The Cajun Vegan Krimsey Lilleth on Closing Her Restaurant, Writing a Cookbook, and Quitting Social Media

Chefs Without Restaurants, Episode 143 With Grimsey Lillith,

even if all you're doing is posting your own stuff, and you don't ever look at your newsfeed, that's still a pretty significant time investment. And I already felt like I don't even know I don't have, you know, a normal job. I'm just writing and sort of dabbling, but I still feel like I don't have enough time in the day. So and this is being off social media. But also I took note of like how I felt when I interacted with social media. And for the most part, I felt mostly, like drained, or that I had just become a temporary zombie and then snap back. And I was like, where did that 40 minutes go? Or even sometimes six minutes, like six minutes is important to me. Life is short. But I would say that when I take a huge step back and look at my experience, overall, I'm like, Whoa, how many hours days weeks months, I have no idea how much time has been sunk into this weird imaginary world

Welcome to the Chefs Without Restaurants podcast. I'm your host Chris Spear. On the show. I have conversations with culinary entrepreneurs and people in the food and beverage industry who took a different route. Their caterers research chefs, personal chefs cookbook authors, food truckers, farmers, cottage bakers, and all sorts of culinary renegades. I myself fall into the personal chef category as I started my own personal chef business perfect little bites 11 years ago. And while I started working in kitchens in the early 90s, I've literally never worked in a restaurant. This week, I have Krimsey Lilleth. She's the author of the Cajun Vegan Cookbook and was the owner of Krimsey's Cajun Kitchen, the world's first vegan Cajun restaurant. Unfortunately, due to COVID Clumsy made the tough decision to close her North Hollywood restaurant in the spring of 2020. She knew she wanted to share her recipes with her fans so they could recreate their favorite dishes at home, which is what inspired her to write her first cookbook. On the show, we talked about all that, how she opened a restaurant and the decision to close it. I also wanted to hear about the process of writing a cookbook because I'm sure that's something that a lot of you have probably been thinking about. And it's something I'm kind of interested in. Who knows, maybe I'll get that done one of these days. But one of the main things I wanted to talk about was clemencies decision to leave Social Media. Today, it seems like you have to have a strong social media presence if you want to have your business succeed. But it's definitely a double edged sword. How much of your time is being taken up by it? Does it really matter at the end of the day? Wow. 42 People liked your photo big deal. So this was a discussion I really wanted to have with her. How's her life changed since making the decision to delete all of her social accounts? I'd love to hear what you think. Are we all just caught up in the hamster wheel and it's a huge waste of our time, or is it really helped your business grow? Maybe you've made some really great connections. I'd like to think so many of my listeners out there I've become friends with because of Instagram. So I don't know I'm kind of torn. And I want to remind you all that if you want to support the Chefs Without Restaurants podcast financially, you can go to patreon.com forward slash Chefs Without Restaurants. Support tears start at just $5 a month. And I'd really love to give a shout out right now to our newest supporters, Chef Steven lash of blue duck eats and Robert chan of global dinner table. Thanks guys. And the show will be coming up right after a word from this week's sponsor. COVID has redefined the world of dining. While the pandemic certainly up into the restaurant experience the personal chef industry experienced record growth. The United States personal chef Association represents nearly 1000 chefs around the US and Canada and even Italy. US PCA provides a strategic backbone that includes liability insurance, training, communications, certification and more. It's a reassurance to consumers that the chef coming into their home is prepared to offer them and experience along with their meal. USPC A's annual conference is scheduled for July 7 to 10th at the Hyatt Regency in Sarasota, Florida. For those who supply the industry it's a chance to reach decision makers and the actual buyers of products. You SPCA is currently seeking exhibitors. If you're interested in reaching the decision makers and consumer calm marry influencers. This is your show. Please get in touch with Angela at 1-800-955-2138 extension 705 for your custom exhibitor package today. This will be the first time back following the COVID lockdowns and chefs are anxious to connect with industry suppliers. And now on with the show. Thanks so much and have a great week. Well, I usually start the show kind of talking about a culinary backstory, I want to know, you know, how did you come into food? Like, did you grow up in a household that loved food? Were you always cooking at home? And then kind of how did you get into the restaurant business?

Well, growing up, we did love food. But um, for most of my childhood, I was a part of like a big blended family on both my mom and my dad's side. So mealtimes were more like, Ah, it's time to eat, and then everyone come in and like gets, they would get their scoop. And then, you know, seconds were first come first serve. So we were all trying to like eat as fast as we could to make sure we got more Beanie Weenies, or whatever we were eating. And it wasn't until I was in my mid 20s, that I started really appreciating cooking. To me, going out and grabbing something for takeout or cooking at home, were kind of the same thing. And then things really started to shift for me when I started having to care for I took custody of a 12 year old. And I thought like the way that I'm eating isn't really, it's not good for a kid also, you know, maybe it's not good for me, I should really like shape up. And that's when I started learning how to cook and like realize that fresh herbs are delicious. And you know, vegetables are good and stuff like that. But it was it was pretty, pretty not great before that. It's kind of amazing

how taking care of someone really makes you reflect on like, how you should be taking care of yourself.

It's true, actually, you know, not to get on too much of a tangent, but some of the best decisions I've made for my life where I've had to, you know, end a relationship or make a hard decision. I think about her and I'm like, what, what would I hope that she would do for herself and it helps me have more compassion for me.

