Planning for Parental Leave with Erica Courdae & India Jackson

Susan Boles [00:00:02]:
How do you step away from your business for unnecessary break without losing momentum or compromising your values? Whether you're planning for parental leave or you want to take a sabbatical, figuring out how to actually make that happen can be pretty complicated. I'm your host, Susan Bowles, and this is beyond margins, the show where we geek out about what it takes to build a calmer business with comfortable margins. Right now on the show, we're exploring breaks, leaves, and sabbaticals and all of the different ways that you can approach planning for them, whether that's deciding on the right approach for you, figuring out how to serve your clients while you're out, or just squirreling away enough cash in the bank to make it through your break. On the last episode, I took you behind the scenes of my own unplanned and involuntary sabbatical. So if you haven't already listened to that one, you might want to go check that out first. Today I'm talking to India Jackson and Erika Korday, the partners behind paws on the play. India is just coming back from parental leave after having her first child. And together, Erika and India have navigated the complexities of planning for leaves, both operationally and financially.

Susan Boles [00:01:16]:
So for a little bit of a context to the conversation here, pause on the play is now a resource library, podcast and consultancy. But before Indias leave, it also had a pretty robust community that went along with it that Erica and India decided to shut down as part of this planned leave. Well talk more about that in the interview. But even if youre not someone whos planning for a parental leave specifically, the unique approach that Erica and India took can really be applied to planning for any kind of leave. So why don't y'all give me a little bit of background, kind of set the scene here a little bit. What was going on behind the scenes as you were kind of leading up to really both India going on maternity leave but also considering shutting down your community. Give me, give me a little bit about, like, the lead up there.

India Jackson [00:02:15]:
Oh, yeah. I definitely think one of the things going on behind the scenes was the maternity leave portion. So realizing, like, oh, time for self care and family must be prioritized because I literally have to go into labor and delivery in that first phase of transitioning my life in my calendar to match having a newborn. But also along the way, there were health challenges. I feel like all the signs were there for both of us in different ways, showing us like, oh, we need to prioritize taking care of ourselves and being present for making sure. That the people in our family are able to get the care that they need as well.

Erica Cordae [00:02:59]:
Absolutely. And I think that we have always been very transparent with each other, which it's always so interesting to us because people are like, how do y'all do this in this partnership? And we're like, this is not rocket science, but, okay, y'all think this is, like, something weird that we're doing, but we talk very openly and very candidly about our lives so that we are not setting these false expectations of how we can or cannot show up based on where life is at that moment. And so there was this desire, even before maternity leave came up of, you know, what does simplification look like? What does sustainability like? How does this play out? And what it was that we needed to live the life that we wanted to live, because business is great, but to set yourself up to be the worst boss ever was not something that we wanted. And we stay very cognizant of, like, let's not do that to one another or to ourselves.

Susan Boles [00:04:04]:
So talk me through kind of how the two of you decided what the future was going to look like for you. India is getting ready to go on maternity leave. You guys are having these conversations, but how did you actually walk through making that decision, particularly given that there's two of you, which is a lot more complicated than just a solo founder deciding to do something with their business, both of you balancing those needs. So kind of walk me through how that decision worked for you.

India Jackson [00:04:39]:
Yeah, I'll say. Playing off of what Erica mentioned is that we have very open and candid conversations with each other. And some context is that we were friends long before we owned the business together, and we had worked together in a capacity long before pause and the play existed just in different ways and not under owning the same company together. And so part of that is we have personal conversation just because we want to. We're friends, you know, but also realizing that those conversations inform decisions that we're making. And then we check in with each other a minimum of once a week to just get a quick feel of, like, what's going on in your world this week, whether that is life things happening, were business things happening, how does that affect your schedule? How does that affect your bandwidth? And as we were doing a lot of those check ins along the way, we kept noticing certain things coming up to where it became, like, a bigger conversation. Now, because we're aware a lot earlier from doing those types of check ins with each other that, hey, maybe family needs more attention, right? Now, or maybe health needs more attention right now, you know, realizing that certain business tasks, like, just felt like a time suck. So how can we simplify these things? Certain things kept standing out to us as like, these are the things to pay attention to.

