When Passion Doesn't Pay The Bills - Pastry Chef Ryan Dumapit

Chris Spear: 0:00

Welcome to the Chefs Without Restaurants podcast. I'm your host Chris Spear. On the show, I have conversations with culinary entrepreneurs, and people in the food and beverage industry who took a different route. They're caterers, research chefs, personal chefs cookbook authors, food truckers, farmers, cottage bakers and all sorts of culinary renegades. I myself fall into the personal chef category, as I started my personal chef business Perfect Little Bites 10 years ago. And while I started working in kitchens in 1992, surprisingly, I've literally never worked in a restaurant. On this week's show. I have Ryan Dumapit. Full disclosure here... Ryan's one of my oldest friends. He was my roommate in culinary school and he was the best man at my wedding. I wanted to talk to Ryan about his path in the food and beverage industry. He has his Associate's Degree in Pastry Arts and his bachelor's degree in food service management. But Ryan doesn't have a singular path in the food industry. In fact, he also went to school for it and has worked for a point of sale company as well as a fitness company. We talked about many of the positions he's held including being a district manager for a contract food service company and working logistics for a large grocery chain. He also partnered with a mutual friend of ours Jeffry Wierzbicki on a c tering project called Fil Amaz ng Foods, as well as his own esserts company called CaSe B's. Unfortunately, due to the OVID pandemic, both of thes ventures have been put on hold for a while. Ryan is a firs generation Filipino Amer can. So we talked about Fili ino food and his expe iences growing up. And you' l also hear him talk about job hoices and the struggle of doin something you love for a care r versus having a job that can ay the bills. I know that's some hing a lot of people in the culi ary industry can relate to. I ho e you enjoy the show. And if y u love it, please subscribe and onsider signing up for the Chef Without Restaurants weekly news etter. You can find the link in the show notes or go to Chef WithoutRestaurants.org to sign u . Thanks so much for listen ng and have a great week. Hey, w lcome to the show. Ryan. How's t going?

Ryan Dumapit: 1:54

It's going great man. Good to see you. Wish it was in person. But I guess this will do for now. Thank God for technology. Right?

Chris Spear: 2:02

Thank God for technology. How long has it been? I haven't seen you It seems like ages. It's it's been a few years. Unfortunately. We'll have to fix that.

Unknown: 2:10

Yeah, yeah. I think the last time was when we had a when I was in DC in town for business. Oh, yeah,

Chris Spear: 2:15

that's right. Yeah. You did get to travel down this way. A little bit.

Unknown: 2:18

Yes. And then that's the night that uh, you know, we ate a lot. The night for free. Yeah. The

Chris Spear: 2:25

night of two dinners. Yeah, I know. It's very rare. You know, when you walk by roses luxury, if there's a an Open Table, you got to go in and snatch it up for sure.

Unknown: 2:34

Yeah. And it was a it was a rare like warm. Fall night too, right.

Chris Spear: 2:39

Yeah, I love fall. And yeah, we ate outside. We sat outside for like three hours and just had like course after course, and food and drink. And that was pretty good.

Unknown: 2:48

definitely miss it. And hopefully we get to see each other soon.

Chris Spear: 2:52

Yeah, so for all our listeners out there full disclosure, Ryan was my roommate in college, we've lived together for the better part of four years. And we are the best men in each other's weddings. So Ryan and I go way back. So another Johnson and Wales alum here. So we were just talking before we started rolling that. What do we say 26 years now? Like about Yeah.

Unknown: 3:18

2627 years. It's crazy. Wow.

Chris Spear: 3:21

So let's kind of start with your culinary background. So you're from New Jersey, and you end up going to Johnson and Wales for Pastry Arts?

Unknown: 3:30

Yes.

Chris Spear: 3:31

So how did you how did you end up getting into food? Were you always interested in food and specifically baking? Like when did you know you want to go to culinary school?

Unknown: 3:41

Um, I think from at high schools were really kind of where I wanted to take that jump into culinary school. You know, I've always been into food I grew up in the kitchen with my, my grandmother. She is always cooking or making something. So he's always fascinated by it. She let me help her out. think the first thing that I can remember her teaching me how to cook. Because I wanted him so badly. We're, you know, pancakes, and like breakfast food. And then High School. We, my junior year. At that point, I believe I was in fbla. And the advisor was like, Well, what do you want to do? And I said, Well, I've always been fascinated by food. More in the baking aspect of it, though. And she recommended, you know, that I look at the Johnson and Wales as well as CIA. I looked into both and then, you know, as you know, with the application process and CIA at that time, I don't know what it is like now, but they really wanted you to work first and then apply or get in a towel. They admitted I guess back in the day, where Johnson and Wales was kind of like, Oh, you could take anybody kind of off the street and hopefully teach them how to how to be a chef, or at least get them in the door to to being a chef. So I went with Johnson and Wales. You know, did the two year program with the culinary

Chris Spear: 4:58

but that was it. Well, and you Baking so it wasn't even calling are your your two years was just baking and pastry. You had no savory cooking courses?

Unknown: 5:06

Not at all. So, you know, and all the savory stuff that I've picked up has been through, you know, guys like you and and our friends and comments. So that's where I've picked up. And then you know, just general experience in the industry is where I picked up the savory stuff in recent years. But you know, I thought 96 when we did the associates part of the program, I thought that was it for me. I actually worked at a got a job at Trump Plaza at the Atlantic City working for Tom Vaccaro, and work there for a little bit, but then, at the end of the summer, decided to you know, come back and finish out the other two years, but this time, on the management aspect of things and got my bachelor's in, in food service management, from school, so on from there. Yeah, go ahead.

