Chef David Burke on Creativity, Craftsmanship and Culinary Innovation

 [00:00:00] Chris Spear: Imagine leading a renowned New York City restaurant kitchen at just 26 years old, then going on to become a pioneer in culinary innovation, and even holding a U. S. patent for a dry aging process. And that's just a glimpse into the career of my guest today, Chef David Burke. This is Chris Spear, and you're listening to Chefs Without Restaurants, the show where I usually speak with culinary entrepreneurs and people working in the food and beverage industry outside of a traditional restaurant setting. [00:00:30] Chris Spear: I have 32 years of working in kitchens, but not restaurants, and currently operate a personal chef service, throwing dinner parties in the Washington, D. C. area. So, I want to bring something to your attention. Clearly, this show is called Chefs Without Restaurants, but today's guest, David Burke, does indeed have a restaurant. [00:00:49] Chris Spear: In fact, he has lots of them. Chef Burke is operating at such a high level and has so many years of experience that I was really hoping he could come on the show and share some universal wisdom that would [00:01:00] translate all the way down to people like me working as a personal chef. Or if you have a food truck or even a mom and pop restaurant. [00:01:06] Chris Spear: And I think he did just that. This is a quick 30 minute episode. We had limited time and I wanted to get as much knowledge from him as I could. You should know who he is, but if you don't, Chef Burke is a name synonymous with creativity and boundary pushing in the culinary world. From leading kitchens like the famed River Cafe, to opening numerous restaurants across the country, Chef Burke is a true culinary innovator. [00:01:29] Chris Spear: We talk about everything, from making the most out of kitchen byproducts, like how his iconic pastrami salmon came to be, to the changing landscape of fine dining and fast casual. We get into how he built a restaurant empire and continues to push culinary boundaries after decades in the industry. So whether you're an aspiring chef or a seasoned pro, there's so much to learn from Chef Burke's insights on creativity, business, and adapting to a rapidly changing industry. [00:01:55] Chris Spear: So, if you enjoy the show, make sure to subscribe on your favorite podcast platform and [00:02:00] leave a review. Reviews help others discover the podcast and ensure that I can keep bringing on inspiring guests like Chef David Burke. And if you really enjoy it, please share it with your fellow food entrepreneurs. [00:02:11] Chris Spear: And if you're the kind of person who doesn't skip the intro and you're still here, I just wanted to give you a heads up. I'm going to be coming up on my 5 year anniversary of this show and 250 episodes. I got some special things lined up and a pretty big announcement coming soon. So, stay tuned for that. 

 david2

Chris Spear: Hey David, welcome to the show. Thanks so much for coming on. Nice to be here. How are you? I'm great This is such an honor today as someone who myself i've been in the food industry for a little over 30 years now You're quite an icon. So i'm Totally pleased and honored to have you here today So this show is geared towards smaller food entrepreneurs, um, quite often solopreneurs, something that you're not.

Chris Spear: You have, it seems like a million concepts. You've got restaurants, you've got cookbooks. I see you even have a patent for a dry aging process. I mean, you've got a lot of, uh, Pans, is it irons in the fire? Maybe we should say pans in the fire Um, so i'm hoping we can translate some of this over today to maybe the small food entrepreneur.

David Burke: All right Yeah, 

Chris Spear: I guess starting, you know at a very young age You were leading a pretty big kitchen in new york city, which is no small feat How do you well, how was that experience for you kind of starting out leading a big team at such a young age? 

David Burke: Uh, well, I uh, I started  young, you know when I had some really strong experience Uh, with some good places and a variety of different types of, uh, jobs before I took over the chef job at the River Cafe.

David Burke: One of, a couple of them were working in a home where I was a private chef. I did that right after my graduation from the CIA. I went to Norway and worked for a summer as a private chef. And then during school at CIA, I worked on a weekend as a private chef. I say that because as a private chef, I learned that I had to cover my butt for everything.

