CD126: DAMUS WITH WILL CASARIN

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Created: 4/23/2024 7:20:43 PM
Duration: 7374.656
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That

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you think interest rates are going higher and that you wanna get paid your MMA bonus in Bitcoin. Right?

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100%.

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That's a that's a huge part of the Austrian Economic School. Right? Supply and demand and scarcity,

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And I think Bitcoin represents that the the Bitcoin, even though it's it's dropping a little bit, I think is a

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is a defense against the

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the the tired state is a defense against inflation too because eventually it's going go up because

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everybody's knowing what Bitcoin is, and, the dollar is losing value because the interest rates because the government keeps,

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printing money Right. Keep doing handouts, keeping doing, like, welfare to the people. They they are not trying to to to control

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the supply of the money. They are always printing more, so I think that's going to be beneficial

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to Bitcoin.

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Happy Bitcoin Tuesday, freaks. It's your host, Odell, here for another Citadel Dispatch,

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the interactive

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live show

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focused on Bitcoin and Freedom Tech discussion.

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That intro clip

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was on Fox Business.

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This US UFC fighter, his his last name is Moyano,

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won a fight in UFC 300 and then immediately started shilling Austrian Economics,

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and now it appears he's a Bitcoin influencer

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in the latest era of everyone's a Bitcoin influencer now. And he has recently launched his new Bitcoin podcast.

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I presume it's about Bitcoin and Austrian economics,

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called show me the money.

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Pretty kind of crazy timeline.

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I have a great guest, joining us, this week, return guest.

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I believe he was last on the show,

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Citadel dispatch 63 back in April 2022.

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We have Will here, jb55,

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the creator of Domus.

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How's it going, Will? Hey, guys. Yeah. Thanks for having me.

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It's been a while, but,

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it seems seems like you've been busy with all these episodes.

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Yeah. I mean, we're at 126

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now.

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Been busy with a lot of shit,

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as have you. Nostra has come a really long way. I will say,

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to all the freaks, if you haven't listened

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to episode 63, that was with Fiat Jaffe and mister Kooks,

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and Will.

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You should definitely check it out. It was the super, super early days of Noster.

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And they're very early There was no mobile clients. There was, I think, I was just starting to build on us in in during that episode. So We were, like, mostly talking in theoreticals,

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which is kinda crazy.

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Like, it might work. I don't know. We'll see.

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And look how far we've come.

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So, Will, I mean,

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we have a lot to talk about this, Rip.

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First things first, I like

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to lead off on Nostra

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episodes. I have more and more Noster episodes now, so maybe I don't have to keep doing it. But while I have you here,

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why Noster? Why so much focus on it? Why should people care?

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Yeah. I think, you know,

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I think ever since 2016,

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there's been, like, there's an increase of censorship. There's an increase of,

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corporations

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and governments who wanna, you know, control your your life, control your data. They wanna spy on you. They want to

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you know, they wanna be involved in every part of your life because they they feel like they, you know, they have all this power now, and and they wanna use that against you.

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So I I feel like, you know, corporations are kind of captured by the system. They're captured by governments.

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And, you know, we need to break free for that, if we want to live in a free society online and have, like, a freedom of speech in cyberspace.

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So Nostra to me, it represents, like, the best opportunity

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at executing that vision.

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And since it's a protocol and since it's an open protocol like Bitcoin, we can integrate, you know, other freedom of speech technology such as Bitcoin into the protocol,

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which opens up this whole wide area of new opportunities

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of spreading, you know, Bitcoin further and further, you know, getting it into the hands of, like, regular people who just, like maybe they just wanna post and with their friends online. But and now there's a zap button,

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on each post. And now, like, it just gets people more and more,

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interacting with Bitcoin as a technology and not the scary investment or, like, the scary technology that they heard about one time. But once it starts getting integrated into the apps via open protocols,

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I think, it just becomes this huge, a really important technology for just, like, Trojan and cores Bitcoin into into normies. So that's that's what's the original vision for Domus, at least. Yeah. I mean, I think you you kinda nailed it, and you've been on top of it for a while now in terms of,

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growing censorship online, and I think a lot of people

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are are kind of sleeping on that.

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I mean, obviously,

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it's it's become more aware,

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for many more people than it has been in the past, But, I mean, I think you would agree with me that I see that censorship accelerating and getting worse, not better.

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So, basically, as that's happening,

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it's up to us to have, like, the tools and the education and whatnot ready for people as they realize. Like, I feel like almost,

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like, I

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mean, it's almost a meme. Right? Like, Bitcoin doesn't need marketing. Like, the the government and PayPal and stuff do the marketing for Bitcoin. Yeah. And it kinda feels the same way with Nasr. It's like, you know, as long as we build good tools,

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the powers that be will will kind of be pushing people in our direction. We just have to be ready for them. Would you agree? Yeah. And it and it feels very much like, you know, Bitcoin, early Bitcoin, or even, like, mid stage Bitcoin. I don't even know where we are in the in the grand scheme of Bitcoin, but,

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you know, people realize that, okay. It's cool. It's a cool toy,

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You know?

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But only when your money is under attack, you know, by extreme, you know, inflation and things like that, when people are starting to start to realize the value of the technology that's been sitting there. So a lot of Bitcoiners have been building up, make making tools better, making the wallets better,

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just just to prepare for when that moment, you you know, when shit hits the fan. Right. So I feel like we're kind of like that right now in the nostril space where we're just building these tools. You know, maybe people don't really see the value yet, but, you know, I think they're starting to see it. We know we're starting to see with, like, TikTok getting banned in the US potentially,

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and and the censorship in Brazil and, like, an uptick in censorship, I I heard, I think, Rumble was getting an uptick in,

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censorship requests. So it's increasing every day, and I think it's going to increase over time once more and more, societal unrest increases via via just these issues with inflation in the financial system. Like, I I feel like, people in power, they're gonna start to panic, and they're gonna feel like they need to rely on censorship to just to calm people down before they, you know, take their pitchforks out.

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So I I can see it increasing in censorship over time.

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Nostar, Pitchfork Technology.

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A rumble is an interesting thing that you mentioned because that's something that

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I just feel like we see so often, which is,

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you know, a new centralized platform gets created and it's pitched as, oh, we're not gonna do the censorship, but the big guys do. And then it just it's just a time thing. Like, it's like a time and adoption thing. Like, if if they grow big enough,

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and enough time goes on, like, eventually, you start seeing censorship, and then everyone always acts surprised.

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They're like, how the fuck did that happen? Because at the end of the day, they they have to play by the rules and the laws of the country that they're in. It's not like you can escape that. And, and a lot of governments, they kinda work together to, you know, take down we just saw with Pirate Bay. Right? Like, the entire world went against them. And only one I know It's still up? Yeah. Yeah. So they basically have to, like, create mirrors across the world and fight against find fight against it every day, but they, like, raided their apartments. They, like you know, it was it was very intense.

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So it just shows that if if you have this one centralized

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system,

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like a server that you can take down 1 server, like, this is the issue. You need to create mirrors like like like Pirate Bay did.

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So Nostra kinda is innately set up to be mirrored everywhere, which is really nice. So you've mentioned and I've mentioned Bitcoin multiple times.

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You know, I had,

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Stuart

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and Hazard on,

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last week,

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which really great conversation.

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Those guys are fucking legends. And one of the topics was, like, this idea of, like, Bitcoin developers and, like,

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Nostr being, like, almost like a child project to Bitcoin, kinda getting, like, birthed from Bitcoin.

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You were a Bitcoin developer first, like, a a pretty prolific Bitcoin developer, and then you came to Noster.

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How do you think about that relationship?

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It's interesting. I've you know, a lot of the cryptography within Nasr is you know, basically just comes from Bitcoin. You know, the guy who made Nasr is was a Bitcoiner. He's working on, like, side chain stuff,

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and and, like, lnurl.

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So, you know, that's how I got into it. Just there's just through association. I don't know if it was just a stroke of luck and just happened to be a lot of Bitcoiners in the space at the time. Like, this could've came this could've come up, you know, outside of Bitcoin. It's just it's not, like, attached to Bitcoin in any way.

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It just happens to have a lot of, like, momentum from that from that space. And it makes sense. There's people who really care about, you know, freedom of speech and and censorship resistance. Like,

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out of any group of people, I think Bitcoiners care about censorship resistant the most and and understand the importance of it. So you're so you're starting to see, like, other protocols in the social space that don't really care about censorship resistance as much, such as, like, ActivityPub.

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And if you go on to ActivityPub and, like, Mastodon,

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you know, it's it's, like, more censored than Twitter.

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You have, like, these, like, factions that are all sent like, muting each other and blocking each other, and it's you know, that you can clearly didn't it's very clear they didn't optimize for, censorship resistance.

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So it's just nice that there we have a community who cares about that and wants to bake that into these new technologies.

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There's a feature, not a bug. I mean, another example is

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Farcaster,

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birthed by shitcoiners.

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Yeah. And you can see what they they they what they optimize for. Right? They, like, they they have their NFTs and, you know, their shit coins or you can promote on the and then maybe that's fine. Like, maybe they could have that, and maybe they can grow that and find people who are interested in that stuff. But, obviously, as a Bitcoiner, it's just it's extremely off putting, and I I wouldn't even touch it. But I sometimes I worry that, like, there's a lot of normies out there. Like, they see Nostra projects, and they feel the same thing about the Bitcoin aspect of our app.

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So, you know, I think there I'm glad that there are other apps like Nas Social who are doing non Bitcoin stuff because we definitely wanna just grow the network as a whole. We don't want it to only focus on Bitcoiners.

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But it is nice that we have a lot of, 2 apps for Bitcoiners because But the Bitcoin the Bitcoiners are like the seed. We're like the we're the we're the beginning.

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I think that's a feature, not a bug. Like, I think,

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it's just a time thing. Right? I mean, obviously, other communities and non Bitcoiners will come in. But, I mean, if we do not start right, like, they might turn into Bitcoiners,

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just because of Zaps. I mean so let's talk about Zaps a little bit. You

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you created the original Zaps spec.

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You quote, unquote,

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invented Zaps.

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Like, how do you look back on that moment? Like, how is

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what are your thoughts on Zaps?

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I mean yeah. I mean, it's a hard problem. Like, I I thought about how to do it for, like, a year before I I did the spec. I didn't think it was actually possible.

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And it and it is it's still not perfect. Right? Like, you can fake zaps.

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Yeah. Not they're not verifiable. They're not verifiable.

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Most people don't realize that. Yeah. So, like, for what I do is my my lightning node at home, my lightning node can verify it. So for noncustodial

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zapping, it's fine because I I know that every zap I see is is has been verified from my node. But it gets a little bit complicated on when you're using things like l b and custodial zappers because you're kinda trusting.

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But other so, basically, the way that it works is that your client just says, I only I only trust zaps from this,

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this specific pub key. So, you know, I I put that pub key on my lightning address, right, which is, like, only so, basically, other clients can look at that pub key and say, okay. I'm gonna verify all zaps from that pub key. So, there's some very strong guarantees that no other people can fake zap put fake zaps on my notes.

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But, you know, people who are wanna fake zaps can do it on their own notes, which is which is why I've never really implemented zap views on my in in Domus. Because without web of trust, it can be easily abused, and people can game them.

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So, yeah, it's not perfect, but, you know, it's But I don't understand.

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Aren't

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so so can't

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can't the broadcast

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the can't someone else broadcast a Zap event like the sender broadcast a Zap event? Yeah. So anyone can let everyone anyone can send a Zap, like a fake Zap to my to my, note Yeah. But it won't display in Domus because

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what Domus does, it it'll look at the, my ln URL endpoint. It'll get the pub key that that it is. It's expecting only zaps from this pub key, that either that I set.

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So that's why no one can send fig zaps to them, at least to my post.

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So that's it's just like it is somewhat trusted. Like, you're you're you're relying on trusted Lightning nodes to verify,

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Zaps.

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It's it's a little bit trick. It's kind of confusing, but it is it adds some guarantee. So you cannot use at least use it to you you can at least use it to, you know, filter spam and things like that if we ever decide to do that. But

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okay, so, I mean, it's but let's just continue further here because I'm trying to understand,

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because, like, the the dream the dream is is is is that they are verifiable or that I can, you know, verify them myself

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or my client can

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so that, you know, you can do interesting

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like you said, spam mitigation is is interesting.

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Insight into, like, oh, like, you know, some kind of trending analysis or something. You know? Like, what do people find value in? Like, what is the content that they they enjoy the most? Like, maybe that's higher signal, you know, kind of a value for value system. Okay. So let's say so I'm I'm a Domus user.

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I receive I receive zaps to my own node. That's what I do. Yeah.

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Like, the Domus client isn't

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verifying that they're not hitting my node to see if those are real zaps or not. Right?

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So all all the Domus client does is it looks at your

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Lightning address. Okay. It pulls down some information from your Lightning address, which is Pub key. The pub key that you're that that is we call it the Zapper pub key. It's it's the it's the zapper is the thing that sends zaps, and it's usually, like, your lightning node, for instance.

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So it's like I'm only going to

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show a zap on your

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post if it's from your zapper, from your lightning node. So in some sense,

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it's,

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no one can fake zaps to your post because, you know, Domus is only looking for zaps from your node. So So you're looking for like, the receiver sending an event. Like, as a receiver, I'm sending an event. I received this app, and I'm sending a noster event out. Your lightning node sends Is sending. When it confirms that it received a payment. So that's how we kinda do it. But not all clients do it that way. Right? Some do it based off a broadcaster event. But the broadcaster can also broadcast the event. Right? What is a broadcast? I don't know. I mean, the person sending the Zap can broadcast the Zap event. Right?

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Yeah. You could, in theory, do that, and then,

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I I mean, Domus doesn't do that. It's you it relies on Lightning nodes to do that.

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Also, part of the reason I'm, like, trying to dive deep here is because it really,

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it can be frustrating for people,

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myself included, if you, like,

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you send a Zap,

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and it doesn't show up.

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You know what I mean? Yeah. Like, you send you you you send someone 10,000 sats. You, like, really appreciate their content,

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and then it just doesn't display.

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That might is that's because the receiver's note is fail is failing to broadcast the event. Right? There could yeah. There could be lots of different reasons. Like, it's not you know, maybe the the zapper is not sending it to the right relays. So something you put inside the zap is like, okay. I if I send you money, I want you to send this app to these relays that I specify so I I can at least see it that when you send it back. Yeah. So there's all these, like, subtle,

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things that and if if anything doesn't work properly, then it might not show up. Usually, it works most of the time.

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And but this is the complexities of this, like, building this in a decentralized way.

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But it works most of the time. I I don't usually have too many issues. It's very, very rare that I run into a Zap or that doesn't work.

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You know, it might be,

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I feel like it happens usually when you send large zaps, but it's probably just because those are the ones you remember not showing up. You know? You're, like, you you're not, like, paying attention to see if, like, 42 zaps showed up or not.

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Yeah. But, like and and there's nothing really special about you know, the zapspec could be generalized, and it's something we've been thinking about a lot as well, which is, you know, there's, like, you know, people are doing e cache a lot more now, and maybe, like, in the future, we'll have Arc.

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So we're probably gonna generalize those app specs so that you can kind of

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show that you sent zaps from any l two.

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So there's lots of cool stuff coming, I think. Yeah. That was my next question because, like, I eCash seems like it could be promising,

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particularly because you can

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lock it to the pub key.

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It's almost like

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a a a Nostra more of a Nostra native kind of payment protocol.

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Yeah. I mean, I've I've been thinking about it a lot recently just from an idea that the Mutiny Wallet guys, had Yeah. Which got me really thinking,

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which is, like, if you really wanna do a non custodial lightning wallet, which is incredibly hard to do. And, like, the new guys are doing it, like, probably the best out of anyone to try to make that work.

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At the end of the day, you still need to,

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be online to receive if it's just noncustodial.

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Right. So, you know, maybe Fedimint

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makes non custodial just a better UX. Because what if your when your phone's offline,

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maybe your your you receive zaps to the Mint. And then when your phone comes online, you can sweep funds from the Mint into your non custodial Lightning node. It's like a hybrid custodial mode. Yeah. So it's it's interesting because it's actually making non custodial better UX. Like, it may it's making lightning custodial

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or lightning noncustodial better UX. So, you know, these two technologies are complementing each other. It is very complicated, obviously. But, you know, if if Domus were to do a, a wallet, which I do wanna do in the app, it would probably and I I Domus always represents, you know, what's the right way to do it? Like, right in terms of, like,

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maximum pain for myself in the sense of, like, property centralization.

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And I've I've always wanted Domus to represent that idea of just let's do things the hard but right way. And I'm gonna I will spend the year working on the technology like Nostra DB to make it work.

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And I don't it might take a bit longer, but it's it's worth it. Right? We're trying to build better systems

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instead of Yeah.

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The dream is like mutiny built into a client. Exactly. I mean, mutiny is also kind of a client, but just not it's not as it's more of a payments client. But

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Yeah. And you yeah. And it does support NWC, so you can connect to it from, Domus. But it's and the Mutiny NWC is very weird because

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mutiny needs to be online.

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It needs to be the app needs to be open when you're when you're zapping with NWC. So you have to, like, zap with NWC, switch to the app, and then have it go through on mutiny, go back. So it's it's a weird interaction. So I'm obviously, we wanna improve the UX on that. Well, the Fedimint side might fix that. Exactly. I don't know. Yeah. If it's sending from the sediment,

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maybe

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maybe it fixes that. Actually but it still needs a sign, I think. So I don't think it does.

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Yeah. And then and this opens up a whole new area of, like, what does it mean if, let's say,

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multiple Domus wallets are offline and, you know you know, and now you wanna send money between 2 users on the Domus Mint. So now you're actually doing an eCash transfer on the Mint.

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But how do you represent that as a zap? Like, you can't like, right now, Zaps are kind of hard coded to to to Lightning.

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But I I I've been thinking recently that we should just drop the the Lightning invoice out of the Zap and just make it more general. So you can just it could just be like an e cash Zap or a a Lightning Zap.

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Yeah. Yeah. I mean and, obviously, Fediment is custodial, but at least it's a multisync custodian, and at least it's,

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at least you have privacy from the custodian, which are 2 2 major benefits of Fetterman, which is why I'm very excited about it. And I do like I like their idea.

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We just had I just had them on as well.

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I like the idea of the hybrid model where, like Yeah. Okay. Once you hit a certain amount, then it, like, opens your own sovereign lightning channel.

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Because, like, what that that is a a

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a perfect example of the pain point we see on Nostra. Right? Which is, like, a new Nostra user comes in,

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and they receive, you know, a 1,000 sats or something, like, there's no way for them it's dust. At that point, it's dust, and there's no way for them to take custody of that, period.

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It's less than a transaction fee on chain.

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Yeah. And, like and I think people criticize me rightly, right, at the very of Nostra when I just was just trying to get more and more people on and get more people experience experiencing zaps. So I just I just pushed everyone to Vaulted Vaulted at the Vaulted at the Vaulted at the Vaulted at the Vaulted at the and then I'm like, yeah. It's it works for now. They have Zap integration,

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but then we saw the the issue with that when they, you you know, they rugged the US market and they they left.

