How to Make and Use Masa with Masienda Founder Jorge Gaviria

Tortillas. Sopes. Tamales. Pupusas. None of these would be possible without one thing. Corn, but more specifically, masa. I'm Chris spear. And this is Chefs Without Restaurants. The show where I speak with culinary entrepreneurs and people working in the food and beverage industry outside of a traditional restaurant setting. Today's guest is Jorge Gaviria, founder of Masienda, and author of the new book, Masa. If you've ever seen any of my blog posts or cooking videos, or maybe you've hired me to cook for you, you know how much I love, tortillas, tacos and all things masa. That's why I was so excited to have Jorge on the podcast this week. I've been buying masa harina from Messina for a few years now. But Jorge didn't start there. In the beginning, it was just corn. He went to Mexico to find the best corn and wanted to be able to ship it to restaurants who would then be making their own matzah in house. Actually, he really thought he was going to open up a tortilleria. But found out that was going to be a much more challenging endeavor. So on the show, you're gonna get the origin story of mossy panda. And I made sure that Jorge gave a little overview about an externalization, which is the process of turning corn into masa. We're only going to touch on that. But if you'd really like to get an in depth look about the first 100 or so pages of his book, really dig into everything from corn anatomy to comb, owls, a masa timeline, and even how to nixtamal eyes and grind your own corn at home. And for those who just want to buy the masa harina, I asked him about things like water temperature, hydration, and the differences between the corn types. I also want to talk to him about brand partnerships, because Masienda has teamed up with a lot of companies like Jacobson Salt Co, Made in and Hayden Flour Mills. So I want to see how those relationships came about. But if there's anything I'd like you to get out of this episode, it's that making tortillas at home is so easy. And I think if you love tacos, you should definitely be doing this. I've found that this is one of the best things you can do with kids. I mean, unless they don't like tacos, right? But this is one of those things that my kids really get excited about, you know, I'll make the dough and then my son will roll the balls, my daughter will press them on the press and then I'll put them on the griddle. So if you're someone who likes Mexican food and anything that's made with masa, just go on the masina website and order some masa harina I think you're really going to be pleased and kind of surprised at how easy this is, if you've never done it before. I have never next symbolizes mountain corn. And Jorge has me thinking that maybe that's something I should try. I'll let you know how that goes. And of course I love connecting with people in my community and audience. So find me on Instagram at Chefs Without Restaurants, and go to chefswithoutrestaurants.org. To get more information on how our organization is helping food entrepreneurs build and grow their businesses. You can get links to the private Facebook group, sign up for our newsletter, and get in our database so I can help personal chefs caterers and food truck operators get more leads. Hey, welcome to the show. Thanks so much for coming on.

Thanks so much for having me.

I'm excited to talk to you. I've been trying to get you on the show for actually a couple of years. Now you might not have even known but well before you even had a book out. So I'm actually kind of glad that it didn't work out earlier on, because now we can talk about this book you have. So you're just coming off of a book tour, I was lucky enough to see you in DC. So thanks for coming through and talking to us.

Of course, yeah, it's great to see you and finally put a face to the name.

So for all of our listeners, this is going to be all about masa, tortillas and the like today. So I want to kind of start with your background like food. Are you someone who always grew up? Loving Food? I mean, some people love food, some tone, some are, you know, I was a little fat kid in the kitchen. Did you? And did you end up working in restaurants? Like what's kind of your background and relationship with food?

Yeah, I grew up definitely loving food had a strong passion for it early inclination to just like think about it all the time. And then I mean, I just growing up in Miami, my dad is an attorney or was an attorney. And I kind of just plan on going down the same path and everything was sort of like, seemed like all the all the stars were aligned to go, you know, down the same route. And then I decided, like sometime after graduating from college, and I taught for two years and in Brooklyn, I was like, you know, I was ready to go to law school. And actually, like, wasn't that ready. Like, there was just something kind of blocking me and I read a book by Danny Meyer, who was sort of a, an early hero of mine. And he you know, he talked about not going to law school and instead going to, you know, live in Italy and kind of work, you know, work around Italy for a year before getting into the restaurant business. And I was like, This is my reason. This is my excuse to do exactly the same thing. And so showed my dad the book, I was like, this is this is my plan. I It's a plan without a plan. I'm just gonna go to Italy, and I'm gonna farm for a year and then figure out what happens. And he's like, Well, you know, it's so funny. Your grandfather, my dad was in the restaurant business. I was like, I thought he was an attorney. And he's like, he was an attorney. But he actually was more passionate about food and ended up doing food for his majority of its life, which I had no idea. We were not that close. So it was interesting to hear that it was sort of like already in my DNA, you know, and, you know, I had sort of the family blessing. So I worked in Italy for a year I did a farming and butchering apprenticeship out there and then came back, I worked for Danny Meyer, as a cook at one of his restaurants in Manhattan called Maialino. I then worked at Blue Hill at Stone barns and Blue Hill in New York. And it was when I was at Blue Hill that I started to think about kind of, you know, just the relationship I had with food, my values as a consumer, you know, had evolved a lot since I was a kid. And the foods that I grew up eating, you know, in a Latin household, to me hadn't really like reflected those changes that I was seeing in real time at these farm to table restaurants. And I just thought that the sourcing could be more thoughtful in the story and approach. And I just wanted to see those foods I grew up eating more thoughtfully represented in you know, in the grocery store, and you know, and supply chain. So I kind of set out to build that platform, and I started with masa.