David Burke: I was responsible for the first bite and the last bite and everything in between. So I, you know, I learned to, to see every item that was served, which is interesting. It's like being a wrestler. You're, you know, you can't blame it on the team. You know, you lose a match, you lose a match. You're the only chef back there in a private house.

David Burke: If they don't like it, it's your fault. You know, if you didn't make it on time, so there's a sense of organization [00:02:00] and, uh, and you get that, uh, confidence also and enthusiasm and the desire to impress, because it's, it's a one on one experience. You're cooking people for people. They know you, it's not behind the, it's not behind the kitchen door.

David Burke: So I think it's important that part of it, I didn't realize that till later on. Uh, Uh, and then I, you know, I went to Europe and I, I saw things, uh, but then I, and I was also the sous chef at the River Cafe for two years before taking over, which, which is the only way you really can do that at a young age, because if I went in as a, my first chef job without being the sous chef, I wouldn't have known how the place operated.

David Burke: So because I had that, uh, that training as number two under Charlie Palmer, uh, the, the, I didn't think I was ready, but the owner did. I, I would have never even asked for the job. I said that, uh, I wasn't [00:03:00] ready to be a chef because I didn't have pastry training, which I wanted to be a pastry chef as well as a chef.

 David Burke: But because, uh, we had nine months notice before Charlie went to open Oriole, we, uh, I went to pastry school in Paris and he paid for it. And that was part of our deal. 

Chris Spear: Working under someone like charlie palmer, I mean, that's very different than quite, uh, many of the restaurants out there, you know, I can't imagine having a better mentor and someone to guide you and work under.

Chris Spear: It's very different than, uh, taking over the, you know, the, the chef job at some random restaurant. 

 David Burke: Yeah, well, the river kept that was, there was Larry Ford, you know, and there was charlie and I came by and I had the. fortunate experience of working under Charlie Palmer's old boss for two years before Charlie.

[00:03:45] David Burke: So there was a lot of similarities already that there was a guy named Wally Maloof was a great chef who also went to the CIA as a dean and I think he's semi retired now. He, uh, He was Charlie's boss at Lako, Basque way back [00:04:00] when. That's how I met Charlie. 'cause Charlie would come to dinner at the restaurant while he was a chef at, 'cause he was at a country club.

[00:04:07] David Burke: And I would cook for Charlie on Sunday nights when I was running the kitchen. So I knew the technique, I knew the sauces, I knew some of the things that Charlie, uh, his base foundation at the Coast Basket was, uh, uh, was based on. So we spoke the same language, I guess. 

[00:04:24] Chris Spear: Well, you're, you're definitely a chef, obviously, but you're also a restauranteur, and I think one of the things that I find interesting is so many of us get into this business because we love cooking, the actual craft of cooking and food, but as you progress, you move up, and even if you're at the same location, quite often, the executive chef doesn't cook.

[00:04:41] Chris Spear: We're more of a Yeah. HR admin kind of people you're behind the scenes. I think a lot of us struggle with that The the craftsmanship of wanting to be in the kitchen all the time cooking creating versus this is a business. I need to Move up and start focusing on that and I'm sure you're in the position now where you're managing dozens [00:05:00] of things What what was that like for you kind of stepping away from the stove and into more of a business role 

[00:05:08] David Burke: even as a chef?

[00:05:09] David Burke: Early on not at the river cafe But when I became a smaller partner with park in the cafe And then when I owned David Burden, I had a lot to do with the design the marketing You I, I learned about that. Not necessarily the budgeting, but I was naturally good at budgeting, uh, kitchen payroll and, uh, cost control, because that was just natural to me.

[00:05:32] David Burke: Food cost. I mean, I knew how to, I knew how to make scraps sell. I knew how to take the byproduct and turn it into a signature. And that's where the gravy is. And I knew how to get 120 percent out of people who worked back, back in the day. When people wanted to learn, they came and worked for the right price, and I was, uh, energetic and enthusiastic and co coached them, and kept everybody busy at all times, and, uh, [00:06:00] I wish it was like that now.

