body told me to say, like, okay, this

494
00:26:03,442 --> 00:26:07,330
is something that would maybe make me feel

495
00:26:07,330 --> 00:26:10,366
better, so I'll go and do it. And, I mean,

496
00:26:10,366 --> 00:26:12,398
thankfully, it wasn't something that was

497
00:26:12,398 --> 00:26:15,426
totally, totally unhealthy or harmful, but

498
00:26:15,426 --> 00:26:17,046
I know that it was probably something that

499
00:26:17,046 --> 00:26:20,454
was going to help me. That's why. So then

500
00:26:20,454 --> 00:26:23,202
I started gardening and tending to my

501
00:26:23,202 --> 00:26:26,358
plants, and it also was very therapeutic

502
00:26:26,358 --> 00:26:29,674
in the way that then I felt like I was

503
00:26:29,674 --> 00:26:37,994
being taken care of back then. I still had

504
00:26:37,994 --> 00:26:41,902
this language of like, oh, maybe God is

505
00:26:41,902 --> 00:26:44,654
talking to me through this way and helping

506
00:26:44,654 --> 00:26:48,526
me realize that, for example, the trees

507
00:26:48,526 --> 00:26:53,266
are resilient and that I can be, too. Even

508
00:26:53,266 --> 00:26:55,458
if you bury a seed and it's gone and it's

509
00:26:55,458 --> 00:26:57,794
in darkness, like, it could rise again. I

510
00:26:57,794 --> 00:27:03,090
was kind of being spoken to, or like I had

511
00:27:03,090 --> 00:27:11,542
these revelations or ideas through the act

512
00:27:11,542 --> 00:27:13,960
of creativity or doing something with my

513
00:27:13,960 --> 00:27:18,870
hands. And so that's kind of how it all

514
00:27:18,870 --> 00:27:21,586
began. Then I just thought, well, if it

515
00:27:21,586 --> 00:27:23,786
was. If it was something inside of me that

516
00:27:23,786 --> 00:27:29,866
was helping me kind of heal, then I will

517
00:27:29,866 --> 00:27:33,946
not reject that, because I feel like maybe

518
00:27:33,946 --> 00:27:37,326
that's part of the design of who I am. And

519
00:27:37,326 --> 00:27:39,262
if it was the part of the design of who I

520
00:27:39,262 --> 00:27:41,662
am, then maybe it could be for other

521
00:27:41,662 --> 00:27:45,858
people, too. That is truly beautiful about

522
00:27:45,858 --> 00:27:48,450
just knowing how you were healing. I can

523
00:27:48,450 --> 00:27:50,994
just imagine it in my mind, picture it,

524
00:27:50,994 --> 00:27:54,818
and of course, it helps others heal. I

525
00:27:54,818 --> 00:27:57,398
mean, this is the nature of what I think a

526
00:27:57,398 --> 00:28:00,406
lot of us don't instinctively understand.

