Brad Leone on the Bon Appetit Test Kitchen and Launching His New YouTube Channel

Welcome back, everyone. I'm sure some of you are new. But if you've been with me for a little bit, you might know that I've taken a break from the show for the past couple of weeks. It was really nice to spend some time working on other things and spending some time with my family this summer. And if you are indeed new, let me introduce myself. My name is Chris and you're listening to Chefs Without Restaurants. The show where I speak with culinary entrepreneurs and people working in the food and beverage industry outside of a traditional restaurant setting. For my full time job, I work as a personal chef doing dinners and events in the Washington DC area. Today is the start of what I'm calling season five, and my guest is Bradley oni you might know Brad from his time at the Bon Appetit Test Kitchen. As more of the digital magazines and online media conglomerates started to create more and more video food content. Bon appetit also wanted to follow suit. In 2016, the it's a live series with Brad Leone debuted, video content continued to grow. And in late 2018, Brad transitioned from his role as test kitchen manager to focusing exclusively on creating videos. But Brad has since left Bon appetit. And in June, he launched two new shows on his own YouTube channel. One is called making it and the other one is local legends. I don't want to talk too much about it here in the intro, because we're obviously going to spend a lot of time talking about it on the show. We also talked about cooking on camera, fermentation and fermentation, safety, and the art of storytelling and helping others tell their story. And before we start the show, I just want to say thanks for taking the time to check out this episode. I know there are a lot of podcasts out there. And you could easily be spending your time in many other ways. So I really appreciate it. My only ask from you this week is that if you enjoyed the episode or the show in general, please share it with someone. I'll be promoting this episode on social media. So if you see the post, maybe on Instagram, just share it to your story or if nothing else, be that annoying person at a party who likes to tell people about their favorite podcast, and the show is also made possible with the help of my sponsors. This week's episode is brought to you by the United States personal chef association. So stick around the show will begin right after a brief word from the USPCA

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Hey Brad, welcome to the show. Thanks so much for coming on.

Thanks for having me, man. Really appreciate it.

So before we get going, I have to ask just how much caffeine Do you consume before a video shoot.

It's funny, you're the second person to ask me that I must give off that vibe. I don't really I definitely don't consume caffeine before a video. I'm actually kind of sensitive to it. I take I have two cups of coffee in the morning. And that's it. I'm not a caffeine throughout the day kind of guy as much as my alarm of noxious energy levels might steer you in the other direction

just a lust for life and general excitement for the day.

I don't know maybe it's I mean I'm not always like to Adam I can also be I'm kind of you know a little more reserved as well but I'm when I'm by myself and a little bit more like introverted I kind of play plays the wrong word, but I kind of live in both worlds.

Myself, you know, as well I've always identified as an introvert and now people say well, you're not an introvert, you've got a podcast, you interview people you go out and you do cooking lessons in front of groups. But you know, I think there's different ways to be an introvert or extrovert it's kind of draining for me like once I get done with an interview or something it's like I kind of just want to chill out by myself for a little bit.

Yeah, big time I'm kinda like that with with videos to I guess it's I mean, it's a very unnatural thing right and maybe I just maybe unconsciously that's me turning on a camera even though I'm kind of not really turning off because when I'm in that mood I It doesn't matter if there's a it's kind of just a personality, but I guess that side of my personality comes out more when the cameras on thankfully because otherwise it would probably be a little sad and boring.

Well, and that's the whole new thing about food. We've been cooking, especially in the, you know, modern day media space because it's entertainment. Right? Like people are tuning in to learn about food and cooking, but they also want to be entertained. I feel like you have to be, you don't have to, but like, videos that are also funny and entertaining, as well as educational, I think do really well. And that's something that brings the people in, wouldn't you agree? Yeah. Especially

in the platform like YouTube, right? Where it's like, I mean, again, you don't have to do anything. But it behooves you to post once a week, if not more, something like that. I mean, whatever your your vibe is, and you're 100%, right. I mean, like, I'm by no means an expert in editing never claimed to be, I don't have a laundry list of credentials, explaining why I'm the best at something I Never again, never said I was, I'm just the same as the people who are watching, you know, I'm just interested in food. I like people I like the universal language of food, and the art and music and how they can all kind of come together, and how they are kind of similar in ways. But yeah, it is entertainment. And I try my best to you know, flirt with both worlds of entertainment. I don't want to say education, but in a way I write just kind of showing learning with people as I you know, whether I'm doing something I'm familiar with, or learning something real time in front of a camera, a lot of the times that I make a video, I don't like cook it through, I don't like work it a bunch, it's not something that I've nailed down, I don't I want, what I want my shows to have is, is that human element of cooking, it's not all clean. I've done those, you know, I've done plenty of no mistakes, highly zippered up highly edited, highly produced videos, which are fun and fine. But I'd also like to have a little fun with it and kind of make it relatable, you know, like accidents happening. And whether or not some shows, or some you know, especially in a TV show that people go and follow you say they watch my video, and it's perfect, everything's perfect. And then they go home, they're gonna have a different experience. And you know, I don't care what you say, you know, like any chef will tell you you screw things up, you have to be able to kind of adjust and move on the fly a little bit unless you're like make a croissants or something like cooking for me it is very, and maybe it's just because of experience and and love for it. But it's it's kind of guided by a foundation of, of techniques that I've acquired throughout the years. And then just intuition, you know, cooking, cooking from this from the gut.

One for people who don't cook a lot, I think it can be intimidating. And I've talked to a lot of guests about this. And again, like showing mistakes that someone like you makes mistakes, I think is really helpful because people say to me all the time, well, you know, I'm not a professional chef, and they get all especially like, if they're cooking for me or something. If I'm coming over for dinner, they get really nervous. It's like, well, I screw up things all the time. You know, so I think it's good to kind of leave that stuff in.

