Learn About Koji and Miso with Jeremy Umansky and Rich Shih of Koji Alchemy

Chris Spear: 0:00

Chefs Without Restaurants Episode 86 with rich ci and Jeremy Umansky from Koji alchemy, Welcome to the Chefs Without Restaurants podcast. I'm your host Chris Spear. On the show. I have conversations with culinary entrepreneurs and people in the food and beverage industry who took a different route. Their caterers, research chefs, personal chefs cookbook authors, food truckers, farmers, cottage bakers, and all sorts of culinary renegades. I myself fall into the personal chef category as I started my own personal chef business Perfect Little Bites 10 years ago. And while I started working in kitchens in the early 90s, I've literally never worked in a restaurant. On the show this week. I have chef Jeremy Umansky of Larder delicatessen and bakery in Cleveland, Ohio, and Rich Shih, the man behind the website and social media accounts ourcookquest. Together, they're the co authors of the book Koji Alchemy, which came out last year. I'm really excited to share this episode with you, Rich and I have been talking all things food and cooking for 11 years now. And I've taken hands on workshops with both rich and Jeremy. We start with a little backstory about how they got into food and cooking, and how they started using Koji and miso. So we talked about some of the innovative uses of Koji. And they even tease a couple of upcoming projects they have in the works. They also want to turn the tables and asked me a bunch of questions. So we talked a little bit about some of my favorite things to make. And I'm going to be doing a giveaway of their book Koji Alchemy. So if you head over to my Instagram, which is @ChefsWithoutRestaurants, you'll find all the info on how to enter and win a copy of this fantastic book. And once again, I recently started a Patreon to help support the Chefs Without Restaurants, organization, and podcast. So if you love what I'm doing here, please check it out. You can go to patreon.om/ChefsWithoutRestaurants, or the link is in the show notes. I really appreciate the support. And now on with the show. Thanks so much for listening, and have a great week. Hey, guys, welcome to the show. Thanks so much for coming on.

Rich Shih: 3:10

Thanks for having us.

Chris Spear: 3:12

I'm really excited to talk to you guys. I want to have you on the show for a little bit. I know a lot about what you guys are doing and can't wait to share it with my audience. So we're talking kind of all things miso Koji fermentation, wherever it goes today, right? Like, let's just share some interesting stuff with the people.

Jeremy Umansky: 3:30

Sounds good to us. We're all about it.

Chris Spear: 3:33

So like, three minutes, like a little bit of your culinary backstories. I want to know like, I'll start with you, Jeremy. Like, what are you doing? And how did you get there? Like, how did you end up in food?

Jeremy Umansky: 3:45

Yeah. For me, I've more or less always been in food. One of my first paying jobs around the time my bar mitzvah, my grandmother was a kosher caterer. And she said, Hey, kid, in the kitchen, let's, let's get some stuff done. So, you know, for me, it's it's pretty much always been there. I grew up in a very, you know, this Jewish, upper Midwestern family very food focused, you know, because it's food and cultural identity. And it isn't just Jews. I mean, it's everybody around the world. But definitely, you know, in Jewish families, that's a huge, huge concentration. So a lot of our individual identities is wound up in that. So growing up in that it just made sense that I'd be working in food, and I fell in love with it along the way, you know, various odd jobs throughout high school in this sort of thing, always in some sort of food based business, and eventually made the leap to go to culinary school. Did that met my beautiful wife there, she's a pastry chef and a baker. We lived in New York state and city for a long time and eventually made our way. At least for me back to Cleveland alleys from Norman Oakland. Homer, and decided it was time to start up our own thing. You know, and a huge driver was that the amount of instability in in the restaurant industry, you know, if you're going to be a working chef, a, you know, there's always Young Guns who are, you know, stronger, quicker, faster, more current, you know, so as you age as a chef, you know, there's always people who are going to be better than you and you know, more suited for the task at hand. And, you know, the The other aspect of that is just the general instability of certain sectors of the industry. So we decided having our own place would would be, you know, the ultimate goal. And in April of 2018, we opened up larger delicatessen and bakery. It's it's been a fun ride, we've we've gotten a little bit of attention we've been we were nominated for best new restaurant in America by the James Beard Foundation. And we were also nominated me, Allie and our business partner, Kenny, his best chefs, Great Lakes from the Beard Foundation. So, you know, we're doing something right for some people. So, you know, but it boils down to we enjoy what we're doing. We're having fun with it. And, you know, pandemic aside, things are fairly well for us. So

Chris Spear: 6:21

that's good to hear.

Unknown: 6:21

Yeah, that's,

Chris Spear: 6:22

that's kind of where my mind goes, like, I've never wanted to have this gigantic, like flagship restaurant that was just turning out hundreds of plates a day and doing the newest hot thing. I mean, that's fine, if that's what you want to do, but, and at 45 I feel like that ship has definitely sailed for me and moving on to different things.

Jeremy Umansky: 6:42

Yeah, yeah, you know, and I understand that completely. And, and, you know, that's at larger, that's why we decided to take a couple specific approaches, and one of them being that we would change our menu every day. And we had to do numerous things to be able to ensure that we could do that. And one of the big things that we decided on was our relationship with our suppliers, you know, so there's some things just some broad liners, we order from them, where we get, you know, fryer oil, and, you know, big sacks of flour, and that sort of thing. But when it comes to like meat and produce and cheese and and the bulk of the ingredients that we use in serve, we set up a system with our purveyors, where we don't actually really order from them. We say we've got X amount of dollars to spend with you this week, just bring us whatever you have. And it's been a bit of a chef's dream, because you never know what you're going to get. So you never know what you're going to make. You know, your creativity is always first and foremost. And then you know, from a business standpoint, it creates these amazing Win Win partnerships with our suppliers. So you know, a farmer who maybe decided to try their luck on a specific crop and, and it isn't moving at the farmers market or the broader markets, like they can bring it to us for a good price. We went on that they went on moving the product, it gets used up, it gets put out there. It's highly seasonal, it's nutrient dense, it's local. So it's been been a really, really, really fun ride so far. That's such

Chris Spear: 8:18

a innovative way to do it. And you know, you definitely have to be creative to be able to pull that off, but seeing what you put out, I know you can do it. I can't wait, I gotta come check you out sometime there.

Jeremy Umansky: 8:29

Yeah. And, you know, it's it's also important to point out to you, like, You're, you're only as good as the people you're working with, you know, and that's also a realization that rich and I came to, you know, deciding to write Koji alchemy. I felt I couldn't do it by myself rich felt he couldn't do it by himself. And, you know, every, every person, every individual brings such unique things, you know, strengths and weaknesses. And it's important to always, you know, highlight and work together as a team. Well, rich,

Chris Spear: 8:57

what's your background? Because you're not, you haven't been a chef in the restaurant world. So can you talk a little bit about your experience and how you got into food?