527
00:28:00,406 --> 00:28:03,990
I certainly didn't until I was involved in

528
00:28:03,990 --> 00:28:07,138
watching the trauma recovery after tsunami

529
00:28:07,138 --> 00:28:09,990
relief in Indonesia and realizing how

530
00:28:09,990 --> 00:28:12,246
important the right brain is in that

531
00:28:12,246 --> 00:28:13,926
trauma healing. And then when I pursued a

532
00:28:13,926 --> 00:28:15,962
trauma informed certification, that was a

533
00:28:15,962 --> 00:28:18,426
real key element of the healing process

534
00:28:18,426 --> 00:28:20,346
from trauma is right brain activities. So

535
00:28:20,346 --> 00:28:22,154
there you are knitting, there you are

536
00:28:22,154 --> 00:28:24,526
using your hands, this very somatic body

537
00:28:24,526 --> 00:28:27,226
work. It does help all of us, and you're

538
00:28:27,226 --> 00:28:29,806
showing us how. But I'd love for you to

539
00:28:29,806 --> 00:28:33,598
give us a little more about you and your

540
00:28:33,598 --> 00:28:35,726
own sort of spiritual abuse that you've

541
00:28:35,726 --> 00:28:38,814
walked through. Tell us about those

542
00:28:38,814 --> 00:28:41,278
moments that you have experienced and what

543
00:28:41,278 --> 00:28:43,826
that's been like for you. I don't know if

544
00:28:43,826 --> 00:28:47,474
there is one single moment again I think

545
00:28:47,474 --> 00:28:51,414
because I grew up in the faith, and quite

546
00:28:51,414 --> 00:28:53,830
early on, I think when I was 21, I'd

547
00:28:53,830 --> 00:28:58,766
already had my first experience of it. My

548
00:28:58,766 --> 00:29:01,414
pastor back then had shamed me from the

549
00:29:01,414 --> 00:29:05,866
pulpit and called me a know it all for

550
00:29:05,866 --> 00:29:08,426
some reason, because I think I was a girl

551
00:29:08,426 --> 00:29:10,762
and I was quite outspoken about some

552
00:29:10,762 --> 00:29:12,886
things I didn't agree with. And I. It

553
00:29:12,886 --> 00:29:15,870
wasn't like I was disrespectful or

554
00:29:15,870 --> 00:29:17,278
anything, but I think in his eyes, he's

555
00:29:17,278 --> 00:29:18,814
kind of like, how dare you? Who do you

556
00:29:18,814 --> 00:29:21,886
think you are? You're this very young. How

557
00:29:21,886 --> 00:29:25,950
old are you? 21. And you didn't go to

558
00:29:25,950 --> 00:29:27,778
seminary? How dare you kind of take me on

559
00:29:27,778 --> 00:29:31,938
and kind of taken a while anyways to kind

560
00:29:31,938 --> 00:29:35,758
of silence me. I was told to not be a know

561
00:29:35,758 --> 00:29:38,806
it all, and he said it from the pulpit, so

562
00:29:38,806 --> 00:29:42,966
other people knew it, too. And I carried

563
00:29:42,966 --> 00:29:45,730
that with me because obviously it was

564
00:29:45,730 --> 00:29:47,974
devastating to kind of like, you kind of

565
00:29:47,974 --> 00:29:51,594
were like, what just happened? You kind of

566
00:29:51,594 --> 00:29:57,900
look around and the shock of it is like.

567
00:29:57,900 --> 00:30:01,146
And I carried that around with me because

568
00:30:01,146 --> 00:30:04,506
I knew that what he did was not okay. But

569
00:30:04,506 --> 00:30:05,806
somehow there was still a part of me, and

570
00:30:05,806 --> 00:30:07,550
I think that it was also other people

571
00:30:07,550 --> 00:30:10,478
around me, probably. I don't remember very

572
00:30:10,478 --> 00:30:14,026
much that were saying, but maybe you

573
00:30:14,026 --> 00:30:16,402
didn't deal with it in the best way, or

574
00:30:16,402 --> 00:30:17,970
maybe it was that you were not in a

575
00:30:17,970 --> 00:30:20,194
position to saying anything. Maybe it was

576
00:30:20,194 --> 00:30:24,178
that you needed to wait until you had a

577
00:30:24,178 --> 00:30:27,426
position of trust in his inner circle.

578
00:30:27,426 --> 00:30:30,486
Then you could have said something. And so

579
00:30:30,486 --> 00:30:31,958
I carried that around with me because it

580
00:30:31,958 --> 00:30:33,766
was like, well, I know that what he did

581
00:30:33,766 --> 00:30:36,342
was not right, but maybe I had a part to

582
00:30:36,342 --> 00:30:41,002
play in it. And then not five years later,

583
00:30:41,002 --> 00:30:43,306
maybe seven. Five, seven years later, we

584
00:30:43,306 --> 00:30:45,050
were in London. So this is completely

585
00:30:45,050 --> 00:30:47,690
different setting, completely different

586
00:30:47,690 --> 00:30:52,186
church back then, my husband's best man,

587
00:30:52,186 --> 00:30:57,130
we were in this just very low anglican

588
00:30:57,130 --> 00:30:59,870
church, and it was Bible believing, and

589
00:30:59,870 --> 00:31:03,034
everything was about the Bible, and they

590
00:31:03,034 --> 00:31:06,062
spoke in tongues, so they wanted to tell

591
00:31:06,062 --> 00:31:09,394
people about it, and they wanted to kind

592
00:31:09,394 --> 00:31:11,314
of explore that on their own. And they

593
00:31:11,314 --> 00:31:13,266
were barred from going into service one

594
00:31:13,266 --> 00:31:14,782
day. Like, all of a sudden, they were

595
00:31:14,782 --> 00:31:16,680
barred. They were like, don't come in,

596
00:31:16,680 --> 00:31:19,542
because who knows what you might teach

597
00:31:19,542 --> 00:31:23,320
other people? And we just kind of watched

598
00:31:23,320 --> 00:31:26,054
them do that. Right? And it was kind of

599
00:31:26,054 --> 00:31:28,114
also the trauma, I think you call it

600
00:31:28,114 --> 00:31:29,174
vicarious trauma, because you're just

601
00:31:29,174 --> 00:31:32,054
watching it happen and you can't

602
00:31:32,054 --> 00:31:33,834
verbalize, like, what's wrong, because the

603
00:31:33,834 --> 00:31:35,814
power dynamic dynamics is like, well, I

604
00:31:35,814 --> 00:31:37,786
can't say anything it's very hard. But we

605
00:31:37,786 --> 00:31:41,882
did end up leaving with our friends. So

606
00:31:41,882 --> 00:31:44,974
then it was almost like, well, you go to

607
00:31:44,974 --> 00:31:46,414
one church and that happens. You go to

608
00:31:46,414 --> 00:31:48,206
another one and that happens, and you put

609
00:31:48,206 --> 00:31:51,934
these little pieces together and you don't

610
00:31:51,934 --> 00:31:53,966
quite know because people always say, no,

611
00:31:53,966 --> 00:31:58,126
church is perfect, and don't expect your

612
00:31:58,126 --> 00:32:01,406
pastor to be perfect. And you should

613
00:32:01,406 --> 00:32:02,706
examine your heart as well. Like, where

614
00:32:02,706 --> 00:32:05,566
have you gone wrong? And that whole

615
00:32:05,566 --> 00:32:15,410
gaslighting piece. And it really was

616
00:32:15,410 --> 00:32:18,600
therapy that helped me put all the pieces

617
00:32:18,600 --> 00:32:21,786
together, because concurrently, I started

618
00:32:21,786 --> 00:32:24,346
going to therapy for some just unrelated.

619
00:32:24,346 --> 00:32:26,186
It wasn't really even about church. It was

620
00:32:26,186 --> 00:32:28,426
just about I wanted to work through some

621
00:32:28,426 --> 00:32:33,086
of my childhood stuff. I just had a baby.

