Using Food as a Tool for Social Design - with Chef Krystal Mack

Welcome to the Chefs Without Restaurants podcast. I'm your host Chris Spear. On the show, I have conversations with culinary entrepreneurs and people in the food and beverage industry who took a different route. They're caterers, research chefs, personal chefs cookbook authors, food truckers, farmers, cottage bakers and all sorts of culinary renegades. I myself fall into the personal chef category, as I started my personal chef business perfect little bites 10 years ago. And while I started working in kitchens in the early 90s, I've never worked in a restaurant unless you count Burger King. This week, we have Krystal Mack. She's a culinary artist, creative consultant, entrepreneur, writer, self taught baker, and activist who uses food as a vehicle for storytelling, cultural exchange, and community building. Based in Baltimore, Maryland, she's launched multiple brands and concepts over the years, including an experimental frozen dessert concept, Baltimore's first ever food vending tricycle, and an artisan collective for creatives of color. In this episode, we talked about using food as a tool for social design, decolonizing our relationship with food, imposter syndrome, culinary traditions, ethnic food and classical cooking, collaborations, food influencers and so much more. And I wanted to mention that during the show, Krystal had an incoming phone call. So there's a spot that seems to abruptly end, and then start up somewhere in a kind of unrelated place. I wanted to clarify that we didn't cut her off when she seemed to be talking about her Patreon. We do get into that a little bit again at the end of the show, but just wanted to mention that. And thanks to this week's sponsor the Grotto in Baltimore for letting us record the episode in the studio. And if you enjoy the show, I'd really love for you to subscribe to it. And if you're on iTunes, give it a rating and a review. Thanks so much for listening, and have a great week.

Welcome back to the Chefs Without Restaurants podcast. I'm Andrew.

And this is Chris.

And we're here at the Grotto in Baltimore. Our guest today is Krystal Mack. Thank you for coming.

Yeah, no problem. Thanks for having me.

Yeah, of course. We're glad to be here today. Yeah. I guess just let us know who is crystal mag. I could sit here and introduce you're part of a lot of cool projects. And you've done a lot of cool things, presidencies, businesses, all types of stuff. Yeah. Well, I am a Baltimore native. And I guess, you know, this is a Chefs Without Restaurants podcast. So I am a chef. I'm a chef, but mostly a social designer that uses food to kind of engage with issues facing us as people in the society that we live in political issues, emotional issues, anything of that nature. I like to use food as a way to tell stories around those specific themes. And I arrived at that profession, after just kind of feeling disgruntled with my place in the traditional food industry, so like hospitality, and all capacities, as a business owner, as a line cook, as a front of house person. I'm just really trying to find a way to find my place in those roles in hospitality and just realizing that I wasn't meant to be in hospitality, at least not in the traditional sense. So that was, that was kind of how I came to exploring the idea of using food as a tool for design, social design. And pretty much my approach to social design, which is how we engage with one another how to make human life better, is to decolonize our relationships with food. And for me, that's just been a huge process of my growth as an individual as crystal as myself, just this whole decolonization process, which has been really interesting because you know, I think we were just talking about how everything is so gray. It's like so much gray areas as far as like, our values and the things that we believe in, like no one is, like entirely black and no one's entirely white was like the things that they believe in, it's kind of like living in the gray. And that's how I feel that I, I'm just naive. And that's how I feel. I used to think I was very, like, firm in my beliefs and values. And then this whole decolonization process made me realize, like, wow, like, You, too, are a part of the problem, which is fine to have that realization, but also, like now that you realize, like, what are you going to do? And, for me, it's always just been about living in my truth, and walking away from things that didn't serve me. And speaking out against the issues that I saw that were harmful, not only to myself, but to the vision that I had for the food industry that I wanted to see, or the food community that I wanted to have or be a part of. So that is the way I rambled on it. But that's why, you know, this is definitely a pretty good explanation. And it really seems like with that, you're kind of like, I don't know, what maybe influences you have, or who inspired you. But it seems to me like you're just carving a completely new path in the food industry that I mean, I've I'm not like an expert or anything, but I've never seen anything like it before. Yeah, I feel like well, the funny thing is, when you asked me to be on, I was like, Yes, absolutely. And I was like, but amercia. And then I realized, I was like, Yeah, I am a chef. And that's something I constantly struggle with a lot, which is part of the, again, the whole decolonization process, because we have this very, or we're conditioned as food people to have this very colonized view of like, what is chef? Chef is right? It's like, Chef, where's a chef coat, oftentimes, they have a little hat, that maybe anymore, but you know, mostly French kitchens, but they have the chef's coat, they have a brand, they're working in a restaurant, traditionally, they work on the line, they have people that report to them on the line, you know, thinking of this very, like traditional, very colonized view of what that looks like. But then I realized that that didn't apply to me. And that that was fine. But that doesn't, you know, in my mind, I was like, well, I, I'm not a chef. And that's cool. And that's okay. But then I was also like, Well, actually, you are a chef, you're just not a very like colonized version of a chef, which you should be embracing, you shouldn't run away from that title. I was running away from it for so long. And I think in 2020, I was like, No, you need to like stand in your truth and stop running away from how how people can understand what it is that you do. And that's when I was like, which is now this is like the first time in a long time, I was like, I am a chef. Yes. And I even I guess even when we go back and replay this, you'll probably hear some hesitation in me saying I'm a chef. I still am getting comfortable with that. And also understanding that I can hold the title of something, but not present in the traditional way, what that role would normally look like to people, and even in claiming and that is an education, for myself and for others to see. Like you don't have to be in a restaurant to be a chef, you don't have to operate like a large catering operation. And you don't have to have a team that you lead online, it can be very much an intimate experience where you're engaging and educating the public in ways beyond consumption and a dining experience.

That's what I wanted to start this, you know, I never had a traditional. So I went to culinary school and I have a four year degree. But then I started doing things like working in retirement communities. I cooked at IKEA, but like, when people say what do you do, you'd say I'm a chef, and they get this excited look in their eyes, like ooh, where and it's like, I work in a retirement community that's like, like, they want to hear this story. Like in their mind, a chef exclusively worked in this like Michelin star restaurant, and have worked in some really cool places and done some great stuff. And some of it was almost like me, I don't know, like reconciling the fact that I was a chef, even though I didn't work at restaurants. But I consistently felt like I wasn't a chef, because that's how people outside the industry made me feel about myself. But then I'm 43 so I see a lot of people my age, kind of like aging out right like that. They're not working till two in the morning and they're tired and all that and they're doing these really cool things. And I really wanted to have a place for all of us to connect, maybe commiserate help each other out, especially as so many of us are solopreneurs but also to tell these cool stories and maybe inspire some younger people and make them rethink like maybe you don't need to go to culinary school maybe maybe you're not meant to ever work or live in a restaurant like this. So many awesome cool things out there. And I just with the podcast, I wanted people to come on and share their stories. And I'm not interested in having line cooks at restaurants, I mean, we've had some will. But I'm really interested in people telling the story of like what they're doing in the food world that does not relate to working a traditional restaurant job.