Unknown: 9:08

Absolutely. And

Rich Shih: 9:09

I have to say officially, that I am not a chef, I would never claim to be in terms of the traditional sense of someone who has put their heart and soul into understanding a craft. And I feel like, you know, definitely have to respect that. I would say that. I've always been this sort of adventurous and voracious eater since since birth. It's all it's been fueled by pretty much by my mom's cooking, we're Taiwanese. So she would make meals that were you know, she she'd have at least a few dishes plus the soup for dinner every day. And you know, we'd have a savory breakfast of rice porridge with you know, all sorts of pickled things and unctuous things that people wouldn't normally see. And I got to learn that pretty quickly when I, when I started hanging out with my friends, and talking to them about what they were eating and understanding that landscape. So I feel like, you know, I've had this sort of interesting culinary experience as I grew up, because just from two completely different perspectives on two, you know, two sides of two different sides of the world. And it allowed me to build a palette that has a sort of function me well, throughout throughout the years, I mean, I, I'm pretty much not afraid to eat anything, or try anything, or, as you've seen in terms of our interactions, especially early on in Twitter, where we would just be throwing out ideas about like, all sorts of crazy things that, you know, people were either inspired by one person starting with some sort of, you know, idea about putting these things together that nobody really thinks about. And then we just went on the fly and just started creating these awesome ideas and things would just develop and, and blossom in different ways. And that was so cool to me to see that in the beginning, especially when, you know, I think, you know, in terms of cooking, I'd always watched my mom cook and do things that she'd asked me to do, and was completely intrigued by the end product, but didn't really have a full understanding of, like what it took, because I didn't necessarily do it myself. You know, I could do simple things in terms of cooking an egg, or, you know, making some some noodles, but I didn't have a true interest until I got out of college. And I realized how expensive it would be to be a sort of adventurous eater. So then I just sort of sort of started tinkering. started watching PBS, you know, Gil, Julio, trial jackpine, you know, Martin Yang, all the all those people who sort of laid the groundwork. And, you know, I started reading, you know, Cook's illustrated, I just get fundamentals. And through that, I had this sort of idea that I really wanted to understand the people behind the food. So I just started reaching out to people on social media and, and meeting them, and just hanging out in restaurants, you know, volunteering to just, you know, hang out in the kitchen, and do some things and talk about ideas. And I think one of the things that really rang true to me in terms of how welcoming people who are in the hospitality industry are, especially in restaurants, I mean, if you show true interest, they'll teach you anything. And it's such a great thing and such an awesome environment that I wanted to nurture that in, in my own way, from my own experience, and show people that people in, in that line of work, are giving their heart and souls to defeat people and make them smile. And I wanted to be a part of that. And in terms of being, you know, not only my own my own culinary ventures, but to be an advocate of people who are working really hard for not much compensation. And all that they do is they keep working hard. And I want I wanted the world to see that. And I wanted the world to see what sort of we could do together to support each other and to have the understanding. Because it's not just you know, you pay for you pay whatever amount for a meal, it's, it's that somebody really cares to nourish you. And I feel like that's pretty much why I'm on this culinary journey is to build this awareness of, of food and and how delicious it is. But how wonderful these hearts and souls are together and what we can do together.

Chris Spear: 13:49

When did you start our quest? How long has that been now like with the blogging and the Twitter and stuff? I mean, it has to be at least like 10 years, right?

Rich Shih: 13:57

I think it's on the order of 10 years. I don't remember exactly. But sort of the the moment I started was when my cousin got tickets to the first Harvard science and cooking seminar with Ron Adria. And I got, I got to ask one of the the two questions that were asked of him. And I asked, I asked him if, if there was one perfect ingredient that he would never do anything to. And that went through this whole sort of arc of a story of it basically depends on the time, the place, the company, the environment, all these other factors. And it was funny, because I remember chef Andreas was he looked at me after I asked, asked the question, he was like, you know what you've done right? And it was just like this huge like is this big, long arc of a story that was super cool to see him get really into and that that lit the fire. For me in terms of, you know, what was possible. And he was always, you know, he's always been somebody who has done things that, you know, made people think about the very simplistic, like ideas, but doing things that were more possible than what you had thought with very simple concepts, and making something that people believe to be impossible possible. And I think that's a lot of sort of the attitude I take with things, especially with just, you know, it seems like sometimes when I'm creating things that it doesn't make sense at all. And it's built on this, this fact that I have all these experiences that tell me through my flavor and texture brain, that they'll work. And sometimes they don't, but it all comes down to just trying it and being adventurous and, and having fun with it. And I think sometimes when people are cooking, they have this, you know, especially beginners they have, they feel like they have this pressure of being successful, when they first start making one thing from a recipe. And to kind of step back and have this context of, Hey, you know, maybe a chef wrote this recipe and has, you know, 10s of years of experience, and maybe the recipe isn't perfect, but they understand how the recipe works. Whereas when you yourself, have no idea how the recipe works, and you're trying it and then you feel like a failure when you do it the first time. It doesn't make sense. And I think people need to have this context and cooking sometimes is that it's not as simple as following a recipe.

Chris Spear: 16:39

Well, I think sometimes not having the experience like you, you didn't come up in a restaurant setting and all that. So you don't maybe know what rules you can and can't break, right. Like, like me, I went to school to culinary school for savory. So I didn't really learn pastry. So I started like, now I make a lot of desserts because I have to in my business. And one of my best friends is a pastry chef. And he's always stunned by like what I do, because like he was taught that's not what you could do, or should do. But like, I don't really know the rule. So I just make it up. And I think, you know, I think there's something great with that. And just, you know, maybe you set out to make x and you weren't successful in making that. But maybe you made something better or different, or just delicious, you know, and kind of letting go and being able to just create stuff. I mean, you and I have been talking for years. And it really could get weird sometimes. But I love those early Twitter days where you just posted an idea out there, I would just post some dumb shit. It was something I could execute or wanted to. And like you'd be the first one to like, chime in and be like, Oh, I like that. But like, what if you did this, added that. And I really loved that. And I wish you know, there was more of that today, but just kind of building on each other's ideas. And that's something you've continued to do for a while. But rich for you. I've seen an evolution where like now, I think you're kind of known as like the miso Koji guy. But, you know, when you started out, I don't remember seeing that you were kind of like doing everything. So to both of you guys, how did you get into this very specific thing.

Rich Shih: 18:13

For me, specifically, it was this intrigue of a new ingredient to me on its functionality and how multifaceted and full of depth it is. And, you know, using sort of my engineering brain in terms of my professional background, I always break down recipes or processes or methods of cooking into, you know, the basic components of understanding. And with the idea that you could take any ingredient and create sugar, and Mommy, you know, amino acids, as well as you know, esters, through fats. And this understanding that I could develop that from any base that I wanted to was phenomenal to me. I mean, I often talk about how you can use Koji to apply to any ingredient to create its own marinade or its own accentuates its own flavors from its own components. And how beautiful is that? You don't have to, you know, go through this crazy understanding of all these other ingredients to accentuate the actual flavor of the base ingredient, that it does it by itself. It does it with very little work. I mean, in a matter of hours, in some cases or overnight. And it's It was crazy to me that, you know, it could be if there was, you know, enough understanding out there of what the possibilities are. We often talk about how prolific this ingredient will be in terms of applying it as you know, if you think about the context of salt, and what salt does and what what the possibilities are there for all sorts of preparations. I mean, it's an everything any thing you cook. I mean, even in sweet things, this, this is the the other side of what's possible through mommy and creating its own sugars. That's, that has no bounds. And that's sort of the the crux of why I got so intrigued by it. And outside of that, I've always loved making delicious, delicious food in the, I mean, in the most straightforward way possible. And this gives you that tool. Cody is amazing in that way. And, you know, it's only become fairly recent that people are super hyped about it. And we just wanted to announce it to the world. I mean, whenever we had an idea, you know, back 10 years ago, or talking about certain things that were really exciting to us, all we wanted to do was tell other people to do it, because it was so cool. And we wanted people to just do it. And that that was the extension of where I was going. I mean, I still make other, I still make all sorts of other things. But it's just that this ended up being what people responded to really well. And I feel like people needed to know about it, in the same way that people needed to know about, you know, some of the other things that we were playing with early on, it just was a matter of, you know, the context and, and the excitement that continues to grow.

Chris Spear: 21:26

Well, how about you, Jeremy, how do you get into this stuff?

