BITCOIN WITH DORSEY, MALLERS, GILLIAM, KEIDUN, AND ODELL

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Transcription provided by Podhome.fm
Created: 9/3/2024 3:48:33 PM
Duration: 4983.708
Channels: 1

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Please welcome us on stage

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Odell, Max Kaye, Grand Gilliam,

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Jack Dorsey,

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and

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Jack Mullers?

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Correct. Correct. Thank you, sir.

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I actually don't know where

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Mallers is.

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Thank you, Miles.

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And also,

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big Jack. Jack Dorsey

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is having a conversation real quick and he's gonna come back out here and moderate this panel. But until then,

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I'll be the moderator.

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First off, foremost, I want to, thank you all for coming to this event.

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And I wanna thank Max and Anna and the rest of the Honey Badger crew.

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This event particularly is incredibly special to me.

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2019

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Riga was the first time I

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ever spoke on stage. I'm pretty sure,

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which is crazy. That was only 5 years ago. It feels like a decade. Can we get a huge round of applause for Jack Mallers?

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And, yeah, it just means a lot. It's it's kinda crazy how far we've come. And, you guys have been a huge part of it. So thank you. Thank you very much. Thank you for coming. I still remember you in 2019 drunk in Old Town. So that's one of the fond memories.

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Fake news. Fake news.

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So I'm joined here,

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with Max, obviously. We have Grant, who's my fellow partner at 10:31.

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And we have Jack here, who's,

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founder and CEO of Strike. And then sitting next to him is Jack Dorsey,

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cofounder of Twitter

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and Square, now Block.

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So, guys, I mean, I think we can talk about whatever the hell we want to talk about.

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Bitcoin only. I mean, I I wanna I kinda wanna talk about building Bitcoin businesses.

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I think,

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you know, Grant had an earlier,

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an earlier presentation talking about

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how

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moving to a Bitcoin standard changes

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the calculation when you are building businesses. You know, running a business is an incredibly hard thing to do to begin with.

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Running a a business under a Bitcoin standard

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might be even more difficult.

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And all you guys are doing it,

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and you're building businesses, and some of you are doing it at a scale that is is quite extraordinary.

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So with that said,

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since Jack just stepped up on stage, why don't we start with Jack?

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How do you think about that building out Strike and,

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you know, expanding it around the world under a Bitcoin standard or a looming Bitcoin standard?

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Is my mic on? Yeah.

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What's going on? How are you guys?

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Building a Bitcoin business. I don't know if you guys caught Grant's keynote earlier. It was phenomenal.

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It was around a simple point that's lost on the world today of a a business should be profitable.

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It's a really core tenet of how we've built Strike.

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We think of profitability

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more than just a

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financial obligation. We think of it as a moral obligation. We wanna be net producers to society.

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We think that, you know, if you're producing more value for the world than you're consuming from the world, then you're making the world a better place. Another way of saying that financially is being a profitable business. So that's always been a core focus and tenant for us. So building something that has extremely low cost, extremely high margins, extremely high scale from, like, a a pure business standpoint

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is huge. And, again, we think of it as 1st moral because we're

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quite literally to the definition making the world a better place is if what we're producing is being valued more by our customers than we need to consume to produce it. And then, of course, we get to stack a lot of Sats with cash flows, and we think it's building in a massive capital base with us. So I think that's, like, the core tenant of where to start,

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build a culture around that. Not everyone wants to sign up for that. Not everyone agrees with that worldview, but we do at Stripe. And then from there, there's all sorts of

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really amazing things that flourish from Bitcoin as the heart and the pulse and the nucleus of a company,

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which I can talk about, but I guess I'll stop there. I don't know if that was, what you wanted me to say. I mean, I just I want you to speak your mind. I'm not I'm not expecting you to say anything. I'm I I do that often. Yeah. That was what was on my mind. It is it is kinda crazy that

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there's, like, 1,000,000,000,000 of dollars of assets under management and the just the basic concept of just run a profitable business

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is,

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really hard for people to grok. And Bitcoiners are are built different in a lot of ways. I think Bitcoiners

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it's if if you've been in the space for long enough,

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your lifestyle itself

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is very lean. You know, we have, you know, Pierre Pierre Richard

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has famously said,

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if you own chairs,

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you're short Bitcoin. Right?

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And

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that's pretty crazy and that, yes, it is a meme, but every meme is based in reality. Right? And and it's this idea of trying to, you know, really, really keep your whole lifestyle as lean as possible, as productive as possible, and as profitable as possible. Yeah. I mean,

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I'm gonna

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I'm gonna take this way over the top now. Nice. So yeah. Yeah. Here we go.

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Just bear with me for a second.

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I like the analogy. I've said it many times before

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of, death to life,

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Bitcoin to money.

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This is aggressive and emotional, but what I mean by that is, you know, the only way I can value my life, which is a proxy for the time that I'm allowed on the planet,

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is because I know for certainty I will die.

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Right? I I wouldn't be thinking about reproducing or getting married or I'd go to the gym in 10000 fucking years. Who would care if I could live forever? But it's the promise that my time is finite is the reason I can value it. And the reason my life is value valuable and I wanna catch sunsets, and I wanna reproduce, and I wanna be healthy, and I'm not gonna eat the doughnut, I'm gonna eat a rib eye, is for that very simple reason.

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Monetary energy

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has been infinite. Right? How many dollars can exist? As many as they want. And so it's been impossible to value

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money ever.

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Bitcoin is that finite promise in the same way that death allows us to value our lives, which is very, very important. Right? Like the Steve Jobs quote, like,

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death is the change agent for life. It's very valuable to our our species. Bitcoin gives that not only to all of us as individuals, but to companies. All of a sudden, when you have a cost of capital, a way to value something, you see businesses in the fiat world where they just take excess cash, excess VC funding, and they pour it into growth. It's impossible to understand what to value, new products, new employees, new marketing. And it doesn't who knows if it's working or not? It could produce no it could produce no net profits, and they're gonna get 10 x the valuation. It doesn't make any sense. And so for a business at our core, we operate on Bitcoin, meaning that we understand the true value of capital of money. So internally at the company, we think over the last 10 years, Bitcoin has produced 63%

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annualized returns on average over the last decade.

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So we think at the business, if we can't build anything that can produce at least 63.1%

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returns on a year over year basis, it's not worth our time and our energy,

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which is phenomenal. Right? So, you know, if someone gave me a $1,000,000,000

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to help build Stripe some more, there's a very good chance I wouldn't hire one more fucking person. I might just buy a $1,000,000,000 worth of Bitcoin. And that's a huge that's that finite promise of death,

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right, which allows us to value capital and decisions. So we only build things people value. We only build things that people care about. We keep our team lean, we keep our costs low, and we just focus on being net producers for society. But I like that analogy of death to life, Bitcoin to money because now we have something to measure against that makes it all worth it. Before, you're kind of just

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swimming in no man's land. Right? And I I think you see that, stock markets, equities, venture capital, it's a mess. So

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really, really core. I mean, without Bitcoin,

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obviously, Stripe would be nothing, but even, like, our identity,

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and how we make decisions, that that capital measurement is is how we do everything every day.

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Yeah. I don't wanna follow that straight fire. You're welcome to.

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I don't know how you follow that.

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We could talk about how great my keynote was again. It was great. But Yeah. No. The point I was trying to make during it was

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that all you really need to do sort of, like, come back to the the financial side of it is generate

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net positive Sats flows,

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and you are better off. We're used to this world where you have to

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outpace inflation

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to grow. If you're not keeping up with inflation inflation, then you're falling behind.

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And everyone's really worried about how do you generate incremental yield on your Bitcoin,

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but really all you need is just net positive sats flow. And so I think another way of saying it is sats flow is the real yield on Bitcoin.

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I'm hearing deep thoughts from Jack

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saying it's about morality

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and life. And so maybe sats flow is the real yield is wrong. Maybe it's morality is the real yield on Bitcoin

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or life is the real yield on Bitcoin.

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No. Like,

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energy is the base layer of money.

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Right? Like, money is our time and energy in an abstracted form. So the problem with society, like, you know, fix the money, fix the world, what's the opposite of that? Break the money, break society?

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Something along those lines. Right? So if energy

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is the base layer of of money,

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then if the money's bad and we can't value our energy, then everything gets all fucked up. And if you wanna talk about it on the topic of a company,

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then, yeah, how many people do you need to hire? How much money should you be spending on marketing? How many products do you need? How many countries should you be in? It's impossible to value that in the same way that if I'm gonna live forever,

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should I go to the gym today?

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It's an impossible question to answer.

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Right? Because you have nothing to measure against. So that's the whole point is if, like, energy is the base layer of money as a concept,

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and and and now we can measure it, then, like, everything changes. That's all I was trying to say. You make make real decisions, produce real value.

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Yeah. No. You you both make a lot of sense.

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Good. I mean, Max, you've been building out Huddl Huddl and now Debutify,

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for years.

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How do you think about it? Do you have

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Pretty much complicated.

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Can we get a huge round of applause for for Jack Dorsey?

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Jack, thank you for joining us. Thanks for showing up late. It means a lot.

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Nobody told me this was starting. So I I let us off, but you're supposed to be the moderator of this panel. So feel free to just start it. No. Go ahead.

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You want me to continue? I can do that for you. I don't know what you're saying. I have no context whatsoever.

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It. So, Max, what what are your thoughts here?

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Building,

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companies on Bitcoin is complicated because everyone thinks that, well, I'd rather buy some Bitcoin and outperform any company out there. And, like, I think Grant can align to that because,

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like,

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Bitcoin is, like, super performing asset.

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And, it's way more simpler. You know, just buy Bitcoin,

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maybe borrow against that, buy more. This is what Saylor is doing.

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But, then again,

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some companies are pretty much successful. And if they're not being built, then there's no added value. And the price of Bitcoin is just just not gonna go up up if it's that important for some people.

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And,

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yeah. And we've been doing this on top of multisig, which is way more complicated than doing something else in a non custodial way, peer to peer, and that's, I think, one of the toughest market

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inside of the Bitcoin to build on. Specifically for HODL. HODL is also allows to do an

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anonymity,

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and,

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that's kind of goes with regulation,

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and there's a certain pressure on that side. So

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keeping up with all the core values of Bitcoin is really hard, but it pays off in the end.

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Do you have any advice for people in this room that might be thinking about Don't do that.

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Fair enough. I mean, build,

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build business on top of Bitcoin if you're crazy enough.

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My first advice is just, you know, buy Bitcoin, learn about it,

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support businesses that are already there. If you wanna build a proper business on top of Bitcoin, think twice.

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Yeah. I mean, running businesses is incredibly difficult. Know what you're asking. Business on top of a Bitcoin is, like, 10 times more difficult. Exactly.

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Especially yes. I I mean,

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it's it's rough out there, but people keep slinging it. Jack, I mean, you are,

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a shareholder of X, and you've also built one of, the largest Bitcoin businesses in the world.

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What is

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how how do you think about how do you think about

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this this transition of Square, now Block,

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getting more and more involved with Bitcoin?

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I mean, from my view, it's been very deliberate,

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and it's been really impressive to watch you during that kind of transitionary period. How do you think about that? Thank you. I think that's one of the few compliments you've ever given me.

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How do I think about it? I'm I'm very proud of it. I I,

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as, as Max said, like, it's it's

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I don't I don't think, there can be a true Bitcoin company

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in the context of

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the of the governments that that we that we build in, and I think that's going to be increasingly true as as time goes on. So I think we can be at best Bitcoin adjacent,

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and I think we can at best,

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you know, build businesses on top of this on top of this protocol and do whatever it takes to

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to help address,

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issues that we see, which are number 1, like, for us, it's accessibility

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to Bitcoin, making it just super easy to get in in whatever use case that that makes sense.

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Number 2 is to make it more secure.

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And for us, that manifest is mining better mining hardware,

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that's made in the US. That's open source. Bit key, self custodial wallets.

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Just more options around securing and and ideally in the future, more privacy

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options as well.