I feel like that is the thing about I don't know, the industry itself it is. So I feel like it draws so many different types of people. But I find that as you link once you enter in that industry, and then you kind of work through it, like he said, You either age out, or you're just kind of fine, where you are, and you don't really go beyond that, where you start to kind of question like, Is this it? This is all there is like, how can I create more for myself, and oftentimes, unfortunately, especially from my own personal experience, as a black woman, it is hard to kind of work your way up to the top, you know, we get less investment or businesses. So the likelihood of like, starting at a restaurant, and like working your way up to executive chef, and then someone seeing your talents as executive staff and being like, hey, I want to invest in you and help you open a restaurant that is very rare when it happens. And, you know, so, to me, it's always been like, Okay, I gotta make my own way, I gotta make my own opportunity. I've always, I've always kind of been very much aware of that. And I think that's a cool and beautiful thing about being in food today, right now, like, a lot of us are just kind of creating our own communities and kind of showing what we want to have what we want the future of food to look like. And it definitely is a it's just a really exciting time. And I'm really honored to be doing what I'm doing now. At a time where, you know, changes being accepted and different approaches are immediately like, like looked at in a way of like, what is this? This is too weird to even be considered a food job or a food career. But I don't know, it's been really exciting. Yeah, I think there still is a level of that going on. But, but that's kind of the whole reason that I approached Chris and wanted to do this is to like, with us in the industry, who we're actually making food define, you know, like what it means to, to be a chef or just navigate how we see fit, you know, and like me, personally, I have imposter syndrome. Chris made me feel a lot better about it when I first met him, but like, I don't have any type of formal training in cooking at all. I mean, well, in high school, I took commercial foods, a couple, a couple classes, shout out to Chef zachman he might even listen to this, I don't know. But um, you know, like, I don't have I didn't even really work in restaurants. I didn't, I didn't work in restaurants. My first job was in high school at a cheesesteak place. And then I was like, so weak, because that's more profitable. And then my next kitchen job was literally in a jail. And then that's, that's how that's like, I mean, that's not my whole journey with food. But that's like, where it really started. And, you know, I'm kind of like starting from scratch. So I have this imposter syndrome of like, how can I call myself a chef? Where I'm like, my experience is totally different than most people who would say that they were. But it's really like, about self education and what you do with it? Yeah. So I think that's the thing we've taken away from not we I feel like when we look at these very like be systems and the structures that have kind of these very, like narrow views of like what something is supposed to look like, it can it creates imposter syndrome, which is actually its intention, because if there was no imposter syndrome, and everybody will be out here doing whatever they wanted to do, and that's not good. if everyone's doing it or whatever they wanted to do, then there will be an oversaturation and then there would not be a way for a very small percentage of people to find success, grow and grow profit and make a lot of money. So, um, yeah, and I can't believe you have imposter syndrome. I mean, like, Oh, my God, like, No, your self is beautiful. But I think that's another thing. Like, when we talk about like creativity, and you know, people say, oh, like, you're a creative like, I wish I could be creative. I think everyone is inherently creative. It just takes a little bit more work for some people. Just like I think everyone, I don't care what anyone says. I think everyone can cook. I think everyone thinks that everyone can cook amazing things all the time, but I definitely think that everyone is born with the ability to like boil an egg, right? I think most of the boundaries we set ourselves. People say they can't cook But really like if you just tuned in, you can do a lot of things intuitively Actually, that's something I kind of want to bring up with you today you talk about it sometimes is vibrational cooking. And that the idea, I don't know too much about it, but like I understand it, and the idea of it, to me is like, the most beautiful thing, because I feel like that's kind of like what I've always been, because I don't have the training, you know what I mean? So like, that's what I do. I don't really know that that's, I mean, it's, it's a human is truly like, he said, it's like an intuitive thing, where it's basically like cooking off of instinct, living off of insane cooking off of until, like, things just feel, right. Like the vibes in the kitchen are okay, like, this is good, I don't think I need any more salt. Or let me turn this heat down a little bit, you know. And a lot of times, I feel like, when we it's about trust, right, it's like about building trust with yourself with your senses, which are very important things for a cook or a chef to have. And I think it's interesting. Now we're in a time where it's so weird, like, we have this like praise of chefs. But then we also have the celebration of very, like highly skilled home cooks, like Kenji Lopez and semi nostrud. So it's like, these people are home cooks, you know, and they're being like, celebrated like any other chef is because they have not only the research behind them, but they also have these highly attuned skills of vibration cooking, you know, in order to know how to apply the research, they have to have that trust and ability to know how to. Yeah, I think this is timed, right. I think this is season, right? I think I can like, you know, let me I think this is enough time on the Blanche, I don't need a timer, like I don't need to be restricted by time, I can just feel it, I can tell it looks okay, it looks fine now, but that really is kind of what vibration cooking is. And I think it takes on a whole different level when you are cooking foods of you, like your ancestors of your specific culture of, of your family. I think that, you know, that return to vibration cooking, which I'm seeing a lot more now, especially in the black community is really important for the future of food. I feel like we're getting further and further disconnected to or be further disconnected from understanding how important the connection to the land is, and the connection to the stories tied to food and why we eat the things that we eat, and why we don't eat the things that we shouldn't eat, or we kind of have an aversion to. And I think that, you know, the more that we practice vibration cooking, and the more that we read about our food history, the more we know about ourselves, and the more we can relate to others around us because there's so many connections in food. Like my boyfriend always talks about how everybody has a taco that he's like, falafel taco. Today, like sandwich kind of a taco, it's so funny to hotdogs. Because it's like some type of starchy vessel, it wouldn't be in vegetables or something in it or some type of like, you know, some type of substantial item in the center that is being delivered to your face. And unlike like pizza, similarly, everybody has a pizza. And it's just like, you know, it's Yeah, it's it's really cool. So it's easy. It's fun to like, explore those intersections of like, Oh, we have this culture is called blah, blah.

So many, many of those terms are interchangeable. And I find when I'm selling a menu to a customer, like I try and get the vibe on what, what cuisines are they deem appropriate like some people say I don't like this or that but take something like a chimney cherry is very similar to a salsa beretania which is also similar to a green harissa. Yeah, and they're all like this puree with like herb and acid and some stuff. And I know people will say like, I don't like Middle Eastern cooking, so I won't give them a green harissa. But I can sell them on a salsa Verity or if they don't like Mexican food, I can sell them on a chimney cherry but it's essentially the same thing. It's like I throw herbs in the Vitamix with usually vinegar and or lemon and blend it up with some kind of spicy pepper. And it's just really funny that people put themselves in this box of like, I don't like Mexican food, so I won't tell them it's assault severity, I'll just call it chimichurri. And they're fine. And it's it's kind of ridiculous. Yeah. And like how much I want I want to educate people but not educate, you know, like nobody wants to be taught to add when they're your customer. Like, it's hard for me to go to a customer and say like, what made this chimichurri I know you don't like Mexican and it's essentially assault severity. Like there's a very fine line there about you know, like kind of saying, well, they're essentially the same and I know you say you don't like this, but This is essentially that, you know, finding that balance of like, educating them without coming off as like holier than thou.

I think that's I think that's, that's one of the fun parts. Right? You know, it's like presenting new ideas to someone and like what they thought, again, like, very black and white, what they thought they did like, or they didn't like making them realize like, Oh, actually, I like elements of this thing. And I shouldn't restrict myself like, Oh, it's just that I don't like human. I didn't realize that that was, you know, that's the thing that I don't like, Okay, what is human? And then like exploring that a little bit more? So yeah, I think that's cool. I think that's amazing. And I think one of the reasons that gets me so excited, like the aspect of like vibration cooking, and like finding things across cultures that intersect is like the way that it brings us together, it makes us realize, like, yes, we are different. And that's a beautiful thing. But also at the same time, we're still human, and we're still connected to each other. So you know, if we can celebrate each other's differences, like and see the beauty in them, then we could possibly be able to come together and create a food future that is inclusive and diverse, not only in like, the racial and gender makeup, but also like in the flavor palette of what it could be, you know, and maybe finding a way to kind of re invest in each respective community so that it can continue to remain vibrant. Give up so important. Yeah.

I think you know, it's really interesting to look at political climate and what's going on, and how that how you have a view of a whole cultures food based on something going on in the world. I'd like to think we're a little more progressive, but I growing up, we had a Vietnamese restaurant in my hometown. And I remember people saying, like, I'd never go to a Vietnamese restaurant, because they're thinking about the Vietnam War, you know, but just that whole idea of like, I don't know. So now we're going into this thing, potentially, with Iran. But like, you know, there's so many people living here in this country, not, you know, who have nothing to do with that, and running restaurants and stuff. And it'll be interesting to see kind of what the reception is, from the public to things like that. I'm always interested in kind of seeing how those global issues cut when it comes down to it.

Well, America is famous. Politics, especially when it comes to food policy, like that didn't stop people from eating tacos. You know, that didn't. So like we are very much. Unfortunately, the food culture in America is like escapism and capitalism. And those are like perfect partners for a story that is very, like whitewashed and removed from the really harmful and sad and tragic realities of what the food system looks like here. And, yeah, I don't. I mean, this sounds like such a negative Nancy thing to say, I was like, nothing's going to happen. If anything, the thing that's going to happen is that people who are poorly informed about the, you know, which are to be quite frank is all of us, because we don't really know what's happening. We just woke up and like one in the morning, it was like he killed the defense minister over there. I think that what's going to happen is that, you know, we might have some like, really, some, some really ignorant people making really stupid decisions about where they're going to eat, or what they're not going to eat, based on core political decisions that have been made. Just, I mean, it's just going to be a continuation of what it's been for the past. What I mean, you can say, four years ago, it's been a long, much longer time in Trump's administration, like people making decisions based off of like, again, they're very much black and white view. And not really like trying to find the facts or dissent or their own experience, which is why we've had like a rise in hate crimes and stuff. So unfortunately, and I hope that that is not the reality. But if we're going on the past experiences in the past couple years, that is what's going to happen. And that's not cool. And that's fucked up. better word. I'm sorry. No, you're good. It brings me right back to what you said about people being like, I don't like Mexican. I mean, anywhere you go, Mexico, their whole food program is like, exactly. Yeah. Like what what is it really that they don't like Do they not like Mexican food or they have some type of prejudgment about Mexico or Mexicans because of some other beliefs or views that they have? Well, and

I know you've said My thing on Facebook this past week I had some customers and I didn't customize menus for all my customers so I sent them a questionnaire to find out what they liked and they said they wanted quote, nothing distinctly

ethnic. Oh right, right.

