Pastry Chef and Author Lisa Donovan Talks About Writing Her Memoir, the Restaurant Industry and Chess Pie

Welcome to the Chefs Without Restaurants podcast. I'm your host Chris Spear. On the show. I have conversations with culinary entrepreneurs and people in the food and beverage industry who took a different route. They're caterers, research chefs, personal chefs, cookbook authors, food truckers, farmers, cottage bakers, and all sorts of culinary renegades. I myself fall into the personal chef category as I started my own personal chef business perfect little bites 10 years ago. And while I started working in kitchens in the early 90s, I've literally never worked in a restaurant unless you count Burger King. Before we get to today's episode, I want to let everyone know that I recently launched a Patreon. So now you can support the show and the Chefs Without Restaurants organization. You can find the link in the show notes or at patreon.com/ChefsWithoutRestaurants. I think there's some great rewards with more to come. If you have a minute, please check out the video that I uploaded to the site. And I'll answer a lot of your questions. I really want to continue with this podcast. And this would help me continue to bring you awesome conversations every week. And I'd like to take this time to thank my first two supporters chef Justin Khanna and Matt Collins, Justin and I recorded an episode a few months ago, which I broke into two episodes actually. And then I sat down with Matt not too long ago, and his episode should be coming out next month. So thanks guys for the support. On this week's show, I speak with Lisa Donovan. She's a pastry chef and James Beard award winning writer. She's held the pastry kitchens of some of the most important restaurants in the country, including husk in Nashville, and has kept her whole life afloat by making writing on and thinking about food, including consulting, recipe development, selling pies out of the trunk of her car, and creating the now retired buttermilk road Sunday suppers. While Lisa is a pastry chef, this isn't really a discussion about kitchens, though we do touch on that. She writes full time now. And her first book, Our Lady of Perpetual hunger was released in August 2020. Most of our discussion revolves around the process of and decision to write her memoir, and everything that came along with that. We discussed the current state of the restaurant industry, getting comfortable with your audience, even when it's not who you expected it to be. And I get to talk to her about chess pie. I recommend you check out her book, because it's such a great read. And I really hope you enjoy this episode. So thank you all for listening, and have a great week. Hey, Lisa, welcome to the show. Thanks so much for coming on.

I'm so happy to be here. Thanks for having me.

I'm excited to talk to you and hear so much about your story. I did read your book, but uh, you know, maybe we'll find some gems that weren't in there.

I would love that. I would love that. There is plenty that didn't make the cut.

I can't imagine how much work it is writing a book. Like, I don't know, I like the longest thing I write are blogs that are you know, a couple 100 words. But

it's a good exercise in perseverance, which is never a bad thing to have to sort of face yourself with. And it also I think if you, you know, if you feel a commitment to writing, it's a really good opportunity to, to dig deeper than 3000 to 5000 words will typically let you you know, and to also get Messier. You know, I think I struggle a little bit with perfectionism and I am in no way shape or form there yet with writing. And so there was a lot of these moments, you know, as a pastry chef, I had time and privacy in the kitchen to test things and to really, you know, lean on technical prowess to sort of make things what I wanted. And with writing, you have to allow a lot of a lot of personal messiness that I am not necessarily inclined to do on a normal day to day basis. I, I don't think I'm like an emotionally controlled person. That's not what I mean. But I think I've tried to keep myself squared away, and in certain boxes in the writing doesn't allow that. So in that way, it's hard in that way, especially in the more writing, I am looking forward to doing some work that is a little less, you know, emotional spelunking.

Yeah, the podcast was the same for me, you know, I'm someone who was pretty reserved, like, and I just found that the more I've gotten into it, the more I feel comfortable sharing my story, you know, nothing super traumatic. But, you know, I've had some really not great work experiences. And for so long, you know, you're taught like, you don't talk about that, like, there's no way you'd go out and talk about your former employer, what if you need a job? And, you know, just like, and holding that in, it's like, well, someone's gonna benefit from hearing my story, you know, I was having anxiety attacks and physical ailment, ailments, like related to stress that was all work induced. But for so long, I felt like, I can't, I can't say that, like, I can't talk about where I worked. I can't tell anyone this and now it's like, I have nothing to lose from that. Like, I'm never looking to go back and work a corporate job again. And I'm just like, not being true to myself by not telling these stories.

