On Writing Cookbooks and Making Pie - A Conversation with Author and Recipe Developer Cathy Barrow

Andrew Wilkinson : 0:00

This is the Chefs Without Restaurants podcast with Chris and Andrew. Today on the show we have Kathy Barrow. Kathy is a writer, and has several cookbooks. She's an expert pie maker. She is a also a columnist for The Washington Post, and probably many other things. Tell us a little more about yourself.

Cathy Barrow : 0:31

Yes, I'm a cookbook author, a recipe developer. In food writing. There's a lot of different kinds of writing, people tend to ask me, when they hear I'm a writer, they think "what restaurants do you like?" Well, I'm a recipe developer, not a restaurant critic. So I make up my own recipes. And I've been doing that for the last eight years for The Washington Post. And I've written for most of the major food publications, and three books now.

Andrew Wilkinson : 0:57

Do you ever consult restaurants on their recipes.

Cathy Barrow : 1:01

No, I haven't done that so much. But I have taught several restaurant chefs how to preserve my first book was on preserving. And interestingly, even the very best pastry schools in the country don't necessarily teach how to make jam. And if you think about how often smear of raspberry jam goes in between layers of cake, it's surprising to me that those pastry chefs come out of school without knowing how to do that. And so several have come to me to learn how to do basic jam making. I've taught pickling and tomato canning to other chefs. So that would be the primary way that I work with chefs.

Andrew Wilkinson : 1:44

What's that book called? We'll link to it but I also want to know for myself

Cathy Barrow : 1:47

It is called Mrs. Wheelbarrows Practical Pantry. And it's not only jams and jellies and pickles, but also pressure canning which teaches you how to can and store things. like chicken stock or dried beans, all ready to go. So instead of buying your can bait black beans at the grocery store, you get canned black beans right out of your pantry. And it's got a section on preserving meat. So bacon and smoked meats and brisket, things like that. And fish, and then a section on cheesemaking. So

Andrew Wilkinson : 2:23

I'm gonna need that it's very relevant to me. We have so many beautiful tomatoes in the summertime here. And I do pizza. So...

Cathy Barrow : 2:31

But seriously, it's so easy. It's so easy. I've written about tomato canning, I don't know a dozen times probably. Because everybody should do it. When we have a good tomato season. There's no reason not to put up quarts and quarts of tomatoes to use, because if you think about how many of those heavy cans of tomatoes as a home cook, you carry home every week. just multiply that by 52. And that's how many you should can in the summer.

Chris Spear : 2:57

I think it's very daunting. You hear a lot about like botulism and food safety. And I think people get so scared. I know even myself, when I have a ton of tomatoes, I'll just throw them in a Ziploc freezer bag and throw them in kind of whole in the freezer.

Cathy Barrow : 3:10

Becasue you have a big freezer.

Chris Spear : 3:12

Yes. And it takes up way more space than I'd like. So I would like to get more into canning, but something I haven't even gotten into myself yet.

Cathy Barrow : 3:20

Here's what I have to say about being afraid of it. There are better ways to kill your family than trying to do it with canned tomatoes. Seriously, it's so it's so rare. It is so rare than anything like that would happen, and that you wouldn't see that there was a problem. If canning doesn't work, usually you get mold. botulism is a issue of acidity. And you can use pH strips if you want to get nervous, but you can also just put some citric acid in the tomatoes and you're done. It's safe. tomatoes have varying pH depending on different heirloom varieties but also the quality of soil. How much rain there I mean, all kinds of things. And citric acid just gives you that added ingredient that makes sure that it's safe. So easiest can be.

Andrew Wilkinson : 4:09

And you just usually use that in like a powdered form.

Unknown Speaker : 4:12

Yeah. Cheap. Easy. I mean, the biggest problem with canning tomatoes is that it makes an unholy mess. It does.

Andrew Wilkinson : 4:22

For me, I make a mess anyway. So which book was your favorite to write?