But what they really wanted was a Eurocentric French Italian which is which is fine but that that's what comes down to what a lot of people think food or what I proposed a menu they ended up getting something that had Serrano ham, Manchego cheese, Marcona almonds, you know, they want they wanted classical French techniques. But that's not what they said. what they said was nothing distinctly ethnic and I post on Facebook and I got some really thoughtful comments from people, I got a lot of snarky ones. And there was some joking there. But that's another area where like, how much do you educate them and say, well, just so you know, you said you want to nothing distinctly ethnic but what I'm hearing is you want Eurocentric, traditionally classic type foods, and that's fine. And maybe that will help you articulate that better going forward. But you know, in this modern food world, there's so much diversity crossover, there's been so much colonization, where ingredients travel back and forth, you know, is chocolate and ethnic ingredient, you know, because I had someone make a comment about like, chocolates and chocolates and ethnic ingredients, you know, so it's just the view is like, I guess nothing Southeast Asian, Middle Eastern Latin American, is that what ethnic is to some people, I think

you also talked about language, like language is so important. And I know, I think it's also like, being such a hippie, like the Virgo. To me, that's very much like, No, we have to be exactly the same way that we say them. And obviously, like, that's not always gonna happen. But like, even when you said it, which was not that classic, right? They were talking you were thinking, Oh, they must want more of the classic. And it's like, well, classic for blue. Like, that's not classic to me, that might not be classy for somebody in West Baltimore. Like, who is that classic for? And what are we basing this off of? What's the baseline, and then that goes back to the baseline being European, right? But that's not reflective of everyone. And it's just like, we keep like it was and I'm also curious as a younger person, or what this like, they

know, they were actually about my age. You know, judging from the questionnaire, I thought that maybe they would have been older. But they weren't. I mean, they have children, some young, actually both younger than mine. So I just think that that whole idea of Michelin, because also in their thing, they said, we're used to Michelin diamond, you know, but now Michelin, I know what that means. Right? And now you're now you're now you're having like they're even having like the best Michelin restaurants in Japan and in Mexico. But I just think people go back to that idea of like, when I was in culinary school, you learned they called it classical French cooking, like everything was rooted. It is very. And I am and I am so not interested in that. Like, I don't want to cook those. I'm not interested in French food. I'm not even really interested in that much of Italian food myself. But it's just interesting the way that the whole thing was like positioned. Yeah, so what they liked and didn't like,

at the same time. Again, like we can celebrate all those things and still say that I love pasta, I definitely have days where I'm like, all right, like and if someone's like, well, we don't have pasta, but we have like ramen, and I'm like, No, tomato sauce, and pasta. Like, I'm not saying I don't like ramen. I'm not saying I don't like them. I'm not saying I'm saying right now, I didn't want to pass it. So I think there's a way to celebrate all things and also celebrate the opposites as well without holding something up as a pinnacle and discrediting everything else. And I think that we are at a time now where more than ever we need to do those things. We need to celebrate the the things that are not being centered, but also acknowledge that the things that are being centered have helped pave the way, in a sense, but also it's kind of tough to like let some old traditions die, you know? Yeah. Yeah, I didn't want to get too deep on your Facebook feed there. But one person that we know was like, I feel like when sometimes that's code for anything, not European. I was like, No, it's not code. That's what that means. Every time somebody says Yes, yeah. I mean, like you were saying, like, every everything is ethnic in some way. But like, the only person who's gonna say like, I don't know is like somebody who's has this Eurocentric view of the world that's just like, this is, this is classic, this is what it is, or they want ethnic food, but they don't even know that they want it, they want influences, they want fusion, and they want all of those things like, they want the they want the David Chang ethnic experience, right? They don't want like your local mom and pop ethnic experience. And that's not to knock David Chang but he definitely, like, you know, there was like an Asian fusion movement and like the 90s. But then he like revitalize the infusion of Asian cuisine into American cuisine, and made it way more like he's the reason we have kimchi ketchup and stuff like that, which is fine and great and amazing. At the same time, it's also like, you know, if that is the only, you know, if you're only interested in ethnic foods that have a proximity to whiteness, or that are approved by institutions that are inherently white, then that's a problem. And it's a problem because it is telling one story. And it is also like playing like, who's bad and who is good. It's like passing judgment on certain types of things, based on, you know, really problematic histories oftentimes, like, whether that's like model minority myth, or like colonization of lands and people like, so it's kind of troublesome. And I think it was so funny that the person was like, we're used to dining at Michelin stars. And it's like, well, yeah, you're used to dining at Michelin stars. But do you like to understand the process of Michelin stars and how that works, and the judging and how that works. And what it takes oftentimes, to get those stars, it doesn't cost money to get those stars, but it costs money in a sense, and the ways they save, you don't even see, as someone going into a restaurant space that hospitality and an experience that you got, you didn't understand the amount of money that goes into like someone coming in and changing your cost nap. And every time that's you got to order fine linens, you got to pay for the person to get that wash, that having someone coming around every five seconds anticipate your every move to give you a shawl, if you're cold. Before even thought about it, they saw you stroke your arm for one second, and like oh, my goodness, this person is cold, someone go get that clearing your plate, it takes a whole team of people, which is reasons why that we hold in such high regard these like classic French restaurants, because they have literally I mean, all of the roles that we have in traditional kitchens now are basically rooted in French tradition. They have this whole army of people, this whole team of people

who are quite often brown skinned, maybe not even English speaking, people whose that's not their cuisine. So they might be cooking at Liberty den. Right? They're probably from Mexico or somewhere in South America.

And that's an even and now especially in like DC but in like places where you know where that isn't the case where there are kitchens that are full of young white people, specifically, mostly men, young white men, they do, they do have to pay them. And that costs a lot of money to pay that many people. So oftentimes, what you'll find is that you'll have some people that most people not being paid well, or they will be paid well, but they'll be working in very like emotionally toxic situations, and mentally toxic situations. So it costs a lot of money, whether the guests is experiencing that on their end at like a what $300 dinner, like I said, that's like 10 courses or something, or on the back end with the people who are working on someone's going to have to pay, you know, most of the times it's not the owner. So you know, it is it's a lot of things that come into play. But oftentimes when it comes to Michelin stars, the people that have Michelin stars have the money to afford the Michelin star, because it is not cheap to create a dining experience. That is that anticipates your needs, you know, it costs a lot of money to anticipate needs. And it takes a lot of time to find the right front of house staff that is attuned enough to anticipate needs. And the centers themselves enough to kind of truly invest in the dining experience and forget about what they have going on and focus truly on the guests and the dining experience. So I think that was just so interesting that he was like, are they she was like me, they were like, you know where you sit down at

Michelin? I think it's really just what they mean is like their meat and potatoes, people and people use that expression all the time. Like just classic Steakhouse like I want a Caesar salad with like a Philemon neon with some beurre blanc or you know, something like that with a loaded mashed potato like that's what a lot of people want and one thing and that's fine. People go to steak houses all the time. I'm not one of them, but like, you know, the people who you can talk about going out on Valentine's Day, you know, they're the ones who don't go out at all for the And all they want is like, they want the chocolate cake or the cheesecake or something like that. And she also has kind of dog on it as being boring food. But there's, you know, it pays the bills, right? Yeah. But yeah, just say you want meat and potatoes.

