CD124: MUTINY WALLET WITH TONY, BEN, AND PAUL

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Created: 4/9/2024 8:41:07 PM
Duration: 7914.347
Channels: 1

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If the economy continues to hold up no matter what happens on the fed. I think we've got a good strong economy. We've got very strong domestic demand.

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Consumers are holding up some low income consumers,

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or perhaps exhausting

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their buffers

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of saving that they build up during the pandemic.

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We're seeing a little bit more distress

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at the household level

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there. But, generally,

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households are in very good financial shape shape. You're still confident we can get to 2% this year? We've seen a little bit of a flare up so far this year. Well, I think it will continue to come down over time. That's my expectation. And,

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you know, I'm I'm hopeful that we we can certainly get into the twos.

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I think we can feel great about our economy.

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Was gonna ask you what you mean up to the last jobs report. Well, it just shows that US is firing on all cylinders.

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Happy Bitcoin Tuesday, freaks. It's your host, Odell, here for another Citadel Dispatch, the interactive

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live show focused on Bitcoin and Freedom Tech. That intro clip was US Treasury secretary

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Janet Yellen

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letting us know that inflation is under control, everything is fine,

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and the US has never been stronger.

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I have a great, great group of guests here today to talk immunity wallet. We have the entire founding team of mutiny,

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all return guests, all ride or die freaks.

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For the podcast listeners at home, why don't we go through the horn?

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Tony, welcome back.

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What's up, guys? What's up to you, Aaron, as always?

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We got Paul here as well. How's it going, Paul?

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Hello.

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Thank you for having me.

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Hello hello to you as well.

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And, we have Ben, Ben the Carmen. How's it going, Ben?

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Yo. Yo. Good to be back.

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And as always, we have the rider die freaks in the live Nostra chat. You do not have to have Nostra to use it.

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It allows you to create an account on the fly in the browser.

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You can join that chat by going to sitoldispatch.com/stream.

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So, guys,

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immunity wallet. You guys just had a big update.

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I think the freaks this might be our 3rd or 4th conversation on mutiny wallet through the years on dispatch. So the freaks are probably pretty familiar,

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with Mutiny, but it's come a long way.

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Where where do we get started? What why why should someone care about Mutiny? Why should someone consider using it?

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Yeah.

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We we

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it's it's kind of long

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it's only been, like, a year so far. It's kind of awesome to to see, but, yeah, we started Mutiny Wallet to kind of start building a lightning wallet in what we think is, like, the right way,

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and have that privacy focus built in. We built it for the web first. So even if we're a deplatformed by Google or Apple,

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there's always that web fallback. You can self host it,

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you know, connect to different lightning nodes. Like, we wanted to make it as, like, self sovereign capable as possible, but still, like, as easy as possible for someone to get started with. And and building on the web was a huge part of it where,

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you know, if you you don't have to download an app even to get started. You just, like, go to muti wallet dot com, and then you have a lightning wallet ready to go. So those were, like, kind of the big motivations behind it, kind of what our selling point is, like, trying to build in that accessibility

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and build in, you know,

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what we think is, like, the right way to build a wallet, basically. So, yeah, we've we've had

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quite a few updates over the last few months. I think the big one is, like, our social

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features and the social integration to kinda make it like a Venmo,

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but, like, built on top of Nasr and and on top of Bitcoin and Lightning.

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But then, like, our big one yesterday was Lightning addresses. So now

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for we're rolling it out slowly, so we're starting with Unity Plus users first, for people that subscribe.

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But, yeah, we're starting to roll out Lightning addresses based on Fannie Mae.

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So, yeah, I'm I'm happy to dive into, like, any specific points, but, like, our social stuff, our, like, lightning address stuff, federation stuff, like, these have been huge updates over the last, like, you know, really few weeks, really.

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Yes. I mean, let's, I guess, let's pull it back.

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Originally, when mutiny first launched, it was,

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you know, the it was browser only. This idea that you could just open

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a fresh wallet, a full lightning node,

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in in your

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in your phone browser. It didn't matter if you had an old Android phone that didn't have the App Store

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or if Apple, you know, decided that they didn't want any Bitcoin while it's on the App Store.

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You could just load it up directly in the browser. You could load it up on a desktop computer. Pretty much anything that had a browser, you could just load it up, which is really fucking awesome, and you still can do that.

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Since then, you guys have actually launched native apps. You wanna talk really quick about

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why native apps? Why why do

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if you can just do it in the browser, why do we have App Store apps available in both Android and iPhone?

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Do you like, native apps are kind of just, like,

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better? Like, if you can go through the the compliance of apple and Google, like they're more secure and more performant. They get all these like, nice like features, like, you know, with apple, you can't use like NFC

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without an app and stuff like that.

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So it's kind of like, you know, the, we always want to support the web. Like that's, you know, it's like, where we were started with, But, like, if you can use the app, you should just because it's got all these benefits that the, you know, the phone OS is give you. But,

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you know, the the the the way we built it, it's like it can easily

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go between, like, native app and, web. So it shouldn't be a huge problem if, like, Apple rug pulled us tomorrow. Just type in your 12 words into the into the web, and you're, you know, you're back in action.

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Badass.

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So you guys just added sediment support. Why'd you do that?

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Self custodial lightning,

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it we do as much as possible to to

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smooth over as many restrictions with, like, channels and and a lot of friction there.

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I think Phoenix, like, absolutely does it the best as far as, like, Lightning channel and, like, you know, trying to extract liquidity or sorry, the yeah. The aspects of liquidity balancing and things like that into the picture.

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But it's still

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too much

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of like, if you wanna use Mutiny Wallet today as, like, a brand new user,

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you pretty much you have to open a channel. And to open a channel requires, like, on chain fees

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to start receiving and then on chain fees, like, you know, for for sending as well. So, you know, if someone wanted to start with Muni today, we're talking, you know, when the when the chain fees are really high, we're talking, like, a $50 investment

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to to try out

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a new application. And and that's not usually, like, how it works. That's not how you, you know, reach people.

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I think I think with FEDIMENT,

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the whole idea around it is that we can

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sort of, like, abstract a lot of the same functionality, like sending and receiving over Lightning.

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That's, like, what users are trying to do. Right? Like, they're not trying to manage channels. They're not trying to worry about all those things.

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They just wanna send and receive and and to just try out the wallet

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for, like, a few 1,000 sats. Like, we have some people that just load up with a 1,000 sats now just to try it out, and they're like, holy shit. Like, this is awesome. I love being able to zap someone, like, a few sats all the time.

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It just, like, smooths it over. And so it's all about, like, removing the friction,

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but still having self custodial channels in there. So if you have if you have a bunch of sats on the federation,

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you can just, you know, sweep it into a lightning channel. You can do a swap, and it opens a lightning channel to you to the same phone.

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You know, you'll pay the on chain fees for it, and the channel fees. But once you do that, you have the same lot, the same user experience. It's just, like, now you have more SaaS that are on self custodial

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versus, like, what's on the federation. Could we because with the federation, like, yes, there's still, like, more members, but you still kinda have to, like, you know, trust

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those members to run the Fendi Mint network properly and to, like, not rug pull and things like that.

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So you do want to like, if you start getting bigger stats, like, like, put it in the self custodial. But just the aspect that people can just try out for a little bit is is huge for removing friction, getting more users, getting feedback,

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and things of that nature. So that like, I've been I've been working on it for, like, 6 months now. Thought it would be a lot quicker than that integration, but, it's been it's been awesome working with the with the Federman team and and seeing how far that's progressed

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over the last 6 months. So, like, huge shout out to all of them for working on it and and doing what they do.

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It it really solves so many problems for us. Like, you know, like Tony said, that that minimum $50 is not in fees. It's, you know, the minimum channel size that we have set is a 100,000 sats, and that's not just some us being mean. Like, it's just silly to make a lightning channel smaller than a 100,000 sats. And, you know, once upon a time, that was $20.

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Right now that's, like, almost $70.

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And if you think of it, you know, we we're we're we're

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comparing ourselves to, like, you know, a Cash App and Venmo, those sort of social payment apps.

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And

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how did they get users? They paid people $5

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to use the to use their app. So

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we're we're saying, Hey, come use our app, the start with $70

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and then you can see what it's like.

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So Fedimint gives us that like,

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you know, cold start start with a 100 sats, you know, especially if you, you know, if you're most people's, like, day to day usage of of lightning right now seems to be on noster.

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And so, you know, if you wanna be, you know, sending, receiving small amounts, and and that's fun to you,

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you know, investing $70

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to do that

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might just be a nonstarter.

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But if you can just join Infediment and get started, that's great. And the other, you know, the other huge motivation for us that made it so obvious

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to move in the InfiniBand direction is this offline receive

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Lightning address. You know, async payments are not a thing yet in

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in Lightning. And even once they are,

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it's not like a slam dunk, you know, fix everything kind of solution.

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Do you know a traditional lightning payment,

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both nodes do need to be online for it to go through.

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And so when you have a mobile wallet, the whole point of it is that the node runs on the device, and therefore, it can't just be on all the time. So to receive offline,

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having this, you know,

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even if you're just using the Fedimint as a proxy,

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you know, so funds flow into there,

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now to your lightning address. And then when you come online, you can sweep them, you know, to yourself custodial if you want to. It's it's just a huge huge win for for UX.

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I love the idea of this mix of self custody lightning plus Fedimint.

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I think you guys are the first ones to kind of try out this model regardless of even charming e cash.

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This idea of a custodial and a self custody

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mixed together,

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It's it's an interesting trade off balance. It's a compelling trade off balance. So, I mean, to unpack this a little bit for the freaks,

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we had Cali on dispatch a couple weeks ago talking about KashU, which is single sig, Chaumu, and e cash.

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We had Phoenix.

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We had Pierre, the CEO of Phoenix Wallet

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on last week, to talk about self custody lightning on mobile and how they do it.

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This is kind of like a combination of the 2,

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with the with the added benefit that the idea of Fedimans is that instead of you having a single sig custodian, a single sig, Charming, eCashmint,

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you have a multi sig. So it requires

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multiple people in,

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the quorum to come together to to steal the money or to make a mistake,

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that loses the money.

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So, I mean,

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I I guess, like, one of the big things with with choosing a Fedimint, a Fedimint, you don't have to trust

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the Mint operators with your privacy because you use Charming eCash, so you're not giving up any privacy there.

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And I know that was, like, a major goal,

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especially early days immunity wallet. I mean, I remember still dispatch 21 with Tony.

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We spent, like, 2 and a half hours talking about all the different privacy trade offs of of trying to use Lightning privately.

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And the dream is to have a wallet that kinda just automates all of that for people or automates as much of the best practices as possible.

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But you do have to trust them in terms of actually maintaining,

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the maintaining

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the mint and

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not being malicious.

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And so there's this whole I you know, it's like, who do you choose as your Fediment? And I you guys have implemented this kind of web of trust system. You wanna talk about that a little bit?

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Yeah. I mean so, like, we've been kinda going all in on these, like, nostril features with, like, the social feed and all that stuff. But,

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we're like, well, we already have this nostril stuff in, like, why don't we just use nostril's discoverability layer for Freddieman? So,

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I made a net for it, and basically, it's just like there's 2 sides of it. One side, like, federations or Freddieman announce themselves from the Austin and say, like, hi. I'm a Mint. Here's my name. Here's, like, the invite codes to join me. This is, like, the different modules we support,

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all that stuff. And then on the other side, the users can join that federation from that announcement. And then they can also, like, create a recommendation event saying, like, hey, this mint is great. I recommend it. And then so in Vienni,

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when you go to add a federation, you just have a list of all these announcements of people that have made and saying like, oh, cool. Odell recommended this sediment, and I can see that, like, only he recommended it, but all the other people that I follow recommended as well. So we can just kind of, like, sort those by, like, you know, who's

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recommending the most federations and stuff. And,

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it makes it, like, a lot nicer because we we had Freddie Mac support in the app for about, like, I don't know, maybe, like, 4 months now. But for the longest time, everyone's just, like, how do I get a Fed invite code? I wanna join a federation, but like

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no one knew how to find these invite codes. Like sometimes people would tweet them out on Twitter and stuff. That was about it. So now it's like, okay, it's just native in the app. You never need to, you know, go to an alternate platform to find, like, an invite code. It's just all in the app, and you can, you know, whoever you trust,

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you can see, like, who they're also trusting.

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It's a basic, like, distributed, censorship resistant trust pilot.

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I I do wanna make it clear, like, this we're definitely early on this, like, web of trust. A lot of people have been talking about web web of trust

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stuff, and and this is a big you know, we were just in Madeira for a couple months

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and

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with a lot of Net Nostra devs and Bitcoin devs, and,

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you know, Web of Trust was a big theme.

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And so, like, right now in the wall, we list federations. We show we have some heuristics for not just showing every rando

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whoever, you know, clicked recommend. You know? I mean, on Nostra, it's obviously very cheap to set up a new identity. So, you know,

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but but I could have, like, a 1,000 end pubs just immediately. And so that ultimately should result in, you know, basically

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no signal. But, you know, what what what is actually

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what is actually interesting? Okay.

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Who

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do I follow these people? You know? Do I have a bunch of mutual follows with with these people?

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You know, have they I don't know.

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Showing more metadata about the the, the federation itself. You know? Like, are any of the members of the federation public? So I could see, you know, do I trust them? Do I follow them?

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Those those sorts of the you know, how long has this been around? You know?

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There's lots of I think we can get a lot more richer, you know, not trying to make it intimidating, but for people who are ready to

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vet more deeply what Federation they're gonna trust, I hope that we can, you know, provide,

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some something's a little bit more rich there. But right now, this is just kind of the the first pass on, hey. You can see some faces, and if you recognize them, it's it's a better way to

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to choose choose a myth. Yeah. I think I think with WebTrust, the key idea is, like, going into,

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the specifics of what it is you are trusting people. So it's like, just because I follow,

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you know, a few hundred people, I don't trust them for, like, everything that we try to apply WebTrust properties to.

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The the

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the

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NIP I forget the NIP it is, but but, like, this whole WebTrust

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Federation and Mint Discovery thing, the reason why I like it so much is because it's, like, single purpose, this one specific thing. It's like I can recommend a Mint.

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I can have friends that recommend a Mint. And if people are following me, they can kinda judge for themselves.

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I trust this person for recommending Mintz or, you know, whether or not you do that.

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That's kind of up to you. Like, we can make it transparent.

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There's other things I might trust certain people for, but then there's also, you know, people I might not want to take recommendations

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for Mints.

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So just the ID like, there's bitcoinminced.com,

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made by Bob and and the Prism team, and, like, we kind of worked alongside them on the spec for this. And so, like, they were building, like, a dedicated website for,

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e,

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all e Cash Mints. So there's Cashew and Fennymint, and they support them both, and you can recommend you can list Mints on there. You can recommend Mints.

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And then meanwhile, alongside it, we were building

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this into immunity wallets specifically for Fedimint. We don't have we don't have cash to support in our wallet. We're kind of just going the Fedimint direction instead.

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But we can still pull in the same federation events that happen on Bitcoin Mints and vice versa. So,

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you know, from from that perspective alone, I think I think it's huge. Like, this is where, like, Nasser wins. Right? Like, Ben has a famous note on Nasser that's just like, you know, Nasser doesn't have a discovery problem. It is the discovery solution.

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And I think there's so much truth to that.

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Yeah. Like, I think, like,

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you know, there is the problem of, like, there can be a 1,000,000 fake Odell's, but, like, once you find the real Odell, like, discoverability,

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like, can work so well. Because now I can find everything that the real Odell likes and he interacts with, like, super easily. It's just, like, a super simple query to anything.

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And, so yeah. Like, you know, once you have that, like, in meeting, you were kind of assuming you have a good follow list and you can find the people you trust. Once you have that, like, it's so easy to discover people to, like, pay them. And so you discover, like, zaps. So you need to discover funny mints as long as you can, like, bootstrap that initial list of friends.

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I I think there's something worth discussion. So Duck just posted a comment I'd like to answer.

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Does web of trust cause centralization?

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And and there's some truth to that. You know? Like, we we debated, you know, some of this mint

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discovery

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stuff ourselves

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or, like, you know, running a mint and being, like, one of the only mints there. Like, is it too early

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for this kind of solution? Like like, I mean, one of the reasons I like the fact that we didn't have something like this in our wallet

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is just because it's like it's too it's too it was too early for, like, recommending mints to people. You you might be able to say it still is, but, you know,

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let the market figure it out now. At this point, the cat's out of the bag.

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But it just kinda like I I wanted to wait a little bit so we can kind of let mints kind of pop up. And it was almost perfect timing when the free Madeira Mint launched. That was, like, the same week

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that Bitcoin Mints launched, and we were, like, 1 or 2 weeks away from launching our Mint discovery. So it's like there's enough trends go going in the right direction of it. But, yeah, I mean, you could say there's some centralization

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caused by,

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everyone just joining the one mint. I still think there's a lot of opportunity for many Mints to spin

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up. But on the reverse side of that, kinda like what Paul said, like and and me a little bit too where, you know, let's say there is a community of people where, you know, they are on Noster. Let's,

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like like, let's say, a community in Madeira. Right? Right? Like, this is a perfect example. Let's say Madeira wasn't the first to launch. Let's say they launched,

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you know, after it's already, like, a 100 minutes. Well, the people in Madeira, they might be following each other on Oster, and they might, like, spin up a mint.

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And they might

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be mostly concentrated in Madeira, and all of a sudden, what you have is, like, Madeira people recommending the Madeira mint and not the other ones. So you just naturally, we can bubble up in the UI the Madeira Mint for the people that are following a bunch of Madeira people. So, like, in a way, there is some centralization cause, but not in the other way. Like, you could say it's like, how else would you cause decentralization?

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Like like, this is this is kind of if you naturally start having your own communities

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in a decentralized way, you kind of naturally can kinda create solutions that kinda fit for them and not just like, we don't just recommend,

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like, the biggest mint to you in the UI. Like, we recommend the one that has the most amount of your followers,

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the people you're following,

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recommending that meant. So we could kind of, like, do some smart UI stuff to kind of incentivize people to use the one that might be the best suited for them because the people around them have said it was best suited

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for them. So I think I think it's an interesting aspect like centralization versus decentralization. Like, I think having something like this otherwise, you just you just everyone how else do you discover mints? You just eventually, a big one will pop up, and that's the only one people will know, and there will be no discovery layer for any other mints to pop up. And then everyone just uses the big one. And the prime example of this is like FTX.

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Right? Like, you know, a big a big exchange pops up. They're doing marketing. They're, you know, doing all this stuff, and everyone just uses that single one.

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But, you know, we can sort of, like, distribute that a little bit. Yeah. I think another example is, like, liquid. It's like, in theory, anyone can spin up a liquid network, but there's only one just because

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there's been that one existing for years,

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and there's no real, like, easy way to find other liquid networks. There's no, like, real incentive to set up another one, which is, like, with Fedimint, they kind of, like, totally fix that of, like, they're meant to be a lot smaller and more agile and, you know, all this stuff. And My understanding is the HSMs aren't false, and so you can't actually have computing. Like,

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it's not permissionless to create a computing liquid network. I think you you could create one that's just like, you know, you're not using

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the they're fancy. It's just them, so it's not as secure. Like, you could have your laptop sign that blocks.

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But,

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But anyway, the point remains. I mean, you have to think about, like, what is what is the alternative. Right? Yeah.

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And up until this point, the alternative has been

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you know, you download while the satoshi, so you use their custodian. And and while the satoshi is incredibly successful, then everyone uses the same custodian.

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While this seems like a clear net benefit, that mutiny is not, like, loading you up and and choosing who your Mint is.

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You get to the user gets to choose.

