A Conversation with Pastry Chef Kate Holowchik of Lionheart Confections

Welcome to the Chefs Without Restaurants odcast. I'm your host Chris pear. Today I'm excited to have n the show pastry chef Kate olowchik. I've known Kate for number of years now, mostl through our interactions at th StarChefs Congress up in New York City. After working her way through some of Boston's eclectic kitchens, she recently announced the launch of her own business Lionheart Confections. I'm excited to hear all about it. So welcome to the show, Kate.

Hey, how's it going? It's great. Thanks for coming on. Thank you for having me.

I'm excited to hear all about your new endeavors and kind of dive into some of the fun backstory of how you got to where you are today. Sure. So I guess why don't we start a little bit about that? What's your background with cooking? And did you always want to be in sweets be a pastry chef? How did you get to where you are?

I mean, it's definitely been a weird Minster interesting road, I was initially going to be a doctor. But after a while, I realized, like, I'm a creative at heart, that, uh, you know, I wasn't being fulfilled taking the, you know, intro classes, like for pre med, and I eventually start to go the way of like, and that's the other, like, Love My life is art. So I, you know, I'm pretty fluent in that I illustrate, I actually have a degree in illustration, I pursued that full time. So that was fulfilling that creative aspect for it. But during, you know, college, I, I grew up in a working class family, you know, my parents couldn't, you know, write checks for, you know, these expensive tuitions and stuff, so they, you know, told me, I need to get a job. So like, since I was 17, I always had a job while I was in college. So I always worked full time, while I was, you know, taking classes, and I was just restaurants, restaurants were just so natural for me to go to, just because, you know, it's like, readily available to that age group, you know, 17 to 19, when you start out, and I just, you know, found my passion in that, like, I had the initial, like idea that I needed to make lots of money. So I was doing that whole serving route. bartending, like learn how to bartend when I was in New Hampshire, and, you know, for a while, that's great. But after that, like, after enough of it, I start to realize I don't like being around people all the time. As much as I'm super friendly. I'm a very private person. And, you know, it's mentally draining to serve all the time and bartend all the time. I don't understand how people do it constantly. Because it's so exhausting, because I'm an empathetic person. So like, I'm out. And they're just some days where I just don't want to talk to anybody. So I ended up moving to back a house and working my way through kitchens, and, you know, starting on garbage and making salads. And, you know, my first independent restaurant I worked out in Bedford, New Hampshire, you know, we had a whole pastry playing station, and I just kind of looked over and like, I was always interested, we do like, you know, credit play, and like molten chocolate cake and all that goodness. And then we do like a dessert collection, which was like a mini version of all the desserts on the menu. And like, I love that, because you get to kind of play it the way you want it. So, as garbage j, you got to do that. And I always just every night, I just really want to be pastry player, I want to be the pastry player at night. And, you know, my team, you know, saw that I was, you know, really interested in that. So eventually the pastry team kind of took me on and took me under their wing and gave me more and more responsibility. portioning cookies, pinching tart shells. And like my patreon mentor, Elaine spear, she's amazing. You know, I still talk to her actively. And I always send her questions still about, you know, stuff we used to make and techniques. But she she basically kind of taught me the care. And, you know, we had a pastry department of like, she was the executive pastry chef. And then there was like, two pastry chefs underneath her. And then there was me, the little minion. And you know, the LG pastry chefs are great. I will never, you know, speak out of them. But Elaine, you could just see the finesse. And like, I always admired that, like the little touches, and, you know, the textures and like, the technique she would do. And just like, you know, it wasn't like this hoity toity like it was a fine dining restaurant. But it didn't. She didn't make it feel untouchable, because I feel like a lot was fine dining, a lot of chefs make it feel that way. Like it's precious. And I just don't like that where she just cooked with so much love and care that that just kind of naturally came with it. So, uh, you know, that I'm so thankful that I got to work under somebody like that and kind of started the ball rolling on, like, the passion for me. And then from there, you know, I kind of like, had a happenstance like hiring like, I remember taking over at a place in Manchester, like a farm farm to table restaurant, you know, that verbiage. And, you know, their pastry chef stocked and I came in and like, you know, fixed a lot of recipes and like, it was simple stuff. But you know, and that was my first like, executive pastry chef job, aka I was like the pastry cook, but still like to have that title. I was like, 22, which was cool. While going art school. And then I don't know like, I basically kind of take every job is like, what can I learn from this? It's not necessarily like moving on. ladder in that sense, like looking for the next job title like pastry chef, executive pastry chef, you know, owning the place, you know, it's not like that's not how I view it. I don't mind doing like a lateral move, knowing that I'm going to learn something or work under somebody to gain more knowledge and like refine my skills.

So there seems to be less growth in the pastry world. Like if you go to a restaurant, like how many places in that restaurant Can you move to like, once you get to that level of pastry chef, you're kind of at the top right. So you can either have to just stay there or move out.

Or like my favorite was like when I, you know, really started like when I moved to Boston, like, that's what I did after I graduate art school. I had the moment I'm like, you know, I had a lot of friends that were waiting around the school hoping that you know, this big art job was going to happen. I'm like, you got to pursue your own like opportunities. And I was like, I'm gonna pursue my pastry profession. And like my industry profession, I knew Boston was gonna be a bigger opportunity for me. And I always loved going to Boston. So it was just naturally for me to move down there.

Yeah, I love Boston. I mean, I'm from Marlborough, which is, you know, like an hour, or 40 miles west of Boston, I think. So I spent a lot of time going there. I'm a little older than you. And the restaurant scene was a little different back when I was younger, but I mean, it was even great that I mean, there were so many amazing places. And, you know, it inspired me to want to be a chef, even if I didn't get into Boston as often as I would have liked. I mean, there's so many great restaurants there.

It's funny what people put in your direction. If you're like, I'm looking for a job opportunity. And like after I've ran a few programs, like once you start running your own program, especially if you're an executive chef, same thing. If someone sends you like, here's a sous chef job, you're like, no, like, I remember there was potential of me moving to New York at one point, everybody's like, you could be a pastry cook at 11 Madison Park, I'm like, No, like, because I know that's not the box, I need to put myself in, I know that I will not fit in that box. Like, I'm not saying it's below me, like the idea of working out of mass and park is amazing. I had friends who had connections there, but it's just not who I am. And that's one thing I've been like very avid about in my, you know, journey as a chef is just changing the dialogue and understanding that it's not a set path for everybody. It's not like, you know, we're all working our way to find dining like we're starting to realize like fine dining, dining, like, you know, white tablecloth, all that kind of service, like people want high quality food and that kind of stuff. But it's not about, you know, this weird hierarchy or, you know, class system anymore. It's just, you know, we need to just make good food and support our communities now.

Do you like working with people? And how are you working for people is there some of that where you don't really like to have someone to work under and you need a little more creative freedom.