You know, not throwing the baby out with the bathwater. There are things that we can appreciate. In a flaming yawn or whatever, that, you know, everything has its place, but examining origins, it still needs to come with us. Right? Like, what does it contribute to the conversation? That's that's the only thing I think that we need to get better with figuring out what, what can say, what can go and why are we saying you can say no? Is it because it serves us? Or is it holding up this weird, like false? narrative about like, what good food is? And what good food isn't it? Is it rooted in some type of weird supremacy that we need to throw away and dismantle now? So sorry, I'm hopping. We went, we got you on here, because we want to hear what you have to say. So it's all good. I have a I mean, I have a similar thing with my pizza is like, I've always wanted it to be like, I mean, my business in general, like, I started with a mission, but it's not like a mission based business. You know what I mean? Yeah, but that's something that I'm like, still seeking out, like trying to figure out where I lie, when it comes to, like community and, and like what I can do to give back through my business, you know, but like, starting out, I don't know, it's kind of difficult to figure that out. Maybe it'll just come to me, but I've been, I've been trying to figure it out. I think you're just constantly asking yourself what you need as an individual, and also what you because I feel like if you ask yourself what you need as an individually, this is what's been helpful to me, because I'm still also trying to figure it out, especially as someone who is trying to constantly evolve and learn more about myself day to day, I feel like asking what you want for yourself as an individual separate from pizza, llama. You know, like, I think that it's, it's interesting that we, oftentimes as entrepreneurs, and business owners, and creatives, we try to separate those two things like, well, this is like my business hat. And this is my personal hat. But it's like the business has a thing that keeps you fulfilled as a person. So trying to figure out, like, what are the things I want from my community that I may not necessarily be seeing? Or, you know, what are the things that, you know, I feel like I'm missing like, that was the whole reason that I kind of created my design studio, in absence of our studio, I Oh, I Oh, design. It was just kind of like, well, I want to create this, I want to have a space where I can have these conversations with other food creatives or other creators period, that they don't necessarily have to be related to food in their day to day activity. Because I know that we all eat food every day, right? So it's like, there's always a connection to food. So it's easier for me to find that link to people. But you know, I want to I want to have deeper conversations around like art and music and social justice, like, How can I do that? And it's like, well, if I create it, it's kind of like, if you build it, they will come like Field of Dreams. Like if I create this space for myself to explore, and then put out there and hey, I created this space, like if you want to join me and have some conversations that are traditionally had and, you know, hospitality and food and beverage, then I'm here and I'm ready to talk about them. And you know, engaging people in the programming that I create to those are the things that you know, are kind of selfish, I create programs that I would want to see if I were not the one creating them. It's like what would I want to go to right now if I didn't have this? Like, I don't want to go to a program about black women food and power. So I made one. Yeah, it's just kind of like exploring your needs and then kind of going off of that, because I think that's how I found you. I mean, I knew about you when that one day you walked into our house, I was like, that's pizza llama. That guy so cool. At one point before I like got in that space. I made it my business to see how everyone else who didn't have a space was building community with food. And I had you know, I did my food tricycle called pi cycle and I was also selling ice pops off of it. That taught that was karma pop, but I yeah, I was always just like fascinated like across the country with how other chefs were, you know, running their mobile businesses and popping up in places, but also how they were sustaining community in between those pop ups and like connecting with other people that got it. Because Yeah, you can have friends who are chefs. But it's a really special difference, to have friends who are, who don't have a restaurant role every day, I think that they can understand the challenges that you face and the extra level of creativity and motivation that you have to have to get your ideas off of the ground. Which kind of to me is why I'm always like, extra hardcore cheering on people who are interested in rent space. Because it takes up it takes a lot of like extra work to survive, and even be like, seen or heard and taken serious. Definitely. And if you have a voice, you know, I'd love to be able to use my platform. But we're definitely in a time where it's divided. You know, you

have a guy like chef, Tom Colicchio. He's very political, and he'll post something on Twitter, and then everyone kind of, well, not everyone, but half the country, or you go out and say, like, stick to cooking chef,

you know, like that.

You're only identified by your career or this one thing. And you're not allowed. You know, he's got a lot of followers. He's got a platform, and he uses it to speak about things that he is passionate about. But a lot of that pushback will be well, you're just a chef, you don't have the right to talk about that. But why are you an architect have the right to talk about that, or something else? I find it bizarre.

I think of all people, I think chefs. Because we are so intimately connected to a medium that is about life, and keeping people alive. And the key part of a key part of being alive is just thriving, it's one thing to be alive. Like if we were just concerned with just being alive, then it would just, which we're kind of headed towards, it could just be one of those things where it's like, have you guys seen the movie Soylent Green. So it can just be like a Soylent Green situation where it's like, you know, it doesn't matter what we're eating, we're just eating people. People, but like, you know, we're just eating and we're surviving in that time. We should be surviving, we should be thriving, and that shouldn't be a business thriving should not be sufficient and be costing people money to live life pleasurable Lee, in a way that they can find joy, you know, it should be accessible to everyone. And I think that as chefs, it is our duty in our job to find a way, which is why we shouldn't be up any yums or you know, shame people for their food choices. Find a way for people to find joy in their life in a way that's healthy. A healthy relationship to the joy of eating and cooking for themselves, for us to cook for them. So my question is kind of like, it's just another one of those gray areas where we're in a place now where in a lot of, in a lot of areas, it's like we need to be paying, people need to be paying more for food, kind of, because of the service and the whole culture of tipping, and just people in the kitchen being paid enough and all of that. Food is worth more than we kind of like, as a society. Make it? Yeah, but then, at the same time, when you're charging more for this food, then it becomes less accessible for a lot of people. Yeah. So and me making pizza too. Like I put a lot of work into my pizza, I use really good ingredients. I had recently had a baker like kind of convinced me I never wanted to use the word like artisan. Or like, I was just kind of averse to it because I make pizza. And I'm like, regardless if it's artisan or not like it's pizza, and what it is, is like a poor man's food. Yeah, that's where it started. You know what I mean? So that's why I was averse to it. But then she kind of pointed out to me, like, all the work you put into it, and all the love you put into it and the crafts that you've honed over the years, like, that's what it is, though. Yeah, and you can charge whatever you want for it. And people will come literally just for that, if you call it that word, suddenly kind of accepting it a little more now, but I've always struggled with that, you know, because I want my pizza to be accessible to everybody, but it's just not really the case. Like you can't always be I feel like yeah, I think there's I mean, I think there's tears to it. The reality is like as an artist, you do want to survive off of your art but at the same time, you want to survive in a sustainable way. So it's not only is going to be accessible to everyone. But is that is a goal of yours, you know, that's when you have that that menu that is like, it fluctuates in the range of what you have. And also, kind of keeping in mind, like the relationships that you have with like farmers, if you're, you know, are thinking about, okay, what are the things that you know, cost me more money to source but I can actually like, grow myself like basil? Like, yeah, I can grow on basil like, okay, cool, that'll cut down on some things and you know, make this pizza a little bit more affordable to everyone. So I don't have to raise my cost cuz I'm outsourcing that. Or maybe you can have days that are like, Oh, I'm gonna go in this area that's kind of underserved and, you know, offer a more reasonable price or like pay what you can between these price ranges? I don't know. I think that. Like you have to think about like you said, it wasn't like you have a mission. But think about what your mission is. And think about what are the things that you really want to do with your businesses. And if accessible pizza to all accessible quality pizza at all is one of them, I think you can really start to think about ways that you can cut down on costs. I mean, that's really the main issue, it seems when it comes to like making it accessible to everyone. What are ways that you can cut down on costs and make it easier for you and for your consumer, your supporters. But I don't know I I struggle with that too. And I think that's one of the reasons why I started my Patreon, because I was like, I want my programming to continue to be affordable. But I also know that the reason it was affordable this year is because I had a lot of grants from institutions, because I was doing these conversations and these programs at museums. So I was getting funding that helped cover the cost of speakers and help, you know, make sure that I was getting compensated for the time that I was taking out of my like, months and year to plan this program. But I also know that I want to have like free range over the conversations that I want to have. And I want to have more radical conversations. And a lot of these conversations can't be had in the walls of an institution. But I also need to be able to afford the space that I'm renting. So it's like how do I do this. And that's when you can kind of have a real moment. I mean, that's what made me be like, Okay, if people believe in the work that I'm doing, a little bit of money would help. So maybe I should ask, you know, and that was one of my resolutions Anyway, I'm not even a huge resolution person. But it was one of my intentions for 2020 was to not be afraid to ask the community around me when I need it for what I needed. And when I need it was a little bit more sustainable support for a little bit more, a little bit more support in the financial department so that it could be so that the practice could grow that people could continue to come because I didn't want to be like, okay, we're gonna have this professor come and we're gonna have this chef calm, and it's gonna be a very, like, fancy dinner after the conversation. $45 and I know, last year, the programming was free, but like, I gotta pay for these people to fly in, and I gotta, you know, rent the facility, and I gotta buy ingredients, and I got to pay my chef volunteers, and then it turns into a thing. And people are, you know, the whole key part of this is building community and making sure that people are getting this education and information. And if I'm charging that significantly cuts down on that. So yeah, the Patreon is a way that it will allow me, you know, to continue growing this community that I've started, and also continue to work with using food as a tool for design.

Well, that's awesome. We'll make sure there's, you know, we'll plug that and we'll be links in the show notes to get to there.