[00:06:02] Chris Spear: Why do you think it's not like that now? Why, what's different? 

[00:06:06] David Burke: I think, you know, back in the day, and, you know, I don't want to sound like the old guy that, you know, uh, but back in the day, most of the people that walked through the kitchens I worked with wanted to be chefs. And they were willing to take a pay cut or to come in and learn.

[00:06:22] David Burke: They understood that the schooling wasn't the school. The schooling was the chef you worked under after school. And that was, that's the sacrifice. Take a little less money, continue to learn, be part of a really intense team of winning every service and doing and breaking the rules and doing new dishes.

[00:06:42] David Burke: And, and, and, you know, this was in the eighties and nineties when, you know, Instagram wasn't around for that, for the satisfaction. Nobody, you know, that wasn't the motivator. And my, at my age, Being, deciding to be a chef in the seventies, late seventies. Most of the people that wanted to be chefs [00:07:00] were, to your point, were wanting to be craftsmen.

[00:07:03] David Burke: Yeah. We had an E and we liked to impress. We're in hospitality. We're hospitable. We're show offs. We like the, uh, uh, the adrenaline of running a kitchen. And I, I, I. Equate that to being the quarterback. So when I was the player or the quarterback, you control the food, the kitchen, the flow, right? All that.

[00:07:22] David Burke: Then you, you get older, you become entrepreneurial, then you're the coach. Now, but you're not in the game. You're not in the game and you have to, and you're questioning why the quarterback below you or the chef. Might not be as good or for sure isn't as good or doesn't understand the way you really think, right?

[00:07:41] David Burke: Unless someone's with you for four or five years, which is hard to keep people in, in one under one umbrella, because when they work for guys like me and others, they get poached. All of a sudden it's like, oh, you're his chef de cuisine, you're his sous chef, I got an opportunity for you, right? So it's hard to keep giving, giving, giving, so that's the cycle.[00:08:00]

[00:08:00] David Burke: Um, but also I think that as, as the industry changed, for the better mostly, uh, with the celebrity chef status and the TV and, uh, the being, you know, being respected as a chef, which when I decided to be a cook chef, my parents were shocked. My coaches were shocked and my neighbors were like, why the hell would anyone want to be a cook?

[00:08:24] David Burke: You know, there was no such thing as a celebrity chef, Julie Child and the Galloping Gourmet and Jacques Pepin were around, but that there was nobody, you know, there was no Wolfgang. There was no Flay. You know, nobody had their names on pot and pans back then. Uh, it wasn't a An entrepreneurial job, right?

[00:08:44] David Burke: And nobody called you chef on the street like they do now. So now it becomes cool and nobody had tattoos on them, right? The people with tattoos are the bikers, the ex cons and the military guys and this and that, right? And the sailors. Now it's the chef with the tattoo and the culture has [00:09:00] shifted, which doesn't, it's fine by me.

[00:09:03] David Burke: I think that a lot of people got into the industry because people adored chefs and they said, Oh, chefs are cool. These are the new rock stars, but not understanding that the, the amount of effort that has to go into this as a craft and more importantly, understanding that it is a lifestyle if you really want to be good at it.

[00:09:22] David Burke: It is time consuming, all consuming lifestyle. You know, and then when you start to become the owner and the coach, it's harder than just being the chef because you got to fix all the things you've got to watch on, you know, you're in business to be in business. And, um, it's harder to run the payroll now.

[00:09:41] David Burke: It's harder to get 120 out of each individual, 120 percent because of their passion and the fact that they want to commit and make a difference. That's, that's my findings. Um, That the, uh, that it's cool to be a chef. A lot of people getting into the business wanna do the Instagram. They want the pictures.

