Opening a Restaurant During the Covid-19 Pandemic - NC Chef Jeremy Law of SOCO Farm and Food

Welcome everyone. This is Chris with the Chefs Without Restaurants podcast, and today I have Jeremy Law of SOCO Farm and Food. Hey, welcome to the show.

Thanks for having me honored.

So these are these are interesting times are they not interesting times indeed. And that's what we've really been talking about the past couple of weeks, you know, it's given me an opportunity to really kind of fine tune the online interview because previously we were, we did like 25 episodes or so where it was all in person sitting down with people here in Frederick, Maryland. And Andrew and I had long wanted to get into doing, you know, guys like you people in other parts of the country that that we were able to, and it was just figuring out what worked and how we did it. And now we just kind of had to do it, right. You know, it kind of like we're all doing with our businesses, you're forced to do something that you maybe don't know how to do, and you learn on the fly. And the first couple times, you know, the first couple of interviews I did were terrible. I tried doing them in my garage, and I was horrible. I have two fridges in there, the compressors would kick on, you get a lot of background noise. So you, you know you figure that out. I have a little setup now in my office. Yeah, getting a little better.

Yeah. I don't know. I'm guessing the some of the questions that you ask people during these times, how has this virus situation affected us? So our restaurant is in eastern North Carolina. We're about 45 minutes east of Raleigh. About an hour and a half hour and 45 from the coast. We are in the process of moving, which is sort of what informs my answer in that. We dodged a bullet. We were closed before this hit. So we didn't have to do with furloughs, layoffs, firings, restructuring, pivoting, all this stuff that's kind of defined this experience for everybody else that I know around here. So we were we were lucky in that regard. Because we knew we were gonna be close during this time because we have we've got an 11 acre farm and Wilson it's been the home for our restaurant for 10 years. We've had a bed and breakfast, we do weddings, but we're in the process now. Kind of transitioning. To focusing more on the food, so we have purchased 125 year old house that we're renovating. It's in Greenville, North Carolina, about half an hour from here. And so we knew this transition was coming. Despite the fact that we weren't at open when this hit, it's added a ton, a ton more stress. I like to be able to plan at least a couple things out. And right now everything is up in the air. And now throw on top of that the fact that we sort of spontaneously just sold our farm, and so we don't have a month to get out. So we're renovating the restaurant. We're moving the restaurant, we're moving our residents. We're buying land, we're building a new residence, we're gonna be living in a camper for the foreseeable future. And then what do we anticipate being the new set of circumstances for the restaurant? Am I going to be paying 15 or $20 a pound for flank steak? I don't know. It's a little exciting, but it's a little nerve wracking. I think we've probably been drinking more than normal during this is Coronavirus pandemic, but I'm still really excited but there are a ton of unknowns and even if you could make assumptions about what the government's going to do whether the federal state level you know what's going to be available for ingredients what are the price is going to be what's going to be the level of safety that our customers feel? Are they going to want to go back out even if it's allowed so I don't know we've we've got some things within the restaurant I think we've got three separate dining rooms so the house we didn't really knock any walls down it still has like the bedrooms all set up in the way the way it was when I was a house. So we do have smaller dining rooms. Can we space adequately within within those walls? I think we can. Is that even gonna be an issue? When say August rolls around, which is when I think we're going to open? I don't know. So I'm, I'm so desperate to get back to the kitchen. I've been doing this for 20 years and I still love it, which is why we're sticking with it. I can't wait to Get back in the kitchen. But what awaits us? I don't know. It's crazy and I don't I don't know what to what to predict.

So are you thinking August is when you would love to start opening up if things go the right direction? I mean, would you be ready potentially open August?

I think so, um, emotionally I was ready about four months ago. But the the renovation the construction shouldn't be done either mid or late June, and I think feasibly August, we get ready to get set up during July hire people. Make sure the equipment's working get set up maybe by by August, either early mid August. That's what we're planning now. But I think as we've all learned over the past few months, planning almost gets you nowhere, because the universe has other other things in mind. So we're thinking that but well, we're going to be flexible because that's what we've had to be so far.

I think sometimes, you know, you need to work within your community. There's like a power in numbers. Have you seen the things The chefs in San Francisco put together the 50 chefs. And kind of like outline is a great thing either posted last week, and I've shared it on our group, basically, like 50, chefs got together and laid out what their ideal plans would be for the whole restaurant community, because they're looking at things like, if you want to have more seating on the streets, we need to close down streets. So what department takes care of that if you put in a carry out window, that's the Department of Health thing, and they're going to want to know how you're controlling flies and stuff, if you want to do to go cocktails, that's, you know, a different department. And it seems like rather than them all kind of going the same route 50 of them got together, and they put together this 41 page plan of what they felt needed to happen for them to successfully reopen and then there's bullet points of each department. This is what the mayor needs to do. This is what the Department of Planning needs to do zoning and I thought was really interesting because I see a lot of cities where that's not happening and it's like, up to every chef and restaurant owner to kind of have their own plan. And I think you Need to cohesively come together and say, as a community, this is what we're looking at, you know, here in Frederick, where I live, I think it would be great to shut down Market Street, which is the big street where all the restaurants are. But then of course, you're going to get some pushback, because that's great for restaurants that want to have seating but then I'm sure all these places that are just carry out are then going to say, Oh, well, now I don't have parking in front of my spot. So you know, it starts to get really political, and really hard. And then in some respects, it turns to like every man for themselves, which I don't think we're going to be able to get through this if it's every man for themselves.

