Beyond the EOS Framework | Adam Harris | Ep 191

Debra Chantry-Taylor  00:00

Simple is not always easy, but simple means that you this is what I've found. It means people will actually stick to it long term as well. Because once you start to over complicate things, people then find it difficult to stick with it.

Adam Harris  00:10

Clarity creates confidence, and when you have that clarity, individually and collectively, it just makes things so so simple. And that's where the flow comes from. Is because it's like, you know, a situation, issue, problem, opportunity comes up. It's like, oh, where does this sit over there? Oh, okay, cool off. You go. It's yours. Take ownership.

Debra Chantry-Taylor  00:39

Welcome to another episode of Better Business, Better Life. I'm your host, Debra Chantry Taylor, and I'm passionate about helping entrepreneurs lead their ideal lives by creating better businesses.

Debra Chantry-Taylor  00:55

I’m a certified EOS implementer and FPA accredited family business advisor and a business owner myself with several business interests, I work with established business owners and their leadership teams to help them live their ideal entrepreneurial life using EOS, the Entrepreneurial Operating System. Now today's guest is a fellow EOS implementer. He is my brother from another mother, and I always enjoy our conversations in this room. So I'm really pleased to introduce again, Adam Harris, who is not only an EOS implementer around the world, but also the founder of Frank and Fearless, and he moved his entire family to come and live in New Zealand to live the nomadic lifestyle. Today, I'm going to pose some of the more controversial questions to Adam about EOS, some things I mean, you know, I've heard through the various people that I work with, and we're going to get him to answer those and see how he comes and of course, I'll jump in, as I always do, to help as well. Welcome to the show. Adam, great to have you back here in the studio again.

Adam Harris  01:48

It feels like the broom cupboard, which is great. I love it.

Debra Chantry-Taylor  01:52

It is for those who don't know, we're in my podcast room today, and it was literally, it was an old office that we converted into a storage room, which then became a podcast room, which now kind of has a hybrid function of being a a broom cupboard, a podcast room, and also our storage centre. So anyway, but it is, it is, it's nice and warm. It's nice and cozy. We're going to have some fun. So I have got a whole range of questions that I often get asked about EOS, and some of them a little bit controversial, but I think that's going to be fun. So before we get started, why don't you just remind people about your journey to become an EOS implementer?

Adam Harris  02:26

Yeah, so I used to be a Vistage chair back in the UK. One of my members came across traction, or this going back probably eight years ago, and said, Adam, we'd love some help to implement this. And me being somebody that likes helping and saying yes, got into it, fell in love with the whole aspect of EOS. Two things major for the for me, was the simplicity of it, but actually more importantly, the ability to be able to cascade through an organisation, seen a lot of kind of strategic opportunities and frameworks, etc. That's what I kind of loved about EOS, and as I kind of went through and helped starting more organisations, we then started implementing it within our own family business, and myself and our and my wife decided that our 10-year vision was to live nomadically. One of the things we say within EOS is, be careful what you wish for. And then all of a sudden, within the space of about 18 months, we're uprooting the whole family, moving across to New Zealand, down to tananaki, and living our true EOS life.

Debra Chantry-Taylor  03:33

Fantastic. I must admit, I think you and I have similar kind of stories in terms of whole EOS thing. We've both been coaching for a long time, open a lot of work with businesses. And when I came across the EOS framework, what I love was it was just, it was exactly that was a framework, right? It was just a structure that could actually put a little bit of rigidity around it without taking away the true entrepreneurial spirit.

Adam Harris  03:52

Yeah. I think the other thing for me is, is, and I was speaking with a client last week about this, is that, where do business leaders or employees learn about how to run or be within a business, and either it's come from an academic perspective or from previous organisations, but everybody comes around the leadership table, and everybody's kind of got a different flavour and a different sense. So actually, for me, what's really then becomes really important is, is that picking one framework or methodology that you could all adhere to. So it ensures that you're all working under the same guises and rules and framework.

Debra Chantry-Taylor  04:26

One voice, one system, all that stuff. Perfect. Okay, cool. So that was, when did you actually join the EOS? I mean, using EOS for a long, long time. Did you join the EOS community?

Adam Harris  04:36

I was using EOS through Basecamp, which is kind of like a hybrid piece for a number of years, but upon moving to New Zealand, I became a an EOS implementer two and a half years ago now.

Debra Chantry-Taylor  04:47

Fantastic. Okay, right? Okay, so let's get into some of these questions. So I know, I know. So the first one I think is really cool, is EOS too rigid for creative or fast paced industries?