Chris Spear: 6:00

Well, I was gonna say, because I know you, it seems like you almost had like a, I don't wanna say a mini meltdown. But like, what happened that you graduated from college or high school with a pastry degree and worked so little? and laughed, and I know that summer, you, you know, you worked and did your thing, with no plans to come back? How did you decide to come back to school, because I remember that summer, and it was just, you know, you seem to be on the path to start a career in pastry. And then it was very short lived before you went back to school and decided to get into, you know, the business side. So what happened there? What, what triggered that?

Unknown: 6:36

Um, I think for me, and you know, me, I've always kind of had like, an entrepreneurial spirit coming up more conceptual. I've always been into like, business. And as much as I love patient, I still love it. And, you know, we can go back go into to the patient stuff. Later on in this in the podcast, I just felt that I needed to go in that direction first. And that, you know, I could always go back to pastry if I really wanted to, you know, and I, at that time, I, I thought I knew what I wanted. But you know, you're 2020 Yeah, 20. Right. Yeah. And in thinking No, are you thinking you know what you want, but you really don't so, and that's why I kind of went back to the school and then and kind of surround myself with the business aspect of the business.

Chris Spear: 7:26

Yeah, that was, I think that was a good decision. You know, for me, I don't know, if I had to do it again. Let's just say I went back to culinary school at Johnson wells, I think getting more training in business would be a smart idea. I mean, I did the four year culinary program. And there's a lot of benefits that you really refine your skills. But I think now as someone who owns their own business, you know, I've had to teach myself a lot about business, you know, bookkeeping, marketing, all the business. And I'm fortunate that I worked for large companies and got a lot of on the job training. But I definitely think it was a good decision on your part to pick up the business degree as well.

Unknown: 8:04

Right. I think it's been, you know, tremendous to have both the practical experience and the business experience, you know, by doing both. And like you said, you know, a lot of the stuff where you, you know, at least when you're doing the business part of it, you get a taste of the marketing, you know, marketing courses, basic business principles, statistics, stuff that you're going to need, eventually, especially if your endgame is to own your own business, these are tools that you're definitely going to need to grow and to make sure that your your business is, in essence running successfully, or as efficient as possible.

Chris Spear: 8:44

So what was your first job when you got out of culinary school then, like for the second time,

Unknown: 8:50

so when you graduated in 98, my first job was in Virginia, for the Hyatt Corporation, working in their, in their restaurant and their outlets. I was there for a year. And then I had to pivot A year later, and had to move back to New Jersey for some family stuff. And at that time, you know, it again, the business aspect kind of got into me, was the big thing back then. So I kind of made a jump. You know, obviously, with the help of my parents to move back, they said, okay, you can go to tech school. So that's kind of the deal. And then did that. And then I actually got into, you know, like point of sale, I guess, or the infancy of what now is Open Table. You'll know what Open Table is right? Yeah. So I was with actually the company that first came out before Open Table, which is food line. And they started out in restaurants in the New York City Market, as well as the Boston Market because they're based out of La But the majority of the business is actually in, in New York City. So it did that actually got sick with meningitis, and I was out for like a month. And then when I came back, unfortunately, that company started the fold. And then they phased out and Open Table is what it is today, in essence. And then from there, I worked in hotels, for the Hilton Corporation, and then other and other organizations as well. A mix of like, you know, hotels, and then I also did some stuff like with it more in the point of sale aspect of things.

Chris Spear: 10:43

Yeah, you have quite a career path in a short period of time.

Unknown: 10:48

Yeah, kind of a renaissance man, I guess at this at this point. It's, it's helped. It's been a blessing and a curse, I will say, you know, because you always get the question, oh, you always kind of jumped around and doing this. And that, you know, why is that? At the end of the day, and and you can agree with me or disagree with me. You know, you have to make moves, which best for you. But at the same time, especially with these big companies, your number you're replaceable. So you got to do what you have to do. To grow.

Chris Spear: 11:21

Yeah, I mean, you're a family, man, you've got a wife and kids, I know what that's like, I feel like you've had a little struggle with like, the making money and the job in the career versus passion. I think like you go back and forth a little bit like, you'll take a job because you need it. And the pay and the benefits are good, but like, it's not quite what you want to do. And then you'll find that thing for a little bit and do that. And then maybe you have to pivot again. Right. Is that a fair assessment? Yeah,

Unknown: 11:47

I think that's a fair assessment. You know, I think it's like, again, you have to do what you have to do. And then it's always just trying to reinvent yourself and putting stuff and putting stuff out there. I think, you know, timing is everything. You know, I've kind of as much as I have all these ideas and things going on. I think really Timing is everything. And it's just I'm always tinkering, I guess you could say on on, on all my projects on what I want, and how I want it.

Chris Spear: 12:21

So what's your what's your main job right now? What are you doing?

Unknown: 12:24

My main job is I work in logistics for a company called wakefern, which is the parent company or umbrella company of shoprite. Here in the tri state area, which is a grocery store chain. It's actually New Jersey's largest employer. So that's what I do. And this is, you know, post Corona. Pre Corona, I was in the food service industry more I've been, I guess, let's say the last five, six years,

Chris Spear: 12:54

I've been doing contract food service, primarily schools, but I've also had a stint in health care, as well. Was that your biggest job as far as overseeing kind of like a large program when you were working for them? Because I, as I recall, you had a pretty big area that you were responsible for.

Unknown: 13:14

Yeah, yeah, that's probably, um, I when I hit the director level, or general manager level, depending on what contract food service company you work for, they're all different titles, but they're all the same thing. Yeah, that was probably the biggest, I guess, responsibility that that I handled from from employees and staff to, you know, volume, budgets and, and all that stuff. Was it very stressful, extremely. And it's probably the first job, I would say where I had to bring work home, all the time or work was constantly on my mind. So definitely took a toll on me, mentally and physically, as well. So, you know, I had a little bit of a health scare at work in one of those roles, whereas actually stretchered out and had to go to the hospital. So,

Chris Spear: 14:10

so what was that? Was that like a stress induced panic type thing? or some kind of?

