Exploring Safety, Trust, and Healing in Faith (with Brya Hanan LMFT)

EPISODE 74 | EXPLORING SAFETY, TRUST, AND HEALING IN FAITH (WITH BRYA HANAN LFMT)

Brya: It truly does help us to understand what it would mean or what it would look like to have, you know, that earned security with our Lord. And even, I would say too, with the church too. Sometimes people's experience of the church also can be a reflection of their early experiences with their caregivers, right, or a reflection of the trauma, right, and that trauma lens too, of how much they feel safe enough to connect with the church.

[00:00:30] INTRODUCTION
Welcome to Becoming Me, your podcast companion and coach in your journey to a more integrated and authentic self. I am your host, Ann Yeong, and I'm here to help you grow in self-discovery and wholeness. If you long to live a more authentic and integrated life and would like to hear honest insights about the rewards and challenges of this journey, then take a deep breath, relax, and listen on to Becoming Me.

[00:01:05] INTRODUCTION TO BRYA HANAN
Ann: Hello again, dear listeners. Today, I have a very special episode for you. It is a conversation that I have been hoping to have and to record for you for the longest time. So, what you're going to hear in this episode is a recorded conversation with my friend, Brya Hanan. Brya is a licensed marriage and family therapist and life coach who practices – or lives and practices, in the United States of America.

I came across her Instagram account sometime last year and her posts on the different kinds of family dysfunctions and the kind of dysfunctional roles that different members in the family can take. They really, really spoke to me at that time because it reminded me of the journey that I had been on in the previous several years, when I was learning about my own family of origin, beginning to recognize the ways that it was dysfunctional – beginning to recognize the ways in which I have been operating in very rigid, dysfunctional roles, not just within my family but in my whole life.

So, anyway, we got to messaging a bit back and forth and, I think, following one another's Instagram, and we found a lot of resonance in each other's work. So, we've been saying we would like to try and have a recorded conversation for the Becoming Me podcast. But Brya is also a young mother, and those of you who have young children will know just how unpredictable life can be. And so, we've tried several times to schedule an appointment and things just fell through. And finally, this time, when we made this date, we thought we're just going to have a recorded conversation – like, literally, let's just catch up and talk about stuff that we've always wanted to talk about with one another and just record it, and then hopefully that can be good enough or that will be suitable for the podcast. So, that's what you're going to be hearing.

And we left it up really to the Holy Spirit, because there were so many different things that we could talk about, and we ended up discussing what it means to us to feel safe with God and some elements of how feeling safe within our communities of faith, within our families, and how that's related to our feeling safe or our not feeling safe with God.

Anyway, I think throughout the season, I have spoken quite a lot about what holds us back from becoming the person that God really created us to be and what holds us back from becoming clearer about who we are. And a lot of that – the foundation for discernment, the foundation for really growing in freedom – is safety. If we don't feel safe with God, we can't really do anything else, because everything is going to be predicated. Still, our energies will still be focused on how can I feel more secure, more in control, all right.

And that's not the kind of condition that would make it possible for us to just blossom and bear fruit in being who we are because that requires trust, surrender, joyful kind of freedom, going into the unknown. It requires courage, risk taking – all of that exciting and also scary stuff, right? But the foundation underneath it all is safety – safety in God.

So, I hope you enjoy this special episode that I recorded with Brya and if you have any questions for her, for me, you can find us on Instagram. If you link to the show notes, you will be able to get to her guest profile and you'll see the link to her Instagram account – that's where Brya also creates content and you can comment on a post or maybe reach out to her in direct messaging.

So, I hope you enjoy this conversation. I'm very excited because Brya, her work also kind of tries to weave together her faith. She's a fellow Catholic, right. So, she weaves together church teaching, psychology, neuroscience and inner child work – all of those things to provide encouragement to her clients in order for them to live a more fulfilling and authentic life. So, without further ado, here is my conversation with Brya.

Ann: Oh, so glad that we finally got to talk.

Brya: Yeah.

Ann: So, I was revisiting because I told a couple of people that I was going to do a recording with you and then they're like, oh, like, oh, like – which one is she? Or who is she? And then I reminded them about the Bruno thing. And then they were like, “Oh yes. I remember!” 

Because that was – I don't know whether that was one of your more popular posts back last year, as well because of the Encanto thing. But I think it spoke to so many people. And I was thinking about what you were talking about. So, around that time last year, when you were doing the Bruno post, you were doing a whole series on family dysfunctions, right?

Brya: Yes.

Ann: And I was connecting it to what I've been thinking of more recently and what you've also been posting more recently about feeling safe, you know – even with God, even with Jesus. And I don't know if anyone's ever made that link explicit, but that it's actually connected. Like our experiences of our family of origin is connected to, I think – well, how we feel with God, with God the Father or Jesus. And I think even which person in the Trinity we maybe feel safer with, probably, is also affected by our experiences of family.

So, yeah. So, I don't know. Initially, I wanted to, like, after last year – after what you did last year – I wanted to talk to you about family. Like you know, family healing – healing and family and why that's important to our life of faith because that's what you and I have in common, right? Like we are looking at trauma and healing, but through the lens of faith, of our relationship with God. We see this as very closely intertwined, I think – that you can't really make the spiritual journey, you can't really, really continue to make a spiritual journey without also, I think, having some healing or having some understanding of what's going on from the trauma lens.

I know this trauma language is relatively new and a lot of the saints whose writings we, you know, we read, and you know the saints that we admire, etc. They, they wouldn't have used this language, they probably wouldn't have that awareness of this. But that's also the beauty of, I think, the evolution of human consciousness. I think Pope Francis talked about that recently, actually – about how human consciousness evolves as well. And I feel that we are living in an age where it's very exciting that this understanding about the human heart, about the way we were created or designed to relate, is now kind of like being investigated in a more scientific way as well. We talk about neurobiology, inter neurobiology, neuroscience. And I know this is quite cutting edge, at least where I'm coming from, where I am in Singapore, I think it's this is even less talked about, and there are even fewer people that are aware of this. And I think some people may even look at it with a bit of suspicion, like what's this got to do with faith?