Adam Harris  04:59

Oh, that’s a great question. Yes, however, so as EOS implementers, you know, when we're engaged with organisations, we know that it's a proven process, and actually, by going through the proven process, is going to give you the results often, and I'm sure you have this all the time, is, yeah, we like that, that, that and that, but actually this bit doesn't really work for us. And then as soon as you start kind of changing and manipulating and moving away, I think there's probably a room for maybe 10% anything over and above that is, you're better off just picking something. But there's reasons why it works. Is because it's kind of because it's proven, if you're not able to have the creativity that you're that you're desiring craving, then I'd be saying, process it as an issue and go what? What's actually the issue underneath the issue that is meaning that you're not able to do what it is that you that you kind of need to do, because the end of the day, following a framework with a methodology like EOS or any of the others that are out there that's going to give you the cadence and the discipline and the consistency as a collector to be able to do what you need to do, and then give you free license to be creative in other different areas. So it's kind of for me as a case of what's the real issue as to what is not allowing you to do?

Debra Chantry-Taylor  06:21

Yeah and I think you're absolutely right. I think EOS provides the framework for kind of making things run more smoothly, more effectively, more efficiently. So in actual fact, you should have more time to be creative. And I've certainly, I've introduced us into a couple of advertising agencies, and their real fear was, but you know, we're creative, this is going to stifle our creativity, and it does exactly the opposite once you start to implement it, because it is, it is just a framework. This is the thing I always say to people. I describe it as we're giving you the foundations and probably even the wooden frames of the outside of the house. But the way that you decide to put the walls, where you put them, what size the rooms are, what decorations you use, what kind of taps, whatever it might be, that all comes down to your business. So it's just the framework that is put there, and it's designed to help run the business side of it. It's not designed for your creativity part, which is what you deliver as a service to the client.

Adam Harris  07:10

Yeah. And by having, by having the regularity and the consistency of meetings and, you know, the accountability and the check ins, etc, actually should create more space to then allow you to kind of go, okay, look, I know that these are the meetings I need to be in. This is the role and the accountabilities that I've got right the rest of the time. Hey, crack on. Do what you need to do. Be as creative as you want.

Debra Chantry-Taylor  07:32

And I think the whole fast paced thing is really interesting as well, because it people that's going to slow us down if we have all these meetings. I guarantee right now, most people having more meetings than they need to have. And what I loved about EOS was that level 10 meeting structure, which actually brings everything down. So in theory, providing not wearing multiple hats, you are in two meetings at most in a week. And it's amazing how you look at all the ad hoc meetings and stuff that goes on. Oh, can I just grab you for a minute? Can we just go through this? Can we just do that that takes up so much of your creative brain space, whereas if you know you've got these meetings that you're attending and you deal with stuff there, it actually frees the brain for the rest of the time. Completely agree? Yeah, cool. Okay, brilliant. We've got that one now then. So, no, it's not too rigid, but it does take some work. I think that's the important thing to recognize. It's not a magic silver bullet, and it does require some commitment to actually do that.

Adam Harris  08:20

I've observed over the years that people, I often feel that people, it's often the right thing for a lot of people, but it's a case of, are they themselves, or as a leadership team, or as a business, is it the right time? And it's, it is tough. You know, you're going to have to break a few eggs along the way. There's going to be some challenging conversations more often than that, that's stimulated by somebody like you and I. But are you prepared to do the work that needs to be done, knowing that actually you've kind of got to take probably two or three steps back to then be able to move forward consistently and at some pace to gain the traction that you want to grow the organisation.

Debra Chantry-Taylor  09:00

I know that I use it when one of my advertising agents is growing really, really quickly. They went from being nine people the space of 12 months, went to 27 people. And so EOS actually stopped the wheels from falling off throughout that growth period. Because I think you need some when you're going that fast and things are really growing that fast, it's something that provides consistency.

Adam Harris  09:18

Yeah and you've just reminded me, I've worked with a marketing agency, and one of the interesting things that happened there was, is that the head of creative was the person that was originally responsible for, kind of, like the sales, and actually going through the process, actually, what became clear was, is that there needed to be somebody else, just that was accountable. Wasn't necessarily that they were the one that was doing all the work, but actually being accountable to the rest of the leadership team meant that there was accountability and the pushing and the prodding, the poking and the consistency to go, Hey, are you doing what you said you were going to be doing? I need to check in on you to make sure that we're that we are absolutely delivering on what we want to do.

Debra Chantry-Taylor  09:57

Okay, let's try the next one. Yeah. So what do you think about the criticism that EOS can stifle entrepreneurial innovation by focusing too much on structure and discipline?