I think it's really surprised me So I ran errands this morning. And what surprises me still and it shouldn't, is the inconsistency. Not just not just between, say the government at the federal level in the state and then actually even like local to some degree, but just from person to person. I go into one store. With I'm wearing a mask, everyone's wearing masks. I go into another store pharmacy, and no one's wearing masks. Just one old woman wearing a mask. There's me. There's a six other customers and four employees, and none of them are wearing masks. And I'm not worried about that if my health and safety truly hinges on everyone else being responsible, I would just wouldn't leave the house. But it's just, it's so splintered and confusing, that even when we get to August and might be able to open, I'm not sure. Like I said, I'm not sure what the what the rules will be. And then what what are our customers comfort zone and what their sentiment is going to be? Because that's it really whatever the government does, it's going to come down to How comfortable are our customers. And that's kind of what we're focused on. Because I don't I don't know coming up on an election if, if anybody at any level is going to be comfortable shutting things down, even if there's a second wave because I mean, now we see numbers going back up, and places seem to be if not oblivious, they're going to they're going to continue on, on that reopening path. Regardless of the number, so, two months from now, three months from now, I'm I don't know, but the San Francisco shifts God, that's probably a very smart idea. I think those of us around here would probably benefit from from that conversation as well.

Having a food community Do you have where you are? I mean, what's the restaurant scene like?

Wilson is small. We were probably the only fine dining spot really here. We were a little different to we did, for course prefer menus. We had the bed and breakfast. Excuse me, the last four years we were pretty small effect. It was just my wife and I so she's my front of the house. I'm the only one in the kitchen. And we had a dishwasher. And it was just the three of us and a full night for us was 24 people. It was two sittings of 12. We didn't turn tables. So if you came for the 6pm seating, and you were still sitting there at 10 it's fine because also we live on the property so we don't have a commute. We didn't have to worry about it. So but restaurants in general in Wilson, we've got a couple casual, fine dining Some great mom and pop like burger joints into like, a couple kind of bottle shop and sandwich shops, but not much of a cohesive dining community. I mean, we know a lot of the other owners, but we're all doing such different things in such a small town that I think even if we were reopening here, I don't know that there'd be a lot of benefit to getting together to figure things out because everyone's situation is so different. Now in Greenville, where we're going, there are some other fine dining restaurants run by friends of ours. And I think that's probably an important conversation to have. We're already friends with them. And I think if nothing else, if we get together, discuss some ideas, some best practices, because a few of them have been doing takeout during this time. I'm kind of looking forward to that, regardless of endemic or nope endemic is having, having some other established fine dining and casual fine dining restaurants, and some chefs that I can call peers. I'm kind of excited about that. So but Greenville has a much larger I think dining scene and Wilson does at least it's there's a there's a larger, fine and casual fine dining scene. So we'll see, the city at least there has been pretty amenable and I think that Greenville is, is still a manageable size, that if the restaurants got together and made some requests to the city, I think I think they'd at least be willing to have the discussion. So I think we've got some options. But like I said, it kind of depends on what the virus does, and then what our customers are thinking and feeling.

So absolutely, I mean, I don't know personally, when I'm gonna be comfortable going back in a restaurant, I hate saying that, like, I love going out. It's our favorite thing. But, you know, if I don't feel like you can space appropriately or, you know, whatever, you can't wear a mask while you're eating. So what does that look like in a dining environment? I think you have to be very comfortable with the place that you're at. But like you said before, you can't control other people. I can say that I know the chef. I know this restaurant. They put these things in effect. And then if you have like someone just like up in your face not wearing a mask being kind of ignorant about things like, I don't know, I don't want to feel that when I go out to eat I don't want to have stress and anxiety when I go out to eat I'd almost rather just have a really high end or delicious takeout meal. We did that last night so weird. My wife and I was our eighth wedding anniversary last year anniversary. Thank you. So you know, we got we got dressed up we put on our masks, we went downtown, we just walked just because we want to get out of the house and take out from one of our favorite Thai places and took it home and just ate it in the backyard. You know, my in laws live with us. So they watch the kids and good night and I kind of snuck in and grabbed a bottle of wine. And we went out and had like a date on the back porch. And you know, I kind of see that's what we're going to be doing for a little while.

So that's the that's the crazy thing. So united spoken before. I know you've got you live with family that is I guess would be considered vulnerable. We don't necessarily have that here. Not that not that my wife and I want to be Coronavirus vectors, but my wife and I talk a lot about About how we were going to handle this, and not just with the restaurant but in life, but with like with life in general. Before we started going back out to the store, we still don't go very often we don't. We don't go out to eat, we don't see many friends. But when I left, I was like, like, how are we going to approach this? How are we going to live? How are we going to continue our system with like the gloves and the mask? You know, when there are people who seemingly don't seem to care? And I feel like we almost had to have like this existential conversation. Like, how do you feel if the odds are that you could get the virus like how do you want to how do we want to live because I know when I go to the store, it's going to affect my wife. And so we kind of I kind of want to be on the same page, but I'm still not sure what to make of it. I mean, I, I know that me wearing a mask protects other people. But when I go to the stores, and they're, I mean folks who seem to be 60 Plus, might be vulnerable, not wearing a mask, not worried about it. They might be standing outside smoking with an oxygen tank. Don't know. And then so how do you live your life if the lowest common denominator, as far as the approach the virus is pretty damn low. Obviously in the restaurant, I can control stuff that goes on in the kitchen, we can we can check our staff, we can have a protocol on the restaurant. But out in the real world, you don't have that kind of control. And so I I'm still kind of conflicted, but I feel like I'm kind of resigned to the fact that it's going to circulate for a while, and it's possible I could get sick. And we'll probably have this conversation again before we open the restaurant. Because like I said, I don't want to spread this around. But it's such a sneaky virus, such a small virus and since most people seem to be doing very different things, and even some people who wear gloves and masks. I've seen people eat with gloves. I've seen people get out of the grocery store with their gloves and their mask on. They get in their car and driving past still with their gloves on pulling their mask down smoking a cigarette. So I don't it's it seems like it's a free for all right Now, and I hope I'm really hoping that it calms down a little bit before our time to open the restaurant rolls around. Because I just, I don't know if there's any way to really stop this thing from circulating for what the next 810 months. I mean, nobody knows. The restaurants I think do have an obligation to, we have an obligation to our customers, not only to keep ourselves safe, but to keep them safe. And I think there's just no playbook for yet.