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I mean, to be fair, they

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didn't take any money. That's true. Yeah. They just won't let you receive. You can you you can still send out. Run run is a harsh word. It's a bit strong, but I mean, I've I I feel bad because I was, like, sounding the alarm on the wall of the Satoshi,

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and

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and,

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yeah, I just I feel bad about that,

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because I ended up talking to him, and he's an awesome dude, and he definitely means well. He kinda just was a victim of his own success. Like, you know, he that's a problem with the custodian. It's very hard to unwind a custodian.

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And so, like, as more and more people use it, it's like, what do I do now?

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And,

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yeah, I I think just pulling out of the US market, at least temp you know, as a as a short term

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escape valve or release valve,

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was the best of a lot of bad

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options.

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Yeah. And just and and so, like, I guess the only alternative was, like, LB was building an integration. So, okay, I was like, okay. I guess I'll push people to LB now, and then LB is like, I think they're also feeling

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the the pressure of success because now they had to do, like, a, like,

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a a invite code to get in. And I'm like, oh, man. This is not a, like, this is not a solution that I can keep pushing people to. Because we're running out of decentralized

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custodians to push people to. So I'm like, okay. Maybe it's time to actually sit down and try to solve this problem for real,

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in a non custodial way, which is why I've also been really interested

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in I've been playing with Arc recently.

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I'm pretty sure I have That requires a soft fork. Right?

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So I think there's missed some confusion about that because

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you need if you if you want non interactivity, which is really good, like, it's really good, then you need a soft fork. But it works today on Bitcoin with a multisig and and a server,

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from what I understand. Because I was running some code recently. It's like this guy, Steven what's name? Steven Roost? Steven Rose? I think he worked on Liquid at Blockstream. I think he has one of the few implementations that works with Bitcoin Core. It's like a Rust project, and he, like, I knew him from the Lightning community. So he, like, invited me to his project.

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So I've been playing with, like, one of the few Rust implementations of Arc. So I think I think only Ben I see I saw Ben Carmen on the on the on the repo. I don't know. I guess he's the only other person, me and him. But I was playing with it. I'm like, this is just so simple because you just create a taproot address,

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and you can start receiving offline, like, right away just to from an on chain address. We're like, this is somewhat magic. I don't really fully understand how it works yet, but, you know, I'm still exploring that as a potential if it works. We'll see. Yeah. Well, when you figure out how it works, it'd be great if you could let us know.

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In the meantime,

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back, I mean, back to custodianship,

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yeah, it just feels like I mean, it's such a heavy liability

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thing to do,

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and to try and do it in a way that doesn't end up in jail requires so much different compliance headaches.

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Yeah. That,

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it's almost like every custodian just eventually goes down, like, a hell hole becomes a hell hole.

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I mean, like, even, like, best intentions Alby, I think,

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limits the amount you can receive on this app,

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which I found out because,

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Marty Maumee was using it. And when

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he he released the Satoshi emails that he had from Satoshi, I tried to zap him more than Albie would let him, so he just didn't get the money.

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So it provides it like, there's all these different hurdles. And one of the things I think is really cool about what Munnini is doing

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is using Gnostr to build

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to to give the user an option of who their custodian is So it Yeah. Unbundles

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the app developer

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from the custodianship in the first place. Like, when you launch it and you wanna choose a Fediment, it brings you to essentially,

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like a Noster web of trust kind of rating system, like a censorship resistant trust pilot, and then you choose your custodian.

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And then hopefully there's more competition there, there's more distribution

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between different pediments,

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and

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the key thing being that it

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means that they're not the ones holding the funds. Exactly.

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Yeah. And and this leads to this whole idea of, like, free banking, you know, in cyberspace with, like, and maybe Nostra as a way to find these communities, these sort of feminine communities.

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Because it is a very social thing. Right? Like, finding,

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like, what group of people you wanna associate with.

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So maybe Nostra can help, you know, propel FEDIMENT and and FEDI into more usage.

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And, you know, it wouldn't wouldn't be that surprising. Like, Nostra has already done that for lightning, and,

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you know, maybe it can help with, FEDIAdmin as well.

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To the freaks. Yeah. I was a little bit confused. I thought,

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we had spam in the chat, but but it was just average Gary posting the entire Cypherpunk manifesto,

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in the comments.

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As always, freaks, if you're listening,

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on one of our other streams,

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if you're on YouTube

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or

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Twitter until the Twitter account gets banned,

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The live chat that you see on the screen is at citildispatch.com/stream.

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That is powered by ZapStream,

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a noster first

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Bitcoin integrated,

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live streaming

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app, which is fucking dope.

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So zaps. Let's keep let's keep on the zap tangent.

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You added zaps. We all got really excited.

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We sent a lot of money between each other,

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and then Apple came and and threw your lunch on the ground. Yep.

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What's what's next for Domus and Zaps? I mean, up now at this point, I guess, like,

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if you I haven't, like, reinstalled the app in a while, but when you install the app for the first time, I think there's, like, no zaps. No zaps. Like You if you, like, run the script, there's, like, a link. You click the link. You run the script,

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then they just all appear.

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What are your thoughts? Like, what what's the path forward?

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Like, that script is, like,

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That script is against their terms of service. If, like, if someone reported me, like, they Thomas would probably get taken down. Like, it's not a long term solution. Right? What script?

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Exactly.

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So I know it's it's, and it's really confusing for people. They're, like, oh, I I thought you could zap notes and stuff. It's, like, well, Apple Apple if it build onto the story, I mean, it's been told a lot of times, but they basically said that,

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that having a zap button on a post

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is considered,

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potentially selling digital content. You're opening the window for selling digital content, and that's enough for them to,

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say that it's not allowed. But,

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but they still wanna support all these Venmo, like, apps, like,

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Cash App and Venmo.

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So you are still allowed to do direct peer to peer, transfer. So you can zap profiles on Domus. I think that's, like, a very

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misunderstood thing that you can, yeah, you can still zap profiles.

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By default without running the script.

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Yeah. But as far as I understand, it's like, you know and this is with everything at Apple. They apply their rules, like, not very consistently.

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Like, as we all know, primal has

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has zaps on notes.

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So, technically, if they're following their guidelines, like, they shouldn't be allowed. But I guess they basically just paid the the ransom and, you know Well I don't understand how So there there's, like, a little bit of a conspiracy

307
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about Primal's

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wallet,

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integration,

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that

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1031, which I'm a managing partner of, is an investor in Primal and an investor in Strike.

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And Milan added a strike powered wallet directly into,

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the app.

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Me, personally,

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I think

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the holy grail is mutiny

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in one of these clients. Like, I like,

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yeah. Basically, the high level view is mutiny in the fucking client.

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A Fediment choose your Fediment, you know, e cash, choose whatever custodian you want. No KYC whatsoever.

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Milan

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thinks differently.

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You know, the guy's the guy's a machine in the best way possible.

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He just constantly ships. He's, like, super focused.

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But his holes this the whole reason he has strike there or one of the main reasons he has strike there,

325
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in my opinion, is because it allows you to buy in the app,

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and you can buy $5 worth of Bitcoin when you start. And at that point, if you buy,

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he gives Apple their vig. Yeah. Yeah. And so

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he believes and once again, I agree with you that, like, also Apple, you know Who knows? Like, maybe Prama gets so big at some point that Apple decides that it's not enough for them. Mhmm. But he believes that's a key aspect for why

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Absolutely.

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He's able to

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have it built in and not not get banned from iOS. It's not a breaking of the terms and services because they get their in app purchases.

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They get their little cut, whatever, if you buy an app. And my my theory on it was always like, okay. Maybe they just treat SaaS as, like, an in game currency at that point. So if you, like, pay for the in game currency and you're in that wallet that's not,

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where you can't add funds externally, I guess you still can do that. So it's You can still add funds externally, and then they don't get a cut if you add, like or if you receive zaps, they don't get a cut. It's only if you buy.

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Yeah. So at the end of the day, it's like, you you we're always gonna be had to jump through Apple's hoops. And, obviously, the Apple market's important, so we able we do the hoop jumping.

335
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But, you know, me, I felt very uncomfortable as as a whole being, like, building

336
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like, in some sense, you know, this project that I I I really truly care about. You know? And and they effectively have censored me. I the the version on the App Store is not

337
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what my vision for Noshita Will's vision. Yeah. My my my vision for what I wanna do, like, what I was trying to do. So at some point, I'm like, you know, I got really pissed off. I I actually built

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a virtual machine interpreter and then put it inside the app just so I can get around it,

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which is against the rules. That's how much I fucking hate them. And, because how the script works? It's actually a WASM interpreter.

340
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So WASM is like, a web technology that it's like web assembly.

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And I built a a a c I built it a while back, but I built a a an interpreter for this WASM from scratch and see. And I I just put it in domas, and now it executes these things called nostril scripts.

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And all it does is just set a Boolean flag in config, which, again, super against the rules. Yeah. But I eventually wanna use Nostril script for for more things, like custom feeds and But the main reason was

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to feeds and and But the main reason was to enable to that that Zap enabling script. Yeah. So and, and then I didn't write the script. I mean,

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I

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I mean,

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I that's what the script. What script?

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You can find it if you wanna look for it. But,

348
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yeah. I'm probably gonna just get banned eventually. And so I need a I need an alternative about that. So I started building a,

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a multi platform client in Rust, and I'm calling it I'm probably just gonna call it domus, because I I I see it as everything I've learned from building domus iOS, and I wanna build, like, the proper version of domus.

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And, yeah, we can talk into we can talk more about, like, what that is. Yeah. Let's talk about that. I mean, I I think besides

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you should, first of all, definitely call it damus.

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I I think besides

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the the fact that you don't want to just be completely beholden to Tim Apple,

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I I think there's something to be said when you're recommending

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something to

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new users

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that regardless of what their platform is,

358
00:33:17.620 --> 00:33:22.039
there's a version of it. And even I think even when they're it's a shittier version,

359
00:33:22.419 --> 00:33:37.225
you know, it's like, okay, the Android people are or have a better version or the web, the the desktop people have a better version. As long as there's still something there for whatever for if you use iOS or whatever, that it makes it much easier instead of saying, like,

360
00:33:37.830 --> 00:34:11.825
you know, install domus if you're on Exactly. IOS. Install amethyst. If you're on Android, just say, how do you spell that? Okay. Do that. Oh, you're on desktop. Install Gossip. It's like, no. Just domus. And you just say it, and then they can It it makes a new platform. It makes marketing domus really hard because I'm like, just go download our app. And they're like, okay. Where is it on the app Google Play Store? I'm like, I guess Yeah. They get Primal. Like and the Primal is really good, and it's it's probably good that people are trying different apps. But it would be nice if I could say, like, oh, go download Domus for Android or desktop. You just say you just say download Domus. Right? And then the user, whatever

361
00:34:13.349 --> 00:34:16.410
whatever platform they're on, what they can just

362
00:34:16.869 --> 00:34:22.010
they can just download the the the relevant version. But, anyway, let's talk about this. So, like, you've been teasing

363
00:34:22.615 --> 00:34:23.115
multiplatform

364
00:34:23.415 --> 00:34:31.755
for a while. I mean, I there's something called, like, note deck that looks badass. Like, let's talk about this. What's what's the plan? Where are we at? What are you thinking?

365
00:34:32.360 --> 00:34:33.100
Yeah. So,

366
00:34:34.200 --> 00:34:39.420
a lot of it a lot of the technology I built you know, I I've been working on this new technology called Nostra DB,

367
00:34:39.835 --> 00:34:46.735
and it is was inspired by a relay called stir fry. So stir fry is basically the reason why Nostra works today. Is stir fry unmaintained?

368
00:34:47.250 --> 00:34:48.150
It is unmaintained.

369
00:34:48.530 --> 00:34:53.190
Is that an issue? I think the guy who is working on it is, like, now working on, like, some Ethereum project. So it's like,

370
00:34:53.650 --> 00:34:54.390
that sucks.

371
00:34:55.170 --> 00:34:56.470
So I'm solve that.

372
00:34:57.235 --> 00:35:02.215
But it's, like, it works, and it's really fast. It just doesn't have things that are really important, like, off.

373
00:35:02.675 --> 00:35:03.815
But you can search.

374
00:35:04.730 --> 00:35:07.630
And search and things like that. And I don't know if they'll ever add that.

375
00:35:08.170 --> 00:35:08.670
So,

376
00:35:08.970 --> 00:35:17.535
you know, it it's it is kinda shitty, but the design of it's really amazing. And I wanted to basically put a a stir fry relay inside of Domus because it was so fast.

377
00:35:18.155 --> 00:35:22.095
So I decided to build something that was similar to SQLite. So SQLite is this,

378
00:35:22.980 --> 00:35:27.240
very amazing library that allows you to embed a a SQL Server into any application.

379
00:35:27.940 --> 00:35:35.454
And a lot of people were using SQLite for for not sure stuff, but, you know, SQL doesn't really scale very well for Nostra queries because Nostra queries are very dynamic.

380
00:35:35.755 --> 00:35:43.970
Lots of people can do different and so if in a in a in a SQL world, what you have to do is, you know, take that query, that nostril filter, convert it to a SQL representation,

381
00:35:44.510 --> 00:35:48.515
and then then the SQL's engine has to parse it and find a query plan.

382
00:35:48.815 --> 00:35:50.195
And it's actually quite slow.

383
00:35:50.895 --> 00:35:56.690
Whereas in the stir fry model, you just you could get a filter, and then you just look on a just basically do a really quick memory lookup.

384
00:35:57.310 --> 00:35:59.970
So that's anyway, so I designed Azure DB to be like SQLite

385
00:36:00.430 --> 00:36:01.970
the stir fry version of SQLite.

386
00:36:02.315 --> 00:36:02.815
Okay.

387
00:36:03.195 --> 00:36:19.490
And, right now, it's in Domus today. So, actually, all the notes coming into Domus that actually gets actually verifies the signatures and all these things. I I don't use the database for everything yet. I use it for, the profile searches. So if you ever do if you're ever tagging someone within Domus, you'll notice this it has the best tagging in any Nostra client just because of Nostra DB.

388
00:36:19.905 --> 00:36:21.845
And you just tell it fast. It is so fast.

389
00:36:22.465 --> 00:36:29.445
Anyway, so, you know, I spent probably, like, 8 months building Noster DB. It was really I've never built a database from scratch before, but it was super fun.

390
00:36:30.150 --> 00:36:38.010
And and there's another really important reason why I I built this, because I actually do wanna implement the outbox model. So there's if you're if you're if you're following any

391
00:36:38.375 --> 00:36:44.555
stuff within Noster, you you know, this is controversy with it. This is We had a chat about that on dispatch too. Exactly.

392
00:36:45.335 --> 00:36:51.040
And it's it is it is a better way to it's a more decentralized way to build a public square on on Austria.

393
00:36:51.420 --> 00:37:00.145
And the basic It takes it takes it removes reliance on big relays. Right? Because, basically, when you send an event, you say, you know, check these relays,

394
00:37:01.244 --> 00:37:14.355
for me going forward. Exactly. Like that. Yeah. Exactly. I mean, the early days what we did I mean, I just did the dumbest possible thing, which is, like, okay. I put a few handful of Bootstrap relays. Right. And then we open up Domus. It just only ever talks to those those relays.

395
00:37:14.815 --> 00:37:23.829
It sends and receives. It it reads from all of them, and it sends to all of them. So it's really simple. It's a simple model, but it doesn't really scale to if we wanna make Nostra, like, a global thing.

396
00:37:25.329 --> 00:37:29.945
So so, yeah, so moving to something more decentralized is really important. And so the outbox model

397
00:37:30.245 --> 00:37:48.015
is, basically a little bit different where you you specify on a on your relay list the the relays you wanna, read from and the relays that you read to. And then whenever you're on your client, whenever you're constructing your timeline or whenever you're pulling notes from some person's profile, you actually have to look at the relay list, see which relays they're using,

398
00:37:48.315 --> 00:38:00.160
and then and and a pull from the appropriate relay. So instead of just say, I'm only gonna pull from these 5 relays, which, you know, most people are might not even be on, you now you look on a you look on the relay list to get things more intelligently from different relays.

399
00:38:01.420 --> 00:38:12.330
So the only reason why I've never implemented this because for the longest time, I you know, Domus was really dumb. Like, I was having really hard on on mobile, the there was really huge performance issues. So I was actually selectively

400
00:38:12.630 --> 00:38:16.330
only verifying signatures for certain notes, like, really important ones, like profiles.

401
00:38:17.590 --> 00:38:21.275
So I realized that if we if I switch to this outbox model,

402
00:38:21.975 --> 00:38:23.435
I need to have a much faster,

403
00:38:24.055 --> 00:38:26.250
wait. Like, I wanna actually verify all the notes.

404
00:38:26.810 --> 00:38:34.585
So, anyway, so NotSure DB allows me to verify all the notes. And another really important thing is, one of the big concerns that I had

405
00:38:35.145 --> 00:38:38.285
was if I'm fetching from random relays all the time in the outbox model,

406
00:38:38.665 --> 00:38:39.705
they could be sending me,

407
00:38:40.665 --> 00:38:52.545
things that don't match my filter. They could be trying to, like, you know, screw with me, with based off the notes they send. So I wanna make I wanna make sure that it was really robust. So when you're doing a local query or when you're doing a query, it's just you're getting the results you expect.

408
00:38:53.025 --> 00:38:54.785
So not sure DB just allows me to,

409
00:38:55.744 --> 00:39:17.755
combine those two effects, which is verify all the notes plus not rely on the results from other relays because what and Asha DB is actually not just a debate at database. It's actually a relay. So you can actually query it like a like a relay. So in in the so, anyway so all of this is leading up to the design for, like, my my vision for a really good Narsha company that that that properly input, implements the outbox model

410
00:39:18.150 --> 00:39:18.650
is,

411
00:39:19.270 --> 00:39:23.450
this idea of, you know, you're building an app, and you own the app only ever talks to the local relay.

412
00:39:23.750 --> 00:39:25.049
Okay. And then,

413
00:39:25.385 --> 00:39:32.125
you know you know, so and then the network code can be, like, doing the outbox model. It can be doing other models, and it's just dumping data into the into Nostra DB.

414
00:39:32.985 --> 00:39:37.350
So this just kinda separates, like, nastiness that could happen on the relay side and,

415
00:39:37.890 --> 00:39:47.335
and and then and then your UI code is much simpler because you're only ever talking to a local relay. Anyway, this is very technical, but it's, like, my vision for building a proper national client. I don't think anyone else is kinda doing this. Okay.

416
00:39:47.974 --> 00:39:55.300
But, and I and I just wanted to make it as fast as possible. So it's all lots of new tech involved. So, Anyway so that's that was the the start of the the multiplatform client.

417
00:39:56.560 --> 00:40:02.885
Okay. That's a lot. Sorry. No. This is good. This is good. Outbox model, I I mean, I think is just

418
00:40:04.224 --> 00:40:09.125
a massive improvement. That makes sense to me. You just need to be able to do it in a performant way.