Adam Harris  10:10

These ones are good look in you know, I've been, I've worked with business owners, Chief execs, entrepreneurs, for the last kind of 20 years, I would say there's probably one to 3% which are completely off the wall, people that are in the mold of kind of an Elon Musk, who they are, they're just complete outliers, and they are always going to do things their own way anyway, and implementing something like EOS is probably not going to work because they're so tunnel vision and tunnel focused. Their ability to be able to see things that other people can't. They're that they're almost dragging people along, and the energy and enthusiasm that comes from that entrepreneur is just going to take them kind of, you know, fully the way there. However, the 97% of others are not in that camp. They haven't got the ability and the consistency to bring the organisation with so EOS re or something like EOS gives the framework and the methodology to allow the consistency and allow the entrepreneur to do the role that they were born to do, you know, be in the space than the need to be in from, kind of the reporting and the detail. And I'm a visionary, so I completely understand to then allow that most of the time you're just then, you know, do the work that you're born to do and shine. So actually, you know, kind of that small amount of checking in and paperwork and boring stuff and meetings and conversations needs to happen, but it's done in a concise space to allow the rest of the time to kind of be able to shine and flourish and grow.

Debra Chantry-Taylor  11:54

And I think you're right. I think the thing I liked about EOS when I first came across it was this whole concept of visionary versus integrator. And I think that often when we start our businesses, we can wear both of those hats, because we have to, but it's not our natural disposition. And so as a consequence, you're trying to force yourself into doing things that you don't feel naturally right, that you don't necessarily love. And so structure actually frees you, because structure says, hey, there was an opportunity to have a role called a visionary where they are able to do big picture, big relationships, push the, you know, push the industry forward, big culture stuff, but not get involved in the day to day management of the business and the details and the managing of people, the difficult conversations. That's the integrator role. And so structure actually provides freedom, because then you go, phew, I can let go of all of that, and just focus up here.

Adam Harris  12:42

And it's great for me as a visionary, because I really don't really, I mean, it's a nice possible way. I really don't care what's going on a day to day basis, but I know that for 90 minutes once a week, that's the time that I can get that sense check. But actually, others need certain stuff for me, so they're able to kind of be bringing and having conversations. And it just allows me to kind of decompose, mentalize in my brain and kind of go, right? I'm to be present for them, because they need this as much as I need it, but I'm not going to get distracted at other points during the week. Oh, Adam, have you got five minutes here? Oh, can I just have a conversation on the phone? It's like, No, you're, you're, you're messing with my head. And in order for me to be a visionary, I need to be able to be in, you know, in space, to think and have those creative moments.

Debra Chantry-Taylor  13:27

So the accountability chart is a tool here that really helps with the accountability chart in the level 10 meetings. I think are the two things that really help with this is that they provide that structure that actually helps define those roles. So in theory, everybody can actually working in their unique ability, God given talent, we're going to call it, and they are up there doing the stuff that they love, that they're really great at, which, of course, adds the most value to the business as well.

Adam Harris  13:49

And I think there's a side thing on this, which is also about the appreciation and respect and empathy of others. So when you have the clarity on the accountability chart, and you're having the consistency of meetings, it allows you to understand that I can't do what I do unless I've got other people. And what, what I've seen in in some organisations, is that it's kind of like the default, which is, oh, sales don't understand what finance does, and finance don't understand what operations does. It's like, okay, now is now it's there on one piece of paper. I can see and I can I might not necessarily want to do it, but at least I understand which is going to give me the permission to kind of be more empathetic, and being able to know that if, if we, if we work in silos, and we don't come together, we're just kind of, you know, pissing in the wind. So having that ability to know and understand that I for me, is really important.

Debra Chantry-Taylor  14:45

And actually, you make a really good point, because it also, I've seen it a lot with particularly family businesses, where there's a husband and wife working together, or a mother and a father and the sons and daughters working together, when you start to define those roles really clearly, they do get to understand. And what the other person is doing. And suddenly it becomes not personal, as in, you're being my annoying husband again, who's, you know, holding me back, whatever the thing is, actually you're being an integrator. And an integrators role is that? So it becomes a role thing rather than a person thing. And people start to understand more what those roles are. Because if you think about a traditional organisational structure, organisation charter, it's called, all it says is finance and Mary is in charge of finance. It doesn't actually tell you what finance does. And when you start spelling it on the accountability chart, even if you don't enjoy finance, you can go, Oh, God, I hadn't thought about that. They do the legal side. They do the governance side. They do all this. Same with sales, same with marketing, some operations. I think it gives a much better understanding of what people actually do.

Adam Harris  15:40

Phrase that comes to mind is clarity creates confidence. And when you have that clarity, individually and collectively, it just makes things so, so simple. And, you know, and that's where the flow comes from, is because it's like, you know, a situation, issue, problem, opportunity comes up. It's like, oh, where does this sit over there? Oh, okay, cool off. You go. It's yours take ownership.

