EP 134 | A Trauma-Informed Perspective to Spiritual Growth (with Edwina Yeow)

Introduction and Episode Overview

Edwina: What God blesses us with never goes away. He gives, once he gives, he never revokes his gift. So it is here, but this part that has emerged for us to survive takes over and we live here, and we begin to believe that this is our identity. I'm an angry person. I am, oh, I'm lazy. Oh, I am whatever, fill in the blanks. But this is not who we are. Welcome to Becoming Me, your podcast companion and coach in your journey to a more integrated and authentic self. I am your host, Ann Yeong, and I'm here to help you grow in self-discovery and wholeness. If you long to live a more authentic and integrated life and would like to hear honest insights about the rewards and challenges of this journey, then take a deep breath, relax, and listen on to Becoming Me.
Hello everyone, welcome to another episode of nchat or becoming me. If you're listening to this on my podcast.

Introducing Edwina Yeow of Anam Cara Ministries

Ann: In this episode, I will be sharing with you a conversation that I recorded with Edwina Yeow of Anam Cara Ministries. If you already have been following my podcast for some time you may have already heard. I think we have three episodes recorded already in the past between me and Edwina. Well this conversation that I want to share with you today is about well, it's actually about a lot about trauma. It's our own sharing about how recognizing and learning about trauma has impacted or affected the way we see our spiritual journeys, our faith, and our relationship with God. 

So this is a lens that I know is relatively newer to many people who are on the interior journey, who come from the trajectory that I came from, which is, you know, really from the faith perspective first, when maybe that was the, perhaps maybe even the only perspective that we have of the interior journey. And then being led along the way to discover that God wants us to be fully human and, and to be fully human includes more than spirituality, right? That there are deep human foundations that have been wounded and scarred because of trauma and that those woundings impact the way we even approach our spiritual life, the way we see our faith and understand what it means to be faithful as a Christian or as a Catholic. So Edwina is a very experienced spiritual director. 

At this point, I think she has more than almost 30 years of experience in spiritual direction, retreat direction, and along the way she has also expanded her area of learning and training into counseling and picking up psychological tools and most recently also really incorporating somatic tools, so this is like a modality that's been coming up even in the area of therapy and psychology, to understand how trauma impacts our nervous system, our bodies, and, you know, using methods that include our body in the conversation, let's say whether it's in therapy or in the case of Edwina, what she calls soul tending. So that spiritual direction is not just talking or, you know, through the lens of faith and spirituality or the language that is quite specific just to spirituality but this conversation can now include the language also of psychology in a more integrative way. With a lens that allows us to recognize that every person who seeks spiritual direction or seeks to make progress in the interior journey also has a story that's held in their bodies that many of us, most of us, I would say, uh, would have some history of trauma that has shaped our understanding of what love is, what relationship is, who God is, what it means to be a follower of Christ, what it means to love God, love others, or love ourself.

And so many of us don't even realize that these scripts that we have that have been distorted by our trauma. We don't question them. We think that it, you know, the scripts are our answer to finding a way to live a life that will earn us acceptance, if not by others, which we all also, of course, hope for, at least by God. And so trauma really can impact and distort our whole journey without us even realizing it. 

I hope that this conversation that Edwina and I had will open some doors for you if you, like us, have been sincerely and really maybe passionately seeking Christ and, and yet recognizing how limited you are and how finite your ability to, to love and be loved is, okay? We'll always be finite, of course, but The pain of that finitude not being embraced is also often from our, our lack of acceptance and understanding of our woundedness. So I hope that this conversation will be interesting to you and that it may give you hope and maybe, shine a light on your interior journey in a way that hasn't been done before. So without much further ado, I invite you to listen to Edwina and me.

Ann: So Edwina, thank you so much for agreeing to have this conversation today. Edwina: Thank you. Ann: Because one, I know you, you always, feel a little nervous about, about being on air or just any kind of public speaking, even though. Those of us who hear you always just feel like, oh, you know, it's so comforting to hear Edwina. 

I know, you know, you have another voice in your head that says something very different, but also why I invited you to do this conversation. 

Edwina: Yes. Well, thank you. And, thank you for the opportunity to exercise this muscle and to, And to just really come as I am. And to offer what I have and to share and it's always good to have conversations with you. So that's what I enjoy. So thank you. 

Personal Reflections on Trauma and Faith 

Ann: Yeah. As you know, because I share with you, you know, in my own work and in the content I've been putting out, I've been talking and writing, you know, more and more regularly. about trauma and about the impact of trauma on our nervous system and about healing from the wounds of a family of origin. And, you know, just very recently I was wondering, I was trying to think back, how did I end up here? here as in, you know, talking so much about trauma and the nervous system or being so involved in my own journey in this area of inner work, right? 

Because when I trace back my, my journey, when it first began, it was, It was a yearning, for God, first and foremost, because of the pain I was in. I've shared before in my podcast and on my other videos that think my first awakening or turning to, to God in a more personal way was as a teenager. When I went on a pilgrimage to Europe, you know, with, with my family and the stories of the saints. who always had so much suffering in their lives, but yet, it seemed always had hope and inner peace or joy. Well, That's the impression I had, you know, as a teenager. That really made me feel like, I want what they had. And it seemed like what they had was a relationship with God that somehow enabled them to to still be at peace and loving and in some sense at that time, the way I saw it was gonna rise above the persecution, the suffering, so many unfair things that were happening to them. 

It wasn't even just physical suffering, although many of them had that. It was like the persecution from their own community members. I'm thinking of Saint Bernadette of Soubirous now, right, from, uh, from the, from Lourdes the famous apparition of Mary in Lourdes, right? How after that when she entered religious life, she was bullied actually by, think her superiors or whatever, people who were even envious or jealous of, of her because of what had, you know, that already appeared to her. And she's just one, one example, right? 

The saints had so much, uh, so much pain, but they were so close to God and that relationship seemed to give them so much, I don't know, joy, peace, which was what I was looking for. And so that started me on my quest, my lifelong quest, right? How can I draw closer to God? How can I, yeah, I don't know. I think it's like, how can I dot, dot, dot, I don't know, really know what I was looking for. And So I went, you know, I, I studied, I learned about my faith. about the Catholic faith. I, I read so much. I went on retreats later on, you know, spiritual direction, silent retreats, whatever it was that I found out about that I thought could help deepen this relationship with God. 

You know, um, I availed myself to, but something that I now realize looking back is that a lot of the struggles that I bring to my retreats, to my retreat direction, to spiritual direction. 

The Impact of Trauma on Relationships and Faith 

Ann: A lot of those struggles, often to do with relationships or people, whether it's primary relationships in my life, or with people that I'm ministering to, or colleagues, whatever it was, They came from the deep pain of my broken humanity. Can I say, can I, can I say that? Like now I know that, but for so long, all years and decades, I never knew that. I only saw it as I still needed to grow in holiness, it's because I'm not close enough to God and that's why I was not generous enough yet, I'm not close enough to God and that's why I was not generous enough yet, I'm not loving enough, I'm not patient enough, I'm not compassionate enough, or I had to deal with how I'm not disciplined enough, maybe, you know, so many things. 

