Transcript
Chris Spear
Welcome everyone. This is Chris with the Chefs Without Restaurants podcast. Today I have Mike Tholis. Mike was a restaurant chef in Washington DC for five years, and also worked as a cook and butcher. He recently decided to leave restaurants, and start a small market farm here in Frederick, Maryland. Welcome to the show Mike. How are you?
Mike Tholis
I'm great. Thanks for having me. This is cool.
Chris Spear
Thanks for coming on. I really wanted to talk to you about the farm and how it's going, but also the transition from being a cook and a chef to working on a farm. So I guess that's probably is a great place to start. Tell me a little bit about your background cooking and what you were doing.
Mike Tholis
Yeah, so I was, you know, I was the type of cook that was all in on everything I started when I was 20. And, you know, just work 6070 hours a week as you do and just wanted to be the best the best person in the room, best person in the town and I moved to DC and wanted to be, you know, a chef at one of the best restaurants So I did that and it Was all consuming and all great. But it really takes over your entire life. And I really was starting to burn out in a big way on just the whole restaurant scene and I, you know, tip I'm kind of one of the typical, like, I got chewed up and spit out by the restaurant industry, just as kind of happens, it takes time and it just beats you up. And yeah, so I think when I left my, my main job that I had in DC, as Chef de Cuisine and and I was kind of in between, and I was at a restaurant that I was I liked, but I wasn't in love with and then the government shutdown happens. You know, whatever year that was 2018 when it was like three months or a month and a half of No, you know, the government employees and work and restaurant business dropped 40% overnight, and stay down. And then, you know, it was like, Man, this is a really fragile, kind of existence. Like, you know, we're talking about laying people off For like, we don't know how we're gonna how long we can do like we're hoping for the government's reopen obviously everybody was but we have numbers to make and we got people to make sure that we can keep in business. And so we that was just like a real eye opener for me just to like, I don't know if I'm comfortable with such a precarious situation like being my livelihood and I kind of started branching out I always kept the garden. And so I was like, you know, maybe I can YouTube this and see if I can learn about farming because I had always been going to farms and local was like how I source for my restaurants and so I really wanted to kind of go down I rather I was jealous of the farmers lifestyle and so that I you know, in a nutshell is kind of how it was. And right now I'm pretty stoked on my decision because it's been a kind of a crazy year for restaurants and farming is kind of had a whole revolution in and of itself this year. So I'm you know Just kind of rolling with it right now.
Chris Spear
Did you go all in all at once? Like, did you just stop working and start planting, like right away? Or was there a transition where you were trying to figure out what you're gonna do?
Mike Tholis
That's a good question. So I got my land settled out in like the end of August, two years ago now. And so I basically, was working as a chef de cuisine, but the restaurant was kind of casual and I was working like, you know, to me, it felt like part time 45 or 50 hours a week. And on my days off, was when I would sort out the farm. So I go and I'd like till the ground or I'd cover it with like flowers start to kind of kill off some weeds and start there. And then over the winter, on my days off, I would go up and like build out my pack shed and infrastructure in there. Yeah. So and then end of February. I called it with restaurants and started and I just went all in at that point. So I wasn't Planting anything the first half a year, just like prepping ground and getting ready to go. And that March is when I really, I quit restaurants I said, I can't do anything like, halfway I have to go all the way. So it has to be financially like I needed to work or I just will get lazy and we'll do it. So I just went all the way in and you know, haven't haven't really looked back. I had to work in restaurants this past year. First first season was good, but can always be better. So this past winter, I worked in a restaurant in DC just to pay the bills. And then this year I moved to Frederick and have been kind of I mean, it's been great this year. Um, kind of a social distance there anyway. COVID isn't really affecting me in that personal life kind of situation. And for business. It's been a really interesting time.
