Why Not Going To Church Can Be A Trauma Response

EPISODE 129 | WHY NOT GOING TO CHURCH CAN BE A TRAUMA RESPONSE

[00:00:00] Brya: But that is the big problem, is that there's disconnection now. And it's not an authentic faith that they're building. It's a faith that is rooted in, like, to your point, I need to like win God's approval, I need to just be pleasing, please God, and keep working hard to almost be enough to earn your right to heaven. 

[00:00:22] INTRODUCTION
Welcome to Becoming Me, your podcast companion and coach in your journey to a more integrated and authentic self. I am your host, Ann Yeong, and I'm here to help you grow in self-discovery and wholeness. If you long to live a more authentic and integrated life and would like to hear honest insights about the rewards and challenges of this journey, then take a deep breath, relax, and listen on to Becoming Me. 

[00:00:51] SPECIAL GUEST: BRYA HANAN
Ann: Hello, everyone. Today, I have a very special conversation to share with you. And that is a recording I made with a friend and companion. And in some ways, I'll say colleague you know - colleague on this journey of integration and healing and discipleship - and that is Catholic trauma therapist, Brya Hanan. 

[00:01:22] And some of you may know her as the author of a newly published book called befriending your inner child. Brya has been appearing on many different Catholic podcasts to talk about this book. And I think it's safe to say suddenly now, you know, just awareness of Brya and her amazing work has just exploded overnight because of the exposure.

[00:01:46] PERSONAL JOURNEY OF FAITH AND TRAUMA
Ann: So, in my own journey of interior integration, those of you who have been following my work know that I'm really in the crux of grappling with trauma, with becoming more and more aware that in the first place, that I'm a complex trauma survivor, what that means of having my eyes opened to who I am, developing a new sense of self.

[00:02:10] And all this can be really, really tricky when it's also intertwined with our faith. Now, for me, my Catholic faith has always been a huge part of my identity. What I've only more recently come to realize though, that a big part in the way that I'm Catholic was from a defence mechanism.

[00:02:27] Okay, what do I mean by that? What I had not realized in my whole life right until more recent years, is while that relationship with God that I have there is genuine, it's true, and my love for my faith is true. But the perspective through which I’ve come to interpret and understand, experience and live my Catholic faith has been very much through a survival instinct, okay. And that is that part of my history of trauma has led me to pledge onto this identity, a role that I've taken on, this good girl, the good catholic, or even, you know, aspiring to be the perfect Catholic in some ways, as a way to feel secure about who I am.

[00:03:13] Now, this may all seem a little like, huh, for you. If this is new to you, I invite you to stay and listen to the rest of the conversation that I have with Brya. 

[00:03:24] UNDERSTANDING TRAUMA RESPONSES
Ann: If you haven't experienced what we're talking about, which in this conversation is about how not going to church or not going to mass as a Catholic.

[00:03:32] Now, that's a big deal, right? How not going to church or not going to mass could be a trauma response. Now, this is something that's very new to many people. It may sound scandalous to you. It may sound offensive, or you may start thinking " are they trying to come up with some excuse for why people can not go to mass?"

[00:03:52] I invite you to reserve your judgment to listen with an open heart, an open mind, and, you know, really just let God just speak to you through our conversation. I don't know what it is that He may want to say to you, okay? But the Holy Spirit will know and I hope that you receive what you're meant to receive.

[00:04:14] At the very least, this is my hope and I believe it is also Brya's hope that hearing this conversation between us may give you access to compassion that you couldn't touch before, for yourself and maybe also for others in your life that you know are struggling to go to church or struggling to attend mass.

[00:04:40] There is always such a bigger reality to what we are aware of and it takes so much time sometimes, so much pain, but also so much openness and willingness to be opened up by grace for us to see more and more of that reality. And I really just hope that this conversation that we recorded today would be an opening of a door, even if it's just to crack that door a little bit more open for you, for you to see yourself and others with greater compassion, with more patience, and you know, just with more love and curiosity about what is actually behind the actions or the behaviours that you can see. So, enjoy the conversation. 

[00:05:31] RECONNECTING WITH FAITH
Ann: So, Brya it's so good to see you again, to see your face. It seems like we talk so infrequently.

[00:05:39] Brya: I know, I know. It's so good to see. But when we are together, it feels like the time went by really fast. It's like, oh yeah, like it's like a long-distance friend.

[00:05:50] Ann: Yeah, I think if we were actually in the same city and if we, you know, when we do arrange a meet, we probably would need to set aside a whole day just to talk. That's usually the case for me when I have someone that I have so much, you know, so much in common to talk about. So, it's been about actually almost exactly a year.

[00:06:07] I was checking the last podcast episode that we recorded. And then in the last year, so much has happened in both our lives and you've now become a published author. Congratulations.

[00:06:18] THE IMPACT OF TRAUMA IN A CHURCH SETTING
Brya: Mm-Hmm. Thank you. 

[00:06:20] Ann: And to be very honest, I didn't think I would be able to have another chance to not even just talk to you, but to record a conversation with you in this season of your life, because I was expecting that you'll be so busy and I know you have been.

[00:06:33] So, I wanted to ask you when I was praying about today's conversation, like this time, like this particular conversation, you were the one that kind of suggested like, hey, maybe we could, you know, do another conversation recording. And I mean, I was delighted at the invitation. I just was wondering, like what prompted you to make the invitation despite being so busy?

[00:06:55] Brya: I think it's really the safety that you provide. It really feels like just talking to a friend. So, I knew it would be comforting. It wouldn't feel too overwhelming, even though the circumstances around me are very overwhelming and stressful. And I have been very busy. I knew that when we would talk, it would feel like just the sense of release and flow and synergy that, I could definitely make space for.

[00:07:23] And so, it's really because of you and, how I feel when we meet and chat. And I also believe in your podcast and what you're trying to do that I think motivates me, inspires me to want to give more of my time.

[00:07:37] Ann: That's such a huge compliment. And I'm so, so grateful to hear that. You know, it's always nice to hear that you're a safe presence to someone, you know? And I was just reflecting about how our paths crossed and our journeys together. So, I think 2021 July was the first time I saw any correspondence between us. I think it was on Instagram that may have been when I come came across your Encanto family dynamics thing.