It'd be nice if everyone could kind of realize that, even if they didn't have someone to take care of like, Why does it take getting to that point? You know,

it's weird that it took someone else to take care of someone else to take care of myself. But you know, I'm I'm still thankful that I I started doing it at some point. But it would be great. I agree if everyone could find a way to do that without having to have a kid.

And you grew up in Louisiana. Hmm, how long are you there?

I lived there until I was about 22. And then I graduated college and I moved to Texas for my first job.

So what was your first job? Where did you get in food? Or were you doing something other than food?

Well, technically my first job I was a junior lifeguard at a water park when I was 13. There's this water park outside of Baton Rouge called Blue Bayou. And I haven't been there as an adult, it'd be interesting to go back but my first you know, quote, real full time job with a you know, degree under my belt. Not that that really matters anymore, especially but I was a I was an engineer for the oil and gas industry. I I want to being a project manager. So I was just managing like the design, engineering construction from a high level of these facility build out projects.

Well, I don't have any concept of like, what that would be like that's far removed from like anything I think I would have ever done.

To be honest, I really enjoyed a lot of parts of that job. It's just that when I realized global warming was real, you know, I had to take a step back and sort of ask myself like, is this fulfilling? How long am I gonna be able to do this job that's going it's it's directly in opposition with how I think that we should be living our lives. But I mean, it was so cool. I saw so much cool stuff. I did a year and a half of the field like working on oil rigs and stuff and operating wells, printing them. It's not like I was in there like slinging chain or whatever. But I was on site and got exposed to all different kinds of people. And you know, jobs. And it was it was really great. If it wasn't all about oil, I'd probably still be in that job.

And the restaurant was I guess the cookbook is a vegan book. So I'm assuming you've been a vegan for a while.

Yeah, what if I was just like, No. But yeah, no, I never know.

I mean, I guess you could be a meat eater who opens a vegan restaurant.

It's totally true. I think, you know, especially these days, there was a time where you would only open a vegan restaurant if you're vegan, because it's such a sacrifice, you won't make any money. But these days, the demand for vegan products is through the roof. I could see why a mediator would do it. But no, I went vegan when I was 20. And I was in I was living in Baton Rouge. I was in college. I had actually just got married. So my husband was like, oh my god, are you serious? And he wound up you know, he went along with it for a little while. We're not together anymore, but that's not why. Yeah, so maybe you can when I was 20 and then I was about 30 When I opened the restaurant. I think I once I took a step back from my, my oil and gas career. I was like, Oh, well, I don't what do I do now? I have no idea. And it was just something that I liked. I had started a food blog just before I quit my job. So naturally, I poured more energy into that and just like creating recipes and stuff like that,

what were some of your favorite resources at the time? Like, if you didn't grow up being a vegan, and weren't like trained in a culinary school? Like, how did you learn vegan cooking,

I basically just picked some random cookbooks on the internet and was like, ah, and just started making them and I it's funny thinking back about when I was learning to cook, how serious everything felt, just like you know, one teaspoon and you know, and I was weighing things. And that makes me chuckle now, but it's how I needed to learn that way. Because you you know, you learn the difference between one teaspoon of salt and something or two teaspoons of salt in something when you you make an Oopsie. But yeah, there's basically just picking up a cookbook. When people don't know where to start. I'm just like, find a cookbook.

So you didn't go to school to be a chef. You it sounds like you didn't come up necessarily through the ranks of the kitchen. But then you ultimately opened a restaurant so like, bring me up to speed. How did that happen?

Um, yeah, that's a great question. Things happen seemed to happen slowly. And like all at once, I just, I had this crazy idea in my head that I could make food and it started small. So I was I was writing recipes and I leaned into the Cajun thing because I was doing food pop ups and writing recipes and, and hosting these like taste testing parties. And people really were interested in the Cajun stuff like gumbo, jambalaya, cornbread, they wanted all that vignette days. So I was like, Okay, this is what the people want. Let's do that. And I started packaging, dry mixes for jumble and cornbread, and continue doing festivals and catering and pop ups. And then at some point, I was like, I'll just look and see about restaurant spaces. And it wasn't like four months later that I was signing a lease. And you know, you just now the momentum is going I'm like, Oh no, I guess I'm opening a restaurant. And I just sort of tried to figure it out as I went and so much work. Well, how

did you even start doing like popups and catering in the first place? Like, what was your first event that you did that you got paid to do?

The first event that I ever did was the biggest event that I ever did. It was? Yeah, vegan street fair. I had just started doing a dabbling in in serving people food. And I wasn't charging anyone for it. I was just like, I don't know, can I cook? Let's see. And then registration open for that. And it was in like a couple months. And I was like, You know what, whatever, I'm going to sign up. And I have two months to figure out how to do an event. And you know, we're pretty well, I just I had this like 18 gallon cast iron pot that I made jumble ly out of and we just made big batches of like one thing. And that is how I survived my first large event. I think there were like 20,000 people in attendance. And we had a line the whole day. And I thought like this is easy. It's not. But that was such a great first event because it showed me that if you have something good and you can put it in front of people, then that's that's basically it, you know, the rest is is all details. But if you're sharp and you pay attention, you can just sort of make it better as you go along.