Unknown: 14:14

Yeah, I think it was, I think, was more anxiety than anything at the end of the day, you know, once all the tests were done, I think a lot of it was stress induced and anxiety filled. So you know, you just got to learn how to, you know, and you're still learning how to channel channel those things and how to address it and how to alleviate it. You know, doesn't matter kind of what role you're in, you're always gonna have have stress in the workplace environment. It's just, you know,

Chris Spear: 14:42

managing it better. Oh, 100% I mean, I was 22 the first time I had something like that and my legs went numb and I collapsed and my wife, you know, got me in the car and I got to the hospital they put me in a wheelchair is like, Am I gonna die? Like, you know, the, I had never had a history of anxiety, at least that I understood, or anything like that. And you know, you don't know if it's a heart attack, like, I had no idea. I was like 22. And just realizing that, you know, that's what that was. But it took me a long time to even figure that out. And I spent the better part of 10 years, like with health issues, all related to stress, almost exclusively linked to my jobs, which sucks,

Unknown: 15:23

right, right. And you don't ever want it to be that way. You know? And that's, and that's kind of like the thing too, like, when when you're in that kind of environment, it's like, what do you do? Like, do you stick it out? Or do you move on, you know,

Chris Spear: 15:37

ultimately, I moved on. I mean, I had to quit my job. I mean, there's a number of reasons, I obviously wanted to take my own business. But it was the stress and the anxiety. That was the tipping point for me. I mean, I realized my health was going downhill. And I just could not be in this environment that was toxic, and be around horrible people and be stressed out every day. And it was taking a physical and mental toll on me. And I just decided it would be much better to leave and figure things out on my own, then to deal with that all the time. I just couldn't do it anymore.

Unknown: 16:07

I mean, don't you find it kind of ironic, though, and, you know, the one thing that we have in common is that, you know, we're not going to go into names of companies, but, you know, they kind of put they try to promote, you know, the whole healthy quality of life thing. But, you know, you kind of don't see that you take your work home with you, you stress out about it, you know, and if you try to, if you do try to like vent out about it, it's almost like you're considered, you know, you're being weak. And that's another thing in our industry, it's like, if you vent or like you, or you show any sort of weakness in our industry, it's like you're, you're considered weak sauce, or you're soft.

Chris Spear: 16:48

And I think one of the things is as you as you move up, you're a salaried employee. And I think that gets really hard, because what is the clear expectation as far as hours, you know, when are you on? And when are you off the clock, you know, my boss would give me a loose schedule, which was, you know, like, nine to seven or something like that. But quite often, I was expected to be in at eight or sometimes six for an event. But that didn't mean I got off at two, you know, I want to talk about your background a little bit. So people can't see you here. So they might not know, but you are Filipino American.

Unknown: 17:24

Yes, first generation, you know, both my parents immigrated here in the 70s. You know, my mom, in the stereotypical profession of nursing, and my father was an engineer by trade. So, but you know, they are what I call and I tell people, the, you know, the ultimate American Dream situations where they came here with very little, but, you know, retired, unfortunately, that passed away five years ago, but, you know, ended up all on, you know, at high levels. So, you know, it's something that I've strived to do, and that I'm still trying to, you know, striving to do today to get to their level or exceeded.

Chris Spear: 18:09

So does that impact? How you were raised? You know, like, what's the mindset of people who come over from another country? Like, what was the expectation on you, as far as education career was their pressures? Did you feel that it was different than maybe someone who came from, you know, whose family had always been here? Absolutely.

Unknown: 18:29

I mean, for me, being that I was the first child here, with my parents and stuff like that I was the experimental child. So a lot of the value systems or core values that I was raised were, you know, I would say, 75%, of like, Filipino tradition, and then, you know, 25%, of immersing into the, into the American way of life, you know, where school was, that's it, that's your job. You know, and I and, and I say that I'm blessed and lucky, because a lot of this stuff was taken care of, for me financially, you know, I didn't have to worry about work as a teenager. I didn't really didn't get my first job till I was 17. And, you know, it was kind of frowned upon by my by my father, to work, you know, growing up, like, oh, why are you working? Like you should be concentrating on getting into college into school. You know, so I only worked the summer and then I went, you know, concentrated on getting into into college. You know, it wasn't Harvard or, or, you know, some some big name school, it ended up being Johnson and Wales. So I kind of threw them for a curveball, when one was comfort in decision making processes, what I was going to do for the rest of my life,

Chris Spear: 19:46

sounds very different than many of the stories I've heard, especially people who come over, or are children of immigrants, usually, I would say, you know, what I'm used to hearing is the kids are expected to work there. Not that you didn't have a good work ethic, but that It's almost like the opposite, like your parents didn't want you to work where I think a lot of times the table's turned. And the expectation is that you do work that you might even have to financially help out, you know, with the family, your parents obviously had good jobs where, you know, they didn't need the financial help. But I think it's interesting that they didn't make you work to kind of, like, get your work ethic down at a young age.

Unknown: 20:21

Right. But you know, I think it's, again, it's a blessing and a curse, blessing being that it provides you opportunities to do things that maybe, you know, some people wouldn't be able to do or get in. But it's also a curse, because, you know, you become heavily dependent on them, you know, because you think, oh, they're gonna fix everything. Were maybe gonna use those years to kind of troubleshoot and fix things on your own. And, you know, that's kind of the advice that I gave my parents moving on with, with my brother, who you know, and where we are day and night. So he started working from a young age, my parents were like, Yeah, go for it at this point, you know, and, you know, he's been a lot better as far as adjusting to, I guess, adult life versus versus me, you know, I didn't, I didn't really learn how to balance a checkbook till I was in my 20s, you know, and then, you know, budgeting and stuff like that. There was no budget when I was in, in school, you know, that. So, no, you

Chris Spear: 21:22

whatsoever, as opposed to me? cheapest person you ever met?