Yeah, you know, I have my personal chef business and I actually did my first dinner on Saturday night. You know, I haven't had people reaching out but it was their anniversary and they had had me there before. So I think you know, I've pulled my customers a lot and what I'm seeing or hearing is, I think people have hired me before no me No, you know, my sanitation, my practices and are comfortable. I don't know that I'm going to get a lot of new clients in this time. But I do think people who have hired me previously, there's a comfort level, but they ate outside. So you know, traditionally I used to bring all my own plates and silverware and everything and the time you have suspended So they were already on their back patio, they had put their own silverware out there, their own linen napkins that they owned, and they were waiting outside, they left the front door unlocked for me. And you know, when I got out of my car, I had two masks and 95 cloth over it hat. And then went into the house, they had post it notes on every drawer plates, bowls, anything I needed, and they just kind of let me do my thing. And I just got to work and started cooking in there and then played it everything up would come out, you know, I had my gloves on, I'd put the plates down on the table in front of them step back, explain the dish, go inside gloves come off, wash my hands, you know, then new pair of gloves, go back on, make the next course and do that. And that's what they were comfortable with. You know, it was kind of weird, but it didn't feel that different from what I had been doing before, except that we were using their own stuff. And I think as we get into like nice spring days and summer days, kind of hoping that I see more of that as people maybe want to eat out So it's like if you could set your table before I get there and have silverware and be outside and then I'm in the kitchen by myself. I hope that that's, you know me getting back to normal a little

Did you run into any issues? So I was just talking this morning with a friend of mine who has a burger joint in town. The ingredients prices, ingredients and availability, so the prices have gone up considerably. And availability of things that we didn't think about to go containers, those little non eco friendly packages of plastic silverware, all that stuff. Barely available that did you run into any of those issues when you were setting up for your dinner?

So I have gone to the here's what I hope to bring you. You're going to need to be a little flexible, like I used to spell out a menu I'd send menu selections, people would look at it and choose what they want and I was saying you're going to have this salad with Serrano ham Manchego cheese, Marcona almonds and sherry vinegar. And now it's like you're going to have the salad with a cured charcuterie, European cheese Nuts and denigrate and like if I get to the store and they have it great no Maracana Marcona almonds, it's gonna be pecans like if they don't have sherry vinegar, it might be a cider vinegar it like everyone I think understands they're gonna have to be a little flexible

Did you run into any price issues.

See I play on the high end so my dinners are like $100 a person up there so it's not you know, my friends we're doing barbecue and they're getting into issues doing brisket and like what they used to charge for a brisket plate. You know, now it's like almost doubled and it's hard to go from like an $8 brisket plate to a $16 brisket plate is because I'm playing on the higher end I have quite a margin of error so that if Philemon neon, you know jumps from $22 a pound to $27 a pound. I don't need to change pricing. And I also find people are being very nice right now with gratuities and so forth. So I guess comes out in the wash. I think people are very appreciative of the fact that they can't go out and they're bringing me in. So I've seen some really great tips. Yeah with it with this kind of thing because I was working as this started, I think my last weekend was like March 14 15th. And that even that weekend like people were talking about other things coming. Yeah, so I pretty much hadn't worked for almost two months. So yeah, I mean pricing is going to be an issue but for me, I think supplies like, yeah, I went to I don't do most of my meat shopping at Aldi, but we personally shop there and I went there last week, and they had all the slide things for the meat case closed. Like, no poultry, no steak, no pork, like zero 100% out of stock on all their proteins. You know, so like, if I was going there to buy meat, I'd be out of luck. So you know, just at the retail level, and I think yes, at the beginning of this, you know, I'm hearing what they've closed like 20 processing plants. Yeah, there's going to be bigger shortages coming soon and the pricing. My last guest works for a purveyor. A distribution company he said like a buddy of his ordered like 60 or 80 pounds of meat. was short and all of it.

The friend I was talking to today said that he has a pretty good sized order. He said he had more crossed off as unavailable than he actually received. I don't know I we may very well be opening a vegetarian restaurant, depending how things go. Another thing that's come up in my conversations with my wife, in anticipation of open the restaurant have been has been how the politics plays out. And I don't know if you see anything much different up in Maryland, but I know here, it's probably it's definitely more conservative. I mean, we're out in rural North Carolina. Greenville, though it's a college town is still it's probably still gonna be lean more conservative, I think. And I think with that you get people who are less worried about going out about going out without masks about going out to eat. So there's a diff it's it's, it seems crazy, but the politics seem to dictate how people approach the virus. And I don't know. Is that the same up where you are? Are you seeing that yourself? Are you saying With other restaurants in the area, because I know here, I think we're probably in a good spot. Because if everyone isn't afraid, maybe some of the restaurants will do better. But

Yeah, I mean, it's very mixed. So I'm 45 miles out of both Baltimore and DC. So Frederick, where I am is very mixed. It used to be a rural farming community. So you see a lot of people in Frederick, especially the county, who are more conservative Republicans, they seem to have like their view, the city you see a lot of younger people, a lot of, you know, liberal people. So there's a real mix here. And then as you get closer down towards DC, I mean, as you're going down route 270. You have all these major cities. So Maryland is such a mixed thing, you know, and we have a republican governor who I think has been doing a great job, but he's been going and kind of party lines. So he's one of the few that has not been in line with the President's kind of statements and agenda. So there's been some interesting conversation and for There, and then people who used to support him, I think are not supporting him because he's not opening as fast. I think he's done a great job with being conservative thing. We've got a lot of things, you know, going on right now, we have a slow down, opening up, and people who I think voted for him and supported him based on party lines are not necessarily supporting him anymore. And we're looking at county by county because we have some counties that are like, through the roof. So last Friday, they opened up the state into stage one, but then it was like, oh, and these two counties, you're not opening yet. So we're seeing a lot of that in our area to

Montgomery and Prince George are still Stay At Home. I don't know. It's we just never been through anything like this. And I don't I don't know that anybody can make a prediction. And it's tough because our livelihoods kind of depend on being able to make decisions and make a call but there's so many moving parts before we were worried about. Is the menu good enough. Is it interesting? Is it is it something different Different than everyone else's serving. What's our marketing look like? How's our social media feed? And now it's like, think about politics and the virus and ingredient availability. And I've never had to worry about those things.

