You Don't Complete Me Part 2/2 (with Henry Hoo)

EP 28 | YOU DON'T COMPLETE ME - PART 2/2 (WITH HENRY HOO)

Hello again, dear listeners! This is the second half of the conversation I had with my husband, Henry, about the impact of making the interior journey on a marriage. If you haven't listened to the first part of the conversation yet, I invite you to listen to the last episode before you return to the second half. There'll be plenty more laughs, candid sharing about what it's like to struggle together, as individuals seeking greater authenticity and wholeness in our own lives – in the context of being a married couple.

[00:00:44] INTRODUCTION
Welcome to Becoming Me, your podcast companion and coach in your journey to a more integrated and authentic self. I am your host, Ann Yeong, and I'm here to help you grow in self-discovery and wholeness. If you long to live a more authentic and integrated life and would like to hear honest insights about the rewards and challenges of this journey, then take a deep breath, relax and listen on to Becoming Me. 

[00:01:16]
Henry: Yeah, but I don't remember exactly what I said when I came up, but that was how I felt – I was pretty calm.

Ann: Yeah, you were. You just said, yeah. I asked you, I said, you're okay? You're like, yeah. And you say, yeah, I was just thinking – did I do anything wrong or is there anything I could have done better? And you decided no. I mean like, that – you know, and then you said; you figured, oh, I think this is about Ann and she just needs some time to sort it out.

[00:01:41]
And, yeah. And you were right. And, you know, I remember thinking that day, it was the – it was really fun to reconcile from that fight because it was so easy. 

Henry: Yeah, it was because we both knew what we needed to do. 

Ann: Yes, yes!

Henry: Of course, after years of our own journey of knowing how to deal with our emotions, our thoughts, finding the space within ourselves to confront them, I think. Yeah.

Ann: So, that's one of the impact, right? One of the impacts of that I think, really shows how significant doing our own individual inner work can be in a relationship because in the past, I mean, you remember our quarrels? Wow, it was – it would always be so draining; it lasts so long and we'd be tired because, you know?

Henry: Because everything is personal – it’s either you or me. It's your fault, my fault, everybody's fault. But actually, if you take a step back; if we are all accountable for our own interior work, then it's not about anybody being at fault. It's like, we are just on the journey together. 

[00:02:50]
Ann: Yeah, and recognizing that more often than not, when we get really upset, it is likely that it’s because we have not honoured our own internal boundaries – that we have been out of touch with our own self, our own needs.

[00:03:08]
We have not been tending to ourselves and some – subconsciously or unconsciously expecting the other person to be looking after us, right? 

Henry: And after some time, we realized that these are opportunities of invitation to tend to those parts that have been neglected, right? I mean, you had that morning to tend to yourself and I, you know, thought by giving you that space, I was responding positively to that invitation. 

Ann: Oh, yeah. I remember that afternoon. We were – our plan was initially to both go and get a foot massage, remember? You wanted to get a foot massage and you enjoy us going together to get a foot massage. And I had also just kind of like agreed out of habit or – yeah.

[00:03:51]
And after that morning, my own processing, I realized I don't actually want to go for a foot massage. I mean, you can, you wanted to – you can, but I wanted to spend some time with myself. And I told you that, and you agreed. So, you went off for your foot massage. I went off and, you know, get a nice cup of tea with myself. I remembered!

[00:04:10] 
And then, I felt so grateful and happy that, you know – that I had that realization and that we worked it out, and then I also felt so sorry for, you know – losing it, that I remembered queuing up, you know, to get you – what was that back then? The Hokkaido cheese tart.

Henry: Yeah, yeah.

Ann: Back then, when there were long queues, and you hadn't tried it yet, and I knew you'd like it. 

Henry: Yeah, at Orchard, right?

Ann: Yeah, and neither of us are the kind that would queue for food. So, that was…

Henry: So, we did head out to Orchard, did we?

Ann: We did, we did. Then you went to get a foot massage.

Henry: Yeah. And you just hung around.

Ann: Yeah, I hung around – I went to get tea for myself.

Henry: That was really nice – getting a cheese tart after pissing you off in the morning. 

Ann: Well, yeah. And I knew when I was getting that, you know – queuing up for that tart, and like I said, it's not something that I usually would do. I hate having to queue up just for food.

[00:05:05]
But I actually was happy waiting because I was anticipating how much you would enjoy it. And I knew that this wasn't like a bribe or anything to get you to forgive me because I knew that you're okay – I knew that we were okay. I didn't need to do this, but I just wanted to give something extra because I'm just so grateful.

