Heirloom Beans and Beyond: Inside Rancho Gordo with Steve Sando

[00:00:00] Where are all the bean lovers? Because today, I'm joined by Steve Sando, the founder of Rancho Gordo. Steve's journey is anything but typical. From his early days dabbling in music and web design to eventually diving headfirst into the world of heirloom beans, Steve's story is a testament to the power of following your passions, no matter where they might lead.

This is Chris Spear and you're listening to Chefs Without Restaurants, the show where I speak with culinary entrepreneurs and people working in the food and beverage industry outside of a traditional restaurant setting. I have 32 years of working in kitchens, but not restaurants, and currently operate a personal chef service during dinner parties in the Washington, D.C. area. So I just wanted to really quickly say thanks to everyone who listens, um, but also for your patience and flexibility with my release schedule. Maybe this is your first episode, but um, if you've been listening to the show, you know, I used to or usually release one episode a week. It's the summertime.

My kids [00:01:00] are home from school. I watch them a lot during the days. Um, and we just took a vacation, so my schedule's been a little off. That being said, I've still been recording a bunch, so I just need to get these episodes edited and out there for you. So the release day and schedule might be a little flexible over the next couple weeks, but I'm sure it's gonna even out once I get back to fall.

Okay, enough about that. Today we're exploring the fascinating world of heirloom beans, discussing everything from their unique flavors to the importance of preserving these varieties. Steve's gonna share his insights on the entrepreneurial journey, especially starting a successful business later in life, which is something that I'm quite familiar with, being that I started my personal chef service essentially when I was 40.

We're gonna dive into those practical tips for cooking beans, including the pros and cons of soaking, the magic of pressure cookers, and the benefits of cooking with clay pots. And even though it's literally Steve's least favorite thing to talk about, I did have to ask him about gas. Come on, you were all thinking about it.

But [00:02:00] it's just a very brief part of this conversation. So if you're curious about how to incorporate more beans into your cooking, or simply love hearing about unique culinary journeys, this episode is for you. And we did record this a little bit ago. In our conversation, he did hint on it, but Steve does have The Bean Book, which will be coming out this fall.

I think at this point, there's probably a pre sale link, and I will put that in the show notes. As always, thanks so much for listening. I hope everyone is having a great summer. Maybe you heard it was my birthday this week. If you wish me happy birthday on social media, thanks. I really appreciate it. It was amazing to see how many people, uh, shared the love.

All right. Let's get into this episode. Thanks for listening and have a great week. Hey, Steve, welcome to the show. Thanks so much for coming on. Thanks for having me. Excited to be here. You didn't start in the agriculture business. So what were you doing before you got into beans? You know, I did a [00:03:00] million things and if you had told me in 1984 when I was 24 and a young Francisco that I would land on my feet finally in agriculture or food.

I would have just laughed and see what seems so stupid, but that's what happened. I loved music and I loved not show business so much, but I love theater and movies, and I just always felt I'd be probably successful, but I really felt it would have been doing something else. Like I loved singing, although I never.

I guess I was a culture vulture and it just didn't dawn on me. So I worked at Esprit, the clothing company. In the early eighties, like many people in San Francisco did. And then I moved to Italy where I was a radio disc jockey where I would do a show of jazz and cocktails. That's like 88. And then I came home and became a web designer and then we did music licensing.

I say we, so it sounds like it wasn't my failure, but it was, so I did music licensing and [00:04:00] then I just remember thinking, I've tried all these things. 88 was when I was in Italy doing the radio show. I came home. This is so such a convoluted story, but I came home and I couldn't get a job. So I was bootlegging cassette tapes.

So this was probably around 90 and they were really successful. And then I started doing reviews of music and I made a zine. And so this is like 94, maybe you're 92. So something in me said, send the zine to wired magazine. And I did every month. And all of a sudden they printed a review that was really positive.

And then that's when I, after that, I got into web design and then at that point I was on telnet and I think that was it or something, but I just think the web seemed like the stupidest idea I'd ever heard of, but I did it. And so then I became a web designer because of this publication I was doing. Is that so convoluted?