I think I was not showing up in the way that I imagined a saint would show up because I was not close enough to God, but I didn't love God enough. And what struck me was how in all the years of retreats and conversations that I've had with maybe religious or priests, spiritual directors, how few of those conversations, as helpful as those conversations were at that time, how few of those conversations redirected me, or clued me in that I needed some kind of human or emotional healing.

All right. The one time that stood out was when, my director for the spiritual exercises, after I completed the 19th annotation fully and I think the following year, she Mentioned to me that she thought perhaps I needed inner child healing.

And you know, that was one, something that kind of like made me aware that there was even such a thing.

Edwina Yeow: mm 

Integrating Psychology and Spirituality

Ann: I wanted to bring you on today because you, you practice for many, many years as a spiritual director as well. And as a retreat director, um, you still kind of do that. As in, I know you still, you still sometimes do individual direction for retreats upon request, but I know that you've expanded your practice beyond, what people generally think of as spiritual direction to something that's more interdisciplinary and more integrative and that includes psychology, even more recently in recent years incorporating somatic practices.

I know you've been learning about somatic practices and about trauma and about the impact of trauma on the nervous system. And, and you and I have had so many really deep and powerful conversations, not just about this topic, but in sharing about our own journeys in our interior journey, the pain, the, the, the pain as well as I guess, the power of experiencing healing from this lens of understanding that trauma has had an imprint on us and that it has impacted our, you know, interior journey.

So before I turn this over to you, I know that was a really long prelude, but I wanted to set the context as to why we're having this conversation. In your experience, and I know you've seen many, many people, whether it's in direction in retreats and in spiritual direction, how many would you say, these are people who are seeking God, honestly, clearly, or else they wouldn't be. going for direction or retreats. 

How many would have had some impact, from trauma in their lives and, and maybe are not aware or were not aware that whatever it is that they're bringing to you, what they're struggling with has to do with that imprint of trauma in their lives.What percentage, roughly?

Edwina: And I think, you know, it's like all. So, um, 

Ann: Yeah.

Edwina: All, all of us. I don't think I have encountered anybody who has not been touched by some form of trauma and how that has shaped their lives and their relationships with others, with themselves and with God. And I think it is part of the human condition, actually, that, um, it is part of life, that we all experience some kind of, something that That is, is, uh, either that was done unto us or that was not done for us.

Uh, and because we are all so differently made and our needs are so different, we,even when, when others try to be there for us, sometimes they are not able to give us exactly what we need. And then sometimes, Life happens, and we do experience that, and that shapes as we experience, this either this lack or this hurt, and therefore, in our need to survive and to deal with this, we learn ways of coping, and then that shapes the way we live our lives, the way we relate to others, the way we see ourselves, and ultimately the way we see God.

So, yes, I would say everyone who has, you know, sought soul tending, which is what I call my blend of, spiritual direction, uh, counselling process, and somatic awareness. All of them, including me, we all have, we all have experienced trauma and it has in some way or some form shaped us. Yeah. 

Recognising and Addressing Religious Scripts

Ann: Can you share from your experience?

So of course in your earlier years, now you're about 30 years into your, I guess, ministry, you could say, right? You have about three decades worth of experience in doing this kind of ministering work. 

What difference has it made now that you have this trauma lens? Compared to before when you didn't have this lens of you know, recognising, you know, that the person that comes to you that even though you don't know what it exactly is. 

You can sense that there's a, there's, there's trauma there. and secondly, what difference has it made in terms of how you, how equipped you feel? Like, so this new, the new things that you've been picking up beyond, the pastoral skills that you've picked up before in spiritual direction. Plus, of course, always the discernment of spirits on your own, listening to the Holy Spirit.

What difference has this new awareness made?

Edwina:  I think that for me, one of the most, one of the most important shifts that this trauma lens has given me is a deeper, much, much deeper and more embodied appreciation, a way of appreciating the person that is sitting before me. Before before I was aware that there was such a thing as trauma, except for, you know, car accidents and things like that, in the past,yes, it was always a, privilege, and it still is when someone sits across from me and I, I get to step onto the holy ground of their lives. 

Uh,but now with the trauma lens there, the person who sits before me is, is the holy ground, is the burning bush, is the you.

There is such a, um,a layered complexity almost to the person. And my sense of awe, wonder, and the, the sense of you cannot, you cannot take this person lightly and not that I ever did, but that there is so much more that I cannot see. And can I really tread very reverently, even more reverently than before, because I don't know what I'm seeing.

I really don't know what I'm seeing, and I don't know the story. There's not the story in the person's head. That one comes out. But there is another [00:20:00] story that the body carries, that the, that may be actually even hidden to the person themselves.  I cannot tell you how privileged, truly privileged I feel to be able to sit there, take off my shoes and to just sit there with them and to see with them what is actually unfolding before our eyes, even before sometimes our eyes.

Any part of the narrative gets shared with us. The body talks, the spirit talks. And sometimes all the things that are held inside, because of trauma, which is a disruption, trauma does cause a disruption between the mind, body and spirit connection. So that can come forth as I sit and [00:21:00] wait with this kind of reverence.

Um, the story, the, the story that the body carries can begin to be heard, witnessed, and then we can actually see where God is actually inviting us to move.

Okay. I would like to come back to what you said about the body speaks, I

think we're seeing the body saying something. So when we, when you and I, when we talk about trauma, we also, the way we talk about it is always also in conjunction with the very embodied trauma. understanding of how trauma impacts us, right?

So it's not trauma. is not in the mind. It's, it has a real impact on our nervous system and how our body feels and the way our body expresses itself.

That's something I think that's interesting. 

Ann: So could you give an example, when you say someone comes in 00] to see you, let's say for soul tending or retreat direction, and even before they say anything, what might you be already be able to hear from what their body is saying to you as an example?

Edwina: Yeah, because I never know. Right. So usually when someone comes in, the first thing we do is to just get present. And we, we take our time getting to the story because the story, or the narrative, or whatever it is that, however it is, the mind has conceptualized the issue, the struggle, whatever.

While it is important, it, it's something that the person already knows, so we, it will keep, we want to wait for the rest of the body to come online, as it were, to become present, and for us to become present to whatever is here.

So, as I sit with the person, we take time for the person to orientate themselves to the room, to get a sense of whether they feel comfortable, whether they don't, or the distance that they are sitting away from me, whether that's comfortable, whether they need it a little bit closer or a little bit further away, whether You know, there's too much energy.

They realize that they're too empty and they can't sit down and they realize, oh, actually I'm feeling a bit You know, I'm too anxious I can't sit and so maybe they can stand they can walk if the the size and the space allows and we we wait for us to become aware of what is already present, how the body is already beginning to talk, whether it's a nervousness or whether it's, oh, yeah, no, I'm suddenly feeling so tired.

I'm just so tired. I came in, my mind was buzzing and I was, I'm going to talk to Edwina about this and this and this and this and then now that I'm here and I'm and we do this exercise and I'm just so tired. I just want to curl up and I just want to sleep. I have no idea why I came in, and so we listen and we make space for what the body is saying. And usually when we go this way, we eventually become full circle to whatever the mind had been holding, but it comes In a much more roundabout way, that, honours, the parts that are not yet ready to talk about it, maybe. The parts that are wanting to talk about another bit of the story, not exactly the story in my head.