Yeah, absolutely. And back to that just making it approachable as much as as you can. And yeah, I mean, my my wife, you know, she kind of sees the same song of it like, and I'm always like, maybe you could make me a peanut butter jelly sandwich. If someone makes you there's something special about someone just preparing a meal or food for you. I'm not picky. I'm not a food snob. I'm not gonna say you know, these, or whatever, you know what I mean? Like it's just the act of cooking and I tell people all the time my wife included, you're a better cook than you let yourself be you're a better cook than you tell yourself you're not you know, don't overthink it. You're just making a steak with a salad or you know I'm saying is as simple as that it isn't as easy it is to take something that's simple and really screw it up at the same time. I think a lot of folks really kind of scare themselves into I don't like cookie

Yeah, and to be able to wing a little bit that's another thing I talked about is you know the intuition or just the you know freestyling trying to spice like people are quite often too scared to try something new like they have never worked with I don't know Roswell 100 or something like that. It's like well just go buy a little at the store try it a bunch of stuff if you don't like it no big deal.

Play around with it. Yeah, I couldn't agree more you know I mean I grew up in New Jersey and my folks they cooked ever you know I always had a meal cooked you know what are the best ingredients my mom blah blah you know whatever was on stage all you know it was probably clear is that the supermarket Purdue chicken but point being that she took the time and cooked it and we're all sat down and we ate together and that's kind of where it was embedded in me of just the the joy of cooking and eating people preparing food for her friends and family and then also you to MLS and I must say I really like it and you know, I really liked food and and that's kind of where it all started for me to to get into into food.

Me too. I have a similar background. Well, I'd say you're probably best known for your time at the Bon Appetit Test Kitchen. Your show it's alive started in what like 2016 or so.

Yeah, bon appetit was really where I got started in the food media world. Growing up, I worked in like delis and kind of you know The ski resort restaurants like deep fryer couldn't set the stuff and you know, just just more like food service and less like nice food. But I did learn the work ethic of working in a kitchen and what that meant before Food Network rock started all and made it people and I went to culinary school, but like, yeah, people would get into I saw it when I was in culinary school, they would see this glorified chef life on TV and be like, Man, I want to be a chef. But the reality of it and the lessons that I learned when I was working at you know, resort hotel type of restaurants or a really busy deli was that that's not it, you know what I mean? It's it's nights and weekends, it's hard work on your feet, low pay, no one gives a shit. And, and you got to do it again every day. And I mean, people that are chefs that do work in restaurants are some of the hardest working people. I mean, sure you're cooking, right? You're not like roofing a house, but it's different. It's a different type of it's a different type of hard work, there's no doubt about it. And to think that you're going to go to culinary school and come out and be Gordon Ramsay or whoever, you know, turn John's it's just not a reality. But I went to culinary school in Manhattan and that's really where I saw a lot of people come in again, I had no idea what I wanted to do or I got lucky in ways man say there was 50 people in that class I'd be surprised if 10 were in the food business sell same

like I went to Johnson and Wales and like when I talk to my friends or I see people on Facebook it's like nobody's in the food industry anymore. Very small amount

Yeah, well it's because it's incredibly hard and and it's not what they a lot of people thought they were getting into Yeah, like it's it's hard especially when you jump into some like New York and then go you know, jump into some crazy restaurants there where they're cranking out an insane amount of tops every night and chefs Yellin And I work at the standard grill I always go into here in the meatpacking Chelsea in Manhattan and I remember and it was by I learned a lot there but right was just wasn't one of the one thing I definitely learned there more than anything was that I am not gonna talk trash on this place because it was it's a great restaurant. It's fine, but it was not the style of a kitchen that I like to I did not want to work in that I don't need someone yelling at me. I don't need someone throwing pots and pans this big old school spectacle brigade fashion of cooking was not it for me a turned me off. It turns me off to restaurants. It made me not want to do that. Not they're all rushed or operons are like that, because it's certainly not and I feel like that paradigm has certainly shifted into a more calm collected healthy atmosphere that isn't just you know, screaming and yelling they like doing drugs and drinking after you know what I mean? Like the Old School New Yorker and even around the whole world they'll kind of restaurant a lice shot like type of lifestyle. And I'm really glad that it seems to have gotten a much more respectable diversified and unhealthy place to work and like it really showcase that creatively. I know and some people thrive in that they like that and it becomes that camaraderie and that energy but it made me not want to cook it made me not want to make 85 pasta dishes in an hour. It made me want to just say the hell of this, you know, they'll freak you don't yell at me because you need to teach me how to do this yet. Like what do you yell at yet? And that's where I was working at the standard grill when I was going to school because you know, I had a I needed to pay my rent and I needed money in school was you know the school cost you money. There was this one guy older guy and he was running the fry station. I wish I remembered his name because he was like, like, my favorite person. They're just he was like the only one that was cool you know he did he only wanted to do was go surf and he was like this older Mexican guy. And he was he was incredible. And I remember telling him one day I was like man I'm in this culinary school everyone but him made fun of me graduations your money What the hell are you doing that for? You know what I mean? Like you want to learn how to be a chef just start here and in a way they're there Right? But I was like listen, man, I'm trying to do what you're doing, you know, naive, ambitious and he was like, I want to go work for like Unilever or whatever and like develop flavor ice creams. Like there's so many cool jobs behind the food in the streets. It's it's so big that you know aren't just working the why it turns out those foods those people are food scientists and have doctorates and stuff and I was not going to get that job. But I do remember saying to that to that one guy. I mean there's got to be something cool like food and wine or Bon Appetit cash kitchens, where they're just you know, creating recipes for the magazine and here's before video a really before a print was still kind of king for for Conde Nast and bon appetit at that time. I remember saying to him, I'm gonna I'm gonna go work for that and I did my everyone did internships at a school I like big restaurants, you know, with big, big and famous chefs and stuff and I was like, I'm gonna go where I'm gonna see if Bon Appetit will give me an internship and I got lucky and they did and they you know, I was the oldest intern they ever had. I think it was like 28 at the time, and everyone else was like, Great coming in. It was like right out of high school. And I had this whole other life already, you know, and I think they were refreshed by my personality and work ethic. You know, I wasn't coming in thinking I was going to style the cover. I was like, I'll walk, I'll do a thing I'll watch I was a glorified dishwasher, and I couldn't be happier. You know what I mean? I was getting paid. I was working Monday through Friday. And it wasn't we weren't doing the same shit every day. It was amazing. I was learning. Most importantly, I was learning I was seeing new ingredients, I was trying new things. That's really where I was exposed to different types of cuisines and ingredients and techniques and people and I'll be forever grateful for that because it really helped turn the light onto a path that I didn't know existed. And that was all praised still I got was maybe being test kitchen assistant and then helping run the test kitchen being test kit, test kitchen manager. And then eventually video started to happen. You know? It was all short videos. 15 seconds on Facebook. No one wants to watch it for two minutes. Brad everyone's gonna everyone wants to skip that, you know, just fast, clean overhead ads and pans. And we did that for a while and like YouTube wasn't a thing. I wasn't on social media and nothing like that. And then it just they wanted to like get into I think they were honestly playing catch up to other probably BuzzFeed at the time, you know, who was doing like, trying different things and taking different risks and long story short, they. They put a camera on a faithful this one guy Vinny at the time. They're like just Brad's always down in the Test Kitchen doing fun things. He's always got projects, so just go follow him around. And the first video we shot was Ken Bucha. And I was like, Guys, we can't put this out. I look like I

