Vietnamese-American Chef Tu David Phu Talks About His Upbringing, His E-Commerce Food Store, and What Community Means to Him

Chris Spear: 0:00

Welcome, everyone. This is Chris Spear with the Chefs Without Restaurants odcast. Today I have chef Tu avid Phu. Tu is a firs generation Vietnamese-America , born and raised in Oaklan , California. He was on season 5 of the Bravo TV show Top Ch f, and is a San Francisco Chroni le rising star chef. His extens ve resume reflects a wide range of experiences, including bein a chef ambassador for Whole Fo ds Market and a food TV ho t. Welcome to the show.

Tu David Phu: 0:25

Hey, Thanks Chris. Super excited to be on here. Thank you for having me, man.

Chris Spear: 0:28

You're welcome. Thanks so much for coming on the show. This is exciting.

Tu David Phu: 0:32

Absolutely. any opportunity where I could tell my story and connect with another chef, I think there's this understanding and kinship that we have with one another because we're chefs, you know,

Chris Spear: 0:43

yeah, definitely. And, you know, as a personal chef myself, I don't work in a traditional restaurant setting, and all of our guests, and I'm really trying to share the stories of these people doing interesting things that don't pertain to restaurant cooking. I mean, you've done restaurant cooking, but now you're kind of doing your own thing, as many of us are. So I'm always interested in kind of the path that people take to get there that the hows and whys and find out a little bit about them.

Unknown: 1:08

Absolutely. And I think that's great. Because I think so far, probably you'll find out not just from me, but from the other people that you spoke to. or the people that you interviewed, and no one's path is linear, right? It'd be so ideal that if it's linear, you do this, you did this. And this happens. But

Chris Spear: 1:25

yeah, and things, things change all the time, like Chester that restaurants I've said a number of times, I thought was gonna be like, like a little club of four people that I knew, like, we could just gig share, and talk about, like how to become personal chefs. And it blew up to over like, 200 members within a week of love announcing it was crazy. Like, I have a podcast with like, thousands of members, like across all platforms worldwide. Like I still don't know what I'm doing. People are like, what chefs are that restaurants, I'm like, I don't know, we're kind of like a community. Like it's free join, join, and you know, we'll help each other,

Unknown: 1:54

I think you should find pride in the fact that you don't have to, or have a need to explain to people on what it is. Because I think at the end of the day, for people who get it, they get it and it reflects in the thousands of members that you have on all your different platforms, right. So yeah, it's like the chef thing. It's like, if you're a chef, you know, you get it. You know, I think I think you're speaking, I think you're creating, you're creating a space for a culture of people who probably before didn't have a space to talk about that stuff. So that's why I signed on to this is that, you know, I think it's very unique. And, you know, I think conversations that happen here won't exist anywhere else. So good for you.

Chris Spear: 2:31

Yeah, and I think so many of us are entrepreneurs, you don't have to be an entrepreneur. I mean, we have people who, you know, work in contract food, or their r&d shafts or something like that. But the whole idea of being so many of us do have our own businesses, and we're not naturally business people, right? Like you. Maybe go to school for Culinary Arts, and you've only worked in restaurants or something. And then you want to start a food truck or catering business, like, what's your experience on that? And like, once you go out and do it, who do you have to lean on? And say, like, hey, how do you how do you do this? Like, we were just talking off air before this, and you said, Oh, I create a Google form for that, like, that's a great idea. Those are the kinds of things these conversations with people, and they can maybe see something that you don't and, and provide some tips where you're not going to get that talking to necessarily like a chef who's working in a restaurant because they have totally different experiences.

Unknown: 3:19

Absolutely. Absolutely.

Chris Spear: 3:21

So I'd love to start talking about your upbringing a bit. I know your parents came over from Vietnam in the 70s. What was your childhood like and your upbringing.

Unknown: 3:30

So my parents are from specifically My parents are from an island called footfallcam, and those southernmost tip of Vietnam, and on that island, big experience, not one but two wars, so Vietnamese American war, and then the Cambodian Vietnam War, which was against the C'mon, Rouge. Um, so I think just starting off the conversation with the understanding that they experienced tremendous amounts of PTSD, landed in Thailand in a refugee camp for a year got sponsored over and then ended in Oakland, in a underserved community. So I think for me growing up, it was a, you know, I had a good childhood, but I wasn't as privileged or at the benefits of what most youth would have here in the United States. You know, I basically just to kind of cut straight to the point I grew up hungry, I was poor. But I think the beauty in all that was that I didn't realize that I was poor too much, much later. I think if anything, there's a there's a beauty and genius to the way my parents raised me was that I didn't feel poor. In my youth, and I think they did that through food and some sorts, you know, I think that's why weird obsession with food,

Chris Spear: 4:52

and they had pretty working class jobs when they came over here, didn't they?

Unknown: 4:56

Absolutely. They came over and they were janitors at the fox. in Oakland, and one job left to the lead to the other, but eventually or essentially they became my mother became a lifelong seamstress, now retired and retired as a seamstress as well to my dad was a lifelong, a career long fishmonger and he's retired as well too. I think fishmonger sounds a lot prettier than it actually is. But fishmonger work is extremely, extremely laborious and demanding on your body, he works night shifts, works in a cold refrigerator. And oftentimes, not to put anybody out there, but he worked under the table not pay cash, you know. Um, so just kind of wrap things up and keep it fairly straightforward as I feel like I come from fairly humble beginnings. But I think that's what translates into my work ethic and my understanding of the world and people and, you know, navigating to where it's navigated me to where I am today, as of 2020.

Chris Spear: 5:58

What was food like in your house growing up? Were you eating traditional Vietnamese food? Could you even find those ingredients at the time? Because now, you know, you can get fish sauce at every grocery store now, but I can't imagine what it was like growing up back then.