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And then 3 is making it more usable every day, and that's where we get into the the currency part. And I think,

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Jack has done an incredible job here in leading that, and there's a bunch of, other at scale

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implementations of what it feels like to to pay with Bitcoin.

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Zaps on Nasr being the biggest at scale implementation. If you haven't how how many people have Zapped on Nasr in this audience?

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Yeah. This is why this is why I love the small

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Bitcoin conferences because they're actually focused on

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living up to the to the messaging and the and the principles, and and it's it's about the action.

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But I I think it's going to become increasingly hard to to run a Bitcoin business because I don't think it really can

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exist.

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I I think we have to be somewhat adjacent, and

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there'll be things that are principally

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in Bitcoin that we all love and that we all fight for that we can't do as a company.

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And that's a really unfortunate

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intersection.

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We can continue to push for it and lobby for it and and do all these things, but the reality is those walls feel like they're closing more and more.

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And we're seeing

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actions

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of what it means to have a a choke point

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on a service such as what what happened with Pavel and Telegram.

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When you have a CEO, the CEO can be called in front of congress, can be arrested, can be assassinated.

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One of the greatest gifts Satoshi gave us is we don't know who this person is, and,

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they disappeared.

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And even if they came back, it wouldn't matter much.

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You can't do that in a in a corporate context as far as I know. But you can,

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evolve your company to be more focused on open source, to contribute more to free open source software,

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to doing more of your work in public transparently,

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and to contribute to open protocols such as Bitcoin and Aster,

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that you may not benefit from directly as a company.

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But if other people benefit,

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you eventually will if you're building products on those protocols. And I I think that's a

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a reasonable compromise to

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being a Bitcoin company as as we'd want it to to be known.

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Clap for Matt.

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You want me to take over moderation?

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You you promise you're gonna Jack, what are your thoughts on this?

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On being a Bitcoin company? I I answered before you showed up. I can answer again if you want. Oh, sorry. It's okay. Grand answer is fine. You.

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I I mean, with the way we think about it at strike as being like of the Bitcoin company a Bitcoin company,

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it's

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so I won't I I gave an analogy about death and stuff. It was intense.

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I want to yeah. Talk about it later.

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I think, like, a a core principle for Strike is I don't think that there are many companies focused on Bitcoin, and I think Bitcoin is the opportunity.

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Like, when we were conceptualizing

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the business, we're like, okay.

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Coinbase and Binance, those are crypto exchanges. BlackRock is an asset manager.

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Fidelity is a brokerage service. Like, Bitcoin seems to be the opportunity. If you look at Coinbase's

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quarterly filings,

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half of its volume is Bitcoin. So you can make the argument that at least half the business is Bitcoin, but if you were to take Bitcoin out of Coinbase, the whole thing probably falls apart, yet they can't focus on it if their life fucking depended on it. And so at Stripe, when we say, like, we're a Bitcoin company,

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I agree with Jack.

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We're a centralized

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regulated, highly regulated audited organization. We don't pretend that we're not. Right? Like, sometimes people download Strike and they're like, you're KYC ing me, man. It's like, yeah. There's, like, government guns to my head. I don't I'm not shy about that. But when I say we're a Bitcoin company,

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I'm long Bitcoin short crypto

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through

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strike. Right? Like, I think Brian and not to overly pick on Brian, but I think focus on crypto versus focus on Bitcoin compounds.

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And I I don't know if that is what you meant in, like, being a Bitcoin company, but I mean, I just completely disagree with Jack,

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but it's a semantics argument. Which one? Chuck. I said, why'd you guys have to sit next to each other?

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You said

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I agree I agree with Mallers. Okay.

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I I think every business

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is going to be a Bitcoin business, and I think every person is going to be a Bitcoiner.

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But I do respect

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this concept that if you're if you're building true FreedomTech under, like, the ethos

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of Bitcoin and very aligned with the ethos of Bitcoin, it's incredibly difficult to do that with a centralized structure in place and having a CEO in place. Now I will say, you know, Huddl, Huddl, and Debify are actually this very interesting example here

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of while they do have a centralized structure in terms of leadership,

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they don't take custody of funds,

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right, which is a

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just a paradigm shift in how you could run a financial services business. Like, that was never even possible before Bitcoin existed.

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So I would take it back to you,

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Dorsey.

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It feels weird calling you Dorsey. I'm gonna call you Jack, and I'm gonna call you Mallers. Does that work? Just stay. No. Don't take it the same way.

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What what do you think about that? Like, is there something there in terms of if you're running a business, Like, the self custody aspect really changes a lot of things. Yeah. Yeah. I I I think there's a I think there's a different a a number of different creative approaches

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to this work. I think it's,

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I I think it,

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probably much

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not not

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to diminish the effort, but

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in in our context, it's probably much harder to do things like that with the fact that we have all these other businesses that are that are highly regulated.

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And

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I the things I would want to do, I'd probably want to start as a separate startup

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because it would be far easier and we could take

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far more far more risk.

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But given the the scale that we're at, not just with Bitcoin. It may have nothing to do with Bitcoin. It has everything to do with the rest of our business and competitive dynamics.

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And just look at just look at New York

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as example

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and operating

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Bitcoin products within New York

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as an example.

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It is nearly impossible.

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It's a state that

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is full of all the bankers,

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and,

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that

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makes it very difficult to even ship something like Bitkey

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within that state,

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such that

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most Bitcoin companies that get to scale won't even try New York

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and

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or exit from it.

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And New York is talking to other states to to follow. And these these regulations are gonna become more and more

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fragmented,

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and companies like ours will have to go state by state by state by state.

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And the amount of work to differentiate your product by state

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by state level is just immense. I mean, it it compounds into something that,

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it just doesn't make sense to launch some things in that case. Now that's not true of every product, of course, and and, again, there's ways around it and the the bit license

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and everything that they're considering with with Lightning, but that that's gonna be

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to me, in in my view, we're gonna see more of that, not less of it.

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I think,

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what do you think about

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every company

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eventually

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does something with Bitcoin? I made a comment.

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So I think,

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the S and P 500

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or, like, US capital markets, the stock market, is generally a pretty good proxy

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to understand what's going on in the world because it's what had to have been monetized after we left the gold standard. Right? It's, like,

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wealth and capital had to go somewhere. It's all sitting in the US capital markets primarily. And so if you see the performance of, like, the highest market caps primarily in the United States on New York Stock Exchange and such, you can kinda see directionally

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how the world has evolved and where value is being created and what industries are being disrupted. If you look at the top of the stock market over the last decade, it's a lot of big tech. Right? Like Microsoft and Facebook and there's Amazon in there, like, a lot of Internet born companies.

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And I made a comment, I think it was a few years ago, that I think in 10 years from now, the biggest companies in the world will be Bitcoin companies. And I feel pretty confident about that still. Like, I think MicroStrategy

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but what what I meant by that is that, you know,

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you need Bitcoin more than Bitcoin ever needs you. Like, Donald Trump needs Bitcoin more than Bitcoin needs Donald Trump. Like, I personally need Bitcoin a lot more than Bitcoin will ever need me, like a 100%. And I think that goes for every individual, every corporation, every government, and eventually, Bitcoin kind of manifests itself and realizes itself playing a role in your life in some form of fashion. And I do think 10 years from now when you look at the S and P 500 or, you know, the top businesses in the world,

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there will be, like, a core Bitcoin tenant similar to how you see tech and Internet evolving today. And and and so but maybe we're now arguing over the semantics of what a Bitcoin company means. Well, I

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I think that every company will have to use Bitcoin Mhmm. Because it will be that currency of the Internet, and you will have to participate. And it'll be smart for them to hold Bitcoin just like it's smart for any individual to.

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But I would hate for the fact I would hate a a reality where

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the majority of our interface to Bitcoin is through companies

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because it by definition, it will be restricted. It'll go against the philosophies and the principles of Bitcoin in many ways, and it's hard to craft an implementation that enables that. So,

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like, I I think the the the best we can do as Bitcoin companies is also make sure that we're contributing to Mhmm. Open source projects that can actually have the principles and carry carry forth the the principles of

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of,

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what we love about what we love about Bitcoin. So I don't disagree I don't disagree with you, but I just I don't I don't want a bunch of companies to own all the Bitcoin, and I don't want a bunch of companies to be the only interface

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to the Bitcoin. Well, you know what's funny is,

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I think nobody does. I don't think you can because you would kill you'd kill the project. That's part of the game theory

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is,

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you know, if we all wanted concentrated

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coins and concentrated access, then Bitcoin itself would die. So that's part of that, like, open network, economies of scale, network effects, like, cyclical loop that you get is that at Strike, if we're doing well, one of the best things we can do is support Bitcoin doing better, not necessarily ourselves. And if Bitcoin does better and Bitcoin's healthier and Bitcoin's distributed and people can still take self custody of their coins, then our business will compound on top of that. But it's that's a very, very unique I mean, like, that level of game theoretical genius from Satoshi. Like, it's hard to imagine that he, or she or they had the foresight for that. But I don't I agree with you, but I don't think anyone could disagree with you. I think we all agree. I think everyone in this room agrees.

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Attaboy. We all agree.

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Right? I think we all agree. Man. Yeah, I mean, you're so should back to my moderator role. You're you're, you're building a mainstream media conglomerate.

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You are

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running

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a nonprofit Rich coming from you. Gone? You're running you're running a non nonprofit,

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to grant developers in this ecosystem and and also Nostra.

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What, like, what have you seen work and and not work just from a very high level point of view?

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And how do you how do you how do you rectify the schism between the the corporate incentives and the needs and the and what open source can can bring? Yeah. I mean, I think at the core the core of the value prop of Bitcoin, right, is is that you're able to spend and save without permission. And the second it becomes permissioned,

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that value prop gets eroded. And I think that's what,

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Jack was talking about when he was talking about this this game theory incentive that it's not in anyone's best interest to capture Bitcoin fully.

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And it's a little bit

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hard to objectively quantify what does it mean to capture Bitcoin fully. So as a result, it's important that as many of us lead by example as possible

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to push the tide as much towards

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open source development to FreedomTech development.

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And what does that look like in practice? What that looks like in practice is

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is

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better education, encouraging more people to get into development in the first place, making sure that they are they are competent and supported,

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supported both financially, but also through mentorships and education and whatnot.

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I would say

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that if you look back, like, 4 years ago,

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when we were just getting started with OpenSats, we're just getting started with Open Sats. The the open source funding landscape was a lot different. I don't think Spiral was launched yet.

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HRF Dev Fund wasn't launched yet, and obviously, Open Sats wasn't launched yet.

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The

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that

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it has been incredibly optimistic

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and

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and impressive to see that trend going up.

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I mean, at OpenSAT specifically, we're funding almost 200 open source contributors in 40 plus countries around the world.

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They get paid out in Bitcoin monthly.

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Our entire treasury is held in Bitcoin Multisig. Obviously, we are a centralized organization, but we're a nonprofit.

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But

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we are able to use Bitcoin in a way

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that allows us to achieve a scale,

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achieve an efficiency, achieve a transparency

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that was never before possible.

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So that it's it's incredibly powerful to to to watch this all play out, but I would caution people

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that because it's

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basically impossible to objectively

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value what does Bitcoin being fully captured or to captured means. We need to constantly be on the offensive on that front, and there does feel like there's a little bit of complacency.

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Right now, a lot of our most prolific developers are incredibly burnt out.

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They finally have

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substantial financial resources,

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but those are still very limited compared to the private market opportunities that they have.

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They have a community that is very divided, which is a good thing in Bitcoin a lot of the times. It's it's it's important that we don't all agree about everything,

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but it can be very difficult to watch

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when, you know, you're working like a thankless job and and people on Twitter are just, you know, cheering number go up.