Chris Spear
So who is your ideal customer? Has that changed over time? I mean, are you marketing towards restaurants, consumers at home or a bit of both? And is any of that change due to COVID
Unknown Speaker
Yeah, so Cove is been a really interesting time in the small farming scene, because you know kind of farming had its like ways that you did it. Like even in the small market farm scene where like you either sold exclusively to restaurants exclusively, exclusively at farmer's markets or some kind of combination of both or CSA. I never loved the CSA model. I have a hard time selling something to people that they're locked into, like a gym membership. I don't feel honest doing that. I know it's a great way for farmers to make money and you know, to get the money up front and all that I just, if you don't like it, you don't get a choice. If you go on vacation, you lose your share. Like I just can't sit there and look somebody in the face and say, Yeah, well, you know, that's the commitment. You got to deal with it but a lot, so I was never really on board with that. So last year, I spent most of my time and energy in my restaurant sales and farmers markets. I did To delivery days to restaurants and I did two farmers markets a week and I was, you know, it was busy. It was a lot of sales time and not a lot of ground work time. So I had kind of revamped and I was going to do a CSA this year, just a little bit just to get and get the season started. And then I was going to kind of do the same thing. And then COVID happened. Error started, I guess, or whatever you want to say. And I called my chef that was like my main customer last year with ramps because it was like, March 15. I go on a ski trip. And I came back and that weekend was the first Yeah, you know, those ramps are just getting to be like small size ramps that you can, you know, sell and do stuff with. I texted him. I called him an answer. I texted him and you like, basically told me to never talk to him again. Because, you know, whatever, because his problems were more important than my problems and I just moved in Frederick. I had no money. It was the end of the winter and honestly, I'm just trying to keep my lights on like, I don't know what to do. So I had to sit down and like, basically rework everything overnight. And kind of settled on the idea is like if this thing is going to be real, which obviously now looking back it obviously was going to be, I can't count on farmers markets and I definitely can't count on restaurants. So sorry, going back to the CSA model that I don't like I, I opened my CSA more is more or less like an online store. So as soon as a member pays and gets a gift card to my online store ahead of time, and then they use that gift card to just purchase each item each week how they want it. So they don't like okra, for example, which is a big one and people don't like they don't have to have it. Or if they go on vacation. They don't have to lose their money so they can get whatever they want, every week or nothing or whatever. So it really it's basically just pay ahead of time and then shop online with me. Which has been really great. It's been it's been a lot Have fun to kind of work out the kinks of and then I the way it is now I go and like I did your as I do a no contact delivery, where I just leave the bag on the porch and send a text and say, hey, it's here, I'm back in the car, like Thanks a lot, like hope you enjoy everything. And that way you get your groceries basically delivered to your house and then in a safe manner. So in today's age, that's kind of like, I think what people need or what people want, I don't know. That's what I would want. If I went to the grocery
Chris Spear
store, I got a bag of produce from you. And that was really awesome. You sent me a text and said produce is here. It's on your doorstep. You know, just open the door and there it is. And yeah, the way I love that idea of the gift card. I've never heard of anyone doing that. Are there other farms that are doing that that you know of? Because I think the biggest thing is the selection. You know, people joke all the time. Like I was just telling you before we got on here that I just got some produce and it was cold Robbie, and that seems to be the thing people always joke about like my friends who aren't chefs, I say My CSA came today and I got five pounds of coal Robbie, what do I do with that stuff? And most people don't even want to use it. I mean, I love it. But that idea that you're always giving the consumer something that they don't necessarily want or know how to use.
Unknown Speaker
Yeah, so I got the idea of it's just like a farm that I listened to a podcast that I was into, it's called the no till Market Garden podcast and really fantastic. They're in Kentucky. And they, they got the idea of a market card where basically the CSA was is tough because not only for that, but like Like you said, like if you get five pounds of karate and half your other crops, have too much bug damage to sell or whatever, then you know, you're looking at five pounds of cool Robbie and like a pound or two lettuce and like that's what's in your CSA share. And you have to constantly stagger this, like perfect basket each week and it takes a whole lot of planning and then people get tired and they don't want fennel, two weeks in a row. They want to find out one week and then like, you know, whatever the next week, so you kind of have to have this constantly revolving produce coming up. So this way, this allows people to, like try a little bit of something if they want, but if they don't want to, or they know, they don't like it, it's not a big deal. And then it's been really great. People have been really excited about it. And I'm happy to do it. And it's just, yeah, I don't know, I could see the poll as a farmer to want to do the full CSA model where it's just like, I'm gonna grow this and then you guys are just gonna take it. But to me that's too producer friendly, and not consumer friendly enough. And in this day and age, like I'm trying to pull customers from, like, you know, yes, organic market, like I'm trying to pull people from like, organic sections of grocery stores, that's my customer, not necessarily the, you know, I shop at giant and I want whatever, like, I want somebody who's conscious, but I don't, but I want them to, I want it to be easy for them to like, I don't want them to be like, have to go out on too far or limb to order from me. It's like online shopping, which we can all do these days. And it's grocery shopping. kind of combined.
Chris Spear
And I guess the home customer is maybe a little less adventurous than say chefs are, you know, the kind of things that I would want to CSA or would know how to use are probably not the things that are going to sell if you're pushing towards a home market, I'm assuming right now, you know, like, everyone wants tomatoes, everyone's lettuces, everyone wants that kind of stuff, right? Maybe not the final. I mean, I would gladly take a bunch of fennel every week. But um, I know a lot of people who wouldn't use it once.
Unknown Speaker
Yeah, nice thing.
