Exploring Gullah Geechee Cuisine with Chef Amethyst Ganaway

Chris Spear: 0:00

Welcome to the Chefs Without Restaurants podcast. I'm your host Chris Spear. Today I'm excited to have on the show Amethyst Ganaway. She's worked in the food business for more than 10 years in both front of the house and back of the house. Besides being a chef, she also does some food writing, and you can find her work on her website Geechie Gordita, as well as in Food and Wine, and Eater. Welcome to the show Amethyst.

Amethyst Ganaway: 0:20

Hello.

Chris Spear: 0:22

Thanks so much for coming on. I'm glad we can catch up today.

Amethyst Ganaway: 0:25

Thank you for having me.

Chris Spear: 0:27

So I guess we can maybe just like jump right into it a little bit about you and your background. You're in New Mexico right now. Right?

Amethyst Ganaway: 0:34

Yes. In New Mexico and Albuquerque sabotage?

Chris Spear: 0:38

How's that out there? You like it?

Unknown: 0:40

Definitely. Um, I live by volcanoes on one side and I live on mountains on other side.

Chris Spear: 0:47

I didn't know there were volcanoes out there. I guess this is a little bit of a geography lesson for me today.

Unknown: 0:54

I live by the three sister volcanoes. And then right in the middle of the city is the real so really did just literally run through the middle and then directly on the opposite side, almost like a border. I guess Albuquerque is in a valley, I guess. Because Sandy and mountain range and it completely in circles, almost like half of the half of the town. But on my side of town is volcanoes. Like volcanic rock is like all in my neighborhood and stuff. It's wild as well.

Chris Spear: 1:24

So you're originally from North Charleston, South Carolina. Right? And you went? And you make the distinction about North Charleston versus like Charleston? Is there a reason for that? You know, not like the the downtown Charleston?

Unknown: 1:38

Definitely I try to make that distinction. Because when most people hear Charleston, that's immediately what they think of is downtown. You know, cobblestone streets, the battery rainbow row,

Chris Spear: 1:49

bro, horse.

Unknown: 1:51

Yeah, you know, horse drawn carriages. And I mean, I'm, I'm from North Charleston, I'm from literally, you know, 1015 minutes up the road from that. And it's like, on one hand, it gets kind of left out of the conversation, but then at the same time, is being completely all of the gentrification from downtown and people who can't afford to live downtown. Now is coming up into North Charleston is getting completely, completely rebuilt, right? And I don't know, I guess I just want to kind of stick to that.

Chris Spear: 2:22

So can you not afford to live? Like, are you starting to see that, that push up there? Like the people who traditionally live up there, they're not able to live there anymore. So when did those people go then? Like, do they have to keep pushing north or west and east?

Unknown: 2:36

Yep, pretty much they get, they get pushed from what from what most of I see, they get pushed a little bit further north. Like my grandma was born raised in North Charleston in projects. And, you know, has kind of started even like throughout my life, right has just moved further and further north. We've lived in different parts of Charleston, like West Ashley, stuff like that. But as far as North Charleston, she kind of started off in one place. And now she's like, all the way goose Creek, which is not even in North Charleston anymore, right. But goose Creek and Somerville Lassen growing up, that wasn't an area that was really built up. And now I go home. And like, that's the place to be right. Like, that's the place to go, especially as you don't have to deal with the downtown traffic and whatever else are the high prices. But most of those people I see now are starting to have to go to like, further north and go to like Columbia, or even further. So it's definitely interesting to watch.

Chris Spear: 3:34

I love Charleston, I you know, we go down every year, my sister in law lives down there and just kind of saying, like, the restaurants when you get into like the era of like Edmonds post and stuff like they're not downtown, you know, they're pushing out all these areas that were kind of where how we see now you're seeing kind of like all these breweries, distilleries, restaurants pushing up out of the city, so I totally get that everything's moving a little further away. And it's the urban sprawl. I mean, you see it in every city, I live outside of both DC and Baltimore, and I'm like, an hour out of DC. And we're still considered like a suburb, you know, like, right, pushing on out, because it's so expensive to live in the city. So you went to school for pre med and theology, is that right? I did. Yeah. That seems like a very different road from working in the food industry. So can you help connect those dots a little bit?

Unknown: 4:21

So I guess, I guess a kind of weird thing about me is like, I've always known even since I was a kid that I've had a purpose and that my purpose in some way was to be with people and helping people. Right. So of course, when you're younger, like the first thing people say is, oh, be a doctor. Right? Because like, especially if you grown up poor, right? Like that's the quickest way that's the number one job, be a doctor, be a lawyer and make some money. Get up out of here, right? But I was okay, cool. I could I could also obviously be helping people. So even all throughout high school, I did medical research, like all of that and then into college. Still doing the same thing I worked doing Cancer Research up until like, literally my junior year of college. Um, and then Truthfully, I started failing, like, higher level chemistry. And I was just like, I was like, I have no did, I didn't like it, right, like I like working with but what I realized I like working with my hands, I used to do, like surgery actually on like, rodents and rabbits and stuff like that, like, it's really kind of terrible. Um, but I realized I like working with my hands. But I hated working in a lab, you know, in a sterile environment or whatever. But at the same time, I was also working in restaurants, like I had to pay for college, pay for my apartment, whatever else. So that was, you know, the only job I really could get. So I ended up going into theology, because again, I still knew that I wanted to do something that directly involve me having to work with people. And I like culture. And I like anthropology. And I like learning all little bits of pieces that make, you know, up everything and who people are. But honestly, truthfully, like, I wanted to go back to school for for theology and be a teacher be professor. And like I said, I've been just working in restaurants. And I got, like, stuck, right, like, not stuck in a bad way where it was just like, Oh, this is the only option I have, but like, Oh, snap, like, this is what I really, really, really like doing. Right? And I make pretty good money, right? Especially if you know, when you're 20 that's good money, right?

Chris Spear: 6:34

It's not doctor money, but it's pretty.

Unknown: 6:36

I was making decent money as a 20 year old and at this time, I was still a server. So I'm making bank in a college town, you know, hundreds of dollars a night school, and all I'm doing is serving plates. Great, you know, but then again, I just fell into it, and you started getting opportunities, and kind of forcing myself honestly into opportunities. Um, and it was just stuck with,

Chris Spear: 7:01

do you have to do you have to push for that? It seems like you don't always have the opportunities like how, how insistent were you on daring to your bosses and saying, like, this is something I want to do like nothing weird. And that to you, you had to go and get it.