419
00:40:10.500 --> 00:40:17.320
I mean, because the the concern is is we haven't really seen real censorship yet. I mean, we don't have that many users yet of Nostr.

420
00:40:19.135 --> 00:40:31.580
And if you have couple big relays and they just, you know, knock out a pub key and say, you know, we don't like caps. We're not gonna we're not gonna broadcast Odell's notes, then a lot of people just will never see them,

421
00:40:32.360 --> 00:40:49.270
even if they're on some other relay or whatever. So Yeah. It's good for us to do that, and it takes liability away from the big relay operators. And Like, I don't really wanna I I run a relay just for, like, you know, base base level reliability. So my users, like, if everything else is shit, then it'll still You wanna, like, control your infrastructure to a degree?

422
00:40:49.570 --> 00:41:05.440
Yeah. But, like Control your destiny. You don't need to use the Domus relay. Like, you can just remove it and use any relay you want. And I and I want doms to keep working regardless of what relays you choose. But maybe in the future, you you know, choosing relays will be a very niche thing for niche. Most people won't manually choose relays.

423
00:41:05.820 --> 00:41:18.800
No. Right? But at the outbox model, you don't really need to. In some sense, you just need to know a place where you can get all the relay lists. Maybe that's purple pages. Maybe that's, you know, some shelling point in the nosh Nosh ecosystem. That's really the only thing that's important, in the outbox model.

424
00:41:20.400 --> 00:41:23.060
Oh, by the way, while we're on that topic of big relays,

425
00:41:24.560 --> 00:41:30.175
I just wanted to thank you for your grand social experiment of waking up one morning and just nuking the Domus relay.

426
00:41:31.035 --> 00:41:32.975
I don't think any notes were lost.

427
00:41:33.755 --> 00:41:37.340
A lot of profiles I I realized that profiles don't get actually broadcasted

428
00:41:37.720 --> 00:41:59.650
as often as as notes and, like, duplicated. So a lot of people just lost their profile, and they had to, like, reupload it. They had to edit their profile again. That was the main main Well, like, the bio and stuff and, like, where their image was hosted? Yeah. It's yeah. The description of, like, their username and and the profile, the banner that they have. So a lot of those got newts, and they just had to, like, update their profile again. So that was be fucked up if you will.

429
00:42:00.805 --> 00:42:06.505
Well, just like everyone's like, oh, it's like, you know, Domus relays centralizing to Nasr. It's like nuked it, and people didn't even realize.

430
00:42:07.445 --> 00:42:07.945
Yeah.

431
00:42:08.405 --> 00:42:08.984
I mean,

432
00:42:10.470 --> 00:42:15.830
the memes are great. I a lot of I mean, at least they realized after they realized it happened. But, yeah, I don't

433
00:42:16.685 --> 00:42:28.319
but then that that's always, like, the thing is, like, maybe some notes were lost, and I just they weren't notable. So So I had one person who was building an ASR client, and they only were using the Domus relay, and they're like, you just killed my project. I'm like, well,

434
00:42:28.859 --> 00:42:29.680
lesson learned.

435
00:42:30.059 --> 00:42:31.359
Don't rely on one relay.

436
00:42:33.235 --> 00:42:36.215
Are you gonna do the nukening regularly? Or

437
00:42:36.675 --> 00:43:07.110
I think the just the way that stir fry is designed, there's no easy way to migrate to new versions. You basically I basically had to do it just to migrate to a new version. So, like, anytime I wanna update update stir fry, then I'll have to nuke it. But maybe if it's abandoned now, then I don't need to upgrade it anymore. Is that just because it's so large? I mean, I upgraded to Stir fry Relay, and I just migrated the database. Yeah. I mean, some of the updates require, a database update, and and you and there's no migration step in stir fry from what I've seen. Well, it sounds like we either need

438
00:43:08.465 --> 00:43:11.765
we need, someone to pick up maintenance of stir fry, or

439
00:43:12.465 --> 00:43:18.440
we need a a new dominant relay because I have a lot of the network is using stir fry, and it's,

440
00:43:20.119 --> 00:43:26.424
it's the only thing that's maintained right now. It's the only thing that's, like, fast enough to handle. But maybe, like, once more clients switch to

441
00:43:27.125 --> 00:43:33.990
Outbox and the the load can be distributed across more relays, maybe that'll help. I'm not really I'm not sure. I think it's still important that we have Surfride.

442
00:43:34.630 --> 00:43:36.090
But, yeah, someone should definitely

443
00:43:36.470 --> 00:43:51.170
help out. I'm I'm I've been considering just hacking on it. At least I I don't know. I don't know. We'll see. So you I mean, I get so you didn't really answer the quest question. We we you don't know when the next nukening will be, but it will happen, expect that. When I run out of disk space.

444
00:43:51.970 --> 00:43:52.470
Okay.

445
00:43:53.170 --> 00:43:53.670
Noted.

446
00:43:55.170 --> 00:43:56.790
That was a question from,

447
00:43:57.170 --> 00:44:00.069
weirdo robot in the chat, so I felt compelled to ask.

448
00:44:01.395 --> 00:44:01.635
I,

449
00:44:02.355 --> 00:44:03.895
okay. So let's go back to multiplatform.

450
00:44:04.355 --> 00:44:06.375
So you did a bunch of,

451
00:44:07.555 --> 00:44:12.980
like, prep work essentially to to build the base of of of this new chapter of DAMAS.

452
00:44:14.240 --> 00:44:18.740
What does this look like in practice? A a desktop client, an Android client, and

453
00:44:19.095 --> 00:44:21.275
an iOS client. Right? Yeah. So

454
00:44:21.655 --> 00:44:22.795
I was, like, considering,

455
00:44:23.495 --> 00:44:25.355
starting, like, let's say, a regular

456
00:44:25.655 --> 00:44:26.155
Android,

457
00:44:26.455 --> 00:44:27.035
you know,

458
00:44:27.830 --> 00:44:33.750
Jetpack Compose or whatever they're using these days. I was considering sorry. Then I then I realized it's, like, I don't wanna rebuild

459
00:44:34.285 --> 00:44:42.865
like, I don't wanna maintain multiple clients in multiple different like, I also want a desktop client. Right? So I came to this conclusion that maybe I should just try to build one client

460
00:44:43.349 --> 00:44:43.930
that works

461
00:44:44.470 --> 00:44:44.970
everywhere.

462
00:44:45.430 --> 00:44:49.930
And Okay. Luckily, the techno and the technology is almost there to do that. There's things like Flutter.

463
00:44:50.535 --> 00:44:57.194
I personally was really I looked at this thing called, eGUI, and this is the same UI framework that the Gossip client has is using.

464
00:44:57.494 --> 00:45:00.390
Okay. So Mike Dilger is also using this. I love gossip.

465
00:45:01.490 --> 00:45:04.069
Yeah. So it's I love me a good desktop client.

466
00:45:04.930 --> 00:45:18.920
Yeah. And I just I didn't have a good desktop client. Again, I don't like using web clients because I hate the web, and I'm I'm sure, like, a lot of people might know that from that from things I've said. I think, if you had Jeff told me before I got on this podcast to tell everyone how bad the web is, and I want you to be working on,

467
00:45:19.540 --> 00:45:20.680
more native clients.

468
00:45:21.460 --> 00:45:27.865
And there's a there's a really there's a really good reason for that because a lot of people don't realize that I mean, I'm sure maybe people realize it, but,

469
00:45:28.565 --> 00:45:34.070
the web the web browsers were built for the web. The the web is a it's a it's a it's a it's a it's its own protocol, like,

470
00:45:34.870 --> 00:45:35.370
HTTP,

471
00:45:35.830 --> 00:45:43.770
and and they have and they have this really messed up way for building interfaces. It's, you know, it's built on this thing called the the DOM, the document object model.

472
00:45:44.135 --> 00:45:54.359
And it was originally it just came from the fact that, you know, the web was meant for sharing documents early on. And then and and hack upon hack upon hack, we started building ways to, like, style these documents with CSS.

473
00:45:54.660 --> 00:45:56.119
And then, you know,

474
00:45:56.420 --> 00:46:01.565
20 years later, and, like, the JavaScript is, like, oh, now I can use JavaScript to, like, change text in this document.

475
00:46:02.105 --> 00:46:04.205
And then all of a sudden, now we're building, like, applications

476
00:46:04.585 --> 00:46:13.830
on top of, like, this DOM document model. And people just, like, think that this is the right way to do things from now on. But, you know, this is this is a

477
00:46:14.210 --> 00:46:28.610
that's a way for building apps for the web. Like, nostrils is its own protocol. It's not the web protocol. It's its own protocol. So we can actually build native apps again just because people forgotten how to build native apps. So I'm I'm excited for people who wanna get involved in, like, building native apps, like, Gnosh or native apps.

478
00:46:28.910 --> 00:46:36.385
You know, come come help come help me, come come help other people. I think, you know, the Gossip Project is amazing. Go help Mike, because we need more native,

479
00:46:36.865 --> 00:46:42.400
and because native is so much faster. Like, if you if you try Notek, it's like you realize, like, wow. This is how fast programs can be.

480
00:46:42.720 --> 00:46:45.359
Do you seek you seek Kieran in in,

481
00:46:45.920 --> 00:46:50.740
the live chat of his web of his web client saying he's person he feels personally attacked?

482
00:46:51.455 --> 00:46:56.675
I mean, he is, like, he is the king of building really good, downstream web apps. Kieran, when native ZapStream?

483
00:47:01.040 --> 00:47:05.940
Snort Snort, I guess, is, like, the one of the biggest web clients too.

484
00:47:06.400 --> 00:47:21.039
But, yeah. So just, you know So wait. You said if I try NoteDex, or can we try NoteDeck? I mean, you can. You can build it from source? You can build it from source. Like, obviously, I don't have, like it's it's the very alpha. I use it for monitoring multiple feeds. It's very much like TweetDeck if you use TweetDeck.

485
00:47:21.660 --> 00:47:25.680
You'd obviously just it's very it's like read only right now. But there's a public repo?

486
00:47:26.165 --> 00:47:27.285
Yep. It's a damas,

487
00:47:27.685 --> 00:47:28.425
it's github.com/domas/

488
00:47:30.724 --> 00:47:37.660
To be fair to use Gossip, you have to build from source anyway too. Oh, really? Interesting. Yeah. He, like, just refuses to release binaries.

489
00:47:37.960 --> 00:47:39.980
Yes. If you go to the It's a principal thing.

490
00:47:40.440 --> 00:47:43.900
If you go to the, the domus github, which is domus dash i0/nodeck,

491
00:47:44.984 --> 00:47:48.445
you can build it for Android. You could build it for desktop. It works on macOS, Linux.

492
00:47:48.905 --> 00:47:57.750
Oh, bad. But read only right now. Yeah. I'm still trying to get it, and it's really cool, because it's using Azure DB. So you can if you pass a filter on the command line,

493
00:47:58.210 --> 00:48:06.244
it'll every every filter you pass on the command line, it'll create a new column from that filter. So it's very flexible right now just for testing because you can it's a quick way to, like

494
00:48:06.865 --> 00:48:09.665
and, anyway, so try it out. And it's really fast, and and,

495
00:48:10.260 --> 00:48:13.380
I I want more people helping. I I have one person, colonel kind.

496
00:48:13.780 --> 00:48:18.750
He he just showed I think he works on Fediment stuff as well, but he just, like, showed up and started hacking on it. So,

497
00:48:19.785 --> 00:48:20.924
I think he's yeah.

498
00:48:21.625 --> 00:48:31.950
So come come help help me hack. So is that is that gonna be the Domus desktop client note deck, or is it for a separate project? It's gonna be the desktop client that I'm mainly supporting.

499
00:48:32.270 --> 00:48:35.250
Because I there there is a Domus desktop client, but it's, like,

500
00:48:35.550 --> 00:48:46.349
it's not it's only for macOS, and it's not really designed for desktop. What? It's just, like, the M Series Max, like, running an iPhone app.

501
00:48:46.730 --> 00:48:51.790
Yeah. Basically. And it it surprisingly works okay. Like, I I still use it, but it's not really designed for desktop.

502
00:48:53.565 --> 00:48:55.505
Got it. Okay. So we have NoteDeck.

503
00:48:55.964 --> 00:48:59.664
And then is there an Android app coming? I I think you've been teasing,

504
00:49:00.444 --> 00:49:00.944
like,

505
00:49:01.670 --> 00:49:20.980
pictures of you using, like, shitty Android phones or shitty Android tablets. Or Yeah. So Nodec runs on Android. So that's that's the whole point of the multiplatform idea. Oh, okay. This is why I've been I'd think about just calling it domus because it's kinda confusing. Because then when you're on when you're on desktop, it's called no deck. Right? But when you're on when you're on, Yeah. Just call it domus. It's called domus. I don't know.

506
00:49:21.940 --> 00:49:23.160
It's Domus desktop.

507
00:49:23.540 --> 00:49:25.960
Right? Yeah. Domus desktop. Android, Domus

508
00:49:26.260 --> 00:49:27.400
iOS. Boom.

509
00:49:27.940 --> 00:49:28.440
Exactly.

510
00:49:28.980 --> 00:49:30.965
So No tech is a cool name, though.

511
00:49:32.725 --> 00:49:33.765
I just it's just,

512
00:49:34.325 --> 00:49:37.525
I'm I'm really excited for NoteDex as well because I realized that,

513
00:49:37.980 --> 00:49:51.515
you know, as at Domus, I have to do a lot of customer support. There's a lot of and I love Nostra for this, being able to talk to people in in real time and seeing their issues. But, you know, it's getting to the point now we're getting more and more people, and it's getting harder and harder to do that on nostr.

514
00:49:52.215 --> 00:50:05.780
So NoteDex is, in some sense, also becoming my customer support tool. And I was trying to envision ways that maybe I could turn this into a product where maybe businesses could use it for customer support. Obviously, it's, like, there's not many people on us right now. But Right.

515
00:50:06.305 --> 00:50:09.445
There's lots of different ways I can go with NoteTech, that are really exciting.

516
00:50:11.105 --> 00:50:18.720
Yeah. I mean, Derek came up with a good this is a naming podcast now, but you could just call it Thomas Note Tech. Yeah. Exactly.

517
00:50:19.020 --> 00:50:21.095
Really out of the box thinking

518
00:50:21.395 --> 00:50:23.255
by, Derek in the live chat.

519
00:50:25.075 --> 00:50:33.579
I'm sure you're naming things. I mean, I always anyone who's used tweet deck can see the appeal of the it's it's it's basically the same form factor.

520
00:50:33.960 --> 00:50:34.940
Alright? Exactly.

521
00:50:35.640 --> 00:50:38.869
And I I always use TweetDeck. I I never used, like, the regular Twitter interface, so it just It's like plugging into the matrix. You know? It's like yeah. Yeah. I

522
00:50:39.785 --> 00:50:42.045
interface, so it just It's like plugging into the matrix. I mean, that's like you you get all your streams. You get a lot of custom customizability.

523
00:50:47.800 --> 00:50:50.940
Okay. So that's read only right now. Do we have a timeline on

524
00:50:53.000 --> 00:50:53.980
I guess, eventually,

525
00:50:54.280 --> 00:51:00.265
it like, I won't have to build it from source. Right? Like, there'll just be, like, an app in the Android app stores or whatever APK.

526
00:51:00.885 --> 00:51:01.385
Yep.

527
00:51:03.285 --> 00:51:04.505
Yeah. So it's

528
00:51:04.940 --> 00:51:10.700
it's it's interesting trying to design, you know, a mobile app and a desktop app at the same time, but I think it works pretty well. And,

529
00:51:11.340 --> 00:51:21.335
because I like, this is the vision, though. I I you know, I we are such a small team. I'm I'm, like it's really just me and one one of the person hacking on it. I, you know, I I I hired Daniel to, like, help on the iOS side.

530
00:51:22.195 --> 00:51:22.695
So,

531
00:51:23.450 --> 00:51:25.710
so it's really important for us to be very efficient

532
00:51:26.170 --> 00:51:29.230
with our time. So it makes sense to just build one client that works everywhere.

533
00:51:30.845 --> 00:51:34.945
But, yeah, it's still it's, it's still early compared to other projects.

534
00:51:35.645 --> 00:51:39.320
Which Daniel is that? That's not Daniele. Right? D'Thonan?

535
00:51:40.500 --> 00:51:42.280
It's, Daniela Dequinauer.

536
00:51:42.580 --> 00:51:44.820
I guess I am probably butchering his last name. But he,

537
00:51:45.515 --> 00:51:48.655
he just yeah. It's There's a lot of Daniels in Noster.

538
00:51:48.955 --> 00:51:49.775
The Dans.

539
00:51:50.795 --> 00:51:52.655
Oh, that too. I forgot. Noster.

540
00:51:53.580 --> 00:52:03.765
That was, like, a that was a dark period in Nasr history. Just everyone was Dan. I just feel bad for people who joined that day, and they're like I see Dan. People are retarded. Like, this is the dumbest thing.

541
00:52:04.145 --> 00:52:05.045
There are definitely

542
00:52:05.585 --> 00:52:09.925
there are definitely some people that joined and were like, this is the best thing ever

543
00:52:10.240 --> 00:52:21.605
and stayed around for it, and then there's others that will probably come back in, like, 2 years. Like, they they tried it. They're like, too many Dans. Like, this is called this is some type of Dan cult. They'll join us again in 2 years.

544
00:52:23.665 --> 00:52:32.140
Okay. Awesome. I mean, I so I assume, like, on the interface on Android, you don't envision it to look like TweetDeck, though. Right? Like, it'll it it'll be the same core

545
00:52:33.080 --> 00:52:44.835
code, but not to the same interface. Right? Yeah. So the the UI system I'm using, it's very flexible. So on mobile, it just it's a it's a it's like a responsive app. So on mobile Okay. It uses one timeline instead of, like, multiple.

546
00:52:45.455 --> 00:52:50.500
And we're just kinda working out, like, the kind of the UI interactions to make it feel more like a mobile app.

547
00:52:50.960 --> 00:52:56.180
But, otherwise, yeah, it's, it's all supported in one code base. So then the idea is, I guess,

548
00:52:56.705 --> 00:52:57.205
is

549
00:52:57.665 --> 00:52:59.125
that the desktop

550
00:53:02.705 --> 00:53:05.605
well, let's, like, talk long term vision. Like, the desktop,

551
00:53:06.030 --> 00:53:06.530
app,

552
00:53:07.950 --> 00:53:12.770
the desktop client and the Android app. The Android client will

553
00:53:14.724 --> 00:53:19.605
have Zaps as a first class citizen, maybe even have an integrated wallet, and then you're just gonna

554
00:53:20.644 --> 00:53:24.170
iOS is just gonna be, like, on its own little island.

555
00:53:25.030 --> 00:53:37.585
Yeah. So know what Bitcoin is? That is something I have to make a decision about down the line whether it makes sense to keep on maintaining iOS as its own separate project, or maybe I just get this working on iOS and just have one code base for everything.