Jeremy Umansky: 21:28

Yeah, for me, I kind of I came at it from a different angle than rich with a similar angle. For me I'm, I'm a very funky centered individual. My early formative years going to culinary school and everything I fell in love with foraging and wild plants and wild mushrooms and eventually led me to be become an amateur mycologist and got a license from the state of Michigan through the Department of Agriculture as a wild mushroom expert. And so this this kind of funghi centric view, and then learning about and meeting a funghi that was so powerful, so intimate, so loving, and did so much work for us, I was just smitten right away. You know, I've been fermenting and making charcuterie and working the the focus of my career has been working with these preserve foods and, and as rich touched on, to be able to have something that that for someone who who cares and preserves and everything, there's two things you need, you need sugar and salt, you know, base sugar spur fermentation and salt keeps things safe and flavorful. And to find an organism that could create base sugars, in a very, very short period of time without having to add anything extra to it, you know, supplemental sugars, or these sorts of things, was just beyond fascinating to me, and you know, deeper studies divulged into Wow, like it was domesticated, it evolved a certain way. And then it was domesticated. And we've kind of, I guess, more or less through domestication bent it to our will, to allow us to reap benefit from it. And on the flip side of that coin, is the organism is plenty happy to do this for us, because all its basic needs are being met. So that whole process of understanding the domestication, which led to its, you know, its its codify uses and various cultures, and then seeing that it is a funny, those were all the things that really, really drew me in at first, it was just fantastic that within hours, literally, I could watch this funghi live its whole life cycle were in the wild and working with these wild mushrooms that you know, we eat and the other ones that I study, their life cycles can be months or years long. Whereas this we go from sport to sport, you know, from starting to end, the you know, the beginning of the next generation in under two days was just absolutely fascinating. And then you have all the delicious byproduct and result of that is just the icing on the cake. So it's just an incredibly captivating, bewitching organism and can do so much for us. I think, you know, there's so many lessons to for the greater context of who we are why we're here where we're going, that you know can be be divulged by this fun guy too and and you know now with modern exploration and starting to look at things off world and starting to rehab things on our world and and Cody has a role in all of these things. And it's just so so incredibly fascinating.

Chris Spear: 24:47

What are some really cool applications. I mean, I do think there's still a large population of people who hear me so when they think of like miso soup and an Asian restaurant, they have no idea beyond that. You know what What me so and even Koji I think most people don't even know what Koji is. I've seen some really cool stuff like making charcuterie with it. So what do you guys think are some really interesting applications for those things?

Jeremy Umansky: 25:12

My mind when I'm asked this question, my mind often wanders to things that are not food, things such as bioremediation using these organisms to help all farmers to break down like, at the end of the season, right, you've had all these plants are you harvested everything you can offer them. But then there's all this material leftover. And you know, some farmers till that back into the soil, or there's burna, there's different things. But to be able to use a funky like Koji or one of its relatives to do that work for you, without us putting additional input in, such as fossil fuels and petrochemical and that sort of thing I find is beyond fascinating. Even things going back to the 1960s and 70s, when it was first discovered that Koji produces these enzymes called lipases, they break down fats into their constituent parts. Well, somebody who was working on developing laundry detergent was like, this can be great for getting the grease out of your your clothes, like you get an oil stain or something on your shirt, or whatever, this actually works to do that. So I think like a lot of those applications, as something that was domesticated with an intent of feeding us showed us these broader possibilities of what it could do, is what has always been most fascinating to me. So, you know, as I said, I kind of turn away from food for some of those things. Because, in my mind, anything that's been done with Koji, and food is just a very, very logical sequence of steps. And just like any any art form, or craft, we always continually build on the work the groundwork done by those before us. So taking these next steps was, in my opinion, inevitable it was going to happen, eventually, it just was a matter of putting the right pieces together and the right times and places for some of these innovations and cuisine to happen. So, you know, there's there's lots of really, really incredible things. I mean, early on, when rich and I were first getting introduced and and acquainted with each other hearing that he was making amino paste. So something like me, so out of cookie dough, I was like, What is going on here? This is crazy. And then he's like, Yeah, I just use it as a salt replacement in in a chocolate chip cookie recipe. And it's so much better. And here's why. Now, because of the creation of these amino acids, and you know, some of these excess free sugars and all the different flavors and aromas that it that it brings to the table, I was just like, wow, this is really, really cool. You know, so So seeing, seeing a lot of Rich's early work was super inspiring,

Rich Shih: 28:02

I think from my perspective, is, as we touched on before, is that you can create these flavors from any base ingredient. The one thing that we often talk about as a touch point is that if you were to make something from the ingredients of soy sauce, you would never be able to achieve it with these microbes. I mean, think about it, soybeans, toasted crack, wheat, salt, and water. If you had these, if you had these ingredients as a chef, it would be very difficult to make something, it would be impossible to make something as delicious as soy sauce.

Unknown: 28:36

If you cook that red, you would end up with like a disgusting Guana of crap.

Rich Shih: 28:42

Well, the other thing is, you know, maybe you'd agent right, and maybe you would eventually come up with soy sauce, right? Because those are the things that sort of happen in these contexts of making things more delicious. In terms of, you know, the idea of, you know, hanging vegetables or aging vegetables or, or just, you know, sun drying fruit, you know, leaving them to, to the elements in a way or, or when you when you sort of when you prepare any meat, you have these these processes to help with accentuating the flavors through this, this landscape of you know, microbes that come along the way naturally to do these things that are amazing to us that help break them down. But because we're, we're just using their, their leveraging of their, you know, basically their digestion to be able to create these flavors. So the context of using Koji is that you are just using this digestion to make things more delicious, more accessible to us nutritionally, and, and more tasty. So when you think of anything that you want to make more delicious, you just add Koji to it. I mean, it's as simple as a lot of the things in terms of the terminology initially, when Jeremy was working without asaka, it was just, Hey, if you're making amazake, which is basically A porridge that's added with with Koji, such that it will create more sugars through the natural breakdown that you could use any any starch substrate or any liquid. So if you just add, you know, one of the things that early on, I had heard from David Chang was that people often describe Koji as smelling like grapefruit. And at one point in time, I was like, well, I've got some grapefruit here. So I'll just take some grapefruit juice and make some amazake. So I just, you know, juice some grapefruits added some Koji, and it became using medium that could power so many things in terms of, you know, making a syrup or, or sorbet, like all of these things that sort of operate together with the understanding that you're using this ingredient to create things that are more delicious than itself. One of the things that I discovered early on is that if you have you know, less than ripe fruits is that you can can just compress some Kodi on it, and let it sit, you know, overnight, pull it out. And you've basically masturbated and, and create created like a more delicious, sugary fruit that was lackluster. And these are the same sorts of things you can do with fruit scraps, or vegetable scraps, to accentuate them such that you can create, you know, sort of a whole usage of things that you couldn't unlock before, because without these enzymes, you can't get these flavors. I mean, as you all know, culinarily with age steaks, I mean, Jeremy has done, you know, full study with the folks and certified angus beef on being able to create, you know, h flavors in the matter in a matter of a very small percentage of the time. That has an equivalency. And if we think about how quickly we can turn these sorts of things around to make things more delicious and nutritious, it's it's mind blowing, what's possible. I mean, more people need to be doing this, and there's just no equivalent right now.

Jeremy Umansky: 32:00

Well, and they and the wonderful thing is to is is, you know, kind of going back to this groundwork, and these foundations of the people before us, like we often get questions that larder like wow, like vegetable charcuterie. Like Where did this come from? This is not you have like, you know, shriveled moldy vegetables and they taste like meat. And it's like well, you know, the the framework for that was laid PVC, like people have been treating vegetables and putting them through the method and technique behind various charcuterie press for a long time already, when we look at in parts of France with Sharon Tate melons, where they would literally let them sit on a shelf to there was mold growing on the outside, before they would then cut them and eat them and use them because some of those molds went in and released, you know, some of these lipases into into, you know, the skin of the fruit and made them more fragrant aromatic and thus they tasted better. And we look in Japan, the making a hoshigaki. You know, you're you're taking this fruit, it definitely cannot be eaten as the way the way it is. But you peel it, you massage it, you hang it, you let it dry, and like you get this product that's absolutely incredible. And, you know, parts of China with bundled bundles of mustard greens that are, you know, tied up, hung and hung in a drafty place for a while to dry out and kind of willed and then they're fermented. And, you know, like these techniques and processes have been out there. So it's just for us. You know, as we were working with Koji, we realized that Koji and a lot asked, but a lot of ways could do some of these things faster, it could do them better, it could give us greater control over these processes, because of how the mold worked. And that was just completely mind blowing. I think the both of us

Chris Spear: 33:41

will have questions about, you know, this is starting to pick up steam. I'm seeing a lot more chefs working with this. What are some safety concerns? And what are you seeing, you know, Jeremy, you have a place what health department I guess issues are there much like charcuterie and things like that I know of chefs who have like backroom hidden places where they're hanging meats, you know, is this something? What are they looking for? Like, has that plan kind of things?