Unknown: 7:15

I was very, I'm in just in general, right? I'm very much like a y type of person. Like, why are you doing that? You know? And then what does that outcome were like, you know, so for me, I I'm sure if any some reason if any of my old managers ever hear this, they'll definitely agree that it's like, you know, why are you doing that, right. But I also took a lot of initiative on my own. I'm like, naturally, very bossy. I kind of like to be I like to be in control. I like to be in the lead. I like to excel at whatever I'm doing. But I think that on top of me literally just constantly bugging my bosses like, Well, why are you having to sit? You know, this table here and you know, a to top here and not for top here, right? Like just first off? logistically, it made sense to me because I need to figure out how can I make more money, right? Like, how can I flip more tables? You know what I'm saying? But like, so that's kind of where it came into. But it's also it's like, well, if I'm going to ask, like, if I'm here, I'm going to ask I'm not going I don't have the money to go to culinary school. I don't have you know, I really don't even know at that time. Like what I wanted to do, right? Because I'm like, 21 Um, so I just asked questions, and I really was am still that person was okay, what are you doing? I don't mind coming in early and staying late. Right? I don't want to, I will do whatever I have to to not do that. But I definitely want to know, the whole picture instead of just this one thing that I'm doing. So I think that kind of incessant need for myself personally, to just have answers to questions. And then like I say, just being an annoying employee to my managers was like, Well, if you're doing that, can I come home? Can I see what you know how you're talking to a table and why you're talking to the table? Just because I was just that type of person?

Chris Spear: 9:02

Are they were they receptive to that? or? Yeah, they they were so it wasn't killing man, stop, stop asking me questions. You know, it's kinda like with kids, like, sometimes you just want to say, like, do this. Yeah, I was like, because like, I don't have time to get into this, but like, were they were they good with you?

Unknown: 9:16

I think they were mostly good to me, honestly. Because nine times out of 10 they didn't have to rely on me for anything else. Right? Whether it be me picking up a table or you know, anything, right, like little things that I think otherwise annoyed, I'm coming from other people like Well, okay, well, I'm tired of having to tell Sarah Wah, you know, to bus Priebus or tables every time, right? Like, simple stuff like that. They didn't have to ask them because I just already did it. Um, so I think when I did have to come to them, you know, with other questions in a real hopefully realize I wasn't just acting like surface level. Um, but they were they were more, you know, willing to kind of work with me. I mean, I've been Definitely had some, um, definitely had some bosses who really weren't trying to hear that right. And that's cool. But I could I could I feel like I could like safely say like, at every single restaurant that I've been at, I've had at least one manager or boss or GM or, you know, trainer, whoever I could go to, that would would answer my questions with no problem.

Chris Spear: 10:23

On the flip side of that, as someone who's run kitchens, I find that most employees don't ask why enough, you know, like, I'd come by and say, why are you doing that? And you, you always hate that that's how I was taught or, you know, like, you see someone doing something over and over a certain way that seems ineffective. And like I always was trying to get them to question what they were doing, and not just be like a cog in the kitchen machine. Like, think about what you're doing and come to me like, like, when I'm the chef, and you're the line cook, you're, you're working the line every day, like you don't need me to tell you like, I'll guide you. But like, you should be looking at how the line is set up, not relying on a chef to tell you how to set the lineup like this is going to be your workflow. So what works for you, but so many people just come in, and they just like, well, that's how the guy trained me. And that's how it was done. And even if that guy's left, and it's not efficient for you, just staying in that rut, like, I want to tell all the young cooks out there, like you need to be questioning why all the time, and I think your bosses are gonna appreciate it.

Unknown: 11:21

Yeah. And if you if you don't have a boss, who does appreciate it, then you probably shouldn't be working there. Absolutely. Because that's your job, right? Especially as a chef, like, Yes, your team you teach, pass this on, right? And it's also going to make your job easier for you at the end of the day. But I've had people like that, who were just like, you know, why are you questioning me? They take it as like an attack on their authority when it's just like, I just want to know, why did you peel the ginger wood spoon like? Well, you know, I'm saying like, Why is that a more efficient way or a better way to peel ginger? Then using a knife or using a peeler? Right?

Chris Spear: 11:57

I think I think like, people see things as personal attacks, like any kind of critiques, it's really hard, you know, like, I've seen plenty of waitstaff, say to a cook like, you know, you do a pre pre service tasting or something. And they'd have a criticism and like the cook is very dismissive of them, because like they are not a chef, or they're not a cook. It's like, well, they're probably closer to your average customer. Right? Right. Like, why aren't you? Why aren't you listening to feedback from the dishwashers and the servers? Why don't you want to get better? And it's just like an ego thing. And not just big up chefs, I think just cooks in general. And people in general, I don't think it's just the food industry, I think it's hard to take a critique, like, especially when you there's something objective, it's not like, x plus y equals z is just, you know, it's a creative endeavor, you've made this dish. So there's room for personal interpretation, I think it's really hard sometimes to accept criticism, I think there needs to be more teaching of staff how to take critiques, and how to give critiques effectively. You know, that's what I like to say in kitchens. So how did you transition from front to back of the house.

Unknown: 13:05

So it was again, partly kind of me, like, honestly, getting bored with front of house. Um, and this is something I always tell new servers and cooks anybody in general or any, any feel that you have to work with other people. My very first GM that I really think was like, really, really impressionable on me, he told me sell the cheese. Right? And I think that what the cheese mean, like, like, literally to, like, you know, upsell, oh, yeah. Yeah, literally just know how to upsell but like, sell yourself, right? Like, and I'm really good at that I'm really good at going to a table and schmoozing. Because again, at the end of the day, that's how as a server, you're gonna make your money you have to be you have to be attentive to your guests need, right? You have to think before they can think about what they need. You have to know how to make something sound better, right? You have to learn your regulars. And this was maybe what they would like and what they wouldn't like, right. And I'm just really naturally kind of good at that. And not to like, to my own horn, but I am and it got boring. And it was because it's easy. It's something that's easy for me. So I started I was in corporate corporate restaurants. And I started doing Expo, they had like a so that was like kind of their assistant manager for Baca house. And then you had like kind of a service assistant position that was more like an assistant manager in front of house. So I was doing both of them at the same time. So I would do like one week of Backhouse when we could find a house and in two weeks of me serving, so if anybody ever hears that, that was not me trying to you know, skirt on my taxes or anything. But but kinda you know, right. But so, I was doing that and I had to learn how to like work Expo, how to go back there and help book prep. Um, and then it was kind of like a precursor into me going into corporate management. So you Even if you're going in for a front of house job, you have to learn how to do the basics for Backhouse, you got to learn how to count, you got to know how to do, you know, read a p&l, stuff like that. So when I went into management, it was like, I kind of already had that leg up. Um, and then, and then just like being passionate in general about cooking, right, like at home or for my friends, or for my grandma or whatever. So I think it kind of just like all aligned was like, not only am I being forced to have to go learn this, because it's part of the job description. But this is kind of where I rather be anyway, like, I was a server who would always I'm bringing a guy's online cups of water, you don't I'm saying you're like, I don't want to hear y'all talk here some water, you know, but I also too, as a server, who would get my food First, if something, you know, messed up. Like I was the coolest server I tried to be so hope but I was always also in the kitchen because like, it was fine. I can cut up in front of house, you know, I can only cut up when I walk into back doors. But I also had to learn how to like properly tip a steak and, you know, make sure plate presentation was good. So I think kind of just mean, like I said, having having to be forced into it, but also kind of just I liked it. I like being in the rambunctiousness of it. Um, so I started off like I said in front of house management. And just like no lie, it was my first probably first like two months of being like a legit manager or whatever, friend house manager. And I went to a new restaurant. And it was like the week of Thanksgiving in our km just did not come to work. Oh, nice. Just fit. So coming over. And this is at a corporate restaurant, right? We just didn't show up anymore. So I had already been asking my GM like, Yo, I want Okay, I'm spot you know, and it was like, Well, I guess today's you know, today so now here I am, you know, on, obviously some of the busiest started holiday season, right? We got prom, got all the stuff going up prom, but like winter formals and all that stuff going on holidays, and brand new manager. And now I'm doing front house and back of house. So I got like a really, really quick a crash course,

Chris Spear: 17:13

trial by fire right

Unknown: 17:14

fire by literal, literal trot. And it's sadly unfortunate. I try not to be that sort of like cooker chef to other people. But like sometimes you have to be because the only way they learn. And I'm kind of glad that that's how I learned was just like, you know, this is a restaurant that has two three monitors with tickets coming in at a time you got a 910 min line. We don't have a manager. And now my team is freaking out. So I have to come back here and I have to learn how to do to do it. Yeah, we had to do it with them. So yeah, I got a lot of trial by fire and just stuck with it.