So when we take time to just slow down and to tune in to become present, we follow the direction of what is already flowing and what is ready to be seen and in a way that is very respectful, that doesn't force the issue, that doesn't take a sledgehammer to the problem, you know, that, that respects that whatever is here.

Whether it be resistance, and especially if there is resistance, we respect that what, what it, this resistance is protecting is really sacred, and we go very gently and respectfully and without assuming that we know how to fix, because we don't, but the inner wisdom that is gifted to us, 

To each one of us, that wisdom, that original blessing that is held in the body, it knows. It knows the way we need to approach the issue, and all we need to do is to bear witness to how it wants to unfold, and to accompany it, to be with it in a way that is compassionate, that is kind, that doesn't assume that I know better than you, because really, I don't. Nobody does. Only the person

And God within knows.I only get to bear witness, to accompany, to share what I see, so that they can test and say, Oh yeah, that's true. Oh, I didn't realize that. Because sometimes we have blind spots. But really what I do is I, I simply bear witness, and then I reflect it back to them, and then they counter check, and Is this true?

No, it's not true. It's more like this. It's not, I don't feel anger. I, it's, it's sadness. Oh, so there's sadness. So what we thought was anxiety or anger is not. It's actually, it's actually sadness. So let's just be with sadness and see what comes from that. And maybe there's something else behind sadness.

And so it goes. It's an, a story that unfolds. Slowly,

Ann: Mm-Hmm. So this whole process that you've just described, how is that more trauma informed or sensitive to the presence of trauma in the person who comes to you? 

As opposed to, let's say the usual, we'll just sit down and let the person talk. and of course, usually the person would lead with a story they have inside their heads, the interpretation that they already have about the issues that they have, for Are you able to say something to that? 

Edwina: I suppose what is, what is different is that I, I do not automatically go to the spiritual. I, I tend to, in my practice, go with the flow of the body and wait for what the body will speak first, because I, I have found that it is. It is a lot gentler for the person who is coming to me for, a session to, to go in to go in where it's, uh, how shall I say this?

Maybe it might be unfamiliar because for most of them, when they first come to me, they, This is completely alien. We don't pay attention to the body. And in fact, this part, you know, neck downwards, they don't even know they have something there. So , it's, really unfamiliar and not very comfortable or, um, experience for them.

At the start because what they are in the past, the, the, the people whom I used to do spiritual direction with, would come in, already thinking a story, and that story would be clouded by their perception of God and their understanding of what church, perhaps, requires of them to be or do, some idea of what being a good Catholic slash, , mother, father, or whatever, whatever is expected and you know, there's a lot of guilt and a lot of lot of guilt, a lot of superstition, and plenty of self blame, self hatred or this, this fear of God, which is not the, not what scripture means by fear of God.

So, you know, and, and I find that when I have to work through all of that down, I, I make very little headway because their experience of God is so linked with their experience of their own father, their own mother, their own experience of what it means to be child. 

And so, I can't go to, to, you know, to, to help them encounter a loving God when their whole experience of God as father is modelled on the experience of their own relationship with their father or their mother, you know, and don't talk about the experience with Mary and the saints.

Some of them can't, you know, they just can't. And that also reflects my own. For the longest time, I couldn't have a relationship with Mary. And it really troubled me and I didn't understand why. Because in my mind, I It's mother, you know, loving.

Ann: If we go through, if we go via the head first or the, the narratives and the stories that people already have, that their own interpretation, because we all have interpretations of what we're struggling with, right?

Often, I'm sure you find that when people come to you, they already, have some, sense, sometimes even a certain judgment about their experiences.

Edwina: Yes. 

Ann: Right. talk a little bit about scripts. Okay. Religious scripts and protector parts. So I know I'm kind of bringing in a little bit here now, the language from internal family systems, right.

IFS, where we know that. apart from the core self, I mean there are these, you know, where many different parts, were experienced in many different parts, and there's a kind, there's a category of parts, that often try to prevent us from getting hurt again by making sure, for example, that we follow the rules or we, we meet certain expectations. 

And I believe that most of the people I was saying, imagine, or maybe if not all of the people who are interested in my podcast and my content are people who take their faith seriously, but they know that they struggle, you know, like maybe like, you know, my own story, like, you know, I'm trying so hard, you know, with all the spiritual means, but why is it that I still struggle?

You know living it out, living, living what I understand or I know, I'm supposed to let's say be compassionate and loving, but I can't live it out. And, and in my own journey, I've realized that, well, actually I never, I never questioned what love actually looks like or means or compassion, all of that. I already had and adopted, maybe received an impression of what love is what compassion and compassion is what faithfulness looks like and I never questioned them and what's more This is an even more recent recognition that all of these concepts have been And meshed into my woundedness and the way I've experienced trauma, right?

So we've had this conversation before where sometimes you say it's so hard, like you feel so much also for people who, you who, who suffer, but they have these really tight religious scripts of what it means to be, for example, a good Catholic. 

And it's almost like these scripts. are prison walls, actually, and it's so ironic because, you know, we all believe that being religious, being spiritual is what will set us free. How is it then, you know, like, like, that the very things that we think will set us free, Are actually what is keeping us in prison?

Do you think you can try a little bit to just kind of maybe,  you know, speak a bit about how that is linked to trauma having these religious scripts that don't seem to actually help someone But actually is keeping them locked in and how maybe that approach that you've been that you've been talking a bit about that Allows us to not start from the mind or the intellect where these scripts are firmly lodged.

Uh, how that can actually give people an avenue to connect with maybe parts of themselves that they have not connected with in your experience.

Edwina: That's a huge question.

Ann:  I know. It's okay. You know, you don't have to answer the thing, but um, but just for example, okay, so let's just focus on how would you agree that there definitely are a lot of, you know, very sincere people seeking God who do not realize how trapped they are in the prison of their religious Catholic scripts or Christian whatever.

Edwina: Absolutely, absolutely. There is not a single person whom I have encountered who hasn't deeply and sincerely with all they, they are aware of and all that they have, seek God. They are seeking, or else they wouldn't, they wouldn't have come to seek out spiritual direction. They wouldn't have risked, you know, being vulnerable, you know, and sharing things which they probably don't share with other people.

Every single one of them has a deep, deep desire for intimacy with God, for, for becoming, , for drawing closer to God. But yes, they also, uh, sometimes, sometimes not aware that they even have scripts in their minds that tell them that if you want to be close to God, this is what you do. Well, they have some idea that, yes, and it comes out in a language like, shouldn't I go for mass every day?

Or shouldn't I? Uh, it doesn't just mean, you know, if I can't forgive them, I'm not, I'm not loving, I'm not being loving, or, um, I'm not obeying the commandments, you know, and things like that. So, the language, comes out, does give, uh, a clue as to what story they are actually running, what script is actually running behind their minds.

 So in, in a session, I would actually listen to that story when it comes out, or I reflect and say, Oh, so there is this. This idea that you have and then slowly we, we look at what is the image of God that they have and then where, perhaps in the lived experience, this has been true, like God is.