622
00:32:33,086 --> 00:32:36,702
I had postnatal depression. I just wanted

623
00:32:36,702 --> 00:32:40,826
to, you know, like it was for me. But I

624
00:32:40,826 --> 00:32:42,954
learned to put language to a lot of the

625
00:32:42,954 --> 00:32:46,946
dynamics that are not healthy in my life,

626
00:32:46,946 --> 00:32:52,526
in my family of origin, in our culture. I

627
00:32:52,526 --> 00:32:54,258
learned to kind of dissect it in a way

628
00:32:54,258 --> 00:32:56,226
that was like, okay, you jump out of it,

629
00:32:56,226 --> 00:32:58,966
and then you pull user threads apart and

630
00:32:58,966 --> 00:33:03,826
you look at what's pulling at what and how

631
00:33:03,826 --> 00:33:06,546
that's affecting the different parts. I

632
00:33:06,546 --> 00:33:08,566
learned to kind of look at things that way

633
00:33:08,566 --> 00:33:10,218
as opposed to just like, oh, that's just

634
00:33:10,218 --> 00:33:14,618
the way it is. Or the Bible says before we

635
00:33:14,618 --> 00:33:16,186
just kind of bypass everything with like,

636
00:33:16,186 --> 00:33:19,898
oh, the Bible says this, or God says, it's

637
00:33:19,898 --> 00:33:21,440
going to be okay, so it's going to be

638
00:33:21,440 --> 00:33:25,310
okay. But, yeah, so that's when I kind of

639
00:33:25,310 --> 00:33:30,942
started to have language. And as things

640
00:33:30,942 --> 00:33:34,946
went on, and I think perhaps it culminated

641
00:33:34,946 --> 00:33:38,706
in a way where in this previous church,

642
00:33:38,706 --> 00:33:46,886
the last one that I had been to, I was in

643
00:33:46,886 --> 00:33:49,798
a position of, in my first experience, I

644
00:33:49,798 --> 00:33:52,386
was like, well, who am I to say anything?

645
00:33:52,386 --> 00:33:55,734
I'm just this young little girl who nobody

646
00:33:55,734 --> 00:34:00,394
has any respect for. I was already on the

647
00:34:00,394 --> 00:34:02,490
board of directors in my previous church,

648
00:34:02,490 --> 00:34:06,550
and I was serving, like, in multiple

649
00:34:06,550 --> 00:34:09,420
ministries. And I felt like, well, maybe I

650
00:34:09,420 --> 00:34:13,134
had the ear of somebody who would, who

651
00:34:13,134 --> 00:34:16,686
would listen to me if I was speaking up

652
00:34:16,686 --> 00:34:19,774
for the vulnerable or if somebody was

653
00:34:19,774 --> 00:34:21,742
getting hurt and nobody wanted to listen.

654
00:34:21,742 --> 00:34:24,500
Maybe I had an ear to somebody who would

655
00:34:24,500 --> 00:34:28,402
listen and trust me enough to do something

656
00:34:28,402 --> 00:34:32,626
about it. But it turns out that I think

657
00:34:32,626 --> 00:34:34,370
when I just kind of found out the hard

658
00:34:34,370 --> 00:34:36,626
way, because I carried it with me for so

659
00:34:36,626 --> 00:34:38,046
long, I just thought, oh, maybe it was my

660
00:34:38,046 --> 00:34:40,054
fault. Like, I'd just spoken out of turn.

661
00:34:40,054 --> 00:34:41,702
But it wasn't that I had spoken out of

662
00:34:41,702 --> 00:34:43,800
turn, because even if you were in a

663
00:34:43,800 --> 00:34:47,834
position of influence, even if you had the

664
00:34:47,834 --> 00:34:50,810
trust in the ear of somebody who in

665
00:34:50,810 --> 00:34:54,986
leadership, when the cards get revealed on

666
00:34:54,986 --> 00:34:59,862
the table, it was still that, well, we

667
00:34:59,862 --> 00:35:02,702
still protect the leadership. We still

668
00:35:02,702 --> 00:35:06,106
protect our own. We still kind of, like,

669
00:35:06,106 --> 00:35:09,866
shun out the anomaly because they

670
00:35:09,866 --> 00:35:12,586
contaminate the batch, right? And I think

671
00:35:12,586 --> 00:35:15,294
that's when I realized that, oh, it

672
00:35:15,294 --> 00:35:17,010
doesn't actually matter. It doesn't

673
00:35:17,010 --> 00:35:21,070
actually matter where I'm standing. And I

674
00:35:21,070 --> 00:35:23,186
spent maybe the last 1015 years trying to

675
00:35:23,186 --> 00:35:25,314
make a difference, because I felt like if

676
00:35:25,314 --> 00:35:27,366
only I was doing better, if only I was

677
00:35:27,366 --> 00:35:31,666
more trustworthy, if only I had all the

678
00:35:31,666 --> 00:35:35,446
credentials that you needed, then I could

679
00:35:35,446 --> 00:35:37,686
maybe get your heart to break for some of

680
00:35:37,686 --> 00:35:40,762
the things that I felt like God was

681
00:35:40,762 --> 00:35:44,426
putting online, but it wasn't the case.