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Yeah. Imagine imagine if you had something like the Wazatoshi UI, but now it allows you to pick your,

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you know, kind of, like, risk vector and and everything. Like, you get to decide what to do. So right right now,

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like, you know, kudos to Wawa Satoshi. Like, they made something that seems intuitive to people and, like, they like and enjoy the app, things like that. But they're sort of decentralized

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provider, so it's like you get you you use their wallet, then you have to use their infrastructure.

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Meanwhile, with something like us, it's like you use our wallet, but you can pick anyone's federated infrastructure to use that's backing it. So you can kind of kind of decide for yourself what to do, and that that makes it more adaptable for us. Like, we we don't have to run the the the Fedimint infrastructure,

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like and then at the same time, you know, if you like the you know, you want experience, you're not tied to just, like, us in our back end. So there's a lot of benefits

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by, you know I mean, that's the, like, the benefits and also, right, like, plug plugging into the open network. Like, Fedimint

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is also another open network. It's just an open network for for ecash tokens.

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Satoshi, like, become like a protocol versus, like, an app where, you know, they can have that same kind of experience. But

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now instead of, you know, if they get a letter from the the government to shut down the America,

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the whole app's gone in America versus now, it's like, oh, just that federation is gone in America. We could just I could just hop over to another one. It's the same app and everything because it's a protocol, not just a

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proprietary thing. You could even make it one button.

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Exactly.

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It's like, okay. Time to migrate. Click the migrate button. Yeah. Speaking of, someone had a question. You know, how do users get of a Mint get notified if a Mint is shutting down?

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You guys gonna offer this?

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Only if you're a subscriber?

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Yeah.

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Plus users.

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Probably notification as a paid subscriber service.

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Yeah. Like, I know all the men, so I'll just, like, hand tell people now.

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It's it's an interesting question. I I don't know. This?

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Yeah. You can have you can have, like if the Mints there there is a mod so, like, the cool thing about Fannie Mae is, like, it's more than just eCash, Bitcoin, and Lightning.

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They're building this sort

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of OS layer.

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I think like how Feddy and and Obi would put it. Like like, it can do so much more than that, like, on a federated level. It's I think he had one point at one point said it was like a federated OS. You could have things like password managers in in there. You can think have things like social

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recovery backups in there. Like, anything that, like,

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involves, like, key, like, key signing or or things like that at all could go in there. Someone made a module that was, like, Nostra specific where, like

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because it uses, like, the same cryptography that Nostra uses,

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you can have something where, like, each of the guardians

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have one key of a Noster

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master key.

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And if they all agree to to publish something, it gets published or not all. If a majority agree to publish something, it gets published. So you could have something where it just says, like like, just announcements or updates in general

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would be useful to to bubble up and, like, to pass on to the users. So I think I think historically,

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Fedimint has started integrating,

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a chat protocol, like a different chat protocol into their wallet. I forget the name of it. They're using matrix

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now.

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They're using matrix now? Okay. Yeah. Interesting. Yeah. So they're experimenting with different chat protocols. I I think something to Oster makes the most sense because that's, like that's an easy way to split up the keys to different guardians.

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It naturally supports it. You you don't have to have the guardians run the relay. They can just take advantage of every other relay that runs and blast the message to all them.

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So I think something like, I would love to see more

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more mint like noster nips

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come in the time to come. But this is like Paul said, this is all super early bleeding edge stuff. Like Yep. Like, the the mint

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spec to just announce the mint, you know, was just created a few weeks ago and was just, like, implemented by 2 people. Right? So it's it's just all still early and but, like, these are kind of the right questions that we need to answer. How do we know MN's gonna shut down? How do we know, you know, how to inform the user? I've been a big proponent of, like, having

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expiration dates on Mints just to kind of get it out there. Like, hey. This this mint's not gonna be around forever. Here's, like, an expiration date for the mint. Like, the Fennymint protocol has support for

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announcing the expiration date right at the front. So you can kinda just say, like, hey. Your your sets aren't gonna be here forever. We we promise to run this meant all collectively until this date, and then from there, we're not sure. Like, get your sats off before the state hits,

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because, like, it's still too early. Like, if if Guardian spin up today, the problem is, oh, well, now I have to support the software forever

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because you have forever liabilities,

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of Bitcoin. And I think with the expiration date, it almost treats it like a Visa gift card where it's like, this is this is good for this functionality

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up until this date. And then from there, you know, I make no guarantees.

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And I think that's all you can kinda say at this early stage of. It's just people just, you know, running it and kinda seeing how they like it. Well, let's talk about well, I mean, while we're on that topic, let's talk about the pain points of FetaMed right now.

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Oh, there's none. It's great.

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I think

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there's always something, like the fact that it's so new makes it hard. Like, there's, like I think like in the main net, like we can discover like 3 federations

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and like we've had like

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some issues where it's like, oh, the gateways aren't working or like, oh, the fees are high or too low to actually make payments. Like a lot of this stuff it's like, you know, payments had been on main net for like 2 months at most. So it's like, they haven't run into all those kind of, like, you know, on test net, there's no fees. There's no,

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like, high uptime requirements. It's just like it just kinda you spin it up, it works, and you, you know, then you merge the pull request versus, like, main net. You need to, like, test that it works for, like, you know, 6 months straight with the no downtime and the fees don't come into account and break things and stuff like that. So that makes it a lot harder. So I imagine they're gonna run into, like, lots of different little things there. But, I mean, for the most part, it's been it's been great.

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Yeah. It's very much bleeding edge. Yeah. What what one of the one of those one of the issues with with, FEDIMA right now, and I know that they're trying to find a a good solution for this, is let's say you have a have a mint going and there's, like, you know, 5 members,

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and one of them decides that they don't wanna be a part of anymore.

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It'd be nice to be able to just say, okay, so the other 4 are going to nominate a new person to replace that and they'll like swap them out somehow.

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There isn't some graceful, like swap out,

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mechanism.

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So what happens now? You have to get them into a new one?

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So, yeah, you right now, the way to solve that would be to start a new federation

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and then move move everybody over. It's not not not a cool I mean, I'm sure we could, like, build stuff on top of that to try to, like, kinda smooth over that.

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Like, even if I mean, it could be like someone gets hit by a bus. Right? It's like

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Oh, yeah. There's buses everywhere.

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Yeah. Too many buses. Yeah. It's like a really hard problem. Like,

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just doing the negotiation of, like, you know, seamlessly switching out that member is hard. But then it's like, okay, now, like, say it's like a 3 or 4 federation. And well, it's like, now that 4th member, their key is still on the multisig of the the Bitcoin on chain. So it's like, we need to, like, move that Bitcoin from, like, one address to another. Someone needs to pay those fees. And it's like, okay, if we just pay the fees from the Bitcoin,

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well, now our federation

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is,

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you know, it's it's now, like, doesn't have all the Bitcoin net for e cash. It's like a minor it's fractional reserve.

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So now it's like, okay. We need to, like, figure out a way to, you know, someone pay those fees or figure out a way to actually negotiate that. Like, in theory, you can do it, with, like, Frost and Musig and all that stuff to, like, not have to move the Bitcoin, but, like, that is

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a long ways away from now. So, like, it's it's all of these, like, hard problems to figure out that,

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you know, need fancy cryptographers or something.

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So we have this comment from n pub 15lmjackx

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saying,

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by the way, if you set a username, we'll we we'll have usernames

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in the chat. Quartic.

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It's showing up on Amethyst.

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It's Cortic. Okay.

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I guess

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it's a big relay versus small relay debate all over again. But, anyway,

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Cortic is saying,

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fuck all that instead of building privacy spending tools on chain without deterministic links. This is wasting time on web of trust and, again, trusting some entity.

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I trust no mint or federation. Fuck that word salads to lure more idiots to it. Mints are not part of Bitcoin. When you deposit Bitcoin into a mint, it's not Bitcoin anymore. The Bitcoin provenance is gone. When you convert Bitcoin to liquid, it's not Bitcoin, but a private chain controlled by Blockstream notes.

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Tony, I mean, you wrote a fantastic piece about this. You wanna just chat real quick on this? Because, I mean, this is I think this is incredibly important,

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aspect to for for potential users to keep in mind.

328
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Yeah. No. This is something different. Yeah. This isn't Bitcoin. It's not Bitcoin anymore. A 100%. I agree. I think people

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come in with with those attitudes, and I think the like, I think they would know or, like, if if they would know, like, I would agree with with almost all of it. It's not Bitcoin. It's a different network.

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It's not a network where a single person controls it, and I think that's the beauty of Fedimint.

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You could you could say it's still custodial,

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but, technically, legally speaking, it's noncustodial

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because there's not unilateral control of the funds by any single party. And that's and that's honestly, like, the biggest aspect. That's, like, the biggest

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that's the biggest appealing thing to me. Like, you could yes. There are a lot of people, a lot of Bitcoiners that, like, are don't trust anything in the world, except, of course, the fact that they can't audit the Bitcoin and their the Bitcoin code and their trust and other people do. That's besides the fact. But, yeah, there's a lot of people that say they don't trust anything else in the world,

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and then they they can use Bitcoin as is and just fine. But the reality of the situation is is, you know, Paul has talked a lot about trust as a scaling solution. Like, you have to trust some things, and and there's gonna be people that trust different things based on different aspects. Federman is the best privacy tool that could possibly exist.

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Ecache is itself.

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So from a privacy perspective,

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it's fantastic.

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And if you were to ask me how I would, like, want like, basically, use use Fedimint for whatever risk model you have. If that risk model is 0, then don't use it at all. If that risk model is, like, up to up to a 1000000 sats because you like the benefits that it provides as as an alternative to Bitcoin. It can do things that Bitcoin can't we can't do on Bitcoin on chain today.

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And so if you wanna take advantage of those things, if you wanna take advantage of the privacy aspect,

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use it for as much amount as you're willing willing to possibly you lose on it.

342
00:35:31.385 --> 00:35:34.525
But, yeah, I mean, I agree. Fedimint is its own network.

343
00:35:35.680 --> 00:35:44.045
You don't have a claim on the bit you you might think you have a claim on the Bitcoin, but you're swapping Bitcoin for for eCash on a different on a different network.

344
00:35:45.005 --> 00:35:48.704
And you should kind of, like, come in with that come in with that idea.

345
00:35:49.405 --> 00:35:59.170
Would you We we call it ESATs in our wallet just to kind of try to make the distinction that, like, this isn't this isn't Bitcoin. This is, like, e cash based Satoshis.

346
00:36:00.675 --> 00:36:07.975
But, you know, I'm I'm always trying to think of we haven't bubbled it up to the user interface right now, but, like, I would encourage people to go read tonygeorgio.com/freditmint,

347
00:36:10.900 --> 00:36:16.360
because, you know, I I try to express these ideas, and I would like to bubble up some of those to the UI at some point.

348
00:36:16.740 --> 00:36:23.575
Would you agree with the statement that if you're using a Fediment, you're converting your Bitcoin into a Bitcoin peg shit

349
00:36:23.955 --> 00:36:24.455
coin?

350
00:36:27.315 --> 00:36:27.815
Yeah.

351
00:36:28.840 --> 00:36:30.860
Yeah. I like thinking of it that way.

352
00:36:31.800 --> 00:36:36.780
I I think something important to note here is, like, you know, Bitcoin in its current form, like,

353
00:36:37.105 --> 00:36:41.765
absolutely will not scale for everyone to be self custodial on chain. Like, you know,

354
00:36:42.785 --> 00:36:53.930
if like, I think Paul did this math and they're like kinda open to me. It's like, we were talking earlier, like a 100 k sats for a lightning channel. It's like, if every single person on planet earth opened a 100 k lightning sat channel,

355
00:36:54.575 --> 00:36:55.475
that would be

356
00:36:56.095 --> 00:36:57.235
half of all Bitcoin,

357
00:36:57.535 --> 00:37:03.235
basically, which is like, you know, the it's too late for this for everyone to get all that. So like,

358
00:37:03.710 --> 00:37:11.890
we're not gonna be able to scale on chain, or even lightning to, like, every single person. So unless we get some, like, super fancy softworks enable lots of other things,

359
00:37:12.315 --> 00:37:20.015
but even it's kind of the only solution right now that's, like, gonna be able to, like, have people use Bitcoin without, like, going into something like a Coinbase.

360
00:37:20.690 --> 00:37:29.670
And, so like this is yeah. Or an ETF. But, like, you know, ETFs don't allow payments and, you know, you can't zap someone from ETF. And they also hold their Bitcoin on Coinbase.

361
00:37:29.975 --> 00:37:32.395
Exactly. It's still it's just a layer on top of Coinbase.

362
00:37:32.935 --> 00:37:35.115
So, Coinbase layer 2 solution.

363
00:37:35.895 --> 00:37:37.195
Yeah. So like

364
00:37:38.070 --> 00:37:42.890
in its core inform, it's like, you know, we we built a self hosted lightning wall and it was doing great, but it's like,

365
00:37:43.510 --> 00:38:10.835
you know, we have like a, you know, few 1,000 users and we're running to scaling limits already. It's like, if we wanna scale to millions of users, like, if we wanna compete with Cash App and Venmo, we kinda need, you know, something else. Otherwise, we're not gonna be able we'll also be, you know, sitting around with our thumbs up our ass, like, you know, having the moral high ground, but never actually being able to, like, compete in the global scale. And, like, on a Bitcoin side, like and or waiting for a protocol change where it's you know, I think most winners

366
00:38:11.760 --> 00:38:19.700
that are educated on the topic think we should be very slow with protocol changes, and then you should not assume any protocol change will happen anytime soon.

367
00:38:20.605 --> 00:38:24.625
Yeah. Yeah. Such in one of the tires here. That is the it's available today.

368
00:38:24.925 --> 00:38:26.065
You can use it today.

369
00:38:26.925 --> 00:38:32.310
Yeah. And I'm more interested in things that we can use today. I'm more interested in things so that we can build today,

370
00:38:32.690 --> 00:38:35.750
because I think there's a lot I think there's a lot of

371
00:38:36.105 --> 00:38:38.045
still unexplored space and,

372
00:38:38.345 --> 00:38:42.285
like, we talk a lot about scaling issues, like, on chain.

373
00:38:43.305 --> 00:38:43.805
There's

374
00:38:44.280 --> 00:38:49.100
there's still, like, social scaling issues. There's still, like, how do we get, like,

375
00:38:49.480 --> 00:39:15.255
as many people just to use Bitcoin even on, like, Wallacetoshi. Like, I'm sure they have a bunch of users. Right? But it's not it's not a big part of the world, like, using them in the first place. So it's like, you know, I think I think there's still I mean, you know, there's the exchanges that are kind of the big bubble that everyone gets to just because that's really easy to push in fiat and buy Bitcoin and, like, that's all people do with it. When it comes to, like, spending and using Bitcoin,

376
00:39:16.210 --> 00:39:20.310
and receiving Bitcoin, there's still a big unexplored spot in penetrating

377
00:39:20.610 --> 00:39:29.605
the global market and to try and get people to do that more with or without, like, scaling issues that exist. So, like, the fact that we can do something like Fedimba today

378
00:39:29.905 --> 00:39:31.525
and do things like this today

379
00:39:31.905 --> 00:39:32.805
to try to

380
00:39:33.830 --> 00:39:36.890
get as many people using Bitcoin as possible or something

381
00:39:37.510 --> 00:39:38.970
interoperable with Bitcoin,

382
00:39:40.035 --> 00:39:57.800
you know, feel like Bitcoin. Right? Like, I I think there's still a lot of wanna explore space into into making a really good app that appeals to people and gets them to wanna use it. We talk a lot about, like, covenants and other scaling solutions, right, that I'm on the perspective of, yeah, we should, like, take some time. I don't want to, like, hedge a business

383
00:39:58.385 --> 00:39:59.765
on a fork of Bitcoin.

384
00:40:00.145 --> 00:40:02.245
We always see how badly that turns out.

385
00:40:03.025 --> 00:40:04.405
And I think that's a bad

386
00:40:04.705 --> 00:40:06.785
I think that's bad for the network. I think that's bad for,

387
00:40:07.960 --> 00:40:09.660
I think that's bad for a lot of reasons.

388
00:40:10.760 --> 00:40:14.460
But, yeah, I'm more interested in things we can do today, things that we can build today,

389
00:40:14.760 --> 00:40:16.075
and how we can get

390
00:40:16.474 --> 00:40:23.454
people using Bitcoin today. I think I think a lot of Bitcoiners are coming at this whole thing from kind of like a from

391
00:40:24.234 --> 00:40:24.734
from

392
00:40:25.090 --> 00:40:27.110
a different perspective in that

393
00:40:27.650 --> 00:40:30.070
if you've been in Bitcoin for a long time,

394
00:40:31.090 --> 00:40:33.110
you you've probably made, you know,

395
00:40:33.435 --> 00:40:38.175
Bitcoin transactions that cost you on the order of, like, you know, US pennies.

396
00:40:38.955 --> 00:40:39.355
And,

397
00:40:40.155 --> 00:40:41.135
you you've

398
00:40:43.270 --> 00:40:57.035
you, when you see a lightning wallet or something like that, you're like, oh, you know, I've, I I'm, I'm going to make moves a little bit of money out of my cold storage in, like, open up, you know, a big channel or something like that, so I can start playing around with or medium sized channel

399
00:40:57.734 --> 00:41:03.880
so I can start playing around with, like, you're coming coming from this. I've been stacking for this, you know, long away future.

400
00:41:04.500 --> 00:41:05.640
I'm staying humble.

401
00:41:05.940 --> 00:41:14.145
And, you know, I want Bitcoin to scale, and so I'm going to experiment things, but I'm coming from this, like, you know, this really beautiful,

402
00:41:14.845 --> 00:41:17.885
almost perfect system of of of,

403
00:41:18.430 --> 00:41:19.250
on chain Bitcoin.

404
00:41:20.430 --> 00:41:22.290
But for someone who is,

405
00:41:22.590 --> 00:41:24.530
like, new to Bitcoin,

406
00:41:25.150 --> 00:41:26.210
showing up now

407
00:41:26.685 --> 00:41:33.185
and, you know, sometimes that that, you know, you if your first Bitcoin transaction has, like, you know, like, $5

408
00:41:33.645 --> 00:41:35.425
USD equivalent fees,

409
00:41:37.020 --> 00:41:45.845
And, you know, how are you how are you gonna how are you gonna get your first stats? And and so we're kind of, like, almost taking, like, hey. People like using things like Venmo

410
00:41:46.464 --> 00:41:51.204
and, you know, Cash App, and how do we drive that in the direction

411
00:41:51.585 --> 00:41:52.484
of the

412
00:41:52.900 --> 00:41:53.480
the cypherpunk

413
00:41:54.660 --> 00:41:55.480
and unruggable

414
00:41:55.860 --> 00:41:57.240
ethos of Bitcoin?

415
00:41:57.540 --> 00:41:58.280
How do we

416
00:41:58.580 --> 00:42:02.360
preserve as much of that that experience both in the cost

417
00:42:02.905 --> 00:42:03.885
and just

418
00:42:04.745 --> 00:42:05.725
general aesthetic

419
00:42:06.585 --> 00:42:09.165
of of those, you know, more popular consumer

420
00:42:10.150 --> 00:42:17.685
spending apps because the, the, I love the cyberpunk stuff and the cyberpunk stuff got us here, but the cyberpunk stuff,

421
00:42:18.885 --> 00:42:23.705
it never seems to go, you know, like it's this is classic problem with like a PGP.

422
00:42:24.245 --> 00:42:25.540
You know, it was a great

423
00:42:26.020 --> 00:42:28.600
technical solution, but it never really went broad,

424
00:42:29.460 --> 00:42:30.760
because people didn't really

425
00:42:31.540 --> 00:42:33.880
embed it into, you know, consumer tools.

426
00:42:34.585 --> 00:42:38.525
So how do we bring as much as much as we can achieve

427
00:42:38.904 --> 00:42:41.164
without leaving a lot of people behind

428
00:42:41.640 --> 00:42:42.859
of this unruggable,

429
00:42:43.559 --> 00:42:44.059
unstoppable,

430
00:42:44.839 --> 00:42:48.299
cyberpunk ethos. You guys keep talking about Cash App, Venmo.

