Transcript
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How do you tread the line between playing a selfish character and being a selfish player? How would you coach someone to play a male character? And can your character overcome their flaws?
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And accomplish something worth telling a story about? Hello friends welcome to characters without stories at TTRPG podcast about the roads not yet traveled. I'm star. This episode I'm joined by Natalie Marley, a therapist who primarily works with children under the age of 10. Teaching social communication, self help and coping skills. Natalie is actually a player in my current d&d campaign and is actually one of the first players I've had the pleasure of DMing for. So Natalie, I'll give you a chance to talk about anything you want to share at the end. But do you want to tell listeners a little bit about yourself?
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Yeah, um, you know, I, I work with kids, as you said, like to say my hobby is collecting hobbies. Lately, my interest has been in wood carving. So that's been really fun.
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Yeah, I've seen your spoon in progress. Very cool. So Natalie, who are you bringing to the table today?
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I'm bringing Dewey Aberforth, a water genesi druid.
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And this is a character for d&d5e, correct?
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That's correct.
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Yes.
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So tell me, what does Dewey look like?
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You know, as a water genasi he has blue skin, a little bit darker blue hair, lighter colored eyes, kind of like a goldish color to kind of contrast? Yeah, and he kind of is like a worn swashbucklers kind of outfit.
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Is he a pirate?
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He's not a pirate. He would like people to think he is.
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Well, we're gonna get into that. But he is a druid.
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He is yes.
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What kind of druid it is he? I don't know what level you've built him at because you don't use a circle until what like level two or three?
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Yeah, he's a level two. And I believe he it's the one with the moon.
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Oh, Moon? I think it's just Circle of the moon druid.
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Yeah. Circle of the Moon.
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The one that with all the good wild shape abilities?
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Yeah, I figured, you know, water is very connected to the moon, in the elemental sphere. And he is very much elemental. So I thought that would be a good fit for him.
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And how old is Dewey?
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I would say he's in his mid 30s.
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And is he straight? Is he cis?
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He's cis and hadn't really thought about his sexuality, but I would say he is bisexual.
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And does do we have a voice?
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Oh. I haven't really. I played him in like a hour long session with coworkers and I hadn't really thought of a voice for him. I'm not the best at voices.
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I am also not the best at voices.
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No, you're you do good voices.
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I do I do valley girl and valley boy. And that's about where it ends. You mentioned that you only got to play Dewey for one hour. What happens?
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So I was playing with co workers. And the other two women that I was playing with had not played before. And my other co worker was the DM.
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So we were the only two that had experience. So it was a very short session. It was maybe only an hour and a half long. So it didn't get to get into developing characters so much.
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It was really just we meet and then we had combat and then it was the end of the session.
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Did your co workers say never again?
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I think they enjoyed themselves? You know, they didn't need to create a character go too deep into the logistics of combat and things.
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But I think they enjoyed it as a first foray into into d&d.
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Do you think you'll get to play Dewey again?
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I hope so. I would like to develop his character a little bit more. I think For me, when I create characters, I almost always do a random generator.
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Hmm. Okay.
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So I just assign a number to the race and class and everything and then just roll, and then whatever I come up with. And then I go from there to create the character and decide, okay, how does this all come together?
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I think you're the first person I've interviewed that actually uses rolling tables to create characters. And I love that. Did you do that for Dewey?
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I did. And he just kind of came out of what I rolled. So you know, I rolled for genasi, and druid. And then I looked up pictures, I just, you know, Googled water genasi druid into Google and found an image. And then from there, I just thought of like, Who is this person? What are their values? And for Dewey, I wanted to pick a personality that contrasted with mine, because a lot of the time the characters that I've created in the past have eventually morphed into almost self inserts.
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Yeah, that's the thing that comes up a lot.
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Yeah, yeah. And I feel like, part of the fun of d&d is being someone different, exploring their personality and like being someone else, and making different decisions to what you normally would.
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Yeah, I struggle with that myself, especially when it comes to making moral choices.
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I, for this reason, have never been able to play an evil character. I've actually never really wanted to do that. But I can imagine that would be very difficult. Is that something that you struggle with too?
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I do? Yeah. Cuz I think, oh, that's gonna really hurt that person's feelings, or it's gonna really inconvenience my party. And yeah, I have the foresight. To know that, like, this is gonna be a mistake. And it's really hard to make that decision.
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Yeah, definitely. So what about Dewey is challenging for you?