I don't know if that's your experience too, as well, even in the States. So, maybe we could talk a little bit about yeah – maybe about your experience also; why these two things kind of come together and why it's so important from the perspective of wanting to grow in intimacy with God. Because that's what everybody wants. I mean, for those of us who aspire for union with God, to grow in holiness. That's what we want; closeness and intimacy with God, right? So, what has trauma got to do with it? Why is it that we shouldn't ignore all this stuff?

Brya: Yeah, yeah. I want to just start by saying you know, I went through my graduate program starting in 2015 – so, not too long ago. And this was even talked about in graduate studies. You know, we said, we threw the word trauma around a lot but we never looked at it from this lens of what's happening in our bodies, and our brains, and neurobiology – all of these things that you're mentioning. So, I really had to figure this out kind of on my own.

And by being placed, you know, in a setting where I'm supposed to do therapy and heal trauma with very limited tools – with just, you know, traditional talk therapy. And then I had my faith. So, I knew, okay, we could start with prayer, we can invite Jesus in, invite the Holy Spirit in and kind of see what happens. And then my hope is that kind of Carl Rogers would kind of help me by creating a safe calm.

So, for those of you who aren't familiar, Carl Rogers is all about the client-centred, the client. The client-centred – there's another word for this but very strength-based approach where you're putting the client first and you're just doing a lot of “mm-hmm’s” and you're validating their feelings and reflecting back and creating a warm environment.

So, I was doing all of that, doing a little bit of cognitive behavioural therapy, where I'm supporting maybe how we think about things, to have a more rational lens. But what I was finding is it still wasn't enough. There was something really missing here, which brought me to an exploration of, okay, what is really going on. And just, I think my own personal story, my experiences, what's going on with me internally, that created also more curiosity about, okay, what is the missing link here that I'm seeing in my therapy with clients, in my own personal journey? What's the missing link that the – so, the other piece within my spirituality is I would go on a retreat or a conference or something like that. And it would be like, oh my gosh, this is so good. And I feel so much peace and I feel safety with God. This feels great. There would be something that would happen.

But then I would leave and then go back into a state of dysregulation, of hypervigilance. Or I would go into a state of hypoarousal, where I was kind of despondent and felt so lifeless and disconnected from others, and disconnected from God. I'm like, okay, so, something is off here because none of these things seem to be helping me to stay in a state of which I would.

And what I love about your work, Ann, is you use a lot of embodiment, right? And this language around the body and integration, and those were foreign to me. But I think that was the thing that was missing – of bringing all these pieces together and understanding how our bodies work, how the Lord designed them. And designed them for not only survival but also connection. And so I think – I don't know if I'm really answering your question, but that's kind of the lens that I bring you and how when I hear that, I think of the journey to get to even having a conversation like this.

And I think what you're asking is, you know, why does this kind of matter, right? Or how does it connect with God? – Is, I really believe that when we approach God, we approach Him with our bodies, right? We not only approach Him mentally and spiritually, but we come with, you know, nervous system, we come with our breath, with different mental states. And I think that's what matters. Why it matters is because if we want to really, fully experience Him as safe and have that sense of, I think too, of constancy, of like knowing not only mentally the Lord is safe, the Lord is good, but to feel that as like a steady anchor in our life, we have to get to know our bodies really well. And then kind of translate that into, okay, now I can understand and now I can bring that to the Lord.

I’ll pause.

[00:14:22] FEELING SAFE WITH GOD
Ann: Yeah. I mean, you're a marriage and family therapist, right? So – and I'm going to try and weave that dimension into what we're talking about because one of your recent posts was telling people – I mean one of your recent posts on Instagram, I should specify – okay, so, listeners here are wondering what posts is she's talking about.

It's talking about it's safe to let Jesus see our wounds, something like that. And for me, one of the things that I've been realizing, that I've been growing in in recent years, is the sense of felt safety – not just with Jesus, but more in particular with God, the Father, who was actually the person of the Trinity that I probably felt less safe with. I think Jesus was the more approachable one for me, you know, for the longest time.

Brya: Yeah.

Ann: But here's the thing. And then, of course, along the way, I realized that even with the person of Jesus, I wasn't – in the past, I didn't really feel safe with Him. And I didn't know that, in the past, right?

Brya: Yeah.

Ann: These are things that, I think it's only on hindsight, when you've become more safe, and then you realize what being safe and feeling safe actually is like. Like, once you have that experience and then you can compare it to what it was like before and then you realize, whoa, even with God, I was hypervigilant. You know, like we talk about this term hypervigilant. Like you’re kind of like always scanning –

Byra: Yeah.

Ann: –make sure that things are okay, that things in my relationship with Him is okay. And I didn't know anything else because, well, that was the norm, I guess, that I that I felt. I think it's always a little tricky when we start talking about family of origin stuff because it feels like we want to look for somebody to blame.

And I think that's even trickier in the context of our faith when, you know, we're really big about forgiveness and reconciliation and all that thing, that I think a lot of people – I, myself included – at first, entered into this journey with some, I wouldn't say, ambivalence. But there was a bit of resistance because, like, is this really the thing to do? Is this really what God is inviting me to do? Because if I do this, I mean, I can't help getting angry.

Brya: Yeah, yes.

Ann: You can't, you know – part of the healing process, right? You're going to feel angry because you're going to see things that you didn't see before. But my experience was it was the Lord who led me into this journey. I was seeking Him. I wasn't even seeking specifically to heal anything like, about my family or about myself. In fact, I would say, I didn't even realize the extent to which my family was dysfunctional. I didn't even realize the extent to which I was wounded or dysfunctional because the language I knew first, was the language of faith. I mean, I had some basic knowledge of psychology –  you know, psychology and all that kind of a thing. But it was always through the lens of I want to draw closer to God, I want to be more like Jesus, I wish to have the life that He promised me, I want to be more fully alive. You know, it was always through that lens.

And then I realized that the cross that He said I must pick up, in order to keep following Him, included looking at, like, my life and my closest relationships; you know, with my parents, seeing – even painfully, seeing painful truths that were very hard to acknowledge. Because it really – how should I say it? It really put me into disequilibrium, and I would say even put the family dynamics into disequilibrium.

Brya: Yeah.