431
00:42:49.285 --> 00:42:53.865
I mean, I think the what I really wanna see is, like, I wanna see, like, the

432
00:42:54.405 --> 00:42:55.944
the signal of payments,

433
00:42:56.325 --> 00:42:57.704
the signal app payments.

434
00:42:59.339 --> 00:43:03.839
And, like, I and I bring that up deliberately. Right? Because you've brought up PGP and

435
00:43:04.220 --> 00:43:09.135
the adoption issues that we've seen with PGP, and I I think signal has solved a lot of those issues

436
00:43:09.775 --> 00:43:14.195
while giving pretty strong privacy guarantees and pretty good performance guarantees.

437
00:43:14.975 --> 00:43:17.155
I think Signal right now is at about 400,000,000

438
00:43:17.535 --> 00:43:18.035
users,

439
00:43:18.720 --> 00:43:20.579
which is much less than, like, a WhatsApp,

440
00:43:21.920 --> 00:43:24.579
but still an incredible achievement. Like, that's

441
00:43:24.960 --> 00:43:27.140
pretty amazing that they've hit that kind of numbers.

442
00:43:28.095 --> 00:43:36.990
I I I think there's, like, there's, like, a line where depending on how motivated you are to achieve some outcome is how much pain you're willing to go

443
00:43:37.950 --> 00:43:39.970
through to get that outcome. And signal

444
00:43:40.350 --> 00:43:43.730
has done an amazing job of of vastly lowering.

445
00:43:44.265 --> 00:43:53.165
You know, there's still a little bit of pain. Right? You know, I can't it if I send a single message to a phone number, does it show up as a blue text on their iPhone, you know?

446
00:43:54.250 --> 00:44:03.495
So there's still you know, it's not but but it's, you know, meanwhile, like, you know, there's other a lot of other privacy chat apps that I've tried that

447
00:44:04.375 --> 00:44:16.740
includes so much pain and suffering that unless you were app your number one priority in life was privacy, you're not gonna use them. So signal has really lowered that bar, and I think that's I think that's beautiful.

448
00:44:17.040 --> 00:44:18.420
Like, signal, like, is

449
00:44:18.745 --> 00:44:22.045
you have pretty strong privacy guarantees, but you also have sticker.

450
00:44:23.785 --> 00:44:33.160
Now when you can send video I think they still have I think they still have stories. Does anybody ever No one uses stories. Has anybody ever posted a story on signal in all time?

451
00:44:33.700 --> 00:44:36.654
They should have never. That was a choice at that time. But, anyway,

452
00:44:36.954 --> 00:44:37.775
I digress.

453
00:44:38.555 --> 00:44:41.295
Talking about Cash App coming to the to Munich.

454
00:44:41.674 --> 00:44:42.654
Yeah. Don't ask.

455
00:44:43.680 --> 00:44:47.140
We were we've been talking about Cash App, Venmo. We haven't really talked about

456
00:44:47.600 --> 00:44:49.860
your social features. I mean, I

457
00:44:50.535 --> 00:44:54.315
I kinda love this idea of mutiny as, like, the freedom Venmo.

458
00:44:55.415 --> 00:45:00.390
You wanna talk about the social features? Why did you guys choose Noster to to integrate with

459
00:45:01.250 --> 00:45:04.390
and how that all works in in practice for the end user?

460
00:45:05.809 --> 00:45:10.745
Yeah. I think, you know, the Nostra stuff kinda got started because, we're we're playing around with,

461
00:45:12.245 --> 00:45:13.545
Nostra Wallet Connect.

462
00:45:13.845 --> 00:45:15.945
So you could have a Nostra client,

463
00:45:16.530 --> 00:45:21.590
and instead of having a built in wall in that Noster client, like a social media style, like Twitter,

464
00:45:22.530 --> 00:45:25.724
style app, Instead of having a having a built

465
00:45:26.025 --> 00:45:36.779
in wall in there, you could connect it to your Mutiny wallet. And so you're basically using Nostril Wallet Connect. It's it's almost kinda like entering your credit card information. Like, you're giving this thing,

466
00:45:37.160 --> 00:45:37.900
this app,

467
00:45:38.200 --> 00:45:43.885
a a privilege to ask another app, in this case, Mutiny Wallet, to make payments.

468
00:45:44.265 --> 00:45:47.085
And and on Nostr, those are Zaps.

469
00:45:48.345 --> 00:45:48.845
And

470
00:45:49.339 --> 00:45:50.079
I think

471
00:45:50.540 --> 00:45:51.040
because

472
00:45:51.819 --> 00:45:56.640
I, I, I don't know the percentage, but a vast number of the,

473
00:45:57.475 --> 00:46:00.135
I would say a vast majority of the,

474
00:46:01.155 --> 00:46:01.555
vault,

475
00:46:02.035 --> 00:46:05.655
number of payments. I don't know about an actual size of payments, but the

476
00:46:06.035 --> 00:46:07.559
actual sats terms,

477
00:46:07.940 --> 00:46:10.039
but the number of payments on lightning

478
00:46:10.500 --> 00:46:11.240
on Noster,

479
00:46:12.420 --> 00:46:14.440
pretty sure dwarfs any other usage

480
00:46:14.765 --> 00:46:18.305
of lightning. And so it makes sense that as you know, a lightning wallet

481
00:46:18.605 --> 00:46:20.145
with Noster wall connect,

482
00:46:20.605 --> 00:46:21.620
people were using it.

483
00:46:22.420 --> 00:46:22.920
And

484
00:46:23.460 --> 00:46:25.860
so Noster just became this, this kind of,

485
00:46:27.220 --> 00:46:32.505
natural, natural friend to us and in a big place where know, we were getting users.

486
00:46:33.365 --> 00:46:36.425
And so the with the social redesign

487
00:46:36.725 --> 00:46:44.060
was this idea of, I mean, I didn't have this term right in front, but this is what I'm, like, retconning everything as is,

488
00:46:44.680 --> 00:46:47.180
it's it's a people oriented wallet.

489
00:46:47.480 --> 00:46:50.705
I mean, it's something that I I've been kind of surprised to learn

490
00:46:51.085 --> 00:46:56.465
trying to, you know, get better at UX stuff is that it turns out copying pasting

491
00:46:57.130 --> 00:46:58.430
a string of text is

492
00:46:59.530 --> 00:47:01.790
a no go for a lot of people.

493
00:47:02.330 --> 00:47:05.390
And, like, and it's it's very a sobering realization

494
00:47:05.695 --> 00:47:07.775
because, you you know, like, I I I

495
00:47:09.775 --> 00:47:10.755
my text editor,

496
00:47:11.615 --> 00:47:13.075
like, it automatically

497
00:47:13.375 --> 00:47:17.940
puts a line that I delete into my clipboard. I probably, like, you know, copy and paste,

498
00:47:18.320 --> 00:47:40.839
like, like, 5,000 times a day. Big copy paste guy. I'm huge into it. And so, you know, but so just kinda realizing, like, okay. This is this is what we're dealing with. And so the idea that you you when you want money, you create an invoice, and then you text that to somebody or email somebody, or you have to be in person with them and have them scan it or something like that.

499
00:47:41.545 --> 00:47:44.125
A good a good example of this was in in Madeira,

500
00:47:45.065 --> 00:47:49.805
and I'm I'm sure we've all given this example a 1000000 times, but somebody paid for a dinner,

501
00:47:51.200 --> 00:47:54.980
with their credit card. It was like a group of, like, 10 Bitcoiners.

502
00:47:56.000 --> 00:47:57.140
1 person paid,

503
00:47:57.735 --> 00:47:58.555
and then

504
00:47:59.095 --> 00:48:06.955
everybody started calculating how much they owed them and then asking them, Hey, make me an invoice. Hey, make me an invoice. And it was just like, it was like,

505
00:48:07.720 --> 00:48:08.619
it was a parallel

506
00:48:09.000 --> 00:48:09.500
parallelism

507
00:48:09.960 --> 00:48:17.115
problem. Like, there's one dude making invoices on the wall, the guy who's wants the money. And so he's gotta make the invoice,

508
00:48:17.494 --> 00:48:24.350
let the guy scan it, and wait for it to go through. Oh, that didn't work. Try a different wall. You know? And so it's taking forever.

509
00:48:25.850 --> 00:48:39.535
Meanwhile, having these new social features in there, I like searched him on Noster and zapped him the money and and I was done. I didn't have to scan anything. And so I it switched the thing from being this exchange of invoices

510
00:48:39.915 --> 00:48:46.390
that people you know, I think that's complicated for people to even, you know, have a good conception of what that means

511
00:48:46.770 --> 00:48:47.270
to,

512
00:48:47.570 --> 00:48:48.950
I'm gonna find the person,

513
00:48:49.645 --> 00:48:51.905
and and I'm gonna send them money.

514
00:48:52.365 --> 00:48:58.225
So that's that's that's the main thing with the the social redesign. And so how it works right now is is we have,

515
00:48:58.790 --> 00:49:00.250
like, nostril search.

516
00:49:00.950 --> 00:49:01.610
We use,

517
00:49:02.470 --> 00:49:05.050
we run our own instance of, like, the primal API,

518
00:49:05.510 --> 00:49:11.595
which has, you know, some some heuristic for, like, you know, real what is a real person.

519
00:49:12.055 --> 00:49:16.450
So it's not just gonna show absolutely random in pubs that are pretending to be Odell, hopefully.

520
00:49:18.269 --> 00:49:21.545
And we so there's more web of trust stuff to do there as well.

521
00:49:22.505 --> 00:49:24.045
And then In practice,

522
00:49:24.345 --> 00:49:33.369
like, in practice, it's like I can just open Muni Wallet. I could type in Tony, and I could just send Tony a payment. He doesn't have to send me an invoice. He doesn't have to send anything.

523
00:49:34.070 --> 00:49:36.490
Even better now, what I recommend

524
00:49:36.790 --> 00:49:39.944
is that here here's how to get started with with Mutiny.

525
00:49:40.325 --> 00:49:41.625
You download Mutiny

526
00:49:42.164 --> 00:49:43.065
and you,

527
00:49:43.684 --> 00:49:44.905
you join a federation,

528
00:49:46.099 --> 00:49:47.799
and then you search up somebody

529
00:49:48.099 --> 00:49:50.680
that you know on Noster, maybe it's Tony,

530
00:49:51.140 --> 00:49:52.920
and you ask them for money.

531
00:49:53.385 --> 00:49:56.925
Because you just start Oh, damn. So many people are gonna do that right now.

532
00:49:57.225 --> 00:50:03.869
If you can send a PayPal pass through. Yeah. So so that that's one of the the newer things that we've added is,

533
00:50:04.589 --> 00:50:09.170
because we added Nostra DMs. Just don't ask Marty for money. He won't zap you.

534
00:50:10.995 --> 00:50:12.695
Because we added Nostra DMs,

535
00:50:13.075 --> 00:50:18.615
and right now, this will only it'll only show up in their wall if if, they're following you,

536
00:50:19.380 --> 00:50:29.695
but it shows up as a as a payment request in the app. I mean, this was something that we definitely wanted to replicate from, you know, Venmo Cash App is being able to request money from people.

537
00:50:30.155 --> 00:50:34.575
And so, basically, all it is is it it is an invoice. We're just DM ing an invoice,

538
00:50:35.500 --> 00:50:37.440
but Mutiny understands that

539
00:50:37.820 --> 00:50:41.760
and, and can render that as a payment request, or you can pull up the chat,

540
00:50:42.060 --> 00:50:42.960
with that person

541
00:50:43.425 --> 00:50:47.285
and and and see it. So then that's the prompt. When you find somebody,

542
00:50:48.145 --> 00:50:49.605
on Noster in

543
00:50:50.225 --> 00:50:52.965
in in mutiny search, it it pulls up a chat UI,

544
00:50:53.730 --> 00:50:57.349
and it says, hey. This is your first message with this person. Try asking for money.

545
00:50:57.730 --> 00:50:59.750
Can I submit an audible PR?

546
00:51:02.185 --> 00:51:02.685
Are

547
00:51:03.225 --> 00:51:07.725
are we are you creating issue, or are you submitting working code? It's an issue. I'm working code.

548
00:51:08.760 --> 00:51:09.260
Sure.

549
00:51:09.960 --> 00:51:11.980
Automatic reminders for payment requests.

550
00:51:13.240 --> 00:51:16.620
You know, like, you have you have there's, like, some friends that, you know,

551
00:51:18.155 --> 00:51:22.015
they owe you money, and they just they won't you know, it takes them weeks to pay you.

552
00:51:22.315 --> 00:51:27.980
It'd be nice if just, like, every week, it just automatically, like, ping them. It's like, you still haven't paid Odell.

553
00:51:28.440 --> 00:51:29.339
I like that.

554
00:51:29.880 --> 00:51:31.740
Yeah. I I wanna be able to, like,

555
00:51:32.875 --> 00:51:34.895
set up an auto Zap where,

556
00:51:35.675 --> 00:51:38.075
like I want to stream, you know, like I I've,

557
00:51:38.555 --> 00:51:43.270
you're, you're, you're sad right now, and I wanna stream you sats to make you feel better.

558
00:51:43.730 --> 00:51:45.910
So I'm gonna, you know, give you a 100 sats,

559
00:51:46.290 --> 00:51:50.875
you know, every 10 minutes for, like, like, 12 hours or something like that.

560
00:51:51.335 --> 00:51:53.915
It's just real nice and spammy behavior.

561
00:51:55.015 --> 00:51:57.740
But, yeah, I don't know if, Is it best of us? Eventually,

562
00:51:58.360 --> 00:52:01.580
the invoice will expire, so you would need to, like, somehow, like,

563
00:52:01.960 --> 00:52:02.700
yeah, like,

564
00:52:03.400 --> 00:52:05.260
mark it somehow as like,

565
00:52:05.674 --> 00:52:15.375
hey. This person really owes me money. I'm not just I'm not just goofing around here. So, yeah, keep asking them until they pay it or something. It's impediment. Can't you just create a new invoice

566
00:52:15.760 --> 00:52:16.980
automatically on the fly?

567
00:52:19.359 --> 00:52:24.500
Let's see. That's a bit of a Tony question. Yeah. You could just, like, pull it from their Lightning address.

568
00:52:25.525 --> 00:52:26.025
So

569
00:52:26.565 --> 00:52:35.440
in theory, you could totally do that if, like we could, like, make a new standard of, like, this is a payment request, and then when the person tries to pay it, it just, like, pulls an invoice from their,

570
00:52:36.059 --> 00:52:43.565
that person's lightning address and pays it. But, anyway, I would say, like, I fucking hate Venmo, but, like, that was the single one of the single biggest

571
00:52:43.865 --> 00:52:47.085
value ads was just the fact that you could just, like, bill friends,

572
00:52:48.025 --> 00:52:50.030
for paying you back. Mhmm.

573
00:52:50.330 --> 00:52:55.790
Yeah. That was one of the big reasons we text them. You're like, you still owe me $20. You still owe me $20.

574
00:52:56.505 --> 00:53:03.085
And, well, I forget what it was. I think it was the Bronx Tale or whatever. It was like, if a friend owes you $20 and doesn't pay you back, that's, like, the cheapest

575
00:53:03.385 --> 00:53:06.365
way to realize that you're never gonna lend the money again. But

576
00:53:07.369 --> 00:53:12.589
And and and weirdly with with lightning, I feel like a lot of times the problem is the opposite

577
00:53:13.049 --> 00:53:15.390
where you'll wanna pay somebody back

578
00:53:15.945 --> 00:53:16.425
and,

579
00:53:16.905 --> 00:53:31.220
you keep on asking them to give you an invoice, and they just never get around to it. Or even if they do give you an invoice, maybe you buyers. You are, like, asleep. And when you try to pay it, now they're not on online anymore. So, you know, now that we have lightning address, that that part is solved too.

580
00:53:31.934 --> 00:53:47.380
And that was, like, one of the big reasons we went with, like, adding DMs, whereas, like, we were trying to figure out, like, okay, we have, like, push payments to someone. How do we request payments to someone? And, like, we're trying to, like, galaxy brain, like, some notch bulk connect stuff of, like, oh, what if you had, like, an NWC that you could only

581
00:53:47.760 --> 00:53:52.415
ask invoices over for, and you'd create an individual one for each contact so you know who it's from.

582
00:53:52.715 --> 00:53:54.175
But it's like that it is, like,

583
00:53:54.715 --> 00:54:05.640
became like a commentary explosion of, like, stupid things. Whereas, like, what if we just did DMs and just send an invoice and a DM to them and, like, it just handles their just, like, did a total grog brain version of it. And,

584
00:54:06.280 --> 00:54:15.085
that's what we did because it made it so much simpler. And now we have, like, chat in the app. So, like, it's like a feature ad as well as, like, adding the thing the original thing we wanted was with requests.

585
00:54:15.550 --> 00:54:27.315
And, like, it's cool because, like, a lot of, like, Noster clients, like, implemented this, like, a year ago, like, before we even had zaps where, like, if you posted an invoice, it would, like, render it as an invoice. So we just, like, did the same thing in Mutiny.

586
00:54:28.015 --> 00:54:31.315
It's not if I DM an invoice to you, but you don't use Mutiny,

587
00:54:31.615 --> 00:54:34.035
you use Primal or you use Domus.

588
00:54:34.390 --> 00:54:42.810
You can just see, oh, someone sent me an invoice and you just hit pay. Right? And, you know, your preferred Noster client instead of, like, having to use Mutiny's specific protocol.

589
00:54:43.945 --> 00:54:54.890
Yeah. That's I mean, that's another thing worth noting is is the whole big part of this whole social stuff being based on Nostra means this contact list that you're developing of people you pay or ask for money

590
00:54:55.190 --> 00:54:55.930
is portable

591
00:54:56.390 --> 00:55:01.385
across multiple apps now, which is pretty awesome. You know? We work in Primo. It works in Zeus.

592
00:55:02.005 --> 00:55:07.785
It's it's it's pretty cool instead of, you know, oh, I don't like this wall anymore. Now I gotta rebuild my social graph.

593
00:55:08.520 --> 00:55:09.339
Yeah. I mean

594
00:55:09.800 --> 00:55:12.859
and that's one of, like, the predatory things that, like,

595
00:55:13.880 --> 00:55:16.220
Venmo or Cash App has done. Right?

596
00:55:16.525 --> 00:55:19.505
Is that if you leave them and you try and go to a different payment app,

597
00:55:19.885 --> 00:55:23.105
you gotta start your social graph from from scratch. Mhmm.

598
00:55:23.485 --> 00:55:30.380
And that's not the case anymore. And, I mean, I think it's really cool that with Nasr, like, first of all, you can you can build it into your wallet without any permission.

599
00:55:30.745 --> 00:55:35.405
You don't have to deal with the potential centralized entity rugging you out of API access.

600
00:55:35.945 --> 00:55:38.685
And then this the the second thing is

601
00:55:39.160 --> 00:55:50.404
is I mean, you guys I I believe I don't know if it's still the case, but I I believe you're using primal's caching server, which is false. So you're running your own version of primal primal's caching server,

602
00:55:50.865 --> 00:55:54.565
which I just think is just so fucking awesome. It's just like compounding freedom.

603
00:55:57.099 --> 00:56:02.960
Is that still Yeah. Yeah. We're still running it. Yeah. And and it and it's so it's so quick and fast.

