#139 Sexual Shame, AI-Driven Intimacy, and Breaking Free from Gender Norms: A Sexologist’s Perspective

0 (0s): Speaking about sex robots? Yes. Do you think that it is going to be basically an escape pod for men? And finally, I 1 (9s): Saw prices. I saw the, you can buy the female robot, and of course looks like Bobby, because I thought we dismantled her last year, but here she is. 0 (15s): So what would you say to someone that's on a date and they're like, what's your body count? 1 (20s): Fuck off. You still don't have unified definitions of what sex is. There are a lot of people who have anal sex because they wanna call themselves virgins when they get married. 0 (29s): You were talking about how you had this nude photo on Instagram. It wasn't showing anything, but you can clearly tell that you were nude. Yeah. And that you were a teenage son came to you and said, Hey, all my friend saw this. 1 (37s): My son has seen this picture. Right. And he's never brought it up until his friends brought it to him. 0 (43s): People will automatically conflate being in a monogamous, long-term relationship as healthy and the standard. But I have talked to so many people that are in that, and they either have never had an orgasm because they're not comfortable even having that conversation of what they like. But people 1 (56s): Who sext more couples who sext more actually have better and more sex, when men are specifically feeling shameful about their body, they are more likely to be hostile or violent towards the women in their life. 0 (1m 13s): Kaamna, thank you so much for being here. I enjoyed your speech so much here at the conference. Do you wanna, I guess, give yourself a brief intro to the listeners about who you are, what you do, and why you're at the conference? 1 (1m 25s): Sure. Thank you for having me. So I talk about sex a lot and all day long. I'm, I'm A Sexologist. I'm a researcher. I'm, I'm a coach. And I study what I think of as the gamut of sexuality. So a lot of my work is focused on Sexual Shame, which is of course, our past structures where it all, you know, socioeconomic, political, psychological trends that bring us to where we are. And then I also study the future of intimacy. So sex and ai, vr, all that kind of stuff. And I think that right now, my work is bringing me to connect those dots for people. 0 (2m 1s): Okay. So shame element is massive. Sure. I think we hold onto that in so many areas of our life. But the thing that is glaring and then even expected from us is when it comes to sexuality, if you don't have shame around it, then there's something wrong with you. 1 (2m 16s): That's, that's very true. And I started studying shame formally because it was always in the room when we talked about sex and at every level, at an individual level, at a relational level, even at a business level. And we, when we talk about sex tech, and, you know, there's a whole, there's a whole table of products and services down there, but most of those founders will tell you that it's been really hard to get funding because of vice clauses and things like that. That's all part of shame, right? That's all part of our culture saying, this is not right. This is not good. You gotta do it differently. And I think that I'm heartened to see that people are breaking those molds. We're having conversations that we didn't have before. I think women are leading the charge because for the longest time, they've been the ones that have been the recipients, a lot of their Sexual Shame. 1 (2m 58s): But I think that we cannot leave and we should not leave the men behind. And there's much dialogue to be had. A lot of the people I coach are men for that very reason, because maybe I fall between this therapist and and friend because I'm a coach. But a lot of the guys that come to me will say, I didn't know where to go and I don't know where to go. And I think that's something that we need to solve. 0 (3m 19s): What do you notice as far as the differences of how that shame is internalized or expressed between men and women? 1 (3m 27s): I think the one thing we've done is given women the permission to seek help. Right? Mm. Because we are the weaker sex, you know, whatever, whatever it is, I'll take it, right? Because you're allowed to lean on your friends, you're allowed to go to the doctor, et cetera. We don't, we don't allow men that. So physicians will say, oh yeah, men come to me just before they, you know, just after they've had a heart attack just before they're about to drop dead. And it's the same thing in a Sexual Shame context. So when we create these spaces for them to come to, then you start hearing things like, nobody's ever asked me these questions. I've never had these conversations before. Men are not allowed to be intimate. Yes. Boys are not allowed to be intimate. We hear that a lot. I heard, I had one of my interviewees for the research that I do say to me, you know, I had sex way before I was emotionally ready for it, simply because it's the only intimacy boys are allowed. 0 (4m 15s): Mm. 1 (4m 15s): So it's, it's quite profound. 0 (4m 17s): Yeah. And what, from my reading is sex is almost more important to the man because it is such a love. It's like, it's a, it's proof of the love, or it's the proof of the connection. And without it, there, there's all of this lingering uncertainty. So when women tend to weaponize sex, that's really damaging to men. So like, they'll hold it like a carrot, or they'll take it away if like, they're not being a good boy. And that how bad that is for the dynamic. 1 (4m 42s): Yeah, that's true. But I also think that for boys, there's a promo performative element. It's kind of like, oh, you know, you're not, man, you're not a man if you haven't had a lot of sex, if you hadn't had a, haven't had a lot of notches in your belt. And I think we see that toxic culture in colleges a lot where men are just programmed. They're not, they don't buy into it necessarily, but they're just programmed to just have a lot of sex with a lot of different partners. 0 (5m 5s): Do you see a lot of shame when it comes to men that I guess, need something that's a different version of intimacy? Like they don't know how to ask their partners for that? 1 (5m 14s): I don't think they know how to ask anybody for that. And I'll give you another example. An Indian man that I, he's not a teenager. He's, I think he was in his fifties that I interviewed, said to me, you know, I don't believe in monogamy, but it's not masculine. It's not manly for a man to be okay with sharing his partner. So I'm in a monogamous relationship and I cheat a lot, right? So it's kind of like any deviation from that norm is frowned upon and whatever that norm is, right? I mean, typically it's, you know, it's monogamous within the context of a marriage, heterosexual, et cetera. So any deviation out of those boxes gets us, you know, get us, gets us admonished and gets us to feel like we're bad people. 