Cathy Barrow : 4:28

You know, I've loved writing all of them. It's so engrossing to get involved in a book, you're just your whole brain becomes that book. It's all you think about sleep, eat and dream about it. And so the first book was really challenging. It was so new to me. So I had to learn how and in many ways, like my first child, I guess, is that one I'm very happy and proud of but the other two have have reached broader audience in many ways. And they were a lot of fun to write. And it wasn't like every page had to be filled with warnings about how you're not going to kill your family. You know, nobody worries about that with a pie. So, for those I just had a good time with all of them really. I can't pick.

Andrew Wilkinson : 5:19

So what's the process of writing a book like this? I mean, does it start with just a list of recipes, and then you kind of put the story into it?

Unknown Speaker : 5:30

So it starts with a proposal. And that's the hardest part. And people say, oh, spend a lot of time on your proposal, because then you've done your work. And that's really true. The proposal involves your list of recipes, sample recipes, the table of contents, what order Do you want to tell them? Maybe an introduction? It might not be your final introduction, but it's an introduction to the editors who might be interested in buying the book. And so in that way, it's your sales tool. What's this book about why are you writing it? What's your competition? So a whole section in the proposal about marketing and other books on the topic? And are you different? Are you better? Or did those sell a lot? Has there not been a book like that in many years? So the proposal for my first book took two years, or the next two, it only took about four or five months. But it's not an inconsequential amount of time. It's not like you sit down over the weekend and write a proposal, right? Because that's where you develop your voice. And it's the thing that the editors use to sell your book to their internal people. Like what makes this book interesting to a publisher. That's where you start. And once that's done, I've been using a really fantastic program called Scrivener. And it is an organizing tool for book writing. So it works on any platform, but for me, it's very visual. It's full For each chapter documents for each recipe, and the beauty of it is that you can actually move it around physically. And I mean, I started writing my first book in Word. And so when I wanted to move a recipe I would cut and paste. And we all know the stories of the cut than the pace that doesn't pay, right. And so, Scrivener saves me from those moments, which is wonderful. And so I work in Scrivener, and then, you know, it's it takes a long time it's taken. Each of my books took about nine months to write. And while you write it, you test the recipes, my recipes are all tested until they're satisfactory. And once satisfactory, I'll make them three more times to make sure that they work out the same way each time. And after that, it goes to a recipe tester, a professional woman I know in Maine has been testing all of mine and she'll tell has to three times and very different, maybe different equipment or different periods of time that things rest or don't rest in between. And so we get down to a recipe that can be counted on to work the same for absolutely everybody who picks up the book if they follow the rules. So once that's all done, then you go into photography, and each recipe, you know, I always take my own pictures while I'm going and that Scrivener has a wonderful system where you can pop the photo right into the program. So when I get to the photoshoot, we open up the program, we look at the photo I took, have a discussion with the photographers about what's the best look, and then we have to think about the order in pi squared. Every single recipe was made in a nine by 13 quarter sheet pan, and was basically brown because it was pie and so we had to think about How do we make 100 pies look different when they're basically all look the same. So there's a lot that goes into it. And I don't know that when you pick up a book, you necessarily understand that offhand. But I think that a person's reaction to the book is probably result of how much time is spent in each of those.

Chris Spear : 9:23

I love cookbooks. But I've noticed increasingly, I find more errors in them. And is that just trying to put out too many recipes too quickly?

Cathy Barrow : 9:32

What kinds of errors?

Chris Spear : 9:33

Some are conversion errors, like on page five, it'll say five ounces is 20 grams. And on the next page, it'll say five ounces is 50 grams. And I'm not really good with conversions in my head or any of that, but I know that somewhere along the way... so do you go with the ounces, or do you go with the grams? And that's one big thing I've noticed.

Unknown Speaker : 9:56

Well, I would say, I mean, that's really on the public. Because I will turn in the best version of my manuscript, and then my editor will get it, we go back and forth on style and the words and the order of things. And they might, you know, do like your high school English teacher and really go through with a red pen. But the copy editor is the one who looks for consistency. So it's the copy editor who will pull up every time that you say, a quarter cup of chopped parsley. And in every place does it always say that that's, you know, 28 grams. Does it always say chopped parsley? Or does it sometimes say flat leaf parsley comma chopped? So that is a copy editor job.