682
00:35:44,426 --> 00:35:46,358
And I think that's when I started to

683
00:35:46,358 --> 00:35:49,098
examine why that was. And then back then,

684
00:35:49,098 --> 00:35:51,066
it was about two and a half years ago, so

685
00:35:51,066 --> 00:35:52,878
there was all this literature that was on

686
00:35:52,878 --> 00:35:56,206
the brink of coming out. And so it was

687
00:35:56,206 --> 00:35:59,226
very timely, because once I started

688
00:35:59,226 --> 00:36:01,470
opening, I think the first one was Wade

689
00:36:01,470 --> 00:36:04,606
Mullins. When our citizen comes to church,

690
00:36:04,606 --> 00:36:11,086
it's like, oh, okay, I get it now. It

691
00:36:11,086 --> 00:36:15,334
tells me this systemic story of why we are

692
00:36:15,334 --> 00:36:20,934
here today. And my kind of faith journey

693
00:36:20,934 --> 00:36:22,694
has kind of just been the playing out of

694
00:36:22,694 --> 00:36:25,350
the different parts of what he's

695
00:36:25,350 --> 00:36:30,170
describing. So, no, there was not one

696
00:36:30,170 --> 00:36:34,474
moment, but all these little things that

697
00:36:34,474 --> 00:36:40,630
kind of were puzzle pieces for me. So

698
00:36:40,630 --> 00:36:42,494
heartbreaking. I hate that you had to go

699
00:36:42,494 --> 00:36:47,066
through that. And yet you talked about

700
00:36:47,066 --> 00:36:48,862
wanting to make a difference and trying so

701
00:36:48,862 --> 00:36:51,658
hard and doing all the things. And now

702
00:36:51,658 --> 00:36:54,126
you're bringing your uniqueness of the way

703
00:36:54,126 --> 00:36:56,114
that you're making a difference through

704
00:36:56,114 --> 00:36:58,882
art, through your voice, help us

705
00:36:58,882 --> 00:37:02,386
understand a little more about your art,

706
00:37:02,386 --> 00:37:04,066
what it means, what it means to you, and

707
00:37:04,066 --> 00:37:06,374
how it's making a difference for others as

708
00:37:06,374 --> 00:37:08,680
they heal and process all these things,

709
00:37:08,680 --> 00:37:14,130
too. For me, I think, because I'm an

710
00:37:14,130 --> 00:37:17,954
anagram four. So I always look for

711
00:37:17,954 --> 00:37:19,954
meanings and things. And one of the

712
00:37:19,954 --> 00:37:21,766
biggest question, I think, one of my fears

713
00:37:21,766 --> 00:37:25,320
is that, what if I go away one day or die,

714
00:37:25,320 --> 00:37:29,686
and I've not left my mark in the world? So

715
00:37:29,686 --> 00:37:31,726
one of the. The things that I always ask

716
00:37:31,726 --> 00:37:34,766
is, like, why am I this way? Why did God

717
00:37:34,766 --> 00:37:37,198
make me this way? Why am I designed this

718
00:37:37,198 --> 00:37:41,274
way? And with art and creativity and

719
00:37:41,274 --> 00:37:45,938
healing, I feel like I was able to put all

720
00:37:45,938 --> 00:37:51,822
the pieces together. So when I was kind of

721
00:37:51,822 --> 00:37:56,390
devastated with this whole. With the

722
00:37:56,390 --> 00:37:59,174
trauma, I felt that with creativity, it

723
00:37:59,174 --> 00:38:02,598
was the one thing that I wanted to do that

724
00:38:02,598 --> 00:38:11,850
could heal me. And I suppose I think that

725
00:38:11,850 --> 00:38:15,894
for people, when they say they are not

726
00:38:15,894 --> 00:38:18,650
creative or they're not artistically

727
00:38:18,650 --> 00:38:24,698
inclined, I want to try and be the. I

728
00:38:24,698 --> 00:38:26,398
don't know if conduit is the right word,

729
00:38:26,398 --> 00:38:28,494
but just the person that brings that

730
00:38:28,494 --> 00:38:31,200
piece. That's like, maybe if I ignite this

731
00:38:31,200 --> 00:38:34,926
match, you might burn a fire. It might

732
00:38:34,926 --> 00:38:38,020
kindle a fire that could help you on your

733
00:38:38,020 --> 00:38:42,546
way. Because I do strongly believe that we

734
00:38:42,546 --> 00:38:47,942
are all creative in very different ways.

735
00:38:47,942 --> 00:38:50,294
Maybe not in the traditional, like, you

736
00:38:50,294 --> 00:38:53,126
could draw a portrait or build a thing

737
00:38:53,126 --> 00:38:56,214
kind of way, but everybody has a thing

738
00:38:56,214 --> 00:38:58,866
that they feel like they could do, or

739
00:38:58,866 --> 00:39:00,842
maybe they feel like they want to do, but

740
00:39:00,842 --> 00:39:03,526
maybe has never explored that. And I think

741
00:39:03,526 --> 00:39:06,666
that's really important in that when we

742
00:39:06,666 --> 00:39:10,318
talk about healing, because if we don't

743
00:39:10,318 --> 00:39:13,694
answer to what the creative impulse or the

744
00:39:13,694 --> 00:39:19,722
thing that God put inside us and fully

745
00:39:19,722 --> 00:39:22,106
explore that, then it's very hard to

746
00:39:22,106 --> 00:39:26,686
imagine a way forward for ourselves and

747
00:39:26,686 --> 00:39:28,174
for the church. I don't know if that's

748
00:39:28,174 --> 00:39:32,286
making any sense at all. I think for me,

749
00:39:32,286 --> 00:39:34,590
it is the imagination piece. I think

750
00:39:34,590 --> 00:39:36,278
sometimes we get stuck in a way that's

751
00:39:36,278 --> 00:39:37,878
like, oh, this is really bad, but what are

752
00:39:37,878 --> 00:39:39,686
the ways we can move forward? There's

753
00:39:39,686 --> 00:39:41,298
nothing we could do. And then you get

754
00:39:41,298 --> 00:39:42,818
stuck in this kind of logical way where

755
00:39:42,818 --> 00:39:44,546
it's like, well, a plus b equals C.

