Chef Virginia Willis on Writing Cookbooks and Her Wellness Journey

Welcome to the Chefs Without Restaurants podcast. I'm your host Chris spear. On the show. I have conversations with culinary entrepreneurs and people in the food and beverage industry who took a different route. There caterers research chefs personal chefs cookbook authors, food truckers, farmers, cottage bakers and all sorts of culinary renegades. I myself fall into the personal chef category as I started my own personal chef business perfect little bites 11 years ago. And while I started working in kitchens in the early 90s I've literally never worked in a restaurant. This week of James Beard Foundation Award winner chef Virginia Willis. She was the TV kitchen director for Martha Stewart, Bobby Flay and Natalie Dupree and executive producer for Epicurious TV on the Discovery Channel. She's made cookies with Dwayne The Rock Johnson, forged for berries in the Alaskan wilderness, harvested capers and Cecily and beguiled celebrities such as Jane Fonda and Bill Clinton with her cooking, but it all started in her grandmother's country kitchen. Virginia is the author of a number of books including lighten up y'all basic to brilliant y'all, okra and grits. On the show, we discuss how she got into writing cookbooks how her cooking style has changed, and her wellness journey which led her to losing 70 pounds. We talk about food media and credible sources for recipes and cooking tips. Virginia is also passionate about sustainable seafood, and we discuss that as well. And if you enjoyed this episode, later on the week, we're going to be releasing what it means to be a chef, which I cut from this episode. And I'm going to release as a little mini clip as I've been doing with some of our other conversations. So if you love the Chefs Without Restaurants podcast, the best thing you can do is share it. I would love if you not only share this episode, but tell people about the show in general. And if you're so inclined, please leave us a rating and review on iTunes, Spotify or wherever else you can rate podcasts. And the show will be coming up right after a word from our sponsor. Looking to make better pizza. How about bagels, bread or English muffins? Then you need a baking steal. Don't just take my word for it. Kenji Lopez alt of serious eats and the Food Lab said this is the answer I've been waiting for to produce consistently awesome pizza over and over. I've had my baking sale for a number of years and I absolutely love it. Besides baking bread goods in the oven, it's the best way for me to make tortillas at home. both corn and flour, as well as an amazing Smashburger. And if you want to hear the whole baking steal story, I have founder Andrus legs done as a guest this season. So that episodes should be dropping in a couple weeks. In the meantime, I'm going to drop a link in the show notes so you'll be able to pick up your own breaking steel. Hey, Virginia, welcome to the show. Thanks so much for coming on.

Thank you so much for having me. It's a pleasure to be here.

I'm excited to talk to you today. I love your books, and I've been following your work for probably a little bit over a decade now.

Wow. Yeah, no, my first book my very first book came out in 2008. So yeah, it's been it's been a minute.

Wow, how did I mean I guess just jump right into that like the process of starting a cookbook, like what made you decide to write a cookbook in the first place?

Well, my job at the time, so I was in a kitchen director at Martha Stewart and during for many years or so years rather. And during that time, the idea of me writing my own cookbook, sort of percolated up to the surface Because of course, I had been helping other people write their cookbooks for a while, I started out apprenticing with Natalie and I have Natalie de prix. And then I worked with Ann Wilson. And she wrote a cookbook and then working with Martha Stewart and working on her cookbooks. So it was, you know, in the early 2000s, it's like, Hmm, well, maybe I need to write a quick fix. So that's, that's kind of where it came about. It took took a little bit to get it going.

Yeah, it's so fun. It's like a diary of sorts, right? Like, I look back at the work I've done, like I blog and keep recipes and just kind of seeing your evolution and just, you know, what you're into at the time of what your cooking style is, I'm sure it's fun to kind of look back on those earlier days when you have recipes and kind of see an evolution.

No, it really is. And it's kind of interesting, because I think that one thing is that when I look back, you know, to the food that I was cooking, and the recipes that I were teaching in, say cooking classes or something, you know, 1015, even 20 years ago, my cooking was a lot more international, actually, because I was living and working in New York and exposed to a lot of different kinds of food. And then when my first book came out, bon appetit, y'all in 2008, in a way that sort of shepherded me into mostly Southern cooking. And of course, I am Southern, but I'm French trained. And, you know, I've traveled a good deal and been fortunate enough to so in a way, when I realized that only recently, and I was looking at these old recipes, and I thought, wow, I used to really put a lot more international foods out there. So I hope to broaden that box once again.

Yeah, we were talking before I started recording that that's how I found your work as someone who moved from New England down to the Mid Atlantic, you know, I really got into southern food, my wife and her family from Virginia. When I moved down here, I I fell in love with the food. And I've traveled down to Georgia and Charleston a bunch of times. And so I started you know, picking up all these cookbooks about Southern cooking and food things that I had never had, you know, I'd never had pimento cheese, I'd never had grits until you know, like 15 years ago. Right. That's how I found your your first book. I'd like to jump back a little bit and talk about how you got into food and cooking. Did you always grow up loving food? Was it something your that was really important to your family? And then I know you went to culinary school. So just kind of talk a little bit about how you got into this food world?