Unknown: 6:12

That's a great question, Chris. Yeah, growing up in Oakland, and being Vietnamese American and Oakland, especially in the 80s. In the 90s. I, I think the access to Asian food and Asian ingredients, specifically Vietnamese was very, very seldom. And then even if you were able to, I feel like the quality was subpar. And I think to be more specific the region My parents are from, when people think of Vietnamese food, it's very general, and I think been mean, my parents are from an island. And they were pescatarians up until they immigrated over here. So the cuisine that we ate and the food ingredients that we were accustomed to. We couldn't get access to those ingredients here. So everything that I ate that I thought was Vietnamese, in my youth, was actually my mother's improvisation of what she knew as cuisine. All throughout my youth because maybe number one, we didn't have enough money. or number two, she cooked in Thailand, and she brought a recipe with her for another interesting one was that we had a a woman of Korean descent that was a neighbor of ours, but spoke fluent Vietnamese because she was born in Vietnam, but her family was of Korean origin. Is that crazy? Yeah. So So growing up, I thought she was Vietnamese, but she taught my mom a bunch of Korean dishes. So for years all the way up until like my late teens, I was eating Korean dishes thinking that it was enemies. You know, that's interesting. Isn't that crazy? like yeah, things things as universals anchovies, you know, like, everything that I thought associated with an anchovy that was Asian which for me stemmed back to being Vietnamese because a fish sauce and I think, an adolescent or young team that's that's a that's a totally reasonable assumption, correct? Yeah. So there's there's this Korean dish where they serve a pan fried crispy anchovies and they they spiking with jalapeno and you eat it with rice. For years I thought it was really means, you know, and it's just it put me in a conundrum in a sense were going into high school, right out of high school, going into culinary school, learning about other people's cuisines. And then 10 years later, I pivoted back on Scooby tummies food, I went down this whole rabbit hole of what identity culture and what the the meat what authentic Vietnamese food was. And the things that I cooked is very, very different things that I in my household is very, very different than what you see on Instagram or even what Anthony Bourdain, God rest his soul showed on the show because, like any other country in the world, it's impossible to generalize or summarize a region's cuisine. Like, let's use Italy, for example. Italy has so many so many communities and districts in and different geographies, from desert, mountain, ocean, coastal, all that stuff. You know, so someone from Venice and someone from Sicily will absolutely eat different food completely different. Right? Even their accents will be completely different, you know? And I started coming to that understanding once I started cooking in a nice suit. So to kind of like, repeat my answer in a short format. It was fairly Alan's fairly confused as a kid eating Vietnamese food and eating food in my house.

Chris Spear: 9:39

Is there a big Vietnamese community in Oakland?

Unknown: 9:42

There is a pretty sad, pretty substantial Vietnamese community here not big enough to have their own established community. In East Oakland. We have a little Saigon the same way LA or Orange County has a little Saigon. You know, and I think San Jose, absolutely. stumps our Vietnamese community, I think by double. Yeah,

Chris Spear: 10:07

I hadn't really experienced until we lived in Seattle, like early 2001 2002. And that was the first time I really, I'd ever been to a Vietnamese restaurant. Like I grew up outside of Boston, we didn't really have a big community there. So I had never even had Vietnamese food until like, 2001 when I moved to Seattle, but you know, something that strikes me and I'm sure this is something you may be experienced. So my hometown was a fairly, it was an almost all white suburban city in Massachusetts. And I remember there being a Vietnamese restaurant. And like, my dad was kind of racist, like I've told people like, but we were not allowed to go there. Like there was this holdover about the whole, you know, Vietnamese American war. And like, we were not going to support these people who owned a shop. And I can't imagine how hard that was from them. Because I know my dad was not the exception, he was probably the rule in that town. And I can imagine them coming here trying to make their own open up a restaurant, just these people like not eat there because of a war that had occurred like 2030 years ago, but I never got to eat there. And I kind of wish I did, because it's some of my favorite food.

Unknown: 11:09

I appreciate that you said that. There's recent independent film that I watched that maybe shed a tear about us American soldiers and veterans and whatnot. And, you know, Vietnamese immigrants, what it's called seadrift, was about the conflict between the Vietnamese immigrants that were taking up a small coastal town in Texas, and dispute between them, and other generation long white fishermen. And they were both competing combating for fishing territory along the coast. And I think both men were more veterans. One of them Vietnamese, the other American, however, both were democratic, you know, they were both fighting for pro democracy. But they had a debacle amongst each other, they were fighting each other this whole time. And after a few arguments and conflict, a few people got seriously hurt, another person died. And it took someone's death for that war veteran man to understand was that these people who are coming over are not the people, we were fighting in Vietnam, who were the people who were trying to save, you know, and I know, our country is amongst extremely difficult times at the moment, and no matter what, I think presidential candidates are one thing, policies and politics or another. But I really believe I really, really believe in democracy. And I feel like if you put the right people in that system, I think democracy will prevail. You know, my family, and my history of being Vietnamese and Vietnamese American, like we've suffered at the hand of the Vietnamese government, which I'll try not to get into much detail. And I feel that our opportunities here in the United States, we've been very, very blessed, you know, and I think I'm not trying to demonize people or certain cultures, but I do believe that there are certain individuals in the world that that are born just evil. You know, I think it's things like democracy, whether it's in the United States or fucking Sweden, or whatever other country that's practicing democracy, hopefully in the right ways, or even France or whatever. I feel like democracy prevents them, you know? Yeah. Oh, definitely don't. We don't live in a pretty world I think people forget.

Chris Spear: 13:31

Did you ever feel, I don't wanna say shame, but like embarrassed of your culture. Like, I know, there's a lot of people who come over from other countries and even first generation who tried to Americanize themselves. Like my wife has a friend whose family came over. And you know, my wife talks about her friend changing his name to an American name, because, you know, whatever was just easier to go by his American name than his Vietnamese name, like, did you ever go through anything like

Unknown: 13:54

that? Um, I don't know if I had a self shame. But so first, I'm very proud of even Emmys. I'm very proud to be American. I think all those come with growing pains, no matter what generation or decades you come, you know, and I think in my youth, I did have a, I don't know if it's a self shame. But I did have a struggle with identity, in a sense, where I didn't know my own culture. I didn't know my own history of mind you that my parents had PTSD. So they didn't tell me anything about Vietnam or the history of the war. All I knew was that, you know, they try to assimilate, in a sense, where they said, if you'd be more American, that would be more ideal for you. Because just to give you more detail, my dad is half Come on. Meaning that's half Cambodian. And during the Khmer Rouge war, an era in this late 70s, early 80s on doubt that he was converted, they would kill him. It's kind of also in relation to the Nazis because it was genocide. Right? You know, for and I and I had this conversation with older Jewish people who experienced Nazis and whatnot, was that the trauma that instills in a someone where they have to hide who they are in fear of death, you know?