I'm trying not to curse if you can curse. That's totally fine.

Like, you can't put this out man. This is a piece of shit. You know, like this video. I look like an asshole. The kombucha looks like trash. I'm spilling things on the ground. I look sloppy. I don't I don't like it. And well, they put it out long. He sat on a hard drive for a year. And they ended up and I was like, oh, whatever, guys fine. We shot a few more. And I was like, let's put it out. Well, it's not. It's not that that I did. But they were like poking fun at me and the way it was edited kind of. And I'm not mad at it because it works. But like, it kind of leaned in on jab at me. And as I started to experiment more, and that started to organically become more popular. There was such a good group of people in the kitchen when that started that for you know it, it kind of turned into a hive of a bunch of different YouTube shows and people and and that's kind of where it all started for me getting into video. And now I mean, I'm super stoked. I'm out. I left New York about three years ago now. And just just this June, I started my own YouTube show shows that to channel Bradley elleni on YouTube, and the one show is called local legends and the others making it Yeah, so local legends is like a show where we're out in the world that showcasing things from the kind of like what we were talking about before a little bit. Like instead of the at all, I don't hardly interview chefs or go tell the story of a chef. Unless I'm really interested in it. And it's really but like basically chefs there's plenty of people do and check stuff right like what about the guy grows amazing carrots absolutely raising chickens or you name it you know, growing sugar kelp up in me if there's a video we did with Atlantic CIFAR. Like those are the stories I want to tell the thing is that we kind of take for granted on the when we go and get that really awesome meal at a restaurant from our ship from a shop, you know.

So how did you choose who you wanted to highlight on that show? Are they people you'd already known of L? Or did you have to start doing kind of like a lot of research to figure out who those were going to be?

I mean, luckily doing working with bon appetit and in the Test Kitchen I was exposed to a lot of people and a lot of places and a lot of things and and the internet is amazing. I mean the community of people who are engaging in wanting to be a part of something wanting to do stuff and there's just so many stories out there honestly, creative isn't the problem. It's its production. I mean, it's time and money. I mean I we have I have a million ideas and stories that we could showcase. It's just you know, putting it all together and doing it and editing it and I have a really awesome team now lady Hopson who lives in Berkeley, and a buddy of mine he and who I met on a photo shoot up and he was up in Rhode Island. And those they're they're my camera people and Hopson is the editor as well. And we're just we're doing you know we're figuring it out we put out a few episodes already. And those are the early ones we're already like I feel like we're already getting way better right it's like anything you know, I kind of compare it to a band you know like we're really just finding our voice and our and our rhythm and our styles out and and I couldn't be prouder I'm stoked on it. And that's a local legend one we're it's travel it's not at my at my house right so like the other show making it which is a blast, is I had to I moved up to coastal Connecticut it on the border of Rhode Island right bred outside of mystic Connecticut, in old 750s Farm farmhouse. And there was this building, there was like a three car garage that was, you know, stolen for whatever. And over the past few years I was I was I fixed it up and renovated it and turned it into a studio into a kitchen into like a just a really great place to be able to cook and experiment and had guests back where we cook that for real big bread will grow things in the garden, we can do whatever we want, you know, I'm saying, and that's what's great about it. But cookie projects was still gonna do a lot of fermentation. We have guests up to that to the studio when it makes sense. And one of my favorite things about the two shows is, so say we're out. We're local legends. And we're, we're showcasing you, Chris, you're a fisherman. You do this amazing job handling fish, catching fish, yada, yada. So we go down there and instead of cramming, and I did this my entire career so far, and I feel like most people do do it. And maybe I'm wrong, I don't care. It's what I want to do. I'm not trying to cram a cooking segment into what you're doing, because you're not cooking, you're catching fish. And there's so much depth and interest in that. And a story worth showcasing. I don't want to dilute it. And again, maybe I'm wrong. But I don't want to dilute it with also cramming a cooking thing in there. Because in order to fit because we're not making an hour long documentary, right? It's a 15 minute video. And in order to get that 30% of your video, which is now going to be a cooking segment into this, I got to cut a lot of gems out that I'd love not to Yeah, now

you're like with their trout that they caught or whatever, like making your trout almond Dean out in the woods or something we've always becoming about

me and what I can do with it instead of what I'm here to and that showcase what you're doing. So we can learn about that trout, we can learn about that person and what they're doing and all that. And then I can say Tune in next week to my show, making it where we're going to take this trout that Chris caught you handled, and I'm gonna bring it back to the studio, I'm going to show you a way that I like to prepare. So and then I can take time and do that properly that way you know,

so making it your first video that came out you're doing sauerkraut. You also did sauerkraut way back in the early days of it's alive. So what is this bond with sauerkraut? Why did you want to do another sauerkraut video?

