A Discussion with Chef Thomas O'Gara - Vice President of Culinary at Tessemae's

Welcome to the Chefs Without Restaurants podcast. I'm your host Chris Spear. On the show. I have conversations with culinary entrepreneurs and people in the food and beverage industry who took a different route. They're caterers, research chefs, personal chefs, cookbook authors, food truckers, farmers, cottage bakers and all sorts of culinary renegades. I myself fall into the personal chef category as I started my own personal chef business Perfect Little Bhites 10 years ago. And while I started working in kitchens in the early 90s I've literally never worked in a restaurant. This week. I have chef Thomas O'Gara. With more than 25 years of food and beverage experience, he's spent most of his professional career working for Marriott. Last year, Thomas started a new adventure as the vice president of culinary for Tessemae's, an all natural dressing and condiment producer based outside of Baltimore, Maryland. On the show, we discuss his experience with Marriott implementing culinary programs across many of their properties. We talked about his new position at Tessie Mays, culinary trends and vegetable oval reminder that you can help support our podcast and the Chefs Without Restaurants network by donating through our Patreon. Monthly support starts at just $5 a month, go to patreon.com forward slash Chefs Without Restaurants to find exclusive recipes and see our tiered rewards. And thank you to this week's sponsor all of in baskets with more than 30 each oils and vinegars Olive and basket is my go to for specialty food items. They also have seasoning blends sauces, jams, pasta, honeys, chocolate, gift baskets, and so much more. Just last night, I use their blood orange vinegar on a fennel salad that I made. Sharon and Cindy do a great job curating a wide selection of items that are loved by both professional chefs and home cooks, located in Frederick, Maryland, their shop is at 5231 buches. town Pike, but you can also order all of their products online and have them shipped directly to your house. Go to Olive and basket.com. And just for Chefs Without Restaurants, podcast listeners, if you type in Chef 20 at checkout, you'll get 20% off your whole order. And now on with the show. Thanks so much for listening and have a great week. Hey, welcome to the show. Thomas. Good to have you on.

Thank you. Pleasure to be here and looking forward to it.

Yeah, so I guess we've kind of known each other for over 20 years now. Although, you know, I think it's funny. We both went to Johnson wells at the same time, but I don't think we even really knew each other. I don't recall ever being any, in any classes with you.

Yeah, I think we had a lot of mutual people we knew but, you know, coronary was kind of a blur. But even at the final two years, I was a teaching assistant. So I was doing working during the day and then going to school at night. So quite possible, you know, we might have seen each other but not No, no, no at all.

Yeah. And then I guess it was it starships probably in like 2012 or so i think is when I kind of saw you again for the first time since school and we had reconnected and then probably like, became Facebook friends or something after that.

Yeah, that's I think that's exactly what it was. I think it was probably the jack that had said, like, you know, Chris went to Johnson & Wales and I think he lives by you. I'm like, Where does he live? Like, oh, he lives up in Frederick. And I was like, Oh, he does live fight me. That is a bit of a coincidence. Yeah. And I think since then we've kind of just checked in and see how each other we're doing over the years.

Yeah. So you went to school for culinary? What did you did you get your bachelor's in? What was that in?

Food Service Management. So I remember, I think when we were there was right at the cusp of you kind of needed that management degree. I remember I had a lot of conversations with our professors. And the going opinion was you could probably do it without it but you'd be better off if you did get it so you know, and of course, looking back in hindsight, I'm very, very glad that I did that.

So Have you always been interested in food and cooking? Like Did you know at a young age that you wanted to get into the food and hospitality business?

Not at the time, you know, I look back at the things that I used to do. Growing up. One of the things from early on, I used to watch like great chefs of Northeast like that, that PBS show is like great chefs of hotels. And you know, when there was like, literally was that and like Yan can cook were like the, to the to show cooking shows actually on site. Remember, I was always drawn to watching that show, but not always, you know, tinkering and experimenting in the kitchen. But then I, you know, I picked up a job, you know, washing dishes, kind of like most of us, I'm sure all did it at a Thai restaurant that did some catering on the side and just kind of slowly began to work my way up through there, you know, they gave me a knife, let me start to chop and cook stuff. And then I think the one of the turning points I realized was there was actually a home mech class in high school, I took it so I can kind of have a mulligan course where I could just veg out and not really worried about anything. And I got put into a group with a bunch of, you know, we'll say screw ups to put it politely. And I was always getting annoyed, they would mess up the recipe. So I was basically like, kind of ushering these people out be like, you know what, here, I'll do it like you hang out over there. Oh, you know, I'll make the peanut butter cookies. And then from there, I kind of realized I was like, wait, I'm working as cooking. I you know, I generally enjoy this. And, you know, when the conversation became, what are you going to do with this? You know, it started to look like a natural path. And as nascent as my experience was going in the culinary school, I think it really allowed me to absorb everything that I was about to be exposed to.