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So the the burnout's a real issue with our with our more established developers or more experienced open source contributors,

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and the I like to call it the replacement rate. It's like,

355
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it's like the birth rate of new developers compared to, like, the death rate of of existing developers. There's a discrepancy there. We're there were not we're not

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net new adding,

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the higher level contributors because, I mean, that's a hard thing to do. Like, people with actually years of experience,

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that are more

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yeah. That that that that are that are I I don't wanna say qualified, but that are more comfortable with working on these kind of systems. These systems are some of the most difficult things to work with in the world. I mean, if you talk to someone that works on privacy software,

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they have almost no metrics on how their software is being used because they don't track their users.

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And they ship it and it's running live. That that code is just running in production. And if Bitcoin is gonna be

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the

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the this base of a global distributed financial network, like, the stakes are incredibly, incredibly high. So they're under a ton of pressure.

364
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It's it's very difficult work. It's it's

365
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often very thankless,

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and we just have to do our best as as a community, as an ecosystem, as an industry,

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to support them as much as possible.

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We,

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we talked a little bit about the funding topic,

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earlier on a panel. And I think to Matt's point,

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this industry has never been as flush with cash,

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not just on the not for profit side, but also on the for profit side. There's lots more investors that are pursuing,

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capital endeavors in the space.

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And I think it probably is also true that

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despite this

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massive influx, like, relatively speaking, it's still small relative to everything that's going into the broader crypto space.

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But relatively speaking,

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we've had a big influx in capital,

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but I don't think you're seeing

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developer increase to the same level of extent,

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company formation

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from an investment side that is investable

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in in large dollars.

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So that's, I mean, that's an interesting dichotomy, I think.

385
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Why why do you think that is a like, why isn't a 16 looking at at this ecosystem?

386
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Well,

387
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the obvious answer is that,

388
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when you pursue the crypto oriented investments,

389
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we've had this period over the last several years when you,

390
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can pursue

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much more near term liquidity

392
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through tokens. I mean, that's the obvious answer.

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I mean, you asked Matt what is what has he seen work,

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in his endeavors.

395
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The way I would answer it from a 10 30 one perspective is

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just pursuing

397
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alignment with Bitcoin,

398
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caring about Bitcoin,

399
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being Bitcoiners. I think there's people at these larger funds that

400
00:32:50.725 --> 00:32:53.225
understood really early on that Bitcoin was,

401
00:32:53.845 --> 00:32:55.544
a very significant innovation

402
00:32:56.485 --> 00:32:56.985
and

403
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gave it some mind space a long time ago.

404
00:33:01.365 --> 00:33:03.065
But I think they've moved on, and

405
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they don't

406
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they don't consider themselves Bitcoiners, look at the space, or care about the space in the same way. And so I think that's how

407
00:33:14.240 --> 00:33:14.740
10/31

408
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has found product market fit, at least with the people who are building in the space, is that

409
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we live and breathe Bitcoin.

410
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We come, we participate, we contribute,

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and we are just authentically Bitcoin. And I don't think you can say the same thing about the other funds. You're actually one of the few VCs.

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Like, I'm not trying to make you happy, but,

413
00:33:38.640 --> 00:34:01.915
you're one of the few VCs that actually say that they invest in Bitcoin companies and they invest a lot of VCs just ride on the Bitcoin and they're like, yeah, we're Bitcoin pro only, but they invest in a lot of shit coins and tokens and crypto and etcetera, etcetera. So there's like, from my experience in the space, there's like 4, 3 VC funds in Bitcoin space that are actually Bitcoin VCs,

414
00:34:02.295 --> 00:34:13.470
and all others just say that they're Bitcoin VCs, but they do prefer or they do invest in other projects as well. Yeah. I mean, I think there's 2 sides to this. Right? There's the first side that a 16 z,

415
00:34:14.410 --> 00:34:15.710
and these other large,

416
00:34:16.410 --> 00:34:16.910
allocators,

417
00:34:18.410 --> 00:34:20.590
really love dumping shitcoins on retail.

418
00:34:21.775 --> 00:34:25.235
They get that instant liquidity. They never had it before. Like, historically,

419
00:34:25.695 --> 00:34:30.435
the VC game was a a game that you had to play on a longer term scale,

420
00:34:30.895 --> 00:34:37.349
that you had illiquidity in your investments. You weren't able to exit them until, hopefully, they went public or there was an acquisition.

421
00:34:39.010 --> 00:34:47.750
Obvious obviously, they very rarely believed in building profitable businesses, so the the idea of a dividend bank paying company is completely foreign to them.

422
00:34:48.975 --> 00:35:01.315
And so they've kind of ignored Bitcoin up until this point. Now I think that won't continue to be the case, and there are certain times where they do poke their heads into the space. But the smart Bitcoin founders usually do not want to participate with them.

423
00:35:01.620 --> 00:35:06.040
And the ones that do choose to participate with them usually get pressured into adding shitcoins,

424
00:35:06.580 --> 00:35:22.335
so then they're no longer a Bitcoin only business. So the end result is you very rarely have a a Bitcoin only business that's aligned with the Bitcoin ethos and and the values and supporting open source development and trying to push forward self custody and these other freedom oriented

425
00:35:22.875 --> 00:35:23.935
aspects of Bitcoin,

426
00:35:24.555 --> 00:35:28.815
that have them on the cap table because it's just diametrically opposed.

427
00:35:29.755 --> 00:35:30.875
It's crazy to me that,

428
00:35:32.450 --> 00:35:37.829
these people who portray themselves as, like, the founders of the Internet and incredible technologists

429
00:35:38.529 --> 00:35:39.670
don't see the merits

430
00:35:40.049 --> 00:35:40.950
of the technology

431
00:35:41.410 --> 00:35:42.150
in Bitcoin.

432
00:35:43.970 --> 00:35:44.470
Like,

433
00:35:45.474 --> 00:35:49.494
everyone we just talked about, but there's so many other technologists we can point to

434
00:35:49.875 --> 00:35:57.015
that have either written Bitcoin off or onto the new hype cycle, which currently right now is is AI and LLMs.

435
00:35:58.675 --> 00:36:03.070
What about the merits of Bitcoin is not attractive to these folks?

436
00:36:03.370 --> 00:36:11.630
Right. What are they what are they not seeing? Why are they choosing to be blind to it? By the way, I think you're the best moderator in Bitcoin, so thank you for stepping up to the plate.

437
00:36:12.890 --> 00:36:13.390
The,

438
00:36:15.125 --> 00:36:18.025
you know, I I think it could be even more malicious than that.

439
00:36:18.484 --> 00:36:22.825
I think they understand the value prop of Bitcoin. They understand that it's fundamentally,

440
00:36:24.484 --> 00:36:26.744
a complete game changer that it could be

441
00:36:27.380 --> 00:36:30.920
it could very likely be the standard currency of the world.

442
00:36:32.100 --> 00:36:38.020
And they probably own Bitcoin themselves personally, but you have to follow incentives. Right? And they have very

443
00:36:38.740 --> 00:36:44.065
they're they're they're thinking on short time frames. They're not thinking long term. They're not thinking,

444
00:36:45.105 --> 00:36:46.965
on this idea of of

445
00:36:47.985 --> 00:36:55.365
of it I mean, of integrity. They're not thinking integrity first. They're thinking profits first. And if they follow these hype hype cycles,

446
00:36:55.670 --> 00:36:57.930
if they go into these buzzword bullshits,

447
00:36:58.390 --> 00:37:14.945
they're able to raise way more money. They're able to collect fees on it. Ideally, they convince the founder to launch a token. Like, they all in their contracts all have these cutouts that if, like, you don't have a token, but you have a token in the future, we get our pro router share of the token, and then they start trying to pressure you into having the token.

448
00:37:15.484 --> 00:37:28.140
And they make way more money in the short term off of it. And I think you go if you go a decade in the future, if you go 2 decades in the future and you're actually thinking in a low time preference way, in a long term thinking way, the people that don't do that,

449
00:37:28.599 --> 00:37:33.660
will actually be able to look their children and their grandchildren in the face and be like, we actually

450
00:37:34.279 --> 00:37:38.299
did the right thing and and and look how well that worked out for us

451
00:37:38.599 --> 00:37:39.099
and

452
00:37:39.414 --> 00:37:43.275
you should follow that example and and, you know, be a productive human being.

453
00:37:43.894 --> 00:37:48.555
I agree with that. I I think it comes down to a simple answer, though. I I I think they can't control the outcome.

454
00:37:49.255 --> 00:37:53.674
Yeah. I think they can own the outcome. Like, they recognize that Bitcoin is unownable,

455
00:37:54.130 --> 00:37:54.630
ultimately.

456
00:37:54.930 --> 00:37:55.330
I was

457
00:37:55.970 --> 00:38:02.230
my answer is I think what you're same thing is I think it's very obvious they see opportunity and control

458
00:38:03.170 --> 00:38:09.030
and is why I think I think that that's where they see the opportunity. And I think there's an argument to be made that, unfortunately,

459
00:38:09.330 --> 00:38:09.830
like,

460
00:38:10.265 --> 00:38:11.005
the Internet,

461
00:38:12.665 --> 00:38:13.325
you know,

462
00:38:14.185 --> 00:38:21.405
the Internet had some unfortunate chapters where a lot of the opportunity on top of the web was, like, really controlling, like, Zuckerberg.

463
00:38:22.119 --> 00:38:27.339
And so I think it's very obvious someone like Marc Andreessen thinks that the opportunity in this space

464
00:38:27.640 --> 00:38:28.380
is where

465
00:38:29.000 --> 00:38:32.940
there can be control, yeah, and that there's a tremendous amount of vulnerability

466
00:38:33.800 --> 00:38:40.005
for him and others from Big Tech to let go of the project and invest in its fundamentals

467
00:38:40.385 --> 00:38:42.485
and to assume that free market value

468
00:38:42.865 --> 00:38:47.605
will seek itself back to them because they can find a way to create it without control.

469
00:38:48.240 --> 00:38:51.540
That's what I think. It's pretty obvious to me, and I think that

470
00:38:52.000 --> 00:38:52.740
these guys,

471
00:38:53.280 --> 00:38:56.660
Coinbase included, have raced to the local valley top

472
00:38:57.360 --> 00:38:58.740
and have totally missed

473
00:38:59.200 --> 00:39:01.220
that there's a mountaintop in the skyline.

474
00:39:01.965 --> 00:39:03.745
And, you know, when founding Strike,

475
00:39:04.125 --> 00:39:09.665
that's what we're like, we're gonna skip the local hilltop that everyone seems to be celebrating on

476
00:39:10.045 --> 00:39:12.465
and just march towards hiking the mountain.

477
00:39:12.925 --> 00:39:13.425
And

478
00:39:13.805 --> 00:39:19.010
I think that that's it. And and and on the local, Valley Top is

479
00:39:19.390 --> 00:39:20.849
where you can control.

480
00:39:21.230 --> 00:39:22.289
Like, I think their

481
00:39:22.829 --> 00:39:23.890
interest in Ethereum

482
00:39:24.349 --> 00:39:25.329
comes down to

483
00:39:25.710 --> 00:39:26.925
influence and control.

484
00:39:27.245 --> 00:39:33.345
Their ability to you know, we talk about finding liquidity, but, like, at the end of the day, again, it's like controlling your

485
00:39:33.725 --> 00:39:34.385
own destiny,

486
00:39:34.845 --> 00:39:35.745
having influence.

487
00:39:36.045 --> 00:39:44.450
I mean, liquidity at that that early of a venture investment is a bailout effectively. It's the same thing as a central bank bailout in my opinion.

488
00:39:44.910 --> 00:39:46.610
So, yeah, I think it comes down to control.

489
00:39:46.990 --> 00:39:55.790
And there's a there's an interesting argument that you probably can participate in and how much of how the Internet played out influences that, like, Silicon Valley bias because

490
00:39:56.454 --> 00:39:57.275
you know right?

491
00:39:57.734 --> 00:40:03.035
Yep. No. I mean, Facebook's a incredible example of this. There was a point, I'm sure you all remember,

492
00:40:03.494 --> 00:40:03.994
that,

493
00:40:04.615 --> 00:40:07.275
they were trying to integrate more payments into Facebook.