If you don't do this, a ball from heaven will come and will strike you, or, you know, I will be punished if I don't do the right thing, or, , if I'm not loving, or if I'm not generous, I don't take care of my parents, , I don't live with them, and, and, you know, till they die, yeah, then, I will be punished, because I am unfilial, or whatever, so there could be any kind of script, and so when we look at that, we, tease out a little bit what is the image of God, some as the punisher, as the one who's, who's quite harsh.

And then we say, oh, yes, but then when you, when you look at these verses in the scripture, which describe God as loving, as kind, and come to me, all you who are weary and heavy burdened and I will give you rest. How do you reconcile that?

And they can't because they seem, it's like God is schizophrenic, you know, I mean, or, you know, that there are, he's got multiple personalities.

And so then we begin to, to look at what has your experience of father been like? And then we come back to the lived experience so that we can begin to see that they are making God in somebody's image. Then we can stop the, we can put a hold to this image of God, this, we can contain this and say that, uh, this is, this is some sort of image that you have, whether it is truly reflective of who God is, we don't know because it is coloured by how you will have, you know, experienced father or mother.

Ann: I'm, I'm glad you brought that in because I was going to say my own experience is that when I realize, I'm feeling that way about God, I will always be puzzled because I know intellectually that's not who God is. 

Right. Like I, I I intellectually believe that He is compassionate and is loving. I do, but it's. When I become aware, it is almost like I become aware that how I live, how I, how I live in the relationship with God is as if he was not, compassionate and loving. 

Right. So that, that separation nor that dissonance, at least the way I experience it, it's not even so much that it's God to schizophrenic, but I don't understand, why is it that I know God to be a certain way, at least intellectually, and I believe it intellectually, why is it that I can't experience him that way, or that it's um, No, I won't even say I can't experience him that way, because I do, I have experienced His love before, real, the graces, the consolations and all that. 

But why is it that when I, if I observe myself, I I'm still behaving like I am fearful. Like I'm, like, I can't be confident that his love is truly, truly, yes and that it's truly unconditional. You know, um, and so can you say maybe here a little bit about why, how that links to trauma? Why is it that someone like me can have that kind of dissonance? 

The True Self and Survival Mechanisms

Edwina: I would say that that goes back to the internal family systems. That does give us a lens through which we can understand this you know, um, experience of why is it that, you know, I am legion, that's a part of me that totally believes.

And then there is another part that totally cannot trust. And yeah, so it does come to this, uh, come back to this whole sense of, well, this is the way I, I have, Uh, the way I understand it, , as I bring together the different, , strengths of psychology as well as spirituality, that the self, the course of the true self, the I whom God has created, is created good.

And it is created in union with, uh, with God, with others. And it is, it is one, but as I go through life, my system, this wonderful system that God has built into me, which ensures my survival, will do whatever it takes to keep me alive.

And even if that means that as I go through and experience, I learn, my system learns, okay, if you are in, let's say, uh, if I grew up in a family that, that is quite authoritarian, as most Chinese or Peranakan families can be, yeah, so they, it's very authoritarian, or, you know, there is one very strong parent And you do as I do, you don't question, you don't do, you know, whatever, you learn, you cope.

In order to survive as a child, you have to depend so much on your parent. So, you learn to, you, your system will assess the situation and find the best way to survive this childhood. So either it could be, you know, in rebellion, or it could be in appeasing, fawning, pleasing, or shutting down. Yeah. And then this becomes your way of surviving.

And this is how a part forms in a sense, a part of you that almost becomes the place where you, you have to live. It's not who you really are, but this is who you have had to become in order to survive. So this is not your true self.

Okay, so, but the true self is still there. It does, it, it doesn't go away.

Edwina: What God blesses us with never goes away. He gives, once he gives, he never revokes his gift. So it is here, but this part that has emerged for us to survive. takes over and we live here, and we begin to believe that this is our identity. I'm an angry person. I am, oh, I'm lazy. Oh, I am whatever, fill in the blanks.

But this is not who we are. And, and so when we begin to do the work of healing, And we begin to see, oh, but then I know that God is good and God is loving, and I have had experience and actual, actual experiences of God, as you described, you know, being so loving and provident and really choosing me unconditionally, you know, without any reservation, saying you are my beloved.

I have experienced that. It is this part that is in touch with that, but the part that is in survival, the part that did not experience that, cannot reconcile, you know. So while I have had this, this other part has not, has not experienced that because it's stuck in the experience of, no, you're only important insofar as you meet our expectations.

Yeah, maybe that was the script. Yeah. You did not obey, and so, no, you go stand in the corner. No, ,you threw a tantrum. No, you will go to your room. No, no, no, no, and so, conditional, yeah, your, your acceptance, your being loved is, is only on the condition that you abide by whatever the authority figure is demanding of you.

Rebuilding a Secure Relationship with God

So this part has not tasted of the goodness of God. It is locked in that old experience, in the wound, because whatever is, uh, wounded, , it kind of gets stuck. That, that is where the flow gets stuck. So now we have this strange experience of, but I know God is trustworthy. He has my back. He will provide, but how is it that I also don't trust him.

It's because that the, the part of me that doesn't trust him is locked in this, that this part that has only and ever and only experienced being loved when they have done what is pleasing to the other. Mm. To the one in authority. Mm-Hmm. . So this one is not convinced. then there is such a person who will love me even if I want to do something other than what you ask of me.

Ann: Yeah, and not even, not just not convinced, I want to say, does not want to find out if she might be mistaken. 

You just, you know, so scared, so scary, I don't even want to risk testing and finding out later that, you know, I have had that experience so many times when I've even felt in prayer that God is telling me, test me.[

I know you don't believe me test me and then I regurgitate the scripture back to him, but you know, we should not test the Lord our God. 

Edwina: Yes, yes, we are our own devil's advocate 

Ann: kind of , in in that sense, um, yeah so, I mean that goes into a different area of like the, the the whole process of rebuilding of building a new safe, um, securely attached relationship with God that I never had in my life with anyone, you know, kind a thing.

But, uh, even I was wondering, okay, what I wanted to bring our conversation to, from what you said was, um, I think a big part of this, the script, when we talk about scripts, there's definitely an element of thought. 

The Body's Role in Holding Trauma

Ann: And you know, because it's thought, but I think what most people don't realize, and I never knew until more recently, and I became conscious of it is that the script is also in the body and the script that's in body isn't so much thought.

[So it's not words, but it's like nervous system states. Yeah. 

Edwina: Yes.Yes. 

Ann: system states where my heart will begin to race or my breath becomes shallow. I feel a in my chest or my gut is clenched or I'm just already frozen and I'm in a defensive posture. And I think back.there were times when, you know, prayer is just all over place. 

I mean, in a good way as well because, uh, you know, for me, it was really the spirituality that led me even into this journey of integration and discovering trauma and all that. But now, I look back and I recognize the difference in times when I'm praying from, within, a very, um, defensive state. And it almost felt like I was defending myself against God. I had to do this or pray this.

