Salad, Pizza and Wine with Ryan Gray and Janice Tiefenbach

This week I speak with Ryan and Janice of Nora Gray, and Elena restaurants in Montreal. They have a new book out called salad, pizza wine. And I think you're gonna love it. I'm Chris spear. And you're listening to Chefs Without Restaurants, the show where I usually speak with culinary entrepreneurs and people working in the food and beverage industry outside of a traditional restaurant setting. But today, my guests actually do have a couple of restaurants. One of the fun benefits of this podcast is that I get advanced copies of a lot of cookbooks. I'm sure you've noticed, I've had quite a few cookbook authors on the show recently. So on the show, we talked about how the Montreal food scene has continued to evolve in recent years. But we also spoke about how they've evolved, and how they've wanted their restaurants to evolve as well. We talked about culture, and building restaurants that were healthy for both the employees and the customers. But that has to start at the top. We talked about what local means to them. What does it look like to run a Montreal pizzeria? They decided that importing all the ingredients from Italy wasn't the right move for them. So they started to look locally. And of course, we talked about their new cookbook. One of the things I wanted to talk to them about was natural wine. It's something I think a lot of people are hearing more about these days, but personally, I still didn't really know much about it. So I wanted to learn a little. If you're interested in picking up a copy of the cookbook, click the link in my bio. If you'd like pizza, salad and or wine, I think you're going to enjoy it. And this week's episode has been brought to you by the United States personal chef Association and hire a chef. The show will be coming right up after a word from our sponsor. Are you a personal chef looking for support and growth opportunities? Look no further than the United States personalchef association with nearly 1000 members across the US and Canada. USPCA provides liability insurance certification lead generation and more. Consumers can trust that their meal experience is ensured and supported by USPCA. And now for a limited time, save$75 on new membership and get your premier listing on hire chef by using the code TaxBreak2023 at uspca.com. Plus, if you have products or services to sell chefs and their clients showcase your business on hire chef and USPCA websites with our great introductory packages. To learn more about membership advertising or partnership opportunities, call Angela at 1-800-995-2138. Extension 705 or email aprather@uspca.com Hey, welcome to the show. Thanks so much for coming on. I'm really looking forward to talking to you today. T

Thanks for having us.

you are in one of my favorite cities in the world. And I think one of the coolest food cities and it's probably been about five or six years since I've been up there and I'm overdue for another trip soon.

on trails the best.

I think it's been like 17 years ago. And I remember you know, Anthony Bourdain did like no reservations up there. And it was, they call that the most interesting or like, it was one of the places he featured. And then I think Bon Appetit Magazine, like that month also called it like the most European city in North America. And I was like, Oh, I really think I need to take a trip up there and went up there for my 30th birthday and eat ate my way through. But that was 17 years ago. And I know, it's changed significantly since then.

Yes, I mean, in every way, Montreal is different. You know, I mean, a, that it's the French speaking, you know, like Bastion, and like a sea of, of English. And, you know, like the here they do such, you know, I guess like they do so much the government does so much to protect the French language, to keep it the way it is to kind of keep it like keep it weird and different, I guess from everywhere else, which it very much is, but it's really interesting how the food scene also has like kind of evolved in a completely different way than everywhere else in North America. I think that like, you know, having had these roots in like, having been colonized by the French but also, you know, having had the British here as well, we have this incredibly deep and rich and old food culture, like Montreal is you know, 400 years old, it's, it's a it's significantly older than than almost all you know, American cities. You know, it has a completely different background as far as like, you know, where where the history of food comes from here. And thus people eat and drink differently here and always have

Can we start with a little bit of your food backgrounds like where like did you come up through the food industry? Have you always loved food and cooking?

My grandfather on my father's side was a butcher. And so he had like a butcher shop and my father kind of grew up like doing deliveries and stuff like that. And my both my grandmother's on both sides were just constantly churning out so much food and having like big family dinners and stuff like that. So it's definitely like a big connection of like family, comfort food, you know, all connected there. I didn't pursue a career in cooking initially. I I studied fine arts. And I, while I was in my undergrad, actually, I ended up getting swept up in the kind of political student movement there in Montreal here in Montreal, and we ended up starting with some of my friends and call it a, you know, co students, we started a kind of a soup kitchen, at the university, and that kind of took over my life a little bit for a few years. And that was really my introduction to cooking kind of on a scale where I got paid for it, and for other people, and it was really like to provide and provide something a service that wasn't available to a lot of students like to give, give them something like kind of nutritious and, you know, accessible and affordable, you know, that just didn't really exist at the time. So that I did that for a few years. And then from there, I kind of Springboard it into working in restaurants, which was I sort of I say that I kind of came in through the backdoor a little bit, but didn't really follow a traditional path. I didn't go to cooking school. And I really like, kind of immerse myself completely in that I would just sort of sponge off of every person around me, did a lot of like, deep dives into reading and YouTube was big for me. Yeah, so kind of when I jumped into the restaurant, rather than working in restaurants, it was like a whole different world for me. And you know, it was so exciting. And I ended up dropping out of school to kind of go deeper and deeper into into cooking.

That's definitely not a traditional path, especially starting with the soup kitchens. I think that's really neat. You know, like, you don't hear many people who kind of start their cooking career there. But, you know, it's interesting, because it gives you a different perspective, I think, coming into the culinary world, as opposed to like working through some high end restaurants that are going to culinary school at the beginning.

Yeah, it definitely was, everyone around me was really concerned with like food politics at a time where nobody was really talking about that in the mainstream, you know, talking about organic food, talking about sustainability, all these kinds of things that like, now just seem ubiquitous and normal that everyone should be concerned about them. But at the time, it was, you know, just sort of grassroots kind of activist student kind of culture, but it definitely, I would say it formed where it was coming from, and I definitely, you know, would see things from a different perspective, I think, than kids coming out of culinary school, you know, like, what kind of things were on the menu. Like, I remember the the most common thing you'd see on the menu was like Chile and sea bass. And I was like, this is literally an endangered species. What is happening?