0 (5m 55s): So there's a lot of conversation when, when it comes to shaming women, especially when it comes to sexuality or what we would call promiscuity. Sure. And they say that that shame is actually really productive, and it's there for a reason. So one example would be if you have all of these women that are now engaging in excessive sexual behavior, they raise the, they raise the floor. And then you have all of these other women that may not wanna participate in hookup culture, or might not wanna participate in something that they would consider fast. But because the culture is shifting in such a way that that's the new expectation, that they're kind of, they're being left behind. So it's there to protect, protect the floor, if you will. 1 (6m 30s): I think that's a bunch of bullshit, to be perfectly honest. To be, to be really fair, first of all, I think all of those things are so arbitrary. The word promiscuous, the word fast, the, you know, how many, how many partners is, right? There's no, there's no hard and fast rouge, every culture will tell you different. And every, every human being that is on a journey will tell you something different. And I think whenever we put these boxes around is it's to shame someone for being too much or too little, and to put us all put, put us all down to this lowest common denominator. I don't, I don't think sex should be externally referenced at all. I think it's extremely private and extremely personal. Not necessarily private, but I think it's personal and it's individualized and it's unique and you should honor it as such. 0 (7m 12s): So what would you say to someone that's on a date and they're like, what's your body count? Fuck 1 (7m 16s): Off. None, none of your business. I mean, it was, you know, it was the point, and I've mentioned it a few times, the idea of sexual maturity. First of all, somebody that asked me that question immediately, I know that there's either a competitive element here or there's a judgmental element. And I think it's unnecessary. However, without being flippant about it, I think the question you're trying to get to, or they're trying to get to, or should be trying to get to is what are your sexual experiences? What do you know what you like? Do you know what you don't like? Maybe the first state is the right time for it. Maybe it's not. But I would much rather have a more qualitative discussion about body count, not about the number, if that makes sense. 0 (7m 55s): Right? Like the wrong question is being asked. 1 (7m 57s): Absolutely. Absolutely. What have you learned, 0 (7m 60s): Right? 'cause there's not much you're gaining from that answer. No, it's terrible. And then it's just practicing this retroactive jealousy and then 1 (8m 6s): Absolute. And then there's, there's no right. I mean, there's no winning answer, right? Because depending on who's sitting across from you, they're gonna be judging you anyway. Right? Either you've had too few or too little, right. That sort of thing. 0 (8m 15s): And does it, is there anything that that tells you from like a professional standpoint? Like does a number tell you anything about that person conclusively? 1 (8m 22s): I mean, I, like I said, I think that it shows a lack of, of, of sexual maturity, emotional maturity. I think that's a person that is still very bought into collective cultures are, are common mindsets around this stuff. Not someone that's willing to do something differently and think differently. I also wanna point out that we still don't have unified definitions of what sex is. Mm. Right. So research will still show that, yes, most of us will say it's penile vaginal, but there are a lot of people who think oral sex is sex. There are a lot of people who have anal sex because they wanna call themselves virgins when they get married. So, I mean, would you push back and be like, oh, what do you mean by sex? What are we actually talking about here? Right. Emotional infidelity. Is that sex? 1 (9m 2s): So it's a difficult question. 0 (9m 4s): Yeah. There you go. Just, just throw 'em for a loop it back. 1 (9m 7s): Do it back. I'm, I'm a, I'm a blast date. You can imagine. 0 (9m 13s): Oh, I'm sure you're doing a good job at selecting though, too. Like narrowing. Absolutely. So you're not getting, like these people are asking this question. Absolutely. So shame is a really interesting thing because when I think about conscious sexuality and what that looks like, it's not to be in a specific container. It's not just for marriage. Like, it's, it's have you uncoupled your relationship with shame and sexuality? And to me, that's conscious sexuality. So can you have sex where you and your partner are doing it together? You are concerned about their pleasure, they're concerned about your pleasure. You're not worried about like, if my belly looks weird in this position, or my face looks weird. It's like, is this bad? Right? So all of that is stripped away either entirely, or you're doing the work to get most of it abolished. 0 (9m 58s): And people will automatically, automatically conflate being in a monogamous, long-term relationship as healthy and the standard. But I have talked to so many people that are in that, and they either have never had an orgasm because they're not comfortable even having that conversation of what they like. They haven't been able to touch themselves, look at themselves, how many women have never looked at themselves. Yes. Yes. 'cause it's dirty and it's, and it's wrong. And to me, there's just, everyone has a lot of work to do when it comes to the shame element. And what I learned, what book was this? It was talking about the origin of the, the very first Latin word for pussy. And it was the same as shame, right? Right. Because the man is out and he's exposed. So that's proud pride, something that to behold. 0 (10m 41s): But the woman's is tucked away, so it must be dirty and wrong. So, shame, shame, shame. So from like basically the first time that we started speaking, we have instilled this in every single layer spec specifically for women, but men now too. 1 (10m 53s): Yeah. I mean, there, there were so many things I wanted to just, you know, respond to as you were talking. So first of all, what strikes me so hard is, you know, you, you're in North Carolina. I grew up in India, and the, the experiences are the same, right? I know exactly what you said. So many couples that the woman does an orgasm, they're ashamed to talk about the talk about it. They don't know what their bodies look like, all of that kind of stuff. And at the same time, when you look at how we all got here, all these different cultures, I don't entirely know yet. So I know that in India, we like to blame everything on the British, right? They colonized us for 200 years. They're like, we're like, it's Victorian morality, but I don't think so. And India remembers the culture that gave us the Kaamna Sutra. And the Kaamna Sutra is really interesting because all these fantastical sex positions and all this real education around pleasure is meant to be in the context of a partnered relationship. 1 (11m 44s): So the Kaamna Sutra is not about go out and fuck everybody. And, and who cares? I don't care if you do. But the idea that you have to work at sex, you have to work to make sex interesting and innovated in a long-term relationship is thousands of years old. And yet we think that we're gonna spend, you know, 90% of our time working 10% of our time on our spiritual development and leave like, well, there's nothing 90%, there's nothing left for our intimate relationships. Of course, we're gonna be lonely, of course we're gonna be in an intimacy crisis. 0 (12m 18s): So when it comes to working on that relationship with, with shame and just sexual exploration, do you find it easier for people to work, work with that by themselves initially with their partnered couple or both? 1 (12m 33s): I, I think I always say sexuality is an inside job. So personally, I work with individuals. Okay. Because I think that you get in, in a partnered relationship, you may, you may get lost. And I think this work has to be done individually. And that's where the spirituality piece comes through. From there, you can, you know, you can spring dive into any, any sort of permutation and combination that you want. But I think the work has to be individual. 