604
00:56:04.135 --> 00:56:04.635
I'm,

605
00:56:05.175 --> 00:56:09.035
like, very grateful for for for the software and the team, but, like, I wanna see

606
00:56:09.655 --> 00:56:11.434
I wanna see, like, more

607
00:56:11.850 --> 00:56:15.230
relays, like, normal relays, especially if they're a big relay anyways

608
00:56:15.610 --> 00:56:18.110
running a primal caches service on the side,

609
00:56:18.890 --> 00:56:21.894
for their application. Right? Like, there's there's no reason

610
00:56:22.515 --> 00:56:23.015
that,

611
00:56:24.674 --> 00:56:35.650
when it comes this is just gets into an Oster specific stuff, but there's no reason why you can't have multiple pieces of software in the software stack for for, like, Nostra infrastructure and distribute it where you're hitting

612
00:56:36.165 --> 00:56:41.625
many different, like, normal, very dumb NOS relays, and then you're also hitting, like, more advanced

613
00:56:42.085 --> 00:56:55.855
functionality you can add on to it as well. So, like, I would I would, like, it's very great software and, like, very thankful for the team for, like, building it. And, also, like, you know, any anytime we run into, like, little issues here and there, like, they they help provide support and, like,

614
00:56:56.315 --> 00:57:00.415
you know, talk to us on, like, GitHub issues or, you know, the fit submit PRs,

615
00:57:00.720 --> 00:57:06.240
based on our feedback and stuff. So they've been really easy to work with, but then the software itself has been great. Yeah. What

616
00:57:07.359 --> 00:57:07.859
go.

617
00:57:08.464 --> 00:57:12.565
Even on, like, feature requests, they've been great. Like, our Zap feed, we originally needed,

618
00:57:13.025 --> 00:57:35.109
help with them for. And they, like within, like, 2 weeks or something, they had that feature ready for us. And, like, that's when we first set it up. And I think we need another one recently for, like, all the like, an API to see, like, is this a real user or not? And, they're like like, oh, yeah. We already built that. We didn't, put it in the GitHub repo yet. We pushed it up immediately, and now we're running it. It's, like, super nice that they just, like, work real quick for us.

619
00:57:35.410 --> 00:57:40.150
Yeah. That Zap feed is an example of something that would not be, like, a feasible

620
00:57:40.450 --> 00:57:41.510
query, like,

621
00:57:42.665 --> 00:57:44.045
between who I'm following,

622
00:57:44.985 --> 00:57:50.910
you know, who is zapping them and who are they zapping? That was a question that there wasn't, like, a good

623
00:57:51.309 --> 00:58:04.095
lost or query for at the time to traditional release. So that's just information you couldn't really really get. Another another this is kind of in the weeds, but To be clear, that shows, like, it shows which of my friends are paying other people

624
00:58:04.474 --> 00:58:11.740
via zaps. Who's who's sending Bitcoin pay public Bitcoin payments between each other. Yeah. It's like stalking people on Venmo, but based on Master.

625
00:58:12.040 --> 00:58:12.525
Yeah.

626
00:58:13.404 --> 00:58:20.980
The another this is very weedy, but I think it's a good example of why, like, primal is nice as the primal API is nice as an app developer is, like,

627
00:58:21.360 --> 00:58:25.460
you know, when I request that list of zaps, it comes with,

628
00:58:27.255 --> 00:58:30.075
like, the the primal has, like, URLs

629
00:58:30.855 --> 00:58:31.355
for

630
00:58:31.655 --> 00:58:37.280
for images. So, like, it it the way Nostra works, if you got a list of events, right,

631
00:58:37.660 --> 00:58:39.280
and each of those has a profile,

632
00:58:40.380 --> 00:59:01.140
you you that query might come back with all those profiles, but all those profiles are gonna have those avatar image URLs, which are just hosted on a bunch of different places. Right? So now your client, like, you got a list of a 100 different profiles that you wanna display. Now your client is gonna have to hit up, like, a 100 different web servers for for a 100 different images,

633
00:59:01.600 --> 00:59:05.220
that might be, you know, not super well optimized and all sorts of things.

634
00:59:05.585 --> 00:59:21.005
It could be malicious in logging IPs even. Yeah. Yeah. So and and this this is not just something that, like, primal is fixing. You know? I think, I don't know, Stu, satellite dot earth, has been thinking a lot about this. Like, I in the ideal case, you know, you might

635
00:59:21.565 --> 00:59:23.825
individual users might run something similar

636
00:59:24.525 --> 00:59:26.704
to the primal caching servers

637
00:59:27.244 --> 00:59:31.970
just for themselves. Like, I want something like this that acts as a proxy

638
00:59:32.350 --> 00:59:33.570
and and and

639
00:59:34.190 --> 00:59:36.530
makes requests from my actual client

640
00:59:36.910 --> 00:59:40.130
much more optimized and more private and and

641
00:59:41.075 --> 00:59:42.935
and simpler in a lot of ways.

642
00:59:43.475 --> 00:59:46.055
So I'd love I'd love to see, you know,

643
00:59:46.595 --> 00:59:50.450
Steve's working on stuff like this where you you're you're self hosting kind of your own

644
00:59:51.410 --> 00:59:51.910
caching,

645
00:59:52.369 --> 00:59:53.510
relays and stuff.

646
00:59:54.609 --> 01:00:09.095
And so I'm I'm I'm excited to see things move that way because that that, you know, that super naive Noster client that just wakes up and starts asking a 1000000 different servers for stuff. It's just not it's not gonna ultimately result in the best UX.

647
01:00:09.619 --> 01:00:13.160
So we have pseudo Carlos in the in the chat, writer, Dietrich,

648
01:00:13.940 --> 01:00:14.440
saying

649
01:00:14.740 --> 01:00:19.785
that he thinks the privacy option for each payment should be more prominent. I would go even further than that,

650
01:00:21.045 --> 01:00:22.424
to submit another

651
01:00:22.964 --> 01:00:24.585
nonworking code issue.

652
01:00:25.660 --> 01:00:33.120
It'd be nice if, like, if I typed in Tony and I wanted to pay Tony, it should default to private. And then if I want it to be public,

653
01:00:33.615 --> 01:00:35.714
I can checkbox public it.

654
01:00:36.815 --> 01:00:44.180
It is it's default it defaults to private every time right now. Oh, nice. Or default. And then, yeah, there is a relatively subtle button.

655
01:00:46.000 --> 01:00:48.980
So private is just like, hey. The there's no master

656
01:00:49.360 --> 01:00:51.975
metadata being attached to this payment. You know? It's just,

657
01:00:53.015 --> 01:00:58.795
So if I search Tony and pay Tony, like, it's not publicly going to people's Zap feed. Right? Right. Then if you

658
01:00:59.370 --> 01:01:04.350
push that little it is pretty small button that says private, it goes to private Zap.

659
01:01:04.810 --> 01:01:13.285
So that is a payment to Tony where you can, like, include, like, you know, a zap message, and and it it it shows up for him as a as a zap.

660
01:01:14.559 --> 01:01:23.140
But that is still not going to people publicly. And then if you push that button one more time, it goes to public Zap. And that's when you're, you know, telling everybody.

661
01:01:23.715 --> 01:01:28.295
Well, the fact that we're having this conversation means the UX probably uses could use a little work, humble.

662
01:01:29.715 --> 01:01:30.830
Yeah. But yes.

663
01:01:31.390 --> 01:01:31.890
Absolutely.

664
01:01:32.590 --> 01:01:33.090
But

665
01:01:33.550 --> 01:01:34.590
but I would say,

666
01:01:35.150 --> 01:01:39.170
I don't know the obvious answer to, you know, making that button

667
01:01:39.635 --> 01:01:44.055
more prominent and yet not, like, you know Why not private Zap?

668
01:01:44.755 --> 01:01:48.055
Why why not just default to private Zap? What's the trade off there?

669
01:01:49.000 --> 01:01:49.820
I don't remember.

670
01:01:50.520 --> 01:01:59.155
And there's a I think we talked about wanting to to do that instead. But but there's there's even yeah. There's, like, add ons apps, private apps, public apps.

671
01:01:59.455 --> 01:02:04.995
It gets a little it gets a little Like, you may wanna send a payment to someone and not know you are the one who sent it.

672
01:02:06.320 --> 01:02:08.720
Right. Like, private and public. Like, people

673
01:02:10.720 --> 01:02:13.300
yeah. I think I think there is a use case for that.

674
01:02:15.905 --> 01:02:19.845
There is some, like, weird implication as well. Like, with private zaps, like,

675
01:02:20.305 --> 01:02:23.605
people can't see that I, you know, gave Paul a $100,

676
01:02:24.260 --> 01:02:27.720
but everyone can see that Paul received a $100 from someone.

677
01:02:28.340 --> 01:02:35.415
So it kind of, like, you know, you're kind of, like, flipping it where, like their payment kinda. They they were saying Yeah. So you don't

678
01:02:35.875 --> 01:02:38.135
So, yeah, if you're sending, like, you know, a $100,000,000,

679
01:02:38.595 --> 01:02:46.390
so now it's like, oh, that guy's rich. I need I need to go to his house to get money. I'll go hit him with a $15 wrench. Exactly.

680
01:02:48.610 --> 01:02:50.470
Okay. That makes sense. Tony,

681
01:02:50.835 --> 01:02:51.635
I I had,

682
01:02:53.475 --> 01:02:58.675
we've been talking a lot about Nostra here. I mean, I had the Nostra dev call a couple weeks ago,

683
01:02:59.300 --> 01:03:00.880
with Huddlbot and,

684
01:03:01.380 --> 01:03:01.880
Pablo,

685
01:03:04.020 --> 01:03:05.560
and Mike Mike Dilger.

686
01:03:07.915 --> 01:03:14.735
And you you were you felt a little bit there was a little bit of fence taken there. Do you have any comments that you you want to tell the freaks

687
01:03:15.115 --> 01:03:16.655
about that that rip?

688
01:03:18.859 --> 01:03:22.960
It went it was a good rip. I was listening to that during a long drive.

689
01:03:23.975 --> 01:03:27.095
And I think I think And yeah. I think my main issue is that

690
01:03:27.975 --> 01:03:28.475
yeah.

691
01:03:30.375 --> 01:03:32.155
Like, you know, the the concept model,

692
01:03:33.010 --> 01:03:35.750
it's interesting. I would I would suggest if if people haven't

693
01:03:36.290 --> 01:03:39.750
heard heard yet, go back and listen to that. It was it was good.

694
01:03:40.664 --> 01:03:44.045
And then there's this there's this thing that we built at Muni called blaster,

695
01:03:44.664 --> 01:03:45.645
which is, like

696
01:03:46.025 --> 01:03:48.940
it's it's compatible with with relays,

697
01:03:49.559 --> 01:04:02.535
but its whole purpose is you add it as a relay to your Nostra client, and then it will send the message out to, like, every single relay up to, like, 300 relays that are, like, online on Noster. So I guess it blasts the message out

698
01:04:02.994 --> 01:04:05.335
to to as many places as possible because

699
01:04:05.640 --> 01:04:06.380
I consider

700
01:04:06.760 --> 01:04:07.900
I consider Noster

701
01:04:08.520 --> 01:04:09.900
a broadcast network.

702
01:04:10.200 --> 01:04:11.800
It's really great at, like, discovering,

703
01:04:13.085 --> 01:04:17.025
things that have been broadcasted and is really good at sending things to be broadcasted.

704
01:04:18.765 --> 01:04:20.144
And that's how I see

705
01:04:20.650 --> 01:04:23.309
the best. Everyone has their own opinions. Everyone

706
01:04:23.849 --> 01:04:31.185
can, like, have I mean, you can have different opinions. You can have, like, different things that you would want to build on top of Noster. Like, oh, that's fine.

707
01:04:32.285 --> 01:04:32.785
But

708
01:04:33.245 --> 01:04:41.859
I think I think the things that I had problems with were just mostly some comments that were made throughout it that said, like, I didn't care about Noster and, like, my opinion doesn't matter.

709
01:04:43.359 --> 01:04:44.660
And so, like, if yeah.

710
01:04:45.595 --> 01:04:50.975
Not if if anyone just said that, like, it's fine. I don't care. But, like, to have some of these, like, prominent Noster people,

711
01:04:52.075 --> 01:04:52.575
consider,

712
01:04:53.035 --> 01:05:02.654
like, myself and and the mutiny team, like, not caring about Nostra. Like, we're building so much on on on on top of this and for the users and having this interoperability.

713
01:05:03.914 --> 01:05:05.855
Like, we're we're very much ends

714
01:05:06.394 --> 01:05:10.394
right now on on the success of Noster as well as as anyone else's. So,

715
01:05:11.450 --> 01:05:14.910
that was that was the main thing I wanna say, though. Like, the open protocol

716
01:05:15.370 --> 01:05:18.670
of Nostr is is like it's it's both

717
01:05:19.085 --> 01:05:34.080
a a great feature for users of Mutiny to have, just the fact that, like, they can take their identity anywhere else and things like that. But it's a great feature for a business. Just the fact that we can plug into this and, like, let's say let's say a war a more,

718
01:05:34.540 --> 01:05:35.760
you know, well capitalized

719
01:05:36.220 --> 01:05:43.215
company than than Mutiny, you know, pulls in, like, 100 of 1,000 to 1,000,000 of users, you know, that we can't pull in ourselves.

720
01:05:43.995 --> 01:05:49.000
But now all of a sudden we're interoperable with that. And and and now that we have,

721
01:05:50.260 --> 01:05:56.665
I don't think Paul mentioned it, but now that we have this, like, social feature, like, anyone that uses Mutiny and is not a Nostra user

722
01:05:56.965 --> 01:05:58.505
well, now they're a Nostra user.

723
01:05:59.045 --> 01:06:18.840
We, like, create an Nostra account for them if they don't already bring one in to the wall. You can import it, but if you don't bring one in, now you're an user. Now you can set a profile. You can set a lighting address. You can set, you know, your name and and other things like that. So now you're now we're starting to we haven't had this sort of support before. We were using Noster, but we weren't, like,

724
01:06:19.320 --> 01:06:21.260
adding to the social Noster

725
01:06:21.560 --> 01:06:22.060
profile,

726
01:06:22.600 --> 01:06:24.140
you know, part of Noster.

727
01:06:24.840 --> 01:06:37.465
But now with this latest feature, like, now anyone that comes in and likes MeetMe as a wallet, well, now they're a new Nasr user. Now they are interoperable with with Primal. They're interoperable with Amethyst and Domus, and they can send zaps back and forth.

728
01:06:38.309 --> 01:06:42.010
You know, we just kinda specialize in in just the payment activity.

729
01:06:43.270 --> 01:06:44.890
We we don't, like, show

730
01:06:46.275 --> 01:06:52.330
note fees, and I don't know if we want to get into that at all. I would prefer not to at least for a long time.

731
01:06:52.730 --> 01:06:57.710
But, you know, now we're contributing back to the Nostra ecosystem through the use of its profile

732
01:06:58.010 --> 01:06:58.510
feature.

733
01:06:59.130 --> 01:07:06.075
And I think I, you know, I think that's really valuable, and now we can contribute back and and kind of try our best to get more Bitcoiners

734
01:07:06.615 --> 01:07:14.670
using our wallet and then now using Oster. So, yeah, I mean, I I thought it was a great episode. I really enjoyed it. I just had had a few complaints about

735
01:07:15.050 --> 01:07:24.935
people just brushing off my opinions of of Noster and and the and the blaster thing we built and all of the other Noster features we built and kinda just saying we don't we don't care about Noster at all. I mean,

736
01:07:25.235 --> 01:07:26.135
first of all,

737
01:07:26.780 --> 01:07:33.520
I think you clearly care about Noster to the point where if there's probably a bunch of BlueCheck Bitcoiners listening to this rip

738
01:07:33.875 --> 01:07:36.295
that think we've talked about Nostar too much,

739
01:07:37.555 --> 01:07:38.055
already.

740
01:07:39.155 --> 01:07:41.315
Second of all, I wanted to mention that,

741
01:07:41.880 --> 01:07:45.820
Huddl bod, is in the live chat saying that he appreciates your work.

742
01:07:47.320 --> 01:07:48.965
I love that dude. He's a good dude.

743
01:07:49.605 --> 01:07:53.225
But I I definitely appreciate you guys. I mean, I think you guys are building,

744
01:07:55.205 --> 01:08:00.450
one of, you know, the most useful Bitcoin apps and one of the most useful Nostra apps,

745
01:08:01.230 --> 01:08:06.530
in existence right now. So thank you, guys. And I know I submit a lot of non code working issues.

746
01:08:07.225 --> 01:08:09.165
So thank you for dealing with me.

747
01:08:10.665 --> 01:08:12.205
And then last but not least,

748
01:08:12.905 --> 01:08:13.965
I'm kinda curious.

749
01:08:14.585 --> 01:08:15.405
So, like,

750
01:08:16.340 --> 01:08:21.480
well, first, I wanna talk about blaster a little bit. So, like, blaster is, like, this idea that, like, I put

751
01:08:22.260 --> 01:08:22.760
noster.mutinywallet.com

752
01:08:24.260 --> 01:08:28.345
in my relay list, and it just blasts my notes out to

753
01:08:29.045 --> 01:08:33.145
what how many relays? 300 the top 300 relays, or is it every relay?

754
01:08:35.929 --> 01:08:39.949
Top 300 that are currently on. Why why why do you stop at 300?

755
01:08:42.875 --> 01:08:51.890
Just from a cost perspective. And and at the time, there was kind of only, like, 3 hun like, there's a, I think, maybe a 1000 or 2. Like, most of them are offline.

756
01:08:52.990 --> 01:08:55.410
And yeah. At the time, I haven't checked lately.

757
01:08:57.025 --> 01:09:00.005
There's an API that we hit to to nostril.watch,

758
01:09:01.105 --> 01:09:04.804
to see who's online at the time. But, yeah, it's it's also cost perspective.

759
01:09:05.210 --> 01:09:11.070
Every 50 that we add to it adds a little bit more to the cost. But, you know, we we do all that, and we push,

760
01:09:11.450 --> 01:09:12.270
like, 25,000

761
01:09:13.445 --> 01:09:13.945
messages,

762
01:09:14.645 --> 01:09:16.185
a day through is,

763
01:09:16.565 --> 01:09:19.945
at one point, we at one point, we were doing a 100,000,

764
01:09:20.325 --> 01:09:29.030
but I think I think someone was just broadcasting all all monster events through us. So we just we we censored that IP address.

765
01:09:29.775 --> 01:09:34.835
We we yeah. I mean, we're we're we're I'm more of the perspective of, like, if an individual

766
01:09:35.215 --> 01:09:38.675
wants to volunteer in the broadcast, you know, notes that they

767
01:09:39.020 --> 01:09:46.885
see and the and the broadcast the notes that they make and get those to as much reach as possible, I'm all for that. I think I think, like, businesses

768
01:09:47.265 --> 01:10:00.239
you know, if it was the master people themselves, I don't know who it was. You know, I think they should I think they should either do it themselves or or I don't know. I kinda pay. I kinda look at it like I look at Federman. Like, I'm into Nostr for the censorship resistance,

769
01:10:00.784 --> 01:10:05.685
and, you know, I I hope that we have stuff like the outbox model and

770
01:10:06.065 --> 01:10:06.965
and and other

771
01:10:08.150 --> 01:10:10.410
iterative improvements that make Nostr

772
01:10:10.790 --> 01:10:21.114
more censorship resistant. But until then, like, blaster works today, so I'm gonna blast my notes out to every relay that will accept them. And and blaster makes it incredibly easy for me to do that,

773
01:10:21.735 --> 01:10:28.310
without directly broadcasting to all of them and potentially leaking IP addresses if my VPN fails or something like that.

774
01:10:30.050 --> 01:10:44.380
Exactly. And and and it's, you know, I say, like, from a cost perspective, we don't wanna just, like, bubble up into into, like, you know, thousands of relays. But, like, you know and, like, it has only costed us, like, 50, $60 a month for the past year in doing 25,000

775
01:10:44.760 --> 01:10:49.065
a day. So, like, it's not even that as much, but I just don't wanna keep, like,

776
01:10:49.545 --> 01:10:50.605
300 is fine.