Unknown Speaker
And it's, and it's hard for me and it's been really humbling for me, honestly. Because as a chef, I'm like, all these ingredients are awesome all the time. I want them in my life. And then you realize that people don't know about these things and don't, you know, really care to not that they don't care to you. But if they're outside of the comfort zone, and you're cooking at home, they're not here. It's not like us, like in a restaurant or in your business trying to like push yourself a little bit or anything like that, like, people have lives and they're busy and they just want their groceries and then they have the recipe that they like, and they're gonna produce it and like all that and so, but then again, I'm just grow the fennel and as you grow the kohlrabi and you know, I don't know if a client's weird or not, but people do they have their chances to try it. And if they like it then great and if not, like, you don't know where so I'd say yes, the average consumer is a little bit less adventurous. But it's also great because it's a much more forgiving market as well. So like, if I run out of something, it's not the end of the world, like the chef doesn't have to scramble to like, put the like put the dish together with something else. Like it's like, Okay, oh, no worries, like cherry tomatoes, or come next week or whatever it is like now I'm not really gonna trade tomatoes, but it might be like scallions or carrots or something that I put too many bunches on the website. And it's all that crazy. And I'm like, I have like five months is short and the people are usually like that's not very good, which is kind of nice for for my anxiety levels. So
Chris Spear
have you grown specific things for restaurants, I get a chef asks For something, have you grown that? Or is that something you're thinking about doing? And I know the restaurant scene is really weird right now. But ideally, is there a scenario where you'd start custom growing for restaurants because they want red beets or yellow beets or something like that?
Unknown Speaker
Honestly, I don't know that I want to go back to mainly restaurant sales. I don't like, you know, farming is a lot of work in growing a lot of work. And a couple things like I'm on super small acreage, I grow on less than I just just a bit more than a half an acre total. So I can't afford to like waste. Like a lot of chefs like to say, I want celeriac, and I'm like, okay, it's 120 days to maturity, which means it's put it in in May and it's ready in October. And so that's kind of the equivalent of like, you have a two top that's sitting in a four top for the entire night. Right? So like you don't have you're not turning that high revenue table over for the whole year or the whole night and then so you You're just wasting money on a $60 ticket or wasting time and seeds. Whereas, like, for me, it's just you know, it's it's time and area that the procraft takes. That is my revenue share. So I try to I try to keep it I try to keep it interesting I try to do shift oriented vegetables a little bit, but for the most part I'd rather deal with people and at home for that reason for Plus, I can grow less and you know it retail groceries cost more money. Chefs want to pay $4 a pound for for bush beans, which are a massive amount of work and I'm like, I can't make this happen. This is a ton of work. I don't have the time for this. And for those a pound is peanuts for for this. Like, I basically take farmers market prices and sell everything at that and it's been great for me. I'm not like, I'm not rolling in money, but I'm working hard and being compensated for it, which is I think all we can ask for
Chris Spear
and so does that mean the cost have been pretty good about pricing because I do know obviously stuff that's you know of your quality and coming from local farms does cost more than say commodity carrots at a grocery store. So Have there been comments or discussions about cost and pricing with customers or are people kind of used to it at this point? Oh, my customers
Unknown Speaker
tend to not care as much I have had one run in with a customer I was so I also buy produce from and produce and like groceries, kind of items like flour and eggs from the Amish in Pennsylvania. Kind of supplement the website and I you know, I tell everybody that this is theirs and whatever their methods are different than mine and blah, blah. But they I was buying rhubarb because everybody wants to rhubarb in April. rhubarb is expensive. And to make it worth my time, I have to mark it up. And then my customer, one customer, like complained about it and he was measuring each box and said he was like half an ounce short on this bunch and I'm like, you'll get one Point $2 million house and you're hitting me about a half an ounce that's worth like 50 cents. And so like honestly, I don't really have the time for this like, honestly but you know so so now for the most part No, my customers don't care that much that food in DC is expensive in general. like half a gallon of milk that I buy at the grocery store is almost twice the price in DC as it is in Frederick now. Which is it's just insane. So I think it's stuff is expensive and people think it is cheap sometimes. So like, I don't know, I it's for me just the customer dictates the market and I I'm not trying to overpriced anything. I just want to make it fair.
Chris Spear
So are you you're in Frederick and you live in Frederick, right?
Unknown Speaker
Yeah, I live in downtown Frederick.
Chris Spear
Now you're selling into DC you're like, what's your range of how far you're selling your product.