I don't mind working with people. I'm, I definitely consider myself a good boss, I advocate for my staff heavily. I've, you know, I tend to get a lot of pastry cooks and, you know, pastry, sous chefs that have been through some shit. And, you know, worked in toxic environments. And my thing is, I always just want to change the, you know, dialogue in that, like, my last pastry assistant, I had, you know, she came from a very toxic bakery, and like, you know, giving her opportunities and, you know, she was a little rattled. In the beginning, I'll give her a heavier workload, she got a little flustered, but, you know, she grew into herself, she got more confident, and like, you know, there'll be weeks where I'm like, think of the new ice cream flavor. Think of the weekend donut, like here have some creative energy, we're doing these like, you know, cookies for Christmas. Like do you mind hand decorating these, like, this is yours, I want you to have a voice, you're gonna get credit for it. This is not mine, I want you to grow into yourself. It's not like, it's not ego driven. For me, I'm not like my name needs to be on all this, like expect a high quality for my stuff. But I also want my staff to have their own voice because I never got that, you know, coming through certain kitchens. I just always worked in under some like I put myself in situations knowing I wouldn't fit into it. In the sense of working under, like, I worked not too long ago for a chef that was getting pretty hard for a James Beard award. And I knew like it wasn't gonna be a good fit. Like I was in between, like, you know, working out what my next step was. And, you know, that was aggressive for me, but everything was like his name. Like, it has to be like his name. This is what like, very specific and I'm just like, I don't like this. I don't. I like structure. But I like creativity is why I love cooking. It's like, what brings me joy. And if that's eliminated from the equation, I don't want to be there.

And you've been very vocal about toxic work environments. I made no bones about it on Facebook, Instagram, a lot of the places we work that seemed like they weren't a good fit. And what is it about this industry especially I it seems like it's worse than a lot of other places. Seems like what's allowed in the restaurant industry would not fly in any other industry.

It's been like such an interesting dynamic because, you know, one of the worst I've ever went through is I went through a massive restaurant opening in 2015, like hot new restaurant, downtown Boston. It was one of the most abusive work environments I've ever been in. And that's when it kind of like I pride myself on being a very good person and Lots of people know that for me, is that, you know, I'll be there for you. I'll do stuff in the 11th hour on the friend, you can call on the hard worker, I'll like, you know, basically run myself ragged, like in order to help others. So when I see people take advantage of that with me, and at the time, I kind of didn't know what was going on. And like, Oh, no, this is like, what I should go through. This is like, normal, like, you know, I need to put myself through this. And like, I didn't have a day off for three months. And like, the first day off I had was my dad's birthday. And then I got shit for that. Because like, you know, anytime I do family stuff, they're like, oh, you're close with your family. I'm like, Yeah, my parents are pretty great. My brother is pretty great. It's just crazy to think like people like, become award obsessed, which I that's a huge thing on its own. And they, you know, abuse people, it's not good enough, they scream, they throw pans, they, you know, in that situation, I'll get pulled in the office constantly by the culinary director, because I was hired on before he found out he was moving from Nantucket to Boston. And in Nantucket, the restaurant he used to own that he pulled out as proprietor of his girlfriend was the pastry chef. So I was already hired. So that was a very interesting situation, because I know he wanted her and I almost approach the conversation, and I look back and I should have, but his way of handling it, instead of having a real conversation with me. And understanding that we're employment at will state if he told me, Hey, I think you're great. But I really want my girlfriend to be the pastry chef, that would be a whole different conversation. But instead, he bullied me. And it was never on my work ethic, or anything that matter he attacked my personal character would tell me how worthless and horrible I was every day. So and downstairs in our private dining room, I would just like most days, I started having like, massive panic attacks in the bathroom, like every day, hysterical crying. I was just not in a good place. And also, it wasn't making enough money. Like, you know, he's having these baller dinners with our chef, like, you know, with champagne and all this and spending all this money and like having these expensive trips, and I'm sitting there going, I don't know, if I can pay read, you know, or if I have like hooks that are like, Hey, you should grab a beer with us. I'm like, I don't have money. Like I'm, you know, paying my student loans back. I was, you know, in a very toxic living situation. And, you know, I just I had nowhere to run. So that was a very, you know, interesting situation to be put in, but to see it get to that point in it normalized. And it you know, it literally is like being in an abusive relationship, which I've been a victim of, sadly, and a survivor of I should say, and I left I walked out, you know, not in a bad way either. Like I still remember the last day. I came in early. I did all my prep. It was Memorial Day weekend. Is that one of may? Yeah, yes. Yeah. Well, I was always getting Memorial Day Labor Day mixed up. Me too. And, you know, they were gone. They're away on some Nantucket wine weekend, you know, event. Before my culinary director left, he took me in the office. And because I put my notice in and I gave it to our AGM and not him personally, because my anxiety was through the roof. And how abusive he was that I knew he would react terribly. He basically told me to my face that I should quit cooking if I can't handle it. So that was the last conversation I had. He wasn't even in the building my last day of service and I was going to meet my boyfriend at the time his parents in New Jersey. So I had my suitcase by the back like side door, like knowing what I was doing. And you know, I prepped everything like I overly prepped, like, you know, we had a Baked Alaska on the menu. Still, they're still my recipe that you know, in the freezer, we usually have like 12 out of go on a night. I left them with 52 so it wasn't like I was leaving them with you know, slim pickings, like I over prepped. So when the color directors girlfriend took over, she had that grace period of she can figure it out. So she has stuff to run with not have to worry about prepping regular service and she could work on her new dishes. So I you know, I was nice about I was more than nice about it. And you know, I'm done clean my station, like was about to walk out the door. And I get pulled upstairs like oh, we need to talk to you. And I was like all right is the crappy executive sous chef and the other sous chef who were part of the toxic culture. And you know, they they, the culinary director and the chef would gang up on me all the time and then gang up with the other boys. They're all men against me, and it was just like, no, she's crazy. Like she can't get her shit together like all this like no one ever asked me. Do you need help? What can I do to help you to be successful? Instead they were all about partying, being cool. Going for Ward's the Impaler on the internet like that, you know, Instagram bullshit culture. And, you know, no one. No one ever asked me if I needed help, which sucks. And so I got pulled upstairs and they're like, one of the line cooks called out. So we need you to work service. I was Like no, like, no. And they're like we have, you know, normally on Sunday, we'd have like, 90 covers, and most, but there were over 250. And I was like, I know. And then, you know, they're like, well, you need to go downstairs and count everything you have for inventory and then be up here for planning. I was like, Okay. Okay. So I went downstairs said goodbye to a lot of the Front of House staff because they knew what I've been through. And they were dealing with their own toxicity of the bar manager. And I went up the side stairs afterwards. And the executive CEO was walking out in the manager office and saw me leave. And I just bolted down the alleyway I bolted through Downtown Crossing, like heading to the next bus, I couldn't get on to get to New York City. And my phone was going off. It was my my chef. And I will have the moment I'm like, What am I gonna say? What am I gonna say? What am I gonna say? And then I was like, I don't want to say anything. I fulfilled my notice. I don't have to stay for service. I'm not gonna pick up within seconds. He unfriended me on like Facebook, and all social media, like, you know, adults. But it was that moment, like, it's so sobering, where you're just like, I'm in control of my life. And like, as soon as I got on the bus, I just start to cry, because I haven't had that mental freedom and a long time.

