Certified Master Chef Rich Rosendale Discusses Ghost Kitchens, Culinary School, Cooking Competitions and Diversifying Your Business Portfolio

Welcome, everyone. This is Chris with the Chef's Without Restaurants podcast. So today is going to be Episode 50. And I'm very excited for today's guest. I have Master Chef Rich Rosendale. Some of Rich's projects include The Rosendale Collective, The Rosendale Culinary Lab, his events division, his online learning platform. And he also has the restaurant Roots 657 in Leesburg, Virginia. Rich is a certified master chef, and he represented the United States at the Bocuse d' Or cooking competition. He was also featured in the film The Contender, which documented that process. Welcome to the show Rich. Thanks for coming on.

Thank you, Chris. I appreciate that thorough introduction. You even got even pronounced Bocuse d' Or properly, which a lot of people stumble over. But you're well aware of that competition. So thank you very much. Thanks for having me.

Yeah, so this is really exciting. I was very excited when you moved back to the area. I don't know where it makes sense to start your path of kind of where you are. You live in Leesburg, Virginia. Is that correct?

That's right. That's actually where I'm at today.

Yeah. So I remember, I guess, connecting with you probably eight years or so through the American Culinary Federation. When you showed up at one of our meetings, I was kind of shocked like, Oh, my God, Chef Rich Rosendale is here, which was really exciting. And at the time, I had no idea you were local to the area.

That's right. I mean, I've, I've done a lot in my career, everybody, whenever they meet me, they, in one way, shape or form have probably crossed paths, or have seen something that I've been involved with a lot of that goes back to the earlier cooking competition days. And of course, whenever I was executive chef and director of food and beverage at the Greenbrier. That place was like a revolving door for culinarians, and so there were a lot of people there in in some way, work there or knew somebody that worked there. So as you know our industry though, it's big industry, there's a tremendous amount of networking and a lot of people know someone that they've worked with in the past.

Yeah, absolutely. And the internet keeps making the world a much smaller place. You know, it seems like you're one degree of separation from almost everyone in any kind of industry.

Oh, absolutely. That's for sure. It's never been more than it is now. I mean, it's like you can really pick up your your mobile device and have a conversation with somebody on the other side of the world. It's crazy.

So you have a lot of things that you're working on. If you like to give our guests a little overview, what is what are all the things are working on? What is Rosendale collective? What is the culinary lab? And what's your online learning platform?

Well, so when I when I left the Greenbrier, I knew that I wanted to do something that was going to be able to feed my desire to create, though I am a maintainer, I'm also somebody that likes to create things. And I've always had a big entrepreneurial spirit about me. I mean, I think that's what attracted me to go back to the Greenbrier because I, I actually used to run their fine dining restaurant, the tavern room for like five years. And whenever they invited me back, I probably would not have gone back if they weren't getting ready to open up all these new restaurants. And that kind of piqued my interest. And also at that time, I was running a fine dining restaurant in Columbus, Ohio. That was my first restaurant venture. That was several years ago. But we were in the midst of a terrible recession, as you recall, whenever the economy crashed in the 2000s. And really, like overnight, you saw people kind of change the way they were spending. And I felt like fine dining at that time was really right in the crosshairs of consumer spending. That was in easy thing for people to cut out of their budget. So I left and I went back to the Greenbrier and I was there for several years I took my certified master chef exam opened up all the restaurants while I was there. I think we opened up five new concepts launched a 44 acre produce farm, the Greenbrier farm. We kind of got the apprenticeship program back up and running. I did the Boku store while I was there. And after that, I still felt like there was kind of this void and you know, something else. There were still things that I wanted to accomplish. And I also wanted to be I wanted to live a little bit, though green, the Greenbrier and West Virginia. The people in the area was wonderful as a wonderful point in my career, something I point to that was that I got a lot out of and enjoyed. I also wanted to kind of get back into a more convenience. And you know, here in Leesburg, Loudoun County, you know, right. Right on the cusp of Both the nation's capital. It's very it's very transient. So I enjoy those things because I, up until this year travelled a lot. And it made traveling very easy. I live just minutes away from Dulles Airport. But anyway, I I left there left the Greenbrier and I came here. And I launched the company is Rosendahl collective. And I really wanted it to be something that could be a diverse company that we could have various divisions. And I look at it a pandemic situation right now. And that diversity has kind of helped us kind of navigate through this, this terrible storm that we're all going through. You know, there are areas of our business that have suffered greatly, but there's also areas that have been more resilient because they're they're based on different models. But you know, we're not like we're the same as everybody else says that this has taken a big toll Lot us, like so many of my fellow peers, restaurant tours, people that work in the hotel business, it's been very difficult.

And how's the Roots 657 restaurant going? I mean, have you guys stayed open almost through the whole pandemic since it started?