To find, to feel okay that I did what I'm supposed to do. And hopefully please God versus the times of prayer. Where I actually can, I actually end up relaxing and being brought home into myself in a way that I don't usually feel at home in my daily life. 

Edwina: So yeah, it reminds me of, um, uh, You know, like in the Ignatian tradition, when we talk about the discernment of spirits, and when Ignatius talks about, uh, being, you know, coming to a state of indifference, which means that you are at equilibrium and you are at peace, in a sense, with whether it is yay or nay, you know, whatever comes.

It's okay. And I am in that state of equilibrium, um, as opposed to, you know, being like, you know, so I need this God, you know, you have to grant me this. That kind of urgent, you know, uh, need that colours the entire prayer. And this, I would say, would be closely related to, possibly a survival state where you don't trust that actually God has me, where I don't trust that God has me and actually it is well, you know, and even though it looks like it's going south, I will be safe.

I am safe and God has me. I, I'm not there, but I'm, you must save me. It's the disciples in the boat. Don't you care that you, you know, that we are going down? Don't you care? How can you be a saint? And it's like, seriously? Seriously? 

So it's that sense of, of nervous energy, of, of anxiety. It's a survival state, literally a survival state that you're in. And prayer can be like that. Yes. And there are other prayers where you get to the point of Jesus in Gethsemane where it says I don't want this, but if you do, okay.

And to actually, 

Ann: yeah, to actually be genuinely okay with that. 

Edwina: Yes, 

Ann: I think a lot of people don't realize that they can't, even if they're recognised. So I think, I think people who have been building their spiritual practices, or, you know, sincerely seeking God for some time, probably many of them would already be able to at least notice their states. Okay. They may not understand. They may not have the language of the nervous system states, but they may recognize that I can't surrender or that I'm still afraid.

What they don't realize is that the response or the answer, so to speak, to this problem that they are experiencing isn't just, isn't, isn't strictly in the spiritual realm, but that it could, it has to do with trauma that's still living in their body, that perhaps the default state that their nervous system often is in is one of fight or flight, for example, or freeze, and that, that is one big reason why learning about trauma or for example, Revisiting your wounds from your family of origin, your childhood and healing those wounds actually can open up that space for a more, you know, to be able to experience in your body, trusting God.

Interconnected Dimensions of Healing

Edwina: Yes, and I think that's, that's, absolutely important because everything is connected anyway. 

We are, we are a whole, but we are many parts. So there is a spiritual dimension, there is a physical dimension, there is an intellectual, mental, psychological dimension, there is a social dimension, and all of these are interconnected.

So, you know, this, it, you cannot really treat in silo, in a sense. Yeah, so I can't really address a spiritual issue, let's say my relationship with God, without touching all the other things. What is my relationship with myself? What is my relationship with others? What is my relationship with my ancestors in the past?

You know, and all of it, all of it. What is my connection to nature? It is all connected. And, uh,

Edwina Podcast Recording on 2024-07-02 at 08.51.07: of it.

AUDIO: I would, I would dare to say that when there is an [00:54:00] issue in one form or another, whether it's a physical illness, whether it's a psychological distress, whether it's a spiritual distress, um, whatever it might be, somewhere there was an interruption, there was a disconnect or there was a block, and that block mostly, I would say, Would have, would have its roots in some form of trauma.

And trauma doesn't, doesn't happen. Uh, you know, just like as an event, it can be small t what they call small T trauma, which is usually flies under the radar. You know, it's how you were treated over a long stretch of time, maybe as a child or, uh, you know, a situation where, say children grew up. in poverty or, or in war, war torn countries, you know, that sort of thing. 

Of course, war is a big T trauma, but just growing up in that kind of, of situation, um, is traumatic, does cause, uh, an interruption to a natural flowering and flow in how, of how the human develops. So, and trauma can occur, uh, any, anywhere from, you know, a little bit of stress or distress, you know, to all the way to, you know, a major trauma, traumatic event like a car crash or divorce, um, or even changing your nationality, your citizenship, migrating to another country and picking up citizenship there. Things are actually traumatic, but we don't recognize it as such. We just say, well, this is life, get on with it,you know.

Ann: I think it's, I like to quote, um, I think Dr. Peter Levine, who says that trauma is what happens in the absence of an empathetic witness. I think, you know, and both him and both he and Dr. Gabor Mate often stresses it's not just the experience of the incident the situation. 

A lot of it is, what was the interior experience and were you alone in it? Or was there, Or were you, or was there someone with you and then that was processed and you were held and then that, is potentially traumatic.

Environment or experience that you had can be resolved, or then it would no longer be lodged in your body. Right? Or else it actually becomes locked in your body and becomes worse I think, over time. It, it, It influences all your all your future, I mean, your current and your future responses.

Edwina: Exactly. So it's the, it's not just the event.

An event could be traumatic, but the actual trauma happens when it happens. In the absence of being, as you say, witnessed or held, or that there was accompaniment and someone to co regulate with you back into an equilibrium state. Yeah, whatever, whatever the event was, or the situation or the circumstance, would be something that would be hard for the person to digest, whether it is, psychologically, spiritually, whatever.

Yeah. But so being accompanied in a way that would help them to metabolize this so that it can be digested and can, it can become part of my story without.

Without,without the, the hurtful, harmful elements, it can be, yes, this happened to me, the, the effects of that emotionally, spiritually, psychologically have been assimilated and it has, whatever needs to be let go of, can be let go of.

Religion as a Source of Trauma

Ann: Okay. Could you say something, um, about, because this is a group that, , I think more and more, I feel a lot for and probably feel called to, um, to speak to, and that is people who have experienced faith or religion, um, or, or our spiritual practice as somehow has as part of what traumatizes them.

Okay, so, um, because I think, I think that's something that a lot of people who suffer from it do not realize that that could be a big reason for their struggles.

So, for example, just now we mentioned religious scripts. And I think religion can be practiced in a way that is actually very defensive and is itself possibly a trauma response. And that can, we can have people in our lives who are very religious or who are themselves, maybe hold religious authority because of their office.

Uh, or, you know, maybe they could be a leader in our community, whether they're lay or they're ordained. Um, and that, and the way they may not realize it. I think they don't. For them, their faith has become part of their coping mechanism and defense mechanism, and maybe it's become ours too. I know for the longest time it was for me.

It's so interesting so sometimes people go, Oh, uh, people experience, let's say this negative side of religion. And then they go, I don't want anything. I don't want to have any part of this anymore. I don't trust God. I don't trust the church. I don't trust religion because, you know, and I think that's because something in them is doing this job is saying that there is harm here.

This is that there is harm that there is harm being done to me here, and this is not okay. So I want to say that I should, I think that something right is actually happening within them. Even though the response is coming out as, I don't want anything to do with church. I don't anything to to do with God. I don't want anything to do with religion.

Edwina: Yes. 

Ann: I, you know, it's, it's because it's been, like I said, um, enmeshed. religion or their experience of religion and the source of possibly abuse or harm has become connected right uh but then we also fortunately many of us have experienced people who are deeply religious um, very spiritual who put our nervous system in an entirely different kind of state, it makes us feel seen, held, allowed to not just exist. 