Chris Spear : 10:51

And then I think there's some variations, because it's food. You know, I found a recipe where it was something with a grilled zucchini and it said "Gril the zucchini for five minutes until it's soft and done. But I had a bigger zucchini. Zucchini has so many different sizes. And I think that being a chef, I know how to adjust, but I'm sure that's very hard if you're selling a cookbook to the general public, because if I pulled that zucchini off in five minutes, there was no way. And I guess that's some of the stuff that's not controllable.

Unknown Speaker : 11:22

if I were doing that, I would say, one medium zucchini sliced one half inch thick. And then if you had a large zucchini, you would still slice half an inch thick, and it would still cook in the same amount of time. So you see, I think that's sloppy.

Chris Spear : 11:37

Yeah. Because because it took me 20 minutes to cook it to the point that I felt like it should be. And I feel like if anyone made that and it was five minutes, it wouldn't come out that well.

Cathy Barrow : 11:48

I think that you may find more cookbooks have those sorts of errors in them and I just don't find it acceptable. No, I don't think they should. That's That's our job. I look at the manuscript when it goes into the, to the editor in my format, and I might look at it 15 more times before it goes to the publisher. And every time I'm going to read it all the way through and carefully and it's hard. If you've written it, and you've read it 15 times, sometimes you know the words too well. But, you know, it's a team effort.

Chris Spear : 12:23

I'm sure it's interesting, because you are a recipe writer and developer, but now you're seeing all these chef-driven cookbooks and who's writing those, you know, a chef isn't necessarily best suited for writing a cookbook.

Cathy Barrow : 12:36

Chefs aren't writing them...ever, really.

Chris Spear : 12:36

So whos's writng them?

Cathy Barrow : 12:40

Ghost writers or recipe developers or writers

Chris Spear : 12:44

So a chef would just hand them their recipe or talk about the ideas?

Cathy Barrow : 12:47

It's a long job. You hang out with someone in their kitchen, you take their, you know, restaurant recipes that make maybe 50 that'll serve 50 you've got to get it Down to serving six, but it's not just math, because like that zucchini, if you're cooking, a pork roast, let's say in a restaurant, you might get a giant like a really big loin roast. But at home, you're going to get a small piece. And so it's going to cook different things. So that partnership between the writer and the chef is about learning to speak in their voice, and cook in their style. But do it in the home cooks kitchen because the the stove is going to be different. You know, in the restaurant, you turn it on high and man that stuff cooks in a nanosecond. But at home, if you want to boil something, it takes a while to get it to boil on a home cook stove. So it's a real partnership chefs. Very rarely are they writing their own books. Occasionally, but usually they need a writer there. There are a lot of books that come out. I mean, I think some of the problems that we see are just because of the volume. I know that when Pie Squared came out in 2018, there were 93 cookbooks that came out that day. So there's a flood of cookbooks and they're not enough editors, maybe? I don't know.

Chris Spear : 14:33

Is there a reason that they all come out in October? Is it for the pre-Christmas rush? I mean, I always think of October as like, oh, there's gonna be 40 books out that I want to get.

Unknown Speaker : 14:43

That's just the way it is that September, October tend to be the bigger months. People come home from their summers they're ready to sort of dig in school is starting they want to cook good food, looking forward to cooking for the holidays, and then purchasing for gifts.

Andrew Wilkinson : 15:01

A cookbook is a great gift.

Unknown Speaker : 15:04

Especially Pie Squared, or When Pies Fly. There you have it. So I'm really curious. Where, where was this breaking point that made you want to decide like I'm gonna write a cookbook.