494
00:40:07.734 --> 00:40:11.115
And instead of choosing the open protocol of of Bitcoin,

495
00:40:11.630 --> 00:40:13.410
they decided to create their own

496
00:40:13.870 --> 00:40:15.170
entirely new protocol

497
00:40:15.550 --> 00:40:20.850
called Libre. Was it Libre? They changed the name once or twice. Right? Libra. Right? Libra? Yeah.

498
00:40:22.430 --> 00:40:22.930
And

499
00:40:23.390 --> 00:40:26.370
it was, in Matt's words, an unmitigated disaster.

500
00:40:27.525 --> 00:40:28.025
And

501
00:40:28.805 --> 00:40:29.305
what,

502
00:40:29.685 --> 00:40:30.665
like, why

503
00:40:31.845 --> 00:40:34.585
why is it so hard for a company like that to

504
00:40:35.045 --> 00:40:39.785
look at a open protocol like Bitcoin that's been around for over a decade when they started that,

505
00:40:40.110 --> 00:40:44.850
has been battle tested, has never gone down, has had almost zero security flaws,

506
00:40:45.470 --> 00:40:46.530
or or hacks,

507
00:40:47.550 --> 00:40:48.930
on the on the main network,

508
00:40:50.030 --> 00:40:51.250
has a very committed

509
00:40:51.870 --> 00:40:53.650
developer ecosystem around it.

510
00:40:54.245 --> 00:40:55.785
Why go that route? Because

511
00:40:56.165 --> 00:41:01.465
if we can understand that, we can we can use that as a template in the case study for other companies who are considering

512
00:41:01.765 --> 00:41:08.025
doing the same. And you know they're going to they're going to have to because eventually Bitcoin will have the usage that they can't ignore

513
00:41:08.530 --> 00:41:09.030
anymore.

514
00:41:10.370 --> 00:41:12.630
But is that just about control?

515
00:41:13.010 --> 00:41:18.390
Are there are there other other reasons that that companies, like, need to take that wrong fork in the road?

516
00:41:19.810 --> 00:41:21.110
The the only other

517
00:41:22.005 --> 00:41:24.984
idea I have around this because what I heard was incentives

518
00:41:26.005 --> 00:41:26.505
control.

519
00:41:27.845 --> 00:41:29.385
The only other one is just

520
00:41:29.924 --> 00:41:31.065
not everyone is

521
00:41:32.325 --> 00:41:35.545
smart or perfect at all things. Like, there are

522
00:41:36.085 --> 00:41:36.585
Bitcoiners

523
00:41:36.885 --> 00:41:37.385
that

524
00:41:37.910 --> 00:41:39.130
I very much respect

525
00:41:39.910 --> 00:41:44.890
who also have bad ideas about things that aren't related to their field of expertise

526
00:41:45.590 --> 00:41:50.490
and people who've told me, you know, the investments that we're making in the ecosystem,

527
00:41:51.190 --> 00:41:56.194
they don't get it. They don't think it makes sense. And over time, I feel like some of

528
00:41:56.974 --> 00:41:59.635
the specific examples they're referring to were proving

529
00:42:00.095 --> 00:42:00.914
very wrong.

530
00:42:01.295 --> 00:42:09.829
And what I've learned from that is, look, I highly respect certain people, but not everyone's right about everything all the time. And so there could be people who just,

531
00:42:10.849 --> 00:42:11.750
they may be

532
00:42:12.369 --> 00:42:13.349
highly experienced,

533
00:42:13.809 --> 00:42:15.829
very well credentialed in building technology.

534
00:42:16.210 --> 00:42:23.349
That doesn't necessarily mean that they need to go build their own technology and money, but they don't see why that's not the case.

535
00:42:24.655 --> 00:42:34.434
Yeah. I don't I don't know if anyone needs to teach anyone anything outside of the free market, in my opinion. I've always called shitcoins an arbitrage on the trend.

536
00:42:34.974 --> 00:42:38.115
You know, I love that. And if I can sell a banana

537
00:42:38.610 --> 00:42:48.390
to my left for $10 and I can buy banana to my right for a dollar, I'm making $9 all day as long as the market remains that inefficient. Right? That's what we call an arbitrage trade.

538
00:42:49.010 --> 00:43:07.005
Arbitrage trades can't last forever, though. Eventually, the banana to my right and left, they're both worth $5. Right? So market's correct. And so I think Shitcoins are an arbitrage, and they're they're an arbitrage trade. Is that what's the arbitrage? Well, there's certainly a regulatory arbitrage. Like, everyone's become their own central bank,

539
00:43:07.410 --> 00:43:19.910
which is extremely profitable. Right? If I can print money in my basement and pay Justin Bieber to tell 8 18 year olds to buy it on Robinhood, that's a really profitable business, but there's some regulatory arbitrage involved in that. And then there's an informational arbitrage,

540
00:43:20.454 --> 00:43:44.400
where people don't fundamentally understand the technology, understand the value, understand the ecosystem, and I'm allowed to convince someone that Pinkcoin and Bitcoin are, like, kinda sorta the same thing, except Pink Pinkcoin's better because it has a cheaper price. Right? But I think at the end of the day, these things correct, and the bananas are worth $5 and the market becomes efficient again. And so I don't know who needs to teach Zuckerberg, probably the fact that he got his fucking ass kicked.

541
00:43:45.339 --> 00:43:55.175
He tried to launch something, he looked like an idiot and a moron, and that's one of the most competitive men in the world. And I bet that didn't feel good. Right? I think, like, Bitcoin gets adopted like gunpowder.

542
00:43:55.715 --> 00:43:59.095
Right? If you don't adopt it correctly, you become the victim.

543
00:43:59.715 --> 00:44:04.295
Alright? If you're going to war and you show up with sticks and stones instead of gunpowder,

544
00:44:05.450 --> 00:44:06.349
you're dead.

545
00:44:07.849 --> 00:44:15.630
So I, like, I think that at the end of the day, like, Mark Zuckerberg is gonna think twice because he looked like a fucking moron and embarrassed his shareholders,

546
00:44:16.329 --> 00:44:23.595
and his whole team quit. And so that's my opinion is, like, it's an arbitrage trade. It's not a sustainable vision. It's not

547
00:44:23.974 --> 00:44:25.515
the the the mountaintop in the skyline.

548
00:44:26.055 --> 00:44:28.315
It's taking advantage of market inefficiencies,

549
00:44:28.615 --> 00:44:37.400
which, you know, you can make moral arguments for or against. Right? But at the end of the day, I don't think it's very long lasting, and I think the free market will punish people

550
00:44:37.780 --> 00:44:38.280
aggressively,

551
00:44:39.300 --> 00:44:40.040
and shamefully,

552
00:44:40.660 --> 00:44:43.160
for mistakes that they make just like Zuckerberg.

553
00:44:44.100 --> 00:44:48.625
He might be good at other things, but when it came to our space, he's a fucking rookie

554
00:44:48.925 --> 00:44:49.744
and a chump.

555
00:44:56.845 --> 00:45:00.385
I think after your rant, they're not gonna adopt Bitcoin at all.

556
00:45:01.950 --> 00:45:13.010
Mark needs Bitcoin more than Bitcoin needs Mark. So on his own time. True. But I think effectively everything comes comes to control. You know, Bitcoin is about having the control over the money, your money,

557
00:45:13.685 --> 00:45:19.545
and all these companies, they just wanna control everything. Like, Facebook wants to control what you see, what you consume,

558
00:45:20.165 --> 00:45:23.865
effectively what you pay and how you pay. So that that's it.

559
00:45:27.579 --> 00:45:29.520
I mean, to bring in full circle,

560
00:45:31.260 --> 00:45:33.760
market dynamics, free market, user choice,

561
00:45:34.619 --> 00:45:36.240
learning by getting wrecked,

562
00:45:38.300 --> 00:45:39.359
when will the

563
00:45:40.220 --> 00:45:40.720
the,

564
00:45:42.175 --> 00:45:44.434
the Fiat VC start getting into Bitcoin?

565
00:45:44.734 --> 00:45:47.474
The guy who was leading the Libra initiative, David Marcus,

566
00:45:47.934 --> 00:45:48.434
left,

567
00:45:48.815 --> 00:45:51.714
founded a Bitcoin company, and it was funded by a 16z.

568
00:45:53.055 --> 00:45:54.275
It brought it full circle.

569
00:45:54.920 --> 00:45:56.300
That's all I have to add.

570
00:45:57.400 --> 00:45:59.420
And but do you think that's a function of

571
00:46:00.200 --> 00:46:01.020
of him,

572
00:46:01.480 --> 00:46:02.460
previous relationships,

573
00:46:02.920 --> 00:46:04.060
the technology

574
00:46:04.360 --> 00:46:09.660
stack and company he's building? Like, what what drove that? Because that is an outlier.

575
00:46:13.425 --> 00:46:15.684
Yeah. I think pre like, probably

576
00:46:16.065 --> 00:46:17.525
not a 16 z's

577
00:46:18.224 --> 00:46:18.724
fundamental

578
00:46:19.265 --> 00:46:20.244
thesis changing,

579
00:46:20.625 --> 00:46:24.165
but I think the point about face Facebook seeking control

580
00:46:24.800 --> 00:46:26.340
in their core business,

581
00:46:26.720 --> 00:46:28.100
again, I think the Internet

582
00:46:29.040 --> 00:46:30.420
had a dark chapter

583
00:46:30.960 --> 00:46:31.460
where,

584
00:46:31.760 --> 00:46:33.300
like, you know, one of the problems

585
00:46:33.680 --> 00:46:34.180
with

586
00:46:35.119 --> 00:46:37.725
I talked about this guy. I've never met him, so whatever.

587
00:46:38.605 --> 00:46:44.385
The new new Zuck with his chain and his MMA, maybe he's a cool guy. I don't know. But the problem with Mark's business is

588
00:46:44.685 --> 00:46:46.225
his users aren't his customers.

589
00:46:46.765 --> 00:46:49.185
Right? This is like a huge problem in the Internet

590
00:46:49.640 --> 00:46:56.220
is that he's building a product for all of us in theory to use in this room, but his customers are advertising.

591
00:46:57.240 --> 00:47:00.940
Right? And it creates this awful dynamic and totally broken incentives

592
00:47:01.240 --> 00:47:03.340
where he tries to pray and control

593
00:47:03.640 --> 00:47:04.460
his users

594
00:47:04.765 --> 00:47:11.025
to benefit his customers. And that's that's, like, to me, the core fundamental issue. You know, you've got a guy

595
00:47:11.565 --> 00:47:12.945
that is so hated,

596
00:47:13.885 --> 00:47:25.529
but has the most one of the most successful businesses and most used products in the world. Like, that lot that intuitively doesn't make any sense. Everyone uses his stuff. Everyone hates him. Right? Like,

597
00:47:26.230 --> 00:47:38.744
from the highest level possible, how is that real? And so I think therein lies, like, a lot of the issue and a lot of, like, from the Internet, from the a 16z, from the, you know, I'm Marc Andreessen. I created the web browser.

598
00:47:39.125 --> 00:47:40.984
You know, it it's, you know

599
00:47:41.525 --> 00:47:44.185
control was the opportunity at the end of the day

600
00:47:44.580 --> 00:47:51.400
in the web. And that's I mean, you know, before this, we're in Nasser conference and, you know, there's there's a whole separate conversation of fixing the web.

601
00:47:52.020 --> 00:47:55.220
But I think that that's the biggest point is that, like, Facebook

602
00:47:55.860 --> 00:47:57.480
what Facebook has been taught

603
00:47:57.954 --> 00:47:59.415
is that control

604
00:47:59.875 --> 00:48:03.174
is higher stock price, and Zuckerberg will go

605
00:48:03.635 --> 00:48:04.694
to any extent

606
00:48:05.315 --> 00:48:06.775
to exercise control.

607
00:48:07.155 --> 00:48:13.015
And like, there's no I don't even think he would walk back that claim at this point. And so how do they approach Bitcoin?

608
00:48:13.680 --> 00:48:17.140
We wanna control it. We can't control it? Not interested.