Yes. That's a good question. Roots 657 don't My background is more fine dining. It is definitely the kind of casual aspect of of my cooking. And it has remained open during the pandemic. We've been fortunate enough that I really kind of point to the community. They've been great in supporting and coming in. And obviously, you know, we would have days on a Sunday afternoon pre pandemic that we could do over 1000 people that we could feed well. We're not doing those numbers. Right now. I mean, and the model has changed. We though we are now able to have people in the restaurant we have opted to only Offer carry out and outdoor dining until we get to that tipping point where we feel comfortable enough to do so, but it stayed open. And you know it frankly, Chris, it would have been easier to just close. But I think when you get to a certain part in your career, you really kind of begin to audit the impact of your decisions in a very different way. And routes is really for the community. So as much as it is a something that we wanted to try to keep open, to give people a place to have some sense of comfort and good food. It's also been able to keep a handful of our team working through this turbulent time.

I got to come out to the culinary lab a week or so ago and that's a really awesome place. What are some of the projects you're working on over there?

Yeah, it was great to have you there and we did our COVID tour with the facemask and, you know, walk you through all of the, the gadgets and toys that we have there. I when I was a little kid I used to watch Willy Wonka's and the Chocolate Factory, and was thinking wow. Another show would be the Orange County Choppers where these guys would just go in there and they had this big room, this garage of just all these really cool pieces of equipment. Well, we got this warehouse and it was really a blank canvas. put a lot into it, a lot of money into it. A lot of equipment, a lot of brands that have helped us but we really have a lot of the most state of the art cooking equipment that is in there. And though day to day, it sustains a lot of production for roots restaurant. Some of our other clients are wineries in the area. We have a 200 gallon order of some sauces going out This afternoon whenever I was leaving, so we do a lot of suvi a lot of reduced oxygen or Opie packaging. And we we do a lot of that production for businesses primarily in this area. Now we had to pivot a little bit. I know that words been kind of overused in the last couple of months, but it's true. I mean, we were using that mostly for our cooking classes, but we really haven't been able to have any classes in the last couple of months. So we're not using it for classes anymore. We use it primarily for production. We have several consulting projects that that we run out there we work, we have a consulting division. So on any given day, you could go in there and we could be doing a test on fryer oil for a 600 chain restaurant, or we could do be doing menu development for a premium hotel brand. So we do a lot of that That that diversification has helped us kind of navigate through this when some of the other areas of our business have suffered. And you also, you were talking about coming down there and seeing the place well, even the layout has kind of changed because pre pandemic, we had everything kind of set up more in stations that had iPad terminals on each station. So whenever a class would come in there, each one of them would get an iPad, and they would get their set of recipes and they would start cooking. We've reconfirmed all that we've changed all that stuff out because we're not really doing the classes. However, most of those customers, most of our community of people that have come to our classes for years are now members of Rosendo online and that is our online recipe and resource website. It's it's really, I don't want to say that it's just a recipe website, because we put all kinds of stuff up there that are great resources and tools and that community is made up of people who have taken our classes, but they're also people I've met from around the world that just like what we do, and, and they support us, I mean, we I wouldn't be able to do what I do if I didn't have people out there great people that believe in what we're doing and generally try to support. So um, as much as I can tell you, like, you know, I didn't go into this and know exactly the way things were going to look. I've been lucky in some ways, I put a lot of hard work into what I do. But I've also been fortunate that there's been a lot of people around us, whether it's communities, or even people within the industry, that have supported us. And I appreciate that. And that's really what's kind of fueled a lot of the growth with the things that we've done over the years.

So do you think people are going to get more accustomed to online learning due to the pandemic? You know, we're all doing zoom meetings and doing a lot more online learning. I mean, my kids are going to school on the internet right now. So is it worth spending more time now kind of investing in those platforms, and thinking long term? I mean, I love the Masterclass website I'm sure you're familiar with. And you know, you can take these classes with Thomas Keller and Massimo Bottura, and I think they're great. So do you kind of see that continuing? I mean, you're never going to be able to replace an in-person, hands-on cooking class. But, you know, I do think there's some future in this.

Yeah. And I I tell everybody to that, as as terrible as these circumstances have been in 2020. I also think that it presents a tremendous opportunity for those that are able to see through their mind's eye, maybe a different model, a different play on how they define and run a business, or how they learn or how they access a service. And it's very easy to just get caught up as you know, I mean, all of us would just you flip it Through your phone on daily basis and it could be consuming the negative energy that's out there. And I think a lot of people it's easy to get caught up in that doom and gloom but also during these turbulent times some of the greatest ideas out of necessity can be born I mean you whoever thought that you know years ago that we'd be doing a interviews podcasts like this from from both locations and you can do this with anybody in the world. I mean, it's it's pretty remarkable and people are listening it's so it's it's interesting to have a glimpse into the way that people think about problems and the way that they think about business and education. So I think we will become more and more accustomed to accessing not just education, but a whole myriad of different services. So if you're a restaurant, or a bed and breakfast, or you just have a brand, whatever that may be, there's there are a lot of ways to reach your office. To reach your customer, you just have to maybe go through some non traditional channels to reach them.

