Transcript
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Welcome to the World of Difference
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podcast. I'm Lori Adams Brown and this is
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a podcast for those who are different and
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want to make a difference. This podcast is
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sponsored by Betterhelp. If you are a
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person who really wants to understand what
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your strengths are, maybe you're not going
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through anything huge in your life.
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Therapy is not just for those who are in
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crisis, although it's definitely for that.
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But therapy is also a place where you're
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just stepping into your own skin, figuring
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out who you are, what it is you're
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offering to the world around us, and how
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you're making the world a better place.
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Betterhelp is here to help you with that,
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and I have really benefited by deep work,
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if you are a person who could benefit from
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10% off your first month today I'm so
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excited to get to interview today a friend
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through social media that we have followed
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each other for a while and done a lot of
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dming back and forth and we're finally
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making this podcast interview happen after
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just having to reschedule it a few times
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due know various things in our schedule,
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so I'm really excited to bring Erin on
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today. Erin Hung is an artist living in
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Hong Kong. Her practice spans illustration
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work, murals, community art and writing.
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She received her fine arts BA in Central
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St Men at BM Shaw School of Art and her MA
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in contemporary art and Sotheby's
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Institute, both in London. She has been in
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the art and design space for almost two
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decades, working with some of the biggest
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global brands in the UK and the US, such
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as Chronicle books, American Greetings,
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Liberty of London, and Selfridges. Having
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grown up in the evangelical faith, been
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deeply committed since turning 18 and
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going through two separate bouts of
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religiously traumatic events over the
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course of her adult life, she stepped back
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to evaluate some of the systemic patterns
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and cultures she was brought up in and
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ultimately discovering a beautifully
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spiritual connection between the innate
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creativity we are all born with and how we
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can enter its portal for healing and shift
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paradigms because we carry the imprint of
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creator. She started the social media
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movement A to Z of trauma recovery, which
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many of you listening were involved in
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calling on survivors and marginalized
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communities to process and heal creatively
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together. Erin's practice now centers
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around advocating for communities at the
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fringes and works with mental health
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organizations as well as NGOs such as
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UNHCR to elevate unheard voices. Erin is a
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beautiful soul. Her art is absolutely
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gorgeous and compelling and causes us to
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have all the feels. And she's such a smart
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and caring and just thoughtful human being
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that I am so honored to have on the show
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today. So a very warm welcome all the way
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in Hong Kong to Erin Hung. Hi, Erin.
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Thanks for calling in today from Hong
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Kong. And I just wanted to say happy Lunar
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New Year. Happy year of the dragon to you
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and your family. Hi, Lori. It's good to be
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here. I'm so excited to chat with you and,
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yeah, happy New Year to you, too. Well,
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today we're going to talk about some, all
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kinds of things because there's parts of
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your story and who you are as a person.
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We're going to weave in and out of those,
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but first, I just wanted to sort of
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connect with you around your own kind of
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backstory. Who are you as a person? And I
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know you live in Hong Kong now. Have you
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always lived there? What are the cultures
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and places that kind of formed you as a.
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Yeah, that's my identity, I feel is kind
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of been a mosaic of a lot of things. I was
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born and bred in Hong Kong in an
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evangelical family. So in my early
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childhood years, we were very firmly
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rooted in Hong Kong. I went to local
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school here. We would go to church and it
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would be chinese speaking. But really the
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background is because my parents, we are
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chinese, but my parents went to university
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in the UK. So then they kind of found the
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christian faith and they brought it back.
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And Hong Kong is an ex colony anyway, so
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there's a lot of crossover there in
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culture. And so growing up, we moved
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around quite a lot. My dad took a job in
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New York and we moved there when I was
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about ten. And then we came back and did a
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couple of years and then I went off to
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boarding school. A lot of kids do that,
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get sent off to boarding schools in the UK
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or in other parts of the world because it
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gave us better chance of going to
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university somewhere else. I've jumped
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around quite a bit and I've taken my faith
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with me in all the different places and
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experience them in different churches and
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settings and communities and people. And
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then all the while, I also have the other
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part of me, which is the creative, which
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is also a little bit of an, I guess,
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anomaly in my culture. I guess in my
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parents generation, people tend to go for
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the professions that are guaranteed like a
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good living and to break the cycle of
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poverty. So I think ours is probably the
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first generation where anybody had dared
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to think about pursuing a dream that is
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not completely stable in income or even
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just kind of dream about something else
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that's a little bit different from other
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people. So I guess that was sort of the
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tightrope that I walked with my creativity
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and my faith versus my culture. Yes. So in
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a nutshell, sorry, could you. Share with
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us a little about your journey into
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becoming both a muralist, an artist and an
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abuse advocate? Sort of what motivated you
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to pursue this really unique combination
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of passions? I don't really remember a
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time when I thought, oh, this is what I
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want to do. I think there were different
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instances, probably growing up that I
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thought, oh, I might pursue the arts, I
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might go in this direction, I might do
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illustration, because I think the arts is
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so diverse. And it was always catching my
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attention in different ways. But as a kid,
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I was always the one staring out the
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window. So I went to a local school with,
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it's very traditional in the sense that
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there's like 40 in a classroom. You're all
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facing forward and the teachers in the
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front, they're just speaking at you. And
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so it's very much about conformity, about
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just getting the test scores, about doing
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what you're told. Everyone has perfect
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uniforms. And it was very much that kind
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of school. And I was always that round,
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square peg, I suppose square peg in the
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round hole, always staring out the window,
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doodling on the side of my pages. And it
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was, I suppose, not only just frowned upon
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it, I think it was kind of like, well,
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there's something probably very wrong with
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this child. Why would she do that? And I
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think, looking back, it feels very
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outdated, this kind of thinking. But I
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think in our culture, there's still that
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thread of conformity that runs very
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strong, I suppose, in asian cultures. And
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there's often, like one right way of doing
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things. And often if you veer from that,
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you kind of catch unwanted attention. And
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so for me, like I said, it was kind of
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like a tightrope because I always wanted
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to have belonging, but then I wanted to be
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myself. And it was sort of like, oh, you
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fall on the left and then you kind of fall
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on the right, and the balance is really
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hard. Yeah. And I think that's been the
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same for my faith as well, because also
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faith was a very big part of my life. I
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found that this became sort of my
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identity. I kind of have to balance, I
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suppose, a very strong part of my artistic
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sensibility with fitting in and not making
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too much noise, feeling so much. Pressure
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to fit into your educational environment
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in a very specific way. Was that also the
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case in your faith community outside of
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your school system? And how did this sort
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of influence your faith community and your
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own upbringing in terms of feeling sort of
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like you didn't maybe fit in as an artist
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in a very strict and rigid school system
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where conformity was key? How did that
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impact you and your faith community in
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addition to what you were dealing with in
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school? Yeah, I think for sure chinese
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churches can bring. I mean, I think this
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goes for all cultures, right? You bring a
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lot of the cultural undertones into how
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you read the Bible and how the preaching
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is done and also how the church is set up.
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And so it just becomes the fabric of your
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faith. Right. It's kind of woven in. I
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suppose the thing is that I didn't really
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have the language for how that worked. So
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it was kind of like, well, that's just
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your way of being, right. It's like, this
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is the faith that looks similar to our
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culture, but what doesn't? Because you're
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swimming in the same water, you don't kind
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of pick it apart. But I think maybe for
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me, the difference is that because I've
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jumped around a bit and I've met a kind of
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diverse range of people, even in the
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christian faith over the years has caused
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me to wonder, like, oh, wait a second. But
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that's not how they would say, interpret
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the Bible, for example. So one of the
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strongest examples, I think, in chinese
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culture is Filio piety, which is like the
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sense of obedience to your elders, and
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it's very strong. Right. We were raised
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and brought up to kind of never talk back
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and always comply and agree because elders
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are always wiser and they have the best
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interest for you in mind. And so even if,
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let's say, if they'd done something
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blatantly wrong or had hurt you, you don't
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talk back and you don't tell them. You
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just obey what they say, even if it's
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something that you don't want to do,
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because you will be like, the honor toward
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your parents or your elders will be
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rewarded in some sort of way. That's just
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how the culture works. And then when it's
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your turn to become the elder, then you
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get to kind of take that position and you
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kind of take that for granted. Because I
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did. Because when I was growing up, the
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pastor at our church would be like, see,
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that's what it says in the Bible. Honor
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your mother and honor your parents. And
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this is what it means. And he would expand
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the whole kind of culture piece into that
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one commandment, right? And then I went to
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school in London, and we did Bible
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studies, like, oh, wait a second. No,
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that's kind of like crossing the line. And
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there are things that you have to
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consider, like, what if what your parents
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are asking to do is not what God wants you
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to do? That would be an example of how we
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weave these culture pieces into the way we
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read scriptures. And then later on, I
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would discover that, oh, maybe there are
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other ways to read and other ways to be
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that's not absolute. What do you think it
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means currently? What was your experience
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around any of the theological conversation
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around decolonizing the scriptures? So in
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the sense that some of the scriptures in
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certain countries were brought in by
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westerners and then translated into local
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languages, Mandarin, for example, or any
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other language, Spanish, being brought by
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sort of also some colonizers, and having
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to decolonize the scriptures in order to
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understand them in a more ancient context.