609
00:48:17.440 --> 00:48:19.700
And they'll just have to go through a lot of pain

610
00:48:20.240 --> 00:48:20.740
before

611
00:48:21.200 --> 00:48:25.859
that's rectified. This is my honest opinion. But I thought I think the unfortunate,

612
00:48:26.560 --> 00:48:28.339
like, recent years of the web

613
00:48:28.845 --> 00:48:32.385
and a lot of the shit that you unfortunately had to go through at Twitter and stuff,

614
00:48:33.005 --> 00:48:49.700
I think that that's where that bias comes from, and I don't think David Marcus changed the way Marc Andreessen thinks about control. No. I don't. And I love David. He's a great guy, and I'm really happy he's working on Bitcoin, but I that's not my opinion. Yeah. I think that model will be broken. Can we talk about, like, engineers

615
00:48:50.320 --> 00:48:53.220
and people working on the on these on these platforms?

616
00:48:54.320 --> 00:48:56.740
You all run or help fund

617
00:48:57.494 --> 00:49:00.154
organizations or developers to work on Bitcoin.

618
00:49:00.535 --> 00:49:01.275
There is

619
00:49:01.575 --> 00:49:03.654
a monster hype cycle right now,

620
00:49:03.974 --> 00:49:06.714
around work that is not Bitcoin related and

621
00:49:07.575 --> 00:49:09.674
financial freedom related and privacy,

622
00:49:10.720 --> 00:49:12.500
or permissionless tech related.

623
00:49:12.960 --> 00:49:13.460
And

624
00:49:13.760 --> 00:49:15.140
it pays a lot of money,

625
00:49:15.920 --> 00:49:17.540
and it's super interesting.

626
00:49:17.840 --> 00:49:21.860
It feels a little bit dangerous in the same way that early Bitcoin did.

627
00:49:22.160 --> 00:49:23.300
How are you attracting

628
00:49:23.600 --> 00:49:25.060
and, more importantly, retaining

629
00:49:25.944 --> 00:49:32.204
engineers to work on this on this protocol, on these on these products? And what's the tension you've seen?

630
00:49:32.744 --> 00:49:36.125
And how do you think this plays out in in 3 years? Because

631
00:49:36.585 --> 00:49:41.165
while we do have an incredible developer ecosystem right now, it's constantly stressed,

632
00:49:41.550 --> 00:49:45.810
and it's constantly tested. It's tested by new technology trends.

633
00:49:46.190 --> 00:49:47.170
It's tested by,

634
00:49:47.790 --> 00:49:48.930
frivolous lawsuits,

635
00:49:49.470 --> 00:49:50.290
people who

636
00:49:50.590 --> 00:49:53.010
pretend to be Satoshi and sue developers

637
00:49:53.310 --> 00:49:56.130
to change the code so that you can get access to the

638
00:49:56.454 --> 00:49:57.915
original Bitcoin of Satoshi.

639
00:49:59.655 --> 00:50:02.555
It'll continue to be challenged in the courts.

640
00:50:03.815 --> 00:50:04.875
It feels like

641
00:50:05.734 --> 00:50:08.075
everything if you choose a Bitcoin path,

642
00:50:08.550 --> 00:50:11.770
everything is either against you right now or coming at you

643
00:50:12.390 --> 00:50:14.170
to tell you to stop.

644
00:50:15.110 --> 00:50:15.610
So

645
00:50:15.990 --> 00:50:21.130
who is this type of person that you're hiring? Why are they staying with you? And what do you see as the challenges in the future?

646
00:50:24.145 --> 00:50:25.045
In our case,

647
00:50:25.425 --> 00:50:39.830
I have, like, part of the people are actually very much into bitcoin, but part of the people who works for us, they're they're being taught by us and educated by us what is Bitcoin. So these people actually now start to admire Bitcoin and how it works.

648
00:50:40.530 --> 00:50:41.030
But,

649
00:50:41.570 --> 00:50:42.710
we try to,

650
00:50:43.890 --> 00:50:50.630
you know, limit them off the drama and we try to keep their privacy. That's number 1. So we don't disclose who our developers

651
00:50:51.545 --> 00:50:53.725
are. We avoid disclosing that publicly,

652
00:50:54.665 --> 00:51:06.525
and we mostly only disclose the business development team. And another reason we have remote team, so most of our developers actually in in in countries that are

653
00:51:08.160 --> 00:51:12.580
that are more friendly to to Bitcoin developers than than other countries.

654
00:51:13.200 --> 00:51:14.340
What are those countries?

655
00:51:16.080 --> 00:51:17.140
Those who are,

656
00:51:17.680 --> 00:51:25.185
well, I'm not gonna disclose those countries because No. No. But but generally, like, what countries do you look at as being more I mean, emerging markets.

657
00:51:26.045 --> 00:51:27.185
Like emerging markets,

658
00:51:28.045 --> 00:51:35.025
these most of the emerging market countries like Latin America or Southeast Asia, they're pretty much friendly towards Bitcoin.

659
00:51:35.500 --> 00:51:40.080
And they they respect privacy, and then literally don't care about what you're doing,

660
00:51:40.620 --> 00:51:42.080
how you're earning your money.

661
00:51:42.860 --> 00:51:43.340
And,

662
00:51:43.820 --> 00:51:45.200
it's kind of like that.

663
00:51:48.695 --> 00:51:52.075
I mean, I think the single biggest advantage we have is

664
00:51:54.855 --> 00:52:02.795
is is that Bitcoin has this it has this draw. Right? I mean, I think most of us I mean, you guys are at a Bitcoin conference.

665
00:52:04.110 --> 00:52:09.490
I don't even know how many Bitcoin conferences there are a year now. I I I think I think most industries

666
00:52:09.950 --> 00:52:12.990
don't even come close to this, and that's because Bitcoin is is

667
00:52:13.470 --> 00:52:14.690
becomes more than

668
00:52:15.390 --> 00:52:18.130
a a career for a lot of people. It becomes more like a lifestyle.

669
00:52:18.750 --> 00:52:19.250
And

670
00:52:20.075 --> 00:52:21.214
and and people

671
00:52:21.755 --> 00:52:23.855
a lot of our our our most prolific,

672
00:52:24.875 --> 00:52:25.375
engineers,

673
00:52:26.875 --> 00:52:31.775
are, you know, they're die hard Bitcoiners. They're not all die hard Bitcoiners. Some of them, you know,

674
00:52:33.620 --> 00:52:35.080
maybe aren't necessarily

675
00:52:37.140 --> 00:52:37.880
as committed

676
00:52:38.340 --> 00:52:43.880
committed to, like, the concepts or the ethos or, like, I I hate to say culture, the culture of Bitcoin,

677
00:52:44.820 --> 00:52:47.080
or like the freedom movement aspect of Bitcoin,

678
00:52:47.775 --> 00:52:52.434
but most are. And what I see a lot happens is they start with

679
00:52:53.295 --> 00:52:58.115
a very high paying private sector job that is completely irrelevant to Bitcoin.

680
00:52:59.630 --> 00:53:07.010
You know, maybe they consume some podcasts. Maybe their uncle or their nephew recommends them to check out Bitcoin, and they they start stacking some Bitcoin.

681
00:53:07.470 --> 00:53:15.090
And as a result, they start getting into the community and they start going to meetups. And, I mean, Grant was talking earlier, like, this industry is very heavily

682
00:53:16.615 --> 00:53:25.995
motivated by this idea of proof of work. Right? I think it's one of, like, the great transformations that Bitcoin is is kinda bringing to the world is that at its core, Bitcoin requires proof of work, requires

683
00:53:26.695 --> 00:53:28.475
real energy and and commitment,

684
00:53:28.855 --> 00:53:33.200
to acquire it in the first place. And as a result, everything that comes later also

685
00:53:33.740 --> 00:53:50.195
is expected to have proof of work. And so we have this this global community that really respects proof of work. And as you get deeper into that community, you start contributing in a part time basis. And then that part time basis becomes a little bit more than part time. And that's the key where something like an Open Sats or

686
00:53:50.575 --> 00:53:54.195
these these Bitcoin businesses that are out there that are are employing developers,

687
00:53:55.135 --> 00:54:03.360
really comes in. Because at that point, when they're thinking about jumping over the ledge, you know, and leaving their high paying AI job or blockchain job or whatever

688
00:54:03.660 --> 00:54:04.480
hype job,

689
00:54:05.340 --> 00:54:06.400
to go into Bitcoin,

690
00:54:06.700 --> 00:54:12.880
there needs to be mechanisms there to to try and decrease that friction a little bit. There'll always be friction and that's what

691
00:54:13.345 --> 00:54:20.325
always works against us, but that's because hard things, you know, are inherently harder. Personal responsibility is more difficult.

692
00:54:20.945 --> 00:54:26.405
So as a result, there will always be friction there, but the key is to try and reduce that friction as much as possible.

693
00:54:28.580 --> 00:54:29.080
Correct.

694
00:54:30.820 --> 00:54:31.620
Yeah. I think,

695
00:54:32.340 --> 00:54:37.640
forcing people down the path to care about Bitcoin, it's it's a hard thing. They they generally

696
00:54:38.420 --> 00:54:43.035
as they come to learn it and this is not just, I think, the engineers. This is across all

697
00:54:43.355 --> 00:54:46.335
All the disciplines. All layers of talent that you need

698
00:54:47.835 --> 00:54:49.455
for a company as you scale.

699
00:54:50.315 --> 00:54:51.695
They come to value

700
00:54:52.715 --> 00:54:53.455
the mission,

701
00:54:54.960 --> 00:54:55.860
their soul

702
00:54:56.880 --> 00:54:57.620
more than

703
00:54:58.000 --> 00:55:07.540
what they're giving up, from those high paying jobs. And it's sort of like as you think about scaling a company, as as you guys were saying, it gets harder to be a Bitcoin company

704
00:55:07.895 --> 00:55:09.035
the bigger you are.

705
00:55:09.335 --> 00:55:11.035
One of the challenges that we've seen

706
00:55:11.575 --> 00:55:12.315
is that

707
00:55:13.015 --> 00:55:16.954
there really is a high correlation between the talent. It could be engineers.

708
00:55:17.415 --> 00:55:22.395
It could be finance people. It could be legal people, but there's a high correlation between

709
00:55:22.850 --> 00:55:25.110
the people who tend to work out for the companies

710
00:55:25.890 --> 00:55:26.630
and being

711
00:55:27.250 --> 00:55:34.310
Bitcoiners, which is hard to it's hard to force them down that path. And there's also a high correlation to the ones that

712
00:55:34.785 --> 00:55:38.244
they don't really care about Bitcoin as much, but they're a very high level

713
00:55:38.785 --> 00:55:40.484
finance person or a high level,

714
00:55:41.105 --> 00:55:42.005
legal person.

715
00:55:43.105 --> 00:55:53.050
And it just doesn't work out because they they're not willing to stick it out relative to the other opportunities that are out there. I will say there's there's also another piece there that we have to our advantage

716
00:55:53.430 --> 00:55:58.490
where for the first time ever and and this is key if the employees or the open source contributors

717
00:55:58.790 --> 00:56:02.490
are Bitcoiners because they actually hold their assets in Bitcoin.

718
00:56:03.875 --> 00:56:05.494
Is we have an industry

719
00:56:06.595 --> 00:56:08.454
she's working on it. She's got it.

720
00:56:09.635 --> 00:56:23.900
We we have an industry where, like, everyone almost has this this global shared equity across industries. Like, I've heard you talk about it, Jack, in the past, like, the this perverse incentive of offering stock options because you're you're forced to to try and get an exit and rush to public.

721
00:56:24.840 --> 00:56:27.100
But employees that hold Bitcoin

722
00:56:28.280 --> 00:56:31.020
and and and stay on Bonsac Sats,

723
00:56:31.635 --> 00:56:32.135
over

724
00:56:32.595 --> 00:56:40.855
time, that value is accruing to them across the entire ecosystem regardless of which company. So it creates this kind of alignment and community

725
00:56:41.555 --> 00:56:45.840
that just doesn't exist in, you know, AI. Like, that that just

726
00:56:46.400 --> 00:56:47.620
wasn't possible before.