You're incredibly cool. That's so cool. Well, cause I'm not a tech guy at all, [00:05:00] but I realized I had the real genius of the personal computer revolution was that you could do this all yourself where before you really had to, you know, go to someone who was a specialist and I think with PCs, it's like, oh, I can do this.

So that's where I started doing the layout and publishing it and then doing the web design. But nothing ever works. It almost did. And I thought you're a screw up just to get a job at target and have a garden. And that's really, that was 40 at that point. So it was, it would have been 2000 and that's what I did.

And then of course the garden started working and then I took them to the things to the farmer's market and. The rest is history, and so there was not a clear, concise plan that it was just like, oh, let's try this. Let's try that. But, you know, along the way, all the things I hated that were so frustrating, I'm using like a spree, which was a clothing company.

I have no interest in clothing, but I learned branding and moving to Italy. I learned the way the rest of the world thinks and also that. [00:06:00] Even though I'm actually somewhat shy, you just have to get out of your own way or you're never going to get anywhere. And then also I think I learned that I wanted to be an entrepreneur.

So all these things eventually led to Rancho Porto. I love hearing that and that the skill sets compound and also your age, because I think we're in this entrepreneurial age where everyone wants to start a business. And it's like, Oh man, if you haven't started your business by 35, like it's too late and you know, obviously.

You started a very successful business at an older age. So that's great to hear. And you do all these different things your first time out of the gate, you're probably not going to make it. So you've got to keep trying different things. And so that's what's a little bit frustrating, but it's also important.

Start failing now so you can get to where you're going to be. But yes, I definitely started later than most people. And when I hear people getting upset, you know, I'm in my thirties and I don't know what I'm going to do. It's like, eh, calm yourself, just have as good a time as you can and learn and just suck up all the culture [00:07:00] and knowledge as you can to like be a sponge.

Well, I started my personal chef business at 40, you know, I quit my job and, you know, people were like, what are you crazy? Like you got in the food industry at 16 by 40, you had attained, you know, some status or, you know, whatever you want to call it. I was an executive chef at a big company and I left and they're like, really?

Like at 40, you think it's a good time to like quit your job with benefits and everything and, um, start a business. And, but that was, um, seven years ago. And, you know, here I am still doing my thing. There's been some evolution, but figuring out ways to make it work. I think also when you have success now and even though they're little, or I mean, there's not huge spikes, but you get more success as you get older, you realize, okay, this is the way I want to go.

You, uh, appreciate it more if you're older and you've been around the block. Cause I think when you're younger, sometimes you think, well, this is just the way life is. I was like, well, not necessarily. It's hard to differentiate those things. So one of the big [00:08:00] questions I have is, How do you get into beans?

Because to me, from a, just like a gardening standpoint, it seems overwhelming. Like, I don't think I know anyone who grows beans at their house, right? Like we grow tomatoes, cucumbers, peppers, that kind of things. I don't know anything about how beans grow. Like if I put a bean in the ground and a plant grows, like how many beans come out of it?

How many plants do I need to grow at home just to feed my family, let alone start a bean business. So kind of fill me in on that, you know, part of your story, if you don't mind. Bye. Well, growing up in California, we ate a lot of beans, even though we weren't Mexican. It just, they were always there. So I liked them, but really a can of Rosarito refried beans was really a fabulous thing to me at that point.

And there's still some value there, but I was growing tomatoes mostly, and I was taking the farmer's market and here in Napa, they really don't ripen until late July or August. So I had all these months with nothing to sell at the farmer's [00:09:00] market. And then I started playing around with different things.

And then I found heirloom beans, you know, which are harder to grow. They have a lower yield, but they're really beautiful. I mean, I really did it superficially based on the way they looked, but I started eating them and thinking, Oh, wait, these are completely different. And a million people were doing heirloom tomatoes at that point.

And I just love these beans. And the more I deeper I dug, the more exciting they became. And so, uh, that's really. How I focused on that. And I don't tend to have very many casual interests in things. So I love going narrow and deep. So as soon as I found one heirloom, I've just been ever since on a quest to find as many as I can, because it breaks my heart to think there might be some bean that's on its way out, or that might be, you know, becoming obsolete that someone doesn't love just because it's hard to grow or obscure.