So when you get out of culinary school, what did you do for a job? What was your first job?

I was hired out of college by Marriott International. So that was, you know, I was hired into our Management Development Program. And that basically started the journey, you know, that I, you know, stopped working with them last year, but I had been with them for 20 years, up until 2020.

That's a good chunk of time. So what did you end up doing with them? I mean, I know you're traveling a lot, I, I've seen a lot of your photos, it seemed like you went to some really cool places. So what did your job entail?

You know, the short version of kind of working through the ranks is, you know, work, got into the Management Development Program. And then from there, they kind of place you went to a property and then you you're there, you know, grow from there. So I'd started as a fruit production manager, eventually moved around to different hotels, and working my way through the ranks and pretty much worked from Boston down to DC, you know, within different hotels that I've worked at, opened or had experience with. But then in 2008, I was hired on to a team for, you know, we'll say corporate, you know, to corporate teams, so I was brought on to the global food and beverage team when we were late, starting the renovation of the courtyard brand. So by now, you know, if someone's been in the courtyard, you know, they all have the program. So it was, was essentially us redoing the, the food service for that brand, going from a buffet to an ala carte, and kind of offering. But then also, you know, on top of that I had worked through, you know, a lot of our limited service brands redoing their offerings within those. And being on the culinary team, I had touched a number of our, you know, full service and luxury brands, too. So like, the way I used to play the news, I was one of the people that could tell you the kind of cereal, you needed this Spring Hill suites, but also the offerings in a Ritz Carlton club lounge, which, you know, at the time I started, it was very, there was limited service and was full service and was luxury. And they didn't really overlap that much. So that's what really began my corporate journey. And then where the travel piece came in. At the time, I was at the corporate headquarters, the company had gone to a continental structure. So you know, previously, a lot of the items had just come out from the headquarters in Bethesda and they were shot out into the world and people, you know, went and work with them from there. So as they were growing more global, I was on the team of the Americas that got you know, you are now responsible for what was going in that continent. It was run much more of like a business and I was one of the first people to be brought on to that team. And to be able, you know, had to chart a roadmap of how we were going to engage with hotels, how we're going to facilitate training and how we were going to be the, you know, the boots on the ground for the market.

So were you doing any cooking at all? Or was it all kind of behind the scenes management stuff,

it was a little bit of both the you know, for the development of, you know, everything you produce, it had to have some kind of a recipe or, you know, we'll say use record for how you're going to make it. So everywhere from courtyard to the full service Marriott, if we were producing something that was part of a program that was you know, how to make it, how to source it and get from there. And then as we started the work with the hotels, that's where a lot of that was based around our renovation, so they they have money for a new restaurant, about three months out, we start working with the hotels develop a path of Okay, here's what we need to open, here's what we need for a concept. And I would work with the hotels and the chef to figure out, okay, we're going to do this concept, what does that mean? What do we you know, what are guardrails that we're going to put into a place. So you know, in six months, we're not in the Italian restaurant with gumbo on the menu or something, you know, something along those lines, so I was a little bit of the enforcer to make sure like, this thing has to be evergreen, you know, for a number of years, we're not going to spend $2 million dollars on a restaurant, and then re concept another year. So you wanted to put those in, in process. And through that you're going to be you know, obviously documenting, but you're cooking for it, you know, is something that I always enjoyed that, you know, as you probably have seen, as you know, over the years, the higher you go up in an organization, usually the further away from the knife kit you get. And from all the work that I had been doing and all the development, you know, even the merrier Test Kitchen, there isn't sous chefs and other chefs in there. So you know, the first time I walked in there, and they're like, we need chop garlic, and you look around and you're like, I guess that's me, it's so. So I always remained very coherent in my abilities to be able to cook. Because some of the times on the other piece of that when you roll into somebody's hotel, and you're starting to tell about what food they need, and what good food should taste like, they're like, Alright, well, show me what you got. And I'm like, I love this game. If you want to be able to good, be a good cook, and know what you're doing, and especially show it to other people, you got to be able to show up when it's time.