And now as people are starting to do some more distancing, and restaurants aren't able to open up, what are your thoughts on ghost kitchens and the rise of these kitchens that you don't come in and dine? And if our listeners aren't familiar, you know, it's most often associated with a place that's just kind of a big commercial kitchen where food is produced and then quite often delivered to your door via third party delivery system. So what are you thinking about that?

That's a great question. I think that's super relevant. Right now. You know, we've we were actually looking at two different restaurant locations prior to this pandemic. And I definitely now as I kind of look back, it could have been a very, even more risky, I mean, restaurants are already risky, endeavors to take on but now when you look at With the whole COVID situation, even if we solve this problem right away, what it reveals is how volatile these traditional models are. So if you're not looking at new, maybe less labor intensive or maybe more unorthodox models, if you're not looking at those and considering those, there's a danger that you can become obsolete as your competitors out there. I mean, somebody that has no restaurant experience, could go into a warehouse and come up with like a french fry and chicken tender concept and blow you out of the water. So I think that chefs need to wake up to what is happening that evolution and I mean, take it from you. I mean, for me, I mean, I've worked from with a lot of chefs over the years, you know, we all have egos we all do, but I think that you've got to think about it in the mindset of the To consumer, where they may not be thinking about the food in the way that a chef that's competing in the Boku store does. They want something that's delicious. That's craveable. That's consistent that maybe checks the box of price point and convenience. And as far as the ghost kitchens go, we have two concepts that we've been working on. I mean, I'm always looking at the next couple of years and always trying to stay one step ahead ahead. I mean, we didn't like just decide to launch our online recipe subscription in the midst of this pandemic. We actually launched it last year, and we now we've accelerated the marketing of it in the midst of this, but we're always looking at evolving the different things that we do. One of the ways that routes was able to stay in business is because we already had since day one, an online ordering system. I don't know I may have not planned on Doing a ghost kitchen, if you would have asked me last year, but we have two concepts that are ready to launch one is Rich's backyard. It's a celebration of the American picnic. It's a seasonal concept that would only run from spring through summer. And then we have souped up which is a soup concept that would run in the fall and in the winter, and it is a celebration of extraordinary globally influenced soups, fresh baked breads and salads. And I that you look at a concept like that. And you say, Well, how does that work? Imagine being able to enter into the marketplace of a restaurant, and, and some and a customer just goes online. The portal they're using or any of these apps like grubhub or Postmates doordash does, there's a myriad of different ones Uber Eats and you can literally Access all these brands just from scrolling through and making your selection. And there may not there may not be a brick and mortar, they may not literally have a restaurant that you can walk into, but it may be coming from maybe a hotel kitchen that's not being used or a warehouse like what we have. And we actually that's one of the things that we are going to document and put on the Rosendo online, which is kind of documenting the launch and preparation of a ghost kitchen concept. And share that share that with our members so that they can see the trials and tribulations of, of what that looks like to launch something like that. And also to get some tips and ideas and say, Wow, that's how they did that. Look. They have a station setup for charging your phones for Uber drivers or Wow, look at how they have access on the website on how you can place your order. So I do think those are going to be relevant. And I think that that that is also an opportunity. But it's also potentially can be a threat to traditional restaurants. It can if you if you just stand back and rest on your laurels and say I don't have to change. We've been doing this for 20 years, it's worked. But the reality is that the whole dynamic of the industry has changed. And the change will accelerate in the next couple of years. Only because businesses have to they have they have no choice but to evolve and evolve rapidly or the date the risk of going out of business.

Yeah, I think one of the things that's protecting a lot of restaurants right now are the bureaucrats, the Department of Health, the regulations...and you know, restaurants don't want all of us to come up as competitors. Myself as a personal chef, I know a lot of people are annoyed because I can run a super low overhead. I mean, it made sense to To me, I love what I'm doing. I don't have a brick and mortar, I don't have employees. So I can run lean and mean. And a lot of restaurants don't like that. It's the same with the food trucks. I mean, Frederick, Maryland where I live, they didn't even legally allow them until, I think five years ago, because the restaurants were pushing against that because it was competition. Even to this day, you're still only allowed to be serving food at places like breweries and wineries, but you can't go into private property. You can't go into commercial zones. And right now, there's a group of people trying to get in front of the aldermen to say, No, we shouldn't be relegated just to breweries in places where there's alcohol, we want to be able to set up our truck in a home depot parking lot. But you know, there's a lot of people pushing back against that kind of thing. And I've already seen some some people pushing back against the ideas of ghost kitchens because they cost less to operate and it's not in the best interest of restaurants to have them open up so I think it'll be interesting the same way. hotels are pushing against Airbnb, and the cab companies are pushing against Uber, but I don't think you can stop progress.