Yeah, sure. So my grandmother was a great cook, my mother is still a great cook. Food was a tremendous part of our family. You know, my grandfather had a garden, my family had a garden, you know, living in the South, we have like a 12 month growing season, really, truly 12 month growing season. So food was always at the forefront of everything. And everything took place in the kitchen, because there's always something going on in the kitchen. So of course, as a little kid, I wanted to be hanging out with you know, my, my, my grandmother, my mother in the kitchen. So that's where the the love of cooking started, when I was quite young. And just always love to cook and then went to college, got a degree in history, graduated from the University of Georgia gotta say Go Dawgs on that note. And I wound up in retail management, I was really like, oh gosh. And I remember having this sort of epiphany at 25, which, you know, it's kind of funny to think about an epiphany at 25. But I was miserable. And I thought I can't do this. I don't want to do this. And I started kind of thinking about what do you really love? What do you love to do? What do you like to do, and I've always had always loved to cook. So that's where it all started. It was just that natural transition from loving food and cooking and then turning it into a career.

I love the idea of like the kitchen as being the focal point of the house to you know, where things are going on. And I feel like not all households, but for a number of years, I kind of like fell out a little bit. And now we're seeing kind of the return to more people cooking at home and having it become a family thing. And I really love that. Similarly, the same with me. I say my mom stayed home with me until I went into middle school. And that meant that we had a dinner on the table every night. You know that? Which sounds weird when you say it out loud. But like in the 80s You know, when mom and dad were both working and there was microwave dinners and more and more fast food like less people were cooking in the kitchen, but I still had that at home and that kind of shaped who I became as like a cook.

No, for sure. No, I 10,000% agree. You know, it's like, people got busier. My mom didn't work for a period of time when I was young. And then you know, and I think that makes a huge difference. Most households are like you know, double income both parents are working. And, you know, it really did change and the proliferation of fast food and takeout and things like that. So yes, it was very much part of my life growing up and doing my homework at the kitchen table. And it's so encouraging to see now, like new homes are being built with the big kitchen islands, and the kids are doing their homework at the island. And, you know, I feel like the days of the formal dining room are, you know, are a little bit past the way that homes are being built now. And it really is like people love to pay that like to hang out in the kitchen.

I work as a personal chef. And so, you know, I see different houses every night almost. And just to see kind of the evolution, especially with the newer homes, what they're like, and everyone's got these giant islands in there. And you know, a little eat in kitchen or something similar. So you went to culinary school, what did you start doing when you got out of school?

Well, let me back up for a second. I did get a culinary school. But before I went to culinary school, what happened was when I realized when I had that epiphany, I realized that I wanted to get some experience and and I really feel strongly about that, like a lot of people that go I want to be a chef or I want to go, I want to do this, I want to do that. It's like you need to go work in a restaurant. And I know that that's weird, especially here. But my my point with that is it teaches you a lot in a very short period of time and it is possible to craft a career not working in a restaurant and food but it is not easy, right. So what I did before I went to culinary school was I apprenticed with Nathalie Dupree, who's this Grondahl of Southern cooking used to be based here in Atlanta. I apprenticed with her for a year kept my day job in retail management at the department store. And on my days off, I went to work with Natalie. And over the course of that year realized that this was something that I wanted to do, and that I needed to improve my skill set and wanted to go to culinary school. So I actually went to culinary school near where you are now, it used to be in gaithersburg it was or used to be in Bethesda and then moved together as part. But macadam II de cuisine was the culinary school in the DC area for a long period of time. So I went to a one year program there. And then after that, I immediately came back and I worked a little bit from Natalie. But basically, within the year, I was off to France to get some more to get some more experience.

I know, Academy clothes, it's only been a handful of years, like four years or so maybe because I even I went there for something I don't even remember. But I did like a workshop when I was there. Oh, I think that's where I learned to be a personal chef, I think they offered like a three day course or something. And it was like, right before they close. And this is probably like 2012 Give or take.

Yeah, no, I think that so that when I was the last class that attended in Bethesda, and it was really, it was a great program, it was a really small school, you know, I knew that I didn't want to go to one of the larger schools like the CIA, because it's an associate's degree already had a bachelor's degree. I really appreciated the small size. And I think that Whereas of course, like, the CIA is an incredible school, Johnson and Wales are a lot of different culinary programs, you know, the reality is, is that they can be very expensive. And I think it's very important for if people are interested in food and interested in a career in food and want to go that route, that they, they, they do the research, and they make sure that that's the that's the best use of their time and money, and that the school is lined up with what they want to do when they get out.

I mean, ultimately, I'm very happy with the path I ended up with, but I tell people, I went to Johnson and Wales and you know, came out with like, $80,000 in student loan debt, right, which was, I will always remember it was $404 a month for 10 years is what I got stuck with. And then that limited the jobs I took, because, you know, the really cool jobs I wanted to go work at, were looking to pay, you know, like, at the time and 1998 like six something an hour, right? I was like I like I'll barely be able to live taking that. So then I took like corporate food service jobs and, you know, things that end up being good jobs, but they were paying me 11 Something an hour with full benefits and all that. Right. And that, you know, my whole culinary career was literally shaped by the fact that I couldn't afford to take the jobs that I kind of wanted to take.

No Sure. And I think that that's true. I mean, if you think about the fact that I mean like you know, the reality is is it no matter what part the culinary profession you're in even, you know, even executive chefs it's we're not NBA basketball players, right? This is not a super high paying job. And there are there are better and worse but it can be a super like your route and doing corporate food service. The beginning is a really practical path. And I know that plenty of people that have worked in the restaurant industry, and they get tired of the long hours and the long and the weekends and the overnight, you know, working at night and never seeing their kids and stuff like that. And I know, plenty of chefs over the years that have transitioned out of restaurants, to working to working in more, more nine to five food jobs.