Chris Spear: 15:16

Yeah, I can't imagine.

Unknown: 15:18

So I feel like that's what, that's where my parents were coming from. And I think for me, I was always naturally curious. I always wanted to wonder why, you know, and I had a American name, but I always embrace my Vietnamese name ever since I was little because, um, the region that we're from, we didn't look like everyone else. Every other video is Vietnamese, immigrant or Vietnamese American here in California. I don't know if you could tell, but I'm a big guy. I'm like, 226 263.

Chris Spear: 15:49

That's pretty big.

Unknown: 15:51

And I've always been a big kid, you know, like I so I was never just physically, in a very judging sort of general scale. If someone saw me on the street, it's very seldom that they would, even if they were Vietnamese, it's very seldom they would associate me with being venomous. I was always mistaken for something else, like Hawaiian or Filipino or whatever, that's not going to be you know,

Chris Spear: 16:14

so the hormones and the American food and milk, right.

Unknown: 16:18

Well, my dad's a big guy, too. He's because we're Islanders. We're from an island where it nurse that's, that's both patriarch and matriarch. So the structure and build from both families, my mom, all the men wear skinny and tall, and then my dad side, everyone was thick, like they look like Hawaiians. And I think it goes, not just the diet here, but it goes back generations, because we ate a very high protein ocean diet, you know, my dad for an Asian man. I mean, he's in his mid 60s now. So as you get older, you shrink a little bit, but I think he's like, 510. You know? That's a nice, what? 200? Right now, it's like 260.

Chris Spear: 16:58

Wow,

Unknown: 16:59

he's a big dude. Yeah. So I think that's the thing is that, I think more so and what we think of our everyone has some sort of prejudice, but I think it's the effort to correct them. Right. But I think our prejudices around people of origin in terms of like skin color, and continental continental link, like Asia, Africa, and all that stuff. I think a lot of it's incorrect. And I think Warsaw, I think you said it was that? I think people sizes are more reflective on their diets. You know, what they eat? Like, there's no way to be big and strong. If you if you've been malnourished generationally, right? It just doesn't make any sense. Right? Not at all.

Chris Spear: 17:40

So how did you get into food and cooking? Is it something that you just decided, like, at what point did you think, Oh, I want to go and become a chef.

Unknown: 17:49

You know, I think I spoke early in the beginning that I have this very strange relationship with food, I think mainly, in part are mainly because I grew up very hungry. I think I've always loved food. And I think in the environment that I grew up in, you know, just to kind of shoot straight to the point, I don't feel like there's a lot of celebratory moments, I don't think there was a lot of choice moment, Joy ish moments in my childhood. And I, you know, the memories of food that I do have are, you know, you know, the meal that I imagined or that I that I recall, in terms of my youth, other people would say I remember my mom and make my birthday cake, or, you know, we have a 10 foot tray of lasagna or turkey dinners. I didn't have those sort of memories as a kid. You know, I mean, there were moments where, you know, we would go to other people's houses, and there'd be a grand feasts or every few times a year where we have like a lot of food. But I think for the most part, there's just one meal that I always remember is that my mom would get chicken bones from a butcher shop. Because back in those days, butcher shops would throw away chicken bones like nothing. And they will leave it out for people to take him get to they'd never charged for chicken bones back in the day. So my mom would just go to the mart or go to the shop butcher shop or wherever had a butcher counter and get those chicken bones and go home and make a soup. You know, that's like, that's like Charlie, the Chocolate Factory cabbage soup sort of stuff. You know, we had that with rice that that was my constant view as a kid. And I remember growing up very, very hungry. And MIT when you start to grow, it's like an invasive species. Right? It grows everywhere. Oh, yeah. Well

Chris Spear: 19:30

ours out. Yeah.

Unknown: 19:32

So it was that in men. And the thing I love about mint was that it was the one thing that I got as a whole ingredient that was like fresh and vibrant. So I think coming from that sort of history, I want it to cook and nourish myself and experiments at home because now I have the power to contribute and you know, do something and my stomach's hurting around right. And then naturally coming out of high school, I decided to be a chef. You know, other people's like Christmas presents under the tree. For me it was like eating food, you know? And you know, like I, I don't know if some people will consider that an eating disorder in any sense, but I don't think ever got to that extreme but I think that obsession was, is what got me here to where I am today is loving food and it's all aspects of not just consuming the history of the technique and learning about it and and furthering it my career, all that stuff. So

Chris Spear: 20:30

I can't imagine what it's like to to go hungry. I had a foster sister growing up and she moved in with us when she was, I think like 15. And the,

Unknown: 20:39

you know, got got hit god bless your parents, man. That's, that's God's work. Absolutely. God's work.

Chris Spear: 20:44

I was like nine and they decided they want to bring someone in. But you know, she had lived in a group home for a while. But one of the things like my mom would go grocery shopping, and she would take like a sharpie and write like her name on things like earmarking things, or she would like open a carton of milk and like drink a swig so that no one else wanted. And it's like, it took so long to get through to her like no, no, like, you're not gonna go hungry like this milk is for everyone. You don't need to take a swig out of it and put a marker on it. Like you don't need to claim it. When we're out of milk, we're gonna go to the store and get more and that was like the first kind of glimpse into that kind of thing that I saw. And I remember being like, nine years old, you know, and you'd go, it's like, why is there a hotdog with like a bite taken out of it in the fridge. But that was like her way of claiming food, so that no one else would eat that. And it was really sad to kind of see that. So, you know, that kind of resonated with me?

Unknown: 21:33

Yeah, I think that's the one of the beautiful thing about the institutions that exist in the United States is that, you know, there's food banks, you know, there's the library, like, stuff like that, would it happen? I don't think those types of resources in other countries, you know, the best chef, like, I think those are the things that drive me the most, you know, what I mean is that it's those types of stories. And the magic you and I make on a plate we, we have that power to with our resources. Not just changed somebody's mood, but makes a small difference in, in a person in a day in a meal in many meals, whatever it is here. I mean, I think that's the beautiful part about food.