A because it's I always tell people when it comes to fermentation. Start with a crowd start with something like that. Cabbage is just the base. And this was the first one I did years ago with Bon Appetit was just a straight cabbage, sauerkraut. And it was great. This one same type of principle, but we added some cucumbers to it, I believe, and maybe even some lamps I forget exactly what we did. But I think it might have just been cucumbers and sauerkraut. And I just love it because it's it's from me and my family. It's just a staple food that like say you have a plate of rice and vegetables and chicken. I also have a scoop of a fermented vegetable like a sauerkraut. And it's just a it's a fun way to fold in other types of vegetables and fruits and stuff like that into it. So you have your your very base, sauerkraut recipe super simple, literally anyone can do it, and it'll cost you $1.50. And then you can riff off of that back before it's like cooking, you have a foundation. And once you understand that principle, you can work out being scared of fermentation or what it is and kind of just get a feel for it, then you can start experimenting, then you can start fooling around with it and doing different things. Try you know, different recipes try different ferments. And I just like it because it's approachable. It's delicious. And it's a great starting point for folks that want to get into it.

And I think cooking should be fun cooking video should be fun. You're clearly both knowledgeable and entertaining. But how do you balance keeping the show light maybe even a bit goofy but still stressing like importance of sanitation and safety, especially with something like fermentation? I think, you know, especially for people who've never done fermentation. There's a lot of questions. I myself when I was getting into like, making kombucha was like, Is this how it's supposed to go? So am I gonna die?

Right? I mean, it's a mystery. I mean, it's because it is scary. And it goes against what modern society and culture, especially in the United States has kind of scared us to believe. I mean, let's face it, if fermentation was No, I'm not going to be little. The standard patient and food you do have to know what you're doing, especially with certain phase right, and you can't get sick and you certainly could, you know, your food borne illnesses are a very real thing. I'm definitely not trying to downplay that. But what I am saying is, if it was that dangerous, we would all be dead because we've been doing it for a very, very long time. People who didn't have soap who didn't give didn't even know what the hell of microorganisms essentially were let alone the bad stuff that was causing it, but they were dialed in and they knew through trial and error and you know our our ancestors did, they paved the road And it's in its embedded. I think people are more designed to consume and be a part of fermentation than that he may be some believe, you know, like our guts are literally designed for it.

Best Food is inherently more dangerous in theory and bad for us than fermented foods, right? Like, who knows what the long term effects of eating bags of Cheetos are?

Oh, it can't be good. None of those things can be good, you know, and I mean, and not to go down that rabbit hole. And the old cliche of the latte looks like poly phenyl. Mala pseudo glycosuria you probably don't need it in your your fried potato stick. You know what I mean? Like whatever happened to just, you know, fat and the potato or a little salt preservative to say, yeah, they scare the hell out of me. And fermentation. That was a product of necessity, right? It was pre refrigeration, how do we get get the cabbages that we grew to a last longer but then also pays veterans he's different a Haiti return also be very good for our health and our gut, right? I mean, it's really I mean, I'm really just on the tip of it. You know, I'm, that that rabbit hole of information. There's people that are far more smarter and informative when it comes if you want to really go deep on fermentation, you don't really need to hang out with me too, too much. I'm just as curious as everybody else's. I don't have a food science background. I don't have a microscope. I don't, you know, I'm saying but I do have, like I said, a lot of folks kind of, there's a lot of information out there. And if you do your own research, and don't rely on other people to just heat you up, do your own research and get involved in a community that knows what they're doing. Or how go talk to an old person who has been, you know, a little old lady who has been making kimchi or sauerkraut if you're lucky enough to meet someone like

backyard Right? Like isn't that kimchi? Did they just like put it in Crocs and bury it in the yard?

Absolutely throwing an oyster in it, you know? And like, it just picks them brains get involved in it. I mean, I'll I'll be doing more and there's a ton of information and if people online that are it, there's a community and it's absolutely amazing. And it's really the birthplace and I think that where umami came from right I think fermentation is the the father or the mother of umami, right? That that that depth that sense that that lactic acid, that amino acid, the type of planning you got, like bro, like, it's delicious. It's a little funky. It's a little weird, but like you, for some reason, crave it and you want it and it gives that data.

Now people are messing with koji as well. It's like the next step of the fermentation. It's like they've got the basics down. And now you see all these people, you know, doing their own koji at home and making koji charcuterie and all kinds of stuff. It's it's really been interesting to watch. Yeah, exactly.

But meanwhile, there's families in Asia, that who have been doing it for 1000s of years. I mean, it's literally nothing new is the complete opposite.

Going back to the test kitchen stuff, you know, we kind of talked about how hard the industry is, and all this. And I think a lot of people don't want to work in restaurants, but want to work in culinary. So they're thinking of things like the test kitchen. But that is also incredibly hard. I imagine, is it not? You know, I don't want people to think like, I don't want to work 90 hours a week in a restaurant. So I'm going to work at a test kitchen, which is always so fun and interesting and not that hard. So can you pull the curtain back a little bit on what it's like to work in a test kitchen, especially at the level of bone appetit?