777
01:10:52.665 --> 01:11:04.835
You know, if if we really need to get into more, we can. I'm happy to blast more if that's what people want. We have Kieran in the chat, by the way. He's the maintainer of, ZapStream. Thank you, Kieran, for your work.

778
01:11:05.475 --> 01:11:15.790
I mean I mean, that's the thing. Like, some people wanted it to die since day 1. Like, we've been operating it for, like, over a year at this point, and not a single person has asked me to stop.

779
01:11:16.970 --> 01:11:27.375
No. Like, I'm being honest. Like, not a single person said stop doing What I was gonna say is regardless of blaster, I broadcast to Cure and Relay just because I like ZapStream, and I wanna make sure it works correctly.

780
01:11:30.155 --> 01:11:36.590
Yeah. But, yeah, that's the thing. I don't think anyone, like, will want to ask me to stop. I think I think I think they

781
01:11:37.290 --> 01:11:40.350
also feel that it's a thing that they can't stop

782
01:11:41.585 --> 01:11:46.005
as well, or if they try to stop, they would have some consequences of that.

783
01:11:46.625 --> 01:11:50.440
So it's just like a thing that, like you know, I think it's a protocol that is great for

784
01:11:59.905 --> 01:12:10.840
can close down things and create your community on top of it. I think client selection stuff needs to be a lot better if that's the goal, and I think you can make your own client that specializes in communities.

785
01:12:11.940 --> 01:12:18.355
But I think Noster as it is right now is a broadcast assistant. That's what Hotabot was Hotabot is doing with the core goal.

786
01:12:18.675 --> 01:12:24.215
Yeah. No. I think that's a great idea. I mean, I think I'd I'm not trying to, you know, I'm not trying to

787
01:12:24.755 --> 01:12:27.830
say don't do that. Like, I think it's a great idea. But, like, you know,

788
01:12:28.310 --> 01:12:30.970
you can build it on top of it, but, like, Nostra is

789
01:12:31.430 --> 01:12:34.010
a cyst an open protocol system itself.

790
01:12:34.950 --> 01:12:36.570
If you've run any open relay,

791
01:12:37.015 --> 01:12:37.755
you're participating

792
01:12:38.135 --> 01:12:45.675
in this broadcast public broadcast system. And so if you have any problems with that, you need to close down your relay

793
01:12:46.510 --> 01:12:51.090
to either, like, shut it down completely or just, like, close it off to just, like, a community.

794
01:12:51.470 --> 01:12:53.810
If Blaster didn't exist, I would just broadcast

795
01:12:54.515 --> 01:12:56.375
directly to a shit ton of relays.

796
01:12:58.114 --> 01:12:58.614
No.

797
01:12:59.074 --> 01:13:03.150
Or or create your own software to do it. Well, or ask you to. But yeah.

798
01:13:04.030 --> 01:13:04.530
Yeah.

799
01:13:05.070 --> 01:13:09.409
I also want the record to show that I invited Tony onto that rip, and he, declined.

800
01:13:10.670 --> 01:13:12.915
Oh, wow. Wow. Yeah.

801
01:13:13.295 --> 01:13:13.954
I was

802
01:13:14.895 --> 01:13:17.474
I was I think I was, like, moving in that day.

803
01:13:17.855 --> 01:13:21.680
But the important thing is the invite was made. And then last but not least, Tony,

804
01:13:22.320 --> 01:13:25.140
following that rip, you said you were gonna integrate Twitter into

805
01:13:25.520 --> 01:13:27.840
Unity Wallet. Are you actually gonna do that? Or

806
01:13:29.120 --> 01:13:30.020
Just a minute.

807
01:13:30.784 --> 01:13:35.525
That was that was a side handed note that maybe one day we actually do.

808
01:13:37.185 --> 01:13:42.100
I mean okay. Let's talk about that for a second. Let's talk about it for a second because I think I think it's really interesting. Like, imagine

809
01:13:42.400 --> 01:13:45.220
imagine this. Like, imagine if we were through the DMs.

810
01:13:45.760 --> 01:13:52.474
You know? Like, we we let's say we just paid for the API access, and we just, like, you know, bow down to Elon for a moment.

811
01:13:53.415 --> 01:14:00.920
But just the idea that, like, okay. Now we can we were already plugged into a a system where there's potentially, like, a 100,000 or so users

812
01:14:01.460 --> 01:14:05.079
or, yeah, maybe 50 to a 100000 users to have set lighting addresses

813
01:14:05.625 --> 01:14:17.070
on Noster. So, like, all of a sudden, we plug into that. But now, like, all of a sudden, we plug into a system where there's, like, millions of people with, like that could either have a Lightning address in their bio, or we can just send e cash to them in a DM.

814
01:14:18.270 --> 01:14:30.435
Like, you know, at the end of the day, we're trying to pay people, and where are the most amount of people? I think that's I think that's on Twitter. So and and if you use MuniWad or or sign up to redeem the e cash,

815
01:14:30.895 --> 01:14:35.190
then all of a sudden, like, now you have an Oster account. And, like, and there was already, like, a

816
01:14:35.890 --> 01:14:37.030
a a website

817
01:14:37.810 --> 01:14:42.150
a year ago. I haven't seen it be used in quite a while or suggested in quite a while.

818
01:14:42.450 --> 01:14:43.750
I think it's dead now.

819
01:14:44.335 --> 01:14:58.690
Yeah. But there was a yeah. I think the API is closed off anyways and it died. But let's say you do pay for the APIs where you can just do that, or now you can link Twitter accounts and Nasr accounts and make this Discover around Nasr a whole lot better. And now the interoperability between the 2

820
01:14:59.570 --> 01:15:01.030
Yeah. I'm not against it.

821
01:15:01.495 --> 01:15:05.514
Of course, the issue is that Elon could just shut it down immediate whenever he wants.

822
01:15:06.775 --> 01:15:10.955
Right. Yeah. You know, of course, like, a prices. Price the prices on the.

823
01:15:12.840 --> 01:15:14.940
Week. Yeah. I mean, you should add TikTok integration,

824
01:15:15.400 --> 01:15:16.620
Instagram, Facebook,

825
01:15:17.000 --> 01:15:17.500
Twitter,

826
01:15:18.040 --> 01:15:26.925
LinkedIn. Why stop it? But I mean, if you think about it The key is that they can all get blocked at at Facebook was was, like, the portable social graph.

827
01:15:27.380 --> 01:15:35.080
I I feel like that's a lot of my friends on Venmo, well, back when I used Venmo, was I think I did, like, a a Facebook import.

828
01:15:35.635 --> 01:15:40.055
I love how, like, I'll be on some random device and I'll get like a calendar notification

829
01:15:40.995 --> 01:15:41.735
from, like,

830
01:15:42.035 --> 01:15:44.935
somebody I knew 20 years ago. And it's all because

831
01:15:45.300 --> 01:15:48.840
at some point I integrated something with Facebook and

832
01:15:49.300 --> 01:15:51.159
that birthday info became viral.

833
01:15:52.535 --> 01:15:53.035
But,

834
01:15:53.575 --> 01:16:03.949
Yeah, I do think there's, there's so much there too. I mean, it's, it ultimately, it's just, what are we trying to do? Like, we want, we want good money and we wanna be able to send and receive

835
01:16:04.250 --> 01:16:04.989
that money.

836
01:16:05.369 --> 01:16:08.510
And so to, to, to people and to businesses.

837
01:16:08.810 --> 01:16:09.630
And so,

838
01:16:10.364 --> 01:16:11.105
and, and

839
01:16:11.565 --> 01:16:14.385
the, the problem is, is so many people

840
01:16:14.764 --> 01:16:15.425
try to

841
01:16:16.364 --> 01:16:20.500
stop us from doing those things. And so we have to have these very

842
01:16:20.800 --> 01:16:21.300
decentralized

843
01:16:22.320 --> 01:16:23.460
cypherpunk technologies

844
01:16:23.760 --> 01:16:24.820
that are unruggable.

845
01:16:26.065 --> 01:16:27.925
But when we can, you know,

846
01:16:28.385 --> 01:16:32.725
when we are allowed into spaces, I don't think we should be, you know, afraid of them.

847
01:16:34.500 --> 01:16:37.800
Big community fans are big big fans of asking for permission.

848
01:16:40.485 --> 01:16:47.705
The I I I think it's important to call out on the audio stream here that I responded in the word actually uses blaster. Don't shut it down.

849
01:16:50.720 --> 01:16:56.820
Kieran knows that I will read any of his comments regardless of zaps being attached to them because I appreciate him so much.

850
01:16:57.735 --> 01:16:59.915
He didn't include any stats with that comment.

851
01:17:03.015 --> 01:17:06.635
This has been fantastic. Wait. Do you guys have anything else you wanna cover

852
01:17:07.510 --> 01:17:08.490
while I have you?

853
01:17:13.510 --> 01:17:14.250
I think

854
01:17:15.804 --> 01:17:19.344
the the lightning is the, the lightning address stuff we just launched.

855
01:17:20.205 --> 01:17:23.824
Yeah. That's badass. So I have to be a subscriber to get it. Right? It's it's an atmunity.plus,

856
01:17:26.030 --> 01:17:26.930
lightning address?

857
01:17:27.630 --> 01:17:28.450
Yeah. Exactly.

858
01:17:29.550 --> 01:17:31.490
Can we talk about subscription payments?

859
01:17:32.510 --> 01:17:34.225
Yeah. Yeah. We can do that as well.

860
01:17:35.665 --> 01:17:41.845
Because I I brought it up to Pierre on the Phoenix rep last week, and he made me feel like I was a crazy person.

861
01:17:45.240 --> 01:17:47.420
It's true. I haven't listened to him on this.

862
01:17:47.880 --> 01:17:53.635
How how are you crazy? Well, he's not paying attention to Nastr. They don't really care about Noster. And,

863
01:17:54.114 --> 01:17:56.534
they're, like, full force ahead on bolt 12.

864
01:17:59.315 --> 01:18:08.480
And he doesn't think, like I I mean, I don't wanna put words in his mouth. Like, people can listen to the rip last week, but I I it doesn't seem like NWC is a priority and, like, how you guys implemented

865
01:18:08.940 --> 01:18:10.320
subscriptions through NWC.

866
01:18:11.094 --> 01:18:17.594
And then maybe part of the issue was me explaining it. So I will take some responsibility there.

867
01:18:17.950 --> 01:18:26.850
I think the the main advantage is, like, bolt 12 has been talked about for, like, 4 years, it feels like now. And, like, we implemented NWC in about 2 hours.

868
01:18:27.385 --> 01:18:31.005
So, like, you know, we can do subscriptions with NWC.

869
01:18:31.545 --> 01:18:33.724
We've been doing them for the last year versus,

870
01:18:34.380 --> 01:18:41.840
you know, both 12 still doesn't exist, at least in production yet. So it's like, you know Yeah. But if anyone can force it through, it's async and Phoenix.

871
01:18:42.700 --> 01:18:43.340
Right. How

872
01:18:44.065 --> 01:19:03.915
For them, but, like, you know, 90% of lightning nodes are l and d, which are, you know, not getting bolt 12 for, like, multiple years. So, like, sure, you could subscribe to async, but like, if I want to subscribe to bit refill or the Bitcoin company who like, they run LND nodes, it's like, Okay, I can't subscribe to them. And they have to change their entire infrastructure to support that. So let's talk about how NWC

873
01:19:04.695 --> 01:19:05.755
subscriptions work.

874
01:19:06.615 --> 01:19:09.755
And NWC is like basically just you're basically over

875
01:19:10.200 --> 01:19:13.420
an Oster DM sending an invoice saying, like, please pay this.

876
01:19:13.960 --> 01:19:26.505
And, then the wallet can implement any kind of logics, like a mutiny. We have either, like, we have 2 modes. One's, like, auto approve with a budget. So, like, as long as this payment this invoice isn't within my budget, I'll pay it automatically.

877
01:19:27.159 --> 01:19:31.179
Otherwise, there's, like, the click to approve where every single invoice shows up as request,

878
01:19:31.480 --> 01:19:33.260
and you can approve or deny it manually.

879
01:19:33.960 --> 01:19:36.825
And, so basically, like, for subscriptions, we just, you know,

880
01:19:37.305 --> 01:19:45.485
at, you know, whatever the the days, like, your subscription lapses, we just send you an invoice of, like, hey, pay this for your next, you know, month of mutiny plus.

881
01:19:46.080 --> 01:19:59.685
And then you're also configured to pay it however you want. And, like feels like a pull payment, like a credit card pull payment, but it's really a push payment. Right? It's like your client when your client comes online, it's actually pushing the payment. It's just getting the request, the invoice through Nasr.

882
01:20:00.065 --> 01:20:11.855
Yeah. If you if you sign up for Mutiny Plus, it will create one of these wallet connections, which what we call the our NWC connections. And so those are it's like a list of, you know, outstanding NWCs,

883
01:20:12.315 --> 01:20:15.135
like, that that your wallet will recognize,

884
01:20:15.594 --> 01:20:20.360
but then you also have the option to to hit the checkbox for autopay.

885
01:20:21.860 --> 01:20:22.840
So so

886
01:20:23.220 --> 01:20:31.045
but you are, like, always in control. It is not in fact a a poll payment, but it is a it is a client still needs to come online to

887
01:20:31.825 --> 01:20:37.720
push the payment. Yep. And and speaking of with bolt 12, I don't know exactly how this would work with Phoenix

888
01:20:38.980 --> 01:20:43.880
because if your your note isn't online because your phone isn't, you know, open,

889
01:20:44.435 --> 01:20:58.430
you know, is it going to see the the the the bolt 12 payment request? Yeah. Because they're they are the only ones who have implemented trampoline, and the LSP has trampoline and so does the client. So Well well, even regard this,

890
01:20:59.050 --> 01:21:04.125
Bolt 12 for for this specific case will solve will help solve receiving

891
01:21:04.985 --> 01:21:09.804
into the wall. This is this is bolt 12 isn't something that's gonna help, like, subscription payments.

892
01:21:10.264 --> 01:21:11.485
That doesn't do anything

893
01:21:12.040 --> 01:21:19.500
as far as that goes. So, like, it's not even, there's not even a comparison there. Like No. It handles, like, the Noster address book instead of having, like,

894
01:21:20.130 --> 01:21:22.855
attach an M pub attached to a lightning address.

895
01:21:23.155 --> 01:21:29.290
Right? You just have, bolt 12 attached to your contact book. Like a stat this instead of a lightning address.

896
01:21:30.410 --> 01:21:37.070
Yeah. Yeah. There's the lightning address thing for but that's received. So, like, Nasir Wallet Connect, this is a

897
01:21:37.610 --> 01:21:38.110
payment

898
01:21:38.895 --> 01:21:42.034
request solution. This isn't like a payment receiving.

899
01:21:42.495 --> 01:21:45.795
Like, he would an invoice. You're sending an invoice through Nasr,

900
01:21:46.570 --> 01:21:47.070
automatically.

901
01:21:47.610 --> 01:21:57.245
And It's for for the wallet to pay. If you wanted to connect your Phoenix wallet to a Noster client, you you would want, yeah, some way to give

902
01:21:58.265 --> 01:21:59.965
invoices to that wallet,

903
01:22:00.585 --> 01:22:01.085
asynchronously

904
01:22:01.625 --> 01:22:05.369
so that when you open the wallet, it it can choose to pay them.

905
01:22:08.310 --> 01:22:08.810
Awesome.

906
01:22:09.590 --> 01:22:11.929
Do you guys see Kieran's comments

907
01:22:13.045 --> 01:22:14.085
about trying to,

908
01:22:14.565 --> 01:22:17.465
get his lightning address set up? How did we we scam him?

909
01:22:18.645 --> 01:22:20.585
I don't know. Make sure make sure you're

910
01:22:21.160 --> 01:22:24.060
make sure you're on the recent version, 0.6.3.

911
01:22:25.640 --> 01:22:27.420
It should just be in

912
01:22:28.199 --> 01:22:30.380
your, like, profile settings.

913
01:22:32.905 --> 01:22:33.405
Karen,

914
01:22:33.865 --> 01:22:35.405
this is not a support line.

915
01:22:36.505 --> 01:22:40.045
Just just for a little clarity for how mutiny plus works,

916
01:22:41.130 --> 01:22:41.630
if

917
01:22:42.409 --> 01:22:44.409
because iOS doesn't allow

918
01:22:44.730 --> 01:22:49.390
you know, you can't do, like, you know, you know, like, you can't pay for an Audible subscription

919
01:22:50.725 --> 01:22:51.225
in,

920
01:22:52.245 --> 01:22:58.559
you can't pay for, like, digital products, especially the digital feature of the apps inside of an Apple app,

921
01:22:59.020 --> 01:23:04.480
instead of an iOS app. And so if you have the iOS app, you can just go to

922
01:23:05.685 --> 01:23:06.185
plus.mutiewalt,

923
01:23:06.885 --> 01:23:07.864
or what was it?

924
01:23:08.244 --> 01:23:09.704
Meet me dot plus or whatever,

925
01:23:10.085 --> 01:23:11.545
or plus. What is the domain?

926
01:23:12.085 --> 01:23:14.425
Meet me dot plus. You go to meet me dot plus,

927
01:23:15.030 --> 01:23:18.950
and there's a QR you can scan, and you'll get to, like, the secret page where you can,

928
01:23:19.990 --> 01:23:20.310
pay for

929
01:23:21.190 --> 01:23:23.195
yeah. Pay for MeetMe Plus.

930
01:23:24.155 --> 01:23:41.639
And then after that, then you go to your profile or at the bottom of that page, there should be a create an address button, or you can go to your profile page, and there should be an option to So you can go to the iOS and go to your profile page? If you've joined the Federation. So you'll need to join the Federation, and then you'll get the option to

931
01:23:43.125 --> 01:23:47.785
create an address. Yeah. Yeah. I think we're answering, and he went af AFK. He's not even listening.

932
01:23:48.165 --> 01:23:49.545
I know. Yeah. But

933
01:23:50.330 --> 01:23:52.830
but yeah. I mean, on that on that topic,

934
01:23:53.929 --> 01:23:56.110
lightning address in general, the the way

935
01:23:56.489 --> 01:23:58.670
like, doing lightning address in a noncustodial

936
01:23:59.369 --> 01:24:02.495
setting is very difficult, especially for mobile wallets.

937
01:24:03.435 --> 01:24:05.775
It's why we haven't really seen it from

938
01:24:06.235 --> 01:24:12.480
from Breeze or Phoenix for 1. Zeus has it. From Zeus and you banned them. You wanna talk about that? Yeah.

939
01:24:12.940 --> 01:24:14.880
Yeah. Well, so this is the problem

940
01:24:15.340 --> 01:24:16.800
with you. There's a choice.

941
01:24:18.665 --> 01:24:28.100
Yeah. There's a problem with the way I mean, this is the problem with self custodial lighting addresses and the mobile context is you're not online to finish the payment.

942
01:24:28.480 --> 01:24:30.020
So payments get stuck.

943
01:24:30.400 --> 01:24:33.540
Those get stuck across the whole entire Lightning Network.

944
01:24:34.545 --> 01:24:37.125
Channels close as a result of it.

945
01:24:37.985 --> 01:24:41.685
It especially hurts if you're a mobile user paying

946
01:24:42.460 --> 01:24:44.960
to a Zeus address user because

947
01:24:45.580 --> 01:25:01.330
you might not come back online to finish the failure part of the payment, and then your channel as a mutant user gets closed. So those have caused, like, too many problems for for mutiny, for mutiny users, for other wallet devs, for other routing nodes on the network.

948
01:25:02.670 --> 01:25:06.450
And, you know, I think I think Blix has a similar solution as well.

949
01:25:07.205 --> 01:25:12.745
The way we wanted to go about it is, like, using Fediment for federated addresses.