Debra Chantry-Taylor  16:06

Yeah, okay great. So it's a stack of entrepreneurial innovation. In fact, it's going to give you structure, and it's going to free you up to do more of that entrepreneurial stuff. Okay, this is one I hear a lot, and it's the kind of the cookie cutter thing. It's like, do you think EOS oversimplifies complex business issues and what are the risks of applying a one size fits all approach.

Adam Harris  16:28

Look, it kind of goes back to something I said earlier. Is that when you go into an organisation, each of the individuals, let's start with a leadership team first, but each of the individuals will have learnt and developed behaviours, systems, processes from all different walks of life. So if you don't have a defined way of doing things, an EOS is one. If you don't have that definition, then what actually happens is, is that you in theory, inadvertently and subconsciously, you're fighting against kind of expectation because we don't have clarity. It's like, you're doing things one way, I'm trying to do things another way. And actually, we haven't defined exactly what's our way of working. So when you pick something that is going to be consistent, first and foremost, in the leadership team, but then second of all, then throughout the rest of the organisation, it's like, well, we all know the blueprint for how we're going to row the boat. And if, if somebody, or a team, deviates off, we can see the deviation, and then we're able to kind of correct, either self correct, or actually, within the space of seven days, or 90 days, somebody else is then going to be able to go, oh, well, hang on a second. I think we're veering off. So you're just really making sure that you're all aligned, and you're working in the same way.

Debra Chantry-Taylor  17:48

Well, I'd say, I think this is, I get asked this a lot. It's like, oh, EOS is so simple, you know? And it's sort of this cookie cutter, and you're taking the same approach to everybody. But as I said in the beginning, it's not, it's a framework. And the different business challenges, the different, the unique parts of business can still come to light, but just using the framework to give, as you said, that consistency, that discipline, that common language, that common direction, making sure we're running the same direction. So I don't think I mean simple is not always easy, but simple means that you this is what I've found. It means people will actually stick to it long term as well, because once you start to over complicate things, I think people then find it difficult to stick with it. And I use an example, you know, like, I love the scaling up in the Rockefeller lab. It's like, it's so great, and it's based on all this research as is good to great. All those books are all amazing, but they're actually quite difficult to think about, having to put all of that into your business. And so EOS, to me, was like a simplified framework that takes all those amazingly great ideas and puts into something that anybody can grasp quite simply at a leadership team level and management level at a shop floor level, and go, Okay, this makes sense. So for me, it's just the simple part of it.

Adam Harris  18:58

Yeah, and you know, having worked with EOS a lot over the last 15-20, years. I agree with you. There's a lot of strategic tools out there, which are absolutely fantastic for leadership teams, sometimes the next level or the third level down. However, the frustrations that I was seeing in in the conversations around the mastermind groups, etc, was God, my tip, the rest of my team and the rest of the business just don't get it. And the reason is, is because it's over complicated. Now, if you're an intellectual and you've studied and you've done all those bits and pieces, then the chances are you're going to be able to pick it up, because the language, the terminology, the essence of what it is, is going to make some level of sense, or you're going to be able to understand it fairly quickly. But what doesn't happen is his ability to be able to cascade all the way through down the whole organisation, and that's where EOS is simplicity, you know, really does work. I think there's a really important thing to say is, if you're in, if you're listening to this. And you're in an organisation and you believe that things are working, don't change it like you know, Don't over complicate things if you've got, if you've got a and whether they're whether it be by chance or not, or intentional, if you've got, if you believe that your business is working efficiently and effectively, and all the aspects are working great if not, ask yourself the question, where and why is it not working? And what are the what are the things that I, as a leader, need to look at to see if there's something else that's going to allow us to be more effective, more productive, and in theory, ability to be able to grow accordingly.

Debra Chantry-Taylor  20:39

And I know that you and I both work with a number of different industries and across, you know, across different countries as well. I mean, I've worked with people who are doing metal recycling, people who are pulling potatoes out of the ground right the way through the people who are doing high level strategic IT consulting. And I think what's great about the US framework, like you said, it actually helps to translate what the leadership team is trying to achieve into something that is meaningful for even the person who is picking the potato other ground or sorting through the metal recycling on the ground. That's what I love about it. It isn't, it isn't theoretical. It's not too high level. It's just good, practical, pragmatic, common sense.

Adam Harris  21:16

Janet and John, you know, like it's, you know, the ability to be able to explain something to a five-year-old, like I've shared the shed EOS with my two daughters, who are 16 and 12, and they get it and understand it. So if they can get it and understand it, then you know that that is the thing. The simplicity really is what makes it work.