So backing up a little bit like, tell us a little bit about yourself. What's your background? I mean, you jumped right into Yeah, project, but you like, have you been a chef forever? What's been your background of cooking?

Yeah, more or less. So, I grew up in the kitchen with my mom. I was an only child. As far as I know. You they got it right the first time or they said, that's enough of this shit. And they didn't want any more kids. But mom was always in the kitchen. And so I kind of ended up there with her. And so the kitchen was always a very comfortable place. And though I look back at like high school, even college dishes that I was making, and they were pretty ordered. I always loved the kitchen. I always love food. I like the aspect of food that brought people together. And even though mine was a small family, we always got together for dinner. We always ate together. I don't know food had all these. They're always levels of positivity and unification and my mom also was a great, a great cook. So when I got to college in Boulder, I had been cooking a little bit but I got a job cooking professionally and loved it. And that was back in 99. And it was a chef who was one of food wines, top 10 Best New chefs. And he was opening a second restaurant. I just loved it. I didn't know at the time, but I had undiagnosed a DD. And the kitchen was so comfortable for me not just because I'd grown up in it. But the professional kitchen, as you well know, is frenetic and crazy and it fit it fit my brain perfectly. It took some years before I figured out exactly why cooking was such a good match for me. But I worked. I worked in Colorado for eight years, and then met my wife on a business trip and we moved out here and I started We're working with Chef and kinston, who, at the time did not have multiple restaurants or her own TV show, but I was working with Vivian Howard, a chef in the farmer, and I was one of her first sous chefs. And I did that because I had taken a couple years off of cooking, figuring it would ruin my marriage. I'm sure we've all seen that if if the coke and the alcohol doesn't ruin it, the hours will. And I got back into it. I went to journalism for two years, and then I missed the cooking. And so she said, Well, why don't we? Why don't we see if you still love it. So I went back to work. absolutely loved it more than ever. I got really lucky. I got a pretty good introduction to love North Carolina ingredients, made some good connections around here and I was with Vivian for about 13 months before we open soco. And that was it's been about a decade. And it's kind of worked. I mean, we kind of made a restaurant that works for our relationship. And it wasn't always the plan that my wife would be the the GM in front of the house. But that worked out too. We I think we work together. Well, maybe it's not the case now. But for the longest time we work together better than we were married. And there were a lot of days, we might not be getting along personally. But we had dinner service. dinner service was sacred, we don't fuck with dinner service. And so we would show up, and it was all business. And at the end of the night, we were kind of like, Alright, are we cool? And so the almost seemingly the opposite of what a lot of other people experienced is the restaurant I think, brought us a lot closer together. But yeah, so I guess that was a long answer to the question. Yeah, started started with my mom in the kitchen and then kind of casually took the professional cooking job and just loved it. I've never looked back. And it's been about 20 years now. And I am probably more excited now than I was when I started about getting this next phase of our restaurant going. the kind of stuff we do a lot of people ask it's, it's sort of upscale home cooking. In some ways, it's American Home Cooking with some European filters. Put on it. Maybe I try I'm trying to get simpler as I get older and further into my career. But the one thing that I am really excited about with the new restaurant is I really want to focus on simplicity and execution. I've always kind of been a stickler for that stuff, the whole time we've been here, which has been while I was really enjoying just being the only person in the kitchen because no one else was touching the food. So I'm gonna have to have to relearn how to work with others and share and delegate. But I think I just want to kind of narrow the focus but kind of keep what's always been the essence of soco, for us.

So I've talked about this on the show before, that's something that I learned because now as a personal chef, I have no staff. Nobody helps me. I mean, if I have a party of like 10, or plus 10, or more I do but you learn editing and it's like, that's something I think everyone should learn anyway, and we even talked about it on the very last show of, you know, all these restaurants that are these fine dining restaurants that have you know, 20 components in a dish. There. You hind a screwed right now with the carrier. So, and it's the place is doing really solid, almost like home cooked food, but elevated that I think are going to do well. Because how do you put a million phones and sauces and all these things with where you have all this room on the plate with negative space? Like I don't think you can do that to go. I mean, apparently grant Achatz is doing some stuff, and it's coming up as well, although, although his plates are his dishes are looking quite different than I think most of what he was doing in Alinea. So there are ways to modify but I think editing is very important. It's something that I think especially when you're younger, you could do a little more to learn is like, most of my customers really want almost like that Southern, you know, meat and three kind of thing. You know, like they just want either a filet or a piece of fish or whatever with a starch and a vege. You know, and it can be delicious. You can have some really great, different flavors, but you don't need to have 20 different components in a dish. I know some people push back on that and don't agree with me.

I don't know if you saw the interview between Questlove and Daniel Humm of 11 Madison Park. It was kind of interesting. And it does kind of shine a light. Now I've had some great meals at, for example, Joel Robuchon when he was the Four Seasons in New York, and it's probably what I would describe as tweezer-food. There were some brilliant things, those plates and they were perfectly executed. But is it sustainable when a restaurant has like four people at the past just doing the tweezer part of a dish, and you look at some of the things that Madison was doing and the things that Daniel Han was talking about, and how he's reevaluating. And I don't know that we're going to kill off that ultra fine dining, although some people are wondering that, because we're looking at Noma over in Copenhagen now. Now they're serving burgers and beer. So I don't know. I mean, I think there may be a place for that plated over the top artistry like Alinea. That Noma county used to do but certainly 11 Madison Park Are we going to kill that off? Probably not. But I think there are a lot of things about our industry that have been revealed to be very fragile by this pandemic, you know, people working more hours for not a lot of pay. That's probably a bigger issue for the country at large. But there are probably a lot of things that we can't run as lean as we used to. We need to make sure we're taking better care of our employees, taking better care of ourselves. But to that ultra high fine dining, unless you've got some wealthy wealthy owner, or investor, I don't know that that's going to be as widespread as it was before all this hit us. Fortunately, that's not part of what our plan was for the new space. And I don't know that that's what people are even going to want when things open back up and when we can all get together again. We'll find out but yeah, it's it's pulled back the curtain on some aspects of this industry and a lot of it's not real pretty.

