CMCL Interview: Wesley Hamilton

Transcript

00:00.00

Julie Sowash

All Right. Welcome to the next episode probably my most favorite episode maybe forever I don't know of changing mind changing lives podcast. My name is Julie Sowash I'm the executive director of disability solutions and if you've listened to our last few pods which I highly recommend with some amazing guests. Um, you've heard me talking about Wes Hamilton joining us today and how I am such a ah fangirl for lack of a better word. Um, so I don't want to waste any time because Wes is finally here. Um, i. So just so glad and thankful to welcome Wests Hamilton to changing minds changing lives if you don't know Wes ah, he's a community activist adaptive athlete and the founder of disabled but not really and in 2012 Wes was paralyzed from the waist down. And he has since worked through this amazing physical rehabilitation and mental transformation to start his foundation disabled but not really and he's also an ada consultant a de consultant obviously a founder and a Ceo of an organization and a public figure out of. Kansas City Missouri but I would say he is an international figure if you didn't catch him. He was also on queer eye in 2019. That's how I got to know him but he's been in the game a lot longer than that. So Wes. Thank you, thank you for joining us I'm so excited.

01:29.41

Julie Sowash

Give us your Twitter bio. What's something that everyone doesn't know about the West Hamilton

01:36.20

Wesley Hamilton

No, absolutely thank you for having me. It is an honor to just be having this conversation. What is my Twitter bio. Um I am the representation. Could not find and I am a student of life. Um, when I break that down just for anyone. Um I wear a lot of hats. But I like the ownership of who I am the identities that I represent. Um, and what that impacts others but then I also like to reference myself as a student of life because I don't know it all and I want to be an open book to learn daily without feeling like I I my opinions are my perspectives are the the right thing. So yeah, there.

02:28.24

Julie Sowash

Yeah, well, that's very good. Um and congratulations to your Kansas City Chiefs on their super bowl win not too long ago I saw you celebrating on your Tiktok I think awesome. Yeah, it was. It was a good game. Um, so.

02:29.13

Wesley Hamilton

Yeah.

02:42.00

Wesley Hamilton

Um, absolutely.

02:47.87

Julie Sowash

You know I've been kind of catching up on some of the things that you've been doing lately. Um, some of the speaking you've been doing and I was listening to an interview you did with Lolo Spencer um and it was ah it made me laugh because it was like ah a no bullshit like absolutely here we are. We're going to say what we think. And that's what I love because she she said at spot on influencers in our community. The disabled community are sad and we're mad and we're like sort of wear this like woe is me on our on our chest a lot and I I was thinking about it today. And it it almost seems like we're wearing that internalized ableism that if we aren't solely our disability then people might think it's not real. They may think it's not impactful. They may I don't know forget about it. Um, which I don't think we need to worry about. But.

03:35.66

Wesley Hamilton

The f.

03:40.55

Julie Sowash

Um, you know what I loved a lot about that conversation and what we're starting to see with disabled black influencers kind of being seen in our community so much more is that you you have created like a different approach.

03:55.32

Wesley Hamilton

In.

03:57.20

Julie Sowash

Um, it's Joyful. It's Driven. It's motivated to like let's get living and I'm just curious as how do you think? I mean as a white woman with a disability I can tell you how I think but how do you think that that growing recognition recognition in the disability community as more than just white. Um, is influencing our conversations about ourselves at a community level how we approach life. Um with like a fully human experience.

04:26.80

Wesley Hamilton

Absolutely you know I think that for so long disability has been white landed and the representation of it has never really shown the diversity within it. So um, because of that that's allowed. The black community to really lack ownership of disability. You know, um, when you go around individuals that are from diverse backgrounds majority. Ah um, will say that you know this might have been their first interaction with someone that looks similar to them.

04:57.97

Julie Sowash

Are.

04:59.97

Wesley Hamilton

Um, you know most facilities rehabilitation centers. There are most of them. Don't you really don't see diversity in there. You know, um as well as a lot just frankly, a lot of African Americans Um, they don't have insurance so they're not going to the best rehabs to be able to see different community of people. They're going to.

05:11.45

Julie Sowash

If.