Was there a template for you to follow at the time was anyone doing any really good high quality masa out there,

no one was doing really good high quality masa, which I thought was interesting. I was, you know, just kind of blown away by this thing. You know, like, I could have a tortilla, I could have tortilla chips, tamales, and actually don't like tomatoes as much. It's like one secret about me. But you know, all of these foods that I love, I was just kind of blown away by the fact that none of them. Very few folks could tell me kind of the story and the process that went into making them and I was just kind of curious about that relationship. The more I kind of understood it, the more I was like, Oh, my goodness, this is such a rich, you know, staple in so many ways. If only people knew more about it. I think you know, Rancho Gordo had been doing this for beans for a while. I thought that was really compelling. Anson Mills was doing it for kind of southern forget what he calls them like antebellum you know, great. I think that's the word he uses. Yeah, it's very specific. And then, for me, I was like, I think this needs to be done for masa and the idea was actually to start Dorthea Yeah, like a tortilla factory. Kinda like at Tartine bakery was my idea. And I was like, this is going to be half the theater. And it's going to sort of really show people how much work and love goes into making tortillas and masa. But I just, I couldn't, I think one piece that was missing for me, it's not like I had a lease or anything like that. But the one other piece that was missing for me was that I couldn't, I couldn't quite land on like, what was the right supply chain? What was the right raw ingredient to start with, there's plenty of corn in the US, but none of it was really kind of doing justice to the staple of masa, like I felt like it needed to be. And that's when I started looking in Mexico, for solutions and supply chain answers to that, that problem. When was this? That was 2013, when I started doing research, and then 2014, is when I started to actually work in Mexico to, to find solutions on the ground. And it turns out that folks had been doing a lot of this sort of supply chain preservation, that comes with heirloom corn. You know, there's about 3 million smallholder farmers in Mexico that do this, you know, just they preserve the world's genetic supply of corn. It's basically like an open seed bank, you know, in the, in the fields, and, you know, the various regions of Mexico, it's like a living, breathing seedbank. And you these are, traditionally they're a little older farmers, they are folks who are certainly needing, needing some support, and kind of some additional resources for, you know, offloading any surplus materials they have, which became very hard to compete with commodity corn, you know, especially after NAFTA. So there was like, a real impact opportunity there. And there had been folks who had been doing doing the work of documenting these landrace, heirloom corn varieties, and, you know, working with farmer populations to improve them, and through natural, sort of, like, you know, breeding practices. And, you know, what they just needed was a market for it. And so I just a light bulb went off, I was like, This is it, this is the way to, to kind of explore building a supply chain, and you know, the rest, the rest is kind of history.

How was the reception when you went down there? Because I'm sure there's a lot of people who come from the US, you know, businesses go down there kind of exploit these people, were they kind of weary, or were they welcoming, when you came down and started to kind of explore this process?

It's interesting, I think, there were definitely some communities that had been burned, not even by foreigners, but by folks within their community who said that they would take the corn on consignment, you know, it's a lot of work, corn is very cumbersome, you know, like a 50 pound bag of corn takes up a good amount of space. And, you know, if you've got several bags of this, and you want to go take it to a market, and you're gonna have to figure out transportation for that, you're gonna have to figure out like a market stall, it's quite costly to bring to market for these subsistence based growers. And a lot had been burned in that process where they would say, you know, neighbor would be like, Oh, let me go take this on consignment for you, and then they'd never come back with money. Or, you know, they, they short them on the payment. And so I think that was actually mostly the kind of the thought process that happened for some, not all of them. It wasn't actually about being a foreigner, I think they were just sort of more entertained than anything about the fact that a foreigner would want corn to export to the US, which is the largest producing corn country in the world, by a long, very long shot. So yeah, I think there was sort of just a curiosity, a little bit of skepticism about just a model like, you know, an equitable model in general. But very soon after starting, you know, I think word got out that this was an option, and the price was right, and people were getting paid immediately. And, you know, I think it sort of one thing led to another and it built a lot of trust in the communities that we started in and then that we grew into

when you started this, were you talking to chefs and people like, was there an interest? Did you know that there was going to be a market for this? Or was it a hunch, and just like, something you hoped would happen?