Debra Chantry-Taylor  21:40

Perfect. I think we've got that one sorted. Okay, we've got a few more here. How do you respond to leaders who claim EOS can push for short term results at the cost of a long-term vision?

Adam Harris  21:51

I'm not sure if I agree with that. I think there's a there's an aspect of EOS is a journey, and by engaging with a framework and methodology, you're committing the leadership team and then the rest of the business to a way of working. That way of working, yes, there's some short term discomfort and pain, and often we see people that they're not the right people, and they're not sitting in the right seat. So you know, there's going to be some casualties, but those casualties were going to come at some point, and that's part of business, but once you've got the consistency in place, actually, the smooth riding and the ability to be able to deal with situations. So we talk about every single organisation and individual has issues, problems and opportunities. However, what EOS allows you to do is to have the right space, the right framework, the right format, to be able to process those, taking out the emotion, so that you're able to bring, first and foremost, take ownership. Second of all, the right space and the right place to be able to bring them to the table. And then third, the tools to be able to kind of process them and come out with the with the right solution. So by having that then in place, what then starts happening is, is that you then start processing things a lot faster, a lot quicker, which means that you get to the root issues faster, which then means that the ability to be able to grow and get traction again, it's uncomfortable for some people, and they don't want to, you know, the fear of change and the fear of getting uncomfortable is too scary, and actually, let's stay in the status quo.

Debra Chantry-Taylor  23:40

I think what they were kind of getting at them is quite question was more around, you know, because we're so focused on quarterly rocks, which is often a new concept for people as well. But they're, they're saying, Do we lose sight of the longer term stuff because we're so focused on the short term? What I would say to that is that we've got the 10-year target, which really is the thing that guides everybody who's running the same direction. I love the three-year picture. See, I think the three-year picture is a really great tool, something I've not really seen before. EOS, where you've got your 10 year, big, hairy, audacious goal that most people kind of go but I don't know how we're going to get there. It's like, doesn't matter. That's what we're aiming for. We'll work that out along the way. The three-year picture does bring it down to the ground, and makes you really think about, okay, here we are now at one year. We've got, you know, in three years, where will we be? Which will take us towards a 10-year target, and I think that actually still keeps you focused enough on the long term, not just on the short term. So every rock has to fit in with how's that taking us towards our one year plan, our three year picture?

Adam Harris  24:30

Yeah, and I'd add to that in the fact that that three year picture can feel and seem achievable, and there's a time limit, so you know exactly when, when you're looking for and by painting that picture, even, you know, booking trips or booking events, you can, you know, put it in the calendar so you can, you can connect with it. And I think the other thing is, is that there's a saying that I heard years ago, which is, where the energy goes, the energy flows. So by setting those intentions as a collective. Because, let's be honest, often a business is going in the direction that the entrepreneur or the founder or the CEO is taking it. Not everybody knows where that is. So when the collective is all putting their energy into heading to the same direction, that's when you know, inadvertently, this magic starts to happen. It's almost kind of like the subconscious world. And, you know, the mycelium network is kind of, you know, putting all of the roots out there to allow us to achieve or aim and head towards what we're looking to get to.

Debra Chantry-Taylor  25:35

And I think also, you said earlier on, EOS is a journey or process. And it's like, because the reason we get together in 90 days is kind of review how things to kind of review how things are going. And there's so much learning in that every time. And then there's a learning in our first annual planning session. What have we learned in the past year? And how do we actually improve on that? And so businesses that I've worked with for 2345, years, what we're now seeing is that they are moving at pace, I believe, because they've learned all the lessons on that journey. Now they're really good at setting those three year pictures, one year plan, and those 90 day rocks, and it's just momentum. The momentum is just, you know, the flywheel is turning, yeah.

Adam Harris  26:09

And it kind of reminds me of this aspect of, kind of, you know, going to the gym, right? So the important thing is, is to get there to start with, so you get into the rhythm and the cadence and the consistency of showing up. And it's the days that you don't want to be there that you end up pushing yourself go. How did I get here? You know, and preparing setting yourself up for success. So having your gym kit by the side of your bed ready to go, make sure the alarm is going off at the right time, have a gym buddy that's going to hold you to account, and once you then start going, is that you then start doing the reps, and it's hard to start with, but you then sort of go past that period, and you go through the pain, and then, because you've been doing the reps, your ability to be able to do number of reps increases, and you only start increasing the weight. And that's exactly what happens with kind of EOS, is that a lot, I've observed a lot of people kind of drop off too quickly because it's too hard, so you gotta push through, push through, push through, push through. Ah, now we're just into that con that that flywheel is now going we've got the consistency, and we're now getting the results that we wanted to do.