Unknown: 21:26

Yeah, I mean, you know, and then I tell people to this day, that you're the one who told me, you know, who taught me how to live on, like, you know, basically, at that time, you know, minus the inflation, how to live on $5 a week, literally. So it a lot of trial and error, a lot of things, but you know, just things that I pass down to my parents to kind of like so that, you know, they wouldn't go through that with my brother. And my brother, I think has, I guess, thrive better in his early, you know, from early adulthood on than I did in that transition? So, you know, not to say that things are easier now. But you know, I have a better grasp on it now, but it just took me longer to do

Chris Spear: 22:05

well, and everyone's different. Everyone needs the path. You know, I think you're happy with where you are now. And who knows, you know, if you had done things differently, what would have happened? So, you know, you can't look back. Obviously, you can't change anything. But

Unknown: 22:20

so right,

Chris Spear: 22:20

let's talk Filipino food, because that's something that really interests me, we're obviously kind of having a boom in interest, right? Like more Filipino restaurants are opening up here in the DC area, you know, bad St. We have places like Kuya Jaws, and just talking to you. And I remember saying, you know, why aren't there Filipino restaurants and there's a conversation like 20 years ago, and you just had, you didn't think that it would fly that the American palate wasn't there for it, and that the Filipino people would never go out for it, because they would just eat, you know, in their homes and homestyle. So, did you see any kind of moment where it started to pop or anything?

Unknown: 23:00

I think for me, two people, Andrew Zimmer, and Anthony Bourdain, I think they're kind of the, you know, if I had to give credit to anybody, it would be them to kind of put it on a, you know, on a mainstream level, or at least introduce it to the country. I know out west because of the populations. Out West, there have been you know, Filipino restaurants. They kind of had a head start on it.

Chris Spear: 23:30

We had a large population in Seattle, like I had a bunch of Filipino women who worked for me, but I don't even remember having a restaurant out there. There might have been but

Unknown: 23:39

you know, and then you know, typically here Filipino restaurants have just been what they call Turo. Turo, so you kind of point and choose almost like, like a cafe, like you're almost eating in a, you know, residence hall. Like, it's like a buffet style. And you just pick and choose what you want. Nothing was made ala carte, you know, and it's typically like the main staples of basic one on one Filipino food, and then maybe they'll throw in something that they normally wouldn't throw in. So that's as far as they got it. But you know, in recent years now, like you said, with the bad saints, you know, I think propaganda in DC is another one. And then out here in New York City, you know, maharlika, which was one and then Jeepney, I guess is the is the other the big name, I guess right now in the New York City area. They've kind of led the progression as far as Filipino food on this side, I guess the coast.

Chris Spear: 24:36

Yeah, I remember your you talked about your grandmother, I thought was really interesting that you brought up your grandmother, and then it was like pancakes, which, you know, I'm sure she made but I always think of your grandmother as someone who always was making this really amazing Filipino food. And now in hindsight, I wish I spent more time eating her food. She gets so bent out of shape, she would get up in the morning and make this food and then we're like now we're like going in New York City today because that's what we wanted to do. We're in our 20s. You know, I think I've even mentioned on this podcast, I think the very first time that I had shrimp with the head on was at your house, I, you know, it's crazy, because we see it all the time now. But even as like a 21 year old, I was like, What the hell is this? Like, I didn't even know, I was in culinary school. And I'd never even seen a shrimp with the head on till we had them at your house. And also the fact that she would put things with bones in them, like in a bun type thing. And I remember having some kind of like bun and biting in and there was like a big like, short rib bone or something in the middle or I can bone I thought that was so like a,

Unknown: 25:33

like a bow bun. Yeah, yeah. Yeah.

Chris Spear: 25:36

So interesting.

Unknown: 25:37

Yeah, it is, I definitely, you know, regret not spending enough more time with my grandmother, because she definitely has a vast knowledge. I know, she has recipes lying around that, uh, you know, when the when the time is right, I definitely want to try and bring back or try. I mean, my grandmother is the type of person where she kind of just, she didn't scale anything, she kind of just did it. But the crazy part is, you know, it was consistently like, good or like the same. So that's the, that's the, that's the crazy part. You know, I couldn't like figure it out for the life of me, you know, being that I come from a patient background on everything has to be measured and precise. You know, and then here's this, you know, old lady, just making stuff and every single time like, it comes out. Perfect. And I could never figure out, you know, her secret to that.

Chris Spear: 26:25

That's the old school. And to anyone out there listening. I think you have to, if you're interested in keeping up with your family recipes and traditions, like I would say, knit get them nailed down, you know, with my mom, that was something that I did was looking at our family recipe saying, well, this says between a half and a third of a pound, how much are you really using or it says like, little over, you know, a cup and a half of and I really wanted because I'm kind of meticulous like that, like getting the numbers of how my mom was doing it.

Unknown: 26:54

Especially if you want like, you know, for consistency purposes. And you want it to be, you know, consistent always. So, getting getting those numbers down, I think is important.

Chris Spear: 27:07

Now, you had started doing some catering of Filipino food in the past couple years. Do you want to talk about that a little bit?

Unknown: 27:15

Yeah, so I we are doing traditional. And then I joined up with another chef, that you know, Jeff, where's Becky? Doing, Phil? Amazing foods. It's another concept that we've been trying to get off the ground. Again, it's all timing. You did a couple of things together. But this is more of like, I guess across a traditional and, you know, he has Argentinian background and polish background. And then you know, our American background as well, kind of doing the fusion thing with it. And he's real creative with with a lot of that stuff. And then I was doing some desserts, and kind of modernizing them. I don't want to say bastardizing it, but more. I guess making it a little bit more modern.