Yeah, I mean, it was absolutely difficult. You know, a lot of folks chatted a lot harder than I did as video started and take off if I could just focus on that. But yeah, developing recipes and, and really just like working. Yeah, it's hard as hell, man. You gotta it's easy to cook. Right. But it's not easy to have a bullet proof recipe that someone who's a recipe follower, they've gotten work, man, and it's got to they got to work well and what you write has to make sense. And your ingredient list and your instructions have to make sense. It has to work and it is challenging. And it was a real testing process amongst each other a co workers and our peers and bouncing ideas off of each other and just workshopping vase, you know, some are easy and some are hard and definitely not an easy job. Just better hours.

Now, are you testing all the recipes that come from restaurant chefs like the you know, the hot new restaurants issue comes out and it's got it's got recipes from all these chefs, but you guys are testing them all yourself in the kitchen.

I'm speaking from for Bon appetit. And I don't think every publication, every food Magazine did this. In fact, I kind of know they didn't, but bon appetit and would and I don't know if they still do, but I'm assuming they do. They would test every single recipe and they would cross test every single recipe so not only the person who is developing it or working through it, but once they were happy with it and done then they would have a fresh person, an editor or whomever was working or are in the Test Kitchen, cooked through it one last time he looked for bugs fall away like You were a reader and the end, just make sure that it actually does work. That really turned me on I really dug that process of it where we could slow things down. You know, there wasn't a whole board of tickets, and I wasn't freaking out. And it wasn't like, sure it was stressful at times. But it was a different, a different type of energy and a different type of cooking that I found that I liked. Did you ever

find it tedious to test the same recipe over and over? And it just felt like you're working on this one dish for so long? Or did you enjoy that?

Yeah, I mean, there were certainly times where like, there was a recipe really, like once it was done. Yeah. Like everyone was like, Thank God see later, like, no one wants to make clean them on again for 10 years. But the Oh, yeah, it was it was up and down as far as difficulty of stuff there. But yeah, really, really awesome experience. And I was really fortunate to be able to work there when when I did,

yeah, I worked for Sodexo in one of their units. But we have the test kitchen by where I am. And I had the opportunity to go with a small team one time for a week. And I had no idea you know, like, they wanted us to create new dishes for their database, which goes out to the whole world, right? So like, I was making crab cakes. And I think I spent you know the whole week on that. It's like you're you're doing four rounds cake or three rounds cake, you're doing it at 353 75 400. It's like, finished with the boy, I'm like, oh my god, I'm spending eight hours a day for five days making one dish

quarter teaspoon instead of a half of these and then

the the scaling because we were in large production. So we had to test it at the four crabcake level. But for business dining where they're going to make 400 Like what does that look like? Oh, the old base skewered like way off, you can't go from like, a quarter teaspoon in for up to a gallon in 400. You know, so like we had to see, like, where that break point was where it started to get funky. It was interesting, but I don't know that I could do that all the time.

Ya know, that. Remember how to do like big scales like that. But I could see that not translating as just simple math when it comes to, like you said with the Old Bay, like add a tablespoon at school, but all of a sudden, it's it's a gallon, and it's like people are gonna die.

Once you start putting like things like sesame oil. I had cooks all the time at the place. I was working like what happened like, well, you know, we scaled the recipe up I'm like, did you like Did you taste it? They're needed. And that comes down to like, intuitive cooking and knowing some things like you kind of have to be able to read this recipe and say like, oh, I don't know if I should put three cups of sesame oil in this dish. Like, you know, go but a

lot of people don't Chris, it's like, I know they go home Ron Burgundy, if it's on the screen, they're gonna say it, man.

I've seen that more times than I can count. And yeah,

yeah, people go full nuclear on it. And just, you know, even though it doesn't look right, why am I pouring a gallon of vegetable oil in this but like recipe says it? You know? So like, yeah, the having things, you do have to keep into consideration that a lot of folks, you know, and I threw To each their own. A lot of folks do cook directly as the recipe says, and, and that's fine.

Did you ever have any notoriously challenging recipes that you worked on or something that was particularly hard?

I mean, I'd have to put a little thought into it. It's just feels like, so long ago, I wasn't. But like, it kind of was because for the past, the last three years at Bon Appetit even a little bit more. I wasn't doing any recipe development anymore. I was full time video. And that kind of happened. You know, it went from me praying and being a test kitchen where and I was almost better than back then you know what it was just like, we were just doing recipes. And we were just working on not just it was a lot, but they were the full time job already. And then it became this like weird Kitchen Studio as well. And it worked with them it didn't you know what I mean? Like, it's hard to do both because at the end of the day, the folks that are doing the the fence that are doing I don't want to say the hard work, but the folks that are doing the recipes and crossed paths and everything and aren't in front of the camera still how to do all that. I mean, while there was a whole, you know, energy and distraction of shooting video in the same space. So yeah, I could see that how that was probably

a ticking time bomb. Well, and that's, you know, kind of now thinking about where we're all apt as it's like, you almost have to be a content creator, regardless of what industry you're in. You know, I'm a personal chef, and I don't have a team. But everyone's like, Well, you gotta be making videos. And you know, it's really hard for me, like, I'm just prepping for this dinner. But I also feel like I need to have a tripod and a camera out or I'm at this

tick tock and an Instagram and a YouTube page and 100% You

know, and that's exhausting. Yeah. And if you don't have the budget for that, like I don't really have the budget to hire a camera crew for that right now. So like trying to do that myself, and you kind of get burned out, but then you're like, Oh, well, I guess like I make these videos and then more people see it and they hire me or there's new opportunities. But I feel like everyone has to be a content creator. And I do think it's starting to burn a lot of people out. Like, if you're a one man show,

I'm blown away by all this, I'm just looking at on social media, whether it's Instagram, or Tiktok, or whatever, and how many people are putting so much work into it? And I'm assuming they're like, they're not getting paid for it. It's just like, a part of this cultural information sharing portal. digital world. That's awesome, but also kind of freaky. Yeah, I think it's, I think it's an interesting time, right? I'm super grateful that I'm in a spot where I can, you know, and I am, you know, making a living and doing, doing stuff that it seems like a lot of people would love to do and are trying to do and are doing. I mean, let's face it, there's billions of people making awesome content. And then as people I'm always blown away with it, because I'm a little bit I mean, I'm not real old. But I'm kind of a little bit of a dinosaur in that in that age, and will make I am 38. You know, I was the last one on a sick granted in my in my circles and at work and stuff. I was I never thought I was going to be doing some of the YouTube. I don't watch YouTube unless it's like, how to take the screen off of my iPad or something like it's right. I love YouTube for how to do stuff. But I don't really consume much entertainment on it. And maybe that's a good thing. I don't know. I don't I don't know yet.