[00:05:23]
And, you know, to let you know that I love you. And I knew we had grown. I mean, that day I was like, wow, this is very different from, you know, earlier on in our relationship. And really knowing that we each need to first tend to our own needs – our own interior needs, to honor that for the other as well.

[00:05:47]
So, in our marriage, we've come to the point – sometime back already, that if one of us says I need some time alone to journal or to go for a run – that’s you, right? 

Henry: Yeah. That's me.

Ann: I mean, or whatever. We honor that, we respect that because, yes, we also know that the quality of our relationship rests on that interior space that the other person has with him or herself, and between each of us individually with God.

[00:06:16]
So, the relationship with God and with ourselves, actually, that is the foundation of our relationship with each other. Right, and I always – I knew when we were much younger, at least intellectually that, you know, the relationship that we have with God is central in our relationship. But it took a long time of my journeying with God, for him to show me that that includes my relationship with myself – that I have missed that out.

[00:06:42] DEALING WITH TRIGGERS
And that needs to be in place in order for me to continue to grow in intimacy with Him, as well as with anyone else – including with you. So, that segues nicely into actually the next point, which is dealing with triggers, because we – I mean, I think we all get triggered, right? Those are the times when we would be at risk of getting into a fight. And we've also really become very different in the way we experience triggers in our relationship, and what we do in a response to that.

[00:07:29]
Ann: What do you think? Does anything come to mind?

Henry: Maybe for me, a large part of me being aware of my own trigger, is not just within the marriage. I think a lot of it was with work, right? I mean, the kind of situations that I encounter and the kind of stresses that I encounter – the kind of people, the diversity of people that I meet, at work and through work, over the years have taught me what triggers me; especially when I become uncharacteristically angry or being stubborn beyond reason – which is not typical of my personality. 

[00:0823]
That helps me to know that I have shifted from a good space to a bad one. So, I would say those experiences, especially after that – spending some time to reflect, not so much at the behavior level, but to ponder about why do I have such strong emotions and response?

[00:08:46]
And if I stay with those times long enough, I could connect to a place, you know, using your three layer model – at the center of myself, there is something that is unresolved or accumulated over time. And I think as I grow to recognize the onset of triggers, it helps me, you know, to be a better spouse in our marriage.

[00:09:12]
I know that something is accumulating. I will then ask for a timeout to say, okay, I need my run. I need to just be quiet for a evening and listen to my music. I still remember – there were times I asked after dinner, can we listen to some Chinese Pop? I feel I needed to reconnect with something deeper in myself.

[00:09:36]
And more often than not, when you hear me ask such a request, you have learned that I am close to my trigger point, and you would accede to the request and that helps to soothe me. So, I would say – learning about triggers is, you know, at any moment of our lives. But after I’ve learned to recognize where my triggers are and that movement towards accumulation of triggers,

[00:10:08]
it actually helps me to be more honest with you in our marriage, you know, be more upfront – to have to call a timeout, because you know, if I don't, something's got to give, right? Yeah. What about you, Ann.

[00:10:31]
Ann: I think for me, it helps to acknowledge out loud. Maybe it's an extrovert thing – I don't know, but it helps for me to acknowledge out loud, sometimes to tell you like, okay, I'm feeling very off today. I am not feeling right – and you know what that means. It's like I’m antsy and I’m restless – and I can’t.

Henry: You have to say it sometimes.

Ann: Yeah. But yeah. I think it's important for me, when I come to the point, I can voice it – that means I'm recognizing it. Yeah so, for me, it's important that when I can voice it out, I can actually say it; it means that I acknowledge it. It means that I recognize that I'm not in a good spot. By saying that out, it helps me because I think in the past, I always feel like I have to hold myself together. I must.

[00:11:20]
I cannot lose my cool. I need to be good, you know? Or whatever – I need to be patient. So, to be able to say: I'm not okay, I'm feeling off – it's being vulnerable. It actually gives myself – it gives me permission, right? I'm giving myself permission to ask then, maybe for the next thing, which is; can we maybe not follow through with the plans that we had initially made?

[00:11:48]
You know, because I don't, I'm not up to, I don't feel like I'm up to it or I'm very tired. I just can't. Can we just do our own thing right now? I just maybe, want to be read a book or can we watch like a brainless com (comedy) or something, and a laugh, you know? Like, I don't know why in the past it was so difficult to make that link. In the past, sometimes, I would just jump to the medication.