Chris Spear: 22:18

Yeah, I mean, most of the the events I do now, they're all special events. I've done two weddings this week, you know, and to be able to be part of someone's life, which is really weird for me, because I only do small events, like I max out at 20. And now all these people are having these, you know, we're talking about the word micro weddings, but I did a wedding reception for 11, and a wedding reception for 10, which is crazy. So now I'm doing weddings. And that's not something I've ever really done, but also for forever to be linked in these people story of you know, but I really, I love that feeling. Because you're seeing these groups, there's so much more connected, like I remember, you know, even my wedding, which wasn't crazy, but like you have all these people there and you're being pulled to all these conversations, and you're not really connecting. But now with COVID people are having small parties, and it's just really the most important people in your life. It's like a dozen people just coming together around a table having some food. They're DJing nothing themselves and having like an amazing time and I kind of hope there's, you know, some of that sticks around that people readjust their priorities and don't go back to spending $50,000 on you know, one huge wedding reception, although I'm sure caterers don't want to hear that. But you know,

Unknown: 23:27

I think it is because they opened a new door for that. I don't think it's ever gonna go away once once the doors open for that, you know what I mean? Yeah, um, but yeah, I think I think I really appreciate, like you said, the power that food has, you know, I think just through the power of food alone, it took me to San Quentin, which is a penitentiary here in California. And it took me there to be a volunteer to work with incarcerated men to kind of heal them through food and I've worked with you know, slawson AV, Los Angeles, Crips arion brotherhood individuals, you know, they're obviously they've been hurt rehabilitated, but them cooking along with other people who don't look like them. And that sort of space. I think, I think that was I continually feel blessed that I was part of something like that that provided healing you know,

Chris Spear: 24:24

so why that why them what what made you decide you want to go work with them in particular,

Unknown: 24:29

growing up in Oakland, my experiences mirrored a lot of my peers experiences in terms of like our youth and what we've been through and what we've been through and all that stuff. However, their lives went a different route. And I felt that my what I was in some magical, universal blessing or whatever it is, whatever you want to call it, I was able to stay on my path. And it really bothered me because I couldn't understand why. And I think the sort of the explanation, the default explanation for most would be like I did better, I'm stronger, I'm better. I thought that was complete bullshit, you know, and it really disturbed me as I got older and going into my adulthood, those same peers, a lot of them have already passed away, you know, they, they're either they are either murdered, or they were assaulted. They were, they were either a victim of a murder, or they were somehow caught in, like, some sort of weird debacle that, that involves some sort of, like, freak, freaky violence, you know. And I think that always stuck with me, and, you know, new, whether you're a kid from Oakland, or a kid from Boston, Massachusetts, at the end of the day, when you're a baby, you're a child, that innocence starts with everybody, everyone's the same in their youth. So I know, these individuals of who they are in their youth, you know, in who they really are, before they were sworn. And that, I think that always bothered me. And I think that's what took me into prison was that, you know, in some sort of essence, that was never able to save my friends. But if I can put into some work to help changing the life of one individual in my time there, I thought that for me that that idea was at least somewhat fulfilling for me, you know,

Chris Spear: 26:27

on, it seems like you're very involved in your community, not just with that. So what is what is community mean to you, and being part of a community and helping out in your community?

Unknown: 26:37

You know, I think as of 2028, you know, before I thought my community was just Oakland, and in the places that I exist in, and as my career bloomed, you know, I think other people from other communities around the nation, wherever else reach out to me and be like, Hey, I'm inspired by you and XYZ, you do this. And, you know, so I think from there, and as I connected with other chefs around the nation, and in Vietnam, or whatever it might, my network expanded. And I felt that it would be selfish for me to be like, I'm trying to just take care of people from where I'm from, and I'm ignoring the issue in other places. So I think, as a 2020, my definition of community has expanded, I think it's, it's, for me, it's community means there's an effort to care for each other. You know, and if there's other people who want, who wants to go into that space, and like, be ethical and heal and move forward and be righteous and be righteous. And both the non religious and the religious sense, whatever it is being ethical as a person having any compassion. I would say when I use the term community, that's that's what I'm welcoming in. So that's what that means to me. I think, in terms of the extent of it, I think the farthest that I could go is, within my network within my resources, you know? No, complicated.

Chris Spear: 28:07

Yeah, no, no, yeah, it's really great. Because not everyone gets involved in, in a community at all, I think it's really easy to get kind of self absorbed in everything that you're doing, and just go about and your community as essentially like your family in your neighborhood, I think it it takes a concerted effort to say no, I'm gonna donate time or resources, or whatever it is to people within some kind of community, whether that be locally or globally, which, you know, you can do some stuff online. So I think it's great to be able to be active in your communities.

Unknown: 28:39

Yeah. And it's, like I said, if there's any restrictions, for me, it's a resource plan. You know, what I mean, where, you know, whether I don't have the energy or the capacity or even the connection to so. But I think I think that's the blessing of the digital age, if you will, normal virtual stuff is that, you know, whatever efforts you're doing right now could be, if done, right, could be echoed out further than, than your city walls and borders, right. So,

Chris Spear: 29:04

it most definitely is someone who's built a community online, like that's, you know, what I'm doing with shops about restaurants isn't necessarily like helping people in need. But I've built a community that lives in the internet, you know, and I can connect with people locally. Via that, but you can do the same with, you know, whatever organization you're trying to work with to help. Absolutely.

Unknown: 29:24

I'm super proud to say that, that I am a community advisor for a nonprofit organization in Oakland Chinatown call Oakland Asian Cultural Center. And in my youth, they were a safe space for me to go to for after school for after school activities and all that stuff, you know, a place right to learn more about myself. So it's, and I'm super proud to say that, that I've gotten to a place in my career where I can creatively find ways to help out and give back. So I think that's important too, is that eliminating this sort of wrapper? notion you know how rapper Sam's self made? I think it's complete bull crap.

Chris Spear: 30:04

Yeah, so, so who helps you if you're not self made, like, who do you say, gave you a foot up?