I honestly was really fully invested in this idea of opening my own tortilla. Yeah. So it wasn't actually until I got to Mexico and I realized, just like how much work it was going to take to build the supply chain alone that I was I kind of took a step back from the tortilleria idea and was, you know, like, Alright, how do we build the supply chain with a ready to go market? And it was really naive. I mean, honestly, I got lucky. I worked in the restaurant industry and was still had my, you know, one foot in it at that time, from a restaurant like I was actually working in Blue Hills still. And so I reached out to a couple folks who had a relationship with Mexican food. And you know, it just so happened that Enrique Olvera who had I literally checked his coat at Blue Hill. It was such a, it was such a random connection. But I reached out to him and said, Hey, I think you It sounds like you're opening up a restaurant in a couple of months. I'm actually going to be sourcing this corn for a tortilla Ria, I'm starting, but was wondering if you wanted to, you know, buy any corn and you can, you know, do this whole process, you know, build a massive program in your in your restaurant, and he was like, you know, it's actually amazing timing. That's, uh, that's my plan. I just need really good. I need great corn for that. And we haven't really figured that out. And I was like, oh, man, this is amazing. This is too good to be true. And like, you know, just so happened like he Sean Brock, you know, had been going through the same process. He was opening up Mineiro at the time when he was still with the neighborhood. That neighborhood

group neighborhood that yeah, that sounds right down in Charleston. Yeah.

You know, taco Maria was opening up wanted to do the same thing. Carlos Salgado was interested you had Rosie Oh, Sanchez, who was leaving no money to go open up her own place. Like it was kind of this perfect storm of high profile chefs wanting to open up their own concepts around masa. And kind of like uncharted territory, at least in the US like nobody. And you know, this kind of fine dining, really, like no restaurants had had very few had really publicly ever kind of like, gone out of their way to source and produce masa from scratch. And so there was just kind of like a moment that we were all sort of waiting to see like how it would be received. If there was a real translation kind of, from from kind of that farm to table experience for masa. And sure enough, like critics took note, guests took note. And the more kind of notoriety and celebration that these restaurants got, the more there was an interest in trying to replicate what they did to make such excellent masa.

And we didn't have I mean, I don't know at the time, there weren't that many high end finer dining, like Mexican restaurants in the US, not that I can really think of

before this sort of like, quote, unquote, modern Mexican movement got started around honestly, 2014 with postman and Bejan, and, you know, taco, Medea and many others. You know, it was sort of the authentic Mexican movement. And what's interesting about that movement, and this was sort of really punctuated by like, you know, certainly Rick Bayless, probably the poster child of that movement and did so much to educate consumers on you know, just what real Mexican food should be or looks like. Tastes like and you don't think that there was you know, Rosa Mexicano? Roberta 71 years, like, there were, there were examples of this, but nobody was making masa and house. It was just it was sort of considered a daunting process really kind of, like highly technical, difficult, you know, from from an access standpoint, like, where do you get the corn and, you know, again, corn, corn is sort of cumbersome, it's a bit dense, like, where do you store the corn in a small New York City restaurant? So like, you know, how do you mill it? Like, these were all questions that had no one had ever really needed to figure it out? Because there was no, there was no, I think, like marketplace to create a solution for it. And also, it was just sort of where we were in the evolution of, you know, our kind of active consumption, you know, it was like, it was a big enough step to do a Malay from scratch, you know, versus getting a paste or, you know, buying masa from a local Dorthea. That was enough, you know, that was sort of just where the starting point was. And it just the conversation just kept evolving.