Jeremy Umansky: 34:08

mYeah, you know, it. So it? It's a very broad question. So ADA, it all depends on the jurisdiction. You know, it depends where you are, and what they're going to ask for, and also what they know, and they're aware of, you know, with with any given circumstance. So, myou know, we we always recommend that a safety is first and foremost, like that, with anything you do, right? Like, whether you're a skateboarder or you know, you play tennis or whatever, like be safe, like do what you've got to do to keep your body safe and those around you safe. So, that's, that's the first and foremost thing you know, from there, you know, your local jurisdiction may say, if you're going to do this, you do need Hass up saying just as they do for sushi rice and that sort of thing. You know, the good thing is, is there's a few food safety consultants around The country that are already starting to do work with this and understand it. So it's, it's, you know, it may be a little expensive, but you know, it's definitely worth it to get those things done. Should you, you know, want me to, you know, some of the things too, you know, as much as we've tested, and we've developed and and, you know, working on some of these techniques, you know, there's still this huge kind of linchpin of verifiable scientific study. All right. So this is something that's very, very expensive, and takes a long time, in some cases, multiple years. And that is consistently recreating these things in laboratory conditions, where people can analyze them to the nth degree and say, here's exactly what's happening along the whole way. Even though, you know, things like safety and efficacy have been proved via other means, we don't necessarily understand the data behind it. So these are things that are ongoing, and, you know, I'm hoping one day, there's, there's enough money thrown at this. And, you know, for some of these things, it's, it's going to be literally cost, you know, approaching millions of dollars, for some of these longer term explorations. But, you know, up until then, you know, be open, have good conversations with your local jurisdiction, let them know what you want to do and see what they say about doing it, and what you have to do. Because in different places, they're gonna say different things. In some places, they may say, as long as nobody gets sick, and you're logging in and explaining what you're doing, like we're fine. Other places, say might say, without like this verifiable, you know, scientific study, you can't do anything. So it's just going to, it really is going to depend on where you are and how you do it. But, you know, first and foremost, you know, basic food safety has always got to be in place, like, Don't cross contaminate, wash your hands sterilize things, like do these things that you were trained to do, and that you understand why you have to do them. And, you know, so far, we've heard of virtually no incidents. And you know, also keep in mind, there's a lot, lots of precedent for working with this organism is domesticated roughly 10,000 years ago, and many cultures have been making many foods with it for a long period of time. So there as much as we quote unquote, don't know, there is that much more that we do know about it. And it's safety, and it's used as an ingredient. So, you know, being able to put that out there and communicate that effectively to different jurisdictional officials is really, really important, too.

Chris Spear: 37:36

Yeah, I just know that, you know, it's like, the fermentation thing. And then the foraging thing, and there's a lot of people who, I don't know, I kind of worry sometimes when you know, that, like, the chef is just like an amateur forger, and there's some people who just go out and pick some stuff and put out in their restaurants, like, I don't know, I'm not so sure about that. I mean, I most of the places I eat that I trust the chef and what's going on, but I was just wondering, from a legal standpoint, I wonder what percentage of people are actually talking about what they're doing, as opposed to just kind of doing it?

Jeremy Umansky: 38:07

mYeah. And, you know, the more the use of these ingredients and the creation of the foods on them, you know, catches on and the more people that are doing it, more and more conversations about this are going to happen and and that's, that's another big hurdle that has to happen, too, is the jurisdictional community and the culinary community need to all be on the same page, whereas often, you know, and, and no fault to the inspectors in this stuff themselves, but our current food safety laws are based on science. That is, it's 2021, roughly 100 years old at this point. And we've learned a hell of a lot since then, and done a hell of a lot since then. So we kind of need to reform and catch up and start having these open dialogues. And that's, that's one thing I think that we're kind of severely missing in a lot of cases right now, you know, a big thing that would help out with that would be broad centralization, you know, of what these laws are in place to keep our food safe and how we have to operate you know, and for different sectors of the industry I think that means different things because what applies in a industrial food factory isn't going to apply in a chef driven concept the the approach the source of everything is so different. Even though both are creating food. You know, the things have to be addressed but to be a chef in New York and be a chef in LA and then in Austin and then up up in Madison and have you know one area say it's okay to do something and another state's not and another say well, we're not sure and another say we're not sure do it if there's a problem we'll let you know like, that is what what is one of the biggest hurdles right now? Yeah, I

Chris Spear: 39:53

live in like an area where the Department of Health is super strict, like not even from that standpoint, but for like what I want to do, just pop pops, like if I want to go and cook at someone else's restaurant, they want me to have this like, portable hassle plan, they, they want to see it tied into a conjunction of an event. I'm not allowed to advertise on social media that I'm doing like a pop up at a place because that's like an illegal underground restaurant. Yet if I go like 15 miles down the road and to another county, they don't care, you know, so it's, it's just so hard. And I don't think you even know all the time if you're doing something on the up and up because there's like 40 questions you have to ask. So yeah, I totally see where that is. And I don't think any restaurant in my county would be allowed to do this, if they asked the question if they were allowed.

Jeremy Umansky: 40:41

Yeah, and there is, I think, in an area where us as culinary professionals, and the organizations that represent us to, you know, things like the independent restaurant coalition, the James Beard Foundation, the National Restaurant Association, all the state associations, this needs to be a cohesive conversation amongst all these groups with, you know, the government, and that is one thing that we're not seeing. So, you know, as many issues as we're seeing, and restaurants with no sexism, racism, drug use, like all these seems like, yes, this is as important as all these things that needs to be included, like in these conversations, too. So I hope in the years to come that it is, the problem with it is food safety isn't sexy, you know, where these other things are, and a lot of these other issues, you know, a lot of us as individuals can directly relate to them. Whereas food safety is this kind of glowing thing, this authoritative thing that we all try to do our best to comply with, or, you know, make sure that we're not getting in trouble for something we didn't know about. And it just needs to be at the forefront of the conversation.

Rich Shih: 41:55

I think one of the things that we often bring up in terms of the context is that if there wasn't fermentation, we wouldn't be here today alive. So there's that context of, hey, this was a method that was developed so we could preserve food and, and survive. And now it has this stigma attached to it for, you know, all sorts of reasons. But if we step back and look at the bigger picture and say, Hey, we wouldn't be alive today without fermentation. And then we shouldn't be able to sort of bring it back to the context of what what we do as human beings and and enjoy as human beings.

Jeremy Umansky: 42:39

There's no rebuttal to that. Right? That the response that is, oh, that is right. And there's so many of these foods and so many cultures in so many places in the world that still rely on fermented foods now are the backing behind them is maybe shifted a little bit from the act of preservation and sustenance to pleasure. But that doesn't, you know, cheap in, you know, the food or anything like that. So, you know, the correct course of action is saying like, yes, this is so true. So many people have done it for so long. Let's put some energy and effort into normalizing this. Don't keep it in the backroom don't scapegoated don't villainize the people creating it, and lay the groundwork and, and foundation for people to be able to do this on mass safely, approachable, easy and not feel intimidated by it. Because that's the biggest thing that that is is, you know, messing with this whole situation right now is that the feeling of intimidation of like, oh, some bureaucrats gonna roll in here and shut down my business like that. That is not not the mentality we need to have as culinary professionals. And on the side of the bureaucrats, they should not be in that position where they're like, our way or the highway, you know, like we all need to work together is basically what it comes down to?

Chris Spear: 44:06

Well, I've taken workshops with both you guys, maybe you guys should go on the road and do hands on workshops for Department of Health supervisors and people working in government who are making these regulations. I think that would be a good time. You guys should start some Koji con. geared exclusively for the people making the regulations. I think you're onto something trust.

Rich Shih: 44:28

Absolutely. Yeah. Yeah. I

Jeremy Umansky: 44:30

think you just I think you just hit the nail on the head.