556
00:53:38.340 --> 00:53:45.080
That's gonna be much further down the line, I think. Because, obviously, the yeah. The iOS app has a very nice native feel, and this is not really native feely.

557
00:53:45.545 --> 00:53:49.405
So maybe it makes more sense on Android and desktop. Why is it not native feely?

558
00:53:49.944 --> 00:54:06.585
Because it's not it's not using, any of the toolkits from Apple. So, you know, in Oh, you mean, like, Apple native feely? Yeah. So Got it. SwiftUI makes things really nice. Like, you have the navigation. You have super pretty. And, like, the the I love, like, the lack of border. Like, the media looks really nice.

559
00:54:07.285 --> 00:54:09.224
Oh, yeah. Yeah. That was actually Jack's idea,

560
00:54:10.600 --> 00:54:22.755
which is kinda cool. He's just like, I think He has some experience. I know how like, I'm like, well, if it's if it's his I I mean, he probably knows what he's talking about. He's done this before. So and then I was initially I was like, no. This is stupid. I don't like it. And then I just it kinda grew in me over time.

561
00:54:23.535 --> 00:54:30.299
And, so I definitely I definitely wanna build that into all of domicaps as well. And then correct me like I said,

562
00:54:33.720 --> 00:54:34.220
I

563
00:54:37.065 --> 00:54:39.645
haven't gone through, like, the install process of Domus

564
00:54:40.025 --> 00:54:40.525
recently.

565
00:54:40.985 --> 00:54:43.565
When you'd install Domus for the first time

566
00:54:44.480 --> 00:54:49.619
and you don't have the script enabled, I don't think it even shows zaps on posts. Right?

567
00:54:50.160 --> 00:55:06.890
Like, it doesn't say, like, 4 zaps, or does it? It does show it, but it's it doesn't show it if there's no zaps on the post. But if there are zaps on the post, it'll show the number. You just can't click it. It won't show who's zapped who. It will show who's zapped who. You can actually go in and see who's zapped who. Oh, you still can without running the script?

568
00:55:07.349 --> 00:55:26.350
Yeah. You just can't still exist. The user can see that the zaps exist. Because there shouldn't be any, like you know, I think Apple's main concern was, you know, the fact that you can initiate a payment. Yeah. No. It's important that people can see the Zaps at the very least even if they they can't zap. Yeah. Just information on the party. Yeah. It's just information on the network. It's like, I don't see why they would ban that. But

569
00:55:27.230 --> 00:55:28.270
Okay. Let's talk about

570
00:55:29.465 --> 00:55:32.205
we're kinda meandering. Let's talk about Damas purple.

571
00:55:35.145 --> 00:55:35.885
I love

572
00:55:36.265 --> 00:55:40.369
that you reset test flight and that you need to be a supporter,

573
00:55:40.990 --> 00:55:41.809
of Damas,

574
00:55:42.270 --> 00:55:47.890
to get test flight. I got I I got my my my juicy test flight access.

575
00:55:49.565 --> 00:55:53.505
I already had test flight access for, like, the first 10,000 or whatever. But, anyway,

576
00:55:54.045 --> 00:55:55.585
this time, it felt more special.

577
00:55:56.500 --> 00:55:59.800
Domus Purple. What's the vision here? What is Domus Purple,

578
00:56:00.339 --> 00:56:02.280
to the to the freaks that don't know?

579
00:56:03.380 --> 00:56:10.055
What are you thinking? So Domus Purple so, actually, I didn't even wanna do subscriptions in Domus. You know, my original idea was,

580
00:56:10.914 --> 00:56:19.535
I wanna build out the Zap, you know, Zap Commerce, I was calling it. So make it make more ways to zap things, and maybe you have ways to have stores where you can,

581
00:56:20.015 --> 00:56:34.000
and then and then you could maybe just turn on an option that says, if you wanna help support Domus, you just take a proportion of your Zap and give it to Domus. It's just Which you had. Right? Which we have. Apple fucking did. Yeah. Actually, if you use the Zap script, it's still you can unlock it. Okay. Okay.

582
00:56:34.380 --> 00:56:47.480
But, you know, it's such, like, a hidden feature now that it's it hasn't really It's, like, 5% of the zaps that I send or whatever. It's like a slider. Right? It's, like, a 5% choose 1 or up to a 100%. Yeah. Yeah. And the way that that works, actually, a lot of people may not know.

583
00:56:47.940 --> 00:56:56.945
It's not it's actually anonymous, so it just uses regular ln URL. So I don't actually see who who's doing it. So if there's some privacy stuff in there as well, it's not it's not an actual zap that you're sending to Domino's.

584
00:56:57.325 --> 00:57:14.395
And then we made it interesting. Yeah. And then we made it set up is just it's just on my lightning node, like, right next to me right now. Every all of my entire I guess, all the business operations are done out of my Bitcoin and lightning node, which is, like, this whole other thing I would love to talk about one day, which is running your business on on lightning. It's like a pain in the ass.

585
00:57:15.414 --> 00:57:25.809
I love I love it because it's just I feel like I could do everything out of my out of my computer, and that's, like, such a cool, like, cyberpunk thing. I don't depend Yeah. I mean, that part is cool. But you're also definitely missing

586
00:57:26.369 --> 00:57:42.180
like, I've had Zap failures because Oh, yeah. Because you because you use your own node and, like, your own infrastructure. And Yeah. I mean, I just gotta make sure I have enough inbound liquidity. And it's a bitch and a half to run a lightning node. I'd say this as someone who runs many Lightning nodes. Like, I'm not being a Lightning hater.

587
00:57:42.560 --> 00:57:48.335
I I was the first, I think, 10 Lightning nodes in my core Lightning node, on the network. And if you look at early,

588
00:57:48.795 --> 00:57:50.975
pictures of Lightning, you'll see, you know, g 55.

589
00:57:51.355 --> 00:57:58.349
I've been running that same node since 2018, and it's not had any any issues at all. So So core Lightning is amazing. So you should everyone should use core Lightning.

590
00:57:59.369 --> 00:58:02.349
Is it true that you can't back up easily core Lightning?

591
00:58:04.105 --> 00:58:06.105
Correlightning has amazing backup,

592
00:58:06.585 --> 00:58:26.154
features. So one of the one I use is I don't I don't have a complicated disk setup. I really just have a run multiple. I don't even run a RAID setup at all. I just have multiple disks I wanna have for redundancy. And you can actually just pass command line option that says replicate your SQLite database to this other drive. So that's been my backup, and it's never been in Which is like it's like a manual raid?

593
00:58:26.694 --> 00:58:27.194
Exactly.

594
00:58:28.390 --> 00:58:32.250
Shout out to the Zman. I don't know if anyone knows Zman in in, like Zman's awesome.

595
00:58:32.710 --> 00:58:52.480
He implemented that in in Core Landing. I met him at at Berlin. I'm like, I I didn't even know that he showed up at places, but he is a real person. He's not, like, an AI or anything. And Spiral's supporting him. If you ask if you next time you see Steve Lee on the spot, like, ask him ask him to spell out his name, and he can spell it out, like, z m s z m s c p s h.

596
00:58:52.780 --> 00:58:57.040
Z m s c p zed, I think, j. I don't know. So I just call him z man.

597
00:58:57.585 --> 00:59:05.285
Yeah. I I try and test Steve every once in a while. He can get it almost every time. Alright. So going back to purple Oh, yeah. Sorry. We we got off on a tangent.

598
00:59:06.119 --> 00:59:08.619
So yeah. Purple I mean, again, I didn't like subscriptions.

599
00:59:09.160 --> 00:59:12.059
I love this data split idea, and I definitely wanna bring it back.

600
00:59:12.599 --> 00:59:15.259
But subscriptions have actually been really good

601
00:59:16.075 --> 00:59:25.680
in terms of you know, it's actually been pretty good. It's it's able to pay a portion of, some of our employee salaries, and and it's, like, a very promising future. And I I think, most importantly,

602
00:59:26.060 --> 00:59:34.635
I I basically implemented because everyone kept asking me to implement it. I didn't really wanna do it. But people the the people care so much on this network. They just they wanna support open source projects.

603
00:59:35.195 --> 00:59:38.895
Yeah. I think we had a conversation about it back in the day too. Yeah.

604
00:59:39.355 --> 00:59:41.615
Yeah. Exactly. I think it's a great idea.

605
00:59:42.260 --> 00:59:57.954
I I'm starting to warm up to it just because, like, I didn't realize I get so much support, and, like, we only have, like, probably that's not only, but we we have actually have a large number of subscriptions. We're up to, like, about 350, I think. And that was just my next question. Which is not not it's not nothing. So your subscriber number, if you subscribe today, you'll see how many subscriptions.

606
00:59:58.470 --> 01:00:01.609
I'm not When when are you gonna make the subscriber number public?

607
01:00:02.150 --> 01:00:10.785
I'm I mean, it was I wanna drag. It it is it was originally, but then we had this discussion within the team. We're like, oh my god. It's gonna be this, like, weird, like

608
01:00:12.445 --> 01:00:14.625
like, dick length contest or something. A 100%.

609
01:00:15.244 --> 01:00:18.570
Yeah. I'm considering bringing it back. I think it's 38.

610
01:00:19.030 --> 01:00:25.210
It just showed on my profile. Shout out to Igor. I think number no. Eric's number 2. Igor's number 3. So shout out to those guys. OGs.

611
01:00:26.625 --> 01:01:05.600
But, anyway so, yeah, it's it to me, purple represents it's, like, an actual way to I'm trying to I want to build Domas to more than just, like, a, like, a pet project. Right? I don't wanna actually Right. Build this out, build more stuff, have more people on board. Like, there's a lot of people working from here right now that are just doing for free, like, out of the goodness of their heart, really, like LSAT. He just shows up every day and, you know, manages a lot of the product. Fucking awesome. I didn't even know there was, like, bit product Ophos people. Like, he was the first person I've ever interacted with who just was doing product on my I'm, like, who are you? Just showed up. I was actually initially kind of annoyed. I'm, like, I'm, like, I I don't I can do product myself. And then I realized, like, oh, shit. He's, like, really good at this. And he's documented, like, every issue on Domas. He's

612
01:01:06.000 --> 01:01:11.620
putting together milestones or road maps, and I'm like He's become a friend. He's a legend. I I love that, dude. Yeah. So,

613
01:01:12.480 --> 01:01:24.510
yeah. So I just, like hopefully, I can, like, one day just build Domus to be a successful I can actually pay reward these pay these people for doing all this hard work. But for now, it's just, like, it's just amazing to see that they they wanna support, the project. Anyway,

614
01:01:24.810 --> 01:01:32.590
so purple, yeah, was my it's it's becoming more of a thing now where I'm starting to consider, like, what else can we do for our purple purple subscribers?

615
01:01:33.065 --> 01:01:37.085
So we've had some really interesting chats even just, like, last week with the with the team.

616
01:01:38.105 --> 01:01:40.365
As I'm I'm starting to think a lot more about

617
01:01:40.744 --> 01:01:41.645
private relays.

618
01:01:42.480 --> 01:01:46.660
Okay. And I even have a Nostriga talk that I'm building right now called

619
01:01:46.960 --> 01:01:52.225
private nostril. I mean, name of the talk is Saving Private Nostril because I don't even know why I called it back. So it's stupid.

620
01:01:53.185 --> 01:01:54.405
And it's a great name.

621
01:01:55.905 --> 01:02:00.305
But it's I'm just kinda cataloging all the different ways we can have a more private Noster,

622
01:02:01.380 --> 01:02:13.665
because right now, it's, like, mainly focused on public and censorship resistant public square, you know, but a lot of people are working on broadcast. Stuff. You know, and, oh, Veeder has been working on his gift wrap stuff, which is, like, way to do private not notes on public

623
01:02:13.965 --> 01:02:16.065
on the public public infrastructure, which is interesting.

624
01:02:16.365 --> 01:02:21.060
Huddl bot. Yeah. Huddl bot is all these, like, really interesting group ideas, private groups.

625
01:02:22.079 --> 01:02:28.994
FIA Jaff has been, like, really I think he's been pushing a lot of, like, you know, some micro relays with, like, custom moderation, like, the pyramid relay.

626
01:02:30.415 --> 01:02:39.370
And and for us at at Adonis, like, I wanna be able to have a a relay where our purple members can come and give feedback and and kind of talk together,

627
01:02:39.904 --> 01:02:44.644
and that's without any external noise from, like, spam or anything like that. So I was thinking,

628
01:02:46.305 --> 01:02:49.204
something needs to change in the Domus interface if I wanna support

629
01:02:50.180 --> 01:02:52.760
relay like, relays as private communities.

630
01:02:53.220 --> 01:02:53.720
So,

631
01:02:54.820 --> 01:02:59.444
you know, a lot of people think this is a bad idea. Like, semi solar said it's a bad idea, but I think it'd be really cool

632
01:03:00.145 --> 01:03:02.244
if we just have a purple relay where,

633
01:03:02.944 --> 01:03:09.809
maybe it that only, you know, purple member members can write to. But, you know, a lot of relays actually do this right now, but it's not that interesting because,

634
01:03:10.510 --> 01:03:13.490
they all get mixed together with all the other notes on your feed.

635
01:03:13.885 --> 01:03:25.039
But also any like, I mean, we have a Bitcoin Park Relay, which only Bitcoin Park members can write to, but anyone can read. Would this be That's the same idea. That's what I wanna do with the purple relay. But right now, it's kinda

636
01:03:25.420 --> 01:03:29.605
it's kinda annoying because there's no way to, like, jump into a view that just shows only notes from that

637
01:03:30.005 --> 01:03:50.694
relay. Like, the closest thing you could do is go into the university in, turn off all the all the relays, and only and only seed knows from that one relay. Right. But I want a more first class support. I want something more like Discord where you maybe have a relay list and you click click 1 and you jump into the purple relay. And then and and any post you do is only sent to that relay. Isn't this counter to the idea of the outbox model?

638
01:03:51.395 --> 01:03:53.734
I don't think it's counter. It's such as a different,

639
01:03:54.640 --> 01:04:03.540
I mean, outbox the way that I view outbox model maybe people can correct me in the chat, but, the way I view outbox model is a way to do a more decentralized public square.

640
01:04:03.914 --> 01:04:16.310
Okay. But this is a little bit different. This is like and I I've always gave this analogy, I think, in early in the earliest, like, a year ago or something where, you know, maybe the public relays to public square is you got a lot of crazy people. You got, like, you know, you got this homeless person who's screaming

641
01:04:16.610 --> 01:04:41.015
on your on your post when you're trying to just talk to people outside. And then maybe you want to go into, like, a private club that, you you know, members only, and you can just have a nice civilized conversation without people screaming in your ear that you're, you know, you're an idiot. Like, I get that a lot. I have a lot of for some reason, I attract autistic people and schizophrenic people on my post. Sometimes it just be nice to go somewhere and and just have a conversation privately without having broadcasted everywhere on a public square. So I I see them I see it a little bit differently than the outbox model.

642
01:04:42.200 --> 01:04:48.940
So, yeah, it'd be cool if you just jump into a relay and just chat on it and chat with people on the relay. And then you can have custom moderation strategies, like the pyramid relay.

643
01:04:50.025 --> 01:04:52.925
I don't know if anyone knows about the pyramid relay by Fiat Jaffe, but it's really cool.

644
01:04:53.465 --> 01:04:55.325
I don't know if have you have you seen it, Odell?

645
01:04:55.625 --> 01:04:57.165
Yeah. I'm on the pyramid relay.

646
01:04:57.900 --> 01:05:05.839
We talked about it a little bit while Fiat Jaf was on, but let's let's chat about it. Yeah. I mean, so this is just one example. It's like, we would never spec this. Like, this idea of,

647
01:05:06.140 --> 01:05:06.720
you know,

648
01:05:07.734 --> 01:05:09.835
so I wanna join a community, but,

649
01:05:10.855 --> 01:05:25.224
I wanna I wanna basically grow a community over time, but I don't wanna just let anyone into this community. So, there's been a few instances of this implementation. One one website was called Lobsters, which is a, it's kind of like Hacker News, but with a pyramid invite model.

650
01:05:26.244 --> 01:05:32.559
So you basically if you know someone, you can invite them, and then they can invite people. So it creates this tree of invites of, like, vetted people.

651
01:05:33.099 --> 01:05:41.505
Yeah. I think in fiat jobs model, like, you have 3 invites. So someone invites me, I can invite 3 people. They can invite 3 people Who can then invite 3 people?

652
01:05:41.965 --> 01:05:47.585
Yeah. So, like, at least as long as you trust transitively trust some people, it's, you know, it's route you have a relatively

653
01:05:49.430 --> 01:05:49.930
isolated

654
01:05:50.309 --> 01:05:50.809
relay,

655
01:05:51.349 --> 01:05:54.549
that's, like, hopefully, not that's, hopefully, free from spam. Right?

656
01:05:54.869 --> 01:06:01.855
So the only issue where And if, like, one leg goes off bad, you can just chop them up. The leg. Yeah. Exactly.

657
01:06:02.714 --> 01:06:06.175
So the only issue right now is that there's not many good UI designs

658
01:06:06.714 --> 01:06:07.454
that encourage,

659
01:06:08.620 --> 01:06:10.720
you know, interacting only with one relay.

660
01:06:11.020 --> 01:06:11.520
Right.

661
01:06:12.060 --> 01:06:22.115
So Domus is really bad for this because I just you just blasted all the relays and relay lists. Like, if I add the pyramid relay, it's it's not that interesting, because I'm still getting spam from other relays in my feed. But it could work well in NoteDeck

662
01:06:22.655 --> 01:06:23.954
in the NoteDeck interface.

663
01:06:24.335 --> 01:06:32.730
Yeah. I mean, if if we wanted to because it could just be one column. Could just be That's a good point. Yeah. I never thought about that. I will consider that. You can do a relay column.

664
01:06:33.270 --> 01:06:41.785
That's just a single relay. Yeah. So, like, I imagine people will build Discord like interfaces on top of this idea. Oh, that's going even further. Doing like a

665
01:06:42.970 --> 01:06:45.230
have you tried to huddlebot about this at all?

666
01:06:45.690 --> 01:06:49.390
I haven't talked to him that often. No. So, like, huddlebot's, like, dream.

667
01:06:50.935 --> 01:06:57.355
I I've he's such a good dude, but I love he's distilled his dream multiple times that he just

668
01:06:57.710 --> 01:07:02.849
he knows he's succeeded if he can get his church group off of Facebook and onto Noster.

669
01:07:03.390 --> 01:07:04.770
And he has this concept

670
01:07:05.655 --> 01:07:06.315
where, like,

671
01:07:07.975 --> 01:07:09.835
it's like a private square

672
01:07:10.855 --> 01:07:11.915
that still

673
01:07:12.670 --> 01:07:13.170
bleeds

674
01:07:13.550 --> 01:07:21.250
get gets information from the public square, but, like, when they're actually communicating, they're only doing it privately. So you get the benefits of the global network of Master.