Ann: One reason, I think, I'm more okay talking about this now – it's been more than 10 years since that started and you know, many things are very different, I think, in my own family of origin. We've reached a new kind of equilibrium, at least with me and my parents. A lot of healing has already taken place, even though a lot is also unhealed. But I see the hand of God in all that. And I'm so convicted that learning about what was actually going on in our families of origin because that connects to how we – what did you say earlier? Like, how we connect with others because I think, in the family of origin – in fact, how we connect to others, that directly also impacts how we connect with God, how we're able to receive His love, which even theologically, I mean, that's like the crux for everything, right?

Brya: Yeah.

[00:19:10] TRULY KNOWING THAT I AM LOVED
Ann: If I can't really, in a sense, feel safe enough to be loved by God, and not trying to fawn Him – I realize you know, I used to practice fawning with Him as well right – like, I'm trying to perform or trying to fawn. I did love Him, I did believe He loved me, but that was all I knew – that there was this fear, underlying fear and anxiety that if I didn't keep being good, that I would lose that. And I'm just going to, before I pause – and you know I want to hear from you. And with one thing because with you, I know I can really interweave my Catholic faith and this experience of healing and dysfunction.

I used to run to confession – like, run. And I know on one hand, we think, well, that's a good thing, right? I mean, we're often taught that we should run to confession, right, when you know you've sinned. Because you know, in Catechises we learn, sin kind of like – we're told breaks that relationship that we have with God.

But here's the thing, okay, and I know some people may not be happy with me saying this, but this is something I've journeyed through for years with my spiritual director and confessor, and you know, and he assures me I'm on sound ground.

Brya: Yeah.

Ann: You see, that kind of Catechises or when I hear that, and it fits the kind of insecure attachment style that I have. I have an anxious kind of attachment style. I literally cannot be at rest until I've gone to confession because I have an anxiety in me that my relationship with God is broken, which means that that something has happened to that love connecting me and God Until I go to confession and until I have absolution. Right, and living my relationship with God – you know, there was a shadow that I didn't realize was because I could still grow in my relationship with God, until a point when He pointed it out to me, actually. He pointed it out to me after I had – there was once I had a fight with my husband.

And when we were earlier in our marriage, that would really, really dysregulate us when we fought and we would both feel very insecure, like until we fix things. But that particular fight, we gave each other like a time. I just went off for my own time out. I cried about it and then I was talking to the Lord about it, and then I realized that the reason for the fight, or what led up to the fight, was my own neglect of my own needs. I had not been attuned to my own needs and therefore, had not been able to correctly reflect it to my husband, who had actually asked me if I was going to be okay, if he did something. And I said okay – and actually I wasn't. But I didn't even realize that I wasn't, right?

Brya: Yeah.

Ann: And so, I realized that, oh, the root of that problem was actually not my husband. You know, I’ve been neglected, I’ve forgotten, and I've not been attuned to myself. And once I realized that, when I met with my husband, you know – and he was very calm too, and I was like, “are you okay?” He said, yeah. Because he had also grown in his own interior connection with God and himself. He said, after I left in a huff, he kind of pondered about it. He said, is there anything that he did? And then he realized no, I think this is something Ann has to work out for herself, you know. And so, he let me have that space, right?

Brya: Yeah.

Ann: And the reconciliation was just so easy. It was like a – it was a non-event, you know? It was like oh, thank you so much for that space. And we both realized that the reason we could go through this with so little anxiety as compared to earlier in our marriage, was the faith that we had in our love was a lot more solid. We knew the love was there. We knew that this wasn't affecting that relationship, you know? We knew that the love was still going to be there and we had this space to work things out for ourselves before coming back together.

And then later that day, I queue – I'm the kind of person that don't like to stand in line, really a long line, just for to buy some kind of food. It's something that happens a lot in Singapore. Singaporeans are like foodies, big foodies, but I don't do that. But that afternoon, I decided to do that to get something that my husband really liked, that I knew he would really enjoy. And I was even waiting in line. So, it wasn't so that he would forgive me. I knew we were fine, I was forgiven, we were fine. But it was just that sense of you know, I still – I did snap at him, I yelled at him and I'm sorry, and I just wanted to get him that thing, you know – to let him know how much I loved him, right.

And then at that moment, I felt God tell me, “this is penance, Ann. This is what penance is supposed to be”. It isn't supposed to be, you know what you owe me. It's not what you owe me because there's nothing owed, right. And penance is meant to feel like that. It's like I know it's not necessary, but it's something because I love you and I really want to express, in a sense, the amends that I wish to make, not because I need to make amends in order to be okay with you. But because I love you and I want to make amends, right. And then I felt Him ask me, “isn't that wonderful what you experienced, what you just experienced with Henry? Why can't we have that, you know?

Brya: Aww.

Ann: Like that same thing. And that moment I realized what percentage of times did I, when I run to confession, was with this kind of confidence that you know it's that I can have that time to try and figure out first, what's going on with me. Why did this happen? Why did I fall into sin instead of like, I just need to get a confession to get this off my chest, to be okay with God? And oftentimes when I do that, what happens is I don't have that safe space to actually go in and ponder deeper about where it's coming from. I'm just very hung up about clearing my debt. You know what I mean? Like getting that sin wiped off the slate.

And then I realized that God was saying I want to invite you into a more intimate relationship, knowing that, if you feel safe with Henry, I mean if you feel safe with the love that you have with Henry, what makes you think that my love for you is not at least as strong as what your husband has for you? And of course, I know. And we would say like, cognitively I knew that. But from that day, I decided that, okay, that would change. And I stopped running to confession after that, in the same way as before, you know? I took that – yeah. So, yeah.

Brya: Yeah. That's beautiful. Yes, maybe it would be helpful, I don't know, if you've shared this with your listeners – but just expanding on what does that mean? To be safe and really defining that. Because that, to me, is a beautiful anecdote and shares what safety can look like, right – that trust that you're developing with your spouse, and the feeling of like, I can turn to him, and not because it's a debt or trying to, like you know, clear something, but out of love for him, right. I can do, go pick up the food that he loves, and I feel free to do that too. There's no there's no compulsion.

Ann: Yes, feel free to go ahead and, you know, explicate that a little bit, maybe – about how would I know if I feel safe with someone. That's good. I think that would be helpful for my listeners to hear.