And we're just gonna jump into a new conversation right now. I really wanted to talk to Crystal about collaboration. I've heard you talk before about it. And I mean, it was a while ago, I think I just, you know, I follow you closely on Instagram. So like, I just take what I what I hear from that. But I know that it's like, can be a complicated subject when you're working with another individual or a company, and then creating a situation where it's like a win win for everybody, or like who's in control, you know what I mean? So I guess like, personally, how do you navigate those types of situations? Very rarely collaborate, collaborate intentionally. I really try to think about what the benefit is to like me as an individual as the artists but also like to, like my design studio and then also thinking about what that collaboration could bring into the community. Whether that's like the end Like the target community that, you know, my business and the other business wants to address, and then the surrounding communities around that. I think that something that I see often, which makes me just kind of want to bomb a bit is like, every five seconds, it's a collaboration pop up somewhere. And it's like, this takes away like the whole point of why this was cool in the first place. Like you're constantly seeing people, the thing that I see often in Baltimore is a constant recycling of the same collaborations and the same collaborators and partnerships, or one that has no real purpose. And it's just like, clearly these people needed money, like this was clearly like, thrown together last minute thing. So how is it that I can find something? You know, we live in a time when there's so many pop up concepts and local businesses? So it's like, how can I make my collaboration and my pop up, be substantial, and that it is not a waste of the consumers time, and it's not a waste of my time? And it's not a waste of my money? You know? And I think that that's one of the reasons why I don't do them often. Because it's like, Okay, I have to find the right partner, I have to find someone that takes my work seriously takes their work seriously. And it's willing to put in the equal amount of effort to make this happen. Someone who respects business practices and wants to, you know, if I present them with an NDA or a contract, we ask for a pop up, they're not looking at me, like, what, why are you doing this, it's like to let them know that I'm being serious. And I don't, you know, I don't want my time wasted. And I think that contracts are important. I think that, especially in a collaboration, I think that, you know, unique and original, being you creation is important, especially in a collaboration. And I think that two businesses or two individuals coming together to value it both is bringing to the table is the whole purpose of it and showing what can be created when two people who highly respect each other, coming together. That's like, kind of the point of collaboration, what like amazing things can be created. If it's all about like, a power flex, or like trying to get in on somebody else's, like, shine, or maybe even like steal someone else's recipes or like that, that that doesn't, like, what's the point? You know? So for collaboration, I mean, again, I don't, I don't do them often. But when I do I really like to sit and think in my mind I what I do secretly is I make a list of people that I'm like, oh, wow, like, I love what this person does. Like, I love pizza, llama, how cool is he? Like, look what he does? Like, how could I work with this person? What's a way that this would actually, like be beneficial to them, not a waste of time, not a waste of my time beneficial to me, and like, a way for everyone to come across, like walk away from the event and be like, wow, like, I gotta get to Frederick and try this pizza or Whoa, like, I'm so happy that crystal did this, it was really cool to like, taste these popsicles inspired by

Is it wrong to just want to get together and cook with people who you like and have a good time just for the sake of a good time. So like, but one of the reasons I wanted to start what I do is because I work by myself, I have a personal chef business, I have zero people and like sometimes I just miss being around people are having that connection, like peers, like Andrew and I might get together like we did a pop up dinner one time that like, no portion of the money went to a charity, I don't feel like we were moving the needle socially, it was just like two people who like each other getting together, cooking. So I mean, I kind of I get your points. I also feel like a lot of these guys just get together because they want to cook with other people they like to see, you know, one chef leave their restaurant and do a pop up with another probably because they're just like, good friends who want to cook together. And also, you know, sharing followers or fans, I think goes both ways. You know, like Andrew and I have totally different followers and demographics, I think and I think it is good for me to get in front of some of his customers and vice versa. So

you know, no, I'm not knocking. I'm not knocking that I'm saying I think that's great. But I also am not gonna waste my time turning that into an event if it's not done. I mean, I don't know about anyone else listening but as a small business owner who does not have a space, it takes a lot of time to do that. I have to rent a space to make food I have to go out and buy ingredients that are going to cost more if I don't buy them in bulk and and so then I'm going to go out and do we're going to spend more money on ingredients, cooking for a smaller pop up. It just it's not cost effective. I think it's great to let go And I think that's, that's the business mindset switch over for me it's like, which oftentimes does not happen and pop up businesses and concepts. People are like, I'm just doing it because I love to do it and, and it's like, Yeah, but are you losing more money now at this point, there's one way to you can collaborate and it doesn't have to be a pop up. And it can just be at your home telling what your friends and cooking. But when you are turning it into like a public thing, and you're making it, you're making the decision to make it a way to bring in business and make money. Like, it needs to make money and needs to make money like you can't, you can't just pop up and like have fun with friends and cook, and then lose money. Because it's like that doesn't make it sustainable. You have to be strategic with how you collaborate, it just doesn't make sense to not,

I don't know, Does any of that go back to kind of like a non quantifiable marketing though, because this is almost the counterpoint to I think what our last two or three chefs have talked about, which is like, it takes money to make money. And sometimes you got to go do an event and do a pop up and give away food, just to get in front of people, like these people maybe have never experienced your food. And you know, it's gonna cost you a couple 100 bucks on food, but then maybe you're gonna get them as a customer.

I mean, yes, and no, like, you can do that in a market setting, right? Like you can do that at a farmers market, you can do that there are ways that have a higher return where you are likely one of his money instead of just doing as a pop up, like a pop up is not a guarantee, especially when you are the person bringing in the audience. Like, if you guys like did a collaboration at a brewery or something. And you know, the brewery has no food there. But you know, sometimes they have people that are hungry, and you guys both don't necessarily have the strongest following. That's a very high likelihood of a loss of money. Yeah, very high. And to me, it's like, okay, like, if I sign up, though, for a market table, like at a farmers market or something, yeah, you're gonna have bad weeks where you lose money, but the visibility is there, you know, the possibility of like, returning customers is there. That's what I mean, when I'm talking about collaboration and being strategic, just making sure like, this is actually worth your time and your collaborators time. Because at the end of the day, like when you do these pop ups and spaces, oftentimes, like you won't necessarily get like the generous brewery that's like, oh, pop up for free. Oftentimes, they'll be like, Oh, you guys want to pop up here, when we get a portion of your sales, or we need you to pay this leg vendor fee, knowing that they don't have the traffic flow, knowing that, you know, it's up to you guys to promote, if you don't promote knowing that they aren't, they have no intention of promoting your pop up. So even like contributing to Yeah, yeah. And then it's not to me, that's not even really, that's not a conversation, I mean, a collaboration, that's just, but that happens so many times, and especially when you have people that are like, oh, we'd love to partner with you, or we'd love to collab with you. And it's like, what does that what does that mean? What does that look like? Especially in the time of food influencers like so, which to me is your Bs, I cannot stand the food influencer movement, because it is oftentimes people who have never worked in the industry a day in their life and have the money to have disposable income to frequent all of these places. And really create a narrative of like, what food is like in a city or what a food industry should be. But they get all of these, like, really tight relationships with chefs in, you know, restaurant owners just because they are taking photos of food, they have no real understanding of like, the sourcing behind the food, they have no real understanding of the culture. And that's like in house culture and also culture of the food beings are. They are just there to get free food and also have friends, fake friends like internet friends, and I was saying I just I don't I don't like it. I think it's disgusting. A

couple weeks ago, I was talking online to a bunch of people I said, food is a commodity. And they make it even more so that like if you look at their Instagram feeds, very rarely are there pictures of the chef, the restaurant and the other side. It's just the whole feed is like three burgers stacked on top of each other oozing, you know, all this like kind of unicorn food, right? It's like this 18 layer rainbow cake that's spewing Skittles. But there's very little, quite often no times even tagging the chef or you know, they'll probably tag the business or something. And I just see these people these events and they come in, they're not there for the if there's if there's an event I'm speaking I go to a lot of food events where you see these food influencers show up and they could care less about whoever the speaker is, or if there's some kind of men are just there for the food. And the photos and the kind of swarm the tables, take their photos and balance with no mention of the chef creating it, maybe the restaurant they're from or even what that event was. They just want To go, be first in line and get a picture of this lamb lollipop, and then bounce and get their free food and they're just kind of removing the food from the whole thing that goes into it. And that's what I find annoying.