Chris Spear: 17:48

I've seen that a lot. You know, I worked in contract food a lot. And when you work for those big companies, there's very few mentors, like it's it's very rare that you come in and they move you up. It's more like, oh, you're a sous chef at this place can be our executive chef and you just come in and like nobody teaches you how to be an executive chef. You know, I worked for Sodexo, and it was like, Oh, yeah, sure, come be our executive chef. And like, I remember my first day, at the last job I had, like, my boss came over and was like, Okay, here's your office, this is your sous chef. I'll be across the street if you need anything. And like literally left me there with these people I didn't know. And now I'm supposed to be their boss. And you know, like, it's really hard because that kind of sets you up for failure. Like your stat like, I'm a chef, I know how to be a chef, I know how to do things, but I don't know how to do things your way. Like I inherited this kitchen and all these people like, who's this guy who doesn't know how to make Maryland crab soup. It's like I'm not from here. I like my move down from somewhere else. Like I know how to be a chef but I need a recipe and I need your guidelines. And it's just really hard because you see that happening over and over where it's just like, Here you go, here's your office, here's your staff, call me if you like and that happens over and over and I don't think it sets people up for success. So definitely, you know, those are some of the things I always tried to be good about training my staff so that they were in a position to move up if an opportunity presented and they wanted to do that. Agreed. So Have you always been interested in food? I know you mentioned your grandmother like Are you someone who grew up like cooking with their grandmother and had that you know, that you hear all the time so you totally are one of those people who just always grew up with grandma cooking and her food

Unknown: 19:26

always always in the kitchen taken the meat out the pot for the greens before the greens are ready you know sneak in little pieces my grandma like well she makes anything that uses like an egg in it like boiled egg or something like that, like say a salad or something. I always get an extra egg put in the pot for just me you know, I mean like I was I was always always that kid. me most of I will say like my my grandma's immediate kids. Especially because a lot of times like like, like she is still you know so now if I go home like we eat we all eat dinner table together. You know what I mean? Like we're gonna have at least one meal. Today together we'll sit down at the table. I'm in a grown up in itself right grown up in Charleston, whereas like, everything we do has some sort of food if you go to your neighbor's house, they're gonna probably offer you something to drink. It's something to eat. You know, if you are celebrating life, you know, you're going to have food. Oh, crap, crap, seafood boils. You know, oyster roast, all that is just like, normal, right? Like being surrounded, and then being literally surrounded by food. Like I was talking to my grandma, buddy yesterday. I'm having pecan trees everywhere, right? are having citrus trees is growing right anywhere plums, pears, like, literally just growing that with an abundance of food at your fingertips. Right? You can be poor, it could be dirt board, and Charleston. And you can still eat?

Chris Spear: 20:55

Well, that's a good thing to know.

Unknown: 20:56

Yeah, definitely.

Chris Spear: 20:57

So is it different? What's I mean, I love the South. I love Charleston, there's such it seems like such a great food culture. What's it like where you are now? I know you didn't grow up where you are. But is there a food culture? And how does that kind of compared to the North Charleston area?

Unknown: 21:15

That definitely definitely a full culture here. And like I guess anywhere you go, right? You see like the kind of pride that people have in their in their food, especially like cultural food. For me, it's it's probably been the most dope to see indigenous food and indigenous people who have been here for literally forever, right? Like Pueblo Mexicans Pueblo people have never left. New Mexicans have never left here. So like, for me, that's wild rice. Like, you know, I can go wherever in the country eat frybread. Right, but like to have like, Pueblo fried. Yeah, that's crazy, right? And I guess especially coming from the south, where we don't see those kind of cultures we don't see even just like Mexican people, you don't really see other Hispanic Latino people in the deep, deep, deep south, right? Not maybe more. So now, but definitely not when I was growing up. So yeah, we had tacos or whatever, right? But like, not like when you come out here, and as somebody who's grandma even but you know, that same kind of familiarity, right? Like, this is clearly something that people have been doing for forever, and they know how to do really, really, really, really good. Um, and then it's a different kind of food culture to because Albuquerque in particular is like, really, really heavily brew culture. Big, big, big craft beer culture out here. So there's breweries like, everywhere, I want to say there's like at least 30 breweries just in Albuquerque. It's insane. Wow. So there is a kind of food culture kind of built around those. But it's weird because a lot of those breweries don't have kitchens. So they want to have like a bigger like food truck culture out here. But the city kind of makes that difficult. So but but I'm starting to see like, even me living out here for two years seeing seeing like this kind of, there's a lot of pop ups happening a lot more kind of food trucks edges go wherever, sometimes they just pop out in front of different breweries on different nights. So that's, that's definitely cool to see. Like I said, being able to get like fresh tortillas every day, you know, and it's something that you don't think about, you know, until you like, are trying to get here you be like you realize, like, Oh, snap, like there is a difference, right? Like there's a huge difference. Um, and then of course, Chilean culture, you got to have red a green chili. You can have both.

Chris Spear: 23:40

What are you a fan of to have you picked aside yet?

Unknown: 23:43

I honestly go for Christmas, I go for both. Um, but mainly, I'll go for green chili, mainly. But if I could have an option of having both on my plate, I'll take both because I feel like the red is a little bit more smoky in its own different kind of way. And but I mean, this is also a first place I've ever seen like pizza hut and McDonald's have green chili on their menu. But that's mind blowing. thing. I didn't notice a thing. Even on TV commercials. You'll see like McDonald's, you know, regular whatever Quarter Pounder right? is green chili burger. Wow. Wow,

Chris Spear: 24:19

I'm gonna have to look into that a little bit. There's so I mean, just something seemingly small like that, that I have no concept of existing? Yeah. Well, it's like I grew up in a small, medium sized city outside of Boston. But we had a large Portuguese and Brazilian population there, which was always normal to me. I mean, they really came because of fishing and stuff. But like they have linguists of sausage. Have you ever had language? So before?