[00:08:03] Brya: Oh, yes. Uh-huh.

[00:08:04] Ann: Yeah. And then I think, I checked out your website. I bought your inner child course, which by the way, I remember thinking, because it was pretty dense in terms of the workbook that there was a lot of texts that you, there's a lot of content that you wrote. And I remember back then thinking like, oh, this could, you know, this could become like a book or something. And now it has. I mean, you know?

[00:08:26] WHAT INNER CHILD HEALING CAN DO
[Ann: Yeah, so, inner child healing for my own journey was also what I started with way before I had any notion or even the language about trauma. So, inner child healing was where I started with and then learning a bit about family dynamics, like family of origin dynamics, which is why your post on, you know, the different roles that dysfunctional families kind of like have - you know, the golden child, the scapegoat and all that, that spoke to me.

[00:08:54] And then I started reading about, Parts, part work. And if I'm not mistaken, because we've been talking for a while, parts work also came after inner child healing for you, right? 

[00:09:08] Brya: Yes. Yes. Yes, yeah.

[00:09:10] Ann: And then, most recently you and I, like the language we've been using to talk to each other and what we're excited about is learning about the nervous system and you know, how the nervous system is involved in the In our responses to trauma. So, it's all linked. But it's like the body is so much more present now.

[00:09:29] Brya: Mm-hmm. 

[00:09:30] Ann: Yeah, it kind of enfleshes all these other stuff, right? Talking about inner child and parts work. But now we're like, oh, this is how it feels like in the body. And it becomes so much more real. Yeah. So, I was really looking forward to talking today with you about, you know, trauma and faith as usual. But it's just been such a big part of my own awakening journey. I don't have like huge traumatic experiences.

[00:09:57] I read the transcript to one of a recent interviews and I realized I think in your own life story you have Bigger T kind of like traumas in your life as compared to me. And although of course, we never compare trauma. But I'm just saying, you know, like for me, part of my struggle with all of this is I can't really point to like big incidents in my history that to me would explain why it is that I have all these symptoms. I know I have these symptoms, you know, of freezing up, of being terrified. So, there are all these things I know I feel, but I don't know where they come from, like for so long.

[00:10:41] And then I never really thought that they would get in the way of me growing in faith. So, that was the other thing I used to really believe that faith would be the solution to all these, you know, anxieties, fears, terrors. I thought that if I just built a stronger relationship with God and with Jesus, all these other things will go away, you know? 

[00:11:08] I saw it as He's the healer, right? And I'm not saying of course that that's not true. But you and I both know, like, there's more to that, that God wants for us in the way that He heals us. It's not so simple as running to Him, although we can. Not so simple as just burying ourselves in prayer, or in church in retreats, or never-ending praise and worship, because sometimes that feels good, you know? It takes you away from the pain, right? 

[00:11:42] Brya: Mm-hmm.

[00:11:43] INTEGRATING THERAPY AND FAITH
Ann: So, I thought, okay, maybe I can pause here first and, and ask you. You're a Catholic trauma therapist. Why did you decide to kind of make that a big part of the focus on your vocation as a family and marriage therapist? 

[00:11:59] Brya: Mm-hmm, yes. Great question. So, when I entered this work, I really entered with my whole self. And I'm Catholic, practicing Catholic, and I knew my faith was important, but I didn't know how they can be integrated.

[00:12:14] Like you, I kept them kind of separate and saw healing, through faith only. So, I think you probably read in that transcript - it talked about like, I didn't even think that I needed therapy. I thought like, I just needed to pray more and frequent the sacraments and, you know, go to mass more regularly and that would solve it.

[00:12:34] And it was more my lack of diligence in those areas that was creating my symptoms, not all this other stuff that I've learned about trauma and the body and the nervous system. And so, I share that in common with you.

[00:12:47] And another piece too, I want to just say before I get into, to responding to you is, with trauma, yes, I think that small T traumas can actually be a lot more dysregulating to the body because it doesn't always make sense.

[00:13:04] And for anyone who's experienced a lot of big T traumas, it's - I don't want to speak on behalf of everyone. But for myself, I don't even think that was the most traumatic thing. It was actually the small T traumas that get connected to those big T traumas that are all like, you know, interwebbed with that.

[00:13:22] And. Those are the things that I think are so distracting because it's so hard to articulate, it's so hard to make sense of, as opposed to these big things that you can say, well, that makes sense, of course, I would feel this way. But the smaller things that happen are much more complex and it's hard to find language for. And you can easily make excuses for like blame yourself for like, oh, well, I'm sure they didn't mean anything or I'm being too sensitive about this, right. Because like, I think most of us grew up in a culture where, it just must be our fault, right?

[00:13:58] Like it must be something with regards to, especially if you grew up in a more faith tradition, strong faith tradition, it always seems to be pointing to the sinner. And we talked about this to you before, like, there are a lot of languages around, the sinner. And so, we're doing something kind of wrong and we need to look at ourselves and repent and find really the answers through spirituality.

[00:14:21] So, to get back to your question. I found that if I could find a way to integrate, maybe we could make more sense of some of these things that I was noticing within myself and my clients too. Because I was finding that just a psychological perspective wasn't necessarily solving everything or healing everything. And just a religious one wasn't either.

[00:14:45] So, how could I bring them together to make sense of that person? And then also help people to feel comfortable, bringing in these dynamics of faith? So, I find that if I didn't say that I'm Catholic, it would make it really hard for people to find me and feel like a sense of safety of being able to bring all of this in a session.

[00:15:08] Because oftentimes too, I think people go into therapy thinking, okay, I'll leave the faith stuff over here. And I'm going to just go in and talk about my anxiety or my depression. So, just even that title of a Catholic trauma therapist, I think helps people to see like, oh, well, the two are even together by name.

[00:15:25] What would that look like and work in a therapy practice? And then I just basically use that, as an entry way to start talking about some of these things that I'm sure we'll get into today and to explore just that whole person.