I think the thing that's awesome about it. So I mean, I had a former former colleague of mine, who is a food influencer. And as a former because I had to have a conversation with him about how he uses his platform. He posted about I don't know if you guys recall a few, a few levels. Last year, a few months back when there was that raid on the chicken factory that were all the immigrants were arrested. And he posted something about like, food media in his story. He was like food media should be covering this more. You know, but they don't ever want to talk about that. All they want to talk about is like their chefs and restaurants. Like you are someone who goes to restaurants, pulls out your like, little flash and takes photos of food. So I messaged him, and I was like, You are aware that you are a food media. And he was like, What? No, I go to restaurants and take photos of food I was like that is food media. And I don't think that we understand the ways that we are also complicit. I was like, you know, you are literally someone that controls the narrative locally, and you don't understand the stories that you're telling are not good and fair. And they are not the reality. And he has had a story not long ago about a couple of restaurants that actually didn't recently. It was a couple of weeks before. It was this whole crazy story was a couple of weeks before Bon appetit had named a few restaurants here like best new restaurants, one of the like finalists for best new restaurants in America. And he had also been contacted a few weeks before in the summertime by Bon appetit to like, hey, like can you come to this event that we're going to do at this restaurant in Baltimore. And I think it was for like food market like chef Chad Dallas or something and he was supposed to come and it was like sponsored by tell him look ice cream. And he was like he was supposed to come and like take photos and and also like pump it up and get local people in Baltimore to like, show up to this Bon appetit sponsored event. And he had shared that with me. And I was like, Oh, are you gonna go and he's like, no, like, maybe I shouldn't like, I'm not really a fan of like that chef and like happy operates his business. And he had also just opened a restaurant that was like, a very tacky like, quote, take on Asian cuisine. And it was like a fake bodega in the front with like Wu Tang blastin. And like hip hop posters all over the place. Obviously, it didn't last very long. I think it was open for two months. So he chose not to go to this event. This was a petite event. But he also then further like, chose to support a restaurant group that has very problematic hiring practices, and that they don't hire any Baltimore natives. And they don't hire any real, like any people of color. Really, they have maybe one or two out of the three establishments that they have. Maybe four people of color working in front of house, and none of them are Baltimore natives. And they are occupied for white and poor black neighborhoods. And he was saying how like, he posted something and said, how diverse they were, how diverse this restaurant was. And like all these restaurants, they have beautiful spaces, and they're so diverse. And I commented, this is all very true. These are so beautiful. These spaces are beautiful. I love the concepts this person creates, however, not diverse. That's all I said. And it turned into this huge back and forth about like me being negative and me not being supportive of local food business. And I was like, No, this is me just being honest about what's happening and not being in the back pocket of somebody that is giving you like free Japanese whiskey and wines and like, you know, so to me, it's kind of like it but then like a couple weeks later, or a couple months later what happened. That restaurant group became a finalist of Bon appetit magazines like, you know, best restaurants in the country. And I know how these things work because I've been contacted a number of times by publications like this, they don't come here they come they ask the person that is influencer in the area that has been a nationally recognized influencer, who are the people that we should check out in this area. And they will take that suggestion and then they will come down, do some research on it come down and then have an experience for themselves and be like You know what, you're right. That's destiny restaurant. And that is what happened. They came down and they were like, you know what destiny restaurant these places best best new coffee shop. Best thing is that and the other one No real understanding of like the social political climate of the city, no more understanding that, you know, this, this young hipster concept has opened up in a poor black community and like what they're like awarding of best new restaurant will now in turn do to people who are renting businesses or apartments or otherwise. And when I addressed to him, like, you know, you don't understand what you're doing with your media platform as a food influencer, you're going around saying, This is the verse and this is the best this, and you're talking about these like white male chefs and certain other, but you don't understand how you're a tool for these young hipster chefs. And he got very much offended by it and was like, you know, you're just so negative, you want to point out the negative everything that we're doing, or that anybody's doing. I'm trying to bring people together and highlight the least problematic people in the food community. It's like, no, you're not, you're highlighting the cool hit people in the food community. It's like, you can't, it's not always racial, but it is always like, it looks different every time. And so to me, I think that if we understood our power as influencers, whether that was chefs, or food bloggers, or whatever, all of us play a role in. And the thing that that really grinds my gears about food influencers is that they're distorting the narrative of what good food is, what real food is, what chefs look like, and what hard work and diversity and inclusion look like, they are the ones especially when they're young, and especially when they're young and of color, they are the ones that are saying this is okay, this level of inclusion is okay, this level of diversity is okay. And you know, they can come in, take a really beautiful well lit photo and get like, fire a whole menu and then like they can afford to do all those things. And then they can leave and just be like, oh, where to next? Yeah, and throw the trash or be like where to next and not really understand the the toxic Nick toxic narrative that they've just contributed to, or the story that they've created. Now, that is not the reality of what this restaurant group, or restaurants actually doing in the community that they're in. So I hate influencers. Yeah, I hate them, and I think need to be stopped. I don't hate them. Let me stop. I think they can do some good at times. But I do think they need to be more mindful with the things that they post and the things that they share. And I think they need to understand that they are the new food media, they're the reason why a number of local newspapers have stopped running food sections, or have a very short, small critique and review session, because no one is reading that anymore. Everyone's going digital. And the place that they go to where they're trying to find the best restaurant is a place to go when they want to eat Instagram, or Twitter or whatever. They're not going to Baltimore Sun eat section. And then that person, not specifically but like that influencer? By no democracy of the of the community or city they're representing like they get to be the gatekeeper. Yeah, and what does that also say when they are not from that city, and they have no real understanding of like, and that's the person that political theory and gets to pick and choose on the success in that city as a food business. If they if their idea of good food is centered in whiteness, or proximity to whiteness, or European cuisine, or its proximity to European cuisine, the metal problem, especially in a city that is 65%, black like Baltimore is that is so that's such a problem. Anytime that someone who has control over who is successful or who find success in the food scene is one that from there and has no real understanding of the issues facing people who are from us from a city like Baltimore, has control that that's a problem to me, and I do not, I don't know, it may come up as like a very nativist thing to say, but I think that if you're here, you should have an investment in the people. And if you don't have an investment in the people in the city that you've relocated to, then you don't have the right to have a voice to speak for them.

Well, and that was becoming like corporate and unionized because an influencer used to be someone who talked about things they liked. And they did it for free. And you listened to them because you know, I respect Andrew and if Andrews eating at this place, but like have you seen zip kick, like so I actually have their website up right now because there's so many people if the tag is a global marketplace that connects freelancers, influencers and consumer brands and are satisfied partners, McDonald's, Rubio, but basically what you're seeing is four roses bourbon, so now if you want To be like an influencer in the DC market, you go to zip cake and you apply and they connect you with a local zip kick affiliate influencer, who is building a team. So then you're basically on part of a team. And I know some of these people that have some idea of how it works. So now it's not just an individual going out eating places, taking pictures of food and things they like, they're actually getting set up. And you have to go through a gatekeeper of whoever the local zip kick, you know, brand affiliate connector. And you're basically now just being working working for someone else as a media agency, pretending to be true and authentic, when really, they're not. And now you're seeing these people going and posting food, have some local restaurants, and then they'll do a sponsored post by McDonald's. And I've and I've talked to some of these people and said to them, like, Don't you feel that hurts your credibility? And the answer to me was, it pays the bills, like when McDonald's put out the spicy chicken sandwich or whatever, a couple months ago, all the DC food bloggers, who are affiliated with zip kick, went and did sponsored posts for McDonald's. And it's like, in my mind, like, I would never do that to my brand. But I guess some people don't care and go for the money. I mean, I guess it pays the bills, right?

I didn't even know that was a thing. See, and that's, that's what I'm talking about. Like the fact that people have now is really what we were talking about on the break. You know, that decision of like, making that choice of like, when I when I decided to do the Patreon and why I decided to do the Patreon I contacted often to do things like that I sent free stuff, I get sent, you know, gift cards here, but I have to like agree to like, they'll activate the gift card as soon as I agree to like, share a post about where I went and did and like that added a hashtag does that I don't do that. Because I know the power of my voice. And I understand like, to them, it's like $50, and they can just send me but to me, I know what my voice is saying. And I know what, what that can then be a catalyst. And I'm

going to go on record. I don't personally have problems with that. In fact, I'm hoping that some of the chefs in our organization can make true partnerships with business brands. I mean, I think would be smart for if Andrews already using this brand tomato. To do that. I mean, I've gotten deals, I posted something on Instagram and it had photos of like deli court containers that I used to hold stuff in and a company reached out and said like, Hey, can we send you a box of court containers and some money to your PayPal? Like I was already using them anyway. It's not like me taking money from Coca Cola, but I don't drink soda. So I still think there are ways to work with brands that you respect and like, and if someone wants to sponsor me, we're always talking about we're looking for sponsors for the show, and if it's the right person, the right brand, so you know, I just want to make sure I go on record. Now. I don't want people to know I know Chris tacos, deli containers, money, and then a sponsored post but

with partnering, collaboration, collaborative mindset is something that is beneficial to building your brand whether that's like reach wise or financially but I think you have to think about when your partnership what your partnership and what that collaboration says about your brand I guess if we're gonna say brand is that what that says about your brand? what that says about your mission? what that says about that company and why they want to partner with you The thing that I see a problem the thing that I think is problematic about the sponsorship of which I can't believe that's a thing like a food influencer posting about McDonald's is these are the same people that will be like going to a Michelin star restaurant and talking about like they treat their or talking about a local restaurant group it's all about how they treat their employees like crap. What do you think they treat their employees like at freakin McDonald's like and then you want to talk about how like you can go from one farm to table restaurant and be like posting and talking about farm to table restaurant all these like very bespoke ingredients that they use and then go post about me,

but I don't know that a lot of them do what i mean i don't see a lot of really good food influencers getting into those places. I see a lot of

I do and then actually one of my colleagues the one that I was talking about was contacted by Yeah.