Holding sounds terrifying. I mean, I've never had anything like that I've had terrible work environments and anxiety. But I mean, that sounds like something like I'm, I'm getting stressed, just like listening to you relate to strain. And I've heard a lot of this before, because we've talked a lot. And it's just, it's appalling that these are the things that are happening. And it's not just people who are award chasers, I mean, there's plenty of chefs and cooks running small, unknown places in the middle of nowhere with no social media, who are also treating their employees. This way, you know, I mean, it does kind of inflate things a little bit when the stakes are higher, but just that it's happening way too much. And it's you're fortunate that you got out of there, and were able to kind of pick up the pieces and compose yourself and move on and stay in the industry, because I think a lot of people leave the industry. I mean, we didn't have anything like that. But my wife used to be a chef. And she dealt with this the first couple years. And she eventually got out of the industry. And she was dealing with it from female chefs as well. I mean, her first chef that she worked for was a woman who treated her the same way almost, that this guy was treating you and it's not just a gender specific thing all the time, she was almost acting just like these guys. And she ultimately decided, like, that wasn't the right environment. For her.

It's the one thing I learned in it is use that word, it's learned behavior. And my favorite thing I'm seeing now is like, we have our big chefs, like we, you know, have the big names here in Boston, you know, Barbara Lynch, and we have Chris Coons and you know, people like that, you know, that, you know, run these super big restaurants. And, you know, when I was looking for certain jobs, or like, you need to go through these kitchens, and people like, you have to do this in order to be somebody. And now I look now, and I'm like, I'm proud of the path I'm on and I that I have been on because I have paved my own way. Regardless of everybody's just like you didn't work in fine dining, you didn't work here. I'm glad I didn't, because I am not one of the broken children of these establishments, because my favorite thing is when these people go and leave these kind of groups that you know, you get shipped pay, that's a big conversation in Boston, like shift pay. And I had a, my childhood best friend came up here from Virginia, she was just looking for a change of scenery. And she worked in one of these groups. And she showed me her paycheck. And they the way they get around, it is like you worked five hours, but at $100 an hour, like that's how they get around it like on the books, but you know, they eventually got caught for that kind of stuff. And they can't do shift pay any more they shouldn't. But it probably is still done somewhere. But like shift pay, you know, clocking out early and then continuing to work. You know, one of the worst things I learned from other groups is like I get like constructive criticism and whatnot. But to drag it out. And to just make it like a verbal abuse fest is not healthy for anybody. It's like they have this thing called like the good, the bad, the ugly, where it's just like you say something good, something else, someone else did something bad that you did personally and the ugly. It's like, I can't remember how it goes. But it's just like, you do it at the end of a ship. This is after you've done cleaning, you have to have an end of ship debriefing. I'm like, this isn't a good note to end on. Like, I'd rather do at the beginning of the shift and be like, you know, how did last night service go and like, you know how to be that way and like step into the service with brighter eyes instead of like making it this like shaming fest. And so these people that worked in these environments go on to open up their own places, and we're seeing that now in Boston, and they're like, it's gonna be different. It's a healthier environment. And it's not like at all it's like they, they learned like from those people and like, you know, as you said, your wife worked for a female. I worked for my first female CDC, and she's amazing. But I can still see the remnants of, you know, the abusive kitchen she came through. And I was in a situation where I watched my chef, lay his hands on our sous chef, like Throw him on the ground because he wasn't putting love in a yogurt correctly on the pasta dish. The reality is we got busier than expected and my chef couldn't handle it. So instead of having a real conversation, he thought it was okay to put his hands on another person. And when I was on my way out, like I was just like, I can't work here anymore. And I was trying to tell my CDC about this, she just kind of looked at me blankly and I was like, he, like, put his hands on another human. That is not okay. Ever. She's like, Okay. And I'm like, hello. Like, in any like, if, in any other situation, it's not okay. Like, if you're in an office situation, and your boss takes you, it throws you on the ground from your seat like that. You're that's lost, you're gone. That's it? Like, that's it, as you said, it's like, why is this environment? Like? Why is it condone? Like, I? I don't know, I believe in like humanity and that kind of thing, like treating others with respect and like, they're just some fine lines like that. But it's a fine line. It's just like, No, you don't do it. abuse is not okay. demeaning. Someone is not okay. ripping someone apart for the personal character is not okay. Like, it's not helping anybody. And the biggest conversation for me, especially being a female, in kitchens, and being in management positions, I am firm. I am, you know, abrupt, sometimes most of the time. But you know, I've been called a bitch before, and that's fine. I'm used to it. But you know, I'm very caring, compassionate to the point where, you know, I know how to say things in like, Hey, I was firm with you because of this. Because, you know, this is getting messed up constantly. And I just want you to focus, do you understand what I'm telling you? Like? Do you get that, like, you know, how can I do this better? Like I opened the conversation, my staff instead of making it a problem, and I worked for plenty, like with plenty of female management, especially Front of House, especially my last GM who thinks passive aggressiveness is okay. That's something I really hate in kitchens. And like restaurants in general, I just don't understand why people do it. Because it's always going to end with a bad result. Like, I don't understand what the little sarcastic quip does. Just like, you know, as I said, some of the women I worked for I'm like, this is non negotiable. And like, especially if it's in like the heat of service, and I get that I've looked at, you know, management before, and I'm like, you never address me like that. You never talk to me like that, I would never talk to you like that you don't talk to me like that ever. So unlike when you draw hard boundaries, like people just freeze up and don't know what to do, which is kind of funny to watch,

you don't see a lot of people push back.

Well, it's just like, the toxic nature of the industry is where you always feel like your job is being held over your head like a carrot. And that's always what I've been like for me. But it's, you know, working through these toxic kitchens and knowing that I've made a good name for myself, and that, as I said, I pride myself on being a good person that I will land on my feet. And I've always, like, believed that mantra, and now I'm really starting to believe it. So when you can tell these people that want to dangle that carrot, and you can look him in the face and say, I don't need you. That's the most empowering moment for all of it.

So how much is it because of your gender? I know you've talked about wanting to kind of change the culinary climate as it relates to how women and non sis males are viewed in the culinary industry, like how do you plan on accomplishing those kind of changes and, and having those conversations?