[00:09:59] David Burke: They want the, they want [00:10:00] people to think that they know how they're doing it, but they don't wanna learn how to tie 20 loin stuffed loins of lamb wrapped in coal fat, or learn how to bone out the chicken. I mean, it's very convenient now to order everything. Butchered portion 

[00:10:16] Chris Spear: that costs a lot more though, too, because you're losing in your profit margin there.

[00:10:20] Chris Spear: If you're buying 100 percent 

[00:10:21] David Burke: I walked through kitchens and they bought fried shallots and they bought candied lemon and they bought the flavored oil as opposed to making it. It's like, listen, that's not, you know, that you won't get creative if everybody shops from a catalog. There is no creativity.

[00:10:37] David Burke: There's no utilization of the byproduct, which I find that my, my strength of creativity usually came from using byproduct because I had, I had, that was my, that was my clay. 

[00:10:51] Chris Spear: I think that's where the most interesting stuff is, right? Like what, what are you, I always challenge my team to look at what we're throwing in the bin.

[00:10:58] Chris Spear: And then, you know, if you've got a [00:11:00] head of cauliflower, why are you throwing away the greens and the cores? What can you 100% Can you keep all the greens, saute them up just like you would a collard green? Can you take the cores? Can you slice them on a mandolin? Can you pickle them? Like what? Like if it's, if it's edible, why are we getting rid of it?

[00:11:15] David Burke: We used to sell cream spinach and steakhouse, tons of it. And that's when we used to buy strong leaf stem on spinach with the dirt still and wash it and the stems were going in the garbage and I was like, save them. And we'd have buckets of stems and we, uh, we'd rinse them off and we sauteed them with garlic and chili and ginger oil.

[00:11:39] David Burke: And we sold them as spinach root as a side dish, 12 bucks. That's 

[00:11:44] Chris Spear: clever, that's clever. I mean, 

[00:11:46] David Burke: no, but I'm telling you, it was actually easier than the leaf spinach because it didn't have much water. And it was like an Asian style stir fry. Add some mushrooms and all of a sudden, now we're making money. You know, the same as the [00:12:00] flavored oils and the, uh, any of those byproduct, uh, the belly of the salmon.

[00:12:04] David Burke: I mean, yeah, everyone has tartar now, but that's how we made pastrami salmon. Original pastrami salmon was made. By me at the River Cafe after spending time in Norway making gravlax. And now it's at every smokehouse makes it. But it was because I was like, well, how do I use the belly of the fish versus the belly of the beef, which is pastrami?

[00:12:23] David Burke: How do I make a Brooklyn gravlax? Here it is. To me, that connectivity is how my brain works. And that's easy for me to say, well, if the beef belly is pastrami, why can't the salmon belly be pastrami? 

[00:12:37] Chris Spear: And that just comes from, you know, being in a kitchen and being observant, I think, you know, um, it, it's easy to get caught up in the day to day and have kind of tunnel vision, but I think you have to step back a couple degrees and just kind of, uh, look at those things overall, at least in my experience.

[00:12:53] David Burke: Yes. And you have to, you know, I think that the internet is very good to learn things and see things, [00:13:00] but it takes away from your own imagination. You know, it's like watching too much TV, right? You can learn things on it and you can see things. And it's certainly a great connectivity tool and an asset to find and resource things.

[00:13:14] David Burke: But your own imagination is not necessarily used as much as like daydreaming. All right, so the same is the same as many things. So, uh, in the older days, you know, Art Kool and Air came out, Food Art Magazine came out. You had to get a review. If you really wanted to see good food, you had to go out to eat.

[00:13:34] David Burke: You had to save up and go to the best restaurant and, and hope for the best and, and really get, or stage, can, you know, ask someone, can I work in your restaurant? I want to, and that was the connectivity, you know, and, and then, then you had the nomad sous chefs that would go from place to place saying, Oh, you got to see what John George is doing or what Burke is doing or what Alfred Portale is doing over at Gotham, uh, with the architectural [00:14:00] food and, you know, back, back.