I think, you know, that, that we, that we can be right. So I was just wondering, this is my own observation and my own hypothesis. I'm not, uh, you know, quoting anybody here, whatever that. Well, so it's that the issue is not necessarily religion per se or religious experiences per se but whether it's going to mass or hearing people preach or, you know, or who they are, whether it's priests or religious, but that there's something to, how religion has been incorporated sometimes in the energy that has been incorporated into something that's fear coming from fear.

And then there's a rigidity and sometimes even an oppressiveness and intrusiveness. Versus the I want to say perhaps religion at its best,

You know, allows us to come into touch with God's expansiveness and spaciousness and allowingness and love that gives us that space to grow and in our time, you know, take up the that we need, does not hurry us or rush us or make us shrink.

Could you say something about your, what you've seen or observed or experienced in that? I think it will give some people hope because sometimes people, all they have is this negative experience. And maybe there's a part of them that's still really wants to, wants to be with God and, and, and, you know, their faith is important, but there's this other part that's really just pushing all this away.

You know, because it's like, I can't take this anymore. I'm so sick of it. Maybe help. Maybe it'll help. 

Edwina: I, I think that, that this is a very real, uh, phenomenon, or I would call it a phenomenon. Um, there are so many ways to, to answer this, but okay. Would

say that, yes. There is a large part of our Catholic faith that is very, um, well,

okay, when you think Catholic, you, you tend to think Magisterium teachings, you know, and it's, it's quite structured and, uh, 10 Commandments do this and, you know, all that kind of thing. And there are.

Many, and I would say even those who are in authority, uh, in the church, who,again, it is not that they are not sincere, because I do believe that they are utterly sincere in their desire for God. and in their, uh, in their, deep love for God. Yeah. And, but again, to touch back onto their lived experience, if your lived experience has only told you that you are safe and you are loved and you will go to heaven, only if you obey the rules.

Yeah. You, and if at the slightest. You know, infringement, please go to confession or else you cannot receive the sacrament, you know, you cannot receive the Eucharist, things like that would be the way to win heaven. And our languaging in the church also has this kind of, of flavour. 

You have to earn your right to redemption, never mind that Jesus came and he saved us all, but you know, you still have to earn your way into heaven and your right to be saved.

Amen. In some sense. Um, I'm not here to, to talk about the, the theological niceties because this is not the place. But I know that there are many well meaning people in the church also who sincerely love God and who sincerely believe that this is the way. But I do wonder whether or not that this is the way is a result of their lived experience and some former in their relationship, their primary relationships even, that have caused them to develop this kind of image of God and this image of the Church and to have, therefore, this relationship. And if they, and these would be the ones who would hold a very hard line, and can be very punitive.

And so if the people who are under them, yeah, uh, either as congregation or as spiritual directees, uh, they experience them as hard and, you know, kind of punitive or, you do this, uh, and you are saved. You don't do this. you know, God help you, um, or rather God won't help you, then there could be this kind of, uh,well, if this is, if this is God in this issue, then I want nothing of it as a response.

Yeah. And so if there is something of this flavor, then yes, I, I would say no matter what, Whatever the, the person who is feeling this kind of ambivalence towards God, towards church, and they are different, God and church. So

Ann: Amen to and thank God for that, that God and church are not the same.

Edwina: They are not. They are not. So, so even if they do have this kind of resistance. 

The Role of Resistance in Faith

Edwina: You know, the one thing that I have come to truly deeply respect is that all resistance is sacred, and it has to be reverently approached, especially resistance, because it does protect something that is very vulnerable, that is something very core, that invites us to take off our shoes, to be with it, and to begin to listen to what it is saying, and to the wisdom that It actually carries.

So, and it might be saying that this is not the God that I know. This is not the God that I have experienced. So, why? Why, why must I? Why, you know, like to, to, to come back to your own experience where you actually feel God just telling you, why don't you test me? You know, come on, push the envelope. Yeah. Or as, I can't remember which saint this is who said, you want to sin, you sin bravely or don't sin at all, you know, just do it well.

If you're going to break the 10 commands, break them all and break them well, and see, you know, yeah. How do you, how will we know the loving, the love of God is, as Jesus says, right? The one who was forgiven more.

Ann: Mm-Hmm.

Edwina: who experienced really that, that God is love. Yes. Then you will love even more. Yes. You will love even more. But if you have not experienced that kind of love and all you have experienced are dregs, what you will give is dregs because you will not dare to push the envelope.

Ann: Yes.

Edwina: So that is the wisdom.

Ann: Mm-Hmm. Yes. I have found in my journey. God is the most radical of, of them all, you know, um, uh, he's, if anything, like, you know, say based on my old scripts, God is the one that's leading me astray. Like all the time I'm like, 

Are you sure? You know, like seriously, like you're asking me to step, like to kind of like to step a little bit out of the line that I've been so trying so hard my whole life to hold, you know to just stay on that narrow line. You know, it was God who showed me that I don't know what it is to live. 

I'm not myself. I'm not alive. I'm living out of, there's so much timidity. Um, you know, it's like, and that's so not me because I mean, you know, I'm actually, I think he created me to be very bold and, and, you know, I like to explore and creative, but there is so much fear in me that has been instilled in me to not make a mistake because you will pay,

Edwina: You will pay. You will lose everything.

The Journey of Self-Trust

Ann: And, uh, it's so much so that I think one of the broken, or the relationship that's been severed, I think for all trauma survivors is also the self-trust. An inability to trust our own assessment, our own judgment, uh, what we are picking up, our own intuition, uh, you know, so much so, and it's not, I'm not even talking about, oh, I must trust everything that, you know, my, my first, my, my gut instinct says, but to even dismiss that outright or to lose that trust that given time, I am able to build an assessment to make a sound judgment about what, what is happening here, what God may be saying, and, and that I have the authority actually, to make a decision on my own behalf that God has given me authority, as person who's living my life.

Edwina: Yes. 

Ann: But how really trauma I think has made. Us, so many of us relinquish that authority, you know, to some external source, uh, and we may think it's God. And it's so funny, right? Because some of, I think some of us have experienced that we, we think it's God and we kind of like, okay, you may decide and then he throws it back at us.

Right. It's like, no, but I, you know, you decide and then we're like, no, no, no, because I don't want to make the wrong decision. I don't want to make the wrong decision, so you, you know, you decide. but it's, Yeah. 

Edwina: It is. Yeah. I remember, you know, I mean, you know my story, right? So, you know how I, I entered the convent, I left the convent and all of that.

And one of the, one of the things that I've learned in this long journey really is that the one prayer that God never answers, God, you tell me what to do and I will just do it. He suddnely goes deaf.

And he doesn't. And every time I ask him, what do you want me to do? And then he always comes back with, what do you want to do? 

Ann: And, and you know, I, one thing I love about God as I've come to know him is because he tailors, he tailors even how he's present to his child, each child and, and not just each child, but each child where he or she is at.

Right. And one thing that many trauma survivors will attest to is we have no sense of self and we don't even realize, I think when we're younger, we don't, even, we don't even realize that we have no sense of self. So there you were telling God, You know, like tell me what it is, you know, it's the Mary thing, right?