Yeah, I still don't surf it. It's been like, you know, I think it disappeared. Thank God for like, 20 years. Yeah, it's coming back a little. And I just, I'm not even in the mindset of cooking it. I don't know, the last time I need it or cooked it. Yeah.

It's funny too. Because, you know, that Chilean sea bass thing. Like it wasn't even in like good restaurants. Like it might have been just so but everywhere. It was everywhere, you know, yeah.

They used to come in little, like individually portioned soup in bags, too, which I? It blew my mind. Even at the time.

Well, how about you, Ryan? What's your background? How did you come into the food world?

I started working in restaurants when I was 18. As a cook, actually, I like a chain restaurant. And I mean, I immediately loved it, like, you know, the, the camaraderie and how, like, you know, that intensity, and, you know, I have like, I constantly need to be in like a state of, like, extreme stress in my life. You know, and like, my whole world is about, like, balancing out this like, need to be, like, always stressed and, like, have a million things happening. So like, working in a kitchen working in a busy restaurant was like, just incredible. And then also, you know, being with so many awesome people and like getting to have so much fun at work. It was really a special thing. And, you know, eventually I thought that my people skills would be put to better use in the front of house. And so at some point, I moved after an incident where I spilled boiling hot soup all over myself in the kitchen, like a whole stock pot all over me off the stove. I don't think I've heard this story. Yeah, it was pretty good. I like I was like, took the huge dark pot off of the stove and in the prep kitchen, and I was walking around to fill the chafing dish. So the servers were like, you know, we'd like serve the like, portion their own soup with and as I turned the corner, like it was obviously like the floor was full of soup that the waiters had spilled. And I made the turn and then spilled the whole thing came on me I'd second degree burns all over my body. That was my last day in the kitchen there. And, and so I Yeah, Vijay. I started working as a waiter. And then, you know, again, I loved I loved the I just loved the restaurants. It was just like something was so special. And so my goal at first was to do restaurants, to work in restaurants to be able to like afford my education through university and eventually, yeah, it just became like, well, you know what, maybe if I just like drop out of university and but study wine. I could like be a restaurant professional, which is what I did. I ended up going to the Hotel Management school and studying wine pier in Montreal. And eventually was lucky enough to get a job working for some pretty amazing people. And, you know, the rest is kind of history, moved my way up and then eventually opened my own restaurant.

When did you open your restaurant?

I opened Nora gray in 2011. I've been working for like the five years before that with the job youth group. I opened up their second restaurant with them called Liverpool house. And then that's where I met Emma, quite early, who's my partner, Nora Gray, my partner Elena and my partner at the new restaurant G as well, along with Janice, like she's very Magennis to Janice, Janice. Well, no, that's not true. Janice came to work with us at Nora gray. But yeah, we've all we've all kind of worked together for a long time.

And you decided you wanted to go open another restaurant together?

We decided yeah. And then once you have to you kind of need three. So it was like the not, I mean, not exactly. But like, you know, the second restaurant was was really a special thing. And we had this incredible team that we put together, like insane ly stacked leadership management team. And truthfully, like, the only way that we could see us, you know, keeping that kind of thing together was to like choice to expand. We were talking you touched on like this, like issue of culture and stuff a little bit. I could like segue into that right now. When we open Elena in 2018. I think that the mindset had had already, you know, our mindset already began to change. You know, we're talking about, you know, me too. moment, I think that like, you know, there was when I my first restaurant or gray, like, we opened it, you know, in that like, okay, great, like, we've been running these restaurants for four years, we know that all you really need to do is serve great food and like, just destroy people with booze. And you can be successful, you know, and like, not to mention, like, consume as much as humanly possible yourself, or even like, as far in my case, like, in humanly possible amounts. And, and then like, you know, we kind of took that culture that we grown up in with us, Nora gray. And you know, the first couple years in Norway were pretty rough. Like, we were rough, I was a bad boss.

So yeah, Nora Gray was, at the time, when I joined them, it was like, I think they were in their second year, and they just celebrated their second anniversary. And it was, you know, we were still, I think we were just sort of at the tail end of, you know, restaurants being a wild, wild west kind of place, we're just kind of coming out of that. So it was still super fun and crazy. And we just had the best time all the time. You know, and but you know, like, there's a, there's another side to that, obviously, and there's a consequence of that kind of behavior and lifestyle. And, you know, and I think we, you know, at this at this point, now, it's like, easy to, like, reflect on like, how that was, like, horrible and terrible. But at the time, you know, that was just the culture everywhere. So, yeah, I mean, we all kind of I mean, personally, I stuffed I worked there, I worked at Nora for a year and then stepped away. And, you know, worked a couple other places. And then but we, before I left, Ryan was like, you know, we have plans, or we want to open another place. We want to open a pizzeria, we really want you to be there. And I was always making pizza for Starfield, just you know, because it was fun. And I liked it. We all enjoyed it. And it was just sort of an experiment every time. But yeah, it was sort of like, in the back of it, it was on the back of Ryan's mind. But it was kind of in the back of my mind as well that I would eventually, you know, kind of meet again and work on some other project together. And a couple of years later, we did. And that opening opening Elena, like Ryan was starting to say it was really, you know, we had an incredible team of people, like so much experience and a lot of people who were kind of like, at the point where they were, like, you know, we're done with the industry. This is this not for me anymore. I can't live like this anymore. And, you know, we kind of convinced them that it would be different and, you know, just one word, one word, or Jive one we're restaurant. And so we had a lot of people that were kind of, you know, on the on the edge of leaving, join us and bring they brought with them, you know, years there years and years of experience.