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He is very selfish. He's very self aggrandizing. The he's all about him and furthering his interests, and making sure that he comes out looking good. In the end, he is very attractive physically. And he has the folk hero background. And I have the feeling that he doesn't really deserve the folk hero respect that he has. You know, he tends to take credit for other people's accomplishments. So he just is a bit of an unlikable character, maybe likeable and charming on the surface, but not on the deeper level, I feel like that'd be really difficult character to play.
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Yeah, it's a narrow line to walk, I think, because as a player, like on a meta level, you don't want to make choices that are going to destroy party cohesion, like you want to keep that character on the adventure with these particular people. So you can't really take it too far. But you also don't want to just go along with everybody and go along with everything and make choices that as a player makes sense, when that doesn't make sense for your character is like you have to really tread that line.
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Yeah, it definitely is difficult to be a part of a group and not be a good character,
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Or to be selfish as part of a group. And often in d&d, you know, we're playing heroes, that there should be some amount of motivation to make the world a better place, or at least that's the kind of story that I like to tell. And I think that's pretty common. So it's always a struggle to inhabit somebody who is that self interested in that kind of heroic story?
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Yeah, exactly. I feel like he would need to have something significant happened during the course of the campaign that forces him to grow as a person and do things for other people, or, you know, give credit where credit's due rather than railroading everybody.
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I usually ask what a character's flaws are. Honestly, this is something I struggle with is coming up with good flaws for our characters is not making a character that's too good or too, too perfect.
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usually ask people, What are the characters flaws? Because that's not something that they usually just bring up. However, for Dewey, the flaws are really the lede. So what is he good at?
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What are do you strengths or moral strengths?
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I think he would be the kind of person you would want in a situation where we need to convince somebody of something that we are something that we're not to get, you know, like, I have an idea of him being in ball rooms situation, or like a big like fancy party.
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He seems like the kind of person that would be able to get the party in past the bouncers so that we can do whatever the our mission is. Yeah, he's a smooth talker, silver tongue,
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But a druid. He has to have like a certain amount of wisdom and connection to nature to that doesn't strike me as the usual kind of smooth talking usually think of that being the bard or even the rogue.
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Sure. Yeah, I think maybe my random role is maybe not necessarily where he's going to continue to go. Because he is only level two. So he might multiclass into Bard or something like that, where I think his background is druid.
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Maybe it comes from a family of Druids.
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Did you also randomly roll the stats?
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It's been a while since I did this one. And I think I went with the druid class and then picked stats that went with druid. So why the name Dewey. So I wanted him to have a water related name. So I just Googled a list of water related names. And the first one that jumped out at me was Aberforth because of the Harry Potter connection.
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What is the Harry Potter connection?
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So Dumbledore, his brother is named Abrerforth, you know, he plays like a minor role in in this series. But he's a very interesting character.
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But that jumped out at me because I was like, Oh, Aberforth I didn't know that was water related, but apparently has something to do with rivers.
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But yeah, I was confused.
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The Harry Potter and the water.
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I was like, I don't know how this relates.
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Yeah, and then Dewey just, it just sounds cute.
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It is pretty cute. Let's talk about this background. I love that he is a folk hero, but not really. How did he get the notoriety and the fame to be a folk hero without actually doing any of the work?
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It was an accident. He was in the right place at the right time. And people came across him, you know, saving somebody from something. And he just kind of walked in at the right time. And I feel like just like caught somebody who fell or something like that. And everyone was like, You're a hero. It's amazing. He was like, yeah, yeah. So where did he grow up?
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I'm not too familiar with the geography of d&d places too well, but I imagine he grew up in like a coastal area, maybe in the water plane. Or maybe his mother father was a sailor, and we came across a water Genie, or something like that on their travels and fell in love
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in this case, I mean, because genasi are either Genie, Marid, Efreeti, etc. And human or to genasi. So in this case, you're saying, as a human and a Marid?
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Maybe? Or maybe it was it, there's just a community of genasi that live in this area.
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So this area that he lives in, and I'm with you I don't, I don't know, geography.
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I couldn't even tell you the difference between Faerun and the Forgotten Realms. I haven't played a lot of games that are like strictly modules or strictly out of the role books.
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And so I'm like, I have no idea.
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I can tell you about the Underdark and that's about it.
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So I with you there. And it's nice to also have a character who you can say, give me a coastal town, I'll plunk them down in it. But when you think about where he grew up, are you thinking big city? Or are you thinking tiny village?
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I would say like a smaller port city.
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So would you say that before this accidental heroism happened? Was he known?