I don't think I would tackle that. I don't I mean, maybe it's the lack of knowledge, right? Like you don't know how bad it could have potentially been right? Like, I know, and I wouldn't have done it exactly like today. Like even today with all my knowledge and experience in this business. I'd be like no way, but I guess maybe going into a kind of blind like, Sure. What's the worst that can happen?

Yeah, I mean, that was kind of my attitude. I was like, Well, if it goes very poorly, then I guess I'll quit. I don't know.

You can refund money. You can say sorry. I ran out like whatever. They're not gonna run me out of town with pitchforks.

Yeah, and I think that, um, I wasn't sure like what vegan customer base was going to be like, it turns out though, pretty great. Overall, you know, I think I hear horror stories about like, people being picky or having opinions about stuff. But for the most part, the vegans that I served in the restaurant before the restaurant, they're just like, wow, we love it. We're so glad to exist. And yay, you know, it was like all thumbs up all around.

So you opened your restaurant in LA. Is that right? Yes. In North Hollywood. Nice. So how did you get out to LA?

I kind of just decided I wanted to go there. After I quit my job, a few other things happen. That just freed me up to where I was totally like, I mean, I was even staying with a friend and I was like, I guess I can do whatever I want now. And so I just I packed up my car, took my dog and I crashed with my sister for a bit. She was in LA she's she was in a band at the time. She's still she's a solo artist now but so yeah, I just thought like, I don't know. So try like, you know, I'm doing air quotes, but starting over in a way, and it turned out to be really fun. I just I've so many cool things to do in LA, so many different types of people with with really interesting opinions on things. And I Yeah, forever grateful.

So your restaurant was a Cajun vegan restaurant? How long did you have the restaurant open?

In total a little over three years. But there was about six months into being open, we moved spots, we were in a super tiny spot, and we just outgrew it. So we moved over.

And then COVID happened.

Yeah, um, you know, I tried to be like, sensitive when talking about COVID. Because I know, it was really terrible for a lot of people, but like, quite, you know, for, for me, it was one of the best things that has happened to me in a long time. And I'm saying it kind of, you know, you know, I know. But

I've said the same thing on your show, because, thankfully, no one in my family or close to me has gotten sick or died. And, you know, it was for me a time to refocus spending, allocating more time to family, kind of streamlining my life, focusing on what I really wanted to work on and grow and just kind of shuffling off the stuff that wasn't important. So I totally understand that as well. And yes, you do kind of have to tiptoe around that. Yeah, we're still in the throes of it, it could bounce back and get really bad.

Yeah, scientists not COVID.

To hear that.

Yeah. So I'm, you know, I now have a better understanding of kind of what it's like.

So you ended up closing the restaurant during COVID? Correct?

Yeah, yeah, I closed. Um, we were pretty early in, like, deciding to make sort of rash decisions on how to handle things. So whenever that the hysteria first started up, we were already doing takeout only, like, people were confused, they would come up to our door and be like, Why are you open? And we're like, well, there's this virus, you know, and we sort of had to explain ourselves, and it kind of pissed people off sometimes. So we did a few weeks of that. And then things started to get really crazy, where like, businesses were actually shutting down. And you know, everybody's like, what is happening, you couldn't find mass. And I was like, You know what, let's just, we don't need to be open. You know, everybody has like, a lot of paid time that they can use, or if they don't, like, I'll cover it, the employees are going to be fine. Customers will find somewhere else to eat, let's just take a break. So we closed temporarily for a few weeks. And during those few weeks, I was like, Oh, my goodness, I have to close this restaurant. Like, this is just, this isn't working for me. And it's very clear. And I have to do the hard thing and like, shut the doors. Despite it not being like a clearly logical decision. Everyone else, everyone tried to talk me out of it for the most part.

So when did you know like in your heart that it was time? Like was there a moment where you're just like, this is it and I've just decided, and nobody can change my mind?

I think there was it kind of came in two parts. I think that like when I locked the door up for closing temporarily, I kind of had this sense of relief that I didn't know how to identify yet, but I just I think I knew then but I didn't really know know, until this probably like a week and a half in and I just I had a day where it just hit me. And I was like crap. And I you know, I cried a lot. And I was like, maybe I could, you know, and I thought it tried to think of all these ways I could make it work. And just, you know, I'd already been down this road many times, like trying to find all the solutions to problems that would probably never go away.

And then hindsight, are you still comfortable with that decision? Like do you feel like that was the right decision? Yes, yes,

I'm, I'm beyond just being comfortable with that. I'm really proud of that decision, because I made it quickly. And, you know, I didn't, I just didn't drag my feet. And I did and I was very, I tried to be as clear as possible with my employees, and even like our guests and customers, like, people were kind of shocked. And I'm just like, well, you know, I'll be as open as I can about it. This just isn't working for me. It's an you know, there were there were like some minor efforts to like, do fundraising stuff. I'm like, no, no, no, no, you know, I gotta close this restaurant piece, you know,

what I mean? It's a it's a business. But so many people are not business minded. Like they get really emotional in it. It's super emotional. Like I have businesses already hard to close, but I really respect people who can kind of look at it from like, a realistic standpoint and say, like, this is not I'm not happy it's not serving the function that I set out and it's just like time to move on and just kind of like, cut it instead of like a long death. I mean, a lot of people are still going to be closing who've been hanging on I think for two years now and they would have been better off mentally and financially if they had just cut it. You know, back last April May.