And on a side note, I'm a northerner originally from Massachusetts, but I now live down here in what some people call the South although I know people who are really in the south don't consider Maryland and DC the state south.

You're south of the Mason Dixon.

I actually learned how to make grits from Vivian Howard. I was at a StarChefs workshop, six years ago maybe. So I love grits now and was a big fan. So she did the Pimp My grits workshop. And you have like a whole table of all of them. You know, she had like the blue grid, she had the yellow grids. She had all kinds of stuff and then set up the table with all the toppings and we put everything together. I feel like we put them like in a pincher oven to like boil them or something like we put all the toppings on there and then just put it down the conveyor and let it go. But that was the first time I'd never seen I think like the four to one ratio either, which is kind of like my magic bullet right now for doing grits. So yeah, that was one of the most fun memorable workshops I've ever taken, and really learned to up my grits game after that.

One of my favorite things around here is when I'm able to get together with other chefs and work with them. There's always some new tricks. After we closed the restaurant here, I went and worked with a friend of mine in Raleigh. And his place was had some similarities to ours, but it was still kind of different. I learned so much from him. And just the three months I was working with him, and it was just little, little tips and tricks, little things that he does, that I might have taken years to figure out or I never would have bothered. I love working with other chefs and like, I think like when you came down for the grits thing, when I go to my friend's restaurant, when you're able to collaborate, I always come away with with something new, and having like the grits approach having that grits recipe. I mean, it's so useful. It's so useful and it's so much it's so much better than just throwing the water and the grits in a pan directly on the flame. And hopefully there's more that being spread around when we come back together as an industry. I don't know it's it's it's really been a shake up for everybody, but I guess we'll see where it all lands.

Yeah, you know, and everyone's always asking me for tips like I don't really want to do a cooking show online. I've made that pretty obvious. Like, I don't feel like I'm the guy to do this and have a whole cooking class. But if I can share some of those tips, those are my favorite things. You know, I want to just say, like, I've got my go to pickle recipes like the quick pickle recipe, I think in Momofuku, you know, it's like David Chang's recipe. It's like three parts sugar to one part salts or something like that and toss it and put it in there with no liquid and then like, rinse it off and then put your pickling stuff that's my go to you know, so I'm not usually teaching people recipes. It's just very basic. Like if you're making grits, do four to one if you're doing pickles. Here's the pickle thing instead of giving them this big long recipe for a meatloaf or something.

Is Volt still open right now or not?

No, Volt has been closed a long time. They're not even having their Family Meal open. So Family Meal, which seems like it would be better poised to do carry out they closed almost instantly after that, too. So volt was right away. And then I don't even know if A week that family meal was opened, but they have closed all of those restaurants. Very sad. It's like when you see those post apocalyptic movies, we're walking down Market Street yesterday and we walked by volt. and the old menu from whenever they closed is still like in the window outside and it's all sun faded. Nobody even took the flowers out of the windows. They're dead. So we're just walking by there's like these intricate floral displays that have like sagged and are dying and the windows faded menu just like time stopped, you know, and they're not the only place but yeah, how how does volte reopen, you know, their seating is very compact. They don't have a ton of space. I mean, they do have an outdoor area, but as it stands, their menu doesn't seem suited for a carry out. They're going to do responsible distancing. They're going to cut down their seating. I mean, we're already at razor thin margins, right, especially in the finer dining establishment. Yes. How do you take out 50 to 65 70% of your seats still serve that kind of food. Like, I don't know how you do that?

I don't think I don't think you can because exactly, you said the margins are razor thin. And if we don't fill the restaurant and turn, turn tables, we're not going to make our rent. And I think that places like volte, oftentimes, they'll go into a small space like that, but the plan is, butts in seats, turning tables, maybe every 90, they'll make the rent. This is just too crazy of a pivot. And here's the other thing. And I don't know if you've got a thought on this having interviewed a bunch of chefs during this pandemic, does the social distancing even matter? So if I were 65, with heart trouble or asthma or some some respiratory issue, it would probably behoove me to stay at home and play it really safe. But what's the trade off? And I'm not I'm not going to flout the rules. When we get to open a restaurant, I'm not going to put my customers at danger. But I do wonder sometimes. Are we really able to do anything? Or is this thing just have to run its course? Sure, flatten the curve. We don't want to overwhelm the hospitals. But, you know, when we when we keep people six feet apart inside, but then outdoor dining seems to be a little bit more relaxed and casual. I don't think the virus cares whether you're outside or inside. Have you been able to gather in talking to all these chefs? How really worried they are about the virus if they have any larger philosophical thoughts on what our obligation is? Or even what the reality is not just as restaurant tours, but as humans? Has that come up?

Yeah, I mean, I think unfortunately, a lot of them are optimistic because of the business sense. You know, as I talk to people in general, to me, it seems like the people who have businesses who aren't generating revenue are ready to open you know, like, that's, that's what I'm hearing like, they're saying it's Kind of overblown. They're not now that they're not worried, but they feel like if they follow practices and can set some things in place, we're ready to go. On the flip side, I sent emails to every one of my existing customers and polled people on Facebook and I'm universally hearing from people. They are scared to go back out to restaurants. So I think it's very easy as an owner to say, yeah, I'm comfortable opening, here's our plan, here's what we're gonna do. But I think they really need to be talking to their customers. If you have a restaurant that has an email list, blast everyone and just very easily say, at the rate things are going when do you see coming back to a restaurant? And what are some things that you're expecting to see, you know, things like surf safe right now has free online courses for, you know, COVID policies, like I think everyone should go take those. And then you've at least got this thing and say, I'm doing the best I can. I went online, I took three courses on best practices for takeout delivery. And, you know, in restaurant sanitation, I think People are going to look for those kind of things. But I think you need to be reaching out directly to your customer base and saying, When are you foreseeably? Gonna put your butt back in a seat? Because that's what I did with my business. I said, When are you going to hire me to come back in your house? Some people told me August, at the earliest. That's what I heard from some people, they would not even have me in their house until August. And that's me one person coming in their house. When is that person going to feel comfortable going to a restaurant with 50 other people in there? I don't know. And I think you need to talk to your customers and find that out. And I don't know that enough. People are doing that. And then I think there's still so much we don't know. And I try not to read everything. But you hear these stories about the people in their 30s and 40s. Were having strokes that right is this causing, you know, so you think oh, it's all these old people and then you hear all these stories about this guy was 35 years old and had a stroke at home and then they found out it was something that got in and caused a blood clot in his brain and he died something on Facebook the other day about some kid and what was the headline like it felt like his veins were on fire like It's changing in different demographics. So I just don't think we know. I mean, we're dealing with something that's, like six months old. Like we don't know. It's all hypothesis. It's all best guess even the CDC said at the beginning, you don't need to wear a mask, it doesn't matter. And now that's there. Yeah. So it's learning on the fly and changing I think, you know, we're going to do the best we can to make guesses and hopefully educated guesses, but it's gonna be I think it's gonna be long.