0 (12m 59s): So where does that, like where does that start? How do you start? 1 (13m 2s): Yeah. So it's interesting, right? So I mean, if, as you said in my talk earlier, you know, I talk about sex shame and spirituality. And to me, the, one of the most powerful ways to overcome shame is to adopt this spiritual mindset. And we have to be very clear that spirituality is different from religion, especially in the context of sexuality. Can 0 (13m 21s): You decipher the difference with me? 1 (13m 22s): Yeah. So there's, there's a framework that I like by a couple of, of, of researchers, and I'm happy to give you their name so you can reference the article even. But it's essentially, you know, in religion is, is sort of community driven, right? It's, it's upheld by the community, it's upheld by your social structures. Whereas spirituality is much more individual. It is individual, it is unique, it is personalized, personalized to you, religion is given by scriptures, right? There is the, there's the bta, there is the bible, there is the Quran, so on and so forth. Whereas spirituality is, is intuitive. It sort of comes from within. It's those, it's those voices. It's those messages that you get from your relationship with the universe. 1 (14m 4s): And then the third piece, which is a very important piece, and all spiritual, all spiritual philosophies around the world have this, is this idea of unification and oneness. So religion will tell you that there's a divide. There's god and devil, there's faith and or, or vice and virtue, there's, there's sin. And I don't know what's the opposite of sin? Not, not sin, sex, sainthood, whatever it is, right? And the whole point of spirituality is that there is no division. I mean, if you, if you really go into quantum learning, this is, you know, we're all made up of energetic particles, right? The, the, the difference, what is matter and what is particle is, is, is, is just, it's just an illusion. 1 (14m 46s): So those are the three sort of tenets that I work with. So how does that apply into sexuality content? It's like, all right, listen, you have a right to have a sexuality that is spiritual in that it is unique and individual to you. It is intuitive and driven by your, your own system, your own body, your own dialogue with the universe. And you are allowed to lean into oneness instead of division. Whether that means that you are willing to extend yourself and learn about a culture or a, or a community that makes you uncomfortable because there is no division. Or if you just let those boundaries within yourself fade away. And that's the work, that's the powerful work. 0 (15m 27s): So how can someone get past the idea that you can't be divine and also have desire? 1 (15m 34s): Well, so that's the kind of thing, I mean, one of the most beautiful things I read is just, when you think about sex and religion or, or divinity, just think about your spirit has desire. It's as simple as that, right? Your, your spirit. Why would this thing exist? I mean, we're talking about making a case for, for promiscuity or the concept of promiscuity. Why would this extremely powerful vital force exist within you if it was meant to be weaponized against you? Right? It, it is, it is known across the world. I mean, in, in, in, in tantra culture, it is a pathway to enlightenment. Spirituality is a pathway to enlightenment. Like literally from your root chakra all the way up to your head. You gotta, you gotta let the energy flow, otherwise you are, you know, you're, you're stuck, you're stilted. 1 (16m 19s): So you really have to understand that and, and internalize it. 0 (16m 22s): And then I guess, like what, let's say you, you grew up in a conservative house where you're taught that like your body is sinful and your desires are sinful. Yeah. Or even with, I mean, even some spirituality, it's the idea that desire is like the root of all of your suffering, right? So just because you want something, like that's the problems. You have to kind of overcome that. So how do you start to kind of shatter that worldview with someone who's maybe had that for 15, 20 years? 1 (16m 50s): I mean, I think, again, it's coming down to this. So I always tell people, I'm like, listen, if you're old enough to drive and you're old enough to vote, you are old enough to take your sexuality in your own hands, right? And it's something very simple. Something I do something called sexual scripts, right? You just sit down and after, you know, after you work through these, you go through some of these tenets. Well, like, let me explain to you what I talk about when I talk about, you know, sexual sexuality and spirituality. So then you write down, let's say 10 things that you think about sexuality, right? A sexual script is basically a story that you tell yourself. Men always initiate sex. Good girls, you know, don't do anal, whatever it is, right? You write those things down and then you put down next to it, whose voice is that? 1 (17m 33s): Right? Where did that come from? And then the next step is, do I believe it? Do I want it in my life? You know, that sort of thing. And then you slowly can start eliminating. And it's not a, these things are called practices for a reason. It's not an on off switch. But I, I do believe that the first step is acknowledging and examining something like these scripts and then working towards a reframe. Okay, if I'm gonna take this out, what am I gonna put in its place? You know, men, maybe men don't always have to be the initiator. What does that mean? That means that as a woman, it is my responsibility. It is my privilege, it is my joy to also be an initiator. 1 (18m 15s): So it's a, it's a, it's a process. The, the, the fearsome part or the fearful part for me is you can go through your entire life without doing this work. And those are the people I think that end up projecting their shame onto other people. The more so, not only are you yourself harmed, but you're harming potentially generations. 0 (18m 32s): Oh, absolutely. And I, I've been in such a space when it comes to my previous work where I don't have shame about it. I'm an open book. Sure. I made those decisions and I sure I stand by them. And then some people will do just that, which is they are trying to give me, lend me their shame. And they get mad that I don't take it. I'm like, well, that's not mine. Yeah. Like, your feelings are your own. And I'm sorry that I'm not gonna take that on for myself, but you get to decide whether or not, like you wanna hold onto that. But I decided a long time ago, that's not exactly for me. But, and then even coming from that space where I'm like, oh, I don't have that much shame, but then I would realize I'm at a bar with some friends, and then we get into the topic of sexuality, and all of a sudden I get like, really quiet. Yeah. And then I'm like, wait, who's listening? 0 (19m 13s): Like, oh, well, it's still there in different ways too. Sure. Because why, why am I embarrassed if like the waiter hears what I'm talking about? A never gonna see them again. And it's a very human experience. So it's, it's a weird thing where it kind of can show up in a sneaky way. 1 (19m 26s): Well, for sure. And remember I said practice, right? Yeah. And, and also we've also, we've talked about, as those of us, all of us in this industry, you have to be a little careful. You have to be a little discerning because it's not, it's not a welcome conversation. It's not a safe conversation in every place. I'm, I'm, I'm an Indian woman that talks about sex openly, but I grew up in a big city in India that's open. But if I were doing this in a smaller town, I might be a little bit more careful, maybe less open. Mm. And I think that's okay. I think you've gotta, you've gotta meet people where you, where they are while pushing boundaries in a safe, strategic, and responsible way. 0 (20m 1s): Yeah. That's a really good point. When it comes to maybe unconscious ways that we could be instilling shame into like our partners ourselves or our kids, how do you, how do you make sure that you're, I guess, not doing that? How do you clock that and take that responsibly? 