I think that was a primary driver in why I made the decision so quickly. I had this fear You're like, well, do I close now? Or do I kind of, you know, flounder in it for six months or years? Let's just, you know, I know what I need to do here.

So what are you doing now?

Well, now that the cookbook is out, that took up a lot of time last year, but I'm also just writing so I'm writing a second cookbook, which is more in line with the way that I eat personally these days. I mostly like unprocessed whole food kind of stuff, you know, heavy on the veggies and, and so I want to write another one that's more in line that way, the KGB cookbook is very indulgent. And is kind of like a special occasion thing for me. But I'm also so I should I showed you I'm reading the the throw journals, I'm also rewriting Walden or I call it like revising, editing. Because it's my favorite book. But there's a lot of it in there that just like very distracting, not only because the language is older, but because, you know, from a woman's perspective, there's a lot of like, you know, men do this, and men shall do that. And, you know, it's just, it's fine, but it's distracting. And I think that it doesn't need to be.

So you're rewriting a version of that book?

Yeah, I mean, I'm trying to stay very true to his voice and his message, which is why I'm reading his raw journal entries just to like, you know, who is this guy? And how does he speak and what's important to him? But yeah, so I'm just going through chapter by chapter Walden and giving it some, you know, modern day love.

Now, is that something that you're hoping to get published?

I surely hope so. Because Walden is a book that a lot of times is given to school kids to read. I wasn't I read it first time as an adult. But I think that giving schoolchildren a book like Walden, and being like, here you go, it's an amazing book, and you should learn all about it, but not addressing the fact that it contains like some, some little bits of misogyny here and there. And like, you know, he was very vocal about the slave trade and how he didn't approve of that. But he doesn't seem to apply the same empathy to the opposite sex. And so I think about like a young girl reading this book, and maybe not even realize what's happening, but like, it seeps through, and you pick up on those messages, and I think it'd be cool if we're gonna have a school, a required reading books like this, that it just be, like, completely accessible and useful to everyone equally.

It's really hard to read some of those books and overlook that I know what you mean, it's very distracting, like, you get caught up on those things. It's even the same with like, watching old TV shows and movies, like, especially now like, you know, I'm a child of the 80s. And I love showing my kids stuff. And I have to watch a movie, like, all the way through before I show them because you're like, this didn't age well, like, I remember it. I remember in my mind really fondly, but like, this is not going to be okay. Even though it's like PG. It's not even, like, raunchy stuff. But you're like, that's not really good. Yeah, just things

you don't want to plant that seed, you know, and we these are tough, because you can't really edit them. But with a book of beauty of a book is someone can go back and sort of tweak things to just make a little more sense now that we know more, and we've lived more as a species.

I think that's really cool. I do want to circle back to your first cookbook. What was the process like? Like, I've never written a cookbook or tried to tackle that? No, I, you know, I'm lucky if I can write my recipes down and get them like I have rough guidelines. But not everything is like hardcore, weighed and measured. Yeah, all over the place. I don't know some things I meticulously have weighed out in grams. And others are just like, a mess of ingredients and method, but like, you kinda have to figure it out. I actually had a woman. I started blogging in 2009. And those posts are still up. And I had a woman email me literally last week about a post from 2014. And asked me if I could walk her through it and there was no matter or anything. I was like, really, you know, and she just like, had Googled something about prime rib, and I've done this recipe with a prime rib, and she wanted to know what I did. And I'm like, I'm really sorry, that was seven years ago. Like I was, like, I have no, yeah, I wish I'd put ingredients and measurements down but we're not there. But yeah, writing a cookbook, what was that like for you?

Well, like you alluded to, I think a lot of times shot we don't really like when I'm cooking myself not writing recipe I'm just playing around but so when you write a cookbook, it becomes more about stopping your process and going like okay, one teaspoon of this and then I'm going to add another teaspoon, half teaspoon later I have to stop and edit. I think actually the the recipe writing process is the biggest drag on my fun times as a chef more than anything else. But it's it's kind of like a necessary evil because I view it as a way to capture what I'm doing on the fly. I give someone else a template to use to learn for themselves kind of like how I learned to cook. But I've also considered, I'm still sort of like in the weeds on the second cookbook as far as details, but I've considered writing a cookbook with no measurements. But being very clear about like, here's how you know if it's enough, or you know, if you're adding herbs like this much for a pot of this would be great like with a photo of how much herb I'm putting in, to sort of give people the confidence to be able to try stuff on their own.

I think Shawn Brock's first cookbook was like that, where it was like to check it out. Yeah, check it out. I feel like it was a very loose guide. And also like, an I use, you know, this kind of country him and I realized people all over the country don't have country him. So if you don't grab some produto. And I was just like very like offhandedly like understanding that his cookbook was so to the region of like Charleston and like, so many of those ingredients wouldn't be available. So like, here's how you kind of wing it and freestyle, but I don't think there's measurements for everything in that cookbook.