Unknown Speaker
So I kind of I try to keep it. I love to sell more into Frederick I struggle with the freidrich market this point but it's getting better. But then yeah generally speaking I target all of Washington DC and Arlington Alexandria and then like the fez the spring rockville area was like a pretty broad range and then yeah, I do to delivery route so we, they send you orders and I just go to their house and drop it off. But yeah, as long as you're not too far east or west and not farther south and like I go all the way down to like Mount Vernon. Not farther south than that, and I'll probably sell your house like I have a customer who is a CSA member in derwood. I one in rockville and one in two silver spring. I have a customer who I love. She's a great customer and in Hyattsville which is pushing it for me for like, out of the way on the east side, but you know, she's been a great customer, so I can't I can't fault it. I'm just gonna take it where it is right now.
Chris Spear
So how are you finding those people? How are how are they finding you? I mean, DC, you'd think you'd be able to get so much great stuff locally. So how are they finding you out in Frederick? Is it from existing relationships? Because you used to work in DC or just, you're good at marketing people know you have the best stuff. How's that working?
Unknown Speaker
Yeah, good question. Ah, I don't think I'm very good at marketing. That's been probably the biggest hurdle this year is like how do I not stand somewhere or walk into a restaurant or approach somebody with a full fire and say, Hey, this is what I do. Like you come to my website. So every month or month and a half, I send out a survey to my customers just to see like, what they're feeling and kind of a couple questions about how like how they got to know me, and the main answer is I as an Instagram ad, so I pay a little bit for the promoted posts, and you can target a specific age group gender, interests, whatever on Instagram and and range from whatever address you want to put in. And they, and you just it goes to their Instagram, it comes up. And so I got a lot of customers that way. I have a few really great customers who are really much better at social media than I am. And they're constantly reposting and tweeting things and whatever is called talking about food on the internet. And that is really nice. And, I mean, that's pretty much the name of it. I have a couple customers that I knew from restaurants, and they're great. I love to see them. I talked to them to their windows and like, you know, we catch up a little bit but yeah, mostly it's people who found out about me through their neighbors or some people found me just like googling delivery CSA is mostly used to answer as
Chris Spear
sounds like we have a lot of parallels with our business. You know, I'm based in Frederick here and almost most of my business is Northern Virginia, D all that I mean, I think some of its market economics. But the same thing I was very successful. I mean, you take a photo of addition post on Instagram and even Pay to run some ads. And then once you get that following you know now, I'm not spending really anything marketing wise for money because I just have that client base who now they're just telling their friends they're posting on Facebook, and it's really nice when you don't have to pay for marketing as much.
Unknown Speaker
Yeah, I'm sure their friends might have been at the dinner that you were doing now they're hosting a party. Yeah, that's awesome. Yeah, I have. That's kind of a main thing. It's just hard these days, because people aren't having those parties as much for really much at all. And, you know, with groceries is I think it's a different kind of thing. Like, especially if you're having people over like, where'd you get that zucchini isn't like the conversation you're having. So I kind of I do like a referral program within my customers like, hey, if the customer if I get a new customer and they drop your name, like I'll give you a $10 coupon or whatever, just to kind of like, incentivize people to like, call their friends like, Hey, I got this great stuff from this great farm like you should check it out. And I've gotten a few customers that way. But yeah, it's been a whole it's been a really interesting study in Marketing this year because it's just a whole new world for me. Last year, the farmer's market does all the marketing. So you just go and you pay for the stand and like the space and you just go and you set up and people come by and they buy your stuff and they go home. What do
Chris Spear
you think of farmers markets? I know right now, some are open, some are not. Do you think they're worth the time? Or is there a better way to market your product?
Unknown Speaker
So I don't know. So I love my farmers market and I'd love to go back. But I'm a super small operation. And I can do both. by you. It would be really a challenge for me to do my delivery model and do the farmers market. And I do love the farmers market. I love that face to face or you know, in the past I did. But this year I had to scrap it mostly just because I think it's irresponsible for me to offer a no contact safe delivery to my customers and then stand face to face with 50 strangers every week that doesn't it doesn't add up to me is like a safe kind of equation. So I haven't been doing it I they're very sweet they're and they're invited back next year and I want to go back next year if world stuffs ending or whatever but but again, I don't know it's it's also really nice Farmers Market takes 10 hours your time you lose a lot of product because you never sell out you have like 20 to 30% left like the pick through stuff sitting on a table. And it's just a lot of work so I don't know. And plus if it rains it's no good. If it's hot, it's no good if it's windy is no good. Like there's a lot of variables where like, you know, it's kind of sad to say but the online world is like just more efficient. And as much as I love the face to face and sadly in the open market of it all like it's just way more efficient what I'm doing right now. So hopefully next year I can get into it again. But you know, if not, it will be for a reason because it's more profitable or more economic or more fun to do something different.