Unknown: 24:43

I just tried. That's something that was like

Chris Spear: 24:46

normal to me. So you'd go to like a pizza shop that was like a Greek pizza shop, but they would put it on their pizza or you could get us up and when I left, I was like, you can't get linguistica pizza, you know, in Seattle, or you know, I've lived all these places and you just don't realize it you know, to me it was totally normal it half the stores in town, were not designed to run in English and it was just like what we ate. And I didn't know until I left and people and then people say to me like, you could get linguists on a pizza like yeah and it's dope

Unknown: 25:13

and it's good

Chris Spear: 25:15

at that again, you know? Yeah, so are there foods that you can't get like what do you really miss um, you know, seafood yeah being locked out there and not really having that kind of

Unknown: 25:25

there's nothing I mean like because you can we get stuff here yes ship from like the Gulf and then from like Pacific Northwest, but like that's still has to get shipped here. You know what I mean? Like doesn't get shipped here if it's any other sort of like sharp or anything like that There definitely been frozen beforehand. And I'm used to being able to get shrimp somebody just caught like 20 minutes ago, you know, or a

Chris Spear: 25:50

boat brought off the boat. They've crabs can you get crabs of any sort there

Unknown: 25:54

I so so you can get like Dungeness and like snow crab lay trikes they come frozen, but beginning of softshell crab season. I got a couple sounds like okay, well, I don't know where he's coming from. But I'm getting some crab. Man. I opened up the container rotten. Oh, already spoiled. And I'm just like, well, gray, like I spent, you know, $30 on two little tiny damn crabs, and I can't even eat them. Um, but even oysters, right? Like, oysters tastes different from Pacific Northwest than they do coming from briny South Carolina, marshy waters, like so. It's like a good stuff, but it's never the same. It's never never never the same. You know,

Chris Spear: 26:34

it's always gonna be best when you eat locally and eat seasonally. Like right now. Yeah, trying to get trying to get softshell crabs out there. probably not a good idea.

Unknown: 26:42

Not a good idea.

Chris Spear: 26:43

those cravings. I mean, there's things from my home that I want and it's just, it's never gonna be the same.

Unknown: 26:48

I can't get any fish to fry. So that like is a huge, a huge thing, right? Like so going to get some tilapia or some, you know, pre frozen catfish. And I'm like, No, I want a whole piece of grouper, a whole piece of wood and with the tail and the head still attached. And I want to be able to fry it, you know, like, but and then people out here don't who like, especially from here, right? Like they don't really like get it get it? Um, it's like it's a complete difference in how everything tastes right. And it's just like, I can't even kind of do that act that I do every Friday that I grew up with every Friday fry fish on Friday. I can't even do that. Right. It's not the same like I don't want fried Mahi Mahi. You know, yeah,

Chris Spear: 27:30

yeah, we got it. We have a great place here. And my father in law like Friday he always goes and gets like the fried fish platter like they only this place only does it on Friday. But that's his thing. And it's uh, you know, whatever they've gotten quite often it's like Whiting and he just like getting like beans and rice and fried fish and greens and sweet potatoes. And like, every we don't even we don't even bother like asking them what they want to do for dinner. Like, right? They're gonna go and it's a Jamaican place. It's called jerking jive, and they're on point. But like every Friday without a doubt, that's what he wants for dinner. And, you know, that sounds like a pretty good tradition to me. So we partake as much as we can. So now I guess, so many people, I guess, know of you through food writing. I think you know, you and I connected through Twitter, which I'm sure a lot of your people in your community now probably found you through Twitter. When you say like it. Yeah, it seems like I don't know, I had no idea who you were. And then like, one day, we're somehow following each other or whatever. But just kind of like, I love what you're always sharing and talking about. But now. I mean, you've had articles in eater and food and wine and how did all that come about? Eating, just just tweeting and just tweeting until enough people see that. And

Unknown: 28:41

I don't know, I guess like, because I had actually taken like a hiatus from tape from Twitter for like, three, four years. I wasn't even on Twitter until like, maybe, maybe a year before last I came back. And even last year, I was really, really not on it as much. Um, but yeah, so you know, at the beginning of the year, we had COVID started, and we had George Floyd's death, right, and all of the protests and stuff that came from that. And then truthfully, at least with these current opportunities, um, I really got tired of white people talking about issues, even pertaining to food that they didn't know about, right? Or like trying to be a part of this conversation without having black and brown people in that conversation. Or, like, you know, everyone's like, Oh, well, food isn't political. And I'm like, Well, actually, you know, like, what a privilege to be able to say that. It's not when in every facet of its existence, it is political. Right, but like, especially when you want to talk about black people in protest, okay, let's talk about it. If somebody wants to pay me to write about it, I Whoa. And I said that and somebody is like, okay, hey, we want to pay you to write about it. So Well, there you go. That's

Chris Spear: 29:53

a good way to jump in it. So you you know there's a lot of conversations people say like, I shouldn't have to Educate white people about this and that, like, Where's your stance on that? Because it seems like you, you're, you're writing about and talking about a lot of these topics. So it seems like you do want to get a point out there. I mean, I'm sure it's annoying if people are always like, dming, you saying, like, Can you explain this to me? Anytime you don't want it, and you don't want to do that, but that seemed like you're, you know, you enjoy sharing the stories and kind of putting knowledge out there as best you can.

Unknown: 30:25

Definitely so so a lot of the stuff that I do, like, even randomly talk about, right? Honestly, it's not for anyone in particular, a lot of time is just me just getting some tweets off, right, or

Chris Spear: 30:37

like thinking out loud,

Unknown: 30:39

thinking out loud, right, and forgetting that bajillion people out there can see it. Um, but then to specifically to be completely honest, like, I don't write with white people specifically in mind. And I think that's important because, again, especially in our industry, where a lot of people's voices get raised, right, like, Okay, well, then, if this is my opportunity to be a voice, or I'll be a voice and I want people like my grandma, you know, who, who look at people who work in food is like, still, you know, bottom with a tear to like, be able to see, like, you know, read this read what I'm talking about to see that it's just more than what you think this is right. And, and again, so even when even when I do write specifically for black people, like I'm writing for myself, I'm at the end of the day like this, again, this is just something that I feel needs to be addressed. And then people like it right? or hate it. Um, and, and I don't think that it is my responsibility to like, actively go out there and educate anyone in particular, but if you are being educated by what I said, and I think that point, I guess still stands, right, like,

Chris Spear: 31:53

there's so many things in the food role, it's hard for everyone to stay on top of any of them. So like, I would say, an example is I love grits. And I'm a, I've been a huge fan of kg boy mill, right? Like, they have so many kinds of great,

Unknown: 32:05

great, great, great, great grits.

Chris Spear: 32:07

And, you know, as someone who didn't grow up in the south, not really familiar with the term geechie. And what it means. I didn't give it any thought, you know, it's like just grits that I had readily available. And then, you know, I think probably even through you, when all of that kind of came about this summer in the conversation about who are the people behind this? Is that a term they should be using? I found it super interesting, and just really dove into it and just started reading more. And I'm appreciative of people kind of sharing that saying, like, maybe it is a great product, but like, we should also be talking about the people behind it and whether they can claim to use that that name. And they've since changed their name. I don't remember what they're calling themselves now

Unknown: 32:45

think Marshall, Marshall Mills, something like that. Yeah,

Chris Spear: 32:50

yeah. So the term Geechee, I don't think is one of those terms, that's widely understood. It seems like there's even a lot confusion by people in the south not, you know, move way out to like, where I'm from, we I had never even heard the term growing up. So do you feel like things like that are a step in the right direction? Or is it just that like, they're doing it because they feel like pressure? And if no one had called them out on it, they would have just kept doing their thing?