Yeah, I mean, I think there there are some things for measurements are very important. Like with baking, that's not really the style of cooking that I enjoy that much. Anyway, that's too sciency for me. So I think most of the things that I make could be very easily turned into recipes with no measurements,

what were some of the hardest Cajun recipes to make vegan, were there anything that was really challenging, that started to skew kind of far from the original or meat laden versions,

not so much. I think veganizing it wasn't the hard part, the hard part for me was kind of what we're just chatting about was the baking part, or like working with DOS, because that's not something that comes naturally to me or that I particularly enjoy, but I did want to be able to provide an authentic king cake and authentic vas. So I spent a lot of time you know, just tweaking those and trying to figure out what I was doing wrong. And but you know, the result is now I've got this recipe or I have a few recipes I'm really proud of

well, and were these recipes you were all serving in your restaurant that you like had some so it wasn't like starting from scratch. Like you were literally already. Yes.

Yeah, I think all of the important ones were already I had already done for the restaurant. And important ones. I mean, just like you know, kind of the classic like jumble like gumbo, collard greens, all the things people think about when they think of Cajun food. Yeah, so the hard part was done. Well, I thought the hard part was done. But they also asked me to take photos and I was like, Sure, no problem. And then it turns out food photography is a job on its own.

Did you did all the photography yourself?

I did. Yeah. I think this is another example of like, had I known how much work it would have been? I don't know that I would have. So you know flippantly said yes. But in hindsight, I am glad I did X and I have this cool new skill.

Yeah. So are you gonna photograph that the second book?

was a great question. I don't know, I thought about it a little bit. Because I'm still not to the place where I'm like, Okay, here's everything. Now I just need photos. I think I probably would photograph it myself, I think I'm just I'm a little bit of a I just I have an exact vision for what I want everything to look and feel like and it's really hard to, to hand that off to someone else. But I will say that I'm working on this cookbook with my blue star press team, they, they were a great example of how someone else can make your product better. So I don't know, I'm open to working with a food photographer. If like our styles Jive or something, you know,

I'd love to tackle someday I have so many recipes. I could probably just go through my blog and like pull up. Yeah, the greatest hits. And, you know, maybe start with like a 12 page PDF that like I sent him, like customers for free to just kind of see how it goes. Like, that's kind of how I started something to do in my free time. Right?

Yeah, yeah. Um, no, I think you would, you would be great at it. And I think that the only thing that we kind of stink is the disruption of your cooking process and having to stop and write stuff down. But it's not hard. It's just kind of annoying. And you could totally do

that. And I've done a decent amount of that, like with the whole blogging thing. And also, you know, I've run a big kitchen. So before I had my personal chef business, I worked in corporate food service, where we were cranking out 1000 meals a day, like we had to have hardcore specs for everything. So like, I had to, you know, write recipes for my cook. So I had like a very small, like me, and my sous chefs would like, decide what we wanted to make, we'd make it and we would meticulously take notes. So I do have that part of my brain where it's like, I can really nail that down and write this down. And I love weighing things in grams, like getting super anal. Because it's like, what's, what's between a third and a quarter cup, right? Like sometimes like you have this, like, it's, that's too much, that's too little. It's like, well, it's easy to say it's like 52 grams, you know, it doesn't have to be 25 or 50 or 75. It can be like 47 grams, you know?

Yeah, exactly. I feel the same way about like chopped onion, for example, when a recipe says like one onion, I'm like, how much? How much should it be? You know, so like, in my cookbook, I was I was very, my, my editor tried to be like, do we need this part? I'm like, yes, just about, like, if I say, a one cup of half inch diced onion, I in parentheses, I'd say, you know, roughly one medium onion, or whatever that is. And they were like, I think he could just say, one medium onion. And I'm like, Absolutely not.

I talked about this, I think on another podcast, one of my cookbooks, I don't remember what it is. But it's something with like a grilled zucchini. And I think it says that, like, you're gonna grill the zucchini for six minutes. And I think it ended up taking me like 25 because, you know, like, they're probably like a Michelin star restaurant getting these like, you know, heirloom babies zucchinis or something. But like, I go to like the grocery store and get these giant ones. But yeah, like, that's the thing, if you're not a professional cook, or chef, like there's people at home who I'm sure like, we're serving raw zucchini because they're like up six minutes, it's done. You know, and I think you need to kind of guide people and realize, like, a lot of people buying cookbooks are not professionals. And you have to kind of walk them through that. Well, even

at the restaurant, I think that owning that restaurant was a great experience for learning how to write a recipe that was thorough, almost like writing computer code or something like if a computer eats this code, is it gonna give me what I want? Or was I not clear enough? So you know, and pretty much no one that we hired at the restaurant had like a culinary background, we were just, you know, the average people, anyone who was like, I love your restaurant, I want to work here. I'm like, can hold a knife? Sort of, okay, great. Like we can teach you the rest. So all the recipes. Over time, I learned how to write a recipe that wasn't confusing, and was super clear to the point of almost being annoying.

How'd that work out with you with your staff? Because I found that sometimes hiring people who were like a clean slate was actually better than people with inherited bad habits. Like, were you happy with doing that bringing in people and training them yourself?

I loved it. Um, I would say that almost all of the time, it worked out. And you know, starting with hiring people that have a level of enthusiasm for what you're doing in general. So you know, not shockingly, a lot of them were vegan, not all of them, but did attract a lot of vegans. And, yeah, just coming in with a clean slate means that, like you said, they don't have bad habits, but also they don't have these like, habits picked up that are somewhat of a formality that I don't necessarily find important for what we're doing. And I'm nothing specific is coming to mind to me right now. But, um, we had one or two professionally trained chefs where I was like, Oh, it's fine. You know, a rough chop is fine. In this case, or, you know, we do the rule like this. And this works out and it saves about 15 minutes. So things like that.