727
00:56:51.120 --> 00:56:55.460
And this for, like, the company or for Bitcoin at at large engineers? Both.

728
00:56:55.840 --> 00:56:57.220
I mean, for so,

729
00:56:58.480 --> 00:56:59.140
I think,

730
00:57:01.575 --> 00:57:03.195
fundamentally, as as a human,

731
00:57:05.815 --> 00:57:08.714
we all wanna be part of something bigger than ourselves.

732
00:57:09.335 --> 00:57:12.234
I think that's, like, the desire we all share, connection.

733
00:57:13.015 --> 00:57:14.075
I think inherently

734
00:57:14.375 --> 00:57:16.795
being born and being human, you wanna be

735
00:57:17.289 --> 00:57:18.029
part of

736
00:57:18.809 --> 00:57:24.829
something that's bigger than yourself and working on something that will last longer than you will. I think the best example of that is family.

737
00:57:25.130 --> 00:57:25.630
Right?

738
00:57:26.170 --> 00:57:28.750
Like, finding relationship, having kids,

739
00:57:29.210 --> 00:57:29.710
and

740
00:57:30.089 --> 00:57:31.470
working on your bloodline

741
00:57:31.849 --> 00:57:32.589
that is,

742
00:57:33.015 --> 00:57:37.914
by definition, bigger than you, and your bloodline now will last longer than you will.

743
00:57:38.535 --> 00:57:44.315
And so I think we seek that out as human beings inherently all the time in different forms.

744
00:57:44.694 --> 00:57:59.330
I think Bitcoin is one of the most powerful and expressive forms of that, of being something far bigger than yourself and being something being part of something that will last far longer than you will. And so at Strike, and with myself personally, we really

745
00:57:59.655 --> 00:58:01.915
try hard to lean into that as a culture.

746
00:58:02.615 --> 00:58:07.515
And so beyond salary and equity and Bitcoin, what we can give you is

747
00:58:08.055 --> 00:58:10.955
that form of connection, I think, in being human,

748
00:58:11.950 --> 00:58:15.650
And, you know, some of my most successful employees

749
00:58:16.350 --> 00:58:20.050
that have done tremendously well and carry a lot of responsibility and are

750
00:58:20.510 --> 00:58:23.890
unbelievable at what they do at Strike join not as Bitcoiners,

751
00:58:24.510 --> 00:58:26.685
but I think that culture that we've built,

752
00:58:27.405 --> 00:58:46.230
where people are attracted to being part of that, I think, and, you know, it could exist in AI and such. And, you know, the other thing too is we, you know, we have a culture where if you need to go, it's probably in the best interest of both of us because in order for me to be successful in what I started,

753
00:58:47.090 --> 00:58:50.790
I need you to be on the same page as me. And so

754
00:58:51.090 --> 00:58:52.390
sometimes people go,

755
00:58:52.850 --> 00:58:56.390
but I think that that it's culture for us, culture messaging, brand,

756
00:58:56.735 --> 00:58:57.235
and,

757
00:58:57.615 --> 00:59:01.715
like, the whole, like, dying on that hill, you know, truly, truly authentically

758
00:59:02.335 --> 00:59:03.795
expressing that purpose,

759
00:59:04.335 --> 00:59:06.995
and connecting with my employees in that way,

760
00:59:07.695 --> 00:59:09.155
has allowed us to be successful

761
00:59:09.855 --> 00:59:10.355
with

762
00:59:11.109 --> 00:59:11.609
engineers?

763
00:59:15.190 --> 00:59:21.210
I I think the greatest well, I know the greatest thing we've we've done at Block in this regard is Cray Spyro.

764
00:59:22.630 --> 00:59:24.170
The the fact that we

765
00:59:24.555 --> 00:59:27.615
decided to to really, like, start small, we

766
00:59:28.315 --> 00:59:30.175
we decided to hire 1 person

767
00:59:30.714 --> 00:59:34.015
who could hire 4 other people, a total team of 5,

768
00:59:34.555 --> 00:59:35.055
and

769
00:59:35.675 --> 00:59:36.575
their mission

770
00:59:36.954 --> 00:59:39.055
was just to work on Bitcoin

771
00:59:39.540 --> 00:59:43.000
and work on open source, and they took no direction from us.

772
00:59:43.540 --> 00:59:44.840
And it has been

773
00:59:46.980 --> 00:59:54.040
some of the most valuable idea generations for our company, even though we had no expectation around that. We've gotten incredible work

774
00:59:54.505 --> 00:59:58.925
from them that we use in our main product like Cash App, which is, based on LDK,

775
00:59:59.305 --> 01:00:00.685
which they they created.

776
01:00:01.945 --> 01:00:03.565
It's an incredible recruiting

777
01:00:03.865 --> 01:00:04.365
tool.

778
01:00:04.905 --> 01:00:09.885
People wanna work alongside them, not necessarily on the open source aspects, but they see the

779
01:00:10.220 --> 01:00:13.279
the mastery of their craft and how good they are as engineers

780
01:00:13.980 --> 01:00:18.160
and and people intersecting with the the community. So for any of you with a company,

781
01:00:18.539 --> 01:00:20.160
even if it's just one person

782
01:00:20.700 --> 01:00:21.200
or

783
01:00:21.500 --> 01:00:22.000
half,

784
01:00:22.700 --> 01:00:24.079
half time person that

785
01:00:24.515 --> 01:00:27.415
you're paying, and we we pay them in Bitcoin,

786
01:00:28.035 --> 01:00:32.375
because we didn't want to align their incentives to our stock and to our company. But

787
01:00:32.915 --> 01:00:39.880
the you know, what they're actually working on, which is which is Bitcoin, and as they make it more viable, hopefully, Bitcoin becomes more viable.

788
01:00:41.460 --> 01:00:42.279
But to just

789
01:00:42.740 --> 01:00:47.640
dedicate some resources to full on open source under their own direction,

790
01:00:48.180 --> 01:00:50.680
and I think you'll be really massively surprised.

791
01:00:51.059 --> 01:00:52.760
I also don't think I

792
01:00:53.275 --> 01:00:53.595
I,

793
01:00:54.315 --> 01:00:55.195
I don't think these,

794
01:00:55.835 --> 01:00:57.135
these trends are necessarily

795
01:00:57.515 --> 01:00:58.975
in conflict with one another.

796
01:00:59.355 --> 01:01:02.255
I think if Bitcoin does become the native currency of the Internet,

797
01:01:02.555 --> 01:01:06.655
we are gonna have, like, a lot of agentic AI systems and agents

798
01:01:07.380 --> 01:01:09.559
doing biddings for human, and

799
01:01:09.859 --> 01:01:11.880
they will have to transact. And

800
01:01:12.420 --> 01:01:17.559
they will seek the most friction free way to transact, and it will not be Visa or Mastercard.

801
01:01:18.260 --> 01:01:21.559
It will have to be something like a protocol for the Internet that's open,

802
01:01:22.500 --> 01:01:26.815
that no one government can can control and no single corporation can

803
01:01:27.115 --> 01:01:32.895
own. So I I think we could probably do a better job at, like, pointing at the potential intersections of these

804
01:01:33.195 --> 01:01:33.695
technologies

805
01:01:34.315 --> 01:01:36.235
and get both sides of it,

806
01:01:37.119 --> 01:01:40.740
because you just know that's going to that's going to happen, that's going to occur.

807
01:01:41.040 --> 01:01:44.260
And I don't think we we really talk about that enough. And, again,

808
01:01:44.960 --> 01:01:51.540
bringing up Noster again, like, I think we have a protocol where these things can play right now, and we can test a bunch

809
01:01:51.855 --> 01:01:54.435
and then really scale them up to a a much broader

810
01:01:54.895 --> 01:01:58.275
usage and and use case. So to me, that's super exciting.

811
01:01:58.575 --> 01:02:01.955
Shout out to Spiral team. Shout out to Steve Lee. Shout out to Steve Lee.

812
01:02:08.690 --> 01:02:12.050
I don't know. Is this clock 0 because we're out of time, or is it

813
01:02:13.330 --> 01:02:15.670
Oh, we still have time. No worries.

814
01:02:16.609 --> 01:02:17.109
Okay.

815
01:02:17.970 --> 01:02:22.785
Matt? I I mean, I think we have, like, 4 like you have a question in mind. No. I mean,

816
01:02:24.204 --> 01:02:29.424
I I'm just gonna say the buzzwords, but Nostra AI Bitcoin, there's something there.

817
01:02:35.400 --> 01:02:42.220
Do you have any more questions for us, Jack? Yeah. I mean, I have a ton of questions, but you look like it's a question, not in the statement. No. You're good.

818
01:02:42.520 --> 01:02:43.020
Okay.

819
01:02:45.000 --> 01:02:45.319
The,

820
01:02:46.920 --> 01:02:47.980
I guess the

821
01:02:50.045 --> 01:02:52.865
another big question for me is, like, what use cases

822
01:02:53.565 --> 01:02:55.744
and what friction points in Bitcoin

823
01:02:56.444 --> 01:02:58.865
is a company best served to solve versus

824
01:02:59.404 --> 01:03:00.785
an open source initiative?

825
01:03:01.565 --> 01:03:03.424
Like, I would I would I would probably

826
01:03:05.400 --> 01:03:06.299
theorize that

827
01:03:07.720 --> 01:03:08.220
privacy

828
01:03:09.079 --> 01:03:10.940
is best served in a non corporate

829
01:03:11.319 --> 01:03:13.099
environment, but there might be counterexamples

830
01:03:13.400 --> 01:03:16.780
to that. But as you think about, like, what Bitcoin

831
01:03:17.240 --> 01:03:19.180
what the gaps are, what the flaws are,

832
01:03:19.815 --> 01:03:20.615
and how

833
01:03:21.095 --> 01:03:27.275
and there's a bunch of people in here probably thinking about starting a company or thinking about join joining or contributing to open source initiative.

834
01:03:27.974 --> 01:03:32.315
As you think about the enumeration of the use cases and and the gaps that we all know exist,

835
01:03:32.855 --> 01:03:34.315
like, how do you segment

836
01:03:34.615 --> 01:03:35.115
those,

837
01:03:35.630 --> 01:03:41.890
or or do we segment them? Yeah. I mean, I I I don't think it necessarily has to be black and white. Right? I mean, I think,

838
01:03:44.030 --> 01:03:44.930
there are certain

839
01:03:45.390 --> 01:03:46.770
projects or goals

840
01:03:47.230 --> 01:03:47.630
that,

841
01:03:48.030 --> 01:03:48.850
can intuitively,

842
01:03:49.704 --> 01:03:52.525
you can intuitively interpret could have,

843
01:03:54.585 --> 01:03:56.285
concerning regulatory implications,

844
01:03:56.665 --> 01:04:02.684
right, and and provide a lot of risk to a to a centralized company founder, startup founder.

845
01:04:03.385 --> 01:04:04.444
And those should

846
01:04:05.570 --> 01:04:08.790
probably just be non monetized open source projects

847
01:04:09.330 --> 01:04:10.150
that are,

848
01:04:11.090 --> 01:04:14.470
funded through grants or donations. I mean, one of my dreams is that,

849
01:04:15.330 --> 01:04:15.830
organizations

850
01:04:16.290 --> 01:04:28.085
like like Open SaaS, organizations like Spiral become less relevant as users are just donating directly with things like Zaps with no middlemen, just Bitcoin directly to these developers. But in either situation, just

851
01:04:28.464 --> 01:04:28.964
basically

852
01:04:29.700 --> 01:04:36.440
donation funding a community open source project makes a lot of sense on things that are are are regulatory,

853
01:04:38.500 --> 01:04:43.000
that there's a lot of regulatory pressure on. And usually those things are heavily focused on freedom or privacy.