05:19.46

Wesley Hamilton

Um, some of these other hospitals. So what I think that the approach there has happened is at least for me and my perspective and even so my peers like Lolo and Stephanie Thomas and you know um I just I think we just understood that we wasn't seen and and. To the to the point of not only just not being seen but we're still going to be seen as black first and when you look at disability sometimes people just have that identity because that's what's been portrayed for so long. Um, and I think for us it was kind of like. At least for me, it was like well you know I I do want to own all my identities that I represent. Um and I want to show what that looks like because I don't see this as a problem when I look in a mirror I don't look at. The medical or charity type of model I speak a lot about those just because that's what we've always seen I think society has been you know, projected in a sense to be able to see disability as a sick thing or feel sorry for sympathy.

06:17.31

Julie Sowash

Um.

06:24.95

Julie Sowash

And.

06:29.33

Wesley Hamilton

Um, instead of thriving and that's been such ah defeating mindset for us, you know and then again so I think for ah for myself in particular.

06:43.13

Wesley Hamilton

I Started to understand that the way that I was living was based off of the pans of others and so my thought process of what I couldn't do was what ah other people told me and when I started to take control and Try. Just try something that someone told me I couldn't do my mindset started to evolve until I can do whatever I won't despite my physical limitation and the good part I me at least? ah. You know the part that I'm even more proud of is that I'm black doing it because I do know that even being black has its own level of discrimination here so to be able to be different in so many ways and no like eyes are stacked against you So ah systemically or you know publicly. However, that looks.

07:21.28

Julie Sowash

Smith.

07:34.14

Wesley Hamilton

Own it and I think that that's what we did. We just owned it because when you got everyone looking at you in different ways you don't know sometimes how you're judge. Well I'm give you something to look at.

07:35.63

Julie Sowash

Um.

07:47.67

Julie Sowash

I Love that right? It's like I'm not going to apologize right? and I think we've gotten in this in this place where we're apologizing for being disabled or we're apologizing for asking for a seat at the table as ah as a white person. It was really hard for me. Because I was like I want to find the right way to support intersectionality without taking over the conversation and also make sure that sometimes when I worked with you know Dei people who didn't want disability at the table because they wanted to work on other identities I had to just like kind of so. Level set myself but also say you know what? like it's just not a white people thing. It's ah it's an everyone thing and as soon as we like get that together. We'll be much stronger. Um, but like trying to also just take kind of that back seat sometimes um I think is really interesting and I.

08:28.36

Wesley Hamilton

Yeah.

08:41.55

Julie Sowash

Have appreciated you and Youette peggish if you don't follow her on Tiktok. She's fantastic, um, just telling a story that is very different um than mine and and really raising up people in in your community. Um, so tell me about tell me about disabled but not really.

08:49.20

Wesley Hamilton

FF.

09:00.63

Julie Sowash

When did that start? What is the the mission um or around that.

09:06.29

Wesley Hamilton

Yeah, absolutely um, disable. But I really was created in 2015 for those that might have heard the bio earlier. But if you missed it ic acquiredre my disability in 2012 and um.

09:22.34

Wesley Hamilton

You know during the time that I acquire my disability. Um, ah one I was a product of my environment I do believe that So my mindset wasn't evolved but on top of that I was overweight like I had.

09:31.18

Julie Sowash

Um.

09:38.15

Wesley Hamilton

Never done physical activity and I joke about on my speeches where I'm like I was big bonded but people used to use that term and it's that comforting level of I don't think that I'm gonna be able to change. Um and that was me. And so when I Ac acquiredre my disability I kind of went into that that image that people see right? like and so and I tell people what the image at least for me was it was I was overweight I was on like 14 different meds.

09:59.20

Julie Sowash

And.

10:09.16

Wesley Hamilton

Um, you know I have a spinal cord injury. So of course they're trying to help me with pain and bow and bladder and all of these different things. So um, but I also wanted to still be the same person I was before my accident so I was in this fight of trying to accept something that I didn't want to accept. As well as still trying to live on who I used to be so everyone else could be comfortable with that and um, it didn't work for me after like within my first year of just constantly trying to not accept and do all these other things that wasn't right for me. Um I ended up getting what most people with sp court. Injuries get as a pressure hoster and it led to 21 hours a day of bear rest for 2 years and so when I say I was over while I was 200 and about two hundred and fifty pounds my max but I'm five five well I'm five four but I'm five five on a good day and so you know.

10:51.95

Julie Sowash

Oh my god.