India Jackson [00:06:08]:
And I think that that informed us really shifting little things along the way before we made the big decision to close. And so what I mean by that is realizing the complexity of some of the software that we were using and how, like, why does it take an hour to do this thing, for example, that maybe could take 30 minutes if we did something else? Providing a tangible example of that. One of the things that we realized was we were using a software for our email communication, mass email communication, such as newsletters, as well as communicating directly with our community members through that system that had a lot of extra functionality and features that we did not use or need, such as being able to tag and put people into different funnels and stuff like that. We were not using those features. So it made it a lot more complicated if, say, Erica wanted to go in and just send out a quick message, because there's all these extra functions that it's like, I don't know what to do with these things all the time. It's like, hmm, maybe we need to look at a less complex software because this will make it easier for both of us to use it.

Erica Cordae [00:07:24]:
And the interesting part about it is, I have two kids. My kids are ten and twelve. So I've been through this process of having a business and having to go on maternity leave and what needs to be handed over, what needs to be off the plate. How long do you plan on being out? What is this process in your head versus how it actually plays out? And so I had a lot of thoughts for myself of like, I want this to be different for you than what it was for me. And I know what some of this is in practice and not just in theory. And so part of it also was that we made that choice to not have a lot of lingering open loops when maternity leave came up. And so the community was one of those when, like, you know, India mentioned the, the email platform. And so the simplification of what was happening and trying to take things off the plate, not having as many things to deal with, making sure that nobody had to worry about making a whole lot of decisions, being that we do have a partnership, but we also trust one another to make good decisions.

Erica Cordae [00:08:26]:
But trying to minimize that as a whole was important because too many things open just that wasn't helpful.

Susan Boles [00:08:34]:
No, I can imagine. And I'm sure it was super beneficial for Erica for you have to actually, like, been there, done that. You are very aware of what is. What's coming, because I. Yeah, I know that, like, having my own kid, it was. My expectations of what was going to happen were very, very different than the actual reality of having a kid.

Erica Cordae [00:09:04]:
Oh, my gosh. And I remember for me, at that point, I was still really heavy in the beauty industry, and so I had weddings and salon clients, and so I literally had to get back to standing behind a chair day after day after day and still making time to pump and doing all these other things. And I was just like, I don't want this for you. But also, you know, there were some things that I learned that did make it easier. I was like, one, take more time than what you think you need. Two, give yourself an on ramp and an off ramp. So it's not like, okay, I'm gonna leave my kid, and I'm just gonna go back, and it's all gonna be fine. And it's like, that's not how that works.

Erica Cordae [00:09:38]:
So, you know, it really was that place of, like, what needs to happen, because you are going through. There's the person that you were before you got pregnant. There's the person that you are going through pregnancy. There's going through labor and delivery, and now having a child and becoming a parent and now having to reintegrate back into life, and that's a lot of stages to go through, and you need the space to be able to figure out, what does that mean? And it was extremely important to make sure that life did not end up having more complexity ladled on top of it, because we did not simplify the business in these ways that we could have made different choices.

Susan Boles [00:10:20]:
So how far leading up to India going on maternity leave did you guys start planning for this?

Erica Cordae [00:10:29]:
Oh, almost right away. I feel like. I feel like little by little, we started kind of having the conversation, and then the conversation expanded as she got closer and closer. But right away, that conversation was there because, again, we talk. And so there was that openness, but there was also that need to talk because, see, it's so easy for people to think, oh, well, it's the after part, right? And it's like, wait, bang. Not for everybody, but being pregnant for a lot of us, me included, sucked.

Susan Boles [00:11:00]:
Yep.

Erica Cordae [00:11:01]:
So, you know, you don't feel good. You're exhausted. Your brain is not clear. And so there had to be conversations around whatever the expectations were then. And I'm like, hey, you know, this ain't gonna get no better. Very likely. And it might. And if it does, I love that for you, but it might not.