Yeah, and some people don't mind not cooking. I mean, a lot of people get into culinary and then they just decide they're okay with being, you know, behind the scenes of management, that wasn't me, like I always wanted to keep my hands and cooking, which is such a challenge. I think, like you had said, as you move up through the ranks, I found that I was more of an HR manager than I was a chef at some point. And I had to find ways to kind of rewrite my own job description so that I could stay in the kitchen more.

It's something that inherently it happens, you know, between all the things you need to do for accounting, exactly what you said all the HR stuff, you really almost had to find time to be out there looking and seeing what's going on, you know, in the kitchen. And especially, you know, when whenever I had the opportunity to do a bigger program or you know, some kind of a reception or, you know, something a little bit outside the norm like, that's where, you know, you get all geeked up on that stuff. It's like, Alright, we're gonna go to chef Central, we're gonna buy a bunch of stuff, we're gonna get some new, you know, playwear to play with. And that's what sometimes became discouraging when I would, you know, be connecting with somebody about a, you know, a VIP banquet or something very high profile, and they just kind of roll in and play dead or like, well do whatever you got to do. I'm like, you know, it's what I used to say when I'm training people. I'm like, we all got into this business, because we loved it. Like it's that was part of, you know what God is in here. And, you know, I used to put people on the, you know, call them on the carpet and say, look like if you want to go work with accounting spreadsheets, white coat, gork and accounting. Don't roll in with this just piss poor attitude that I need to worry about month end. Yes. You have to worry about month end, but you got into this. And you were in chef flights. So you know what pack like

you had mentioned that you weren't there until last year. So what are you doing now?

I'm currently the Vice President of culinary for Tessie Mays, all natural. So Tessie Mays is a all natural dressing condiment manufacturer based outside of Baltimore, Maryland and I known about them for For quite some time, there was a colleague of mine, Crispin de Tommy, who me and her worked on the global team together, you know, kind of with some of the programs that I was referencing before, and she had left Marriott and then went to Tessie Mays, when, you know, when they were still a growing company, they are still a growing company, and mean person that always stayed in touch, we, you know, good friendship, and I had always kind of been intrigued with the company, and all through the years, I've been watching them grow. And, you know, at one point A few years back, we, you know, we're close to potentially me jumping ship back then. But, you know, just things didn't work out, there was some life things going on that, you know, kept me in my place. But there's a company that I always appreciated, you know, it's a family company, with a good product and the values that they have within it, you know, from that point to this day, they haven't wavered in the product they put out, they don't waver in the quality. And, you know, we constantly get reminded by our CEO, Greg, that, that's what will keep us here. But he says, once we lose quality, or we lose the culture, then we're in trouble. You know, I think that was that was tested over this last year with, you know, obviously, everyone being remote, myself included. But, you know, as far as you know, looking back over last year to switch, you know, I couldn't be happier with the way things worked out.

So what exactly are you doing for them?

I don't know. Yes, it's still work in progress. But, um, we've begun to develop different line extensions of whether it be a request from a retailer or project of, you know, something we think the market needs. So one of the first items that I was brought on last year was working on a balanced box, which is a, you know, kind of a meal replacement, you know, are on the go kind of a snack item that, you know, paired with our dressing this, you know, we went through and made sure there was a lot of quality other products to complement that. I've worked on the development of those. And then in addition, like I said, we work with a lot of different retailers, and one of them being Sam's Club. So testimonies had pitched them a few years ago about trying to get dressing in their stores, and Sam's Club was, like, you know, we want to buy a whole salad, you know, we don't want just the dressing. So we went out, you know, found a produce vendor that we could work with, and then begin to, you know, put together these kits with these different salads together, obviously, paired with our dressings. And, you know, the way we look at it, you know, is Sam's Club, you know, obviously, the, the breadth and expanse they are through the United States, it gave us the ability to get better food and people's hands, you know, our slogan is simplify food to amplify life. And part of that is, you know, not just speech to throw it out there for people but we want to get better cleaner food in people's hands. And, you know, and so that's where this the relationship we have with them gets our product in a lot of people's hands and cleans up a space that a lot of people aren't looking at now, but it's very much been amplified over the last year. You know, the growth that we've seen in the product is you know, people were panic buying at first but they continued to buy, you know, I think a lot of that is you know, people are still making their meals at home. And a third one cooking otter meals, they start to be you know, become a lot more cognizant of the label and what's in it. And you know, the piece I tell people that I love is like, we're the best out there and there isn't really a comparison.

You know, I've never been a big Walmart shopper but every time I go in there I'm always surprised at the smaller companies that they have on their shelves and some really great products you know, I always kind of think of them as this huge box store that's like this big machine and then I'll go in and find like a really super local or super small or really cool organic product and I think that's one of the things is like getting really good products in the bigger stores and the places where more people are shopping.