11:06.93

Wesley Hamilton

Um, at least you can kind of put that height and weight together and I was just definitely not doing good on the healthy side and so acquiring this um and on top of that I'm a single father.

11:18.54

Julie Sowash

So.

11:20.98

Wesley Hamilton

I Try to throw that nugget out kind of in the middle of things because when you hear all the stuff I'm doing. It's like oh and I'm a father with a disability and I raise her on Mom like what? so um I got so cusing my daughter a few months before my accident so literally during this.

11:35.83

Julie Sowash

Um, hello.

11:37.18

Wesley Hamilton

Process I am definitely still trying to be a father still trying to not be weak but I was I was weak and so there was a moment. There was a moment where the doctor told me that I needed to start to eat more protein to be healthier. Um and to kind of fast forward that.

11:43.53

Julie Sowash

Me.

11:56.50

Wesley Hamilton

Um I ended up going to a ah ah community college and took up some a dietician program and I because I didn't understand protein I mean I lived in what they were referenced these days as food deserts so there was nothing healthy around me and I didn't understand what protein was really.

12:08.86

Julie Sowash

Right. Then.

12:16.50

Wesley Hamilton

Um, but I wanted to be healthy for my daughter right? like I just wanted to be active you know and you didn't see parents with disability. So I didn't have that representation to really feed off love either? Um, and so lost so by January Twenty fifteen

12:18.83

Julie Sowash

And.

12:34.39

Wesley Hamilton

I mean I'm doing all these practices that I'm learning through this course I'm eating healthy but I'm in the now because I didn't believe I could ever lose weight I was big bonded right? like um so clothes getting smaller everything. Whatever January Two fifteen I have my last surgery and um, after all this time.

12:42.40

Julie Sowash

Can.

12:53.80

Wesley Hamilton

Um, if people don't know when you're in a wheelchair. The hardest thing is to get weight so you think about trying to lose weight but never know exactly what you're losing or what you're gaining because you have to go through a whole process. Um that that was my life so that now is real.

13:02.79

Julie Sowash

And then.

13:09.27

Wesley Hamilton

Um, but once I got in the hospital bed for my last surgery they got to weigh me in a hospital bed and I was one hundred and thirty pounds and I remember and again like I know pants was falling down stuff. But I'm like this ain't real. Maybe it's the wheelchair right? um.

13:15.46

Julie Sowash

Wow.

13:26.28

Julie Sowash

Um.

13:28.25

Wesley Hamilton

And I remember just thinking to myself like when I got Android I was 24 I had already accepted that I was never gonna be happy like I was a big guy all of this and I it just hit me that I had did something I couldn't even do walking and I was limited in so many.

13:42.42

Julie Sowash

13:47.95

Wesley Hamilton

Ways and so it was it was I was so empowered by that moment I was so empowered by the change that I did when I truly believed I had to do it for me and I did it paralyzed I did it when.

13:57.86

Julie Sowash

Here.

14:03.99

Wesley Hamilton

Doctors and you know therapists really couldn't tell me what to do because there wasn't any running or jargon or walking that could be implemented so it was kind of like eat healthy, but we still can't tell you how to do that? Um, in the best way and I did it on my own I did it by teaching myself and. It was like and I and I had this level of gratitude and confidence within myself that I embraced my disability I didn't look at look down on it anymore and by April or 2015 like I so I had six weeks of helling and during the six weeks in the hospital I mean I was so confident I'm like.

14:28.19

Julie Sowash

5 8

14:38.52

Julie Sowash

And.

14:39.21

Wesley Hamilton

I'm small I ain't never in this small um or start going to the gym like none of my adaptive athlete like that Lifestyle didn't happen until after I left the hospital but I did create disabled but not really there and it was because while I was in a hospital I took a picture because I was really proud I was really proud. And I don't know if people understood why I was so proud but it was so I didn't know I was getting to where I made it right and I just Hashtag I said I'm disabled but not really in the but not really was because I had overcame the limitation that so many people believed that.

15:05.20

Julie Sowash

15:17.69

Julie Sowash

He.

15:18.25

Wesley Hamilton

That's where I was going to stop like no one family friends. Everyone doubted me because they never knew there was something that could be evolved from a limitation. They didn't know like I could you know become in shape and be happy to the point I wasn't dwelling on my situation anymore.