Right. And those are all great examples of disruptors. I would say the restaurant industry needs to really kind of disrupt itself. I have been saying that for the last couple of years. And here we are now, lo and behold, where a crisis, like a pandemic has thrusted that change onto us. And now, rather than being proactive, we're being reactive. And I believe, you know, as far as like, even just with what what you're doing with your private chef concept, that is to me I look at those kinds of models, and see that there are going to be more and more people that are gonna really kind of reconsider the definition of work and their career and and trying to figure out a way to change All the boxes that matter to them that you can do what you want, when you want and fulfill the lifestyle that you want. And sometimes if you can't find that out in the marketplace, there's the opportunity now now more than ever to create it for yourself. I've also always been, I'm a big Motley Fool listener, that these guys those guys are based in Alexandria, Virginia, their stock advisors, and I have a financial advisor but I've always kept a little bit of money more for me to kind of, I don't want to say play with but to be able to anticipate like what I see when I'm out traveling things that I see that are coming down the pipeline of things that I think that are going to be relevant in the future. Shopify is one of them. I mean, I bought Shopify the minute they went public. They are a Online e commerce software that allows somebody like me or you or anybody to say, hey, I want to be able to sell a product a good on the internet. And I don't have $20,000 to go build some fancy website, I just want to have a monthly payment and I want to start selling shirts or whatever. You can do that now. And by the way, their stock now is over $900 a share. Another one is Upwork. And these up, I've worked with people from Upwork over the years and this is basically a freelance website. These are people that say you know what, I want to be able to do graphic design or I want to be able to do social media management or what have you. But it's a way for a business or an individual to have a relationship working relationship with a freelance person that can bring a service to you. And you know, so my point is I think it was the movie, No Country for Old Men. And one of the quotes was like, You can't stop what's coming. And the reality and I'm classically trained as a chef. But the reality is that you can't stop what's coming, it's going to change. So you can either embrace that and figure out how to leverage all of these changes that are happening in society and technology, and benefit and and benefit from that and bring value to your customer. And by the way, a lot of the things that we think about, it's not about like, hey, how do I make more money? It's really not I've never been motivated by that. It's how do we bring value to the people that we work with? Those are our customers. Those are team members. Those are brands we work with people that we we interact with, but at the end of the day, if you don't have a model that can sustain that, then You can't do any of the things that you want to do. And I think if you're just motivated by the financial rewards of everything, that doesn't really keep enough fuel in the tank for me, I almost would say that the process over the years of getting to all of these things that I've wanted to do, that's what I've enjoyed the most, and it's probably better. I think I probably enjoyed getting ready for the Boku store than I then I actually did even competing in it. But you know, I think the process is what also helps us get better. We learned we learned from that.

Jumping on that. Do you miss the fine dining kind of cooking at all? I mean, I'm sure some part of you must miss some of that.

Yeah, well, I mean, I feel like now we're kind of like an accordion and we can we can consolidate down to two Be a business that still is functional and we can do the things that we need to do. And if we need to expand, and somebody says, Hey, you know, rich, we want to do this extraordinary wine dinner for 50 people, and it's going to be at this exclusive club, and we're gonna fly your team down and do this. We can do that too. But I would not say that on a day to day basis. I think that I've I've found other ways to kind of fulfill that creative part of me because I think the creative part was that was fulfilled with fine dining. But no, I don't I don't miss it. I mean, I can still do that. I get as much excitement out of smoking brisket in my backyard, or making some soup for my family. Yeah, I guess it was just kind of a different chapter in my life. But But I can, you know, I think the cooking classes have also helped be an outlet. For that, maybe higher end creativity. And I will say this as much as the one thing with fine dining. As much as I trained so hard for so many years to be able to cook at that level. The one thing that I was missing is a lot of people really, most of the people I knew would never get to experience that they would never get to experience that food that I that I cooked. And I think that was one reason that I wanted to say, hey, like how do I make what I do more accessible to more people. And I also feel like even sharing those techniques with people in our cooking classes. I've really enjoyed that. I've almost enjoyed doing that more than actually doing it in a real setting. But yeah, I still have ways to have touch points for the that that those that skill set, it's just that I'm not doing that on a daily basis.

You know, we have a lot of younger listeners. A lot of people in our community who are somewhat new to the culinary industry and some of the things we've talked about recently are, you know, should you go to culinary school? I went to culinary school. I have a bachelor's in culinary from Johnson and Wales. I was in the American Culinary Federation, certified (not as a master chef). But what are the futures of those organizations? Do they represent contemporary food these days? What role does the American Culinary Federation have? What role do Eurocentric techniques that we're still learning in culinary school, and competitions have? It seems like some of these organizations and schools aren't evolving fast enough with the time and I think they're going to start to lose people? What are your thoughts on that...of where we should go or where those organizations maybe should go?