But do you think they're more the rarity though for the high end because I see a lot of like a mom and pop shop opens like a new ramen place or a chicken and waffles. And then they get like a gaggle of food influencers to go in. And it seems to be kind of like they're giving away $8 Chicken and Waffles but you're not necessarily getting comped a $200 Michelin star meal

plan The thing I don't think they're getting comped it but what it's doing is creating this, like desire, this desire to want to become this desire to want to go to this place without really understanding the practices of that restaurant, right? It's like creating this exclusivity and saying like, Oh, this is cool. I want to go here, like, how do I get there, everyone's posting about this place now. But the reality is like they are, they have very bigoted hiring practices. And they don't treat women well that work for their restaurant group like, but you've now created this narrative of like desire and like exclusivity, like you can post all these things and talk about how great a restaurant is. But you have no again, going back to influences, not having any real understanding about how the industry works. As far as like working in front of house or working in backup house or sourcing of ingredients, none of those things, they have no real concept, they just know that they can get that exclusivity and that cool factor of posting, most of them don't work in

food or have a background and this isn't their job, it's extra money for them now. Yeah. And they weren't getting it or whatever. And they've never worked a day in their life in the food industry and know very little about what goes on behind the scenes, and practices of spices. But it goes back to what you're saying about like taking grant money, you want to have the hard conversations and maybe some radical ideas. But if you're taking money from a company, they're going to want to limit what you say or what your guests say. And I think if you want to have true freedom to do what you want and say what you want, then you can't be beholden to anyone who's paying the bill.

Yeah. unbought and unbossed. Yeah. Like, you can't, you just can't, there's no way to. I don't know, I think there are ways to be strategic with sponsorship and collaboration that can help further grow a movement, but it won't necessarily further the movement, right? It's always like when people say like, can you dismantle a system from within? Like, the answer is no, like you kind of can't like it's, you have to kind of step away from it is always like that, that. I mean, I created a piece of work around that idea, called the table of white supremacy. And it was like a feast, a table of food, which each item on the table represented a byproduct of supremacy, and how, at the end, we all ate from the table, because we were all we're all complicit regardless of whether or not we want to be or even if we know that we are. And to me, I created that out of always hearing like, we need a seat at the table, ladies need a seat at the table that's like, I don't want to sit at this table. Like that's a very old mindset to me, like this table was never created for me to sit at. And if I'm sitting here, there is something wrong with that. Because I don't want to sit at this table. This table doesn't serve me, it doesn't serve my people. It doesn't serve the vision that I have for the future. So how do I change things at this table? I can't, I have to walk away and I have to build my own table. Like there are things that I can take from my experience at the table, and maybe like, recreate. But oftentimes, that's not really the best option. You just have to like, go and create your own path. And I think that's like what we just talked about, like you guys creating a podcast and me doing the design thing. It's like, it's difficult, yes. But oftentimes to create the vision for the future that we have for our work and for food. And for anything, we have to kind of go outside of the box and just create something that may not necessarily be new, but might be new to your respective community or just new to you. We can't just kind of keep doing the same thing and expect to get different results.

Yeah, I mean, one of my things, and Andrew turned it over. And we've talked a lot about like this working for free and getting chefs to work for free. And I'll post things on our Facebook group. And some people basically say like, stay in your lane. Like, if you don't want to do it, no one's forcing you to do it. But it's like, if no one holds these people accountable and pushes back, then nothing ever changes. If you year after year, hold the same event and get people to work for free and nobody ever calls you on it, then they're never going to offer to pay you money. And this is the first time I'm starting to kind of come in an advocacy role and pushing back and I wrote some letters this past month to some organization saying you know, I got the notices that you're looking for free food from chefs and I want to put it back on you. Why do you think you don't have to pay them for their their labor and their goods. And I feel like that was the spark because then it did trigger other people in my organization to write the same letter to them saying the same thing. And I don't know that it's changing anything this year, but nobody want it. Everyone is afraid of being blackballed. Nobody wants to be the one to come out and say I won't do it because of this. They just say, Sorry, I can't but like there's power in numbers. And that's what I'm trying to do is like standing up and saying like, no, this isn't okay. You have this event every year, and you want people to give away food for 800 people for free. No, that's not cool. You shouldn't expect that and do and do better. You know, it's a for profit agency, it's not a charity. It's an event that's making money. So you need to be paying people for this, and I'm gonna bang that drum. And some people are gonna get on board and some people, they don't want to speak up, but that's okay, too.

I think that's why I mean, I always tell my family like, you know, the exposure pay thing just blows my mind. And it's constantly people are saying, Oh, this will be good exposure, like you should do it. It'll be good exposure now, like, sometimes I do find myself like, Alright, you know what, like, this would be good exposure. And actually don't mind it is kind of a line. And sure, why not. But oftentimes, very rarely does that come across like very rarely do opportunities present themselves in that way. And when they do present themselves, I really have to wait. Because if you think about it, like people die in the wilderness from exposure. Think about it. It's like people died from exposure. And that's literally what happens to a lot of these small businesses and pop up. Like, I remember seeing a video the other day online about this woman who had this, this golf knockoff, this tennis visor, that she created for, like when you're actively like paint sports out in the sun, and it protects your face. One day, this woman who was like caught up in a scandal, like celebrity, she wore the visor, and her sales went from like, nothing to like, insane. Like, they were like, went super through the roof, her visor visor went viral, and it almost killed her business. So it's like exposure, yes, can be good. But what happens is oftentimes, these businesses are exposed, didn't even have visibility, and they are not at a place where they can sustainably support themselves at that high level of visibility. And the thing that was supposed to help them it's actually now hurt them. And this business goes on,

there was a restaurant, I think it was like a burger or something I don't remember, maybe it was Esquire like it was a small place in the middle of nowhere. And like a food writer or something was like driving through town, like I had the best burger of my life there. And it just, it went viral, whether it was eater or bone appetit, rabid or something. And I think eventually they went under because then they had lines out the door. You know, it was like a mom and pop shop just doing like regular food. And then now they've got the best burger in the country. And there's lines out the door. So then they start running out of food, and then everyone's pissed. And then all the reviews come in and giving them a one star because I drove three hours to come to this place to get the best burger in my life. And you ran out of beef at two in the afternoon, you should have expected that. But it was the thing they weren't handled for that, like they blew up literally overnight. And I think they might have eventually closed it was a couple years ago. And you just see that thing. Like they just wanted to go out and do good food and have a business that sustenance sustains them and too much of that exposure. And I think it was just like one piece that put them on the map. I mean, you know, I think as businesses, you kind of hope that you're going to get something like that. But you You know, sometimes be careful what you wish for. Right?