854
01:04:43.625 --> 01:04:47.565
But there is a middle ground and it's actually one of my dreams that I that

855
01:04:47.865 --> 01:04:53.405
I I hope to see become a reality. I expect it to become a reality, but it's gonna take a lot of work from a lot of people.

856
01:04:54.665 --> 01:05:03.849
And it's only possible really because of Bitcoin, I think, because you have this native money of the Internet that's not controlled by anyone. And that's the sustainable open source business model

857
01:05:04.150 --> 01:05:08.570
where the whole business is built on open source tech that the actual

858
01:05:09.109 --> 01:05:13.325
entire stack of the business can be forked at will, redistributed,

859
01:05:14.105 --> 01:05:14.605
remonetized,

860
01:05:14.985 --> 01:05:26.125
like not a restricted open source license or source viewable license, like an actual full false stack. And those companies exist today. Like Start9 is a full false stack. Primal is a full false stack.

861
01:05:26.440 --> 01:05:31.100
Mempool space is a full false stack. And they're all trying different ways to monetize

862
01:05:31.480 --> 01:05:35.740
on top of that stack. And you get this beautiful combination of,

863
01:05:36.920 --> 01:05:46.345
this situation, as you said, where one of the main concerns if you're running a centralized business is is that purse that founder can be arrested. That person can have a gun put to their head. They can get assassinated.

864
01:05:47.605 --> 01:05:54.665
In those situations, that could happen, and the stack still exists. Someone else can continue it on. Right? It it it it

865
01:05:55.290 --> 01:05:59.710
it inherits and keeps that same viral nature that makes open source so powerful,

866
01:06:00.490 --> 01:06:00.990
but

867
01:06:01.450 --> 01:06:03.390
has a business model on top of it.

868
01:06:03.770 --> 01:06:07.310
But that makes it much more difficult. Right? That's the hardest path.

869
01:06:07.985 --> 01:06:11.525
And I think part of the reason that we're starting to see that now is because

870
01:06:12.145 --> 01:06:22.165
there is this growing global community that is incredibly passionate and and and and and wants to take the harder path because they know it'll be a brighter future at the end.

871
01:06:27.440 --> 01:06:28.340
Max? Yeah.

872
01:06:30.480 --> 01:06:31.700
This is an okay answer.

873
01:06:32.080 --> 01:06:35.700
I mean To mid clap. I mean, free open source contributors,

874
01:06:36.000 --> 01:06:38.535
definitely, they have more freedom, but,

875
01:06:38.995 --> 01:06:40.535
I think they're they,

876
01:06:41.475 --> 01:06:46.455
are cheered less in the community, and they're supported less in the community, and that's the issue.

877
01:06:46.835 --> 01:06:47.975
Because, like,

878
01:06:48.595 --> 01:06:51.569
it's not on Nostra, but if you go on Twitter, which

879
01:06:52.030 --> 01:06:52.770
is x,

880
01:06:53.950 --> 01:07:02.049
and you'll see that a lot of Bitcoiners, they actually cheer corporations or companies instead of cheering free open source developers or developers

881
01:07:02.349 --> 01:07:06.369
who doesn't request anything. And it's like, for a company,

882
01:07:07.605 --> 01:07:08.905
it's pretty much

883
01:07:09.525 --> 01:07:16.185
not that complicated to raise money. You can just go to v c if you're successful enough, then you will be able to get some checks.

884
01:07:16.565 --> 01:07:18.185
For free open source developer,

885
01:07:18.725 --> 01:07:29.550
like, not many people actually understand how how successful the code is or how successful the application they have built is. So it's really hard sometimes for them to get grants.

886
01:07:30.490 --> 01:07:34.935
So I think yeah. Like, free open source developers definitely more freedom, but,

887
01:07:35.655 --> 01:07:40.235
less support in many ways. Not only financially, but also as a community, I think.

888
01:07:40.695 --> 01:07:43.275
We are massively failing, and I'm sorry

889
01:07:43.895 --> 01:07:45.115
to say that, but,

890
01:07:45.815 --> 01:07:47.755
we are massively failing to support,

891
01:07:48.380 --> 01:07:50.960
developers that actually building really cool stuff.

892
01:07:51.420 --> 01:07:53.280
Like, guys from the BISC, for example.

893
01:07:53.740 --> 01:07:56.160
That's the last resort if you wanna buy Bitcoin,

894
01:07:56.700 --> 01:08:00.960
literally. And I think they don't get much credit as they need to get.

895
01:08:01.665 --> 01:08:02.405
That's it.

896
01:08:03.025 --> 01:08:03.525
Yeah.

897
01:08:06.225 --> 01:08:06.725
Brent?

898
01:08:07.585 --> 01:08:09.285
Yeah. What I would add is

899
01:08:09.665 --> 01:08:10.645
I think the

900
01:08:11.185 --> 01:08:12.005
the overwhelming

901
01:08:13.505 --> 01:08:15.365
majority of effort

902
01:08:16.219 --> 01:08:17.600
that developers and engineers

903
01:08:18.460 --> 01:08:19.600
can make is

904
01:08:20.060 --> 01:08:24.640
mostly towards the open source stuff right now. Like, the reality is that

905
01:08:25.100 --> 01:08:26.719
there haven't been too many

906
01:08:27.980 --> 01:08:29.520
businesses that have found

907
01:08:30.255 --> 01:08:33.955
interesting ways to monetize. I mean, it's still so early that

908
01:08:34.255 --> 01:08:36.835
the main monetizable business models are

909
01:08:37.695 --> 01:08:38.195
brokerage,

910
01:08:38.815 --> 01:08:40.595
people are willing to pay for custody,

911
01:08:41.055 --> 01:08:42.355
there's credit products,

912
01:08:42.940 --> 01:08:49.920
People were paying for the privacy oriented services, and that it that now is a pretty significant gap still.

913
01:08:51.820 --> 01:08:53.760
But the further you go down the line,

914
01:08:55.025 --> 01:09:00.005
we haven't we haven't really seen a lot of development on the company side. So I think that actually forces

915
01:09:00.545 --> 01:09:02.645
a lot down the the open source,

916
01:09:03.264 --> 01:09:03.764
path.

917
01:09:05.425 --> 01:09:06.165
Jack. Jack.

918
01:09:06.625 --> 01:09:16.680
What was the was it What was it? Should be a protocol or what should be open sourced? Yeah. No. What what use cases, what products should be worked on by companies versus open source

919
01:09:17.300 --> 01:09:18.600
an open source approach?

920
01:09:19.540 --> 01:09:20.600
You make that distinction.

921
01:09:21.060 --> 01:09:22.120
Yeah. I'm not sure

922
01:09:22.955 --> 01:09:24.495
I'm not sure we have to.

923
01:09:25.675 --> 01:09:27.215
You know, I do think that there's

924
01:09:27.995 --> 01:09:28.495
sometimes

925
01:09:28.875 --> 01:09:36.815
people assume that because Bitcoin exists, that no companies need to exist. I think the opposite. I'm very bullish businesses on top of Bitcoin.

926
01:09:37.220 --> 01:09:45.800
I think it goes back to SaaS flow, or talk about just being profitable. And again, I think of that more morally than financially, is like

927
01:09:46.260 --> 01:09:55.595
serve someone something they value that they're willing to pay for, and I think businesses should be building that. I really deeply believe in that relationship and that level of incentive,

928
01:09:56.055 --> 01:10:03.115
and that Bitcoin allows anyone to withdraw themselves from a relationship with a business. There's no forced relationships with government or business.

929
01:10:04.310 --> 01:10:06.250
And then for open source,

930
01:10:07.110 --> 01:10:07.930
I would hope

931
01:10:09.430 --> 01:10:13.210
everything is open source. I think I agree with Matt. I would hope everything is open source someday.

932
01:10:14.150 --> 01:10:19.075
And, you know, we at Stripe try our best to fund all sorts of different efforts,

933
01:10:19.535 --> 01:10:21.155
whether it's developers directly,

934
01:10:21.855 --> 01:10:22.595
or through

935
01:10:22.975 --> 01:10:25.075
initiatives like OpenSats and HRF,

936
01:10:26.095 --> 01:10:26.595
to

937
01:10:27.615 --> 01:10:29.075
support these developers.

938
01:10:29.610 --> 01:10:35.070
And I I agree with Max as well. I mean, support too doesn't need to be financial,

939
01:10:36.410 --> 01:10:38.590
you know, like moral support,

940
01:10:39.210 --> 01:10:45.345
letting these people know that we value them and see them and appreciate them, and we wouldn't be here without them.

941
01:10:46.305 --> 01:10:49.985
So I'm not sure that there's a huge distinction in, like, us as a company. We we,

942
01:10:50.625 --> 01:10:57.125
recently worked with Spiral and Steve on Bolt 12 stuff. We open sourced our Bolt 12 testing playground

943
01:10:57.800 --> 01:11:01.180
to if you if you guys need to test Bolt 12 interoperability

944
01:11:01.800 --> 01:11:06.540
for all use cases across all the different Lightning implementations, the Lightning node implementations,

945
01:11:06.920 --> 01:11:10.620
that's open source now on on our our strike repository. So

946
01:11:11.235 --> 01:11:13.175
I hope I hope we don't have to draw a distinction.

947
01:11:13.475 --> 01:11:14.455
What's your opinion?

948
01:11:16.915 --> 01:11:21.815
I agree with you. I'd I'd I don't I don't think we have to, but I'd I also

949
01:11:22.675 --> 01:11:24.215
I think there there are some

950
01:11:24.680 --> 01:11:27.260
some things within the Bitcoin space that I'd rather

951
01:11:27.720 --> 01:11:29.820
be heavily biased towards an open source

952
01:11:30.440 --> 01:11:35.500
project than be owned by a a company that has a a particular incentive. Like what?

953
01:11:35.800 --> 01:11:37.340
A lot of the privacy and

954
01:11:38.685 --> 01:11:40.864
more of the permissionless work. And I just

955
01:11:41.244 --> 01:11:43.025
I don't see a path towards greatness in

956
01:11:44.045 --> 01:11:46.385
a corporate context in in many ways.

957
01:11:47.244 --> 01:11:49.025
They might have early

958
01:11:49.885 --> 01:11:51.105
success in that, but,

959
01:11:52.090 --> 01:11:53.390
because as we see,

960
01:11:53.770 --> 01:12:01.790
like, the walls feel like they keep closing in terms of, like, what's what's allowed and what's not. And it's putting this, again, like, choke hold and single point of failure

961
01:12:02.090 --> 01:12:06.684
upon a a project that might be absolutely necessary and critical to,

962
01:12:07.545 --> 01:12:08.605
financial privacy.

963
01:12:09.784 --> 01:12:12.045
So I think we have 5 minutes left.

964
01:12:12.585 --> 01:12:16.184
Maybe we'll, we'll just end with one one topic which is,

965
01:12:17.120 --> 01:12:20.820
we have this saying in the Bitcoin community which is, don't trust, verify.

966
01:12:21.920 --> 01:12:29.780
And a lot of people probably in this room have the capability to verify. You can look at the source code. You can talk with people building it.

967
01:12:30.835 --> 01:12:32.695
You can see the actions.

968
01:12:33.074 --> 01:12:36.135
But I just wanna hear from you all how you think about

969
01:12:36.514 --> 01:12:37.974
building trusted products

970
01:12:38.434 --> 01:12:39.574
and trusted companies

971
01:12:39.875 --> 01:12:41.094
and earning trust.

972
01:12:42.195 --> 01:12:48.280
Open source is obviously one path towards that, but it's not something that the vast majority of people

973
01:12:48.900 --> 01:12:50.760
in the world can actually benefit from,

974
01:12:51.219 --> 01:12:59.400
in terms of trying to verify the code or verify how it works. They might know someone who can help them through that, but how with without that one thing,

975
01:13:00.235 --> 01:13:02.735
how do how do you build trusted products and companies

976
01:13:03.195 --> 01:13:03.935
or projects?