I'm gonna save and like, I don't have employees now. But I have to hire like, I'll bring on friends and stuff. Like once I cook for more than 10 people and like, I had someone with me one time, who kept calling me chef, which I thought was really in the context of like, You're a friend and appear and I've known you for so long, like, yeah, call me Chris. Right? But like, every two seconds is like, where do you want? Like, do you want the protein at six o'clock or seven o'clock. And like, it was like, very, like they came from like, formal restaurants. And I'm just like, just get it on the plate. We have like 12 dinners, you gotta get out. It's like, right about here. And I would point but it was just, I mean, it's nice that they were super concerned, because it's my business, but it was just a level of like, No, we don't need that. It's just like, you know, sauteed spinach. And, you know, you'll know when it's done, right? Like you're a cook when it's done. Like, you don't need me to test it. I trust you like salted, I'm sure it's fine.

For all the times where someone wanted to be more formal than we needed. There were also a lot of times where, because we're not. It's a group of not professionally trained chefs, a plate would try to make its way to the dining room. And I would you know, just casually look over like No, no, you turned back to the kitchen. You know, I mean, but I found that kind of endearing. Like we're like a home cooking kind of place run by people who love being there and love what they're doing. So you know, the occasional like, slop you played is like well, it still tastes good.

Do you think you would go back to either working in a kitchen or maybe opening another place? Or is it too soon?

I don't know. I you know, no, it's definitely not too soon. I mean, a month after closing, and I was like, I wonder, you know, if I tried it this way next time. But you know, I always come back to like, No, it's not for me. And I think a lot of that just has to do with my interest very wildly across time, and across segments of time. So like, right now I'm really into this book I'm writing but that won't last forever and I want to do something else. And the same thing kind of happened with the restaurant at a certain point. I was like, I've learned all I can learn here and now I'm just running this business and that's not really fun to me. I think it takes a certain type of person to day in day out go in and just keep keep everything on the rails. You know, I was more of a like, I would like to just paint you a pretty picture and then walk away and even in the restaurant I so I was mostly involved in just like helping keep the restaurant running properly, and dealing with just everything except the kitchen. So there were a few people that I trusted in the kitchen with the recipes. And for the most part, I was just kind of, you know, like, every now and then I peek over shoulder make sure we're still chopping the green onions the right way. But man, they really those people cared a lot. And yeah, that crew was really special. They, they didn't even need me,

it's a big move to like, when you go from that role of like Chef to restaurant tour, and I've never owned a restaurant, but I have been in places like that's a totally different leap, like to just and hard if you are someone who loves being a practitioner, like a lot of us get into cooking, because we like cooking. And then as you move up, you move out of the kitchen. And that's hard a lot of times, which is kind of why I started doing what I was doing, because it's like, I want to be cooking as much as I can. But like, I can't work as a cook in a restaurant, like it's just not what I want to do. So like figuring out what that look like for me.

Your story is really cool. Um, it actually it prompted me to sort of think about like, is that something I wouldn't want to do, because it's floating around the back of my mind, I've never really given it that much attention. Like, being a personal chef, Chef, or, you know, some related category of thing. I think, for the most part, I just sort of put down making food for other people. And I haven't, I've been too scared to pick it back up

on it's fun because I get to change my menu like every day. So I don't get bored. Like I don't like that repetition of working in like working in your restaurant. There's only X amount of dishes you do, and it's like always going to be caged, and it's always going to be vegan. Like that kind of repetition bores me, I'm just not interested in it. Like, even if I literally, if I mastered every single dish, it's just like, I can't do this anymore.

Yeah, yeah, I still don't really even want to eat a hush puppy or anything.

You know, but some people love that. I mean, there's those restaurants that have been around like when I think of the restaurants I went to growing up there like the family restaurants that had been, you know, like third generation 40 years, and the menu never changed. And, wow, I don't know how people work there. Like I can't imagine working like 20 years in a restaurant that the menu never changed.

Yeah, I guess it's the thrill of the cook isn't the primary driver there.

Yeah. Well, one of the big things I kind of want to talk about is I know that you quit social media, which is like, like one of those big things right now. I feel like some people are totally into that. Like, that's what they need. And others are like, Oh my God, how do you survive without it? So when did you do that? And like what prompted that?

Well, I did it the day after my book release. And my man, I have the best publisher in the world because they took well, so backing up with it. When we first started negotiating on the contract, I was like, Look, I am planning on getting off social media, like I had it for the business. I don't want to do it anymore. Just a heads up, like, I'm not going to be the one to you know, do a bunch of promotion after the fact. You know, I just want to write this book. Is that cool? No, yeah, totally fine. Can you keep your social media up until the book comes out? And I was like, of course. So I did some like, you know, mild posting here and there, just, you know, leading up to the book. And then when it launched, I was like, Okay, bye, everyone. It's been fun. But you know, another thing for me that none of you want me to do?

Was it? Was there anything that like one or two specific things? Or were you just like, I'm at the point, I just don't need this in my life, like it's a time suck. And I have other things I want to be focusing on?