Well, I actually think that you nailed it by saying that they are going to be forced to evolve because they, like some of the other examples that are out there in society and in the marketplace. That to just point to that and say that "this has been this way for this long, therefore it will never change", is wrong. Is going to culinary school, and following the path that your mentor followed. Is that like the only way to be successful? No. You don't you don't have to go to culinary school. It really depends on what you see the end in mind like what what is it? I almost tell people, it's like, Look, try to figure out what are some of the things you want to accomplish and try to backs back step and take the most direct path to get there. One of the hardest things I think for people isn't necessarily even trying to accomplish a goal it's really trying to do we spend a lot of time trying to define what the goals are. And if you asked a lot of people like what do you want to be what do you want to do? A lot of people really aren't really sure what success looks like. But I think that success in general, a lot of times that I found over the years, I try and I do a lot of things. And sometimes every once in a while, success can just run out from under you, and you've never even intended it. But I think the reluctancy to be too conservative about trying new things because the fear of making a mistake that can actually stifle growth, and it can hold you in a place and it's like, you know, I, everybody looks at me and I think I'm so calculated with I do this, so that happens and do this. It's like really, I don't I mean, I I try a lot of things and I'm okay with making a mistake. You know, I mean, there are people that are better than me at different things in the culinary industry, and that's okay. And, you know, I think that I wouldn't Never dismiss culinary school I would never dismiss an organization or an affiliation. But what I would do is point out that there are a myriad of shortcomings with a lot of the organizations that are out there that, you know, say, Hey, we represent this group, well, if you're going to represent that group, then you're going to have to do your due diligence to really represent them in a way that is relevant and is something that a young person is going to aspire to and say, Hey, they get it, they understand. And that means that the narrative and the messages that we put out there, you really need to think about what what those what those are and what how are you going to like I never look at a lot of people that I talk to and everybody gets so pissed off about like a face book and all these different social media platforms. They all were just wasted. Time, you know, people were wasting time well before devices ever came along, you know, flipping through TV channels and sitting on the couch all day, you know, we've just found something different to occupy our time. But the difference is, is are you going to do something to change those conditions and do something, but there's all kinds of ways to waste time. But yeah, I do think that culinary schools and organizations are going to have to evolve, they're going to have to really be honest and reflect on the subject matter and the content and say, is this relevant? I mean, restaurants aren't even tooled right now for the change that is happening. So how do you prepare a colon arion for an industry that is going through a huge shift right now, um, I had somebody came in today To work with us. And he's gonna he's an intern and actually a local one of our neighbors reached out and said, Hey, rich, you know, so and so I won't say his name, but he's still in school. He wants to be a chef. He's really interested and he wants, he's looking for somebody to spend some time and kind of mentor him. And I said, You know what, let's start them off this week and come in from 10 till two and just kind of shadow and I'll have to put them with some of our chefs and stuff. But the first thing I did is really kind of showed them the whole world of like, what we do what I do and how I do it. And that's very different than any conversation I ever had. When I started off in this career, mine was more like, Look, you can go down this path or this path. So I think getting with people that inspire you that can put you on the right path, and then you navigate as you go down that path what's most suitable for what you want to what you want to do.

Yeah, I guess one of the challenges is the people making the decisions, especially in larger companies still are holding on to those older models. I worked for a large contract food company, and I know the mandate from up top as if you're going to be an executive chef working for Sodexo, Aramark, Compass... that you have a culinary degree, and that you won't even get through the screening process of HR. You know, when I left my company, I helped look for my replacement. And we only got the candidates that a corporate HR department pre-screened for us. So if you were an amazing chef and cook for 15 years, but didn't have a degree, when you submitted that resume, HR would just dump it out, and it didn't even come to me. So we still have these gatekeepers in positions who are kind of making the decisions as who gets even an interview and I think it's going to still take a little while to change some of that.

Right. Well, we are going through the process right now of interviewing for an executive chef at the residence club in ocean reef, just south of Miami, Florida, and I did not put on there a prerequisite said that you had to have all these different degrees and all of these different affiliations. That's part of it. But that's not just it. It really depends on the person and their, in their experience matters a lot to me. I mean, it really does. I mean, you doing what you do, and being able to make that work speaks volumes of the work ethic and the reliability the account the personal accountability to be able to do that. Not everybody has that. So there's great value there. And I think that until society recognizes what are really the things that we want to hire on that just because you've checked these boxes. Well, it says that's what I mean, just like with me with taking the CMC exam, I mean, I'm not you know, I A lot of times I introduced myself and I don't tell anybody that I'm a certified master chef. I took it, I passed it. It certainly outlines a level of experience that that most never do. But you know, the proof is in the pudding, you know, you still get in and you may not be able to execute a business, you may fail as the executive chef. So I think that you can't just rely put so much equity into just some of these more traditional indicators, because they're not always reliable.