Unknown: 33:16

Both. So both right, of course, of course, it's a step in the right direction, but I would like for people to get to a point where you can think you know, before you do it, so that this does not have to happen, right? Like

Chris Spear: 33:33

not just changing it because you're getting called out on it but like having a pre thought of saying like, okay, is this what I should do? Or maybe you do start it and then a year in have the self realization that it wasn't probably a good idea.

Unknown: 33:46

Yeah, yeah. Yeah. So I think it's a little bit of both right? I think that okay, you can you can own up to right. Um, hopefully now clearly other people should know not to do what you did right? And you shouldn't learn from from an example but um, that's easy to say when you've already built a business and a brand off of it you already have clientele that that know your product, you know, and know you buy this one name. Um, so you making that change is not really not not to say that maybe they have suffered, they probably have, you know, taken a loss, but, you know, you've already you've already established it.

Chris Spear: 34:24

So what's your career path look like? Like, what are you interested in doing? Even if it's short term, like, do you have set goals and things that you're looking to do? Are you taking it day by day,

Unknown: 34:36

and day by day this thing, man,

Chris Spear: 34:39

what's, what's COVID look like right now? What are you doing, like work wise?

Unknown: 34:44

Still doing, doing a lot of my recipe developing work for some brands and some publications. I will have some more pieces coming out really soon. I have a lot of stuff coming out really soon. So that's a good thing. I'm kind of honestly overworking myself. But I don't know a lot like long term right now I can do like freelance, like New Mexico at first at the beginning of the pandemic was really really good, right like governor shutdown really early, we had some of the lowest cases and you know, in the country for months, and just like everyplace else now we're skyrocketing back up. So, I mean, at some point, I wanted to go back into a restaurant and then I'm just like, that's just not gonna happen. It's just not a possibility. Um, and with freelancing, it is kind of given me the opportunity to kind of take a step back out of the kitchen, kind of, you know, refit and figure out what what kind of goals are even attainable, right? Because I really don't know how next year is going to look, I don't know how 2022 is gonna look right. Um, I would still love to do my pop ups that I had planned for this year. I would love to still do my internship for America.

Chris Spear: 36:00

Yeah, for a little bit. I saw that. How did you get this internship?

Unknown: 36:04

I

Chris Spear: 36:05

did the internship look like you just applied for an internship with them.

Unknown: 36:08

I just applied then. This is one thing about me too, man. Like I'm always I'm always looking for a job. I can have a full time salary benefit job, and I'm probably on the clock. Looking at Glassdoor you

Chris Spear: 36:21

know, nothing wrong with that. I

Unknown: 36:24

mean, always trying to improve yourself. Always, always. Um, so No, I know. No, have I haven't met them yet. Like chef el Simone, a chef Cassandra Loughlin, two women who work for America's Test Kitchen, and had already been kind of just talking to them about their experience working there. And I think I just happened to be on the job page, right, looking and seeing what they had. Not. Not ever going to move to Boston, right? Like, looking just to see like, what am I options out there? What are jobs out there looking like that are outside of the kitchen, or outside of a restaurant. And I saw the posting for it. And I sent it to them just kind of asking them like, Hey, you know, do you know about this, blah, blah, blah. And they were like, we'll go ahead and apply. So I applied and they usually do. I want to say like two to four rotations every year. Have a couple couple of people, they prefer people who have like, you know, actual culinary experience in a kitchen. Um, so I applied and yeah, I was supposed to be doing a test kitchen intern. So doing all the behind the scenes stuff. Learning also like about their editorial process, learning how they do the big TV recordings, um, you know, kind of jam packed into into about three months. But then literally about a week, I want to say exactly a week before I was supposed to fly out there is when they're like, Hey, we're gonna push this back a little bit, you know? And then next week, hey, real pushes back maybe to a couple months. And then you know, next week after that was like not look, we completely had to shut down. They're probably not going back to work into you know. Yeah, so yeah, this is kind of just waiting to see how the world like, like, I don't I don't feel safe. by traveling on the airplane. I'm one of those people like, with you.

Chris Spear: 38:19

I'm not we I haven't done any indoor dining at all. We've Yeah, outside twice. Yeah, it's March. Like we're not even doing that, like our clothes downtown. And there's table stuff. I have a friend who has a restaurant. We went there we had ordered pickup when we got there. There was literally one to top outside. And we're able to sit on the opposite side. That was the first I mean, even still, like I'm like taking my mask down like right this Okay, like I just, I still get anxiety about it. And you know, I'm totally down with the takeout. I have no desire, like, I'm in my 40s I want to be like 100 if I have to write in a bunker for two years, to like, live another 60 I'm cool. I got some stuff I'm going to do in my house, you know, personal growth. Spend more time with the family. I don't need to put my life on the line. Like people are like going in a TGI Fridays, taking their mask off to have like an $8 burger. Like, I'm just not there. And I'm sorry. Like, I love the food industry. And I'm so sad that so many places. You know, it sounds like we had a super windy night. And I have friends who post on Facebook today that like their tents totally blew down and all the things holding them like they haven't felt safe opening for indoors. So their only thing they were holding on to is outdoor dining. And now their outdoor parking lot is trashed because a wind and this was like the first thing that happened. I mean, I'm seeing friends in Boston, they had snow last week and it tore through their tents, like they're gonna be screwed. Like it sucks, but I'm not eating indoors. Like I can't wear that burden of like supporting the whole restaurant industry. By right. I know. Like, it's just yeah, there needs to be some more help that definitely I think there needs to be like government intervention. I don't know what that looks like. And I'm not in restaurants per se. So I don't know, but it's tough, but I'm with you. Like we're not riding planes getting on a train, like nothing to drive there in my car and do it. If I can't keep my mask on, I'm not doing it.

Unknown: 40:07

I've never been to Boston. So I'm this beautiful go to, I was so excited. But like, I'm especially not about to go to a place where I don't know anybody, I don't know this place. And we're in the middle pandemic. You don't know, like,

Chris Spear: 40:22

you think some familiarity gives you some comfort during these times, right? It's like, right, even even if it's a false sense of security, I think for managing anxiety, like having that feeling that you belong there. And you know, people, I mean, maybe that's why we're letting our guard down, right? Like, isn't everyone getting sick, because they're hanging out with their friends, they're not really catching it by going to maybe restaurants, although the jury's still out. It's like, oh, because this person lives across the street from me, I know them really well. So they're gonna come in my house, and we're gonna take our mass down, and then everyone's sick. So it's not good. Any, any way you look at it.

Unknown: 40:57

Now.