Chris Spear
I've said the same. It's like Doing events at or you know, like having a table at an event. You know, all these people have Oh, we're having a such and such festival Do you want to come and have your food there and it's never done anything for me for business even if I'm given the option to sell something like the time commitment to stand at a table and sell your pimento cheese and write business cards, it's just like I could have saved that money and put it into a marketing budget done so much more at home. I found I never get leads out of that kind of thing. Yeah, not worth the time.
Unknown Speaker
Yeah, so and that's the thing i don't i don't know farmer's markets are cool. I love this. One of the main reasons I wanted to get into farming is because I love farmers market so much and I love being there and the environment and all that stuff. But it's it's just a tough, it's just a lot of time like it's just packing all that stuff takes a lot of time and then loading the car getting down and unloading the car setting up. You know tap dancing for the customers and then breaking down, loading the car back up getting back to the farm, unloading the car. Like attendance of our day, and could just be a rainy crappy day. So you so the same amount of work. So, I don't know. Now it's like every once in a while I have a slow day, I only have like 25 stops on my route and it'd be like, Alright, I guess I just have a lighter day today. And I'll just take it for what it is and move forward. But honestly, I don't want too many of those days. But it's pretty nice to be able to be like, it's just less work to not be as busy sometimes. So I can just kind of take an early Yuning
Chris Spear
so you're always season a season ahead or two sometimes I guess. What are you doing right now? Like what's going in the ground? What are you thinking about for late summer fall? Like what's the growing looking like for you right now?
Unknown Speaker
Right now? It's crazy. It's right. So this is like the lynchpin moment. It's like, you know, you think tank or like, Okay, well, we can plan all this stuff. But if you don't have stuff in like, rooting vegetables in the ground by like the end of next week, here, maybe The week after, they might not size up by November because as this day like kind of terior diminishes each day. The plants grow slower and slower and slower. So right now I mean tomatoes are just coming on the full swing. For me I don't have a tunnel and we had two super late frost in Frederick like may 15 and 14th and 15th I think it was like 28 degrees at night, both nights so I didn't have my tomatoes in the ground actually I saw that that was coming and I just waited I don't have the equipment to like keep it warm while I'm not there. And so my tomatoes my cherry tomatoes are just now it's what is it the last day of July almost. And they're just now in full swing, which is you know, three weeks late for me. But yeah, now it's like I'm seeing a bunch of fall crops so like carrots and radishes and I have a greenhouse full of kale and scallions and Swiss chard and beets in lettuce and that sort of thing. I'll go in the ground in a couple of weeks. But yeah, for the most part it's it's those sorts of things back to the salad he kind of like leafy, Rudy kind of vegetables and that's that's kind of my bread and butter anyway I really like the kind of high turnover quick kind of things like spinach and that sort of stuff. So that to me is a lot of fun to grow. It's a lot of fun to eat and you know, it's nice, I love tomatoes, growing and shishito peppers those are coming in in full force now and eggplants are about to start and I love all of it honestly, but I just right now it's like summer veggies full on and it's like gotta fly for fall or you're screwed. Now through like September 1, it's like the real like, churn and burn kind of like yeah, you're planting and harvesting big time every day.
Chris Spear
And what is winter bring for you? What do you do all winter long.
Unknown Speaker
So this past winter was my first winter and I worked as a butcher at a restaurant, which I hope to never do again. But you know, it was nice I had I got the opportunity to train a lot of people who didn't know anything or very little just for eager to learn. So that was really nice. But I just I've learned that I'm too burnt from the restaurants to do it again. So this year I've been saving scraping pennies and my goal is to have you know, enough money to pay my rent, which downtown Frederick is not DC but it's not free either. So pay my rent for the three and a half months. And also to basically just like kind of cruise around I have a my delivery van is also like my car so I'm basically just going to vancamp for as long as I can afford to visit some folks like my brothers down in Louisiana. Friends out in Wyoming. I want to hit like Southern California to like, get some summer in without a working. But yeah, so that's kind of my plan is mine. hopelessly romantic. I'm going to live in my van and have a great time plan but who knows how it's gonna go?
Chris Spear
No big side hustle for you and just take take a little time off.
Unknown Speaker
Now that's my whole point is like I would rather work super hard for nine months in this chill super hard for two months. Then, when I got my last restaurant chef job I was like the chef have sit me down because yeah, so it's like, this is the benefits and babalons two weeks vacation this year, Bobo and I'm like, I just been off for like a month and a half, like kind of recuperating from my last restaurant job. And I was just like, I just slept for two weeks, like how two weeks out of 52 is nothing like I can't I gotta find a better situation than working all the damn time. So this was kind of my thing like, okay, I can hustle for nine months and have solid time off. And because that's where I really thrive. I don't, I'm too routine oriented to like, enjoy weekends or my one day off or whatever. So I enjoy it when Have them but I'd like to just like stop doing things for a little bit. But we'll see. I don't know. I hope it works out. But you know, it's an expensive business too. So I got to figure out how to make it all balanced.