And that's what I wasn't prepared. Okay, if you do take the exposure, pay, sponsorship collaboration, whatever partnership, are you prepared for what this could potentially bring? If it is successful in that way? And if it is successful in that way? Do you have the foresight to say, Okay, we have done enough or, okay, we're going to sell out right now, even though we have enough, we're going to sell it right now. So that we can build up our reserves, our energy, our time our ingredients, whatever our resources so that we can further meet this higher demand. Just being able to kind of like, take control, again, take control of your your business. So that you're not being overwhelmed and not being pushed to the point of exhaustion and depletion. Business wise and also like, emotionally that can be overwhelming. For sure. This conversation has been amazing, super insightful, and very informative and interesting. listeners. All over the place. Sorry. I think you have to go now, right? Yeah, I do have to go. Sorry to the listeners. But we're not even gonna we can do that. I mean, yeah, we'll take that actually. All right, we're gonna I'm gonna ask you some questions. Just answer them as fast as you can. Sure. It won't. It won't take Yeah. So we're jumping right into it. Okay, on the fly. What's your favorite tool in the kitchen? Oh, mandolin. What is your favorite food to eat? Bacon. If you had all the monies, what's the first position you would hire for yourself? An accountant. That's boring in that fun. Tell me who's your favorite chef? My favorite show, I would say, I've not has I have not had their food. But one of my favorite chefs, like conceptually, as far as what they do, is actually a colleague of mine, oh, Marty. And actually, we've never formally met, I'll be meeting him next month at a dinner that he's doing, which will be my first time tasting food. I'm so excited that he has a dinner, pop up called honeysuckle pop up. And he's done some really amazing things in New York and Philly, and I will be at a hospitality conference, a food and beverage hospitality conference called resistance surge is going to be in New Orleans on February 2 to the fifth, and I will be there. And he's going to have the opening dinner on opening night and his dinner series is our really serious dinner series are really their theory, excuse me, they're really interesting and innovative. And I love the way that he uses black American food culture in history and incorporates it in his menu. And the preparation and the way that it's served is very, like visually stunning. And he also does poetry as well, which speaks to me because I also write poetry. And I like to incorporate that when I do dinners. So yeah, I think I think he's really cool. Sorry, that was not a quick answer. But no, it's totally okay. It needed the context. All the listeners, yeah, honeysuckle pop up his Instagram, I believe. All right. So art or science? Both? can't have one without the other. They coexist? And most people don't understand that. But they do. Definitely, yeah. What's one thing you do differently from everybody else? Who are related to food? Or not? Um, I am critical of others, but also very critical of myself. And I think that that is not very visually aware. And I think I, I don't think I'd do it better than anyone. I don't think I do it better than anyone else. But I think I don't do it like many other people. I think people think I'm very hard on people when I'm always talking about the things that are happening. But I'm even more hard on myself with the decisions that I make as far as like, businesses I support or things that I do or don't do, or I fall through on goals and plans. So I'm critical, like any Virgo would be, but I'm also very critical of myself as well. What's your favorite digital tool? Like app or something? Or like my phone? What do you it could be, it could be app, it could be a scale. It could be a thermometer. My favorite digital tool would be the internet. It's highly highly resourceful. Can you recommend a book or podcast? Ooh, whoo. Oh, my goodness, emergent strategy by Adrian Marie Brown. It's not a cookbook, unfortunately. But she uses a lot of beautiful, flowery language, about creating the future that we want, which can be applied to a culinary career, or just social change around you in your respective community, and a podcast. I really love 99% invisible. It's a design podcast that really talks about things that we come across every day that you wouldn't know the backstory of like, they had a really interesting one one time on curb cut, like the things on the corner that we think are like the little ridge, that things that I always thought were to keep wheelchairs from, like, crossing into the street, but it was also I thought they were for blind people to like, but it was like a whole story behind it. And that was completely wrong. But it's a design podcast that talks about how we engage pretty much with the world and the history and story behind those things. That is very literally, no, literally no, not even think that's the word. You know. Cool. We'll link both of those in the in the show notes. And I want to ask you next What's your favorite culinary resources? Um, I would say my favorite Tony resources are most of the time cookbooks and design books which does it seem to make sense. But it's very important. I feel in like the aesthetic nature of creating a dish, especially if you're a very like creative person. And you don't necessarily create dishes in a traditional way. And there are stories behind them. I like to think of myself as a storyteller with food. So things like color theory books, I look at which I have a book, a book that I highly recommend is the secret lives of color. This woman did a research, I guess, pretty much a research book on different colors, their names and why they're named that way. And it gives a very interesting history through the light charity of the rainbow on why different colors like led white and like silver and where silver came from, and, you know, like, talking about how Greek mythology they would say things like the rock, the wine, Red Sea, and this is at a time, like when the sea was first mentioned, and the color of the sea was first mentioned in literature was mission as the wine red sea. And we know that the sea is not red. But what was wine like back then? So it kind of explored this whole history of language and color and how we see things today and what color means in food and also in history and how that is important in the stories that we tell. But yeah, that's that's why I think design is so important when we talk about food. And that's why I was like, I can't choose art or science because we take this as creators in the world and kind of shape the futures that we want. Cool. That was not a fly. I'm so sorry. I'm like on the fly. If it's good, I'm not gonna shoot anybody. So context is very important. All right, how do you decompress? I'm so ashamed. I'm so ashamed. You know I've been decompressing with lately. Like an old lady ever playing Candy Crush. I don't know where this came from. I recently just to decompress. Man, I literally my mom plays candy crush on her tablet. And I was like, I was always like, why don't you do that? And I remember one day just being like, you know what, I'm gonna try it. And I tried it. And I was like, dang, these little vibrations. I need little candy blocks. Like, I get it. This is great. Nothing

wrong. So I started playing fortnight, which sounds ridiculous. But because like my son was so obsessed, and he had never played he played a friend's house. I'm like, I'm gonna see what this bullshit video game. And then I'm like, now you're not playing this. And that's like, I got like, 10 minutes. Like, maybe

I'll go on Yeah,

and go play this game for a few. So I like I'll be in bed. My wife's like you played for them? Like, yeah, like I worked like 15 hours, say, I'm just gonna go like, do this game for like 15 minutes. And then like one in the morning like, oh, man, I need to shut this down.

I think it's one of those things where I feel like I am constantly reading. constantly reading for fun. And for research. I'm constantly engaging in these very political conversations. I'm constantly like doing all of these things that are very emotion filled and like politically charged, and constantly having me thinking and reflecting. Sometimes you just want to do something that sounds and fun colors and doesn't mean anything. It doesn't mean anything. And it's just like everything else. I feel that my life has so much meaning and intention, sometimes I just truly want to unplug and do something that's silly and something that's silly and that, you know, full of like, such intense thought, especially like in living in this crazy country that we live in, right. It's always something going on, you know, so we're never away from, like the issues of the day. So I think that a little silly video game is fine. Yeah. I love it. I get sucked into my silly little games. I play one minute games. It's so intense. And I'll do it for like an hour. Same way fortnight, you know, anyway, what's the best meal you've ever had? Who ever had, um, I don't know if I've had the best meal ever. I've had like top like most memorable meals. But what's the most memorable meal you've ever had? Um, just pick the most. The most powerful meal that I've ever had was one of the most actually was with at dooky Chase. It was the late chef Leah Chase. And that was last year actually. It was last February at the last at first resistance serve conference. And she was so fiery and like full of life. And a few months later, she passed away. But she was hilarious and the food was amazing. And she was still cooking in a wheelchair, just elderly, amazing woman. And I don't know it was it was meaningful and special to me and memorable. Because I knew that I was never going to experience that moment again. And I knew that the food that was being prepared for us was made from the heart. And it was her and Carla Hall, they did the dinner together, she was also at the conference. And in my mind, also, I was like, she's in her later years, like, this might be my last time they experienced this food, and I didn't think it was gonna be a few months later that she would pass away. So it was so it was really special. It was memorable for the emotional reasons, but also just, I don't know, the food was comprehend delicious, you know? Yeah. All right. And the last question that I have, what do you want to be remembered for? I want to be remembered as someone that tried. Someone that tried to make a difference. And in my community, by being honest with myself, and being honest with others, even if it wasn't something that they wanted to hear, I'm really standing by what I believed in and speaking up for others and speaking up. When it came to injustice, and unfairness and inequity. I want to be remembered as someone not that I was a rabble rouser, but I want to be remembered as someone who could not even shut the table but kicked it take a leg off when he was walking away to make their own, you know, I just, um, you know, I don't, I think that a lot of people have this idea in my mind, or in their mind of me, based on how they engage with me online. They think that I am, when it's either good or bad. They think that I'm like, revolutionary, and I speak out and I say these things, I'm creating all these beautiful dishes. And then you have people who are like, a sore loser who didn't succeed in the traditional sense, and is not a real chef and can't cook. And I think and is an influencer. And I think that in a weird way, I could kind of be both of those things. And I'm actually fine with that. But I think I want to be remembered as someone who genuinely genuinely lived with and through food, and didn't have any apologies about how I did that in a public way. Because it was my storytelling, not anybody else's. So I guess that's how I want to be remembered. And that was quick. I fail based on the answers that I gave that were long dissertation. I think I think you'll succeed that you're a real life influencer. Oh, thank you. Thank you. Appreciate that. And that's the important thing. That's all we got. This conversation has been amazing. I think it's time now that we let everybody know where they can follow you. And about your Patreon. Oh, yes. Okay, so you can follow me on Instagram and on Facebook, at Crystal c Mac, that's kr, why sta l. c as in cat ma ck. And my Patreon, which I've just launched, if you want to support me monthly support the programming that I create around food and social design, and the issues that we deal with that are connected to those things. You can go to patreon that's pa t ar e o n.com, slash crystal see Mac, and you'll find ways you can support them. Even if it's just a one time support. There's a link there that shows you where to support or if you could do a minimum of like $1 a month, which is literally like way less than like a Netflix subscription, and actually helps to support not only me, but others in the food community that I work with. That would be amazing. And also my design studio is absent of and that's on Instagram as well. So make sure you follow all those. And we'll link all of it in the show notes. Thanks for listening. Thank you, Crystal so much for coming out. Thanks Thanks for hav Yeah, it's been great. Thank you like and subscribe and please leave us a review on whatever platform you listen on. If you have anything to say to us, you can email us at Chefs Without restaurants@gmail.com. Thank yo for listening.