Unknown: 30:12

This is the power of mentorship. Every single one of my employers that patted me on the back when I was young and said, I did a good job. Everyone that took time out teachers as well coaches as well, to said that if you apply yourself, whether it's in this or something else, that something good is gonna come out of it. Because I have to tell you just continuous examination of my own personal life. It just as the more I start to understand that all these other people in my life were just as important. In addition to my parents, I start to understand that that seeing is absolutely true is that it really takes a village to raise a child absolutely does. You know, I find the most healthiest individuals. But I look up to that I aspire to be more like the people who's gotten to the heights that I wish that I would get to both the ones that I know, personally, the ones that I don't know, I always hear and see these stories of like, beyond their parents, but how certain how communities, or certain key aspects of people in communities have empowered them, and help molded them to become the person that they are today. And I guarantee you, like every person on the face of this earth, where they're in a good place, can say absolutely the same. You know, and I think, you know, just speaking on the topics of parents as well, too. There's, I think, with parents, or even teachers, or coaches, whatever, I think that the notion that people have ideal parents, ideal communities, ideal settings, I think you could learn how not to be from the wrong environments as well, too. But it takes I think, sometimes it takes the individual to realize that in some magical shape, or form, you know, maybe being introduced by somebody else, through self education, through reading, whatever it is,

Chris Spear: 32:14

you know, it's hard to break out of those molds, you know, because so much is learned behavior and environmental, you know, like, I had referenced before, like, my dad had a very racist kind of worldview on things that would be very easy for me to adopt those kind of feelings and beliefs. You know, I was raised in a republican household. And when I turned 18, I registered as republican and I voted that way, just because like, that's what you did. That's what I looked like, I didn't even know what that meant, you know, I didn't know anything about the candidates. And it's very easy to be 40 years old, and still having the beliefs that your parents had, and, and doing all that stuff. And I think at some point, you know, it's hard, I don't even know, I guess, maybe going away to college and living on my own is where I kind of figured out who I was. But what if you're not that person? What if you live at home until you're 20, and then move off? Like, and you don't develop any thoughts of your own, you know, so it could be very easy to just perpetuate that cycle. That's,

Unknown: 33:05

that's that that's a great point. But I think in moments like this, this is where I reference history. I think self education is extremely powerful. And I think, in this era, I don't think people take it as seriously as they did back then. You know, the great, the great dictators of history, what's the first thing that they did? Or what's the first thing that they attacked when they took over a country in a nation

Chris Spear: 33:28

education book, they were burning up, that's

Unknown: 33:30

right, they would burn all the education institutions down, they burn all the books, they would take your thoughts away, they would take your opinions away, they would forbid your opinions. I think that's the key thing is that if you're able to self educate or introduce education, to an individual, I think that's the most powerful thing. I think, if our school systems and school structures were stronger, I feel like a lot of our society's issues will go away, that go away, but like, it would it would be more preventative, if that makes any sense.

Chris Spear: 34:07

Yeah, I mean, we're we're focusing in my opinion on a lot of the wrong things, you know, not to slam the education system. I have children who are in elementary school right now. And you see some of the things they're learning like, you sometimes it's like, your, your eyes are on the wrong prize, right? Like you're teaching them these things to be like factory workers or whatever, you know, the the education and you're not teaching them like I think you should be learning more soft skills and maybe that's a parent's, you know, job, but like, just having them be super competitive in math and science, I don't think is gonna make a person that we need to have in the world. You know, that's not a balanced education from what I'm seeing.

Unknown: 34:45

Absolutely. I agree. thousand percent. You know, and I think I think there should be more emphasis on history as well too, because I feel like history, you can only learn so much, but there's, I feel like there's a lot more to the world in terms of like, understanding And the more one understands about the world, the more you can understand about yourself, more you can understand about yourself, the more you can gear yourself forward in the right direction. You know, I'm a big, big history fan. I'm a big English fan, you know, in terms of like grammar. Um, I didn't go to college, you know, I had to learn all this after the fact, you know, sort of like an alternative way, if you will. I'm super passionate about public speaking to, I think, speaking correctly speaking, in front of audience speaking to lead a team, those are absolutely extremely powerful assets that I feel in my education, I don't know about now, was absolutely undervalued. You know, yeah, I'm

Chris Spear: 35:40

appreciative when I was in college. I have a bachelor's degree in culinary arts. But for the last two years, you have to take a public speaking class, you have to take a business ethics class, you take all these things, and I remember so many of the students being so upset about that, you know, like, I'm here to be a chef, why the hell am I taking public speaking? It's like, well, if you want to move up the ranks, like eventually, you're going to need to be able to communicate effectively with your teams. And absolutely, business ethics. Makes sense. Like, who wants a shady businessman? You know, I think more restaurant tours probably should have taken a business ethics class.

Unknown: 36:15

Absolutely.

Chris Spear: 36:17

So you went through some really well known Michelin starred restaurants, when did you decide that that wasn't the path for you that you, you know, you enjoyed your time there, but it didn't really kind of resonate with who you were as a chef.

Unknown: 36:30

I think, for my family history, and the source of cuisine for me, it was always matriarchal. And I think culinary school for me was very patriarchal. And not that that's a good or a bad thing. But for me, those two styles were so different. You know, and in addition to that, patriarchal versus matriarchal, my mom being from the region, where she came from and experience she's been through, she would tell me, that bitter is good. You know, your classic, French trained chef was, say, eliminate as much bitter as you can, you do not want bitter? You know? Yeah. And I think that was where the huge conflict was there for me not to say that one is better than the other. But after you know, some French training, submission and French training, some Michelin, that's how you cooking. I wanted to see what my mom was talking about. So opposed to putting in my early career, I would put European French American astronomy on a pedestal now at the little my mother unknowingly, because I'm like, this is what I learned in culinary school. Mom, Baba, look,

Chris Spear: 37:42

I did that too.