Yeah, I was just talking about that with a guest last week about how if anything, breaks, like I have a problem with my sliding door in my van and I just like went on YouTube. It's like someone's got to show me how to like, shut the automatic door off and fix this.

What blows me away, Chris, is that someone actually made that video? Yes. Like some guy named Peter, who's someone's dad, who, when he got the tools, he's like, are you gonna make a video about how to fix the roller on this sliding door?

Why he's not trying to get famous. It's not like a repair channel.

It's this weird phenomena of you can share your stuff on the internet. It's awesome. It's why TV is pivoting. It's why the world is changing, right? Like the ability to share so much information and tell your story for basically free. I mean, hell, you don't need a team to create something, you could just shoot it however you want. Right?

But as these channels get bigger, you know, like you a lot of people have content teams, I don't think everyone always realizes what goes into that as well. You know, I have young kids, they want to be YouTubers, of course, you know, and I was talking to someone the other day who has a popular YouTube channel. And I asked him I said like, so you've got these, this 10 minute video, how long did this take to make? Well, this one particular took seven months, right? Like with travel time, and collab and stuff. It's like seven months to get a finished 10 minute video. It's not like he just grabbed his camera and his buddies, it took seven rounds of coordinating that's a lot of work to get 10 minutes of content out of

likely a lot of resources. So you know, I mean, like, in a world of different tiers of it. I mean, back to your question before, like, creative isn't the problem. It's like, How the hell am I gonna, it has to make sense at the end of the day, it's not a hobby, right? Like, we it is a business, right? We do want to, I would love to, you know, not just do this as for free, you know what I mean? Like, I would like to make money doing it, you know, and that's kind of where we're figuring stuff out as well to like, the balance of production and overhead. I mean, like the show making it, I can die one is a lot easier and cheaper for me to make, it probably will even do better than local legends, you know, because it is food and it is it's approachable by never going to stop wanting to also make some of the local legends is expensive, and it's hard to make and it takes a bit of a lot of editing and a lot of pre production. And you know, say we go to meaning I gotta, you know, I am the production company, so I got to pay for lodging and meals and, you know, no one's working for free shall and they'll go nor should they, you know, it's not a charity. i As long as I can I want to also be able to make those videos as well. If only those videos in a perfect world. I don't I would just I would love to just do that. You know what I mean? Like I don't Bourdain never that I'm no Bourdain, trust me, but like, I need to tell you that. But um, you never cook the damn fate.

Yeah, but I mean, I get the I get the Bourdain vibe from your show, though that feel of like traveling and, and meeting people because, I mean, he clearly kind of set the bar and the standard, right, because prior to him, people were traveling around really highlighting places and people like he did. And there have been a few shows afterwards, but having watched the one with you, you know, I guess the only one you have now. You know, you definitely get that feel.

Thank you, man. Man. Like I said, we're just getting better at it. shoe and figuring it out and just kind of flirting without without world of. I know folks do like the cooking and I like doing it as well. And I'm not going to stop doing it. But I do like exercise the muscle of storytelling and telling people stories, it can be in the food world or not, but just like a behind the scenes saying that we kind of as a as a civilization kind of take for often take for granted, you know, life's pretty easy. Now, for a lot of us, you can go to a supermarket and or store and get anything you know, and you almost one store like, and not every little you can go into any store and every ingredient everything you touch, I would just want to follow those roads, you know, like how to get here who did it, you know, like, from the guys to from the people loading up the truck. It's a good show idea. Let's make it Chris. Yeah, I'm down to like, showing like the food lines, you know, like where things come from?

Well, but and this is also a totally different skill set. You know, I moved from being a chef to being a podcast host. But my first shows were very much like tactical How do you do this, you have a food truck operator on he's gonna tell you how to do that. Once you've done a couple of those shows, I don't need another food truck operator come tell you how to start that business. I need to tease out the stories from them. I need to interview them. And that was a whole different thing besides just sitting and saying, Well, you know, what's your advice to starting a food truck? Now? It's like, tell me about you know, that time with your mother making hamburgers, like how did that impact and that's very different. And I had no training on that. So it's completely learning on the fly for me.

Yeah, staying with me and but but it's but I love it and that guy and I couldn't agree more that I was that human element of it. You know what I mean? Like the guy who you know, like, a great story. And it's it's not my own by any means. It's been told a bunch, right? But like, you go into a famous Italian restaurant here in Manhattan, and who's the guy you know, cooking the best, you know, ketchup Pepe ever had. It's a guy from Wahaca, who's you know, hadn't seen his family in four years because he's here cooking and working his ass off and sending money. That's the story I will give a shit about a pasta. You know, like, that's the story. That's the that's the that's the thing. I want to tell us a video I want to make, you know,

and with your making it and kind of educational type videos. You're somewhat of a teacher so who like in your career of cooking? Who did you really admire or look up to as far as like being a teacher? Like whose content whose videos whose books were you reading? Who did you learn from? Like, were there people you really enjoyed learning, cooking and food related stuff from?