And I'm a big fan of workshops and such, you know, like, you you do all these different classes and I say to people, figure out what you want to do first, I think your money's better spent if you know you're going to start a barbecue food truck, then you don't need to go to culinary school, maybe go take one of Rich's you know, barbecue workshops. I'm a big fan of Star chefs. I've been to the ICC, I think every year for the past 10 years. You were there. I remember you when you're doing a su v workshop, I think it's money well spent to go take a workshop with someone like you to do that and just kind of focus in instead of this very broad thing, once you have an idea of what you want to do, there's a lot of great workshops and classes, both in person and online. And I'm a huge fan of that. I mean, I think you should be learning something every day. I try to learn something every day. And I think there's some great places you can get information these days.

Yeah, I mean, I think that if people think of their career as a as almost like an entity like a like a company, and understand that in that company in the very early stages, if you take on a tremendous burden of debt, and you don't really have a good plan on how to get the return on that or you miss miss calibrated, and maybe you're gonna make mistakes, but how costly are those mistakes? I mean, to make a mistake and say you know what I wasted a year doing that I'm okay with that. But to make a mistake and that it cost you $150,000 you need to be more careful about those decisions in my opinion because they have, they have they carry a burden of you know, it can it can bog you down in your career. I mean, my mom who raised my sister and I took me to various culinary schools in the area and frankly some of the culinary schools it was an easy decision for me because it was just out of our budget I really just didn't have the the option to go to a school that was really out of state and some of the some of the bigger name ones just wasn't an option for me. So I went to a Westmoreland County Community College I did a three year apprenticeship. I think my entire education was like a total of like, under $7,000. And I had zero debt. I went out into the industry. I went Down to the Greenbrier and I did another three year apprenticeship. And I also would say that I'd say the one thing that might be in this might just be me because this my generation, but I know when I talk to other younger people, and it's okay, it's okay that there's different perspectives. But for me, being patient, and going slow was actually fast. And a lot of people want to go fast. But I think that in the long run, a lot of times that's actually slow. So I always thought of it as like, I'm going to build my career like a pyramid. And I'm going to start with a broad, a strong foundation. And I'm not going to think of it as a skyscraper where I'm going to go to the 10th floor, the hundredth floor within a year, because I think the longevity of that strategy doesn't always give you the stability that one would think. But I know that in this day and age, that paradigm or theory maybe is being challenged because there are ways where when I was a culinary and getting started, there's tools now that can really accelerate your growth and you may not have the the tools, the the skills that maybe I spent time developing, but you can still realize success. overnight. I mean of a viral video for good or bad can put you on the map. I mean, it could, you know, so there's a lot of disruptors, with with everything in our life, including the principles that we've always used to make decisions.

I'm the flip side of you. I went to culinary school, and when I came out I had to pay $404 a month for 10 years, which is crippling. And that was even more money because that was 20 years ago. So I had to start higher up. To get a better foundation in the industry, I should have taken a lower job, and really refined my skills. But when you come out, you need that money. So instead of wanting to be a line cook, I wanted to be a sous chef as quick as possible, an executive chef as quick as possible. And I was running kitchens way before I was ready for it. And I didn't have enough mentors showing me the ways because you come out, it's like, man, I can barely get by this month. There's no way I can take a job for $8 an hour because I had that kind of crippling debt. And look at you. I would have thought that you went to one of the big name culinary schools. So it just shows if you have the drive and determination, it almost doesn't really matter.

Well, I don't want to take all the credit that I made all these good decisions. I made a lot of decisions. And I tried a lot of things. But the reality is, I've always been surrounded with a lot of really great people. And I also don't point to only chefs as being those great people. I think that to find mentors, and they don't even have to be a mentor. I mean, I think sometimes people need to be more humble about it just because somebody as a mentor doesn't mean that they are any more accomplished or anything, it just somebody that has a valuable insight that you can learn from and sometimes their mistakes that they've made. So I would definitely never short change feedback from people in fact, as nice as it is to hear good comp compliments from people. I really seek out the the feedback that it's like, well, where are the opportunities? I'm like, What can I do better? We did a evaluation the other day we started doing evaluations and I spent a good deal of the conversation after giving my thoughts on how someone is doing. I was like, Well, how are we doing? What are it? What's important to you? Like? What are the things that would make an impact on your how you feel about the future of this place? And, and being with us? Like, is there? Are there ways that we can have synergy between the business goals and your goals? Can we check both boxes and align your success with our growth? And I found that by spending a lot of time doing that, that we've created more longevity and less turnover with people. But that only matters if people see that you are sincere about it. If you're not, then people will have that detector, and they know if something's genuine or not, and they will be able to tell.

Working for a big company, we always had job descriptions, and I found that they had to be more fluid. Not everyone always agreed with me. It would be like, you'd hire someone as a line cook. And then he was amazing at organization. So you'd add receiver to his duties, and people would say, but he wasn't a receiver, and you're paying him to be a line cook. But if he's actually the best at organizing, why do we have to be so rigid? Get some people in the door, see what they're good at, and then just be a little more flexible in their job descriptions, instead of locking them in and saying, well, you're paying this guy $12 an hour, so he shouldn't be your receiver. Well, that's an important job. So can he do both. That's how I like to run my kitchens. Getting people in the door, seeing what they're good at and letting them play to their strengths.