Debra Chantry-Taylor  27:18

Perfect. Completely agree. Okay, two more No, a few more questions. In your opinion, does EOS assume that all leadership teams are ready for the level of transparency and accountability? Quiets.

Adam Harris  27:30

So I believe the leadership teams assume that they're ready or not ready, and then they make a decision accordingly. So they go, Oh, hang on a second. We've just got to sort this out. And Dave's leaving in six months, or we know that that person's going to go, or we've got to do all of this stuff. There is never a right time. There's never a wrong time to start. My suggestion is start as quickly as you can, because actually by going through the conversations and the process that we take them through, is actually what you start to happen is, is that you a lot of those issues will sort themselves out in one way or another. So there's always room for growth. And one of the, one of the things that naturally comes as a result because we focus in on this, is to get into the team health.

Debra Chantry-Taylor  28:20

Yeah, not just thinking the same thing. I think that, I don't think anybody's ever ready for quite the level of transparency that EOS kind of forces upon you, but you have to start somewhere. And I think that because it is a process and a journey, and we talk about, you know, it's up to two years where you really get this thing kind of nailed, and working with an implementer particularly, just means that you take it at a pace that is comfortable for the people there, but you're not letting things I call it pushing under the carpet. Like I find a lot of businesses here, they'll push things under the carpet. We'll just ignore that for a while. Ignore that for a while. You can't ignore it with the OS. And so it forces to face those real issues and understand what's going on, which brings about a level of transparency. And honestly, yep, we've had some pushback with people. Certainly we've lost some people on the way, but in general terms, the sooner you get started, the sooner stuff starts to happen, the sooner you get that that leadership team really fighting for the greater good and transparency becomes just the norm.

Adam Harris  29:11

It remind listening to this reminds me of a speaker friend of mine in the UK called Nigel Rizner, and he's really kind of on the line, controversial, and he used to come into my mastermind groups, and he'd ask people about their underperformers. It's like, why are you putting up with this? Oh, well, I think they're going to change. He's like, okay, get your wallet out now. And he literally pull 10, 2050, quid out of a wallet and go by enabling them. They're costing you money and they're stealing from you. So how long are you prepared to put up with this for? Go outside now ring your HR department and make the change that needs to be done. And people are Oh, yeah. It's like, we know what we need to do. But sometimes it's those, it's the people issues, a lot of the times that are the really challenging part. Because either you know, we've. Got long standing relationships with them. There's high levels of empathy. They've been with us for a long time.

Debra Chantry-Taylor  30:05

Oh, we're scared. It's a fear thing.

Adam Harris  30:08

Yeah, you know that that aspect of the confrontational part, you know, we don't want to do it. It's like you have a role and a responsibility, not just to yourself, but to the organisation and everybody else that works within the organisation to be achieving the standards and the expectations to allow the organisation to go forward every single time that you are accepting a decision or a behaviour that is not in line, becomes the norm and you're accountable.

Debra Chantry-Taylor  30:36

It’s really interesting to a client the other day who knew she had to deal with a people issue, and she was so scared of it, and it's like, well, you know, what's the worst that can really happen? So she went in there. She did, she did what she thought she had to do. She rang me after said, oh my goodness, I wish I'd had that conversation months ago. It's like, yes, yeah, no, most people do.

Adam Harris  30:52

And  that's the thing. Nobody ever turns around after having those conversations, going, I wish I didn't do had that conversation. It's always that case is that we should have done this sooner. So why aren't we? And for me, one of the great things about EOS is it normalizes the conversation, it brings it to a conscious level, and it's the ability to then just be more open and honest in calling things out, rather than holding this holding things tight, or having those side conversations going, Hey, Debra, can I tell you about Johnny? So no, let's Hey Johnny. Can we have a conversation? You're not doing what you said you were going to do. So what do I, what do we? What do you need to do to help us through this?

Debra Chantry-Taylor  31:32

I had another client. Do they had that they'd lost eight people because I'm one staff member, and it was like and I think that the owner knew this, and I think all the leadership team knew it as well, but they'd never actually had the conversation. And so just bringing that conversation into a quarterly session and actually having it in the open and talking about it, and talking about the impact, because we actually did some quick back of the envelope maps, eight people. Do you know, how much that cost to train, to bring on board to, you know, and then the cost of replacing them again that person had cost them literally millions of dollars. And it's like, how long are we going to keep going with this? Okay, perfect next one. Some critics argue that EOS can foster a cult like mentality with its strict adherence to the model. Do you think that's fair?