Erica Cordae [00:11:18]:
So let's plan if it doesn't. And that, I think, was really helpful because I did not want her to feel like she couldn't take care of herself or me. Knowing that my friend, business partner, who was type a and wants to do all the things and get it done and wrap it up. I didn't want her feeling like my brain is not working, and now I feel terrible because I can't do a thing that was not gonna help at all.

Susan Boles [00:11:43]:
You mentioned kind of an on ramp and an off ramp. Tell me a little bit more about what that looked like for you. All.

India Jackson [00:11:51]:
Part of the ramp going towards just before being on maternity leave, and it started long before that happened, was also, like, managing expectations. It's one thing to witness other people having children or going on sabbaticals or whatever that might be. It's another to actually be in it and doing it. Just bouncing the ideas off of, how long did you take for maternity leave? Talking to other people and realizing my idea of, oh, I can do four weeks, and I'll be right back at it full throttle, was not realistic at all. Everyone I talked to said, hey, you need to do a minimum of eight. So I did nine. And I'm gonna acknowledge that's just, like, one more week than the minimum. But, yeah, those kind of decisions was a big part of that on ramp to say, hey, we're moving towards, like, the sleeve happening.

India Jackson [00:12:51]:
And then also a big part of it as well, was like, what can we do today to prepare for tomorrow, even though this is happening months from now, but what can we do? So small decisions, like our email platform, small decisions, like, realizing that the space that we held our community in, or the online container that housed it, was pretty complex, and it had a lot of features that we were not using, but also the members were no longer using as well. There was a time and a season where we were private messaging each other through the software, and we were posting, posting, super consistent. And then we realized that our community had evolved so much that they were so close that everyone was just, like, actually calling and texting each other at a time where no one gives out their real phone number online anymore anyway, and so. Hmm, maybe we should take this into consideration. Do we need all of this extra things in our online container? If people have built the relationships that we were hoping that they built in the first place, ones that they feel safe and comfortable enough to actually connect in, like, real life with voice. And it doesn't have to be over Zoom or it doesn't have to be because there was a prescheduled call. And so as we're witnessing that, we're like, hmm, maybe we should consider what does that mean as well for how we kind of put this space together? What is this community anymore?

Erica Cordae [00:14:23]:
Right? In our community? And when I say community, I mean our peers, our network, our people went far beyond any online container or any container to try to piece them into it. Part of that kind of, like, off ramp going onto maternity leave was also connecting with our people, some of which were community members, some of which were clients of letting them know what was going on and making sure that we kind of had wrapped up anything that they needed or answered any questions of, okay, well, what's coming next or when can go ahead and schedule some things going forward in the future. So we made sure to make those connections. And the reality is, is that very few people were heavily about, well, let's talk about the work. They were more like, no, let's talk about you. How are you feeling? How are things going? Is it everything okay?

Susan Boles [00:15:14]:
Are you sick?

Erica Cordae [00:15:15]:
I was sick, or my wife was sick, or whatever that might be. So we just continuously had it reinforced for us that our people were our people, period.

Susan Boles [00:15:27]:
I love that. So as you were, as you're setting up this kind of on ramp to maternity leave, you're talking about simplifying your business. You're making different choices to make the business easier to run long term. Talk me through a little bit about, like, what actually happened as you were deciding how long you were going to take off India, what you were going to do with the business during that time, what Erica's role was going to be. Talk me through a little bit of kind of the specifics of what the plan ended up becoming.

Erica Cordae [00:16:02]:
Interestingly enough, for me, there wasn't a whole lot that I had to do because we had really wrapped a lot of things up. Anything that needed to be billed was on auto pay, anything that needed to be taken care of large decision wise, we had already done it. Any small things that came up where, like, there was one thing that came up for renewal that I was like, oh, I don't know what we want to do with this. And I remember having a moment in my head like, hmm, I don't know what I want to do. I don't want to talk to her. Cause I don't want to ask her anything about work. And I was like, I'm just going to put it on monthly and then I'll figure it out. If we want to go back to and you'll so be it.