1 (20m 18s): You know, it's, I think that's a tricky one because we just talked about how shame is like, it, it's so massive, right? It's all over our lives. And it, it hits it, it hits so many different aspects of us. Everything from how we look, how we walk, how we feel about ourselves, you know, how, how, how well we fuck if we don't fuck all of that kind of stuff, right? So I think that instead of burdening yourself with a constant, am I putting shame on people? I think working on that oneness, on that curiosity, on that lack of judgment in your everyday existence. And for some of us in this field, we're very lucky because we have to come across that every day, every day we have to check our biases. 1 (21m 1s): And when I do a lot of work in sex and tech, and I have to, you know, I have to really, I have to really check my prejudices when I talk about people who have sex with robots, right? And, and I have to check other people. So these just every day, and you don't have to be working in our industry to do this. I think every day we could do ourselves a favor by just showing up with less judgment and more curiosity. Especially for kids. There's so perceptive and they're so sensitive and they're like sponges. And what we fail to remember with kids, I think all the time, is that our actions speak louder than our words. We, and I think hypocrisy in parents when it comes to sexuality is one of the worst things we can do to our children. 0 (21m 38s): So how do you approach that conversation with your kids? Like, I guess the initial conversation about sex and their body and all of, all of the things where it can go wrong? 1 (21m 48s): Yeah. I think I, first of all, I think one of the misconceptions is that it's just the talk. Yeah. And it's not, it's a series of talks, right? It's an open dialogue. And as somebody who talks about sex for a living, I actually go the opposite route. I try not to beat them on the head with it. I mean, for God's sake, they're looking at me on Instagram and, and all the rest of it. But here, here's what I think I do know, right? And as parents, you're always second, second guessing yourself. But I think my kids know that I am an open and safe space for them. And that's really all I want, is that there, if there's something that you wanna discuss, something that's on your mind, I would, I wanna be the first frontier in this space, right? You wanna come and talk to me about football? 1 (22m 28s): I have no fucking idea, but this place I can, I can help you with. So I think that's what parents can hope for. Kids will, you know, people that I interview, you know, they'll say as, as the bar is high. 'cause they'll say things like, oh yeah, you look, I'm a I'm a queer polyamorous person. And my parents were like, yeah, yeah, okay, we love you anyway. But they didn't wanna learn anything more about it. Right? And on the other hand, people are like, oh, some research will show moms try and have the sex talk, but then they talk three times as much as their kids. So it's, it's, it's not an easy thing to do. But I think the first step is acknowledging your biases. How discomfort, how uncomfortable you are with sexuality and owning that a little bit. 1 (23m 9s): And then being willing to learn from your kids. 0 (23m 12s): Yeah. You, it's kind of your duty to get through your discomfort. I 1 (23m 16s): Think so, and again, easier said than done, right? But I mean, imagine what these kids have access to now in terms of technology and the way we are baking, breaking boundaries around sexuality and gender and all these things. I mean, we have to learn from the next generation, because they're not, you know, we like to think, oh, gen Z, they're all freaks or gen, whatever, you know, I don't know what they're doing. They're not having sex anymore. Whatever. Yes and no, they're, they're pushing boundaries in a way our generations, or at least my generation, never did. And we have to give, give them that respect. And we have to give them that pat platform and hear them out. 0 (23m 50s): Yeah. I think it's really important to listen to them. And then also if you're not going to take that burden on yourself to have that uncomfortable conversation. Yeah. Like you said downstairs, someone else, it's gonna be their peer or it's gonna be the internet. And both of those things are gonna be a tragedy because that peer is not, shouldn't be in a position of like orientation or leadership. They have no idea. It's the blind leading the blind and then the internet, it's, and everything. And anything's there. So what absolutely, what they stumble upon can be like a catastrophe. 1 (24m 17s): And it is really sad that sex education is more a political thing than it is a fact based scientific thing. So, you know, we will have a new president and suddenly you're allowed sex education and then somebody will move on, and then sex education is, is is gone. And it's just, that's really, if we could regulate it in a way and make it more consistent and make it more scientific and less arbitrary morality, I think our kids would be in a much better place. Yeah, 0 (24m 42s): I agree on it. I think it should be scientific back, right? And then, I mean, I'm a big proponent of that's the parents' job, but I understood to stand not all parents show up in that way so that those kids shouldn't be left behind. Because we do know that if they don't have any education, that it, the likelihood of teen pregnancy actually goes up. But I just, I just really wish parents would kinda like take the responsibility of their kids back into their hands. And there are so many ways where I see them using everything as a proxy. And they, and I get it, they're busy. Most people have to, both parents usually have to work and they're overstimulated, they're exhausted. And if you're a single mom, like God help you. But it's still like, what is the most important thing? 0 (25m 22s): And, and it is, it is bringing up your child. So it's not the school's job, it's not the government's job. It's certainly not their friend's job. Mm. So you have to, you have to be like, where the buck stops and just show up in that way. And I know that's hard, but it is your responsibility 'cause you brought them here. 1 (25m 38s): I think it's a collective responsibility because I think for instance, let's take just for, you know, for the sake of simplicity, let's take three major institutions that a child touches in the first 10 years of their lives, right? You've got the parents, you've got some sort of faith-based organization, and then you've got school. And if, if there's dissonance between the three of them, the message gets lost. So I think each of those things, and this is where we all have to step up collectively as cultures have to have to reinforce the messages that this is a natural part of, of growing up. There is curiosity is natural. If there are resources, you know, I mean, if you need resources, here they are. This is what we, this is what we offer as communities. 