Yeah, well, and I think, you know, you and I were just talking about being of a certain generation. And I think for me, you know, I struggled with jumping headlong into those kinds of narratives, because I never wanted to be identified with struggle, you know, with my own struggles, and my I, my husband will tell you, you know, an insufferable isolationist, when it comes to my problems, I really, I really don't like to talk about the things that are happening, because I'm too busy trying to problem solve them in the moment that I just sort of feel like, What's the good of talking about and I'm trying to actually be effective in my work to solve the problem. And at some point, I realized I was generating a real level of self delusion, you know, of like, you know, you're actually not just not talking about it, you're kind of pretending that these things don't exist and trying to circumnavigate some things. And so, there were these moments where I was trying to preserve the work in the station, I had sure we all want to sort of, you know, protect the hard work we've done. But at some point, I also realized, this isn't actually serving me the way I feel like it is I'm not toughing it out. It's getting stored somewhere. And I'm still thinking about it. I lay awake at night thinking about these things, and how it could have gone or should have gone or the things that could have been better, or what could I have done and you know, taking all of the responsibility for things that just simply, you know, were untenable, and the culture around us. And so I think that's when I started to sort of feel like, Well, shit, I know, I'm not the only person feelings. And, you know, people started, the culture started to change, we started to get more comfortable talking about these things. And there became an opportunity to say some things that I felt like I don't have to carry this around and feel like I'm not performing well enough, or meeting some challenge, because the challenge actually is for me to swallow a pretty bitter pill. And I don't think that's a challenge worth rising to, and, and then they're just, you know, career aside, there were things I did sort of want to this book for me was more about addressing things as a woman than it ever was as addressing it as a chef or a cook or someone that has had a career in restaurants or whole adult life. I really felt strongly about trying to have a conversation that was more about the decisions I have made. And also the decisions I feel like I've had to make in the face of a lot of things. And so in that way, I really was making a conscious decision to I don't have a problem holding people accountable. But really what I wanted to do was to find moments of reflection for myself and why I chose to make the decisions I made and hold myself accountable and figure out why I felt the urge or the impulse or the pressure or whatever and and to take it apart sort of from that I'm I'm a real big problem solver. And I don't like to just talk about it. Feeling shitty or shitty things I like to figure out why and to a really exhaustive point sometimes. And so, for me, that actually went more back to my upbringing. And so that's where my, my family comes in. And all of these things that I had to reckon with honestly about how I was conditioned, just by my upbringing that I was no longer willing to tolerate. So that was more important to me to sort of address it was less about he did this to me, or that person, you know, made me feel this way. It was more like, Well, why was I in that position? to begin with? And why did I not have the strength or the voice at you know, 27, to, you know, outside of just youth and in maturity, there was something inside of me that was telling me that was right, and I was wrong. So what is that? Where does that voice come from? And I really wanted to take that apart more than I was interested, and, you know, accusing anybody of anything, because you could do that all day. You know, I wanted to find the power to take apart the conditioning in me, because then I can actually live my life going forward the way I I feel strongly about the way I know that feels right.

So what was the point at which you decided, I'm going to write this book?

You know, it's interesting, I don't, I think I, I had felt really comfortable with. I was really excited about having a career in baking and in pastry, because it was something I was really passionate about. And I'm also a strategist and a pragmatist. And I saw very clearly from the beginning, that food would not get in the way of me wanting to be a writer, there were a lot of career paths that were going to take me from writing that I could have, you know, arts administration, working in you, you know, there was, there were a lot of things that I just knew right away, we're going to take something from me, and not really lined me up to write the way, I always felt like I wanted to be able to write. So the book was not just a, it's in the moment, this is going to happen. My whole adult life was putting pieces together to be able to write books and to be able to write, at one point, hopefully, as a career, that was intentional. Did I think it was going to be a book of this kind of personal magnitude? Absolutely not did I think I would always write from a very personal place. Yes, that is, no matter how hard I try to rage against it, that is where my writing comes from, it comes from this very emotional place, it comes from a very private place, it comes from a very sometimes confrontational place with myself, you know, I'm I feel like, my goal when I'm writing is to do something or to figure something out or to sort of state an understanding that I've come to. So the book, you know, I had written the food mine article, which is what I wanted the James Beard award for that article was an email I wrote to a dear friend, you know, I, these are, I am constantly processing the world through writing, and I just don't share 99% of it. Because it's it, a lot of it is sort of this potential potentially overwrought, you know, writing, like my person, but sometimes I get so angry, I need to share it with another human so that I can feel like I'm not just, you know, sitting here bathing in my own, you know, whatever, like my amount of emotional juices were just, you know, it can get really murky sometimes. And I sent it to a friend who was directly associated with the situation, you know, in New Orleans, and I just, I got to say this out loud to someone and that's sort of how that she sent it to Kat kinsman. And that's how that piece got published eventually. And so dominoes started falling a little bit. And there was an opportunity. You know, I've had a literary agent for about seven years. And, you know, we've worked on ideas and I made my intentions really clear to him about what I wanted my writing career to be. And so I was really paint playing a very long game with with my writing career of, you know, I'm raising these two young kids, I'm working in a restaurant, I'm trying to just keep my lights on. I'm trying to sort of just survive. There wasn't actually a lot of time for professional style writing, I was writing, but there wasn't a lot of time for me to hone that craft. We're at all. But I have a had a good agent for nearly a decade now. And he has been really committed to my writing and my work and, and he, I think is sort of this. He's a real linchpin for me like he's a real like, you know, tethered to what my potential is as a writer. And so he's never let me write a book that would sort of just be like a few bills to pay. And here's a one off baking book, Lee. So you can write more than that, like, not that there's anything wrong with a one off baking book. But as we were talking about earlier, I've never had a restaurant, I've never owned my own bakery, you know, so. So attaching me to a place has always been hard for publishers to conceptualize. And it's a much harder obstacle as a baker pastry chef who doesn't own her own bakery to publish a book, you know, it just is. And so the things that we were trying to sort of cultivate for cookbooks just never felt right. And I started just, you know, continuing to write essays, he would see my writing frequently in my pitches and making this very long, but the mechanics of how this book came to be, we're less, you know, a heat of a moment kind of thing. You know, like, there was an article that came out in the Washington Post that Charlotte druckmann wrote last year, that really, I understood her overall point of, you know, there was, you know, a great many white women chef's published a bunch of memoirs last year, but it wasn't that it wasn't like, I got thrown this book deal, because the publishers, you know, whatever, I've been working my whole life to be able to write books. And the thing that was even more sort of disappointing about that is Charlotte knows that, you know, Charlotte No, is like I used to call her when I was a pastry chef going, Okay, I just am about to quit my job, how do I make sure that I can pay my bills, writing, and so she, like, has heard me struggle for this career for a very long time. So it wasn't a flash in the pan, it wasn't, you know, maybe it was the publishing world, finding a moment. And if that's what she was speaking to, that's fine. But for me, this is this is a, this has been everything I've been working towards, and did I think it was going to be this sort of personal treaties of my entire family? Well, no, like, I had no idea but the moment was ripe for that. And, and, and if I truly believe if you're going to go down a path of trying to sort of take apart your trajectory, as a woman in this world, you have to do it with great honesty. And that's what happened. And I couldn't go into this, with a soft touch it, it really became a moment and an opportunity to speak to something that I have been truly as just a human, not as a writer, digesting and taking apart and trying to process my whole life. So