Well, and you've had a lot of non restaurant jobs. So how did you kind of get into that you mentioned, you know, you're working with Martha Stewart at some point, you helped other people with cookbooks? What was kind of that path that got you into food that wasn't working in a restaurant?

Yes. Thank you. Um, so that's a great question, because it is kind of crazy. My first job, as I mentioned, was with Natalie do pre and that was as a as an apprentice on our TV cooking show. So from the very beginning, I was exposed to another part of the industry, the more of the media side of it, and television and production, and cookbooks and magazines. And she, Natalie had a monthly magazine column and the Atlanta magazine. And so from the beginning, my exposure was that now I did start working in restaurants early on, because I had to pay for school. And you know, it was good, not only paying for school, but it's also getting skills. So after Natalie culinary school, after culinary school, went to France, I worked in restaurants in France. And then when I came back, I sort of just stayed on that media end of things and, and continued working in food television. So you know, when people watch all those cooking shows that phase got to come from somewhere. That seems

like a really cool thing. And you know, food media is becoming an even bigger thing. Now I see all these people who they want to get in food and don't even want to work in a restaurant, they want to just create food content, or do cookbooks recipe development. And I really don't think that that's going to slow down anytime soon.

No, I don't think so. And I know that, um, you know, working in a restaurant is not the end, not the be all end all. I do always suggest it for people. Like I mentioned before, I think that especially if you are in a good situation with a chef, that he or she is well trained, and they have a tight kitchen. It's it's a great place for people to learn certain skills to learn about, you know, working in a small space working with other people. There's a lot about, like, say, working on a line that doesn't seem like it has anything to do like serving 200 people on a hotline on a Friday night. What does that have to do with food television? Well, it taught me to be organized, right? It taught me to be organized, it taught me to, you know, work clean. But it's it's it's only as you know, it's just like anything, it's only as good as the experience. So I always encourage people like if they are just even if they're, even if they're like taste testing it right, that to to work for the absolute best to try to get the best experience and the best education possible. While you're working.

And working in food, food should taste good. And one of the things I see is a lot of these people creating food content are not trained as cooks or chefs haven't worked in restaurants, and they're making food that looks nice on a plate photographs. Well, it's a viral video, but like is this something you could put on a menu at a restaurant that tastes good? That would sell you know, long before I was creating food content, I had 20 plus years working in kitchens and you know, so at some point, you do have to have some kind of working knowledge of the food business or you should to kind of make that content that works. You know, if you're gonna be developing recipes for people to cook at home, you have to make sure they're gonna work well and tastes good.

Well, I agree and I don't mean to sound like some grumpy old lady about it, but I think that we're both aware of the fact that that is simply not the case. Right? You know, I mean, they're all these data The Tick Tock videos, Instagram reels whatever you know, I can't tell you how many times I've seen a super famous food blogger with completely inaccurate information on the on their blog post you know, the five mother sauces which is like is eat should be able to like rattle off the top of your head you know, they're incorrect so um, it's just like anything right? Like, I mean, anyone can call themselves an expert and the truth is, is with are ready to press you know, print button or you know, Launch button or post button or whatever. We all have the ability to put information out in the world and sometimes what is you know, popular isn't always right. So, but I do think at the end, that the good content does rise to the top. So,

you know, one of my things that I always want to share that because, you know, if you were to just like most people aren't Cokes, just Google, chicken parmesan, you know, what's going to come to the top is going to be like all recipes calm or something like that one of those sites, it's like, really find the chefs that you think are credible, or websites and kind of then put that and you know, like, I'm a huge fan of like, serious eats and the Food Lab and the work that they do. So it's like, if I'm looking for a recipe, I'll put, you know, carrot cake, the food lab, or go to say, the eating well, website, or, you know, bon appetit instead of just like searching for some broad thing, because there's so much information out there, it's like, I kind of want to make sure that where I'm pulling recipes from, if I'm doing a search is coming from someone who kind of knows what they're doing. Exactly,

and it's no different than like looking for a plumber, right? You know what I mean? Like you want you can look someone up online, but once you found them online, you want to make sure that they know what they're talking about. And so, um, you know, all recipes, I know that they have a test kitchen, and they do they do good work. However, there are some, some crowdsourced recipes that are on some of these major media sites. And that's no different from the blogger, that's, you know, never made a recipe before, but it photographs beautifully. And it's not really tested, because she just made it and photographed it at the same time, you know, so it's always important to know your sources, it doesn't matter. You know, whether it's a you know, you know, whatever it is, there's a lot of misinformation out there. So you're right, it's super important to, to make sure that you know, the source, and that you can trust the information.

So, kind of getting back to the cookbooks, I've seen an evolution kind of looking at your books, and, you know, the progression there. And I know, one of your books was lighten up y'all, which I thought was really great, because it took some of those southern classics and made them a little healthier. So that was what like 2015 I think that came out.