Chris Spear: 28:01

Would you say more approachable? Maybe?

Unknown: 28:03

Yeah, I would say more approachable. You know, I don't want to go too exotic or too crazy with it to the point where it's no longer you know, the essence of what it's supposed to be.

Chris Spear: 28:11

Hmm. Well, I know one of the things was Jeff's a big soccer fan like he was doing a lot of Did you ever go with him to do the tailgates

Unknown: 28:19

the tailgates I didn't get to go with him, but I've done house parties with him. And and we did a couple like one off events as well together. So, you know, he's, he's the mad scientist behind a lot of the savory stuff. I kind of you know, throw in my two cents with it, but then he's the one who kind of like polishes it up. And then we go with it.

Chris Spear: 28:38

But then shortly thereafter, you started doing your own dessert business.

Unknown: 28:43

Yeah, that kind of almost like an accident type thing. Like you know, I was baking and then my daughter's my daughter's cheer team at the time. We were going to do like giveaways. So we did you know, like customized cookies. And then from there, you know, I got inquiries about doing them for other you know, dance schools, cheer teams, etc. And then it evolved into like, hey, do you do cupcakes? And then do you do do you do custom cakes and I was doing that for like the past year up to the point of Corona where we had a little bit of, you know, traction and, and momentum going into it. But after Corona, things kind of just dried up for me and then you know, with the life with the life and work change for me, it definitely affected it immensely. To the point now where I'm still trying to figure out you know, what my next move is going to be with Kacie B's, you know, and I know you and I've had this discussion too about baking or baking part time. You know, where I kind of have to figure it out like is it really worth it the time that I'm putting in, you know, and what am I getting out of it at the end of the day, so and also the the competition here and this area alone is is crazy with, I guess, if you want to call it a home bakers, are people doing it on the side that you're competing with? You know?

Chris Spear: 30:10

Yeah, I would say roughly roughly here in Frederick, there's probably a minimum of 10. Like if today someone said, I need someone to make me cakes, or cookies or whatever, I could probably have a list of 10 people in right now half an hour who could do it, it seems like everyone is a cottage Baker these days, and not to knock your cottage bakery. But there's a lot of people doing it. Because I think there's a you know, it's a low lower cost to entry kind of thing.

Unknown: 30:36

And it's kind of crazy here to what you're competing with. Because in New Jersey, there are no cottage laws, they're still trying to pass the cottage law. And, you know, in Congress or Senate right now, the home Baker bills act. And they've been trying to battle that for, I would say the last five years that I've known about it anyways, I'm sure it's more,

Chris Spear: 30:56

so you're not allowed to bake out of your house right now.

Unknown: 30:58

We're not we're not you know, so I have to look for places, you know, willing to let me bake stuff out of so that, you know, that's usually a church with a commercial kitchen and you give them you throw them either some free food or, you know, a donation of some sort, or there's a commercial kitchen that's willing to let you to do stuff after hours. You know, so that was, you know, another challenge for me, too, I was lucky to hook up with with some commercial kitchens. But now, you know, with Coronavirus, they're either they're just not open or, you know, they shut down. So, you know, that's my other thing of, you know, trying to get back into things is, is that and honestly, it's it's a headache, looking every week, you're lining up all these orders, maybe it's only one or two orders a week, you know, and then you're sinking a certain amount of your overhead into into renting a place. So it's like, okay, am I gonna do this? Because I'm eating out? Or, you know, or I'm making very little profit on this, you know, I don't know how some of these home bakers do it. You know, I'm assuming that for most of these people, it's it's supplemental, but I don't know, like, how a lot of people are, you know, making huge profits from doing this just on a part time level?

Chris Spear: 32:15

Yeah, I've, you know, I've talked to a few of them. And that's what I'm always interested in is how many people are just doing it as a side gig as opposed to full time and really need that income, you know, a lot of people, no one in particular, I'm talking about, but a lot of people have a spouse who's making a decent amount of money, you know, it's hard when you're working a job making, you know, 50 to $70,000 a year to rip the band aid off and say, like, I'm gonna start making cakes and cupcakes and cookies, like, That's right, how long can you ever get to that salary level, just doing that,

Unknown: 32:48

and I feel that's a lot of the people that I compete with, is that, you know, you have a lot of, and I don't want to generalize it, but I think, you know, you have a lot of people who are state homes, that can afford to price you out, you know, because their spouse or whatever, is making significant of, you know, for some of them, I think it's just, you know, a little bit of income for them. But I think for a lot of them, it's more they truly enjoy it. And it's more of a passion project for, for some of these people, personal chefs to

Chris Spear: 33:19

personal chefs to these people doing these $30 dinners, see it all the time.

Unknown: 33:25

It's tough, and it's frustrating, but you know, you know, what I what I really want to charge, you know, it's because I believe in my product, and from the quality of ingredients that I use, in the time that I that I put into it. So it's frustrating when I see what i what i can do versus what some other people are doing and their pricing you out. You know, and some people will price me up by like, $1, you know, $1 It's crazy.

Chris Spear: 33:50

And at some point, you just can't worry about that. Right? I mean, you have to worry about it, because it's your competition. But I've I don't discuss pricing with customers as far as it relates to competitors. You know, when people say, I'm shopping around, or, you know, well, I've seen other people who charge 50 I just say, Well, I can't speak to that I have no idea what their circumstances are, the quality of their products, or any of that I just know, you know, here's my experience, here's what you're gonna get. And this is the cost. And I totally understand if that's not in your price range. And it's worked out for me.