1 (26m 19s): Right? I'll give you an example. Even how we take care of, of new mothers defers around the world, right? I had my first child in Australia where you, you come off from hospital and then they direct you your six week checkup is not with another doctor, it's with a, gosh, I forget, I forget what they're called. But it's like an, like a, an early childhood clinic where a, a nurse meets you, it's a free service and they offer you all the resources. So what you're signaling is first of all, that this is not an economic endeavor. This is to make sure that as a community we take care of young mothers. 'cause that's a fucking shit show, right? Yes. So if we did something similar in the sexuality con context, what we'd be saying is we're giving you uniform information and we're all reinforcing that you need to be taken care of. 1 (27m 5s): There are so many ancient practices that have that, that signal coming of age because it's a really significant part. What do we do? We pretend it doesn't happen, right? We just sort of like fast track and we talk about college, and that's not doing kids any favors. That's not, that's not celebrating a new phase in your life or treating you how to teach it with treat it with honor. It's telling you that it's, you know, it's gonna be problematic and nobody, nobody really knows how to deal with it. Go to the internet. 0 (27m 33s): Yeah. Yeah. I loved the, you were saying the opposite of shame is honor. I loved that so much. I 1 (27m 40s): Love that too. You know, I actually looked up, when I was first writing this presentation, I looked up what are all the words that are the opposite of, of shame? And there are others. I just loved this one particularly in the context of, because it also, to me, honor doesn't, it's not so black and white. It can, you can take your time to really get that. I think all of us who are women who put ourselves out there, we've taken our time, we've gone through a journey to really know what that honoring feels like. And I think that's important. Yeah. In, in whatever way, shape, or 0 (28m 7s): Form. Yeah. For me it feels like this embodiment. Yeah. Right. It's like stepping into ownership of yourself. 1 (28m 13s): Absolutely. And for me, it feels like pride wasn't the goal, but I'm so proud now and I can see that I'm impacting other people simply by, you know, the way, the way people ask me questions in the, in the, in the shadows of the rooms. Like at a, at a party, even the men will come and ask me a question in the corner. I'm like, you know what? I don't care if you have to do it secretly. I'm glad you're asking. And that's, you know, one person at a time. That's what we can do. 0 (28m 39s): So I wanted to get into na like coating shame. So again, maybe it's not yours and it's someone significant. Sure. Can I share the story that you did downstairs about your Instagram post? Sure. Okay. So you were, you were talking about how you had this nude photo on Instagram. It wasn't show anything, but you could clearly tell that you were nude Yep. And that your teenage son came to you and said, Hey, all my friends saw this. Yeah. Can you please take it down? Yeah. And you were like, let's meet in the middle and I'll just unpin it. And basically it was an important part of you and your expression. I perked up when I heard that because I am all over the internet. Sure. And I know that it is, it's counting down until I have a very similar situation. 0 (29m 20s): Sure. How do you navigate like respecting their boundaries where they're at developmentally and where they are with shame. And then it's not even just theirs, right? It's like his, he said it, my friend said, so now he's taking on his, so it's all of these different layers of collective shame and still honoring your yourself and your right to express and sympathize and empathizing with him. It's just, I just wanna learn from someone who's a few steps ahead down the path. 1 (29m 48s): You know, it's tough because that was, that was a really hard conversation and I'm sure it's not the first that's gonna, that's gonna occur. And it would have, if it was an adult that brought that to me, I would be like, grow the fuck up. Like you can deal, right? But because it's a child and because it's my child and because I study shame, look at the irony. Right? And he's coming to me with all this shame in his entire body. Like, he even said it to me ly, mama, can you take that? And I have the sweetest boy, right? So I'm like, I'm already dying. Look what these boys, his friends, my son has seen this picture, right? And he's never brought it up until his friends brought it to him. 1 (30m 29s): Right? Because this picture was probably two years old. What those boys are doing is shaming me for being a mom and being sexy, for being maybe a certain age and putting myself out there. And I have this much patience for it, which is zero right? Now that being said, in our, in the spirit of not doing harm in our work, and as, as people and as individuals and as caretakers, I, I did wanna meet him where it was comfortable for him and it was a really good opportunity for us to talk about. But this is what I do, right? I help people overcome these boundaries. So literally, like, we are gonna hold hands and we're gonna take baby steps together. 1 (31m 8s): But the most important thing that I reinforced him and I, God I hope he heard me, was I'm so glad you told me. And that that has to be our promise to one another. That if something bothers you about what I do, and God knows if something bothers me, I tell him, you have to bring it to me because there's going to be more. And if it's not gonna be these friends for this post, it's gonna be something for something else. Like I'm, I'm all over the news because I have an AI boyfriend, right? I'm, I'm a sexology sexology researcher and I'm studying the tech piece. And, you know, that didn't bother him so much. He, I was like, did you see the article? 'cause these, you know, these kids are a little bit of my target audience for this work because they're the ones using it. They're so comfortable with technology in the way, you know, my generation is not. 1 (31m 49s): And he was like, yeah, well you sound crazy because you know, you have a, a tech boyfriend. I was like, cool, I can deal with that. Right? That's so in a way, I am now using them to kind of test and see what the reaction is in the mainstream world so that I can combat it. I will not be shying away from it, but it's no easy feat. 0 (32m 8s): Yeah. And I guess is there a conversation too with him and, and how to pick his tribe? Because the way I see it too is if you have someone that's, that belongs in your community, that that's not how we behave or treat each other. 1 (32m 22s): You know, it's a good question. But I think that do expect 15-year-old cisgender boys in cities like San Francisco to not react to my work. I, I, I honestly think that's asking too much. I 0 (32m 37s): Feel like they'd be more open than probably most places. 