977
01:13:07.035 --> 01:13:09.614
I mean, I think if you if you have to add trust

978
01:13:10.075 --> 01:13:13.695
if you have to add trust to the system, you try and minimize the trust as much as possible.

979
01:13:14.160 --> 01:13:16.340
You try and be as transparent as possible.

980
01:13:17.440 --> 01:13:19.460
And then it really comes down to

981
01:13:19.840 --> 01:13:22.980
to long term proof of work and and

982
01:13:23.360 --> 01:13:25.780
and leading by example and actually

983
01:13:26.655 --> 01:13:40.755
showing what you're doing and how you're doing it and and building up a a reputation. But in general, especially when Bitcoin is in place, you really, really want you have to reduce that trust as small as possible if there's any element of trust there at all.

984
01:13:41.440 --> 01:13:42.420
Yep. Thanks.

985
01:13:43.199 --> 01:14:02.114
In our case, like, from our experience, we just build non custodial stuff. And, like, all our products build on top of multisig, which is which is effectively created every time you interact with HODL, HODL, Debitfy on public Bitcoin blockchain, which you can verify through any block explorer out there.

986
01:14:02.735 --> 01:14:11.720
And we also there's no also vendor lock in, which means that even if we go down for some reason, both Huddl Huddl, Debitfy, you can still access with your counterparty

987
01:14:12.260 --> 01:14:13.480
funds that are locked

988
01:14:14.020 --> 01:14:15.640
in, in the multisync.

989
01:14:16.100 --> 01:14:21.060
So we only hold one key out of the majority out of the set of the keys. So we don't actually

990
01:14:21.815 --> 01:14:28.875
we cannot control, funds that are locked there. So we have built that system again, which is really complicated because, like,

991
01:14:29.335 --> 01:14:39.930
building on top of multisync user friendly solutions are really, really hard. But we have taken that path path. And, like, 6 years we've been doing that, and finally,

992
01:14:40.310 --> 01:14:42.170
there's some progression in that way.

993
01:14:43.270 --> 01:14:43.770
Great.

994
01:14:44.870 --> 01:14:51.095
Yeah. I mean, I think that question as it relates to us building trust is slightly different from these guys.

995
01:14:52.675 --> 01:14:56.295
But the two words I always say is for 10/31 is

996
01:14:56.675 --> 01:14:59.495
authenticity and proximity. I mean, we're here today.

997
01:15:00.035 --> 01:15:01.175
We are authentically,

998
01:15:02.620 --> 01:15:03.120
Bitcoiners.

999
01:15:03.420 --> 01:15:06.720
And coming to Matt's point, I mean, he said proof of work.

1000
01:15:07.660 --> 01:15:09.520
We do it by trying to

1001
01:15:11.900 --> 01:15:14.640
be the the trusted partners to

1002
01:15:15.045 --> 01:15:19.225
the founders who care deeply about Bitcoin because we do too. And,

1003
01:15:20.165 --> 01:15:21.865
the relationships we have

1004
01:15:22.725 --> 01:15:25.465
with the space is our most valuable assets.

1005
01:15:26.245 --> 01:15:26.745
And

1006
01:15:27.270 --> 01:15:33.690
we always tell people who we're trying to build a relationship with, like, if you're if you're trying to build trust in us,

1007
01:15:34.150 --> 01:15:41.449
the best way to do it is just go talk to the people in the space because we think we've built the integrity, the proof of work, and

1008
01:15:41.955 --> 01:15:47.335
there's no substitute for talking to the people that we interact with on a day to day basis. Yeah. 100%.

1009
01:15:47.715 --> 01:15:48.215
Jack?

1010
01:15:49.875 --> 01:15:54.775
No. I think proof of work is is definitely an obvious one. I agree with these guys in that, you know,

1011
01:15:55.470 --> 01:16:04.770
build stuff that works, be here year in, year out, fight the good fight. I think maybe one of the more counterintuitive ones for us at Strike that was core from day 1 was

1012
01:16:06.670 --> 01:16:10.370
prioritizing Bitcoin and fighting for Bitcoin, which

1013
01:16:11.665 --> 01:16:22.085
maybe sounds simple while I'm on the stage, but as a corporation, it's not necessarily intuitive. I'll give you guys, I think, one of my favorite examples when we were a very young business. So, you know, early venture raised

1014
01:16:22.625 --> 01:16:23.765
coming out of beta.

1015
01:16:24.590 --> 01:16:27.170
I got contacted by an Indy 500,

1016
01:16:27.789 --> 01:16:34.289
which is a race in America, a car race. So like a competitive car race, like one of the most popular races in America,

1017
01:16:34.829 --> 01:16:46.245
and they wanted to do something with us, and I had the opportunity to race the strike car, and they would have cut us a really cheap deal. We were a young startup. They just wanted something to do with the space,

1018
01:16:46.885 --> 01:16:55.784
but no one would have given a fuck about the strike car, and I felt like truly in my heart that the best thing we could have done as a business right there was help promote Bitcoin,

1019
01:16:56.140 --> 01:17:22.935
and get more people involved and race the Bitcoin car. And so we did as a business, and it had nothing to do with our company at all. And it had everything and and we authentically believed that. We thought the best thing for our business and for Bitcoin was for Bitcoin to race next to the PNC Bank car, not for Strike. And so that I think is a is a fun story. I think that was 3 years ago at this point, but that is, I think, core

1020
01:17:23.329 --> 01:17:32.630
to, you know, who we've become, and I think why the community and and customers trust us is because they know we're here for the right reasons through through that approach. Yeah. A 100%.

1021
01:17:33.090 --> 01:17:35.989
I I think for us, it's it's making sure that we're building

1022
01:17:36.530 --> 01:17:37.030
options

1023
01:17:37.575 --> 01:17:48.635
and as many options as possible that people don't have to trust us. So one of the reasons we we worked on the custodial wall and and Bitkey is, like, we want people to get their Bitcoin off exchanges,

1024
01:17:49.015 --> 01:17:53.115
and we'd love to find more creative solutions to enable that and and help them.

1025
01:17:54.139 --> 01:17:59.440
There are limits to that, of course, again, in the corporate context of of how we exist, but,

1026
01:18:00.460 --> 01:18:02.880
there's a lot more we can do. And

1027
01:18:03.500 --> 01:18:06.000
I I I wanna make sure that our our tools

1028
01:18:07.585 --> 01:18:10.865
are provide features and functionality and utility that,

1029
01:18:11.425 --> 01:18:14.165
you don't have to trust a company. You don't have to trust a CEO.

1030
01:18:14.705 --> 01:18:19.765
You can still extract value from it, and you're free to move wherever you need to

1031
01:18:20.120 --> 01:18:27.740
where you where you do wanna place that trust. And, ideally, it's tools that allow more trust in in yourself, which is the whole concept of

1032
01:18:28.200 --> 01:18:39.864
having the seed phrases, and, obviously, there's better iterations of that. But that that trust in self is is probably the thing that I think, we all wanna we all wanna align to and all wanna feel much more.

1033
01:18:40.965 --> 01:18:42.585
So with that, any final words?

1034
01:18:43.045 --> 01:18:45.304
Matt, moderator? Excellent job.

1035
01:18:46.804 --> 01:18:48.744
Excellent job. Give it up for Matt.

1036
01:18:49.045 --> 01:18:49.864
Matt O'Dell.

1037
01:18:52.780 --> 01:19:03.360
I was about to thank you for moderating. I thought you did a great job, but Thank you, Matt. I I mean, I just wanted to thank Max and Anna and and the whole Honey Badger team again and all of you guys. This has been such a wonderful experience.

1038
01:19:22.560 --> 01:19:26.420
Thank you. Thank you. Thank you. Thank you so much. Thank you. Thank you.

1039
01:19:26.960 --> 01:19:29.460
Good work. Thank you. Thank you. Thank you.

1040
01:19:30.239 --> 01:19:36.739
So, guys, don't leave just yet. Don't leave just yet. We have one final surprise, a special announcement. So

1041
01:19:37.305 --> 01:19:37.805
2024

1042
01:19:38.425 --> 01:19:42.045
will be remembered not just for the Baltic IBager, but also

1043
01:19:42.585 --> 01:19:44.045
as the year when

1044
01:19:44.505 --> 01:19:45.005
politicians

1045
01:19:45.945 --> 01:19:48.445
all over the world discovered Bitcoin

1046
01:19:49.145 --> 01:19:50.445
and proactively

1047
01:19:51.690 --> 01:19:52.830
are using Bitcoin

1048
01:19:53.210 --> 01:19:54.590
in order to get elected.

1049
01:19:55.290 --> 01:19:56.510
And a lot of Bitcoiners,

1050
01:19:57.610 --> 01:19:59.710
on social media are openly

1051
01:20:00.090 --> 01:20:01.070
picking aside.

1052
01:20:01.530 --> 01:20:03.230
So we discussed a lot

1053
01:20:04.185 --> 01:20:11.324
with the with Max and Anna, and we decided that it's time for the Balticoni Badger to pick a side as well.

1054
01:20:12.025 --> 01:20:12.525
So

1055
01:20:13.224 --> 01:20:14.685
when it comes to politics,

1056
01:20:15.545 --> 01:20:16.764
Balticoni Badger

1057
01:20:17.465 --> 01:20:18.764
strongly endures

1058
01:20:19.840 --> 01:20:20.900
Rhaenyra Targaryen,

1059
01:20:21.440 --> 01:20:22.739
first of her name,

1060
01:20:23.440 --> 01:20:25.380
true queen of the 7 kingdom.

1061
01:20:29.040 --> 01:20:32.660
What I'm trying to say is that Bitcoin is for everyone,

1062
01:20:33.435 --> 01:20:35.215
not just for those you like.

1063
01:20:36.155 --> 01:20:42.335
Bitcoin is not red. Bitcoin is not blue. Bitcoin is for everyone. Bitcoin is freedom.

1064
01:20:43.435 --> 01:20:46.494
Don't pick a side. There is there are no sides.

1065
01:20:48.920 --> 01:20:49.420
Bitcoin

1066
01:20:50.040 --> 01:20:50.540
is

1067
01:20:51.080 --> 01:20:51.580
beyond

1068
01:20:52.360 --> 01:20:52.860
politics.

1069
01:20:54.119 --> 01:20:55.179
Thank you so much.

1070
01:21:01.365 --> 01:21:02.345
Please welcome

1071
01:21:03.125 --> 01:21:04.505
the father of dragons,

1072
01:21:05.125 --> 01:21:06.265
Max Kaye.

1073
01:21:06.645 --> 01:21:11.385
Thank you. Thank you. Thanks for having me. Thank you. Thank you.

1074
01:21:13.330 --> 01:21:17.750
Guys, I wanted to thank you all for coming here. You're all very special.

1075
01:21:18.530 --> 01:21:21.110
I wanted to thank all the sponsor speakers.

1076
01:21:22.290 --> 01:21:23.830
I wanted to to thank

1077
01:21:24.290 --> 01:21:25.989
Nostriga team, Marce,

1078
01:21:26.445 --> 01:21:29.825
for for helping us as well. There you are.

1079
01:21:36.365 --> 01:21:42.065
Those who have been with us for like 5, 6 years, OGs wanted to thank you as well.

1080
01:21:42.680 --> 01:21:43.740
Security team,

1081
01:21:45.160 --> 01:21:46.700
street food court team,

1082
01:21:47.480 --> 01:21:47.980
volunteers,

1083
01:21:48.920 --> 01:21:50.540
and also I wanted to thank

1084
01:21:51.160 --> 01:21:51.660
Anna.

1085
01:21:56.905 --> 01:22:06.525
Yeah. Ricky Ricky said in the morning that she's a mother of dragons, but I would say she's a mother of honey badgers. So, yep, let's that's an official now. That's an official.

1086
01:22:07.065 --> 01:22:08.040
Thank you all.

1087
01:22:08.840 --> 01:22:10.460
See you next year maybe

1088
01:22:11.639 --> 01:22:12.139
and,

1089
01:22:13.400 --> 01:22:15.820
yeah, we're all Satoshi. Thank you. Bye bye.