756
00:39:44,546 --> 00:39:46,514
There's no way you could do. But with

757
00:39:46,514 --> 00:39:48,066
creativity, it is that literally, like,

758
00:39:48,066 --> 00:39:50,294
there's no wrong answer. So you can

759
00:39:50,294 --> 00:39:53,642
imagine whatever it is that you want. And

760
00:39:53,642 --> 00:39:56,246
maybe this is what very rigid systems

761
00:39:56,246 --> 00:39:58,186
hate, because there's no way to control

762
00:39:58,186 --> 00:40:00,540
the outcome of what a creative person

763
00:40:00,540 --> 00:40:03,734
does. But maybe this is what we need,

764
00:40:03,734 --> 00:40:06,074
because we do need kind of outside the box

765
00:40:06,074 --> 00:40:08,414
thinkers and answers and people that might

766
00:40:08,414 --> 00:40:10,286
be like, okay, maybe if it doesn't look

767
00:40:10,286 --> 00:40:13,806
like this, could it look like that? And I

768
00:40:13,806 --> 00:40:16,158
think with art and creativity, it's not

769
00:40:16,158 --> 00:40:20,414
just like a picture. Of course, beauty and

770
00:40:20,414 --> 00:40:22,302
aesthetic and all of those things are very

771
00:40:22,302 --> 00:40:24,562
essential parts that speak to our souls

772
00:40:24,562 --> 00:40:26,866
and can move us forward as well and can

773
00:40:26,866 --> 00:40:28,822
heal us. But I think the broader picture

774
00:40:28,822 --> 00:40:33,270
really is that when we come to solutions

775
00:40:33,270 --> 00:40:35,766
and building new things, you need that

776
00:40:35,766 --> 00:40:38,522
kind of like, what if. What if we build a

777
00:40:38,522 --> 00:40:40,634
world that was different or a church that

778
00:40:40,634 --> 00:40:48,426
looks different? A lot of the church

779
00:40:48,426 --> 00:40:50,282
history, for example, study church

780
00:40:50,282 --> 00:40:51,994
history. Things change because of that,

781
00:40:51,994 --> 00:40:53,706
right? Things change because there's like,

782
00:40:53,706 --> 00:40:55,550
a new invention, or like, the printing

783
00:40:55,550 --> 00:40:57,210
press changed the way that we read the

784
00:40:57,210 --> 00:40:59,434
Bible, or there's always that kind of

785
00:40:59,434 --> 00:41:01,422
innovation piece, or that creativity piece

786
00:41:01,422 --> 00:41:03,150
that pushes things along and moves it

787
00:41:03,150 --> 00:41:06,014
forward. And I think that it sounds

788
00:41:06,014 --> 00:41:08,082
terribly abstract because I don't have the

789
00:41:08,082 --> 00:41:09,794
answer. I believe that everybody has their

790
00:41:09,794 --> 00:41:11,602
own answers to it because they have it

791
00:41:11,602 --> 00:41:16,206
within themselves. And what I alluded to

792
00:41:16,206 --> 00:41:18,306
earlier is maybe that I just want to be

793
00:41:18,306 --> 00:41:20,802
that fire clicker that's just like, tick,

794
00:41:20,802 --> 00:41:24,246
tick. And then maybe you guys or others

795
00:41:24,246 --> 00:41:25,798
can be like, oh, maybe this is what I want

796
00:41:25,798 --> 00:41:27,400
to do, and this is what I want to take

797
00:41:27,400 --> 00:41:32,534
forward. So I'm developing that kind of, I

798
00:41:32,534 --> 00:41:34,234
guess, that language or that explanation

799
00:41:34,234 --> 00:41:36,042
around it. What is it that I'm trying to

800
00:41:36,042 --> 00:41:38,154
do? I'm still exploring, like, what it

801
00:41:38,154 --> 00:41:39,658
could look like, but this is what I have

802
00:41:39,658 --> 00:41:46,558
in my head and how it could work. And,

803
00:41:46,558 --> 00:41:50,314
yeah, I feel like maybe in a very kind of

804
00:41:50,314 --> 00:41:51,694
rigid, traditional sense, it's like, well,

805
00:41:51,694 --> 00:41:53,310
that doesn't actually help us with

806
00:41:53,310 --> 00:41:56,994
anything. But I feel like maybe that's my

807
00:41:56,994 --> 00:41:59,666
part in bringing that kind of creativity.