Erica Cordae [00:16:37]:
So I knew that she trusted me to make the decision, and so I wanted to really protect that container for her to let her be off and not come back into work in any way, shape, or form. And with the community that took something else off the plate of what to do and more facilitation that needed to be done. But what it did do was open up the opportunity to, again, have these conversations with people, which I did continue while she was away. But I do a lot of the peopling, I'll call it. So that wasn't something that was different. So in a lot of ways, business continued on the way that it was, because we had set things up in a way that also utilized our strengths, because we found out a long time ago that trying to both do all the same things did not make sense. So we would divide and conquer in a way that made sense for what am I better at? What was she better at? What did we actually enjoy? And then it also left a space to figure out, what do we not want to do? Like, we changed some of the platforms that, like, we housed videos on and things like that, so we got rid of what we didn't need. We made those decisions ahead of time, so I didn't have to worry about it.

Erica Cordae [00:17:53]:
And she knew that it didn't have to take up space in her head, either.

India Jackson [00:17:57]:
Yeah, and I'll also say we made, like, a really big decision, and I'm going to acknowledge that we had the privilege to make this decision, and I'm so grateful for it that we didn't take on any new projects while I was on leave for the company. We completed the projects that we already had in works before my leave started, and we actually had, like, a few extra days after that to kind of just, like, debrief everything before the leave started as well, make sure if there was anything we missed. We still had a few days to wrap that up, but we completed the final project early, and the community had closed before my leave started as well. So it kind of allowed Erica to take that time and really focus on some other projects that she had going on as well. Erica, I'm so proud of her and excited for her. Actually wrote a book and published it during my maternity leave that was able to really go into the forefront of her time and attention because there weren't these projects to have to continue to maintain while one of us was out.

Susan Boles [00:19:04]:
You kind of created sort of a mini sabbatical for both of you. And Erica, you just decided to take on a different project that was for you, but still essentially sabbatical from your overall regular work. That's awesome.

Erica Cordae [00:19:20]:
That was exact. And I remember having that comment like, I'm gonna kind of go on sabbatical while you're gone. I was like, I don't know what that's gonna mean, but we'll figure it out. And so I was able to put some efforts into other places, and even now, you know, with kind of having that on ramp of her coming back into work, I don't feel like, well, man, now I can't do what I want to do. I don't feel that at all. I think that that goes back to that piece of that communication and that honesty around, you know, what really does or does not need to happen, period.

India Jackson [00:19:51]:
Absolutely. And I'll say, like, some context on that onramp. We're recording this within my first, like, 14 days back to work, and this is only, like, my second video meeting with anyone. So it's truly been, like, a slow on ramp.

Susan Boles [00:20:10]:
I love the slow on ramp, and I think that's. It's a really unique approach that you guys took to essentially pause the business. It sounds like during this time, instead of trying to either continue with Erica taking on, you know, basically everybody's work for the time being, how did you financially and operationally plan for, essentially, the company kind of shutting down for a few months?

Erica Cordae [00:20:41]:
I mean, I think part of that was, again, having the conversations ahead of time, knowing what our finances were, of what still needed to be taken care of along the way. And, again, that was that long before it actually became time to do anything of, like, okay, what needs to happen? How long might this be? What's going to cover those things along there? But also understanding that even though things kind of stopped, they didn't come to a screeching halt, so to speak, because the work that we do in pause on the play is very heavily based in values, and the work that I do with my business, Erica Corday, is also heavily based in values. And so it wasn't this strange thing to still continue to talk about both brands. I still continue to have these types of conversations when I would meet new people and when I would network, and I was continuing to do these things, and I had a little bit more time to do that than what I did have before, purposefully, because I'm like, great. I can kind of jump in the deep end with a little bit of this, I was continuing to talk about it, so it was continuing to keep the legion of it going. And so even though we weren't taking on new projects, there was still the awareness of it and the kind of, you know, furthering the existence of it and talking to people and connecting with people and is this something that could benefit you? And, you know, that part did still keep going, but knowing what the numbers were, what needed to happen during that time, and also what needed to happen in that, you know, coming back in, so it didn't feel like, oh, my gosh, now we gotta figure it out. It was having that conversation, but also giving grace, because we're all living in a world where things are questionable, and so we made sure to also give ourselves grace of like, you know, no, you're not going to come back, and all of a sudden, we're going to have this huge, booming month right away. So it was giving ourself the space to come in in that way, too, because to do that also felt disingenuous to what we had created.