I can't imagine writing a book like this and exposing yourself to the world in this kind of way. It must have been, I mean, was it really challenging to kind of relive all that stuff? And then also put it into words for the world to?

Yeah. Yeah, no, there's like, yes, is the whole answer to that. And, and I think you do have to sort of forget that. The world is gonna read it while you're doing it, I really do think I closed myself off to understanding that this was, should be read by anyone. Otherwise, I don't know that it could have come out the way it needed to come out.

And I guess for anyone listening who hasn't read the book, you know, it's your life story. And so much of it is rooted around food and cooking. But I mean, there's also very personal parts about, you know, sexual assault and having an abortion and all kinds of things. That, again, I couldn't even imagine sharing anything that personal about myself with the whole world. So I think you're super brave for having put that out there. Was there any time that you were worried about backlash, whether it be like professional from people in the industry, or just like family who didn't want all this stuff coming out? Did you did you worry about that?

hindsight, I can tell you, I should have worried more. I shouldn't have worried more. Again, I think it kind of goes back to when you are engaging in a process like that. You almost can't think about it. I tried to include my mom as much as I could, especially when I was writing about her mother. Because that was so much of the lineage I was trying to sort of take apart and put back together and I felt like I was including her and what the potential of this story was going to be. Of course, like hindsight is you Very clear, I really wish I would have known that. Even though my intention and I do think the outcome of this was basically a love letter to my mother, and her mother, and a reclamation of them and an honoring of them, that, you know, that was the work I was doing every single day I was sitting down and trying to honor the women that have made an impact in my life. And they were the two that were really important for me to be honest about, because I feel like women go through this world sort of obfuscating the complexities of each other so often, and I really wanted to get down to their nuts and bolts, because, you know, we never get to do that as when he, regardless of my intentions, I think I really wish that I could have predicted how exposed she would feel, you know, there's something inside of me, that actually doesn't feel I do feel exposed, but I feel exposed for my people more than I feel exposed for myself. I think I'm tired of shame. You know, I think I'm so tired of shame, being such a prominent feature that I, I kind of feel this freedom from it now that I just, you know, it's part of my evolution as a woman is to say, that shame anymore, I just don't want it. And that that, you know, is not something my mother has, you know, and I just wish that I could have predicted how hard that would have been for her. I will say, you know, we had a sticky couple of months. But I can tell you that we've always had a lovely relationship with bumps, you know, I think any mother and daughter, especially my generation and her generation, we are, we seem to have similar conversations. As women, you know, me and my friends talk about our mothers very similarly. And I feel like my mom and her friends probably talk about their daughters, very similarly, there's a very huge chasm of misunderstanding between that generation of women and my generation of women huge, deep, wide, very deep and wide. And we have always played our roles to each other. But we've never had the depth of connectivity that I think we've had over the last couple of months since this book has come out since we went over that mountain. And together, we had to have some hard talks. And so in that way, that is exactly the intention of the book was, you know, I've done a lot of book clubs, and I can't tell you, you know, for all of the disasters, the this path of publishing a book in 2020, what I can tell you is, it is provided an opportunity to join in on a lot of small and larger book clubs, where it's just women on a private zoom. Sometimes it's six women, sometimes it's 30 women, and I don't think there has there's maybe been one or two, but the majority of these book clubs, older women, my mother's age have brought their daughters my age. And they are sharing this book together, and they're going they're having conversations that to me has been everything is is creating a place where mothers and daughters and women in general are getting to have some harder conversations with each other about what these relationships are between us, because they're not simple. And I they don't they shouldn't be simple, but we have to understand what they are and what they're made of.