[00:26:39] HOW DO I KNOW IF I FEEL SAFE WITH SOMEONE?
Brya: Yeah. So, I heard you say too, you're talking about kind of attachment style. And I really think our experience of safety comes from those very earliest years, right - early childhood years, where we're forming our attachment style. And to me, safety is synonymous with a secure attachment style. It's this feeling, right, where we can rest, where we can receive, we feel connection and trust and we have this felt sense that we are loved and we're going to be okay. And in the absence of you know, when we're talking about the family system, in the absence of our caregivers, we have this feeling inside of rest, that that caregiver will come back. We have this assurance. And I think that's a really big thing to highlight because we will move in and out of connection throughout our lives and that's so normal and healthy.

It's normal healthy to get into a fight. It's normal and healthy that a parent leaves the room or goes out of town or that we don't feel the connection or the felt feelings of feeling very close to God. That's all normal. But security, safety, I’m going to be okay, right – you can like just take that big exhale, right, and release. And to me that's what that means. I don't know – do you have any thoughts, or would you add to that?

Ann: Yeah, I think that sense, like you said, that connection – in a sense that love goes beyond what you can even concretely feel or experience right now. Right, so in the example that I gave with my husband when we were fighting, I mean clearly, it felt like that connection was broken. I mean, at the surface, I didn't feel at that time, that we were attuned to each other. But yet, underlying that, there was a deeper confidence and faith that this doesn't mean that we've stopped loving each other. It doesn't mean that he's stopped loving me. And it doesn't mean that if I don't fix this right now and if I don't try to make nice and you know, everything that would threaten the underlying security of the love, right – of the foundation of the love. So, yes, and I think my relationship with my husband is the first – is my first experience of a secure relationship and an earned, secure relationship. Yeah.

Brya: Yeah, that's beautiful. Yes, I’m learning that with my husband right now. We're developing earned security. We're not there yet, but we’re getting there. It's a great – yeah. It truly does help us to understand what it would mean or what it would look like to have, you know, that earned security with our Lord. And even, I would say too, with the church too. Sometimes people's experience of the church also can be a reflection of their early experiences with their caregivers, right? Or a reflection of the trauma, right, and that trauma lens too, of how but they feel safe enough to connect with the church.

[00:29:52] ATTACHMENT, SAFETY & FAITH DYSFUNCTION
Ann: Yes, I think that, this is where I really believe that the interior relationship, with interior journey is so important and why so many of the saints talk about the need to have mental prayer. Also, like you know, there needs to be connection, a direct connection, relationship with God that you're building, apart from the religious dimensions or aspects of the faith.

Brya: Yeah.

Ann: Because I think, ultimately, to have a secure attachment with the church, which is a lot more complicated because church is made up of so many different dimensions. And, yeah, I mean, I think the church is actually another example of a great big dysfunctional family, you know?

Brya: Yeah, definitely. Yes.

Ann: So, and then – so, the way to enter into that, like the way that I started entering into healing in my relationship with my family of origin, had to happen through my relationship with God and Christ, you know. So, I agree with you that there’s a dimension of church as well, but I think they're distinct. And unfortunately –

Brya: Yes.

Ann: – for many people they're not yet, maybe because they haven't yet developed that relationship with God. So, when they don't feel safe, not feeling safe with the church, that means not feeling safe with God.

Brya: Yep.

Ann: Yeah. So, that's where I think the interior journey is important to help people make that distinction, so that if you build that safety with God, I think that even if the journey with – I mean, both our journeys with God and with the church, I think can look messy. And I don't think it has to be like a straight, linear path of like you know, constant kind of like growth and everything. But see, that's where, also, if we have the deep security, that underlying everything, we're going to be okay, maybe we wouldn't be so panicky. Maybe we wouldn't be so panicked every time somebody feels like they need to take a break from church. You know what I'm saying? When they feel that, as part of their journey right now, they really don't feel safe, or they constantly get triggered.

I know this may sound a little controversial. So, this is what I mean by, for me, when I layer on what I'm learning and understanding about neurobiology, about trauma, about connection with faith, I can see why the contemplatives and the mystics, they always seem to have this sense of expansiveness. They're not the ones that they don't – they're not reactive, they’re not defensive. If you know the mystics and the contemplatives, they're in touch with the ground, of being. They're in touch with the expansiveness of God's love, they're not afraid. It's like from eternity to eternity. There's space, there's room. The Father is saying you can run, and you can play, you can trip. You're still within my love. And sometimes I feel that's the lack.

We don't experience that expansiveness in our lived experiences of faith, depending on the environment. I guess our family – sometimes the family, the way our family lives out our faith, could itself be very traumatic, traumatizing sometimes. I think you know.

Brya: Absolutely. Yeah.

Ann: Maybe we can say a little bit about that. What have you come across, where the way that faith is expressed, let's say in a family or in a community, might itself be traumatizing, without them realizing?

Brya: Yes, and that does come up a lot in my work. You know, typically a lot of Catholic Christians will come to see me. And I think what stands out to me is enmeshment. I think that's the first thing that stands out. Where there's this feeling or this experience, where you can't be a separate other, a unique sense of self. So, whatever's going on within that family or community group, we have to like the same things, have the same devotions or same understanding of the different teachings and how we apply it.

And if you challenge that, if you say, well, that doesn't sit too well with me, or I don't feel called to pray the rosary every day, I want to do a novena instead – or whatever it is, right – there's backlash, there's condemnation. And so, I think that's the first thing that stands out. Which is true in dysfunctional families, right? You see that enmeshment where people can have distinct, separate selves and explore their own interests. So, that's one thing, and then I would say, maybe going on the same lines too, of just abuse of power and authority too. So, that can sometimes happen too, I would say, within you know communities or different church groups.

[00:34:51] ENMESHMENT & SPIRITUAL BYPASSING
Som people start to question their reality. They'll come to somebody really vulnerably and share. You know, this is my experience and they're kind of gaslit or, you know, just made to feel like they're doing something really wrong or there's something wrong with them when it's completely normal.