It was in that moment, we were like, you know, there's a better way to do this. Like, luckily, we were kind of young enough that we could see this happening. I had gotten sober a couple years earlier. And, you know, I was I was really ready to do something different, you know, like, the same, that same thing started to feel really tired, really boring. And like it was just so unhealthy. And watching people around us, you know, just like become destroyed, either, you know, like through like substance abuse, but also through like the culture, this insanely toxic culture. And, you know, we could also see that there was like a change happening with you know, the the kids that were working for us too. They didn't want the same thing that we wanted, you know, or that we grew up with, like they wanted something different. They wanted they had healthier boundaries. They had more clear ideas of like what was and wasn't acceptable? You know, I think that they wanted a more balanced lifestyle. And I think that like, you know, to an extent, I think diners wanted it to, you know, like, there's only so much of that, like, excess, like, more is more until you know, it's really not. And the truth is, like, when you're in that you kind of think it's the only way you know, but like, when you when you when you remove yourself from a little bit, and you look at it with a little bit of perspective, you're like, you know, it's really nice going for dinner and not having someone give you shots. You know, I mean, you know, it's really nice, like, like, sometimes, like not getting served an extra main course, like when you're already full, you know, I mean, like, and I'm not saying like, you know, we didn't want to be generous, I'm just saying, like, we just like wanted to like, like, be able to have restaurants that were fun and healthy, you know, and healthy. And like, every every way possible. I mean, like healthy in terms of like, the ingredients that we were using, you know, really like, like leaning into doing pizza in a different way which we can get into, but like healthy in terms of like a work environment, we wanted long term sustainability for our employees, you know, like, which we felt was like going to make a healthier business, which is absolutely true. And we wanted, you know, and we wanted, like a healthier lifestyle, ie like, you know, not the staff not, you know, getting, like blackout drunk every night. And so like, what we realized was like, it was it was an easy thing, if you start from the top, and you know, like, at the top, you know, like the owners aren't the ones providing or instigating the party all the time, and the management follows suit. And then the staff just kind of follows suit. I'm not saying they don't go out and have drinks. Like, they're, you know, of course, and they should, and they're encouraged to but like, you know, the culture isn't like, we're a family, like, let's get fucked up all the time together. You know, I mean, like, and then, you know, you create this, this really horrible environment where people feel that they can't leave, they don't grow, they don't learn, they're always hung over, you know, it's like, it's and then and then all kinds of bad things stem from that.

So have you seen like a better retention of employees, since kind of making that switch?

It's insane. Like, it's crazy. A, you know, the staff is, they're better equipped, you know, to do the job on a daily basis, as a result. They're not then again, like, I'm not saying the kids don't come in hungover. Like, like, they do. It's fine. Like, but it's interesting, because, like, you know, their kids, and they can handle it like a hangover. You know, I mean, but like, it's not like, it's not like an everyday like a daily thing, where it's like, every day is like that, you know, and that's when it starts to become really tricky.

But yeah, and it's not like drinking on the job. Because I remember my very first line cooking job, like my sous chef would sit in the office during service with a cocktail. And like, if the cooks wanted to go to the bar and grab, like a pitcher of beer, you could and like, literally drink beer on the line. And that was my first experience working in a kitchen.

For sure, for sure. I mean, that was every kitchen I ever worked in, you know, like, how is every Oh, sorry, every restaurant I've ever worked in, like, was like that, you know, usually I was the one, you know, supplying the booze. And like, and even, like, even supplying, like, I was the one like insisting, you know, so it's like, it is a totally different thing. And yes, the staff retention is is is nuts. I mean, it's part of the reason that we wanted to open up a third restaurant, again, like we had, like, this is pre pandemic. So like, we had this team that had been together for almost two years from the opening, you know, so the busboys needed to become waiters, and the waiters needed to become managers, or Maitre D's or whatever. And it was like, no one was moving anywhere. You know, like, once we'd like kind of cycled through, you know, the first cup like that first, you know, I don't know, when you open a new restaurant, there's always like, a, a team that, like, is like your opening team, and then that kind of, you know, they go off and, and like, you build like, you know, a more solid foundation, maybe after that, but, you know, we had, yeah, like, incredible retention, the, it's really truly been, like, an amazing thing. And it's still today is like that, because, like, you know, I believe the restaurants have like a DNA, right? Like, when they're created, they have their own DNA. And it's, it's interesting, you can try as hard as you can to, to change culture. But if you, when you when you start with, like a certain DNA, it's very difficult to completely changed that. And, and I'm not saying that you can't make it better. And there are adjustments there. You can absolutely always make it better. But like, when you start with an idea of like, you know, what, like, this is going to be a different kind of place with like a different kind of mindset, a different kind of environment that's in the DNA, it kind of permeates everything else.

And you kind of touched on a little bit and looking at DNA, how do you think about sourcing sustainability responsibility? You know, with other vendors and so forth. I know you like to use local seasonal, which a lot of people say they do, but what does that really mean for you?