Cathy Barrow : 15:21

So, I was a landscape designer, which was my second career that I took on when my husband I got married. In the year 2000, I decided to go back to graduate school in landscape design, and I became a landscape designer. And I had a really nice little business going for about eight years. And then in 2008, the economy collapsed. And all of my clients just, you know, their landscape money, suddenly became their kids college money. And so I just lost my work. And at the time, I was in a women's group, and we were all about 50 and we We were trying to figure out what was next everybody was struggling. Some women, their kids had gone off to college, they were empty nesters and others were struggling with marriage issues or career issues. And for me, I was just out of work. And I said to them, I have no idea what to do with myself. I'm not ready to stop working. And each of them told me that I should start teaching cooking classes because I had taught all of them how to cook and I'd been the one who brought stuff to the get togethers. I've just been known as a cook all my life. And I laughed and said, Well, yeah, great idea who's who's gonna come and how will they ever find out that I'm holding classes, and my friends encouraged me to start a blog and honest to God, I didn't even know what they were. I had never read one. It wasn't part of my life to be on a computer like that I was out planting flowers. So one was a graphic designer and she set me up and I just started writing and plugging things in and talking about recipes and thinking nobody was reading it, but a few people were. And as it turned out, one of the people that was reading it was Bonnie Fenwick of The Washington Post. And when I entered a pie contest, that September, I won, she was the judge, and she asked me who I was. And I told her and she said, Oh, I've been looking for you. And as I've just wasn't even part of the food community, I was just a home cook. And, you know, writing a few things on my computer. And so Bonnie gave me an opportunity that year to have some cookie recipes in the Washington Post cookie section. And then the following year, I started a blogger challenge called shark Kuta Palooza to teach people how to make charcuterie at home. And that went for a year and I got a lot of like recognition for that. And that December, The New York Times editor the food section, Susan edge really asked me to start writing cannon column for the times. So I had kind of gone from zero to 60. I mean, I literally have never written anything in my life. And now, my first paid gig was for the New York Times. It was a little mind blowing. And I had a great experience there for a couple of years. And Bonnie the whole time was not real happy. It's just like, you live in DC. Why are you writing for those people? And eventually they Lord me back. And I've been writing for the post now for eight years. But it was through other people telling me that I knew what I was doing, because I didn't think I did. But I was evidently a good writer. And, and so once I had the platform at the times and some magazines and my blog and shark Kuta Palooza, I got an agent and then started working on the book proposal that took a very long time for the first one.

Andrew Wilkinson : 18:53

That's a really awesome story.

Cathy Barrow : 18:55

You never know what life is gonna hand you.

Unknown Speaker : 19:02

Did you develop recipes for yourself as a home cook a lot before?

Cathy Barrow : 19:05

Yeah, I never called it that. I got married, and my husband was a vegetarian, and I really had never cook that much vegetarian food although I love vegetables and I like eating that way I it was not the way that I would plan a meal. And so once we were together, I had to start thinking in an entirely different way about cooking. And so I remember the first thing I ever invented because of him was Bolinas sauce where I ground the mushrooms like you would grind meat and then treated mushrooms just like ground beef and did all the same things that you would do to make classic Bolinas. And so I guess that I was like, wow, I embedded that you know what I mean? But Basically and even to this day, while I have a very extensive cookbook collection, if I want to learn to make something, I will read all that I can about it. But then I go in the kitchen and figure it out on my own.

Andrew Wilkinson : 20:14

I'm similar in that way. I just like to experiment.

Unknown Speaker : 20:18

Yeah, I do too. And I'm not afraid for my failure might look like, you know, it might look like pizza for dinner.

Andrew Wilkinson : 20:24

There's nothing wrong with that. So, where did that where do you think that came from? Was there somebody early in life that kind of left their mark on you as far as?

Cathy Barrow : 20:35

Yeah, my mom and I used to watch Julia Child together and we would cook together. My grandmother and I cook together my great grandmother. Her one of her sons was a farmer and I used to go It was kind of an indentured servant in the summers and I would be helping her preserve all of the things that he grew from the time I was very young, like four or five years old. So cooking wasn't something that I was like. I think now People say, Oh, my daughter's going in the kitchen with her grandmother. And it's like fun times. I was in there to work. I was in there washing dishes and you know, crack the eggs and measure the flour. And it was I was helping.