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Yeah, he grew up in a family that was more affluent, maybe one of the fishing company owners, and he's the firstborn son, he was treated like the golden child has a very high opinion of himself that maybe he doesn't deserve. And so yeah, he's very competent in themselves, because of how he was treated in this family. And so when this event happened, where he becomes a hero, he just kind of is like, yeah, that's who I am. I'm a hero. Everyone thinks I'm amazing. And I am amazing. I think if he were to leave his town, and his community, he would quickly realize that there's a lot more to being a hero.
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Yeah. That brings up an interesting question for a character who is selfish at heart. Why does he want to be a hero? Is it because he wants the acclaim? Is it because he is kind of delusional, like he thinks he's better than he is?
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Yeah, I think he really enjoys people fawning over him and treating him well.
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You know, the advantages he has in life, he really enjoys them.
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Yeah, I think that's why he wants to be a hero. Or he thinks like, oh, yeah, I need to go out and like, bring a me this wonderful person to the rest of the world.
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Everyone deserves to have a Dewey in their lives. Yeah. So this, this event happens, he decides he wants more of that good good acclaim? What makes him set out? Does he just immediately go, hey, I want to continue being a hero, I'm gonna go out and make that happen, or does something else precipitate him starting his career as an adventurer?
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That's a good question. How does he I think he learns of some kind of challenge in, you know, a faraway place that he thinks, oh, like, that's a good way for me to gain some more acclaim, I'm going to be the one to save the princess or find the lost treasure or whatever it is that he's setting out to do. He thinks like, yeah, of course, I'm the one who's gonna be the hero of this situation, you know. So I think that's why he sets out to be an adventurer.
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Do you want Dewey to kind of face that comeuppance when maybe he's not as skilled as he thinks he is?
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I think he needs to learn that. Yeah. I think his key character development is going to be that he needs other people that he can't just be the single shining light in the world.
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Is that something that you ever struggled with? Do you find any of yourself in these questions? It sounds like you're trying to play kind of against yourself. But do you feel that that's like resonating with you personally?
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I think this person Dewey is someone who was in my life for a while and maybe this is my way of like healing that part of my life, a little bit of, you know, this person to had a big impact on my life and having them face those consequences, I think is what the wish fulfillment is with Dewey.
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Yeah, I can see that. Is there somebody in Dewey's life that maybe they're not so selfish with that is important enough to them for them to bring out their better nature?
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Hmm. I think that's gonna be somebody that is part of his party, not necessarily like enemies to lovers kind of story, but
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Hey there's nothing wrong with that.
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More of like, he sees somebody in his party being selfless. And at first he dismisses them. and maybe takes advantage of their kindness. But eventually, that like cognitive dissonance of being around that person and eventually becoming caring towards them, and then wanting to make them like him, almost our gain their respect, right? Maybe this person sees through his charm, and he just cannot charm this person. And he just needs their approval, and it just becomes this like obsession, and then to finally get that he has to fundamentally change.
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Yeah, it'd be great to have that party dynamic. It sounds like what you need for Dewey to accomplish that arc is kind of a very specific group of very specific party and a very specific story, you need to DM who's going to work with you to make this arc happen. Are you looking for a specific kind of campaign for Dewey?
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I think maybe the way he gets into the party is he again, kind of stumbles into it, where they need him for something. And they have the same, like, aligned objective for the time being, and he thinks, Okay, I'm just gonna be around these people just to serve the end that I'm trying to achieve. And then I'll ditch them. But then he just never is able to do that. Can because he needs other people. Yeah, he can't just be by himself.
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Yeah, I think d&d, being a cooperative game, that's often one of the things that comes up one of the lessons I guess, a lot of my guests have talked about their characters wanting to find a family and the adventuring party, kind of being in that family. And I think to like what you're talking about wanting to learn that you can't go it alone. d&d is a game that's built around a group of people going somewhere, doing things, not usually a solo game.
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My headcanon about d&d is, or like any story, is, there's probably a lot of people that tried to do something that's worthy of being told in a story. But because they weren't able to overcome their flaws, or grow, they weren't able to accomplish anything worth telling a story about. And so the stories that get told are the ones where all those things come together, where everyone does grow and become, you know, a force to be reckoned with and do things that are impressive and exciting.
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Yeah, I mean, those are more compelling stories. I think we're where characters grow and change as the story progresses.
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It's incredibly important.
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Yeah. So I think if Dewey wasn't the type of person who could change, then he wouldn't be able to have a story.
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You have to set up the right circumstances to enable that change to happen.
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Exactly.
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Does Dewey have any quirks?
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He is the kind of person who would find a way to direct every conversation into a story about something amazing he did.