So I've just been going down that sinkhole for all these years, but happily. Relating to that, are [00:10:00] there any beans that you now grow and, you know, successfully have that were on the brink of extinction or disappearing that you've kind of been able to resurrect? Well, there was one that Thomas Keller, the chef at French Laundry liked called Vallarta, and it's really obscure and I assume it's from the coast of Jalisco, like Puerto Vallarta.

And it's sort of, uh, I think they call them sulfur beans, like Zolfini in Italy is that family, and there are a couple of others, and he loved it, and because it's Thomas Keller, we had to grow it, and even though I didn't have any demand for it, then, uh, it really made me think the way to save these beans is to get people to eat them.

So, even though seed saving and nonprofits are really important, the most important thing is to get people to eat them. And so with Keller growing it, this bean was thriving. We're not growing it at the moment, but we will again, we did save seed for it. Yeah. There's so many cool [00:11:00] varieties of whether it be beans or corn or something like you hear about like Jimmy red corn and, um, things like that.

And I, I think it's really important that we save so many of these crops because, you know, it's, it's sad to me. You go in the grocery store and it's, you know, One variety of watermelon and, you know, like essentially one variety of tomato. Like we're just given like one selection of everything. And you know, what about all those really interesting things?

No. And when you travel, you see like in Mexico, bananas, like I had no idea there were so many different bananas and we get one and I think that's causing a lot of problems, but, uh, no genetic diversity is a real key thing. And it's delicious. So So when you started, you were doing all of it yourself. Like you were the gardener, like planting and harvesting.

Yes. And I erroneously felt I had a gift because everything was going really well, but it turns out that Napa it's really easy to grow things here. So [00:12:00] I had a little help the second year. And by the third year, it's like, I can't do this. There's, and also the yield on one bean plant is great. If you want green beans for dinner, but to actually have dried beans, To make a pot of beans.

It's just not practical. So I immediately found out I needed help from professional farmers, but that wasn't easy because they really want to grow commercial beans that are easy to grow and have a higher yield. And I, my point was, well, we can charge more. And we don't really need to do commodity beans, but that, so that's an ongoing problem, to be honest with you.

So how did we get the types of beans that we have in the grocery store? The five or six varietals? Like how were those the selected beans? Do you know? They didn't ask me, but I'd say that's part of the problem. Um, I don't know. I mean, I worked with a UC extension at one point and they had a field [00:13:00] day to show off.

The different beans that they bred and this one was completely white and this one was completely round and this one the harvester likes and this one has a higher yield. And I asked them, I mean, how does that affect the flavor? And they were like deer in headlights in four years of a bean trial. They'd never cooked one pound.

So it's really all about what's easiest for the farmer and the yield. So that's why we have what we have. And there's a place, though, for cheap, plentiful plant based protein. So, I'm a little bit of a snob, but I absolutely, it's fine that we have these other beans. I mean, good, cheap pintos that, you know, aren't heirloom, there's a place for them.

So, even though I'm a snob, I also am not one, if that makes sense. You have to have affordable food for everyone and not that your beans aren't affordable, but, um, like how much education do you have to do to consumer with [00:14:00] consumers as far as like the differences and benefits of heirloom beans compared to, you know, the old ones you might find in your grocery store.

And then also, like, do you talk about pricing? Because, you know, a pound of beans from Rancho Gordo is higher than a pound of beans that you would get it, you know, Weiss grocery store. In the early days, it was more of a struggle because the people that really were eating beans that I was selling to in the farmer's market were old hippies who were used to buying beans at the food co op, and they need to be cheap because that's what they're beans, so they should be cheap, and they're still even at our prices.

They're about 50 cents a serving, so they're compared to me. And also the health benefits and the environmental benefits. It's like, there's really no comparison, but in the old days it was really hard. Uh, now people just weren't even cooking any beans at all and had no point of reference. So we don't get that much resistance over the price anymore.