What exactly that and I remember you know when I would be doing training at Marriott I would say Who do you think the number one seller of organic goods are? And people would you know name just like uh, you know, Whole Foods or, you know, sprouted any one of those nuggets Walmart, like them putting stony field yogurt in stores at a time. That, you know, they're the ones that can help to change the temperament of the industry and getting it in people's hands. And it was something, you know, when I worked at Marriott, you're very cognizant that the changes you make the products you put out, and the messaging and how they're done, you can very much change the industry. You know, I remember one of the projects I worked on with Marriott, before the pandemic, we started to look at the room service space. And, you know, room service had its stigma as it deserved every single one. So we went and decided to innovate in that space. Part of that being, you know, get the speed, that you can get it up to your room. So we started to investigate putting it in packaging versus, you know, having it in China with the Giro, Dawn, and, you know, all the all the things that entailed. And at that time, all the packaging in the industry was just crap. So, we went out and developed our own, obviously, you know, took a little while, but we, you know, we got everything like we need to, but since we had done that, you've watched things get changed over the years, things get a little more dynamic, things got a little more interesting. It wasn't just a bunch of Styrofoam containers anymore. And, you know, add credit to the team that helped do that. But that's, you know, us too, you know, Marriott doing that was a part of what changed the industry with what was expected in that space.

Well, what are you passionate about in the food industry? Are there any things that really excite you?

I think just staying on top of it, you know, with with, you know, watching what trends are seeing what has staying power, seeing what will become the next thing, and how that constantly changes, you know, so that's where, you know, especially, you know, my last, my last roles, including this one is you need to have a pulse on top of that, you know, so whether there's a flavoring that's going to be coming to the forefront, or is there a cuisine that's really just becoming a thing, you know, I think for you know, one of the best examples of that is chipolte pay, you know, not not the restaurant, but the condiment is, you know, this was some, like, wild thing, it was a, you know, the smoky tasting different, you know, flavor that people weren't used to, but it was very palatable, and also wet with, across a lot of different genres. And it just became a very big thing. You know, watching vegetables do that I, you know, I remember, it was, you know, around 2005, I had put brussel sprouts on a banquet menu, and, you know, roasted them very similar to what you see today, you know, it's roasted, brussel sprouts and balsamic and a little bit of pan cheddar, and would bring them out. And people were like, oh, brussel sprouts, and I'm like, this tribe, and they're like, Oh, my God, these are amazing. And, you know, I would say at that point, probably a little ahead of the curve before it came. But

you know, the fact that the staying power is that vegetable To this day, that is just such a maligned, my number one selling side dish for my business when I propose vegetables. brussel sprouts are number one, which is insane to me. But you know, again, it's proper cooking technique, I am 100% sure that my mother never roasted them, if we ever had them, if you had them, they were probably frozen. And they were either boiled or microwaved. And those are disgusting. I still won't eat them. But you know, I, you know, I like to cut them in half. So you have more surface area, and then heat up some bacon fat and a cast iron skillet, throw them in there, and then throw the skill in the oven, finish it off with a little little chop bacon, something a little sour, maybe some lemon juice, maybe some vinegar, little brown sugar, you're good to go.

When we were doing some of the initial work for that the packaging I was telling you about, we were in Amsterdam, and we're in Belgium, and it talks about the people there and they're like, well, what are some of the trends in the United States? And you know, even at that time, I was like, uh, you know, what brussel sprouts is one of them. And they all looked at me with that puzzled look like, you know, what do you mean? And I was like, well, when you have them, like, how do you eat them over here? And he's like, Oh, you know, my mom would uh, you know, score the bottom a little bit and then the steam numb and put a little bit of cinnamon on top. As I like, with throwing up in my mouth that sounds I was like, that's like people hate them. That's it, you know, that's exactly why that I explained them, you know, very, very similar to what you did. They need acid and they need fat, you know, and if that facce cured pork product It's that much better. But that roast them at a higher heat than you feel comfortable doing. Get some good carmelization you know, fat and acid. And you know, they're great vehicle for flavor.

All of the vegetables that most of my customers order, they're all like brassicas, or cruciferous vegetables, I do tons of cauliflower, broccoli, Brussel, sprouts, cabbage, all that kind of stuff again, so we're, you know, nobody's ordering carrots or green beans, or peas, or any of that stuff. I don't even really like cooking that stuff.