I do think you hit on that it comes down, it's gonna come down to the perception of our customers. We don't know enough about the virus, but our customers comfort or fear is going to dictate what they do, ultimately is going to dictate what our revenue is, depending on what model we opened up with. I don't know I i guess i keeps coming back to that. It just shocks me how difficult it is to predict where all this is going. But I think on the positive side of it. We're so far into this restaurant project now. We have to open it somehow, some way. And that to me is actually a comfort because I don't know what the situation is going to be. But I know that I'm going to get to cook. So I'm looking forward to that, even if I don't seem to know anything else about what's going to happen.

How does your food translate to carry out? Like, are you thinking about that? I mean, I'm sure it's not ideal for a launch. But could you open doing take homes?

Yeah, I would. I would like to avoid that if I can, but it might not be possible. I'd rather people's first taste of us in the new spot, not be taken out. But reality being what it is. We do have a lot of people that already know us. In fact, we're going to Greenville because that's where we pulled a lot of our customers from Greenville, Raleigh, little north and south of here like Rocky Mount Goldsboro. We would see some people from Virginia in South Carolina, but I'm not against doing takeout. I think our menu would translate fine and i'm i'm pretty sure flexible and kind of back to the Add thing there was a while where I was changing my four cores preferred menu every two weeks. And that was a little crazy I went I went and stuck things for a month after that, but I'm fine if we need to if we need to make some changes as long as to me that as long as the food is executed as long as these dishes they do translate like you said not not a pile of foams and stuff that's going to steam or wilt on the way home But yeah, I think I think our stuff will will translate pretty well. And if it doesn't, then I'll change it.

I'm interested in places that are doing kind of make it at home you know, sending you with raw products. I don't know what the market is for that. But let's say you know, shrimp and grits you have access to better grits than probably most people at the grocery store and like high quality shrimp like what have you, you know, packaged it up and gave them a cup of grits and the recipe and whether it's cream or stock or whatever, and then the shrimp like I'm just thinking of that kind of Like people still have to cook but could you rather than making a dish and sending them home with it where it's gonna get cold and the grits are gonna get lumpy, you know, not necessarily for you but I'm just interested in places, basically doing like a Blue Apron but you're picking out a local restaurant instead of having it made over.

I will say for two years, we actually did home delivery of prepared food here. And we were the first in the state to get approved for reduced oxygen packaging. Because probably 75% of the meals that we sent home with people were vac sealed chamber vacuum sealed in for meal bags, and almost all of it was already cooked. They just needed to reheat it. And it could be as simple as dropping the bag in a pot of simmering water. Every once while we would do things in like foil containers like a family sized vegetarian lasagna that would go in the oven, but for the most part it was all ready to go. We would do some grocery stuff and sell like eggs from our own chickens or pork prices. From the farm down the road, but for the most part, our stuff was ready to go. And I think I would probably lean that direction. I think at the same time people are still wanting if they're patronizing place, I think they still want the chef's input and the chef's perspective and the chef's technique. And so I would probably try to give them stuff that they could either reheat or, or finished cooking. That was still something that that I had made or that I and my kitchen staff had made. So I think we can do them. And after two years of doing the home delivery stuff, I think we know a little bit about what what would work in that direction. And it's not a replacement for the dining in the restaurant and never will be. There's nothing like getting that perfectly grilled steak on the plate sending out to the dining room, the potatoes are hot, the mood, you've got music playing. You've got the atmosphere of your restaurant. There's no substitute for that. But I think if we had to do take out i think i think we would absolutely draw on the Home Delivery stuff. We did a couple years. So well, we'll do whatever it takes. But I am thirsting like everybody else's to get back to the dining in times that we had just a few short months ago.

How many seats ideally is your place gonna be?

It's gonna be about the same as we were here when we downsized, we'll have if you include the bar seats will be at about 5045 or 50. So we'll have two former bedrooms downstairs, it should see about 16 each in normal circumstances, and then we'll have eight seats at the bar. We are working on another bedroom upstairs, it could be a private dining for say a group of 10 or 12. Again, now I think we have to keep it 10 or 10 or fewer. But and we've got outside seating. So if I had a bigger than anticipated kitchen staff and we really wanted to serve lots of people, I think we could do maybe as many as 60. I think I'd rather keep it smaller. I think I'd like to be in the in the in the 40 range. I still like having the control over the dishes. I still like being able to spend that extra moment. With the plates and not be shoving everything into the past because you've got, you know, 75 butts in seats, and you know, there's gonna be a full maybe another turn and a half. I don't enjoy that. But I know we got to do what we got to do to pay the bills, but I think I'd like to keep it in the 4040 range, give or take.

Have you tried cooking in a mascot and cooking without tasting your food? Because that is the first challenge. We I talked about it a little before I went back to work, but it was put into practice this past Saturday, you know, cooking at somebody's house. I didn't do a lot of tasting. I mean, you know, if you're cooking dishes you've made before I think intuitively you have some idea. Again, going back to grant Achatz. I mean this guy had like no taste in his mouth for right from cancer and stuff. And a lot of it just comes back to knowing but that was super frustrating for me is you know, I'm making a quick pan sauce and it's like, you throw a pinch of salt and I'm hoping that it wasn't too much or that it wasn't too little and you're just kind of going with it. You know, with customers eating outside. I felt comfortable taking it off, but they were definitely people who wanted me they're wearing a mask. So it wasn't like they were like, Oh, no problem, just take off your mask whenever you want. So trying to be respectful of them, it's just kind of like learning how to taste and season your food when you're not trying it as often as you would.