Andrew Wilkinson : 21:13

I am curious, you mentioned it before, in the proposal writing about marketing. Yes. So I'm kind of curious at how, what kind of strategy you use as a writer to market yourself and and what would you propose to a company for that?

Unknown Speaker : 21:31

Well, my first career was in marketing. So that gives me a little bit of a leg up, I do at least have a sense of what works and what doesn't. In some worlds, publishing is a is a very strange world. Indeed. I mean, I don't always understand it. The traditional trajectory has always been booked touring, which actually doesn't. I don't think that moves the needle very much. But it's a wonderful thing to do. It's great to visit With independent bookstores, give them my support, bring in some of my readers into their shops, I get to visit with friends around the country. I mean, there are a lot of reasons for me to go around. But that's not what most, I think. I've been spending most of my energy and resources on social media. That is where you make a name where people get accustomed to what you do learn to ask questions, interact with your reader. So that's where I invest... in social media.

Chris Spear : 22:31

How many of you recipes do share? Is there kind of an average if you put out a book are you sharing the recipes from the book, as far as a publisher

Cathy Barrow : 22:38

We will cull a handful, and I think in the pie books, we had seven or eight that were on the publishers website, and that were then made available through links through my social media. And those are also the recipes that are made available to media outlets and bloggers. They want, you know, they'll get a free book and then they'll run a recipe. But once the books out, there's no, there's no holding the recipe is your own. And recipes aren't copyrightable. So, there you go.

Chris Spear : 23:12

On that note, so does that mean it's okay for someone to republish, as long as they give you credit? Like, could I take one of your recipes from your book, posted on my website and say this came from her book, what's the ethics and even legal standard?

Unknown Speaker : 23:25

Rthically you should go to the publisher and ask for the publishers permission. And then at the bottom, you'll see things that say, like reprinted with permission, that's the thing to do. Do people always do that? No,

Chris Spear : 23:39

Sometimes all I'll make significant changes. And I won't even give the base recipe so I'll say I made this hot sauce based on Sean Brock's hot sauce. So buy his cookbook, find his recipe and then switch the you know, Chipotle as to something else, but because I've never felt comfortable publishing that recipe and it seems like It'd be a lot of work to contact someone to say, could I publish that recipe and then give my own changes?

Cathy Barrow : 24:05

It's pretty easy. I mean, there's a email address somewhere in every book that'll get you back to the publishers. And you just write to publicity. And I've never seen them say, No, they might have an embargo. Like if the book is coming out, my book came out September 17, they would send the advance copies but embargo any recipes until publication date, but, you know, they're very willing, everybody's happy for the publicity. It's free. It's easy. But nobody feels good about people lifting your recipe without attribution.

Andrew Wilkinson : 24:40

I think a lot of times, like contacting people, like a publishing company, is just an intimidating thing. But we tend to like say no for people a lot. Like before they tell us now, I do it all the time. So that's just what I thought of,

Cathy Barrow : 24:56

Let me go back to social media. I mean, social I've been in and on social media since the moment I started blogging. I was already kind of dabbling. I like social media for somebody who works alone at home. Social media is like the watercooler. Okay, I'm gonna get up, I'm gonna go on Facebook, I'm gonna see who's around and have a conversation. I can waste some time. We're always looking for that. And it's in the 10 years since I've been on Twitter and everywhere else, it's certainly changed. And Twitter is a is an angry place. Facebook is, you know, sending me messages that I don't want to receive from foreign countries. And then there's Instagram. And I think Instagram is where a lot of people are migrating because it seems friendlier, and it's pretty.