15:30.89

Julie Sowash

15:37.88

Wesley Hamilton

And um I just started to educate myself and I had a nurse tell me like you know you know you should think about you know, philanthropy and I'm like what is that literally and um um I wasn't a reader before that either and I got onto audio books while I was during my six weeks my first book was how to start a nonprofit.

15:45.46

Julie Sowash

And.

15:57.69

Wesley Hamilton

And I learned about it and I started it while I was in the hospital and right before I got out April Twenty Fifteenth I established disabled but not really and the goal was was to instill a limitless mindset that brings courage confidence and competence into the those that we serve and it. It wasn't about the the physical aspect as much as it was the mental I did a mental shift when I was on t 21 hours a day of bed rest and I was determined to change and I changed.

16:25.24

Julie Sowash

And that is incredible I again just seeing the videos seeing some of the competitions that you all have done. You know like the fitness come like incredible I Trust me every big boneed person every husky person as we call them and in my childhood is.

16:33.29

Wesley Hamilton

Um.

16:38.41

Wesley Hamilton

I think.

16:43.58

Julie Sowash

It understands just how hard it is to do when you can go get on Trev Miller you can go do whatever? um and and they give up. We give up so fast and and so that's such an amazing story. Um, and if my math is right? You're about to or just entering the teenage girl years is that what I heard too who I'll pray for you for a while. It's it's the best and the worst all the same time we.

17:01.67

Wesley Hamilton

Ah, how we 14 out here. Yeah I'm here for it just give it to me just gives.

17:14.15

Julie Sowash

We be. We became empty nesters not too long ago and I'm like ah those teenage years I hated them but I love them So good luck with that and Congrats on having a I'm sure a lovely beautiful young lady in your life. Um, is so right? you.

17:19.82

Wesley Hamilton

Yeah, no.

17:30.46

Julie Sowash

You've been through your own kind of journey which I think also is important to understand that that journey for you never ends right? We don't get in shape one day we don't fix our head one day we don't do dei one day. It's ah it's a lifetime's worth of work. You've got the foundation you're you're transforming people's lives in our community people who have disabilities giving them a set of. Confidence and and competence that they probably didn't think was feasible before um, the lot of times probably despite their disabilities and then and then influenced or or exaggerated by them. Um, you know and I've seen now some of the work that you're doing at the organizational level.

18:07.66

Wesley Hamilton

First.

18:09.32

Julie Sowash

To increase inclusion and I noticed that you've worked with a lot of universities alongside names like Google and Deloitte and some you know some pretty big dogs that we'd all like to have on our on our website um, kind of tell me about your work and and where kind of this journey is you as a human.

18:19.37

Wesley Hamilton

Um, doesn't get anything.

18:27.49

Julie Sowash

Um, with a disability has taken you to think about how we need to change at either the University level or and the corporate level or both.

18:36.80

Wesley Hamilton

Well I think that um the work that I've been focused on and the work that I've been doing is truly going into these institutions and and and.

18:51.55

Wesley Hamilton

Raising a level of accountability on the lack of awareness and the lack of effort and trying to become more inclusive or diverse. Um and ah for me it was. My whole journey and all my work is based on personal experiences and when I acquiredre my disability I got into the I was still in a workforce before I got injured and within months I was offered a severance because they really couldn't adapt or just to. My disability and ah and on top of that there was no acceptance and my change after coming back with a group like going back to a group of people that knew you before your accident you know and so that culture was definitely something that started to.

19:32.82

Julie Sowash

And.

19:39.68

Wesley Hamilton

You know, become defeating as well because people are judging you now and instead of embracing you um, and so how do we change that we go in there and we teach that and individuals that are ablebo that is not if but when you Ac acquired disability and that the changes that you're trying to make for me is going to help you long later on in life.

19:41.82

Julie Sowash

Family.

19:59.35

Wesley Hamilton

Go to help your family Grand friends. It's going to help your grandparents. You know, access and acceptance and then we think about intersectionality like the power of that like you can't you know and that started to become more effort within after 2020 when the conversations really started to be able to be brought up. And people started to wanting won't want it uncomfortable conversations. Um, but again like for me, it's just from experience like even being in the Crossfit World. It wasn't very diverse. You know when I was there. Um.

20:21.80

Julie Sowash

Say.