But I'm gonna, I'm gonna assume let's just let's take you out of the at-home chef position and put you in a closed kitchen in a professional like in a full restaurant. Are you gonna wear the mask in the kitchen? I mean, we all see the pictures of masked chefs and cooks on social media. Are they really doing that? I understand that people can be asymptomatic and you could be spreading it. Granted, if you cough on a steak in the put on the grill, you're probably gonna kill whatever's on the outside. I'm not saying that's my starting point. But do we really think that all the people in the kitchens are wearing masks while they're cooking, especially in a closed kitchen? If there are even any open kitchens? Well, there aren't any of these days anyway. But what's going to be the practice moving forward, I get that if you Have a cough or symptoms, you probably shouldn't be at work anyway. But if you're asymptomatic and you're wearing your mask, what's the trade off? You're, maybe you're you're being safer, but maybe your food sucks. Now, what do you do?

That's a good question. But I mean, if we're saying that that is the best way to reduce it, and you can have no symptoms for two weeks and be spreading this, I mean, just look at something like the White House, how many people there have been like, I'm not wearing a mask. And then next thing, you know, everyone's starting to catch this thing. Like, if you have a cook who comes in and he's asymptomatic, and you're all in the kitchen, cooking for 12 hours a day, you know, for the first three days and he's got it and now you've all got it. And I think you know, even if you have a closed kitchen, there are chances that you're going to see customers I think cocoms are gonna want it. Yes, but that isn't interesting. I've had that conversation with some people. Some people have said, you know, when we're out in front of customers, we're wearing them but my cooks don't like wearing them back of the house.

I don't mind wearing them. I just For me when when people, when customers would ask like, Why? Why is your guys foods so good? I said, Well, two things. Well, maybe three. The first I'm lucky I get to spend all day cooking. I love that. And most home cooks don't have that luxury. And when you do that for 1020 years, you learn some things, but I've had the luxury of time in having this place in the places I've worked before. But also I say, always taste your food. If you don't do anything else taste it, you'll know immediately if it sucks. And that's going to be probably that might be the biggest concession if we need to cook with masks. I don't know. I mean, honestly, if someone said are you going to do that, if I have to, I will. But I have to find some workaround some tasting closet. Maybe I take this I take my little plastic spoon of sauce, and I run in the closet. And then I quick and I taste I don't know like I don't know. I'm not going to be very comfortable cooking if I can't taste the food. So I'm I'll have to figure something out. But We'll do what we have to do to keep customers safe.

Yeah, I agree. And I asked this question again on Facebook a couple weeks ago, and some people answered seriously, and some kind of like, jokingly, I'm like, No, I'm serious, because there's a lot of restaurants, especially in DC, like very fine dining restaurants that are still open. I know they have multiple people in the kitchen to execute this food they're doing I'm just curious, like, what are they doing there? If you're, you know, I'm not gonna call it a restaurants. But if you're one of these restaurants is still open and you have like six or seven cooks? Are you guys wearing them in the kitchen? And if so, what are you doing? And not everyone's talking about it? And because I think I going out on a limb, I'd say a lot of places, probably the cooks in the kitchen aren't wearing them, especially if they don't have customers coming in and they're just closed for takeout. I would agree on. So I don't think a lot of people want to go on record talking about that.

It's a major concession. I think most chefs tasting the food is you know, it's it's, it's such an important part of what we do because a lot of what we do comes from not just our imaginations but from our palates. I suck at a lot of things, but I can I'm usually a pretty good taster. Food. And that's gonna be best. That might be the biggest issue we have to remastering the kitchen. I don't know. I don't know.

I guess we'll all figure it out. And I think again, sharing best practices I as the thing evolves, I think staying in contact with chefs, I do a lot of kind of like zoom meetups with other chefs are just talking on social media and throwing these questions out there. I mean, there's no reason why you shouldn't just throw it out there and say, Hey, what do you guys do and just kind of see what everyone's into, like, I love reading. There's so many people, I think, way smarter than me, who have figured some of this out. And I'm following along to see what they're doing. And then just trying to share those things as much as I can. can do that.

Yeah, I don't know. Unprecedented times. No playbook. And it's crazy that the restaurant industry was, was one of the ones obviously hit the hardest, like, the first to be shut down along with, you know, concerts and gyms and places, but I don't know I don't. And I feel like we got to figure this out. Because I don't think this is gonna be the last time in our lifetimes that we see something like this? And we're going to need to we need to become experts at at safety measures and at pivoting between dine in and take it, I think,

yeah, I really missed the live music and I'm so glad I went to a show. It was like, the fifth or sixth of March. And even then things were getting sketchy. My wife said, Are you really going to go to the show in DC? I'm like, yeah, it's fine. Like, I'm really glad I went to that show, because I've had two shows this spring that have already been canceled one that's going to be rescheduled, I got my money back. And I'm looking, my son is going to be eight this summer. And for his birthday, I already got him tickets to a show and it's, I think it's like August 31. And I don't know like, even if it goes on, like, I don't know that we're going to go to this venue that has, I think it's going to sell out at like 7000 people or something like that like the anthem in DC or whatever, like huge venue. With people like, bumper to bumper. I don't know that we're going to go to that show. But I shouldn't have told them I got tickets. I was super excited and said early birthday present got us tickets now every day is like is that show still happening? I'm like I wish we didn't talk about that.