Chris Spear : 25:49

I'm still a big fan of Twitter. That's how I found you. You know, I moved to Maryland in 2007 and didn't know anyone and I really wanted to kind of connect with the DC food community and just find out who was There. I tell everyone filters are your friends. I don't think people it takes time. But like going into Twitter and muting words, I think I have 200 muted words like if you don't want to hear anything about the president, you can mute the words, right president you can, you can just unfollow and say, like, show less like this. So that I've really curated a feed still of just the people and the topics that I want to see. Because I think there's still a lot of people out there, who you can connect with and have great conversations with and if you can just kind of get around all the other noise that you don't want. But I loved it. And all these people who now I'm friends with in the DC food community, it came from, you know, 10 years ago of being on Twitter where I thought was such a great place because you can interact better than Instagram. That's true. I mean, you can still interact on Instagram, but Andrew post a photo pizza might say, Oh, that looks delicious. And he might come back, come back and say thanks, but you're not having these conversations that go over the course of a couple days, right? The same way you would on Twitter, so I still love it.

Unknown Speaker : 26:53

This might be a generational thing, but I find that Facebook seems like an angrier place to me.

Cathy Barrow : 26:58

Does it? That's interesting.

Andrew Wilkinson : 27:01

Like, for people my age.

Cathy Barrow : 27:03

Mine is filled with puppy dogs and people doing goat yoga. Very happy.

Unknown Speaker : 27:10

That makes a lot more sense. What do you think that people are most angry about on Twitter?

Cathy Barrow : 27:15

Well, don't get me going there. Let's talk pie.

Andrew Wilkinson : 27:18

Okay. I guess when I asked I was thinking in the scope of food.

Unknown Speaker : 27:25

I mean, I think there have been some really interesting conversations about ageism, about certainly I can point to people who have opened up the conversation in about inclusion and getting more African American and people of color in leadership positions in the writing community where they haven't been recognized for a long time. And it's really nice to see how and I think Twitter had a lot to do with moving the needle in that and getting more people recognized and noticed and I'm seeing more bio And that's really fantastic. It was, you know, food, the food pages in newspapers were all women. For the longest time, it was just where they would put the lady journalists. And, you know, because it was ad pages. And then it became a place for white men for a long time. And now they're things are shifting, and I think it's a good thing. Yeah, this actually makes me think of something I saw maybe like a day or two ago, that's a little broader. But it said something along the lines of "representation doesn't mean anything without community building". So to me, the way I take that is that, you know, you can have representation in those areas, but it it's not going to last or it's not really doing anything if the people that follow aren't being taught or you know, they just if you have something just to look at, it's not the same. I guess that's another version of walk the walk.

Andrew Wilkinson : 29:02

So when you wrote your first book, there was social media....

Cathy Barrow : 29:06

I guess it was 2013. So yeah. And it was through social media that I became known as that preserving person like, everybody else summer would be, hey, help, I'm I got tomatoes. What do I do? Or is this look okay? And people send me photographs and it was like, preserving for one one. That was what? And and now I'm pi for one month, you gotta be useful now. Yeah, I became useful. Absolutely. I still answer those questions all the time on every platform. All all summer I get these, like, what do I do with these, you know, 15 pounds of blueberries that my kids picked? That sort of thing.

Andrew Wilkinson : 29:46

Yeah. Yeah, that I mean, that kind of communication, like keeps you very relevant. You know, like, didn't do that.

Cathy Barrow : 29:54

Well, for being a parent. It's really joyful. Yeah, find people who are like, I've made this recipe and it's so good. And can I do it with plums instead, and you know that I can be there and have that exchange makes it writing really much more fun.

Chris Spear : 30:11

And going back, that's what I love about Twitter. And I would say like the people that seriously it's both Kenji and Stella Parks... I'm amazed how much time they spend on the internet answering people's questions. And you can just post a photo of a, something that worked or didn't work or just say, "Hey, I'm making a cherry pie and it's watery. What would you do?" I just think it's awesome that these people take the time, probably too much time doing all that. I know, Kenji has backed off a lot, but, but that really makes me want to use their recipes because I feel like they're invested in it.

Unknown Speaker : 30:45

But I think every writer is, honestly. We can't do this job without being invested in that kind of conversation. We're obligated, whether obviously, or some sort of sub rosa expectation, but we have to be out out there. You're not gonna get work.