1 (32m 39s): I think this is them being open. Okay. I think them just pointing it out and instead of it being uglier, I'm not really reaming him. I think that was them being open. I mean, there are lots of, I have a 13-year-old and a 16-year-old. I'm surrounded by teenagers and I think generally I might listen, I'm gonna go out on a limb here, and they're not listening to this. I suspect they're all quite proud of me. Okay. And I suspect five years from now they'll be able to express it. And, and I'll give you, I'll give you an anecdotal example. On my 40th birthday, my ex-husband put together this sort of montage of words. And I notice that from my two nieces that I'm very close to and my daughter, the three words or whatever, whatever. And courageous and brave were the words that showed up. 1 (33m 22s): And I just marked it for myself. You know, we all need that reinforcement every once in a while, but I suspect they'll be okay. Now, the caveat is I'm an academic, right? Right. My, my body is out there in a specific context. I'm, you know, I don't do a lot of full nudity and stuff like that. So that is a very different conversation Oh absolutely. For people, women, particularly that are doing that work. And I think that the number one thing is, I mean, you owe your children a lot, but it is still your body. It's your body, it's your choice. And I mean, obviously the world, world you and I live in, I think this is sacred work. So you're, I'm gonna bring you along with me, I think is the story. 0 (34m 2s): Yeah, that's helpful. 1 (34m 5s): It's not easy. Appreciate, I 0 (34m 6s): Appreciate you sharing. Yeah. Sorry. Yeah. So I, when it comes to the shame or the expected shame of women of like a certain age, there's this idea that we expire like old milk after 25. Sure. Especially after you're no longer fertile. Yeah. You can't provide children. So sex is supposed to kind of be off of the table. That seems, it seems really odd and like there's probably not a lot of historical evidence that that's the way it's always been. Layla Martin talks about this and she says, ironically, it's the postmenopausal women that were the most sexual and they actually were conduits and they, they were using their body and letting other people use their bodies strictly for pleasure because there was no risk of pregnancy. 0 (34m 49s): Right. So they were the only women up until birth control that could actually experience sex just for pleasure. So this idea that postmenopausal women are not supposed to be sexual is, it's kind of asked backwards. Yeah, 1 (35m 1s): It is. Because it's a whole patriarchal thing, right? About sex is for reproduction and women's job is to reproduce. And therefore, you know, for women it's all, it's all intertwined. And I'm glad you said 25, because nobody knows what that magic number is or what the shelf life. Sometimes, some places it's 25, sometimes it's 45. And I wish we could look back at ancient civilizations to see what they did. But the reality is that the life expectancy was a lot lower. Right? And now we're talking about longevity. You know, gurus wanna live to be 150 and I'm like, really? I only one 70 of those years to be sexless like, peace out, right? I'd rather die now. So I think we have to, we have to acknowledge that the body body does undergo a change. And our healthcare systems I think are woefully under-prepared or frankly just prejudiced and will not answer those questions. 1 (35m 50s): And so you see it on both the societal side and then you see it on the healthcare provider side where a lot of my girlfriends in their fifties will be like, you know, my sex life is suffering, but I'm too embarrassed to ask my doctor. It's something as simple as lube. Everybody knows that your vagina starts drying up and it's literally something as simple as using lube or an estrogen cream. And still you have to go and advocate for yourself with a healthcare provider, assuming they even know what tools are available for them. So I think that's a big problem. I think we also have to acknowledge on the men's side that there are some changes as well. We don't talk about andropause a lot. Andropause is similar to what women experience. It's a drop in testosterone. So your libido goes down and your, you know, your muscle mass and hair loss, things like that. 1 (36m 36s): And when you don't know that, that's just a natural progression of your body. And certainly there are things you can do to delay it or to make it feel better, then you think it's you. And then that comes back to the shame piece. And what do we know about men when they feel shame, they further isolate and we're already in an intimacy and isolation crisis. Is this really the cycle that we wanna do? And we can all get over ourselves and sit together and be like, all right, we know this is the natural progression. Let's make sure we have the right tools, the right education, the right mechanisms. It's not Viagra. Viagra is not the solution because then it means that everybody thinks they just take a pill and they're sorted. But sexual wellness that we know has been researched over and over and over again, has a multidimensional aspect to it. 1 (37m 21s): There's the physical piece, which your Viagra will solve, but there's the emotional, the mental and the spiritual pieces that really have to come from you. And that's, that's Gina Ogden's four, four D dimensional four D model of sexual wellness that I didn't make that up. So it's out there. 0 (37m 36s): Yeah. And the medical piece that's so frustrating to me. It's, it's how dismissive they are about the importance of, of healthy sexual function. I was on this medication when I was 1919. It, it put me into menopause. So I was in menopause for about a year. Wow. And all of the symptoms that you, that yeah. You would do if you were experiencing it naturally. Dryness, loss of sex drive. Yeah. My skin went to shit night sweats. It was really, really awful. And I went to them about, and specifically was talking about sex drive and like, I didn't understand why like the dryness. So like, this is crazy. I couldn't lu self lubricate if I wanted to. And they're like, oh, well that's just, it's expected of course. And it's not that big of a deal. It's just your sex life and don't you wanna feel better? 0 (38m 18s): And it's like, no, this is, especially at that age, it's such a fundamental part of your, like your just overall wellness. And then if you talk to them about hormones, one of my friends owns a, like a really innovative practice, shout out Gabe, Dr. Frank. But he has people coming to him saying, like, MDs coming to him saying, oh, what you do is kind of nonsense. Like hormones, that's a scam, right? And he's like, no. Yeah, it's so important. So people like myself, I have to go to private practice if I want my like a full panel to see where my hormones are at. Yeah. Nutrients, micronutrients, because the main medical community still thinks it's kind of a farce, which is a joke. So yeah. Women like, yes, you can go do hormone that's not just for men. 0 (39m 1s): Find someone who's on the cutting edge of science and is really looking at these longevity and healthspan lifespan protocols because they're out there. It just sucks because now you're paying out of pocket. 