I mean, I guess the biggest thing right now is like ice cream allowed. I am allowed advocate for this kind of stuff. And I've been aggressive, especially like, you know, with my last restaurant job, and I'm hoping that's actually my last restaurant job working under a toxic male is I've been firm, I've been aggressive. I've called up bullshit. And like, they just don't like it. And I'm like, I don't care if you control my paycheck, like, I'm looking at you as like, I would wish someone would tell me when I'm off my game, or I'm being bad, or I'm being you know, not doing my job well. And it's just a matter of being vocal and being clear about it. And, you know, I try not to get like angry, I don't yell. There's just no purpose in it. But I will be firm with someone and I get pretty sharp sometimes because people don't listen. And that's the, you know, main problem we're having in this industry is, you know, the conversation needs to be ripped wide open. And thank God because of the pandemic that people are starting to see a lot more of this happening and coming forward, especially in the Boston scene. A lot of these toxic chefs are getting called out and called out hard, because people are on their phones all the time. Now, you know, we have so many more people that are furloughed or, you know, unemployed and you know, we're all doom scrolling and wondering when the world's gonna end at this point. But uh, you know, people are more like, apt to see stuff so that's why like, I felt like this was a more apt time to start having the conversation and to start being more vocal and to call the stuff out because I know I'm not the only one you know, it post I put up and I'm one of these people that I feel better when I vocalize and if Throw it into the nethers. And like, you know it for me, it's a release. And that's what I kind of use social media when I have my mole tangents and talk openly about mental health or situations I've been in or like how we need to change the dialogue. But I get such a good response, I get messages from people young line cooks, my most recent, you know, misfortune with employment, I got a message from a girl in Hawaii who said, like, I've watched you from afar, she's a pastry chef out there. She's like, I wish I stood up in the kitchens, I do. And I'm like, you know, just take every opportunity as another chance to, you know, stand up for yourself, because I mean, no one's gonna fight harder for you than yourself.

I think a lot of I don't know, you want to be called like an emerging voice. But you know, I kind of see these people. Now the people I'm really interested in following on social media and interacting with, they seem to be a new generation of chefs. It's not necessarily like the celebrity chef. I mean, people still follow them. But there's so many great people who are saying these things and standing up and being an activist and building communities, I think it's really great that you can kind of be a voice for people around the country in the world and kind of, you know, show through your leadership and what you've gone through, you can maybe help them with some of their challenges.

Oh, for sure. I've talked to lots of people and I've been in abusive situations. And like, you're, I'm arming them, like, Here, you have evidence, these are the people you need to talk to, these are the labor laws, you can, you know, refer to because they don't have a leg to stand on. Because I hate to say most ownership doesn't know the ins and outs of labor laws. So I definitely tell people to know those and to look them over at some point. I don't want everybody to think every kitchen is toxic, but it's definitely good to know those kind of things and know your rights as an employee. And also, the biggest thing I advocate for is as soon as something doesn't feel right, start documenting, like anything, like making notes, like keep a you know, notes, document open in your iPhone or whatever, but like start documenting, that's the best thing you do. You think your tips are getting skin, start taking your you know, punch outs like document and you know, your finances like you know exactly in a book, like the better the more information you have, the better by case you have. So I definitely like empowering people I've been like, I feel hopeless, you know, because they had an abusive chef or you know, a sexually abusive chef or anything like that. Like, they're they don't need to be a victim anymore.

So you started your own pastry business recently or announced it? So why now did all this stuff kind of lead into it? What was the reasoning as to why now is the right time to jump into that?

It's one of those things where like, you know, as people have learned over the years, I'm a very verbose person, and my best friend put it best to me the other day, she was like, you're not going to be happy until you work for yourself. And I've been in cahoots with one of my friends, who's my business partner. And like, right before all this went down, we were literally looking at real estate to open up a cafe concept. And like, as soon as March hit, like, we knew, like, shit was gonna hit the fan, and he has other restaurants keep live, and I'm like, I'm gonna be fine. I always tell people that, like, I'm gonna be fine. Like, you focus on you, I'm good. So he's currently dealing with that. And so my logic was, if I can't have a brick and mortar right now, which sounds like a nightmare, that I'm gonna build it from the back end, I'm gonna do pop ups, I'm gonna, you know, talk to friends, see what I can use for spaces, start building my name, and a following. So once I do open a brick and mortar, that I'm gonna have people ready, they're gonna know the brand. It's not like, oh, a new bakery, they're gonna be like, Oh, my God, we've been waiting for this, like, I rather have that kind of hype. come towards and build that kind of community through it. So it's, it, I have to say it's a little lower risk too. Because hypothetically, like, let's say, I do these pop ups and like, I fall flat on my face and whatever, I could still get a job somewhere. So it's not like, you know, if my business fails, as in like my brick and mortar, I have to close it and deal with that whole, you know, shebang. So it's definitely lower risk. But it also gets me to feel out and learn things like myself. So

I know you're just getting started. But do you have like the anxiety that it's not going to work out? And that you'll have to go back to working for someone? Are you too new to it to even start thinking about that yet? Because I I still deal with that. Coming up next month, I will have been doing my thing full time for four years. And I said to a lot of people, man, I could not go back to working for someone. And there's days where it's just like, even though I'm successful, you're like, ah, like, Am I gonna be able to sustain this like until I die?

I actually don't have that worry. I it's not like out of arrogance or anything. It's just like, I know, I pride myself on my product. And I know that I do good things and I know that I treat my following and if you want to call them fans are foodies and guests with such love and compassion and You know, that's kind of like what the industry taught me is to care about people in general. So because I've shown that people have like a certain loyalty to me, so I feel that I was able to cultivate that kind of culture that I feel supported. So I'm not like really too worried about it.

Well, that's awesome. And you mentioned pop ups a little bit. Did you have one this past weekend?

I did, I had to pivot because my initial venue have backed out the last minute through disorganization. You know, how restaurants are, that I had product. And I was like, I don't know what to do with this. And my friend Irene, who owns maybe a restaurant in Boston, she's amazing. Her sister and her brother has a restaurant in Boston, too. They're just amazing family. And she just like scooped me up. And she was just like, you can do like they're doing like pickup kids for their dinner. And she's like, you can have pickup kits for your doughnuts, as long as you have like boxes and stuff. And I will just set it up on toast and people can order them ahead of time. And like, you know, once they're out, they're out. And once again, like seeing the community and seeing friends come through and be like, you know, we got you and that it's it's been such a loving experience for all the people when I announced my endeavor, that we're like, we want to host you, you know, we'd love your product, we want to collaborate with you, it it's a good feeling. It makes me realize that, you know, I'm not on my own. And, you know, even if I've been through toxic work situations, even like my last one, you know, as crappy as those people are, I have plenty of people that are loving and caring and want a better future for the restaurant industry.