[00:12:11]
Like, I might just do something to take my mind off, but then it divides me from the reality within me. So, to be able to say out loud to you also, that I'm not quite all right. And then sometimes that means we can have a good talk or I need some alone time, or some journaling time, and some prayer time on my own.

[00:12:31]
Well, those are times that are very helpful for me. Like, just spending time – going into the other room and closing the door, not in anger, but in knowing that you bless me to retreat into my own space. Then I sometimes just cry in the room and I know, and it's so awesome that now you're okay knowing I'm in the other room crying and everything, and you don't feel like it's your job to come in and comfort me, you know?

[00:12:58]
In fact, I just want to say, I think it's so cool that for you – sometimes now when you come home and you see me on the phone and I'm crying, you just like – you’re so cool; you don't even disturb me. You just go.

Henry: I just head to the room, change out of my uniform, change out my work clothes. Yeah. 

Ann: Yeah! You know, but I love that. I love that we know each other and you know I'm okay. I just…

[00:13:22]
Henry: You just needed that.

Ann: Yeah. Yes, and something is happening, which later on when I'm ready, I want to share it with you know, but yeah. I just want to say that.

[00:13:32] “I NEED TO” VS. “I WANT TO”
Henry: Well, Ann, you know, as you were sharing, there were two thoughts that came to my mind, perhaps tips for the listeners. You used the words “need to”, right? And in my own journey, I realized that, when I perpetually keep using the term I need to this, I need to that; and less of the “I want to” – that is a tell-tale sign that there's going to be some accumulation of tensions that's going to lead to some trigger. 

[00:14:04]
So, you know, that's perhaps, something for the listeners to think about. How often do you use the words “I need to”? Yeah. And if you use it long enough, I think something's gotta give. So, that's the first thought that came to my mind when you were sharing.

[00:14:20] EXPLICIT COMMUNICATION
The second thought; I thought, I heard you say – and both you and me, we, in our sharing we said to explicitly say that we are approaching a bad space and we wanted kind of like a timeout.

[00:14:35]
I think saying it explicitly avoids any misunderstanding in a marriage. You know, if you say that, you know, you feel like you're getting into a bad space and hence for example, you don't want to, you know, go out with me that evening. Because you said that, I don't feel as a personal attack on me, or I don't feel hurt by you because I now understand the reason why you wanted to have a different evening.

[00:15:03]
If you hadn't said that, I think that's how a lot of relationships and marriages can get into trouble because we don't want to say or make explicit what we are thinking. And that leads to a misunderstanding, some kind of a doubt. Yeah.

[00:15:21]
So, this second point about being able to say, I need a timeout explicitly for the other person to know, actually helps to avoid any subsequent, you know, conversation to be too personal, right? Or too, offensive. Yeah. Yeah. That's the second point. I thought to share with the listeners.

[00:15:45]
Ann: And I think to drive that point home, I want to indicate that to be able to do that, we need to listen to ourselves. 

Henry: Sure. 

Ann: So, and that's precisely the point, right? If we don't do this inner work, we won't even know how are we actually really feeling. So how are we going to articulate to somebody else – which is another step.

[00:16:06]
You know, first I need to admit to myself, then I need to feel – I need to be brave enough and I need to be vulnerable enough, feel safe enough to articulate to the other person. So yes, one is the inner work is necessary so that first I know myself. Secondly, I think it’s also very – we found that we don't have to wait until we cannot tahan (bear it) anymore.

[00:16:27] 
As in, we don't have to wait until, you know, we are so close to losing it before we say it. Because the longer we wait before we say what it is that we need, usually, you know, the tension is already very high. 

Henry: The volcano is about there already.

Ann: Oh yes. Yes. And we are – it's a lot easier to be tripped into the argument. And I think in both our own stories and our time together, we found that now we can move earlier and earlier; we’re becoming more sensitive to our own feelings and our own needs or how tired we are.

[00:17:00]
And now we say it at the first possible opportunity, you know? Or sometimes now we even kind of like, yeah, you know? I think I've been tired this week, so maybe we want is – we're not saying that we want to entirely change the plans – but can we have it as an option? You know, just to say it first, like, you know?

[00:17:15]
Henry: Well, I would say we've even reached a point – sometimes I could tell you that, you know, you are starting to get triggered or you could tell me, you know, that hey, you are going down dark space, right? And I think that really helps because sometimes we are still on our journey to really be self-aware. And when the other person has seen enough pattern in how we get triggered.

Ann: But a big caveat for our listeners: this telling the other person…

Henry: It’s very high level.