Yeah, that was 2015. Well, there are two parts to it. And thank you for noticing that. So some of what I did was I lightened things up. I just made some small tweaks. It didn't make a huge difference for the recipe, but it still honored the original intent. But you know, face it, oven fried baked oven fried chicken and fried chicken. The only thing in common is the chicken right? That's not oven fried chicken does not taste like fried chicken. So an another piece of that is that there are lots of southern recipes that are actually healthy, you know, they're actually healthy to begin with, you know, we have, like I mentioned earlier with this 12 month growing season, we have the ability to have fresh fruits and vegetables out of the ground or off a tree 12 months out of the year. So there are healthy southern recipes that people are just not aware of, because they think that everything in the south is fried. But But yeah, I lighten up y'all as is as a special place for me, because I think it alerted people to the fact that, you know, all southern food is not unhealthy.

And why did you want to do that book?

For me, then it was a very much a personal journey. Right, like so I and I once again, I've sort of come back to this place. So in 2015, you know, after being in food and beverage for so long, you know, obviously not in the restaurants, but it just in my life is like Okay, wow, I'm getting a little off track here. And you know, I need to lose a little weight, I need to lose some weight. So I lost weight. And as I lost the weight, I was developing these recipes. So and I'm proud to say that that book did win James Beard Award, which of course is one of the greatest accomplishments of my career. And and I get I reach for that book a lot.

So I want to continue this with kind of health and wellness because I know you've been on a health and wellness journey and what have you lost something like 60 pounds? Is that about lost?

Yeah, like sick 65 or 70 pounds after this weekend and chicken and dumplings, it's probably a bit closer to 65

is amazing. I mean, it's so much work because I've gone up and down for years. I recently lost about 40 pounds, I put a little bit back on. And it's just kind of like getting into the routines winter is really hard for me because walking was huge. And I'm in a cold weather climate like today, I'm not getting out there and getting my 10,000 steps today as much as I would like to and like figuring out what's going to work for me in cold weather.

So what happened was 2015 I wrote that book 2016 Or won a Beard award 2017 My partner and guy my partner at the time got cancer, you know, 2018 or parents moved in with us and you can see where this is going right like I was eating my feelings and eating and drinking my feelings and I put back on a lot of the weight that I've lost. And so I guess it was two 2018 Once again, I had that sort of like, wow, okay, I gotta do something about this, this is not going in the right direction. But what is really interesting for me, and the the feeling and the, the the heart, my heart behind it is that I now realize that I wasn't fully bought in a couple years ago, right. So I had wanted to lose 50. And I was only able to lose 40 and 2015. And then when this most recent health journey came about, I knew it was a greater number than 50. But I kind of like just put my blinders on and headed in that direction. Right, it was just like, sort of, I want to be healthy and strong. It wasn't about like a specific number. And and now what has happened, which is an indicator of the success is that in 2015, when I won that Beard award, I'd actually put on a little bit of weight already. And this turned around, I've lost, let's just say 65 pounds, and I've kept it off for more than a year, I have changed my relationship with food. And that is what is the key to success. And you know how hard it is in this business. There's so

much that goes into it. And I find that it's, it's just tough with the lives that we live with both time and cost, right? Like, I now what I'm doing. So I mean, there's a whole bunch of this button going on, but I hurt my back in November, went to a chiropractor, he said I had six subluxations in my spine. And you know, on a scale of like one to four I'm at like a three for degradation. So it's like that came on, and I've had all these things it's like, so I started going to a chiropractor, which is amazing. Start doing physical therapy, I'm getting stronger, some weights coming off. But like just looking at that it's like I go to chiropractor three times a week, I go to PT twice a week now. Like if I want to go out and walk five miles a day, like people who have a nine to five job like that's, that's tough, like, when are they going to get the care they need? When are they having time, like you really have to make this a priority in your life. And then if you're going to eat well, like cooking at home is a little I mean, it's more time consuming than just getting fast food or things that are easy to cook and reheat. So, you know, I think that's been one of the the barriers to a lot of people, myself included was both time and cost for some of this. I mean, it doesn't always have to be as time consuming or as expensive, but it's a little bit

No Sure. There's no doubt about it. Right? I mean, you know, we've we want to step away from our personal zone for just a minute if you if you take into the fact that like, you know, obesity in the south, for example. abusing this out is not because of traditional fried foods and biscuits and fried chicken, it's really not. Obesity in the salad is directly related to education, and income. And cheap food is not nutritious, it's high in calories, you know, those dollar meals. So it really is like we've we've created a situation that makes it harder for people to eat healthy. It's it's more expensive to buy meat that's organic, it's more expensive to buy proteins that are sustainably sourced, it's more expensive to buy vegetables. And that the the people plant in the food and harvesting the food are paid a decent wage, you know, our food system, there's a lot of cracks in our food system. And it really does translate and sort of trickled down to the number that you read on your scale. It's pervasive.

And I know you know, one of the things that is not good for any of us is also alcohol. And so a lot of a lot of chefs, I mean, not just us, but especially people in the food industry have issues with that. And while I would never say that I had a problem with that I drank I still drink but I definitely notice, you know, like last night I had a drink and then the first thing I did was like had some chips after that, right? So it's like it's doubly bad for you because not only getting the calories and it's I know it's gonna disrupt my sleep, but then I'm not making those good food choices as well. So it's just kind of like this downward spiral right.