Chris Spear: 44:33

Well, I mean, I do think people are scared to things they don't know. Right. And you know, like, when I reached when I first took your workshop, I really didn't have a good idea. Like I had cooked with me. So I hadn't ever seen Koji. And I think once you get in a room and you you know, have this stuff in your hands, you see it in front of you, you talk to someone who's an expert, just from taking a couple hour long workshops with you guys. I came out having a much better idea of what I was doing and I think if more people could to actually talk to you guys ask questions, have it be interactive? So, I don't know, I was just kind of spitballing here, but maybe that's something something that would work.

Rich Shih: 45:07

Yeah. I mean, I've been thinking about the possibilities of being able to advocate for this sort of work, it's just a matter of, how do we, how do we get enough parties interested in the sort of, you know, national, or global sense to create this, this awareness that allows people to operate as they should, I mean, you know, we, we often go to somebody's house that has, you know, somebody who has this skill set, whether it be a beer maker, a winemaker, or somebody who's, you know, pulling some sauerkraut out of their basement, or has, you know, shot their own animal and hung it. And we leave it to the responsibility of understanding that people know what they're doing, and they're not going to feed you food that's going to make you sick. I mean, I think it comes down to also doing it yourself and getting comfortable. Because, you know, there was a point in time when I saw stuff, I'm gonna get those growing on the top of my ferments. And I was like, what's that? I don't know what it is. I don't know if it's okay. But I think, you know, in the sense of, you know, having read odor from vacation and reached out to Sandra, in those days, or anybody else who is working in that context, and asking a question and saying, hey, like, is this worth eating? Like, Did I do something wrong? And in most cases, it was just like, well, that's part of the process, you didn't monitor as well as you should have or covered it, right? Well, you can just scrape it off and throw it away. And there are these contexts of you know, when you talk about, you know, the process of making your own major shoe, there's, you know, there's all this weird stuff that goes on it. And the recommendation from people who do it traditionally, is just scrape it off, get as much as you can, and then put put in some salty water and make your God job. So there are these contexts of understanding that there are things that are gonna go wrong, and there's a point of recovery, and there's a point of not recovery, and you yourself, in terms of your innate abilities to understand that something is bad, is very strong. I mean, you don't want to eat something that smells like crap, or, or is that you have fear of, like, when you have that situation, it's always safe to just throw it out. Because I mean, it's, it's a better investment of the ingredients not to make yourself sick, and use your innate abilities of Bill, that's gross. I'm not going to eat that. Of course with us, like that's not necessarily con. Sometimes, where we're just like, it's fish sauce, of course, it's going to smell a junk. But just use your senses. And that's what's kept you alive. Up till today. So what are people who who have the sense of tell you that it's not good for you as a kid, right? It's like, Oh, I want to eat some sand. Well, maybe it doesn't taste good. And maybe you shouldn't eat sand.

Jeremy Umansky: 48:08

I think rich on that point, too. Like, we if we look at incidents of foodborne illness and disease caused by by pathogens associated with food. Most of the cases are from cross contamination from people not washing their hands correctly, and from the use of raw ingredient for fresh eating. So for example, you know, in recent years, we've seen scallions and spinach and bagged salad mixes and that sort of thing. We've seen, you know, ground meat that wasn't handled properly and someone didn't cook the burger the proper way. So, you know, when it comes to the realm of these preservatives for fermented foods, we don't see you know, these mass sickeningly, and these mass poisonings, so and I think kind of that has to be part of the conversation. Also.

Chris Spear: 49:01

Have you guys had any epic failures? Like, is there some thing that you guys have been chasing and really want to make work and just can't do it? Or, or were really surprised that something didn't work out? Can you think of anything?

Jeremy Umansky: 49:15

Um, I yeah. So there's always failures along the way. And a lot of them are, you know, early on in your exploration, like rich kind of pointed out like, oh, maybe you didn't contain this fermented or preserve food properly, like you didn't put the, you know, some of them need oxygen. Others don't mean maybe you did the opposite thing in that given situation, you know, and you had to get rid of it. But as you know, an individual's working knowledge with these foods starts to grow and your familiarity with them starts to grow. The concept of failure changes drastically, because it goes from it. Not being successful for its intended use. to being successful for something else, you know, maybe you're making a fermented pickle with Koji, and you didn't realize its enzymatic action would turn that pickle to mush. You know, you look at that on the surface, and yes, that's a failure. Now you've got like a bucket of cucumber puree. But the liquid from that maybe absolutely delicious, and, you know, be something that you could poach fishing, or now you've saved yourself a buttload of time, because you were going to turn those pickles into relish, you know, the, the mold did it for you ahead of time, you don't have to do any, any physical work to get there at that point. So it's more an issue of being able to look at all the possibilities for any given outcome with these foods. And once you start to do that, your rate of success compared to your your rate of failure, you know, it changes dramatically. So, you know, and there's plenty of times, you know, you make something and you're like, Oh, this definitely wasn't as good as I expected it was gonna be or it didn't turn out the way I wanted it to. And just based on that experience, in the data you glean from that, you can then work to fine tune it, you know, and get the desired end result. And along the way, you have all these wonderful, happy accidents.

Chris Spear: 51:23

Yeah, no, definitely. That's kind of what we're touching on earlier is sometimes you just connect the dots in a weird way you didn't intentionally set out to go there. But it just happened to work out.

Jeremy Umansky: 51:34

So I'm interested what what have you you know, you're you're doing these great pop ups and and you know, cooking all this wonderful food? How How has Koji changed what you're doing and and the foods that you're creating? What is what is that done for you.

Chris Spear: 51:50

So I've mostly just been messing around at home. So I haven't started incorporating it into any dinners I've done. Because again, like I touched on with the whole, I feel like I'm a little bit under the microscope here. And people are always looking at what I'm doing. And I didn't want it to be like a way to, I don't know, put my business at risk. But I play a lot at home, I'm still very new to doing it myself. Like I've just done a very tiny bit. And I'm more likely working with other chefs in collaboration on that and letting them take the lead. I love using it. I mean, we have so many great producers, like, you know, I buy White Rose me, so when I want something cool. I just had them on the podcast, and that's going to be coming out soon. And for me, it's, it's almost easier. Like I think you have to figure out where your time is best spent. And for me, it's like a fun project. But it gets to take on so much more time than I think I have to do. But again, you can save a lot of time using Koji. So I've really been interested in like, the fast aging of meats, I think is what's been super helpful to me. So I'm more inclined to do that than to make a huge batch of miso to use for something because again, I think you can buy amazing pieces right now, I keep going through the Noma guide to fermentation and looking at like, what the next project is going to be or looking through your books and thinking, What am I going to tackle? So admittedly, not as much time as I would have liked to it's something I love reading about kind of messing around, but I'm more likely going to take someone else's product. So still still novice on that. And

Jeremy Umansky: 53:26

we'll be using that product from somebody else is like, just as good because whereas before you know you you brought up you know people associate Lisa with me. So Su and how many different issues have you used it in now,

Chris Spear: 53:40

I do a butter cream for a banana cake, which is amazing. And I take the white rose me so I mean, they change their stuff all the time. But they had a Sea Island, red pea miso, and then making that into a butter cream and then going to h Martin getting some like different varieties of bananas and making this really rad banana cake with that. And then spreading that buttercream on there, I think is amazing. And it's like, you know, there's I love supporting local producers, and people making small batch, you know, phenomenal products. So I would rather buy their product, it saves me tons of hours, and I can still then make this amazing product. And I also don't have to deal with any perceived issues with anything I'm doing, you know, safety wise.

Jeremy Umansky: 54:22

Yeah. And and I think that's great. And it just goes to show to you like how many levels of entry they are with working with these foods, you know, just because you're not growing Koji and not starting at the beginning doesn't like cheap in or making the food less interesting or less delicious or anything like you're still you know, going for those umami drivers and like those base sugars and everything that's still so wonderful about what Koji does, and you're using them just as they should be. So like that's, that in itself is fantastic.

Chris Spear: 54:53

Yeah, I think I probably have six different kinds of miso paste in my fridge at home and I'm just always you know, like you're making pancakes. takes us like, oh, could I put like a little teaspoon in my pancakes? And what kind would be best and go from there and see what happens?