Chris Spear: 40:58

So you getting paid to do writing right now? Is this something that's actually earning money? So you're not just having to like, you know, do it for free? Because there's so much of that out there too. Like, I love your, your voice and where you're doing, like, Can you write for me? Sure. Like, what's it pay? For exposure? Right? Like, I'm sure I'm sure you're still getting pitched for free exposure pieces.

Unknown: 41:17

Yeah, that that is just not a possibility. And I honestly, I haven't had as many as I feel like, I think I would have otherwise. I don't know if it is because people are just coming to the realization like you're in a pandemic, and people need money. And people don't can't go to work, especially if you're talking about food, right? Like, and especially if you want somebody who actually has experience in this industry, right? Besides writing or whatever, like, I probably don't have a job right now. Or I probably don't have a good paying one. So yeah, I don't know if it's bad. Or if I kind of, hopefully make it very clear that I don't work for free. Like with anybody. Like, though, don't get me I'm not gonna say anybody. There's clearly situations but like, no, if you're asking you to write 2000 words, like, again, like, goes back to what I said at the beginning. That's a whole nother part of my brain I'm now having to use right it's still work. It's I still get exhausted from it. I still get tired from it. And it's still a job, and I should, you should get paid for your job. Um, so yeah, I do most of the stuff writing stuff I do. I get paid for some stuff. I just write because I just want to write you know, or because whatever. Um, but I definitely am getting paid for all of my opportunities. And for me, coming from a restaurant come from a kitchen. The pay is better. Right? Like,

Chris Spear: 42:42

most of the pays better anywhere, most restaurants unless you're unless you're like those from that house. I've never worked front of the house. I know some Front of House people who can clean up pretty well, right? Yeah,

Unknown: 42:51

yeah. But But and that's the kind of the one thing I do miss about front houses like, Man, I'm not gonna walk in here right now and walk out this, you know, walk out this three hour shift with $200 in cash in my pocket, you know. And it's sad, because like, it kind of bothers me some time that I see other people other freelancers saying, Oh, well, this isn't enough money, or this isn't a lot. And that's, that may be very true for where they are, what their lifestyle is, or whatever, right? But it does kind of like make me feel some type of way. And I'm just like, Damn, you know, working in small town, Georgia, USA as a cook, you aren't going to your beat, you should be very pleased if you get $10 an hour. Like, that's good. And a lot of places even out here, right? Like, and then I turn around and I'm making a couple hundred dollars off me right? And some words, right? And it's just like, me, tell me my knees and my feet and my back. Could can be me, you know, they'd be all right. Right? Like, I don't have to go go home smelling like grease and being tired. I could just sit here in my house. And I can do this. So kind of like, I don't know, man, I feel some stuff when I see people like, Oh, you know, $1,000 isn't enough. Right? And I'm like, you know how long it takes most people in this country to make $1,000 and you can do that really? in one sitting? Yeah, I'm

Chris Spear: 44:07

ready to monetize this podcast, believe it, you know, it's like, I just start doing it for fun, but then you start joining some podcast groups and talk to people and I've heard some numbers I'm like, What Yeah, like people get actually be paying me money to do this. Alright, so anyone right here that your sponsorship we could cut out right here and put your sponsorship in anyone who's listening. I'm ready to take it on. You know, you know, you get you do get better at it. You know, it's like when I started this thing, I don't think I was as good as I am. Now. The same with writing. It takes a lot of work. Like how did you get good at your writing? I mean, I think your writing is fantastic is just practice, practice, practice. Keep writing stuff until you get better at writing.

Unknown: 44:44

I guess Listen, I don't know.

Chris Spear: 44:48

Then you're just born with it. Then I you know, you read a lot taught me a lot. I think I mean, always been a reader. I don't think you can be a good writer without being a good reader, right. So

Unknown: 44:59

and I am And it's funny because like a couple of friends and I were talking about this this week, actually, there was some discourse on Twitter about editors, right? I didn't even catch the whole thing. But essentially what I said was like, I'm very, I tried to be very upfront with the editors that I've worked with, like, I again, I want to be better. Right? Hopefully, this is now like a running theme clearly in my life, right? Why I just, I constantly want to be better. I constantly want to be doing something I want to, I think ahead. So I tell them, like, give me feedback. Like, don't get me wrong. Don't be an asshole. Excuse my language, right? Like, don't be a just complete douchebag about it. Right? But like, I want to know, why did you specifically change this to this, right? Because I don't I don't know. I'm not a professional writer. I didn't go to journalism school. I don't understand an EM dash, you know what I mean? Like, I don't get the whole that whole conversation, like I get it, but I don't. But this isn't my, you know, passion, right? Like, this isn't my career field or whatever. So I don't know what I'm doing. I literally just sit and I just type whatever comes out of my head. And it makes sense. I will say like, you know, growing up again, yes, I read a lot. Like, crazy. I have a, I still have a I guess an award I record at my old elementary school for reading the most accelerated reader books for like, third grade, right. So like, crazy reader, um, but then to like, I did take a lot of English forward classes, right in like writing classes and creative classes in general for my degree. So I don't know, because I already had to write like, I had to write a thesis in high school, I had to write a thesis in college, like having some sort of a background of like, you know, this is how a paper should be structured. Right. I have like that kind of background knowledge. But truthfully, I have no idea what I'm doing.

Chris Spear: 46:55

Well, I think, you know, if you're trying to write a nonfiction piece, especially about something like food, you know, that's for the people, right? Like, it doesn't have to be this like super extended, very flowery novel. I think sometimes writing in conversational or basic language gets the point across, like, if you really want the most people to read and comprehend this, I think sometimes you can bog down, like, sometimes you just read this thing. It's like that. It didn't need to be as long as that is like someone's making this overly long because they're trying to fill the page. But, you know, sometimes being concise is the way to go. It is what it is. Yeah,

Unknown: 47:31

I don't feel like I have a style. I don't know, I don't know any of this yet.

Chris Spear: 47:36

I started. If on one hand, it kind of feels lazy. But I've also gotten used as an I like this, I'm now talking almost everything in voice memo. And I find that instead of writing down my blog post, now I just take out my iPhone and hit the mic and talk into it. And then I'll edit from there. But I feel like I can get more out. And then it's easier to edit rather than just like sitting at a blank page and writing it or typing it. But now I feel bad because I see my kids doing it. So my kids are doing virtual learning. And my son's like speaking his computer, it's like no, no, like I know how to write right now. Like, you need to be doing this like, right, right? No, I do feel like I'm setting the wrong tone. But it's the future. I mean, these kids are going to be that's how they're going to be living. Right. Yeah. In what we do. So I always pick up my phone and talk into it. I'm like, I don't know that I want them doing that yet. They need to learn how to spell and read and write. Yeah. Do you have any deep hidden aspirations or open aspirations of owning your own food service establishment? Or is that something you have no desire to do?