It's really easy and and I have definitely way back off on alcohol. I mean, I think that it's no secret that the food business, the food and beverage business, there's a huge emphasis on beverage. There's a lot of drinking, I think that you know, regular life. I mean, Americans drink a lot to begin with, but if you if you look at the food business, you know, people drink even more than that. I mean, we used to my you know, Lisa and I used to like have a drink or two before dinner every night. Split a bottle of wine with dinner every night. I mean, that's just like a Tuesday, right? That wasn't catching a bus. That wasn't like having a great time. That was just Tuesday night. You know? Have a cocktail before dinner, at least one and then a half a bottle of wine with dinner. And that's a lot of alcohol, and so on for multiple reasons. For me, it mental health included physical and mental health is like I need to back off here. And with the pandemic, especially, I thought, What do I need to do to keep myself healthy? And what do I need to do on to stay on this path of losing weight? And I knew that that would be an important piece for me, you know, and I didn't want to be eating or drinking my feelings and my fears. And there certainly was plenty with the pandemic, especially in the beginning stages. And then, you know, much like you I have a, I had a back issue when the medicine that I was taking, didn't mix with alcohol. So that was like a blessing. That was like, Okay, well, there you go, that's taken off the table. And that gave me some space with it. And my relationship with alcohol has completely changed. And I'm in dry January now. And I finished up three months at the end of the year, and I'm not certain about drinking or not drinking, like I just I'm not drinking today.

Sometimes those health issues. I mean, that's kind of what started the whole thing with the weight loss with me, it was like I was just sitting too much when COVID started drinking too much coffee, like I was all strung out and I got a really bad, they don't even know, but they think it was like prostate issues, to be honest. And as you start looking at the things you can do for that it's like walking and like don't drink alcohol, like alcohol and caffeine make it worse. So it's like, okay, I'm just gonna walk like five miles a day and stop and I didn't drink alcohol for eight months. And now it's one of those things where it's just like, yeah, like, last night, I had a cocktail was the first time I had a cocktail in two weeks. And you know, Ryan one, and yeah, and I'm okay with that. And that's where I've kind of found my balance.

And I think that that's important tonight, because it's so you know, it's just it's those nerves, you know, we keep hearing about it on, you know, different shows and podcasts and stuff. It's like different neural pathways. So at the end of the day, at five o'clock, or, you know, whatever, six, clock eight, whatever, people get off, like, oh, wow, what a great day, I had a good day, I'm going to have a cocktail, it's just breaking that habit, you know, and if you know, my job, so my system of accountability is weightwatchers. And, and I'm not a spokesperson or anything like that, I just find it a really easy tool to use. I'm not a huge fan of their packaged foods and the processed foods, I just find it easy to know that points that you know, certain points are easy to calculate, as opposed to like two points as opposed to 250 calories or four points as opposed to 500. You know what I mean? Like the numbers, just the numbers are smaller. But you know, I think it's a one and a half ounces of bourbon is like five or six points and you know, down south one half ounces of bourbon, that's hardly enough to whet your eye. So that's kind of a why bother? Yeah, no,

totally, totally. With your recipe development. So when you like going forward, what are your recipe is going to look like? Are you going to exclusively kind of work in the healthier food space?

So I think that this is thank you for that question. It's a really great question. My food in general has definitely changed. But having said that, am I going to try to make a puff pastry with you know, margarine? No, you know, am I going to, you know, that that is something that in my mind is really different. Like, I haven't done anything like I didn't go keto, I didn't just I didn't say all these, this long list of foods is off limits for me. I have for all practical purposes, continued eating the same kind of foods that I have eaten my whole life, I'm leaving less of it. I am eating definitely eating more vegetables. I've definitely changed my proteins. But nothing's off limit. So if I want to have a pancake, I mean, this afternoon, for example, when I missed our earlier appointment, I'm baking a pumpkin a healthier pumpkin, like breakfast bread. So when I do those development projects, I definitely bring the health to it, because I think that everyone could benefit from this, right. But on the other hand, you know, sometimes there's a time to celebrate. And that means, you know, that means going whole hog, so to speak.

I think I saw something from you somewhere that said, like, instead of having beef and broccoli have broccoli and beef or something right, like it's still the same thing. Just kind of switch the amounts, the ratios of the ingredients.

Right, right. And I've got a recipe development project that I'm working on this week. I think for the AJC that. I'm going to do a beef stroganoff, which oh my gosh, how could that be light and healthy? It's noodles and beef and sour cream. Well I'm going to, what I've decided to do is I'm going to do basically equal parts mushroom and onion to beef, right? So you get the beefy flavor. The mushrooms, of course, a really high and umami, the onions are there for sweetness, but they're also going to bulk up the dish. And then and then what I will probably do is use a little bit of flour in there so that the, the sauce will not break and use a lighter sour cream, or perhaps a yogurt I have to see because I know that we know that there has to be an A fat so it won't break. But and then and then there you are. So is it classic traditional beef stroganoff? No. Does it honor the recipe. Yeah. Does it taste good? Yes. And that's the most important part.

I've really enjoyed changing the way we cook and eat at home doing the same thing. Like I'll make a meatloaf and I'll do 50 50% ground beef and 50% Turkey or something or, you know, cooking quinoa and adding that in as the binder instead of bread crumbs to stretch it and give Yeah, you know, and I think those are totally delicious and acceptable substitution. So it's just like, getting in that mindset of like, that's how you're gonna cook. Right?