Andrew Wilkinson : 31:02

What do you think about people that use social media as like their own platform to be a food critic? Well, and when I say critic, I mean like it. I've seen a couple people. There's this guy in the pizza world. He doesn't just review about pizza. He's a writer, too. He's a mathematician. But on the side, it seems like his main focus is like, just being super critical of things that it seems like he might not know that much about.

Unknown Speaker : 31:36

Yeah, well, all you can do is hope that they don't really have that big of platform.

Andrew Wilkinson : 31:41

Sometimes I feel like they're doing it to get a platform,

Unknown Speaker : 31:44

Probably. You know, when I first really became busy on social media, the watchword was authenticity. That's what everybody talks about, like you're gonna get caught if you're not authentic. And I think that's true. And I've always just played it real And I, personally, I mean, I can think of several well known social media people who are not at all like that when you actually meet them. And I find it really disconcerting. I want authenticity in my interactions on social.

Andrew Wilkinson : 32:16

I find that even on a local level with like people that that I've seen on social media, and then I meet them in person and spend some time with him. And they're like, this bubbly, super happy person on social media. And then they're just like, yeah, so kind of boring. Right?

Chris Spear : 32:32

So how long are you going to keep doing pies? Is there something else?

Unknown Speaker : 32:36

I'm onto something else already. I mean, I, I spent three solid years on pies. And I, I'm sure I could come up with another book on pies, but I've done my pie book. And so I'm, I'm working on another proposal. I just before I came here, worked on the last round of edits with my agent and I expect to go out in the next week or so. So we'll see what happens.

Chris Spear : 33:00

So are you always giving pies to people? How does that work when you're developing recipes because if you're making a, you know, traditional dinner cookbook, check in, I'm sure you and your family can eat it, you and your husband, but when you're making pies, that seems like a big old thing you've got.

Cathy Barrow : 33:13

I made 197 pies and pie squared. And I think when pies fly, we actually counted 800 pies that were made. And I lived at the time in a condo. And that was the best thing is that I could put out on email and say, you know, there are three pies going to the mailroom and I would hear people's feet running down the stairs. And I got to be you know, pretty well known but that was that was good. My recipe developer. She made just as many pies as I did. And she lives up in Brunswick, Maine, right off the campus of Bowden and there was a house next door rented house filled with rugby players. And so they ate a lot of pie. But even they toward the end are like okay, and then pie now.

Chris Spear : 34:01

Enough pie moving on. It's my favorite dessert.

Cathy Barrow : 34:04

Well, savory pies are really my favorite.

Andrew Wilkinson : 34:06

Yes. And just savory pastries. Yeah, the pie pastry. But yeah, I love savory pastries. Part of the reason why I love Deb so much. Shout out to Deb's Artisan Bake House in Middletown. So I've been wanting to ask this for since we first started talking, but I'm writing for a paper. What's that like? Is there like a lot of edits you have to go through?

Cathy Barrow : 34:29

It depends who your editor is and who and how you write and all of that you just never know if you're gonna have a lot of at it some some of my things slide through really nicely. And others, you know, get the hammer because I write once a month I'm not on a daily deadline in the same way so I get my deadlines. well in advance. I have a couple of weeks to develop a recipe and but you know, sometimes I'll get my things in and my editor so busy that I don't hear from them until I have an hour And it's got to get done. You know, get me rewrite.

Andrew Wilkinson : 35:08

What types of things would they turn it down for?

Cathy Barrow : 35:11

They don't ever turn it down but they might hate the lede or something like that, or find some word just doesn't work for them.

Andrew Wilkinson : 35:20

And you come up with new recipes for any article you do? Once a month. Which is really fun. This week. I think actually, The Post will run a recipe that I did for a cheesy cauliflower soup that's got beer, so it's kind of like a rarebit soup. It's really delicious. Last month, I did a homemade turkey breakfast sausage. Really good. And so yeah, it's fun things. December was new good candy. You just never know what I'm coming up with. Usually pegged to the season two a little bit or something. That's just Coming. interesting to me, I'm always experimenting and making food.

Unknown Speaker : 36:05

Do you get to like plug your books in, in any of your article? Is that like a no-no.