The fiat, right? Like, let it be done to me to your will, right? And we think that's so praiseworthy. We think that's like the ultimate, you know, like the, you what we want, we want to be able to, you know, attain to. But we forget Mary was fully herself. At least that's what, you know, you know, we believe as in what makes, what makes a fiat beautiful is she, She had full capacity of her will.

So when she gave that will to God, it was beautiful because it was hers and she offered it. What I never realized in all the decades growing up and after so many years of, you know, trying to be like Mary, you know, to, to be obedient and to be, to surrender to God was that actually I didn't even had a grasp of my own will.

Edwina: Yes. 

Ann: You know, I just wanted to make sure that I didn't do anything to offend him to displease him. What kind of gift? Is that? Like, what can I say about a self will that I offer to God when it really isn't mine? Like, he has given it to me and I have not taken ownership of it. He has given me the freedom of will and I have not experienced and, you know, exercised that freedom.

Reclaiming Free Will

Trauma. Now I've realized. Trauma. took that away from me. and I never realized that. And the very tricky thing I think about being very immersed in religion or religious language is that trauma survivors can totally miss that about themselves, that they don't even realize they don't have a sense of self because it's so easy to just then listen to an external locus of authority telling you what it that you need to do or what you must do.

Edwina: Yes, exactly. Yes. And because most of the time trauma survivors like us. We live in our home away from home, which is one of our survival states. Either we are fighting to, to appease somebody or to please somebody to keep ourselves safe or whatever, you know. And I, I guess for me at least, this is where my part came, came to the fore.

And it was so desperate to know what is the right thing because it was so bad. The, the, the repercussions, if I were to make a mistake, were so horrendous, yeah, and it felt devastating, but that was because it wasn't even me in my true self making this prayer of offering, yeah, it was from this, this survival state that needed to please a God that was me. 

Yeah, you know, in some sense, punitive. So I, I, I remember that one of the, this particular incident where, at that point, I thought that I was losing my faith, that I entered the convent to lose my faith. So, and, and I did share with the, the, I think at that time I was still a novice. So I, I told the novice miss, uh, we were in community and I told.

The group and the novice mistress said, you know,why do we have to do it like that? I feel like a pawn on the chessboard, you know, like in God is when it's almighty hand is coming down Is that you move here and you move there? And I did not realize It's only now that I look back that I realize that that was me beginning to come into my own sense of self and my own sense of being and free will that was waking up, that was resisting this whole thought of that, you know, God is someone that you give, you give yourself to God and he will just place you anywhere.

Yeah, that kind of a thing. Yeah, I don't know. That was probably not what they intended to say, but that's how I received it And this whole part awoke. Yes, 

Ann: I know. I just want to say that, yes, it may not be how they intended it, but sometimes it's just also maybe how people have internalized it interpreted it.

Edwina: Yes. And 

Ann: pass it on. So it could be both, you know, 

Edwina: it could be both. Yeah. So that I, I can't speak for them. I can only speak for myself and how that, how I received it.

Ann: Mm hmm. Can I, can I tell you a bit of a, my moment of something equivalent? It's so funny. Marian consecration.

Okay, sorry, I this may sound controversial to some people.

Edwina: Your 33 days to morning glory. 

Ann: Yes, which is the contemporary version, right? of, of the Marian consecration. uh, the contemporary version of the St. Louis de Montfort version of true devotion to Mary.

Edwina: Yes, yes. 

Ann: So for me, someone gave the book to me and, um, so I, like you, like you mentioned earlier, I think my relationship with the Trinitarian God is actually it's richer than my relationship with mother Mary. And that used to give me anxiety and issues like, you know, I'm not really Catholic, I'm not Catholic enough. 

You know, I don't understand all these people with devotion to, to Mary and all that, but then again, since everything points to God, I thought, okay, at least, you know, I know I'm building this relationship with God, but it was something in the language, I guess, especially of, the original, I think, I'm sure now which century, but I guess it's quite a of few centuries ago, right?

Um, About that you make the Marian consecration. When you make the Marian consecration, you're saying that all the merits. Okay. So this is where you're going to like those, the language, like all the merits I may accrue in my life, I give to Mary to, to distribute and, you know, kind of use, uh, as she wills. Uh, in a sense, I, um, you know, that sense of, uh.

It is no longer mine. So even if there are spiritual merits That I have accrued, I give to Mary to, to give away. Right. So, so that's like the epitome of, you know, trust in her motherly love and in God's trust in her as well. That she will use the graces, you know, as needed in the kingdom. Right.

And I remember, this was many years ago. This is about, I think this is more than 10 years ago now, when I. When I read that a part of me just recoiled, recoiled because okay, and

Edwina: it was a visceral experience. 

Ann: It was a visceral, yeah. Now, now I understand so much more as to why I felt that way. Okay, because when in your whole life, you've never taken up the ownership of what was given to you as yours. 

And when you've been always taught that the nobler thing, the noble thing, the holier thing, is to give away, You Or to tread, right, to give away, to prioritize others or to give away to someone else who knows better, even if it's that true. Um, without you having that free will of saying, I've owned this. I know what it is to be me, to for this to be mine.

And I choose freely without duress, without guilt, without shame to make a gift. Of this, you know, so I never, so as a trauma survivor, I've never reached that point. I hadn't healed at that point yet to even have that deep sense of self.

God is saying this is yours and I gave it to you and it's yours to choose to keep or give away. It's yours, right? Your life, 

Ann: Your gifts, your talents, whatever kind of thing. It's yours and no one has a right to take it away from you without your consent. That's, that's what it means to say free will. I gave you free will. Yes, yes. But that has not been my experience, 

It always seems like, um, in order to be approved of, affirmed, praised, loved.It is to perform. And it's to perform that, actually, to be able to perform that. I don't need this. I'll give I'll prioritize somebody else. Oh, yes, you know, this obedience, this this trust But I think that time when I was reading that book, I had healed enough to actually have that.

So just like the story you shared to do that sense of self is beginning to emerge and protest And resist. No, I am not ready. I don't want to do this. You This is not for me. This is ridiculous. 

I'm Sorry. I know I'm not this part of me, kind of like, you know, and of course there was the, that manager part of me who is the uber Catholic, the super Catholic was like, oh my God, tsk tsk, you know, what is this?

What is this recalcitrance and, and rebellion, you know, uh, you know, and the old me would have gone like, oh, that's sinful. That's my sinful nature.

That's my sinful nature coming up and it should be silenced, it should be suppressed, you know, and all the more I should will myself to surrender to God and this is, this must be what God is asking of me because this is not what I want.

I mean, that's how distorted I used to you know, my, my, understanding of faith, 

Edwina: I think it's quite familiar to all of us who have grown up Catholic

Ann: Yes! And which is why I I think I also want to talk about this share this because I've realized that's not that's not what God wants because that you know God wants us, wants me to be fully alive and fully human and, and all this, you know, it's not about looking at some point that maybe it might look like that at the end of a journey perhaps, and then to say that that's, you know, it's just about reaching that point of, let's say, total surrender, complete trust, or whatever that is. That for him, it's not about that. 