[00:15:39] BEING TRAUMA-INFORMED
Ann: Mm-hmm. So, even within, I guess the field of your work, you know, there's this term now that's mentioned more often about being trauma informed and that sometimes, not all people who work with people with trauma are necessarily trauma informed.

[00:15:56] That was mind boggling for me, honestly. I remember thinking like, you know, And I think this is going to connect with what we're going to be talking about later - this lens of being trauma informed, trauma aware and trauma informed. Could we take a moment and maybe you share a little bit about what does it mean to have this lens of being trauma informed and maybe also touch on - we've both mentioned kind of like big T trauma and small T traumas and maybe not everyone listening to this may know the difference. So, maybe we could go there a little bit.

[00:16:28] Brya: Mm-hmm, mm-hmm. Yeah, sure. Well, I'll share what it means to me because I'm sure if you Google this, there's going to be a variety of different definitions. But what trauma informed means to me is that there is a knowledge and awareness around what trauma is, which really is anything that disrupts our sense of safety.

[00:16:46] I see it also as a wounding, deep wounding, right? That, and I talk about this in my book. It's not so much that every wound or distressing experience creates a particular trauma because we're actually really resilient creatures and can handle a lot of hard things.

[00:17:02] But that when we experience the hard thing and we feel unsafe and it starts to make us question kind of who we are, we're alone with those questions. And it's in that inability to know what to do with that pain, that wounding, the fear, all those distressing feelings that get connected to us, really hard experiences that we face. 

[00:17:25] It's in that loneliness that creates that trauma, like we talked about before too, the confusion, I don't know what to do with this, that starts to be imprinted on our bodies, on our nervous system.

[00:17:37] So, that's kind of how I see trauma. And then being trauma informed as having that sense of knowledge and awareness, but also, I think, to your point, right, like you can be really aware and study anything and say that you are informed about something because of that head knowledge. But to be trauma informed for me is to interconnect that or to integrate that with the heart knowledge, right?

[00:18:00] So, to be attuned, to be curious, to be non-assuming, because, yes, we have, you know, there's different trauma language and we can say, you know, oh, this might be your flight response and be able to articulate in that way. But sometimes, people are just really complex and we want to just be able to attune to that complexity, create a space for that.

[00:18:24] And be open to just really understanding that person and what's going on for them and how they internalized that experience or how they learn to survive from that experience without assuming anything about what this could be or not.

[00:18:40] So, I see it as being kind of taking an also non-judgmental stance and an open stance, a curious stance on what's going on for that human and how they're interpreting their experience. So, to me, that's also being part of that trauma informed lens.

[00:18:56] Ann: Yes. What I feel about the trauma informed lens and even just listening to you speak, what strikes me is that it's a listening stance. Because what I Googled, you know, in the past, I'm like, what is this thing about being trauma informed and, you know, yeah, different places. Usually, they'll say there are a few key principles of, let's say, trauma informed practice, like whether, you know, whether you are a trauma informed teacher or therapist. 

[00:19:21] And number one, the biggest thing is the awareness that everyone comes with a story, like, you know, a history, and that, by and large, the majority of people would have had some trauma in their life, whether it is, like I mentioned, a big T trauma, which would be like, you know, those big incidents that could point to maybe something that was life endangering.

[00:19:46] You know, like I almost died or it was a huge medical trauma that I went through, an accident or I was sexually assaulted. Anything that, you know, like you really can see like a big blip in your history, right. But what for me, especially, I think it was really fascinating because like I said, I don't really have those big T kind of events in my life is learning that just in the process of living life, we can get so wounded because we human beings were created for relationality, right.

[00:20:16] And that for us, what's dangerous to us isn't just physical danger. I mean, which is something that we share, I think, with all their animals, right? Physical danger of actual life and death, but that for us, , relational things or relational experiences can also be either safe or very threatening and for a very real way too, because as human beings, I think the way we evolved as well, if we couldn't trust the people that we are with, we could also end up being in real physical danger as well, right?

[00:20:48] So, learning that attachment wounds could also be traumatic, especially if we're left alone in this and that it could lead to all these kinds of anxieties, stress, fears. That made me think, well, if being trauma, at least trauma aware and trauma informed in your interactions with people is that especially when someone behaves out of the norm for me, and I don't understand and I mean, I might be irritated already. Sometimes, I could be triggered as well and even very quickly judgment may come in.

[00:21:20] Like even for me, sometimes I go like, oh, this person is so flighty or just so irresponsible or, you know, all that. And while that in one context could be true on the surface, what I've learned - and this has helped me so much in my own work as like, as a coach, as a teacher, working with people now being a lot more trauma aware and trying to be trauma informed in my practice - is that they could be really, really be struggling with like a freeze response, you know, the procrastination or being very, very overwhelmed with what's going on in their life or even the desire to work with me to go deeper into the story that could scare them. And that itself is a, is a trauma response, right?

[00:21:59] And it's just been a huge shift for me as well in realizing everyone not only has a story, that story has a continuous impact on the way in which they and I show up today. And that's given me an even greater awe at, you know, what God sees and holds, that there's so much that we don't see and we can't see.

[00:22:22] And it's given me such deeper appreciation for why is it that Jesus also says that judgment is reserved for God alone. I mean, like, why it is that we can't. Not that it's the only reason, but just, even if just for this reason, none of us know the entirety of anyone's story, not even our own. So, we are so harsh with ourselves most of the time. 

[00:22:43] Brya: Yes. Mm-hmm, yes. Yes.

[00:22:45] Ann: So, that's also why, as I heal - and this is so interesting because for me, it's a lot of familial, like family of origin kind of stuff. And realizing - so it's been just so complex, you're right. I mean like so this whole process of facing my wounds and then letting myself feel all the feelings but at the same time, wanting to be loving. But trying to be you know careful in a sense not to let my super ego hijack me because I have a very strong super ego and very well, you know, like that's part of my coping mechanism my whole life.