Cathy Barrow : 36:10

It is. It's kind of like that Chinese wall between advertising and editorial. They do put a nice little squib at the bottom that says, you know that I'm a local cookbook author with these books out. Beyond that...

Andrew Wilkinson : 36:24

Shameless plugs in all your articles?

Cathy Barrow : 36:27

It's really kind of gross to do that.

Andrew Wilkinson : 36:32

So I'm going to ask you some questions. Just answer them as fast as you can. And then at the end, we have a couple ones that aren't really quick answers. What is your favorite tool in the kitchen?

Unknown Speaker : 36:44

My KitchenAid stand mixer. Who's your favorite chef? Does not have to be a celebrity. Locally. I just went to Tarver King's restaurant. The Restaurant at Patowmak Farm. He's got my vote right now.

Andrew Wilkinson : 37:04

Art or science?

Cathy Barrow : 37:05

Art.

Andrew Wilkinson : 37:06

If you got a ticket to go anywhere in the world on a food tour, where is it?

Cathy Barrow : 37:11

Paris

Andrew Wilkinson : 37:13

What is your biggest strength?

Unknown Speaker : 37:19

I think it's probably a personal connection. That's a good one to have. What's one thing that you do differently from everybody else?

Cathy Barrow : 37:30

In the kitchen? Wow. I don't know. Probably, I spend more time alone than most people. How's that?

Andrew Wilkinson : 37:41

That's that works for me. I love alone time. What would you say that you need the most help with?

Unknown Speaker : 37:47

Organization...in my books. I always have all these great ideas, but they kind of land in one big bowl. And I desperately need an editor to help me get the paragraphs in the right order or the chapters in the right order or anything else. The ideas are there. But it doesn't always come out in an organized fashion.

Andrew Wilkinson : 38:06

Yeah. As you were saying before, it kind of takes a tribe to write a book. Right? So do you have restaurant dreams? Or I guess in your case, pie shop dreams?

Cathy Barrow : 38:17

Not a single one. No. I'm a writer.

Andrew Wilkinson : 38:21

Being a writer, could you recommend a book to our guests?

Unknown Speaker : 38:25

Oh, I just read a great novel called The Dutch House by Anne Patchett. It was fantastic. We'll link that in the show notes. What is your favorite coronary resource?

Cathy Barrow : 38:38

The Flavor Bible.

Andrew Wilkinson : 38:40

That's a popular one. We get that a lot.

Cathy Barrow : 38:42

It's great. It's really inspirational.

Andrew Wilkinson : 38:46

Do you find that you use that more on like, the savory side or sweet? Or both?

Unknown Speaker : 38:50

Both. I used it a lot when I was developing jam recipes. As I might say, Okay, I've got a basket of plums. What goes with that? What flavors? And it always led me down some interesting path.

Andrew Wilkinson : 39:04

Very cool. How do you decompress?

Cathy Barrow : 39:07

Knit

Andrew Wilkinson : 39:10

What's your favorite thing to knit?

Cathy Barrow : 39:12

Oh, I make a lot of socks.

Unknown Speaker : 39:17

Like everybody does scarves and hats. I love socks. Okay, so these are our next two. These are the long questions. Okay. What's the best meal you've ever had?

Cathy Barrow : 39:28

My 50th birthday in Paris. I went to lamb fuzzy which means Ambrosia, and it was the truffle dinner and they served polite glass with thin slices of truffle under the breath, skin. It was really extraordinary.

Andrew Wilkinson : 39:44

And finally, what do you want to be remembered for?

Cathy Barrow : 39:46

My pies.

Unknown Speaker : 39:50

I love it. Simple, easy. Well, that's it. Thank you so much for joining us today. It's been a lot of fun with you. Let everybody know where they can find you on social media. Cathy Barrow. I'm everywhere under that name. Awesome. And we are the Chef's Without Restaurants podcast. You know where to find us. Leave a comment, subscribe, review, do all that good stuff. If you have any suggestions, comments or questions, email us at chefswithoutrestaurants@gmail.com. And that's it. That's all folks. Transcribed by https://otter.ai