950
01:25:13.125 --> 01:25:13.765
So instead of,

951
01:25:14.970 --> 01:25:23.710
a single custodian being, like instead of going this way where you just hold payments forever, instead of and then the other end of the spectrum is that you just have a custodian

952
01:25:24.135 --> 01:25:27.435
for your Lightning address. We see that a lot with people with, well, it's associates

953
01:25:27.735 --> 01:25:29.115
or get Alibi addresses.

954
01:25:30.695 --> 01:25:32.155
So that's the other end of the spectrum.

955
01:25:32.500 --> 01:25:35.000
Or Yeah. Primal as well with with strike.

956
01:25:35.460 --> 01:25:36.520
The middle ground

957
01:25:36.980 --> 01:25:39.719
is using a federation for it where, like, not a single

958
01:25:40.445 --> 01:25:41.745
party could take the funds.

959
01:25:42.125 --> 01:25:45.805
And with the way we do it has been heavily inspired by,

960
01:25:46.365 --> 01:25:57.719
I think it's the MiniBits people or or just the the Ecash address people. I I I forget if they're the same people, but there's they've been experiment like, they can move really they're moving really fast when it comes to Ecash innovation,

961
01:25:58.525 --> 01:26:01.824
because a lot of Fediment is working on just the federated protocol

962
01:26:02.284 --> 01:26:02.945
as well.

963
01:26:03.565 --> 01:26:07.425
So, like, e cash has has had this concept for a few months now,

964
01:26:08.060 --> 01:26:12.160
ECash locked to your nostril pub key. So that that inspired

965
01:26:12.620 --> 01:26:17.034
Cody Lowe and then us to to come in and and build a solution

966
01:26:17.494 --> 01:26:20.474
like that, but on on top of Fedimint. So whenever you

967
01:26:20.775 --> 01:26:26.160
whenever you create a Fedimint address, sorry, a Lightning add address immunity that's backed by a federation,

968
01:26:26.860 --> 01:26:29.280
but not only that, is it's your

969
01:26:29.820 --> 01:26:41.620
your e cache is locked to your public key. So when you come back online, only you can sweep the funds and and redeem it into your own Fedimint or to your own Lightning

970
01:26:42.320 --> 01:26:43.940
that's to your own Lightning node.

971
01:26:44.400 --> 01:26:47.940
So it's this kind of middle ground where, like, even the Lightning address server

972
01:26:48.565 --> 01:26:50.745
can't steal your funds after,

973
01:26:52.005 --> 01:26:56.665
because it's it's it's settled. The Lightning payment is settled directly into

974
01:26:57.280 --> 01:26:58.660
pubkey locked ecash.

975
01:26:59.040 --> 01:27:05.220
So even after that happens, the Lightning address server, like, DMs you on Nasr, here is your ecash information.

976
01:27:06.955 --> 01:27:12.815
The worst they can do is just stop doing that and not redeeming the funds, but they can't they can't ever steal the funds.

977
01:27:13.355 --> 01:27:15.295
They can stop you from getting paid.

978
01:27:16.280 --> 01:27:22.300
Right. Exactly. They can yeah. It can either shut down or they've not send the DM or something like that, but they can't steal the funds.

979
01:27:22.680 --> 01:27:27.804
So, you know, it's it's it's still trusted, but it's, like, you know, not custodial on that regard.

980
01:27:28.105 --> 01:27:29.725
Am I correct that you get

981
01:27:30.665 --> 01:27:34.045
it's it's if you get paid via the lightning address versus,

982
01:27:35.660 --> 01:27:38.240
like, sending an invoice, is it worse privacy?

983
01:27:41.100 --> 01:27:50.455
Like, do you When? Okay. No. The landing address server can spy on your payment receipts. Right? Obviously, it knows. I mean, they'll know they'll know what you've received,

984
01:27:51.360 --> 01:27:59.300
but here's the cool thing. And, like, very few people will probably appreciate this, but the way we've gone about lightning address names too,

985
01:28:00.385 --> 01:28:03.764
we we we use the same e cash technology for lightning

986
01:28:04.065 --> 01:28:04.885
name registration.

987
01:28:05.505 --> 01:28:08.165
So we we do what's called, like, blinded authentication

988
01:28:08.630 --> 01:28:10.090
for Lightning address registration.

989
01:28:10.630 --> 01:28:14.570
So, basically, what that means is when you're a mutiny plus user,

990
01:28:14.949 --> 01:28:17.050
you get these blinded tokens

991
01:28:17.745 --> 01:28:20.965
that allow you to use one of them to redeem

992
01:28:21.344 --> 01:28:27.989
a lightning address name. And so you reserve the name. You register it registers a pub key from the wallet,

993
01:28:28.769 --> 01:28:30.550
that the e cash is locked to.

994
01:28:30.929 --> 01:28:34.630
And from there, there's, like, no way we can correlate,

995
01:28:35.705 --> 01:28:38.764
any of your wallet information from your landing address.

996
01:28:40.025 --> 01:28:43.085
So, like, at that way, it's kinda separate. So we know

997
01:28:43.460 --> 01:28:54.015
we will know your your this random name is getting a bunch of sats and but we don't know anything about the user. We don't know who they are at the end of the day besides, like, okay. If it's Odell

998
01:28:54.875 --> 01:29:02.060
if it's Odell at, you know, mutiny dot plus, then we it might be you or might be someone that took that name first. We don't know.

999
01:29:02.620 --> 01:29:13.555
But we don't know anything about the underlying wallet. We don't know, like, their SaaS. We don't like, everything we build is so it's the most private as possible and that that go and so from there, like, we wanna use the same tech

1000
01:29:13.935 --> 01:29:25.590
to do support tickets. So if you make a support ticket, we don't know anything about you, your wallet, or anything else. You can and and we don't know anything about your previous support ticket. There's just a random support ticket that we know

1001
01:29:25.969 --> 01:29:31.155
that the user has, like, either paid for or been a plus user and they get a few for free,

1002
01:29:31.695 --> 01:29:46.775
something like that. So, like, this tech can be used to, like, basically, all we all we care about is, like, have they paid. We don't care about who they are, what they do. In fact, like, the more information we know, the worse the user is off, the worse we are off because now we have more information to protect.

1003
01:29:47.635 --> 01:29:50.855
So the least amount that we know is better for everyone all around.

1004
01:29:51.430 --> 01:29:54.490
And and we kind of started building this blinded authentication

1005
01:29:55.030 --> 01:29:57.610
registration stuff to kind of, you know,

1006
01:29:58.310 --> 01:29:59.690
build towards that direction.

1007
01:30:01.655 --> 01:30:02.395
That's awesome.

1008
01:30:04.375 --> 01:30:05.835
Do you wanna talk about

1009
01:30:07.770 --> 01:30:09.630
the issues with Zeus' implementation

1010
01:30:10.010 --> 01:30:10.910
as you feel

1011
01:30:11.370 --> 01:30:14.270
and why, like, why you have it blocked? I mean,

1012
01:30:14.650 --> 01:30:26.025
am I correct that okay. Go on. But let's talk about that. I thought I thought we were yeah. I thought I thought explain it. It it it just locks lightning payments. Anything that locks lightning payments for a long period of time

1013
01:30:26.680 --> 01:30:29.980
is is harmful for the network. It causes forced closures.

1014
01:30:30.680 --> 01:30:35.980
We just did it for zaps. We we mostly just did it for zaps, and you can turn that off if you wanted to.

1015
01:30:36.505 --> 01:30:47.300
The thing with zaps is, like, people were zapping, like, 21 sats or something like that to others and then going offline, and those payments were getting stuck and causing forced closure. And, like, you know, at first,

1016
01:30:47.760 --> 01:30:50.340
it's so funny. Like, one user, when we made that announcement,

1017
01:30:51.305 --> 01:31:05.900
he was like, what the fuck? This is not okay. I can't believe you're censoring. And then, like, 5 minutes later, he was like, oh, I just checked the wallet and my channel closed. I just like the future. And, you know, it's it's like, you know, it's not it's not you know, we might disagree with the approach.

1018
01:31:07.094 --> 01:31:19.579
I don't think it works very well for our wallet, but, you know, it's yeah. We'll we'll allow it if people wanna turn that off. Well, so if they're paying for Infini Mint, does it it's still it doesn't have that problem anymore, or does it still have that problem?

1019
01:31:20.119 --> 01:31:22.995
Yeah. So no forced closes on on Fedimint,

1020
01:31:23.614 --> 01:31:29.315
which is which is great. So the way we rolled out this Fedimint integration, there was some confusion about,

1021
01:31:30.130 --> 01:31:51.440
you know, some people at a Fannie Mae that have been a mutiny user for a long time. So, like, the first question they ask is, like, cool. I added a Fannie Mae. How do I how do I receive to it? How do I send from it? How do I, like, swap and all this stuff? And the whole point of it is that you have the Fannie Mae and especially if you have a lightning channel too and it's a hybrid mode, it just should make the best decisions for you based on the context. So it's like if you receive

1022
01:31:52.300 --> 01:31:54.800
yeah. If you create an invoice for under 200,000

1023
01:31:55.260 --> 01:32:07.460
sats, that just goes to the Fedimip first. And then you can decide when you wanna open a channel with it. We don't make we make no decisions for you on that. Like, you're you're in control of your funds. It's just, like, by default, under 200 k goes in the Fedimip.

1024
01:32:08.480 --> 01:32:08.980
Spending,

1025
01:32:09.440 --> 01:32:15.114
you know, we spend from the Fedimip first. Right? Like, you should have you know, we kinda look it as a middle ground. Like, you should

1026
01:32:15.495 --> 01:32:25.489
you should spend your hot wallet sats first and keep your cold storage sats, like, protected. The same applies in this scenario. You should keep your Fedimint sats. You should let those go first,

1027
01:32:25.949 --> 01:32:29.010
and you should hold, you know, this sort of self custodial lightning

1028
01:32:29.325 --> 01:32:48.565
balance as much as you can. So we spend from the Fedimint First if there's a balance available and then fall back to, like, the the lightning channel if there's funds on there. The cool thing is that, like, spending for the Fedimint first, you know, all those, like, 20 set payments that might not complete that you go offline for, well, that's actually okay now. You can go offline.

1029
01:32:48.945 --> 01:32:50.085
When you come back online,

1030
01:32:50.705 --> 01:32:55.860
you can settle the the e cash settlement, like, when they come online. Like, it's not a problem at all.

1031
01:32:57.219 --> 01:32:59.320
So there's no force closure concerns there.

1032
01:32:59.940 --> 01:33:02.360
You can go offline and come back online later.

1033
01:33:03.955 --> 01:33:05.975
Yeah. So I I just think it's,

1034
01:33:06.595 --> 01:33:11.770
yeah, kind of a kind of it solves a lot of pain points from channel closes unexpectedly

1035
01:33:12.150 --> 01:33:13.370
for just tiny payments.

1036
01:33:14.230 --> 01:33:19.050
It would probably be able to pay SUSPay users a little easier because they won't have that problem.

1037
01:33:21.985 --> 01:33:26.724
And, yeah, no. I think I think that covers everything from that perspective. Fucking love the hybrid model.

1038
01:33:27.320 --> 01:33:27.820
Mhmm.

1039
01:33:28.520 --> 01:33:33.420
Some people have wanted, like, to make it configurable. I think I think that's reasonable in the setting somewhere.

1040
01:33:33.960 --> 01:33:36.540
I felt like 200 is, like, a good starting point.

1041
01:33:37.145 --> 01:33:45.965
There's a certain point where, like, if you're putting if you're putting millions, you know, millions and millions of sats in the Unity Wall, like, we're optimizing for being a hot wall, spinning wall at first.

1042
01:33:46.350 --> 01:33:47.810
So, like, at a certain point,

1043
01:33:48.350 --> 01:33:50.850
you should just, like, get those sets off.

1044
01:33:51.470 --> 01:33:58.755
I know I know it's, like, a priorities thing, but, like, maybe, like, in 6 months, a year, or something, like, maybe the flow is

1045
01:33:59.055 --> 01:34:02.915
is that there's, like you know, like, Android, you can go into developer mode?

1046
01:34:03.520 --> 01:34:08.500
Like, maybe it's, you know, you go into advanced settings and you switch to

1047
01:34:08.960 --> 01:34:14.195
advanced mode or something, and then the interface is a little bit different for, like, advanced users.

1048
01:34:16.815 --> 01:34:22.594
May maybe that's the play. But, I mean, I'm not saying that this should be a priority in terms of development. But

1049
01:34:22.930 --> 01:34:28.070
at some point, you know, you add all these nice polish features, and then you wanna give

1050
01:34:29.730 --> 01:34:30.630
rolling. Maybe

1051
01:34:31.465 --> 01:34:33.485
they're they add advanced mode.

1052
01:34:35.225 --> 01:34:37.325
Yeah. That is definitely the UX

1053
01:34:37.785 --> 01:34:44.820
trade off over and over is if you give more choices to people because you want to empower them to have, you know, more control,

1054
01:34:45.520 --> 01:34:47.380
you confuse other people.

1055
01:34:49.085 --> 01:34:49.585
Yeah.

1056
01:34:50.125 --> 01:34:53.745
Yeah. My hope is we could just have, like, payment only mode,

1057
01:34:55.240 --> 01:34:59.580
like, hybrid mode, like, which kind of exists now. And then, like, a third mode that's, like,

1058
01:35:00.200 --> 01:35:15.620
hybrid, but prefer self custody where, like, any stats in your feminine are just auto sweeps to self custodial. So you can still have so you can still have, like, all the nice features, but then, like, the second you come online, it's left to your self custodial, so you don't have to, like, have that trust when you don't need it.

1059
01:35:16.000 --> 01:35:20.745
You know, and, like, that wouldn't be too too hard to build. It's just, you know, priorities and stuff like you said. But,

1060
01:35:21.385 --> 01:35:24.045
something like that would be fun where it's like we can just kind of, like,

1061
01:35:24.345 --> 01:35:27.645
kind of have all these cases, which is like a mode selector or something.

1062
01:35:29.699 --> 01:35:38.425
Oh, the the cool one, we were talking about NWC and, you know, some of this stuff. The cool one is, like, we're thinking about some like a Fediment based module

1063
01:35:38.965 --> 01:35:52.320
that you know, one of the problems with Nasir Wallet Connect is, like, yeah, if you're a mutant user, you do have to come back online for those payments to go through. Even if it's on auto approve, you still have to come online and those payments will be auto approved, but you have to be online.

1064
01:35:53.195 --> 01:35:57.454
You know, we might be able to do something with, like, a FEDIMIP module where you can, like, prefund,

1065
01:35:57.755 --> 01:35:59.775
let's say, like, 10 k sats that,

1066
01:36:00.910 --> 01:36:03.090
you know, whatever your budget is, you can prefund

1067
01:36:03.710 --> 01:36:06.290
it and Nostra not because Nostra

1068
01:36:06.590 --> 01:36:10.290
because of the Fannie Mae could use the same keys as Nostra and it's all distributed,

1069
01:36:10.785 --> 01:36:11.525
like those

1070
01:36:12.065 --> 01:36:15.125
you could have pub key locked, e cash to the federation,

1071
01:36:15.505 --> 01:36:24.389
or when Noster WalletConnect messages come in, then the guardians will, like, decide whether or not to fulfill those lightning invoices. So you could have, like, a federated

1072
01:36:24.690 --> 01:36:26.869
offline Nasrbot Connect module,

1073
01:36:27.489 --> 01:36:39.110
where now all of a sudden your NosterWall Connect messages are actually, you know, going to the federation, and those are being paid for while you're actually offline. And so, like, we can facilitate sort of, like, offline payments that way

1074
01:36:39.570 --> 01:36:51.595
for the users. So, like, that's that's something, like, pretty advanced, but, like, that's one of the things we're kinda running into now is, like, users are, like, unsure about Nasr Raw Connect and, like, oh, I had set auto approval, but, like, those didn't send out.

1075
01:36:52.380 --> 01:36:56.880
Another evolution of that could be, like, a federated instance for these Nostrilall connect messages.

1076
01:36:57.420 --> 01:37:07.454
Yeah. And then it's, like, you only need to come online once, like, that balance is depleted. And, like, we could just, like, you know, push notification. Oh, open the wall at the top up here in w c, and then it's, like, good to go from there.

1077
01:37:11.080 --> 01:37:12.540
Yeah. That makes sense to me.

1078
01:37:16.520 --> 01:37:17.020
Awesome.

1079
01:37:18.055 --> 01:37:19.594
This has been a great chat, fellas.

1080
01:37:19.975 --> 01:37:21.035
I've enjoyed it.

1081
01:37:21.815 --> 01:37:24.395
I hope, the freaks have enjoyed it as well.

1082
01:37:25.175 --> 01:37:26.715
If you're in the live chat,

1083
01:37:28.070 --> 01:37:31.610
feel free to drop any questions if you think we didn't cover anything. Do you guys

1084
01:37:31.989 --> 01:37:34.090
have anything you wanna cover that we haven't covered?

1085
01:37:37.105 --> 01:37:38.245
I don't think so.

1086
01:37:39.025 --> 01:37:45.205
Yeah. I mean, I think one thing from our perspective, like, we we really do wanna get feedback and

1087
01:37:45.585 --> 01:37:46.085
to,

1088
01:37:46.480 --> 01:38:06.020
like, feature requests, especially, like, you know, bigger ones. Like, yeah, bug features for sure. Like, keep sending those through. But, like, you know, one of the things now, like, we we finally got, like, some of the stuff in there. We finally got Lightning address. We'll have that released more broadly for other people soon. We're still working out the kinks. We had some few problems with new new addresses yesterday that we fixed.

1089
01:38:06.800 --> 01:38:08.340
So we're rolling that out slowly.

1090
01:38:09.600 --> 01:38:19.640
But, yeah, any big features, any, like, direction you wanna see Muni head towards, like, this is kind of now the time to ask because, like, we're very, like, user

1091
01:38:20.040 --> 01:38:28.780
feedback driven, and we've sort of, yeah, solved a lot of those problems over the last few weeks. So we really wanna head towards a direction that, you know, people can, you know, suggest.

1092
01:38:29.764 --> 01:38:33.385
And and so some of the best feedback right now for us is is

1093
01:38:33.844 --> 01:38:39.700
I it like like, the, like, the user stories type. Like, I am I am this kind of guy,

1094
01:38:40.240 --> 01:38:45.300
and I'm trying to pay this kind of thing. Like, this is what I'm trying to accomplish. Like, you know,

1095
01:38:45.865 --> 01:38:51.325
if you wanted to tell us, like, the a certain button should be, like, you know, more visible or something, that's that's great too.

1096
01:38:51.865 --> 01:38:52.685
But explaining

1097
01:38:53.420 --> 01:39:17.135
use cases that that right now, like, you think Lightning is almost able to fulfill, but it can't yet. You know? Like like, basic things, like, you know, like, I'm I'm doing remittance payments or, like, hey. There's a there's a guy, you know, that that wants to accept Bitcoin, but, you know, he had this misgiving, and so he wants me to be able to pay him in Bitcoin, but this is the reason he he, he won't let me pay him a Bitcoin.

1098
01:39:17.514 --> 01:39:32.220
Though those cut that kind of feedback because, you know, we're we're pretty technical, and we have the ability to, you know, potentially solve some of these these you know, get over some of the hurdles that maybe we haven't gotten yet for for, you know, general general spending in Bitcoin.

1099
01:39:33.545 --> 01:39:41.940
So, yeah, I'd love I'd love that kind of feedback as well. I see some questions in the comments that I'd like to cover real quick. Ben, in the beginning of,

1100
01:39:42.659 --> 01:39:47.639
in the beginning of mutiny, you kept talking about coin join. Is is coin join gonna happen

1101
01:39:48.820 --> 01:39:49.639
in mutiny?

1102
01:39:50.245 --> 01:39:52.585
And I would like to, but the I mean, it's

1103
01:39:52.965 --> 01:40:02.320
like we've more and more just gone down this, like, social payments wallet, so it doesn't fit in as much. And, like, the thing is like, Fedimint is kind of like a better privacy tool than CoinJoin.