Ann: I don't know about high level, but I would say; to tell the other person that hey, I think you are reaching, you're going – no, that requires a lot of practice and a lot of trust-building…

Henry: That’s right.

Ann: …before we can say that to the other person and the other person doesn't get triggered by it. You know? Or else it would be like; how dare you say this to me?

[00:18:03]
Henry: Not for the unskilled. Do not try to do this with your spouse this evening if you have not been doing it for the last 10 years.

Ann: Yeah. Yeah. I think it's – yeah, it takes a lot of practice. 

Henry: Yeah. Hits and misses, hits and misses. 

Ann: Yeah, a lot of hits and misses.

Henry: I remember there were times when you're so excited about something…

Ann: Oh, man! I hated you.

Henry: …I said, you know Ann, this period of ecstasy – it's not going to last forever. 

Ann: Oh, that was…

Henry: Oh, my God. Now I look back at myself – I'm like how silly I was, but well, we all learn right? – From making mistakes. Some are more brutally painful than the rest.

[00:18:37] REPAIRING
Ann: Yeah. Yes. Yes. Okay, so, that brings us nicely into the last point I want to talk about, which is precisely about repairing – about, you know, repair. So, I think we were very blessed that quite early on in our relationship – this was even before we were married.

[00:18:54]
When you were still really upset, I mean, really scared of me crying and really upset when you think I'm upset with you and you don't know what you can do about it. And I stumbled on an insight back then, I remembered. And we were fighting in a – or we were having this very intense conversation, not really fighting. But really intense conversation in our car.

[00:19:13]
Do you remember? We were in a parking lot, somewhere in Orchard. We were supposed to be doing shopping before I went back to Canada. So, we were still in a long-distance relationship and this was at the end of my visit to Singapore, and I was going to go back. And yeah, I was hungry, which is also another big trigger for me when I'm hungry, it's easy for me to lose my temper. 

Henry: So I’ve learnt.

Ann: Never try and have a deep conversation with me when I'm hungry. But yeah, so we had this intense conversation and we ended up quarrelling and I was crying. And I remember you were very conscious that, you know, we were a public parking lot and if people walked by and they would think that you're bullying me. But I told you, because I remember you were so upset, you kept reviewing what had happened.

[00:19:52]
And you said you can't see what you could have done differently. And you were so frustrated by that. You don't know how you could've it done differently. And I remembered telling you know, that's okay because I really don't expect that guarantee that we would never hurt each other, or I'm not expecting you that you would never hurt me.

[00:20:11]
Sometimes, I don't even know why I get hurt, right? But I think the important thing is to learn how to repair. If you know, what is it, the ones I'm upset – what is it that I need to be reassured that – in this case, what I wanted to know was that my relationship, or our relationship was the most important thing, right?

[00:20:31]
Over the other, whatever else was preoccupying you. That was one of my triggers back then. I had a lot of insecurity, right? So, when I get upset it's because that insecurity has been triggered and I felt threatened and I didn't realize – I mean, I didn't understand insecurity back then, but I knew I felt threatened.

[00:20:50]
And I told you – I remember I told you that like, here's a cheat sheet, okay? When I'm in this kind of a state, all you need is to reassure me that I'm the most important person. And this relationship is the most important thing. And I just need to hear that to feel reassured. And then after that, anything can talk; we can discuss about anything.

[00:21:10]
And I become so reasonable, you know, once I have that assurance. And we learned very early on also, that when it comes to the relationship, it's not about – it's honestly not about logic. And, I want to say so, sorry to those of you out there for whom logic must trump everything. And because sometimes it's not even about principle when it comes to relationship, and because human beings are so complex and our hearts are so wounded, we can’t be logical, okay?

[00:21:37]
When we're triggered and when we’re upset it is the cry of a terrified heart – of a wounded heart that is being reminded of what it was like to be abandoned. And that memory could have been something that very early in our life; and we don't explicitly remember it, but we are reacting to it.

[00:21:56]
And when we are in that kind of a mode, you know; fight or flight or freeze, there is no point trying to reason anything out, you know? I think what we need in that moment is that the assurance that I matter – that you matter, that this relationship; you're right, I'm staying and we're going to work it out. All right.

[00:22:15]
Everything else can wait. And then once that threat is no longer there, then we can be reasonable. And then we can talk about deeper things and reasons, and what happened, you know, so much more calmly. Preferably over, you know, a nice cup of coffee and maybe some cake or ice cream. You know, we can make repairing the relationship something fun; something to look forward to.