Unknown: 48:39

I want to, and everybody's still to those days, don't do it. And like, y'all Look, I know, I know what it entails. I know, right? Like, don't get me wrong, I have not been a GM I have not been an owner. But I've had to run a restaurant, a couple of them. And like, I know, baseline, you know what I mean? Like, what it what it entails, and I still want to do it. That's the part that I hope people understand is like, I have worked in restaurants for 11 years, man, like, I know, from top to bottom front of house and back to house, you know, like, I still want to do it. And I and I kind of you know, a cat myself. Like, oh, you really this is what you really want to do. But yeah, I really do like, but I don't want anything crazy. I don't want to be the next Thomas Keller or whoever, right? Like I just want a low spot. Some small income mainly take out right, maybe have two three tables in there, whatever it will patio in the back. That's really all I don't want anything that's going to require me to have a lot of staff and have to deal with 400 people. I don't want that.

Chris Spear: 49:44

Yeah, there's all kinds of restaurants. I mean, there's your making place I'm talking about it was right up the street from us. It's in a strip mall. They have three tables in there because I feel like they just wanted tables I've never ate like I don't okay, but they've also survived COVID because they're doing a killer takeout business. It's like three people who work there. Something you call the order and you go and you pick it up you bounce awesome food is it and it doesn't have to be a white tablecloth, a Michelin 400 people, you can just have an awesome restaurant putting out some good food like that. Yeah,

Unknown: 50:12

that that's, that's essentially what I want. I mean, in in deep, deep deep down, I would love to have a white tablecloth fine dining, um, you know, experience for the average Joe to be able to go into and afford and enjoy and not feel like you know, you can't come in here, which what your work boots on and come and eat something good, right? Like, if I'm going to do something like that, then in a way it needs to kind of shake up. What what what we think of as conventional fine dining, um, because I think it's stupid, right? Like I grew up in Charleston, I grew up with all these fine dining high end restaurants that, um, people wouldn't feel comfortable going into. And and luckily for me, I've never been that that type of person. Like, if this is where I want to eat, it's good to eat, right. But I understand, I still understand that getting that look of like, well, you're not dressed right to be in here, or you don't look right to be in here, right. And I think that's stupid. So deep, deep, deep down inside of me, I would love to have a place like that where it's just, especially in Charleston, where it would just completely blow everyone out the water like, you can be whoever you want to be in coming here and still eat fine and be able to afford it. I would like to do that. I mean, I would love to do a cookbook, at some point, a couple of a couple book ideas in mind at some point. But I'm also trying not to get too far ahead of myself. And kind of just live in this moment of Now again, because i don't know i, every day I wake up with a little bit of imposter syndrome that's like, you know, why am I doing this? Right? Like people tell me on Twitter or wherever all the time, like we are a writer, writer. Where this is gonna go? I don't I don't know, right?

Chris Spear: 51:56

I'm being open to where it goes. I mean, again, like, I went to culinary school, I'm a chef, I've identified as a chef. But now it's like, the amount of time I spend cooking is so small compared to what I do, because I left working somewhere to start a personal chef business. And that's not a five day a week cooking gig. It's like, maybe three, like, if I'm lucky, I have four days. But that's super rare. But most of the time now it's like marketing and all that stuff. So I'm spending more time writing, blogging, doing photographs, doing the podcast doing all this. And now it's like I have this whole new skill set. So do I still identify as a chef and and coming to terms with that of saying like, well, I'm still a chef. I mean, and I have a commissary business, but I also really enjoy this other thing that has, you know, not a whole lot to do. It's, again, transferable skills, like, I could go start marketing your accounting, you have an accounting firm, great, we can do a podcast about accounting, I can set up a website and build you one for your accounting place. I can do all this stuff that has nothing to do with food and cooking because I taught myself all this stuff to grow my own cooking business. Yeah, but that translates to so many other industries.

Unknown: 53:02

And I think, I mean, this is something I tried to be really vocal about, even with, like, when I was still working in restaurants, and I had little, little line cook homies, right, maybe you know, younger than me. And you're just trying to figure things out. Because you know, of course, you got some of them on one hand that are gung ho, right? Like, I'm gonna be a chef. This is all I know, I chef life hashtag forever, you know what I mean? Like you got those types of then you got those ones, you're like, Man, look, I'm just I'm just here because I need a job. You know, I'm still in school, whatever, whatever I'm like, even if this is what you choose to stay doing, learn, learn everything that you can learn suck this stuff up from whoever is around. Even a bad boss is still a boss you can learn from I'm not gonna say stay there. Right. But like there are transferable skills in some aspects. But most places aren't going to teach you them. Most of most places don't have time, your chef does not have time to teach you how to read a p&l half the time a chef probably doesn't know how to read a p&l himself. Right? Yeah, to be honest, no tone, but at the same time, too, like, I wish that there were more programs available. Today, two owners to shift to staff to be like, okay, hey, here's this new software for X, Y and Z. Yes, this works for your POS system. But it can be transferable to x, you know, whatever other job, right? Like, I wish that there were those things because nine times out of 10 of people working in your restaurant, are not making a lot of money, probably can't afford to go to school or don't have time to go to school or you know, make time for a even an online zoom session. Right? You probably wouldn't you got kids at home or something right? Like that stuff is hard to do for a lot of people. So I wish that even if it wasn't on a governmental level that you have more owners and more chefs who were willing to take that time out because everyone is not going to be like me, everyone. isn't going to ask questions right? Like, and especially if that's all you, you get shown is that you can work in the same position for 10 years and still be making $14 an hour. That's all you see. You don't know to ask about it. You know what I mean? So I wish more people who could kind of put that foot forward first. Like, if you really care about your staff, or you care about even restaurant industry, like there are things that we could be doing to make sure that, you know, you can pivot your restaurant so you can stay open, everyone still is not going to stay open, even if you do that, right. But or maybe there are ways that we can keep our staff hired right now during this time in other ways, right? Absolutely. I don't know. Yeah. transferrable skills, I think, is probably one of the most important things and that's why I'm a champion for like, if I ever do have a restaurant front of houses, learn how to do back house, at least very basic and back houses learn how to do front house, very basic, saves everybody some time.

Chris Spear: 55:57

Who do you like to show some love to whether it's cooks chefs, people in the food media, like who are the unsung people that aren't getting enough credit? Like, is there anyone that you're reading or really admire that you don't think gets enough attention of?

Unknown: 56:13

I don't know. There's so many. Right now I'm going through princess Pamela's cookbook, the Lee brothers sent me a copy. So reading about hers is really really, really cool. Just seeing someone else from South Carolina, not even necessarily from Charleston. And then a time you know, 70s 80s you know, you just don't hear about her, you know, so like, that's, that's some gonads. That's older, but for like everyone right now, man, like, if you follow me on Twitter, on Instagram, that's the that's the place to go. I tried to

Chris Spear: 56:49

share the love.

Unknown: 56:50

I tried to I really, really, really, really do. There's, there's so many people especially like now maybe in the past couple of months that I've just started to come across that are just, you know, phenomenal and and all their own ways. I'm probably gonna butcher her name so I'm so sorry. payola Vasquez. See, I

Chris Spear: 57:09

live in the DC area. So um, I mean, her deserts I haven't been out to where she is now. But when she was working with Kwame like the desert she was putting down, man, I missed that. She's killing it.