20:34.91

Wesley Hamilton

Fitness anything when it comes to sports and things when it comes with Disability. So How do we make sure that all people can be seen when you think about universities How many of them are Accessible. You know most people with disabilities are already at home. Due to the lack of access. They don't want to do online school some of them want to be social but they don't want to go into a place and not be accepted for who they are and then have to face some type of barrier due to the lack of access sort of due to the lack of knowledge to keep the access updated right? like and so.

20:54.38

Julie Sowash

Tip.

21:10.21

Wesley Hamilton

Elevators always down you know, um there are just so much societal barriers that we we do based on our internalized ablebilism. Um, and so I try to go in and allow people to see that you know and provide examples.

21:20.35

Julie Sowash

And.

21:28.95

Wesley Hamilton

Speaking engagements I do where the only rimp they have is just super long and steep and so by the time I get on stage. The first thing I'm like is that round right? like I'm I'm addressing it as I go um I went to one event and.

21:36.45

Julie Sowash

Me then.

21:43.58

Wesley Hamilton

The route must have never been used because my hands was dirty by the time I got all the way up to the top I'm like hold on yeah I got go I was like hands and the father and it was thousand people in a room and it's like you need to see this like.

21:46.91

Julie Sowash

Oh my god.

21:57.84

Wesley Hamilton

This is my life right now and we we need to be conscious because eventually ah it would be yours and I think that when we can shift a perspective and think that we're we're creating barriers for our community that we won't be a part of.

22:02.39

Julie Sowash

Are.

22:14.32

Wesley Hamilton

Um, we're also creating a world that we wouldn't want to live in and so I think being conscious to teach people from a human aspect what type of world Would you want to live in rather it's because you're physically able now or you're moving like your grandparents later on.

22:24.40

Julie Sowash

This.

22:32.51

Wesley Hamilton

Either way, go what world would you want to live in. You know So that's that's really the work that I'm doing and I think most people are leaning to a inclusive and diverse world. You know that we can constantly learn from people from different cultures racist religions.

22:34.68

Julie Sowash

Right.

22:43.91

Julie Sowash

Please.

22:51.10

Wesley Hamilton

Um, gender identities and ethnicities like everything when it comes to that level of intersectionality in 1 person you know sometimes we've created identities that we can only own one. This is me. No, there are so many things that represent you as a person whether you have a disability or not and you should be able to be free enough to bring all of those out. So.

23:12.81

Julie Sowash

Yeah, a hundred percent I like I think I saw a t-shirt that you have ah I identify myself or I identify me like oh that that's a good one. That's it I like I like that on a lot of pride beyond ah a future episode. Um, so.

23:16.57

Wesley Hamilton

Yeah I identify myself? yeah.

23:28.65

Julie Sowash

Again I I love kind of the different perspective and the different um kind of invitation that you get than than I do which is um, you are forced people to think about things in a different way I force people to think about mental Health in a different way.

23:44.60

Wesley Hamilton

Now.

23:47.39

Julie Sowash

Ah, mental illness cognitive processing disorder you force them to think about. Not only do I need the ramp this very basic thing that should help anyone get up but I also need you to see me as. A black man a dad a person with a disability a worker an employee ah business owner all the things that you are and you can speak to that I think in a way that people are receptive to um because.

24:12.93

Wesley Hamilton

Um, yeah.

24:17.37

Julie Sowash

So often we just haven't had engagements with people with different types of disabilities in our life and it humanizes you know when we can You can tell your story. Um, so.

24:30.26

Julie Sowash

What are why I want to ask you I'm gonna go to my 2 questions I actually have 3 questions left I'm gonna go to my 2 questions that I like to wrap up every interview with because you've been so gracious with your time and everybody wants to know I was late for this interview that I've been waiting for for so long. So yeah.

24:42.39

Wesley Hamilton

24:47.24

Julie Sowash

Wes has been very gracious with this time. Um, so I always ask 2 questions as I wrap up the show is what would you tell a hiring leader a decision maker that would change their minds. About the talent value that black disabled people can bring to their organization.

25:06.92

Wesley Hamilton

Um I think well first we look at as if we already know the talent that black individuals will brings our organization just know that disability as a unique layer to that. Um, So if you're already diverse you just need to expand it I mean that's the easiest way. Um, but if you're just trying to become diverse all the way around. Um, understanding that individuals that are black and disabled. Um that identify with maybe black first. Um, represent a community and a culture of people that if you have products and services that are for service to humanity in a sense then you want to be able to bring representation that allows not only. You know people to feel welcomed in in your space or to your community but also for you to be aware of some of the issues and things that you can maybe help you know create solutions for I Think that's why we expand.