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In light of what it means to be chinese,
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how has that conversation been a part of
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your own faith experience in recent years,
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or has that been part of your experience?
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Yes, I suppose it's very much woven into
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our culture as well then, that we look at
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our entire identity as being colonized.
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But for us, it's kind of a long and hard
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journey to even come to that place to be
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like, oh, yeah, I was colonized in that
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sense because growing up, you have the
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sense that you're a colonizer. So, for
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example, foreigners in Hong Kong or expats
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are superior, especially, I think, in the
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earlier days, like in the, you know, they
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kind of congregate around the nicer parts
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of town, and foreigners might take a
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chinese spouse, or it's usually like a
299
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chinese wife, and there would be this
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dynamic, like, then I'm going to say wife,
301
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because that's actually the more common
302
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way it happens, is that then the wife gets
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kind of like a bump in social status, and
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then I think the locals then would talk
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about them in a sense that now she's too
306
00:15:56,126 --> 00:15:58,638
good for us. So there's always this sense
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of, like, you kind of want to be like
308
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them, but you kind of have also this
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burning kind of jealousy as well, and it's
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ingrained into our culture. And like I
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think I said before I moved abroad or had
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a kind of look at how they studied
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history. And in art school, I studied, for
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example, things like orientalism. It was
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00:16:33,274 --> 00:16:35,914
hard for me to put a finger on why things
316
00:16:35,914 --> 00:16:38,826
were the way they were because I swam in
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00:16:38,826 --> 00:16:42,574
the water. Do you know what I mean? It's
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just part of the way the world is. But
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00:16:46,942 --> 00:16:49,966
having that broader picture of, oh, this
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is what happened in history, and this is
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00:16:51,918 --> 00:16:55,454
why people behave this way. And for a
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collectivist culture, it's very much kind
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of like, well, this is how we think. So
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there's no way of kind of disentangling
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00:17:01,714 --> 00:17:09,506
from that. And so after having that
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broader world sense worldview, it was
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00:17:14,242 --> 00:17:19,754
easier to disentangle and have a look at
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where did I come from and why the dynamics
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are the way they are. And of course,
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00:17:24,726 --> 00:17:27,910
there's, like a growing global
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conversation as well around the idea of
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colonization. For example, you watch the
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00:17:36,430 --> 00:17:40,606
Olympics, I think it was four years ago or
334
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eight years ago, the queen was sitting
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there and there were these, you know,
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like, waving their flags, and you're kind
337
00:17:45,554 --> 00:17:51,266
of like, are we still in those times? Is
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00:17:51,266 --> 00:17:53,474
it still okay to talk about it like this?
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And the conversation is still kind of
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developing, I think, especially for our
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part of the world. I think it's because
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00:18:07,978 --> 00:18:13,766
there are a lot of factors as to why we
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00:18:13,766 --> 00:18:16,998
don't talk so much about it here or that
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00:18:16,998 --> 00:18:18,874
we're kind of so entrenched in some of
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these ways because of, obviously, the pain
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that it brings up. Right. The trauma and
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00:18:24,526 --> 00:18:26,782
the pain within families that get passed
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00:18:26,782 --> 00:18:29,226
down, and we kind of just take things for
349
00:18:29,226 --> 00:18:35,742
granted that that's the way it is or that
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there's also that sense of the shame
351
00:18:38,862 --> 00:18:41,406
culture that we have very much here.
352
00:18:41,406 --> 00:18:47,254
That's a very big piece of, like, if you
353
00:18:47,254 --> 00:18:51,778
talk about things that are taboo or
354
00:18:51,778 --> 00:18:53,970
unpleasant and it makes other people
355
00:18:53,970 --> 00:18:56,018
uncomfortable, you kind of bring shame
356
00:18:56,018 --> 00:18:59,114
onto yourself and your family. So it's not
357
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even just like, oh, if I'm talking. So
358
00:19:02,140 --> 00:19:05,114
actually, for me to come onto a podcast
359
00:19:05,114 --> 00:19:09,078
and talk about things like this, I suppose
360
00:19:09,078 --> 00:19:14,670
it's not, like, unheard of, but I think
361
00:19:14,670 --> 00:19:17,486
people do still kind of cringe a little
362
00:19:17,486 --> 00:19:19,214
bit or get goosebumps, like, why would you
363
00:19:19,214 --> 00:19:24,814
do that? Because it's not just me. If I
364
00:19:24,814 --> 00:19:27,118
came on and I talked about what happened
365
00:19:27,118 --> 00:19:30,098
to me when I was a child and all the pain
366
00:19:30,098 --> 00:19:32,210
and the trauma in the family. I'm actually
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00:19:32,210 --> 00:19:34,046
quite happy as a person to do that because
368
00:19:34,046 --> 00:19:37,510
I'm an open book. But I think for other
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00:19:37,510 --> 00:19:41,506
people they might be like, oh, I'm kind of
370
00:19:41,506 --> 00:19:42,982
associated with that now because I'm her
371
00:19:42,982 --> 00:19:44,754
friend or I'm her family. So that the
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00:19:44,754 --> 00:19:46,786
shame is like, is like transferred because
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we're collective. So there's a lot to sort
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of decolonize in that sense. And I think
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00:19:56,954 --> 00:19:59,290
we haven't even touched on the faith piece
376
00:19:59,290 --> 00:20:02,126
yet because it kind of just bleeds into
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00:20:02,126 --> 00:20:04,174
each other. I think when we talk about,
378
00:20:04,174 --> 00:20:08,574
for example, things like church abuse or
379
00:20:08,574 --> 00:20:11,674
so and so's pastor, that ties into the
380
00:20:11,674 --> 00:20:13,610
filio piety piece, like the submission
381
00:20:13,610 --> 00:20:16,722
piece and the shame piece, a lot of it is.
382
00:20:16,722 --> 00:20:18,846
Then everything just kind of locks in
383
00:20:18,846 --> 00:20:21,826
silence because it's better to just sweep
384
00:20:21,826 --> 00:20:27,010
it under the rug and bypass it, and it's
385
00:20:27,010 --> 00:20:33,206
easier to live in existence like that. I
386
00:20:33,206 --> 00:20:35,462
hope I've described a little bit of what
387
00:20:35,462 --> 00:20:38,522
it, I suppose, like what it feels like and
388
00:20:38,522 --> 00:20:45,386
what it is to be like in this situation.
389
00:20:45,386 --> 00:20:49,510
Because I suppose in the discussions of
390
00:20:49,510 --> 00:20:51,534
colonization or decolonization, we know
391
00:20:51,534 --> 00:20:55,086
how the mechanism works. But, yeah, this
392
00:20:55,086 --> 00:20:56,986
is kind of me describing to you what it
393
00:20:56,986 --> 00:21:00,590
feels like or to be in a situation that is
394
00:21:00,590 --> 00:21:05,134
currently still ongoing. Yeah, ongoing and
395
00:21:05,134 --> 00:21:07,586
multilayered. And I just really appreciate
396
00:21:07,586 --> 00:21:09,918
your voice. I'm learning so much from your
397
00:21:09,918 --> 00:21:11,618
perspective. I also appreciate your art
398
00:21:11,618 --> 00:21:14,866
and how you're expressing all of this. Dig
399
00:21:14,866 --> 00:21:17,986
us in a little deeper into what is
400
00:21:17,986 --> 00:21:21,522
unpacking all of this, like, for you.
401
00:21:21,522 --> 00:21:23,254
Honestly, I think in the beginning it
402
00:21:23,254 --> 00:21:26,840
really was just a part of my healing.