I'll give you an example. I remember a client shared with me that she was discerning going into religious life and she was meeting with a mother superior pretty regularly. And in those conversations, she would share about her trauma and her experiences. And through those conversations, she was made to feel that there was something really wrong with her and she wasn't praying enough, she wasn't doing certain devotions enough.

And as she continued and maybe even started to believe that maybe that's true, she felt more and more disconnected from herself and also, like she's kind of going crazy because her lived experience, her felt sense, was that there's something else going on here and she would try to bring that to her, right. And there's moments where she was trying to be honest and fight through kind of that dismissiveness that she was experiencing from her, but she was still left with the same kind of message that she's just not doing something enough. So, I think that, to me, gives an example of that abuse of power – of not really listening to that person, what they're really saying and trying to draw into it just on a human-to-human level.

And so, yeah, I don't know if that would probably fall into kind of spiritual bypassing. And then, yeah, like I said, to gaslighting too. I don't think that's intentional, right. But I think what you were saying too, that when people don't have that felt sense of safety with God or have used religion to provide some sense of safety, right, anything that threatens that – how they've constructed that their religion, how they constructed God, they're going to push back, right. Because that's a threat to their safety, right. So, I think that's where it comes from. But unfortunately, that left additional scars for that client –

Ann: Absolutely, of couse.

Brya: – more wounding, right? And then she turned away from the faith.

Ann: Yeah, yes, And that's so sad. But yes! So, what you just said – you used the phrase that I think, I implied, but I didn't quite say it that way – but yes. I think when we use those who turn to the faith as a way to find safety – so, I want to come back to that because that's such a salient point and a very subtle one – because on the surface, what's wrong with that? I mean, that's exactly our faith. It’s what is meant to provide us with the safety. But our faith, in that larger sense, including the practices and sacraments and all that – they are not God. When we kind of like cling to – because we need that sense of safety so, like approaching our faith a certain way or certain kinds of devotional practices becomes kind of like our repertoire of this is what I need to do to be okay –

Brya: Yeah.

Ann: right, to be okay with God. And then, so, I expect others to do the same. And like you said, and if you disagree, that becomes a threat to me because you are threatening my system for safety.

Brya: Yes, exactly.

Ann: You're threatening what I understand, you know that will provide me with safety versus if instead of needing to construct a system that gives me safety – which I would say, I guess, it's kind of a coping mechanism for a lot of us, I suppose. It's a natural coping mechanism, right?

Brya: Yeah.

Ann: Of course, if we don't feel safe, we find a way to feel safe. That's what a lot of our trauma responses are as well. But when our felt sense of safety is not just constructed, but really, we are attuned to the Trinitarian God who loves us, then suddenly our horizons can expand. Diversity and differences don't threaten because that love that we are rooted in, that we are still feeling secure in, is a love that can encompass and embrace all and everything.

Brya: Yeah, right.

Ann: And I think even those who don't understand these terms, we often know, when we encounter someone, you can feel the difference between someone who really is openly loving and can help you get more connected with yourself and with God. And is really attuned to you –

Brya: Yeah.

Ann: – versus someone, regardless of the authority, the spiritual authority that they may have  - like in your story that you shared earlier, was a mother superior. I think a lot of Catholics will be thinking well, she can't be wrong. I mean, she's in the position of authority. You know, that's how a lot of people think about priests as well, or bishops – you know, people in spiritual authority. 

And if you already have this tendency to doubt yourself, I mean if you are already a trauma survivor, I think it's like it wouldn't even occur. In fact, you might feel guilty. You feel very guilty for doubting someone who you think should know better.

Brya: Yeah.

Ann: But that's so – but what we've been saying, that makes the landscape really tricky, isn't it?

Brya: Oh yeah, yes. It's so complex. Yeah, my story is also really different, in that I really thought that – and maybe you know, you're saying that too. You know, the Lord has been safe for me and I've always kind of seen – so, kind of going back to my family of origin, there was dysfunction that made me cling to God and I was like, oh my gosh, finally somebody safe. But I want to emphasize, it was a clinging, there's a grasping, where I can't fully kind of, I think, rest or see it.

It's so tricky because I think you're absolutely right – on the outside, looking in, it's like, well, that sounds beautiful. You found God, you were able to cling on to Him, and that's great. But what I loved – what you just said about the expansiveness of God's love. Right, it should really support your relationships with others too. You start to see God in others as well and you're not threatened by, you know, whatever it is that you're experiencing, that maybe gets you out of that place of connection and safety internally. Right, you're able to kind of move in and out with that trust that we've been talking about.

But what would happen for me is, I would move out of that safety and connection with God. And then I would be like, oh, this person's unsafe, they're bad, you're hurting me too much, I’m going to retreat from you. And so, this is kind of the dance that I played, not only with my parents, but with other relationships, especially close, intimate relationships. So, it was always this kind of reflection of more of, I think, anxious, ambivalent attachment style, right. Can I really trust you? No, I can't. Then I retreat and I withhold my love. And then I would go, okay, I can't trust anyone. No one's safe, so let me try to cling to the Lord.

[0:042:20] NAVIGATING FAITH & BOUNDARIES
But really, you know, I think how we come to terms with all of that, is that I was almost like using the Lord as a way to kind of cope. So, it was exploitative in a way. It wasn't truly like, no, I know that you're still the same good God who keeps me safe in these relationships, and it's okay to turn to these people and extend love, mercy, have dialogue with these people. Because you are the same good God that experience over here, right. Learning how to bring him into relationship has helped me to now experience being safe.

But I think you're right, like before it was not safe. But it's so confusing and complex because you have to do that interior kind of work to see that and to make those connections and to have that humility, understanding of oh, no, no, no, this was not the love that the Lord's inviting me to.

Ann: Yeah, you know, when you mentioned about the clinging, I so identify with that because that's how I was with God and particularly with Jesus. Because I said He was the one that I felt safe with. I think God, the Father, was always for me, kind of distant until that relationship was healed again, on Hi initiative. And so, that's the thing – that He was safer, you know? And when I would get disappointed, including my relationship with my husband, you know, in the past, it would be like, yes, see, so, that's why I can only count on God, like He’s the only –

Brya: Yeah, yup.