Your desserts always look amazing, you have such a sense of I guess whimsy and like nostalgia with nods to pop culture, like where's your culinary inspiration coming from?

Um, I you know, it when you're talking about, like, you know, working through restaurants and like that history of things. You know, I grew up in a southern family, my dad's from Louisiana, and a lot of our family's from the south. And like, the other half is like my mom's from Bangor, Maine. But uh, I grew up in a family where everybody cooked, you know, as soon as you could reach the counter you're helping. And, you know, I didn't go to color a school. So I learned through my family through a lot of the women. And, you know, I just always had amazing memories attached to pastry. Like, during Christmas time, my grandmother, like whether she was expecting guests or not, she would have glass jars all around the living room of like, homemade candy. And she taught me how to make popcorn balls. And like, around certain holidays, like certain dishes were like, you know, super important in our house. And, you know, I, you know, I learned how to make sugar cookies. And like, also learning that as a baker showing up to a party with cookies, everybody's your best friend. And you know that just to see people their reaction like Yes, a great steak, people will roll their eyes back in their head be like, Oh my god, this is amazing. But you get to watch people with pastry turned into children. And that's my favorite, especially if you give them nostalgic flavors that remind them of their childhood and you just see them like a grown adult. Just turn into a child and you can just see that in their face. Like oh my god, like it is just so nostalgic. And that's what I've always attached to pastry, and that's why I love doing it. It's so much

easier to bring that stuff is like a gift. like it'd be really random and weird for me to go to my friend's house and bring a steak or bring a plate of shrimp and grits right but like you can bring brownies and cookies and I am the desserts like that.

I like I always show up to bars. Like if I get off work early. Like I'll show up in a bar with like, you know, leftover like cake scraps, you know, no, no bartender will ever complain about that. And you know, cookies and stuff. I always like my I tell people jokingly My Love Languages food, like I always need to feed people. But I get that from my family as well. My mom's the one who's like shoving leftovers in your hand as you're walking out. After you had two full plates of her food. She's like, you need something to take off. No, like I have that mentality to my grandmother used to be a homeroom teacher. And the thing I remember Actually, she was my great grandmother, she would make donuts. She lived on the cape. And like if she heard that we were coming to the cave, she'd make donuts. And man if we didn't stop at her, I was like, every once in a while, we would pass her house and like go right to like my grandmother's house and then she'd hear and she'd be like,

I got up and I made doughnuts and you didn't come you at least need

to come with dairy you

need to come and take somebody on they're not gonna be as good because they're not fresh out of the fryer. But that's like one of those distinct memories I have. I didn't ever get to cook with her because she passed away 100 years old. But I was like six or something.

We're starting to find out that stuff. Like I found out my great grandmother who I didn't get to meet. Maybe she like I got a bunch of her cookbooks with like, and same thing with my grandmother, who passed away too. I have a lot of the old cookbooks with like the little handwriting, like in the margins and everything, which I love. But we also found out my great grandmother was a lush, apparently my aunt has a bunch of cocktail books that for hosting parties. I was like, Man, this woman after my own heart.

Yeah, they knew how to throw down back then. Right? They might not have a lot going on just dinner parties and booze. So it seems like there's so many people starting these small pastry businesses like is there a fear of oversaturation? How are you going to make yourself stand out what makes your products different or do you not even think about that, like you're just gonna do you And people are gonna love it or they're not.

I kind of like do my own thing. I'm always like, what I pride myself on is my flavor profiles. Like I don't give people the basic like there's plenty of people that are going to do like, since the beginning of COVID. I've been doing like cakes non stop, that business has never stopped. I've always done cakes on the side. And like it just kind of flourished because people are like, oh, like this bakery is not taking any more orders, we need you to make a cake. So I'm getting anywhere from like two to eight cakes a week. But you know, there's the basic places you can go like the grocery store, whatever it can give you like the vanilla, the chocolate, I have friends that have their own businesses, but I definitely pride myself on tailoring my desserts to people especially if I do like wedding cakes and stuff. Like I ask people questions that they're, you know, not used to being asked. It's not like here are my five flavors and like my three flavors of buttercream I'm like looking at the bride and groom going. So what dessert Do you guys like to share? like Dude, what did you have on your first date? Like what's something very important to you guys? Are you big beer people? Are you like these kind of questions like did you pick Jimmy apple picking or whatever, like that kind of stuff like really make it for them. Because also like working in restaurants and like serving and stuff and I did events serving is I lovingly call them fallen soldiers is the cake. slices are just left on tables because people had a bite and they're like, This isn't good. And just like left it. I'm like, I never want to be that person. I never want to create a product that was there for show and people forgot about I want people being like that wedding cake was so good. Who the hell was that? So it's, I pride myself my custom work, fun flavors, whimsical. And my art background comes you know in from my doughnuts I do very artistically with different textures and, you know, levels of architecture, I guess you call it where it's not like a flat doughnut and like a glaze. I like stuff on it. And same thing with my cakes. Like, you know, people come to me for that kind of stuff.

You know, we have a pastry chef in Frederick here. Her name is Shelly and she has a business called rebels kitchen. She's actually one of my favorite people. She actually comes and acts as like my sous chef on a lot of gigs When I need help. But she is the same way she thinks outside the box. Like I just got a bunch of pawpaws Do you know pawpaws the fruit? I think so. It's like a native fruit to Well, a lot of the eastern coast but we have them here in Maryland and they're kind of like a tropical fruit. And they're really ripe. So it's like the size of a mango but tastes kind of like a banana and a strawberry. You know, we just like brainstorm and her brain goes places like she's like, what if you did like a call it like a fall tiramisu. And like you curated up with a marscapone. You know, like, that's just not like a regular thing people do. And her mind is like, yeah, like just mix the Papa and with that and call it that. And she made like some savory pot pie macaroni, like just. And I find that really interesting because I don't want like the same chocolate cupcake like chocolate cupcakes delicious. But

like the same profiles over and over again, like you could do that. But it's also fun to give it into different contexts is like my favorite thing is if I'm like looking at how to do something like special, I'm doing like my compose desserts. And like certain components, and I google it and you can't find anything. I'm like, cool, this is uncharted territory, and I get super excited. So then that's like a learning experience for me. Because if it hasn't been done, it's because you need to stabilize something or the ratios or figure this out. And like, I love the whole testing aspect of things and trying to figure stuff out so and then I start creating signature items for myself, which is pretty cool.

Yeah, I don't have a lot of those. But that's why I was so bent when I had one recipe that you couldn't find anywhere on the internet. And then some big company, took that recipe from my website, put it on theirs, and then ended up in a book and like i subtweet these people at least once a year, including the author of the book, since she didn't do her due diligence to find out that this company didn't create it. So like if you Google for this recipe, there's only two,

please get me because I will be like, Hey, girl,

yeah, you know, but you let that go. It's like five years down the road, something I was gonna monetize. I just wish they would have said like, Hey, this is really cool. Can we post this on our website instead of just like changing one thing from a quarter cup to a third of a cup and then calling it their own? But you know, that's gonna happen.