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I guess if he's charming enough that could fly. We've talked about the challenges of playing a character who has a different moral compass than yourself. Also, the challenge of playing a male character as a woman, is that something that you have done before? Is that something that you want to explore for the first time with doing?
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Yeah, I would I exclusively have only made female characters, just because women tend to be underrepresented in fantasy or sci fi culture. And so I feel like if I choose to play a male character, I'm playing into the patriarchy, I guess. Yeah, that, you know, an adventure has to be a strong male character. But I also think it would be an interesting challenge to play a male character. What do you think would be challenging about it? I think it would require me thinking about the more masculine side of my personality, maybe or taking on the affectations of someone who is socialized as male, would be interesting. And also, you know, playing someone with a personality that's just not like mine.
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I was talking to my husband a little while back. And we were talking about how to coach somebody to play a different gender. And he said, Well, how would you coach somebody to be a man? And I said, enter every room, like you are completely allowed to take up as much space as you want to take that you can take as much space in conversation as you want to take that nobody's going to challenge you on it.
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Yeah
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To act like you are confident in your skills, perhaps more than is warranted.
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And I don't mean this to say that all men are like this. But I was like, if I was trying to convince somebody how to be really Uber male, like, I think those would be the things that I would tell them is like, take up space. So I'm kind of curious for you, what do you think needs to change? How would you coach yourself to play a male character?
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I think that's a good description you came up with of, like, yeah, I have the right to be here. I can say what I want, when I think of it without the filter of how am I going to be perceived? Or am I going to attract ire or antagonism from others, and not really caring about that? I think that would be a challenge for me, as I just tend not to take up space. I think that's something that has helped me being in d&d campaigns is that to help the story, move forward, you have to contribute to the conversation. And I think that's helped me be more outgoing. In conversation, especially in the campaign we've been playing. I would say, I've gotten a lot more comfortable, like joking around and saying, like silly one liners, or like contributing to things or like one upping things. That's something that I never have done really before.
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And it's been really helpful.
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That is a very high compliment. How long were you playing d&d before our campaign started, and just for some context, we've been playing this game for about a year and a half now.
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I had played for maybe two years before that. In smaller groups. It wasn't so much of an issue. But in some campaigns, there were maybe like nine people all playing and there was just no way to get a word in, you know?
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Oh, my goodness. Yeah. I can't even imagine.
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It was way too many people.
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Yeah, I would say like, oh, how do you roleplay but then also, how do you combat? God, it would take hours. Ooh. When I first started playing d&d, I was not particularly outgoing. I felt pretty reserved, and I was fairly quiet. And by the end of my first campaign, I was like, the most talkative person in the party. So I always end up falling into a kind of party face roles, because I like to talk to NPCs. So why are you excited to play Dewey eventually?
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Yeah, I think he just poses an interesting challenge. And having been able to talk about him with you and flesh out his character a little bit more, I think, playing out his story of personal growth and transformation would be a really fun thing to play with others.
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Dewey, I know you like an awful lot about yourself. But what do you like most about yourself?
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I mean, what's not to like? It's so hard to choose. I have so many wonderful qualities. There's my charming disposition, my wonderful aquiline nose, my muscular physique. I mean, how could I even choose a favorite characteristic? They're just all so great.
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I love the aquiline nose.
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That's hilarious. That's what he's most proud of, something he didn't have to earn at all. I mean, even the muscular physique probably needed some work.
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Yeah.
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Well, I love that. Thank you so much, Natalie, for sharing Dewey with me and with my listeners, I really appreciate you coming on the show. And it's so much fun to talk to one of my party friends on the podcast.
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Thank you so much for having me.
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Of course, if you listen to episode one, Andrew is also in my game. So I've had two of my players I did hear that one that was fun. Is there anything that you want to tell people? Do you want to direct people to any social media presence or anything like that?
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Um, no, I'm kind of a private person. And I don't have much of an online presence at all.
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That's legit, you're probably more well adjusted than most. For that reason. You can find me on Tik Tok at Starmamac, that's S T A R M A M A C. You can also listen on YouTube just search for characters without stories, or follow the link in the description. I have a nearly 1000 downloads what may not seem like a lot to some means an awful lot to me. I'm immensely grateful to you, my listeners for spreading the word about the podcast. Please help me get to 1000 by sharing the podcast with friends and on social media. I am currently accepting submissions, particularly for non d&d characters. So if you'd like to share your character, you can go to the submission form at characters without stories.com. Thanks for listening, and may all your characters find their stories