Adam Harris  32:21

Oh, I feel that anything where there is consistency and a set of standards, rules, framework, whatever you want to call it, will get to the stage that will create some level of following.

Debra Chantry-Taylor  32:39

I liken it to sport, though, right? You don't go onto a rugby field and go, we'll just make up the rules as we go along, or we'll follow some of them, but not others. In a rugby match, and I'm not a big sport fan, but a tennis match, I definitely understand tennis. There are certain rules, and you follow the rules, and that's how the game gets played. Everybody knows the rules of the game, and we play to win, and that's what you have to do to win.

Adam Harris  32:59

And I feel that the it comes from actually, everybody having clarity in the fact that I'm enthused and I'm excited. I'm a convert, I'm a follower, I'm a disciple. Because actually I'm now in a I'm now in a situation, in an organisation, following a framework that makes simplistic sense. I know who I am, I know what I am, and I know where, where and what I'm doing that's helping towards a bigger purpose. And everybody else on the team, as you like to call it, is doing exactly the same thing. So yeah, it will have massive evangelists, you know, we know them, and they're wearing all the kind of the gear.

Debra Chantry-Taylor  33:38

But we see it also. And I mean not just within EOS as implementers, but within the EOS community. I mean, like, you go to the EOS conferences and people are pumped about what they're achieving with their business, and that's passion and that, yeah, I mean, that does come across as cult like, but it's because they're seeing the results.

Adam Harris  33:53

And it's enabling them to live their entrepreneurial life like and, you know, don't underestimate how important that is. Is there's a reason why somebody set out in business, or there's a reason why somebody took over a business, and then stuff just happens, and when you're able to then just kind of decompartmentalize, and others are taking ownership and accountability, and we're all rowing in the same direction, and all of a sudden it's now the flywheel is working, and I'm able to do and get what I want to do from my business and do my life. That's why people are so many to use them excited, because it's working.

Debra Chantry-Taylor  34:31

Yeah, that’s right. Okay, so we'll accept the cult like thing, but I just liken it to sport. And I think that, you know, when I talk to teams about even things like introducing incentive schemes and profit sharing schemes, it's like people just enjoy games, right? Because games have got rules, they've got boundaries. You know how to win, and so when you know how to win, you just make sure that everything's focused on actually winning.

Adam Harris  34:47

And I think there's another thing is that, because EOS is not right for everybody, but what you typically tend to find is this, if there's an organisation that is using and following EOS. US, they've got a certain set of values, and they've probably got a certain culture which is going to be similar to other organisations, because you have to be of the right sort of mindset to want to engage and work and do so when you then suddenly meet, and I've had this is that I'm wearing, you know, an EOS cap, or am I wearing so and somebody comes up to me and go, Hey, you do EOS? It's like, oh, yeah, cool. So we're able to engage in a conversation, because that aspect of kind of, you know, take seven touch points to engage with somebody and build, know, like and trust. We're at six or seven straight away just because of the affiliation with EOS, because somebody and a team and a business is prepared to invest in themselves and their organisation because they want to grow for the for the greater good. And it's great. It's lovely.

Debra Chantry-Taylor  35:50

Yep. I've got an EOS hat, and I wrote a regular Okay, last question for us today. So is EOS truly necessary for a well run business? Can it create an unnecessary dependence on external systems and processes. Okay, so you already kind of asked us a little bit earlier. It's like, if things are working, and you can genuinely hand on heart say that things are working, and all those around you can hand on heart say things the biggest challenge, I think visionaries often go, yeah, yeah, everything's fine. Everything's working really well.

Adam Harris  36:18

It’s all really great. They don't really know what's going on. Do they?

Debra Chantry-Taylor  36:21

Oh, you’re just gonna ask somebody else, even the leadership team, and they kind of go, well, we don't know where we're headed or what we're doing, or, you know, yeah.

Adam Harris  36:27

So, what I would say is, do the organisational health check if you're scoring over 75-80, 85% not just you, the rest of the leadership team and potentially the wider business, if you're, if you're having those sort of scores, whatever you've got, is, is probably working right? And that's great. I think it's worthwhile having a look at some of the tools of EOS, because that may well be beneficial to add some of those things in, yep, that you're maybe not doing. But then the other thing, then, is to probably, especially if you're the visionary, is, what's the succession planning? Okay? So it may well be the case that it's being really well run because of me as the visionary. That's great. What's my what's my or our succession? If I was to take or step out of the organisation, is it going to continue to work? And if the answer is yes, well done to you, because you've absolutely you're probably in the top one to 2% if you've got some question marks, then just explore and look. And the chances are, if you've already got to that stage, your inquisitive, intuitive nature will mean that you will pick something up by just going through the process of having a little bit more of a look.