India Jackson [00:22:51]:
Yeah, I'm glad you mentioned values, Erica, because it makes me think about our value of accessibility. And part of that is also like, people literally being able to access something on demand, if possible. And so one of the things that I realized was a decision that we made is you're able to purchase the content that was inside of our community as a resource library now. And that's available as soon as you purchase it at this point. So there's no longer like a need to onboard them into another system or a human to have to, like, put their email address into something. It's an automatic process, a lot like buying a course. And if someone did still need help while I was out with being able to write their bio for different platforms or decolonize their time or anything like that, that are, some of the workshops inside our resource library were able to purchase that and were purchasing those types of things while I was out. So that did generate some revenue for the business and also, like, our value of really honoring, like, how we work best.

India Jackson [00:24:06]:
And one of the realizations that Erica and I had is that I personally work best, being able to go really deep with something and do it in almost like a vip day or half vip day style workshop versus spreading out work over multiple weeks. We were able to still sell our signature workshop implicit to explicit. And our system on the back end is set up to where, if a client purchases that they're able to schedule the day that they do it with their team and us, and they were just only able to see days after I came back from maternity leave. We also intentionally did not make any of those days available within the first two weeks that I'm back from maternity leave, because I knew that, you know, it's going to be an adjustment coming back to work and having to reintegrate that into my life while also navigating the unique nature of lactation and pumping and those things.

Susan Boles [00:25:05]:
I love that for you all, instead of approaching this break, this sabbatical, as something that was going to just be this container, you really looked at, how can the business function to be able to support this? And then looking at that over the long term, it wasn't just you saying, we're going to do this break, and then we're going to come back to business as usual. It really was an opportunity for you to really deeply examine what the business had become and evaluate what you wanted it to be in the future. So I really love that approach. Talk to me a little bit now about like, you've been through the leave. You had those kind of conversations leading up to the leave coming back. What have you kind of learned from that process of both reimagining but also then actually taking the break and coming back? What looks different now than when you were leading up to this?

India Jackson [00:26:15]:
I'll definitely say one of the things that has been so important to me coming back is making sure that values show up in our conversations with each other and our decisions every single time. And so I wouldn't say it's like a change necessarily, because we were doing this before, but it has become the priority for our conversations now. Instead of like, okay, this is a part of what we do. Like, no, this is what we're doing first is asking ourselves, is the decision we're going to make or the way that we're spending our time or the project that we're taking something that is possible to generate joy, and how can we do that with ease. These are two things that are not necessarily a part of our brand's values, but they're part of how we operate. Values is asking those kind of questions, and sustainability comes up with that as well. Another thing I'll say that has changed is like our newsletter platform and some software things as well, because of those questions of does this make us feel joyful when we use it, or do we have like, oh, no, I have to open this thing again and log in? And is it easy?

Susan Boles [00:27:31]:
Like, I'm a software geek and I am a big fan of people using tools that make sense to them, that make sense to their brain, but I've never, like, heard it phrased like Joy, like, do you actually enjoy using this tool? Do you enjoy using the software? And I love that. What was the biggest challenge as you were actually on your break? What was the hardest part for each of you as actually living this break versus the expectation of what it's going to be like? What were the challenges that popped up?