403
00:21:26,840 --> 00:21:32,982
Right. When we left our previous church, I
404
00:21:32,982 --> 00:21:36,406
genuinely just had lost all my coping
405
00:21:36,406 --> 00:21:41,274
mechanisms of. I couldn't pray, I couldn't
406
00:21:41,274 --> 00:21:44,246
open the bible and read something without
407
00:21:44,246 --> 00:21:45,598
wanting to rip it into stress. I don't
408
00:21:45,598 --> 00:21:48,094
know if it's okay to say, but it's like.
409
00:21:48,094 --> 00:21:49,886
Because if something that has been so good
410
00:21:49,886 --> 00:21:53,566
all your life had been then used to almost
411
00:21:53,566 --> 00:21:57,122
like, be used to death, it becomes this
412
00:21:57,122 --> 00:22:00,274
thing that is a giant monster. You don't
413
00:22:00,274 --> 00:22:04,114
know when it's going to jump out and rip
414
00:22:04,114 --> 00:22:06,946
your face off. Sorry, that is a very
415
00:22:06,946 --> 00:22:09,926
graphic picture. But I think it really was
416
00:22:09,926 --> 00:22:14,566
in those first couple of months, just. I
417
00:22:14,566 --> 00:22:20,234
was stuck in this fight or flight mode,
418
00:22:20,234 --> 00:22:22,890
actually. I was frozen. I was totally
419
00:22:22,890 --> 00:22:27,274
frozen. And it felt so hopeless because,
420
00:22:27,274 --> 00:22:28,906
yeah, like I said, right? Like before I
421
00:22:28,906 --> 00:22:30,974
could have just listened to a worship song
422
00:22:30,974 --> 00:22:33,274
or I could have prayed and I would have
423
00:22:33,274 --> 00:22:37,710
felt better, but I had pretty much, like
424
00:22:37,710 --> 00:22:44,514
nothing to turn to. And then it's not
425
00:22:44,514 --> 00:22:46,626
really something that I could just go and
426
00:22:46,626 --> 00:22:49,506
call up a friend about, because I think if
427
00:22:49,506 --> 00:22:54,770
you haven't experienced it, it's very hard
428
00:22:54,770 --> 00:22:57,270
to come alongside someone who's like.
429
00:22:57,270 --> 00:22:59,106
Because I think for other people, it
430
00:22:59,106 --> 00:23:02,790
threatens their sense of spirituality or
431
00:23:02,790 --> 00:23:09,814
identity. I think one day, I don't even
432
00:23:09,814 --> 00:23:13,066
remember how I started, but I spot,
433
00:23:13,066 --> 00:23:15,994
because I have a lot of art supplies in my
434
00:23:15,994 --> 00:23:17,946
house, and I'm a bit of a hoarder when it
435
00:23:17,946 --> 00:23:21,386
comes to art supplies. So I had this
436
00:23:21,386 --> 00:23:22,974
massive basket of yarn, and I just
437
00:23:22,974 --> 00:23:26,654
thought, oh, maybe I'll just do something
438
00:23:26,654 --> 00:23:31,802
with it. Because I grew up with this
439
00:23:31,802 --> 00:23:33,374
discipline of, like, you must wake up
440
00:23:33,374 --> 00:23:35,198
every day and do your quiet time. And then
441
00:23:35,198 --> 00:23:37,186
all of a sudden, it was gone. Right. There
442
00:23:37,186 --> 00:23:39,726
was nothing to ground me in the day that I
443
00:23:39,726 --> 00:23:42,366
felt like I wanted to go forward, and I
444
00:23:42,366 --> 00:23:45,486
felt I wanted to be connected to myself in
445
00:23:45,486 --> 00:23:47,346
some sense, but I didn't really have the
446
00:23:47,346 --> 00:23:49,494
tools anymore. So then I thought, oh,
447
00:23:49,494 --> 00:23:53,206
maybe if I started weaving or doing
448
00:23:53,206 --> 00:23:56,854
something, that it would help me process
449
00:23:56,854 --> 00:24:00,726
my thoughts. So I took this big bit of
450
00:24:00,726 --> 00:24:02,442
rope, and I was, like, wrapping yarn
451
00:24:02,442 --> 00:24:04,106
around it, and actually, I could show you
452
00:24:04,106 --> 00:24:08,780
a picture if you want. And I had all these
453
00:24:08,780 --> 00:24:11,174
different colors of yarn that I was
454
00:24:11,174 --> 00:24:12,522
wrapping. Like, I would do, like, one
455
00:24:12,522 --> 00:24:13,678
color, and then I would stop, and I would
456
00:24:13,678 --> 00:24:16,426
do another color. And I felt better, but I
457
00:24:16,426 --> 00:24:20,106
didn't quite know why. But then, because I
458
00:24:20,106 --> 00:24:22,506
felt better, I just kept doing it. And I
459
00:24:22,506 --> 00:24:25,154
felt like it was a way that I was like,
460
00:24:25,154 --> 00:24:26,962
okay, I'm not praying because I'm not
461
00:24:26,962 --> 00:24:29,438
saying, like, oh, heavenly father, blah,
462
00:24:29,438 --> 00:24:32,530
blah, blah, blah, blah. But I felt like,
463
00:24:32,530 --> 00:24:34,914
within myself, like maybe my soul, it was
464
00:24:34,914 --> 00:24:37,150
like something was being worked out. So I
465
00:24:37,150 --> 00:24:39,062
was like, okay, well, I will just keep
466
00:24:39,062 --> 00:24:43,170
doing that. So then these yarn things
467
00:24:43,170 --> 00:24:46,342
became super long because I just kept
468
00:24:46,342 --> 00:24:49,306
doing it. And I would wrap them up in
469
00:24:49,306 --> 00:24:51,706
these coils, and they became what I would
470
00:24:51,706 --> 00:24:57,786
call, like, my prayer circles. And then,
471
00:24:57,786 --> 00:25:01,354
of course, I was reading literature around
472
00:25:01,354 --> 00:25:05,322
therapy practices and stuff. So I kind of
473
00:25:05,322 --> 00:25:07,022
understood that it was somatic, like, it
474
00:25:07,022 --> 00:25:09,694
was something that my body was working
475
00:25:09,694 --> 00:25:13,186
out. And my husband's also a therapist, so
476
00:25:13,186 --> 00:25:16,818
he understands that. So he was explaining
477
00:25:16,818 --> 00:25:20,302
to me that your body traps a lot of the
478
00:25:20,302 --> 00:25:23,138
tension of what happened. And maybe
479
00:25:23,138 --> 00:25:28,146
sometimes words can't express exactly your
480
00:25:28,146 --> 00:25:29,442
thoughts and feelings because your mind
481
00:25:29,442 --> 00:25:30,934
doesn't quite understand it yet, but your
482
00:25:30,934 --> 00:25:34,038
body knows, so it's working through
483
00:25:34,038 --> 00:25:36,934
something. So then I kind of just tapped
484
00:25:36,934 --> 00:25:38,726
into it. When I tapped into it, I just
485
00:25:38,726 --> 00:25:40,026
thought, well, I'll just lean right into
486
00:25:40,026 --> 00:25:42,214
it. I think that it's part of also my
487
00:25:42,214 --> 00:25:44,394
personality is that if I find something
488
00:25:44,394 --> 00:25:47,180
that works, I'm just going to go, like,
489
00:25:47,180 --> 00:25:53,886
200%. So then I just thought, okay, well,
490
00:25:53,886 --> 00:25:56,734
the next thing I did was I wanted to do
491
00:25:56,734 --> 00:25:58,670
some gardening. And I felt like, I think
492
00:25:58,670 --> 00:26:00,334
basically it was just answering whatever
493
00:26:00,334 --> 00:26:03,442
my body told me to say, like, okay, this
494
00:26:03,442 --> 00:26:07,330
is something that would maybe make me feel
495
00:26:07,330 --> 00:26:10,366
better, so I'll go and do it. And, I mean,
496
00:26:10,366 --> 00:26:12,398
thankfully, it wasn't something that was
497
00:26:12,398 --> 00:26:15,426
totally, totally unhealthy or harmful, but
498
00:26:15,426 --> 00:26:17,046
I know that it was probably something that
499
00:26:17,046 --> 00:26:20,454
was going to help me. That's why. So then
500
00:26:20,454 --> 00:26:23,202
I started gardening and tending to my
501
00:26:23,202 --> 00:26:26,358
plants, and it also was very therapeutic
502
00:26:26,358 --> 00:26:29,674
in the way that then I felt like I was
503
00:26:29,674 --> 00:26:37,994
being taken care of back then. I still had
504
00:26:37,994 --> 00:26:41,902
this language of like, oh, maybe God is
505
00:26:41,902 --> 00:26:44,654
talking to me through this way and helping
506
00:26:44,654 --> 00:26:48,526
me realize that, for example, the trees
507
00:26:48,526 --> 00:26:53,266
are resilient and that I can be, too. Even
508
00:26:53,266 --> 00:26:55,458
if you bury a seed and it's gone and it's
509
00:26:55,458 --> 00:26:57,794
in darkness, like, it could rise again. I
510
00:26:57,794 --> 00:27:03,090
was kind of being spoken to, or like I had
511
00:27:03,090 --> 00:27:11,542
these revelations or ideas through the act
512
00:27:11,542 --> 00:27:13,960
of creativity or doing something with my
513
00:27:13,960 --> 00:27:18,870
hands. And so that's kind of how it all
514
00:27:18,870 --> 00:27:21,586
began. Then I just thought, well, if it
515
00:27:21,586 --> 00:27:23,786
was. If it was something inside of me that
516
00:27:23,786 --> 00:27:29,866
was helping me kind of heal, then I will
517
00:27:29,866 --> 00:27:33,946
not reject that, because I feel like maybe
518
00:27:33,946 --> 00:27:37,326
that's part of the design of who I am. And
519
00:27:37,326 --> 00:27:39,262
if it was the part of the design of who I
520
00:27:39,262 --> 00:27:41,662
am, then maybe it could be for other
521
00:27:41,662 --> 00:27:45,858
people, too. That is truly beautiful about
522
00:27:45,858 --> 00:27:48,450
just knowing how you were healing. I can
523
00:27:48,450 --> 00:27:50,994
just imagine it in my mind, picture it,
524
00:27:50,994 --> 00:27:54,818
and of course, it helps others heal. I
525
00:27:54,818 --> 00:27:57,398
mean, this is the nature of what I think a
526
00:27:57,398 --> 00:28:00,406
lot of us don't instinctively understand.