1104
01:40:02.780 --> 01:40:03.280
So

1105
01:40:03.580 --> 01:40:07.680
we've kind of like solve like, what we wanted CoinJoin to solve already with Fedimint.

1106
01:40:08.140 --> 01:40:08.800
I mean,

1107
01:40:09.324 --> 01:40:14.864
like, the the real, like, then if you wanna do coin join, I'd wanna do something like you could coin join into a federation

1108
01:40:15.485 --> 01:40:20.640
and, then it'd be like, you know, it'd be like a coin join, but it's even cheaper. And,

1109
01:40:21.500 --> 01:40:27.195
you know, you get better privacy at at the, like, you know, the the post mix privacy is, like, a lot easier. But,

1110
01:40:27.895 --> 01:40:40.480
you know, it'd be a lot to build and, we you know, it's just like it'd be happy to be, like, a whole separate app versus from Unity because, like, CoinJoin on mobile apps don't work the best. So, you know, it's something, like, we'd like to do one day maybe, but Priorities.

1111
01:40:40.940 --> 01:40:41.920
Yes. Priorities.

1112
01:40:44.955 --> 01:40:45.195
Is,

1113
01:40:46.155 --> 01:40:50.735
if, Phoenix adds Bold 12, you guys are based on LDK, you're gonna add Bold 12 support?

1114
01:40:52.310 --> 01:40:53.850
I did a bolt 12 immunity,

1115
01:40:55.110 --> 01:40:58.010
in, like, October. I did one in untest network.

1116
01:40:58.630 --> 01:41:06.815
But, like, I had to, like, fork a bunch of stuff and, like, make channels public and all that stuff to get to work. I would love to add support for it. It's just I think, like,

1117
01:41:07.275 --> 01:41:14.150
LDK has it, like, in beta. It's I don't think it's full voice support yet. And then we have other issues where, like,

1118
01:41:14.690 --> 01:41:24.685
you know, even if, like, everything supported both 12 and LDK and mutiny, it's like, okay. Like, you need to allow the network to support, like, routing onion messages.

1119
01:41:25.300 --> 01:41:27.640
Otherwise, you can't get those payments across.

1120
01:41:28.340 --> 01:41:28.580
And,

1121
01:41:29.140 --> 01:41:29.640
like,

1122
01:41:30.020 --> 01:41:37.605
I think I forget who, but I think it's and Carla was posting the other day. 12 with with nostril messages instead of onion messages?

1123
01:41:39.425 --> 01:41:41.685
And, theoretically, but then it's not bolt 12 anymore.

1124
01:41:42.270 --> 01:41:47.170
The bolt 13? Yeah. Bolt 13. We we have bolt 12 at home, it's called, NWC.

1125
01:41:47.710 --> 01:41:48.530
Yeah. Yeah.

1126
01:41:48.989 --> 01:41:51.650
We we could we could pay bolt 12. Right, Ben?

1127
01:41:52.805 --> 01:42:00.825
Not yet. I mean, yeah, the receiving of bolt 12 is a lot more complicated or, like, especially for mobile, but in theory, we could add paying bolt 12 a lot easier.

1128
01:42:01.330 --> 01:42:02.310
It's just like,

1129
01:42:03.250 --> 01:42:06.469
you know, I haven't I don't know. I haven't had the time to get it working. Like,

1130
01:42:07.409 --> 01:42:19.034
it breaks a lot of the assumptions we made inside the wallet for, like, everything not being being able to pay multiple like, multiple times. So we'd have to, like, do some big refactors in the code, but, you know, in theory, we could do it.

1131
01:42:21.300 --> 01:42:21.800
Awesome.

1132
01:42:22.420 --> 01:42:25.639
Someone someone mentioned someone mentioned splicing. That's

1133
01:42:27.125 --> 01:42:28.025
another thing that

1134
01:42:28.565 --> 01:42:30.905
we would be basically waiting on LDK for,

1135
01:42:31.205 --> 01:42:35.385
but I I I think it would be great. Again, you know, Phoenix is doing such a good job.

1136
01:42:35.989 --> 01:42:39.849
I I do I do like that there's, you know, there's basically one big channel,

1137
01:42:40.710 --> 01:42:46.445
and it just makes it makes a a lot more sense. I feel like it's easier to to explain to a user,

1138
01:42:46.905 --> 01:42:49.085
which is exciting from from my perspective.

1139
01:42:51.710 --> 01:42:57.710
Yep. Yeah, exactly. Yeah. I love yeah. Splicing is like getting pretty close in LDK. They just merged the,

1140
01:42:58.429 --> 01:43:06.275
basically like the negotiation protocol of the transaction. Now it's just like they just need to do, like, the opening of the channel part. So it should be pretty soon,

1141
01:43:06.895 --> 01:43:07.395
hopefully.

1142
01:43:08.415 --> 01:43:08.915
Awesome.

1143
01:43:10.179 --> 01:43:12.679
Someone mentioned said, do something to help poor people.

1144
01:43:14.020 --> 01:43:22.244
Uh-huh. You even care? Yeah. Do I do I even get one one feedback that we get, you know, when we're we're sitting in our ivory tower in our,

1145
01:43:22.885 --> 01:43:24.264
first world luxury,

1146
01:43:25.890 --> 01:43:26.390
is

1147
01:43:26.990 --> 01:43:27.490
that,

1148
01:43:29.190 --> 01:43:29.690
Tether

1149
01:43:30.290 --> 01:43:33.590
is a big deal to a lot of people around the world,

1150
01:43:34.005 --> 01:43:41.545
and it's tough for me because I don't deal with it day to day. I don't have anybody in my life that I'm, like, you know, doing remittances to.

1151
01:43:42.780 --> 01:43:47.900
And so feedback along those lines of, like, what are they actually trying to accomplish? You know, are they

1152
01:43:48.540 --> 01:43:53.335
are people walking around with, you know, a bunch of Tether in a cuss self custodial wallet?

1153
01:43:53.795 --> 01:44:03.750
Do you have a bunch of Tether on Binance? Does it never, like, really rest anywhere? They just use it as a a transport mechanism for USD value, and then they, like, swap it to a local currency right away?

1154
01:44:04.130 --> 01:44:10.795
That kind of feedback would be very helpful for me right now because we're, you know, we're definitely looking into, you know, how do we how do we serve those people.

1155
01:44:12.695 --> 01:44:13.195
Awesome.

1156
01:44:16.750 --> 01:44:18.770
Cool. I also, I'm having

1157
01:44:21.035 --> 01:44:24.895
I'm having Hazard on, dispatch next week to talk about blossom.

1158
01:44:25.755 --> 01:44:26.415
Oh, yeah.

1159
01:44:26.875 --> 01:44:29.215
That that's a product of Madera. Right?

1160
01:44:29.650 --> 01:44:33.030
Mhmm. Project that came out of Madera blossom is, like, this idea

1161
01:44:33.570 --> 01:44:34.150
of distributed

1162
01:44:34.770 --> 01:44:35.270
storage

1163
01:44:35.890 --> 01:44:36.870
using a noster

1164
01:44:37.490 --> 01:44:37.990
spec.

1165
01:44:39.065 --> 01:44:40.525
Is my understanding correct?

1166
01:44:40.905 --> 01:44:45.405
Yeah. It's I mean, it's also I mean, the the the dream, right, is to

1167
01:44:46.500 --> 01:44:54.119
I mean, we we were talking about blaster before. Right? And I I think it's funny when when Nostra like, Nostra is all about, like, making, like,

1168
01:44:54.500 --> 01:44:55.960
dumb trade offs,

1169
01:44:56.615 --> 01:45:04.875
doing the the dumb simple thing because it actually works, instead of having, like, the the the perfect galaxy brain distributed network

1170
01:45:05.190 --> 01:45:11.849
that nobody uses because it's too complicated or or it's fragile in some sense. Right? So, like, people use,

1171
01:45:12.150 --> 01:45:18.355
like, CDNs all the time on Nostr to host images. You know? Nostr has not solved,

1172
01:45:18.975 --> 01:45:20.115
like, some decentralized

1173
01:45:20.655 --> 01:45:23.740
hosting. We don't put media on our relays.

1174
01:45:24.120 --> 01:45:26.700
We just put them on Amazon, basically. And,

1175
01:45:27.880 --> 01:45:30.434
and so, you know, there's this dream.

1176
01:45:30.815 --> 01:45:35.474
If you had a job before, even Noss has this really great essay on why IPFS doesn't work.

1177
01:45:36.080 --> 01:45:39.940
But there's this dream of having this, like, decentralized,

1178
01:45:40.800 --> 01:45:44.020
you know, ho media hosting. And so how do you do that?

1179
01:45:44.995 --> 01:45:45.495
And,

1180
01:45:46.035 --> 01:45:48.215
yeah, there was a there I remember

1181
01:45:49.155 --> 01:45:57.949
I don't wanna take any more credit for this than, than, than I don't wanna take any credit for this, but I want, I want to brag that I was, I was

1182
01:45:58.605 --> 01:46:05.905
at a barbecue in Madeira. So every week in Madeira on a Friday, we would do a demo day. People would show off what they're working on.

1183
01:46:06.469 --> 01:46:14.555
And, and then we do a barbecue offer, and there's a lot of good conversations because we just saw so much stuff, and we're, like, started talking to each other about what we're working on.

1184
01:46:15.115 --> 01:46:16.795
And I I, I,

1185
01:46:17.275 --> 01:46:19.055
walked up to to Stew

1186
01:46:20.715 --> 01:46:21.295
and Hazard

1187
01:46:22.310 --> 01:46:22.810
talking,

1188
01:46:23.830 --> 01:46:24.890
about this, like,

1189
01:46:25.190 --> 01:46:26.170
blossom idea,

1190
01:46:26.870 --> 01:46:30.810
and and the idea is is it was like, is this too dumb?

1191
01:46:31.355 --> 01:46:37.054
It was Hazard's question. It's like, is this is this too simple? Because all he's doing is basically

1192
01:46:37.435 --> 01:46:38.815
is basically using

1193
01:46:39.750 --> 01:46:42.090
using CDNs. Still using Amazon,

1194
01:46:43.110 --> 01:46:45.849
but making the content hash addressable.

1195
01:46:46.310 --> 01:46:48.409
So the default is a hash,

1196
01:46:48.995 --> 01:46:50.215
And then there's also,

1197
01:46:50.835 --> 01:46:52.295
you get better discoverability

1198
01:46:53.315 --> 01:46:57.660
because you have Nostra as this discoverability layer. And also you have,

1199
01:46:58.200 --> 01:47:03.020
you reduce the search space because when you publish some media, you also

1200
01:47:03.405 --> 01:47:06.625
have the the the pub key of the person publishing.

1201
01:47:06.925 --> 01:47:09.745
Yeah. Because that's one of the big problems with IPFS is you

1202
01:47:10.205 --> 01:47:12.465
have hash based, you know, content addressing.

1203
01:47:12.930 --> 01:47:17.990
So you you you know the exact hash of the thing, and that's enough to to find the thing theoretically,

1204
01:47:18.450 --> 01:47:24.245
but you end up searching this huge, sprawling, decentralized network and taking, you know, days to find the file.

1205
01:47:25.745 --> 01:47:32.165
And so if if Nostra can just say, like, yes. You know, here is somebody published this at this CDN,

1206
01:47:33.730 --> 01:47:37.270
and if it doesn't exist on that CDN anymore,

1207
01:47:37.969 --> 01:47:41.670
then because you have the hash, Nautilus is gonna help you, you know, with Blossom

1208
01:47:42.405 --> 01:47:43.385
find the fallback.

1209
01:47:44.165 --> 01:47:46.905
And it's pretty simple of a concept,

1210
01:47:47.844 --> 01:47:48.085
but,

1211
01:47:49.020 --> 01:47:52.239
it might just be he also has, like, an API for,

1212
01:47:52.780 --> 01:47:55.955
you know, uploading and listing files and stuff like that. But

1213
01:47:56.515 --> 01:48:02.135
it's a pretty simple idea, but it really might just be enough to do to add just enough decentralization

1214
01:48:02.515 --> 01:48:06.739
to, like, CDN based image hosting into, like, we we can live in this beautiful

1215
01:48:07.440 --> 01:48:07.940
world.

1216
01:48:08.960 --> 01:48:14.215
I'm so I'm so stoked on it, and it was just so cool to, like, be around those guys when they're coming up with those ideas.

1217
01:48:20.534 --> 01:48:23.994
Yeah. I mean so I'm gonna have them on Wednesday, 1700 UTC,

1218
01:48:25.160 --> 01:48:26.540
same time as this rep.

1219
01:48:27.400 --> 01:48:34.565
Should I should I have anyone else join me for it? I feel like it's a little is it a little bit above my grade? I think I can handle it on my own. Right?

1220
01:48:35.265 --> 01:48:41.205
I don't yeah. I don't I mean, what is your pay grade? I don't know. No one knows my pay grade. My pay grade is private.

1221
01:48:41.699 --> 01:48:45.480
Stew would be good to get on as well. Who the fuck is Stew? The satellite

1222
01:48:45.860 --> 01:48:46.020
satellite

1223
01:48:47.219 --> 01:48:49.639
Dude, he's had some bangers of episodes,

1224
01:48:50.260 --> 01:48:52.855
last few weeks. He should have a lot of stuff.

1225
01:48:53.875 --> 01:48:56.135
Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. Okay. After we introduce

1226
01:48:56.514 --> 01:49:01.070
me to Stu, maybe I'll have him join me. Him, Hazard and Stu were working on,

1227
01:49:01.790 --> 01:49:04.929
also, like, a Discord alternative on on Noster.

1228
01:49:05.310 --> 01:49:08.050
Oh, yeah. Maybe I'll have Stu on too. Can you introduce me?

1229
01:49:09.105 --> 01:49:17.660
We're talking about business on air. That sounds good. So I'm gonna have Hazard on next week, Wednesday, 1700 UTC, and hopefully Stu as well.

1230
01:49:18.220 --> 01:49:18.880
And then,

1231
01:49:21.260 --> 01:49:24.400
I have Will from Domus Day the week after that. Also, 1700

1232
01:49:24.780 --> 01:49:26.960
UTC. I really like 1700 UTC.

1233
01:49:27.905 --> 01:49:34.085
And sorry if you work a Fiat job in America, and that's, like, dead center in the middle of your workday.

1234
01:49:35.560 --> 01:49:38.060
I I just like it. It's good it's a good time to rip.

1235
01:49:38.520 --> 01:49:40.380
Guys, I don't know if you saw.

1236
01:49:40.760 --> 01:49:43.579
We are officially an hour and 55 minutes

1237
01:49:44.695 --> 01:49:49.595
into this rip, which means it's ride or dies only have made it this far.

1238
01:49:51.620 --> 01:49:55.080
I don't did you see my notes about sailor and open source devs?

1239
01:49:55.940 --> 01:49:56.680
Oh, yeah.

1240
01:49:57.220 --> 01:50:01.755
Should we talk about that real quick? Or I mean, because you guys weren't aware. I don't think of any of that.

1241
01:50:03.015 --> 01:50:14.289
I did not see these notes. I've heard that that that Matt said something about Sailor, but I don't know. There's, like, all these conspiracy theories. Like, I really don't have much to gain from talking about this publicly,

1242
01:50:14.750 --> 01:50:22.975
except that I just feel like it should be public. I mean, I've sat on it for about 4 months now because this was prelaunch ETFs when this happened.

1243
01:50:24.390 --> 01:50:28.010
And everyone just keeps asking me for a source. Give me a source like SourceSeagulls.

1244
01:50:29.590 --> 01:50:36.185
Like, I'm the cofounder of OpenSats. Like, I'm in charge of trying to get as many donations as possible to open source developers.

1245
01:50:37.764 --> 01:50:38.264
What

1246
01:50:38.735 --> 01:50:45.820
source. I'm the fucking source. You know? And, like, you don't have to believe me. That's fine. But, like, I felt like it needed to be public. And,

1247
01:50:46.805 --> 01:50:50.185
I'm very grateful for Bitwise that Bitwise decided to support

1248
01:50:50.885 --> 01:50:53.945
a split donation between OpenSats, Brink, and HRF,

1249
01:50:54.270 --> 01:50:56.530
10% for 10 years split evenly.

1250
01:50:57.469 --> 01:51:08.035
I'm very grateful to Van Eck, who's just supporting Brink. Like, I don't you don't have to donate to OpenSats. Like, I'm not I don't make any money when Open Sats gets donations. I do it all for free.

1251
01:51:09.935 --> 01:51:10.755
But, like,

1252
01:51:11.579 --> 01:51:18.800
there's a shit ton of ETFs. It's like, is it not curious to anybody why there aren't more ETFs that are supporting open source developers?

1253
01:51:19.655 --> 01:51:21.034
And I I don't think

1254
01:51:22.054 --> 01:51:25.114
I don't think anyone should be forced to support open source.

1255
01:51:25.655 --> 01:51:28.074
Like, if you don't wanna make a donation, don't make a donation.

1256
01:51:28.680 --> 01:51:29.420
That's fine.

1257
01:51:30.520 --> 01:51:36.140
But when you're actively out there, stop trying to convince other people not to donate to open source.

1258
01:51:36.915 --> 01:51:40.135
That's a fucking problem, and it's frustrating. It's incredibly frustrating.

1259
01:51:40.835 --> 01:51:47.600
What is the what would the reasoning be? Why would Saylor prefer an ETF to not support open source?

1260
01:51:47.980 --> 01:51:56.935
The the most frustrating part of the whole thing is, like, if you just ask Sailor, he will tell you that he doesn't think you should support open source developers. Like, it's not like,

1261
01:51:57.555 --> 01:52:04.120
I don't I don't I don't think it's something he would deny. I think it's something he would proudly encourage you not to support open source developers.

1262
01:52:04.660 --> 01:52:07.160
And it's because he comes from the ossification side.

1263
01:52:07.860 --> 01:52:19.565
And I'm not a guy who's, like, super pro soft fork. Like, I hated on Twitter when people were like, these 10 people agree with the soft fork. Like, I'm gonna go for a soft fork. Like, I think we should be very deliberate with consensus changes.

1264
01:52:20.840 --> 01:52:31.785
And it should it take a lot of review. It should take I mean, Bitcoin's beautiful in that way. It it does take a lot of of momentum and motivation to do any kind of real changes to Bitcoin.

1265
01:52:32.165 --> 01:52:49.605
So so the idea would be if you have, like, a bunch a bunch of, like, protocol devs with cushy salaries sitting around bored that's They're gonna, like, dev up soft forks. Mhmm. Yeah. But, like, OpenSats has a 100 plus grants out, and none of them are focused on Softworks. Like, I mean, I think the XZ tools,

1266
01:52:50.465 --> 01:52:50.965
issue

1267
01:52:51.425 --> 01:52:54.005
was, like, a maintainer that was was

1268
01:52:55.010 --> 01:52:57.590
absentee. Right? It's like maintenance is important.

1269
01:52:58.929 --> 01:53:07.275
Maintenance is important. Code review is important. Like, all these things are incredibly important. Like, we're securing 1,000,000,000,000 of dollars on Bitcoin. But Bitcoin's a $1,000,000,000,000 asset right now.

1270
01:53:07.975 --> 01:53:12.635
Like, a a we you have to support the open source contributors that keep all this shit secure.

1271
01:53:13.410 --> 01:53:17.910
And I've dedicated a large portion of my life to to making that a reality for free.