'cause none of them really take insurance. But it just, it blows my mind how dismissive and how you have these MDs that are just so uneducated and they're so stubborn. Yeah. And they just don't put an emphasis on this. And they've done studies with men specifically, and once they stop having sex, like their health and their lifespan plummets. Yeah. Plummet. So it actually does, it takes years off of your life, the moment you stop having sex. 1 (39m 34s): Absolutely. I mean, just something very basic that sexual wellness is linked to your overall wellness. I mean, for god's sake. And we get a bumper sticker already, like it's basics and yes, the, the people who as a 19-year-old were pooing it. I mean, I think those people should be, you know, I think they should, they have their licenses taken away. And i'll, and you know, I'll give you another example that is so similar. I interviewed a social worker who works specifically with cancer patients, right. And all she helps them do is reconnect with their, their sexuality and their sexual illness. So primarily people that suffer from reproductive cancers, so prostate, ovarian, breast cancer, et cetera. And she said something similar but so heartbreaking. She said, you know what happens once people survive cancer? They're like, well, you lived, so, you know how, how dare you want anything else? 1 (40m 17s): Yeah. Right. Yeah. So she is out there doing all her life's work is around helping these people get back to some form of sexual wellness because it is such an integral part of who we are. I guarantee those cancers not guarantee. Okay. I will, I'm venture to believe that those cancer survivors that get back to some form of sexuality will lead much more fulfilled lives than, than those who don't. 0 (40m 41s): So with the people that you've worked with and the studies that you've done, do you see a correlation between sexual wellness and overall what, like wellness, including mental, mental health? Yeah. 1 (40m 51s): I mean it's, it's across the board at, at every level. And you also see, you see the reverse, like, like you said, where people don't have it and the quality of life suffers. And there some very, you know, there is science around what makes good sex. And it's not this whole pressure of penetration and all that kind of stuff. It has to do a lot with the idea of bringing intimacy into your life all the time. Right. Some of the studies will show that good sex is about communication sexting, right? People who sext more couples who sext more actually have better and more sex. Right. And creativity and being adventurous. 1 (41m 32s): And yeah. If you're an asshole to your partner, you're very likely not gonna have the most enjoyable sex life. So all of the, again, coming back to that wheel, all of these things are things you can play with. So you don't put so much pressure on the act of penetration. Does that make sense? Yeah. 0 (41m 51s): And then, so on the inverse with that, the relationship to shame and sexuality, repressed sexuality denying it entirely is the relationship between that and violence. 1 (42m 5s): So I, okay, so what I have studied research that I've seen is in men, when men are specifically feeling shameful about their body in the context of sex. So penis size, gut receding, hair lines, low body mass, muscle mass, et cetera, they are more likely to be hostile or violent towards the women in their lives. Now, anecdotally, I've also heard comments in my interviews that echo this. So for instance, there was a gentleman that said, in my culture it was all about how big my dick was. And the way you showed How big your dick was, was how badly you hurt the woman you were having sex with. 1 (42m 46s): Mm. So we would come back as teenage boys and use words like, I smashed her, I crushed her. And the, these are all, you know, that that sex and violence piece is very, very intertwined. And I'll give you one more example, and this is purely hypothetical, I haven't studied it, but you know, India is Root Delhi and Johannesburg, new Delhi and Johannesburg trade off as the rape capitals of the world. I mean, of all the things to be fucking famous for, I'm embarrassed that that's part, that's my country. And there's tremendous amount of sexual repression in my culture. There's a lot of shame across the board. And there are also, by the way, there are a lot more boys and there are girls because for, we still kill our female babies, right? 1 (43m 27s): Oh my gosh. There's a lot of female infanticide that I didn't, that happens in parts of India. It's, it's very fucked up. So all this to say that when you read about really violent rape that occurs in India, I can't believe that there isn't a correlation. Yeah. But I don't know who's studying. And I'd love to, I'd love to talk to somebody who is, 0 (43m 44s): Yeah, I don't, yeah, I'm not familiar of any formal studies, but I just kind of see pattern recognition with that in across like cultures, whether it's by region or whether it's by something like a church or an institution where you do see this thing where you deny it, suppress it, whatever, and it comes out the other side in a way that's unpredictable and often really unhealthy. Yeah. Yeah. 1 (44m 5s): And it's gonna be interesting to see, and this is, this is the debate that we're all, you know, all of us in the sex and tech world where we're trying to see can we use these tools to teach better behaviors or can we use these tools to, you know, scratch that itch in a sense so that human beings are safer for the moment. And then we go into a whole philosophical conversation about what about the robots and what about the technology and the ethics, et cetera. And that's a whole other minefield. 0 (44m 30s): Well, speaking about sex robots, yes. Do you think that it is going to be basically an escape pod for men in the future? That they are not gonna wanna deal with the, the work and effort vulnerability of chasing a human versus something that's guaranteed. It's not gonna talk back, it's gonna, they're printing program and they can have whatever they want whenever they want. So do you think it's going to be, or add to this birth gap that we have globally, right? Like no one's having babies anymore. Do you think it's basically gonna lead to our extinction in some kind of fashion? 1 (45m 5s): So it's, it's gonna take a while. I think for us to be extinct, I think that it's already happening. So sex robots are a little bit more, you know, they're on the higher end of the, of the technology spectrum. But right now we've got AI chatbots, right? And they're all very nice and you can build them from scratch and they tell you you're wonderful. And they're always there. And people do say this, I wanna be very careful because I, I'm a techno optimist. I think there are great uses for these technologies. Part of what I said, can we use them to teach better behaviors, et cetera. But yes, what concerns me now is there's a complete lack of conflict resolution or negotiation. And people will say she's always there and she always says nice things to me. And that's, you know, that's not what human beings are made, that's what human relationships are made up. 1 (45m 48s): You, there is supposed to be negotiation, there's supposed to be a dynamism, there's supposed to be some sort of pushback. Let me also say that now women are also getting on this bandwagon. So it's not just for men. Women 0 (45m 59s): Are getting sex robots, 1 (45m 60s): Women are getting, well, they're not getting the robots yet, so you can buy a sex robot. Now 0 (46m 4s): They're mostly, I've never seen a male robot. 1 (46m 6s): They're, they're building them. Okay. So, and for funny, I saw prices. I saw the, you can buy the female robot that of course looks like Barbie. 'cause I thought we dismantled her last year, but here she is, I think it's $9,000 and then it's $11,000 for the, for the male, the male robot. But the difference with these with now with AI is that you can download an AI personality onto these robots. So we're getting closer and closer to their humanness. And the question of extinction is, I mean TBD right? We can replicate, we're talking about uploading our entire brains to the cloud. Do we think that we can manufacture babies in a, you know, in a, in a glass or use some sort of robot, maybe even a male robot to carry children? 1 (46m 48s): I don't know. The world is our oyster. The question is, are we gonna do it consciously and ethically and responsibly? I don't know. It worries me and I sit in Silicon Valley where a lot of these things are being, a lot of these technologies are being developed and I don't see people asking enough of these questions. 