Yeah, and in my mind, I feel like it's actually expanding my palette, which is so interesting. I don't feel like I'm limited. Okay, so I know for a fact that I love classic butter, cream sugar or French cooking. And I know for a fact that I love that old school southern with the fat back and the hog Zhao and all of that. But now, I feel like my palate is even expanded because I like the classic meatloaf. But I also like turkey live with quinoa. You know, my tastebuds have changed. And I think that that's something that it's important for people to realize, if they are trying to start a new health journey, or they are on a health journey is that these subtle changes that you and I are discussing. They don't happen automatically. And they don't happen overnight. But they will happen you can change your tastebuds.

Oh, you can there's things that I used to not like that I love now and it does take some adjusting and finding the right way to cook things. I mean, I think a perfect example is like brussel sprouts, like I still don't want to eat a pre frozen boiled brussel sprouts. Like it's not delicious at all. It's like but once and so many people for years didn't eat them. It's like well, all they had to do is roast them, right? I you know, a little bacon house. But even if you don't have the bacon, just the process of cutting them and tossing them in like maybe you know, an avocado oil and throwing them in the oven with some seasoning on it. It's a totally different animal than a boiled or steamed Brussel sprout.

No, sure. And if that's all everyone's ever had, and of course, they're not gonna like him, right? No, it's like, no, and that speaking of brussel sprouts, so that is something that I think is like, is really important. And we know it's important for our health. And it's also important for weight and weight control is I make a point to eat a minimum of two fruits and vegetables at every meal. And that helps on so many different levels and helps me get the nutrients, but it's also filling, right, so it fills me so that I'm I'm filling myself with a fruit or a vegetable and therefore, instead of me wanting that, say whole steak, you know whole bone in ribeye. I'll be happy with four ounces of that state, which is technically what we're supposed to eat. But if you think about a bone in ribeye, yeah, that's a pound pound and a half.

Yeah, I'm not interested in that anymore. Just like the idea of this gigantic steak in the middle of the plate. Like I can't even tackle it. I go to a friend's house and they served me this giant steak. I'm like, first of all, like cut that in third. Like, I'll come back for more if I want it, but like that, I'm just not going to eat it. Yeah, yeah. When I get people on the show, I send them some questions and and kind of want to know what they want to talk about. One of the things you had said, that was interesting to you or that you want to talk about with sustainable seafood? Yeah, what is it about sustainable seafood that is important to you? And why do you want to talk about it?

I will thank you so much for asking me and I think that's great. So sort of a long story short, I grew up in the country and my grandparents had a pie. And when I was a very little girl, we were taught the importance of the pond. And we were taught to like, not go down there that it was dangerous to give ourselves but it was also about the ecology of the pond and my my country. granddaddy never used the word ecology of the pond. But from the very beginning of my life, the pond was a very important place for us. And then so fast forward, you know, whatever, 30 years, and it was when I was working for Martha Stewart. And the book mark Kurlansky. wrote called cod. The fish that changed the world came out. And it was this once again, sort of lightbulb moment like it never occurred to me that we weren't treating the ocean with the same respect that my grandfather had tried to teach me to have for the pond. So my sort of mission Being a non restaurant chef is to, to take some of the food trends and some of the things that that that restaurant chefs are learning and doing, and to translate it so that home cooks can do it in my magazines and my blogs and the videos that I do. And on that same note, it's to take that information about sustainability because people don't think about it. And we don't know about what's underneath the ocean because we can't see. And I think it's important for people to realize that we really do need to start making more sustainable choices to seafood, because we're, we're eating it up.

And educating your customers, you know, wherever you have customers, I remember when it's probably like, 12 years ago, I was working in a place and we were selling orange Rafi. And then soon thereafter, that was one of those fish that they kind of put on the Red List of like, we're overfishing, you know, similarly with like Chilean sea bass, and it's fine, you know, but then if you've had it on your menu, and customers are accustomed to this, and ask like, why don't you have that anymore? Letting them know educating your waitstaff and just kind of saying, you know, it, apparently there were overfishing it, it's something that we want to see coming back, right. So like, we're just gonna decide to not serve it and make that choice. And it's great to see some of those fish that were being overfished. Now, the populations are coming back, because I think a lot of people stood up and said, We're just not going to put it on our menus.

Now, exactly. And that's where and so I'm on a committee for the Monterey Bay Aquarium called the Blue Ribbon Panel for Seafood Watch. And for those of your listeners that haven't heard of it, Seafood Watch is this great program by the by the Monterey Bay Aquarium, and it's a science driven approach. And they basically grade seafood. Green means go yellow means think about it. Red means don't do it. Whole Foods Market is probably the the most visible use. There seafood is all either, okay, by Seafood Watch or Marine, sort of on Marine Stewardship Council. But it's important, because we're eating the species out. And so if someone is aware of it, like you're saying, some of these species can come back, you know, for example, cod, the book that 30 years ago, 20 years ago, that I read that got me on this journey, you know, cod are coming back and St Georges Bank, because they have had these restrictions in place. So if we, if we leave him alone a little bit that the populations can recover.

There's so much food in the world that, you know, I think we get in this abundance mindset, like we have money, and we have abundance, or we think we have abundance, and it's like you want everything when you want it. And I think just getting people out of that mindset of like, No, you can't always have everything you want all the time.

Right? And then and we eat like, you know, I think it's tuna, shrimp and salmon. I mean it you would be hard pressed. So many people are people are terrified to cook seafood. But even if you go out to a restaurant, like it's really hard for chefs to put something other than tuna, salmon, or shrimp on a menu, because people are so nervous about it, and it's expensive. And you know, all the things. So it's complicated, right? Because some farmed seafood is good. Some farmed seafood is not good. There's not like this big black and white line down the middle. It's a very complicated and complex situation, but it's worth it right. It's, it's worth it for us to worry about and to attend to the health of our oceans.