Unknown: 57:21

Yeah. killing it right now. And I and I, and I told her the other day, I say, you need to get your flowers now. Um, and I hope she really does, like recognize that like, and I hope people recognize like what she's doing just on a political level, on a personal level. Um, it's astonishing, right and again, especially to see it happening in the middle of Coronavirus. Like that is that's what even not to say that she wasn't exact. She was already on my radar for working. Um, that was Kwame.

Chris Spear: 57:54

But she's on a lot of attention. Like, yeah, that for so much more than just her cooking and food.

Unknown: 57:59

Right, right.

Chris Spear: 58:00

Oh, and now she makes funny tic Tock videos as well. I mean, she put herself out there. Yes. But you know, using that as a tool to get her message out there, I think is phenomenal. I'm, I'm super excited. Like, I've got to get down there. I'm actually headed to DC tomorrow. I'm not sure I want to be in DC on election day. I'm kind of scared. But but we're gonna we're gonna head down there tomorrow for some stuff like, but looking did you do like a pend on like, something like Bob Carr or something like that this past weekend that just look Yeah, crazy. And that restaurant in general is really awesome. But I haven't been since she's been there. So I'm really excited. So yeah, I'm gonna capitalize on the fact that I live about 45 minutes from there and go check that out. Yeah, I think I think she's someone that brilliant. I've started to see coming up a little bit. You know, it's great. Like, that's what I love about the internet is there's no gatekeepers. Now it's, you know, while you're in magazines, like food and wine and stuff like that, like you can also just self publish, and like, you don't have to wait for food and wine to publish your stuff. Just put it on your, your website and post it up, and people will find it. And there you go, you're off to the races.

Unknown: 59:06

Yeah. And that's why it makes it so difficult for me to just be like, you know, these particular people because there's so many I get to this something is something that I craved a lot, right was to be able to, and even now I still do, but to be able to connect with, like minds, right? Or even if we don't have like minds, right, but just to be able to have access to see what other people are doing and how they do things. It really is is really wild, but especially like Like I said, doing this for as long as I have and feeling alone. A lot of times right especially being the only black woman in a kitchen, but nothing but men in the entire restaurant, right and then I'm talking I'm only like 515 to some tiny, right and I want to log in But it's a no have any sort of what community physically with you, it helps definitely to be able to see it online. But there's just so many people now, right where it's just like, every day, I'm probably finding some new chefs to follow. And they're probably in halfway across the world.

Chris Spear: 1:00:18

Like I'm a huge I've been on Twitter for over 10 years. And that's how not only I built my business, but found so many of my friends, you know, and then it died off probably around the time, like you said, like you hadn't been on for like four or five years, I feel like there was a dip a little bit. And I stayed on and I kept telling everyone in the industry, like, if you're someone who wants to connect with people, and network and if you definitely want to get some media attention, like you need to need to be on there. Like I said a number of times, like when like all the publications I've been in was because of it started by some stupid tweet, like, I, um, I made this I made pot liquor ice cubes. All right, stick with me here. Like you just take the pot like or when you're done a thing greens, and I like strained it out and I throw it in the freezer. I'm like, Oh, these are gonna be ice cubes for a cocktail. Like let's stir them on a gin Martini and it gives like some phone gets like bitter. It's sweet. There's some pork in there. And it was stupid. It was something I did. But like cat kinsmen, was following me on Twitter. And this was like seven years ago. And she retweeted it. The next morning, john t edge had emailed me. He's like, I saw your potluck or thing. He's like, I'm doing this article. Like, do you want to be a part of it? Like, yes, I want to be a part of it. But it was just like one of those things like it went, you know, it wasn't meant to be like a serious thing. It was just like taking a crappy photo on my phone. I post it to my website. I tweeted it out. Someone I'm friends with saw reposted it and then just you know, it's like, man, like, I'm gonna be an Oxford American and an article with Sean Brock and who action because of like, the stupid thing I did. But that's how it works. And you just got to keep like, I see what do you put out like 85 tweets a day or something? Probably

Unknown: 1:01:48

really forget, I honestly, forget that. I'm talking. Like there's other people who read it. It really it really is with me, like my, like not even half of my random thoughts that go through my head. Right. But like, there's like, two bumps. I'm actually trying to I'm trying to cut back because especially this week in general. But just Twitter is not always a good place. Right? Like no, definitely a good place because like, it definitely made me realize that like your heroes are a lot more accessible to you than you think they are. Right. And they're also a lot more human. Definitely right. Yeah, like was used catagen right, I would otherwise have probably never heard of cat never talked to cat never thought of who cat kinsmen is right. And so while I see this person talking about and blah, blah, blah. So I was like, oh shit like she's a real person. Right when he talks about okra all day, right? Like, so it's good on that part too. But it is just like the kind of the the constant flow of people and conversation and things that are happening a lot of times gets to be like way too much for me.

Chris Spear: 1:03:01

You have to you have to take it in stride. Like this past weekend. I don't like going on like it was Halloween, I want to spend it with my family, like, and then Sunday, I was just off and I'm just like I took two days off. Like I checked in a little bit. And it's hard because like, I'm managing all my own social media. But now chefs at restaurants is a thing too. So like, my shows, restaurants, Instagram, like I'm reposting other people's stuff. And I feel like I need to put out like seven posts today. Like right now we're recording but today was also released day. So like when I'm off here, like I got a pop on Instagram, like, share this person who's the guest this week and share their info and do all that and like that's exhausting. Like I'm trying

Unknown: 1:03:35

a lot of work.

Chris Spear: 1:03:36

I'm trying to run my business that makes money. I'm trying to run Tesla restaurants like, but why am I doing all this? Like I said, it's so I could have a better home life, right like so that I could work on my terms. But it's like, well, I'm not spending time with my family. I'm not doing that. So it's like I enjoy it. I love the podcast. I love all this stuff. But you also have to be accepting and say like, no, it's Halloween. Like I just I don't need to post on Instagram today. Like it's not gonna cost me my business. You know? Like it's so easy to get caught up and then yeah, if I have a slow day, I might tweet 30 times might take like three days off and you can't beat yourself up because you didn't get on the internet. Like there's other things going on. Exactly. This has been awesome. Um, I think we're about ready to wrap up our time here I feel like we you and I could go for so much longer and yeah, any parting words anything you want to share before we jump on out of here?

Unknown: 1:04:24

Oh, no, me Y'all better where y'all mess us all. I know.

Chris Spear: 1:04:27

Where your math Yeah, I

Unknown: 1:04:28

know where your madness This is gonna.

Chris Spear: 1:04:30

This is gonna come out after election so it'll be interesting to see and I don't know. I don't know how much I'm gonna be glued to the internet.

Unknown: 1:04:37

I don't Yeah, I don't know any good parting words, man. Just Everybody stay safe. Really? You know?

Chris Spear: 1:04:45

No word so we can all travel again if nothing else. I know that seems like a small thing but I just want to be able to,

Unknown: 1:04:51

I want to go. Alright.

Chris Spear: 1:04:56

Well, thanks so much for coming on the show. And to all our listeners. This has been the Chefs Without Restaur nts podcast. As always, you can ind us at chefswithoutrest urants.com, and .org and on all ocial media platforms. Thanks s much. Have