Yeah, that's I'll jump on that a little bit. I mean, I'm sure Ryan has things he could say too, but that was also you know, same thing from the jump was like informing how we built the menu how we And, you know, how we decide what goes on the menu, you know, for me, as much as possible, obviously, we live in Canada, so it's not, you know, I don't have a greenhouse attached to the restaurant or anything like that where I can grow my own vegetables all year round. But as much as possible, like in during definitely during the summer season, the spring season and fall, we are working very closely with a handful of farmers and suppliers that are working with the same kind of ethos that we are. And a lot of those farmers are ex chefs, you know, who've decided to open did they, you know, they, they kind of understand the same kind of mentality that we have, where were they want to be serving vegetables that didn't come from California or from you know, overseas, I think a lot of Italian restaurants, at least, like up until the last 10 years or so. And even probably still now, you know, in order for it to be kind of worth its salt. As an Italian restaurant, you need to be using products from Italy. And I think, you know, we try to like kind of question that a little bit. You know, we live in Quebec. So what do we have around us? We have like incredible cheese, you know, the some of the best dairy and cheese in the country. And it's a huge, huge industry here. Like it's just like, there's such an amazing culture of like incredible cheeses. So why would we, you know, import cheese from Italy, you know, for everything like so there's there's a couple of products that we do use that our Italian, you know, that are that Ryan can talk about a little bit, but uh,

yeah, can I jump in? Because there's something like, I think to tie this all together. The idea of Elena at the beginning, was we're going to do natural ebb and pizza. We were really interested in this idea of like, like sourdough pizza. But if we wanted to make it like Neapolitan, like we want to make it like the pizza, like based on kind of the pizzas in Naples and like the Roman style Trattoria, where you have like a restaurant that has like antipasti, pizza pasta, as our like, as our as our base, but like with like an important style pizza, we thought like what makes an important pizza Great. In Naples? Well, the flowers from there, the tomatoes are from there, the cheeses from there, you know, I mean, and the ovens are built there. And so what people did for like 20 years or 30 years, I guess, is like important oven from Naples or from Italy, you know, import flour, double zero, which, ironically, is wheat that's grown in Canada, shipped, they're milled and then shipped back. So like your image, like it's like a crazy thing. So like you're importing and of an importing flour, importing tomatoes, and importing buffalo mozzarella. Okay, and olive oil. So we can't do all of those. So we import our own olive oil from our friends that make incredible organic olive oil from two different wineries that we're very closely associated with in Italy. But otherwise, oh, and tomatoes, we don't do tomatoes that or we don't do enough tomatoes, our growing season not long enough to like the right time tomato. So tomatoes come from California from Bianco. But like the flower comes from 45 minutes outside of away from the restaurant. You know, it's organic, local flower that's freshly milled for us. That's amazing. And that was like from day one, you know, and it was like let's develop a sourdough starter. That's ours. With like this with this base. Let's use this local flour. Let's have a local artisan biller oven in the style of like a, you know, a traditional Napoletana oven. But with like local materials, and because like if you think about Naples and pizza, it's it's really a product of the terroir, right? It is that way because all the things are from there. And it's always been done that way. Well, if you want to create great pizza, instead of importing and trying to recreate it, the idea was let's just make it a product of our terroir. And so Janice touched on the mozzarella, like the cheese. So like there's this incredible buffalo mozzarella producer here in Quebec. And so we use local Buffalo mozzarella, and we use you know, the tomatoes that we can that are as close as possible, and local flour. And we try and create something that's, you know, I mean, it tastes very nimble with time but it's all with local ingredients. And when you use that as like your kind of like Cornerstone or like the base idea or foundation of like, everything, everything else, every other decision goes that way to, you're like, Okay, what's the best thing that we can do without compromising? That's from here? Great. Let's do it. You know? Is there something local that we can get instead of this? Great, let's do it, you know, is there no way to get around Parmesan cheese? No problem. Well buy Parmesan cheese, you know, I mean, like, not to be like, we try and do things like the right way for, you know, our community and the environment. So it means working with like as many local chefs as possible. Janice does something amazing. Elena is a very busy restaurant, and especially in the summer season, like it's nuts. And so we can buy a lot, a lot of produce. And so what happened was, you know, we couldn't keep up like the small farmers we were working with, couldn't keep up with our demand. And so Janice started meeting with them in March, to plan full growing seasons for us for the following year. So that they would choose seed together. They would plan they would have a plan for like when like when things would grow and then what we could be allocated. Be like in the springtime like long before the ground even thought, so that we could start to like, really figure out from all these different farms, like kind of a way to get as much amazing local organic produce as we could get for the for like, the really busy season. And then in the winter, you know, yes, we have to import certain things from California, there's no question. But at the same time, like, you know, we do a ton of work preserving. So like, when we have an abundance of things, you know, like, we we have these amazing artichokes here that are great. And the growing season is pretty short. But like, we work super hard all the time to be like, you know, preserving like pickling, like things like artichokes, jardiniere, like all that kind of stuff. And all that stuff is like, nothing is groundbreaking. And but what I'm saying like, it's, it's not that original, but it's like, when you do when, like, the foundation is like, on like something that's like really good. And like holistic in terms of like, good for the community, good for the environment, good for then good for people when they eat it, actually, you know, because it's not processed. It's not like, you know, bleached, it's not hasn't gone back and forth across the ocean 123 times, it becomes like, something that you can, like, be proud to serve to your children to you know, and then you're yes, you're operating a restaurant, but like, you're at least doing it in a way where like, you know, it's helpful for like, or good for everybody.

Yeah, and it sounds like, you know, you do a lot of seasonal stuff there. I don't feel like a lot of restaurants of this style, do seasonal like most of the pizzerias I go to, it's the same toppings and everything year round. And if they have salads, it's like the same year round, and you don't see that as much in this type of restaurant, at least not where I am.