808
00:41:59,666 --> 00:42:02,734
Or the revelation of it is that I want to

809
00:42:02,734 --> 00:42:05,090
encourage people to move along their

810
00:42:05,090 --> 00:42:07,414
creativity and see what they find on the

811
00:42:07,414 --> 00:42:10,194
other end of it. Well, you have certainly

812
00:42:10,194 --> 00:42:13,414
helped many find their creatives aside and

813
00:42:13,414 --> 00:42:14,966
through your movement that you've started

814
00:42:14,966 --> 00:42:19,146
the A to Z trauma recovery and just help

815
00:42:19,146 --> 00:42:22,682
people express themselves in ways that

816
00:42:22,682 --> 00:42:24,634
bring their own healing but also allow

817
00:42:24,634 --> 00:42:27,962
others to heal as they see these creative

818
00:42:27,962 --> 00:42:32,026
works of art on display. So you are making

819
00:42:32,026 --> 00:42:34,926
such a difference, and I'm so just honored

820
00:42:34,926 --> 00:42:37,082
to have had you on the show today

821
00:42:37,082 --> 00:42:39,450
expressing who you are, both with your

822
00:42:39,450 --> 00:42:42,366
voice and also pointing us to your art. So

823
00:42:42,366 --> 00:42:44,782
in light of that, let us know where we can

824
00:42:44,782 --> 00:42:48,066
find you and on social media and follow

825
00:42:48,066 --> 00:42:50,194
more of the art and beauty that you're

826
00:42:50,194 --> 00:42:52,706
putting out into the world. So I'm mainly

827
00:42:52,706 --> 00:42:55,790
on Instagram, which is you can find me at

828
00:42:55,790 --> 00:42:59,026
Erin Hung. Erinhung. And then it's

829
00:42:59,026 --> 00:43:00,898
underscore studio. If you search Erin

830
00:43:00,898 --> 00:43:04,226
hung, I'm sure it'll come up. And I'm

831
00:43:04,226 --> 00:43:06,198
mainly on there. And you can also find,

832
00:43:06,198 --> 00:43:09,046
actually, the A to Z of trauma recovery,

833
00:43:09,046 --> 00:43:11,180
which is the movement that I started last

834
00:43:11,180 --> 00:43:15,830
year under the hashtag A to Z of trauma

835
00:43:15,830 --> 00:43:18,010
recovery. And you can find all the

836
00:43:18,010 --> 00:43:19,846
community posts there. I think we've

837
00:43:19,846 --> 00:43:22,734
collected over 500 now, which was kind of

838
00:43:22,734 --> 00:43:24,846
mind blowing, actually, because I thought,

839
00:43:24,846 --> 00:43:28,014
oh, maybe if it was just me, then it would

840
00:43:28,014 --> 00:43:34,142
also be fine. But the first four weeks of

841
00:43:34,142 --> 00:43:37,986
January last year, we had a lot of posts

842
00:43:37,986 --> 00:43:40,194
from people processing and talking about

843
00:43:40,194 --> 00:43:43,202
their experiences. So if anyone is

844
00:43:43,202 --> 00:43:47,174
interested in kind of proving the hashtag,

845
00:43:47,174 --> 00:43:49,974
all the artwork is there. To look at as

846
00:43:49,974 --> 00:43:52,726
well. Well, Erin, you're making such a

847
00:43:52,726 --> 00:43:55,106
difference, and as you heal, you're

848
00:43:55,106 --> 00:43:57,446
helping others heal and process all of

849
00:43:57,446 --> 00:44:01,242
these things in ways that help us see our

850
00:44:01,242 --> 00:44:03,174
part in this whole tapestry that's being

851
00:44:03,174 --> 00:44:05,306
woven with all of us so interconnected.

852
00:44:05,306 --> 00:44:08,826
And thank you for your just words today,

853
00:44:08,826 --> 00:44:10,586
that you're not only showing us through

854
00:44:10,586 --> 00:44:12,874
your art, but you're speaking your own

855
00:44:12,874 --> 00:44:14,346
words and your perspective really is

856
00:44:14,346 --> 00:44:15,970
making a difference. It's been such an

857
00:44:15,970 --> 00:44:18,014
honor to have you on the show today, Erin.

858
00:44:18,014 --> 00:44:19,614
Oh, thanks. That's so kind of you to say.

859
00:44:19,614 --> 00:44:21,502
And I was very excited to have this chat.

860
00:44:21,502 --> 00:44:24,282
So thank you for having me and giving me a

861
00:44:24,282 --> 00:44:27,234
chance to speak more about what my heart

862
00:44:27,234 --> 00:44:31,474
is for. That conversation just meant so

863
00:44:31,474 --> 00:44:33,666
much to me. I don't know how it sounded

864
00:44:33,666 --> 00:44:35,314
for you all over the world listening.