Unknown: 37:43

Yeah, right. And as I got older, my career 10 years into my career, I wanted to balance that house. So I'm like, you know what, I want to learn more about what my mom's cooking, and her grassroots generation old wisdom, see how they cook. And I think I absolutely fell in love with it. And my efforts to understand how my mom cook was, you know, my pursuit to cook authentic Vietnamese food and the fucked up part. The funny part about that is that in my pursuit of that, it just got more, I got more and more loss into it and away from cooking, authentic Vietnamese food, which is a general term, I think, more than anything. The beautiful coincidence about it was that, I think, learning about my mother's recipes and my family's recipes and how they cooked. It opened this Pandora's box, have their experiences, you know, with war and their history, and, and that, for me, was sort of the safe space for them, especially my mom to open up. And I was finally able to learn about what they've been through pains before us and the pleasures in their personal histories, which I you know, I didn't I wasn't out for that issue.

Chris Spear: 39:07

Yeah, I'm sure that was super hard for them to talk about. I don't think I'd want to be sharing that that often with my family.

Unknown: 39:14

Absolutely. And totally understandable. And just to kind of like, slightly pivot and speak to my projects that I'm doing now is that a few years back, I started a food media company in efforts to kind of like, keep track of these stories that my mom is telling. So and As of early this year, we finished a short film, and it's going to be showing on QED California and then public broadcasts at PBS national specifically, I think by February, so November QED, which is local here in February, national PBS, I'll keep you posted.

Chris Spear: 39:51

Yeah, please do because I'll be sharing that out. Yeah. So it seems like you're doing all this stuff on your own. Now. You know, you've got your website, you're doing some cooking classes. online. And I'd love to hear a little bit about your spice and Vietnamese ingredient company that you started to Why don't you talk about that a little bit?

Unknown: 40:09

Absolutely. Well, I just want to be very transparent in a sense where I think it's my responsibility as a coach shift just like yourself as well, too. But at the beginning of the year, you know, I had no plans to start like a spy story. Zero, you know, zero no plans, right? Um, as March comes around, Gavin Newsome or mayor, he issues shelter in place. Um, I'm sorry, January 2020. We have two letters of commitments from kick udps. You know, I'm, I'm going to film all this year, new TV shows, whatever, whatever, right? March comes around, Gavin Newsome issue shelter in place, you lose all of our funding. We'll have nothing, I have nothing planned for the year, I had to clear my schedule out,

Chris Spear: 40:53

that's got to hurt.

Unknown: 40:54

That's a dream, right? That's like, that's like, you know, like, every, every, every chef's dream is to, like, you know, go to your TV show, whatever, be like Anthony Bourdain, or whatever, right?

Chris Spear: 41:04

How long have that been in the works?

Unknown: 41:06

Um, as a company, we've been together for about three, three and a half years. So it's a lot of investment, a lot of energy, a lot of time, a lot of not a lot of being discrete. Because the things that you're working on, you don't know how they would formulate out later, there's no guaranteed, you know, so you really wouldn't speak about it up until you get a you get a deal. Right? Yeah. It's just how those things play out. It's like opening a restaurant, you could spend two years opening a restaurant, but you notice a lot of buildup, but there's no guarantee that you're gonna open on day one. But yes, so, you know, I was absolutely distraught, you know, completely rocked that we lost our funding, and we had to, like, we still had an opportunity, especially in March, that's where our nation, our world, or international community in the world, you know, there's a lot of suffering that was happening from Black Lives Matter to rioting to and just wanna make it very clear this different thing of protests and rioting. Right, yeah, um, two fires that happened in California. So I think, especially because here in California, we're stuck indoors, I wanted to do something to contribute and help the effort. So I started hosting virtual cooking classes on my website, Chef two.com. And I charge 20 bucks, you can't afford 20 bucks for a class, there is an honorary discount code if you sign up for my newsletter. So this 50% off. So this 10 bucks, I'm sure anyone can afford 10 bucks for quite a bargain. Yeah. In addition to that 50% of those proceeds have been going to nonprofit organizations or causes, you know, everyone from fire victims, to organizations to community centers. And I've been doing that ever since. And I'm super proud in the collaborations that I've hosted with other partnering brands and friends of mine, where they would donation match. I think our most recent one was on that, which I'm going to do right now is I partnered up with Twitter and Twitter's doing a donation match. I think our goal is 5000. I think we're like $1,000 away, stuff like that, that adds up. Yeah, and we need to give some of that that we're gaining as well, too. I think in part because we're in a time and place in Earth's history where we, you know, we can't pick and choose anymore, we have to do a little bit, we have to give a little bit. Because if we don't, there's no guarantee for next year, five years from now, or 10 years from now, right? Or 50 years from now,

Chris Spear: 43:30

no guarantees at all, we've learned that this year if if nothing else,

Unknown: 43:34

Mm hmm. And then that sort of migrated over to starting an e commerce spice store. Asian spice store. I think mainly in part because the past few years, I've been doing a lot of advisory and consulting and product development work for a few organizations and, and companies like Whole Foods and in a food robotic space and kind of everything in between. and, and I do the fancy food show as a secret judge as well to us, right? You see my face. Don't Don't be mean to me. But I was like a secret judge for the fancy Food Show like multiple years. And there's always people in the industry that brings me products. And I taste it. Like this stuff's amazing. And However, because they're small producers, it's hard for them to get into the retail ecosystem. And it was because of the pandemic, where direct to consumer stream from producers, um, became an open channel. And I wanted to be able to work with these small brands, and these are Asian producers that just from Asia, but all over the world domestically, internationally. And I'm just saying Asian, because, respectfully, those are the ingredients that I know best. You know, I think it'd be unfair for me to grade quality of, you know, balsalmic from Italy, or

Chris Spear: 44:55

sauce or something or married.