You know, cauliflower, as he said, You know, that's another one that's kind of just kicked into another stratosphere where I remember seeing a meme where it said, you know, Did anyone ask cauliflower if it was okay, becoming all these different things like pizza crust and kaiso. And like, every base to a dip, and it's, you know, and it continues to this day. I mean, you know, as much as I thought more heirloom carrots were going to become a thing, you know, you know, a year or two ago, they've kind of stayed in the same place, but Brussels and cauliflower have kind of been to that keep, keep evolving. And, you know, it's what I would tell people with, you know, as, I'm sure you and most of the other people know, when you know, when you're hiring a chef, you give them a cook test. And you know, sometimes people will, you know, they would send me a note, say, you know, we got a cook test, I'm gonna give them these different items, and you know how to prepare some dishes. So I'm like, Well, what do you what do you give them? They're like, well, I gave him a ribeye steak filet. And I looked there, you know, if you haven't figured out by now, I'm pretty candid. I'm like, Why don't just give him a hamburger? Like Screw it. Like, just here, you grill these things? And then you know, sometimes get a puzzled look. And they're like, What? What do you mean? I'm like, give them vegetables. I was like, put broccoli in front of people and say make broccoli sexy. Make this sexy and make it taste good. I was like, and if they do it, they know what the hell they're doing. I go cuz it's pretty easy to grow grow estate to medium medium. Well, we cook burgers all day long. You know, somebody can take a vegetable and make it exciting. That's your person you want.

I love it. I would do the same thing I would like break out. I was like a kid in a candy store. When I had to give one of these to a guy coming in. I loved I would just get up in and put, you know, I put some oatmeal. It's like I've got some chicken livers in there. I've got some chicken thighs. Let's get some catfish. Let's get some brussel sprouts. You know take some you know Marcona almonds or some weird nut maybe break out like a chimichurri sauce and just see what they're doing. Because I do think, you know, there are a lot of people doing modern cooking like you and I in some of these places. You know, I worked in contract food. But you also kind of got these quite often old school chefs who are very much like filet and Bernays kinda guys, and it's like, I really wanted to tell what kind of chef was coming in. And I just, that's not the kind of chef I was looking to hire.

Yeah, that's exactly it. And then, you know, one of the things that I've done over the last few years, you know, we skipped last year, sadly, because of COVID. But I started working with a local farm by me. And you know, it started out as a little booth during an open house, and we grew it into a dinner. And the dinner is focused on the vegetables that they grow. And, you know, we we kept it at a manageable amount of people. But part of the planning for that was I would take last year's harvest list, and I would start working up a menu off of that. And then you know, a month out and be like, how's everything looking? Or like, I don't know if keys are gonna make it and you know what, we might have a challenge here. And so I'm like starting to whittle down, okay, maybe I don't have this gotta look at this. And I'm like, Well, what about you know, what about the carrots? Now? bugs got the carrots. No, no more carrots. Like, what what do you have like, well, we got turnips, like, oh, god damn it, but I you know, I always liked it because you know, as a chef, you need to be able to think on your feet. And this was an ever evolving thing that you know, you can call the produce company and have this stuff shipped in. But I like to keep myself in a box of it came off this farm, you know, and that was one of the you know, the things I loved at the dinner was like, you know, we would supplement a little bit of protein from local farms rows like nothing here traveled more than 15 to 20 miles to get here. And you know, when I turned around and I made I did some of the turnips I did made like miso glazed turnip with a little bit of yuzu kosho powder over top. And you blows people's minds. I was like I blew my mind when I made it first because like, I didn't know I had that in my back pocket. But you know, when you can take those things that are, you know, somewhat blind or just looked at as pedestrian vegetables and make them that much better. It's, you know, you get people in

Well, that's where the creativity comes in. Similarly, I used to do like a sustainability dinner at my last job. And we would try and use as many cooking byproducts as we could. So you know, like saving cauliflower cores, and I made like, a harissa with that. So you just chopped them up and put them in the Vitamix with all this stuff, or her Risa and you got this like nice chunky condiment using something that would go in the trash, you know, saving corn husks and turning it into ice cream. I don't know if you've ever heard of my famous corn husk ice cream, but you take them and you dry them in the oven, and then infuse them into your milk and cream base, and you get this really nice toasted corn flavor. And again, that's something that would just go in the trash. And I find that kind of stuff fuels your creativity, because we're like, well, we're committed to, like really not throwing anything away. And let's see what we can do. And me and my, my chefs, we did a great job. And just every year we did this for like eight years, and would keep pushing ourselves in the whole year, we'd like playing up for that event. So in the process of that we just incorporate it into our natural menus for our other customers and say like, what do you think of this and we came up with some pretty cool stuff.