It's like frustrating, especially when like, you look at that stuff. And like, you know, it's an intellectual property. But I've looked at places where I've had stuff that's so unique to me that I've looked into the face and be like, if I see this on a menu, I'm going to rain, how like, Don't touch my stuff. And when it comes to recipes, like I've passed on recipes to people, but I also approach pastry, like a savory chef. I don't mean I cook on the regular and I've worked through regular kitchens being a sous chef and like I know how to cook. Surprisingly, a lot of people assume all specialty chefs only play with sugar. But, I mean, like little things that a lot of pastry chefs don't know like, yes, you can follow things exactly. But let's say the strawberries you got for whatever cake you're doing or not right like how do you just this or like they're too sweet, like, you know, put a little vinegar and like that kind of stuff and like salting stuff to taste like I you know if a recipe calls for like a teaspoon, like I'll taste it after and be like isn't enough Is it too much like so many people just follow and go down. So it's like that kind of finesse which a lot of chefs don't have. They're very mechanical. Like my last two sous chefs were extremely sloppy rush stuff like didn't take caramel far enough, you know, overbaked stuff or like overwork stuff and like there just wasn't the finesse and still isn't there because they don't understand. Like, taking your time and what you're looking for, like I love when I, you know, walk people through certain recipes, especially during the pandemic. It's been fun. I've given birth to lots of sourdough babies, inadvertently, which is very fun. But, you know, people are like, How do I know it's ready? I'm like, well, especially with sourdough, I was like, what does it smell like? What does it look like? Like that kind of stuff? And they're like, Oh, dude, no, I'm like, yeah, it's not like, Oh, you know, day or two, it's gonna be fun. And you start the process. It's like, it's everybody's house environments, different. The bacteria in the air is different stuff that people don't think about. Whereas like, I'm a nerd. And like, I think about everything.

I'm a big note taker. So I have my notebook about, you know, like, what temperature was the water for this and everything. But even with something like bread, there's so many variables, like, Where are you located? And what's going on in the environment today? And what's the ambient temp of your kitchen at home? You know, so, yeah, so have to be able to kind of look at those things and realize that this recipe isn't necessarily a hardened recipe.

Yeah, and so many people just don't understand that, as I said, like, during pandemic herbs, like cooking and stuff, and they're like, I've never cooked at home before. I'm like, Oh, dear God, like, I don't know how to fix that conversation. But you know, it's definitely been amusing. And I've also learned, you know, working in kitchens to really exercise being patient with people, because like, my automatic thing is like, you could yell at these people and be like, you know, what the fuck, like, sorry, that's fine. You can curse on the show. Yes, awesome. I swear like a sailor. My dad was a sailor, so. But you can yell these people and be like, what do you not know how to cook like, and like, freak out on but you never know where anybody's coming from. And like, you know, I'm learning like, with my boyfriend, he came from a family that, you know, didn't really cook a lot. So I'm slowly teaching him like, just little tricks I know. And like he's cooking dinner, like in prepping stuffer, you know, when he goes to work, and he just loves it. But I'm just empowering people. And like, not talking to people, like they're stupid. I mean, there's some times I've accidentally done it, or, you know, people are just being blatantly stupid than Yes, you'll call that out. But, you know, seems like more or less gauging, like person to person like where they're at. I'm just like, oh, like, have you ever made this before? Like, you know, just trying to keep the conversation without getting frustrated? So

yeah, I'll put a recipe online, it's seemingly easy. And people always will talk about like how hard it is or something. It's like a four ingredient dish or something. I'm like, all the steps are right here. And it's, it seems so easy to me. But for them, they're scared, I cooked for a customer last night. And she had talked about the first time I had made something for her. She tried to recreate it and took her like four hours to make that one dish. I was like, I don't understand how that thing took you four hours. So from a business standpoint, can you do your business full time and be profitable? Is that something you've thought about? Like? Are you going to be able to? Again, it's early, but make cakes and desserts and still make what you're making as a cook or a chef in a restaurant? Is that something you've kind of looked at? And can you forecast at all I know, we talked a little bit about forecasting before the show, but

it was one of the things I actually got to feel through the pandemic is, you know, with having to be furloughed, and then eventually, like I made my employers let me go because the bullshit they pulled that I was much happier working for myself, and like calling my own shots. And you know, I got to see like, you know, learning myself, it's like most of my business I've gotten for cakes and stuff has been word of mouth only. Like I've and because I've been so busy with that, that I haven't had time to like, start a website, which I'm going to do, I promise, want to have done. But I haven't even done like that kind of promotion, which is crazy to think so if I actually took that step and did it, where is it going to be and like I'm making more than I was working full time working 60 hours a week at this job that I hate it. You know, I'm more happy like being open. Like it's sustainable. It just has done so much for my mental health.

That's amazing. I just have seen all these people who are kind of doing it on the side, and they need to work part time at a restaurant or they have a full time job. Like they're an accountant and they do it on the side. But if they had to quit that accounting job, there's no way they could like pay their mortgage and support their family with what they're making. And I think that's the difference is you see like the people who are doing it professionally, like I'm a personal chef full time, like, I charge what I charge because I have to like that's what I know worth and what I can get and what I need, but you get undercut a little bit like I'm sure there's Sally in Boston who's making cupcakes at our house and they're going to be less expensive than yours, but she doesn't have the experience or the skill set or whatever. But some people are very price sensitive. Oh, but those people might not be your customers.

And that's another thing like I mean, I have no problem being I mean, I guess an asshole But, you know, I get Karen from Quinsey, who's like, well, I don't know, like this girl targeted. That's my friend. I'm like, cool. I don't need your business. Like, you're gonna be a trouble like person anyways, like, I don't need you. And I've like discontinued conversations. Whereas like, especially with the world of Pinterest, it's a nightmare for pastry shops where you get people like, look at my pinboard. And this is why I want the cake to look like. And sometimes it's helpful. Like, sometimes I get clients that like, basically like, Look, I'm getting married in like, a month, and I'm like, cool, what are you looking for in the room? And I'm like, this doesn't help at all. But then you get the crazy ones who are like, I need to look exactly like this. But be like, I had a woman recently, I had to basically tell to, you know, shove it was she wanted 250 cake pops. And I was like, yeah, you know, I'll charge like, you know, $3 apiece for these. And she's like, Oh, no, I need to do this all for $200. I was like, so each cake pop is gonna be less than $1. I'm like, no. And she's like, What do you mean? I'm like, no, sorry, you can go to any bakery and go to any other person. Like, I mean, if you want a science project, we can teach yourself to do this, but I'm not working for that level. It's just like, well, what am I gonna do? And I'm like, I don't know. And I don't care, honestly, like, it's not my problem.