One of the things I see with fishes, it's also hard to judge what's going to be available when like, I feel like you can always get salmon shrimp like customers, I'm planning a dinner party for customers in a month and they want to me to give them a menu proposal. And it's hard for me to say like, we're gonna have rockfish or we're gonna have swordfish, you know, so one of the things I get into is saying, like, Can you can you be a little flexible, like, it'll be delicious, but I'm not going to know until a couple days out what my offerings are gonna be. And then I might say, well, then just give me a salmon or shrimp but I really try and get people to say like, no, just trust me, like, if you like mild fish, there will be some kind of mild fish available. But I can't tell you like which specifically it will be.

Right right right now and it's just something but once again, it's like just showing people that there are some choices and hopefully the choices that they do make. I do a lot of work with the wild Alaskan company. And that you know, it's in the Alaskan constitution that all seafood harvested from the waters of Alaska must be sustainable. I mean, it's an it's, you know, Alaska is a conservative state. This isn't like, you know, hippie loving California kind of stuff, but they realize that it is a resource that they have to protect. And so you know, all seafood harvested and Alaskan waters is deemed sustainable by the Father districts. DEP for the state of Alaska. And, you know, but it is important to just try other other species like to expand our species. And I encourage that for any listeners, right? Like, if you, if you're always ordering salmon just for kicks and giggles or that swordfish one time, what's the worst that will happen? What's the worst that will happen? Yeah. Might you're just gonna get turned on to something near me?

Are you someone who sets goals? And if so, do you have any either short term or long term goals? Like, you know, especially as we're at the beginning of the year, I don't want to say like resolutions, but

yeah, no, I do. Definitely. I'm very much a goals that are, my whole life in my whole career has been like, Okay, I want to go work for a firm, or I want to go do that, or I want to write that book or, you know, so I kind of feel like you have to point your head in the direction that you want to go, even if it's like sort of a vague goal, like when I was losing, starting the weight loss process, but, you know, I want to be healthy and strong. It wasn't like, oh, I want to be this number. At the beginning of the year, what I've decided is that I needed to do was to sort of reassess the my, my intentions, which is different than a, than a resolution, I wanted to make certain that I was aware and refocused on what I was eating, like, just to kind of give it give myself like a little booster shot, so to speak of, like, eating healthy and taking care of myself, one of my main goals for the year is to improve my sleep habits, because sleep is so important for our health, and memory. And, you know, as I'm aging, etc, like I you know, I'm uh, I can, I can get by on not much sleep, and it's not a good habit. But I do think that it is good for people to, you know, how I handle it, is to think about what you want, where you're going, if you don't have any idea, then, you know, you just kind of bobbing along, sometimes it's going to work out and sometimes it's not, but I always think it's a good idea to have an idea where you're going.

Me too, I'm a if I don't have it, like spelled out in front of me, it's really easy to lose track, especially like COVID was so weird. Like, I feel like people got thrown for a loop. And if you had a goal or a schedule or something, it was easier to stay on track with that.

Sure, sure. Where humans are humans are we like habits. We like structure. You know, I mean, it's not really any different than your eight year old kid, right? You know, the kids like structure. And at the end of the day, we're all just really a bunch eight year old kids.

And I've just found that like sleep. Like that's something that I neglected for way too many years burning the candle at both ends, like working on things till two in the morning or just staying up watching TV. I read the book, why we sleep Matthew Walker amazing book, like, but now I have we have a new mattress, I've got my mask, I got my blue glass that I wear. You know, before I go to bed, I try to not do the electronics, all that kind of stuff. We have a white noise in the bedroom. Like I'm really trying to optimize,

oh my gosh, I'm gonna have to get that. Yeah, no, I need to I need to listen to what you're doing. I need to get that book for sure. Now, I mean, you know, my whole thing, I'm looking at a sign it says all in. So for me like, Okay, I've lost 60 pounds, 70 pounds, I've kept it off for a year, I walk three and a half miles every day. But for me to ignore that piece of it, then it's not all in, you know, I'm not fully committed to this. And it really is. I mean, sort of, for me, it's like just trying to be the best person that I can be the best person that I can be at my job, the best person that I can be, you know, just as a normal human caring for other people, the best cook, I can be the best chance I can have it at career success. If I am, you know, feeling good and mentally sound and getting enough sleep that's going to put me in a better chance to succeed at work. So, you know, I'm all about giving ourselves the best chances to do what we need to do.

I always like to ask people, what are their favorite things, resources, it could be culinary, it could be something for a better life. It could be websites, cookbooks, tools, apps. What are some things that you love?

Well, there is a app called Mind Insight Timer. And it's a meditation app. It's a free app. And I use that a lot. And I use it. There are some some things that talk on there. And there's the meditations that I listened to, to go to sleep. But there are also plenty of talks about different things. And just this week, for example, I learned, you know, it was a talk that I listened to that basically, within every human. There is the capability for war and there's the capability for love and every human and we don't like to think about it but I am capable of war. You are capable of war. Is it likely probably not but someone is. And so it's just only sort of like though, I look for resources like that, that helped me more whole body. So Insight Timer is cool. And then I always you know, I love the food ones right gastro obscura serious eats, eating well, weightwatchers like, what can I learn that's gonna help my life. And I always, of course, drawn to the food site.