Jeremy Umansky: 55:06

Yeah, yeah, completely, completely.

Chris Spear: 55:10

Well, if you guys could shadow anyone for a day, who would it be?

Jeremy Umansky: 55:16

Oh, right, you go first because I'm gonna have to think about this. Do they have to be alive? Um, it's like,

Chris Spear: 55:22

I mean, like, like, who would you? Who do you really love to kind of just get on if you're, if you're going to go do a workshop for a day with someone and kind of pick their brain and follow them around? Who would that be?

Rich Shih: 55:33

So I've spent time with my friend, john Hart, who's a chef and a culinary and, and sort of this historian, I mean, he's, he's, his bank brain is crazy awesome. In terms of what he creates, and what he does, I would, I would love to hang out with him. He's just got such a wealth of knowledge. And I rarely meet somebody who has encyclopedic knowledge about subjects, and is able to apply them practically and also teach people practically, so I'd love to hang out with him. I mean, we have we have ideas on projects to work on together. But he would be at this point in time top on my list just because of what he recently presented at Koji con, which totally blew my mind and melt made me feel sort of inadequate about my understanding of my own heritage. Which, which is, which, you know, is one of those things that you know, you're always sort of driving towards is learning more and being better about understanding where you come from, and to be enlightened in that way was was really indescribable.

Jeremy Umansky: 56:44

Yeah, this is this a tough one. I think currently, like people whose work that I'm enamored with, I think probably the person I'd, I'd want to like shadow and study under the most and probably be misty Norris down in Texas. The food she's creating and how she's creating it, and the team that she has down there, it's just, I like every time I think about better food, I start to salivate. And I'm just so inspired by what she's doing and how she's doing it. I think just to be able to sit down with her pick her brain talk to her. That's that's probably where I'd be.

Chris Spear: 57:21

Yeah, I had like a five minute conversation with her up at Philly chef conference. I think the year that you were there she popped in and out and I was like, yeah, that's someone who I'd love to just pick her brain because she's doing some really interesting stuff. I've never even been to Texas so I have this whole list of places across the state that I want to go to and that's one of them for sure.

Rich Shih: 57:40

Just let me know I have a lot of friends there. I can hook you up with that I visited it's it's a super cool spot you would love it there

Jeremy Umansky: 57:49

it's such a melting pot there too. You know there's there's people from so many different cultures that have found that part of of the United States and starting to call it home so you know the the the wide influence and and you know all these different culinary viewpoints it's it's really fantastic to see how all these things have melded I mean, you know, we often look at our at least people outside the US look at you know, cuisine in America is like one unit unified thing and just as we you know, here ethnocentric Lee look at Oh, Chinese food as just this one thing. And it's not I think Texas is one of the parts of the United States right now that is really, really shining on its own, as its its own, you know, with its own unique identifiable cuisines. So it's it's super exciting. And this stuff that Missy does is just like I said, I always salivate just thinking about it.

Chris Spear: 58:50

Do you guys have any big projects you're working on? either individually or collectively?

Unknown: 58:57

Yes. They're always big project. Yeah, I

Chris Spear: 59:03

think you can talk about

Jeremy Umansky: 59:05

Rachel and I are starting to write more together. So there's that on the horizon? We're not

Chris Spear: 59:11

exciting. Yeah, we're

Jeremy Umansky: 59:12

not sure what it is or what its gonna look like yet, but it's looking like something. So that's, you know, the there there's eventually going to be some sort of follow up to Koji alchemy that we're working on.

Chris Spear: 59:27

didn't give us everything off the bat. Just a little taste.

Jeremy Umansky: 59:31

Yeah, well, you know, it. Here's the thing it cuisine goes as universal as rich said with you know, koji being compared to salt as universal as it is. There's so much more out there too. And it Koji can use in conjunction with so many things. So, that's kind of like the next evolutionary phase and, and there's, there's all these, you know, esoteric and philosophical aspects to it that we didn't we just kind of touch the tip of the iceberg on and Koji alchemy and and you know other methods and techniques that can be used in harmony with it and in conjunction with it in different ways. So, that's a lot of the things that we want to start looking at and, you know, addressing food waste in, you know, various modes of food preservation to make your, your food more delicious and more enjoyable and those sorts of things. So, we really want to kind of hit on hit on some of those and also food as a unifier. You know, we all have these very intense individual cultural identity stamped down to the things that we make, and we want to use that as a conversation, piece for unification with people all over the world. So that's another big thing that that we're going to really be focusing on is how these foods, these makes these ingredients and the techniques behind them. Yes, they give us our own identities and a lot of stand apart, you know, with our individualism, but at the same time, they can be used to bring us together more. And we really, really want to focus on that.

Rich Shih: 1:01:08

I think one of the things that we've always been interested in is being able to educate and help people. And we're, we're, we're working in the sense of being able to create this level of health and education center to move forward, I mean, it's always sort of been on my mind on how we move forward and supporting our communities and the people who are, who are in need. And you know, this is sort of an extension of that is this level of sharing of and community to be able to resource people who who need help and need food and we have our we have a lot of tools to be able to feed people and bring food that is would normally be wasted, thrown out composted, in back into the into the circle of nutrition is huge. And you know, there's a lot of value and in what's possible of resourcing people and empowering people to make their own food and make it delicious Lee, I mean, we have this amazing tool called Koji and fermentation that has fed people since since we've needed to feed ourselves. And to empower people in you know, said, you know, these locations where people refer to them as food deserts, or, you know, just the fact that somebody needs to eat something and can't get access to it. fermentation is a wonderful way to do that, and doesn't require a whole lot of resources. And we want to be able to create an initiative to get there.

Chris Spear: 1:02:40

I think that's amazing, because, you know, so much of the conversation is focused on I think, like, high end dining or innovative restaurants. But I think there are very practical uses for this. Jeremy, I remember you did it, like a matzah ball mizo, or something that, and it kind of came out of just like you had this stuff sitting around in the walk in and you didn't want it to go to waste and like, how do I use this up? Like, I love the idea of doing things like that?

Jeremy Umansky: 1:03:05

Yeah, we actually just used a whole bunch of it the other day, making multiple Sue. It's great. It's like this, this mother of matzah ball that keeps keeps going, you know, who knows? Maybe it'll be it'll be decades old at one point, you know, but yeah, you know, a kind of enlightening people to these these aspects of food production and, and how things it's not so black and white with this is good. And this is bad, like things transform. And there's ways to do it safely. Is is one of the big focuses. So, you know, I think two, there's three big things that I want to be looking to, you know, the pandemic has put a lot of these things on hold. Because, you know, some of these projects we got started and, and there's just been, we're at a stopping point for now. But But dairy applications, coffee, and chocolate, are big focus going forward with some of these, with Koji and some of the techniques behind it. You know, and I think there's something we can only say a little bit about, but rich and I had been working with the commercial appliance maker wearing, and there's some cool product development going on dealing with Koji and other molds. And, you know, hopefully, we're gonna see that, you know, goal is to see that hitting the market at at the end of this year. So, there's something exciting to look forward to we were really we're not allowed to say much more than that at this point. But, you know, it's it's something that's, that's thrilling and exciting.

Chris Spear: 1:04:41

Can't wait to see what that ends up being. Well, what do you guys what have I mean, I was gonna say What happened? We talked about what are you want to kind of share with everyone that maybe we haven't touched on yet?

Rich Shih: 1:04:52

I think one of the important things is, you know, you recognizing early on when I was doing these sort of color linaria Adventures when sort of nobody knew who I was, or what, what in general were doing, and it was just sort of this core crew of people just, you know, hanging out and exchanging ideas on Twitter and just seeing what's possible. You know, what, what sort of inspired you to do this type of work that, you know, we've been doing for, I mean, I checked back as like, almost 11 years now that we started hanging out and, and just bouncing these these ideas that nobody else was, was was doing in in in that sense. I think there are a lot of things that are happening in fine dining that weren't as open, but we were just like, Hey, why don't we just slap some things together and see what's up? Tell us about your, your sort of foray into that and, and, you know, your, I guess your your growth since then, and why, like, what, what inspired you to do that?