In the early days, it really was [00:15:00] hippies. And you know, I'm 64, so I'm just under that era. And they were really hard. And also older people. Who had them during the depression they look longingly at the beans But then never buy them for some reason and maybe it was the price I don't know or maybe too many beans that they were fed back in the day Most people love beans if you give it just the hard part is selling them on cooking them Like why can't I don't I just might can't and I always just say, you know When you cook them, the bean broth is like free soup.

It's like a gift in addition to the bean, plus the beans taste better and the canning process at this point really doesn't give you great beans, but, uh, I mean, they're okay. I think you lose what's interesting about them. But, uh, you also have to rinse them when they're canned. So what is free soup when you make them is disgusting when you, uh, open the can.

And if you open the cans more and [00:16:00] more, I find, we did a comparison. It used to be a full cup and a half of beans was in a can. And now sometimes it's just over a cup and it's just full of mucky water that you're throwing away. And I see some recipes that call for using that, like, recipes for chili that say, like, open the can of kidney beans and dump it in with that stuff, and I just, I can never do that.

Like, who is the ones writing these recipes or suggesting to dump all that canned bean fluid in there? I would never do that. No. Um, yeah, modern recipe writing is an art form, but it's not always so great. We always cringe when someone says, you know, use a can of beans. But it would be so easy for them in any recipe or one and a half cups to two cups of cooked beans.

All they have to say is cooked because, um, more and more people are Cooking their own beans. You don't want to discount the recipe because they didn't do that. So cooking bean, I have a couple of questions and I'm sure you hear them all the time, but I want to make sure, you know, we get some of this information [00:17:00] for our listeners who maybe don't know, like, what are your thoughts on the soaking or cooking?

You know, like I grew up soaking beans ahead of time. I know you can like do a quick soak, do an overnight soak. And people talk about pressure cooker and maybe we include that here to like, what are some tips or, you know, ways that you think or that you like to cook beans? Well, I used to be very adamant that my way was the best way and now I'm just a little easy going or easy going as long as you're cooking beans, you're way ahead of the curve, but.

I don't soak my Rancho Gordo beans. If I got beans from a source I didn't know, I probably would soak them. Harold McGee in On Food and Cooking says that four to six hours is really all you ever need, and that they've rehydrated all they're going to with that, so the rest is extra. He says that there are potentially Uh, nutritional things and flavor things that are in the water.

So you shouldn't throw it out or [00:18:00] an Italian grandmother will insist you do. So there's kind of no, you kind of have to make your own decision. The quick soaking is kind of silly to me because you know, you're putting it in hot water and quick soaking. If you don't know is put the beans, you pour boiling water over them and leave them to soak for an hour.

And then you throw the water away and supposedly you that's like pre soaking them, but. Beans and hot water is cooking them, so why not just cook them? You gain nothing by just cook them. You're good. But I, if I didn't know the source of my beans, I probably would soak, to be honest with you. So that's what I would say for that.

The pressure cooker is a great thing. I don't tend to do it because I am not that busy, but, and the instant pot is fine, but it takes, it's, Actually, if you have a stovetop pressure cooker, it's better than the instant pot as far as it comes up to pressure much faster and it releases it [00:19:00] faster. So to me, I feel like I have more control, but I think some people don't want the control.

They just want to push a button and walk away, and there's nothing wrong with that, but it's not the way I like to cook. So I'm not the best Instant Pot person, but I do use a pressure cooker. Yeah, I don't know anyone who has a stove top pressure cooker anymore. I think, I think people are really scared of them still, even, and you know, the Instant Pot seems like it's super easy.

It's set it and forget it. If you love the pressure cooking aspect of the Instant Pot, I would suggest or someone to go look, there's all great new, there's really beautiful new models of pressure cookers. If you like that, and I'm sure you have spent more of your life talking about gas than maybe you would have expected, but, um, you know, I do, I do want to ask a couple of questions here because I mean, I have members of my family who won't eat beans at all because they talk about gas and G.