[00:23:19] I'm the good one. I'm the good girl. I'm a good Catholic. I will do what is right. I will do what God wants me to do. So much so that I really didn't have a sense of self outside of that, of what is it that I'm supposed to do, how is it I'm supposed to behave. So, when it comes to healing, I realize a big part of that is discovering my sense of self.

[00:23:41] And that's very disrupting, you know, having been someone for so long that found safety in just trying never to make a mistake, which of course is impossible. I mean, plenty of mistakes. But shame becomes such a huge issue when my survival feels like it's dependent on me never making an error, never doing something wrong that someone can point to and go, oh, that's a sin or that's bad.

[00:24:02] Or, you know, you're wrong there. And as I allowed myself, like all the parts of myself, my inner child, to kind of like come to the surface more, life has become a lot more complicated. Faith has become a lot more complicated. I did not expect that. You know? 

[00:24:20] TRAUMA AND RELIGIOUS PRACTICES
Ann: And one of the ways that, you know, faith became more complicated was that things, like religious practices that I never used to have any interest in, any problem doing, , never had any conscious memory, you know, of like really having to struggle too much because you know, you just do it. 

[00:24:37] I mean, that's just generally what I did. I think you just do it. So, honestly, I didn't have a lot of compassion for people who couldn't just because I'm like, you just do it. You know, you just, yeah, it's not about how you feel you do what is right. And, you know, and you just go and do it. Because now I'm beginning to understand and realize that I think in the past, I was a lot more disconnected, dissociated with how I was actually feeling.

[00:25:02] And as I healed for good or for, you know, for bad, I mean, one of the effects was that I'm so much more in touch with how my body's feeling. I can't ignore not just the emotions, but how my gut, my like my stomach actually feels. So, for me, when I get dysregulated, I can actually feel sick. Like literally, I want to throw up. And when I began to notice sometime back that I felt I could feel that way at mass, it freaked me out on one hand because, you know, I didn't know what could be going on.

[00:25:36] And a lot of this, I just didn't really talk to anyone other than maybe really close friends or safe people and my spiritual director, you know, and my counsellor. But even my counsellor or even spiritual director, both of them, neither could really help me understand why, like what was happening. It took a long, a much longer time in my ongoing integration journey. And as I worked with both sides and my own learning, that I think, I was the one that began to piece some of these things together, you know? 

[00:26:07] So, I saw your post from a few months ago, I think it was during Lent. Was it during Lent that you posted this on your Instagram?

[00:26:16] Brya: I think so. 

[00:26:19] Ann: Yeah, not going to mass can be a trauma response. And I thought, first I thought, okay, wow, you know I think there's a part of me that was - even just seeing those words felt validated and seen and also a kind of like, oh yeah, it could be a thing. That you mean actually it's a thing, you know, and of course another part of me was like, wow, Brya is really bold for her to post, you know? 

[00:26:48] Brya: Yeah - it was super ego.

[00:26:50] Ann: Yeah. Because for most of my life, I'm such like an insider Catholic. I was working full time in the parish for almost six years. I did talks and stuff. I did it in the diocese. Since I was in my late teens, I've really, really taken a lot of pride in reading about the faith, apologetics and learning and you know, being very Catholic about the catechesis, the catechism of the Catholic church.

[00:27:10] And, you know, front and centre is not making it to mass, not fulfilling a Sunday obligation is, you know - people like to say is even the kind of one, could be a mortal sin. Right, but a lot of people just, you know, the first thing a lot of times when you talk to practicing Catholics who are faithful and the thing that is associated by not going to mass, is that it's a sin.

[00:27:31] Let's just look at a couple of slides I picked up from your posts before we open this up. So, so, you wrote here in one of the carousel posts, that when the church becomes a place where we feel threatened, our bodies naturally will go into defence.

[00:27:46] It doesn't matter how much truth we tell ourselves or how much we convince ourselves to suck it up and go for God. If our bodies feel like we are going to be attacked, wounded, or hurt somehow, we will find a way to make sure that that doesn't happen.

[00:28:04] So, I think someone may look at this and go like, why would your body feel threatened in mass? I mean if you're not living in a country where there's actual violence or Christians are being persecuted, under attack, right? Like, like where you're living, Brya or where I am, Singapore is multi religious, you know.

[00:28:22] I don't have good reason to believe there'll be physical danger. Could you maybe share a bit more why someone could feel like, or their bodies might feel like they're in danger? 

[00:28:30] Brya: Mm-Hmm. Yeah. There's so many reasons why someone might feel in danger. And sometimes - I'll start off with the things that are not connected to mass itself.

[00:28:44] Ann: Mm-Hmm. 

[00:28:44] Brya: Right, like, has nothing to even to do with the mass. But let's say someone experiences some religious trauma or, feels deeply wounded by someone within, you know, church authority, church leadership. Maybe it's just someone who attends church and is very open about that, speaks highly about that.

[00:29:07] Just even that association that they go to, right, can send our bodies on this high alert hypervigilance of fear because now it's association with that person, right? Mass has become deeply associated with the person who's wounded you, who is religious and attends mass regularly. So, that's one thing that, you know, is the first thing that comes to mind because, you know that's oftentimes people's experience is that they feel deeply wounded by someone within the church for, and there's a lot of different wounds.

[00:29:38] There could be some obvious big T traumas that we were talking about, like, what goes on with clergy abuse. That's a really big T trauma. To little T traumas around showing up and you're, you know, doing this apostolate and people start gossiping behind your back and you hear about it, right?

[00:29:58] And this person who you thought you trusted, you're giving your time, devotion to, you love this apostolate, but now it's become this place where you feel highly threatened because are people continuing to talk to me are talking about me or, who can I really trust in this space? So, all that's going to live in your body. And the body often and the brain often work through associations, right?

[00:30:21] So, it doesn't always have to be something really direct. But the moment I now dip my hand in the holy water, open that door to enter into that church, my body can start to feel that rush of all of those things that I've experienced with other people and tell me this is not safe to enter or I shouldn't be here.

[00:30:41] Sometimes, it can even make connections and kind of assume, right, we have this kind of negativity bias where we'll start to assume that some of the things that we experienced will happen again. And that is for a good reason, right? We're just, the body is primed to protect ourselves from future threat.