Yeah, it's some something in the last few years that I've begun to, you know, put that piece into there as well. But you know, especially coming from a local farm, you want to you know, much like animal butchery you want to use as much as the animal as possible as you know, having some bright delicious beet leaves and you know, people just usually Chuck those in the trash was like, No, you can you can cook with them and you know, even down to you know, all the tomatoes at the end of the season, they'd be frozen. So you know, typically lead off with last year's tomato bisque and, you know, just kind of get the messaging out there that it's you know, vegetables are much like meat and the fact that they have a lot of different parts, but you're just usually eating one of that.

Vegetable oval. Yeah. Compared new term. I don't know if I've ever heard that. I just thought of that on the fly. I don't know. Yeah, you trademark that for like, that's Whoa, whoa, better go. I find that greens are great. And kimchi. So like beet greens, all that kind of stuff, like, like you were saying that that people normally throw out, you know, you can save the greens that come off of cauliflower, you can save the greens that come off of Cole Robbie. And just that stuff's great. Just chef a nod it up and then toss it into, you know, a big batch of kimchi.

Yeah, that's even, you know, even down to little stuff like celery leaves, like so really, you know, people usually pick those away, or, you know, they taste just as good as everything else, you know, one, you could eat them in whatever you're dipping it in or, or you can also, you know, incorporate it into the recipe as well. It's just, you know, it's I think it's what you have seen and what you were growing up, you know how you're processing these. But once you start to open up your eyes to all those little pieces, you know, there's a lot more food there than just the little component of what you're looking at. You know, it was funny when you said the Cali flower. I remember, you know, as a number of years ago that I seen Michael solomonov It's a have, you know, on his menu, he said that the special is Cali flower heart with, you know, a date puree or something like

that. I stole the cauliflower core harissa from him. 100 100% I wasn't going to say it. But since you're you mentioned him. He did a demo with Star chefs. And I did the workshop with him. And we use that as the condiment on his hummus. So he's like, yeah, this is a really cool thing. He's like, instead of throwing those away, you just take them and chop them up and make your harissa in the Vitamix, but put the cauliflower cores in there. And it was like a condiment to go inside his his hummus. So

yeah, didn't mean to blow up your spot, but I always was. I was always an average looking at that. I was just like, you know, but that's also what chefs do. You know, I think, you know, when you're explaining to people that you know why short ribs cost more than, you know, a prime steak these days is, you know, shorter, we used to be a throwaway Butcher's cut, then somebody turned around and was like, you know, on our braces, I'm gonna braise this and we'll make it nice and tender. And you know what, this thing is delicious. And then it's the mainstream of you know, what's going in there. You know, it's the same like chicken wings, you know, back before, you know, the buffalo wings became a thing that was a throwaway piece because everyone wanted the breasts and the rest of it, they just, you know, just give it to somebody else. And now how I mean, we have a chicken wing shortage and they're going for, you know, a ridiculous amount per pound because that's all people are eating these. Yeah,

I don't want a chicken breast. Now. No, it's

it's literally the last. That's where, you know, I always think back to remember at Johnson and Wales, you know, when I was a teaching assistant and a few other locations, we were feeding the students. So we would obviously you know, we would have to work within a budget. And we would always have checked that, you know, there was rarely ever chicken breast and you know all the students want chicken breast, I want a chicken breast and I'm sick of chicken thighs. And you know, fast forward, you know, that's that's all I'd rather eat.

Well, I'll have to say one of my roommates Johnson Wales was also a TA. He's also been a guest on this podcast, but not outing him by name. But he when he was working at the Radisson, it was Super Bowl Weekend, and he used all the chicken wings to make chicken stock that they were supposed to be using for wings. And that did not go over really well.

No, that's, that's what freaks people out. I'm sure you know it. But if people are like, well, I want to make a really good chicken stock. I'm like, Oh, good. Go get a bunch of chicken feet. And they're like, Wait, what? As I go, yeah, you want a good chicken stock? Obviously, they probably don't have it at your local supermarket, go to your local Asian or Indian supermarket. They'll have them there I go once you know, if you're not ready for what chicken feet look like they look like they think, but they will make you the best damn stock you've ever had. So?