I. Distress. So, you know, are there any tips? I've heard, you know, cooking it with combo or [00:20:00] episode or, you know, that the soaking versus not soaking. Is there any? Insight you can share because I do think it limits people from cooking and eating beans in general, especially those who maybe didn't grow up with them as part of their like cultural heritage.

It's the subject I like the least, but I will tell you. Okay. Any, just like any quick tips then, or if there's, or is it not even true? Like, is, is there nothing we can do? Well, I ate Jerusalem artichokes. The other day, and excuse me, that is, that's much more potent than beans. But I think there's a great book out there called the air is human.

And it's like, it's part of your digestion system. If you have a very low fiber diet and you eat beans, it's like, Oh my God, these taste so good. You're gonna have what we call a gift with purchase, you know, when you finish them, but so you have to start slowly, but I would say if you really have problems, you probably don't have a high enough fiber diet.

I [00:21:00] think I must. I mean, it's just it's not an issue. And it seems like the more you eat them, the more you get used to it, or it's not such an issue. So it's just maybe like a shock to the system. Like, yeah, but you should be eating, well, not judge, but one should be eating a higher fiber diet anyway. So that shouldn't be so shocking to have a bowl of beans.

I just think, uh, I think fiber is one of the things that people are lacking more than maybe any other nutrient or anything in their food. I don't think people are eating enough fiber in general, though. Not a doctor, not a dietician here. No, and all this talk right now is about the gut biome for health.

You know, from your circulatory system to Alzheimer's. So I mean, and I don't make any claims, but it does seem that's where we're going and beans would be ideal for that. So just start with a smaller amount and see how things go. That's what I would recommend. Is it when people also say, oh, I can't eat cilantro.

It's like, I don't care. That's so uninteresting to me. So I guess it's kind of the same thing. [00:22:00] Do or don't, I don't know what to tell you. Uh, I'm from New England and, uh, the recipe that is most protected, loved and shared in my recipe is for New England baked beans. I grew up, uh, we always use the yellow eye or sometimes called Steuben, are those the same beans?

Cause I've kind of looked around and everything I've found kind of indicates that they're actually the same bean with different names. Do you know? Yes, it's the same. I think a Steuben yellow eye probably has a lower yield and is probably even more heirloom if it's possible. But, uh, Yes, I mean, a stupid yellow eye is probably the correct name, actually, too.

And that's one of those ones that if I'm home in Massachusetts, I can find in the store. I mean, it's not necessarily a quality Rancho Gordo bean, but it is something that is on almost every store shelf. So that was kind of surprising to me when I moved away and wasn't able to get them anymore. Oh, I'm happy to hear that though.

That's pretty great. I love regional differences in our food. Oh, me too. There's [00:23:00] a, I think they're called the main bean company. I'm not, you know, it's been a couple of years, but like in the grocery stores up there, they have six or seven varieties of beans. And it's not just Goya. No. And I think there are a couple of, You know, smaller independent people that are doing farmer's markets as well.

So that's all really encouraging. I think. What's interesting to you right now that you want to talk about? Cause I'm sure you got a lot of the same questions about beans and stuff. Is there anything new and exciting you're doing or anything you want to really share with people? Cause I want to make sure we talk about that today.

Well, I have a couple of Moby Dick varieties that we can't quite talk about yet, but we are working with botanists and creating seed stock for a couple of my favorite. Really obscure, hard to find beans. So we're hoping we have luck with that. There's a lot of talk these days about, you know, doing an induction ovens as opposed to gas or electric, and I have an old.

Wedgewood stove that is a gas that has been [00:24:00] refitted for propane. And I love this thing. And people keep talking about inductions, but I also love cooking with clay. And so I have clay pots that are dedicated to beans and they're on this, you know, low fired. Pots that you use on the stovetop, and I don't know what I would do if I had to switch, but cooking with clay is something I really just love because there's sort of a look mano hands.

You're cooking with the earth and fire, and it's very romantic, and it's a great gentle way to cook meat. Well, I love my bean pots. I've got two bean pots from my mom and those are, you know, like if something happens to them, I don't know how I'm going to be cooking my beans. I mean, I guess you can, you know, do them on the stove or do them in some other thing in the oven.