No, you're totally right. And I mean, like that was, that was something that, you know, was always part of our, our, like, plan, you know, we had this like idea that like, and this is this goes back to before Elena, that, you know, like with Noah Gray, where we were like, we want to kind of try and make food that like, is like the food that you serve that you get in Italy. So it's like, if you happen to be around, during, you know, like, winter season, like, put trails everywhere, you know, but then like, it's not around if you're not there in the right season, you know, I mean, like, people tend to use these like these products in like, like regionally specific products that are available in that moment. Like they'll, it's just like, it's everywhere, in that moment. And then it's gone. And it's gone. It's a little bit different now, I mean, people in, like in Italy, like they import a lot of stuff, too. But that's that was kind of like what the idea was. And so yes, we have certain things that are staples that don't change. But for example, like we do a mushroom pizza, it's always been on the menu since we opened, but the mushrooms change. Literally every season, every every like, even like a couple of weeks. There's different mushrooms coming on because we're using cultivated from here, we're using wild forage from there, we're using us in depending on what's around, and what's available. The toppings like the mushrooms completely changed, you know, we're not getting like the same button mushrooms from like Cisco. You know, like, we don't order like that, you know, like, it's just not how we do things. And what it creates is it creates a more exciting product for for the guests, right? Because like, if you love our mushroom pizza, when Sean Chelsea's in there, Shawn trails on it. Like that's pretty awesome. You know, it doesn't cost more, it's the same thing. And then it's also more exciting for the cooks too, because like they're always getting to work with different products. You I mean, like yes, it's it's the same thing. But like, it changes they get to handle different different things all the time, you know?

Yeah, I think I need to come up there and try some of your pizza. See, I've got a new cookbook out salad, pizza wine, I'm sure you'd love to talk about your cookbook. One of the things I like to ask when I have cookbook authors on is why write a book, it seems like a lot of work. There's obviously tons of good books out there about salad and pizza and not that yours doesn't bring anything new to the table. But I kinda like to put that out there just can't say why even go to what I would assume as a hassle to put a book out there.

Let's get existential really fast.

Yeah, I mean, the, the, the reason that we did a book was because of the pandemic. So during like the first kind of wave of you will have the pandemic post, severe original lockdown, like when things kind of start to get back to normal. We were like one of the first restaurants I guess, like Quebec had very, very, very restrictive mandates and rules about like being open. There was no dine in for almost a year in our restaurants, you know, everything was takeout. Not even outdoor, I don't think for the first year. And so we were like, you know, once we figured out how to do that, it worked out great for us. We were very busy, to be honest, you know, like we had a really, we were able to pivot really fast and we were able to like maintain and hire as many staff as we could. And but at a certain point like we looked around like the there was a friend of ours that had started up like a charity nonprofit. That was for restaurant workers that were out of work because of the pandemic because most restaurants weren't nimble enough or or had, you know, didn't have enough staff or whatever, to be able to like to open and to do takeout right away and So we decided to release a like a, an ebook, like a small digital cookbook to raise money for this charity, that would go to restaurant workers that were out of work. So they could get like, you know, 500 bucks, like a check or whatever, to like, tide them over between, like, you know, when they're like ei kicked in kind of thing. And so we put together this book, we had all these amazing high def photos from a photographer that we've been working with for like, you know, the Instagram account, and like the visual identity of the restaurant. And we kind of like raced through and Janice and staff who wrote the book, and Marley, who designed it was our partner, like, kind of put together this amazing 15 page like digital cookbook. And we sold like, you know, several 1000 copies for, you know, 10 or 15 bucks online.

With the first one, I think we raised $50,000. The first

Yeah. Wow. That's amazing. Yeah,

it was great restaurant orders.

So that was great. So once we had that, we were like, well, I mean, this is basically, you know, like a book pitch. You know, we had, like, we had proof of concept. We had like, actually, like a layout, and some recipes already done. And so we decided to shop it. And, you know, we were lucky and someone wanted to, you know, appetite for it's a division of Random House here in Canada, it's a cookbook publisher based in Vancouver, they wanted it. So that's how it happened. And to be fair, like, by the time we like, kind of sign that book deal. We had time, like we were our dining room was close, you know, it was like, it was basically like a pizza box storage, like a giant pizza box storage room. You know, I mean, it was like, there was like, nothing happening there. And we were doing like tons of takeout. But like, you know, just really pizzas and salad and wine. And we were like, we had we had like, the time we had the energy, we had the motivation to really sink into this, you know, that all evaporated when like dining rooms reopened and, like things got crazy again. But by then we were well into the process. So you know, it was kind of like, a perfect opportunity for us to like to do something. And like I said before, like, we love stress, and like we'd love to be like, like busy and doing projects. And so this was just like, the perfect kind of thing at that moment. You know, and also, you know, if you remember back to, like, you know, whatever, what is it like two and a half years ago, or three years ago, you know, there was like, feeling like, part of something or doing something and having like, you know, working on a project, like being able to like really, like dive into things like that. It was like Kai was very helpful mentally, you know, to it was like, it helped keep us all sane and Well, I think,

oh, yeah, I was gonna say that, I think that is the major silver lining of the pandemic was that so many creative projects came out of it. And even like the impact that it I would say that it had on on Elena is humongous. You know, like, we, it's a little bit shifted the DNA, I would say of, of how we operate even, like we've gotten even deeper, I would say on like, making sure that everybody's safe all the time. And you know, everything's all the decisions are made with everyone's best interest in mind. So yeah, it's, it's kind of awesome. It was an awesome product of that.

I found that you learn to cut some of the bullshit out, right? Like you have your business model. And it's like, this thing kind of wasn't working before. And then it really wasn't gonna work during COVID. And then you just like cut it loose, and then it never comes back. You know?

Elena certainly was like streamlined to like really like a bare bones, you know, kind of pizzeria at the beginning because we didn't have any staff. And the only thing people really wanted was pizza. And so we were lucky in that way that we had a product that people wanted that was like, you know, easily transportable. There was some precedent already about people doing takeout pizza. So it wasn't like, you know, reinventing, reinventing anything. Then there was a moment where I was like, Okay, now we have to actually like, do, we need to, like expand. And so Chris Cameron, who's our chef, and who's our pizzaiolo. At Elena, he developed a hoagie recipe. And we started doing hoagies as well during during that time, which, which stuck around we still do them at lunch now. Yeah, I

want to talk about hoagies I used to live in the Philly area. And I definitely really like hoagies as you know, not a Montreal thing. And I know in your book did did he go down to Vidya? Is that what it was? And yeah, and it brought that idea back.