527
00:28:00,406 --> 00:28:03,990
I certainly didn't until I was involved in
528
00:28:03,990 --> 00:28:07,138
watching the trauma recovery after tsunami
529
00:28:07,138 --> 00:28:09,990
relief in Indonesia and realizing how
530
00:28:09,990 --> 00:28:12,246
important the right brain is in that
531
00:28:12,246 --> 00:28:13,926
trauma healing. And then when I pursued a
532
00:28:13,926 --> 00:28:15,962
trauma informed certification, that was a
533
00:28:15,962 --> 00:28:18,426
real key element of the healing process
534
00:28:18,426 --> 00:28:20,346
from trauma is right brain activities. So
535
00:28:20,346 --> 00:28:22,154
there you are knitting, there you are
536
00:28:22,154 --> 00:28:24,526
using your hands, this very somatic body
537
00:28:24,526 --> 00:28:27,226
work. It does help all of us, and you're
538
00:28:27,226 --> 00:28:29,806
showing us how. But I'd love for you to
539
00:28:29,806 --> 00:28:33,598
give us a little more about you and your
540
00:28:33,598 --> 00:28:35,726
own sort of spiritual abuse that you've
541
00:28:35,726 --> 00:28:38,814
walked through. Tell us about those
542
00:28:38,814 --> 00:28:41,278
moments that you have experienced and what
543
00:28:41,278 --> 00:28:43,826
that's been like for you. I don't know if
544
00:28:43,826 --> 00:28:47,474
there is one single moment again I think
545
00:28:47,474 --> 00:28:51,414
because I grew up in the faith, and quite
546
00:28:51,414 --> 00:28:53,830
early on, I think when I was 21, I'd
547
00:28:53,830 --> 00:28:58,766
already had my first experience of it. My
548
00:28:58,766 --> 00:29:01,414
pastor back then had shamed me from the
549
00:29:01,414 --> 00:29:05,866
pulpit and called me a know it all for
550
00:29:05,866 --> 00:29:08,426
some reason, because I think I was a girl
551
00:29:08,426 --> 00:29:10,762
and I was quite outspoken about some
552
00:29:10,762 --> 00:29:12,886
things I didn't agree with. And I. It
553
00:29:12,886 --> 00:29:15,870
wasn't like I was disrespectful or
554
00:29:15,870 --> 00:29:17,278
anything, but I think in his eyes, he's
555
00:29:17,278 --> 00:29:18,814
kind of like, how dare you? Who do you
556
00:29:18,814 --> 00:29:21,886
think you are? You're this very young. How
557
00:29:21,886 --> 00:29:25,950
old are you? 21. And you didn't go to
558
00:29:25,950 --> 00:29:27,778
seminary? How dare you kind of take me on
559
00:29:27,778 --> 00:29:31,938
and kind of taken a while anyways to kind
560
00:29:31,938 --> 00:29:35,758
of silence me. I was told to not be a know
561
00:29:35,758 --> 00:29:38,806
it all, and he said it from the pulpit, so
562
00:29:38,806 --> 00:29:42,966
other people knew it, too. And I carried
563
00:29:42,966 --> 00:29:45,730
that with me because obviously it was
564
00:29:45,730 --> 00:29:47,974
devastating to kind of like, you kind of
565
00:29:47,974 --> 00:29:51,594
were like, what just happened? You kind of
566
00:29:51,594 --> 00:29:57,900
look around and the shock of it is like.
567
00:29:57,900 --> 00:30:01,146
And I carried that around with me because
568
00:30:01,146 --> 00:30:04,506
I knew that what he did was not okay. But
569
00:30:04,506 --> 00:30:05,806
somehow there was still a part of me, and
570
00:30:05,806 --> 00:30:07,550
I think that it was also other people
571
00:30:07,550 --> 00:30:10,478
around me, probably. I don't remember very
572
00:30:10,478 --> 00:30:14,026
much that were saying, but maybe you
573
00:30:14,026 --> 00:30:16,402
didn't deal with it in the best way, or
574
00:30:16,402 --> 00:30:17,970
maybe it was that you were not in a
575
00:30:17,970 --> 00:30:20,194
position to saying anything. Maybe it was
576
00:30:20,194 --> 00:30:24,178
that you needed to wait until you had a
577
00:30:24,178 --> 00:30:27,426
position of trust in his inner circle.
578
00:30:27,426 --> 00:30:30,486
Then you could have said something. And so
579
00:30:30,486 --> 00:30:31,958
I carried that around with me because it
580
00:30:31,958 --> 00:30:33,766
was like, well, I know that what he did
581
00:30:33,766 --> 00:30:36,342
was not right, but maybe I had a part to
582
00:30:36,342 --> 00:30:41,002
play in it. And then not five years later,
583
00:30:41,002 --> 00:30:43,306
maybe seven. Five, seven years later, we
584
00:30:43,306 --> 00:30:45,050
were in London. So this is completely
585
00:30:45,050 --> 00:30:47,690
different setting, completely different
586
00:30:47,690 --> 00:30:52,186
church back then, my husband's best man,
587
00:30:52,186 --> 00:30:57,130
we were in this just very low anglican
588
00:30:57,130 --> 00:30:59,870
church, and it was Bible believing, and
589
00:30:59,870 --> 00:31:03,034
everything was about the Bible, and they
590
00:31:03,034 --> 00:31:06,062
spoke in tongues, so they wanted to tell
591
00:31:06,062 --> 00:31:09,394
people about it, and they wanted to kind
592
00:31:09,394 --> 00:31:11,314
of explore that on their own. And they
593
00:31:11,314 --> 00:31:13,266
were barred from going into service one
594
00:31:13,266 --> 00:31:14,782
day. Like, all of a sudden, they were
595
00:31:14,782 --> 00:31:16,680
barred. They were like, don't come in,
596
00:31:16,680 --> 00:31:19,542
because who knows what you might teach
597
00:31:19,542 --> 00:31:23,320
other people? And we just kind of watched
598
00:31:23,320 --> 00:31:26,054
them do that. Right? And it was kind of
599
00:31:26,054 --> 00:31:28,114
also the trauma, I think you call it
600
00:31:28,114 --> 00:31:29,174
vicarious trauma, because you're just
601
00:31:29,174 --> 00:31:32,054
watching it happen and you can't
602
00:31:32,054 --> 00:31:33,834
verbalize, like, what's wrong, because the
603
00:31:33,834 --> 00:31:35,814
power dynamic dynamics is like, well, I
604
00:31:35,814 --> 00:31:37,786
can't say anything it's very hard. But we
605
00:31:37,786 --> 00:31:41,882
did end up leaving with our friends. So
606
00:31:41,882 --> 00:31:44,974
then it was almost like, well, you go to
607
00:31:44,974 --> 00:31:46,414
one church and that happens. You go to
608
00:31:46,414 --> 00:31:48,206
another one and that happens, and you put
609
00:31:48,206 --> 00:31:51,934
these little pieces together and you don't
610
00:31:51,934 --> 00:31:53,966
quite know because people always say, no,
611
00:31:53,966 --> 00:31:58,126
church is perfect, and don't expect your
612
00:31:58,126 --> 00:32:01,406
pastor to be perfect. And you should
613
00:32:01,406 --> 00:32:02,706
examine your heart as well. Like, where
614
00:32:02,706 --> 00:32:05,566
have you gone wrong? And that whole
615
00:32:05,566 --> 00:32:15,410
gaslighting piece. And it really was
616
00:32:15,410 --> 00:32:18,600
therapy that helped me put all the pieces
617
00:32:18,600 --> 00:32:21,786
together, because concurrently, I started
618
00:32:21,786 --> 00:32:24,346
going to therapy for some just unrelated.