675
01:07:21.994 --> 01:07:24.015
But but, like, your actual

676
01:07:24.954 --> 01:07:25.454
commentary

677
01:07:26.075 --> 01:07:27.694
or conversations are private.

678
01:07:28.075 --> 01:07:30.815
Mhmm. And the rest of nostril doesn't see those.

679
01:07:31.910 --> 01:07:33.770
It's a it's it's a really

680
01:07:36.710 --> 01:07:41.845
interesting framework that he's, like, working on, And, like, that's his that's his dream for Choracle

681
01:07:42.385 --> 01:07:42.885
Interesting.

682
01:07:43.384 --> 01:07:48.770
Is, like, this idea where, like and and, like, the simple the simple example would be, like,

683
01:07:49.730 --> 01:07:52.950
you pull a CNN post from the public relay,

684
01:07:53.970 --> 01:07:55.350
and then the church group,

685
01:07:56.225 --> 01:08:02.005
you know, debates the merits of the CNN post, and no one else sees it besides the people in the in group,

686
01:08:02.385 --> 01:08:03.125
the responses.

687
01:08:03.850 --> 01:08:05.070
That definitely makes sense.

688
01:08:05.930 --> 01:08:13.205
It's very similar to what I I'm thinking of, but I I never consider it from that angle where you wanna when you're in one view and you wanna pull stuff from the outside view.

689
01:08:14.485 --> 01:08:14.985
Yeah.

690
01:08:15.445 --> 01:08:19.465
And, specifically, though, in this in this scenario, he doesn't want

691
01:08:20.730 --> 01:08:23.230
read access for people outside of the

692
01:08:24.650 --> 01:08:27.630
group. Right? Yes. That's Which is a little bit different.

693
01:08:27.930 --> 01:08:29.305
Yeah. So this is where the auth

694
01:08:29.785 --> 01:08:36.445
is really important. And it is very flexible to what things you get you do with auth, which is, you know, maybe, like, what you're saying, you would have,

695
01:08:37.590 --> 01:08:47.355
you know, write only for certain members, but maybe external people can read it. This is a little bit different where it's, like, you have write and read only as as it's completely blocked off. So only people members can read.

696
01:08:47.915 --> 01:08:50.975
So I definitely want to support all these different, use cases.

697
01:08:52.155 --> 01:08:59.130
Yeah. Because I think I think the biggest issue in Domino's right now is that it's just, like, everything's just mixed together, and it's think you can have some really interesting use cases

698
01:08:59.510 --> 01:09:08.955
when you when you have really when you just focus in on one relay and all the interactions when you're when you're basically you basically scope the entire app to that one relay, and then all the interactions are only to that relay.

699
01:09:09.975 --> 01:09:14.369
So I'm I'm interested in those for use cases for sure. So, I mean, to pull it back, right now,

700
01:09:15.869 --> 01:09:24.665
if I if you become a purple subscriber, you get a couple benefits. You get that warm fuzzy feeling of supporting Domus development and trying to make it sustainable,

701
01:09:25.525 --> 01:09:26.344
and independent.

702
01:09:27.500 --> 01:09:28.320
You get,

703
01:09:29.020 --> 01:09:38.985
still get a public dick throwing contest in the date you joined. I mean, that's why I don't understand why you don't just show the fucking number. Like, the date is there anyway. I'll do it. I'll do it for you. Thank you, sir.

704
01:09:40.005 --> 01:09:44.699
My my verbal pull request. I guess it's an issue because it's not working code.

705
01:09:46.040 --> 01:09:49.659
The you get that you get the translations, the auto translations.

706
01:09:50.454 --> 01:09:51.275
Cool feature.

707
01:09:51.974 --> 01:09:58.394
Very helpful. And once you start using them, you really miss not having them. It's very sticky.

708
01:09:59.960 --> 01:10:06.699
And then I think that's it right now. Right? And then how and so, like, the this idea of a purple relay or some kind of

709
01:10:07.825 --> 01:10:17.980
private Discord experience is one of the ideas. Do you have any other ideas that you're gonna add here on the premium tier? Yeah. I mean, so, like, as we were talking, there is one more thing, which is obviously the, the test flight access.

710
01:10:18.360 --> 01:10:26.645
Oh, test flight access is massive, of course. Yeah. Because we wanted to have it like, hey. Look. If you're gonna support us, like, maybe you can get on, try the earlier different features early.

711
01:10:26.945 --> 01:10:28.485
We never wanna make it so,

712
01:10:28.785 --> 01:10:30.885
purple. It's, like, they have exclusive features.

713
01:10:31.825 --> 01:10:32.885
I I think, eventually,

714
01:10:33.230 --> 01:10:35.010
like, all features are gonna be available

715
01:10:35.389 --> 01:10:40.849
for everyone, but we just wanna have purple people. They can, they can test it earlier than other people. What about Domus NIP Fives?

716
01:10:41.225 --> 01:10:43.885
I know it's kinda pretty niche. But Yeah.

717
01:10:44.265 --> 01:10:48.125
It's, it it'd be cool to have, like, to have that. I'm definitely considering it.

718
01:10:49.250 --> 01:10:51.510
I mean, it's kinda odd. Like, there's, like,

719
01:10:54.050 --> 01:10:56.155
large audience people that are using, like,

720
01:10:56.715 --> 01:11:03.614
noster plebs or, like, nostril check, or they, like, did it once. I think there'd be demand to have a nice,

721
01:11:04.010 --> 01:11:06.190
fancy NIP 5 from Domus,

722
01:11:06.970 --> 01:11:10.250
especially as the network gets bigger. Like, it is technically

723
01:11:10.955 --> 01:11:15.535
it's like your own little shit coin. You know? It's like there's a namespace there that is scarce.

724
01:11:16.235 --> 01:11:25.720
Yeah. It is nice when you can just say, like, you know, follow me at j55 at domas. It's, and then and then we would have custom support where you don't even need to type at domas.i0. It just, like, automatically

725
01:11:26.075 --> 01:11:33.135
look for the domus 1 first. So I I definitely have some usability features that I I I'll probably do it eventually. And then the other thing is,

726
01:11:35.770 --> 01:11:41.310
so what do you what do you so right now, in domus, it defaults media uploads. It defaults to nostr

727
01:11:41.685 --> 01:11:43.545
dot build, which is a different,

728
01:11:44.325 --> 01:11:44.825
project.

729
01:11:45.445 --> 01:11:45.945
Yeah.

730
01:11:46.725 --> 01:11:48.585
That's like a pay per use project.

731
01:11:50.139 --> 01:12:01.565
What are your thoughts on media uploads in Domus going forward? Is is that something that is a purple thing? Do you even wanna touch to that? I mean, I think you might not even need to run the servers. Like, it could be

732
01:12:02.845 --> 01:12:12.370
you could get credits to, like, satellite CDN or something Mhmm. Or Nostril build or something like that with purple. Yeah. I've we've actually had a meeting with Nostril as, like, maybe,

733
01:12:13.150 --> 01:12:16.530
if you get purple, you you could get, like, a Nostril build account automatically.

734
01:12:16.885 --> 01:12:21.945
Yeah. I think that'd be cool. I just gotta figure out, like, you know, the actual financial of that. I don't know if that's gonna work out. But,

735
01:12:22.645 --> 01:12:26.870
I know I've I've considered running my own media uploader, and I would only ever consider

736
01:12:27.250 --> 01:12:30.710
it on a purple membership because I don't like the idea of having to do moderation

737
01:12:31.330 --> 01:12:36.225
for, like, people uploading child porn. I like There's so much liability on the media upload side.

738
01:12:36.525 --> 01:12:43.060
So it's it's kinda like a pain in the ass. I'm I'm happy that Nostril is kind of handling that. But you get to it's like you outsource the custodian

739
01:12:43.920 --> 01:12:50.535
even if you're the custodian. I think that's a kind of, like, a pattern with, like, everything in domicile. It's like, I'm not gonna take on any liabilities. I'm just trying to officer,

740
01:12:50.935 --> 01:12:57.595
you know, push that to other people, all the hard stuff. So I'm happy that they exist, and they're doing a good job with moderation. And and they're awesome.

741
01:12:58.480 --> 01:13:03.060
So great. And satellite is great. Yeah. Event yeah. So, eventually, a solutes satellite,

742
01:13:03.440 --> 01:13:06.340
they also they actually support the same spec. It's the

743
01:13:06.845 --> 01:13:13.505
image uploading spec or whatever. So Domus will probably implement that, so you can at least choose between satellite or And I I mean, I

744
01:13:14.330 --> 01:13:20.270
I don't know, but hopefully not. I know satellite's gonna add full blossom spec support. Hopefully, Nostril does the same.

745
01:13:21.530 --> 01:13:23.790
I know primal's going too for theirs,

746
01:13:24.864 --> 01:13:34.850
for their CDN. It's gonna be really interesting when you have, like, file sharing because I don't think we've there's been many social networks where you can, like, share files, and maybe that becomes a really reliable way to send files to people.

747
01:13:36.350 --> 01:13:42.255
I don't know what the the story is for encryption, like, how that works. Like, are things I haven't looked too much in the blossom. What was really cool is,

748
01:13:42.815 --> 01:13:47.315
I mean, you gotta listen to the last week's episode of Stewart and Hazard.

749
01:13:48.895 --> 01:13:51.715
I saw Vanessa listen to it and enjoyed it.

750
01:13:52.480 --> 01:13:52.720
The

751
01:13:54.080 --> 01:13:58.100
like, just think of it as, like, at a basic level. Right? Like, I take this dispatch, right,

752
01:13:58.960 --> 01:13:59.460
and

753
01:14:00.355 --> 01:14:02.455
I upload it after we're done.

754
01:14:02.915 --> 01:14:04.355
And I it's it's

755
01:14:05.155 --> 01:14:09.015
a hash is made, and then I sign the hash with my pub key.

756
01:14:09.660 --> 01:14:10.400
And then

757
01:14:10.940 --> 01:14:14.560
in 2 years, when there's, like, all these deep fake dispatches or whatever,

758
01:14:15.660 --> 01:14:17.040
people can fetch,

759
01:14:17.515 --> 01:14:20.655
using the blossom spec, can fetch the exact

760
01:14:21.915 --> 01:14:22.415
unaltered

761
01:14:22.955 --> 01:14:25.455
version that was originally signed by my pubkey,

762
01:14:25.930 --> 01:14:29.950
and they can do it by the hash. So if there's different hosts around the world,

763
01:14:30.490 --> 01:14:35.765
you can pull it from any of those hosts. You know it's not altered. And if you can't find it, you could potentially

764
01:14:36.465 --> 01:14:37.125
put up

765
01:14:37.665 --> 01:14:43.205
a a a bounty, a sat bounty, and be like, I will pay 10,000 sats for the original CD 126

766
01:14:43.989 --> 01:14:44.809
with Will

767
01:14:45.349 --> 01:14:46.489
that is unaltered.

768
01:14:47.030 --> 01:14:49.849
And then it'll probably appear somewhere because

769
01:14:50.230 --> 01:15:02.719
someone wants the money. That's and that was always my issue with, like, IPFS, which is this idea that, oh, yeah. We'll just have a global, you know, CDN with, like, hashes, but there's actually no incentive to mirror anything. And half the time you try to fetch something, it just doesn't work.

770
01:15:03.099 --> 01:15:08.800
So if if, if this can fix the incentive cool is that? It's so simple too. I like how simple it is.

771
01:15:09.165 --> 01:15:15.505
Yeah. It's just web servers and I don't know. I like that. I definitely I definitely wanna play with it, with my free time.

772
01:15:16.205 --> 01:15:17.265
Cool. Cool. Cool.

773
01:15:18.570 --> 01:15:24.190
Yeah. So Yeah. Go ahead. We were briefly touching on, you know, this idea of, you know, privacy on Nostra.

774
01:15:24.650 --> 01:15:29.335
And it Oh, yeah. It it so I've been thinking about it a lot, so maybe I'll share some of the things I've been thinking about.

775
01:15:29.875 --> 01:15:32.375
So, yeah, again, this private group idea is really cool.

776
01:15:32.675 --> 01:15:35.095
But then Veeder so I actually had created a spec called

777
01:15:36.199 --> 01:15:52.855
relay specific notes. And this was my attempt at this fixing this problem, which is, you know, if you are doing these private conversations, like, you know, in the Huddl bots case, like, what's stopping your client from just taking it and broadcasting it to the global network? So if you're if you're in a corporation corporate environment and you're having private conversations

778
01:15:53.270 --> 01:16:02.090
and then anyone within the team can broadcast your entire conversation with the public network, like, this is Horrible. And it's signed too. So you know it's not altered. Yeah.

779
01:16:03.125 --> 01:16:04.025
So, you know,

780
01:16:05.205 --> 01:16:16.180
it's just so bad. So I was like, okay. How do I how do we fix this problem? My first attempt at it was, okay. What if we change the, the event ID commitment? So maybe you hash one more thing as the event ID.

781
01:16:16.720 --> 01:16:17.460
So, basically,

782
01:16:17.840 --> 01:16:19.140
it becomes invalid

783
01:16:19.985 --> 01:16:24.805
for every existing relay to, like, try to broadcast it. And you have to create a custom relay to

784
01:16:25.425 --> 01:16:31.840
to handle these new messages that are that are Just go out of your way to do it. Yeah. And I realized, like, well, maybe this is kind of a pain in the ass.

785
01:16:32.300 --> 01:16:43.015
And then this I think last night before, like, I think 1 in the morning, I randomly woke up and thought of another idea, which is because this is something that Veeder mentioned on that p o on that relay, which is he's more interested in a repeatability.

786
01:16:43.635 --> 01:16:44.940
This is this idea of

787
01:16:45.900 --> 01:16:46.800
plausible deniability.

788
01:16:47.900 --> 01:16:54.880
So let's say, you know, it is private. Let's say it's completely auth, and maybe you've created some mechanism that prevents you from broadcasting it to other relays.

789
01:16:55.244 --> 01:16:57.585
But if it's still signed by your key,

790
01:16:58.045 --> 01:16:58.545
then,

791
01:16:59.085 --> 01:17:09.770
if you're if you're not sure if you're really ever hacked or exposed or leaked, then you have of all this, like, you know, signed data, which is really bad. Right. So I just thought of, like, the stupidest possible thing,

792
01:17:10.550 --> 01:17:11.955
and it's gonna sound really stupid,

793
01:17:12.515 --> 01:17:15.175
but it it it basically adds, deniability,

794
01:17:15.635 --> 01:17:19.255
and it adds, non broadcast ability. And the idea is

795
01:17:19.955 --> 01:17:41.690
when you so you you basically have your corporate relay, your trusted relay, you your client just does an auth and signs the auth request that verifies that you are in fact that person. Yeah. And then every note you send after that is just not signed. Just not unsigned. Yeah. So, like, they know it's like the Relay knows it's you because you did the auth, and it can save your notes, but it's there's no signatures on it. So if you if your notes are leaked,

796
01:17:43.190 --> 01:17:53.165
then, you know, then it'd be like, well, anyone could afford that. If the people who hacked my relay could have just added data or altered my text. So that's plausible deniability, but it also has this huge flaw, which is,

797
01:17:53.800 --> 01:18:05.615
you are trusting the relay, and now you have to build some special UI rig that says this is an unverified note. But for maybe for, like, a corporate environment, maybe that's okay. So I've been thinking about that as well. Anyway so there's lots of different ideas floating around.

798
01:18:06.075 --> 01:18:07.775
That's just one I had this morning.

799
01:18:10.370 --> 01:18:16.630
Yeah. I mean, there could be some, like, imposter situations, like, internal in the or I guess it would work better for smaller

800
01:18:17.010 --> 01:18:17.510
Yeah.

801
01:18:17.885 --> 01:18:23.985
Smaller groups. It's more for and it's more for, like, you wanna keep things private, and you don't wanna leak it to the wider network, and you won't have,

802
01:18:24.365 --> 01:18:39.265
plausible deniability. So it's like an IRC server. It's like you can't go to an IRC server. The messages are not signed. Anyone can be, like you know? Or, like, anything. Like, pretty much everything we use. So I think a lot of people would find this offensive on Nostra because Nostra is a lot Like Slack, Discord

803
01:18:39.585 --> 01:18:40.645
Exactly. Twitter.

804
01:18:44.000 --> 01:18:46.340
The overwhelming majority of comms tech

805
01:18:46.720 --> 01:18:49.140
is just unsigned. So it's probably distasteful,

806
01:18:49.680 --> 01:18:54.565
for a lot of Nostr's devs, but I don't know. It's just an idea. I'll throw it out there. What are your thoughts on DMs?

807
01:18:55.185 --> 01:18:57.845
How do we improve DMs? How do you think about that?

808
01:18:58.305 --> 01:19:03.690
Because that's because when I think about it so we've touched on a bunch of different things. Like, new user comes in. Right? Yeah.

809
01:19:05.190 --> 01:19:06.810
Zaps, like, they should

810
01:19:07.574 --> 01:19:14.395
be able to do zap. Like, they wanna do I mean, they might not know they wanna do Zaps, but they wanna do Zaps. Media uploads

811
01:19:14.934 --> 01:19:15.915
and then DMs.

812
01:19:16.290 --> 01:19:17.750
Like, DMs, I think,

813
01:19:18.690 --> 01:19:32.514
are something that I'd really do miss from Twitter. It was, like, one of my and DMs on Twitter fucking sucked. Yeah. But they're really bad on Noster, like, to the point where I feel I almost don't even wanna I try not to respond. And you can tell by

814
01:19:33.100 --> 01:19:39.200
putting my pub key in and seeing which ones I've responded to and which ones I haven't, and I only do the bare minimum responses.

815
01:19:40.355 --> 01:19:49.380
Yeah. The problem is Nasr is just really bad for GM. It's like Yeah. It's so bad, and that's why I haven't really focused on it too much in Domus. We have big base level support.

816
01:19:50.080 --> 01:20:00.205
So people are trying to make it better. Like, you know, we add they added this new net 44 encryption spec. It doesn't solve anything. It just makes encryption slightly better. Okay. Great. There's still a lot of main issues we need to solve, which is,

817
01:20:00.665 --> 01:20:08.840
you know, the metadata leaking issue. So maybe the outbox model can help a lot with that. So you have, like, a private relay, and only your DMs go to your relay,

818
01:20:10.020 --> 01:20:13.160
assuming the clients do the right thing, which is probably not gonna happen.

819
01:20:14.575 --> 01:20:23.395
And and then but then look at who we're competing against. Like, we're our our competition for in this space is signal and WhatsApp who have double ratchet and all this great crypto

820
01:20:23.930 --> 01:20:26.910
Yeah. That keeps things private if things leak. And,

821
01:20:27.290 --> 01:20:31.070
I think that if we wanna actually do it right, then we need to be focusing on

822
01:20:31.745 --> 01:20:34.805
the specs that are that are that people expect from a modern

823
01:20:35.185 --> 01:20:46.090
messaging app. Right? WhatsApp is a double is double ratchet. Right? Signal is. And the majority of the world uses WhatsApp. Why would they degrade to, like, a a less to a less private and a less secure messaging system?