Debra Chantry-Taylor  37:37

Yeah. And I think one of the things I want to make a point of here is that organisational chapter is a great tool, and it really does give you some insight into what's working what's not working, but I think it's important that you do actually get other people to it's like doing a 360 feedback in terms of a performance reviews. It's like, at the end of the day, we sometimes, particularly as visionaries, we have an idea of where things are at which doesn't necessarily match in with where everybody else thinks it's at.

Adam Harris  38:00

The glass three quarters or nine tenths full. Yeah, exactly.

Debra Chantry-Taylor  38:03

And actually, that's really, really interesting. One of the things that I've found as I work through with, I think I've done sort of 60 odd businesses through EOS so far, is like, it's a scorecard thing that's really fascinating for me, because the visionaries want to push the scorecard measurables really high, and when they don't hit them, they kind of go, Oh, it's okay, because we will get there. But they forget that for most mere mortals, when you don't hit that scorecard several times in a row, it starts to become demotivating, because you actually go, we're dreaming. We're never going to get there. This is impossible. Why do we have this number there? And so sometimes we have to look, yeah, be really confident that the way that we see things may not be the way that people see things. And so as a visionary, I would just say, Yes, please do the organisational checkup. It's a great tool to do, but do get somebody else in your team to do it and have a look and just see if they're actually truly on the same page as you perfect. Okay, well, that was, that was the eight questions that we had. There was some pretty some really interesting ones in there, in terms of your EOS journey. So we're obviously running EOS and all of our businesses as well. Is there any kind of tips or tools that you can share from what you're learning through this process? As a visionary find a way to ensure that you bite your tongue?

Adam Harris  39:10

Yeah, look, it's it is challenging, but actually, with discomfort, that's where the growth comes from. And there's been times where, you know, I'm literally cursing, cursing myself, cursing other people. But if I'm not doing that, then there's a level of complacency. And I don't want to be in in a complacent state. You know, pushing the boundaries is really important for me and the businesses that I run, but also the businesses that I work with as well. What about you?

Debra Chantry-Taylor  39:41

Well, I just think the one thing I want to take from that, not take from this. But you've said to me before, I think it's the clarity creates confidence. And I think that's what EOS really does. It helps you to get that real clarity so you can achieve the results because you're on the same page. And I think often, if you're feeling any kind of level of fear or frustration, probably coming for a lack of clarity.

Adam Harris  40:00

Yeah, and there's two things as well that go on this, and how often do we make assumptions? And how so the question I ask is, is that an assumption, or is it a known fact? And when you start questioning and you start challenging, often, probably more often than not, we've come to an assumption based on our viewpoint. And actually what we need to do is we just need to have a conversation, pick up the phone, look at the accountability chart, check the scorecard, check the rocks, and go, Okay, is that an assumption or a known fact? And by asking that question, that then creates further clarity, and the more clarity you get is just it literally is just a case of, you know, if we've got 100 boats going off in all different directions, and all of a sudden we're just, we're just tweaking by 1% 1% 1% 1% we're now all just, we're now just going in the same direction.

Debra Chantry-Taylor  40:55

And so, I think one of the things that I've learned over the last few months, as well as like having those conversations when you think there's an issue, best thing you can do is, actually, I said, pick up the phone, talk to the person face to face, have a conversation. Make sure that you are looking at it from a factual point of view, as opposed to an emotional point of view, and use the IDS tool to kind of get through it. What's really going on here, and how do we solve it?

Adam Harris  41:18

And often, you know, when I'm coaching, as I say to somebody, look, you know, raise your hand and say, Hey, Debra, it might just be me, and I might not have clarity on this. And I'm just asking for confirmation. Can you just help me understand this situation, or, you know, this, this, whatever's going on. And if you take, if you take accountability of it first, because that person may well have told you, you may well have jumped to an assumption. So by asking for you, for them to give you clarity, they've not done it 99 times out 100 they're not doing it to be malicious or being vindictive. They've either done it because there isn't that clarity, or they believe that they're doing the right thing. So what makes me think that I should be the one that's telling you what to do, have a level of kind of honourable, honourability, and kind of take ownership and go, Hey, Debra. Look, it might just be me, but I'm not sure. Did you tell me about that thing? Or can you just give me some clarity? It makes so much difference.  

Debra Chantry-Taylor  42:16

Hey cool, that was really great conversation. There lots of really interesting questions. Thank you very much for your wisdom as always.

Adam Harris  42:22

Pleasure.

Debra Chantry-Taylor  42:23

I'll look forward to seeing you again soon.

Adam Harris  42:24

Thank you.

Debra Chantry-Taylor  42:25

Thank you.