[00:30:57] So, once we take in something that is very threatening, the body will make assumptions that this could happen again. And it's going to protect us through this kind of level hyper vigilance. And then, also just assuming more negative, negative outcomes. So, that could look like, let's take this example with somebody who experienced, you know, being gossiped by someone within that postulate.

[00:31:21] Well, if that person that goes to mass, right. And maybe they have the sense that I don't know if I could trust these people who, you know, go to mass regularly. And I felt at one time very connected to you. They might then make this that association that these people in the mass will hurt them in the same way.

[00:31:41] And then some people will even describe to me, even feeling like everyone's talking about them, then they make that kind of association, right? And so, it can have these really devastating ripple effects anytime we experience, a trauma outside of the mass or the church, and it can connect to our experience of going to church.

[00:31:57] And then there are some traumas. It's a little bit more rare that can happen within the mass. So, I have clients who talk about - let me try to change her story a little bit so I can protect her confidentiality. But experiencing something that's kind of embarrassing and feeling like everyone was looking at her in that moment and now feeling this deep sense that I can't show my face in mass again because everyone was judging me and looking at me.

[00:32:26] And when we experience something traumatic, we're always looking for cues to know whether or not we truly are unsafe or safe, right? So, if I experienced something like that, like a huge embarrassment in mass and I look around and people are frowning or glaring or laughing at me or, you know, not supporting at all and leaving me alone in that, that distress. 

[00:32:48] I'm going to feel even more traumatized by that experience, right? Because I'm seeing, I'm sensing through my environment, see, I really am unsafe. It's confirming that for me. So, those kinds of experiences can happen in mass that can be highly traumatic. 

[00:33:05] And then I think about to like parents with young children to like, even that can start to create a trauma response. If you're constantly feeling that sense of like hyper arousal in mass, where you're feeling like I'm constantly on and I don't want my kids to run up to the altar and I have to silence them, right? Like all of these things that are keeping your body in a state of kind of survival and protection and protection of really of everyone else around you, like making sure that your kids are not going to be the one to disrupt their peace and their quiet, right?

[00:33:37] That is certainly going to show your body, create a stress response in your body that then tells the brain something is really unsafe here. Like you shouldn't go to mass, right? 

[00:33:45] UNDERSTANDING OUR BODIES: WHY AM I OVERWHELMED?
Brya: It's just too much, too overwhelming. You're going to be judged. You know, everyone's going to look at you. Your kids are going to ruin the whole experience.

[00:33:52] All these negative cognitions, these negative beliefs start to develop that can make mass start to feel really unsafe. So, there's a variety of reasons. Those are some that come to mind, but it could be something inside the mass that's actually happening or something completely outside. That's just now become associated with the mass, right. 

[00:34:09] CAN I WILL MYSELF? IS IT ALL IN MY MIND?
Ann: Okay, so, I'm going to play a bit of devil's advocate. I know in that, in that post you, okay, let me bring it up again. You mentioned like it, no matter how much we convince ourselves to suck it up and go for God, right? If our bodies feel like we're not going to be attacked, we're not going to be safe, it's going to find a way to make sure it doesn't happen.

[00:34:25] I think for a lot of people, even hearing what you've said, and I could say that I think my younger self, like my, you know, in the past could probably have been one of them because I was so disconnected with my own bodies. I would probably think I like, I don't believe it can be that bad. I mean, are people just being too sensitive to thin skin, you know, and I'm sure, I'm sure you have clients who also have people who say that to them or maybe, or, you know, and all that.

[00:34:52] Right, so in the spirit of education and I think really, I know this is, you know, a lot of people, they just can't imagine what it's like. What would you say to, to someone who goes like, who says like, yeah, why can't they just suck it up and go? I mean, like, isn't it just mind over matter?

[00:35:07] Isn't love an exercise of the will? I'm really going for it now. Isn't love an exercise of the will? You know, if I love God enough - and that's how I used to talk to myself too, all the time. If I love God enough, surely, I'll be able to dot-dot-dot. If I loved God enough, right? So, what's up with these people? Is it because they don't love God enough that they can't overcome their anxieties, their fears, their fear of being, you know, criticized and the experience of shame. I know I'm giving you a hard one. 

[00:35:37] Brya: Yeah, I know. It's something that I wrestle with too, because I grew up in that kind of environment, and that's became my own critical voice. Just suck it up. Go for God. You're not loving God enough. You're being too sensitive. All of these kinds of things. And so, I totally get that.

[00:35:55] And I have so much, sympathy and empathy for people who are often told that. 

[00:36:00] THE IMPACT OF TRAUMA RESPONSES
Brya: And we'll have to live with that in their head because it's so conflicting, right, you have this voice in your head that says you need to go and suck it up, but your body is at war with you, right, and even wanting to throw up. That's how, you know, bad it is inside their body, right, just feeling so uncomfortable with even thought of going to mass.

[00:36:21] Mm hmm, so, I would say, one of the things that I have found is that even as a trauma response, feeling so, so - gung-ho is the word that's coming to mind. I'm sure there's a better word for this, but just like very, um, what's the word? - Restricted in even, you know, you could see like even imagining that someone could be that traumatized, right? 

[00:36:46] You can see that that lens is so narrow that if you can't reach and see the possibility that someone could feel in their body that much unsafety, right? That tells me there's something going on with you that, speaks to your own trauma, your own experiences, because rigidity, anytime we hold on to something that strongly and we point the finger.

[00:37:08] That's usually pointing to something, to self-preservation, that's probably something that someone has used their whole life to protect themselves and probably part of their own inner voice. So, lovingly, I'd be curious about that as someone was, you know, asking that question. I know that you don't believe that.

[00:37:25] Ann: But you know, that's brilliant though.

[00:37:28] Brya: Yeah, I would want to better, you know, understand. And I think really there's a lot of fear. I think sometimes we hold on to some of these beliefs too. Because it does feel safer in some respect to just push ourselves and ignore a lot of the things that we're feeling. There can be like a false or warped sense of safety in that, right?