It, you know, what he wants is each of his children to really flourish, to know how loved they are, to grow, it's like, it's like the trees and everything else in creation, I mean, there's a time for it to die, but there's a time for it to be birth.

There's a time for it to grow and to strengthen and to flourish. There are seasons, there are seasons for dying, there are seasons for thriving, 

And all that was not present in my very passionate and zealous you know, religious existence, my Catholic life, which was such a big part of my identity.

And, and, and, and I think that's why now I so want to help create awareness that for those who really desire to have a deeper, fuller, real relationship with God, like really to be able to trust and maybe ultimately someday reach that kind of total surrender that we don't quite know what it is, but you know, we, we we have a sense that that would be very beautiful.

It's beautiful if it can be truly, freely given.

Yeah, it is, it is amazingly, incredibly beautiful, and I think even now along the journey, sometimes we are given moments of grace where we taste a bit of that, that we are able to give something that was difficult to give or that was sacrificial, but it wasn't given out of obligation or duty or guilt but freely chosen.

The Importance of Developmental Stages

And there's something so empowering and life giving and I want to say holy. About being able to experience my ability to say no and to draw a boundary and say not yet I'm, not ready. This isn't right for me now. This does not honour my dignity, my readiness now, you know and to know and believe in my bones that god delights in me saying no, you know, because if I'm a toddler spiritually, and maybe I may well be a toddler spiritually, you know, and it is developmentally appropriate for a toddler to keep saying no, no, no, to say, to make the differentiation that this is mine and not yours.

And I think for a lot of trauma survivors. we would say something. A lot of times is certain developmental stages were interrupted and taken away from us. And so we become adults without those. Parts of us effectively, emotionally being matured, like, fully mature. So maybe we need to revisit that part, those parts and be unashamedly, mature. you know, a toddler or a teenager.

Edwina: Yes, exactly. It's just 

Ann: in safe spaces.

Edwina: All this, all this is, it depends on whether or not you realize that you are a toddler. It's just hard if you think you're an adult and you're flying and when actually you're not. So yes, it is. But, you know, having said all that, and I totally agree with what you said, um, there is, when I look back on my own journey and all the yeses that I made, you know, with, yeah, like you, with, with great sincerity and devotion and love and all that, and yet, and not knowing how much of it was colored by trauma, by my own lived experience, , And a lot of unfreedom because it comes from a place of fear rather than love.

Not that love was not there. Yeah. Yeah. But it's a kind of a distortion of love that love is for me only if I Et cetera, et cetera. Yes.

And yet, even when I did those things, I made those yeses out of all the goodness of my heart, you know, that I had there with all the sincerity I was in possession of, he received. That God received all of that and through me and in spite of me, move me along to the, to help me to grow into the, to the place where I began to see that, Oh no, so this is actually not. Yeah. Yeah. I'm not actually whole hearted and why am I not whole hearted? So I had to go through the whole thing of I'm not whole hearted.

Oh no. And so therefore, you know, guilt and sin and I need to try harder. And then he patiently waits with me, you know, and in and through people who would help me, first spiritual directors, and then later on, uh, counselors, therapists to help me to get a sense of myself as a person and to know the gift of who I am.

Yeah. And, and through friends like you, who, you know, we could share. The struggle, the confusion, the, the what is this, this is who I thought I was. And this is, you know, this was what I thought was, this is what I thought surrender means. This is what I thought unconditionally loving God and others and all that is. And then I'm discovering it's not. And then there's this whole sense of disequilibrium and, and chaos. As, as the Lord, in a sense, refashioned me. And we, and he helped me to rebuild a sense of self, except that it was a really long journey and it hasn't ended, right? I mean, it's still ongoing, thanks be to God.

Thanks be to God.

Ann: I. No, absolutely. I affirm that. I also echo that it’s so important to have a developmental frame when we talk about the journey as well, you know, and, uh,yeah.

And so I'm also very aware that even this conversation probably will land most with those who are probably at that point where they've said a lot of yeses to God along the way, they're really sincere and trying and they've done whatever they could, um, you know, to, to draw closer to God, but, uh, aware as well, or becoming into greater awareness that they are still stuck, or maybe God has started giving them that grace sometimes, you know, he reveals in, you know, in stages, right.

That actually. There's more or actually this is what you were not ready previously to realize and now I'm telling you, you know, because God is the God of truth and I think he just, you know, he just wants us to see ourselves more truly and how he loves us so completely. We don't have to avert our eyes from that, which is ugly and, um, you know all, all those things.

But only, only with his grace can we do it, of course. And he gives that usually in stages,

Edwina: Yes.

Ann: Very slowly

Edwina: Yes.

Ann: Yeah. 

So Okay, I think, you know, this has been very interesting conversation. I didn't have a specific. You Idea of what it would have and what it would be like.

And, and, I really hope that, that, I hope that it opens some doors for some people who, who listen to this conversation. And like I said, especially those who really desire to be set free to love God and love others, uh, maybe love themselves. Maybe they've begun to realize that they, don't know how to love themselves and or feel guilty.

And particularly for those who feel or who don't realize maybe that they are actually trapped by their idea of what it means to be faithful, their idea of what it means to, you know, to be a good Catholic, to, to be Christian, to be a disciple that,

Edwina: yeah. 

Ann: And hopefully this will give them, you know, some permission and hope to maybe test God a little. If God is inviting them, you know, it's just like, he is so much bigger. Then we ever can imagine.

So yeah. Is there anything else you want to add, um, before we close this conversation and conversation? 

Curiosity and Healing

Edwina: It's just that I, it, as always, it has been an absolute privilege for me to be here.

And I really do hope that what, what we've shared here can bless you. Those who are listening and to invite them to be, to lead with a bit more curiosity into the things that maybe they've taken for granted in their own lives. Like, how do I relate with God really? I know what I believe, but how do I live that?

And is there, is there any kind of discrepancy and, and to be curious and not judge, judgmental about that. I think that just, just offering a bit of curiosity will already start to open, begin another conversation and maybe begin the work of healing and integrating who I am and all these different parts.

That I maybe never knew I had and, and perhaps then that could flow into my relationship with God and and therefore also with others and with all of creation, everything is connected.

Ann: Indeed. Indeed. 

Final Thoughts and Gratitude

Ann: Thank you so much for saying yes to this conversation for your 

Edwina: My joy. my joy. 

Ann: for your experience.

Yeah. And, um, Yeah. Until the next time inspiration strikes, because you know, and I'm going to invite you again at some point, of course, because There is just so much to this, so much to this, that I know people  are also hungry for, not  just learn more about, but I think to even just hear our experiences, you know, because usually it's a very lonely experience.

You don't, it's not easy to find other people who speak this language or who who are making this particular journey with this, you know, with this dimensions kind of like, Thrown in as well. 

So, well, thank you Edwina. And until the next time.

Edwina: Thank you.

Ann: Say goodbye to you for, I mean, like for now. Bye. 

Thank you for listening to Becoming Me. The most important thing about making this journey is to keep taking steps in the right direction. No matter how small those steps might be, and no matter where you might be in your life right now, it is always possible to begin. The world would be a poorer place without you becoming more fully alive.

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