Unknown: 44:56

Yeah, and I'm not talking about appropriation, but I will Be appropriating if I pretended that I was an expert at it, you know what I mean? However, if I grew up in Italy, and I've, you know, I made balsalmic all my life, absolutely. So, but that's just the things that I know best. And those are the products that I get the most off. I wanted to create a platform to help these products that just promote the Connect to wholesalers and homebuyers and direct to consumer and all that stuff. And so far, it's been an absolutely fun project because I got to get these small producers products into quite a few people's hands and quite a few retail outlets. So

Chris Spear: 45:37

I hate using the term like influencer, because you're a chef, but like, that's what an influencer is right? Like someone who has some influence. I think with a chef having a platform where you're getting Well, you can hopefully get that product to more people. And then

Unknown: 45:52

yeah, I hear what you're saying. But I prefer the terms. entrepreneur. Sure. Unless Unless influencing. And I think more so I'm just trying to connect the dots. Yeah,

Chris Spear: 46:05

I think that's becoming people will pick it up. It's become a dirty word. But that's what it you know, in a lot of respects is because nobody wants to be associated with that, because I think there's a connotation there. But what that is, is someone who has some kind of notoriety or an audience or is recognized as a specialist in a certain area, and then just kind of using that as leverage to help, you know, elevate a brand or a person or something. But

Unknown: 46:31

yeah, absolutely.

Chris Spear: 46:33

The term entrepreneur is so much more preferable there. As far as as far as Vietnamese food goes, are there any Michelin rated Vietnamese restaurants, at least in America like? And if not, like, could there be a three star Vietnamese restaurant?

Unknown: 46:50

I think I'm speculating on how Michelin works. I'm not exactly sure, right. But I'm speculating. If there were be a three star Michelin restaurant that would have been in these themed, I would imagine it would need to start in Vietnam first. To get the full round experience. It just makes sense in terms of like excessively of ingredients and full experience. Like, for example, I think a restaurant is dumped with three Michelin stars if it's a restaurant that attracts people from other countries to go to your country. And respectfully with thoughts, that sort of understanding about Michelin, my very limited understanding about Michelin, I think that'd be very not impossible, but very difficult to do in a place like the United States. It would just make more sense. You know, because three Michelin star restaurants, it's like, going into like, you're going on an adventure, French Laundry and Napa, you are going to the the culinary institution that defines the Yorkville, Napa region, period. Right. You're going to the pinnacle place that defined the Mediterranean, the astronomy wise in Spain, you know, and I would feel the same way for Vietnamese restaurant or Vietnamese institution, if you will. There were three Michelin star rated. I do know of I believe he's a bit grim on bigger mon I think his recommendation from Michelin, it will never qualify for one two or three star because of its price point.

Chris Spear: 48:20

I think I think they come like exceptional value or something like that is

Unknown: 48:23

exceptional. Now. There is a bigger Amman named Hi, Sue. I'm in Chicago, and I've heard nothing but amazing and high praises of that Vietnamese establishment.

Chris Spear: 48:35

And it gets not just even the level of Michelin but I haven't seen a lot of like formal dining Vietnamese restaurants, you know, I don't even usually eat them that often. I do take out like I think of takeout all the time, or it's a place I go with my family. But where are those white tablecloth? Vietnamese restaurants?

Unknown: 48:51

I think once again, I think it will come. I think I'll come later of it, obviously post pandemic. But I think if you notice all of the three Michelin star restaurants that exist around the world, we all exist in fairly strong economies that have a strong reflection of tourism. So like Japan, Hong Kong, Italy, France, Spain, United States, South America, and Mexico, their tourism is cracking up. So they've had their first three star I think like two or three years ago.

Chris Spear: 49:21

I mean, you look you look at places like poo Joel, I don't have poodles, a two or three star but you know, down to Mexico like their, you know, formal kind of fine dining, Mexican food and Mexican food isn't something that a lot of people especially in the US thought of as being fine dining A number of years ago, and then you know, Enrique Enrique comes over here and opens up a couple of restaurants in New York and then it kind of starts to grow when it's elevating Mexican cuisine and I wonder like, could Vietnamese food get there you know, you're seeing it with some upscale Indian restaurants and such and I still kind of see more like mom and pop very small Vietnamese type, restaurants.

Unknown: 49:57

Everything just something to address as well. I feel like Michelin is very patriarchal. And I think that comes with very, they come to some sort of like gender restrictions. And I think the truth of the matter is, I think if you look at the world, women chefs, the men period, period period consummate professional chefs, period, however, and this historic in the historical context as well, too, however, Michelin has a reputation of awarding the majority of chef's male chefs, Michelin stars and Michelin awards. I think there's a good and bad in Michelin, I think Michelin is a double edged sword. And, you know, if you get it now, you have to stress about maintaining it, right. I think the other context is that, with this new generation of kids call it was a Generation Z. Do they want to be chefs the same way we want to be chefs? I'm not sure that I don't I don't know. If I don't know if that's going to exist, you know, and I think Michelin star doing the hard pivot to street food. Because chefs like you and myself, that sort of training that we went through that sort of brigade system that we went through, I don't I don't know if that's going to exist anymore.

Chris Spear: 51:25

Yeah, I'm not interested in that food. I mean, there's great Michelin restaurants, of course, the French Laundry, amazing place. But like, when I go to a city now, like, I'm more interested, if I'm going to mention, like a one star or two star, like it's, it's got a cool vibe, like I'd rather go in a place where the food is banging. But like you maybe got some old school hip hop on the radio, and it just has more of a laid back vibe. And you can get a bunch of interesting stuff. I'm not interested in a 20 course $300 menu that takes four hours, like, I'm just not interested in that anymore.

Unknown: 51:55

And I think in terms of like, where the economy is going, I don't see those type of restaurants. Those sort of models thrive 2020 and post 2021. I mean, look at elbulli, like, they could have stayed on but they didn't. And he pivoted to a research institution, because you know why? Now he can do all his r&d he wants and he could sell his information, you know, opposed to worry about covers and seats and accolades and all that stuff.

Chris Spear: 52:27

Yeah. You know, most of those places, like you said, You travel for, you know, I think there's definitely already been a return to the neighborhood restaurant, like, what do you do if your restaurant is so dependent on people traveling, whether it be regionally or internationally to your restaurant, now, people aren't getting on planes, they're not traveling, you know, I'm not going to San Francisco to go to a restaurant anymore. I'm only going super locally. So if you're one of those restaurants, you have to figure a way to make it work for your local communities now. Um, so really quickly, like you're on top chef, how was that experience? Like? Would you do that? Again, if they wanted you to come back for like an all stars or do something? Was it an overall positive experience for you?