Absolutely. We used to do like staying on top of trends and such. What are some of your favorite culinary resources? Do you like websites, magazines, cookbooks? Where do you find inspiration?

cookbooks, as much as I like to collect the ones from people that are coming, you know, I find that I I look through them, and maybe try a few recipes. But you know, I don't cook through them as much I kind of just look for, you know, what went into making it, you know, I think you know, any of the French Laundry cookbooks are like a linear than that, you know, it's a coffee table book as much as it is functional. And then, you know, now it's the internet. But within the internet, you know, you can follow the chef's on Instagram, some, you know, some are better, showing what they're working on than others. And then, you know, diving into the restaurants within each city, part of you know, what I've been attuned to do is, you know, whether it be eater infatuation or any of those is knowing what's going on in every single major city, and everywhere in between, and then figuring out which of these really has some legs, which, you know, I think the toughest part of this last year is everyone had to hunker down and everybody started really skewing towards more homestyle meals, you know, and completely understandable. It's, you know, it's not something that they really could but, you know, I think when Alinea is making Beef Wellington with mashed potatoes and a chocolate tart, you know, it shows you that, you know, one they're not too proud to say, you know, we have to make this an overinflated version of what it is. But they realize that they have the pulse of what's going on. And it resonated with our guests. You know, it was something that I used to teach as well, you know, having someone who has tried and true items on your menu. So whether it be you know, whether it be the short route, whether it be the Caesar salad, those items, there's a comfort and a familiarity there, and people eat very emotionally and food has, you know, very emotional part of people's lives. And I think that's kind of telling for what happened over this last year is, you know, it's people, you know, they weren't counting as much they were just kind of looking for what they enjoy. And you know, that when I would be traveling, you know, for, you know, four or five days at Eclipse some time I was like, You know what, I just want a burger.

I've in general, that's what I want to be eating now. Like, I'm not interested in this long, three hour dinner, like there's not that many, like Michelin threes, or even twos, I want to go to like a solid one. Or like, that kind of restaurant that places not overly stuffy, where you can get some really cool food. But yeah, I just I don't know, I'm not interested in a more like, I could care less about going to the French Laundry to be honest.

Yeah, it's, you know, there's a time and a place but, you know, the exact sediment that you just said, you know, a lot of people that have been able to go around and experience a lot of decent food that's, you know, kind of what that becomes. The part of that that I always hate is when they are just going that over the top, you know, I'll never forget I was at a two star Michelin restaurant in Chicago. And every course was three paragraphs long in description. And the sommelier, you know, the wine was pairing what the course was another five paragraphs of what it was. And at first you're kind of sitting there just kind of nodding your head and Okay, you know, being cordial, but you know that that one ounce of pheasant breast on your plate is not getting any warmer. Like, if it was warm what it left the kitchen, you know, and you feel rude, but it's like, Alright, you know, you need, you need to read room a little bit too. You know you need if you want to look and see how your food is landing and how your guests are feeling, you can't just walk up to the table and say, how's everything going? Because, you know, people go, Oh, it's fine. They want to get you out of the way, you know, keep moving. So yeah, exactly. It was like, you know, look around, look at the plates, you know, look at how many people are coming back, you know, and then ask some questions. But

yeah, I mean, I'm heading down to Asheville, North Carolina tomorrow, and then we'll be in Charleston. And I'm jazzed to go to Buxton, Hall barbecue, like, that's number one on my list, you know, and that's just the, you know, awesome barbecue spot. Like, that's kind of where I'm at these days, that's the most exciting place I want to go. And then I'll hit Scott's barbecue when I get down to Charleston, and we'll go to somewhere like Edmonds OST, but no, like, super, super formal places on my list,

the same exact thing I you know, there's a happy medium with what I like to look for. And, you know, these days, I can kind of look at our restaurants menu and figure out, you know, is it gonna be worth the money is the food look like, it's good enough, and then figuring all those out, that's for, you know, kind of speaking in Chicago, like the purple pig, which, you know, it's been around for a number of years, but it's fantastic. You know, it's, it's one of my favorites, you know, probably in the United States, because they have Creative Cooking, there's a lot of vegetable focused dishes, things that are very simple just turned on her head. And, you know, for a place, you know, when I would travel, I wouldn't usually go back to the same place, I've been to another city. But literally, every time I go to Chicago, I have to go to purple pig. And you know, and then even from there, they do change the menu. But the items that I've known to grow in love, so I always remember I was there and posting on Instagram. And my boss at the time was like, you know, there's other restaurants in Chicago. And I was like, yep, I love this one. And then I'm posting more of this. And she's like, you know, there's other dishes, they serve at the Purple Bag. And I was like, yep. But you know what, I'm eating a pork neck gravy and the turkey leg. And I'll throw in some other things. But I'm definitely getting all these.