I'm fortunate enough to say that I was actually literally the first table sat at cozmic. On opening night. I feel it was so cool. And so weird. I was like the first one. So at one point, I was like, sitting in literally like an empty dining room. No way. Yeah, I was in town for the star chefs Conference, which is in October, and I just remember seeing, like, you know, something popped up that like, reservations are now open. I was like, Oh, wow, I'll be in New York, because I don't live in New York. And I made a reservation. I got like the 530 reservation. It's funny because Enrique did like a mainstage demo that night, and I saw him like two hours before and I was there for that. Were you. So I was like, Chef, like I'm eating in your restaurant. Two hours. Like, are you? Are you going to be there tonight? But yeah, I managed to stay for his talk and then hightail it across town and sat down. So I also joked that I think I was the first person to probably Instagram that corn husk Marang that became like, the viral dish for that year. Yeah. That's

so funny, man. That's wild. What a time if that was. Yeah, it was a moment. But it wasn't until Pete Wells wrote his review that I think like, I think they were some skepticism. You know, like it was a it was an outsider, you know, wasn't a local New York chef. We'd seen a lot of folks fail. You know, like, there's some high profile chefs who came in to New York from out of town and just couldn't it didn't land but yeah, because they just crushed it. And it just set up a real kind of opportunity for others to jump in and made masa look really good. And I'd

also say, you know, like Alex do packs book tacos that that was kind of when I really got interested in making tortillas at home. I mean, I'm not Nick symbolizing my own corn but just like using good masa and that's kind of what led me to you is okay, I'm gonna make these tacos. Sure I can go buy, you know, my steak in the grocery store. But what's out there? And that's, I think how I found you, you know, you kind of still knew at the time, I don't remember when that book came out. And that kind of led me down the rabbit hole of like, really awesome masa.

Oh, I love that. Yeah. 2015 I think is when that came out. And yeah, I mean, Alex, Alex was like, I mean, honestly, I think he really created a space in New York for even just the conversation of modern Mexican food, which, you know, for he's he's, he's self self deprecating about it, you know, I'm just like a white guy from from from Massachusetts. But he really like, I mean, he invited Enrique to one of his first push projects, you know, which was sort of these guest chef appearances that you would do and really think outside the box about Mexican cuisine. And, you know, a lot of credit goes to him for just tinkering and creating a space for for kind of the evolution of Mexican food, certainly in New York, but obviously, as a as a canvas for the country.

What was your product line when you started? Were you just selling corn and all this stuff to have people make their own masa? Or did you start with like masa harina as well? What was that timeframe like,

literally just selling? Well, at that time, it was 170 155 pound bags of corn, because I thought it was cheaper to a was cheaper. I was like, oh, I'll just double the amount in one bag and just spend basically money on one bag. Except I didn't realize like, you know, you had to lift that. And I was one who was making deliveries in those early days. So it was a little bit it was a little bit tough. But it was just corn. And, you know, finally figured out that 55 pounds was a more appropriate bag size. And then it really kind of just was a slow evolution. I mean, there were, there were places you could buy cow, I recommended those places to folks and just really focused on the corn. And then over time, you know, as the kind of the team expanded and my bandwidth expanded, we started to kind of take on other supply chains and other kinds of opportunities between, you know, the cow to mattina just finding the right place to do that to, you know, all of the range of things we do today. Milling equipment, like that was a really big one the time it was just so expensive for these restaurants to get started, you know, making masa and house like you had to wait six to nine months to get a mill from like one of like three places in the United States that would make it just like a really out dated system for buying the machinery. And we ended up creating a solution for that, like a tabletop mill solution that uses basalt stones just basically shrunken down, which has just been completely amplified the conversation and you know, there's now 1000s of home cooks around the world that do this with equipment that just wasn't available at that time when I started.

Well, I want to circle back to that because that is something we're talking about. Can we go back to a little bit? You wrote the book, literally called masa and there's so much info. So much great reading. But for our listeners who maybe don't have as much of a background on this, can you give us like a Cliff's Notes version on what masa is and kind of like the next civilization process like for people who don't understand what you're doing to the corn to get it to that point where it's masa or muscle Reena?

Yeah, so masa is the Spanish word for dough. In this context, you know, certainly in Mexico and other parts of of modern day Mesoamerica even parts of South America masa, more specifically refers to a corn dough. And that corn is special because it's gone through an alkaline treatment, which is sounds like more intimidating than it actually is. It just means that it's been cooked in some water with a little dash of like alkaline you know, powder. In this case, calcium hydroxide is what's most commonly used. And that just basically means it helps break down the corn and it makes it nutritious so you don't need to worry too much about what happens unless you are curious and you can read the book. But you know, the the main gist of it is that it's really special. It's kind of this it's really alchemy, what happens to corn when it when it is treated in this alkaline solution. And that that process is called an externalization. So yeah, masa is the result of that you take the corn that's been cooked in, in that alkaline water, it's soaked in that alkaline water, the science and kind of miracle of externalization has happened to it. And then you rinse it off and you grind it in some way or another. So if you're working at home, you can use a you know, Cuisinart food processor, you can use a hand mill, which is what I would recommend if you do didn't want to make that kind of that big leap investment into more detail. You can use it the salt Molina like the mojito. Basically, you're just going to kind of get that down into a dough. And at that point, it's called masa.