Chris Spear: 1:05:56

Yeah, well, I've never been interested in like, quote, unquote, like normal food or mainstream food. Like I'm, I think I'm a creative person, you know, someone who does photography, I paint somewhat I do a lot of writing and just, I always wanted to create something different. Like, I'm not interested in making a lasagna. I mean, yeah, like, I'll make it for my family. But I always want to try to push the boundaries a little bit. I did feel like I was in a creative slump, you know, like 11 years ago or so. And my company had always offered money for continuing ed. And I never used it. And then randomly like, one day I was on the internet. And I found this guy, Dave Arnold and Niels Noren. Were doing a workshop at FCI or, you know, whatever it was called them. And it was like a couple $1,000. I said to my boss, like, I've never used any of this money. Can I go up to New York City and take this class? It was on hydrocolloids, which I was like, Oh, that sounds interesting. And I had to convince my boss, like, how I was going to use this at work. I was working in a retirement community. I'm like, I don't know, like, I'll figure it out. And I feel like back then I still didn't even have this knowledge of what was going on in the world. Because the like, social media was still super new. You know, we're talking 11 years ago, like, I didn't know really what was going on it, you know, like, what was Rene redzepi? Like, people didn't really know. So anyway, I went and took this course. And Dave, just like, it was like mind blowing, and, you know, you know, Dave, but like, way back then he's like, Oh, you know, not only the class, but it's like, well, I learned this technique through ideas and foods, you know, ideas and food. It's like, No, he's like, you got to get follow this blog. Like, they're doing amazing things. It's like, Oh, well, you also need to, you know, check out these people. Do you know them now. So he gave me like this list of all these people. And I didn't even have Twitter at the time. He's like, well, you gotta get on Twitter. So Dave convinced me sign up for Twitter to get an account. He gave me a list of like these people to follow. And it was just like, my eyes had been open to this thing I had never seen heard of, and all of a sudden the world got so smaller. But I found that the the fringe culinary community, I can call it that, right? Like they weren't the mainstream. It wasn't like, I wasn't following like Mario Batali, or people like that it was these people who weren't household names, but doing like really cool, interesting shit in the food world. I was really intrigued by that. And I just went deep down that rabbit hole of like, Who are these people doing this interesting stuff? And more importantly, who are the people who want to talk about it and not just like, put out tweets and then move on who wants to talk for like two hours online, you know, back and forth about these weird food ideas. And you were one of them. And I have no idea how I found you or you found me, but you were one of those people. And I could sit and have breakfast and just like put some random thing like, Oh, I'm eating scrapple What if I, you know, put that in a taco and you'd be like, oh, that would be great. What if you did like a fermented kimchi sauce on it or something? You know, I don't know.

Jeremy Umansky: 1:08:46

I want to eat scrambled tacos now.

Chris Spear: 1:08:48

So I have a scrambled taco that I put on my menu. I'm a big scrapple fan. And I have a like a whole I call it like my super secret scrapple menus. I do scrapple tacos. I do like a brussel sprouts slaw. And it's got some maple syrup in the slaw, and it's got hot sauce. And it's kind of weird. That's kind of my style. But also at a time where I was trying to be super secretive or discreet about who I was on the internet. You know, I think at a time Richard, I met nobody knew who you were right. Like, I felt like you were trying to lay low and have your alter ego. I was working at a job for a big company. And I was afraid that I was gonna get I don't know, like written up or fired like that. I couldn't be out there blogging. And then as I started my own business, I was side hustling and I'm like, like, I can't let anyone find out who I am. So my avatar I don't know if you remember, but I had a raw pig's head because I hid butchered, and I held it up in front of my face.

Jeremy Umansky: 1:09:41

And like fly remember that as

Chris Spear: 1:09:43

yours. That was my thing. And I would go to like Star chefs in New York City and people be like, Oh, you're the guy with the pig's head. You know? So for so long, perfect little bites was this guy who blogged and had a pig's head as his avatar. I think a lot of it also was for me the insecure like not being a real chef, you know, I talked a lot to people on this podcast, especially Chefs Without Restaurants. You know, I was cooking in a retirement community. And I feel like in real life when I would lead off with that people would say, like, what do you do? And I say, Well, I'm a cook. And they'd asked me where and I tell them, they're like, oh, like, they had decided that I wasn't a real chef, because I was cooking in a nursing home, right? So this was a way for me to kind of hide it was like, well, I perfect little bites, I blog about food. And I have a personal chef business. And that's just who I was. But I felt like if people saw my face, they could connect the dots and find out who I really was. And it took me a long time to say, you know, no, actually, I worked at a place we did cool stuff. And it is what it is. But yeah, I felt like we both had alter egos at the time to where like, nobody knew who our faces were. Nobody knew what our real names were. And that was also interesting to me.

Rich Shih: 1:10:52

I've always been about just the adventure and what people do as a community. And I don't, I don't really care too much about people knowing who I am. I feel like it's in the context of being out there in the world that helps with people understanding and then being able to relate to you as a person. I feel like, I don't know, I don't think it's important. I think it's just the work and the community and the sharing of ideas. That is, is what I was focused on and have always been focused on. But I mean, sort of, I guess for people who need a touch point, that's fine. But I still could care less. So. So in terms of some of the most adventurous things you've done that worked out, can you maybe describe, like one or two?

Jeremy Umansky: 1:11:42

Hmm,

Chris Spear: 1:11:44

I don't know. You know, I just talked about, you know, I keep notebooks like chefs, right? So having those ideas and finding breakthroughs and I was just talking to someone about this the other day. Again, you know, big fan of ideas and food, but I really want to make this bulgur wheat pudding that was like a rice pudding. But with Bulger and I just couldn't get it done. Because bolgar takes super long to cook, it would scorch on the bottom, I couldn't get the absorption rate, right. And something I probably tried three or four times and I just you know, it's always in this notebook. And then when they posted about the romanized rice that was like the idea of I think their their post was like the seven minute Rizzo and then it got down to like the three minute Rizzo. But the idea being that, if you soaked rice in salt water with baking soda for 90 minutes, the, you know pregelatinized the starch and you could cook risotto in three minutes. And that was my aha moment where I was like, Yes, if I soak my bolgar in baking soda water for 90 minutes, then it will only take three to five minutes to cook. And then I do it with coconut milk and brown sugar. So you bring coconut milk and brown sugar to a boil, put the bulgur in and it cooks in about three or four minutes and then take it off the heat and then it will continue to soak up and swell in the fridge.

Jeremy Umansky: 1:12:57

But zation is such an underused technique,

Chris Spear: 1:13:01

but just like having those aha moments of connecting the dots, right where it's like I had no idea how to do that. I had an idea of what I wanted to do but being open to seeing that one thing and saying like yes, that's the technique that's going to get me to where I want to go so I have notebooks filled with filled with stuff that right now I don't know how I'm going to execute so like that's one of those things that really worked out that I felt like yeah, I'm glad I was paying attention and was able to put those two together.

Jeremy Umansky: 1:13:29

What what are you most excited about was spring coming.

Unknown: 1:13:32

Alright,

Jeremy Umansky: 1:13:33

here it happened yesterday. Yeah, finally here.

Chris Spear: 1:13:36

Yesterday I started the garden I mean getting out there and you know telling that out pulling back the we put cardboard on it so we didn't get a ton of weeds and I'm just kind of like I went to the touch plant farm yesterday and got some soil and putting some new stuff down and turning that and today I'm starting my seeds. So when we're done today I'm going to start putting stuff in I'm a little behind I should have started earlier but we have time because it's Mother's Day before I want to put anything in the ground anyway. So starting to grow some stuff I've like really awesome. I have a lot of seeds from row seven, which I like like I love their squash and their cucumbers and their beets. And then I have the Bradford watermelons which are my favorite. There'll be a little later in the season. And then last year they released an okra like an heirloom okra, so I've never grown okra before and I don't know how it's going to go. So you know I'm starting some really cool stuff like that. And I guess that's what I'm

Jeremy Umansky: 1:14:28

excited for ochre goes like a weed, you'll you'll you're not gonna be able to keep up with the pods.