Well, if you could work with anyone for a day or shadow them, is there anyone you'd really want to hang out with, either in the kitchen or just anywhere?

I would say, you know, as many times as I've grown Alinea out there, like, I've watched grant Achatz from when he was, you know, working a trio in Evanston, Illinois. And you know, as the internet was just taken cold, like the E curious blogs, and vans wing Lee, who was posting the pictures of when literally, the internet was just a bunch of chat boards. And I've watched him, you know, continue to grow progress, but still be mindful about what's going on, you know, kind of so we've referenced and had the pleasure of meeting him a few times, and just somebody that's that in tune with what you could do with food, but also understanding that sometimes you need to turn around and reinvent yourself. And sometimes you need to read the room and change the entire style of your cuisine, and do it proactively versus reactively like the rest of the industry typically does.

Well, I think similarly, Nick oconus his business partner is quite an innovator in the food service world. I mean, he's got his own reservation platform. I mean, he came up with all these new ideas during COVID so the pairing of those two guys I think they're doing some really interesting stuff.

Exactly you know, it's it's one thing for a bunch of people to say they hate Open Table or whatever it is, it's another one that go build a platform and then have have it rise to the top as the you know, the number one place for people to go and you know at the end of you know with the industry too especially in that world is cover your costs you know people don't realize when places take reservations especially now that you know if you don't show up there isn't always necessarily a line out the door either. And that restaurants get into like gonna be eating that cost all cuz you were a little too callous to call up and you know, and let them know so you know, I'm always a big proponent of if I can't make a reservation or something like that. You need to let them know but it I think it shone a light to more people that you know, these restaurants you know, they will work on even expensive ones work on razor thin margins. And especially with the quality of the product. They bring in. And that, you know, restaurant restaurants are taught are tough. And it's a world, you know, that's, you know, been amplified over last year and the ones that can continue to, you know, pull it out and make make ends meet, you know, you know, we have hope that they continue to make that happen over the years.

I'll be standing by waiting to see what happens for sure. So your Instagram we didn't really jump into but briefly, you you're kind of showcasing your travels via food adventures. that right?

Yeah, I it's, it's kind of morphed over time, as you scroll down, you can, you know, it started as my personal one. And then, like you had mentioned me traveling, I would kind of showcases some of the places that you that I've been to, but especially over this last year, I realized that, you know, one of the trains showcase, I need a local place I go to so you know, I'm a chef people know that I like good food. But it wasn't always getting out there as broadly as some other people. So I've tried to make it a point over the last few months to showcase some of the good local food we have here in the DMV. And then also, you know, if I do get a little bit of travel, that's one piece of it there. But it was my little part of hoping, you know, to try and give back and spread the word of places that are doing a good job. And that's

DMV chef travels, right?

Correct. Yeah, then also got to give a shout out for my company, Tessie Mays. So obviously, you can go to the website for them, you know, all the products are available and testimony is available, and a good number of your local grocery stores, Walmart, Target Whole Foods. When I explained the people, if you want something that we don't use additives, thickeners and all the crap that makes your normal dressing go for $2 for 10 ounces, you know, none of that is in ours, we, you know, we like to clean our labels nice and clean, as well as our product and as, as our CEO would say, it's got to taste good. And don't mess with the quality.

What's your favorite product? Do you have one?

Yeah, it's the weaver habanero ranch. So having your you know, people may think it's a little bit too spicy. It's, it's got a good kick to it. But I mean, Hot damn, it's good on everything we've, you know, we have a number of good products. We have a collaboration with the Jerry Garcia Foundation, we have Jerry sauce, which is a it's like a barbecue honey mustard with a little bit of fish sauce into it. It's fantastic little condiment, good little story with that group as well. And you know, they've got that at Whole Foods and online as well, too. So we keep on turning up tasty products and making products to get better food and people's houses. Right on.

We'll have to try some of those. The habaneros Ranch sounds amazing.

I know a guy. We'll see if we can we can get you some some stuff.

Fantastic. Well, thanks so much for coming on the show. I'm so glad you made the time and we could catch up.

Yeah, absolutely. Notice flew by. It was a good time catching up with you, sir.

Well, to all our listeners, this has been the Chefs Without Restaurants podcast. As always, you can find us at Chefs Without restaurants.com.org and on all social media platforms. Thanks so much, and have a great week. Thanks for listening to the Chefs Without Restaurants podcast. And if you're interested in being a guest on the show, or sponsoring the show, please let us know. We can be reached at Chefs Without restaurants@gmail.com Thanks so much.