He's obsessed with hoagies like that, they really remember that, like he was doing hoagies just because he was obsessed with hoagies he would make them for staff meal and he was just like, howling at it and it just like obsessed. And it just kind of like grew out of that I would say

totally and like Joe Joe is doing these, like the hoagies are so good. Joe is a buddy of ours and we went down to see him and we were like, that was right before the pandemic also and we were like oh man, like we got to like we should do this we should do this and it wasn't really like a thing that we were I think actually going to do but then you know again, like opportune Unity was there, we had the time we had the energy, we had the resources. It was like we had the space, we had all these things. And so that became part of it. And why we called it a hoagie. Well, because it's modeled after obviously, like a Philadelphia style hoagie. And no one here calls them hoagies. Here we do, we do some, I think we do sub submarine submarine sandwiches. So like, everything here is like a sub. And I know that sometimes we make Ogee we call things hoagies that are definitely subs. And we call things hoagies that are, are really just like, our sandwiches. But like, you know, we just decided it would be the umbrella term. And, you know, it did start out with like, like kind of a traditional, very traditional looking hoagie. And now it's morphed into something where we do you know, like, like, fried chicken ones and like, you know, kind of a little bit more like of a creative kind of take on a hoagie for sure. Like the

reception been with customers or people digging them. Yeah,

it's great. It's great. People love it. We do like a special we do, like we do like a traditional like, usually it's like mortadella or, like, you know, more or like appical like something like that hoagie. Like every every day. And then on the on the weekends on Fridays and Saturdays we do like a special one. And usually for the special one, there's like a lineup for it. You know, we'll announce it that morning. What it is, might be a meatball might be like a fried chicken with spicy honey, it might be you know, I don't know, they've done so many.

That sounds amazing. I'm a big dog, you got like, I could eat a hoagie every day. I mean, it's not really good for your waistline. Same with eating pizza. Looking at your cookbook, I know you love doing, you know, all naturally loving pizzas for people who get the book. If they don't want to get into making a starter? Can they still make pizzas using your recipes?

Yeah, there's definitely we we kind of acknowledged that that's, you know, that's a big endeavor, it's a big commitment. You know, it's kind of like getting a pet, a family pet, you know, you really have to commit yourself to it. So we did include a sort of non Lebbon version, like a yeasted version for both the Italian pizza dough and the Neapolitan. So it's totally possible to, you know, have a lower lower commitment level and still have a nice product.

It's never gonna hurt you to have that on hand and just make a ton of bread. But like, every time I've tried to do it, I just cannot keep it maintained. I should be making pizza or bread every day, but it's just like, I don't get the whole feeding thing done. And then it's not right. And I've gotten two more just like using yeast to get my dose going.

Yeah, I would say it might not be for the beginner, you know, like, why don't you try the try the Eastern version have a little success. And then you know, and then see the virtues of, of naturally loving and work your way up to it, I would say,

you're not going to make a natural oven pizza on a whim, you know, so it has to be something you plan. So you know, it's like, yes, you can make a yeasted you could do a use of one no problem. Like kind of, you know, with a little bit of, of of foresight, but then you know, for if you're gonna do natural love, and it's like you plan you plan to do it for an event or for like a thing or something, you know, because it takes a couple days. So it's it is it is definitely like more of a commitment. It is definitely takes more planning. But once it's done that, like that part, I mean, it's it's pretty much just as easy. Just you have to be a little bit more proactive.

Yeah, I mean, there's definitely a lot of pitfalls, there's a lot of things that can kind of go wrong when you're making pizza. So I think even like as as a kind of like a gateway thing to, for people to start with yeasted one, it's, you know, like get all your get all the kinks out, like get get to know how the dough feels, how to stretch it out, like, you know, you make your mistakes on something that's a little bit less time investment, then, you know, you build a little confidence. And then once you get to the, you get kind of a little more comfortable going. Because if you if he just went for the naturally loving one and had a failure, you would just kind of likelihood of us trying again would be a lot lower, I think you know, I have

a friend who has a natural love and pizza business here. And then another friend who does naturally leavened breads, and they said, You know what they see when they talk to people, as someone makes something, it doesn't come out really well. And then they switch recipes. And that's not the recipe that was the problem. It's just like you did the repetition, right? It's you. But you know, like you do and take good notes, you make your pizza dough, this time and it's too wet will add less liquid next time or it's too whatever, like maybe it needs more time, but like find a really good recipe, and maybe stick with that and just like take notes of what you need to do next time instead of like, oh, this recipe didn't work. Let's find a new one. It is probably you right? It's just the practice.

Yeah, there's there's it's just a tremendous amount of trial and error, I think. And there's a big learning curve, I would say and it's one of the it was one of the biggest challenges of writing the book was trying to kind of distill that for people in in sort of manageable chunks where people don't really understand and kind of get some insight on how that works. I have some sites that

I still don't stretch really well like I've been practicing for years and my dough just like my stretching game isn't down but I also live Have a good pan pizza. So I'm probably more likely to just throw a little oil in a pan and stretch my toe in there.

You know, that's why we have the Italian recipe in there, it's, I think it's actually something that's much better suited to make it home. Yeah, I'm also, like, pretty hopeless when it comes to stretching. But you know, like, at the end of the day, like, pizza should be fun. And like, the whole thing should be fun. And like, I have a hard time when I'm like cooking for the family if like, it doesn't turn out perfectly, so I get it, like I get really frustrated. You know, it's not like perfect, but at the same time, like pizza you know, like if you can include the family if you can include your friends and like doing it and like you make it like an event that's fun. Like it really should be, you know, like, pizza is fun, like are the pizzerias are fun, because it's a fun food to eat. You know.