Ann: Like, He’s the only one that I can count on, kind of a thing, which isn't entirely untrue. But you can hear, even the way that that it's phrased, it's coming from such a wounded – you know, poor little wounded heart, right – that is that just doesn't want to, well, just doesn't want to be hurt again. And you think that maybe if I just hide my whole self in God, then I would never be hurt again.

Brya: Yeah. Yes, exactly.

Ann: And He's the only one that's safe. But of course, in our relationship with God, as it grows and matures, we realize that He's not always there for us the way that we think or imagine a superhero or a knight in shining armour is. He allows His beloved to share in the cross. You know, but that takes time. I think, like I said, when we do the interior work, our image of God, the way we see Him also evolves. And I think the relationship that we have with Him – the fact that we needed to cling to Him, actually means that, although He is the safe one for us, we still didn't feel safe enough to not cling to Him.

So, that's what I meant, that it was only much later then, I look back and I realized, oh, actually I wasn't really feeling safe yet. I mean, He was the most safe among all the relationships that I had. I turned to Him as my refuge, right? But the fact that I felt I needed to cling to Him is so different from, you know, I can just let go and I can just run and I can just – because He's with me. He's always with me. Yeah, you know, his love is always covering me, right? 

Brya: Yeah.

Ann: Yeah, even as I talk about that, I think, the sensations in my body shifts when I think of how expansive, and deep His love is. Deep enough, even to referring to what, you know – coming back to what you mentioned about the people that we felt unsafe with or that we feel, unsafe with.

So, in the past I didn't know how to handle those relationships, right. It's also because the religious part of me is very strong. There's a very strong ought. I ought to be loving, and then I imagine loving must look a certain way. I had no concept of boundaries. So, to me, boundaries – it was almost like boundaries is not love but boundaries is a lack of love.

Brya: Yes, yeah.

Ann: So, I really identify with what you mentioned about enmeshment, whether it's in families or communities. It's almost the sense of like, if we really love one another, we would have no secrets. We would know everything about, like everyone, what's going on. We can intervene and interfere with anyone, everyone's life, and that's what love is. That is what it means to be family ,right, or to be community. I think, I know there are some faith communities that kind of operate like that too. It's almost like there's this enmeshment, you know? Like, into people's personal lives or decisions, even personal disarmaments because they believe, in some sense, that's what it means to be community, that's what it means to love one another.

So, for me it was only when, really sometimes things go really south or there was some kind of big rupture, and then I would be left so bereft and heartbroken and I'll be wondering, I don't know what I did wrong. You know, and these were the patterns like, since my youth, into my young adulthood –  every few years there would be something like that. 

Brya: Yes.

Ann: There'll be something like that, you know, and eventually it was that that made me realize I don't know what I'm doing – what I'm not doing enough. So, it's still that idea. What is it that I'm not doing enough? I'm praying, I have my daily devotions. I know devotions, I frequent the sacraments, I go for regular spiritual direction, for retreats. I'm trying so hard. What is it that I'm not doing enough, of that this still keeps happening, you know? And ultimately that was, I think, the entryway into the Lord, kind of like inviting me into inner child work, inner child healing work, into starting to learn about family dysfunction.

I didn't even have that concept before. You know, because I didn't think my family had any of the very obvious external markers. There was no like, addiction or, you know, alcoholism. There was no big kind of – you know, the usual kind of thing that you would think is problematic. So, I didn't – I never thought that there was, you know – you could really call it dysfunction. I mean, yeah, there were bad, there were problems in relationships, but I never imagined that could actually have such a big impact on my capacity to relate, to connect and to love.

Brya: Yes.

Ann: And I think it's experiencing that God's love is so vast. He can give us that time to make it from, like what you mentioned earlier. Let's say, that we needed And He's absolutely fine with it. That's why I realized we can say that, oh, that wasn't really love yet, but He's like, yeah. But that to Him, in the sense, that was love, that was what you were able to give. And I was pleased with that. That's the other part that blows my mind.

You know, that He still delights in our imperfect, you know, kind of like offering. And if at this point, it overwhelms my nervous system to be in, let's say, the presence of this person or something like that, and I really, I can't – He's okay with that too. There's no guilting or kind of like, no, you should have stronger faith than that. So, that's what I used to do to myself, you know, like come on, you should – you know, with God's love you have the strength to. Again, conceptually, theoretically, true, but concretely, practically – we grow into that and sometimes it takes years.

Brya: Yes, yes, yeah.

Ann: So, the difference between – like what I've learned, the difference between kind of like what you mentioned earlier – spiritual bypassing, or using what we know to be true in our faith, which is a universal truth, kind of, is always true. But using that to, in the sense, bypass where we actually concretely are because we're in the flesh, right. We're in the body and where we are right now at this slice of history, in this place and time, is a particular point of the journey. And we may not be at that point where we can fully reflect whatever it is that we just kind of like said about love or forgiveness is. And that bypassing where we are actually, ironically or paradoxically, keeps us from actually moving closer to the goal or to that destiny, you know, to being able to actually have that capacity to live it.

Brya: Yep, yes, yes. I’m just like – I'm completely vibing with what you're saying. It's so profound. It's so profound and I resonated with it so much. I really feel like you're my soul sister from Singapore, right. Like my long-lost sister because I really just connect with you on so many levels.

Ann: Yeah, same here. That's why I've always wanted to talk to you. It's just so hard to find because of time difference and you know everything. But, yes, I love how, like in this conversation, I’ve just been able – I'm just weaving everything in. There's the healing, the trauma, the talking to someone who understands from the inside whether it's like being Catholic. Also, the unique challenges as well, that being Catholic actually puts on us as we learn about trauma and heal from trauma, because sometimes it is a challenge.

[00:51:36] WHEN OUR FAITH BECOMES AN OBSTACLE TO HEALING
It's kind of even in some ways, it can be an obstacle, right? Have you ever come across that? Like in your own life or in your client's life, that the faith, in a way they've interpreted or understood the faith or the way that the faith presented to them – I guess, like the story you said earlier – actually becomes an obstacle to their healing?