Erica Cordae [00:28:09]:
Strangely enough, and we talked about this, I actually didn't have a lot of challenges, and I think part of it was because we plan, but also over the years of working together and talking each other through some, you know, like, life evolutions, we've kind of hit this place of, like, if it really doesn't matter, it doesn't matter. And so I really didn't have any. And the thing that I thought might be a challenge actually wasn't a challenge, and that was the possibility of work trying to infiltrate its way into the break. And I actually saw her quite a bit over the break. Like, I mean, like, I was at the hospital the day of. I was like, wait, where's my child?

India Jackson [00:28:56]:
I have claimed, I think you were the first visitor. Right?

Erica Cordae [00:29:00]:
Yep. Yep. So I was like. I was like, you just tell me and I'm on my way. I'm ready. And I've, you know, I've. I've spent a lot of time with her and her family, and it wasn't until probably the past three ish weeks maybe that business even remotely came up. It just was not a part of the conversation.

Erica Cordae [00:29:23]:
There was no point of like, oh, I really want to talk about this. No, it actually wasn't a concern. And so if it was a challenge, it was more of that challenging of understanding in my body that we were actually able to let go of this thing that everybody tells you you're not supposed to.

India Jackson [00:29:42]:
The hustle, culture, the work, work, work. Push harder. Right?

Susan Boles [00:29:48]:
How about you, India? What was. What was a challenge or different than what you expected it to be?

India Jackson [00:29:55]:
I'll just say.

Susan Boles [00:29:57]:
I mean, new parent, the medical.

India Jackson [00:30:02]:
But as far as the work world, honestly, I was very surprised in myself because I am that person that even when I'm on vacation, I might open and check the email and, you know, message. Erica, I got this idea to try this thing next, and I was very, very proud of myself, but none of that came up at all.

Susan Boles [00:30:25]:
Do you think that was because there wasn't actually anything moving? Like, there wasn't anything that you needed to touch base on or keep up with, because your decision to kind of pause everything meant you didn't need to.

Erica Cordae [00:30:42]:
Right? And like I said, there were times that from a networking and interacting with people and keeping those conversations going, it did come up, but I didn't need to tell her, so I didn't. And so now, as we've continued to have these conversations, I'm like, oh, yeah, that thing. Oh, yeah, I forgot about that. So now I'm filling her in. But things were happening, and I didn't bring it up because it wasn't more important than what was going on. And to not bring it up in that moment wasn't going to change the trajection of anything. The trajectory was gonna be fine if I waited. And so, again, that's that hustle culture of, like, if I don't say this thing to you right now, is it still okay? And it was.

India Jackson [00:31:25]:
Yeah, I'll say, for me, not necessarily a challenge, but a big lesson or realization I truly enjoyed, like, being able to spend so much time together just as friends, you know, with Erica, like, getting to be around my little one and getting all her snuggles in and just catching up on life. And it's something that we made time to do over the years anyway. But I think that the lesson here from this break is I want more of that for the two of us to be able to have together beyond the work. You know, sometimes people talk about, like, uncontaminated time and realizing that, I want more time for us where we can connect as friends, where we don't talk about work at all. And I want that for us and some of the other business, friendships and community that we have. There's so many beautiful things that happen when we just connect as humans, and the work is going to happen, the referrals and the business and all that is going to happen. So really, just making the space to be humans with each other is what's showing up for me.

Susan Boles [00:32:34]:
Have you thought about how you're going to actually implement that? Because I think it's super practical for anybody who perhaps works with a spouse as a business partner or a good friend as a business partner, how are you thinking about trying to protect or keep that time uncontaminated? How are you thinking about building that into your relationship going forward?

India Jackson [00:32:59]:
Yeah. One of the things that we did before the leave happened is we intentionally, because it's very easy to have, like, communication. You have so many ways to communicate with each other. You can email, you can voxer, you can text, you can all the things right. And so we've intentionally began to say, hey, texting each other is for personal only in voxers for work. So we have, like, clear containers for that communication, because it's easy to realize something at any old time, and you're going into the platform and you don't know if it's work or if it's personal. And then another thing that has been on my radar when it comes to protecting that time with the larger community that we have together is bringing more of the personal back to the professional. So with our newsletter, we realized that it was very much like addressing the things that people wanted us to talk about and things like that, but it was leaving some of our humanity behind sometimes.