[00:37:51] And standing up for our religious beliefs and minimizing all of that pain and all of that, you know, trauma that we hold inside. So, I know, these topics are really sensitive because for both parties, there's trauma involved, right? The person who attacks, the person who says, you know, you need to suck up.

[00:38:10] And the person who's like, I'm trying to do the best I can, you know, like this is really hard stuff. I can't just will myself into it. So, I'd say. There's probably something going on for that person. And I understand of compassion because it is really scary to imagine, a whole nother reality that you yourself haven't even explored within your own story.

[00:38:31] Right, and when it comes to the body, you really can't just will, right. There are some levels of trauma. And some trauma responses that physically will not let you step into that church. Like I said, for the example, you can throw up. Some clients will throw up. 

[00:38:49] You feel anxious and jittery. So, maybe you do get inside that church, but the entire time you are disconnected, you are not listening at all. You are just going through the motions and trying so hard to make it through. And I don't know, you know, I can't say this is exactly how, what God would want or what He wouldn't want. 

[00:39:08] But I like to imagine that God wouldn't want His children suffering through mass and, you know, people describe like, you know, almost going through it with little mini panic attacks, right? 

[00:39:20] Ann: Yeah. 

[00:39:20] Brya: Jittery and, you know, shaking. And so, these kinds of experiences that people face, I think are very real and very, scary. And even if they were to get to that place where they could go and walk inside and attend mass, they're not really attending right there. They're just showing face. 

[00:39:40] So, we want to be curious about that and ask ourselves is that really what God is asking for individuals who have experienced that high level of trauma. 

[00:39:49] Ann: Yes. That was just amazing. That was really brilliant. I'm so glad you gave all that explanation. And I just want to say spot on, at least from my personal experience, because I've come really far from where I used to be. And having been, I use this term before as well, I call myself a recovering Pharisee.

[00:40:09] I mean, no shade to Pharisees. Sometimes, I actually have a lot of compassion to the Pharisees in the gospel because having been one, like I exactly like what you said, that's what gave me a sense of security.

[00:40:25] Because I know exactly what's right and what's wrong, what's allowed and what's not allowed. And I can pride myself with my ability to, you know, follow the law, right? It makes me feel safe and then of course then, you know, there's a sense of othering those who cannot because then I feel like I'm better. I'm more secure, right. 

[00:40:46] And you're absolutely right that I think back then, there's no way I could have become conscious that all that was going on within myself, because I think there wasn't enough internal safety within me to see such a hard truth about myself, you know? So, in my own journey, I think, it was actually quite some ways in building sense of safety with God.

[00:41:10] And I would say at that point, I was still not really feeling. I wouldn't say I have a secure attachment with God, but I'd come a long way. And my prayer life and spiritual life had really, really deepened a lot. It was only at that point that God saw fit to actually tell me that quote-unquote, really, there was something wrong in the foundation of my humanity. 

[00:41:31] So, He gave me kind of like this vision during a retreat of a church that's built halfway, you know? So, you see all the scaffolding and the walls have all come up. You just, you don't see the roof yet, but a lot of work has been done, right? You think like, oh, it's getting along nicely. It shouldn't take that long to finish.

[00:41:45] And what I felt when I saw this, you know, kind of like in my mind's eye during prayer, I felt, God tell me, well, you know, this building can't be finished because there's something wrong in the foundation. And if you really want to finish this project, they want to finish this building. The only way to take down everything that you can see, like everything that you see with our eyes. And then even beyond that, we have to go underground and excavate the foundations because that's where the problem is.

[00:42:08] And then we're going to have to lay it back. We're going to start rebuilding brick by brick, and this time we'll do it right. I knew it was something about my human capacity to love, to give and receive love. And I had no idea how painful whatever was going to follow after that was going to be. 

[00:42:24] So, also like echoing what you said, respectfully, if there's anyone listening or watching this conversation and may have those thoughts or so like, it can't be that dramatic. You know, these people are being overdramatic about trauma and its effects on people. Respectfully, you know, I invite them as well to maybe bring this to prayer, you know, and just sit with their inability or maybe even refusal to accept.

[00:42:49] I say refusal because I think in the past that would have been true for me. I refuse a reality in which this could be true because that would just be, you know, that would just throw everything into disarray. It would throw my world construct that has kept me secure into disarray. Yeah, so, and I think it's new to many people, at least in Singapore, perhaps what you shared that the visceral reaction, the reaction can be really visceral.

[00:43:14] It's in the body. It's not in the mind. I mean, it's not just like imagination or something. I mean, whatever. Although, some people would say maybe imagination can be so powerful that it can have physiological reactions. And I'll just tell you that that's also what I believed or what I was taught when I was very young.

[00:43:29] So, whenever my body had reactions, I always just thought it was in my mind that I'm just imagining and my imagination is so powerful that, you know, that yeah, I'm making all these reactions. So, if it's in my mind, then I could just change my mind and my body should listen. Like it should follow. 

[00:43:49] Brya: Yeah.

[00:43:49] WHAT GOES ON BEHIND THE SCENES WITH TRAUMA
Ann: Right, tell me, because I know that's not what the science is saying now. I mean, now I know that's not scientifically true. Am I right? Can you say a little bit about that? Why is it that I can't just change my mind and my body would follow?

[00:44:02] Brya: Yeah, well, I think there needs to be a level of integration. It is true that it's possible. Like, for example, I think about like the cognitive behavioural therapy, it's built on that belief, right. And you see effects. So, we have enough. I mean, I think some research has even have coined or said that CBT is the most effective therapy because it you can see how, when you change the mind, people physically feel better. There's enough data to suggest that. 

[00:44:37] But it begs the question. It kind of makes me think about like going back to this idea that, okay, let's say people did go to mass and they sucked it up, right. And they just went for God. They might disconnect from that reality, that inner reality, that they're hurting, that they feel wounded by something and find a way to keep going. Right, and I think many people do.

[00:45:02] Ann: Mm hmm.

[00:45:02] Brya: But that is the big problem, is that there's disconnection now. And it's not an authentic faith that they're building. It's a faith that is rooted in, like, to your point, I need to like win God's approval, I need to just be pleasing, please God, and keep working hard to almost be enough to earn your right to heaven.