619
00:32:24,346 --> 00:32:26,186
It wasn't really even about church. It was
620
00:32:26,186 --> 00:32:28,426
just about I wanted to work through some
621
00:32:28,426 --> 00:32:33,086
of my childhood stuff. I just had a baby.
622
00:32:33,086 --> 00:32:36,702
I had postnatal depression. I just wanted
623
00:32:36,702 --> 00:32:40,826
to, you know, like it was for me. But I
624
00:32:40,826 --> 00:32:42,954
learned to put language to a lot of the
625
00:32:42,954 --> 00:32:46,946
dynamics that are not healthy in my life,
626
00:32:46,946 --> 00:32:52,526
in my family of origin, in our culture. I
627
00:32:52,526 --> 00:32:54,258
learned to kind of dissect it in a way
628
00:32:54,258 --> 00:32:56,226
that was like, okay, you jump out of it,
629
00:32:56,226 --> 00:32:58,966
and then you pull user threads apart and
630
00:32:58,966 --> 00:33:03,826
you look at what's pulling at what and how
631
00:33:03,826 --> 00:33:06,546
that's affecting the different parts. I
632
00:33:06,546 --> 00:33:08,566
learned to kind of look at things that way
633
00:33:08,566 --> 00:33:10,218
as opposed to just like, oh, that's just
634
00:33:10,218 --> 00:33:14,618
the way it is. Or the Bible says before we
635
00:33:14,618 --> 00:33:16,186
just kind of bypass everything with like,
636
00:33:16,186 --> 00:33:19,898
oh, the Bible says this, or God says, it's
637
00:33:19,898 --> 00:33:21,440
going to be okay, so it's going to be
638
00:33:21,440 --> 00:33:25,310
okay. But, yeah, so that's when I kind of
639
00:33:25,310 --> 00:33:30,942
started to have language. And as things
640
00:33:30,942 --> 00:33:34,946
went on, and I think perhaps it culminated
641
00:33:34,946 --> 00:33:38,706
in a way where in this previous church,
642
00:33:38,706 --> 00:33:46,886
the last one that I had been to, I was in
643
00:33:46,886 --> 00:33:49,798
a position of, in my first experience, I
644
00:33:49,798 --> 00:33:52,386
was like, well, who am I to say anything?
645
00:33:52,386 --> 00:33:55,734
I'm just this young little girl who nobody
646
00:33:55,734 --> 00:34:00,394
has any respect for. I was already on the
647
00:34:00,394 --> 00:34:02,490
board of directors in my previous church,
648
00:34:02,490 --> 00:34:06,550
and I was serving, like, in multiple
649
00:34:06,550 --> 00:34:09,420
ministries. And I felt like, well, maybe I
650
00:34:09,420 --> 00:34:13,134
had the ear of somebody who would, who
651
00:34:13,134 --> 00:34:16,686
would listen to me if I was speaking up
652
00:34:16,686 --> 00:34:19,774
for the vulnerable or if somebody was
653
00:34:19,774 --> 00:34:21,742
getting hurt and nobody wanted to listen.
654
00:34:21,742 --> 00:34:24,500
Maybe I had an ear to somebody who would
655
00:34:24,500 --> 00:34:28,402
listen and trust me enough to do something
656
00:34:28,402 --> 00:34:32,626
about it. But it turns out that I think
657
00:34:32,626 --> 00:34:34,370
when I just kind of found out the hard
658
00:34:34,370 --> 00:34:36,626
way, because I carried it with me for so
659
00:34:36,626 --> 00:34:38,046
long, I just thought, oh, maybe it was my
660
00:34:38,046 --> 00:34:40,054
fault. Like, I'd just spoken out of turn.
661
00:34:40,054 --> 00:34:41,702
But it wasn't that I had spoken out of
662
00:34:41,702 --> 00:34:43,800
turn, because even if you were in a
663
00:34:43,800 --> 00:34:47,834
position of influence, even if you had the
664
00:34:47,834 --> 00:34:50,810
trust in the ear of somebody who in
665
00:34:50,810 --> 00:34:54,986
leadership, when the cards get revealed on
666
00:34:54,986 --> 00:34:59,862
the table, it was still that, well, we
667
00:34:59,862 --> 00:35:02,702
still protect the leadership. We still
668
00:35:02,702 --> 00:35:06,106
protect our own. We still kind of, like,
669
00:35:06,106 --> 00:35:09,866
shun out the anomaly because they
670
00:35:09,866 --> 00:35:12,586
contaminate the batch, right? And I think
671
00:35:12,586 --> 00:35:15,294
that's when I realized that, oh, it
672
00:35:15,294 --> 00:35:17,010
doesn't actually matter. It doesn't
673
00:35:17,010 --> 00:35:21,070
actually matter where I'm standing. And I
674
00:35:21,070 --> 00:35:23,186
spent maybe the last 1015 years trying to
675
00:35:23,186 --> 00:35:25,314
make a difference, because I felt like if
676
00:35:25,314 --> 00:35:27,366
only I was doing better, if only I was
677
00:35:27,366 --> 00:35:31,666
more trustworthy, if only I had all the
678
00:35:31,666 --> 00:35:35,446
credentials that you needed, then I could
679
00:35:35,446 --> 00:35:37,686
maybe get your heart to break for some of
680
00:35:37,686 --> 00:35:40,762
the things that I felt like God was
681
00:35:40,762 --> 00:35:44,426
putting online, but it wasn't the case.