Brya: Oh yeah, absolutely. Yeah. It's really hard, right, when our faith – the way that we've constructed it, right, does provide us a sense of like a security blanket for us, right? And when it no longer functions as a soft, warm blanket and it's now cold or rejecting or you know, we don't just get those feelings – those warm and cosy feelings. It can really make us just struggle on that interior journey and maybe even be afraid to go inward because we've lost the thing that was kind of anchoring us, if you will, right.

So, I find that that sometimes when we – which is why we have to be so careful in doing this work because some of those things we might recognize that it's maladaptive or we don't have a healthy relationship with maybe our faith or understanding or faith or these communities. But to take it away from somebody too soon could actually be more detrimental because they find that they're lost right, and they get really kind of stuck and then even more afraid to go inward because you know, I’ve read somewhere abandonment is death for us, right.

That feeling of you taking something away that was sustaining me, even if it wasn't healthy, right. And now I'm afraid and I'm alone and I don't even want to go inward, I don't, I just – you can kind of become like and that hypoarousal state where you're just kind of collapsed, right.

And so, that's what I find – in that interior journey, that, yes, it's good to kind of draw people's awareness to those kind of security blankets and the ways in which their faith might be actually hurting them. But we have to go slow into that awareness, right. And also, I think, bring in other supports and new understanding that won't completely rock them so that they're left feeling abandoned. I hope that makes sense.

Ann: Yes, it does. I was just thinking of another kind of experience where – I don't know whether you have encountered that, but I see this happen quite a lot – where an individual may begin to realize that, so they're searching for, let's say, more life, more freedom, deeper union with God. And then they come – they start on the interior journey. They realize, okay, I’m going to make the interior journey. And then at some point, then they realize there's a tension between the direction they're taking now and how their environment and dynamics, their current commitments, the way they're – you know, like the communities they're part of, for example, that how these are actually holding them back because they are not in agreement with the new direction that they're taking.

And so, I think for a lot of people, for a long time, they're going to be in this tension of I'm both trying to move forward. So, they may have found, for example, a spiritual director that's really good, that's helping them grow inward. But at the same time, the direction that they're going is facing some kind of subtle – you know, may not always be directly spoken. Sometimes, it is disapproval from the faith community that they already belong to for a long time. And at some point, it almost feels like they have to make a choice.

Like you know, if I want to keep moving forward then so, it's not so much about anyone taking that away from them. I agree, nobody should. And I think, wise spiritual directors or therapists also would be very careful that that has to be on the Lord's prompting, and you know the person's choice.

The person must have sense that it's their agency. It's not an easy decision to make, but that's what I often kind of like see the difficulties that people face at a certain point in their journey. And some make it through and then they find new life, like they find that you know, a new life, new dimension, new community, and they continue to evolve and grow and flourish. And others just seem to not be able to make that move forward. And then they just continue either in that stuck – or after a while, I think, because we don't like to be in that tension, sometimes they even kind of like just go back a bit more to just, this is what I've always done and with the people that I've always done it with. But there's a sense of sometimes, a lack of fulfilment and unhappiness because there's a part of them that has really tasted that there's something more than this, you know. But yet, this is you know – and all this is within. That's why I say it's so interesting that all this is within our faith or religion. There's nothing, you know, externally to practice. Everything could be - these communities and groups could be practicing their faith very correctly, you know?

So, sometimes, people are also a little confused, like so what? How is this that – well, everything I'm doing is right. I mean, I’m doing everything right, I’m doing what I'm told to. But, yeah. So, I see trauma work or the kind of healing in your work, and the spiritual interior journey. It's often going into the unknown –

Brya: Yeah.

Ann: – with God. Kind of like Abram, when God told him to leave everything he knew and go to the land that he will be shown by God.

Brya: Yeah.

Ann: I feel like when we choose to heed that call to leave what we know, we often don't know, at the start, what's in store for us or what the journey is like. But that's why, I guess, it's really like it's a journey into the dark, but in faith. Like sometimes, you feel like you can't have the same kind of certainty that you had before, when your certainty was based on checking off certain check boxes. I'm doing all these things and then I feel security because I know I've done all the things I'm supposed to do.

Brya: Yeah.

Ann: You know, versus walking in the dark with God. It's a mystery.

Brya: Yeah, yeah, absolutely. Yeah.

Ann: Yeah.

Brya: Something that's coming to mind for me as you're saying that – I work with a lot of moms and I think their faith tradition, their experience maybe, before motherhood, is when I’m feeling spiritually dry and I want to experience connection, I go to either adoration or reconciliation, right. And they find that they're in a place where they can't easily go run to adoration or reconcillliation. And it's really unfortunate because what they hear is, you're being bad, you're not being a good enough Catholic or Christian – which, I think, you're kind of touching on too, right – they're not doing enough.

And these are the ways that you are going to experience God, to experience that relationship, that connection with God. And if you don't do these things, then you're out of that connection, right. And so, when you're saying that I was just thinking about kind of those stories of when they do start to heal and seek God and His expansiveness, His great love for them, and that it can even reach them while they're doing the dishes or changing diapers, right. I think that's more the tension that I see is that, okay, I’m starting to trust that and believe that, and it may be experienced, but this voice tells me, no, I’m being bad or I need to go run to confession right now, or run to adoration because that's where I will experience Him, right. Or I didn't do my daily rosary today and you know they keep hearing like, right, you don't love God enough, or you're not doing enough, right. So, that came to mind, that example.

Ann: Yeah. I’m looking at the time. I think we need to start kind of like try to land the plane, but I wanted to do – what you shared brought something in to mind.

And what you're saying, I feel so much for those mothers. I have – I mean, they're not clients. Usually, the young mothers are not clients. My clients tend to be either before they have kids or they're already in mid-life, like you know, and older. But I have a few friends that I've kind of like journeyed with and you know, young mothers and like yourself, like you. I mean, life is unpredictable and hectic. And there was a – I don't know whether you know who James Finley is – Jim Finley.

Brya: Sounds kind of familiar.

Ann: Okay, it's interesting. He's with the Center for Action and Contemplation. Thomas Merton was his novice master. So, he was, for a few months, for a few years, sorry, you know, kind of like going to be a monk in a monastery, and then later he left. He has like ia double specialization in trauma and mysticism.

Brya: Oh wow.