Chris Spear: 1:14:33

My kids like okra and they love pickled okra, my kids you know, again, pickling is like the one I don't know who doesn't like pickles. My kids would eat pickled anything every night like even quick pickles like they won't eat steamed or even a roasted cauliflower but if I just do like a curry brine and pickle that like four hours later and just put it out on the table, they'll eat that so we just you know do a lot of quick pickles even in the house.

Jeremy Umansky: 1:15:00

That's fantastic.

Rich Shih: 1:15:02

Tell us more about your pimento your love of amento cheese and your adventures in that.

Chris Spear: 1:15:07

I love pimento cheese. I don't know, I'm from the Boston area, right. And that's not like a northern thing. It was always like, everyone's also want to buy this tub of stuff. And it was probably from that, you know, company who is, you know, racist or whatever. And we did away with them this past year. But yeah, you know, again, I'm trying to find my style, and I'm still having trouble with that. Like, as a New Englander, you know, I'm a white guy who grew up in the Boston area, my ancestors came over from England, literally on the Mayflower, but like, you know, I grew up in the 80s, we had a lot of casseroles and stuff. So what's my cooking style, you know, and everyone, like they have these cultures and cuisines. And there's, you know, discussions about their heritage is like, well, I don't know, like, What am I supposed to do make baked beans and like fried scrod all the time. Like, that's not interesting. But now living in the more of the South, I don't still consider like Maryland, the South, but we're below the Mason Dixon line. You know, finding things like pimento cheese, my wife's from Virginia. Her her parents are as well. Yeah. So that's one of the things I really fell in love with. And I love going down to Charleston, and I've had a number of times, so yeah, I play with pimento cheese all the time. My favorite is smoked gouda. And then I replaced the pimentos with like, the hot hoagie spread. So he had just like, put a lot of a ton of that in there. And it actually was in the book knives in ink that I was in, they took that recipe. So I've been in one book, I don't have my own book, but I did have a four page spread in this book, because I've tattoos and they let me put a, they let me put a recipe there, which was pretty cool. That's awesome. Then pimento cheese is such a joy. And me being a northern Jewish boy.

Jeremy Umansky: 1:16:43

pimento cheese was not a part of my upbringing whatsoever. Like, even some of like the cheese spreads that you find throughout the Midwest and stuff. You know, like cheese balls, not like that wasn't something we had growing up. And thankfully, Allie and I, our business partner, Kenny Scott is from Virginia, from Virginia Beach and pimento cheese is all over the larger menu. It's it's, it's everywhere. It's fantastic.

Chris Spear: 1:17:10

And I love you know, my cooking is not that highbrow like I've said I'm not really interested in fine dining, like I like going out and eating it. But there's something about things like that that are like homey to me, like when I throw dinner parties for customers. It's not this very formal. I mean, yes, a lot of them have white tablecloths and fine china, but I, you know, I think having something like that out on the table as a communal thing to share. Like that's more my style than doing this very intricate plated entree that has like 17 components.

Unknown: 1:17:41

Agree? Yeah,

Rich Shih: 1:17:43

I remember once when I had a chef taste one of those yogurt, miso hot sauces that I made. And they said that I don't want you to be offended. But this tastes like the best pimento cheese I've ever had. And I was like, I'm not offended at all. So maybe that's that's one thing you could do is sort of hybridize some some Koji applications and into your pimento cheese adventures.

Chris Spear: 1:18:07

I love that. I'm gonna have to start playing around with that. You know, it's the same with like, the scrapple. Like, it's, you know, some people think it's gross, but we have so many people around here love it. And I make this scrapple Depp I don't know if you've ever seen the scrambled it, but yeah,

Rich Shih: 1:18:19

yeah, it's like, really my try.

Chris Spear: 1:18:22

It's like Maryland crab dip. But with scrapple instead of crab. So like, I just literally took a crab dip recipe and it's like, pans here scrapple and pureed up with like cream cheese and cheddar cheese and hot sauce and Old Bay and broil it and it's like, it's delicious. And you're, you know, you either get it and you're down or you're totally offended by that and I'm okay with that. It's,

Rich Shih: 1:18:44

it sounds super delicious. And I definitely want to make it. Um, some people on your show may not know what scrapple is. Can you talk a little bit about what that is? Yeah, it's,

Chris Spear: 1:18:53

you know, kind of like hot dogs that's like whatever's left over but it's the scraps it's it's organ meat. It has, you know, it usually has livers, I can have hearts. It can have kidneys. It's cooked down, like a cornmeal mush. And then set in loaf pans and then you just slice it and saute it. But some people don't even put organ meat. I remember I was at ko Shawn in Philly. And one of the I guess the team from the meat hook in Brooklyn were there and I talked to them and they just like cook pork shoulder and do like pork shoulder and cornmeal. And I was like you don't put any ofall in there and they were surprised that I suggested that like no, we just cooked down you know pork. So you know it has so many different regional variations. Oh yeah, I

Jeremy Umansky: 1:19:39

love I love whenever I'm in the Carolinas getting a liver mush biscuit.

Chris Spear: 1:19:44

And liver mush is a little too livery for me like it's a little sloppier and spreads a little more and it's very heavy on the liver. That's, I'll eat it but that's not my favorite variation of it.

Jeremy Umansky: 1:19:55

Yeah, I grew up on chopped liver here. So I'm all about the liver mush.

Chris Spear: 1:19:59

I love chopped Ever though like I am in I'm always chasing like making a good chopped liver like I I make it I think I do okay at it but I still haven't nailed it where I'm like this is the best chopped liver.

Jeremy Umansky: 1:20:13

Yeah, it's it's a it's an interesting food that's for sure. Well,

Chris Spear: 1:20:17

I I've run to kosher kitchens. I don't know if you guys knew this like I've, I've had some experience in the kosher cooking world. So I did cut my teeth there for for a number of years. And I spent about five years running like full on large scale kosher kitchens.

Jeremy Umansky: 1:20:32

Yeah, that's a that's interesting work, isn't it?

Chris Spear: 1:20:35

It's a whole thing. I was in Seattle, and it was a retirement community. I went in and interviewed for a job. And I didn't even realize I did the whole interview. And then I was done. And the guy was like, so this is a kosher kitchen. Do you know what that means? I'm like, I have some idea. And he's like, do you have any experience? I'm like, No, he's like, Well, you know, and he offered me the job is like the the sous chef kind of running the day to day operations of the three kitchens there. And that started my education. It was a good time. Yeah,

Jeremy Umansky: 1:21:02

yeah. It's, it's, it's different. But it just goes to show you know, any any cuisine is is got its, its interesting aspects. So yeah.

Chris Spear: 1:21:11

So I always like to ask if you guys were a flavor, what would what would it be?

Jeremy Umansky: 1:21:16

I that's a easy one for me. Sweet cherries.

Chris Spear: 1:21:21

Right on. Right. Yeah.

Rich Shih: 1:21:24

So the traditional The, the, the story of Willy Wonka and the everlasting gobstopper the transformation that would be my flavor.

Jeremy Umansky: 1:21:36

Well, that's rich. That's,

Chris Spear: 1:21:38

that's an interesting answer there. Do you guys have any parting words or anything you want to leave us with before we get out of here

Jeremy Umansky: 1:21:45

today? Have fun cooking and be safe.

Rich Shih: 1:21:50

I don't know. Just Just keep trying different things and connecting with people who are making awesome stuff.

Chris Spear: 1:21:57

While I love that good words, and I hope to se you guys relatively soon, mayb this year. If things loosen u and we start to get back t normal ash. That would be great That would be excellent Speaking of which, ge vaccinated and be safe out ther with your neighbors. Well, to all our listeners, thanks. This has been the Chefs Without Restaurants podcast, a reminder that I've recently launched my Patreon and if you love the show and want to support the work, you can go to patreon.com/ChefsWithoutRestaurants. Thanks so much for listening and have a great week.