Chris Spear
Yeah, same here. I know what you're saying. But I mean, I think everyone's so caught up in this work thing. You know, it's like, what the personal chef business I don't work five days a week, and I sure as heck don't work like 80 hours a week. And I still catch some flack from a lot of restaurant chefs like, oh, it must be nice to work three days a week, and that, you know, that kind of nonsense.
Unknown Speaker
And then you say it is you're right.
Chris Spear
Yeah, I've got family. I've got a wife. I've got kids. I've got things I want to do. Yeah, I went out and did a party on Friday and made $2,000 in a day like don't hate because $15 an hour jobs like you chose that there are options out there.
Unknown Speaker
But the thing is, and as I was when I was a chef, I was the biggest one of those people, whatever you call them, and it was if now it makes me sick because it's like, I like I don't know who told us We were supposed to work all the damn time and that's what life is supposed to be like, but I just I don't want that anymore. Like, that was a big part of this for me I like I am the number one workaholic type of person I'd say. It's disgusting like I can just forget about everything else and just work and I needed that winter time like at this point like I like I don't know that I could have kept doing things at the pace I was doing them. Because it just it you just end up like that, like, Oh yeah, I wish I could work that long. Like Well, you could. It's just what you see as successful what you deem as successful or having a life or whatever, if you want to be the best chef and have the Michelin stars and whatever go fly across the country and do events and great enjoy it but you're gonna be busy and tired and miserable all the time. But if you want to build a life for yourself that works for you, and then you can have your family or whatever and travel and do whatever you want to do. Is it what life is about actually and not making money and being like getting awards and accolades and all that shit. Like, I don't know, for me, the farming like, there isn't like a greatest farm award or like a Michelin star for farms and like, that's what's so great about it. It's just like, I just, I get my award when people buy my cars, buy my products and keep coming back for him because I like him so much. that's rewarding to me. And yes, a lot of work. But it's also at the end of the day, it's gardening. So if it rains on a day that I'm supposed to work, I just like, take the day off. I know that a lot of farmers would be like, what are you crazy, get your anger out and like and like that's fine for them. But I'm not that serious about it. I I don't want to be sopping wet. I don't want to be you know, working seven days a week for the whole summer. Like I take a day off here and there. Sometimes I don't but
Unknown Speaker
the whole point is just to work less eventually.
Chris Spear
If you can find something you love and it pays the bills, then
Unknown Speaker
I say go do that. Right. And that's the thing and like I can make, like this year I'm slotted to make almost as much as I made when I was a chef, and I'm going to do it in nine months. So like, for salary, not even, that's not gross sales. That's like after expenses. So, like, I don't know how you argue with that, like, and if you love doing it on top of it, then great. I get to spend every day with my dog. Like, my neighbors are like, where do you go with your dog every day? Boy, what do you do for a living? Oh, my God, she just runs around and chases rabbits all day. Like it's great. For every day that's rainy and cold or too hot or whatever, there's 10 days that are 70 degrees and slightly breezy and like a nice like sunny day. Like it feels like when you're farming. So it's like it's just nice being outside and working. So
Chris Spear
have you ever thought of doing anything outside of the food business? If you weren't working on a farm? If it wasn't a restaurant? Do you have any secret jobs that you would want to be doing?
Unknown Speaker
Thanks? Oh, I mean, for me, everything's food. Like my coworker said we should be flower farmers. As I'm just not interested in, like, I can do it I grow flowers like deliver flowers to people's house now and I like to do it. And I you can't do it without smiling because it's just like a nice thing to make a bouquet and harvest flowers on and stuff. But like 10 to 15 bouquets twice a week is pining for me, I don't need to make that my whole life I, to me, food is the most important thing and like, and for me, at the end of the day, if I can't sell it, at least I can eat it. So like, I'm not gonna starve to death. And that to me is I mean that kind of security is really important, especially in today's age where like grocery shelves are empty and like, yeah, you can get sick if you go to the grocery store. Like I don't. For me, it's not. To me growing food is like the most important thing right now. For fun and for like being a little bit more like anti fragile in my lifestyle.
Chris Spear
So I want to throw some rapid fire questions at you. Are you ready for that? Yeah, I'm ready. So I always ask people kind of like what they're saying Foods aren't enough for you. I'd like to say what do you have favorite vegetables? What are you really into? And anything? especially interesting that maybe our listeners haven't had or? I don't know.