I could probably put them in a corning ware thing, but having like an authentic bean pot, that's the only way like I've cooked my baked beans before. So these are for the oven though, right? Yeah, yeah, yeah. Not, not a stovetop. So like an induction versus a gas is a non issue. That's [00:25:00] like put them in there and let them go for, you know, six hours in the oven or whatever.

I love that. That's very new England. So I have the Mexican bean pots and new Mexican and Italian bean pots that go right on this fire on the stove top. They're actually not for the oven. And I think the difference is if you were to break the pot, The inside looks white, that is for oven use. And if you break it and it looks like dirt, that is for stovetop.

So it's lower fired and it is, it can handle doses of heat. And I actually have a Facebook group called cooking with clay and we all compare notes about cooking in clay pots. Yeah, I've never cooked in clay, uh, before, you know, maybe something for me to try one of these days. It's wonderful. Well, when I used to do farmer's markets, which when I got started, I would cook samples.

And when I made them in my enameled cast iron, like the late crusade, I was so tired. Half the time I would wake up to burning beans because I [00:26:00] was so tired and I wasn't watching them. And with the clay pot, you almost can't burn them because, because you can't turn it up that high for one, because you'll ruin the pot.

But also it's just a gentle, Nicer way of cooking and they always worked. Where would one get like a clay pot? Like, are there brands or places? Like, let's say I wanted to buy a clay pot or our listeners wanted to try this out. Do you have a place to recommend like sourcing a clay pot to cook in?

Wonderful place. Rancho Gordo. com. We have two clay pots that are stovetop. So you have them on your website then? Yeah. And they're from Puebla and they're Mishteca pots and they actually have no glaze and people are very nervous about lead in pottery, but it really, there's no lead in the, Actual pot.

It's in the glaze where the danger is. And these are actually unleaded and they've been burnished by quartz rocks that, uh, women in the village have used for generations to, uh, finish them. They're pretty wonderful. [00:27:00] I want to hear about this bean club because I hear that there's like thousands of people who want in on this bean club that you have.

So can you give me the lowdown on the bean club? I'm in Napa, and we kept hearing about wine clubs. I mean, every winery has a wine club, and we heard about a new one from a mediocre winery, and I thought, isn't it so stupid? But you know what would be funny? Let's do a bean club. That would be hysterical.

Well, I don't know how many years old it is now, but, um, There are 22, 000 members in it, and they four times a year get a box of six beans and then something extra and a newsletter and the waitlist. This is insane. It's 30, 000 right now to get in. That's what the big club is. Mind blowing. Yeah, it totally is.

And we have a really low churn rate. They call it, you know, people who quit and, uh, we would expand it, [00:28:00] but, you know, we're working, the bean club gets really obscure things. So if we have a small farmer who could get us something, they doing more than 22 pounds is really a push for a lot of these people.

So we, Have to, unfortunately, keep it limited. It's an amazing part of the business. And then they have their own Facebook group, believe it or not. And so of the 22, 000, almost 9, 000 people are in it from the bean club. So almost half of the members still are on this Facebook group, which the San Francisco Chronicle described as the nicest place on the internet.

And we don't do heavy policing, but everybody's in a good mood when they're talking about beans. And I don't want anyone to think I'm a marketing genius or that it just, we stumbled into these things and it's really based on, Oh, that seems fun. Let's try that. And those are the things that work the best.

The same thing with our label. You know, I had, I knew I sort of wanted a vintage look and I kept talking to designers and it's, I finally got fed up. I said, I'm going to learn [00:29:00] Photoshop because no one could do what I want. So I did the label originally. Everything I've done is based on what makes me happy just again when you're younger You are maybe trying to please people a lot and there's nothing wrong with that But if you get older, it's like no I want to do what makes me happy rather than chase sales.

I want to chase It's what interests me and that's funny. That's the thing that works. Uh, you know, right now I feel like we're inundated with best practices for everything. Like everyone on the internet wants to be, you know, this is how to whatever, whether it's, you know, trick the algorithm and get more views or make more sales.