26:14.15

Julie Sowash

Me.

26:19.61

Wesley Hamilton

And become diverse because it it allows us to become aware of what's happening in the world. We are sometimes always in our own box and so when we can learn from other people experiences it doesn't just bring them value. It actually brings you value and.

26:34.98

Julie Sowash

Exactly.

26:38.43

Wesley Hamilton

So again, the thing is is do you want to grow because becoming more diverse will help you with so much growth. Um, and it will also help you probably become a better human being.

26:50.62

Julie Sowash

100% okay so outside of queer eye. What is 1 action or event that someone else has done for you that changed your life as a person with a disability.

27:02.91

Wesley Hamilton

Oh you know I've had a lot of amazing things happen to me in life after I believed I took ownership and accepted who I am as just the individual I will say that. And there's been milestones that I'm so proud of some that I keep forgetting but um, in 2021 I was um, acknowledged as a Craig H Nelson visionary

27:33.38

Julie Sowash

Wow.

27:35.76

Wesley Hamilton

And um it it was based on my service to the spinal cord injury community and it kind of would a $1000000 grant um that was.

27:55.38

Wesley Hamilton

Like that was something that I'm still speechless for because all I do is breath service and that's all I care about I changed my life and I just wanted to help others see the same light and life that I see today and someone seeing that. And wanted to help me continue to do that and I think that that you know it wasn't It wasn't about me. It was about all the people that I chose to serve and to be able to be seen as a visionary within the community that I represent. Um just was just. Deal A big deal for me is a proud mousestone that I think I would take forever. Um, you know with like humbleness because it's something now I can teach other people to aspire to that. As long as you do the work. You never know who's seat who's watching just do the work.

28:52.44

Julie Sowash

No, we do the work right? Just do the work. The the recognition comes um thank you so much. This has been incredible. My last question because I am a travel junkie. Um, where is your favorite place that you have traveled.

29:02.97

Wesley Hamilton

29:09.77

Julie Sowash

Um America or otherwise yes, please oh yeah.

29:13.39

Wesley Hamilton

Oh can I can I give you two can I do America and otherwise right like just for people now I didn't even travel before my injury. So like I just now just consider myself a world traveler. Um.

29:29.22

Wesley Hamilton

In America Oregon Oregon was one of the most breathtaking, beautiful calm places that I've ever been and I went in the fall as well. So I was just amazing. Um, international.

29:31.44

Julie Sowash

Okay.

29:40.49

Julie Sowash

Oh nice.

29:48.85

Wesley Hamilton

I have this love between the U K and Canada I love I love the beauty in Canada the kindness but u k is so much history that I'm just like a bookworm to.

29:53.90

Julie Sowash

Really okay.

30:08.17

Wesley Hamilton

Like every corner you turn you you find something new and that's exciting.

30:12.32

Julie Sowash

Yeah, and so I love about Europe is it's so old. There's just something to learn well if you ever want to come to Portugal. Ah, we will happily give you the tour set you up in a condo. Whatever you want. We'll be there. Um, ah no I love it.

30:25.77

Wesley Hamilton

Um, I'm here for it I'm coming.

30:29.14

Julie Sowash

Please do? Um, thank you so much for joining us I So appreciate you coming on this episode tell everyone where to find you how to donate to or become a part of um, all of the work that you're doing.

30:42.11

Wesley Hamilton

Absolutely I always start off you know, disabled, but not really um, is just how it sounds um, disabled but not really.org is where you can learn more about our mission. Our programs donate volunteer and if you just want to know me personally I am Wes. Hamilton across all social media is a good way to find me or you could just Google me you know, like that's easy too. That's the easy.

31:02.65

Julie Sowash

Awesome! All right? you can? Okay, yes you can call me I know where to find him I'm I know all the socials. So.

31:12.13

Wesley Hamilton

But.

31:15.97

Julie Sowash

Um, thank you all for joining us for another fantastic episode. Thank you s for joining us I am so pleased to meet you and find you to be as nice and wonderful as I had hoped you would be um so until next time um, keep changing minds and changing lives.

31:28.71

Wesley Hamilton

Thank you.