Unknown Speaker
So, so you need to cook or to grow?
Chris Spear
either or both.
Unknown Speaker
It's a good question. I love okra. I'm a sucker for okra and it gets a bad rap. It's one of those things that's super polarizing, but I just I maintain that people just don't know how to do it. If you just take a bite of it and you're worried about that slimy texture. Yeah, it's gonna it's going to get it but like, if you make anything that saucy or Stewie or like now it's okra tomatoes come out together. If you're not putting a couple of workers in your salsa, word, tomato salad or whatever then you're not doing it right because it that water you run it you get on your plate like goes away. It just becomes one cohesive thing when you mix it over into it and like I put it in all my soups and stews because it makes it just have like a such a hardier texture. I fried for fun. Like I just love it. It's it's one of those things that like, people don't give enough of a chance because of the texture. Yeah, but I also grow I grow a red and a green variety of okra and I mix them together. So it really makes it I think, even more fun for me at least and then for hopefully for when people are like, oh, because like the people who won't be just like, Oh, I kind of like go cry. It's either. I hate that stuff, or that's my favorite thing. So people then who are like this My favorite thing and they're like, ooh, read a book or two. This is super cool. Like it really has that extra level of like, Oh, this is awesome. So yeah, I'd say that's probably by the one.
Chris Spear
I've never seen a red okra before.
Unknown Speaker
Yeah, it's super cool. It's and it stays red when you cook it too unlike like purple green beans, which turn white or turn green when you go home like the red ochre and burgundy red thing is called, stays red is really fun.
Chris Spear
Really cool. My kids just discovered pickled okra a couple weeks ago. And they could like, we eat everything pickled in the summer. You know, especially having kids who don't necessarily love vegetables. I find if I just pickle something, they'll eat it. So every night we have like a pickle plate on the table Tonight, tonight with cucumbers because I'm growing the row seven cucumbers which I'm pulling 11 cucumbers a week off of one bush. Yeah. And it's like, there's only so many things you can do with them. And those ones are pretty cool. I've grilled them up before. But just I'll pick up a batch of that pickle a batch of cauliflower. So we try and have pickles on the table every night.
Unknown Speaker
Awesome. And is that row seven cucumbers like that bush like stays with you for a while. When did you win? Oh, yeah.
Chris Spear
So it went. We are probably three weeks of harvesting cucumbers at this point like it started slow and now we're kind of in peak. And right now I have like five of them hanging out there. So we literally just pulled 11 off in the past three days. And now I'd like five more and that's coming off of one plant. Yes. Do you have any resources for people who want Maybe get into like gardening, maybe not farming on your scale. But if someone has a little plot of land in their backyard that they just want to do, where should they look? Are there websites, books, Instagram accounts, just to kind of turn people on or any advice that you actually have? That would be really good?
Unknown Speaker
Uh, yeah, I mean, the best advice was a farmer friend of mine who runs an organic farm on Virginia. He was just like, just get your hands in the dirt and start doing it, it'll probably work out. And that was really like the kick in the butt. And he was just like, do it. But that for me, it's just like, yeah, just get out there and try it. But as far as like physical resources, YouTube is a great place for gardening or like, even like the small scale farming, like they have a lot of great pointers to kind of manage weeds effectively and that sort of thing and like manage growth and trellising in an efficient way. Whereas like a lot of the stuff you buy in a garden center is crappy and like takes more time. And it's worth and it's really expensive. So, because like, I don't know how much one of those tomato cages cost, but they are only four feet tall. And then, like my cherry tomatoes right now are 10 feet tall. Like, there's, there's no tomato cage built to handle that sort of thing. So just like so there's YouTube, there's a guy called Curtis Stone, who does like, you know, he was like a major inspiration in my farming at least. And he does like small scale farming in people's backyards he like rents people's backyards from them, and then turns them into like little micro farms and uses that as like his business. And then Jesse frost, so that's the rough draft farmstead or no till growers. They do really great and he's really fine. He really great videos of like starting a farm or just growing tips or like, this is what I'm trialing and all that sort of thing. And then yeah, I don't know much about gardening sets. Charles doubting was an English guy. He does some really great gardening videos out where he's at. And he's been doing an organic no dig garden since like the 80s. So he knows his stuff. And yeah, but the internet is probably the best bet. As far as books, like, there's a few farming books, but I don't have much in the way of gardening books. I don't know. I don't spend a lot of time in Rome because it's not efficient enough for me, there's not enough. Like, I have to do things in rows, I have to like make sure that my weeds are managed in 40 foot stretches not in a 10 by 10 because to me, that sounds like it would say five minutes each day to pool. So that sounds fine.