824
01:20:46.455 --> 01:20:57.530
Unless there's unless, like, Nostra's really killing it in every other aspect and just makes sense. I mean, that's the reality. It's, like, most of the time I respond to Nostra DM, it's like, Nostra DM suck. Here, message me on signal. Yeah.

825
01:20:59.110 --> 01:21:03.050
So I would at least now I can give them a signal link, you know, or signal username.

826
01:21:03.795 --> 01:21:07.815
Yeah. So I I think I just need we need them need a new protocol or just need a double edged spec.

827
01:21:08.595 --> 01:21:18.020
It's there's no reason why we have to use every Nostra for everything. Like, we can actually create a parallel spec that is just more secure and private. And you just use, like, Nostra for the discovery

828
01:21:18.695 --> 01:21:21.515
and, like, For the public. Original negotiation.

829
01:21:22.695 --> 01:21:23.195
Yeah.

830
01:21:23.975 --> 01:21:30.270
I don't know. I'm just, like I'm not really I'm just not really bullish on anything DM wise until I see a a decent solution.

831
01:21:30.650 --> 01:21:31.550
Okay. Noted.

832
01:21:32.890 --> 01:21:34.830
Okay. Well, this has been a great conversation.

833
01:21:37.735 --> 01:21:39.915
I've enjoyed it. I hope the freaks have enjoyed it.

834
01:21:41.495 --> 01:21:44.040
We do have something else that we need to talk about.

835
01:21:44.680 --> 01:21:47.180
You had some concerns that you posted on,

836
01:21:47.960 --> 01:21:49.660
over the last few weeks.

837
01:21:52.065 --> 01:22:00.060
Oddly enough, like, this dispatch was scheduled before those concerns were posted. It was not a response to that, which I think is an important

838
01:22:00.520 --> 01:22:03.100
Yep. Caveat to make clear. But

839
01:22:03.480 --> 01:22:08.060
I think it's important we discuss them, and it's important that we have open discussion as part of the reason why

840
01:22:09.005 --> 01:22:13.185
CIDL dispatches a live unedited interactive show in the first place.

841
01:22:15.620 --> 01:22:19.400
So you have concerns about open sats. What are your concerns? How can we improve?

842
01:22:19.940 --> 01:22:22.600
I want open sats to be the best it can possibly be,

843
01:22:24.205 --> 01:22:25.665
and it's it's a process.

844
01:22:26.525 --> 01:22:34.650
Yeah. And and I I think that, like, obviously, you know, some of the things I said, you know, people were interpreting it in many different ways. Like, I'm, like, this anti open Sats guy or,

845
01:22:34.950 --> 01:22:35.930
anti, like,

846
01:22:36.550 --> 01:22:47.485
what you guys are doing. But, obviously, it would be obviously, me and you, Odell, have had conversations on, you know, some of the issues that, you know, even Domus is having early on. And credit to you, like, you're always on top of things that you're very transparent

847
01:22:47.865 --> 01:22:49.885
over over calls and things like that. So,

848
01:22:50.340 --> 01:23:02.685
I'm not I'm not saying that, like, as a like, there's an issue with open sides, like, as a whole. I think there's a I feel like it's more of a perception issue and a PR issue for a lot of things, such as, you know, someone I was responding to someone in network who said,

849
01:23:03.065 --> 01:23:07.165
you know, oh, why why aren't people calling out, like, these, like, paid influencers and things like that?

850
01:23:07.480 --> 01:23:17.151
And I I just said, like, I think there's a perception issue. I mean, there's, like, a there's a there's a PR issue with, like you know, there's a a perceived conflict of interest issue, right, with, 1031 and.

851
01:23:17.765 --> 01:23:20.265
And I feel like when you're applying

852
01:23:20.725 --> 01:23:22.265
for a grant and things like that,

853
01:23:23.180 --> 01:23:25.440
you know, I feel like some people feel like they need to

854
01:23:26.220 --> 01:23:29.280
tiptoe around certain things. Don't say certain things or,

855
01:23:29.980 --> 01:23:33.335
you know, feel like they have to center themselves. Like, you know, this this happened with,

856
01:23:34.355 --> 01:23:50.635
with seed signer. You know, seed signer, like, DM me. And they're like, oh, oh, yeah. Thanks thanks for, you know, saying this because it's what I've been feeling. You know? Like, I'm like, I get it because I I felt the same thing as well until I had a call with Odell. And, like, he explained that it's no. It's he's not involved in this decision making process. So my point was, like, I think there's a perceived

857
01:23:51.095 --> 01:23:54.475
conflict of interest, and it's causing people to kind of, like,

858
01:23:55.220 --> 01:24:00.360
I don't know. So that that was my only point, and people, like, kind of took it way way further than that than it was.

859
01:24:01.060 --> 01:24:05.425
And at the end of the day, what all I all I care about is, you know, the success of Nasr.

860
01:24:06.045 --> 01:24:06.545
And,

861
01:24:07.565 --> 01:24:15.050
and when I say these things, I'm I'm thinking of, like, potential ways that it can go awry. Right? So, you know, imagine a situation where

862
01:24:15.750 --> 01:24:20.010
OpenSats, obviously, they're getting they they they control the funding, like, all the money. Everyone,

863
01:24:21.095 --> 01:24:27.035
basically they can control the future of who succeeds and who doesn't succeed on on Oster. Like, they if they control all the funding.

864
01:24:27.495 --> 01:24:31.100
Right. So they have a lot of power, like, it's a it's a very powerful position.

865
01:24:31.640 --> 01:24:32.940
And when you have,

866
01:24:33.800 --> 01:24:44.015
a handful of people who are making those decisions, you really want to know, you know, what, like, what are their, like, what are their, incentives, their interests? Like, what are their conflicts? Like, are they working on competing projects?

867
01:24:44.640 --> 01:24:47.700
So I think that causes a lot of, like, paranoia to people applying.

868
01:24:48.560 --> 01:24:53.620
And, again, it's, like, these are really hard problems. Like, you know, giving them the money the hardest problems.

869
01:24:54.485 --> 01:25:35.355
So all I would say is that the only thing that I but I feel maybe would go a long way, which would just be, like, if we knew who's making decisions and, like, who absolve themselves from the decision making process or, like, at least just know why are something was rejected. I think just those things I'm not saying, like, show what they voted on individually. Just, like, who was involved in decision making process and, like, and why was it why was what was the ultimate decision? Because, like, right now, when you get rejected, it's just like, oh, you're rejected. I'm like, oh, okay. I don't know if anyway, so that was, like, my only kind of, like, main I don't even tell it a criticism. It's just I don't I'm just worried that if this becomes such a common thing and people are worried about it, that's brought up all the time, it's gonna it's just gonna be a really bad PR issue, I think.

870
01:25:35.780 --> 01:25:38.200
Okay. I like that. I I appreciate that feedback.

871
01:25:39.780 --> 01:25:41.880
So let me just, like, pull it back real quick.

872
01:25:45.094 --> 01:25:45.914
It is

873
01:25:48.855 --> 01:25:49.914
fall of 2020.

874
01:25:52.400 --> 01:25:58.260
Fall of 20 so so I've been active in the Bitcoin space for about 11 years, mostly focused on education.

875
01:26:00.824 --> 01:26:03.005
And I've interacted with a lot of developers,

876
01:26:03.465 --> 01:26:04.525
and I've interacted,

877
01:26:06.745 --> 01:26:15.360
with a lot of, founders in the space. I mean, there weren't really that many Bitcoin startups yet in 2020, but a a lot of the different builders in the space a lot you know,

878
01:26:15.735 --> 01:26:18.875
We're like you, friends with a lot of people in the space,

879
01:26:19.495 --> 01:26:22.510
seeing a lot of the hard hard work that's being done,

880
01:26:23.309 --> 01:26:28.210
interacting with them via the podcast, interacting via education, interacting with new users.

881
01:26:28.989 --> 01:26:30.130
And me, personally,

882
01:26:32.805 --> 01:26:34.905
I've always been a fan of building in the open,

883
01:26:35.765 --> 01:26:37.065
which is one of the reasons

884
01:26:37.445 --> 01:26:38.745
I love open source.

885
01:26:39.140 --> 01:26:40.280
And I think that,

886
01:26:41.220 --> 01:26:43.560
like, freedom tech is hope, and it's the way forward.

887
01:26:44.020 --> 01:26:49.705
It's like I was a disenfranchised youth before I found Bitcoin and before I found the greater freedom tech movement.

888
01:26:50.565 --> 01:26:54.985
And I think it's incredibly powerful to build in the open, and it's definitely the harder thing to do.

889
01:26:55.960 --> 01:27:05.100
But it's it's immensely valuable, and it and it means that every project is bigger than the creator and is viral and can be built upon by other people and it compounds.

890
01:27:06.255 --> 01:27:07.955
And I had a lot of focus on education,

891
01:27:08.415 --> 01:27:13.315
but I like doing the hard things. Like, I like doing the things that no one else

892
01:27:14.210 --> 01:27:20.790
is succeeding at. Because I personally think, like, in if if you believe in building in the open, if someone can do it better than you,

893
01:27:21.335 --> 01:27:23.275
then they should they should do it.

894
01:27:24.215 --> 01:27:24.295
And,

895
01:27:25.175 --> 01:27:29.190
you should focus on something that someone else isn't doing, for the most part.

896
01:27:30.070 --> 01:27:34.489
So I like focusing on the hard problems. So one of the issues that became immediately apparent

897
01:27:35.270 --> 01:27:37.370
was the funding ecosystem in Bitcoin.

898
01:27:38.105 --> 01:27:43.324
You know, 1,000,000,000 of dollars are going to the shit coin projects. Open source developers are having trouble getting support.

899
01:27:44.185 --> 01:27:47.244
Ethical Bitcoin founders are having trouble getting support.

900
01:27:49.250 --> 01:27:52.550
And Ben Price reached out to me. He was listening to the podcast.

901
01:27:53.330 --> 01:27:55.110
This is before HRF existed.

902
01:27:56.005 --> 01:27:58.265
Brink existed already at that point.

903
01:27:58.805 --> 01:28:01.305
It might have been even before Spiral existed.

904
01:28:02.725 --> 01:28:07.290
And Ben reached out to me. I never met Ben in my life. He reached out on a NIM,

905
01:28:07.590 --> 01:28:09.210
and he was like, Matt, like,

906
01:28:09.750 --> 01:28:12.970
you keep talking on the podcast. You've gotta support open source developers.

907
01:28:13.775 --> 01:28:16.594
Like, we should start a 5 zero one c three organization,

908
01:28:17.295 --> 01:28:20.835
and we should support open source developers and people can get tax deductions.

909
01:28:21.230 --> 01:28:28.210
And I was like, dude, I didn't know the guy yet. We weren't friends yet. I was like, dude, that sounds, first of all, very anti Bitcoin,

910
01:28:29.025 --> 01:28:33.445
and it sounds like a lot of paperwork and a lot of headache, and I don't wanna fucking deal with the bureaucracy.

911
01:28:33.985 --> 01:28:36.885
I was like, people should just donate to developers directly.

912
01:28:37.650 --> 01:28:38.150
And,

913
01:28:38.849 --> 01:28:46.150
he's like, no. They want the tax deduction. You know? Like, they we gotta set up an organization, blah blah blah. I was like, one sec. Hold my beer.

914
01:28:46.705 --> 01:28:49.045
So I start chatting with Dennis Ryman,

915
01:28:49.505 --> 01:28:51.365
one of the BTC pay contributors.

916
01:28:52.305 --> 01:28:53.205
Awesome dude.

917
01:28:53.880 --> 01:28:57.659
We have a long conversation, and we build this site called Bitcoin Dev list.

918
01:28:57.960 --> 01:29:02.540
And Bitcoin Dev list, I don't know if you're familiar with it, but anyone can submit a pull request to be listed.

919
01:29:02.845 --> 01:29:05.345
It has a list of all these different Bitcoin developers,

920
01:29:05.725 --> 01:29:08.065
and it has links to their BTC pay servers.

921
01:29:08.365 --> 01:29:09.105
No middleman.

922
01:29:09.805 --> 01:29:19.900
There's a pre Zaps, pre Noster. Just send Bitcoin to the developers you wanna send Bitcoin to. We we can't even tell if you donated or not. Right? Because we're not the middleman.

923
01:29:21.565 --> 01:29:28.305
Tons of Twitter engagement. People are like, oh, it's a great idea. You know, I wanna support devs. A lot of people always say they wanna support devs.

924
01:29:29.079 --> 01:29:33.980
Not nothing really came of it. No one was no money no money was exchanging hands.

925
01:29:36.015 --> 01:29:48.880
At the same time, like, GitHub Sponsorships came out, but that's all through Fiat, and the dev needs to, like, KYC with Microsoft and do all this shit. Not great either. And I so I isolated 2 main issues. Right?

926
01:29:49.340 --> 01:29:50.720
The first issue is

927
01:29:51.665 --> 01:29:55.764
is if you want, like, large corporate donations or large donations

928
01:29:56.065 --> 01:29:56.565
from

929
01:29:57.264 --> 01:30:00.485
from very rich people, they do want a tax deduction.

930
01:30:01.210 --> 01:30:03.310
And then for most people, rich

931
01:30:04.170 --> 01:30:05.230
and not rich

932
01:30:05.610 --> 01:30:08.190
combined, they wanna support open source contributors,

933
01:30:08.650 --> 01:30:10.735
but they they don't wanna pick.

934
01:30:11.115 --> 01:30:15.615
They don't like the friction of choosing who gets the money. They want someone else to allocate it for them.

935
01:30:15.995 --> 01:30:18.095
So I went back to Ben. I was like, okay, Ben.

936
01:30:18.630 --> 01:30:24.010
Like, I guess we'll do this thing, but we gotta do it in, like, the best way possible and try and mitigate all these centralization

937
01:30:24.390 --> 01:30:35.835
concerns and try and, like, do it in the most ethical best way possible. And then second of all, I wanna do as little paperwork as possible. Like, you need to be the main focus on the paperwork side because I'm not trying to

938
01:30:36.670 --> 01:30:37.570
create a 501c3.

939
01:30:37.870 --> 01:30:39.570
It just seems like a pain in the ass.

940
01:30:39.870 --> 01:30:45.725
And Ben was fucking awesome. And he was like, yes. Let's fucking do it. Let's do this thing. Also, the Bitcoin company didn't exist yet.

941
01:30:48.045 --> 01:30:50.545
I was like, okay. Well, we need a board,

942
01:30:51.005 --> 01:31:00.270
and there's gonna be accusations that people are there's gonna be accusations. If we get any kind of money, there's gonna be accusations. We saw what happened to the Bitcoin Foundation. We saw what happened to all these other centralized organizations.

943
01:31:00.625 --> 01:31:01.844
There's gonna be accusations.

944
01:31:02.465 --> 01:31:08.724
So we should have a board of a of a a group of people that have good proof of work in the space,

945
01:31:09.030 --> 01:31:10.730
and we should make it so that

946
01:31:11.830 --> 01:31:14.010
any individual there, if they have biases,

947
01:31:14.870 --> 01:31:18.490
that they can't really corrupt the process, try and make it corruption resistant.

948
01:31:18.935 --> 01:31:22.235
So we came up with this idea with a 9 person board. And we went out,

949
01:31:22.775 --> 01:31:26.395
and we we invited the whole board. Right? Dredd, Nifty.

950
01:31:28.080 --> 01:31:33.220
At that point, Udi was not, like, a clear, bad actor yet. Udi was one of the founding members of the board,

951
01:31:34.320 --> 01:31:34.900
and, fortunately,

952
01:31:35.305 --> 01:31:37.625
has left the board. We have ways of remote

953
01:31:38.025 --> 01:31:48.510
board members can vote off all the board members, but in Udi's defense That was easy call. We asked him to leave, and he just left. We didn't have to actually vote him off. But pretty much everyone just immediately said yes.

954
01:31:50.090 --> 01:31:57.684
And Catan was on the board too at that time. I don't know if people remember Catan, but he died on the hill of 1 supper bite. He left in the early days,

955
01:31:59.905 --> 01:32:03.880
and and we struggled. We we so we so we finally get the 501c3.

956
01:32:04.900 --> 01:32:07.719
All the board is unpaid. We don't have a single paid employee.

957
01:32:09.275 --> 01:32:18.094
We were just buried in paperwork, buried in organizational shit. No one wanted to donate. No one was supporting the no one was was providing any donations.

958
01:32:19.060 --> 01:32:22.600
I kept saying to Ben, I was like, maybe we need to take, like, a cut of donations

959
01:32:23.220 --> 01:32:31.025
like every other charity does instead of being a 100% pass through. But Ben's like, no. We gotta be a 100% pass through. Remember, Matt, we're trying to do this in the most ethical way possible.

960
01:32:31.405 --> 01:32:33.025
We shouldn't have paid board members.

961
01:32:35.070 --> 01:32:35.570
And

962
01:32:37.710 --> 01:32:42.449
1031 was a tiny little fund at that point. It was like a friends and family fund,

963
01:32:43.925 --> 01:32:45.305
that Grant and Jonathan,

964
01:32:45.925 --> 01:32:51.305
my fellow managing partners, the founders of 1031 were running. And they provided us with a small grant.

965
01:32:52.290 --> 01:33:00.555
Early on, I think Ledger provided us with a grant. There was a couple other people to try and get the paperwork through, pay lawyers, pay account, and stuff like that.

966
01:33:01.515 --> 01:33:02.015
And

967
01:33:02.395 --> 01:33:03.935
they invited me to

968
01:33:04.235 --> 01:33:06.575
to join them and help them really launch 1031.

969
01:33:07.275 --> 01:33:08.255
And I said,

970
01:33:09.010 --> 01:33:15.030
okay. I can see this. Like, this is this is the whole reason why I've been focused on supporting open source developers is because

971
01:33:15.625 --> 01:33:17.645
the VCs in the space are super unethical.

972
01:33:19.385 --> 01:33:31.710
You know, these guys seemed really mission aligned. They were like, we we wanna be like the ethical VC. We wanna be a VC that, like, tries to do it the right way. We wanna support open source contributors. We wanna invest in in companies that are completely false,

973
01:33:32.065 --> 01:33:38.885
which is, like, very counterintuitive to most traditional VCs. They will not invest in a project that is open source in the first place.

974
01:33:40.320 --> 01:33:42.580
And and we even go further than that, encourage

975
01:33:42.880 --> 01:33:46.100
encourage people. So we were having trouble receiving donations.

976
01:33:46.800 --> 01:33:49.060
I saw a bunch of people that still needed funding,

977
01:33:51.165 --> 01:33:52.225
and the

978
01:33:52.605 --> 01:33:54.765
equity landscape was actually a lot more.

979
01:33:55.245 --> 01:34:01.100
There was a lot more interest, of course. Like, people are more willing to give you money if they get shares of a company rather than a donation. Right?