682
00:35:44,426 --> 00:35:46,358
And I think that's when I started to
683
00:35:46,358 --> 00:35:49,098
examine why that was. And then back then,
684
00:35:49,098 --> 00:35:51,066
it was about two and a half years ago, so
685
00:35:51,066 --> 00:35:52,878
there was all this literature that was on
686
00:35:52,878 --> 00:35:56,206
the brink of coming out. And so it was
687
00:35:56,206 --> 00:35:59,226
very timely, because once I started
688
00:35:59,226 --> 00:36:01,470
opening, I think the first one was Wade
689
00:36:01,470 --> 00:36:04,606
Mullins. When our citizen comes to church,
690
00:36:04,606 --> 00:36:11,086
it's like, oh, okay, I get it now. It
691
00:36:11,086 --> 00:36:15,334
tells me this systemic story of why we are
692
00:36:15,334 --> 00:36:20,934
here today. And my kind of faith journey
693
00:36:20,934 --> 00:36:22,694
has kind of just been the playing out of
694
00:36:22,694 --> 00:36:25,350
the different parts of what he's
695
00:36:25,350 --> 00:36:30,170
describing. So, no, there was not one
696
00:36:30,170 --> 00:36:34,474
moment, but all these little things that
697
00:36:34,474 --> 00:36:40,630
kind of were puzzle pieces for me. So
698
00:36:40,630 --> 00:36:42,494
heartbreaking. I hate that you had to go
699
00:36:42,494 --> 00:36:47,066
through that. And yet you talked about
700
00:36:47,066 --> 00:36:48,862
wanting to make a difference and trying so
701
00:36:48,862 --> 00:36:51,658
hard and doing all the things. And now
702
00:36:51,658 --> 00:36:54,126
you're bringing your uniqueness of the way
703
00:36:54,126 --> 00:36:56,114
that you're making a difference through
704
00:36:56,114 --> 00:36:58,882
art, through your voice, help us
705
00:36:58,882 --> 00:37:02,386
understand a little more about your art,
706
00:37:02,386 --> 00:37:04,066
what it means, what it means to you, and
707
00:37:04,066 --> 00:37:06,374
how it's making a difference for others as
708
00:37:06,374 --> 00:37:08,680
they heal and process all these things,
709
00:37:08,680 --> 00:37:14,130
too. For me, I think, because I'm an
710
00:37:14,130 --> 00:37:17,954
anagram four. So I always look for
711
00:37:17,954 --> 00:37:19,954
meanings and things. And one of the
712
00:37:19,954 --> 00:37:21,766
biggest question, I think, one of my fears
713
00:37:21,766 --> 00:37:25,320
is that, what if I go away one day or die,
714
00:37:25,320 --> 00:37:29,686
and I've not left my mark in the world? So
715
00:37:29,686 --> 00:37:31,726
one of the. The things that I always ask
716
00:37:31,726 --> 00:37:34,766
is, like, why am I this way? Why did God
717
00:37:34,766 --> 00:37:37,198
make me this way? Why am I designed this
718
00:37:37,198 --> 00:37:41,274
way? And with art and creativity and
719
00:37:41,274 --> 00:37:45,938
healing, I feel like I was able to put all
720
00:37:45,938 --> 00:37:51,822
the pieces together. So when I was kind of
721
00:37:51,822 --> 00:37:56,390
devastated with this whole. With the
722
00:37:56,390 --> 00:37:59,174
trauma, I felt that with creativity, it
723
00:37:59,174 --> 00:38:02,598
was the one thing that I wanted to do that
724
00:38:02,598 --> 00:38:11,850
could heal me. And I suppose I think that
725
00:38:11,850 --> 00:38:15,894
for people, when they say they are not
726
00:38:15,894 --> 00:38:18,650
creative or they're not artistically
727
00:38:18,650 --> 00:38:24,698
inclined, I want to try and be the. I
728
00:38:24,698 --> 00:38:26,398
don't know if conduit is the right word,
729
00:38:26,398 --> 00:38:28,494
but just the person that brings that
730
00:38:28,494 --> 00:38:31,200
piece. That's like, maybe if I ignite this
731
00:38:31,200 --> 00:38:34,926
match, you might burn a fire. It might
732
00:38:34,926 --> 00:38:38,020
kindle a fire that could help you on your
733
00:38:38,020 --> 00:38:42,546
way. Because I do strongly believe that we
734
00:38:42,546 --> 00:38:47,942
are all creative in very different ways.
735
00:38:47,942 --> 00:38:50,294
Maybe not in the traditional, like, you
736
00:38:50,294 --> 00:38:53,126
could draw a portrait or build a thing
737
00:38:53,126 --> 00:38:56,214
kind of way, but everybody has a thing
738
00:38:56,214 --> 00:38:58,866
that they feel like they could do, or
739
00:38:58,866 --> 00:39:00,842
maybe they feel like they want to do, but
740
00:39:00,842 --> 00:39:03,526
maybe has never explored that. And I think
741
00:39:03,526 --> 00:39:06,666
that's really important in that when we
742
00:39:06,666 --> 00:39:10,318
talk about healing, because if we don't
743
00:39:10,318 --> 00:39:13,694
answer to what the creative impulse or the
744
00:39:13,694 --> 00:39:19,722
thing that God put inside us and fully
745
00:39:19,722 --> 00:39:22,106
explore that, then it's very hard to
746
00:39:22,106 --> 00:39:26,686
imagine a way forward for ourselves and
747
00:39:26,686 --> 00:39:28,174
for the church. I don't know if that's
748
00:39:28,174 --> 00:39:32,286
making any sense at all. I think for me,
749
00:39:32,286 --> 00:39:34,590
it is the imagination piece. I think
750
00:39:34,590 --> 00:39:36,278
sometimes we get stuck in a way that's
751
00:39:36,278 --> 00:39:37,878
like, oh, this is really bad, but what are
752
00:39:37,878 --> 00:39:39,686
the ways we can move forward? There's
753
00:39:39,686 --> 00:39:41,298
nothing we could do. And then you get
754
00:39:41,298 --> 00:39:42,818
stuck in this kind of logical way where
755
00:39:42,818 --> 00:39:44,546
it's like, well, a plus b equals C.
756
00:39:44,546 --> 00:39:46,514
There's no way you could do. But with
757
00:39:46,514 --> 00:39:48,066
creativity, it is that literally, like,
758
00:39:48,066 --> 00:39:50,294
there's no wrong answer. So you can
759
00:39:50,294 --> 00:39:53,642
imagine whatever it is that you want. And
760
00:39:53,642 --> 00:39:56,246
maybe this is what very rigid systems
761
00:39:56,246 --> 00:39:58,186
hate, because there's no way to control
762
00:39:58,186 --> 00:40:00,540
the outcome of what a creative person
763
00:40:00,540 --> 00:40:03,734
does. But maybe this is what we need,
764
00:40:03,734 --> 00:40:06,074
because we do need kind of outside the box
765
00:40:06,074 --> 00:40:08,414
thinkers and answers and people that might
766
00:40:08,414 --> 00:40:10,286
be like, okay, maybe if it doesn't look
767
00:40:10,286 --> 00:40:13,806
like this, could it look like that? And I
768
00:40:13,806 --> 00:40:16,158
think with art and creativity, it's not
769
00:40:16,158 --> 00:40:20,414
just like a picture. Of course, beauty and
770
00:40:20,414 --> 00:40:22,302
aesthetic and all of those things are very
771
00:40:22,302 --> 00:40:24,562
essential parts that speak to our souls
772
00:40:24,562 --> 00:40:26,866
and can move us forward as well and can
773
00:40:26,866 --> 00:40:28,822
heal us. But I think the broader picture
774
00:40:28,822 --> 00:40:33,270
really is that when we come to solutions
775
00:40:33,270 --> 00:40:35,766
and building new things, you need that
776
00:40:35,766 --> 00:40:38,522
kind of like, what if. What if we build a
777
00:40:38,522 --> 00:40:40,634
world that was different or a church that
778
00:40:40,634 --> 00:40:48,426
looks different? A lot of the church
779
00:40:48,426 --> 00:40:50,282
history, for example, study church
780
00:40:50,282 --> 00:40:51,994
history. Things change because of that,
781
00:40:51,994 --> 00:40:53,706
right? Things change because there's like,
782
00:40:53,706 --> 00:40:55,550
a new invention, or like, the printing
783
00:40:55,550 --> 00:40:57,210
press changed the way that we read the
784
00:40:57,210 --> 00:40:59,434
Bible, or there's always that kind of
785
00:40:59,434 --> 00:41:01,422
innovation piece, or that creativity piece
786
00:41:01,422 --> 00:41:03,150
that pushes things along and moves it
787
00:41:03,150 --> 00:41:06,014
forward. And I think that it sounds
788
00:41:06,014 --> 00:41:08,082
terribly abstract because I don't have the
789
00:41:08,082 --> 00:41:09,794
answer. I believe that everybody has their
790
00:41:09,794 --> 00:41:11,602
own answers to it because they have it
791
00:41:11,602 --> 00:41:16,206
within themselves. And what I alluded to
792
00:41:16,206 --> 00:41:18,306
earlier is maybe that I just want to be
793
00:41:18,306 --> 00:41:20,802
that fire clicker that's just like, tick,
794
00:41:20,802 --> 00:41:24,246
tick. And then maybe you guys or others
795
00:41:24,246 --> 00:41:25,798
can be like, oh, maybe this is what I want
796
00:41:25,798 --> 00:41:27,400
to do, and this is what I want to take
797
00:41:27,400 --> 00:41:32,534
forward. So I'm developing that kind of, I
798
00:41:32,534 --> 00:41:34,234
guess, that language or that explanation
799
00:41:34,234 --> 00:41:36,042
around it. What is it that I'm trying to
800
00:41:36,042 --> 00:41:38,154
do? I'm still exploring, like, what it
801
00:41:38,154 --> 00:41:39,658
could look like, but this is what I have
802
00:41:39,658 --> 00:41:46,558
in my head and how it could work. And,
803
00:41:46,558 --> 00:41:50,314
yeah, I feel like maybe in a very kind of
804
00:41:50,314 --> 00:41:51,694
rigid, traditional sense, it's like, well,
805
00:41:51,694 --> 00:41:53,310
that doesn't actually help us with
806
00:41:53,310 --> 00:41:56,994
anything. But I feel like maybe that's my
807
00:41:56,994 --> 00:41:59,666
part in bringing that kind of creativity.