[00:22:43]
And I want to say that once I realized that the repairing can be so – what's the word – the repairing can be very deep and fulfilling, and healing, it made me less afraid of the times when we would fight and argue, because I know that we're gonna work towards the repairing. And every time we do the repairing, we're even closer than we were before. We know ourselves and the other person's needs and triggers even better than before. And our trust increases because we experience that the other person loves me enough to stay in the discomfort. To yeah – to wait for me.

[00:23:33]
Henry: Well, Ann, you put it perfectly. And really, if there's one thing I would reinforce is this cheat sheet kind of tip, right? I mean, as an engineer, by training, we have a lot of exams where we bring cheat sheets – where you squeeze a lot of things in the cheat sheet, but I think in a relationship, in a marriage, the only cheat sheet that you need to put as a tip is when you're in the depths of an argument. What the other person only needs to hear is one thing: he or she matters enough as the most important person at that point in time.

[00:24:18]
If that message gets through, I think, you know, what's going to come after that is a lot, a lot more healing, a lot, a lot more, meaningful for the relationship in the long run. Yeah, but if we are ever to go deeper into how to repair quarrels and issues – maybe that's for another episode on your Becoming Me.

[00:24:43]
And yeah, there's a lot to be said about that, but I think, yeah, if there's anything right in the heart of an argument, remember this tip because no logic, no principles, no superior arguing skill can get you out of that. Yeah. That's our experience. Yeah. 

[00:25:03] FINAL NOTE
 Ann: Yeah. And I think, you know, one final note. To end this conversation off – and this is really for the listeners. I want to share that in the past, I always thought that to make a relationship work is all about communication. And I think we hear that advice a lot. It's all about communication – and almost like that's the most important thing. I've also heard before that what's important is to be willing to sacrifice ourselves for the other – to value the other person's happiness more than our own.

[00:25:37]
I mean, that is meant in the best way; a sacrificial kind of love, but that's also – so, that's kind of like saying; that's actually a very high level kind of love, that if we don't understand it properly and we're not secure enough in our own identity in ourselves, we would seriously hurt ourselves and others trying to practice this sacrificial love. We will be doing in a way that damages ourselves and damage the other, rather than genuinely making it a life-giving kind of offering.

[00:26:11]
So, what I found – and I had just humbly offer this – I mean, I don't speak as any relationship expert or anyone in, you know, trained in marriage counseling or therapy, but as you would have heard in our conversations so far; this is from our lived experience and our own reflection. The one thing that has transformed our relationship and made it so much stronger is our commitment to our own individual journey and our decision; our commitment to honor the other person's interior journey. Which means that we don't push the other person to do something he or she is not ready to do.

[00:26:53]
You know, whatever that may be, even if we think that that is something good for us to do together. So, for just a quick example, I guess since Henry and I are both, you know, Catholics, and active in church – one of the things that pretty much; an assumption, I think that most people have is a husband and a wife; it’s ideal for them to serve together.

[00:27:12]
You know, so, in the past, we tried that and it was quite hard because our gifts are so different.

Henry: We were at different places in our journey.

Ann: We were at different places in our journey. And also, I think we didn't yet know who we were ourselves. 

Henry: Yeah, that was years ago.

Ann: So, how are we to? And to lock ourselves and each other in to some particular area of service would have stunted our growth, you know? And remember our third Anniversary?

[00:27:41]
We went to attend Marriage Encounter together and we asked ourselves – it wasn't part of the Marriage Encounter – we were asking the Lord what is our vocation as a couple? And what had come to us then was that what we need to continue to do was to discover our own personal vocations individually, accompanying one another to do that because somehow our call as a couple would emerge from the full flourishing of our own individual missions; our own individual vocations.

[00:28:11]
And that was year three in our marriage. And I think it was only – maybe another, almost seven years later; closer to year 10, where we became a bit more clear enough about how things might work, but we didn't force it, you know?

[00:28:26]
And it was so nice to just discover as we played and, you know, we helped out another, you know, here and there. Although the world can’t really see – and I think this is the first time we're making it public – like having this kind of conversation in a public manner; that the greatest way that we have been supporting one another as a team is at home behind closed doors, in a sense, advising, holding space, giving, spiritual counsel to one another.

Henry: And learning, not to intrude into the other person's journey as well. 

Ann: Yes!

Henry: That takes a lot of practice and a lot of discipline.

Ann: Yes, and like me wanting you to succeed in your vocation and your work, right? I can't your work – I don't have – I would never be able to do the work that you do, but I have insight that can help you be the best version of yourself, so that you can offer your gifts, your presence in the way that only you can do.