Ann: So, he was a psychotherapist. So, both he and his wife actually was a psychotherapist. His wife has passed on. But he has also this very deep contemplative Christian mystic, you know, kind of a background. And it's incredible how he weaves it too. But I mentioned him because I was listening to this podcast where this young mother, she was a co-host, she talked about, she took a class from James Finley – that James Finley was giving about contemplation and it included, you know, they were invited to do like a 20 minute a day contemplative practice and she's a young mom and she's a single mom. Okay, so it was impossible. Like she would try and wake up extra early to sit for 20 minutes and one of her children, will suddenly wake up and she has to tend to them.

And so, once, during class she brought this up and she said how frustrating it was. She can't seem to get into this time of connection with God. And James Finley told her, okay, come. Her name was Bree, I think. He said come. He said, okay, we'll do a bit of roleplay. He said you be Bree and I'll be God, right. And then he told her, Bree, you know, this morning, when I watched you wake up and you know, get ready, and you wanted to enter into that time of contemplation with me, I just loved you so much, I couldn't hold myself back. I just needed to rush into the bodies of your children so that I could hold you and so that you could hold me, so that you could hug me.

Ann: Right, and for me, I don't have children like myself. But even me, when I heard that, I teared because to me that illustrates exactly. I mean, that's someone who knows how – you know God's love is – how can it be so conditional and so narrow that you can only meet him in adoration or in confession or, you know, in “official” sacred space. Like, you know, a consecrated church. So, that will bring us to other discussions that we won’t have time for today – about different kinds of understanding and theology, even within the church, about that.

But I think those of us who are seeking integration and we are on this path, even if we don't quite know exactly what we're doing, like, I never – I didn't know all of these terms that I was able to use with you today. It was really through seeking God and seeking Christ. He led me to the experiences, to the resources to really, all this stuff like that I didn't even know exists in the world. I mean, and I realized He's telling me all this – all this is important. In a sense, all this is part of becoming more whole, becoming authentic, and I think that's what you know, right. I think you also liked the quote from St Catherine of Siena about how being who God created us to be will set the world on fire.

Brya: Yeah, yes.

Ann: So, it's like, that's what this journey is about, isn't it? Becoming more ourselves, becoming more the person that God created us to be, fearlessly, unapologetically, joyfully, faithfully, you know.

Brya: Yeah, yeah, yes.

Ann: Wow. So, I think I know today, that's probably all the time we have right now, but I really hope we can do this again and can just continue the conversation, Brya.

Brya: Yeah, there's so much to say, so much.

Ann: I know. Was there anything you'd like to just kind of like – you know, some last comment or something to close up today's conversation?

Brya: I'm just thinking of St Teresa of Avila, who said it's foolish to think that we can enter heaven without entering into ourselves. And so, I think this, you know, as you're saying that, I was just thinking of her wise words, of that's really what it's about, right. As we're, you know, allowing the Holy Spirit to lead us and we're really trying to pursue the Lord, but He does bring us into our own interior life, right, to meet Him. So, I love what you're saying too, just like following that invitation and being really curious and open, right – because there's a lot of things that we will see that might frighten us and be very confusing and very hard to grasp and name.

And I think you said too, these terms, too, are so foreign to people. It's not common knowledge, it's not something that we talk about regularly. So, I think, with that curiosity, you know, going and seeking, probably what is how you started the journey – you know, reading books and Googling things and trying to listen to new podcasts to gain more and more awareness with that curiosity.

Ann: Yes, and spiritual direction played a big part. Having the right spiritual director because that's very important too. Because I think both for spiritual directors and counsellors and therapists, if you find the right one, like a good one, and the right fit, it can do so much good. But if you meet – unfortunately, if you meet the wrong one, they could actually inflict more harm.

Brya: Oh, yeah, yeah.

Ann: So, I also try my best, sometimes, to help to teach people kind of like what to look for, how to get a sense of whether they found a good fit, you know? So they know if it's not, yeah. But yes, and you’re right – the mystics, St. Teresa of Avila is, you know, a mystic. And when you said that quote that how can we enter heaven if we can't enter ourselves? It reminded me of, you know, St. Francis, also is known to just have, you know, these two questions that he asked: who are you, Lord? And who am I? Who are you, Lord, and who am I?

You know, and for me, indeed, those are the two questions that kind of like shape the interior journey. And the deeper we – the more we can answer that or we discover or answer, the more we are capable of loving others as well. Yeah.

Brya: Yeah, absolutely.

Ann: So, thank you so much, Brya, for your time and for being on the Becoming Me podcast today. And you know, God willing we'll have a third conversation, because you know it's – this is as much for me as for my listeners. I mean, it's really – it just gives me so much life to be able to talk to somebody who can get all these dimensions that I grapple with too.

Brya: Yes. No, thank you so much for inviting me. It's really such a gift to be here and to speak with someone, too, who I can tell just gets it because it's hard to chat with people. They're like wait, what are you saying? And yeah, I appreciate that too. I feel that sense of solidarity as we go on this interior journey together.

[1:07:26] AN INVITATION
Well, I hope that today's bonus episode gave you something to ponder. I hope that there were some parts in there that landed with you, that resonated with you. And while I'm not giving you specific praxis prompts for this bonus episode, I invite you to just sit with how you felt as you listened to all the things that Brya and I were talking about.

Pay attention to the shifts in your emotions because you know, somewhere in your emotions; how your body may have reacted as you listened to certain parts of what we were talking about, there's a message for you, there’s something for you. There’s an invitation for you to be with yourself, especially with the more vulnerable, the wounded parts of yourself.

I invite you to just, you know, be gentle with yourself and maybe look for someone, a kindred spirit, a safe person, to share any thoughts, any insights or any feelings that may have emerged that you would like to be heard. So, until the next episode, I wish you God bless and happy becoming. 

[01:08:47] CONCLUSION
Thank you for listening to Becoming Me, where new episodes drop every first and third Wednesdays of the month. Most important thing about making this journey is to keep taking steps in the right direction, no matter how small those steps might be. And no matter where you might be in your life right now, it is always possible to begin.

The world would be a poorer place without you becoming more fully alive. Don't forget to visit my website at becomingmepodcast.com and to subscribe to my newsletter as well as to this podcast. Until the next episode, happy becoming.