Unknown: 34:25

I think it's just sticking to your guns and saying this is what I do. And this is where I'm at, you know, where I need to be in order for it to be worth worth it for me, you know, it's like, if I want to put the time and effort I need to get something out of it. You know, especially if it's something that I'm not doing full time, you know, something to supplement you you have to try to maximize your time and your effort, you know, because you're taking away from you know, time that's off we could either be resting or spending time with your family. So, you know, I mean lesson learned is This just you know, stick to your guns and stick to your price points. If you really like something, or if you're really into it, you'll pay for it. I see it all the time. And I see it with your with your business and you have repeat customers, you stick to your guns, you've been doing it, and you have VIP customers, if they really liked you, and they really liked your product. They're gonna use it no matter what. Yep,

Chris Spear: 35:23

yep, there, I never want to be the cheap guy. There's always the cheap guy, there's always the Walmart of whatever and right. I think at that level, you have to train on volume. And I just don't want to be trading on volume and making it another, you know, foods already a commodity, but it doesn't need to be even further commoditized In my opinion,

Unknown: 35:40

do I want to be do volume? Or do I want to do smaller, more intimate orders and stuff like that, but at the right price point. So these are things that I'm still trying to figure out?

Chris Spear: 35:52

And if you never get back to baking, would you be okay with that? Like, do you self identify as a pastry chef or a baker? And, you know, because I have that conversation with people a lot of times, like, we kind of get tied to our thing. And you've kind of bounced all over different industries, would you be okay, with just never baking again, at least at least at least as a full time? Like, if you if you just did it as like a little side thing? Would that be enough for you?

Unknown: 36:20

Yeah, I think I'd be okay with it, you know, I think going into it full time would be very difficult, you know, because you're, in essence going to be starting over again, from the bottom. And it's something that financially just does not make any sense. For me at this point in my life. And at this point in my life, I'm okay with, with where I'm at, you know, baking will always be there, you know, food will always be there. If I want to do it, you know, I can do it at any time I feel. You know, it's just the right. It's, again, it's all timing and the right opportunity. I don't want to jump into it, just to jump into it. You know, I think this whole pandemic has kind of made me think things through or think things over that, you know, I need to start doing things that's right for me, right for my family. And that, you know, I get maximum opportunity. And, you know, bottom line from it?

Chris Spear: 37:17

Well, I'd say it's not too late to start, even in your 40s. But, uh, so let's say you're going to go back and give advice, because we have a lot of people who are younger, what, what would you say people should maybe do? Like if they wanted to start their own small desserts business. And you could start over? What kind of advice would you give?

Unknown: 37:40

First things first, and this enemy could tie this into culinary school, is before you invest any sort of money into polarie school or any food business is his work in the industry. You know, work at a Starbucks work at a bakery of some sort, get that experience, do your research. I think that's the one thing that I regret not doing is working in the industry before jumping into culinary school. Again, I don't regret anything that I've done or how I've done it. But if I had to do it over again. And you know, that's what I what, that's what I tell any young person trying to go into this industry is working at first, you know, if you can stand, you know, almost working seven days a week long hours working through holidays, you know, sacrificing time with your friends, you know, the lifestyle, if you can handle that, you know, then put the money sink the money into into culinary school to refine your skills. But I don't necessarily think that you need to go to culinary school to become a to become a successful successful chef nowadays, especially when, technically, you could get your education on YouTube, which is kind of scary. And I'm seeing all these culinary schools now where they say you could get your culinary degree online, which I think is like I said, scary.

Chris Spear: 39:00

Yeah, I agree seeing how people are doing culinary schools virtually as well. But I get sometimes like Facebook ads from Johnson Wales saying get your degree and I'm thinking, what kind of coursework? I mean, if if I'm going to pay for it. So I think you you get what you pay for. Right? Like, right, watching YouTube videos is fantastic. You're not getting feedback, I think is the big thing you're missing. So you can definitely play around at home. And you know, I don't want to use play as a negative term, you can definitely teach yourself a lot because I'm a big believer in being self taught somewhat. But I think what you miss is that you know, having a chef try it and give you really critical feedback. I think that's the difference between like being, I'm using my hands but like being here and taking it to the next level. And I think that's the difference between you know, do you want to go be the executive pastry chef at, you know, a fine dining restaurant, versus, you know, making cakes for a bakery. I don't think you saralee need to go to military school for that.

Unknown: 40:03

And I think to like, you know, being that we didn't have the resources that are out there now, you were really limited on what you could do with your degree.

Chris Spear: 40:11

We're so old that we predate the internet.

Unknown: 40:14

Right? Crazy, right? But yeah, like, I mean, when we came out of school, you either went to a hotel, you worked in a restaurant, a resort, a cruise ship, you know, where contract food service was, like, No, you kind of go out there. Like when you're, you know, when you're at the tail end of your career, you know, they kind of discouraged you, I felt from from going that route, which I think, you know, if I found out about contract food service, you know, earlier and the things you could do in it, I would have probably jumped on that a lot sooner just because of the lifestyle that you could get out of it.

Chris Spear: 40:55

Well, that's really interesting, because I went right into contract food service right out of culinary school, I didn't even understand it, though. It wasn't really discussed, like I went to work at a retirement community that was run by compass at the time, and I didn't even understand the fact that like, the bosses I worked for worked for a different company than who I was getting my paycheck from, you know, at 22, I still didn't even get that it wasn't something I'd even really explored. But I jumped right into that, I think, I think it's a double edged sword. Because looking back on it, I kind of wish I didn't, you know, I got into it, because I needed a higher paying job, you know, they paid much better than independent restaurants. And they had benefits. Another thing like, you know, I needed health insurance, you know, and who doesn't want two weeks paid vacation. But the challenges is, you don't really get the same kind of experience, I think it's good to, I think it would have been good for me to move around a little bit more. And I did instead of like, getting into contract food service and kind of staying there for such a long period.