[00:14:01] David Burke: And then sometimes the messenger. Uh, was the sous chefs or cooks that bounced around from the better restaurants saying, Oh no, they did this at the river cafe. This is how they make tomato oil. This is how they make sound. John George makes his chocolate cake. And all of a sudden, you know, you keep, you're listening and saying, Oh, really?

[00:14:20] David Burke: I know. And it was, I kind of missed those days. Uh, I, I absolutely miss being in the kitchen and be a part of a, uh, a player on the team, meaning cooking. I don't miss it. 70 hours a week. But I miss, because if you're not In your kitchen, with your hands in the pie, you're not solving the problems or watching or getting the next creative dish, you know, because that's how, you know, and that's how you mold your dishes, isn't it?

[00:14:49] David Burke: Yes, I can sit on a plane and create my menu. I can add this and that. I can do research, which I'm doing research on some Middle Eastern food now for a concept. And I've got halva in [00:15:00] my refrigerator for a halva sundae, and I've got some, uh, Some filo things. I'm working on a Brussels sprout baklava as an appetizer, things that are like, I'm just kind of tweaking things up.

[00:15:13] David Burke: It's interesting how I do it because I'm printing out menus. I'm connecting dots. I'm asking this, I'm saying, why not this? Why not that? And it's like writing a book. It's like, it's, it's, it's a coach making the plays, right? You're writing your menu. Like, and then we, then we say, okay, well, this is what we need.

[00:15:31] David Burke: Then we shape that on paper and then we go to work and start, uh, you know, we're going to make them on pita bread. How do we do that? Can we put some saffron in the water for pita bread or some curry? And then you, uh, you start to play, and we're developing that now, and that's really fun. 

[00:15:47] Chris Spear: Where do you see the, the landscape these days?

[00:15:50] Chris Spear: Like, you have quite a extensive background in fine dining, but you've also opened some fast casual. I think that's something, you know, I'm seeing a lot of people who have maybe this, [00:16:00] More fine dining restaurant opening either a second concept. That's more family friendly a lower price point or completely getting out of fine dining Where where are you seeing things right now?

[00:16:11] David Burke: Well a few years back. I'd say 20 or so You know if people had fine dining restaurants, they spent their even especially the Michelin guys They they got their three or four stars They did the fine dining they dedicated there and all of a sudden they realize there's not a lot of money in it Unless you're at a certain level.

[00:16:30] David Burke: So they open a steakhouse where there's money in a steakhouse and, uh, or they open a bistro where they don't need the 150, 000 or the hundred plus thousand dollar managers and chefs and, uh, and the pastry chef, I mean, listen, I remember when I had a pastry chef and he had three assistants, we had this and that, you know, it's like, and as the economy's changed, you don't see restaurants with pastry chefs anymore.

[00:16:57] David Burke: Not all of them. 

[00:16:57] Chris Spear: No, you have a guy who maybe [00:17:00] like dresses something up, you know, they're making salads and desserts quite often. 

[00:17:04] David Burke: Well, here's the issue also with the chefs, the modern day chef, most of them don't know how to make dessert, nor do they care. That's the shocking thing. It's like, well, when are you going to learn?

[00:17:12] David Burke: I mean, you're supposed to be the chef. You should know seven desserts, seven basic couple of custards, couple of cakes, a couple of meringues, how to make crepes. You should know some, and then five variations of those 10 items. Okay. You can make 50 desserts, Pat a shoe, whatever it is, but they don't seem to care.

[00:17:30] David Burke: I'm like, well, if I have to hire a pastry chef and a chef. The chef can't make as much, but if you can oversee the patient apartment and hire a couple of people and he, and I, and here's my playbook, but I don't think they find a pleasure in me. I love making desserts. I, I find it therapeutic, you know. And I like plating and there's where you can get really creative and not, and still fit within a theme.