980
01:34:01.560 --> 01:34:04.699
As much as people wanna talk, like, really grand things,

981
01:34:06.565 --> 01:34:11.465
it's a lot harder getting someone to donate than it is to get someone to invest, and both are incredibly difficult.

982
01:34:12.324 --> 01:34:13.844
So 1031, we go

983
01:34:14.870 --> 01:34:16.730
we raise and deploy a $125,000,000

984
01:34:17.430 --> 01:34:19.210
across 36 companies in the space,

985
01:34:20.230 --> 01:34:22.250
over the course of the next 3 years.

986
01:34:22.555 --> 01:34:27.135
OpenSats still struggling, trying to get people to get interested,

987
01:34:27.835 --> 01:34:28.335
whatnot.

988
01:34:30.635 --> 01:34:31.855
Nostrika happens.

989
01:34:33.030 --> 01:34:34.170
Nostrika happens,

990
01:34:34.790 --> 01:34:40.969
and at this point, Jack had already you know, he had, like, sent out some individual grants. Right? He had, like, the original Noster

991
01:34:41.935 --> 01:34:46.034
Fund where he gave it to, like, Fiat Jaff, and I think you were part of that as well.

992
01:34:48.015 --> 01:34:48.515
And

993
01:34:49.340 --> 01:34:51.920
it comes out of Nostrika, and it's it's,

994
01:34:53.020 --> 01:34:55.600
NVK comes to me and goes, Jack really wants

995
01:34:56.225 --> 01:34:58.085
to, like, start up, like, a proper

996
01:34:58.865 --> 01:34:59.925
Noster Foundation,

997
01:35:00.545 --> 01:35:03.765
like, to to to do this in a more sustainable way.

998
01:35:05.360 --> 01:35:18.905
And I said I said and they wanted my advice. Oh, you guys have been running open SaaS for 2 years. Like, what's your advice? Whatever. I was like, don't fucking do it. It's horrible. It's miserable. It's thankless. No one wants to donate. Like, we're, like, swamped over here.

999
01:35:19.285 --> 01:35:22.970
And I got on the phone with Jack, and I was like, maybe OpenSats

1000
01:35:24.070 --> 01:35:31.130
maybe OpenSats can do it. And if if OpenSats is gonna do it, we're gonna need actually someone full time to, like, run it properly.

1001
01:35:33.365 --> 01:35:38.025
And and that's when this idea of the operations fund was born. This idea of a separate fund,

1002
01:35:39.090 --> 01:35:45.270
that if you donate to that, that goes to operations, and that pays a full time employee and a couple part time employees.

1003
01:35:45.650 --> 01:35:47.909
Then it was like, who's gonna be the full time employee?

1004
01:35:48.455 --> 01:36:00.190
So I asked Jack. I was like, will will you if we create an operations fund, will you donate to the operations fund? And then I said to Ben and the rest of the board, I was like, are we cool with this? We're still a 100% pastor if you donate to the general fund.

1005
01:36:01.050 --> 01:36:04.750
But if you donate to the operations fund, then it goes to operations costs.

1006
01:36:05.815 --> 01:36:07.355
And everyone was aligned,

1007
01:36:08.055 --> 01:36:08.555
and

1008
01:36:09.175 --> 01:36:15.090
we pulled and so I was like, we gotta ask Gigi. Like, Gigi was, like, born to to run this fucking ship.

1009
01:36:15.550 --> 01:36:21.969
So then we're, like, wrestling with Gigi. We're like, Gigi, you know, come join us. You know, come join us as we run this crazy

1010
01:36:22.455 --> 01:36:25.114
thing. We were, like, neck deep in and

1011
01:36:25.494 --> 01:36:29.514
and in over our in over our skis and have no idea what the fuck to do.

1012
01:36:30.790 --> 01:36:33.130
Jack agrees to give a small portion

1013
01:36:33.430 --> 01:36:40.345
of his donation to the operations fund, then agrees to give an additional to to double his donation. So instead of just, it's like,

1014
01:36:40.885 --> 01:36:42.745
here's, you know, 5,000,000 for Bitcoin,

1015
01:36:43.685 --> 01:36:44.185
5,000,000,

1016
01:36:44.645 --> 01:36:45.705
5,000,000 for,

1017
01:36:46.405 --> 01:36:52.970
and 250 I think it was, like, 250 for the operations fund to pay for Gigi salary and a couple part time people.

1018
01:36:53.990 --> 01:37:01.715
And then all of a sudden, we're off to the races. That's where OpenSats, like, really became OpenSats. Like, we were really nothing up until that point.

1019
01:37:02.415 --> 01:37:05.555
And since then, we provided over a 100 grants.

1020
01:37:06.130 --> 01:37:10.470
We've received over 600 applications. Like, to me, like, Open Sats is, like,

1021
01:37:11.730 --> 01:37:24.935
this crazy project. Like, I don't think this has ever been attempted before at this scale, and I don't think it'd it'd be possible without Bitcoin. Like, every the whole treasury is held in multisig Bitcoin. The payouts are all in Bitcoin. We do every month. We're sending out

1022
01:37:25.460 --> 01:37:26.440
90 payments,

1023
01:37:27.220 --> 01:37:28.760
in Bitcoin, like, $600,000

1024
01:37:29.380 --> 01:37:33.365
a month that are going out to open source contributors around the world.

1025
01:37:34.405 --> 01:37:37.065
Obviously, Gigi takes it incredibly seriously,

1026
01:37:38.725 --> 01:37:44.830
and and has so much passion, and he's getting burnt out even as it is. And we're we're getting fucking crushed.

1027
01:37:45.290 --> 01:37:46.590
And at the same time,

1028
01:37:47.530 --> 01:37:58.015
donations are still you know, they're kinda trickling in. We just got a big donation from the Reynolds Foundation. They're they donated a $1,000,000, which is the founder of Jane Street's Foundation.

1029
01:37:59.380 --> 01:38:01.080
Bitwise gave a big commitment,

1030
01:38:01.940 --> 01:38:03.800
a multiyear, 10 year commitment.

1031
01:38:04.580 --> 01:38:07.635
And we're trying to ramp it up, and we're trying this was, like, a year ago.

1032
01:38:08.434 --> 01:38:11.574
Like, that part of the story was a year ago is when Gigi joined.

1033
01:38:13.235 --> 01:38:14.855
And I will just say that

1034
01:38:15.650 --> 01:38:19.430
we wanna be the best we can possibly be. Oh, also, everything

1035
01:38:19.730 --> 01:38:24.710
like, Gigi transformed our organization. Like, everything is done in a private GitHub repo.

1036
01:38:25.715 --> 01:38:31.735
Every review process, every vote, everything is all there's a massive audit trail there.

1037
01:38:32.435 --> 01:38:40.070
Everyone can see everyone internal of the organization can see it. If we ever need to be, like, externally audited, all that information's there. If there's anything,

1038
01:38:41.145 --> 01:38:44.285
amiss or anything, it's it's all fucking there.

1039
01:38:44.665 --> 01:38:46.844
Of course, it's not signed because it's GitHub,

1040
01:38:47.225 --> 01:38:47.725
but,

1041
01:38:50.110 --> 01:38:51.390
yeah, it's all there.

1042
01:38:51.870 --> 01:38:57.330
And then on top of that, we came up with this idea of a noster committee, which is the idea of, like,

1043
01:38:57.655 --> 01:39:07.690
okay. Like, how do we scale this thing? OpenSAT should be more than just Bitcoin. OpenSAT should be Bitcoin for open source contributors of all different tangential kind of things starting with

1044
01:39:07.990 --> 01:39:10.490
Noster. And this idea of, like, a rotating

1045
01:39:10.950 --> 01:39:14.970
committee based approach for different concepts, whether that's Lightning or Noster

1046
01:39:16.195 --> 01:39:17.655
or Bitcoin Core

1047
01:39:18.115 --> 01:39:26.590
or maybe potentially in the future, like AI stuff or stuff like that. Right? And you you take a committee of experts that are peers in the area,

1048
01:39:27.050 --> 01:39:32.395
and you have them do the initial review and the dish initial recommendations, and then the board

1049
01:39:33.035 --> 01:39:40.095
does their review on top of that so you can try and scale it out. And so, like, our Nasser committee has, like, Fiat Jaff on it. It has Pablo on it. It has hollibot

1050
01:39:40.475 --> 01:39:42.730
on it. Daniele, who's the

1051
01:39:43.190 --> 01:39:44.090
one of the maintainers,

1052
01:39:44.550 --> 01:39:46.809
one of the contributors to gossip.

1053
01:39:47.829 --> 01:39:51.675
And they that allows us to try and scale this thing

1054
01:39:52.855 --> 01:39:57.675
above and beyond where we currently are, because obviously the board members are Bitcoiners first.

1055
01:39:59.600 --> 01:40:00.340
So, anyway,

1056
01:40:00.719 --> 01:40:04.100
this is my that's my big background of open stats from beginning

1057
01:40:04.800 --> 01:40:05.460
to today.

1058
01:40:06.800 --> 01:40:08.500
We wanna improve it significantly.

1059
01:40:10.284 --> 01:40:13.344
We wanna keep iterating. I think feedback is really important.

1060
01:40:13.885 --> 01:40:20.850
But I will just reiterate that I just don't think anything of this scale has been done before. I don't think any kind of organization has been set up

1061
01:40:21.310 --> 01:40:26.210
to to be as transparent as as OpenSets is. And and can we be more transparent? Sure.

1062
01:40:26.715 --> 01:40:30.815
And there's this there's tray it's trade offs all the way down on everything.

1063
01:40:31.275 --> 01:40:32.735
And the ideal situation

1064
01:40:34.320 --> 01:40:40.820
is people hopefully, Zaps unlock this. Right? That people just donate donate to open source contributors directly.

1065
01:40:41.920 --> 01:40:42.420
That

1066
01:40:43.135 --> 01:40:44.514
open source contributors

1067
01:40:45.215 --> 01:40:48.994
have ethical business models where they can monetize while still keeping open source

1068
01:40:49.990 --> 01:40:56.410
because of Bitcoin as a funding mechanism. I think and once again, I will say the Sparrow wallet, I think, is, like, this, like, primo example of it.

1069
01:40:57.110 --> 01:40:59.735
Sparrow has never taken VC money and has never taken

1070
01:41:01.255 --> 01:41:03.915
grant money, and he has a sustainable income.

1071
01:41:05.815 --> 01:41:13.469
And then last but not least, in that middle ground, in the short term, it'd be great if there's more organizations. Right? Like, I think HRF has been doing really good work.

1072
01:41:14.330 --> 01:41:19.195
I was really happy to see that they gave you a grant as in addition to OpenSats' grant.

1073
01:41:20.554 --> 01:41:24.574
Like, I've more of that is better for the short term, but, like, really, I like the direct.

1074
01:41:24.875 --> 01:41:28.655
If we can do more of the direct, that would be that would be best case scenario.

1075
01:41:30.890 --> 01:41:33.310
Oh, yeah. But, like, different things. Right? Like,

1076
01:41:35.450 --> 01:41:37.070
I don't know if

1077
01:41:38.165 --> 01:41:40.985
may like, making the votes public makes sense,

1078
01:41:41.605 --> 01:41:49.659
because there's a reason why there's secret ballots and regular elections and stuff. And I there's, like, a whole argument that the reason congress is so corrupt

1079
01:41:50.040 --> 01:41:57.155
is because the special interests know exactly how they vote. So if they pay you off, they expect you to vote a certain way, and they can pressure you in a certain way.

1080
01:41:57.615 --> 01:41:59.055
So that's like, I'm not

1081
01:41:59.695 --> 01:42:04.450
I I don't wanna make the wrong decision, and we're open to feedback, and we're iterating.

1082
01:42:05.390 --> 01:42:06.290
Amount sizes,

1083
01:42:07.310 --> 01:42:08.850
I don't really feel that comfortable

1084
01:42:09.230 --> 01:42:12.515
saying exactly I mean, I know you said you like,

1085
01:42:12.895 --> 01:42:17.155
grant recipients can obviously publicly disclose how much they receive if they want to.

1086
01:42:17.535 --> 01:42:19.460
I think you're the only one that ever has.

1087
01:42:20.020 --> 01:42:25.480
So, obviously, of our a 100 plus grant received recipients, they would prefer that they don't

1088
01:42:25.860 --> 01:42:34.405
have their information out there. So how do we find a middle ground there? Like, try we released a whole transparency report at the end of the year that tried to, like, mix them all together.

1089
01:42:34.705 --> 01:42:36.245
And then last but not least,

1090
01:42:38.469 --> 01:42:39.530
I love Milan.

1091
01:42:39.909 --> 01:42:40.889
I love primal.

1092
01:42:41.909 --> 01:42:47.130
I think he's an amazing builder in the space. 1031 did invest. We did invest before open sats

1093
01:42:48.295 --> 01:42:59.920
provided any kind of path. I think in a post Open Sats world, it's like primal is an exact example of somewhere where, like, maybe it doesn't even go for VC funding because you can go to an open sats as a seed funding.

1094
01:43:00.700 --> 01:43:02.080
It was before that.

1095
01:43:02.540 --> 01:43:03.840
It's completely false.

1096
01:43:05.185 --> 01:43:08.085
I've voted yes and approved grants for, like, 21,

1097
01:43:08.705 --> 01:43:10.645
quote, unquote, competitors to Primal.

1098
01:43:11.060 --> 01:43:11.500
I

1099
01:43:11.940 --> 01:43:14.680
there's not if those if those GitHub,

1100
01:43:15.380 --> 01:43:20.360
audit trails or whatever ever get leaked or shared or whatever, there's absolutely nothing I'm mining from there.

1101
01:43:21.605 --> 01:43:22.105
And,

1102
01:43:24.005 --> 01:43:27.385
Yeah. I guess I guess that was a very, very long winded,

1103
01:43:28.680 --> 01:43:29.180
explanation,

1104
01:43:29.560 --> 01:43:30.060
context.

1105
01:43:32.760 --> 01:43:36.700
No. And that's and that's, like, and that's just a test to like, you guys are obviously,

1106
01:43:37.245 --> 01:43:41.025
you know, you you as open as you possibly can be. Right? Obviously, I'm not suggesting

1107
01:43:41.565 --> 01:43:44.465
that you, you release who votes on what or,

1108
01:43:45.190 --> 01:43:46.170
or release numbers.

1109
01:43:46.550 --> 01:44:02.025
But I think a lot of the times, like, even just like the Nostra case, it's it's such a tight knit community. I think this kind of, like, a like, it's in some sense where we wanna leverage these experts, but it's also they're all they're all building competing things. So if you're applying Yeah. What's the solution? I I don't

1110
01:44:03.290 --> 01:44:05.710
like, there's no one without bias that is

1111
01:44:06.409 --> 01:44:26.380
there's conflicts everywhere. Right? And you try and manage the conflicts and keep So it's like keep people honest. You have this mechanism for, like, conflict, but, like, everyone on that committee, it sounds like it's conflict because of any field Who's the not who's, like, someone who, like, can assess and review Nastor projects that doesn't have a perceived conflict? It seems like yeah. That's what I'm saying. It seems like an impossible

1112
01:44:26.760 --> 01:44:33.425
possible problem. Just and maybe that's more of an issue with Noster in general because What's everything, I think? I mean, like, who are the

1113
01:44:34.305 --> 01:44:37.605
like, who are who are Bitcoin specialists that don't have conflicts?

1114
01:44:38.940 --> 01:44:40.400
Yeah. Like, maybe if you're,

1115
01:44:40.700 --> 01:44:45.680
like, not building a com like, a product that you're selling, like, if you're just, like, an open source contributor,

1116
01:44:47.125 --> 01:44:55.545
you know? I know. So I just like that is a that I think that is to the core of the issue what a lot of people were, like, rumbling about, and I just simply, like, threw my thing. I'm like, oh, yeah. It might be an issue.

1117
01:44:56.060 --> 01:45:17.560
I'm not like it was it was not an attempt to, like, trash you guys or anything, but it was just something I've been noticing that I've been and I just don't want it to be, like, this, like, negative or so maybe I'm I'm at this point now. I'm just like, okay. I'm gonna stop talking about it because, obviously, it's a very touchy subject, but I still think yeah. I think the transparency, like, having someone at least show that, you know, who is involved. Like, right now, we don't even know who's involved. Yeah. I like that feedback.

1118
01:45:18.179 --> 01:45:22.360
And just like that little things like that. I think that And, also, we've been bad at giving feedback

1119
01:45:23.225 --> 01:45:23.805
to nonapproved

1120
01:45:24.185 --> 01:45:24.685
people.

1121
01:45:25.705 --> 01:45:26.685
We're just overworked.

1122
01:45:27.065 --> 01:45:27.725
I mean,

1123
01:45:28.265 --> 01:45:32.560
like I said, it's the only person who's on full time salary is Gigi,

1124
01:45:33.100 --> 01:45:39.715
and then he has a couple part time people underneath him. And we're that's relatively recent. Like, we're trying to scale it up,

1125
01:45:40.355 --> 01:45:42.614
in terms of giving people, like, proper feedback.

1126
01:45:43.235 --> 01:45:44.614
But I would add, like,

1127
01:45:45.315 --> 01:45:48.110
there's another element here. Like, people don't realize, like

1128
01:45:48.670 --> 01:45:52.929
like, this shit is fucking hard. Like, it is really, really difficult.

1129
01:45:53.389 --> 01:46:01.605
It is it is essentially a full time job for me and Ben, and we're not getting paid a cent. Our board contributes a ton of their time,

1130
01:46:02.945 --> 01:46:11.610
and they're not getting paid a cent. I think most people in the community would be okay with, like, you guys being paid. Like, it's not like, the whole passionate thing is, like, it's great, and that's, like, honorable, but,

1131
01:46:11.995 --> 01:46:26.950
you know, this is a bigger thing. I don't know about that. I feel like it'd be everyone would be okay if you're getting paid as long as, like I don't know. I think that's that's not And so then we're gonna are we gonna have debates about how much, we should get paid? Like, I don't know if that I think that I think there's something special about,

1132
01:46:28.435 --> 01:46:33.094
knowing that if you provide a 100% if you provide donations to the general fund

1133
01:46:33.395 --> 01:46:36.455
or the Noster Fund, a 100% goes to open source contributors.

1134
01:46:36.850 --> 01:46:48.045
We just I think most people just want it to run efficiently. We don't want you guys, like, pulling your hair out and, like, going crazy. We're trying to scale that part up, and that's why we're bringing in, like, the different part time people under Gigi.

1135
01:46:49.065 --> 01:46:54.420
And we need to, like, get the feedback out. But I will also add, there's another thing here that is, like, really difficult,

1136
01:46:56.239 --> 01:46:59.700
that is really difficult and that people should be aware of it and

1137
01:47:00.239 --> 01:47:01.300
keep it in mind.

1138
01:47:03.125 --> 01:47:05.304
I think open discussion is incredibly important.

1139
01:47:05.605 --> 01:47:08.744
I like I said, I I try and build everything in the open.