Unknown: 41:54

You know, and I guess that's where the benefit of moving around like for me from both, you know, industries and from places that I that I was able to learn and grasp certain things and take with me into into other situations. So you know, where you kind of had more of a steady flow of, you know, places you were at, and where I was kind of been like all over the place. You know, that's, I guess where I guess you could have benefited from moving around a little bit more not to not to do what I did. But, you know, maybe if you went to two other places, or whatever, maybe you would have done something or in a different light, whether it's working in a in a restaurant or some other realm of food service.

Chris Spear: 42:35

Well, and this doesn't just necessarily happen in contract food service. But I do feel like, there's less mentorship, there's more of an expectation that you are an independent worker, meaning, you know, there's less of a hierarchy, like you have a director and then an executive chef, and then everyone under that is expected to really work at a higher level without training, like I was brought in as essentially like a line cook, and became a sous chef, like within six months, which is insane. Like, I wasn't ready for it. I hadn't. I didn't have the culinary skills, even though I went to culinary school, and I definitely didn't have the leadership. And I see that over and over as they just like, move you up through the ranks. And then you know, next thing, you know, your executive chef is fired. And because you're the sous chef, they move you up and who doesn't want to be an executive chef. But again, like at 24, are you really ready to be an executive chef? And I don't know that you see that in restaurants as much maybe. Right. But

Unknown: 43:30

well, I also think too that like the the quality of personnel that you have in contract food service versus hotels and restaurants is this tenfold. I feel that in restaurants and hotels and stuff like that you had people who actually want to be there and kind of like learn and work their way and don't mind working their way up. And through different stations versus somebody who's in contract food service. You know, I mean, the quality of employees, rarely do I get somebody that's, you know, I guess truly culinary trained or, or who wants to be there for a lot of these people. It's just, you know, it's a job to them, you know, oh, it's cooking, how hard can that be? I cook at home, or you know, I bake at home. So I think that has a lot to do as far as growth opportunities and why you probably advanced so quickly.

Chris Spear: 44:20

Yeah, again, people want to go there because of the benefits and things that come along with that they don't necessarily want to be there to learn. Something I've always wanted to do is in the places that I was at, especially if I was in a leadership position, was making sure that we had a really good training program and I let them know the expectation was that like, this is going to be kind of like a restaurant like I want you to learn. I want you to ask questions. We're always going to be innovating if you came here to kind of like, live out your final days in a kitchen or just because you need a job. This isn't really what I'm looking for you Yeah,

Unknown: 44:53

right. I think as long as you establish that point and they and I'm sure there are chefs in contract food service who who run things similarly? Or do it like you do? But you know, there are a lot of places are like no, because they know what they're getting. So it's like almost like why bother? I think a lot of people who go into contract food service or are frustrated and burnt out, quite honestly,

Chris Spear: 45:18

it's also a very different animal. Because looking at the restaurant world these days, and all the, you know, seeing what's happening in restaurants, like we're finally talking about, especially in the media, whether it be sexual harassment, or just harassment, you know, kitchen life, kitchen lifestyles, you know, it's very different in contract food, I think the biggest thing for me is I've always had an on site, HR department everywhere I've worked, which is not something you're seeing an independent restaurants, like, I can't imagine throwing things at employees or swearing at them or harassing them like it, it just wouldn't fly. And, you know, I'm always, I'm just kind of surprised that how long these things are going on in kitchens, just because I didn't come up with that I was never in a, I don't think I've ever worked in a place that didn't have an HR department literally in the building.

Unknown: 46:08

Yeah, and that's, and that's the thing that you can only hope but this next generation and crop of food service professionals is that, you know, that they're learning that, you know, in order, they're the ones who can change the culture, and the old school way of life, I guess, in our industry, and you're starting to see it to happen with all these lawsuits, and, you know, people coming out and calling out, you know, I guess more the celebrity chefs, because they're the easy target at this point. But yeah, I mean, I think the culture definitely has to change in order for that stuff, you know, that to happen on that side of things. I think, you know, you can never get away with it from the contract food service, just because like you said, there's always HR or something, take control that situation.

Chris Spear: 46:55

Yeah, it's, uh, I'm appreciative of it, though. But, you know, working for those companies, you also learn how to properly interview people hire them, God forbid, fire them, but, you know, working people through the coaching process and the eval process, you know, having to give man I had to give employees a 90 day, a six month and an annual evaluation. And that's a lot when you have so many employees. I mean, a lot of times, I felt like I was just locked in my office doing evaluations for hours on end. But I think that's something you don't do. If you're the executive chef at a restaurant, how often are you doing evals for, you know, your cooks?

Unknown: 47:36

See there, you can do it, or you can, like, you know, from from what I've heard, it's like, you know, I have friends and family who were on the restaurant side of thing, then it's like, they can either they can either do the job or not, you know, and then it's very simple decision, it's either this today's your last day, or, you know, you're staying versus, you know, us in contract food service, where we work, it's everything is a process, you can't just say you staying, see you later, there's a door, you know, it's, well, you know, you're really lacking here, let's try retraining you again, you know, if that doesn't work, then you know, we're gonna have to talk to you again, if that doesn't work, then we have to, you know, write you up,

Chris Spear: 48:19

it's a, it's a blend, because I do think there are times that you need to move someone out of the job faster than you can. I'm not one to fire someone right away. But I also feel, they're, to be honest, I left my last job because of toxic employees, who worked for me, you know, my subordinates, and they, you know, we weren't able to move them out, you know, I would go to the HR department all the time talking about the issues, and they just were not comfortable with terminating the employees based on the evidence. And I just, you know, that's a challenge that I had, you know, is with with hiring and firing is like, you want to put the right people in place, but you can't because you're stuck with people that, you know, HR says you can't fire or, you know, or this person has been here 20 years, like,

Unknown: 49:10

what are they doing so wrong now, it's like, maybe, you know, maybe people have not have turned a blind eye and not not seen it. And me being the new guy, I'm seeing this stuff, and stuff needs to be done. You know, so that's kind of the frustration that I've had in roles like that, where you're trying to change the culture and trying to do things, but then, you know, it almost becomes political. You know, and, and discouraging and makes your job that much more difficult. And, you know, you know, you're trying to try to create a path to success for you, but when you can make the changes that you need to and you're not getting the support from your upper managers, you know, it's it's difficult.