So do you think that's realistic for someone who's maybe an amateur cook at home? Like they don't have plans to do this as a business, just a recreational thing? I mean, I think people have gotten used to doing more intricate things at home, people are doing fermentation at home, they're messing with koji. They're doing sourdough, how realistically easy would this be like, I've never done it? Is this something I should jump in and try?

Totally, I mean, even if just wants to kind of relate to how magical of a process it is, like, I actually think it's way more straightforward than fermentation or breadmaking. Like, I find those far more intimidating, just, you know, gases and like explosions. And you know, I don't know, just like, it seems, it's literally more volatile to me. But yeah, I think it's really fun. That's how I started honestly, it was just sort of understanding kind of what that process looked like. And when I got to know it, I just have like, a deeper reverence for for it, you know, it doesn't mean that I do it all the time. In fact, like, you know, I use my sadena Most of the time now. Because it's, there's a solution for it, it's an it doesn't skimp on the quality. You know, it will certainly, like I said, deepen the connection and respect you have for it and the culture is behind it. And I think that that's as good a reason as any to, to give it a shot, even if you don't do it forever.

And I don't think people necessarily realize how easy it is to make tortillas or masa based products, especially if you're using the muscle Reena, like, it's literally two ingredients, usually right like that, and water and I tell people all the time, like, you love tacos, why aren't you making them like buy a bag of this stuff, add water, and there you go, right? Like, you don't even have to have a tortilla price. You can roll it out, you can do all kinds of things. It's just a two ingredient. And one of them is water that you already have. But I think people are still so intimidated just to even make tortillas at home. And I don't know why. So it's something I've been preaching for a couple of years. And I'm always providing them resources, quite often, many of years to get them started on the tortilla making mode.

Thank you. Yeah, I think if there's any place to start, that's it. You know, like, it's, it's shockingly easy. There is like zero science, you don't even need to worry about it. You literally add water, you form a dough into whatever shape you want. And like it's magical, it's it is such a different experience, the payoff is so big. That work is so little. And it's it's it changes your relationship with food for sure.

And I'm always trying to eke out the best results. So I have a couple technical questions, and maybe they're, you know, it doesn't matter but water temperature, is there a specific water temperature for when you're mixing? And then two, should you be resting your toe? Do you have opinions on these questions?

I think that warm water is really nice. Just because it you know, it just sort of like activates the masa it starts to smell really good. It kind of just blooms the flavor a little bit, just like tap warm water, you know, like nothing crazy. And it kind of just mimics what it feels like when it's coming off the stones. You know, it's like quite warm, because of the friction that stones create once they're being kind of they're grinding against one another. It's just nice. It kind of recreates that experience that fresh fresh masa so resting time you know, I was just talking to Rick Bayless about this we did a little video together he likes to rest it I don't I don't it's interesting to think about I never really thought about it that much. From a resting perspective. I just want to make sure that the the masa is wet to touch but like not sticky and honestly I think that after resting it I ended up needing to add a little more water to it because masa dries out so fast that you know I it's kind of six one by half a dozen the other to me.

I don't even seen people like vacuum seal it like they do pasta dough. So like speed up hydration of hydration was an issue if this is just like overcomplicating things.

Yeah, it's definitely overcomplicating it. I think if you take like a baker's approach to masa, you could give yourself a headache.

Now, can your masa harina be used interchangeably with any recipe you find out there? You know, there's a recipe for tamales and it's using my sake assuming you don't have your product. Is it like a one for one switch?

Yeah, yeah, exactly. I mean, for tamales specifically. There's like quite a few camps on how folks you know, approach it. There's some you know, some really like kind of like a grittier, coarser masa for the Manas. I don't, I think I mentioned earlier I don't really love them and so it's not my favorite way to enjoy masa. It's kind of just the texture for me, but, but Yeah, certainly every recipe that I wrote in the book, you know, between the traditional recipe shapes, you know, Master shapes that you find throughout Latin America to the modern masa recipes, you can use, you can use mass Idina for all of that. It's all interchangeable. And in fact, it's really cool to kind of with a new appreciation, go back to some of these classic Mexican cookbooks and just, you know, approach it with either homemade masa or masa, Idina have a higher quality than what's recommended in those because I think most were like, oh, yeah, just use my Seco. But there were so few options when a lot of these books were written.