How did you go about marketing the book, like when you were putting it out there wasn't marketed towards women of a certain age mothers daughters, because you know, it did kind of get thrown in with like, food, writing books, but it's not really like I think the casual chef who reads food books, it's probably not necessarily for them.

Right? It's it? It was tricky, for sure. To be sure. I mean, penguin press I think did their best to sort of find the space you know, but it's like a Chefs Without Restaurants, you know, there aren't a I think I'm just perpetually going to always be in purgatory of of branding, for lack of better word like I and I'm pretty comfortable with that. But it does make it harder. You know, I think penguin press really wanted to, you know, and not as a as a fault. Like, I think they really, really rested on my career as a pastry chef and my alignment with other well known chefs and that was smart, but it did sort of minimize the pros, I think and the how much I wanted it to be in right space. But I don't I don't exist in that space yet, you know, so we had to really do this kind of, I think they did a beautiful job of sort of trying to find the balance I, you know, I can't this is how they, they were the marketers, I was not, I didn't hire an outside PR person, I have really felt very lucky and comfortable with the way that penguin press has wanted to go about this. And I trust them as a publishing house. And so, you know, we suffered a lot of unfortunate hiccups, because of what last year was. But I you know, and I promise I'm not just trying to be a Pollyanna or Polish a turd, like, I really do think that, you know, there were obvious disappointments, you know, in publishing is truly a bandwidth issue. You know, if you know, Dave Chang's book, for instance, was supposed to come out in the spring, and everything got pushed. And so these big names all of a sudden got sort of piled on to this moment, when first time authors usually have a nice little breath, to say, like, Oh, I'm gonna be Terry Gross is calling and done about, well, then all of a sudden, everything sort of gets pushed. And you know, you can't, it truly just becomes a bandwidth issue, you know, there's not enough space. And I've been so fortunate, because, you know, Dave was such a huge advocate for my book, and he used so much of his space to talk about my book. And that was a really beautiful thing, because it wasn't even out of obligation or, you know, pity it was he really got something out of the book. And I think I was such a great benefactor of other people's generosity, penguin press did a great job of setting me up. And then these relationships that I've had and been building for several years have really came through for me, and people really talked about it. And that made a huge difference. In fact, it's, it's been the only, you know, this book has been primarily word of mouth, and it is starting to sort of get outside of the chef space. So I don't mind being in the chef space, I would love to continue writing about food and, you know, food narrative, and those kind of activities about, you know, where people find themselves in the food culture is really important to me as a person. But I also, obviously have a lot to say about our culture and women and my experience as a woman and, and sort of having some harder conversations for like, you know, I've got a 16 year old daughter, and hopefully, we're clearing out some of the, the brush in and out so that they can walk a little more freely.

And I feel from the culinary standpoint, the book was it made me sad, and not because it because it was so true, you know, the, it's a look at the restaurant industry, we're starting to tell these stories now. Right? Like, it's, there's been so much problematic behavior for so long, but that wasn't anything I was aware of, when I got into it, you know, I gotten a food because I wanted to be a chef and I went to culinary school, and you know, 94 to 98. And at the time, nobody said, you're going to work in this place, and your boss is probably going to be an asshole, and like, they're gonna want to exploit you, and they're gonna want to do this. And that, like, I just wanted to cook and make good food. And I think at least now, kids maybe have a better idea of what they're getting into. But just kind of like reading and it was just, you know, the first chunk of your book was a very quick kind of summary about like, this is what I encountered. And it seems to be the story of almost everyone, but especially women, I'm sure and the kitchen and people of color. But it's just, it's not a great place to work. And I find that so sad, but this is what I wanted to dedicate like my life to doing. And now, you know, I couldn't work in a professional kitchen anymore. It's what I you know, I came to the realization thing.