Um, I mean, not to say his name a ton, but like Bourdain, I mean, I feel like me in a deal and 50 million other people like Bill way before I was in to food or before I went to culinary school like Man, that was the show like he got it he had there was I mean breasted beef but you could almost see the suffer agenda a little you know what I mean? He was he was a little bit of a tortured man, but he got into it and did things in the way that I would I would want to travel with him not guy the air, you know, and I'm saying like, he was a little bit more real a little bit more great to it. You know, he just yeah, he just he got it. I mean, not to mention an amazing speaker. He had a great voice and but yeah, I really dug I really dug the Bourdain and oddly enough, I was an inspiration like when I first read before realized first got the job at Bon appetit. I remember watching Matty Matheson on vice in the ad a show I forgot what it was before he was out on his own he was doing something on Facebook there was called and but I was like, Damn, man, this guy's having a blast. He traveled all over the place he's doing cool stuff he gets here I like I like Maddie show and then you know Turing will die or a couple years I was I was hanging out with him and shooting some videos with him and stuff. And

those are ridiculous like the the fishing videos with him like you guys seem to be kind of cut from the same cloth they're a little bit I think he can outdo you in the you know, entertainment video section.

We had a lot of similarities but also very different and like I was more comfortable in the water and you know with creatures man was a city boy, you know, so like, and he'd be the first one to tell you. So that was a fun dynamic. I mean, that was good. I think we'll do some more stuff together hopefully I mean, I know he's he's doing his own thing nowadays and killing it. He'll tell you the same thing I think it's the most requested video for us to do again i or commented on or you know, a when you gotta do another thing with Maddie and he says do people say the same thing they into that so hopefully in the future we'll be able to make a series or do something together in that world. I already have a title for it and a bunch of ideas. We just need someone to pay for it.

Maybe a guest appear aren't on the bear even like you're an assistant, dishwasher, or something, you know, like, just, I'm putting it out in the universe, we're gonna manage. Thank

you. I agree, I couldn't agree more. And I'm a big fan of, of visualizing and putting things out there. And maybe I'm a perfect example of it on paper. I shouldn't I shouldn't even be talking to you, you know, I should be swinging a hammer and married to some girl that I didn't want to marry. And you know what I mean, like, on paper, my life should have probably went a much different route. So yeah, I'm a big fan of positive energy and putting things out there. And at the end of the day, just be a nice person. Be someone that people want to work with. You know, I always tell people hey, Brad, I know you got a buddy sir. I'm trying to get into, you know, the food space or I want to work in intense kitchens or something like that. I was like, I am not the best. Cook. I am not the best writer. I'm not the best anything. But people like to hang people like to work with me. I wasn't on a deck. I was international, you know. And like, I remember a SharePoint timezone me. When I'm looking for someone to cook in my restaurant. I don't, I don't need someone who thinks they're the best chef, I don't need someone who knows how to cook everything. I need someone who is international, I need someone that can, that listens. And that isn't, you know, that it's I can I can teach you how to make a vinegar, I could teach you everything in this in this restaurant that you need. I can't teach you how to be a pleasant person. 100% really stuck with

me. I, you know, we would sometimes have people come in and start using the word but like, maybe do like a one day or even a couple hour trial when I was at a place. And I almost wasn't even looking at the food they were cooking. It was like how did they interact in the kitchen? Because we'd have them do it. You know, during like prep time. It's like if a cook walked by with their hands full and was trying to get in the walk and like did you go over and grab the door and open it for them just kind of thing. 100% as opposed to like how you were making that food because I want to see how you're going to gel with the team. And if you're like putting you're like, Oh, I gotta get this dish right for the chef and you don't give a f about anyone else in the kitchen. Like that's a sign that it's not going to work out longtime, long term.

I couldn't I couldn't agree more. Chris. I think it's crucial. And I think that no matter what field you're in, I think that is something that is you could certainly just apply

if you weren't working in food and food media, what would you be doing? Do you have any other passions that you could see yourself doing?

I'd probably be excelling as floor manager at Home Depot.

Nothing wrong with that you probably get a mad damn right. There's nothing wrong with that. You probably get paid more, you probably get paid more than working in the food space. I should maybe go pick up at least a part time.

Oh, you're probably right, man. You know, I'd probably do well, I probably worked the ladder up and become an executive. I probably be a millionaire. No, I don't know, man. I guess I'll hard answer the question because hard to answer the hard question to answer. Because it's truly a No, right. I mean, I've always had a job never had a problem getting a job. This one just happens to be the best one I've had. So you know, one thing my dad told me that always stuck with me too was like, and this is always in the back of my head because my whole time since I started this video stuff was like, kind of pinching myself like this is this is going to turn off any any say like this can't We can't really this really can't be happening. Right? Like so one thing my dad told me that always stuck with me was like, Don't ever think you're above a job. And I again, I'm sure there's some flaws in that statement. And there's certain things I you know, but like, the principle of it is like don't ever think you're better than the guy or the person who's working at McDonald's or the person who's working at Home Depot. So yeah, I mean, what job would I have? I don't know. I don't care. You know, I will figure that out when I need to.

I don't know if you read the comments. I read the comments I read the comments about myself but I was actually reading the comments about your stuff and people were clearly so excited to have you back just as I was watching your videos in preparation for this all the comments are like glad to see he's back I would you know make anything you'd make it must be great and I don't know if you've seen these but people just seem like wow he you know wasn't making videos for a little bit he's back now and they seem super excited to have you back making videos.