865
00:44:35,314 --> 00:44:38,014
Maybe you are listening in Hong Kong or

866
00:44:38,014 --> 00:44:41,494
Singapore or Taiwan, somewhere near that

867
00:44:41,494 --> 00:44:42,866
part of the world. Or maybe you're

868
00:44:42,866 --> 00:44:45,254
listening in Australia or the US or the UK

869
00:44:45,254 --> 00:44:47,206
or somewhere in Africa. We have a lot of

870
00:44:47,206 --> 00:44:49,990
you in Nigeria that listen, shout out to

871
00:44:49,990 --> 00:44:53,146
Nigeria. And I just want to say, wherever

872
00:44:53,146 --> 00:44:54,954
you are in the world, I really hope it

873
00:44:54,954 --> 00:44:57,914
came through just how vulnerable and raw

874
00:44:57,914 --> 00:45:00,794
that conversation was with Erin and how

875
00:45:00,794 --> 00:45:03,086
fragile it can feel when a faith community

876
00:45:03,086 --> 00:45:07,086
that has formed you and has meant so much

877
00:45:07,086 --> 00:45:13,022
to you has also caused so much pain. And,

878
00:45:13,022 --> 00:45:15,378
you know, the way that Erin can express

879
00:45:15,378 --> 00:45:18,242
some of that through her very creative,

880
00:45:18,242 --> 00:45:21,186
right brain, artistic ways is something

881
00:45:21,186 --> 00:45:24,386
that gives me so much hope. And it is such

882
00:45:24,386 --> 00:45:29,574
a path through feeling those hard feelings

883
00:45:29,574 --> 00:45:32,102
is the only way through them. To ignore

884
00:45:32,102 --> 00:45:34,946
them or pretend they don't exist, to not

885
00:45:34,946 --> 00:45:38,074
lament the pain and the suffering, to just

886
00:45:38,074 --> 00:45:42,666
want to only embrace the happy, good parts

887
00:45:42,666 --> 00:45:46,202
of the story. It's not serving any of us

888
00:45:46,202 --> 00:45:48,746
well. And I don't know what culture you

889
00:45:48,746 --> 00:45:51,434
have grown up in. If it was a culture that

890
00:45:51,434 --> 00:45:53,430
said, we don't speak these things out

891
00:45:53,430 --> 00:45:55,486
loud, we don't stir the pot, we don't rock

892
00:45:55,486 --> 00:45:57,374
the boat. A lot of different phrases I've

893
00:45:57,374 --> 00:45:59,418
heard out there. If that's the kind of

894
00:45:59,418 --> 00:46:01,086
culture and family you grew up in, I just

895
00:46:01,086 --> 00:46:04,318
want to say, listen to what Erin is

896
00:46:04,318 --> 00:46:06,510
saying. Maybe listen to this podcast

897
00:46:06,510 --> 00:46:08,226
another time. Maybe it was just kind of

898
00:46:08,226 --> 00:46:11,186
too much all at once. Listen to it in a

899
00:46:11,186 --> 00:46:12,914
way that you can understand. There are

900
00:46:12,914 --> 00:46:16,134
people like her showing us the way forward

901
00:46:16,134 --> 00:46:19,094
in their own ways and their own gifts. She

902
00:46:19,094 --> 00:46:21,570
has brought her gift of artistic

903
00:46:21,570 --> 00:46:24,194
expression into this world of trauma

904
00:46:24,194 --> 00:46:27,030
recovery, and it is such a beautiful

905
00:46:27,030 --> 00:46:30,130
thing. I'm so honored to just watch it

906
00:46:30,130 --> 00:46:32,118
unfold on social media. Seeing her murals

907
00:46:32,118 --> 00:46:33,770
that she paints, seeing her process

908
00:46:33,770 --> 00:46:35,174
sometimes that she shows us little

909
00:46:35,174 --> 00:46:37,226
glimpses into, and the way she has invited

910
00:46:37,226 --> 00:46:39,366
so many people to be a part of her A to Z

911
00:46:39,366 --> 00:46:43,470
trauma recovery sort of process that's

912
00:46:43,470 --> 00:46:48,506
very inclusive and so much diversity, and

913
00:46:48,506 --> 00:46:51,246
it's spaces like that, the reimagining of

914
00:46:51,246 --> 00:46:53,406
what it could be, the opening up our minds

915
00:46:53,406 --> 00:46:56,258
to say what if? Having conversations with

916
00:46:56,258 --> 00:46:59,618
others to come up with other ideas.

917
00:46:59,618 --> 00:47:01,538
Because what got us here isn't what is

918
00:47:01,538 --> 00:47:04,130
going to get us to the next level. We need

919
00:47:04,130 --> 00:47:06,530
new ways if what we've experienced has

920
00:47:06,530 --> 00:47:08,822
been full of suffering and pain and harm

921
00:47:08,822 --> 00:47:12,822
and abuse and trauma. So the things that

922
00:47:12,822 --> 00:47:15,366
have served us before, that caused us pain

923
00:47:15,366 --> 00:47:17,174
and suddenly didn't serve us anymore,

924
00:47:17,174 --> 00:47:19,718
cause us to have to rethink. And that's

925
00:47:19,718 --> 00:47:21,354
where we need this diversity of brains

926
00:47:21,354 --> 00:47:23,494
around the table people in Hong Kong with

927
00:47:23,494 --> 00:47:25,302
artistic capabilities who studied in

928
00:47:25,302 --> 00:47:28,534
London, right. And all different kinds of

929
00:47:28,534 --> 00:47:31,354
brains and perspectives that can help us

930
00:47:31,354 --> 00:47:34,202
know what it can look like together as we

931
00:47:34,202 --> 00:47:36,606
form a new path. I do have a lot of hope

932
00:47:36,606 --> 00:47:38,702
in what's happening in this generation of

933
00:47:38,702 --> 00:47:40,366
people who seem to be really trying to

934
00:47:40,366 --> 00:47:42,266
make a difference, and you're among them.