You know, I, I think it's always great to talk about the hope in a moment, even whenever, you know, I have so many of my friends who are struggling and I don't believe in toxic positivity. That's not where I'm going with this. Like, there are some really hard things happening in the restaurant world with people who I do believe are doing it correctly and trying to build the best of our industry. You know, I fear we're gonna lose a lot of those really good solid chef owned restaurants because the world is not prepared to understand how the changes might need to happen for them to survive. But, you know, I was really fortunate to there's a really incredible High School, culinary High School in New York that I was asked to speak to, and I think it's been one of the I think most important experiences since this book came out was to talk to a bunch of 1718 year olds who are about to graduate from this culinary high school who have built, you know, have planned at that age, can you imagine being at that age and and seeing the restaurant industry just fall in on itself, after all of this reckoning has happened about, you know, the exploitation that already lives within it, and all of the people that are taking advantage of the investors that are really taking advantage of the culture that pre existed them. And so it was a really good opportunity for me to say to them that, you know, look, this is the first time I don't want to overuse this metaphor, because I've told this story before, but I think it's really true. Like, this is the first time the plane has ever been grounded. You know, you guys, actually because they were very devastated. They were like, do we go get different careers? Do we, you know, is there any career to have in the restaurant industry at this point. And what I actually think is that we, the positive thing is, we have built a culture, that people want to be a part of that they value that they they care about, they understand how important chefs and cooks and the restaurant industry is to our our world, our country, our interactions, our society. That is become something that I think we can be very proud of. I think what this moment can demand of these young kids coming up is they actually have an opportunity that neither you nor I had, which was to fix the plane while it's in the shed, you know, like, we were trying to fix it while we were flying the Gundam thing, and you can't get it right, you know, when you're trying to keep it from plummeting to the earth, right? And now there's this moment where we can all look at it, take it apart, say what has to happen, what has to change can at work, what what, you know, policy in our country needs to change for small businesses with these kinds of margins to survive, you know, how do we support our workers better from me? Yes, of course, there's a gender and a race issue. And, and restaurant culture that is a board. But this is a workers rights issue. This is, you know, cross cultural, cross gendered issue of, you know, worker exploitation. And we really have an opportunity now, for, you know, every chef that I'm very good friends with, that owns a restaurant is not trying to exploit their workers, they truly are looking at the numbers and trying to make it work. So what is the problem over the over their head? You know, how do we, yes, we need to address all of the systemic issues that that exists culturally. But for me that, you know, so much of it comes from this inability for us to actually run these businesses in this country, with any feasibility, you know, and that's where the see these rich, and so it just becomes this thing, where it's like, then these rich investors sniff that out and start to see an opera. So it becomes sort of this bigger picture thing for me. And I do believe in individual responsibilities when we're talking about cultural disparities. And for the restaurant industry, I think we have a real opportunity right now to sort of figure out how the infrastructure can work better for the workers.

And now I'm starting to see some of these things creep into the personal chef space, because for so many years, being a personal chef, and a caterer was like, you go out on your own, but now there's all these people in, you know, their big money and tech and investors, and they build the platforms. And they come and say, like, Oh, well, it's so easy to be a personal chef, you don't have to worry about any of the business stuff, you know, come on my platform, and then, you know, they're taking a big cut, and they're, you know, it's like you there's the big trade off and running a business is tough. But now I see, like, so many of us got out of a restaurant to do our own thing. And now everyone's kind of invading this space. You know, like, I don't think ghost kitchens are a bad thing in general. But you're seeing a lot of these big companies start them, where they're then you know, bringing kind of those bad practices of restaurants into a new venue. And I'm just kind of afraid that we're just going to see this cycle where it's like, oh, well, let's now prey on these people.

Yeah, well, I think that's why, you know, we do just, for me, it's, I feel very lucky and privileged because the older I get, the more I find myself in a position to sort of think a little bit less in the throes of it all and and really think about local political engagement and really figuring out how to maximize the opportunities in your community to create a culture that supports this not just because your guests support it, but because your actual local civics is supporting this and then of course, we have to think about federal government and federal implications in federal regulations, and we have to get people health care. And that can't be tied to our jobs. And there's, you know, they're all of these things where we just have to decide who we are as Americans. And that's a very big sort of like, Okay, well, shit. But I feel like that restaurants are the canary in the coal mine for a lot of real problems that our country is facing. And we have been struggling with it for a long time, which is why I think we're on the front lines of these conversations. And we have been for a long time.

And have you hung up your apron for good now, like, professionally? Do you? Do you foresee any time where you're going to want to dip your toe back in at least?

I think about it every day. I don't know what that means. I've learned I've, I don't know much. But I know at 43 years old that I never say never. I know I will never work. Well, again, never say never. I you know, who knows? Who knows. I don't foresee ever working in someone else's kitchen ever again. I will perpetually dream of having my own space one day, and it being you know, all of the expressions of love that I have blah, blah, blah, you know, like, I don't, you know, at risk of being a chef with a vanity project. You know, like, I would love to find myself cooking for people. That's what I am made of I I miss it greatly. You know, I've missed menu planning, I miss I was talking to a good friend of mine who's a chef in New York, Alex Reich, and she's working on a project. And she was like, yeah, I'm working on the menu. I was like, we should please just send me the menu. And I'm I, you know, I gave my all and put everything I had into this book. And I'm still putting everything I have into writing. And that was my intention all along. And I feel so lucky and grateful and thankful. But there is definitely this part of me that is, will always want that. And I don't know what that means in the greater scheme of things. But I would love to find a way to cook for people again, sure.