Chris Spear
This year, there was a run on tomato cages as well. So we had to modify some stuff on our own at home, I guess, you know, everyone's gardening this year, which is great. I'm so glad. But I called like four places in town and none of them had them and one guy actually laughed at me Like we're not getting any more in this year. So figuring out how to do it without that, but yeah, I mean, I have a couple cages and my plants have already grown out of them. It's ridiculous. The cage isn't doing that much. So
Unknown Speaker
now, I mean, it's fine for like when they, when they first try to flop over, but otherwise in some ways I do like I would do like a medium my home garden when I was just gardening, I would do like kind of imagine like a soccer goal frame looks smaller, like you know, six feet tall with like two by fours and just like a big, you know, to to go up and down and one across the top and then five strings from an end tomatoes will just hang off the strings. And you kind of have to go and twist them up. But they that holds them up well enough and that's what I do at the pharmacy. But you know, we have 1000 tomato plants. So it just takes a lot more time.
Chris Spear
That's a lot of tomato plants. Yeah.
Unknown Speaker
It's more than I've ever grown at one time for sure. But it's been great.
Unknown Speaker
It's been It took a good amount of time to get all the strings tied and then prune but now they're they're churning.
Chris Spear
How do you pick what varieties you want to grow? Are you experimenting every year with different things? Or have you found things that just work and you're sticking with those
Unknown Speaker
a mix of both so depends on the plant like I really like growing. So like I said, I have a small scale so I can experiment to too much to kind of have to find what works and like these are cats. These are scallions, these are tomatoes and just kind of go with it. But yeah, I do a little bit of experiment experiments and each year to make sure I'm not just like kind of repeating the same thing, but I always go single tomatoes because they're the best. And those are those are like restaurant quality, like orange cherry tomatoes that are just they have the most like, they're just the sweetest tomatoes on the planet. And they're hyper productive too, which is great Ahrens and, and I grow. Physically, I think of it from like, the back end, so I'm like, Okay, if I'm at a farm market I want to have a mix of cherry tomatoes. So I know I'm gonna grow the cycles because it tastes the best so that I have my give it to a customer they will buy kind of thing like this. If you eat this, you will love this. And then I have the like then so you need a red cherry tomato. And then like I also put in some yellow grape trades diminishes for color. I don't think I'll grow them again. But they're not bad. They're just not as productive as I'd like. And they split all kinds of stuff. So I think, yeah, basically I just look at it like what a mix looks like and say okay, red, yellow and orange. That's a good mix and there's a couple of different sizes and shapes in there. And then heirloom tomatoes I go straight up like on yield I just like pick the heirloom tomatoes that yield the most. And I don't know how I feel about that this year, but it's better than last year so I guess I can't complain. And then with everything else, it's like you know, some veggies, some varieties take a little bit less time. Some take more Time Some are more uniform some have better flavor so it's just kind of guessing and talking to other farmers what varieties they like and just going from there so I know I have like my scallions I know I love the variety that I grow but like in the carrots I know I love the variety I grow but I'm not sold on the radish varieties I grow I'm not sold on the Spanish varieties I grow like lettuce varieties I think I'm getting comfortable with but yes, it's kind of just like over time and then it's always experiments like you know and having fun with stuff with because you got to keep it interesting, right but you don't you can't cook the same dish every day. You got to change it up. And so that's kind of like oh yeah, this row was really cool and I haven't looked at special product this year for this one or two weeks only but and maybe next year I'll grow more but for the most part I kind of want to in my situation I can't afford to like lose all my crops. So like I have to make sure that like okay, I know I can grow the parade's galleons every time perfectly. So That's what we're gonna grow. So it's kind of a mix of like safety and kind of experimentation.
Chris Spear
That makes sense for sure. Yeah. So do you have anything you want to add before we get out of here today?
Unknown Speaker
I don't think so. I hope I didn't. poopoo restaurants too bad. They gave me everything in my life from there put me where I am now. But I just
Unknown Speaker
I just can't,
Unknown Speaker
I just can't do it anymore.
Chris Spear
This is the chef's without restaurants podcast, it's okay. So many of our listeners are here because they're not interested in working in restaurants. So we totally understand we got your back.
Unknown Speaker
Yeah. And then I guess the only other thing would be a plug. Like if you're in Frederick area, or DC area, head to the website, and
Chris Spear
we'll deliver food right to your house. And the show notes. We have links to websites, social media, all that will tag the business when the podcast is released, so people will know where to find you.
Unknown Speaker
Awesome, cool.
Chris Spear
Sounds good. Cool. Well, thank you and to all our listeners. This has been the chef's without restaurants podcast, as always, you can find us at ceso at restaurant dot com and.org and on all social media platforms, thanks so much and have a great day.