[00:29:18]
Henry: And vice versa. 

Ann: Yes! And vice versa. I always tell people you're my domestic spiritual director – my domestic consultant. I mean, your wisdom and your insights are always very timely and, you know, very helpful. So, yeah. So, I just want it to end with that sharing, because you know, to all those who are listening to this podcast, and especially the married couples or the people who are going to get married – or even if you're not married, this applies to close significant relationships, right? – Family relationships, and/or close friendship, whatever. The closer we come to someone, the more difficult it can be – that relationship can be.

[00:30:02]
Especially if we are not grounded in our core. So, this interior journey into authenticity and wholeness – it really isn't just for ourselves. For anyone who may think still that spending this much energy and effort on reflection and our own healing and journey is self-indulgent, I want to say, this is the best thing you can do for anyone that you're close to – for your spouse, for your children, for anyone, because you become a more secure, a more whole, a more relaxed person. 

[00:30:39]
Not that you become perfect, far from it, but, you know, we all become more able to accept when we make mistakes. It really is the best thing we can do for ourselves and for our spouses, and anyone close to us. So, yeah. So, this is our – I think that the end of today's special episode on what impact the interior journey can make in a marriage.

[00:31:02] ANNOUNCEMENTS
And I just want to put it out there that if anyone, if you all have questions, or anything based on what we've said today, that you hope that in a future episode, we would talk about, please feel free to email me at ann@becomingme.sg. There's a form on the website or actually – I haven't, fully launched yet, but I'm in the process of actually moving the podcast website to a different domain and a different website.

[00:31:35]
It's going to be at becomingmepodcast.com. So, that's: becomingmepodcast.com. It’s already up actually, and there's a function there that allows you to leave me a voice message. So, you can actually leave a voice message – you can ask a question and, if you would like, I could even possibly next time include that question in a podcast as well, when we answer that.

[00:31:59] PRAXIS: LISTEN. PONDER. ACT
So, whether it's for Henry or me, or both. So, thank you so much for listening to today's episode. Maybe we can do – do we have any praxis prompts to leave with them today? 

Henry: Well, praxis prompts are your domain. Please go ahead, Ann.

Ann: My domain. Thank you so much for arrowing me. Okay. So, how about this? So, for the first prompt, which is always Listen – as you have listened to today's conversation between me and Henry, was there anything that struck you? What was it – maybe you want to hold that in your heart or journal it down, you know? What were the points that struck you. And then you may want to return to it. 

[00:32:43]
And this is a second prompt: to Ponder – maybe ponder on why it is that the points that had struck you; why do you think that those were the points that struck you?

How does it relate to your own lived experience? In your marriage, or relationship, or close friendship, or whatever it is – whatever relationship it is that you were thinking about when you were listening to our conversation. 

[00:33:15]
And three: Act – what might be one thing that you can commit to do to take a step forward into making your interior journey for the sake of your loved one? Right, so, Henry and I think we mentioned quite a few different things about our own experiences and what has in we've done. But I invite you to maybe try and make it concrete and think of one thing, one thing. So, for example, if you think you can try to spend a bit more effort to listen to your own needs and be able to articulate it to your partner, whether it be in written form or in spoken form – that could be an example of a concrete thing; a concrete step that you could take.

[00:34:06]
Yeah. So, thank you so much for listening to us. We hope that you've enjoyed our sharing. Henry, it was really fun doing this with you. 

Henry: Yeah, it just feels like, you know, one of those post-dinner conversations, or breakfast conversations that went a little bit longer. I totally enjoyed myself. Thanks, Ann. 

Ann: Yeah, except that usually those conversation, there are no, like – I'm not looking at a list of talking points. We just go with the flow.

Henry: And nobody's listening in, except Miko. 

Ann: Yes, that's right. Okay. Well, yeah, so until the next time, Henry. Thank you! I hope you will join me again at some point. And to the rest of you, thanks. And till next time!
 
[00:34:44] CONCLUSION
Thank you for listening to Becoming Me, where new episodes drop every first and third Wednesdays of the month. Remember, the most important thing about making this journey is to keep taking steps in the right direction. No matter how small those steps might be, and no matter where you might be in your life right now, it is always possible to begin.

The world would be a poorer place without you becoming more fully alive. Don't forget to visit my website at becomingmepodcast.com and to subscribe to my newsletter as well as to this podcast. Until the next episode, Happy becoming!