Yeah, I have a friend who makes proposals. She actually used to have a pusa food truck. And she taught me and my family how to make them but she was using my Seca. And I didn't know like, she gave me a recipe. And of course, actually, she's not using a recipe, right? She's doing it by touch, but I'm not at that point. So I started looking at recipes online, and was just wondering, oh, could I take this, you know, my standard product I have and just swap it in. And I hadn't tried that yet. So knowing that we're totally ready to make proposals with it at home, because it's become one of my family's favorite things to eat. No, that's awesome. Yeah, and the book is great. I made space for the first time last week, I don't know why I've never done it before just hadn't gotten around to it, but uh, decided to take a crack at that. And they came out pretty good,

right, like, so easy, so satisfying. I think like I just rediscovered my love for soap as in the last couple of weeks, even which is so fun about just all the shapes in general, there really is like a different shape and texture and kind of flavor for every every occasion. And I made

the masa cookies, which were great. Even though I freestyle that a little bit, I probably need to go back I usually when I try a recipe for the, for the first time, usually make it by the book. But this one, I just had different ingredients on hand, it didn't want to go to the store. So I kind of winged it, but I was really happy with how they came out. And I'll probably go back and make it like by the book next time, but I was really happy to see that in there.

I'm nervous to deviate, especially on pastry related, you know, foods and like a like a cookie. But yeah, just Stephens, the chef who put that one together is just like so, so talented. And it. I'm not even a fan of of sweets, honestly. And that one, that one definitely converted me.

So we've touched on a little bit, you've got a book, I'd love to hear about the book, how did the book come about? Was it just time to write the definitive book on masa?

That's it in a nutshell. I mean, you know, it's, I think it was a natural evolution of just what I was doing day to day. And and I think the funny thing is that when I started my CNN 2014 I was just looking into some of my heroes, you know, in the culinary universe, and just the fact that this food would really humble them, and they didn't have answers, you know, and they were just, it wasn't like, they could read some book on it and go to work. Like, it was a lot of trial and error. And of course, like, you know, being a purveyor of kind of the raw ingredients, it was up to me to kind of to really help guide that experience. So I had to learn and guide at the same time. And I just kind of got to a point where, you know, it's just thinking to myself, it's crazy. Like, we're sharing so many notes, and there's so much kind of knowledge we're accumulating here. You know, this is a largely oral tradition. How much more would folks dive into this? If there was something actually really, you know, written on this subject, you know, more than like a blog post on the internet, or, you know, a YouTube video? And yeah, I think it was just sort of one step led to another we did a small little like primer booklet, you know, shorts, that kind of thing. I have that.

The next small book. Yeah, yeah. Thank

you, man. You heard like, way early on all this stuff. You're, you're ahead of the game. But yeah, we we did that. And that was the demand was crazy. I mean, more folks just kept ordering it, we kind of we did several printings of it. And then at some point, I was just like, Alright, I think the questions aren't being answered anymore. You know, people are asking for more. And there was just so much more to say. So, you know, timing wise, I think that the market had kind of evolved to make a book like masa possible. I knew that there was a real movement behind it. And you know, what was really missing was a text to kind of bring it all together. So that was a that was it. I got the book greenlit. Honestly, like in March 2020, just before the pandemic got started. And it was a great thing to do during the pandemic, just sit down and write.

I guess that gives you a lot of time to work on, we all had time that we weren't expecting to have. So I guess kind of a blessing in some ways, at least, I'm sure you had a lot less going on than normal.

It was, you know, in some ways, it was the craziest time because we were trying to pivot the business to be more friendly to get into the home cook in home consumer. But in other ways, it was just it was great, you know, like to get, you know, the, I think the experience rounded out for a home cook like a cookbook is, is just speaks that language, you know from start to finish. So it was it was very complimentary of of kind of the direction the business was headed and also just kind of very cathartic to look back and put all these words and thoughts and kind of data points together in an organized way that people could follow.

Did you see an uptick from the home consumer during COVID? You know, we talk a lot about everyone was baking bread. But did you see also that people were really interested in making tortillas while they were home?

Completely? Yeah, I mean, it's so funny, just doing this book tour over the last couple of weeks, the amount of folks who came in and said, Man, I started working with your product during pandemic, you know, and that's when we launched our mass it now that's when we launched our tortilla press, like we really, you know, it was just a perfect moment of user adoption. And for sure, I mean, at that time, restaurants weren't open for a while and we are actually stuck, we're gonna go out of business, but it's crazy. I mean, the pandemic panic, purchasing was a real thing. But what's crazy is that it's stuck. You know, people really loved that experience, they really connected more deeply with that, with that staple that they probably took for granted before and you know, like me, once you once you taste it, there's really no going back. Like, everything else sucks.