India Jackson [00:33:57]:
So now our newsletter has, like, a section of what Erica's up to and what I'm up to, and it was shared in that communication that I did deliver the baby, and, you know, we're healthy and at home and. Okay, and that's something that maybe we wouldn't have shared with our audience at large before, in the past.

Susan Boles [00:34:14]:
Oh, I like that.

Erica Cordae [00:34:16]:
Yeah. It shows up for me in relationships in the sense of it's really important to know people and to try to have relationships with them where they feel as though they can be who they are. And so, like Indy and I know that work can so easily flood stuff, it's really easy for it to happen. And we knew each other before marriages, before children. We've had this long standing kind of understanding of each other, but also continuing to learn about ourselves and one another over time, because there has been, you know, twenties, thirties, and, you know, now forties for me, like, that's three different stages of my life that she's known me through, and I'm not the same human that she met all those years ago in a good way. And I can proudly say that about myself. And I try to hold that space for other people that I know in the sense of, you know, what is it that I need in those dynamics in order for both of us to feel like we can do what we need to? So if it is having different containers, if it is being able to have that change of scenery that helps, what is it that needs to happen to allow people to feel as though their life isn't deprioritized for business? Because I am fortunate that a lot of my friends are also entrepreneurs, which in some ways really helps because we understand each other. But at the same time, just like we're talking about right now, it can be so easy that it always turns into work and you know, it's being able to figure out, what does someone need in this season of life? And being able to honor that and knowing that it's not always going to be that way and being fluid and malleable enough to shift as necessary.

India Jackson [00:36:02]:
Yeah. And I'll say, like, connection and community has always been so important to us. So one of the things that is on my radar in this moment is we've actually, like, built in opportunities to connect with our community over something that's not related to what we do, but is related to that internal value that we have for our business, which is a joy and ease. So Eric and I absolutely love and enjoy roller skating. And we've done, like, roller skating meetups at the local roller skating rink where we invite other business owners, but we also invite our kids and our family and their friends. And it's an environment where we don't talk about work at all. We're just all having fun, either doing cool tricks, roller skating, or in the case of me sometimes and others falling on our butts and laughing at us.

Erica Cordae [00:36:51]:
I was gonna say trying to. It don't always work, but, you know.

India Jackson [00:36:54]:
We try, but that's another way that we found to. I don't even want to, like, say, leverage, but it is leverage time, because we set a date, and time and multiple people can come, but to really just connect over something fun together and it doesn't have to be about anything business related.

Susan Boles [00:37:15]:
Yeah, and I think it's really hard to find those kinds of spaces, particularly when a lot of your friends are business owners. And that is the natural, like, conversation. That's the natural thing that we all gravitate to, because that's what we have in common. I love this idea of being able to take something kind of random and realize that you can still connect with folks over something that is not the thing that you have in common.

India Jackson [00:37:40]:
And also, we're giving them the grace to say, you have a whole life, and you may have a family or a partner that you want to spend time with, too, on the weekends. Bring them. It doesn't have to be. You don't have to segment out your life in the ways that we're told we have to so much.

Erica Cordae [00:37:56]:
And so this is where I have a question for you, because what I think is happening as well is that we're also recognizing where we're in partnerships with people that, you know, a number of us, including myself, are recognizing where there are some neurodivergence or aka neuro spicy happening. And so some of this also gives a place to where you may feel a little bit more ease to unmask, because we're all told that we have to do things in this very specific way. And being able to feel like you can go and be human and not, you know, be forced to always be the business owner can allow people to feel like they can not only be more of themselves, but they can figure out, what does it actually even mean to be myself?