I will say, though, that like I do cooking classes, and I got hired to teach. It was like a 10 year olds birthday. And I'd like 1010 year old girls and they wanted to make pizza from scratch. And that was like a nightmare. And all the parents showed up and we're just standing there watching it was in their home kitchen too. So like I brought my 40 pound baking steel. chuck that in the oven. Like you know, as soon as I got there, and they're just like, you know their sauce and I'm like, that's a lot of sauce. That's okay, I love sauce. And it's like hovered and just like overflowing as like I want I'm never going to do kids cooking classes. Again. I'm definitely not doing pizza off site in someone else's house. Like with my kids at home. Yeah, maybe not going to continue that as part of my business model, though.

Why we don't employ little kids.

We also have really cool recipes in there too, that are not salads or pizzas. I was drawn to the carrot recipe with like the carrot marmalade like That sounds delicious. And something that I'm going to tackle and I always love a good mostarda. So like a porchetta with like a mostarda That sounds great. So not just pizza and salad and wine.

Yeah, definitely. There's more, there's more to it.

Yeah, well, also, you know, when we open when we open the restaurant, the menu is a little bit broader, you know, so there was always like a, there was always like a protein, whether it was like chicken or steak or out of the like, out of the wood oven. We were doing things like that. And, you know, again, like the pandemic kind of, like, streamline the menu and that stuff fell off. But like, you know, when you're thinking about a cookbook, it's like, you want to be able to be the book that people can go to for like, multiple different occasions, you know, I think about the cookbooks that I love that I reach for all the time. And it's like, you know, a great example is like, like the six seasons cookbook or something, which is a great book and like, you know, it's like, I'll make a salad. From there. I'll make a pasta from there, I'll make like a chicken dish from there, you know? Because, like, once, once you start to, like, get into it, if you like the way that the like one recipe tastes, you know, it's like, it's easy to go down down the road. And I think that, you know, like, we know that like, it's like, this is not we didn't want to just do an exclusive pizza cookbook, you know, like Joe Vidya Dan, Dan Richter, like, richer, they did like really good pizza books. Like, we don't need to do a pizza book again. You know, it's like, part of what we do. Obviously, it's a big part of what we do. But you know, like, the restaurant is also more than pizza. So the book is a lot more than pizza.

I don't think I've ever seen a cookbook that has a Fuck, Marry kill section and either get like, points for being bold. I don't know that I always agree with your rankings, maybe killed the pine nuts, but

it's tough on now I'd kill the plants are too expensive.

And I want to talk a little bit about natural wine, like, I don't really know a lot about it. I know. It's something that's kind of popped the past couple of years and a lot of people talk about natural wine. So how did you decide to focus on natural wines?

It was something that, you know, when I started out, we didn't talk about natural wine, it wasn't like a term that even existed. And, you know, I was always really into like, very well, I mean, like, like a lot of people I came in through like the New World, you know, kind of like bold, easy things to understand. But very quickly, I became really, really interested in these like Old World wines. You know, I was drank a lot of Burgundy's and once from laoire, and there's Euro, and, and, as my tastes kind of evolved into like, seeking out these like, more and more kind of pure, more like traditional expressions of like, of terroir and of like sense of place in wines. You know, it was kind of at the same time that this like, this kind of this this movement was was sort of taking shape in France and elsewhere. And luckily, like luckily for me, I kind of, you know, was there at the beginning and became like a, like an early adopter. And then like, you know, a disabled who spread the word of natural wine. And for many years, it was like, you want to go uphill battles, trying to convince someone in 2010 to drink an orange wine, or trying to convince someone in 2010 You know, to like, have these like No, no sulfur wines that were super all over the place with like tons of volatile acidity, you know, and explained to them that they were better than they're like California Cabernet Sauvignon. I mean, it's like literally like apples and oranges but It was something there that I loved. I mean, I love the story I love the as I met the winemakers that were behind these wines, they really spoke to me, I love how passionate they were and how, like not not like self righteous, but like, they had this like almost like dogmatic approach like no like this is the way and then the only way. And really what they were talking about was like, you know, this thing that wasn't new, this is just a way to go back. Free industrialization of wine, pre industrialization of agriculture. So you know, like working without chemicals in the vineyard, first of all, so doing like organic, biodynamic, or more kind of farming, which is like, obviously better for the environment, obviously, like better for human consumption. And then in the cellar also doing the same thing. Because like, what people don't talk about a lot of the time is that with natural wine, or with or industrial, why I should say, even like a wine that's like certified organic, like there are like, hundreds of different things you can put in to your wine after you've harvested your organic grapes that are literally all chemical related, you know, and so you can have an organic wine that really has tons of shit put into that after the fact and there's no regulation on that. And so, you know, like the natural wine movement is to say, like, we just grew the best grapes, we could there represent the vintage and the place that they're from. And then we did as little as possible in the cellar, put it in a bottle, and we hope you enjoy it. And people that are really good at that those wines have like, I think like much more energy and much more depth than like a wine that's made conventionally. Because like a conventional wine that uses lots of yeast and lots of like, like uses like non Indigenous yeast. And that uses like sulfur dioxide, in large amounts, like it kind of new, like really actually just neuters the line. And it's no longer like, it's no longer alive, it's no longer really like evolving shape, like changing. It just kind of is like a beverage. And so I love this idea of like, you know, something that's like, like exciting and alive and like changes in that and that moves and like, it might not taste different, like it'll taste different from one day to the next. It's not always the same thing. That's very exciting.