935
00:47:42,266 --> 00:47:44,586
You're listening to those podcasts because

936
00:47:44,586 --> 00:47:47,018
there's something inside you that wants to

937
00:47:47,018 --> 00:47:48,398
make the world a better place, whether

938
00:47:48,398 --> 00:47:51,314
it's a big or a small way. And absolutely

939
00:47:51,314 --> 00:47:53,486
do not recommend that you have any kind of

940
00:47:53,486 --> 00:47:55,394
grandiose dreams. But the reason we're all

941
00:47:55,394 --> 00:47:57,266
here together is because we can each bring

942
00:47:57,266 --> 00:47:59,526
our little part. And when we put each of

943
00:47:59,526 --> 00:48:02,066
our little puzzle pieces in the puzzle,

944
00:48:02,066 --> 00:48:03,686
suddenly you step back and there's a

945
00:48:03,686 --> 00:48:05,222
beautiful puzzle that's been built

946
00:48:05,222 --> 00:48:08,146
together with all of our little parts. And

947
00:48:08,146 --> 00:48:10,034
that's the beauty of the art that she's

948
00:48:10,034 --> 00:48:12,474
creating and inviting us all in to create

949
00:48:12,474 --> 00:48:15,094
with her. So I am not necessarily an

950
00:48:15,094 --> 00:48:17,674
artistic person, but I do want to lean

951
00:48:17,674 --> 00:48:20,042
more into the right brain activities that

952
00:48:20,042 --> 00:48:22,538
allow my brain and body and soul to kind

953
00:48:22,538 --> 00:48:23,958
of process some of the things that I went

954
00:48:23,958 --> 00:48:27,486
through. And it was in a trauma recovery

955
00:48:27,486 --> 00:48:29,806
situation in a group where I kind of got

956
00:48:29,806 --> 00:48:31,502
some crayons and a piece of paper and

957
00:48:31,502 --> 00:48:33,166
started doing some things that I realized,

958
00:48:33,166 --> 00:48:35,134
oh, there is some healing there, and it's

959
00:48:35,134 --> 00:48:37,838
something I don't do nearly enough. But

960
00:48:37,838 --> 00:48:39,618
this conversation with her was a reminder

961
00:48:39,618 --> 00:48:41,378
to me to kind of lean into that a little

962
00:48:41,378 --> 00:48:42,882
more. And I hope that you do, too,

963
00:48:42,882 --> 00:48:45,774
whatever that looks like for you. So, so

964
00:48:45,774 --> 00:48:47,266
grateful for Erin being on the show today,

965
00:48:47,266 --> 00:48:49,122
for being so vulnerable and sharing her

966
00:48:49,122 --> 00:48:52,098
story with us in the pain of it all,

967
00:48:52,098 --> 00:48:54,966
allowing us to hold both the beautiful and

968
00:48:54,966 --> 00:48:57,126
the terrible in two different hands and

969
00:48:57,126 --> 00:48:59,334
know that they're both there. And that's

970
00:48:59,334 --> 00:49:02,042
okay. And it's a way to honor her story

971
00:49:02,042 --> 00:49:05,046
together and our own. So check her out.

972
00:49:05,046 --> 00:49:07,670
We'll link her in the show notes. She's on

973
00:49:07,670 --> 00:49:09,418
Instagram where she posts her beautiful

974
00:49:09,418 --> 00:49:11,418
things, but we'll link her information in

975
00:49:11,418 --> 00:49:12,942
the show notes so you can continue to

976
00:49:12,942 --> 00:49:15,326
follow her work and maybe contribute to

977
00:49:15,326 --> 00:49:19,294
some of that a to z of trauma recovery

978
00:49:19,294 --> 00:49:21,006
piece that she's put out there that so

979
00:49:21,006 --> 00:49:23,962
many people have really benefited from and

980
00:49:23,962 --> 00:49:26,238
observed or taken part in. So I hope that

981
00:49:26,238 --> 00:49:29,726
you do, too. And as you do that, may the

982
00:49:29,726 --> 00:49:31,042
artistic expression, either that you

983
00:49:31,042 --> 00:49:32,866
create or that you observe, just help you

984
00:49:32,866 --> 00:49:34,898
to get to a place of finding more beauty

985
00:49:34,898 --> 00:49:37,254
in the world. And that beauty and joy

986
00:49:37,254 --> 00:49:39,574
bring a smile to your face and help you

987
00:49:39,574 --> 00:49:42,214
have a resilience to walk through the hard

988
00:49:42,214 --> 00:49:45,298
things. Because if we don't add in beauty,

989
00:49:45,298 --> 00:49:48,006
joy, hope, healing, and happiness in these

990
00:49:48,006 --> 00:49:50,086
kind of moments, it's just so much harder

991
00:49:50,086 --> 00:49:51,526
when we face the hard things, because we

992
00:49:51,526 --> 00:49:53,410
all face them. So that builds our

993
00:49:53,410 --> 00:49:55,126
resiliency to walk through the hard stuff.

994
00:49:55,126 --> 00:49:57,014
To continue to add that beauty into your

995
00:49:57,014 --> 00:49:59,602
life that you can celebrate. But do not

996
00:49:59,602 --> 00:50:02,158
neglect to knowledge that life is hard

997
00:50:02,158 --> 00:50:03,806
sometimes, and we need that beauty to help

998
00:50:03,806 --> 00:50:05,418
us walk through and hold it together.

999
00:50:05,418 --> 00:50:06,766
Erin's a great reminder of that. So glad

1000
00:50:06,766 --> 00:50:09,310
she was on the show today. And for all of

1001
00:50:09,310 --> 00:50:11,054
you, take a deep breath. If this was a

1002
00:50:11,054 --> 00:50:13,774
hard one, and it may have been for some of

1003
00:50:13,774 --> 00:50:15,486
you, and if it was, feel free to reach

1004
00:50:15,486 --> 00:50:18,126
out. I always like hearing from you, and I

1005
00:50:18,126 --> 00:50:20,126
just want to always remind you that you

1006
00:50:20,126 --> 00:50:21,674
matter and keep making a difference