And I also think that there's other extracurricular things that you can get involved in and that also can can help you accelerate your career. For me, the vehicle was cooking competitions, and I've traveled a lot over the years and competing, I was team captain on the 208 team. I was on the team in 204. And even just traveling and meeting and spending time with other people and then learned a great deal. And I also have noticed over the years whenever I was doing culinary competition internationally, it was like, wow, these the Nordic teams are so good. Like, what what is it about them? Like, why are they so creative and so good, and a lot of it had to do. And this is from my opinion of visiting France and visiting Italy and Norway and traveling through Europe. and spending time with the chef's is that if you were growing up, and you were told that like, Look, this is the way that you make puff pastry, this is the only way that you make pastry. But if you were growing, if you were going through the kitchen, and it was a more open approach, that you didn't have that structure, or at least not as strict with that structure, your mind goes to different places with creativity. So as much as that training is there's so much value there. There's also a lot of value in And also being not held in place like a sandbox where it's like you have to do it this way.

So do you find the Nordic countries didn't have that rigidity in training and coming up in their kitchens?

They definitely had outstanding training. And there was definitely a lot of classical background, but it was not to the same degree. In certainly in the thinking of what maybe a traditional kitchen a class like classical French culinary brigade, like whenever I was at the Greenbrier, it was strict. If it was "hey, make a bechamel", this is how you're making the bechamel. So I feel like there is some of that structure. But there was also more of a different approach where that wasn't the only way that you could do it. And I think that what that does is that sends you down Different road, in your mind from the standpoint of creativity. I, you know, it's also like asking me to problem solve or to think about a problem. When you are going through training for the bulk whose door and you're in. Every month, you're in a meeting. And you've got grant Achatz there, and Thomas Keller and Gabriel cruiser and Gavin case and all these really talented chefs. And grant mentioned something about well, what if it disappeared? Or what if it float? I mean, you begin to think about things in a very different level. So for me now, I'm sometimes my team team members, if we're having a meeting and we're trying to solve a problem about fatty brisket or whatever, I may come out of left field with a an idea that it sounds like it like, Whoa, that's out of left field. And sometimes those ideas work. So I think that culinary competition, spending time with creativity with creative people, and also not being so restricted. I mean, you want good structure in your training, but I don't let that limit me. I mean, I think a lot of people when they come in spend time working with me that there one thing that strikes them is that I have such a strong classical training. But I also am thinking and doing things very, very unorthodox, you know, the way that we smoked meats, the way we do things, there might be a pitmaster or another Master Chef that might say what, but that's just my that's been my experience, and that's what has shaped who I am today. You know, I mean, I even my career path, I've kind of gone down a very different road and kind of just created that as I go and I think that that's okay. I think that The main message to young people is that you don't have to follow someone else's path you can create completely create a new one. And it doesn't have to look like anybody else's path other than your own.

I agree. And I think that's a great place to kind of leave that before I fire off a couple of quickfire questions towards the end. Do you have anything else you want to share with our listeners?

No, Chris, I appreciate you having me on today. And I'm glad that we had the opportunity to do this and it's good being neighbors with you. You're right in the DC, Maryland, Virginia area. So say hello again next time you're in Roots or the lab. Anybody wants to reach out to me. I am on Instagram and Facebook, all of the various media channels, but thank you for having me today.

Thank you for coming on. So I just want to throw out a few, quick final questions... if you had if you had one thing to make for dinner, what would it be? Do you have a favorite kind of comfort food or go-to food that you would make for your family?

Oh, man, well, it may not be what people would expect because it's not like this extraordinary creation but I would have to say like, I love red sauce and meat braising in it. You know, like a Sunday sauce. I am part Italian. My my Nana on my dad's side. They she I mean, I remember the memories of going back to see her in in Connersville, Pennsylvania. And they always she always had sauce simmering and the way it made me feel and whenever I would smell that and see it and then eat it. I love that and I don't know that even to this day. I just, I mean, I just love tasting the sauce as it's cooking. I mean, I can eat a lot of bread. And it's just something comforting. That's that's probably still my go to to mail

Yeah, we do that a lot at our house. My in-laws live with us, and my father in-law's signature thing is his marinara sauce. He uses sausage, and then he puts chunks of carrots in there, which I've never done before, but that's how he always does it. And he'll make a giant five gallon batch of sauce and we'll just vacuum seal it and throw it in the freezer. And when we want a quick dinner, we'll just pull out a bag. It's awesome.

The scope of what I cook at home is is pretty wild. I mean, I I cook every single day Every night I make dinner for my family. And but I you know, I some things I do might be kind of exotic. I do have I do have I do a decent amount of sushi. I do a lot of barbecue. But I also am like I said I'm Italian is also in my blood. I'm Italian and German. And do you have an affinity for for traditional Italian still to this day?