That's exactly right. I think that what, yeah, it's so many things. But I'll try to list I think, like you said, a big one was just the time suck. Even if all you're doing is posting your own stuff, and you don't ever look at your newsfeed, that's still a pretty significant time investment. And I already felt like I don't even know I don't have, you know, a normal job. I'm just writing and sort of dabbling, but I still feel like I don't have enough time in the day. So and this is being off social media. But also I took note of like how I felt when I interacted with social media. And for the most part, I felt mostly, like drained, or that I had just become a temporary zombie and then snap back. And I was like, where did that 40 minutes go? Or even sometimes six minutes, like six minutes is important to me. Life is short. And then I guess on top of that, I I mostly only use social media in the past for promoting something. So I had a Instagram food blog before the restaurant and then I had the restaurant. And we had all these pages my sister mostly ran but they were always for promotion. And I just felt like having to promote something was also taking away from my energy, which I would rather use on you know, writing another cookbook or opening another restaurant. I'm not going to do that. But you know, you get the theme.

And like, as the algorithms change, like you don't even get that much Return. Like when I think about like, what I'm putting out on Instagram, like, I'm gonna break out my camera and I'm gonna shoot a video and post a reel. And then after like three days you're like, oh, like 42 People like this? Yeah, like, it's exact was that worth it? Like I spent time like shooting this video and editing and posting and thinking about the hashtags and tagging people. And like, literally 42 People saw this, like, what did this do? This didn't move the needle on like anything. And I didn't like love the process, like, does anyone love the process? Unless they're maybe like a 13 year old? Who enjoys dancing in front of the camera? But like, yeah,

I don't know, I think some people do. And, you know, I will say that, like, my experience with social media hasn't been like completely negative from start to finish I have, you know, I've had fun making videos and goofing off of friends and stuff. And, you know, I've met people, but I would say that when I take a huge step back and look at my experience, overall, I'm like, Whoa, how many hours, days, weeks months, I have no idea how much time has been sunk into this weird imaginary world where, you know, if I'm being honest with myself, I don't see any of these people ever. Like they're sort of like, they could be bots. And I wouldn't know. And I've just been as I get older, I'm trying to focus more on on like in person connections. And, you know, taking a walk and saying hi to the neighbors, rather than opening up my phone and seeing what people on the internet are doing. Well, that's where

I've really tried to make it about the personal connections, like I use it for really building connections with people, you know, like, I'm spending more time DMing people and talking to them, you know, I see a photo of something they did, and then asking a question about how they did it and building a community through that. I mean, I don't know that I'd have the podcast without social media. Like when I think of all the people who've come on the show, and I've been on their shows, that's all people I've met just through social media, for the most part, they're not people I'd ever known otherwise. And it's been amazing. I've met some of the best people in my life. But I've also tried to convert it into real world interactions, you know, like, Is it someone I can, you know, meet up with in DC, and we can grab dinner and become friends like offline as well. That's really cool. I

think that that is about the best way you can use social media. And I think, speaking personally, I am somewhat of like a solitary person. I'm not like I don't want to see people or hate people or anything like that. I love people, but I do you have a capacity for like how many relationships I can maintain. And I found that maintaining all of these online relationships was quite exhausting for me. And at a certain point, I felt kind of like crushed under the weight of having all of these connections, which kind of sounds crazy. And unless you're someone like me who's experienced something like this, and I just thought, like, there's no reason for me to be stressed about this. I don't have to do this. And I will be sad to like, lose some of these connections, but the important ones will will go on.

Yeah, I mean, if people are really your friend, they'll know how to find you. Right? Like, have your email address or a phone number or something. Yeah,

when I still do a newsletter, which is not really much news, it's sort of just like bantering. But I do have people that use I used to be connected to on social media, they'll respond to my emails, and then we'll have these kind of same DM conversations, but it's much more condensed.

And it's always weird when like, someone disappears out of your sphere. And then maybe sometimes they reappear, like there's people like, Well, I used to see them all the time on Facebook, and I haven't seen them forever. And then you look it's like, oh, I think they've deleted their account. I don't even know they're gone. This person. They're gone. My only connection to them was like this random app that I had on my phone.

Yeah, it is. Yeah, that's another interesting point is that all of these things we're building, they're all still owned by someone else. And not to get to, you know, anti meta or anything. But it is kind of scary how your livelihood can be wrapped up in someone else's choices. Like I I think Facebook was down recently for a bit, and everyone kind of freaked out. Oh, yeah, I think that was after I was gone. But, you know, I didn't even notice, obviously. And I heard about it later. And I kind of felt the pain of all these people who were like, Oh my God, if my Facebook page is gone, like I've just lost connections to 1000s of people that are really important to me and personally or for business or whatever. And so, yeah, I was like, Okay, well, I don't, I don't want to ever be tied up like that again. Or like

when you think about like, it hasn't happened me but these people whose like, Instagram gets hacked and have to start over, right? Like, he's got great. You've gotten like 10,000 followers or like have your celebrity like a million and then you're back like, day one start again and like makes my stomach hurt. You can only friend request 20 people a day or something, like a slow build to like get back up there. Because I mean, it's a lot of work to do that together. You know, I have like 5000 followers and like if tomorrow I had none, you're like, I think I just be like I'm done. I'm not if I have to start from scratch or something like that. I just Throw in the towel and be like, I'm not doing it.