808
00:41:59,666 --> 00:42:02,734
Or the revelation of it is that I want to
809
00:42:02,734 --> 00:42:05,090
encourage people to move along their
810
00:42:05,090 --> 00:42:07,414
creativity and see what they find on the
811
00:42:07,414 --> 00:42:10,194
other end of it. Well, you have certainly
812
00:42:10,194 --> 00:42:13,414
helped many find their creatives aside and
813
00:42:13,414 --> 00:42:14,966
through your movement that you've started
814
00:42:14,966 --> 00:42:19,146
the A to Z trauma recovery and just help
815
00:42:19,146 --> 00:42:22,682
people express themselves in ways that
816
00:42:22,682 --> 00:42:24,634
bring their own healing but also allow
817
00:42:24,634 --> 00:42:27,962
others to heal as they see these creative
818
00:42:27,962 --> 00:42:32,026
works of art on display. So you are making
819
00:42:32,026 --> 00:42:34,926
such a difference, and I'm so just honored
820
00:42:34,926 --> 00:42:37,082
to have had you on the show today
821
00:42:37,082 --> 00:42:39,450
expressing who you are, both with your
822
00:42:39,450 --> 00:42:42,366
voice and also pointing us to your art. So
823
00:42:42,366 --> 00:42:44,782
in light of that, let us know where we can
824
00:42:44,782 --> 00:42:48,066
find you and on social media and follow
825
00:42:48,066 --> 00:42:50,194
more of the art and beauty that you're
826
00:42:50,194 --> 00:42:52,706
putting out into the world. So I'm mainly
827
00:42:52,706 --> 00:42:55,790
on Instagram, which is you can find me at
828
00:42:55,790 --> 00:42:59,026
Erin Hung. Erinhung. And then it's
829
00:42:59,026 --> 00:43:00,898
underscore studio. If you search Erin
830
00:43:00,898 --> 00:43:04,226
hung, I'm sure it'll come up. And I'm
831
00:43:04,226 --> 00:43:06,198
mainly on there. And you can also find,
832
00:43:06,198 --> 00:43:09,046
actually, the A to Z of trauma recovery,
833
00:43:09,046 --> 00:43:11,180
which is the movement that I started last
834
00:43:11,180 --> 00:43:15,830
year under the hashtag A to Z of trauma
835
00:43:15,830 --> 00:43:18,010
recovery. And you can find all the
836
00:43:18,010 --> 00:43:19,846
community posts there. I think we've
837
00:43:19,846 --> 00:43:22,734
collected over 500 now, which was kind of
838
00:43:22,734 --> 00:43:24,846
mind blowing, actually, because I thought,
839
00:43:24,846 --> 00:43:28,014
oh, maybe if it was just me, then it would
840
00:43:28,014 --> 00:43:34,142
also be fine. But the first four weeks of
841
00:43:34,142 --> 00:43:37,986
January last year, we had a lot of posts
842
00:43:37,986 --> 00:43:40,194
from people processing and talking about
843
00:43:40,194 --> 00:43:43,202
their experiences. So if anyone is
844
00:43:43,202 --> 00:43:47,174
interested in kind of proving the hashtag,
845
00:43:47,174 --> 00:43:49,974
all the artwork is there. To look at as
846
00:43:49,974 --> 00:43:52,726
well. Well, Erin, you're making such a
847
00:43:52,726 --> 00:43:55,106
difference, and as you heal, you're
848
00:43:55,106 --> 00:43:57,446
helping others heal and process all of
849
00:43:57,446 --> 00:44:01,242
these things in ways that help us see our
850
00:44:01,242 --> 00:44:03,174
part in this whole tapestry that's being
851
00:44:03,174 --> 00:44:05,306
woven with all of us so interconnected.
852
00:44:05,306 --> 00:44:08,826
And thank you for your just words today,
853
00:44:08,826 --> 00:44:10,586
that you're not only showing us through
854
00:44:10,586 --> 00:44:12,874
your art, but you're speaking your own
855
00:44:12,874 --> 00:44:14,346
words and your perspective really is
856
00:44:14,346 --> 00:44:15,970
making a difference. It's been such an
857
00:44:15,970 --> 00:44:18,014
honor to have you on the show today, Erin.
858
00:44:18,014 --> 00:44:19,614
Oh, thanks. That's so kind of you to say.
859
00:44:19,614 --> 00:44:21,502
And I was very excited to have this chat.
860
00:44:21,502 --> 00:44:24,282
So thank you for having me and giving me a
861
00:44:24,282 --> 00:44:27,234
chance to speak more about what my heart
862
00:44:27,234 --> 00:44:31,474
is for. That conversation just meant so
863
00:44:31,474 --> 00:44:33,666
much to me. I don't know how it sounded
864
00:44:33,666 --> 00:44:35,314
for you all over the world listening.
865
00:44:35,314 --> 00:44:38,014
Maybe you are listening in Hong Kong or
866
00:44:38,014 --> 00:44:41,494
Singapore or Taiwan, somewhere near that
867
00:44:41,494 --> 00:44:42,866
part of the world. Or maybe you're
868
00:44:42,866 --> 00:44:45,254
listening in Australia or the US or the UK
869
00:44:45,254 --> 00:44:47,206
or somewhere in Africa. We have a lot of
870
00:44:47,206 --> 00:44:49,990
you in Nigeria that listen, shout out to
871
00:44:49,990 --> 00:44:53,146
Nigeria. And I just want to say, wherever
872
00:44:53,146 --> 00:44:54,954
you are in the world, I really hope it
873
00:44:54,954 --> 00:44:57,914
came through just how vulnerable and raw
874
00:44:57,914 --> 00:45:00,794
that conversation was with Erin and how
875
00:45:00,794 --> 00:45:03,086
fragile it can feel when a faith community
876
00:45:03,086 --> 00:45:07,086
that has formed you and has meant so much
877
00:45:07,086 --> 00:45:13,022
to you has also caused so much pain. And,
878
00:45:13,022 --> 00:45:15,378
you know, the way that Erin can express
879
00:45:15,378 --> 00:45:18,242
some of that through her very creative,
880
00:45:18,242 --> 00:45:21,186
right brain, artistic ways is something
881
00:45:21,186 --> 00:45:24,386
that gives me so much hope. And it is such
882
00:45:24,386 --> 00:45:29,574
a path through feeling those hard feelings
883
00:45:29,574 --> 00:45:32,102
is the only way through them. To ignore
884
00:45:32,102 --> 00:45:34,946
them or pretend they don't exist, to not
885
00:45:34,946 --> 00:45:38,074
lament the pain and the suffering, to just
886
00:45:38,074 --> 00:45:42,666
want to only embrace the happy, good parts
887
00:45:42,666 --> 00:45:46,202
of the story. It's not serving any of us
888
00:45:46,202 --> 00:45:48,746
well. And I don't know what culture you
889
00:45:48,746 --> 00:45:51,434
have grown up in. If it was a culture that
890
00:45:51,434 --> 00:45:53,430
said, we don't speak these things out
891
00:45:53,430 --> 00:45:55,486
loud, we don't stir the pot, we don't rock
892
00:45:55,486 --> 00:45:57,374
the boat. A lot of different phrases I've
893
00:45:57,374 --> 00:45:59,418
heard out there. If that's the kind of
894
00:45:59,418 --> 00:46:01,086
culture and family you grew up in, I just
895
00:46:01,086 --> 00:46:04,318
want to say, listen to what Erin is
896
00:46:04,318 --> 00:46:06,510
saying. Maybe listen to this podcast
897
00:46:06,510 --> 00:46:08,226
another time. Maybe it was just kind of
898
00:46:08,226 --> 00:46:11,186
too much all at once. Listen to it in a
899
00:46:11,186 --> 00:46:12,914
way that you can understand. There are
900
00:46:12,914 --> 00:46:16,134
people like her showing us the way forward
901
00:46:16,134 --> 00:46:19,094
in their own ways and their own gifts. She
902
00:46:19,094 --> 00:46:21,570
has brought her gift of artistic
903
00:46:21,570 --> 00:46:24,194
expression into this world of trauma
904
00:46:24,194 --> 00:46:27,030
recovery, and it is such a beautiful
905
00:46:27,030 --> 00:46:30,130
thing. I'm so honored to just watch it
906
00:46:30,130 --> 00:46:32,118
unfold on social media. Seeing her murals
907
00:46:32,118 --> 00:46:33,770
that she paints, seeing her process
908
00:46:33,770 --> 00:46:35,174
sometimes that she shows us little
909
00:46:35,174 --> 00:46:37,226
glimpses into, and the way she has invited
910
00:46:37,226 --> 00:46:39,366
so many people to be a part of her A to Z
911
00:46:39,366 --> 00:46:43,470
trauma recovery sort of process that's
912
00:46:43,470 --> 00:46:48,506
very inclusive and so much diversity, and
913
00:46:48,506 --> 00:46:51,246
it's spaces like that, the reimagining of
914
00:46:51,246 --> 00:46:53,406
what it could be, the opening up our minds
915
00:46:53,406 --> 00:46:56,258
to say what if? Having conversations with
916
00:46:56,258 --> 00:46:59,618
others to come up with other ideas.