[00:17:57] David Burke: You know, I mean, I've created the K pop and I [00:18:00] did that because I worked with Smith and Walensky group, uh, I should say cast. And I never thought this is one new fine dining in New York, 92. I'm looking at the way people eat. I'm like, okay, you have a season, you have a, a wedge salad with bacon and blue cheese.

[00:18:15] David Burke: First of all, you get a loaf of bread, right? You get a, a wedge salad. Then you get a, a steak with a baked potato with blue cheese and bake and more junk on it, or hash browns or cream spinach. Then you get a wedge of cheesecake. I was like, that's the most unhealthy meal in America yet. That's what America.

[00:18:32] David Burke: So I was like, why don't we put. Shareable cake pops on a, on a cheesecake on a tree for a steakhouse concept. And it comes out of the kitchen in five minutes where the dessert sales in steak houses were 10 percent back then, maybe 15 and get something out there that they, you can share to help you digest, but it's not as much fat and fat and fat.

[00:18:53] David Burke: Uh, and you look at things and, and the way we, we don't necessarily eat correctly. So there is plenty of room for [00:19:00] creativity on the plate, but also in creativity on the, in the service and or the design of a dish and how it comes out. 

[00:19:09] Chris Spear: If you had to, and this is probably challenging, but if you had to do one thing today, what would it be?

[00:19:15] Chris Spear: Like if you were starting from scratch, you knew you wanted to build some food concept, Where would you start? I'd start with building a team 

[00:19:23] David Burke: of people that want to, that have the same vision. Maybe they want to be partners. Maybe not, but I would not have the standard, uh, format of a way to front of house and back of the house.

[00:19:34] David Burke: Everybody would do everything. I think that our, our, the whole front of house back of the house thing is a, is a disaster with, with the wage disparagement, you know, and now, you know, you talk about whether it's, it's, uh, the politicians say the waiters aren't going to pay taxes on tips and Mike. Waiters make twice as much as any, as any other employee in the building.

[00:19:56] David Burke: Why are they getting a break? Right? Because everyone thinks waiters don't [00:20:00] make money. They make plenty of money. I mean, in the right restaurants. I'm sure there's a diner out in, in the Biloxi, Mississippi, where they're making 12 bucks an hour. Right. But in New York city and the major cities, and even in the In the suburbs, you know, let's just, let's just change that antiquated, uh, idea of what, what we're doing, right?

[00:20:21] David Burke: It's just, if a waiter is making 60 bucks an hour and they do and more, why is a cook making 20? And then, and why should a waiter not pay taxes because they get a tip. That's it. But you know what I mean? It's like crazy. So I would do some back to your question. I would build a team where, where the chef and it happens where the runners are cooks and you have a couple of front house managers selling wine and taking orders and everybody would be more versed and also, uh, almost like a band.

[00:20:52] David Burke: Like a garage band in the seventies, maybe there's eight to 10 or maybe they need 20 people, but everybody is [00:21:00] in it to win it hard to find. But I think if you could do that, you'd have to start out with a project and, uh, and, uh, you know, everybody's in on the P and L everybody understands the business aspect of it.

[00:21:12] David Burke: And, uh, everybody's full time except within reason for the way you structure it. I would also do it as a, uh, like they do at a restaurant. Uh, just one in San Francisco. I forget that we have two seatings and it's two set menus and it's really, really seasonal driven and it's a good experience. But also an experience, a social experience where you can meet people or you could be on a date or do or have a business meeting, but they have that kind of vibe where it could go either way.

[00:21:42] Chris Spear: Do you like that feeling of like, you know, communal dining? Like, you see more of these concepts where it's like one big table where a bunch of strangers kind of sit together and maybe they're at the same point or service or maybe different. Like, what do you think? 

[00:21:54] David Burke: I don't mind it, but I think you have to have options, right?