0 (47m 3s): I agree with you. Did you see that movie with Amelia Clark? I don't know the name of it, but it was a futuristic movie and it was just that no one was having babies naturally anymore. So you would get this little egg and you would carry this egg around with you. Yeah. And like, we don't want the baby to get bored. Let's play music. Which is so stupid. The baby in utero is bored. And then you would like feed it this food that goes through. And it was just like such a detached experience. And some people, like you had the, the option to, but it was like, it was inconvenient. Yeah. I don't wanna be out nine months. Your boss doesn't want you out for nine months. Then there's recovery and Oh, what's it gonna do to my body? So everyone just opted for like the easy thing, but easy way. Yeah. But there are all these unpredic, unpredictable things. We don't even know what consciousness is yet. 0 (47m 43s): And there's so much that quantumly exists between like entanglement and how I affect you. Sure. And to take that experience of gr like that connection, right? There's such, and they've, the way that we know that there's something, there is you, if you have surrogacy, the baby knows the difference between the moms that provided the egg versus the mom that carried. Interesting. 1 (48m 5s): I 0 (48m 5s): Didn't know that there, yes, they like smell, sound, and they actually have a preference for the mom that carried. So there is some kind of energetic exchange that we don't know the impact of that yet. So I often wonder the sake of progress for progress. Like what if you're just progressing off a cliff? Yeah, well 1 (48m 21s): Know. I mean, I think, I think we're arrogant enough to think that we can solve all these problems. And what irritates me is we've been trying to answer questions about consciousness now because we wanna put them in a robot. We think we have the answer, we do not have the answer. We are the fact that we are so flippant, I think, and again, I know I said I'm a techno optimist and I really am, but I just think that we need to be much more, we need to be much more realistic about what we do not know. And I'm not saying there are certain things that are off limits in terms of what we should build, but you certainly, I think there needs to be much more interdisciplinary conversations. And I think that the, you know, the legalities along with the regulatory people, along with the social scientists like us, along with the media right now, every time I talk about sex and tech, people reference two things they miss. 1 (49m 9s): They reference her Spike Jones her, and they reference X macina. That's it. Those are our templates for sex and technology. How the fuck are we gonna teach people to use AI responsibly to better connect with ourselves and better connect with one another? How are we gonna teach people about what sex robots can be in a positive context? And to be wary of the negative ones? We can't because we're too busy writing sensationalist movies about exit, listen to music or whatever the fuck it is. Yeah. Without any real information or real documentaries. And, you know, I'd like to put a call out to producers and people that are writing mainstream media. It's time to have those conversations. Every AI conference that I've been to, there's, first of all, there's a robotic dog that's doing handstands. 1 (49m 53s): Like, okay, great. I I appreciate that. But you know, we really need to talk about this intimacy piece because it is, it is. People are producing things in black corners and selling them on porn hub and their robotics and their different versions. We have to put the conversation on a mainstream stage. Sorry, this is my soap box. It drives me bananas. And I'm, I'm concerned. I'm really concerned. 0 (50m 16s): No, I agree. And I tend to look at Japan as a model because they seem to be a decade or so ahead of us when it comes to that. You have like these young men that are marrying their robots or their dolls. And I just, I just wonder, it's like, is this ultimately gonna be good or bad? Because it, it seems to reinforce the disconnect between human to human. Yeah. I 1 (50m 39s): Mean, it it, when you look, when you look at those studies, and I've read those anecdotes as well, they all come down to the same thing. It's these men saying, you know, I was rejected and I'm lonely and she's nice to me and she's here all the time. And maybe we could all stand to be a little nicer to one another. For sure. And I'm very sympathetic to lonely people who, you know, who haven't been able to get a date or if you have a disability and you can't work in a certain way. That's why I'm saying I think there are great uses and, and, and use cases. And I do see a world in which this is integrated and I, what we're talking about in terms of, you know, robots taking over and you know, lacking com all human. I think that's still ways away. 1 (51m 20s): Yeah. But right now we have to take the opportunity to educate people so that we can integrate properly. 0 (51m 27s): Yeah. And I think it's self-auditing too, right? So if you are, you, it's a much different example. But if you use women with vibrators, it's, it's been around for a lot longer. It's more accessible. Sure. They're very affordable. Right. All like the barrier to entry is basically null. There are some women that might use that as a means to not be with their partner when they try to compare their partner to the toy, which is never a good idea. 'cause they're very different things once, right? Sure. Battery op operated. Sure. But it's like you just have to constantly self-audit and say like, am I overdoing this? Am I using this as a means of escape or avoidance or you know, and just kind of reel it into a healthy level to where you can play with this thing occasionally and it's a great supplement. 0 (52m 7s): Maybe it like adds to your relationship with your partner. 'cause there are cases where you can do that. So yeah, just like constantly being honest with yourself and how you're using the tool. 1 (52m 15s): Absolutely. And even, you know, to come back to that technology piece, I mean, I've heard of, you know, you can have a hologram in your room if you wanna have a threesome. I think that's great, right? It's maybe it's a, it's a, it's a beginner conversation before you bring in a real person. I think there are lots of ways to do it, but you're right, the honesty piece, and if we pull out the shame piece, 'cause of so much of our energy is battling up within ourselves. Should I be doing this? Have I masturbated too much? Is this toy too big? Does my, you know, should my child know that I have a a I have a vibrator in my drawer. All this shame crap. If we can actually remove it, then we can come to those conscious pieces and really be like the, you know, I'm not, I'm not ashamed of my sexuality now how do I optimize it? How do I make it most fulfilling for all aspects of me, my soul included? 0 (52m 58s): Yeah. You're here. Can you tell the listeners what you're working on, how they can support you, where they can follow you. This has been amazing and thank you again so much. 1 (53m 6s): No, thank you. Gosh, we covered a lot. 0 (53m 7s): We sure did. 1 (53m 8s): Yeah. Well you can find me on Instagram at Kaamna live, Kaamna live.com. I am gonna be launching my own podcast soon because I like to talk deep and I love this conversation. So that's coming up at the end of the year and there's gonna be a book coming out in 2025. So yeah, just follow me on everything. I'm on LinkedIn as well and I'd love to connect. Yeah. And thank you Candace for having me. 4 (53m 29s): Amazing. Anytime. Thank you everybody.