917
00:46:59,618 --> 00:47:01,538
Because what got us here isn't what is
918
00:47:01,538 --> 00:47:04,130
going to get us to the next level. We need
919
00:47:04,130 --> 00:47:06,530
new ways if what we've experienced has
920
00:47:06,530 --> 00:47:08,822
been full of suffering and pain and harm
921
00:47:08,822 --> 00:47:12,822
and abuse and trauma. So the things that
922
00:47:12,822 --> 00:47:15,366
have served us before, that caused us pain
923
00:47:15,366 --> 00:47:17,174
and suddenly didn't serve us anymore,
924
00:47:17,174 --> 00:47:19,718
cause us to have to rethink. And that's
925
00:47:19,718 --> 00:47:21,354
where we need this diversity of brains
926
00:47:21,354 --> 00:47:23,494
around the table people in Hong Kong with
927
00:47:23,494 --> 00:47:25,302
artistic capabilities who studied in
928
00:47:25,302 --> 00:47:28,534
London, right. And all different kinds of
929
00:47:28,534 --> 00:47:31,354
brains and perspectives that can help us
930
00:47:31,354 --> 00:47:34,202
know what it can look like together as we
931
00:47:34,202 --> 00:47:36,606
form a new path. I do have a lot of hope
932
00:47:36,606 --> 00:47:38,702
in what's happening in this generation of
933
00:47:38,702 --> 00:47:40,366
people who seem to be really trying to
934
00:47:40,366 --> 00:47:42,266
make a difference, and you're among them.
935
00:47:42,266 --> 00:47:44,586
You're listening to those podcasts because
936
00:47:44,586 --> 00:47:47,018
there's something inside you that wants to
937
00:47:47,018 --> 00:47:48,398
make the world a better place, whether
938
00:47:48,398 --> 00:47:51,314
it's a big or a small way. And absolutely
939
00:47:51,314 --> 00:47:53,486
do not recommend that you have any kind of
940
00:47:53,486 --> 00:47:55,394
grandiose dreams. But the reason we're all
941
00:47:55,394 --> 00:47:57,266
here together is because we can each bring
942
00:47:57,266 --> 00:47:59,526
our little part. And when we put each of
943
00:47:59,526 --> 00:48:02,066
our little puzzle pieces in the puzzle,
944
00:48:02,066 --> 00:48:03,686
suddenly you step back and there's a
945
00:48:03,686 --> 00:48:05,222
beautiful puzzle that's been built
946
00:48:05,222 --> 00:48:08,146
together with all of our little parts. And
947
00:48:08,146 --> 00:48:10,034
that's the beauty of the art that she's
948
00:48:10,034 --> 00:48:12,474
creating and inviting us all in to create
949
00:48:12,474 --> 00:48:15,094
with her. So I am not necessarily an
950
00:48:15,094 --> 00:48:17,674
artistic person, but I do want to lean
951
00:48:17,674 --> 00:48:20,042
more into the right brain activities that
952
00:48:20,042 --> 00:48:22,538
allow my brain and body and soul to kind
953
00:48:22,538 --> 00:48:23,958
of process some of the things that I went
954
00:48:23,958 --> 00:48:27,486
through. And it was in a trauma recovery
955
00:48:27,486 --> 00:48:29,806
situation in a group where I kind of got
956
00:48:29,806 --> 00:48:31,502
some crayons and a piece of paper and
957
00:48:31,502 --> 00:48:33,166
started doing some things that I realized,
958
00:48:33,166 --> 00:48:35,134
oh, there is some healing there, and it's
959
00:48:35,134 --> 00:48:37,838
something I don't do nearly enough. But
960
00:48:37,838 --> 00:48:39,618
this conversation with her was a reminder
961
00:48:39,618 --> 00:48:41,378
to me to kind of lean into that a little
962
00:48:41,378 --> 00:48:42,882
more. And I hope that you do, too,
963
00:48:42,882 --> 00:48:45,774
whatever that looks like for you. So, so
964
00:48:45,774 --> 00:48:47,266
grateful for Erin being on the show today,
965
00:48:47,266 --> 00:48:49,122
for being so vulnerable and sharing her
966
00:48:49,122 --> 00:48:52,098
story with us in the pain of it all,
967
00:48:52,098 --> 00:48:54,966
allowing us to hold both the beautiful and
968
00:48:54,966 --> 00:48:57,126
the terrible in two different hands and
969
00:48:57,126 --> 00:48:59,334
know that they're both there. And that's
970
00:48:59,334 --> 00:49:02,042
okay. And it's a way to honor her story
971
00:49:02,042 --> 00:49:05,046
together and our own. So check her out.
972
00:49:05,046 --> 00:49:07,670
We'll link her in the show notes. She's on
973
00:49:07,670 --> 00:49:09,418
Instagram where she posts her beautiful
974
00:49:09,418 --> 00:49:11,418
things, but we'll link her information in
975
00:49:11,418 --> 00:49:12,942
the show notes so you can continue to
976
00:49:12,942 --> 00:49:15,326
follow her work and maybe contribute to
977
00:49:15,326 --> 00:49:19,294
some of that a to z of trauma recovery
978
00:49:19,294 --> 00:49:21,006
piece that she's put out there that so
979
00:49:21,006 --> 00:49:23,962
many people have really benefited from and
980
00:49:23,962 --> 00:49:26,238
observed or taken part in. So I hope that
981
00:49:26,238 --> 00:49:29,726
you do, too. And as you do that, may the
982
00:49:29,726 --> 00:49:31,042
artistic expression, either that you
983
00:49:31,042 --> 00:49:32,866
create or that you observe, just help you
984
00:49:32,866 --> 00:49:34,898
to get to a place of finding more beauty
985
00:49:34,898 --> 00:49:37,254
in the world. And that beauty and joy
986
00:49:37,254 --> 00:49:39,574
bring a smile to your face and help you
987
00:49:39,574 --> 00:49:42,214
have a resilience to walk through the hard
988
00:49:42,214 --> 00:49:45,298
things. Because if we don't add in beauty,
989
00:49:45,298 --> 00:49:48,006
joy, hope, healing, and happiness in these
990
00:49:48,006 --> 00:49:50,086
kind of moments, it's just so much harder
991
00:49:50,086 --> 00:49:51,526
when we face the hard things, because we
992
00:49:51,526 --> 00:49:53,410
all face them. So that builds our
993
00:49:53,410 --> 00:49:55,126
resiliency to walk through the hard stuff.
994
00:49:55,126 --> 00:49:57,014
To continue to add that beauty into your
995
00:49:57,014 --> 00:49:59,602
life that you can celebrate. But do not
996
00:49:59,602 --> 00:50:02,158
neglect to knowledge that life is hard
997
00:50:02,158 --> 00:50:03,806
sometimes, and we need that beauty to help
998
00:50:03,806 --> 00:50:05,418
us walk through and hold it together.
999
00:50:05,418 --> 00:50:06,766
Erin's a great reminder of that. So glad
1000
00:50:06,766 --> 00:50:09,310
she was on the show today. And for all of
1001
00:50:09,310 --> 00:50:11,054
you, take a deep breath. If this was a
1002
00:50:11,054 --> 00:50:13,774
hard one, and it may have been for some of
1003
00:50:13,774 --> 00:50:15,486
you, and if it was, feel free to reach
1004
00:50:15,486 --> 00:50:18,126
out. I always like hearing from you, and I
1005
00:50:18,126 --> 00:50:20,126
just want to always remind you that you
1006
00:50:20,126 --> 00:50:21,674
matter and keep making a difference