Like it's just overwhelming and half of that stuff doesn't work in the end. More than half of it probably doesn't work or, or it doesn't work for you. You know, they give this blanket advice that I just don't think everyone should be taking. You know? Well, everyone says you're supposed to be on TikTok now, and I think the interface is really ugly, let alone [00:30:00] the content isn't that great.

So it's not for me, so I don't do it. We do have staff members that do love it, so we might end up doing stuff, but it really won't be driven by me. Everyone's talking about Instagram lives are dead, but we have a great response from them, and you get a video afterwards. So when I do interviews, when someone has a book out or a product we like, we do an Instagram live, and then.

We still have the regal. So it's, even though it's not really in fashion right now, it works for us. Yeah. I think you have to figure out what makes you happy. And if you listen too much to these trends, you'll go crazy. If you type in heirloom beans, we're like the first three or four entries with Google.

So we don't really have to worry about SEO too much. I mean, you always want to be aware, but just doing things for SEO is exhausting and the rules can change. So just, I think it's guy Kawasaki. He said, right. Good. Stuff, that's not the word to use, but that's the best thing to do for SEO. And I think that's [00:31:00] true because it makes you happy and you can get on with it.

Well, I don't know of any other heirloom bean companies. I mean, I'm sure there are some, but, um, you know, I feel like in my opinion, you're like, I don't know if it was like first to market or the name, but like when I think of heirloom beans, I literally don't know any other company than yours, and I think that's gotta, you know, be a huge benefit for you.

I mean, before us, Zirsin was a big brand that, uh, was great. I argue that Camellia, the New Orleans brand that does the red beans for red beans and rice was, it's not quite heirloom beans, but they were just clearly they love beans. I don't think there's really much more. So no, and I do feel sometimes like I invented the wheel, not that I need credit for it, but it sometimes, it was, I don't think anyone worked harder to do it, to do this.

So, yeah. Uh, chefs and [00:32:00] home cooks. Thank you for your service. It's much appreciated. Oh, you know, it's interesting though. When I first started. No one wanted beans. Those who did were, like I said, mostly hippies who bought in the food co op, and I was learning about nutrition, which I didn't really care that much about.

I just thought this is a great indigenous American food that we've taken for granted, and I thought that's really what interests me, but doing the farmer's market, the health people were the cheapest, to be honest with you. They didn't buy, and they wanted to lecture you. It was having a chef come in and totally get it.

And it's like, Oh, okay. So this is how I'm going to do this. I'm going to aim high and have things trickle down. So it really was when you could impress a chef, especially if a chef came to your stall and everyone would sit around while they told their tales about how to cook beans or whatever, it really was the smartest thing to do.

So I think through the whole thing, it's like, how [00:33:00] good can we be? And I think people like the idea of moral food, but they don't really buy it. So it really, how delicious is it? And you, the secret is you can have delicious moral food. And that's, I think what beans are. I have a, like a kind of question about like cooking beans, like how interchangeable are.

Them, you know, like, I don't know. Like if I wanted to try some new beans, do you just buy a bag? I know you have cooking instructions on your website, but you know, again, I don't have that much experience besides what I can, you know, I've bought some of your beans before, but you have a wide variety and if I want to try new beans, like where do I start?

You just buy a bag and try a bunch of stuff. Yes. And the technique for us is always the same. I mean, a big, like a big runner bean is going to take a lot longer and lentils can go really fast, but basically you saute onion and garlic, put a bay leaf, if you have it, and then put the beans in and then. Add water, [00:34:00] and sometimes people add broth or a pork bone, and even though I'm an omnivore, I don't really think you need to do that, because the heirloom beans have enough going for them.

And then I bring things up to a really rapid boil for about 10 minutes, and just boil the hell out of them, and then I turn it down really low, and depending on how much time I have, I love the most gentle of simmers, and I think that produces the best beans. But, you know, whether it's garbanzos or runner can, I mean, all the beans will benefit from that technique, I would say.