Yeah, I've talked about this with some other personal chef friends, the thing we're seeing on our end, is all these people having micro weddings, which I love. I'm super appreciated. I love it. But these are people who traditionally would get a caterer like, I'm not a caterer like I don't. I hate tablescapes. Like, I'm not the guy to make a swan napkin. And I don't have all these linens and have all these things. And you talked about, you know, like Pinterest boards. I'm getting customers saying like, here's my Pinterest board, my vision board of like, my colors, and my whatever. And what can you work? It's like, Listen, I want you to tell me what you like for food and don't like, and I'm going to build something cool. But I'm not the guy like people are like, I want to see pictures of your China. Can you show me? And they're like, Yeah, but that's something new that I'm dealing with now that I'm not used to and like, how much do I want to go down that road? It's paying the bills, and it's really good. But like having that conversation that you're going to have to do that part on your own. Like, I can set your table if you have some stuff. Here's what I have for China, but I'm not wanting to go down the road of like rentals. I don't have like front of the house people who are gonna wear tuxes and bow ties. Like that's not what I do. That's like a caterer. But yeah, caterers aren't really doing a lot of those, like 10 person wedding receptions. So now I find myself in the spot where like, I'm trying to walk that line when I'm dealing with like mother of the bride, and addressing kind of that front of the house thing that is not really what I want to do. Like I want to throw a fun dinner party and make some really awesome food and have a good time. And like not have it be as formal. But the idea now of like the wedding being still a formal thing, even though it's in your house. Hmm, it's interesting.

It's definitely interesting. I'm like, I've been fortunate enough for a lot of the people that are referred to me or that have been repeat customers or people that worked in the industry, or they're friends of people that worked in the industry. So they they have like that mentality. They know when they're coming to me like what they're gonna get. and nine times out of 10 people are like, give me loose parameters. And they're like, we just want you to be creative. We want to see what you come up with. And like people are just thrilled with the outcome. I mean, I also have like, as I said, the Karen from Quinsey, I had one I did a kid's birthday cake recently, and like, it's just so funny to see people, like, you know, what backgrounds they come from, and as I said, like, trying not to get frustrated, but you know, it's like, she wanted like, the immediate, like, I'm doing cakes, and I'm like, I'm, I have a life as a person. And, you know, she wants like this immediate email response. And like, you know, she will ask questions I already answered and like, when you have to be like, Oh, see above, like, that's always fun. And then, you know, just not understanding certain things like, when I've already given the information, but they're so used to work in like an office job or a desk job. And they're like, you know, trying to be formal in their emails. And I'm like, I answered everything above, like, we're good. Stop emailing me get out of my hair expecting

you have an admin person. Because again, like I do everything for my business, and exactly what you're saying is like, I'm prepping today for an event tomorrow, and I'm not tied to my phone. And people will like email. And if they don't hear from me in like an hour, then they like will text me and it is about their event in December, you know, because they have a question or something and they want like that immediate kind of response. And, you know, you can spell it out and if they don't hear from you in a week, after you've answered like, I'll say, Okay, I think we're all set. We've got the menu. Here's this, I'll touch base a couple days before and in a week, and you haven't communicated for no reason. They'll say, like, Are we still good for the event? It's like, yep, we're gonna Yeah, I got your date on the calendar and I've got everything I need. I'll talk to you like two days before.

Or like I you know, I've been open about like, mental health and stuff and I suffer from anxiety and depression and like, you know, through all this and like, not knowing the certainty of my job, like, for me, it's like, I wasn't gonna go back to my last job. Like, I couldn't stand my employer anymore. But uh, you know, you want the opportunity to you want to be offered it because you want things on your own terms. But, you know, going through that at the same time, while you know, wondering like, what my My personal next step was going to be that, you know, I'll look at my phone, but then I have people, you know, text me asked me, you know, this kind of stuff. And for me that is such an emotional and mental labor, sometimes to talk to people, even my friends, and they understand that, like, I'll get back to him after like, a couple days later, I'm like, sorry, I was like, you know, in the trenches of my own failings, and you know, not feeling great. And I just wasn't in the right headspace to chat with you, like I knew, in what window of time I need to get back to you. And like, what my leeway was, but like, if it didn't require immediate response, I was gonna get to it later. And that's one thing I kind of want to normalize is people understanding that, like, it's not like this, like if we can take one big thing from the pandemic, is we need to slow down, like everybody, and like, you know, I've taken so much time to slow down, it's been nice. As much as I'm a stubborn workaholic, it's been nice to get to stuff I've been putting off and like, taking care of myself. And, you know, if I do need a day of rest, and like, I just get up, and you know, Feed my cats and water my plants. And then I'm on the couch, and I fall asleep for a couple hours because like, I let my body kind of dictate what I need. But then I'll have a day like the following day where I'm super productive, like from, you know, as soon as the sun comes up till you know, two o'clock in the morning, like, so. It's been a fun sliding scale.

Yeah, I've had a couple days where I've slept in just because like, you just need it, you have to listen to your body. And I think we blow that off too often. And it's just like, if you're in bed and your alarm goes off, you don't actually have to be somewhere like if you're feeling tired, maybe you should sleep a little more.

Yeah, it's like getting over that, like it goes hand in hand with like, the whole toxic culture thing is, you know, the grind culture needs to die. Like I get working hard. And like I want people to still be hard workers. But that doesn't mean sacrificing your own health, or your own mental health, your own physical health. Like it doesn't need to be that anymore. If you don't answer your phone on your day off, like it's okay, it's your day off if you don't come in for that six shift because your chef is an idiot and didn't schedule somebody like it's not on you. Like, we need to start normalizing that conversation too. And we

talked a lot about toxic environments, and not good people who are some of the underrated bad gases in the food and beverage scene that you want to call out, like who are some people that aren't getting the attention who you think are awesome.