1140
01:47:10.460 --> 01:47:18.565
Like, even 10/31 is, like, is a very open book, 10/31. Like, you know, every company that we're invested in, a lot of a lot of funds aren't like that.

1141
01:47:20.245 --> 01:47:25.864
I we talk about I talk about it on dispatch all the time, talk about Robert Hall recap all the time every week.

1142
01:47:27.050 --> 01:47:29.389
Obviously, both of those are unedited live shows.

1143
01:47:30.090 --> 01:47:35.805
Dispatch has an interactive live chat. I'm very responsive on Nastra. I used to be very responsive on Twitter before I deleted my

1144
01:47:36.365 --> 01:47:38.705
Twitter account. But something people don't keep in mind

1145
01:47:39.405 --> 01:47:41.825
is, first of all, raising money is really difficult.

1146
01:47:42.980 --> 01:47:45.480
Whether that's equity money through 1031

1147
01:47:45.860 --> 01:47:51.560
or whether that's open open source. And keep in mind, like, Dorsey's commitment of 10,000,000 was huge.

1148
01:47:53.114 --> 01:47:58.735
The Reynolds Foundation, $1,000,000 commitment is huge. Bitwise's future potential commitment could be big.

1149
01:47:59.870 --> 01:48:04.450
Pales in comparison to VC money. Right? It's like negligible money compared to

1150
01:48:04.910 --> 01:48:05.810
the 125,000,000

1151
01:48:06.270 --> 01:48:07.970
we've deployed in 10/31.

1152
01:48:08.505 --> 01:48:14.445
And then if you compare that to shitcoin funds and, like, traditional VC funds, like, 1,000,000,000 and 1,000,000,000 and 1,000,000,000 of dollars.

1153
01:48:16.025 --> 01:48:16.525
But

1154
01:48:16.970 --> 01:48:19.390
one thing that I did not consider

1155
01:48:21.050 --> 01:48:27.135
until after I've done this thing and I look. I want as many I hope that more open sats get created.

1156
01:48:27.675 --> 01:48:28.975
I hope, you know,

1157
01:48:29.515 --> 01:48:34.975
more, you know, more avenues for funding across the board get created, whether that's in VC land or

1158
01:48:35.780 --> 01:48:39.560
open source, like, grant side, more grant makers.

1159
01:48:40.740 --> 01:48:46.905
Once you get involved in money, man, and you're you're you're giving people money and people are asking for money,

1160
01:48:48.245 --> 01:48:54.090
the enemies start adding up really quick. Like, we have we we had 600 applications to OpenSats.

1161
01:48:54.790 --> 01:48:57.050
We provided a 100 over a 100.

1162
01:48:57.645 --> 01:49:02.945
There's 500 people out there that wish they got money or wish they got more money,

1163
01:49:03.645 --> 01:49:15.040
and it's really disheartening. There's a lot of there's a lot of just lies that come out that people just don't like you, and they just make up shit. And it muddies the water. It makes the open discussion way more difficult.

1164
01:49:15.775 --> 01:49:26.250
And I feel like people don't people don't really appreciate that, and it's gonna get worse. I know it's gonna get worse. And it's fine because I'm not here for a popularity contest. Like, I just don't really care. But,

1165
01:49:26.630 --> 01:49:44.820
I mean, it does hurt. A lot of times it hurts. But I'm I'm gonna deal with it. I'm gonna do the hard fucking things. But it's important to realize, like, as more applications come in, not everyone's gonna get approved, and people aren't gonna be happy about it. And it makes it muddies the whole water, and it makes it a lot more difficult. Yeah. I just think that,

1166
01:49:46.100 --> 01:49:52.225
yeah, I think that's why, like, the rejection reason is very important. Otherwise, people are gonna literally just gonna speculate and, like, make up crazy reasons,

1167
01:49:52.765 --> 01:49:56.865
and, like, conspiracy theories Yeah. Which you have a reason to My point is they're gonna do it anyway.

1168
01:49:57.369 --> 01:50:13.245
Yeah. Even with a reason or not. But It doesn't matter. I'm I'm gonna I'm gonna constantly have the discussion over and over again. We're gonna try and be more transparent. We're gonna try and do feedback. People are gonna say I'm not answering questions. They're gonna do this. People are gonna act in bad faith. People are gonna act in good faith. Right? And it's it just

1169
01:50:14.680 --> 01:50:15.500
this is why

1170
01:50:16.120 --> 01:50:17.100
if zaps work,

1171
01:50:17.880 --> 01:50:19.500
it'd be fucking huge. But

1172
01:50:20.760 --> 01:50:56.630
if they do work, it's still way too early. Even something like Domus Purple. Once again, like, I would love to see Domus Purple make you guys super sustainable, and I don't wanna discourage it. But, also, like, people should be reasonable on on on what they think your revenue is on that kind of Yeah. And, like, I'm not I'm and I'm not I can't run Domus on Domus Pro right now. It's like me Exactly. So it's like, yes. We'll obviously rely on grants. And so I I think I made a post post that was like, you know, we can't rely on grants. What I really meant was I can't solely rely on grants. You know? Yeah. People should be making the effort to, like, try to build a business model. This is something you said as well. I mean, I do it to heart, which is, like, you know, Open SaaS is not a business model.

1173
01:50:57.090 --> 01:51:08.130
Yeah. So we shouldn't be relying on it. And, like and if you feel like you're betting all your, you know, your things on just this one system, it's like, well, yeah, you it's you're gonna get burned, and, you know, we should be looking at other,

1174
01:51:08.750 --> 01:51:33.204
other solutions. But, ultimately, it just comes down to users. Like, we just need more users. If we have more users app, any more users subscribing to Yeah. Apps 100%. I think we're at, like, 10000 to 20000 active users, which is very, very small. I think our threads has, like, 1,000,000. Like, Mastodon has, like, tens of 1,000,000. Like, I mean but I don't know. So we just need to grow that user base, and I don't know I don't know how to do that. I think everyone should be focusing on different ways of bringing new people on board and different experiences.

1175
01:51:33.905 --> 01:51:37.970
And then it that'll help. But until then, like, obviously, we're relying on on the system. And,

1176
01:51:38.450 --> 01:51:52.845
but, yeah, that's why I appreciate, like, obviously, going through that whole thing and explaining it because I think that's what that's what all people want. They just wanna know the thought process that they wanna see, like you know? And I think you're doing a good job at that, and, and and people really we really appreciate, the openness you guys have been doing. So

1177
01:51:54.500 --> 01:51:58.840
Awesome. Well, I appreciate that. It's a tough it's all of this is super hard.

1178
01:52:01.545 --> 01:52:03.804
I sometimes I still can't even believe,

1179
01:52:04.184 --> 01:52:04.764
you know,

1180
01:52:07.625 --> 01:52:11.699
that it's that that we've even gotten this far. You know? It's,

1181
01:52:14.079 --> 01:52:26.910
it's not crazy. There's there's no is unprecedented. There's no open source funding model that's, like like, maybe, like, the Mozilla Foundation or some other huge but it's it's pretty rare that you just get, like like, all this money handed out for

1182
01:52:27.290 --> 01:52:28.330
for free. So,

1183
01:52:28.810 --> 01:52:39.485
yeah, maybe, I should be less critical and and more appreciative. I think that's something I should I should definitely, But like I said, all feedback. Like, I need we we need to improve. We need to make it better.

1184
01:52:40.505 --> 01:52:44.940
And, like, we haven't even we're, like, year 1, basically, basically, like I said, of any kind of substantial size. Like,

1185
01:52:46.040 --> 01:52:49.240
we wanna have a some of these grants are long term support grants, which are, like, 2 year terms.

1186
01:52:53.465 --> 01:53:11.050
Some of them are gonna wanna be renewed whether they're LTS or not. And there's just, like, a progress report that happens and then, like, a rereview process. Like, all of this shit. Like, we gotta, like, we gotta figure it out. We gotta process size it. We gotta make it as efficient as possible. We have to make it as fair as possible.

1187
01:53:11.755 --> 01:53:13.695
There's, like, a lot of unsolved problems.

1188
01:53:14.235 --> 01:53:14.735
And,

1189
01:53:16.554 --> 01:53:18.015
particularly grant recipients

1190
01:53:18.715 --> 01:53:20.815
are going to be our key to that process,

1191
01:53:21.340 --> 01:53:22.719
and you are a grant recipient.

1192
01:53:23.659 --> 01:53:28.559
Like, helping us improve that process is really, really, really helpful and important.

1193
01:53:29.345 --> 01:53:40.470
So I'm not trying to discourage that, I guess, is what I'm trying to say. Yeah. And, obviously, you know, Open SaaS is such a pivotal has of of really high and pivotal importance to the success of Nasr at this point. It's it's really, you know,

1194
01:53:40.930 --> 01:53:45.905
where these funds are allocated can lead to, like, really, you know, important things being built.

1195
01:53:46.465 --> 01:53:56.020
And I just don't I just don't want it to be I just want it I just want it to succeed, really. So Yeah. Any any criticism that seems, like, kinda harsh, it's usually just me just, like, trying to get feedback in my way, which isn't always

1196
01:53:56.960 --> 01:53:58.180
sound very nice. But,

1197
01:53:58.760 --> 01:53:59.380
I'm Well

1198
01:54:00.000 --> 01:54:03.565
well, thanks for having the hard discussion. I, you know, I don't think

1199
01:54:04.125 --> 01:54:05.425
either of us really enjoy

1200
01:54:07.085 --> 01:54:08.625
enjoy going through all of that.

1201
01:54:09.725 --> 01:54:19.900
But I But it's important. I hope everyone viewing watching this is like, you know, I hope it was spicy enough. I was just trying to pump your viewership of your show, really. Yeah. That's always all about it.

1202
01:54:21.175 --> 01:54:23.755
At the end of the day, everyone's just engagement horror.

1203
01:54:25.975 --> 01:54:27.835
I really enjoyed the Domus portion.

1204
01:54:28.455 --> 01:54:29.515
I'm glad we got

1205
01:54:30.530 --> 01:54:31.590
got catch up again.

1206
01:54:32.050 --> 01:54:33.270
It had been a minute.

1207
01:54:35.570 --> 01:54:43.335
We should make them more regular. I would love to have you. Obviously, the show is, like, quickly having more and more of an Oster focus, so I would love to have you on more often.

1208
01:54:44.434 --> 01:54:48.480
For sure. Yeah. I mean, it's always, it's always fun coming on. You're not I mean,

1209
01:54:48.880 --> 01:55:01.065
you're, like, you're legit. Like, you're, like, you've been around for a long time, and you you'd know most people in this space. And you have such a I think it's it's great talking to you about all these different aspects of Bitcoin and Asher coming together. And

1210
01:55:01.445 --> 01:55:08.040
so, yeah, I've I've always appreciated it, and, it's been a lot of fun. Awesome. I wanna get Elsad on too. He's awesome.

1211
01:55:09.699 --> 01:55:11.239
Yeah. I gotta get him on.

1212
01:55:12.364 --> 01:55:12.864
Awesome.

1213
01:55:13.165 --> 01:55:15.185
Do you have any final thoughts before we wrap?

1214
01:55:16.685 --> 01:55:17.585
Yeah. I mean,

1215
01:55:19.510 --> 01:55:20.490
I think, obviously,

1216
01:55:21.350 --> 01:55:30.715
we're a couple years a year and a half into this thing. And, what we've sometimes, it's good to look back at all the shit that's we've accomplished. And sometimes we beat ourselves up over,

1217
01:55:31.015 --> 01:55:40.320
you know, whether things aren't going fast enough or it's going too fast or, you know, we're not as successful. But, you know, I I think what the most important thing is we just not forget our our values, like, why we're doing this. And,

1218
01:55:41.340 --> 01:55:45.200
and even if we have these little invites or even if we call them fights,

1219
01:55:45.765 --> 01:55:47.865
but I think everyone just really just cares

1220
01:55:48.245 --> 01:55:49.545
about this project and

1221
01:55:49.845 --> 01:56:23.015
and building this out just so more and more people can use it. And, I just want I think just hope everyone keeps that in mind and and think I don't think there's gonna be, like, a a quick thing, or it it could be a slow thing like Bitcoin. Bitcoin took Bitcoin, like, 10 years before before even it started hit mainstream. And now it's starting to I mean, Taylor Swift hasn't, you know, come out in love of saying that she supports Bitcoin, but, you know, we're getting there. So, anyway, so I just keep that in mind, and, I think what we're doing I think we're on a good pace, and, it's been a blast of building this thing when and everyone here on the chat who'd been experience experiencing it with us. It's, appreciate everyone who's,

1222
01:56:23.495 --> 01:56:25.594
been here for the ride, and let's keep on going.

1223
01:56:26.695 --> 01:56:28.920
Damn right. I appreciate you, Will.

1224
01:56:30.679 --> 01:56:31.980
Gotta keep pushing forward.

1225
01:56:33.160 --> 01:56:33.660
Freaks,

1226
01:56:34.440 --> 01:56:38.175
thank you to those who support the show. You know dispatch is,

1227
01:56:38.875 --> 01:56:40.655
audience funded. We don't have ads,

1228
01:56:41.514 --> 01:56:42.335
or sponsors.

1229
01:56:43.034 --> 01:56:55.655
So you guys keep it going, and it really does mean a lot. As always, though, if you donate through podcasting 2 point o apps like Fountain and Breeze, 5% goes to OpenSats, which is pretty cool. Hopefully, more podcasts will start doing that. We

1230
01:56:56.994 --> 01:56:59.175
have our biggest supporters of the week,

1231
01:56:59.715 --> 01:57:02.215
scrolling on the bottom of our feed now,

1232
01:57:03.510 --> 01:57:06.970
which was a idea from a reviewer, which I thought was pretty great.

1233
01:57:07.590 --> 01:57:08.570
At came

1234
01:57:09.030 --> 01:57:10.010
in with the

1235
01:57:10.525 --> 01:57:14.545
the biggest donation this week. We have 50,000 sets. So thank you, Freak.

1236
01:57:16.204 --> 01:57:17.425
Some other big supporters,

1237
01:57:18.600 --> 01:57:19.740
include Anon,

1238
01:57:20.520 --> 01:57:23.900
who's just completely anonymous with 21,000 stats. IS MYHC

1239
01:57:24.520 --> 01:57:33.365
with 21,000 stats. Average Gary with 21 1,000 sats, and Max a Webster with 21,000 sats. I merged the podcasting 2.0 and ZapStream,

1240
01:57:34.865 --> 01:57:35.365
donations,

1241
01:57:36.340 --> 01:57:38.760
together in that, by the way, for what it's worth.

1242
01:57:39.539 --> 01:57:42.280
I got a crazy week lined up for us.

1243
01:57:43.300 --> 01:57:45.639
Tomorrow, we have Anna coming from,

1244
01:57:47.285 --> 01:57:47.785
Navalny's

1245
01:57:48.245 --> 01:57:49.705
anti corruption foundation.

1246
01:57:50.245 --> 01:57:53.080
So Navalny was the opposition candidate to Putin that

1247
01:57:53.560 --> 01:57:56.300
got murdered in, a Serbian jail,

1248
01:57:57.160 --> 01:57:59.420
Siberian jail, not a Serbian jail.

1249
01:57:59.880 --> 01:58:14.530
And, they've been using Bitcoin for a long, long time, so we're gonna talk about Bitcoin. So that'll be great. I'm trying to do a Nostra episode and a Bitcoin episode every week if possible. And then next week that's at 1700 UTC tomorrow. And then next week,

1250
01:58:14.910 --> 01:58:15.550
we have,

1251
01:58:17.630 --> 01:58:19.410
I have Kieran coming on,

1252
01:58:20.275 --> 01:58:21.415
web app extraordinaire

1253
01:58:21.875 --> 01:58:23.415
of ZapStream and Snort.

1254
01:58:25.395 --> 01:58:30.250
That's gonna be a 5th 1500 UTC. So 2 hours earlier on Tuesday,

1255
01:58:31.270 --> 01:58:33.530
because it was too late for Kieran otherwise.

1256
01:58:34.070 --> 01:58:39.155
And then I have Ben Ark coming on the day after at 1700 UTC to talk Ellen Bits,

1257
01:58:39.775 --> 01:58:40.915
Nasser, and Bitcoin.

1258
01:58:42.175 --> 01:58:44.560
So that's exciting. I'm pretty excited about those.

1259
01:58:45.280 --> 01:58:47.780
Will, thank you again for joining us.

1260
01:58:48.880 --> 01:58:51.120
This was great. I really do appreciate you, and,

1261
01:58:52.085 --> 01:58:53.305
hopefully, we'll chat soon.

1262
01:58:53.925 --> 01:58:55.705
Cool. Thanks for having me. Cheers.

1263
01:58:59.100 --> 01:59:00.320
Hello, new world.

1264
01:59:00.780 --> 01:59:04.960
All the boys and girls, I got some true stories to tell.

1265
01:59:05.739 --> 01:59:06.880
You're back outside,

1266
01:59:07.625 --> 01:59:09.165
but they still lie.

1267
01:59:12.185 --> 01:59:12.845
Woah. Yeah.

1268
01:59:13.225 --> 01:59:30.105
Take off the Fufu. Take off the couches. Take off the wifi. Take off the money phone. Take off the car loan. Take off the flex and the white loss. Take off the weird ass jewelry. I'm a take in steps, then I'm taking off top off. Take off from fabricate streams and the microwave memes. It's the real world outside. Take off your idols. Take off the round rack. Take off the Cairo.

1269
01:59:44.695 --> 01:59:54.500
Gas up. Take off the new logic. Take off the broken bed. Take off the Take off the shirt now. Take off the doj. Take off the broken bag. Take all that designer bullshit off and what do you have? Bitch,

1270
01:59:55.840 --> 01:59:56.605
you ugly as

1271
01:59:57.405 --> 02:00:00.945
fuck. You out of pocket. 2 ATMs. You stepping to what? You have

1272
02:00:01.245 --> 02:00:03.905
pocket. Who you been? They talk about talk about us.

1273
02:01:51.095 --> 02:01:55.835
Treat you crackers like I'm jitter. Watch out on it all. Oh, you were a biocritic

1274
02:01:56.135 --> 02:01:57.115
betting protocol.

1275
02:02:26.335 --> 02:02:27.315
Love you, freaks.

1276
02:02:27.775 --> 02:02:30.275
That track was n 95 by Kendrick.

1277
02:02:33.280 --> 02:02:35.059
Hopefully, I'll see a bunch of you tomorrow.

1278
02:02:36.559 --> 02:02:38.900
I really do appreciate all the ride or dies you

1279
02:02:40.235 --> 02:02:41.135
share the show.

1280
02:02:41.515 --> 02:02:44.255
Friends and family, join us in the live chat.

1281
02:02:46.075 --> 02:02:47.775
You guys all make it

1282
02:02:48.580 --> 02:02:49.080
very

1283
02:02:49.540 --> 02:02:53.400
special. So thank you all. Love you all. Stay on the Stack Sats. Peace.