Did they go off easily? Like, can you have problems with them,

just like with anyone you have the same, you have the same amount of risk for like, like, you know, certain certain problems. And then the only thing is, because they don't have any preservatives, they tend to not hold as long once they're open, you know. So it means that like though, they won't taste as good after opening, like the next day, often, you know, so it means that if you're working wines by the glass, things like that, you have to be a little bit more like on the ball with that kind of stuff. You can't just like, assume that it'll taste okay, you have to you have to kind of track the evolution, they evolve differently. And part of that is like amazing, because, you know, it's so fun to taste a wine like a day after opening to see where it's gone and what it is and where it's at. It might not taste the same, but it might taste a lot better. Whereas like we'd like conventional wine, it pretty much tastes the same or like bad. Like a day after, you know?

Where do you guys find inspiration and I'm not necessarily talking just in the food world, it could be anywhere what inspires you

I look at a lot of I studied fine arts and I take a lot of inspiration from like every creative outlet there is I would say I'm super into like fiber arts right now. And like music, you know, I played music also, with some with friends. I played in a few bands. So I feel like I draw inspiration from like, everyone around me who's doing something creative. I get so excited when somebody's like, into some kind of creative project. I just I find it just lights me right up. I think it's incredible. And dirt like in the in the all the seasons. Like as they change I get inspiration from like things that are becoming available. You know, when the first asparagus come when the first you know, Snow Crab come it's just like it's exciting, you know, and I find often trying to trace back like the inspiration for a dish sometimes is a little bit of a squiggly line, you know, sometimes I'll hear a podcast about some weird science innovation or you know, it's it's from fucking all over the place. But uh, yeah, a lot of it comes comes from the products themselves I would say and from the farmers that I now have developed we've developed these like amazing connections with a lot of a lot of other Rick restaurant restaurants in the city and restaurants in other places to like going to visit New York going to visit restaurants in Europe you know, once in a while when we're able is super inspiring for me.

Yeah, I was gonna say like travel, you know, Europe for me for sure, particularly Italy. I try and go as often as humanly possible. I really am very inspired by the like traditional restaurants in Italy. I love love the idea of like History and cooking and like, you know, just like sticking to like tradition and using like these, like, you know, local things. And

do you have anything you want to leave the listeners with before we get out of here today any parting words, words of wisdom, life advice?

Well by the book and food should be fine food shouldn't just be like making dinner or making a meal for someone should just be a chore, like, it should be fun for everybody. And that's it. That's, I would say, try to keep it fun.

Yeah, I agree with that. I mean, I think that like, definitely, like, we take our, the business of a restaurant seriously, you know, like, we want the business to be healthy. But we want the experience for everybody from the guest to the everyone on staff to be like, enjoyable and as fun as possible. And I would love to see, you know, more restaurants, like just not take themselves so seriously, and try and have a little more fun, it takes all the joy out of it, when you make it so serious, and there's nothing I want less than to go to a place and feel like, everyone's trying so hard to be like, so serious, and to be like, you know, at this, like, it just, it's it's not interesting to me anymore. And I think that it creates a creates really toxic environments, you know, when like, there's so much pressure on people to perform at such a such a, like an impossibly high level. And so, you know, I'd like to see the industry continue to evolve in like, healthier ways. And I think that, you know, that's kind of like the that's kind of, I hope, where we're going. Certainly, like with our restaurants, that's what we're trying to be, you know, maintain a really high quality and standard, but like, also, you know, give people a quality of life. You know,

yeah, I think happy employees and employees who have some say into what their work day looks like, I think they're gonna give better service the that's going to transfer over to your customers, and just that overall environment, you can feel it like there's nothing like going into one of those stuffy, formal restaurants where you feel like, you know, I slide my chair to go a bathroom, like someone's got to pull the chair out, let tediously Fold the napkin, by the time I come back, and everyone just feels like they're carrying that tension in their shoulder and neck like, that translates over to the dining experience, because I've definitely felt that as a customer. So I never,

I was just gonna say one of the I think one of our goals, like when we have guests come to the restaurant is that we make a connection with the guests as well. And that makes for like an extra special experience, not just a meal that you ate came you ate, you laughed, you know, it's creating some kind of memorable experience. And a lot of that comes from like, giving the opportunity for people to express themselves. And what's interesting about them, and that's what makes for like an enjoyable experience. And I think that's really what we tried to do with the book as well, like try to kind of communicate that same kind of energy. So hopefully people will respond to that. And you know, feel connected to something as well, like, that was kind of a big, as Ryan mentioned earlier would be motivation for us to create this book. And, yeah,

well, that's what drew me to the book, because you know, I have the opportunity to have a lot of cookbook, authors on the show. There's a ton of cookbooks out there. And as I'm kind of looking at them, it's like, what's the vibe? And does it seem like the people who wrote this book are also going to be fun to have on the podcast and not just, you know, want to shell they're kind of stuffy, like from their stuffy restaurant. So it translated over I got that so

yeah, the fuck marry kill really? Make sure that that you realize that we don't take ourselves that seriously, I

guess sets the tone. Yeah, it really does.

I'm glad that we got that in there. I can't believe that. I can't believe they put it in actually.

Thanks for coming on the show. That seems like an amazing place to pause this. We're going to promote the heck out of this book when it comes out. Everything will be in the show notes for the listeners and let's spread the spread the love around right.

Thank you so much, man, really a pleasure. And to all of our

listeners, as always has been Chris with the Chefs Without Restaurants podcast. Go to chefs without restaurants.org To find our Facebook group, mailing list and check database. The community's free to join. You'll get gig opportunities, advice on building and growing your business and you'll never miss an episode of our podcast. Have a great week.