Susan Boles [00:38:42]:
I love that because that was part of my kind of, while I was away on my sabbatical, was also realizing, you know, the narrow divergence of both myself and everybody in my household. We have many flavors, and, like, really recognizing how. Being aware of how your brain and your body really prefer to exist and being able to lean into that, even if it is contrary to popular expectations or what people are expecting you to be, and being able to unpack that and unrealize and unmask all of those things, I think, really does contribute to feeling more like yourself. And when you can be open about it with other people who then accept that about you, I think it does take a lot of the burden off of trying to perform being someone versus just getting to be yourself and relax and be natural. So going back to kind of the overall leave, everything you guys have learned during this process, is there anything you think we should be talking about that we haven't talked about or touched on yet?

Erica Cordae [00:39:59]:
I can't think of anything off the top of my head because I think the biggest thing for me is, you know, we addressed how the values were such the foundation for everything that we did and all the choices we made and the decisions and, you know, the contemplation of the options. And that's, I think, one of the biggest things that I think can be so easy to put on the back burner, but it really makes a big difference in how you're able to make choices and then actually take action on them. We knew what mattered to us. We knew what we did or did not want to amplify, and we held space for what was possible. We were willing for this to not be perfect, but to figure it out along the way. And we knew that making sure that, first and foremost, that India and the baby were good to go and that she had what she needed. I mean, the reality is, yes, we all need money, but I can't replace them. And so them having what they needed and it needed to fan out from there, and that was representative of our values.

Erica Cordae [00:41:05]:
And we were able to make sure that our businesses and our lives were able to be honored around that. That's being really picked up in everything that we talked about, every decision that we made, even if somebody else would think, well, I would have made a different decision, and there could have been different decisions. These were just the decisions that we made, and I'm really proud of what we were able to do.

India Jackson [00:41:28]:
Yeah, I think that people talk about, you know, people first and relationship building. One thing that has kind of been in the back of my mind is just like a genuine curiosity of how many other people in the business world and a leadership role are really building their relationships based on things that are not necessarily directly related to work. Are we offering the opportunity and the space to do that, to go beyond? Here's what I sell and who I'm selling it to. That's where Eric and I started, you know, a traditional business that was not online. And the more that we talked, especially leading up to the leave and after the leave, is realizing, getting back to the basics of just making friends, being nice and kind to other people, finding things to connect about that you genuinely enjoy or are fired up about and pissed off. Whichever it may be, those foundations for a relationship is then what leads to the referrals and sales. It's not necessarily what you know or the business piece, or the traditional idea what networking needs to be.

Susan Boles [00:42:44]:
Your leave can really look however you want it to look, and you can absolutely build it around your values, your priorities, your joy. As we saw with Erica in India. One of the ideas for from this conversation that has really resonated with me is this idea of building on ramps and off ramps to breaks, the idea of smoothing out these transitions. We often think about leaves as just this distinct block of time that you're away from your business. But the reality is that the longer, more gradual transitions might actually end up feeling better to you. For Erica and India, part of that on ramp and off ramp was focusing on making the middle part easier by radically simplifying their business, which has made their lives and their work better and more joyful. Even after this leave was over, your on ramp could include considering what you want your business to feel like when you come back from a break, and then simplifying or building towards that even before you leave, reflect on your own business business. How could simplifying your operations make a future break more feasible for you? What systems do you need to evaluate or change to prepare for your own time away? Where are there opportunities to build on ramps and off ramps? And remember, taking a break isn't just about stepping away it's about coming back stronger, refreshed, and ready to tackle your business challenges with new energy and perspective.

Susan Boles [00:44:19]:
Next time, I'll be talking to Layla Pomper from process driven, who is one of my favorite fellow operations nerds. We're going to be going deep in the weeds talking about the operational logistics of planning for a break. We'll talk about what systems and processes you need to be building now to prepare. We'll talk about lazy training as a really great tool and what happens if one of your team members has to take an unexpected leave. How do you handle that? So make sure you hit subscribe wherever you listen to podcasts. You don't miss that one. In the meantime, if you found this episode useful, I'd really appreciate you leaving a review on Apple Podcasts or Spotify or sharing this with a business owner that you think could benefit from a listen or is thinking about planning their own leave. It really means a ton, and it helps me grow this show.