1272
01:53:19.490 --> 01:53:26.365
And I'm not I don't want credit for it. Like, I don't need credit for it. But, like, if someone's out out there actively attacking

1273
01:53:27.385 --> 01:53:30.365
that mission, right, and actively stopping that mission,

1274
01:53:30.730 --> 01:53:33.550
that's incredibly frustrating. And people say, like, oh,

1275
01:53:34.090 --> 01:53:39.550
like, what kind of threat could Sailor make to an ETF? Like, I don't, you know, I don't

1276
01:53:40.355 --> 01:53:42.114
I don't think Sailor has I

1277
01:53:42.755 --> 01:53:49.094
owning more Bitcoin doesn't give you more ability to change the protocol or do anything with Bitcoin. That's the beauty of Bitcoin.

1278
01:53:50.210 --> 01:53:56.885
But that doesn't mean that just some random suit isn't gonna choose not to support open source developers because Saleor tells them not to.

1279
01:53:58.804 --> 01:54:06.264
And people should just question this. People should ask, you know, what the fuck is going on? Like, if it's purely because of, like, he's

1280
01:54:06.840 --> 01:54:08.780
in favor of Osmification, like,

1281
01:54:09.159 --> 01:54:10.219
I think that's like

1282
01:54:10.679 --> 01:54:13.765
if you believe that, like, I have a lot less respect for him because, like,

1283
01:54:14.725 --> 01:54:18.585
he should, like, he's been running a software company for 30 years. He should understand like 99%

1284
01:54:19.045 --> 01:54:22.905
of like Bitcoin development is not working on soft works. It's like

1285
01:54:23.520 --> 01:54:25.780
literally everything else maintaining code and

1286
01:54:26.159 --> 01:54:30.020
wallets and, you know, everything that, like, you know, people do. Software anywhere.

1287
01:54:30.480 --> 01:54:34.594
Yeah. Exactly. Like, you know, he's he's been running one for 30 years, but,

1288
01:54:36.494 --> 01:54:47.770
they're like that that get that just makes me think, okay. It's much more likely, you know, he's he's just a bad actor and, like, you know, I mean, he he his company is, like, right down the street from the CIA and stuff. And he actively,

1289
01:54:49.225 --> 01:54:58.420
like, says on CNBC and stuff, like, you know, Bitcoin is not money. The dollar is money. Bitcoin is just a store value and stuff like that. Like, I think it's it's more he's trying to, like, subvert Bitcoin

1290
01:54:58.880 --> 01:54:59.700
and, you know

1291
01:55:00.400 --> 01:55:01.620
I just wanna be clear

1292
01:55:03.175 --> 01:55:06.534
that I haven't made these acqusums. This was that was Ben's words.

1293
01:55:07.974 --> 01:55:28.975
The I want I also wanna be clear that for the last 3 months, like, I don't have a personal relationship with Sailor, and, like, that is fine. So, like, I haven't talked to Sailor specifically, but, like, I have made attempts to back channel and privately talk about this stuff and because I don't think it benefits anyone. Like, me going public with it doesn't increase support for open source developers.

1294
01:55:29.780 --> 01:55:33.960
Like, I don't think it does. I think it creates more drama and more bullshit and more controversy.

1295
01:55:35.620 --> 01:55:39.145
And, like, it was not my goal. That that was never

1296
01:55:39.845 --> 01:55:41.065
the ideal situation.

1297
01:55:42.565 --> 01:55:46.665
But I just felt like, at this point, like, it needed to be public.

1298
01:55:48.160 --> 01:55:49.620
And that's why I made it public.

1299
01:55:50.400 --> 01:55:54.020
I did post it to Noster only. I think it's interesting that

1300
01:55:55.795 --> 01:55:58.855
people are talking about it that pretend that Noster doesn't exist.

1301
01:56:00.275 --> 01:56:04.195
But I'm glad the conversations are happening, and people should just ask him. Just

1302
01:56:06.099 --> 01:56:11.400
like he's gonna hide from it. Instead of making you ask him. My instead of making an excuse in my comments

1303
01:56:12.340 --> 01:56:13.079
for him

1304
01:56:14.175 --> 01:56:21.795
and were calling me out and say, first of all, this has absolutely nothing to do with 1031. Completely fucking unrelated. And I will say that the gents at 1031

1305
01:56:23.190 --> 01:56:23.750
are incredibly,

1306
01:56:26.070 --> 01:56:28.810
they're just amazing people that they're fine with

1307
01:56:30.554 --> 01:56:32.414
they're an up ship all the fucking

1308
01:56:34.474 --> 01:56:41.210
and oftentimes, they support me. Like, when I deleted my Twitter, they completely supported it, which was impressive. Even though that was obviously

1309
01:56:41.750 --> 01:56:44.010
bad for 1031 that I deleted my Twitter.

1310
01:56:45.590 --> 01:56:55.215
But 1031 is completely unrelated to this. This is more of an open SaaS thing, and this is is is just frustrating to see. And I I would just once again ask you, like,

1311
01:56:55.820 --> 01:56:59.040
VanEck, Bitwise are supporting open source developers.

1312
01:56:59.420 --> 01:57:02.480
Why aren't more ETFs doing it? It's tax deductible.

1313
01:57:05.095 --> 01:57:08.235
I don't have to do any they don't even have to have Bitcoin.

1314
01:57:08.935 --> 01:57:11.435
They can be Fiat Maxis and donate Fiat,

1315
01:57:12.110 --> 01:57:13.650
and they get a tax deduction,

1316
01:57:14.430 --> 01:57:18.210
and they get to help the the the devs that secure their fucking chain.

1317
01:57:18.830 --> 01:57:20.770
Would like, why is that not the case?

1318
01:57:21.335 --> 01:57:22.875
Like, ask yourself that question.

1319
01:57:24.215 --> 01:57:26.795
And I'm not gonna name the specific ETF,

1320
01:57:28.055 --> 01:57:31.660
that I know this happened for because, like, I'm not gonna air that one

1321
01:57:33.560 --> 01:57:35.580
that's that's trying to

1322
01:57:36.440 --> 01:57:38.940
be deliberate about it, if that makes any sense.

1323
01:57:41.655 --> 01:57:46.155
Yeah. I think the only thing that there was confusion on was, like, whether or not it was a joke

1324
01:57:46.455 --> 01:57:57.950
and whether or not, like, there was some confusion around, like, which ETF. Like, like, people people were thinking bit like, wait. I thought Bitwise did Bitwise or can act. Yeah. Bitwise I think that's the most thing I saw.

1325
01:57:58.275 --> 01:58:04.935
Are legit, and they are supporting open source contributors. And they will continue to support open source contributor. Hopefully, that item fucked that up.

1326
01:58:05.370 --> 01:58:05.870
Yeah.

1327
01:58:06.210 --> 01:58:06.710
No.

1328
01:58:07.050 --> 01:58:15.070
Hong's dope. Like, his his reasoning for it just, like, makes the most amount of sense. It's like, look. You're putting 1,000,000,000 of dollars into this thing. Like, we need to protect it,

1329
01:58:15.795 --> 01:58:18.495
and we need to fund the protection of it, basically.

1330
01:58:19.515 --> 01:58:22.255
And if you're not doing that, you're not being good stewards of the ETF.

1331
01:58:23.270 --> 01:58:29.210
Yep. Yeah. And it's like, you know, you you have, like, a gold ETF, but you put it in, like, a $40 safe.

1332
01:58:29.510 --> 01:58:39.950
It's like, no. No, you should have a very expensive safe to store your gold. Like, same thing, like, you know, this is part of securing that Bitcoin is, you know, you could have the best hardware wallets and HSMs in the world, but,

1333
01:58:40.430 --> 01:58:44.690
you know, if there's a consensus bug or something breaks in bitcoin or people stop working on it, then

1334
01:58:45.070 --> 01:58:47.115
that bitcoin might not be as valuable and

1335
01:58:47.595 --> 01:58:49.135
this is a way to ensure that.

1336
01:58:50.795 --> 01:58:53.775
Exactly. Okay. I'm glad we covered that. I felt like

1337
01:58:54.630 --> 01:58:56.489
we should talk about it at the least.

1338
01:58:56.790 --> 01:58:59.610
I'm sure I'm I'm gonna have to talk about it in our HR as well.

1339
01:59:02.475 --> 01:59:10.895
But I'm glad people are having the conversation having the fucking conversation. Just ask them. And, like, to all the people that are like, oh, what kind of influence can Saylor have on people?

1340
01:59:11.280 --> 01:59:20.955
Like, oh, this is Bitcoin. Like, he has no influence. It's like, yeah. Well, you keep softballing him questions because he has influence and you wanna go in his fucking yachts. So don't give me that fucking bullshit.

1341
01:59:22.615 --> 01:59:28.635
I don't need to be on a sailor yacht. I'm cool with that. Like, he can have his 7 yachts. I don't have to participate in that.

1342
01:59:29.160 --> 01:59:32.780
You you should join Twitter, get a blue check, and then ask him that question.

1343
01:59:33.320 --> 01:59:36.860
Yeah. I mean, Tony, you have a blue check. You can ask him the question if you want.

1344
01:59:38.034 --> 01:59:42.614
He actually wanna be invited on the yacht. Sorry. I wanna be invited on the yacht.

1345
01:59:42.994 --> 01:59:44.695
Udemy is hoping to get investment.

1346
01:59:46.190 --> 01:59:56.915
That's why I thought I got the blue check. I will say if you wanna talk about incentives, like, I we can pretty much guarantee that 10:30 one's not gonna get fucking investment from sailor, any sailor, adjacent people.

1347
01:59:58.095 --> 02:00:01.155
Like, I get I literally get no benefit out of making this.

1348
02:00:02.989 --> 02:00:08.050
I it is After over it, you can go fuck yourself. Like, I really don't give a shit.

1349
02:00:09.365 --> 02:00:15.305
It is it is cool. I mean, I I I don't know exactly what it's like to be a high net worth individual, but

1350
02:00:15.719 --> 02:00:16.219
the

1351
02:00:16.520 --> 02:00:21.020
the idea that there here's this thing. Like, let's say you buy, like, you know, $10,000,000

1352
02:00:21.480 --> 02:00:26.195
of Apple stock. Like, how are you gonna improve that bag? Like, you're gonna, like,

1353
02:00:26.495 --> 02:00:32.755
you know, talk about it, if people ask you on, you know, maybe do you know, try to be an influencer,

1354
02:00:34.040 --> 02:00:43.835
you know, buy an I every new iPhone that comes out. But, like, with Bitcoin, like, you know, I've been to, you know, a lot of developer focused conferences, and you'll be in a room where it feels like, hey. Like,

1355
02:00:44.135 --> 02:00:44.875
it feels like

1356
02:00:45.175 --> 02:00:45.675
25%

1357
02:00:46.535 --> 02:00:49.035
of the people who could, you know, possibly,

1358
02:00:49.840 --> 02:00:53.860
you know, write meaningful code for Bitcoin Core are here right now. You know? Like,

1359
02:00:54.480 --> 02:00:57.780
it it it it is a relatively small community,

1360
02:00:58.155 --> 02:01:00.975
and we're building so much cool shit. Like,

1361
02:01:01.435 --> 02:01:02.255
we're making

1362
02:01:02.715 --> 02:01:04.655
so many important improvements

1363
02:01:05.469 --> 02:01:06.130
in how,

1364
02:01:06.830 --> 02:01:10.770
you know, Bitcoin is secured, how it how we how we spend it, you know,

1365
02:01:11.150 --> 02:01:14.530
all sorts of, all across all the layers.

1366
02:01:15.385 --> 02:01:19.165
So much good work is being done by a relatively small number of people.

1367
02:01:20.025 --> 02:01:28.570
And so if you have the money to support a few more of those people, you're actually making a pretty big impact on, like, the value proposition of Bitcoin,

1368
02:01:29.190 --> 02:01:35.994
which which is awesome. I mean, I also want, you know, for profit companies to have, like, you know, just a good good old fashioned capitalism

1369
02:01:36.295 --> 02:01:36.795
reasons.

1370
02:01:37.655 --> 02:01:38.715
Yeah. That's what mutinius.

1371
02:01:39.494 --> 02:01:39.900
Yeah.

1372
02:01:41.820 --> 02:01:44.960
A false focused capitalist company. Alright.

1373
02:01:45.500 --> 02:01:47.920
That's fucking dope. That's really fucking cool.

1374
02:01:50.045 --> 02:01:54.784
Okay. Yeah. I mean, Sailor's official response so far today was, the big

1375
02:01:55.644 --> 02:01:58.770
point is top dog, and then you put AI generated

1376
02:01:59.310 --> 02:02:00.450
dog image

1377
02:02:01.390 --> 02:02:02.850
wearing a Bitcoin collar,

1378
02:02:03.790 --> 02:02:06.930
which I really I just really I think that was a really compelling

1379
02:02:07.935 --> 02:02:08.435
response.

1380
02:02:10.015 --> 02:02:11.555
Guys, this has been fun.

1381
02:02:13.055 --> 02:02:15.385
I look forward to kicking it in person. Hopefully

1382
02:02:16.480 --> 02:02:17.860
I think you're the top

1383
02:02:18.160 --> 02:02:20.340
dog. I'm not. Fuck that shit, Jake.

1384
02:02:20.960 --> 02:02:30.005
If you're like, oh, yo, dude. He, like, he, like, quit Twitter, and he, like, went to Nasr where there's 200 people because of engagement. Like, he's trying to get like,

1385
02:02:30.465 --> 02:02:35.370
yeah. Okay. Like, are you Total top dog move. Like, you fucking retard. Okay.

1386
02:02:36.070 --> 02:02:36.570
Guys,

1387
02:02:37.350 --> 02:02:38.250
final thoughts.

1388
02:02:38.630 --> 02:02:39.130
Was

1389
02:02:39.830 --> 02:02:42.010
we'll start with Ben. Ben, final thoughts.

1390
02:02:44.975 --> 02:02:47.135
Find open source devs. Try out me and you

1391
02:02:48.015 --> 02:02:53.290
I don't know. Try out me and you plus in our lightning address stuff. Give us feedback. Otherwise, I don't know.

1392
02:02:53.830 --> 02:02:54.650
Stay pretty.

1393
02:02:55.270 --> 02:02:58.890
Stay pretty. I love it. Thanks, Ben. Paul, final thoughts.

1394
02:02:59.565 --> 02:03:03.505
Yeah. Pay pay for MeetMe Plus. Make make capitalism work.

1395
02:03:05.245 --> 02:03:06.385
Only you can prevent

1396
02:03:07.090 --> 02:03:07.750
copy open

1397
02:03:08.370 --> 02:03:08.870
source

1398
02:03:09.810 --> 02:03:10.310
softworks

1399
02:03:10.690 --> 02:03:12.230
by paying for beauty plus.

1400
02:03:13.810 --> 02:03:14.615
I love it.

1401
02:03:15.015 --> 02:03:16.955
Thanks, Paul. Tony, final thoughts?

1402
02:03:17.735 --> 02:03:22.470
Yeah. No. Just just appreciation for you, Odell, Ben, and Paul. It's,

1403
02:03:23.030 --> 02:03:26.650
it's been about a year since we started, and it's been a wild year.

1404
02:03:27.110 --> 02:03:30.170
And, yeah, couldn't do it without the support of, like, everyone, 1031,

1405
02:03:31.355 --> 02:03:32.335
Nostra Community,

1406
02:03:34.074 --> 02:03:37.135
open source software like Bitcoin, Primal,

1407
02:03:38.820 --> 02:03:39.320
LDK,

1408
02:03:39.860 --> 02:03:42.600
Fediment. Like, basically, our entire stack

1409
02:03:42.900 --> 02:03:44.840
is software that we didn't make.

1410
02:03:45.460 --> 02:03:48.955
So we just put it together. So, like, def definitely a huge appreciation

1411
02:03:49.735 --> 02:03:54.535
to everyone that supports that that mission and and and and writes the code that,

1412
02:03:55.300 --> 02:03:58.840
that we can use. So, yeah, appreciate your student all around.

1413
02:04:01.619 --> 02:04:02.840
Thank you, Tony.

1414
02:04:03.415 --> 02:04:09.035
Like I said, I look forward to kicking you with the guys in person hopefully sometime soon. I'm sure I'll have you on dispatch again

1415
02:04:11.415 --> 02:04:12.540
relatively soon.

1416
02:04:13.020 --> 02:04:14.300
Yeah. This was a great rip.

1417
02:04:15.180 --> 02:04:16.720
It would be who made to

1418
02:04:17.420 --> 02:04:19.200
shout out our top supporters,

1419
02:04:19.980 --> 02:04:20.800
this week.

1420
02:04:22.405 --> 02:04:26.745
You know, dispatch is a 100% audience funded. We have no ads or sponsors.

1421
02:04:27.285 --> 02:04:44.235
So we rely on Bitcoin donations either through podcasting 2 point o apps or through the Zap stream. And now I put them all together. So we have at Eric 99 with 50,000 sats, at 8 Myth Rander with 18,000 sats, and at d b cooper with 10,000 sats. Thank you, freaks who continue to support the show.

1422
02:04:44.935 --> 02:04:47.275
And thank you, freaks who joined the live chat.

1423
02:04:47.655 --> 02:04:49.034
You guys make this special.

1424
02:04:49.450 --> 02:05:03.065
You know, I know 1700 UTC might not be the best time for some of you guys, but the fact that you joined the live chat, really does make you unique. So thank you. And last but not least, always, you know, share the podcast with friends, family.

1425
02:05:03.605 --> 02:05:05.705
It's available in every podcast app.

1426
02:05:06.560 --> 02:05:08.660
It's available on YouTube until we get banned.

1427
02:05:09.680 --> 02:05:10.900
It's available on

1428
02:05:12.320 --> 02:05:13.045
Twitter, and

1429
02:05:13.445 --> 02:05:18.105
just subscribing to it, leaving reviews, stuff like that does help. So thank you, guys.

1430
02:05:20.485 --> 02:05:21.945
Love you all. Thank you.

1431
02:05:29.670 --> 02:05:30.490
Thank y'all.

1432
02:05:31.125 --> 02:05:32.585
Nice to play with y'all today.

1433
02:05:33.284 --> 02:05:34.505
Good seeing you again.

1434
02:05:35.684 --> 02:05:37.945
Yeah. We're gonna do another 7 point

1435
02:10:38.330 --> 02:10:41.469
Love you, freaks. That was The Allman Brothers,

1436
02:10:43.450 --> 02:10:44.910
singing Rambling Man

1437
02:10:45.290 --> 02:10:45.790
1982

1438
02:10:48.065 --> 02:10:49.605
at Florida State University.

1439
02:10:50.545 --> 02:10:52.165
To all the freaks who wanna know

1440
02:10:52.705 --> 02:10:55.650
what track was played, I'm gonna try and let you know.

1441
02:10:56.130 --> 02:11:00.710
I love you all. As I mentioned earlier, I'm gonna have Hazard on to talk blossom

1442
02:11:04.574 --> 02:11:05.074
UTC.

1443
02:11:05.775 --> 02:11:06.975
I'm gonna have Damas

1444
02:11:07.375 --> 02:11:11.635
not Damas. I'm gonna have jb 55 Will on to talk Damas and Noster

1445
02:11:12.480 --> 02:11:15.300
on the 23rd, also at 1700 UTC.

1446
02:11:15.920 --> 02:11:19.940
And, I might add some shows in between there. Not sure yet.

1447
02:11:21.075 --> 02:11:23.975
We'll do it as we come, but I appreciate you all.

1448
02:11:25.475 --> 02:11:26.935
Let's fucking do this thing.

1449
02:11:28.035 --> 02:11:29.095
It's gonna take

1450
02:11:32.860 --> 02:11:33.360
visuals

1451
02:11:34.380 --> 02:11:34.880
free

1452
02:11:35.580 --> 02:11:37.120
for this movement to succeed.

1453
02:11:38.860 --> 02:11:39.340
And,

1454
02:11:40.765 --> 02:11:44.465
it's with pride and honor that, I'm a part of it with y'all,

1455
02:11:44.925 --> 02:11:52.310
but it takes you, it takes me, takes every one of us to make it a reality. So appreciate you guys. Stay on list access.