Chris Spear: 49:51

All things I'm really glad I'm not doing right now. As much as I love being a mentor and a leader in the kitchen. It's been kind of a nice break, not having over 100 and employees that reported to me.

Unknown: 50:02

Yeah. So and you and you seem a lot happier, you know, doing what you're doing. And I'm surely happy for you.

Chris Spear: 50:11

Well, thanks. Yeah, I love it. And the podcasting thing has been a lot of fun too. So

Unknown: 50:17

that's good, you know, and I'm glad to see that it's gaining traction every time.

Chris Spear: 50:23

So one of my favorite questions is what are some of your favorite resources, whether it be culinary resources, physical tools, cookbooks, websites, what are some things you love and want to share?

Unknown: 50:37

I like to go to I like, you know, YouTube is really good. But I like looking more for like professional chefs like to see what they're doing. As far as certain techniques and stuff like that, like professional techniques. You know, my favorite pastry chef of all time is prma, from France. So anytime he has some new material or anything new, even his old stuff, I still watch over and over to this day, just because I really dig is his classic style, but you know, he's made classic look modern, you know, without without compromising the old school, I guess, flare of things. And then any, any, any, anything I hear about any of the trends that I hear about, I'll try to look it up and stuff like that, you know, social media has been very helpful in that aspect. You know, books, you know, flavor Bible, definitely something that I still refer to

Chris Spear: 51:29

another plug for the most popular book on this podcast.

Unknown: 51:34

And then I love reading stuff from like, Julia Child still like the classics, Julia Chapin. You know, I've always admired him from from a savory standpoint, you know, because their technique and watching their technique as old school as it is, it's the basics, it's the foundation. And it's the foundations that are going to get you far in this industry. You know, one of the things that kind of aggravates me, is you see all these kids, or these younger chefs who, you know, you know, they'll do their two year stint, or three year stint culinary school or not even, you know, they'll watch a couple YouTube videos and think they're, you know, automatically the master of doing something. But it's like, do you know the foundations behind it? Like, can you just bake me like a plane? For example, bake me a cookie, you know, or, or from a savory standpoint, make me scrambled eggs? Like, can you do those fundamental things? You know, are you seasoning? Right? Are you are you measuring? Right?

Chris Spear: 52:37

Yeah, I mean, I've seen, you know, there's a lot of discussion about that, during the real boom of molecular gastronomy, it's like, I would get these young cooks come in, and they would want to learn to do all that stuff. But they couldn't properly roast a chicken, or cook a steak, you know, like, make me a medium rare steak. And they would either overdo it or under do it. And not being able to see some things not being able to properly caramelized onions, but they want to do all this stuff with the hydrocolloids, which seems cool, but like, you don't even have the fundamentals down.

Unknown: 53:09

It's like, you know, like, with the Soviet machines, like you really know what you're doing with that. And then some of the tools that some of the people like some of the home chefs have by it's like, you don't really need that, like, there are other things. Before you even get into that. Sometimes the most basic tool will get you there. So those are the kind of I mean, I guess I'm the old man on the lawn now.

Chris Spear: 53:31

Maybe a little, a little bit,

Unknown: 53:32

but you know, it stuff like that, that aggravates me, I guess, for people like us who've kind of put in the time and the effort. And then you know, you just kind of see, you know, the younger people kind of kind of go in and think they know, they know it all

Chris Spear: 53:47

the last guest I had on the podcast, Monica glass, who's a pastry chef, you know, she said her favorite tools are her hands and her senses you know, really her she said my favorite thing is working with my hands You know, you're working with a dough, how does it feel? visually? How does it look? You know, just it wasn't like some fancy kitchen tool. It was just what we're given, you know? Yeah, I

Unknown: 54:10

mean, in essence, I mean baking really is you know, your tools to get you to where you need is is your senses and then a heat source at the end of the day. I mean, you know, basic baking one on one if you want to do it is like bread. You know, you don't really need a mixer to make bread. You just need the ingredients and then eat source. You know, things can be done and you don't necessarily need the the latest and greatest thing to to get it done.

Chris Spear: 54:41

No, I agree. Well, do you have any parting words before we get out of here today?

Unknown: 54:45

Just thanks for having me on. It's a You're doing a great thing for the industry. And, you know, hopefully you hear from my concepts which is Kacie B's which is the baking concept and Philomena foods which I do with Chef Jeff, which is our Filipino fusion food. So hopefully after this Coronavirus epidemic, pandemic, whatever you want to call it ends, you know, I'll have a firm grasp on the direction on what we're doing with these things.

Chris Spear: 55:15

Yep. It's just been a year of kind of laying low and planning and with you. Well, we'll be sharing Well, I'll still be sharing all that info in the show notes so people will know where to find you. And they will be informed when you pop back up with your desserts and your Filipino food.

Unknown: 55:30

Sounds good, man. Thanks.

Chris Spear: 55:32

Well, thanks so much for coming on the show. And to all of our listeners. This has been the Chefs Without Restaurants podcast. As always, you can find us at ChefsWithoutR staurants.com and .org, and on all social media platforms. Thanks so much and have a great week.