I love the calm app, which sounds a lot like what you do, and we and we pay for it, it's totally worth it, to subscribe to get the extra stuff we listen, my wife puts it on every night to go to sleep. I use it every day, I try and do like a 15 minute kind of mindfulness breathing practices during the day for focus. My kids, like when they have trouble going to sleep, they'll put that on and there's like calm stories for kids. So it's not necessarily breathing techniques, but just like a soothing story to help them. And that was like, one of the best things that we've gotten.

I think that that I love that that has become more prevalent and present in our lives. And I think it's been very necessary with the craziness of the past couple years. Because people have been settings, anxiety ridden, I've definitely had increased anxiety, you know, worried about my health, worrying about family's health, worrying about the health of our country, like all of it, right. And so anything that can help alleviate that, I think is good. And it's just it's yeah, it's super easy to grab a bag of chips and distressing. Or it's super easy to like, oh, man, I had a hell day, I'm gonna pour a double bourbon, it's, it's not as easy to take 15 minutes to do breathing techniques, right? It's not as much fun. But at the end of the day of those three choices, that's probably the best one for us. And I

recently discovered this scientist, and he has whole thing is about nasal breathing. And I realized that like, that's something I don't do. And he's written whole books on this, that like, everything comes down to like breathing through your nose, like you should not breathe through your mouth ever that like your mouth is not for that. And the science is intriguing everything from you know, like, I guess it oxygenates your blood, and it can relieve muscle tightness and tension. But the big thing that I thought was really interesting in these times, he said, you know, no one's talking about it. But like, if you just look at COVID, like, if you are breathing in through your nose, what's coming in your body is filtered better than through your mouth, it's not going right into your lungs. And then the same thing, if you're breathing out through your nose, you're not spewing out these moist particles as much as you know, if you're breathing out through your mouth. And then there's something about the process of breathing in through your nose that there's some your body creates some like disinfectant anti microbial thing in the nose. So then people who actually have COVID, it can help. It's like sterilizing your lungs a little bit. I just thought, you know, things like that, like you don't, you literally don't have to pay for anything, do any extra work of like going to a gym, it's just like, focus on breathing in and out through your nose instead of your mouth. Like, could that make your life so much better? You know?

Yeah. And it's doable. Because what I find that happens, Chris is that if you're doing this, one little thing over here, is they call it the domino effect. And I personally find that sort of like a more. It's almost brusque, but the domino effect if you do this one good thing that it will lead to other things. And I kind of like to think of it as like a web. So if I'm eating healthy, and I'm walking every day, you know, every night I write, we write about this in the eating well piece. Like, every night, I have this whole procedure with i where i put lotion on my hands and on my feet. And I usually put like a CBD lotion on my feet because I'm walking three and a half miles a day. And, and it's become habit. And does that have anything to do with me losing weight? No. And does it have anything for me to do me to lose weight? Yes, it has everything to do because it really is that sort of whole body approach. We're, you know, fully functioning humans and have to look at our home, our whole existence. And that's very smart about the, the nose breathing,

like you were saying, you know, like, when I hurt my back, it's like I'm spending this time going to the chiropractor and physical therapy. It's like, while I'm doing like, I don't want to have a relapse again. So it's like, I should probably also look at, like, how I feel physically how I'm feeling mentally, like, Oh, is there a better way that I can, you know, just be in better shape and better health, right? And it's very, like, once you start going down that path that's like, it's like addictive almost, you know, it's like I don't I don't want to have any of that bad stuff anymore.

Exactly. It really does become kind of like a game and then I think that that that's also something to encourage people that are really having a hard time. Like okay, so when my back was at its worst, I couldn't walk three and a half miles a day I can hardly walk up the stairs certain days. So but but but having some level of success or having one little victory, you know, even if it is just like Something small. It gives us encouragement really. And I think that there's just so much stress and so much tension. And it's it's so hard we're faced with all these like unhealthy choices that when you can find those little, you know, gifts, there's little victories, take them, embrace them, take them.

Absolutely. Was there anything else you want to leave our listeners with before we get out of here today?

I'm just so grateful. I think that that the only thing I would like to leave is that you know, if people are embarking on their own health journey, is that they're worth it. They're worth it.

And you have stuff all over the internet. What are some of your favorite places to push people to to find your work?

Well, I have a great time on Instagram, that's for sure. And that that's sort of interesting, you know on how that's turned out. But um, any the y'all can find me if you go to my website, Virginia Willis calm and there are links to Facebook, Instagram, Twitter, I'm pretty mouthy on Twitter about politics, just as a warning. Instagram is a little bit more food friendly.

That's great. I put all that in the show notes, and I will make sure everyone knows where they can find you.

Awesome. Thank you so much.

Thanks so much for coming on the show. I really appreciate it. I'm so glad we could catch up.

No, I had a great time. Chris. Thank you so much. It's really cool. And I can't wait. I can't wait to listen to myself. And to all

of our listeners. This has been Chris with the Chefs Without Restaurants podcast. Go to chefs without restaurants.org To find our Facebook group, mailing list and check database. The community's free to join. You'll get gig opportunities, advice on building and growing your business and you'll never miss an episode of our podcast. Have a great week.