Love to say thanks for introducing me to chess pie. As a northerner I grew up in the Boston area, it's never anything I had encountered. And now I'm down in Maryland, which is the somewhat South depending on who you ask, but I'm sure that's one of those things you hear all the time that you've become known for, right? I mean, I, I've seen seem to see four versions or so on the Internet of, you know, a chess pie by you. And

I fell in love with chess pie became like something I, I really, I'm trying to remember the first time I think the first time I ever made a chess pie was at Margo cafe. And whenever I was her pastry chef, and maybe it was when I was a server, and I had she was she she had, she had her thing on lock, you know, she would have she had like a folder of desserts. And you were, by the time I came to on to be her pastry chef, she gave me a lot of birth, you know, she gave me a wide berth to sort of like, you know, explore and try some things. But ultimately, she keeps a very tight rein on like, what kinds of things at least when I was there, way back in the day, and I see her she's got an incredible Chef de Cuisine right now. But He's incredible. And he got he plays around quite a lot in the kitchen. And when I was her, I think I saw chess pie when I was a server there, and then when I came back, I started to revisit it. And she did have a recipe for buttermilk chess pie. And I that was where I made it. And that was kind of one of the first times I made it. And it was great. It's a lovely chess pie. But I wanted something more. And that was sort of where I started playing with chess pie recipe and looking at Old Church cookbooks and sort of finding, you know, other chess pie recipes and playing around and figuring out my ratios. And by the time I got to husk I had several years of doing buttermilk road, which was my pop up supper club, and I really really got super invested in just trying to make that super perfect making my pie dough really perfect was really something I got super nerdy about and yeah, and then by the time I got to ask, man, I do feel like I nailed it. I feel like that just the butter mount chest by husk was was definitely like a glory thing for me. I was like I got so excited. And it was you know, I think one of the most beautiful things about that chess by the buttermilk chess pie is I could hand it to young cooks who weren't seasoned young bakers who weren't seasoned I could give it to a savory line cook who was just working on my j and they could nail it. Yeah, they could nail it. And it, it was a confidence builder. And it was easily taught and it was easily communicated. And it was, it was it really was a it was a beautiful thing.

Yeah, I've taken that recipe and I've made it for my customers because I you know, I wasn't trained in pastry at all. But you know, as a personal chef, I make all my own desserts and like, so I had to find things that I knew would work that were not too hard for me, you know, I'm not doing anything with like 10 components on the plate. So it's like, what are a few things I can really nail so I practice making those and man it's a it's a delicious pie and I've, I've made some tweaks, I like to do one with like heavily orange zest in it. And then I make like carmelized white chocolate sash, one peppercorn ganache, for just like a little drizzle. Not that the pie needs any more sugar, but it does give it like a little something different than I do like a spiced candied, like fried peanuts. So that's one one of my versions.

That sounds really nice. You know, my favorite version of that pie. I'll do at Christmas time and I pull out the lemon. I still do a little lemon juice just to help buoy the buttermilk a little bit, but I pulled out the lemon zest, and in place of it, I just put a shit ton of nutmeg. And then I pour just a little bit of bourbon around or something and it makes like the best like, egg Nagi tasting pie ever.

Sounds amazing. I love eggnog. I make eggnog in the summer and people think it's disgusting and like you drink milkshakes in the summer. How's that any different?

No, I guess so.

I never made the correlation like a 90 degree day just like a big old cold eggnog. Nothing wrong with that. Yeah, I

suppose although it just it kind of sets me on my heels a little bit. like wow, that's intense. I think it's the eggs that I don't want. It's not the cream. I might beg to differ because there's so much egg and an eggnog that's different than a lady. It's not depending on that. I mean, if you're having

Yeah, I mean isn't like ice cream like an ice cream has eggs and ice cream has cream and you know,

I think you're right. I think you're right. Damn it. I have to think that through a little bit better.

Summer egg summer eggnogs Let's make them happen.

Bushwacker

Yeah, I'm down. You know what, I love a Bushwacker I love nothing more than sitting on a Pensacola beach and drinking a trashy Bushwacker at a bar. So good. So I was like to ask who's someone in the food industry that you love that

you don't think gets enough attention? Oh, gosh. Um,

I'm always quick to say Erica Council in Atlanta, she makes some of the most beautiful biscuits ever. And I've just always I'm just such a fan of her as a human. She's like, man, she's just this big. She's building this business down there of like, I swear to God, like, I always thought I made pretty decent biscuits. And I've been told I make really good biscuits, but I'm gonna tell you something. you've not had a biscuit. And I mean, just looking at a picture of her biscuits. You're like what is happening? And she does, she does both kinds. I feel like she makes these really beautiful buttermilk biscuits that are really traditionally Southern. And then she's also perfected this angel flake biscuit that I'm obsessed with. I've never eaten it. But I've seen pictures of it. And it looks like and I mean this as a compliment. It looks like those like pop Pillsbury ones that have those unreal, totally factory fabricated flakes. And um, you know,