I mean, definitely the people that are kind of like in the shadows, but are very aware of things. I was fortunate enough. When I was 30. Under 30. I was working under Josh Lewin, who owns a couple businesses here, he owns Juliet, and peregrin in Boston. And he's just like a brother to me. And you know, definitely working with him. He gave me the brotherly love I needed. He was never horrible to me, but he, you know, pushed me for sure. And I learned a lot about myself, and I'm better because of that. And, you know, he's great to his staff. He's great to people, like, you know, I he doesn't have a bad bone in his body. And it's nice to see people doing it the right way. I definitely scream His praises for sure down here. You know, definitely my friends that may may what they're doing is that they're fighting the good fight. I have so much faith and you know, Irene, just what she's doing is like having these bigger conversations, especially with, you know, I want to call it people being more woke, but people are just being more educated and smarter about things and open up dialogues and not being afraid of it. My last place of business like you know, when the Black Lives Matter, you know, movement came to a head. They were so afraid to say anything, because on the North Shore where I was, it's an extremely like close minded racist area, like hands down racist. Like if you look at some of the forums and stuff like the stuff people say, it's like horrific to see people think that way. So my last place business thought they could say anything, because they would offend clientele. I'm like, I rather offend clientele. I'm sorry. Like, you know, if my brothers and sisters and, you know, fellow co workers and people in the community, like don't feel safe, you know, having like, all these biased and you know, prejudice against them, like that's not okay, and I will fight for them. And we'll be vocal about that, because those conversations need to happen. And I read her sister, like, talk about these things so much, and it's awesome. You know, even we saw it the other day with Columbus Day like talking about indigenous people and like, the weirdness with that kind of stuff. And it's just nice to see these conversations get blown up and like having them even if people are gonna come at you and be like, Well, I'm not gonna, you know, patient you anymore, because, you know, Black Lives Matters a terrorist movement. That's fine. I'd rather lose those people. Like they're not keeping my lights on the actual good people that support me do.

I don't know, either of them, but I follow them. And Josh seems really cool. I remember I backed one of his places on Kickstarter at this point, probably about seven years ago, and he sent like the really coolest gift set with like tea and spices. It's a really cool stuff and I would love to check them out. I don't get up to Boston as much as I used to. And maymay seems like they're always doing cool stuff. So they're definitely on the list for next time I get up there whenever that is.

And also like where I am in Quincy, it's nice to see like, one of my favorite groups I talked about as a group I came through was Townsend. They it's open by Devin Adams and Palmer Matthews to alumni of Barbara Lynch and used to work at drink the, you know, famous cocktail bar here, and they went on to open a place in Quincy and Quincy on on the south shore. It's definitely like working class. And used to be pretty aggressive down here, like as far as like crime and stuff. But now it's like, blue collar folk, like just normal people. And to see them see this market have so much potential, like back in the day, what Cambridge and Somerville were, like, you know, these areas where, you know, some people live, but now it's like hotspots, like, you know, restaurants, you know, neighborhoods and like, you know, even roslindale jP, like, places like that in Boston, like, you know, on the outskirts, like the greater Boston area, quote, unquote, East Boston, like around the airport is starting to get awesome restaurants, which is great. On top of like, they're already awesome ones there that people didn't know about. But just seeing people like them, look into these neighborhoods and see the potential. And, you know, they're like, definitely exception to the rule where they work for people like Barbara Lynch and these toxic work environments, and they have flipped the script on it, where they want to have healthy work environments, and like, treat their staff well. And like, you know, they were there for me when I left my super toxic job that I, you know, told you in great detail about, and Devin just took me in and was just like, you know, we got you like, he helped me with financial stuff, like, it was just nice to see that, you know, even in my like, you know, darkest hour, like I had people there for me, and that they want to do good things for the community as well as take care of their staff, because we've all been through those kitchens and those bar programs, and it's just nice to see people wanting to do good.

And hopefully, we'll see more of that. I'm optimistic things are changing a little bit, probably not as fast as they could or should, but uh, getting there, they're a

little bit and there's a lot of performative behavior right now, like the biggest one we saw, and I have no problem calling shit out top a bakery here. I'm not a huge fan of the owner. She like just seeing people make excuses. Because like, I get that, you know, she has an Israeli, she, you know, saw, like an untapped market and like, Did her thing, open her thing? That's fine. I love that. I love that she made a name for herself. But the fact that you know, once again, when the Black Lives Matter came to a head that, you know, employees were coming forward about how prejudiced she was, and like, you know, business practices, and how terrible it was working for her. And, you know, in the worst place you can get in a fight on his Twitter, seeing people like being like, well, she did this. So therefore, it's like, we've tried to justify the abuse. And I'm just like, no, like, I don't care if she won the Nobel Peace Prize, like she's the next Mother Teresa. If she's treating her employees like shit. No, like, you don't get a pass? Yeah, like, no, but nobody's getting nobody should get passed anymore like that, like, in the sense that she doesn't see the wrong, there was no formal apology made to the staff, there was no, you know, discussion of resolution, it was just she stepped back, and she still has, she's still gonna profit off, they just opened one in DC, she's still gonna profit off it, she's gonna be fine. But her employees are not getting the Justice they deserve. And I hate seeing that. And that's why I'm encouraging people like to keep the conversation going to keep talking about this to not support them to call up bullshit. Like, it just needs to keep being a constant thing, because these people are going to do what they have to do to sweep it under the rug. And to treat other humans like that. As I said, it's just not okay.

Yeah. And I do think people don't know, especially the general public, like, I think it's hard enough as a industry professional to stay on top of that, but like, you know, like, my in laws have no idea, you know, who the terrible restaurant tour is in town, they're just going to go to a place and it's like, how do you get the word out to like, stop spending money at places like that, you know, it's,

I mean, they're always gonna have people but to know that my money is not going to go there. And my friends might, he's not gonna go there. And like, that makes me feel good. But one thing I also do, and like, you know, as I said, I've always kind of had a more polarizing approach to things just because we haven't seen change at all, that you need to be more aggressive about it. We're coming

up to the end of the hour. Is there anything that you feel like we haven't gotten into that you even want to touch on? Or what what should people know? What are some parting words, I guess?

Um, oh, no, I just I basically right now. Just the importance of how the industry needs to evolve, and it's already starting, like, it's just a small start right now. But to just keep that conversation going, like, I'm not going to stop, you know, advocating for staff advocating for, you know, healthier work environments, better working environments, you know, calling up behavior when it's bad, you know, reminding people That it's not them, like nine times out of 10. It's not them. It's a chef or, you know, wherever the abuser is, it's their baggage that they need to unpack. But that's also another thing is like, normalizing going to therapy, you know, normalize talking to other people on saying that you're not okay. It's okay to say you're not okay. Or if you're in a bad place, you know, it doesn't need to be this like machismo like, Oh, I'm such about us. And like, God forbid, if I said, I'm having a bad day, like, you know, moustache go take less of me, I'm like, I don't care. I wear my heart on my sleeve. And I let my staff know, like, Hey, I had a rough morning, or I got a phone call from a relative or whatever. I'm like, I might not be in the right mind space. So if I seem a little off, that's why like, I always over communicate on everything, whether it's on social media, or to my staff, or to friends, like, I feel over communication is the best because there's so many times where there was a lack of communication.

No, I can totally see that and seeing how you interact on Facebook and social media with people and being quite open with how you are. I mean, I would expect nothing less than that in person from you. Yeah. Well, thanks so much for coming on the show. This

has been great. Appreciate it. Thank you for letting me rant.

Yeah, no, it's, it's awesome. And I love having these conversations. To all our listeners. This has been the chef's without restaurants podcast. As always, you can find us at Shuster that restaurants.com.org and on all social media platforms. Thanks so much, and have a great day.