[00:45:25] I'm not quite sure. I don't want to put words in your mouth, but to, you know, there's this sense of, you know, approval seeking, right? And there's in that there's such a disconnect from your inner reality and your experience. So, I think to your point, like, it doesn't change the bigger reality. It just keeps you disconnected from it.

[00:45:44] So, it might feel like, you know, physically like, okay, I've moved past that I'm fine now, but that moment that you are triggered again, and you feel that, you know, core memory or that trauma being awakened, which it always does. That whole rush of pain will come back. So, there's not enough changing of your mindset or pushing through in the world that will ever change that inner reality that lives inside your body.

[00:46:12] And so, I think what science and research is, and what I'm seeing is that until we really confront that and create space and learn how to re-regulate our nervous system, that stays within you, even if you're unconscious of it. I hope I answered that. Well, it's a big question. 

[00:46:32] Ann: I know it is. Yeah, I know. I keep throwing like really big questions at you. But I mean, but that's the point of having you on. I can ask this. No, but yes, it makes sense. And one of the really big a-ha moments for me when I was learning about more about trauma is that trauma is stored in our bodies. So, in the very real sense, not just, you know, in our cognition or in our mind, and that's also why as good and effective as CBT, cognitive behavioural therapy is, I think a lot of people are also finding that it has its limits.

[00:47:04] And I just want to say bingo and what you said about if we come back to this issue about not going to mass because of as a trauma response and forcing ourselves to go. And you said also that, I mean, you can't say what is it that God wants or doesn't want, but you hope that that's not what God would want for His children to suffer through mass. 

[00:47:22] INTEGRATING FAITH AND HOLISTIC HEALING
Ann: I would just say that there was a time, this is quite many years ago now, when I was at the point where I was, I think, exercising with God the sense that what I want matters or how I feel actually matters.

[00:47:39] To not just do something that I think He wants me to do, right. And it was very foreign and it's so often I would feel like I was afraid I was being tricked that this wasn't even God. You know what I mean? I feel like, what if someone's trying to trick me into displeasing God?

[00:47:55] Ann: Right, but fortunately, and I think this is where having journeyed with spiritual directors, like consistently over many years, you can see, like my spiritual director can see as well that, you know, you can see the continuity. So, at each point, the sermon is that this is God, this is God, this is God. So, at this point, it makes sense to this is a continued, you know, it's an organic development of what has come before.

[00:48:19] Right, and what was really missing in my relationship with God was, you know. I guess was just humanity, I suppose. but then in all my relationships, and you wouldn't understand that as a therapist, that was what relationships was like for me. So, I didn't know there could be any other kind of relationship, even with my husband, which is a really good relationship. We had to work a lot to build that earned safety, right.

[00:48:42] But from there I did realize that sometimes he just really wants to know what I want. Like even with my husband, Henry, you know, it's because it matters what I want. It's not just about giving him what he wants.

[00:48:55] And then I began to realize, you know, sometimes, I felt God would tell me, why can't we have what you have with Henry, what you're building with Henry, you know, I want the same. I want you to feel safe enough to tell me what's on your heart. And don't you believe that like your happiness and your well-being and what's in your heart matters to me? So, all that's well and good until we come to a point where for example I'm struggling to go to mass and I realize that the only reason I'll go is because it's the right thing to do.

[00:49:25] If I don't go, it's a mortal sin. You know, like if I don't go, I think God is going to be angry with me. And I'll be wrestling with this new reality of my relationship with God, where He's saying, you know, like what you, how you feel matters. I want you to want to be there. You know, I want you to be there body and mind and heart.

[00:49:44] And you know, and I realized it's okay. So, again, I want to stress, I mean, this, I'm talking about my personal experience, okay. No, not saying this in any authoritative manner. You know, because I think everyone's journey is different. But I did bring this, you know, into spiritual direction to confession, into therapy as well.

[00:50:00] I felt like He's reminding me that, you know, construction is messy and you can't expect at every point of construction that, you know, you can't expect to have that pristine, beautiful thing. But it's worth going through the messiness. It's a long-term goal that we're working towards. You know, when someone really loves someone, they're willing to wait and not only they're willing to wait, they're not just waiting passively. They're journeying with you along the way and my experience was even before I could understand or have like have no sense of why I was feeling the way I was feeling. 

[00:50:33] As it turns out, after that period of time of this, many years ago, I did manage to connect the dots as to why there was a series of weeks that I really, really couldn't. I really, really struggled to go to mass and actually had to do what was going on with my family at the same time.

[00:50:49] I didn't realize at the time that it was connected, but once I saw the connection, it was so obvious, you know? It was just so obvious. When I think of John 10:10 and you know, Jesus saying that He came to give us life and life to the full. And I come back to this snapshot of someone, whether it's me or someone else, you know, this little slice where all they can see is, with a struggling and forcing themselves whether or not to go to mass.

[00:51:15] I can't help but think surely God has something more than this in store for us. And, you know, the exercise of our faith can't be so narrow and so rigid. What would it be like to be loved back into life and to love one another back into life? 

[00:51:32] So, if someone was listening to this conversation and then I said, okay, I want more, I want to learn more about all of this as an easy next step. Where would you direct them to find out more about trauma responses?

[00:51:47] USEFUL RESOURCES
Brya: That's a great question. I feel like trauma work is, can be so complex. So, I have some books in mind, but I'm wondering if it would feel too overwhelming. I am currently reading Trauma in the Pews, and we can link that book. That might be a good first step just to continue to explore what is trauma look like when it comes to, how I show up in the church.

[00:52:14] And also, you know, I did some posts after that around going to confession and people have shared other experience of just going to a ministry. So, it could be, you know, church related, which I think could be helpful. And so, I think that book, so far, I've done a great job of exploring these concepts more in depth.

[00:52:33] And I think really, we want to get to that place of feeling deeply seen. So, I think if you jump too much into like a trauma book where they're just kind of describing what trauma is and the more the science of it, we can kind of lose that sense of humanity or connection to our own story and experience.