Unknown: 53:09

Absolutely. I think Top Chef changed my life. I think it helped grow my brand and help share my story across a lot of different mediums and anything like NBC Universal or Bravo, it goes International. So I think for that, I was just super happy to be on the show. If they would ask me to do the Shogun I would absolutely do it again. I think it was absolutely fun. They took care of us in a sense where all the staff members that kept us in a penthouse you know, the food was always thought that sponsored by Whole Foods. So like whatever we want, if we just say hey, I want I want a 40 or you know, some salami or whatever it is that they always get it for us. So I think in terms of the situation in terms of like our living conditions was amazing. In terms of like the competition in the environment, is for me, I don't cook like that it's really hard to wrap my head around to cook like that it takes a very specific skill. But after be going through it once I had an I have an understanding of how those things sort of work and in refocusing my energy and I just tell you this like there's a lot of stuffs in there that have a lot of mission training that fail in the touch of participants is completely different game you know you're making a dish like in 15 minutes. Like if I were to do that and find any restaurant or any of this ambitious data cook my chef would kick my ass

Chris Spear: 54:33

no no no with no help like what environment are you doing food like that literally by yourself. You're used to coming from your restaurants with like a whole team of people with you. Well,

Unknown: 54:43

I think the other thing is not just that but the I think the other thing to consider is that and this is this this is the oxymoron for me. Is that a 15 hour brace piece oxtail, versus when it when done in 10 minutes, which one sounds more Delicious to you, which one do you think is going to taste better?

Chris Spear: 55:02

I've never seen a 10 minute oxtail on a menu anywhere,

Unknown: 55:05

you know, right like, so. But it's not that it's not that it's not that it's impossible. It's just, you have to learn a bunch of these tips, secrets, and break all of these rules to figure out how to do it. You know what I mean? And just in my experiences, I had to break a lot of my own rules that I've established in my own kitchens and the ones that I've inherited from from my chefs or whatnot, to make it work. You know?

Chris Spear: 55:31

Yeah, I'm sure there's stuff that goes in the fryer that you would never fry on a normal basis. Like you see the fryer come out. So I got this isn't done. Throw it in there. Give it a give it another 30 seconds in the fryer.

Unknown: 55:40

Yeah. And I think if you watch the show, I had a lot of camaraderie with everyone. And I think, but that's just the way I am in the kitchen is that, you know, when somebody else goes down the hall, Paul, you know, and like you offer, I think in a competition like that, I was thinking like Rocky and Apollo is that I want to be chegar best. I don't want to I don't know, I don't want you to fail over a technicality. I think the the complexes of personalities and competitive this goes on, it comes out later in the show, you know,

Chris Spear: 56:11

it's always hard when like the time runs out and someone forgot to put something on there. It's like you're literally not going to let them pick that you know, piece of chicken off the cutting board and put it on the plate, you're going to make them serve the judges with no protein. Come on. That's gotta be hard.

Unknown: 56:23

But that's, but that's the thing about the show. That's that's what gets people glued to the TV set, you know, so I think it's all reason I just try to remind people that come on people. It's it's TV, it's drama TV.

Chris Spear: 56:36

Yeah, that's what keeps us keeps us on the edge of our seats. And they always know when to go right to commercial just

Unknown: 56:41

back. I think our season was the one way they started implementing slomo I thought it was the stupidest thing ever. But, you know,

Chris Spear: 56:49

was it hard watching yourself? Like, do you do you like that? Like, would you watch the shows? And how do you feel when you see yourself on TV?

Unknown: 56:56

You know, when it first aired, I watched it for a little bit, however, makes me feel weird watching myself. You know, it's kind of like, I feel like that's such like a Kanye West thing. Yeah, like Kanye West will make a music album. And he would sit in his car and listen to it really loud and bobbing his head. You know, it's like, that's my album. My album is great. I don't have that type of personality. Well watch myself and be like, yeah,

Chris Spear: 57:27

it was even weird having the podcast because the amount of times I listen to a show because I do all my own editing. It's like, I have to listen to it. You're like, do I really sound like that? Do I really say that stuff all the time. And then I hit Publish. And like the morning it comes out when I go for my morning walk or run? I'm listening to it to see how it actually sounds on the internet, like everyone else. And you're like, this is weird. Like, I don't know, I've listened so many times. I want to listen to this this episode for another hour again. And do I really sound like that? You know, it's funny. It's a weird thing. And I'm still not quite used to that yet.

Unknown: 57:59

I do the same thing because I edit my cooking classes. And I upload them upload them so people could stream it. Um, but yeah, it's like, there's I'm pretty sure you do this with audio, too. But there's a part we have to cut out. You're listening to the same sentence that you said or same phrase you said like 20 times? Like, this is Oh, this is? Uh,

Chris Spear: 58:18

yeah, no, no, definitely you do. And sometimes you have to have a conversation. Like, I have to say something to get you to tell a story. But then I have to edit out what I said to get you there, you know, so the flow is a little better. So sometimes there's like a leading question. And then you get really deep and it's like, and then I'll just, you know, it's really hard to interview people on the fly, like, my response will come off kind of nonchalant, like, you'll talk about this very deep thing about, you know, your parents and, and whatever. And I'll say, yeah, and then I'll transition to the next question. Almost like I'm blowing it off. And then you listen, it's like, wow, that sounded really shallow. Like he just shared this really deep story about something. And I'm like, yeah, so anyway, tell me about your fall recipe. So you have to kind of think about how that sounds when you put it together. Because again, like, I'm having fun with this, but I never set out to be like a podcaster, or media company, like, I'm just learning on the fly and making it up as I go.

Unknown: 59:10

I think I think you'd be deemed for me as a person who helps tell stories. You know, and I think the work that you're doing is, you are a journalist of the 2000s. All stories. I think all stories are pointing to here. And you're helping sharing that like this is the new format of what Twitter was in early 2000s. And whether whether you were accredited journalists or not on Twitter, if you were sharing World News, things that people wanted to say and talk about when they didn't have a platform to say like, I think that is the impact that you can have. Just saying.

Chris Spear: 59:47

Well, thanks so much for coming on the show. And to all our listeners. As always, this has been the chef's without restaurants podcast, you can find us at chef so that restaurants comm.org, and on all social media platforms. Thanks so much. Have a great week.