Do you have a recommendation for a relatively inexpensive piece of gear that people could pick up to kind of upgrade that cooking at home. I mean, I know you have a lot of very fancy really cool stuff at the lab, but what are what's the thing or two people should have at home?

Well right now and this, this, this is probably going to be really surprising again because it's on the other side of the spectrum with sous vide cooking, which is low and slow. But one of the things I've been playing around a lot is with is the (Instant Pot) pressure cooker. A lot of people are like, I can't believe you use those. Well, I'm relentless about learning, and I always want to try different things. I've been on this grain kick, and I'm just cooking all these different grains. I mean, as somebody that would maybe traditionally make a carrot puree, and I would make this vibrant sous vide carrot puree, with a little bit of honey and some carrot juice and carrot fresh carrots. Now I'm like, what if I make it into pressure cooker and I concentrate it, and I really just get a more caramelized carrot puree? So I don't know I really am just fascinated with with learning and I suspect that that'll never go away.

I love the pressure cooker. I don't have an instant pot but just like a Cuisinart electric pressure cooker. I got it maybe 10 years ago because Ideas in Food were doing all these things. It was like caramelized milk solids in the pressure cooker, and just like really cool things. And then I kind of shelved it for a while. But my wife and I dug it out again, and now we use it probably once or twice a week.

Yeah, I mean, trust me I can start rattling off all kinds of different equipment but I'd say that's probably for for the listeners. I mean, that's probably the one that probably most people know of. We we have been using in our commercial kitchen. My favorite tool that I'm using right now definitely is art. NOx blast chiller, we have the multi fresh, which gives us the ability in this this is a way that we're able to be more efficient at work where we can blast roast a whole strip loin and then put it into and it gets nice and caramelised, but then we put it in our multi fresh will say we want it to cook it medium rare and then it'll cook overnight until it in very little shrinkage perfect medium rare when you come in in the morning that not only did it cook it perfectly, but then it chilled it down. And then all we have to do is slice it and assemble some sandwiches for the wineries. And it's great, but it's given us the ability to manage almost an extra shift. So when there's people not there at night, there's still activity happening in our kitchen at the lab. So that efficiency has has really come back to us not just with quality, but being able to do more with our schedule.

I would love to have some of that in my house. It's way beyond what I need right now but like they do have

a home version I will say there's one other really cool one that's actually gonna be hitting the market soon. Another piece of equipment are dry ager, aging cabinets, and this is a German company that is making its debut in the United States this year. We actually have a few of those coming as well. We'll be putting in Atlanta and appear in Leesburg, you're welcome to come over and test it out. But they basically give you like the quality of like a steak house. It has an aging room, right in your own home. They're beautiful and there's very little shrinkage which means you're gonna get more yield on the meat but it's dry ager, we're really excited about those this year.

Wow, I need to build a r&d Kitchen on my property at home. I think it's very

expensive, but it's uh, yeah, it's and by the way, spending time with me. My enthusiasm for equipment is contagious and it afternoon with making get pretty expensive because you'll come back with a whole list of things that you want to you want to

get. I've been told no new gear at my house until I get rid of something but I still keep adding things to the mix. I've got my eye on a pizza oven, I've really gotten into pizza and I use my baking steel in my oven at home but I'm really looking at doing something else. So that might be my next piece of gear that I get.

You know, but and I know that's a different episode. But I mean, even just like with pizza as I mean as a certified master chef and somebody that has done like all this classical cooking and Boku store, I mean, I really just get excited even just about pizza or tacos. And I mean I feel like that doesn't dilute any of the classical Pat hay and all that stuff. It's just that there's room for all of it and it's all just so interesting and it's craveable I think that's why people get excited about about that food.

You know, I've said to you, your brisket is my favorite brisket I've ever had. I think brisket is really tough to nail. I think you can be vs a pork shoulder, you know, I can do a pretty good pork shoulder, on my grill or in my oven, but really getting the brisket down and I will go out of my way to drive two routes to get brisket because I can't get I can't get brisket like that around here. And that's the stuff that I go back to is I love pizza and barbecue and tacos and things like that the things that I want to eat all the time and write to be able to apply some really great technique to those things. That's what I love seeing.

Absolutely, yeah, it's To me, it's like anything that goes on the menu we always say it's like it's got to be craveable and delicious. You know, when you've done that, then you've got something special.

Yeah. Well, thanks so much for coming on the show. I'm gonna put together some really comprehensive show notes. We didn't get into it, but you are going to be doing the international CV Association online thing. I had Jason and Mike on the show, so I'm gonna include that in the show notes too, so people can come check that out.

Yeah, we're looking forward to be our first year so can't wait. Thank you so much, Chris. I enjoyed talking with you today.

Awesome. Thanks a lot. And to all our listeners, this has been the chef's without restaurants podcast. As always, you can find us at chats without restaurants calm and org and on all social media platforms. Thanks so much and have a great week. Transcribed by https://otter.ai