That is true. For sure. Yeah. What are the differences in the four that you sell? Like, how do you know what to use? Or is it just playing around? Like, if you want to make a soap a you know, do you reach for the blue, the white, the yellow, the red? Do you have any guidance on that when selecting what? masa harina to use,

I wish I could really give you a more like thought. I mean, there's what I don't want to complicate it, I think like, at the end of the day, it's sort of whatever, whatever your your tastes and preferences at that moment, like, color is definitely the kind of we eat with our eyes. So whatever is looking most appetizing to you go for it, you know, there's also a whole world out there of people mixing colors together and kind of making a tie dye effect or, you know, like these really beautiful patterns. So I think like, it doesn't matter, you can make a really delicious sorbet or Dorthea from any of these things, tomatoes from any of these things. There are like slight flavor sort of variations, but like, at the end of the day, they all taste like excellent masa, you know, so it's just sort of like basic tasting notes. It's not as drastic as like, you know, let's say different kinds of breads, maybe

like rye bread from a sourdough or something

like that. Grapes. I mean, like, we use that analogy a lot, where it's like, oh, you know, this is sort of these corn has terroir, just like wine, and it does, but it's not as like, it's not as, I don't know, off the charts, you know, different like, different DNA grapes grown across the world, they're gonna taste pretty wildly different from each other. You know, compared to corn, there are definitely variations but like, when we're talking about Mexico, we're already kind of refining that, like that sourcing location already to a pretty specific part of the world. You know, then even further than that, we're getting kind of corns that are specifically suitable for masa. So they're all very complimentary, and you can't go wrong. But yeah, some fight some slight fake flavor variations, like the yellow for example, has like to me, some some, I mean, he shares beta carotene, right. So it's, that's what kind of gives it that yellowy pigmentation to it. And that's something that's commonly found in carrots and butternut squash. And so I find that there's some kind of notes of that there but still absolutely tastes like masa you know, in corn. Same thing with the white you know, the White comes from a white little do it has that kind of like movie theater buttered popcorn flavor to it, it's just like very richly, corny, in the right ways with like, a nice sort of like mouthfeel fat to it, that to me, like just means that the flavor lingers a little bit longer on your palate, and then the red and the blue. For me, the flavor is excellent. There's sort of a neediness to it, even like a light sweetness to it. But, you know, at the end of the day, the texture is just like impossibly soft of those, those, the monster that comes off of it. So, you know, I think you won't go wrong. Try them all.

And I've mixed them based on you know, I've got like a quarter cup of blue in the bag, and then I have a new bag of white and it's just like, mix them together.

Totally. You can totally do that. And it'll still yield the same. It's not like you're mixing like double zero flour. It's not it's not a question of the thickness, you know, or the grind. It's it's truly just at that point flavor.

And I think collaborations are great and you've worked with some really great companies like Jacobson, salt made in Hayden flower, how do you go about selecting the businesses that you want to work with? Because you know, that represents you as much as anything you do? I think so how did you choose those brands that you wanted to collab with?

I mean, I think they're, they're all brands that we respect as doing similar things for their respective, you know, staples, so Jacobson, big fan of the quality of salts that they make, and just as a consumer, really enjoy them. So it's just fun to kind of bring my own personal, like, pride preference is to light and this way

through, like, you prefer to put worms in their salt.

Yeah, I was like, man, I've just like, who does great salt, you know, like, when you when you, when you think about, like, you know, what are the options out there, Jacobsen is like the one that comes to mind, it's the best. So it's like, let's try this with some, some, you know, like bringing a delicacy in Mexico to life using one of my favorite salts there is and, you know, that was just, it's still one of my favorite collaborations we've done, you know, made into such a great job, they're really kind of at that intersection of craftsmanship and kind of culinary experience. And, you know, blue carbon steel, like, they just have such a great supply chain for that great production partners. And it just said something new about the product that we knew and cared about as a Komal. So, you know, it's just, they're, they're, they're logical in a lot of ways. Like, they're just again, like, brands that I love and will, you know, kind of dream about working with one day and then that comes to life?

And how important is it to have a Komal versus, you know, a cast iron pan, I actually use a baking steel on my stove is like a big flat top for that. So what are your thoughts on cooking, just like a basic tortilla?