And then you keep the lid ajar to help control the simmering and close it when it seems like nothing's happening. Open it wider if it's too much. That sounds pretty simple. Um, it is. And, uh, I do it once a week in a clay pot. And what about age on beans? You know, is there shelf life? I'm sure fresher is better, but actually I just found a bag of beans in my pantry the other [00:35:00] day that, you know, I don't actually even remember when I got them.

You know, I'm sure they're safe to eat, but what are, what are your guidelines as far as like, I don't know, freshness, perishability, you know, is there a point where you should just like pitch a bag of beans? And how old are the beans that you get at like the regular grocery store that aren't Rancho Gordo?

Is there any estimation? Well, we were the first people to put a Best Buy date on beans. Beans never had a Best Buy date because they can be eaten for so many years. The problem is the quality starts to disintegrate. And you have that one pot that just never cooks and you don't know what you did. And usually that would mean that's an older bean.

Those I would soak, for sure, and maybe don't expect quite so much. But, uh, no, you know, they supposedly they find beans in caves that are 150 years old and they're fine or even longer. So it just, I really would prefer you eat them within two years. I [00:36:00] think that is the sweet spot, but if they're four years, you could still do it.

Just, I would say and a grocery store in the Midwest where there isn't a lot of bean culture. I can't, I mean, years and years, those, I don't think, I don't know, you could kind of look at them and the darker they are, the less freshly are as a, as a rule. Well, it's not like the bags are that big anyway. I mean, if you're buying a bag of beans with the intention of eating them, uh, it seems kind of unreasonable, you know, unless like me, you had a bag fall somewhere that you would have a bag of beans for two years.

I can't imagine having a bag of beans in my pantry for two years intentionally. But I wouldn't hesitate to eat two year old beans. I would, I definitely would do that. It's the five and six year olds. Like, hmm, maybe there's something else I can cook. What in the realm of beans or anything haven't we talked about that we need to, or you want to talk about before we get out of here today?

Anything? I have a new book coming out with Tenspeed Press. [00:37:00] Oh, very cool. Yeah. So in September, I think mid September, the bean book written by me and Julia Newberry will be published by 10 speed press and it's. It's 288 pages. I don't want to say it's the definitive book on beans, but it is the definitive book on beans.

So we were working on it for quite a long time and then we did the photos and I'm looking at the layout and I'm really, really happy. We have done a lot of self publishing because the publishing industry has its own problems, but TED speech has been great and it's been a real treat. So I might be going around the country.

Ooh, I'll keep my eye out for that. I'm always up for some in person cookbook celebrity sightings and signings. Celebrity. very much. Yes. I was in a restaurant though, and I, [00:38:00] Handed the waiter my card. He goes, Oh, Rancho Gordo. And he was Mexican. He goes, you know, my father was really upset. Cause he thought, you know, you're taking our food and ruining it.

Then he started eating your beans and he won't eat anything, but Rancho Gordo now. And I was really, really happy. And then we started talking about. Veracruz where he was from. And I said, please don't tell anyone about this because, uh, it's our little secret and I don't want it to become Tulum or Oaxaca, which are two places I used to love, but I, there's too many Americans now, so I don't go.

I love Tulum. I mean, I've only been once and I wish I could spend more time there, but, um, yeah, it was a beautiful place and probably my favorite place that I've been to in Mexico. Yeah, I actually haven't been since 2000 and watching the Noma thing was like, I'm sure it's good, but it's Mexico's changing really fast.

It used to be my little secret and it's interesting watching, uh, the changes. So don't tell anyone about Vera Cruz though, cause it's really my favorite. [00:39:00] Okay. We'll keep that on the quiet there. Okay. Despite mentioning that you're on your podcast. Uh, well, thanks so much for coming on the show today. I'm so glad you took the time to join me.

Anytime obviously I love talking about beans and it's been a fun ride. I'll say that. So I love talking about it, especially when people know what I'm talking about. I have a lot of people who like eating beans, talking about beans. I told a few people you were going to come on the show and they were really excited about this.

So I'm hoping there's some people who want to hear some bean talk out there. No, I love what you're doing. You're doing something really clever. You continue. And for all of our listeners, this has been Chris with Chefs Without Restaurants. I hope you enjoyed the show and have a great week. You're still here?

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