Well, you know, and that's why I decided to delete my page. A lot of people said, like, why don't you just pause it or like, you know, you can go dark or whatever. And I was like, You know what? No, no, this has to be this has to feel very permanent, like you said, because once it's gone, you don't really want to start over. And I just decided that that's not something I want in my life right now. And I need to like, take a really solid action and make sure that I don't get sucked back in.

And I found that like, for me, just taking break days has been great. I don't know if you know who Vaughn tan is, he was a guest on my podcast, but he wrote a book called The uncertainty mindset. But he also put out this thing called idk, which is a deck of cards with challenges to push you outside your comfort zone. And like one of them was go to a city you've never been to, and take a vacation day there that you didn't plan in advance. And I did it recently, like I randomly picked up a small town in Maryland about 20 miles from here that has like 2000 people, they have like, literally like three restaurants. I made a list of 10 places within 45 miles. And to make it random, I just said to my son pick a number one to 10. And he picked like seven and it was this small town. And I went there. And like just like left my phone in the car didn't listen and spent like seven hours there like walking around and like talking to neighbors on the street like strangers. Like I'm just out for a walk and people like how's it going? I'm like, it's great. I'm not from around here. Like where do you recommend I get lunch today? And they like sent me no place. And I went in and ordered something I thought I hate like I don't eat oysters. And they hadn't oyster po boy. So I'm like, I'm going to stretch myself today. Yeah, I haven't eaten oysters in eight years. So I'm going to do that. And I was like, oh, that's actually really good. And then like, walked through the graveyard at the church and started like reading tombstone. You know, just like driving my perfect vacation. Like, oh, wow, this person died. And they were like 29 years old, like and just kind of reflecting on that. And spending the whole day like, not even having background music in my head just like walk around and kind of experience life and like, I bought Christmas presents at a farm supply store. Because like one of the things is like go in a store you'd never go in. So I was like, okay, cool. Like, I'm not a farmer. So I went in, but I found like a hummingbird feeder. And I thought that'd be great for my inlaws. So like, you know, and just, I don't know, spend a day experiencing life other than doing the same stuff you would normally do over and over. And it was great. So I'm gonna keep up doing these different challenges to kind of

mean, you can just do that one over and over. Yeah. You gotta be careful you if you like that you might wind up becoming like a small town weirdo like me off social media.

Yeah, maybe. I mean, like, yeah, I really enjoyed it. And just to get out of the distraction of not having, you know, you're not looking at your screen. I, you know, I went by myself, it was day my wife went to work, the kids went to school, and I'm just like, I'm gonna go do this thing. And like, it's sometimes scary when you're left with your thoughts, right? Like, I think a lot of us. You know, a lot of people use these distractions, so they don't have to think right. And it's like, you're always listening to a podcast or music or talking to someone or scrolling. But it's like, oh, I'm going to spend seven hours like just walking around looking at things and like, being in the moment. I think more people should do that.

i Yeah, in, in sort of trying to trace steps back, no telling where these things actually start. But a pivotal moment for me in my self discovery regarding how I want to live my life, one of the things that I tried was just going on a walk, like at least a mile or so, and leaving my phone at home. And the first time I did it, I was like, Oh, I'm like itchy, you know, not that I even necessarily wanted to use my phone. But you know, I thought what if I want to take a picture of something? Or what if I get the itch to listen to a podcast or what if I want to call my sister and and the the vulnerability of just like being out in the world without your phone is like a feeling that until you do it? You can't really understand it. And it doesn't sound that exciting either. Like when you're like, oh try try walking without your phone people like you. Why

would you have any other things you want to leave us with? Before we get out of here today? Anything for the listeners? Any big projects? Anything? You want to get off your chest?

Um, no, not really. I would love if people were interested in my books, that'd be really cool. But as far as leaving people with other stuff now just eat more vegetables. I think you can't go wrong doing that. Eat more

vegetables. That's a good one. I do have one final question for you. Yes. What does it mean to you to be a chef? And do you identify as a chef? Oh, great

question. To be a chef to me, it means that you, you care about the people that you're cooking for and you want to make some sort of awesome experience for them in whatever way that means for you. And so I think I definitely identify as a chef and my A what I tried to bring people I think has evolved over time. You know, at some point, it was just like, whoa, have you tasted this, it's crazy good, and you're gonna want more. And I think my cooking these days has become more of a like, if you eat this, you're gonna feel so great. And if you eat this every day, you're gonna feel even greater. So I, you know, I hope that my role as a chef, not only nourishes people, but also inspires people to try to do it for themselves. themselves. I'm not sure.

I know. Well, you know, the grammar. Yeah, we make up our own language these days, right?

Yeah, definitely. Yeah, the the further back and get into the woods and start really making up words.

Nothing wrong with that. Well, I've loved having you on the show. Thanks so much for taking the time.

Well, thank you. It's it's been so much fun. You're great. And I know you

are not on social media, but I will direct people where they can find and buy your book.

Cool. Cool. Yes. chrome.com.

Fantastic. Yes. And to all of our listeners, as always, this has been Chris with the Chefs Without Restaurants podcast. Go to chefs without restaurants.org. To find our Facebook group, mailing list and check database. The community is free to join. You'll get gig opportunities, advice on building and growing your business and you'll never miss an episode of our podcast. Have a great week.