[00:21:57] David Burke: You know, you have to have a quiet area. You can have a [00:22:00] communal area. You know, I think that, uh, but I also think if you have a restaurant that has a prefix at a really good price or creative eating and you do, you know, maybe it's two seatings a night or one seating during the weekend on the weekends where you put 50, 60, 80 people in at 630, okay.

[00:22:18] David Burke: And then at nine o'clock, you drop another 60, 80, uh, and it's done banquet style where, you know, you have a couple of choices in each category or it's a, or it's a four course meal, but it's so good that, you know, and it changes on the monthly, you know what I mean? And so there's always something new and interesting happening and the way, you know, you don't have to store 300 lines.

[00:22:40] David Burke: You don't have to have 60 items on a menu. You don't have to have all this inventory perishable items, all this prep and this and that. Where you come in and say, here's what we're featuring for this month. Here's the four appetizers, the four mains, the four fish dishes. And that, you know, so there's something for everybody.

[00:22:58] David Burke: And they prepay, and it's an [00:23:00] event, it comes to an event, maybe there's live music, maybe there's a little bit of a video or a show, or it's a little comedy, whatever it may be, it could be a screen, you know, that was what, that's what I would do. 

[00:23:12] Chris Spear: I think more people are looking for experiences these days, like people aren't just going out to, because this restaurant has good food, there's good food everywhere at different price points.

[00:23:20] David Burke: That's correct. I think, uh, uh, I think it's gotta be good food. And I think we gotta get back to the, uh, the recognition of walking in a restaurant. I think open table and these reservation platforms where there's a disconnect from the voice on the phone of calling up and making a reservation and saying, Mr.

[00:23:40] David Burke: Smith, we'll look forward to seeing you. Um, and I'll try to give it a table. Yeah, it's gone. So then, you know, you have an open table that's, that's handling your business or whatever the platform is, the communication is on a computer and then you just, most restaurants have, you know, a 21 year old hostess there who doesn't know it, that [00:24:00] has no idea who you are, how many times you came in and, uh, nor do they give a shit if you come back or try to remember your name.

[00:24:07] David Burke: So that to me is like, it's, and it happens in my restaurants. It's a disconnect. It's like, where is the, the proprietor, the hospitality, the, because here's what happens to my point earlier, when they cut, when the margins shrink, which they have food and labor are killing food costs and labor costs are harder than ever.

[00:24:28] David Burke: So, what happens, you get rid of the sommelier, you get rid of the pastry chef, you get rid of the maitre d right? Now, the manager works the front door, you hire a hostess. So, all of those, um, you know, you get rid of the butcher. Because now you can buy the meat cut and the fish cut, all that cost you more, cost you more money to buy.

[00:24:46] David Burke: And then you're not selling as much wine because you don't have a sum that you have on a salary. And that's what I've experienced in some of our restaurants. Some of them, we still have that, you know, but it's also, how do you balance it all? So the high, [00:25:00] high level restaurants that have all that left, their payrolls are extremely high, but their check average is high.

[00:25:05] David Burke: And we have a check average above 200 and in certain cities. Um, that's, there's only a certain majority of people that can afford that. So you, they're, they're cooking for an elite, uh, clientele, the foodies, the well heeled, et cetera, et cetera. And the expenses that go with that are very high as well. Um, so yes, to go way back to what you said, people do, uh, start doing fast casual concepts or steakhouse, same as the clothing designers, the ones at the high end and the cars, you know, right?

[00:25:37] David Burke: If you look at, um, Uh, Mercedes, you know, 15, 20 years ago, they started making affordable Mercedes, right? You look at the watch companies, they start making affordable. Uh, some of the clothing designers, they, they used to have their clothes in only certain stores. Then they went to Kmart. They made more money at Kmart than they ever would have made at the high end because the masses, they feed the masses.