yeah,

she produces these be they're just stunning. And I love that. You know, she comes from this like, long line of like family food people in Georgia. And she's a mother and she's a wife and she's just out there building this business and she's been doing it slow and steady with and with integrity. And I just think she's tops and I just think as a person, I value her so much. She's probably tired of me talking about her on podcast, but I just I think that she's the greatest. One of the greatest Southern bakers out there. Well, I don't know anything about her. So I appreciate you sharing that. Yeah, check her out. She's She's got bomb biscuit in Atlanta, Georgia. And she is they are they are bomb biscuits man doing that. And I think she's starting I know she started to do delivery last year. And I think she's starting to do shipment. So if you're like on a national scale, I should have looked it up before we talked but I think she might be on her way if she hasn't already to some national shipment and I'm really pulling for it because that's what the world deserves. It's amazing how many people have figured that out these days like during the COVID times so many more people have figured a way to ship their products. I Love it. Me too. Me too. I really enjoyed seeing, you know, Nashville has had a really great turn of people just being, you know, making these cottage industry, you know, bootstrapped businesses that have just taken off, you know, I mean, there's a gentleman in Nashville making some of the most beautiful mixed analyzed corn tortillas and you can buy his masa and you can he mix, tamales, and he's gonna talk and I mean, he's just killing it. And his product is so amazing. And so it has so much integrity, and he was working, he's been working in Nashville for DOD, I mean, you know, for over for a while for a decade, I've known of him. And he he's been, you know, he's been the chef at different restaurants here and there. And they would like give him a once a month taco night to have and display his like, super skills. And then he'd go back to being a chef at, you know, a fine restaurant, but like his work wasn't prominent, like he wasn't doing this. And then also he was, and I'm so grateful that like, though the however tragic this past year has been these little moments of people, finding their space has been really beautiful to watch. Yeah, I love it. I mean, not quite as many as those who've lost some businesses in the restaurant industry. But there are a lot of cool things popping up like this. So I have a lot of hope, saying same. You know, it is it has been tragic and hard to see the toll this has taken on a lot of some of my very closest friends and some people that I just admire and respect a lot from far away. And it's been brutal, and it's still brutal to watch. You know how hard this has been? So, yeah, but I I'm trying to stay in the zone of hope and keeping the truth real, but also finding the moments to celebrate. Absolutely. Hey, can you recommend a book could be a cookbook or a non cooking book? Or, I mean, right now, I'm obsessed. You know, George Saunders pops his head up out of like, you know, he gets it goes into his working hole, and, you know, forget the magnitude of him for just a moment. And then he pops up and you're like, George Saunders, and he just came out with a book. I want to get it right, hold on, let me grab it, because it's a beautiful title. And I don't want to muck it up. It's called a swim in a pond in the rain. I think it's one of the most he just, you know, he wrote Lincoln in the Bardo, probably about five years ago, maybe that's longer ago, but maybe around five or six years ago. And it's a magnificent piece of work that like if if you're looking for something to just sink into the audio book of it, beautifully performed. But he's just one of my favorite writers. He's a beautiful short story writer. And he also teaches Russian literature. And so this book is taking apart, I think four or six, I can't remember, I'm only halfway through it. Really important pieces of Russian literature. And then he like steps back after each page. And he basically it's the, the course, which sounds rote and terrible, maybe if you're not into that kind of thing. But he is infusing it with all of these sorts of understandings about human nature and inner connectivities. And it's, it's basically a conversation about, I don't know, just human beings, and he's doing it through the lens of literature. It's beautiful. It's a beautiful book. He's, I think one of the most important voices out there right now in his, you know, he's, he's very much a scholar of like Buddhism, and I'm, you know, starting to sort of seek out some things as I'm approaching middle age that help me navigate some things in his voice is a really seminal, and what I hope to accomplish with my own person, which is a sense of retaining that sense of all, while also being a pragmatist who likes to solve problems, which gets harder as you get older. So he's, you know, this is a really great example of that. Oh, and I also just read the practice by Seth Godin, who's one of my favorites. Do you know Seth Godin,