And thank God right because I did have a bit of a break shooting video you know, I was under contract for Bon Appetit for a few years and then the last in the past in the last few years that we weren't really making that much content and like I get it like they didn't really a they were doing their own thing or whatever and like I was in a locked up I couldn't go make a video with you or I mean it was like a noncom Sure. Yeah 100% exclusivity when it came to video hosting stuff like that with with them, which was fine. I was very happy to do that. But when we stopped making with it I'm not Brad Pitt or George Clooney. I can't just you know, take two years off the world does not give a shit about me. You're mean and there's plenty of better people and more talented people that are going to be putting out new stuff on YouTube. And like if I don't stay on it like, and again, this is just my inner heart talking and certainly plenty of truth to it. But you know, that was my inner clock was like Brad i You gotta you need to be working the hardest right now you're on the fence, you can either be forgotten in a year or you can go up and become something really good you know, and that's where we're at. I'm trying to take it to the level I want to to get at you know, and be able to tell the stories and work with brands and people that that get it man and there's plenty of brands that do that want to work together and and tell the stories because I do think positive storytelling and human element embedded into food is it has a you can all just be cooking competition show this right, like Bourdain left, and like there's a big boy, you know, there's a lot of shows that are doing certain things, then not that there aren't good travel shows, but like, I don't know, like, none of them are really doing it for me. I don't need to see i No offense, Gordon, if you're listening, but I don't really need to see another Gordon Ramsay video where he's going to Africa and and making some grain with I don't give a shit anymore. Gordon? You don't want any like, there's Saturday, maybe I shouldn't even drive on Gordon. I think he's, he's doing a great job. And hell, I mean, he's a pioneer in that space, but a point taking plug in any name, you know, in the role, like, it's just something that that, yeah, I'm glad to be a part of

and you're talking about working with brands and clearly needing money. You know, like you clearly I'm assuming are working with Yeti Right? Like you've used them in your videos. And you even have the hilarious almost like infomercial style with their stuff, which I you know, it's refreshing because in this day and age, where everyone's influencer and it's like, are they promoting this product because they love it or because they're getting paid. It's nice to just like, be out there. It's not a subtle cup on the side of your desk. It's like, we're just going to put this right in your face. I love this stuff. This is how I'm going to use it go nuts.

Yeah, again, we got a really fun gene. That's really we're trying to do, you know, and it's YouTube. So you got to take some risks, you got to try things out. Have some fun with it. You know, what, I've got some really good advice from folks that understand YouTube a lot more than me. Thank you epic and if you're listening, but um, you know, you got to be able to try different things. It's not like you don't I try not to look at it. Like, alright, we have a show, we got to make a year's worth of content. And now we got to be able to adapt and grow and evolve as we go. Because if you don't, then the AI don't, then it's not that shot it.

How many videos have you already shot both for both of your shows? Do you have a lot already, like recorded done and are getting ready to release?

Yeah, so we probably have about 1520 episodes shot shooting him is it that that point is the editing man editing is that is the hard isn't it's one of the hard parts, but it's, that's the type of consumer right, that's the otherwise we could put out a video every other day, you know, so like, Charlie, that's the challenge. But like, it's a tricky balance, right? Like me just being in a studio, talking to a camera, like a crazy person. You know, a, to your point before that is fun, but that's only going to be fun for so many people. So being able to turn it into a little bit of a show where there's some information that you know, maybe maybe I didn't get out with my mouse that we could put on the screen or, or just have some fun with it, you know, keep it where to where it's fun to watch where you're also hopefully walking away inspired, you're not really you might get a recipe, these new videos we kind of there's no read out recipe in these right so like but what we're doing is like in the video, sometimes there'll be in the middle of it or at the end, we'll have a card they'll have like a hold frame come up we'll have all the ingredients and like the measurements if it was a PAP of the boy in that in that thing. So where people could like screengrab it or pause it and write it down, which I think is cool for that. We never did that in. It's alive.

I mean, the editing is always the hardest part in my opinion. So lastly, how would you describe the Brad Leone brand in three words?

Who? Well, I'll steal it from Bad Brains and we'll just go positive mental attitude.

Nice. I liked that. It was almost like you had that on the tip of your tongue and to our listeners. I did not prep him for this so he's just that good.

That's right PMA for life, baby if you don't know Bad Brains, check them out. Really awesome.

I'm I live in the DC ish area. So you know, I'm not from here, but like they're pretty loved around here.

I bet I bet. Do you see it as a kind of a hotbed for Music Man, especially in that timeframe?

It is I love it. Like I'm about an hour outside of the city but my favorite thing and the thing I miss most maybe besides dining out During the early days of COVID was like going to live music so I'm hitting it pretty hard this summer. Like I'm back out there going to shows you know, ideally if I could go at least once a week I would.

Oh, cool, man. Yeah, that's one thing I miss about living in the city to a was the accessibility of great takeout and food but then just like yeah, that that culture.

Do you have any final words for your fans, your viewers, our listeners today anything you want to leave people with?

No, just thank you keep being beautiful and awesome. And if you want check out my YouTube agents YouTube, slash Brad Leone, just just Google Bradley od le o n e, and you'll go down a rabbit hole of really fun videos and time that you'll never get back.

I put a ton of stuff in the show notes. So I always link out to YouTube's social medias. We didn't even get into it. But you have a book that came out a couple of years ago people will be able to find that. If they don't already know you, they'll be able to find you. But I'm pretty sure most of my listeners will know who you are.

Well, heck yeah. Well, Well Chris, thank you so much, man. It was was a joy Chai with you and getting to meet you even though it was on a on a video screen here. If you're ever up in the New England area. Again, feel free swing through we'll make we'll make a making a video together. I would love that. It was a blast. And I really appreciate it. And until next time.

Yeah. Until next time. And to all of our listeners. This has been Chris with the Chefs Without Restaurants podcast. Thanks for listening and have a great week. You're still here, the podcast is over. If you are indeed still here, thanks for taking the time to listen to the show. I'd love to direct you to one place and that's chefs without restaurants.org. From there, you'll be able to join our email newsletter. Get connected in our free Facebook group, and join our personal chef catering and food truck database so I can help get you more job leads. And you'll also find a link to our sponsor page where you'll find products and services I love. You pay nothing additional to use these links. But I may get a small commission which helps keep the Chefs Without Restaurants podcast and organization running. You might even get a discount for using some of these links. As always, you can reach out to me on Instagram at Chefs Without Restaurants or send me an email at chefs without restaurants@gmail.com Thanks so much.