[00:25:59] David Burke: [00:26:00] Same as many businesses, you know, they, they changed the label maybe and they serve and they sell it away. 

[00:26:08] Chris Spear: Yeah, it's something I've seen even with people in the personal chef business, you know, like I, like many of my contemporaries, we serve the, like you had mentioned, like higher end, higher ticket, finer dining, but I see a lot of them pivoting towards like the meal prep and the less expensive stuff.

[00:26:21] Chris Spear: So, um, you know, finding, finding where the market fit is best for you. The 

[00:26:26] David Burke: stress level at fine dining and I don't know if it's only fine dining because in some of the fine dining restaurants that I'm sure you've seen the bear and all that, right, where you've got one guy doing one thing that you can't afford to put a cook in the weeds at, at, at a three star michelin, right?

[00:26:42] David Burke: So you've got enough labor there. And again, there's where people are coming in to learn and work for free or what have you. Um, but when you're in the middle of the road restaurant and you're turning and burning that there's the real athlete cook, right? There's the, there's the, there's a piano [00:27:00] player or the drummer on the line putting out x y z.

[00:27:03] David Burke: With precision and good fit. And that's when you're a line cook at a certain age, that's fun. You bring it on. Right. And then you got the other side was like, oh my God, we've got 300 covers again. This is crazy. Right. So the, you got to get that, that winning energy, you know, you got to get to find the people that say, chef, give me the ball.

[00:27:23] David Burke: I'll do the special. I want to be, I can take another dish. So and so called out sick. I'll pick up his two dishes. You know, that's what you want. And that's the culture you got to build. And, uh, but there's so many moving parts in the restaurant business. Um, that there's things that could go wrong, what will go wrong.

[00:27:40] David Burke: And there's also the joy of having a really good night and what you're changing a menu. I mean, there's a lot of highs and lows, right? And that's part of what we thrive on, and that's the, that's the creative aspect and the personalities that are in this business for a long time. Um, there's never a dull [00:28:00] moment.

[00:28:00] Chris Spear: Well, when all is said and done, what do you hope you're remembered for? You've done a lot of things, but is there one or two singular things that you're really proud of and that you want people to say, yeah, that's what David was all about? 

[00:28:11] David Burke: You know, I've, uh, I'm writing a book now and I'm reading some of the quotes from people that have worked for me.

[00:28:16] David Burke: 'cause I had my writer call a hundred of them, uh, chefs and people I've worked for and this and that. And, uh, I think that I, I, what I'm getting out of that is that I've taught a lot of people that they can do what they, that they thought they couldn't. Where I had to think outside, you know, but there was no box and that, you know, and some people are like, listen, some of the quotes, like he was the hardest guy to ever work for at that time and I could only last XYZ, but I own two restaurants and two houses.

[00:28:48] David Burke: And if I didn't work for him, I would. So there's kind of that thing. And I'd never really thought about that question. But it is a good question. And I would think that the mentoring and teaching [00:29:00] people would be one of them. I mean, I'm certainly a creative guy and, uh, but I think hospitality is, um, saying, yes, I'm, I'm a, I'm a can do guy.

[00:29:11] David Burke: Let's do it. You know? 

[00:29:14] Chris Spear: Well, thanks so much for coming on the show. Is, um, is there anything you want to leave our listeners with before we get out of here today? Support the local restaurants. Support the local restaurants. That's a great cause. 

[00:29:24] David Burke: Support the independents because it's harder than ever. And we're competing with tank pricing and, uh, You know, and ask questions, you know, and then, you know, get to know the local loves and support the locals.

[00:29:36] David Burke: Because even though the local chefs, we all compete with ourselves locally, it's hard for us to compete with the, uh, the chains that the chains are, uh, the buying power. And it's not always about price. 

[00:29:49] Chris Spear: Nice to meet you. Thanks for coming on the show. It was an honor having you today. 

[00:29:53] David Burke: Thank you for the call.