like I'd seen,

he's written like 27 books, one of the things he's well known for is he's written a blog post every day for something like 20 years, like as long as the internet's been around, but it's it's around business and creativity. So the practice is about shipping your work, like getting the work done. And he writes a lot about, you know, like, people who are creative and create things and the idea that like, you know, identifying that you make things for certain person and being okay with like that. They're not For everyone, you know, his slogan is like, I make this for people like this. You are not people like this. And that's okay. Yeah. It's like I tell my kids, you know, of course, like, both of my kids in their teenage years, and the social media era, like, struggled with, I think, you know, feeling like everyone had to be their friend. And I'm like, no, it's that's actually, if everyone is like that, that doesn't work. Like the fact that you have two or three really good friends is actually a strength is actually a really good thing. And I think it's interesting that you bring that up, because it's so much of like, before the pandemic hit my, my thinking about who this book was going to potentially reach was far broader than it actually ended up being. And there has been so much beauty in sort of recognizing that like, this is, these are the people that needed to hear this, I wasn't really anticipating so much open dialogue with women, my mother's age, like I really wasn't, and there was kind of a moment where I was like, have I done? I mean, if I'm being really Frank Brown, like, No, nobody, my age seems to be getting anything out of like, you know, like having these moments of like, did I reach the audience I meant to reach well, doesn't matter. Like that is the audience that really is this is resonating with, and it's starting to bleed into the other categories that I sort of suspected might also come to it. But that's an important thing to recognize if you're a maker of any sort, like, just acknowledging your audience and saying, okay, like, this is who I'm talking to, I guess, yeah, the same with the same with my podcast, it's, you know, like, I'm just at the point where I want to make the show that I want to make, and people are going to come and I found that the people who are listening to it aren't necessarily the people, I thought were going to be listening to it, but people are listening to it. And that's great. And, you know, at first, I was disappointed when someone I know said, Yeah, listen, the podcast is not really for me, and you're like, shit, this is who I made the podcast for, you know, you own a food truck. You're not you're not listening to this. And I'm like, I don't care. Like I'm making the show I want to make but people are listening. So I'm doing something right. But it's not necessarily the people I thought it would be. Yeah, it's interesting. And it, you know, there, I feel like there's very many different conversations about being a woman in this world. And I think in my, the back of my mind, I thought I was having a conversation that was more angled towards sort of younger generation. But they're, I think they've you know, people that are 10 years younger than me have. This is probably like, workbook shit for them. You know, like, yeah, and, you know, and I, and I think women of a certain age and older have been dying to hear these words, you know, and so, I, again, I can say, I wasn't really thinking about an audience at all, because I don't know that this book would have come out if I had been, but I do I will ignore, I will accept, like, I was a little surprised at how invisible it became to this demographic and wholly visible to this demographic. It was so that was an interesting sort of like, oh, okay, like, not what I expected, was not disappointed, but like, just not what I expected. You know, I took a podcasting class and I said, create an avatar of your listener and make sure it is not you like, How old is your listener? What gender are they? What's their story? Like, they say, go so far as to like, find a picture of a random person on the internet, who you think would look like your listener and like, tape it to your wall? with like, what's their name? What's their job? And they said, like, but it's okay, if they look like you, but like, realize that it might not be you. It might not, you know, to Chris and Chefs, Without Restaurants, it might not be a 40 year old white guy who lives in the Mid Atlantic who's been in food forever, it might really be a 22 year old African American woman who lives in LA or, you know, whatever, that just just, you can't always put yourself out there thinking that you're going to be your target listener. And I think that gets really hard no matter what. creative space you're in. Yeah, well, I kind of just, you know, it reminds me to make the work despite, you know, despite an audience, I think, you know, I mean, I really believe in if you are a creative person, like making the work, and kind of like what we're saying it will resonate somewhere because I think anybody that takes any time making anything that is of their, the deepest parts of their humanity, it's going to get recognized by someone else's deepest part of their humanity. And I think that's the why, you know, it's I value creative makers and artists in this world, you know, and I think it's so important Do that. So, you know, I, I tried to sort of, you know, think about my intentions and what I need in this world and then make that, you know, communicate those things. And I'm lucky I get to, you know, married to a sculptor, and we get to have these probably really pretentious, heady conversations about the value of art making in this world. But I really am committed to that. I'm really glad I'm really grateful to find myself in a place where I can say that and honestly, try to, you know, try to build my life around it. Well, I look forward to seeing whatever your next venture is, hopefully, you're gonna take a little time, I'm sure before like, the next big thing.

Yeah, I mean, I'm I I'm incubating right now. I, you know, my husband, john is good at reminding me that I it's a it's a marathon, you know, and, and that, you know, and then I look to George Saunders to and the moments he disappears from culture entirely, to really kind of find the thing that is worth putting out in the world and trying to have that patience in a world where everything is immediate and constant is hard. But I think it's worth fighting for. And I hope I can pay my bills between now and the next. So that I don't get my, you know, my industrial worker bee doesn't freak out too much. That's been the hardest part for me is, you know, not clamoring to make sure every financial detail is addressed. And, you know, I have worked since I was 15 years old. And so changing my idea of what work is this hard one for me. But I can recognize at this age and at this point in my life, that it's really important to my craft, not to sound too much like a pretentious piece of shit. But like to honor the work like that I've worked hard to be able to do means I've got to stop panicking and stop calling, you know, people to write menus and do catering and do you know, sell pies and sell cakes? I've got to, I've got to stop engaging in that part of my person, which is hard for me. So yeah, I'm working on some things. I'm trying to build some things and I that I really believe in and I'm, I think I will get to do them. Knock on wood.

I can't wait. Well, thanks so much for coming on the show. This has been great. I've loved having you. I've enjoyed every second talking to you. Thanks for asking me to come on next time you have something new. I would love to catch up with you again about it.

I would love to do it.

Awesome. Well, thanks to all our listeners. This has been Chris with the Chefs Without Restaurants podcast. As always, you can find us at ChefsWithoutr staurants.org and.com and on a l social media platforms. T anks so much and have a great w ek. Thanks for listening to t e Chefs Without Restaurants p dcast. And if you're i terested in being a guest on t e show, or sponsoring the s ow, please let us know. We can b reached at Chefs Without r staurants@gmail.com Thanks so m ch.