Yeah, you know, I think that you can use whatever you got, you want to make sure it's like as close to a nonstick surface as possible, so that you don't get a lot of kind of bits of masa sticking to it. You know, honestly, a high enough temperature will ensure that pretty much anything doesn't stick, but masa can be you know, you gotta be careful, you don't, don't overdo it. So I recommend we have a Komal, that is fantastic. It's made of blue carbon steel, which you can really regulate the temperature quickly on, you know, it's, it responds quickly to, if you were to change the temperature. It's not like cast iron, where it's just like a lot of retain heat, it's just hard to work with. It's also like a fraction of the weight. So little shout out plug to the Komal there, which basically is just a griddle, you know, it's a circular griddle, but I, if I don't have that if I'm like at my in laws house, you know, and they haven't seasoned their Komal that I left them, you know, and taking as good care of it as I would, you know, we can use like a nonstick pan will work just fine as well. You know, I don't do the straight on the burner technique as much, I just, it gets a little messy, and it's a little too, too aggressive of a heat. But folks do it and love it. So I think where there's a will there's a way at the end of the day. Yeah,

most definitely, I'm gonna have to pick one of those up again, like I love using my baking steel. I don't know if you've ever used one of those, but it's also like a 40 pound piece of steel. So you know, I work as a personal chef, and I do tortillas in people's homes a lot. So like carrying this gigantic piece of steel doesn't really work for me. So I do bring the tortilla press and all my gear. So I'm in the market to get something to take my tortilla show on the road and make it a little easier on me a little bit. But I love the press. I think I bought the tortilla press like first release, like maybe the day, I don't know, you send your emails and I open your emails. And I'm always like, huh, I never knew I needed that. But I think I'm gonna get one. So I think like, the first day that email went, I was like, oh, limited edition tortilla press. Yeah, I'm gonna get one of those.

Well, thank you. Yeah, I mean, it's honestly, those are just like, again, you know, we're working with restaurants over the years. And they just kept asking us to bring this one particular tortilla press back from Mexico that was just hard to find in the US, like impossible to find and even hard to find in Mexico. And we just kept doing it and do it. And we're like, you know, this really is great. Like, let's just make this a little bit more widely accessible. So I'm glad you enjoy it. It's, it's deceivingly simple and yet, like makes such a big difference in bringing a tortilla to

life. When I tell everyone the most fun thing we do as a family cooking is making tortillas and having like Taco Night and that tortilla price makes it even easier. Like for my kids. I have 10 year old twins and it's you know, it's like a nice big surface area there. So we get the three man show like, you know, my son's rolling them, my daughter's pressing them and then handing them to me and I'm throwing them on the flat top there. So their favorite thing I tell people if you want your kids to eat, get them engaged in the cooking process, and I can't think of anything more fun like than just making tortillas at home.

Totally. Yeah, it's, I mean, you just nailed it. i You want a hypnotic way to get your kids in involved in something you know and like just focused on a quote unquote activity like parents, we're all looking for activities. There is like no greater activity. Masa as far as I'm concerned.

This so everyone out there, go get your tortilla presses get some really good masa and just start making tortillas at home. That's That's my plug. They're

amazing. Yeah, guy, what he said.

So, obviously the book still very new. But do you have anything else you're working on right now that's new and exciting.

Oh, man, getting the book out there has been a an amazing lift. So we're still still very much in the early innings of that and trying to just promote it as much as we can and get folks to just share your experience, Chris, I mean, doing something at home, you know, bringing masa to life at home is such a fun thing to do. And so easy. So that's top of mind right now. But yeah, next book already thinking about that. Wanting to kind of deepen the kind of the recipe, relationship there and just kind of work with more creatives in the space to bring some cool recipes to life. Lots of lots of secrets, I can't share too much. But we've got a lot in store in the next couple of months from from icns point of view. We're working with more brands locally in Mexico to kind of to celebrate what they do. And some folks that I'm really excited about sharing with the world. We've got, we've got more in store soon.

When it becomes public, I will post it out across my channel. So make sure everyone knows

that you're so kind. Thank you.

Is there anything you want to share before we get out of here today? I mean, we could talk about masa and tortillas forever. But I want to make sure that you've said as much as you can that you want to get out there before we wrap it up today.

Just make a tortilla at home, use my sadena Do it once and tell me it didn't change your life or relationship to the food. That's all.

That's I mean, that's kind of my plug. That's what I say. It's really easy, right? And just go out there and do it.

Yeah, just get your hands dirty. It takes no time. And the payoff is so big. I promise you.

Well, you sold me. I hope you sold some new people out there. Thanks so much for coming on the show. I'm so glad we could finally do this. Thanks, Chris. Me too. And to all of our listeners. This has been Chris with the Chefs Without Restaurants podcast. Go to chefs without restaurants.org To find our Facebook group, mailing list and Chef database. The community is free to join. You'll get gig opportunities, advice on building and growing your business and you'll never miss an episode of our podcast. Have a great week.