It's a lot of these unknowns. But I think, at the end of the day, I think the resourcefulness, the tenacity of the restaurant industry, most of the restaurants, not everyone's gonna make it. But I think what makes the great restaurants great. And a lot of the great chefs and great cooks great is probably what's going to get us through some of this. I think it's going to strip away some of the some of the restaurants that were on the edge, maybe some of the chefs and owners that weren't as serious as it could have been, or people that were on the fence. I know some restaurants back where I'm from in Denver. Some of them were looking at moving or rebranding and they've just they just shuttered they just closed completely. But I think there are a lot of restaurants. It's gonna be ugly for a little while, but I think a lot of the good places are going to come back because what made him good is that that dedication, the planning, the approach, the the love, have, you know, serving people, I think a lot of the important restaurants most of us I think will be back. So the nature of the industry I think gives me a little bit of hope.

Yeah, I was really sad to see Momofuku in DC closed. Yes. And the source closed. I mean, those were big things. And then David Chang closed another one of his places in New York and is like moving. Yeah, he closes Nishi which was like his Italian place that closed and then they moved SSam Bar into the space with one of the other restaurants I guess flows DC down. For me the same thing like doing a two person party isn't financially great for me like I make my money as I get into parties of eight and 10. So right now, you and your wife hire me because you're comfortable with that, but you're not having a dinner party. So how worth it is it for me to go do a dinner party for two and $100 ahead that's $200 before cost so let's back out 30% and costs and then the time of going shopping like it's it was never really worth it for me to do dinners for two. Yeah, so it's almost like not until we start getting back into the Six to 12 or six to 15, that it's going to be worth it financially and timewise for me to, like, so looking at how do I adapt? Or do I adapt? Or do I just take the time and put that energy into something else?

But like, you know, we've got these deadlines with the renovation commitments. Obviously, we were fully committed to the project before this hit, but I mean, it was it was too late. We passed the point of no return. So we've got to make some some judgment calls. But yeah, there's a good portion of our future that is dependent on this industry rallying and I do think it will, I mean, I people have to eat, people are going to be in the mood to eat. I think there's probably going to be a second wave with the virus. I think that people generally are probably going to just keep on moving forward. All the details, I'm not sure but I I still feel pretty good about our industry for most of the restaurants anyway. I think this is probably going to bring about some hopefully brings about some much needed changes to the industry i think that you know, restaurants that maybe aren't so ultra fine dining, we need to be focusing on I don't know more sustainable practices matter better pay for the workers. One thing I will say is that when we look at what we're doing with the with the future location of soco is one thing that's always been discussed is a livable wage living wage and benefits. I think it's something that is sorely lacking. And we talk a lot about mental health in our industry, you know, the past year or two, especially after losing some of the chefs and writers and restaurant tours, that we've got to take care of ourselves and we got to take care of our people. And I don't know, I don't think that minimum wage pay is ethical. And I don't think it's just the restaurant is driving. It's across the board at so many different places. It's just not sustainable. I know that people want cheap food and affordable food, and restaurant tours want more profit than outlay, but I think that the health of the industry is going to rely on on restaurants being able to put it A little bit more, invest a little bit more in themselves and in their employees. I know it's easier said than done. But it's at least for us and part of our plan for the entire time. So better pay in a better wage. And I think that if you if you do that, and I'm not going to necessarily say that karma is a thing, but I think that if you're, if you're ethically approaching your restaurant, if you're putting love into your food, if you're taking care of your employees and your guests, I think the universe when it can, will look out for you. And so I'm hoping that that'll that'll also get us through but I think I think our industry is going to have to examine how it takes care of itself and its employees and I think this fragile razor thin margin, not just financially but but emotionally or even metaphysically I think we're gonna have to examine all that.

Yeah, it'll be interesting. You know, the people who didn't treat their employees right before this and then depending on how they treat them as we're going through this, are you going to have employees are you the kind of boss who's going to get cooks back when this is all over? If you were is not the best to work for. And then, you know, you furlough all your employees. I think it goes around and there's some people who are going to be out of luck because the people are going to go find another job.

Yes, there's, if we get back to opening up, there'll be no shortage of employees looking for jobs, but they may not be looking back at the same places. I don't know. The same industry. True. Although I don't know what the hell else I would do if I couldn't cook a strip. I don't know, I probably paid to keep my clothes on.

I've never understood people and I've had cooks worked for me. And it's like, why like people who literally hated food, like they needed a job, but it could have been any job and I and I don't normally like to hire those people. But every once in a while you get one who's really good. They hate it. They hate cooking, they hate the lifestyle, but they're really good at it, but I'm always telling them like, oh, you're a great photographer, like you should probably go do that. Like, I know you need some money, but go do something that you really enjoy because this is a terrible industry to be in. If you hate it, it's Yeah, that curse, right?

This, this could have an effect on the restaurant industry kind of like Katrina did on New Orleans. How you saw such a huge number of people leaving and never returning? I don't know. We'll probably know in a few months, maybe about the time that this airs about the time that we get open, maybe. Hopefully we know something more. But yeah, it's, it's gonna be interesting to see what we find on the other side.

Yeah, and I want to have you back on the show. Once you're open. Like I've told everyone, you know, I love I loved having the show and talking to shots about their business that's been open and doing well and kind of like almost being like an ad for your business. And now all these people are coming on like, I don't know, I'm out of business. I'll let you know when it opens. So we're kind of kind of hopefully do like where are they now follow up in six months, a year from now once you get going, because I want to see, you know, what you ended up doing and how the restaurants going and and what you've learned from it. And you know, what came to pass from our discussion or was it all nonsense and you're nowhere near where we thought? We're going But you know, I think it'll be interesting.

I got to follow my heart and I love being in the kitchen. And that's, that's about all I've got. I'm hoping that leads us to a good place. But I'll be more than glad to tell you what things went well and where we fell on our faces. Hopefully that's minimal part of it. We'll see.

Well, thanks so much. I've enjoyed having you. For all of our listeners. This was the Chefs Without Restaurants podcast, as always, you can find us at chefswithoutrestaurants.com and .org, and on all social media platforms. And if you are not aware, we have a Facebook group, and right now we're having a lot of these discussions there. So if you're a chef, and you want to follow all the chefs and what they're doing, and get links to all these articles and resources, come and join, and I'll approve you. Have a great week, everyone. Transcribed by https://otter.ai