[00:52:51] So, I'd say wherever you go, just making sure that you're starting with someone who's going to make it more personal and more of that human-to-human level. And then really, if you could bring these questions and things that you're noticing to a safe person or a therapist or a coach, or just someone who is trauma informed, who can help unpack some of these things, so that you're also going at a level or a pace that speaks to your nervous system and what you're most ready for. Because I think that person who is trauma informed will know how to kind of best guide you. 

[00:53:28] Ann: Yeah. As you were talking about that, another book came to mind. I don't know if you know of K.J. Ramsey. She's a writer. 

[00:53:36] Brya: Yeah, yes. I've heard.

[00:53:37] Ann: She's on Instagram. 

[00:53:37] Brya: Oh, yeah! Uh-huh. 

[00:53:38] Ann: So, yeah. She writes amazing stuff. And there's one particular book called The Lord Is My Courage. And she bases the whole structure of the book is based on you know, Psalm 23. But what's really beautiful about it, apart from the fact that she really writes very beautifully is she and her husband really experienced church trauma, like a spiritual trauma and all that. And, that book came from her connecting back to safety in the Lord in that. And there's just something about, I remember when, you know, that book gave me a lot of encouragement and comfort because one, I felt like this person gets it because she gets it from the inside.

[00:54:14] So I like what you mentioned that the humanity there. And she's clearly someone who brings everything into deep into prayer, but she also honours the body. She's a counsellor herself. She's a therapist herself. So, she understands, you know, the body. So, yeah, maybe these two books, the Trauma in the Pews and K.J. Ramsey's The Lord Is My Courage would be a great place to start. I'll link them in the show notes. 

[00:54:35] Brya: Yes. Yes. 

[00:54:38] FINAL THOUGHTS
Ann: So, well, is there anything else you'd like to share as like kind of like, you know, before we say goodbye to the listeners? 

[00:54:49] Brya: I think it's important to name two that I think there's some fear that us, as trauma informed coaches and therapists that were almost like deconstructing the faith and almost taking people away from God or the mass. And I can understand and empathize with that fear because the language that we're, you know, this whole topic can be very scary for some people and seem like, we're not seeing the sanctity of the mass or promoting, you know, mass attendance. 

[00:55:20] But I think if people could just, I think it's good to name and hopefully see our intentions that as we explore some of these topics and unpack them, this inner reality that people are already living with, and we hold compassion and actually motivates us to go to mass.

[00:55:36] It actually helps inspire us and renews our faith. So, you know, just that story of that, you know, the little bit that you shared about this author, K.J. Ramsey, right? 

[00:55:45] Ann: K.J. Yeah, K.J.

[00:55:47] Brya: Yeah, you can see how she, as she explores and creates space for that spiritual trauma and wounding, she actually grows an authentic relationship with the Lord. So, it doesn't take her away from, you know, church or God. It certainly can if you're not careful, right? This work of exploration and opening yourself up to understanding our feelings and our wounds and our body. You can certainly have a defensive stance where it's like, I'm never going to go to mass again and screw the mass, screw the church.

[00:56:16] And that makes sense, right? But that's not what we're trying to promote. We're just trying to create space, trusting that in that the Lord works in that and our authentic expression and our honesty about what we're facing and dealing with the Lord works and he meets us there. And that's going to help actually mobilize us to go to mass and to feel safe there and even grow spiritually.

[00:56:40] And so, I just want to encourage people, who might be a little scared that opening themselves up will take away from their growth and their mass attendance or, maybe people who are a little worried or have some mixed feelings about what we're saying and feeling afraid of what that will do to this already declining mass attendance that we see systematically across the globe. 

[00:57:02] Ann: That's brilliant. Thank you so much for naming that. And I'm so glad you did. And I'll just put this out as a challenging thought and people don't have to all agree with me. I don't expect them to. This journey of life and the cosmos that God created and the call that He has given us, each of us, to become fully alive, to be His and to, in a sense, be, you know, His agents in this, and it's, you know, to bring His presence into the world is a much, much bigger thing than our institutional, usual institutional religious understanding can comprehend.

[00:57:42] There are a lot of things that go beyond even what, you know, theology and all that, you know, can do, which is why the church, even in her teaching talks about both the cataphatic and apathetic way. There's the way of knowing, and there's the way of darkness. That's the mystical traditions where a lot of things just can't be understood.

[00:58:00] Do we trust that God is big enough to bring us through the darkest wilderness? Don't do this on your own, like, in my own journey, like I said, I've consistently have trustworthy, spiritually mature companions, and kind of like help professional help from different dimensions. I'm that way, you know, I want to make sure that I have to, as much as possible that I could have the resources. But even then, there's much of this journey that no one, not my spiritual director or my counsellor, my therapist, or even my husband can enter with me.

[00:58:33] It's really entering the dark woods alone. this healing work of trauma and of really walking in faith, with Christ, not even really knowing where He's leading. It's not the intent for either of us to bring people away from the church. If anything, let's hope that it's the larger journey that we hope people will enter into a more fuller, more deeply meaningful, you know, it's like a more integrated and bodied experience of what it means to be church and to be at mass and all, whatever, however else you may be called to participate in it in God's time in Him, we can rest. 

[00:59:11] Brya: Beautiful. Amen. 

[00:59:14] Ann: Yeah, Amen! Thank you so much for you. I really look forward to the next time we can, you know, we can talk because I think we always have so much that, you know, we can talk about. Yeah. Thank you so much for your time. God bless you.

[00:59:31] Brya: Thank you. God bless you. 

[00:59:41] CONCLUSION
Thank you for listening to Becoming Me. The most important thing about making this journey is to keep taking steps in the right direction. No matter how small those steps might be, no matter where you might be in your life right now, it is always possible to begin. The world would be a poorer place without you becoming more fully alive.

[01:00:04] If you like what you hear on this podcast, would like to receive a monthly written reflection from me as well as be updated on my latest content and offers, make sure you subscribe to my newsletter Begin Again. You can find the link to do that in the show notes. Until the next episode, happy becoming!